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View Full Version : Really good read on the state of the Broncos


Mr.Meanie
11-30-2010, 11:25 AM
I have a feeling this post will get lost in the sea of emotion going on right now, but this article pretty much said everything I have tried to say in my last couple of posts on the calls for firing McD, except a million times better.

It's worth the read, IMO

http://onemanfootball.com/2010/11/29/another-county-heard-from-cuyahoga-that-is/

Champagne Powder
11-30-2010, 11:28 AM
This guy was off to a good start but I stopped reading when he defended the Peyton Hillis trade.

TheReverend
11-30-2010, 11:32 AM
TL ; DR

From what I skimmed it seemed awful

go_broncos
11-30-2010, 11:35 AM
I have a feeling this post will get lost in the sea of emotion going on right now, but this article pretty much said everything I have tried to say in my last couple of posts on the calls for firing McD, except a million times better.

It's worth the read, IMO

http://onemanfootball.com/2010/11/29/another-county-heard-from-cuyahoga-that-is/

--
It seemed like a solid trade for both teams, and the only real objections came from some Broncos fans who had developed man (and woman) crushes on the rare caucasian tailback.
---
Solid trade????..

FantomForce
11-30-2010, 11:37 AM
Rehash, rehash, rehash, post. some ol' sh*t different day, thought I was going to get a fresh perspective. bottom line you have to produce results

Man-Goblin
11-30-2010, 11:37 AM
This guy was off to a good start but I stopped reading when he defended the Peyton Hillis trade.

He didn't defend it, per se. He just pointed out that those criticizing it now weren't exactly screaming from the rooftops when the trade went down.

Which is undeniably true, unless, ya know, you're in denial.

bendog
11-30-2010, 11:38 AM
Then why are they scoring less and giving up more pts than before he got here? The premise that he inherited a bad team and made it better is .... bull****.

Frankly I'd prefer him to stay at least through 2011 and if there's a lockout then through 2012. His 2009 draft fail even impacted 2010, but I could logically accept that two more drafts could yield two quality starters and two decent starters on defence, and then we might be respectable on that side of the ball. And, it's possible that with a year of experience and a healthy Clady, Den might actually be able to run for 4 yds consistently on first or second down.

but if he really ripped his own coaches in front of the owner to appease the guy after the Oak game, then he's lost his staff. He can clean house and hire new guys, but that's not the continuity the internet blogger says keeping him will create. And, i don't think people really believe the videoguy acted on his own.

rugbythug
11-30-2010, 11:40 AM
Good reads

DarkHorse30
11-30-2010, 11:47 AM
OK; I'll stick with the glass-half-full approach again. FRUSTRATING AS HELL....but I'll stick with it, despite occasional protestation.

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned that SD beat Indy worse than they beat us....and Indy was at home.

Also, All of the teams that beat us are OK teams.....we just suck more, and don't know what we're doing most of the time (crap, here I go again...)

My biggest complaint right now is our woeful defense.

Bronco Rob
11-30-2010, 11:52 AM
"Iíve made this point on Twitter a lot lately, but the Broncosí biggest problem has been their unwillingness to lower expectations, and call a rebuilding process what it is. Theyíre the only team in the NFL which isnít allowed a grace period to rebuild, largely because they havenít asked for one. (Thereís also the aforementioned spoiled-fans factor, which has been really bad, too.) In the last 30 years, the Broncos have two seasons of ten or more losses, 10 in 1990, and 11 in 1999. Both of those bad seasons were flanked on either side by seasons of double-digit wins, so they were understood to be aberrations. No rebuilding program was called-for, or happened. No lifelong Broncos fan knows what itís like to go from good, to rebuilding, to good again. Itís never happened in team history, after all, until now."



so true....

Rohirrim
11-30-2010, 11:55 AM
A lot of good points in that post.

yerner
11-30-2010, 12:04 PM
Awful.

bronco militia
11-30-2010, 12:05 PM
"Iíve made this point on Twitter a lot lately, but the Broncosí biggest problem has been their unwillingness to lower expectations, and call a rebuilding process what it is. Theyíre the only team in the NFL which isnít allowed a grace period to rebuild, largely because they havenít asked for one. (Thereís also the aforementioned spoiled-fans factor, which has been really bad, too.) In the last 30 years, the Broncos have two seasons of ten or more losses, 10 in 1990, and 11 in 1999. Both of those bad seasons were flanked on either side by seasons of double-digit wins, so they were understood to be aberrations. No rebuilding program was called-for, or happened. No lifelong Broncos fan knows what itís like to go from good, to rebuilding, to good again. Itís never happened in team history, after all, until now."



so true....

this is exactly why Josh will be fired.

ColoradoDarin
11-30-2010, 12:05 PM
Good quote from the article:

Everybody has noticed that the Broncos have been really successful with scripting plays lately, and that they were extremely successful coming off their bye. A lot of people seem to be struggling to grasp what this means, but it’s very clear and obvious to me. The young players on offense perform at a very high level when they’re comfortable with exactly what they’re supposed to be doing, and they’re confident that they can accomplish the results they’re seeking. This indicates a very important thing; if this group is given time to continue to learn and grow and improve together, they’re going to get to be more consistent, because they’ll all be more comfortable throughout entire games. Nothing will ever be particularly new to them anymore. A few new plays each week will be easily digestable, and the recurring stuff will see more and more consistent proficiency.

I'm not a Ted fan, he's a blowhard who can't stand other blowhards, but he's right on the money here.

DrFate
11-30-2010, 12:06 PM
That was awful. Where can I get my 4 minutes back?

Steve Sewell
11-30-2010, 12:08 PM
I thought it was pretty good, and accurate.

The first paragraph was spot on.

Popps
11-30-2010, 12:12 PM
Pretty funny around here.

If you disagree with it, it's an "awful" article.

If it was another blurb from someone with unnamed sources calling the Broncos cheaters, of course then it would be journalistic excellence.

baja
11-30-2010, 12:13 PM
I had wondered where all the sensible knowledgable Bronco fans had gone now I know. Read the comments following the article.

Thanks for the link. Very good article.

Popps
11-30-2010, 12:16 PM
I had wondered where all the sensible knowledgable Bronco fans had gone now I know. Read the comments following the article.

Thanks for the link. Very good article.

Agree. Going to try to find this guy on twitter.

Love the fan below that said... "don't want your season tickets, give them up... there are plenty of us on that 4 year waiting list."

Awesome.

colonelbeef
11-30-2010, 12:18 PM
Wonderful, you found the only positively spun Broncos article in existence.

This team sucks and has progressively gotten worse. There is no way to spin it.

dbfan21
11-30-2010, 12:18 PM
Pretty solid article. Things are a mess right now in Denver, but I would like to see what McDaniels can do with another year to stock the roster and teach the young players his system.

tsiguy96
11-30-2010, 12:19 PM
funny the people who say its not accurate were not saying taht when this stuff happened. hes arguing that you have HINDSIGHT on your side, which while great, doesnt change the facts for what it was at the time. and at the time, none of you were bitching about these trades. in fact, id say most of you who lambast brady quinn now were calling for him to start in preseason

go_broncos
11-30-2010, 12:20 PM
Pretty solid article. Things are a mess right now in Denver, but I would like to see what McDaniels can do with another year to stock the roster and teach the young players his system.

I was told the same thing last year too..he completly ruined the franchise..
****ing asshole..

epicSocialism4tw
11-30-2010, 12:21 PM
He didn't defend it, per se. He just pointed out that those criticizing it now weren't exactly screaming from the rooftops when the trade went down.

Which is undeniably true, unless, ya know, you're in denial.

Thats not true.

There was a huge vocal contingent here who definitely screamed it from the rooftops and were made into a running joke.

Well...the jokes on those who defended the trade.

baja
11-30-2010, 12:23 PM
funny the people who say its not accurate were not saying taht when this stuff happened. hes arguing that you have HINDSIGHT on your side, which while great, doesnt change the facts for what it was at the time. and at the time, none of you were b****ing about these trades. in fact, id say most of you who lambast brady quinn now were calling for him to start in preseason

The Om has become the place for the instant gratifation fan.

TJ should rename this place the 'Near-sighted Pony Fan'

yerner
11-30-2010, 12:26 PM
It's awful because it dismissed the fact that Mcdaniels can't seem to motivate his players to give a consistent concentrated effort every week. Why can't I judge him on that? I'm not saying he has to win every game or even be .500. But these guys don't play hard very often and that tells me all I need to know.

Grumps
11-30-2010, 12:29 PM
:kubiak:

Tombstone RJ
11-30-2010, 12:29 PM
I have a feeling this post will get lost in the sea of emotion going on right now, but this article pretty much said everything I have tried to say in my last couple of posts on the calls for firing McD, except a million times better.

It's worth the read, IMO

http://onemanfootball.com/2010/11/29/another-county-heard-from-cuyahoga-that-is/

Praise the Lord! Someone who get's it!! :thumbs:

Suck it, all you fairweather freak fans.

TonyR
11-30-2010, 12:30 PM
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned that SD beat Indy worse than they beat us....and Indy was at home.

I was pondering the exact same thing Sunday night/Monday morning. Turns out the Chargers are really good and on a roll. Doesn't excuse us getting blown out, but does alter the perspective of anyone thoughtful enough to notice.

Tombstone RJ
11-30-2010, 12:30 PM
Bronco's fans are spoiled, plain and simple. TJ loves letting the spoiled children run the show...

TonyR
11-30-2010, 12:31 PM
Good quote from the article:

I'm not a Ted fan, he's a blowhard who can't stand other blowhards, but he's right on the money here.

That is really interesting. Hadn't thought of it but it's hard to argue with the logic there.

Popps
11-30-2010, 12:32 PM
I was pondering the exact same thing Sunday night/Monday morning. Turns out the Chargers are really good and on a roll. Doesn't excuse us getting blown out, but does alter the perspective of anyone thoughtful enough to notice.

I mentioned it.

Doesn't excuse our performance, but it does shed light on the disparity in talent between us and them... something I also pointed out after that Monday night game.

baja
11-30-2010, 12:32 PM
Bronco's fans are spoiled, plain and simple. TJ loves letting the spoiled children run the show...

They are coming from the same prospective as himself. He thinks we are the dreamers.

bronco militia
11-30-2010, 12:35 PM
no one mentioned spygate on that link. Was that thing written last week?

Bronc62
11-30-2010, 12:35 PM
Another good read out today--but this one taking the anti-McDaniels side. http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Josh-McDaniels-ruining-Denver-Broncos-112910

Tombstone RJ
11-30-2010, 12:37 PM
An anti-Broncos article, get out of town!!

jhns
11-30-2010, 12:39 PM
He didn't defend it, per se. He just pointed out that those criticizing it now weren't exactly screaming from the rooftops when the trade went down.

Which is undeniably true, unless, ya know, you're in denial.

So I take it you didn't visit any Broncos forums this past offseason? I saw a lot of people complaining about his lack of use and even more complain when he was traded. Where were you?

epicSocialism4tw
11-30-2010, 12:39 PM
An anti-Broncos article, get out of town!!

C'mon man...

The Broncos dont exactly look like a franchise on the rise right now. There's going to be frustration.

People will abandon the bandwagon, but who cares? We've seen that happen before.

jhns
11-30-2010, 12:43 PM
funny the people who say its not accurate were not saying taht when this stuff happened. hes arguing that you have HINDSIGHT on your side, which while great, doesnt change the facts for what it was at the time. and at the time, none of you were b****ing about these trades. in fact, id say most of you who lambast brady quinn now were calling for him to start in preseason

Ummm. You spent a lot of time here crying about people that bitched about these trades when they happened. Now you are claiming people didn't complain? Wtf?

I would say it has been very easy to see that McDaniels was going to fail with the way he has run this team. It was easy to see when he started making moves and it is blatantly obvious now.

TonyR
11-30-2010, 12:45 PM
Another good read out today--but this one taking the anti-McDaniels side. http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Josh-McDaniels-ruining-Denver-Broncos-112910

Sadly, hard to argue with most of it. The comparison the Petrino/Falcons debacle (below) is interesting. If this is the end for McD let's hope the Broncos can find a way to rebound like that organization did.

Denver needs to hire a legit new general manager, who will hire the next coach. The Broncos need to follow the Falcons model from a few years back after Bobby Petrino quit like a coward.

jhns
11-30-2010, 12:45 PM
They are coming from the same prospective as himself. He thinks we are the dreamers.

The results sure show you guys are the reasonable ones!

LOL

...

zdoor
11-30-2010, 12:47 PM
I don't think people are wigged out over the record as much as it doesn't appear that we're getting better... Boiling it down to people anti Bronco isn't fair. I'd be ok with another year if we were showing some promise somewhere.. IMO we're not and the constant drama that has surrounded this FO since they were brought in has got to be more than coincidence. There is really only one constant left and the drama continues seemingly endlessly. It's no wonder the team is inconsistent, we're constantly dealing with one distraction or another. If it's ok to move talent because of constant off field behavior effecting performance, then by the same token, the FO has to eventually be held to that standard too. Once or twice is understandable with a first time head coach but I've lost count of the amount of BS that has gone on with the team since McDaniels was was brought in. It's seems to never end...

Rohirrim
11-30-2010, 12:49 PM
I'll be very curious to see what this team looks like next season after we pick up a pass rushing force in the first round, add in Dumervil, and start this Oline with another year under its belt (although I'm not so sure about Barone). Seems to me the worst facet of this team, and the thing that's been killing us all year, is the lack of a pass rush.

ZONA
11-30-2010, 12:50 PM
The Om has become the place for the instant gratifation fan.

TJ should rename this place the 'Near-sighted Pony Fan'

Yep

We all hate losing, it's just that some of us don't act like 13 year old girls who just had their cell phone take away by their parents. OMG, like the Broncos are so not winning right now, it must be the coaches fault, as they cry out in their little girl voices...........hahaha. It used to bother me a little but now, I just don't care about their short sighted opinions anymore. Seems like all they can do is complain about the coach.

Archer81
11-30-2010, 12:51 PM
Considering the nature of the NFL where a team getting a top 5 pick one year can win the division the next I dont see the dire need to fire everyone, blow everything up, riot in the streets and act like spoiled children.

**** happens. The franchise has been fortunate to be relatively stable and successful the last 25+ years. Things change. Roll with it, bad **** doesnt happen forever.

:Broncos:

Tombstone RJ
11-30-2010, 12:53 PM
C'mon man...

The Broncos dont exactly look like a franchise on the rise right now. There's going to be frustration.

People will abandon the bandwagon, but who cares? We've seen that happen before.

you keep buying with the press is selling... sorry, I'm not buying all this crap. I think McD is being crucified by the media because 1. He's the Denver Broncos head coach and 2. He's an easy target.

I still think that the Broncos best option at this point and time is to get McD help., not throw him to the wolves.

But whatever, you keep that lynching rope ready, I know you'll be the first to throw it over the branch and cry for bloody murder.

orangemonkey
11-30-2010, 12:54 PM
Basically, he argues that 1. McD deserves more time to rebuild 2. the Hillis decision was valued right at the time and 3. our Defense lacks talent. Give me a break, if those were the only issues at hand, we wouldn't be having this discussion and Pat Bowlen wouldn't be repeatedly making statements to the media.

He doesn't address McD's inability to make it work with Cutler, Marshall, Hillis, Sheffler, Nolan and other assistant coaches. How about the hiring of a convicted cheater from New England? Or the cataclysmic decline in wins the past two years? Of course there is more. The article neglects to consider the preponderance of issues and instead cherry picks the easy ones.

epicSocialism4tw
11-30-2010, 12:55 PM
you keep buying with the press is selling... sorry, I'm not buying all this crap. I think McD is being crucified by the media because 1. He's the Denver Broncos head coach and 2. He's an easy target.

I still think that the Broncos best option at this point and time is to get McD help., not throw him to the wolves.

But whatever, you keep that lynching rope ready, I know you'll be the first to throw it over the branch and cry for bloody murder.

:rofl:

I didnt give you my opinion. Personally, I would like them to keep McD through next year, bring in a competent GM, bring in some veteran position coaches, trade Orton, crown Tebow, draft DL and build from there.

I understand why people would want to get rid of McD too. And you probably do as well, but youre frustrated with them.

Chris
11-30-2010, 12:56 PM
I have to agree with the author that it's been really disappointing to see the reaction of a lot of fans (this doesn't include people who have rational opinions about going in another direction).

zdoor
11-30-2010, 12:59 PM
you keep buying with the press is selling... sorry, I'm not buying all this crap. I think McD is being crucified by the media because 1. He's the Denver Broncos head coach and 2. He's an easy target.

I still think that the Broncos best option at this point and time is to get McD help., not throw him to the wolves.

But whatever, you keep that lynching rope ready, I know you'll be the first to throw it over the branch and cry for bloody murder.

I could live with keeping McD if they brought in some experienced leadership above him and reigned his responsibilities in. He needs to be held accountable just like anyone else and appearance looks like he his constantly reacting without any plan... I really doubt we're all that appealling right now to an experienced football guy, outside of maybe Elway who has an emotional attachment to the team, in the case where we're keeping McD.

jhns
11-30-2010, 12:59 PM
Yep

We all hate losing, it's just that some of us don't act like 13 year old girls who just had their cell phone take away by their parents. OMG, like the Broncos are so not winning right now, it must be the coaches fault, as they cry out in their little girl voices...........hahaha. It used to bother me a little but now, I just don't care about their short sighted opinions anymore. Seems like all they can do is complain about the coach.

LOL

Why would anyone ever complain about the coach? He has done such a great job and represented the organization so well! Don't you see how much better we are?

Someone should probably talk to that hater Bowlen. He couldn't guarantee McDaniels job and even said he is coaching for it now. The same guy who said Shanahan was coach for life a little before firing him. It sure sounds like he is fed up with Josh to me. Someone should tell him all this instant gratification, hater stuff.

Tombstone RJ
11-30-2010, 01:00 PM
:rofl:

I didnt give you my opinion. Personally, I would like them to keep McD through next year, bring in a competent GM, bring in some veteran position coaches, trade Orton, crown Tebow, draft DL and build from there.

I understand why people would want to get rid of McD too. And you probably do as well, but youre frustrated with them.

You've been a vocal anti-McD poster from the beginning and while I didn't like the hire initially, I liked his fire and his attituded and his passion for the game. IMHO, it does not make sense to wish for McD's demise, it makes more sense to want him to succeed because if he does well, the Broncos do well.

broncswin
11-30-2010, 01:01 PM
my nuts hurt so bad from sitting on this fence...I am more confused than Bowlen right now, with this whole mess.

Archer81
11-30-2010, 01:02 PM
my nuts hurt so bad from sitting on this fence...I am more confused than Bowlen right now, with this whole mess.


That's why God made cups.


:Broncos:

Mile High Shack
11-30-2010, 01:03 PM
You've been a vocal anti-McD poster from the beginning and while I didn't like the hire initially, I liked his fire and his attituded and his passion for the game. IMHO, it does not make sense to wish for McD's demise, it makes more sense to want him to succeed because if he does well, the Broncos do well.

I can't imagine anyone wanting the Broncos to lose just to get rid of Josh

My problem is, we aren't getting better...you can't fire every player, so you fire the coach if you are getting worse

If we show improvement, sure...give him another year, but I have yet to see improvement.

jhns
11-30-2010, 01:04 PM
I could live with keeping McD if they brought in some experienced leadership above him and reigned his responsibilities in. He needs to be held accountable just like anyone else and appearance looks like he his constantly reacting without any plan... I really doubt we're all that appealling right now to an experienced football guy, outside of maybe Elway who has an emotional attachment to the team, in the case where we're keeping McD.

Has this ever happened in the history of the league? I would even be OK with McDaniels remaining the coach if we got a good GM. Some are touting this as a realistic option though and it really doesn't make any sense...

epicSocialism4tw
11-30-2010, 01:05 PM
You've been a vocal anti-McD poster from the beginning and while I didn't like the hire initially, I liked his fire and his attituded and his passion for the game. IMHO, it does not make sense to wish for McD's demise, it makes more sense to want him to succeed because if he does well, the Broncos do well.

I have certainly voiced my displeasure in the multitude of questionable trades and personnel moves (solved by bringing in an experienced GM), and the way the games have been coached...the lack of discipline. If you arent disappointed in those things then you are numb.

However, this is a young coach who is learning from his mistakes. This third year is the penultimate year on his contract. He'll have another offseason and he'll have time to build around Tebow. If we dont see any improvement next season, its time to move on.

Getting rid of McD now would be worse for the franchise because we would have to turn over the roster again to match the incoming coaches system. That could get ugly.

Tombstone RJ
11-30-2010, 01:06 PM
I can't imagine anyone wanting the Broncos to lose just to get rid of Josh

My problem is, we aren't getting better...you can't fire every player, so you fire the coach if you are getting worse

If we show improvement, sure...give him another year, but I have yet to see improvement.

We all want the Broncos to get better, but IMHO, it's going to cause more long term damage to get rid of McD right now. It'd be much more productive to get him some help in the front office.

ZONA
11-30-2010, 01:06 PM
[QUOTE=jhns;3025878]LOL

Why would anyone ever complain about the coach? He has done such a great job and represented the organization so well! Don't you see how much better we are?

I guess we can put you down for one of those guys that thinks rebuilds happen in the blink of an eye.

Someone should probably talk to that hater Bowlen. He couldn't guarantee McDaniels job and even said he is coaching for it now. The same guy who said Shanahan was coach for life a little before firing him. It sure sounds like he is fed up with Josh to me. Someone should tell him all this instant gratification, hater stuff. Why would Bowlen guarantee anything? That really doesn't happen in the NFL, as you so clearly stated with Bowlen firing Shanny after he said he was the coach for Life. So why are you now thinking Josh is gone because Bowlen has said "we're evaluating"? Let me tell ya something, every owner is always evaluating. Every HC is always evaluating players. It's what happens in the NFL.

Crushaholic
11-30-2010, 01:15 PM
--
It seemed like a solid trade for both teams, and the only real objections came from some Broncos fans who had developed man (and woman) crushes on the rare caucasian tailback.
---
Solid trade????..

Did you read why he thought it was a "solid trade"? We needed a backup quarterback very badly, and McDaniels didn't want to use Hillis in his running scheme. Presently, it doesn't look so solid, but it did at the time...

jhns
11-30-2010, 01:16 PM
Why would Bowlen guarantee anything? That really doesn't happen in the NFL, as you so clearly stated with Bowlen firing Shanny after he said he was the coach for Life. So why are you now thinking Josh is gone because Bowlen has said "we're evaluating"? Let me tell ya something, every owner is always evaluating. Every HC is always evaluating players. It's what happens in the NFL.

No, I don't think rebuilds happen overnight. What I do think is that some go about rebuilding the right way and others don't. I do think it is very easy to see if the team is improving or not after two offseasons. I think it is very easy to see that Josh is in way over his head. I think any reasonable person can see this. People wouldn't demand wins right away if they didn't think he was shooting himself in the foot at every turn.

Why wouldn't Bowlen guarantee his job? He did just that a week ago. In fact, I don't ever remember him not fully backing a coach since he has been here. This would be the first time. If you don't see that as a statement, I guess we just won't agree.

Rohirrim
11-30-2010, 01:17 PM
It's strange. This Sunday I am really looking forward to seeing how the team comes out for this game against the Chiefs, and at the same time, I'm afraid of what might happen.

go_broncos
11-30-2010, 01:18 PM
Did you read why he thought it was a "solid trade"? We needed a backup quarterback very badly, and McDaniels didn't want to use Hillis in his running scheme. Presently, it doesn't look so solid, but it did at the time...

Well..I am not sure to whom it looked solid..Most of the fans knew that it is a mistake to trade Hillis.

Inkana7
11-30-2010, 01:20 PM
Well..I am not sure to whom it looked solid..Most of the fans knew that it is a mistake to trade Hillis.

Not so much.

Rabb
11-30-2010, 01:29 PM
Well..I am not sure to whom it looked solid..Most of the fans knew that it is a mistake to trade Hillis.

and most of the analysts thought we clearly got the better end of the deal when it went down

get over it

NYBronco
11-30-2010, 01:31 PM
Good read. Thanks for sharing.

McD needs more time and I'm all for it. Sadly, I think it will be good for this team to get away from "home" for the next three weeks.

epicSocialism4tw
11-30-2010, 01:32 PM
and most of the analysts thought we clearly got the better end of the deal when it went down

get over it

I think he was referring to the earlier post where the guy said that nobody complained about the Hillis trade here when it happened, which we all know is not true.

The Hillis trade response became a running joke here.

What ended up being funny about the Hillis trade is that the irony is on those who vehemently supported it.

bendog
11-30-2010, 01:40 PM
It's strange. This Sunday I am really looking forward to seeing how the team comes out for this game against the Chiefs, and at the same time, I'm afraid of what might happen.

I think the players will come out to play. I'm not sure how McD stands with the defensive assts. But the personnel is so horrible that even good coaching won't have great effect. It's not that the chorfs don't know what Den has. The problem is that the chorfs have a good running attack, Den doesn't defend run well, and they and Haley should be looking for some payback after the running up of the score, and Den won in KC last year (I think though I don't care to look it up) And our offense is one dimensional.

I just don't see how the result is going to be pretty.

Champagne Powder
11-30-2010, 01:41 PM
He didn't defend it, per se. He just pointed out that those criticizing it now weren't exactly screaming from the rooftops when the trade went down.

Which is undeniably true, unless, ya know, you're in denial.

I don't recall many people excited about landing Quinn and his 66.8 QB rating.

bendog
11-30-2010, 01:42 PM
I think he was referring to the earlier post where the guy said that nobody complained about the Hillis trade here when it happened, which we all know is not true.

The Hillis trade response became a running joke here.

What ended up being funny about the Hillis trade is that the irony is on those who vehemently supported it.

Yeah. personally, I didn't see the trade as a big deal at the time. I thought the posters who postulated that "Josh" would be able to make a QB out of Quinn was pretty funny.

epicSocialism4tw
11-30-2010, 01:45 PM
Yeah. personally, I didn't see the trade as a big deal at the time. I thought the posters who postulated that "Josh" would be able to make a QB out of Quinn was pretty funny.

Those same posters who tried to run opponents of the Hillis trade into the ground are the ones trying to ignore their childish response to those who thought it was a bad idea.

I didnt see Hillis as a difference maker, but it was certainly curious to trade him away for a 3rd QB.

bendog
11-30-2010, 01:50 PM
Those same posters who tried to run opponents of the Hillis trade into the ground are the ones trying to ignore their childish response to those who thought it was a bad idea.

I didnt see Hillis as a difference maker, but it was certainly curious to trade him away for a 3rd QB.

I thought Hillis was a shanny guy. And he was. Shanny gave him a shot, and McD came in drafted a rb at 11 (which was a horrible mistake and continues to be a hemmorage on the defense btw) so Hillis was not a happy camper. Not the first time a guy got shipped out of town after proving he was a player. No one knew how good, but that's beside the pt. What was horrible was not addressing defense in a strong defensive draft though at least 1-40 slots and instead drafting at what was possibly the weakest postioin in the draft. That's not just being "unprepared" (which is no excuse in any event) it's being arrogant and stupid.

enjolras
11-30-2010, 01:51 PM
Then why are they scoring less and giving up more pts than before he got here? The premise that he inherited a bad team and made it better is .... bull****.

No he inherited a mediocre team and made it worse. Which is exactly what has to happen (and is basically the entire point the author was trying to make).

I agree with the author almost point for point. I get it, Broncos fans have apparently never seen rebuilding. It's shocking how easily this fan base accepted mediocrity. To fix it you first have to go in reverse. You have to weed out the players who drag you down (here's looking at you Tony Scheffler, Brandon Marshall, and Jay Cutler). You have to bring in young players, and then you have to develop them.

What we're seeing is a young team in development. Seriously, go watch a Jets game from 3 or 4 season ago. Under Mangini:

2006 record: 10-6

2007 Draft highlights: Revis, David Harris (traded all over the board for this)
2007 record: 4-12

2008 Draft Highlights: Gholston, Keller
2008 record: 9-7

2009 Draft Highlights: Sanchez
2009 record: 9-7

That's what rebuilding looks like. That first 10-6 year was a bit of an outlier. A lot of things went the Jets way that year, but first they absolutely cleaned house. The following year the bottom fell out, and that's what rebuilding looks like.

You draft well (I'd argue that the Broncos drafted extraordinarily well last year) and slot in free agents. You have to have that 4-12 year before things truly turn around. We're experiencing 4-12 right now. It sucks, but look at where the Jets are now.

I hope that Bowlen has the sense to stick with it and let this coach and his vision run its course. If we're not contending for a superbowl in 3 years, then we can talk. Until then, we have to experience some pain. This franchise is *finally* trying to break free from mediocrity.

Rabb
11-30-2010, 01:51 PM
If someone asked me last year if I would trade Hillis for Quinn, after seeing Simms play...I would have said yes 100 times out of 100.

I wasn't a Hillis hater either, I wish he got his shot here but at the time it was clear he wouldn't play much so it seemed like a no-brainer. Who's to say we didn't swap one talented guy that never played for another?

What would crack me up would be if we traded Quinn and he went on to dominate somewhere else. Oh the mixed feelings around here!

Jesus, dumping Simms alone made us a better team.

Rohirrim
11-30-2010, 01:55 PM
I think the players will come out to play. I'm not sure how McD stands with the defensive assts. But the personnel is so horrible that even good coaching won't have great effect. It's not that the chorfs don't know what Den has. The problem is that the chorfs have a good running attack, Den doesn't defend run well, and they and Haley should be looking for some payback after the running up of the score, and Den won in KC last year (I think though I don't care to look it up) And our offense is one dimensional.

I just don't see how the result is going to be pretty.

The Broncos have been doing a good job against the run. They contained Jackson. But the lack of pass rush is fatal.

bendog
11-30-2010, 01:55 PM
No he inherited a mediocre team and made it worse. Which is exactly what has to happen (and is basically the entire point the author was trying to make).

I agree with the author almost point for point. I get it, Broncos fans have apparently never seen rebuilding. It's shocking how easily this fan base accepted mediocrity. To fix it you first have to go in reverse. You have to weed out the players who drag you down (here's looking at you Tony Scheffler, Brandon Marshall, and Jay Cutler). You have to bring in young players, and then you have to develop them.

What we're seeing is a young team in development. Seriously, go watch a Jets game from 3 or 4 season ago. Under Mangini:

2006 record: 10-6

2007 Draft highlights: Revis, David Harris (traded all over the board for this)
2007 record: 4-12

2008 Draft Highlights: Gholston, Keller
2008 record: 9-7

2009 Draft Highlights: Sanchez
2009 record: 9-7

That's what rebuilding looks like. That first 10-6 year was a bit of an outlier. A lot of things went the Jets way that year, but first they absolutely cleaned house. The following year the bottom fell out, and that's what rebuilding looks like.

You draft well (I'd argue that the Broncos drafted extraordinarily well last year) and slot in free agents. You have to have that 4-12 year before things truly turn around. We're experiencing 4-12 right now. It sucks, but look at where the Jets are now.

I hope that Bowlen has the sense to stick with it and let this coach and his vision run its course. If we're not contending for a superbowl in 3 years, then we can talk. Until then, we have to experience some pain. This franchise is *finally* trying to break free from mediocrity.

Dude, we went to the AFC championship in 05 and averaged ten wins in that and the previous three years. That ain't mediocrity. But homer on.

If Tebow is a player, then the 10 draft is a success. if not, it's a flop considering the picks. 09 was a debacle.

yerner
11-30-2010, 02:00 PM
No he inherited a mediocre team and made it worse. Which is exactly what has to happen (and is basically the entire point the author was trying to make).

I agree with the author almost point for point. I get it, Broncos fans have apparently never seen rebuilding. It's shocking how easily this fan base accepted mediocrity. To fix it you first have to go in reverse. You have to weed out the players who drag you down (here's looking at you Tony Scheffler, Brandon Marshall, and Jay Cutler). You have to bring in young players, and then you have to develop them.

What we're seeing is a young team in development. Seriously, go watch a Jets game from 3 or 4 season ago. Under Mangini:

2006 record: 10-6

2007 Draft highlights: Revis, David Harris (traded all over the board for this)
2007 record: 4-12

2008 Draft Highlights: Gholston, Keller
2008 record: 9-7

2009 Draft Highlights: Sanchez
2009 record: 9-7

That's what rebuilding looks like. That first 10-6 year was a bit of an outlier. A lot of things went the Jets way that year, but first they absolutely cleaned house. The following year the bottom fell out, and that's what rebuilding looks like.

You draft well (I'd argue that the Broncos drafted extraordinarily well last year) and slot in free agents. You have to have that 4-12 year before things truly turn around. We're experiencing 4-12 right now. It sucks, but look at where the Jets are now.

I hope that Bowlen has the sense to stick with it and let this coach and his vision run its course. If we're not contending for a superbowl in 3 years, then we can talk. Until then, we have to experience some pain. This franchise is *finally* trying to break free from mediocrity.

Wait. There was a coaching change. Doesn't that throw a wrench into your theory a little? If anything it means that the Broncos are in trouble for not having the ownership gm structure that the Jets have.

jhns
11-30-2010, 02:01 PM
The offene is older at pretty much every position and the majority of the starters on defense are over 30. Did someone really just post that this is a young team developing talent?

enjolras
11-30-2010, 02:03 PM
I thought Hillis was a shanny guy. And he was. Shanny gave him a shot, and McD came in drafted a rb at 11 (which was a horrible mistake and continues to be a hemmorage on the defense btw) so Hillis was not a happy camper. Not the first time a guy got shipped out of town after proving he was a player. No one knew how good, but that's beside the pt. What was horrible was not addressing defense in a strong defensive draft though at least 1-40 slots and instead drafting at what was possibly the weakest postioin in the draft. That's not just being "unprepared" (which is no excuse in any event) it's being arrogant and stupid.

What part of the draft are you really unhappy with?

Demaryius Thomas?
Tebow?
Walton?
Beadles?
Decker?
Cox?
Thompson?

Our offensive line was pathetic in 2009. Beadles looks like an absolute stud, and Walton has shown signs of really settling into his position. I know the line has struggled this year, but after watching the last few games I'm quite optimistic about it's future. The improvement is readily apparent.

Thomas is going to be solid, and possibly a superstar in this league. Cox looks like a really solid corner. Thompson is going to be a very good nickel back for this team. Tebow is a question mark, but you have to like what you've seen so far right?

By my count this draft produced 4 players (Thomas, Beadles, Walton, and Cox) who will be long-term starters in this league, along with a fifth (Tebow) that is too early to judge. Decker has shown a lot of grit on special teams, and I suspect he'll find his way into the receiving rotation at some point.

Simply going defense in this draft doesn't fix this team. We had big problems on both sides of the ball. In the upcoming draft I'd hope to see much more emphasis on defense, as I think the offense is in a pretty good place. We just need those new linemen to develop along with our tackles actually getting healthy.

Defense is a mess right now. Right now the only two legitimate starters that I see on defense are Dumervil, Cox, DJ Williams, Goodman, and Champ. I don't think Champ will be on the team next season. Joe Mays has shown a lot as well.

Ayers showed flashes earlier in the year, but he came back poorly this week. I have high hopes for him...

So coming into this offseason I see huge needs along the defensive front along with tremendous holes at safety (Dawkins just isn't the answer). McBath is a good rotational player, but Hill is hardly putting the fear of god into anyone.

So we have to find:

Both safeties
Defensive front
Linebacker depth
Offensive right tackle depth (can we trust Harris?)

I don't think this team is going to be fixed even in this offseason. I think we will be better (much better) next season. We have a lot of pieces and I think this team has the potential to be a perennial contender for a long time. This years draft will define the McDaniels era. If the draft matches the 2010 class, this team will be in great shape.

Popps
11-30-2010, 02:05 PM
What ended up being funny about the Hillis trade is that the irony is on those who vehemently supported it.

Did anyone "vehemently" support it? I don't recall anyone saying, "we've got to get this guy off of our team."

I think people saw that he wasn't fitting in with what the staff was doing, and said.. well, at least we got something for him.

Of course, we all knew he was talented. That's been a topic of conversation here going back to the Shanahan days.

24champ
11-30-2010, 02:07 PM
Great article, and shows how most Bronco fans are short sighted and not very educated on football matters. I've seen a lot of posts of people calling for the drafting of Andrew Luck and getting a new HC, and they think it's a recipe for instant success.

Here’s the rational question, to me. Do you really want to flush the last 2 years, and start over again? If you do,understand that that means a whole new program, new schemes, new personnel requirements for those schemes, and, consequently, more losing. You’re suddenly running the risk of becoming a franchise that loses all the time and changes coaches every three years, never setting a consistent direction. We’ve already seen this on defense, but it’s been every year, and it’s unquestionably ugly. Think of haphazard, direction-less rebuilding as equal to 5 defensive coordinators in 5 years.

Good points. This organization is rebuilding and needs to stabilize after so many offseasons that had turmoil and drama. I do agree with Bowlen that there needs to be some position coaches that need to go.

Popps
11-30-2010, 02:14 PM
What part of the draft are you really unhappy with?

Demaryius Thomas?
Tebow?
Walton?
Beadles?
Decker?
Cox?
Thompson?

Our offensive line was pathetic in 2009. Beadles looks like an absolute stud, and Walton has shown signs of really settling into his position. I know the line has struggled this year, but after watching the last few games I'm quite optimistic about it's future. The improvement is readily apparent.

Thomas is going to be solid, and possibly a superstar in this league. Cox looks like a really solid corner. Thompson is going to be a very good nickel back for this team. Tebow is a question mark, but you have to like what you've seen so far right?

By my count this draft produced 4 players (Thomas, Beadles, Walton, and Cox) who will be long-term starters in this league, along with a fifth (Tebow) that is too early to judge. Decker has shown a lot of grit on special teams, and I suspect he'll find his way into the receiving rotation at some point.

Simply going defense in this draft doesn't fix this team. We had big problems on both sides of the ball. In the upcoming draft I'd hope to see much more emphasis on defense, as I think the offense is in a pretty good place. We just need those new linemen to develop along with our tackles actually getting healthy.

Defense is a mess right now. Right now the only two legitimate starters that I see on defense are Dumervil, Cox, DJ Williams, Goodman, and Champ. I don't think Champ will be on the team next season. Joe Mays has shown a lot as well.

Ayers showed flashes earlier in the year, but he came back poorly this week. I have high hopes for him...

So coming into this offseason I see huge needs along the defensive front along with tremendous holes at safety (Dawkins just isn't the answer). McBath is a good rotational player, but Hill is hardly putting the fear of god into anyone.

So we have to find:

Both safeties
Defensive front
Linebacker depth
Offensive right tackle depth (can we trust Harris?)

I don't think this team is going to be fixed even in this offseason. I think we will be better (much better) next season. We have a lot of pieces and I think this team has the potential to be a perennial contender for a long time. This years draft will define the McDaniels era. If the draft matches the 2010 class, this team will be in great shape.

Excellent post. This is a good outline of why I think this team has a future, despite the current environment.

24champ
11-30-2010, 02:15 PM
Those same posters who tried to run opponents of the Hillis trade into the ground are the ones trying to ignore their childish response to those who thought it was a bad idea.

I didnt see Hillis as a difference maker, but it was certainly curious to trade him away for a 3rd QB.

Quinn is basically a safety net considering Simms did really bad. At the time we acquired Brady Quinn, Kyle Orton only had one season left on his contract and last season he suffered through some injuries. Quinn was the only Quarterback that was signed through the 2011 season. Then we drafted Tebow and gave Orton a 1 year extension.

Cool Breeze
11-30-2010, 02:17 PM
This guy was off to a good start but I stopped reading when he defended the Peyton Hillis trade.

Then you missed a good read.
One must have patience. The rest of the article made sense - that must be why you quit.

enjolras
11-30-2010, 02:19 PM
The offene is older at pretty much every position and the majority of the starters on defense are over 30. Did someone really just post that this is a young team developing talent?

Lets see:

Orton - 28
Moreno - 23
Harris - 25
Kuper - 27
Walton - 23
Beadles - 24
Clady - 24
Graham - 32
Royal - 24
Thomas - 22
lloyd - 29

On offense, by my count, that's 7 starters (or players who see a lot of playing time) under the age of 25. But ya, it's absurd to think that we have a lot of young talent.

The defensive side of the ball is not so promising, but it exists:

Cox - 23
Mays - 25
Ayers - 25
McBath - 25
Thompson - 23

Probably a couple of others I'm missing. I do agree that we need to get younger and more talented on the defensive side of the football. We still have a lot of pieces, however. Our line-backing corp might be:

Dumervil - 26
Williams - 28
Mays - 25
Ayers - 25

That's a solid and young set of linebackers that this team can build around. I fully expect the upcoming draft to largely be about that.

Cito Pelon
11-30-2010, 02:34 PM
I hope to God McD gets a two year extension tomorrow, just to laugh at the anguish from the boatload of scumbags that have tried to undermine everything Bronco since Shanny was fired.

There's scum running around here calling Josh an embarrassment for this Spygate thing, yet the NFL punishment wasn't enough, they want MORE revelations of impropriety to come out, they insist there HAS to be MORE embarrassing revelations.

I say anybody that has said Josh told the guy to videotape, and this has been a regular practice, is a scumbag fan. That tells me they don't care that the NFL didn't think it was a big deal, they want to make it a BIGGER deal to embarrass the franchise further. That definitely tells me this scum is crappy fans, and I hope to god Josh gets an extension so they're disgusted enough to go follow another team.

These scum are not Bronco fans, plain and simple. They can't even be characterized as BANDWAGON Bronco fans, because bandwagoners just go away when the going gets tough.

This scum actively tries to undermine the team. What that makes them is scumbags more interested in spouting their own opinion than supporting the team.

crawdad
11-30-2010, 02:37 PM
I hope to God McD gets a two year extension tomorrow, just to laugh at the anguish from the boatload of scumbags that have tried to undermine everything Bronco since Shanny was fired.

There's scum running around here calling Josh an embarrassment for this Spygate thing, yet the NFL punishment wasn't enough, they want MORE revelations of impropriety to come out, they insist there HAS to be MORE embarrassing revelations.

I say anybody that has said Josh told the guy to videotape, and this has been a regular practice, is a scumbag fan. That tells me they don't care that the NFL didn't think it was a big deal, they want to make it a BIGGER deal to embarrass the franchise further. That definitely tells me this scum is crappy fans, and I hope to god Josh gets an extension so they're disgusted enough to go follow another team.

These scum are not Bronco fans, plain and simple. They can't even be characterized as BANDWAGON Bronco fans, because bandwagoners just go away when the going gets tough.

This scum actively tries to undermine the team. What that makes them is scumbags more interested in spouting their own opinion than supporting the team.


Here, here!

uplink
11-30-2010, 02:46 PM
The Hillis thing is only related to him being white because there aren't many white RBs in the NFL and he is kind of like an underdog in this aspect. The major reason people like him is because he makes guys miss tackles by running straight into them and over them if possible.

jhns
11-30-2010, 02:52 PM
Ahhh, the real fan argument again.

Everyone that has supported this coach completely trashing this franchise is not a real fan. How could you be? If I supported cancer just because my mom had it, it would make me a bad son. The same concept applies.

So all of you McDaniels fans need to stop claiming to be Broncos fans.

enjolras
11-30-2010, 02:54 PM
Dude, we went to the AFC championship in 05 and averaged ten wins in that and the previous three years. That ain't mediocrity. But homer on.

If Tebow is a player, then the 10 draft is a success. if not, it's a flop considering the picks. 09 was a debacle.

*chokes a little bit*

2005 2005 NFL AFC West 1st 13 3 0
2006 2006 NFL AFC West 3rd 9 7 0
2007 2007 NFL AFC West 2nd 7 9 0
2008 2008 NFL AFC West 2nd 8 8 0

That's not mediocre? One playoff win a decade isn't mediocre?

Jesus, what's happened to this place?

baja
11-30-2010, 02:55 PM
Yep

We all hate losing, it's just that some of us don't act like 13 year old girls who just had their cell phone take away by their parents. OMG, like the Broncos are so not winning right now, it must be the coaches fault, as they cry out in their little girl voices...........hahaha. It used to bother me a little but now, I just don't care about their short sighted opinions anymore. Seems like all they can do is complain about the coach.

I resisted for a good long while but I finally took Popps advice and but some of these yahoos on ignore. My only regret is I didn't o it sooner.

baja
11-30-2010, 03:03 PM
It's strange. This Sunday I am really looking forward to seeing how the team comes out for this game against the Chiefs, and at the same time, I'm afraid of what might happen.

All I want to see is a solid 60 minutes of football and some decent D and points on O. We are so bad a safety that it could be a blow out and I still would not be ready to fire anyone.

baja
11-30-2010, 03:06 PM
I don't recall many people excited about landing Quinn and his 66.8 QB rating.

I was and still am. McD has proven to me he knows QB talent and how to coach them up. The rest of us don't know shiit about how Quinn in progressing.

gunns
11-30-2010, 03:21 PM
I'm really tired of hearing about Bronco fans, me in particular, not being able to handle losses, or losing seasons. 1990 we had just come off a SB run, and I remember being frustrated, of course, but I wasn't calling for anyone's head. Same in 1999. I've lived through the early 70's when a win was like a SB win. I didn't even have a problem with the Jacksonville loss. But yes, I had a HUGE problem with the Oakland loss. Those were not Bronco players and how dare anyone allow the current Raiders to come into our house and do that, in that fashion.

I do agree we are spoiled and that happened after the SB's. We don't understand when it doesn't happen because we want it again. It's expected that we are competitive and THAT I don't see anything wrong with. I did have a problem with releasing Hillis, no I did not understand Shanahan's handling of him or McD's. But I did like shoring up our QB position, of course until I saw him play.

My problem with McD is all the drama. Regardless of what you think about the Cutler and Marshall situations, he was involved and neither was solved immediately without a lot of drama. Take action man. He always seems to come off as both guilty and innocent in each situation but he's right there too no matter what you want to believe. I don't know that it's a good thing to can him but if not he needs to coach and that's it.

Champagne Powder
11-30-2010, 03:29 PM
I was and still am. McD has proven to me he knows QB talent and how to coach them up. The rest of us don't know shiit about how Quinn in progressing.

McDaniels might not get the 3rd year to coach him up though.

He needs more impact players now and Hillis would have helped his cause.

orangenblue2
11-30-2010, 03:44 PM
Basically, he argues that 1. McD deserves more time to rebuild 2. the Hillis decision was valued right at the time and 3. our Defense lacks talent.
1. He does...
2. I could be wrong, but Hillis wasn't a starter when Shanny was here until all the other backs went down with injuries. It is obvious to me that Hillis either couldn't or wouldn't grasp McD's offense. I'm happy for Hillis and what he is doing in CLE, but the have a COMPLETELY different offense...sheesh
3. We do lack talent...specifically young talent on the D line. I think there are some good things going on with the 'backers and some promising yet still raw DB's that just need time to develop. Safeties are a concern to me. I love him but Dawk has looked especially old and slow the last couple of weeks...hopefully he just has a touch of the flu.

He doesn't address McD's inability to make it work with Cutler, Marshall, Hillis, Sheffler, Nolan and other assistant coaches. How about the hiring of a convicted cheater from New England? Or the cataclysmic decline in wins the past two years? Of course there is more. The article neglects to consider the preponderance of issues and instead cherry picks the easy ones.

See, its posts like these that raise the "douchiness quotient" to the next level. First of all, let's not forget that it was Cutler who wouldn't return Bowlen's phone calls after he got butt-hurt, and Bowlen himself who said get rid of him. Secondly, Marshall was a malcontent who was disruptive to the whole team. By the way, I don't miss him and his one-touchdown-through eleven-games-for-Miami act...they can keep him and his ridiculous contract. Hillis...I've already gone through above. Sheffler couldn't and won't ever block...something that is extremely important in McD's offense. Plus he was a whiny b**** when his friend Cutler left. Make no mistake, Sheff talked his way out of DEN; and his stats through eleven games don't warrant a trip to Hawaii in February either. F him. Mike Nolan? If I'm not mistaken, Mike Nolan was the D coordinator last year for the Broncos during our unexpected 6-0 start...he was still D coordinator for our abysmal 2-8 slide the rest of the way. Oh, and the team that he works for now...yeah, they are 6-5 and in third place in their division. Lastly, our "cataclysmic decline in wins the last two years"? You must be referring to something other than 2006's 9-7? Maybe you recall 2007's 7-9 gem of a season? Or perhaps you'd forgotten the stellar 2008 campaign...when we went 8-8? McD's first year was 8-8. We can still go 8-8 this year. Where is this "cataclysmic decline" you so lovingly speak of? That's right...there isn't one. You, my friend, are a douchy asshat. You signify all that is wrong with a certain part of the Bronco fanbase. Instead of relying on facts or even calling a spade a spade, and admitting that you just don't like McD (for whatever reason); you spout emotional gibberish unsubstantiated by reality in any way, shape, or form. Now go to your room...

Rohirrim
11-30-2010, 03:47 PM
All I want to see is a solid 60 minutes of football and some decent D and points on O. We are so bad a safety that it could be a blow out and I still would not be ready to fire anyone.

Yeah. Times are tough. Time to stand with the team. :thumbsup:

WolfpackGuy
11-30-2010, 03:50 PM
So what is this Ted Bartlett's username on this forum...

go_broncos
11-30-2010, 03:51 PM
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baja (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/member.php?u=49)

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Are you still behind Mcd...We won 5 games out of 21.We are the worst team in NFL..
Keep preaching that we need to give Mcd one more year.

orangemonkey
11-30-2010, 04:08 PM
1. He does...
2. I could be wrong, but Hillis wasn't a starter when Shanny was here until all the other backs went down with injuries. It is obvious to me that Hillis either couldn't or wouldn't grasp McD's offense. I'm happy for Hillis and what he is doing in CLE, but the have a COMPLETELY different offense...sheesh
3. We do lack talent...specifically young talent on the D line. I think there are some good things going on with the 'backers and some promising yet still raw DB's that just need time to develop. Safeties are a concern to me. I love him but Dawk has looked especially old and slow the last couple of weeks...hopefully he just has a touch of the flu.



See, its posts like these that raise the "douchiness quotient" to the next level. First of all, let's not forget that it was Cutler who wouldn't return Bowlen's phone calls after he got butt-hurt, and Bowlen himself who said get rid of him. Secondly, Marshall was a malcontent who was disruptive to the whole team. By the way, I don't miss him and his one-touchdown-through eleven-games-for-Miami act...they can keep him and his ridiculous contract. Hillis...I've already gone through above. Sheffler couldn't and won't ever block...something that is extremely important in McD's offense. Plus he was a whiny b**** when his friend Cutler left. Make no mistake, Sheff talked his way out of DEN; and his stats through eleven games don't warrant a trip to Hawaii in February either. F him. Mike Nolan? If I'm not mistaken, Mike Nolan was the D coordinator last year for the Broncos during our unexpected 6-0 start...he was still D coordinator for our abysmal 2-8 slide the rest of the way. Oh, and the team that he works for now...yeah, they are 6-5 and in third place in their division. Lastly, our "cataclysmic decline in wins the last two years"? You must be referring to something other than 2006's 9-7? Maybe you recall 2007's 7-9 gem of a season? Or perhaps you'd forgotten the stellar 2008 campaign...when we went 8-8? McD's first year was 8-8. We can still go 8-8 this year. Where is this "cataclysmic decline" you so lovingly speak of? That's right...there isn't one. You, my friend, are a douchy asshat. You signify all that is wrong with a certain part of the Bronco fanbase. Instead of relying on facts or even calling a spade a spade, and admitting that you just don't like McD (for whatever reason); you spout emotional gibberish unsubstantiated by reality in any way, shape, or form. Now go to your room...

Got it, so each individual example you've provided above can be attributed to the failure of someone other than McD? No fault at all can be placed on a young, immature coach who was over his head from the onset? What about the the hiring of a cheater from the Patriots - did he sneak onto the Broncos payroll without McD noticing? Oh, and 5 wins in the last 21 attempts. Haven't see anything this bad in 40 years yet you compare it to our 06, 07, 08 seasons? Brilliant.

Inkana7
11-30-2010, 04:13 PM
McDaniels might not get the 3rd year to coach him up though.

He needs more impact players now and Hillis would have helped his cause.

A good coach does not coach just for the sake of a quick fix, immediate results, and keeping his job. A good coach tries to build something lasting.

gyldenlove
11-30-2010, 04:21 PM
This is what I think, in general. The schemes that the Broncos are using in all phases of the game range from fine (defense, special teams) to excellent (offense).

Really, the scheme on defense is fine to you? To me the worst defense in Broncos history is not fine, it is pathetic. But then, maybe I am not as happy as you are with a team that can't win games.

The scheme last year on defense was okay, the scheme this year is abysmal. A fine defensive scheme does not allow the Raiders at home no less, led by a QB so bad he couldn't find a job in Canada to score 59 points. They do not make a rookie QB with his best reciever on IR look like a pro bowler.

I particularly expect Zane Beadles and J.D. Walton to improve for next season, and Demaryius Thomas and Eric Decker to really compete for playing time on offense as second year players. I also expect Tim Tebow to give Kyle Orton a lot of competition, and maybe beat him out.

Really, you expect every single draft pick from last to be a stud? Based on previous experience, you are not going to go 5 for 5 in the top 3 rounds (in 2009 we were 2 for 5 unless Mcbath suddenly finds a way to be healthy and play). Walton and Beadles I would say have not shown enough to be that enthusiastic, Thomas has shown flashes of brilliance and flashes of not knowing where he is supposed to be, Decker has not been on the field a whole lot except for in punting situations. Really, you expect Tebow to beat out the leading passer in the NFL?

I get being a fanboy but this is ridiculous. If you are unhappy with anyone who is not as 100% on board with every single move the organization makes, as it seems you are, it is going to be a long cold winter for you.

If the McDaniels regime is allowed to continue, and some better defensive talent is acquired, this team will win more games.

Well they could hardly win any fewer could they?

The question is, why would they need to add more defensive talent? The team Mcdaniels took over had a decent offense and a pisspoor defense, and of the 10 top 3 round picks we have used so far the split is 3 defenders and 7 offensive players. Maybe is the regime had focused a little more on the problems at hand, they wouldn't need to have a mulligan season.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-30-2010, 04:23 PM
Solid takes? Check.

Backed up with factual information? Check.

Use of profanity? Check.

Big fan of this.

Tombstone RJ
11-30-2010, 04:25 PM
Really, the scheme on defense is fine to you? To me the worst defense in Broncos history is not fine, it is pathetic. But then, maybe I am not as happy as you are with a team that can't win games.

The scheme last year on defense was okay, the scheme this year is abysmal. A fine defensive scheme does not allow the Raiders at home no less, led by a QB so bad he couldn't find a job in Canada to score 59 points. They do not make a rookie QB with his best reciever on IR look like a pro bowler.



Really, you expect every single draft pick from last to be a stud? Based on previous experience, you are not going to go 5 for 5 in the top 3 rounds (in 2009 we were 2 for 5 unless Mcbath suddenly finds a way to be healthy and play). Walton and Beadles I would say have not shown enough to be that enthusiastic, Thomas has shown flashes of brilliance and flashes of not knowing where he is supposed to be, Decker has not been on the field a whole lot except for in punting situations. Really, you expect Tebow to beat out the leading passer in the NFL?

I get being a fanboy but this is ridiculous. If you are unhappy with anyone who is not as 100% on board with every single move the organization makes, as it seems you are, it is going to be a long cold winter for you.



Well they could hardly win any fewer could they?

The question is, why would they need to add more defensive talent? The team Mcdaniels took over had a decent offense and a pisspoor defense, and of the 10 top 3 round picks we have used so far the split is 3 defenders and 7 offensive players. Maybe is the regime had focused a little more on the problems at hand, they wouldn't need to have a mulligan season.

I think your confusing schemes with execution. Bartlett is saying the schemes are fine, but the execution is lacking. At least, this is what I'm getting out of it.

baja
11-30-2010, 04:31 PM
McDaniels might not get the 3rd year to coach him up though.

He needs more impact players now and Hillis would have helped his cause.

So you could say he did what he thought was best for the Broncos dispite it weakening his job security.

Bronco Yoda
11-30-2010, 04:40 PM
I have a feeling this post will get lost in the sea of emotion going on right now, but this article pretty much said everything I have tried to say in my last couple of posts on the calls for firing McD, except a million times better.

It's worth the read, IMO

http://onemanfootball.com/2010/11/29/another-county-heard-from-cuyahoga-that-is/

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/netizen/Bronco%20Avs/moron.gif


..."Yes, caucasian-ness is the primary driver for the majority of the love that Hillis gets"... :rofl:

So much more fail. It just goes on and on.

Tombstone RJ
11-30-2010, 04:49 PM
One things for sure, McD is gonna know what Broncos football is all about come hell or high water. That is, if he's canned it's gonna leave a permanent mark on his coaching life. He he manages to pull himself and the Broncos up to the level of play we all demand, he's gonna be a Bronco's man through and through, JMHO.

It's about winning Josh.

DawnBTVS
11-30-2010, 05:15 PM
I think a lot of fans are also forgetting just how much turnover and flux there has been on the field of play as well in terms of positions.

1: The OL was mostly in flux mainly due to players needing to get healthy and growing pains for the rookies inside. Now that it has been stabilized for the last few weeks, the running game has improved quite a bit. Also helping is a healthy Knowshon Moreno.

2: The RB core has been an absolute disarray since the preseason. LenDale White went down for the season, Moreno has dealt with injuries for most of the year, and Denver has had to turn to guys like Lance Ball to help pick up the slack. Buckhalter has been solid in certain areas and disappointing in others.

3: The defense has largely been a hodge podge group from week to week. Guys like Joe Mays and Jason Hunter have been contributors here and there but have had to fill in for the IR'd Elvis Dumervil (which is a bigger loss than most are really acknowledging). The secondary has been patched together as well with rookies having to start and players seemingly going in and out every other week.

4: The only constants are really QB and WR. Even than, the WR group has been a bit in flux with Demaryius Thomas fighting through injuries (same for Eddie Royal) and Eric Decker being used sporadically to help fill in.

5: One of the hyped TE prospects, Marquez Branson, went out for the year (correct me if I'm wrong please) so a greater reliance has been made on Daniel Graham and Dan Gronkowski as receiving options. As a Patriots fan, Graham is the exact same as Ben Watson was. He can give you a solid game or two but generally tends to disappear or develop stone hands at the most inopportune times.

Even with all this...
- They beat Tennessee and nearly beat an incredibly good Jets team. They stomped a good Chiefs squad and nearly came back to beat a Rams team that has been seemingly getting better week to week. They can hang with good teams but now it's all about being consistent week to week in not only execution but health wise at every position on the field.

strafen
11-30-2010, 05:34 PM
So you could say he did what he thought was best for the Broncos dispite it weakening his job security.You've gota stop and think for a moment of all the things that have transpire with the Broncos since McDaniels took over.
It hasn't been pretty man.
He started with a big bang when he traded Cutler, and it has been a disaster ever since.
I'm only using Cutler just to establish some kind of timeline.
Then, it seemed like every mistake or bad decision he made was outdone by his next.

One poster here keeps mentioning "it couldn't get any worse" and believe it or not, it keeps getting worse.
McDaniels is not good for the Broncos as an organization, what the Broncos represent, what the Broncos mean the city and its fan, and the image of this once proud franchise. This image has been tarnished.
How can you as a fan accept that, let alone defend it?

DarkHorse30
11-30-2010, 05:38 PM
From the linked counterpoint's arguement (Schein from Fox)
Itís worth jogging the mental Rolodex that this was not a rebuilding or retooling situation. The expectations were for McDaniels, part of the Bill Belichick tree, to get the Broncos into the playoffs in 2009. And McDaniels has failed, and failed to epic proportions.
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Josh-McDaniels-ruining-Denver-Broncos-112910

See, this writer (Schein) has to be high if he thinks Denver wasn't/isn't due for a rebuild. Shanahan consistently tried a band-aid approach that ignored building his team, in the years after 97-98. That "almost" worked in 2005....so painfully close that the team was nearly in a SB that it likely could have won.

Stein also misses that a just-hired, young offense-minded HC won't rubberstamp the offense from his successor....and NO owner would expect him to. I would guess McDaniels told Bowlen exactly what he was going to do and about how long it would take to do it (2-3 years probably).

The kicker here, IMO is that our defense has fallen to rock bottom. Whose fault is that? Yes McDaniels should get some of the blame for not gearing his offense to a bit more grind that could chew up some clock and help his defense. But in that last game, our defense didn't exist for about two quarters.

I don't like NY writers, anyway....so there is a bit of bias against Schein......actually, I think the whole eastern seaboard is WAY too full of itself.

TonyR
11-30-2010, 05:55 PM
Dude, we went to the AFC championship in 05 and averaged ten wins in that and the previous three years. That ain't mediocrity. But homer on.

So did 2006, 2007, and 2008 not happen? You know, where we went 24-24 and didn't make the playoffs? That's not "mediocrity"?

gyldenlove
11-30-2010, 06:19 PM
I think your confusing schemes with execution. Bartlett is saying the schemes are fine, but the execution is lacking. At least, this is what I'm getting out of it.

We have as much talent on defense this year as we did last, and we are still quite a bit worse, that is not execution, that is scheme. It is not execution that puts Renaldo Hill so far back he is in a different climate, or execution that dials up uninspired blitzes and soft zone coverage.

epicSocialism4tw
11-30-2010, 06:22 PM
I have a solution:

Make the players and coaching staff all wear dresses instead of standard issue uniforms.

At least then they might feel the need to fight for their pride.

KipCorrington25
11-30-2010, 06:33 PM
This guy was off to a good start but I stopped reading when he defended the Peyton Hillis trade.

Oh he did? Yeah I won't even read it then, no credibility obviously. :thumbs:

KipCorrington25
11-30-2010, 06:37 PM
this is exactly why Josh will be fired.

I think people could buy in if we had a little confidence in the guy but with every head scratching move since day one... release Mike Leach to bring in a New England guy who is older and twice the price... to now of course he should be fired.

Inkana7
11-30-2010, 07:10 PM
I think people could buy in if we had a little confidence in the guy but with every head scratching move since day one... release Mike Leach to bring in a New England guy who is older and twice the price... to now of course he should be fired.

Yeah Paxton is actually younger than Leach. And he's a longsnapper, where age doesn't exactly matter anyways.

Not that that move wasn't a head scratcher. But at least get your facts straight.

DBroncos4life
11-30-2010, 07:21 PM
you keep buying with the press is selling... sorry, I'm not buying all this crap. I think McD is being crucified by the media because 1. He's the Denver Broncos head coach and 2. He's an easy target.

I still think that the Broncos best option at this point and time is to get McD help., not throw him to the wolves.

But whatever, you keep that lynching rope ready, I know you'll be the first to throw it over the branch and cry for bloody murder.

He brought it on himself.

RaiderH8r
11-30-2010, 07:29 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/netizen/Bronco%20Avs/moron.gif


..."Yes, caucasian-ness is the primary driver for the majority of the love that Hillis gets"... :rofl:

So much more fail. It just goes on and on.

Yeah, it couldn't be that Hillis, on a crap Browns team, has continued to excel and carry that offense. Nope. Couldn't be he's a hard nosed runner with a nose for the sticks and the end zone. Nope. It's because us slack jawed honkies need a great white hope. What a dumb dick bag.

I was on record against Fonzi day one. He was talented at Wake. He may be a good guy. But nothing about him justified the move we made or the cost we paid.

Nobody thinks, or thought, Brady Quinn was worth two dribbles of piss off of a rat's dick. Anybody who disagrees with me hasn't been paying attention. Hillis is a guy that showed toughness and desire, two things I'd take in spades on this club. These guys are softer than Charmin.

Orton needs to be traded while his value is high, Champ can probably be kept for the right price.

McKid can...hopefully...be salvaged. We need a real GM, a real VP of Football Operations, a real DC and a draft focused on building D. It's nice to have some youth and passion in charge but there needs to be a firm, guiding hand to make sure it keeps moving in the right direction.

ColoradoDarin
11-30-2010, 08:11 PM
From the linked counterpoint's arguement (Schein from Fox)

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Josh-McDaniels-ruining-Denver-Broncos-112910

See, this writer (Schein) has to be high if he thinks Denver wasn't/isn't due for a rebuild. Shanahan consistently tried a band-aid approach that ignored building his team, in the years after 97-98. That "almost" worked in 2005....so painfully close that the team was nearly in a SB that it likely could have won.

Stein also misses that a just-hired, young offense-minded HC won't rubberstamp the offense from his successor....and NO owner would expect him to. I would guess McDaniels told Bowlen exactly what he was going to do and about how long it would take to do it (2-3 years probably).

The kicker here, IMO is that our defense has fallen to rock bottom. Whose fault is that? Yes McDaniels should get some of the blame for not gearing his offense to a bit more grind that could chew up some clock and help his defense. But in that last game, our defense didn't exist for about two quarters.

I don't like NY writers, anyway....so there is a bit of bias against Schein......actually, I think the whole eastern seaboard is WAY too full of itself.

Schein is the biggest hack writer around. He's even worse in video.

He should be dropped into a medium-sized volcano and never thought of again.

ColoradoDarin
11-30-2010, 08:15 PM
We have as much talent on defense this year as we did last, and we are still quite a bit worse, that is not execution, that is scheme. It is not execution that puts Renaldo Hill so far back he is in a different climate, or execution that dials up uninspired blitzes and soft zone coverage.

Really? You think not having the NFL sack leader is having the same talent? Starting a rookie opposite of Champ instead of Goodman is having the same talent? You think our best run stopper (Ayers) breaking his foot and missing significant time is having the same talent?

epicSocialism4tw
11-30-2010, 08:21 PM
Really? You think not having the NFL sack leader is having the same talent? Starting a rookie opposite of Champ instead of Goodman is having the same talent? You think our best run stopper (Ayers) breaking his foot and missing significant time is having the same talent?

Jason Hunter and Mario Haggan are studs.

ColoradoDarin
11-30-2010, 08:28 PM
Jason Hunter and Mario Haggan are studs.

Studs?

http://www.strategicdc.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/inconceivable.jpg

epicSocialism4tw
11-30-2010, 08:34 PM
Studs?

http://www.strategicdc.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/inconceivable.jpg

Studs
http://www.woodaware.info/fireframe/images/dynamic/Studs.JPG

Merlin
11-30-2010, 09:24 PM
This article is filled with misinformation, VERY poor analysis of the facts and football, EXTREMELY rose colored glasses in its evaluation of team performance, technical prowess, strategies, drafts and trades, totally misrepresents many peoples statements when trades were made, borderline racist, and it is absolutely no better than much of the diatribe and deceit that has been stated here by many of McD's apologists. Other than that, it is ok.

bronco militia
11-30-2010, 09:29 PM
the writer and the commenter's seem to have no problem with spygate 2

Bronco Yoda
11-30-2010, 09:38 PM
Yeah, it couldn't be that Hillis, on a crap Browns team, has continued to excel and carry that offense. Nope. Couldn't be he's a hard nosed runner with a nose for the sticks and the end zone. Nope. It's because us slack jawed honkies need a great white hope. What a dumb dick bag.

I was on record against Fonzi day one. He was talented at Wake. He may be a good guy. But nothing about him justified the move we made or the cost we paid.

Nobody thinks, or thought, Brady Quinn was worth two dribbles of piss off of a rat's dick. Anybody who disagrees with me hasn't been paying attention. Hillis is a guy that showed toughness and desire, two things I'd take in spades on this club. These guys are softer than Charmin.

Orton needs to be traded while his value is high, Champ can probably be kept for the right price.

McKid can...hopefully...be salvaged. We need a real GM, a real VP of Football Operations, a real DC and a draft focused on building D. It's nice to have some youth and passion in charge but there needs to be a firm, guiding hand to make sure it keeps moving in the right direction.

Yah Fonzi is a gambler. Hot and cold. Not something you want in that position. I prefer good and steady. I wonder if the Titans would give something for Quinn right now?

Taco John
11-30-2010, 09:42 PM
I thought that was a poorly thought out article that only someone who is still drinking the Josh McDaniels Kool-Aid could truly appreciate.


Point 1: Broncos fans are dumb and spoiled

This seems to be the first place people go when someone disagrees with the idea that Josh is a worthwhile coach who we just need to be "patient" with before he lays the magic on us. This isn't a well reasoned point. It's just pouting because everyone doesn't agree with you.


Point 2: The media is writing bad things about Josh. The media sucks!

The media is writing poor things about Josh because poor things are happening on the field. This isn't .500 team that just had a couple bad breaks. This is a .250 team that gets beat by blow-outs at home to division rivals. What sort of narrative does one imagine the media is going to construct given what they have to work with? Frankly, the local media would LOVE to write positive things about the team. Life if much easier for local media when they get to be buddies with the local team. For the large part, they're not hunting for bad things to say. And the national media isn't going to pay attention to Denver unless it's either doing really well or really poorly. That's just life.

Point 3: (The worst point of all) People only say McDaniels is a terrible personnel guy in hindsight.

The exact quote: "The most frequent charge against McDaniels is that heís a terrible personnel guy. I think thatís hogwash, aided by a lot of hindsight. There has really been no transaction that seemed egregiously bad in the moment, where somebody knowledgeable would say that it made absolutely no sense." The only thing I can guess is that the guy only gets his news and opinions from rose colored glasses sites. There have been complaints about Josh's moves all along. Most of the time these complaints would be shouted down and called trolls. But the questions were there, whether it was trading for Alphonso, trading Hillis for Quinn, trading a fourth for Maroney. And if hindsight isn't the time to judge a coaches moves, then I don't know what is.

Point 4: Trading Hillis seemed like a good deal at the time, and people only liked him because he is white

Anyone who believes this is a douche. Hillis has put up 10 TDs this year. I can find the post this past August where I said he'd put up as much, and that was when he was a third string nobody on that roster. I don't care about his color, I care about his ability. The guy is a rare talent - a freak of nature. Anyone could easily see this without too much strain. And we traded him away for a guy who has absolutely zero impact. I cannot take anyone seriously who thinks even at this late stage that insinuating people who believed in Hillis only did so because they are racists. He writes "You canít possibly convince me otherwise, because as a player, heís not too different from Reuben Droughns or Mike Anderson." What a douche. First because the only reason he won't be convinced otherwise is because he won't admit that he was wrong all along. And second, because he couldn't see the clear difference between what Peyton Hillis brings on any given down vs. waht Reuben Droughns or Mike Anderson bring. It's like not being able to tell the difference between the sun and the rain. The difference was right there on display on our own turf. If you couldn't see it, that's not on the "dumb, spoiled, racist" Broncos fans who could.

This article is trash and nothing but pouty BS.

It gets better when he doubles back on his point about the media and justifies the Hillis trade because Peter King, Mike Silver, John Clayton, or Bill Williamson didn't rant about the trade at the time. This is a hilarious walk back of his point about the media narrative.

Point 5: I loved Alphonso Smith coming out of Wake Forest, therefore this pick was well worth the trade

*face palm*

Point 6: I argue about this on Twitter a lot, and I think that Broncos fans should just lower their expectations

*face palm*

Point 7: Here's the rational question: Do you really want to flush the last 2 years, and start over again?

Here's the rational answer: with both hands and shouting the poop down until it swirls out of existence. This isn't about a rebuild. This is about the failure to rebuild. This is about going .250 in the age of parity.

Point 8: The Denver Broncos donít deserve to win by virtue of being the Denver Broncos.

Whatever. I didn't root my ass off some 30 odd years believing this trash. The Broncos deserve to win because I want them to, and anybody who says differently can talk to the hand. This is sports, and my only interest is seeing my team win a championship and enjoying the ride along the way.

Point 9: The players actually look good when they're running the script. This obviously means that they are good when they know "exactly" what they're supposed to be doing.

What a terrible point. This only shows how poorly coached they are. If you're players only play at a high level when they're running off a script, then they need to get into sitcoms and commercials, not the professional football league. But I personally think this is beside the point. I think the playcalling is good when they're going off the script. I think it's some of the worst and most directionless I've seen once they go off of the script. That, IMO, is the source of the problem, not necessarily the players. This point was not even touched in the post.

Point 10: There's no logical reason to fire McDaniels

*face palm*

I can't even address this without questioning the sanity of the author. The only way someone could believe that there is no logical reason to fire McDaniels at this point. We're in the middle of the worst stretch in the history of the franchise - certainly the worst in the modern history. There's absolutely no indication that things are going to get better. We're still just as lost right now as we were a year ago from now. If we started bad, and then the team pulled together for a late season push, that would be one thing. And sure, that may still happen, though I'd think it's too little too late at this point. But to completely dismiss a 5-16 stretch of football and say there is no logical reason to fire the architect of it, (not to mention the worst home loss in Denver Broncos football history to the Oakland Raiders) - that's just plain ignoring what's happening on the field. I understand that this person thinks that keeping McDaniels will equate to future wins, but this position is much more illogical than the idea that he should be canned.

Point 11: We just need defensive talent and we're set to go all the way to the Superbowl

This is the point that I made about the 2008 Denver Broncos. I've been laughed up and down the discussion board for having this take. Two years later, the people who were bashing me for that take are now pulling it out as "logical and reasoned."

I love this stuff...

DBroncos4life
11-30-2010, 09:57 PM
I thought that was a poorly thought out article that only someone who is still drinking the Josh McDaniels Kool-Aid could truly appreciate.


Point 1: Broncos fans are dumb and spoiled

This seems to be the first place people go when someone disagrees with the idea that Josh is a worthwhile coach who we just need to be "patient" with before he lays the magic on us. This isn't a well reasoned point. It's just pouting because everyone doesn't agree with you.


Point 2: The media is writing bad things about Josh. The media sucks!

The media is writing poor things about Josh because poor things are happening on the field. This isn't .500 team that just had a couple bad breaks. This is a .250 team that gets beat by blow-outs at home to division rivals. What sort of narrative does one imagine the media is going to construct given what they have to work with? Frankly, the local media would LOVE to write positive things about the team. Life if much easier for local media when they get to be buddies with the local team. For the large part, they're not hunting for bad things to say. And the national media isn't going to pay attention to Denver unless it's either doing really well or really poorly. That's just life.

Point 3: (The worst point of all) People only say McDaniels is a terrible personnel guy in hindsight.

The exact quote: "The most frequent charge against McDaniels is that heís a terrible personnel guy. I think thatís hogwash, aided by a lot of hindsight. There has really been no transaction that seemed egregiously bad in the moment, where somebody knowledgeable would say that it made absolutely no sense." The only thing I can guess is that the guy only gets his news and opinions from rose colored glasses sites. There have been complaints about Josh's moves all along. Most of the time these complaints would be shouted down and called trolls. But the questions were there, whether it was trading for Alphonso, trading Hillis for Quinn, trading a fourth for Maroney. And if hindsight isn't the time to judge a coaches moves, then I don't know what is.

Point 4: Trading Hillis seemed like a good deal at the time, and people only liked him because he is white

Anyone who believes this is a douche. Hillis has put up 10 TDs this year. I can find the post this past August where I said he'd put up as much, and that was when he was a third string nobody on that roster. I don't care about his color, I care about his ability. The guy is a rare talent - a freak of nature. Anyone could easily see this without too much strain. And we traded him away for a guy who has absolutely zero impact. I cannot take anyone seriously who thinks even at this late stage that insinuating people who believed in Hillis only did so because they are racists. He writes "You canít possibly convince me otherwise, because as a player, heís not too different from Reuben Droughns or Mike Anderson." What a douche. First because the only reason he won't be convinced otherwise is because he won't admit that he was wrong all along. And second, because he couldn't see the clear difference between what Peyton Hillis brings on any given down vs. waht Reuben Droughns or Mike Anderson bring. It's like not being able to tell the difference between the sun and the rain. The difference was right there on display on our own turf. If you couldn't see it, that's not on the "dumb, spoiled, racist" Broncos fans who could.

This article is trash and nothing but pouty BS.

It gets better when he doubles back on his point about the media and justifies the Hillis trade because Peter King, Mike Silver, John Clayton, or Bill Williamson didn't rant about the trade at the time. This is a hilarious walk back of his point about the media narrative.

Point 5: I loved Alphonso Smith coming out of Wake Forest, therefore this pick was well worth the trade

*face palm*

Point 6: I argue about this on Twitter a lot, and I think that Broncos fans should just lower their expectations

*face palm*

Point 7: Here's the rational question: Do you really want to flush the last 2 years, and start over again?

Here's the rational answer: with both hands and shouting the poop down until it swirls out of existence. This isn't about a rebuild. This is about the failure to rebuild. This is about going .250 in the age of parity.

Point 8: The Denver Broncos donít deserve to win by virtue of being the Denver Broncos.

Whatever. I didn't root my ass off some 30 odd years believing this trash. The Broncos deserve to win because I want them to, and anybody who says differently can talk to the hand. This is sports, and my only interest is seeing my team win a championship and enjoying the ride along the way.

Point 9: The players actually look good when they're running the script. This obviously means that they are good when they know "exactly" what they're supposed to be doing.

What a terrible point. This only shows how poorly coached they are. If you're players only play at a high level when they're running off a script, then they need to get into sitcoms and commercials, not the professional football league. But I personally think this is beside the point. I think the playcalling is good when they're going off the script. I think it's some of the worst and most directionless I've seen once they go off of the script. That, IMO, is the source of the problem, not necessarily the players. This point was not even touched in the post.

Point 10: There's no logical reason to fire McDaniels

*face palm*

I can't even address this without questioning the sanity of the author. The only way someone could believe that there is no logical reason to fire McDaniels at this point. We're in the middle of the worst stretch in the history of the franchise - certainly the worst in the modern history. There's absolutely no indication that things are going to get better. We're still just as lost right now as we were a year ago from now. If we started bad, and then the team pulled together for a late season push, that would be one thing. And sure, that may still happen, though I'd think it's too little too late at this point. But to completely dismiss a 5-16 stretch of football and say there is no logical reason to fire the architect of it, (not to mention the worst home loss in Denver Broncos football history to the Oakland Raiders) - that's just plain ignoring what's happening on the field. I understand that this person thinks that keeping McDaniels will equate to future wins, but this position is much more illogical than the idea that he should be canned.

Point 11: We just need defensive talent and we're set to go all the way to the Superbowl

This is the point that I made about the 2008 Denver Broncos. I've been laughed up and down the discussion board for having this take. Two years later, the people who were bashing me for that take are now pulling it out as "logical and reasoned."

I love this stuff...

spot on :thumbs: rep

Bronco Yoda
11-30-2010, 10:02 PM
Good stuff. This is the post I'd have done if I weren't so lazy.

epicSocialism4tw
11-30-2010, 10:06 PM
Taco John, though I agree with much of what you posted, I have to condemn your post because it features a middle aged man using the phrase "talk to the hand" in common conversation.

yerner
11-30-2010, 10:11 PM
All I see are 10 arguments why TJ isn't a fan.

Mr.Meanie
12-01-2010, 12:37 AM
From the linked counterpoint's arguement (Schein from Fox)

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Josh-McDaniels-ruining-Denver-Broncos-112910

See, this writer (Schein) has to be high if he thinks Denver wasn't/isn't due for a rebuild. Shanahan consistently tried a band-aid approach that ignored building his team, in the years after 97-98. That "almost" worked in 2005....so painfully close that the team was nearly in a SB that it likely could have won.

Stein also misses that a just-hired, young offense-minded HC won't rubberstamp the offense from his successor....and NO owner would expect him to. I would guess McDaniels told Bowlen exactly what he was going to do and about how long it would take to do it (2-3 years probably).

The kicker here, IMO is that our defense has fallen to rock bottom. Whose fault is that? Yes McDaniels should get some of the blame for not gearing his offense to a bit more grind that could chew up some clock and help his defense. But in that last game, our defense didn't exist for about two quarters.

I don't like NY writers, anyway....so there is a bit of bias against Schein......actually, I think the whole eastern seaboard is WAY too full of itself.

Schein has to realize that once the owner ordered the trade of our franchise QB for a boatload of draftpicks, we went into full-scale rebuild mode. Maybe they didn't publicize that, but if the owner made that trade without understanding the potential consequences (i.e. sticking with a journeyman and riding out the learning curve on the next new franchise QB), then the owner is the biggest ****ing idiot on the planet. But I doubt it.

Champagne Powder
12-01-2010, 12:38 AM
A good coach does not coach just for the sake of a quick fix, immediate results, and keeping his job. A good coach tries to build something lasting.

Quinn is an afterthought. It's not the best use of resources considering Orton is on a historic pace that has never been seen in Broncos' history and is signed through 2011. He threw for 3800+ yards last year and 21 TD.

Quinn for Hillis is a monumental talent evaluation blunder. End of story. You don't trade a good football player for an inferior one. Save the philosophical bull**** because a 3rd string QB doesn't out value a Pro Bowl RB.

Taco John
12-01-2010, 01:12 AM
Quinn is an afterthought. It's not the best use of resources considering Orton is on a historic pace that has never been seen in Broncos' history and is signed through 2011. He threw for 3800+ yards last year and 21 TD.

Quinn for Hillis is a monumental talent evaluation blunder. End of story. You don't trade a good football player for an inferior one. Save the philosophical bull**** because a 3rd string QB doesn't out value a Pro Bowl RB.

The worst part about the Hillis trade is that he didn't even try to showcase the guy and maximize the value. He gave away a 10 TD runningback for virtually nothing.


Cleveland Browns RB Peyton Hillis joined Hall of Famers Jim Brown and Leroy Kelly as the only players in franchise history with 11 or more rushing touchdowns in a single season, reports Mary Kay Cabot, of the Cleveland Plain Dealer. "That's just absurd," Hillis responded. "Those guys are legends and I'm nobody. So there's really no need to talk about that anymore." Hillis is also the first Browns running back to run for 10 or more TDs since 1986 when RB Kevin Mack accomplished the feat.

Read more: http://www.kffl.com/gnews.php?id=684092-browns-peyton-hillis-joins-elite-company#ixzz16qjQCmiK


"There's no logical reason to fire McDaniels"

enjolras
12-01-2010, 01:38 AM
Taco, you didn't refute much in the article. You simply danced around each of the arguments the author was making.

For instance: The script. The author's point is that a young team with two young offensive linemen (one of which has played 3 games at his position) is going to struggle in execution. You want to pin that on coaching, yet no coach in the damn league is going to get a rookie-laden offensive line to execute consistently. Not to mention that the line in question didn't have a single snap in the preseason at full health (hell it was like 9 weeks into the season before they were at full health). You can disagree with that premise, but you have to address it. Simply saying "well that's just coaching" is hardly convincing. Show me a counter example where a team has consistently performed under those conditions.

I think your expectations (and the expectation of Broncos Country on the whole) are unbelievably out of whack. I stand by my assertion, the homers on this board simply have never accepted about bad those last 3 Shannahan teams were. They weren't good teams. Those teams were mentally and physically weak.

Everything has come home to roost. I have no idea if McDaniels is the answer (time will tell). The only thing I know is that to expect the Broncos to magically start winning with no real rebuilding phase is pure fantasy.

Caveat Lector
12-01-2010, 02:39 AM
The worst part about the Hillis trade is that he didn't even try to showcase the guy and maximize the value. He gave away a 10 TD runningback for virtually nothing.

You seem to forget that Hillis was about 5th string until our RBs started going down like 9 pins. He was behind studs like Pittman, Pope, Torain, and Aldridge. You could argue that Shanahan didn't even 'try to showcase the guy' until his hand was well and truly forced.

footstepsfrom#27
12-01-2010, 02:51 AM
I thought that was a poorly thought out article that only someone who is still drinking the Josh McDaniels Kool-Aid could truly appreciate.


Point 1: Broncos fans are dumb and spoiled

This seems to be the first place people go when someone disagrees with the idea that Josh is a worthwhile coach who we just need to be "patient" with before he lays the magic on us. This isn't a well reasoned point. It's just pouting because everyone doesn't agree with you.


Point 2: The media is writing bad things about Josh. The media sucks!

The media is writing poor things about Josh because poor things are happening on the field. This isn't .500 team that just had a couple bad breaks. This is a .250 team that gets beat by blow-outs at home to division rivals. What sort of narrative does one imagine the media is going to construct given what they have to work with? Frankly, the local media would LOVE to write positive things about the team. Life if much easier for local media when they get to be buddies with the local team. For the large part, they're not hunting for bad things to say. And the national media isn't going to pay attention to Denver unless it's either doing really well or really poorly. That's just life.

Point 3: (The worst point of all) People only say McDaniels is a terrible personnel guy in hindsight.

The exact quote: "The most frequent charge against McDaniels is that heís a terrible personnel guy. I think thatís hogwash, aided by a lot of hindsight. There has really been no transaction that seemed egregiously bad in the moment, where somebody knowledgeable would say that it made absolutely no sense." The only thing I can guess is that the guy only gets his news and opinions from rose colored glasses sites. There have been complaints about Josh's moves all along. Most of the time these complaints would be shouted down and called trolls. But the questions were there, whether it was trading for Alphonso, trading Hillis for Quinn, trading a fourth for Maroney. And if hindsight isn't the time to judge a coaches moves, then I don't know what is.

Point 4: Trading Hillis seemed like a good deal at the time, and people only liked him because he is white

Anyone who believes this is a douche. Hillis has put up 10 TDs this year. I can find the post this past August where I said he'd put up as much, and that was when he was a third string nobody on that roster. I don't care about his color, I care about his ability. The guy is a rare talent - a freak of nature. Anyone could easily see this without too much strain. And we traded him away for a guy who has absolutely zero impact. I cannot take anyone seriously who thinks even at this late stage that insinuating people who believed in Hillis only did so because they are racists. He writes "You canít possibly convince me otherwise, because as a player, heís not too different from Reuben Droughns or Mike Anderson." What a douche. First because the only reason he won't be convinced otherwise is because he won't admit that he was wrong all along. And second, because he couldn't see the clear difference between what Peyton Hillis brings on any given down vs. waht Reuben Droughns or Mike Anderson bring. It's like not being able to tell the difference between the sun and the rain. The difference was right there on display on our own turf. If you couldn't see it, that's not on the "dumb, spoiled, racist" Broncos fans who could.

This article is trash and nothing but pouty BS.

It gets better when he doubles back on his point about the media and justifies the Hillis trade because Peter King, Mike Silver, John Clayton, or Bill Williamson didn't rant about the trade at the time. This is a hilarious walk back of his point about the media narrative.

Point 5: I loved Alphonso Smith coming out of Wake Forest, therefore this pick was well worth the trade

*face palm*

Point 6: I argue about this on Twitter a lot, and I think that Broncos fans should just lower their expectations

*face palm*

Point 7: Here's the rational question: Do you really want to flush the last 2 years, and start over again?

Here's the rational answer: with both hands and shouting the poop down until it swirls out of existence. This isn't about a rebuild. This is about the failure to rebuild. This is about going .250 in the age of parity.

Point 8: The Denver Broncos donít deserve to win by virtue of being the Denver Broncos.

Whatever. I didn't root my ass off some 30 odd years believing this trash. The Broncos deserve to win because I want them to, and anybody who says differently can talk to the hand. This is sports, and my only interest is seeing my team win a championship and enjoying the ride along the way.

Point 9: The players actually look good when they're running the script. This obviously means that they are good when they know "exactly" what they're supposed to be doing.

What a terrible point. This only shows how poorly coached they are. If you're players only play at a high level when they're running off a script, then they need to get into sitcoms and commercials, not the professional football league. But I personally think this is beside the point. I think the playcalling is good when they're going off the script. I think it's some of the worst and most directionless I've seen once they go off of the script. That, IMO, is the source of the problem, not necessarily the players. This point was not even touched in the post.

Point 10: There's no logical reason to fire McDaniels

*face palm*

I can't even address this without questioning the sanity of the author. The only way someone could believe that there is no logical reason to fire McDaniels at this point. We're in the middle of the worst stretch in the history of the franchise - certainly the worst in the modern history. There's absolutely no indication that things are going to get better. We're still just as lost right now as we were a year ago from now. If we started bad, and then the team pulled together for a late season push, that would be one thing. And sure, that may still happen, though I'd think it's too little too late at this point. But to completely dismiss a 5-16 stretch of football and say there is no logical reason to fire the architect of it, (not to mention the worst home loss in Denver Broncos football history to the Oakland Raiders) - that's just plain ignoring what's happening on the field. I understand that this person thinks that keeping McDaniels will equate to future wins, but this position is much more illogical than the idea that he should be canned.

Point 11: We just need defensive talent and we're set to go all the way to the Superbowl

This is the point that I made about the 2008 Denver Broncos. I've been laughed up and down the discussion board for having this take. Two years later, the people who were bashing me for that take are now pulling it out as "logical and reasoned."

I love this stuff...
Thanks for saving me from writing all that.

footstepsfrom#27
12-01-2010, 02:54 AM
You seem to forget that Hillis was about 5th string until our RBs started going down like 9 pins. He was behind studs like Pittman, Pope, Torain, and Aldridge. You could argue that Shanahan didn't even 'try to showcase the guy' until his hand was well and truly forced.
Eh...he was the starting Fullback and moved to RB when he was needed. TD started on the bench as a rookie too...is there a point here? Even the fans knew the guy was the truth...stop making excuses for a colossal mistake.

jhns
12-01-2010, 06:24 AM
Taco wins the thread.

go_broncos
12-01-2010, 06:35 AM
TJ..You are awesome..I agree with everything you said..

tsiguy96
12-01-2010, 06:43 AM
love how the anti-mcdaniels morons use revisionist history to support their claims. whatever makes you feel better, when hillis was traded, NONE of you talked about him being great in cleveland or even a big loss for denver, all everyone talked about was quinn and why he should start (and i would venture to say that atleast 80% of you complaining about us trading hillis were calling for quinn to start this year).

you guys are unreal. we finally see alphonso smiths real talents showcased last week, and you start to back off that trade, but when he gets another pick, youll bump your phons thread acting like hes a pro bowler.

go_broncos
12-01-2010, 06:48 AM
love how the anti-mcdaniels morons use revisionist history to support their claims. whatever makes you feel better, when hillis was traded, NONE of you talked about him being great in cleveland or even a big loss for denver, all everyone talked about was quinn and why he should start (and i would venture to say that atleast 80% of you complaining about us trading hillis were calling for quinn to start this year).

you guys are unreal. we finally see alphonso smiths real talents showcased last week, and you start to back off that trade, but when he gets another pick, youll bump your phons thread acting like hes a pro bowler.

I came to conclusion that Mcd doesn't evaluate running backs correctly after Hillis trade. Most of the posters thought the trade is dumb and Mcd is an idiot.
A.smith - Horrible Horrible pick..

zdoor
12-01-2010, 06:58 AM
I don't think many b****ed about Phons other than the fact that it was moronic to trade up for the guy in the first place... He was done in Denver and wasn't going to overcome the extra pressure put on him by the trade value used to acquire him. Regardless it is a collosal blunder by the FO. The concern is did they learn their lesson regarding the value of picks? The MAroney trade makes you wonder...

Many b****ed about Hillis when he wasn't being used last year and then the subsequent trade. The answers were always he didn't fit the "system" and he wasn't smart enough or fumbled.... Well that is total BS as Knowshon fumbles plenty and if you have a system that can't use talent than you have a pretty ****ty system. The argument that Hillis was a backup is pretty ridiculous too as so were a lot of great players at the beginning of their careers. Hillis showed talent during his starting stint in 2008 and should have at minimum gotten more of a shot last year... What is worse the guy showed really soft hands in 2008 which to me, seems like it would have been a great fit for what we do with backs in this passing offense. Regardless arguing over it is a waste of time as it is a mistake we can't reverse and constantly going over it is just painful, really. We are the schmucks in this trade, and hopefully, those responsible learn from. Defending it beyond that is a losing argument...

I have another point that gets overlooked constantly and that is the state of the D and Nolan being fired because McDaniels didn't agree with how he was running his scheme... We are constantly in man coverage for the most part most of the game now (a recipe for disaster when there is no pass rush), and we have a safety that plays so deep he is typically needing a cell phone to communicate with his team mates. Is this McDaniels input to the scheme or is it all on Wink? Why would McDaniels leave Wink, who is unproven alone to run his scheme? It seems to me that when your D is decimated and lacking pass rush you'd play a lot more zone to protect yourself, no? It seems like we are not ever adjusting during a game and typically stick to one type of coverage in our secondary. Its not hard to game plan when your coverage is predominantly one look. Considering McDaniels wanted to be more hands on in this, is he not more culpable for the performance of the D? You would think if you knew before the season started you were losing your top pass rushing force you would mix up your secondary looks a bit more to compensate... Revis couldn't cover WR's as long as we have too in man coverage all the time...

WolfpackGuy
12-01-2010, 07:08 AM
The Quinn trade was bad no matter WHO or WHAT the Broncos sent the Browns.

The guy was going to be cut!

tsiguy96
12-01-2010, 07:24 AM
I came to conclusion that Mcd doesn't evaluate running backs correctly after Hillis trade. Most of the posters thought the trade is dumb and Mcd is an idiot.
A.smith - Horrible Horrible pick..

smith was a horrible pick, no question, but atleast mcdaniels stuck to his guns of giving the best guys on the team roster spots, and he traded the guy who was out for someone who can contribute atleast a little bit.

colonelbeef
12-01-2010, 07:51 AM
love how the anti-mcdaniels morons use revisionist history to support their claims. whatever makes you feel better, when hillis was traded, NONE of you talked about him being great in cleveland or even a big loss for denver, all everyone talked about was quinn and why he should start (and i would venture to say that atleast 80% of you complaining about us trading hillis were calling for quinn to start this year).

you guys are unreal. we finally see alphonso smiths real talents showcased last week, and you start to back off that trade, but when he gets another pick, youll bump your phons thread acting like hes a pro bowler.


The only morons are people like you who continue to defend utter and complete failure even though it is slapping your stupid face weekly

Old Dude
12-01-2010, 08:14 AM
I agree with about half of the article. He makes a very good point about the youth on offense and the need for reps. Most of us know that already.

I think he's a little over-optimistic about Tebow and Moreno. I haven't seen anything out of Tebow that says he'll displace Orton anytime soon. It may happen, but that's pure speculation. I haven't seen anything out of Moreno that says he's an "outstanding back" in this offense or any other. Good? Yes. Outstanding? No. He has durability issues, fumbles too much, lacks breakaway or outside speed and isn't big enough to break tackles. He has fairly good speed, fairly good strength, fairly good vision and he's a very good receiver. If he'd been a late first or second round pick, I'd be very happy with him. But we paid more than that when we needed more help on defense.

I think he's also over-optimistic about Haggan and Hunter. Good run stoppers? Really? We've been getting torched almost all year on outside runs and these guys are part of the reason.

I disagree with the whole race issue regarding Hillis. But I agree that at the time, it didn't seem like such a bad idea, given that we'd spent such a high pick on Moreno. I still don't think Hillis would be putting up good numbers behind this O-Line. Hardly anyone would.

I agree with his assessment of the D-Line, the Safeties and the draft priorities, but most of these are no-brainers.

As far as the whole "rebuild" process is concerned, it's speculative to say what would have happened if the offense had remained intact. For one thing, we would not have had as many draft picks to work with. So you have to take those out of the equation.

Ben Hamilton was a warrior for years but did need to be replaced. Brandon Marshall was a basket case. Cutler still throws tons of interceptions and Chicago's current success has a lot more to do with its D than with its QB.
Trading Scheff was probably a mistake. If we'd kept the same people (putting aside the butterfly effect), we would still have to deal with the injuries to Clady, Kuper and Harris. We would still be missing our best pass rusher (and the league's sack leader). I'm not at all sure things we be much rosier. I do think that Shanahan was a great gameday coach and he would have pulled out a couple more wins on that basis alone, but I'm not at all sure his personnel decisions would have been that much better.

bendog
12-01-2010, 08:23 AM
I'm not aware of shanny trading the 20 pick for the 40 pick. The guy made some weird draft reaches esp early on, but it's grossly unfair to compare him to McD's clusterfk. You can look yourself to see what became of that pick, but it addressed one of the conserns in the blog.

Shanny's last team rushed for 4.8 yds per attempt and 116 yds per game, which was well below the usual, but puts this current group to shame, and please lets not compare injuries as both teams had that issue. It's personnel and scheme.

For the life of him, Shanny couldn't find a dcoord who could adapt to the personnel he had. It was a downward spiral since Robinson's squad aged out (and some of the FA's were acquired via violating cap rules). McD had one, and couldn't help himself from helping the guy so much he moved onto another organization ... whose defense improved this year while ours got worse.

lostknight
12-01-2010, 08:27 AM
So let me see if I have this straight. Anyone who objected to the Hillis trade was racist, and a idiot, because the national media didn't recognize Hillis's potential - even though the fans did. And any fan who questions this teams direction - if we are on a upswing or a downswing - are crying little girls.

Niiice.

TonyR
12-01-2010, 08:28 AM
...and Nolan being fired...

Why oh why do people keep repeating this myth?

vancejohnson82
12-01-2010, 08:28 AM
TJ,

I disagree with one point you made...actually a few but one in particular.

Are you arguing that Hillis is head and shoulders above what Anderson and Droughns were? I don't know about that. If he can do it for another few years (like they couldnt) than I'll agree...for all we know he gets injured again and is labeled as a liability

RaiderH8r
12-01-2010, 08:30 AM
You seem to forget that Hillis was about 5th string until our RBs started going down like 9 pins. He was behind studs like Pittman, Pope, Torain, and Aldridge. You could argue that Shanahan didn't even 'try to showcase the guy' until his hand was well and truly forced.

Where he was on the depth chart became irrelevant once he got on the field and freight trained his way through defenses and became a productive, hard nosed player with a knack for grinding out tough yards as well as breaking 20+ yd runs. Anybody who was watching him during his breakout year was stoked to have the guy finally toting the ball. After all of the Torain, Tatum, and other knick knack paddywhack RBs who had promise but fell flat on the field Hillis is a guy who nobody picked to start or thought had a shot of getting the ball but when his number was called for duty he stepped up and made the best of it. McKid flat out ignored Hillis' talent and ability, never putting him in a position to succeed. And when McKid's self fulfilling prophecy came to fruition, after a staggering 13 carries no less, McKid shipped him and picks for Brady f'ing Quinn. Intelligence told me that Hillis was misused, foresight told me that it would be an awful trade and hindsight just makes me want to puke in my f'ing hat over it. Moreno, for all his talents, runs the ball like a pussy. He goes down at first contact, is slow and soft to the hole, and he can't move the pile and Moreno could open a bakery with all of his turnovers.

Mile High Shack
12-01-2010, 08:32 AM
I thought that was a poorly thought out article that only someone who is still drinking the Josh McDaniels Kool-Aid could truly appreciate.


Point 1: Broncos fans are dumb and spoiled

This seems to be the first place people go when someone disagrees with the idea that Josh is a worthwhile coach who we just need to be "patient" with before he lays the magic on us. This isn't a well reasoned point. It's just pouting because everyone doesn't agree with you.


Point 2: The media is writing bad things about Josh. The media sucks!

The media is writing poor things about Josh because poor things are happening on the field. This isn't .500 team that just had a couple bad breaks. This is a .250 team that gets beat by blow-outs at home to division rivals. What sort of narrative does one imagine the media is going to construct given what they have to work with? Frankly, the local media would LOVE to write positive things about the team. Life if much easier for local media when they get to be buddies with the local team. For the large part, they're not hunting for bad things to say. And the national media isn't going to pay attention to Denver unless it's either doing really well or really poorly. That's just life.

Point 3: (The worst point of all) People only say McDaniels is a terrible personnel guy in hindsight.

The exact quote: "The most frequent charge against McDaniels is that heís a terrible personnel guy. I think thatís hogwash, aided by a lot of hindsight. There has really been no transaction that seemed egregiously bad in the moment, where somebody knowledgeable would say that it made absolutely no sense." The only thing I can guess is that the guy only gets his news and opinions from rose colored glasses sites. There have been complaints about Josh's moves all along. Most of the time these complaints would be shouted down and called trolls. But the questions were there, whether it was trading for Alphonso, trading Hillis for Quinn, trading a fourth for Maroney. And if hindsight isn't the time to judge a coaches moves, then I don't know what is.

Point 4: Trading Hillis seemed like a good deal at the time, and people only liked him because he is white

Anyone who believes this is a douche. Hillis has put up 10 TDs this year. I can find the post this past August where I said he'd put up as much, and that was when he was a third string nobody on that roster. I don't care about his color, I care about his ability. The guy is a rare talent - a freak of nature. Anyone could easily see this without too much strain. And we traded him away for a guy who has absolutely zero impact. I cannot take anyone seriously who thinks even at this late stage that insinuating people who believed in Hillis only did so because they are racists. He writes "You canít possibly convince me otherwise, because as a player, heís not too different from Reuben Droughns or Mike Anderson." What a douche. First because the only reason he won't be convinced otherwise is because he won't admit that he was wrong all along. And second, because he couldn't see the clear difference between what Peyton Hillis brings on any given down vs. waht Reuben Droughns or Mike Anderson bring. It's like not being able to tell the difference between the sun and the rain. The difference was right there on display on our own turf. If you couldn't see it, that's not on the "dumb, spoiled, racist" Broncos fans who could.

This article is trash and nothing but pouty BS.

It gets better when he doubles back on his point about the media and justifies the Hillis trade because Peter King, Mike Silver, John Clayton, or Bill Williamson didn't rant about the trade at the time. This is a hilarious walk back of his point about the media narrative.

Point 5: I loved Alphonso Smith coming out of Wake Forest, therefore this pick was well worth the trade

*face palm*

Point 6: I argue about this on Twitter a lot, and I think that Broncos fans should just lower their expectations

*face palm*

Point 7: Here's the rational question: Do you really want to flush the last 2 years, and start over again?

Here's the rational answer: with both hands and shouting the poop down until it swirls out of existence. This isn't about a rebuild. This is about the failure to rebuild. This is about going .250 in the age of parity.

Point 8: The Denver Broncos donít deserve to win by virtue of being the Denver Broncos.

Whatever. I didn't root my ass off some 30 odd years believing this trash. The Broncos deserve to win because I want them to, and anybody who says differently can talk to the hand. This is sports, and my only interest is seeing my team win a championship and enjoying the ride along the way.

Point 9: The players actually look good when they're running the script. This obviously means that they are good when they know "exactly" what they're supposed to be doing.

What a terrible point. This only shows how poorly coached they are. If you're players only play at a high level when they're running off a script, then they need to get into sitcoms and commercials, not the professional football league. But I personally think this is beside the point. I think the playcalling is good when they're going off the script. I think it's some of the worst and most directionless I've seen once they go off of the script. That, IMO, is the source of the problem, not necessarily the players. This point was not even touched in the post.

Point 10: There's no logical reason to fire McDaniels

*face palm*

I can't even address this without questioning the sanity of the author. The only way someone could believe that there is no logical reason to fire McDaniels at this point. We're in the middle of the worst stretch in the history of the franchise - certainly the worst in the modern history. There's absolutely no indication that things are going to get better. We're still just as lost right now as we were a year ago from now. If we started bad, and then the team pulled together for a late season push, that would be one thing. And sure, that may still happen, though I'd think it's too little too late at this point. But to completely dismiss a 5-16 stretch of football and say there is no logical reason to fire the architect of it, (not to mention the worst home loss in Denver Broncos football history to the Oakland Raiders) - that's just plain ignoring what's happening on the field. I understand that this person thinks that keeping McDaniels will equate to future wins, but this position is much more illogical than the idea that he should be canned.

Point 11: We just need defensive talent and we're set to go all the way to the Superbowl

This is the point that I made about the 2008 Denver Broncos. I've been laughed up and down the discussion board for having this take. Two years later, the people who were bashing me for that take are now pulling it out as "logical and reasoned."

I love this stuff...

thread over

orangenblue
12-01-2010, 08:34 AM
So we should cut an unproven head coach with NO head coaching experience more slack? Even when he's trying to run the Patriots offense minus a 3 time superbowl champion, 2 time superbowl MVP, hall of fame QB?

lostknight
12-01-2010, 08:34 AM
I thought that was a poorly thought out article that only someone who is still drinking the Josh McDaniels Kool-Aid could truly appreciate.


Point 1: Broncos fans are dumb and spoiled

This seems to be the first place people go when someone disagrees with the idea that Josh is a worthwhile coach who we just need to be "patient" with before he lays the magic on us. This isn't a well reasoned point. It's just pouting because everyone doesn't agree with you.


Point 2: The media is writing bad things about Josh. The media sucks!

The media is writing poor things about Josh because poor things are happening on the field. This isn't .500 team that just had a couple bad breaks. This is a .250 team that gets beat by blow-outs at home to division rivals. What sort of narrative does one imagine the media is going to construct given what they have to work with? Frankly, the local media would LOVE to write positive things about the team. Life if much easier for local media when they get to be buddies with the local team. For the large part, they're not hunting for bad things to say. And the national media isn't going to pay attention to Denver unless it's either doing really well or really poorly. That's just life.

Point 3: (The worst point of all) People only say McDaniels is a terrible personnel guy in hindsight.

The exact quote: "The most frequent charge against McDaniels is that heís a terrible personnel guy. I think thatís hogwash, aided by a lot of hindsight. There has really been no transaction that seemed egregiously bad in the moment, where somebody knowledgeable would say that it made absolutely no sense." The only thing I can guess is that the guy only gets his news and opinions from rose colored glasses sites. There have been complaints about Josh's moves all along. Most of the time these complaints would be shouted down and called trolls. But the questions were there, whether it was trading for Alphonso, trading Hillis for Quinn, trading a fourth for Maroney. And if hindsight isn't the time to judge a coaches moves, then I don't know what is.

Point 4: Trading Hillis seemed like a good deal at the time, and people only liked him because he is white

Anyone who believes this is a douche. Hillis has put up 10 TDs this year. I can find the post this past August where I said he'd put up as much, and that was when he was a third string nobody on that roster. I don't care about his color, I care about his ability. The guy is a rare talent - a freak of nature. Anyone could easily see this without too much strain. And we traded him away for a guy who has absolutely zero impact. I cannot take anyone seriously who thinks even at this late stage that insinuating people who believed in Hillis only did so because they are racists. He writes "You canít possibly convince me otherwise, because as a player, heís not too different from Reuben Droughns or Mike Anderson." What a douche. First because the only reason he won't be convinced otherwise is because he won't admit that he was wrong all along. And second, because he couldn't see the clear difference between what Peyton Hillis brings on any given down vs. waht Reuben Droughns or Mike Anderson bring. It's like not being able to tell the difference between the sun and the rain. The difference was right there on display on our own turf. If you couldn't see it, that's not on the "dumb, spoiled, racist" Broncos fans who could.

This article is trash and nothing but pouty BS.

It gets better when he doubles back on his point about the media and justifies the Hillis trade because Peter King, Mike Silver, John Clayton, or Bill Williamson didn't rant about the trade at the time. This is a hilarious walk back of his point about the media narrative.

Point 5: I loved Alphonso Smith coming out of Wake Forest, therefore this pick was well worth the trade

*face palm*

Point 6: I argue about this on Twitter a lot, and I think that Broncos fans should just lower their expectations

*face palm*

Point 7: Here's the rational question: Do you really want to flush the last 2 years, and start over again?

Here's the rational answer: with both hands and shouting the poop down until it swirls out of existence. This isn't about a rebuild. This is about the failure to rebuild. This is about going .250 in the age of parity.

Point 8: The Denver Broncos donít deserve to win by virtue of being the Denver Broncos.

Whatever. I didn't root my ass off some 30 odd years believing this trash. The Broncos deserve to win because I want them to, and anybody who says differently can talk to the hand. This is sports, and my only interest is seeing my team win a championship and enjoying the ride along the way.

Point 9: The players actually look good when they're running the script. This obviously means that they are good when they know "exactly" what they're supposed to be doing.

What a terrible point. This only shows how poorly coached they are. If you're players only play at a high level when they're running off a script, then they need to get into sitcoms and commercials, not the professional football league. But I personally think this is beside the point. I think the playcalling is good when they're going off the script. I think it's some of the worst and most directionless I've seen once they go off of the script. That, IMO, is the source of the problem, not necessarily the players. This point was not even touched in the post.

Point 10: There's no logical reason to fire McDaniels

*face palm*

I can't even address this without questioning the sanity of the author. The only way someone could believe that there is no logical reason to fire McDaniels at this point. We're in the middle of the worst stretch in the history of the franchise - certainly the worst in the modern history. There's absolutely no indication that things are going to get better. We're still just as lost right now as we were a year ago from now. If we started bad, and then the team pulled together for a late season push, that would be one thing. And sure, that may still happen, though I'd think it's too little too late at this point. But to completely dismiss a 5-16 stretch of football and say there is no logical reason to fire the architect of it, (not to mention the worst home loss in Denver Broncos football history to the Oakland Raiders) - that's just plain ignoring what's happening on the field. I understand that this person thinks that keeping McDaniels will equate to future wins, but this position is much more illogical than the idea that he should be canned.

Point 11: We just need defensive talent and we're set to go all the way to the Superbowl

This is the point that I made about the 2008 Denver Broncos. I've been laughed up and down the discussion board for having this take. Two years later, the people who were bashing me for that take are now pulling it out as "logical and reasoned."

I love this stuff...

Mad props. I admit to being on the fence - with some wild gyrations with whatever newest McScandal is out there. The whole "script issue" emphasizes a couple of key facts
1) When the McSystem is on, it's damn near impossible to stop. Opposing defenses don't understand it.
2) Once you get out of scripted plays, it's damn near impossible to start. Our offense doesn't understand it.
3) McDaniels has systematically shifted the blame for (2) to players. Hence the constant grousing that players like Hillis were too dumb to understand it. As is no surprise to anyone watching this head coach, McDaniels refuses to adapt his system for the talent he has, rather then what he has imagined.

There is no better example of this then the drives last sunday in the 4th quarter. The momentum was solid, the (D) didn't know what was happening, and for the most part, it was the same plays that were in the script from the first two drives. Then we get to the last drive, when we ask a player that we know has sucky hands to make a critical catch (which he obviously doesn't), and Orton makes a horrible pass. Game over.

Inkana7
12-01-2010, 08:35 AM
TJ,

I disagree with one point you made...actually a few but one in particular.

Are you arguing that Hillis is head and shoulders above what Anderson and Droughns were? I don't know about that. If he can do it for another few years (like they couldnt) than I'll agree...for all we know he gets injured again and is labeled as a liability

He's a 5 tool player, Vance.

5. TOOL. PLAYER.

RaiderH8r
12-01-2010, 08:36 AM
So we should cut an unproven head coach with NO head coaching experience more slack? Even when he's trying to run the Patriots offense minus a 3 time superbowl champion, 2 time superbowl MVP, hall of fame QB?

Whose offensive wizardry can't figure out how to utilize the talents he has at hand instead of insisting on putting square pegs in round holes.

Christ, McKid's got his head so far up his own ass that lump in his throat is his f'ing nose.

vancejohnson82
12-01-2010, 08:46 AM
He's a 5 tool player, Vance.

5. TOOL. PLAYER.

oh Christ...back to the "tool" argument

thecool
12-01-2010, 08:54 AM
This guy was off to a good start but I stopped reading when he defended the Peyton Hillis trade.

How surprising... a Broncos fan cannot fathom the fact that someone explains the Hillis trade from the point in time it was made.

Rohirrim
12-01-2010, 08:56 AM
These are some of the toughest times I've ever seen in Broncosland. Probably even worse than when Reeves drafted Maddox, or the 49er SB blowout, or Wade Phillips, or the Jville loss. Frankly, I don't know what to believe. On one hand I get this picture of McDaniels as some kind of Machiavellian little Hitler with all sorts of personality issues who has a completely out of control ego and doesn't have a clue what he's doing. On the other hand is the picture of a guy who came into the middle of a ****storm and doesn't have a strong organization behind him, backing him up, so he's taking the crap for everything and everybody. I don't know if one of those scenarios is true, both are true, or both are partially true, or only one is true. Everybody involved, from Cutler, to Bowlen, to the assistant coaches, to reporters, to players has their own take, and their own issues. By now, I think Joe Ellis should have stepped forward and taken control of this whole thing, but it appears that either Josh is in charge, or is being left to dangle like a pinata. I don't know which.

It's very hard to support Josh anymore. The ass kicking by the Raiders was the first, real tolling of the bell for me. I was actually glad to see Cutler leave, so that didn't bother me. Sheffler was like, meh. Dude couldn't stay on the field anyway. I despised the Hillis deal, but mostly because I hate Quinn. The Fonz trade was stupid, and IMO the Tebow drafting was even stupider, but I also realize that the draft is a gamble and the new regime, under Josh, was making some bold moves and taking some big risks. The whole Nolan thing still remains a mystery because there are people with axes to grind on both sides and I'm not sure which version is true. Nolan has a pretty healthy ego himself, as far as I can see.

The only thing I'm left with is the suffering of the fan watching my team get embarassed on the field, not to mention the embarassments off the field. I see some improvements. Orton is solid. The receiving corps that Josh has put together is awesome (and I'm glad that ass clown Marshall isn't on it). We have a young Oline that I feel confident will be a real strength in the future (Ryan Harris' fragility notwithstanding). Is Barone the guy to coach it? I'm not sure. They've had some real problems this season, but some of those might be due to injuries (Harris) and having to patch holes. Moreno is a great back (IMO), and will only show it more and more as the line gels. TE is a big issue and should be fixed in the draft or FA.

The elephant in the room, as far as the D goes, is the absence of Doom. That's no fault of Josh's. What would our record be if Doom was healthy this year? I don't know. Key players can make a huge difference. I remember when Shanahan lost Nalen for most of a season. The running game went in the tank and we were losing games week after week. Mike couldn't coach around it. How many wins is Doom (and even Ayers) worth? Well, if there is one factor that is losing us games this year, it's the lack of pass rush. This D has held down some pretty good backs this year, but couldn't stop some average QBs from taking us apart. Which leads to the secondary.

In the first place, no secondary is good enough to stop the pass without a pass rush backing them up. If given time enough, any pro WR will get open. That's a fact. Champ is not the Champ of old, and Dawkins is done. Yes, we have to draft a safety, but without some kind of pass rush up front, it won't matter. I feel very good about the LBs. Definitely, we'll need to bring in some backups (or improve at OLB) but improving the line will improve everything else.

As hard as it is to contemplate, I'm for holding the reins and letting Josh fill out his contract. Ride it out. It's going to be a rough ride, no doubt about it, but changing everything now basically means clearing the decks and starting from scratch, including all new coaching staff, new identity, new schemes, and who knows what else. What if the next guy comes in and wants to trade Royal or Decker for a NT? A new guy comes in and there is a whole new raft of expectations that the new guy will feel pressured to respond to. It's not like the pressure will relax. It all comes down to winning games. Do I feel confident that Josh can do it, and build a pass rush this off season? No. Frankly, I think he's on borrowed time. I guess I look at it as sometimes the storm comes in and you simply pull down your hat, pull your collar up, shove your hands in your pockets, and keep trudging, waiting for the sun.

PRBronco
12-01-2010, 08:57 AM
That guy has another good blog up today, regarding Adam Schein's McD attack. Good read for Broncos fans.

Hamrob
12-01-2010, 09:09 AM
What a ramble. I think he's wrong about Broncos Fans and is missing the real point:

We fired Shanny because his team could not score points and could not stop teams from scoring more points. That team was rebuilding. We had a young QB, young WR's, a young TE, a young oline etc. (sound familiar)? Our defense sucked.

So, why did we fire Shanny? He took us to an AFC championship game, before he started to rebuild...then, when the offense started to look really good...he was fired.

Using the same philosophy...if you fired Shanny while he was rebuilding and getting teams to finish 8-8...why wouldn't you fire McD for building an offense...that was already pretty good...and doing nothing about a poor defense...and finishing up at anything less than 8-8.

Say what you want about rebuilding. McD took a good offense...and blew it up, only to rebuild the offense and make it a pretty good offense. He's done zilch to address the glaring weakness which is our defense...nothing! So, why should Broncos fans believe that he can get it right and build a defense that can stop teams from scoring 30 points a game? Don't you think that's alot of blind faith?

And, considering the drama queen that McD is and has become...why would any intelligent Broncos Fan have faith in Josh McDaniels?

bendog
12-01-2010, 09:32 AM
Rohirrim:

I agree that there's no real logic to firing the guy now. It is what it is. If he's a total fail, we'll be looking at 2 or 3 wins in 2012 and we're already at 4 or 5 ... 6 at best. Injuries imo are an excuse. Teams with little depth are hurt more than deep teams. No one has shown Den this year has had abnormal injuries compared to the general average. I agree that losing your best defensive player, and really the only player capable of creating turnovers or game changing plays, is huge. But, McD's had two drafts to find a defensive impact player, and he's failed. Is he going to get better at personnel? Maybe. But firing him won't necesssarily make it better ... UNLESS BOWLEN BROUGHT IN AN ENTIRE FRONT OFFICE,and Bowlen shows absolutely no intention of doing that despite saying he wouldn't give another coach control like shanny had... and then proceeded to give the same control to McD. People may conclude Bowlens senile or drunk, but I don't. I think he's motivated to cut costs in anticipation of the lock out.

I thought Moreno would be a nice NFL back coming out of GA, and I still think so. Drafted too high, but .... I don't see anything to conclude he's an "excellent" back though. If he puts up Travis Henry numbers I'll be mildly surprised.

PRBRONCO: As for a new blog by the guy, keep it. If his answer is Den fans are spoiled, he's an idiot. TJ said it all.

Chris
12-01-2010, 09:41 AM
That guy has another good blog up today, regarding Adam Schein's McD attack. Good read for Broncos fans.

Link?

TonyR
12-01-2010, 09:43 AM
Anybody hear Schefter on Mike & Mike this morning? He said he thinks there's very little chance McD gets fired. The two main points he made have been discussed extensively here: (1) that there's no way Bowlen is willing to pay 3 head coaches next year, particularly since there may be no football, and (2) that bringing in a new coach brings up personnel change questions most notably regarding the future of Tim Tebow.

PRBronco
12-01-2010, 09:47 AM
Link?

http://onemanfootball.com/2010/11/30/debunktion-junction-comes-to-adam-scheins-county/

DrFate
12-01-2010, 09:52 AM
The two main points he made have been discussed extensively here: (1) that there's no way Bowlen is willing to pay 3 head coaches next year, particularly since there may be no football,

I think this is exceedingly true. Combined with the fact that mcDaniels has surrounded himself with JV caliber assistants - who would Bowlen promote?

zdoor
12-01-2010, 09:56 AM
Why oh why do people keep repeating this myth?

OK... Mutually parting ways. Is that better? The point was they couldn't work together because McD wanted more control over the defensive scheme...

Dr. Broncenstein
12-01-2010, 09:58 AM
TJ wins an internet.

colonelbeef
12-01-2010, 09:59 AM
"Really good pile of excuses as to why this crap team is acceptable to me"

Fixed the thread title for you

RaiderH8r
12-01-2010, 10:35 AM
Anybody hear Schefter on Mike & Mike this morning? He said he thinks there's very little chance McD gets fired. The two main points he made have been discussed extensively here: (1) that there's no way Bowlen is willing to pay 3 head coaches next year, particularly since there may be no football, and (2) that bringing in a new coach brings up personnel change questions most notably regarding the future of Tim Tebow.

And like it or lump it, from a financial standpoint, Tebow is the only Bronco goose laying anything except a steaming turd.

Taco John
12-01-2010, 10:48 AM
taco john, though i agree with much of what you posted, i have to condemn your post because it features a middle aged man using the phrase "talk to the hand" in common conversation.

how dare you call me middle aged!

I'm not 50!

Taco John
12-01-2010, 10:50 AM
You seem to forget that Hillis was about 5th string until our RBs started going down like 9 pins. He was behind studs like Pittman, Pope, Torain, and Aldridge. You could argue that Shanahan didn't even 'try to showcase the guy' until his hand was well and truly forced.

I didn't forget that point at all. I don't see it as even remotely valid. Terrell Davis didn't start out as a #1 back. He had to work his way up the roster by taking advantage of opportunities. That's what Hillis has done.

DarkHorse30
12-01-2010, 11:06 AM
The Hillis trade for B. Quinn is looked at with a lot of scrutiny, and I join the club WHEN I see Hillis break big runs and/or gets 5 when he should have only got 2. Less as much when he can't get the critical yardage when the game is on the line (-2 and 0 yards on his last two carries when Cleveland needed a TD in the final minutes to ice the game)

Hillis apparently had trouble blocking when he was in Denver. When you have a guy that isn't going to see the field, he is expendable. Denver needed a backup QB and Hillis for Quinn seemed like a win at the time. Many Hillis fans (me included) did not want him gone, but he wasn't going to play; Lendale White was going to be ahead of him for short yardage....and then he was injured

baja
12-01-2010, 11:16 AM
how dare you call me middle aged!

I'm not 50!

Unless you plan on living to One hundred 40 is middle age

bendog
12-01-2010, 11:18 AM
:rofl: LenDale White. You said Lendale White.

<img src="http://www.terezowens.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/lendale-white.JPG">

strafen
12-01-2010, 11:24 AM
"Really good pile of excuses as to why this crap team is acceptable to me"

Fixed the thread title for youThis!

Taco John
12-01-2010, 11:31 AM
Unless you plan on living to One hundred 40 is middle age

I'm 35. And I plan on living to 120.

TonyR
12-01-2010, 11:32 AM
Terrell Davis didn't start out as a #1 back.

Not to nitpick but if you're referring to regular season TD had 20 carries for 70 yards his very first game. Rod Bernstine had 12 carries for 38 yards. TD was the de facto #1 RB from the very start of his career.

DarkHorse30
12-01-2010, 01:57 PM
Not to nitpick but if you're referring to regular season TD had 20 carries for 70 yards his very first game. Rod Bernstine had 12 carries for 38 yards. TD was the de facto #1 RB from the very start of his career.

I would also add that if TD is not elected to the HOF, then it (the building in Ohio) is even more of a joke than I thought it was. NO RB that I have ever seen was more of an automatic 4 yards/p/c than Terrell.....nobody.

Inkana7
12-01-2010, 01:58 PM
I would also add that if TD is not elected to the HOF, then it (the building in Ohio) is even more of a joke than I thought it was. NO RB that I have ever seen was more of an automatic 4 yards/p/c than Terrell.....nobody.

Man I miss that O-Line, too. It's arguable that they were the MVPs of our Super Bowl years. Not John, not TD, not any of the receivers or Sharpe or anyone on defense. The O-Line.

Rabb
12-01-2010, 01:59 PM
I would also add that if TD is not elected to the HOF, then it (the building in Ohio) is even more of a joke than I thought it was. NO RB that I have ever seen was more of an automatic 4 yards/p/c than Terrell.....nobody.

I'd even go as far as saying he had the greatest playoff run for a RB ever...the guy just could not be stopped even when other teams KNEW he was getting it

Rohirrim
12-01-2010, 02:26 PM
Man I miss that O-Line, too. It's arguable that they were the MVPs of our Super Bowl years. Not John, not TD, not any of the receivers or Sharpe or anyone on defense. The O-Line.

That might have been one of the best all time.

zdoor
12-01-2010, 02:33 PM
The good ole days....

Tombstone RJ
12-02-2010, 09:35 AM
Taco, you didn't refute much in the article. You simply danced around each of the arguments the author was making.

For instance: The script. The author's point is that a young team with two young offensive linemen (one of which has played 3 games at his position) is going to struggle in execution. You want to pin that on coaching, yet no coach in the damn league is going to get a rookie-laden offensive line to execute consistently. Not to mention that the line in question didn't have a single snap in the preseason at full health (hell it was like 9 weeks into the season before they were at full health). You can disagree with that premise, but you have to address it. Simply saying "well that's just coaching" is hardly convincing. Show me a counter example where a team has consistently performed under those conditions.

I think your expectations (and the expectation of Broncos Country on the whole) are unbelievably out of whack. I stand by my assertion, the homers on this board simply have never accepted about bad those last 3 Shannahan teams were. They weren't good teams. Those teams were mentally and physically weak.

Everything has come home to roost. I have no idea if McDaniels is the answer (time will tell). The only thing I know is that to expect the Broncos to magically start winning with no real rebuilding phase is pure fantasy.

Rep! TJ is so anti McD he refuses to accept anything positive or insightful. It's sad, but it's just more of the same ole same ole.

go_broncos
12-02-2010, 09:45 AM
Rep! TJ is so anti McD he refuses to accept anything positive or insightful. It's sad, but it's just more of the same ole same ole.

Well..Every fan should be anti Mcd.
He ruined the team and traded good players and drafted ****ty players to replace them.
His schemes and play calling are the worst.
I don't see anything positive with this team.

bowtown
12-02-2010, 09:52 AM
Well..Every fan should be anti Mcd.
He ruined the team and traded good players and drafted ****ty players to replace them.
His schemes and play calling are the worst.
I don't see anything positive with this team.

No kidding? I always took you to be a McDaniels guy. You should go post this in every other thread. I'm worried people are getting the wrong impression about you.

HAT
12-02-2010, 09:56 AM
Well..Every fan should be anti Mcd.
He ruined the team and traded good players and drafted ****ty players to replace them.
His schemes and play calling are the worst.
I don't see anything positive with this team.

Is he Evil and do u hate him?

HAT
12-02-2010, 09:56 AM
No kidding? I always took you to be a McDaniels guy. You should go post this in every other thread. I'm worried people are getting the wrong impression about you.

:rofl::thumbs:

Tombstone RJ
12-02-2010, 10:02 AM
Well..Every fan should be anti Mcd.
He ruined the team and traded good players and drafted ****ty players to replace them.
His schemes and play calling are the worst.
I don't see anything positive with this team.

I'll respond to this post but let me say this first: it's obvious you don't like McD and have an anti-McD agenda which is your right as a fan. That being said, it's also obvious that you refuse to accept any sound or meaningful argument that defends McD and the meant grinder he was thrown into.

First, the team was not very good to begin with when McD stepped in. I've said it in many other posts but I'll say it again because you are a reactionary poster who refuses to see the big picture: Shanny's Broncos under Jay Cutler were a dysfunctional team with prima donnas on offense and zero talent on defense. Pat Bowlen and Joe Ellis obviously did not know the state of the Broncos team because they relied heavily on Shanahan to run everything top to bottom. Consequently they brought in an ill prepared young coach who yes, made some mistakes but also was probably not prepared by Bowlen or Ellis for the disunity of the team. Couple that with the fact that Bowlen did not hire a seasoned and experienced GM to help McD, and the franchise as a whole is now going through a very difficult transition.This is JMHO.

So, IMHO, for the long term success of the Broncos, I think it's counterproductive to fire McD at this point in time. It's makes much more sense to get McD some real help in the front office and it's up to Bowlen and Ellis to do this.

So, in let me summarize my position: Pat Bowlen and Joe Ellis are much more at fault for the state of the current Broncos. McD while young and inexperienced, has made mistakes too, but it's even more counterproductive to scapegoat him and start over yet again. I say keep McD as the HC at least through next year, get him some help in the front office, and then lets see where the Broncos stand.

NFLBRONCO
12-02-2010, 10:39 AM
I'll respond to this post but let me say this first: it's obvious you don't like McD and have an anti-McD agenda which is your right as a fan. That being said, it's also obvious that you refuse to accept any sound or meaningful argument that defends McD and the meant grinder he was thrown into.

First, the team was not very good to begin with when McD stepped in. I've said it in many other posts but I'll say it again because you are a reactionary poster who refuses to see the big picture: Shanny's Broncos under Jay Cutler were a dysfunctional team with prima donnas on offense and zero talent on defense. Pat Bowlen and Joe Ellis obviously did not know the state of the Broncos team because they relied heavily on Shanahan to run everything top to bottom. Consequently they brought in an ill prepared young coach who yes, made some mistakes but also was probably not prepared by Bowlen or Ellis for the disunity of the team. Couple that with the fact that Bowlen did not hire a seasoned and experienced GM to help McD, and the franchise as a whole is now going through a very difficult transition.This is JMHO.

So, IMHO, for the long term success of the Broncos, I think it's counterproductive to fire McD at this point in time. It's makes much more sense to get McD some real help in the front office and it's up to Bowlen and Ellis to do this.

So, in let me summarize my position: Pat Bowlen and Joe Ellis are much more at fault for the state of the current Broncos. McD while young and inexperienced, has made mistakes too, but it's even more counterproductive to scapegoat him and start over yet again. I say keep McD as the HC at least through next year, get him some help in the front office, and then lets see where the Broncos stand.

I agree with you 95% excellent job btw.

I felt the same way two weeks ago but, I'm on the let's move on phase now. Why is because hearing the fans in the stands I think the McD's bridge has burned beyond repair.

I'm not sure even Bowlen hiring a new GM will help at this point because McD's is still here.

Only issue that concerns me with a move now is will Bowlen hire a top notch FO with McD's and Shanny still on the books or do McD's part II.

broncocalijohn
12-02-2010, 10:43 AM
No kidding? I always took you to be a McDaniels guy. You should go post this in every other thread. I'm worried people are getting the wrong impression about you.

This is the guy (go_broncos) who should have been banned for trolling. What will he say if McD ever turned it around or we got a new coach? While Jhns was irratating, at least he would put more than a few sentences together to put hhis opinion out. Why this turd is allowed to continue is beyond me. Maybe he is really the firemikeshanahan.com guy from a few years back.

TonyR
12-02-2010, 10:45 AM
While Jhns was irratating...

What happened with jhns? Did I miss some drama?

bowtown
12-02-2010, 10:53 AM
What happened with jhns? Did I miss some drama?

He was banned, that's all that matters. Did he desrve it? Maybe not for that particular offense. But come on... he deserved it.

Rohirrim
12-02-2010, 10:54 AM
Hopefully, go_broncos and strafen are next. ;D

Dedhed
12-02-2010, 10:54 AM
Wonderful, you found the only positively spun Broncos article in existence.

This team sucks and has progressively gotten worse. There is no way to spin it.
Calling a spade a spade isn't "spin". In fact it's the exact opposite.

strafen
12-02-2010, 10:58 AM
Man I miss that O-Line, too. It's arguable that they were the MVPs of our Super Bowl years. Not John, not TD, not any of the receivers or Sharpe or anyone on defense. The O-Line.You were 12 freakin' years old then.
What are you talking about?

Dedhed
12-02-2010, 10:58 AM
Here’s the rational question, to me. Do you really want to flush the last 2 years, and start over again? If you do,understand that that means a whole new program, new schemes, new personnel requirements for those schemes, and, consequently, more losing. You’re suddenly running the risk of becoming a franchise that loses all the time and changes coaches every three years, never setting a consistent direction. We’ve already seen this on defense, but it’s been every year, and it’s unquestionably ugly. Think of haphazard, direction-less rebuilding as equal to 5 defensive coordinators in 5 years.

This is the most important part. I can't imagine what the people calling for McDaniels' head will say if the Broncos do fire Mcdaniels and go the way of the Raiders and Chiefs and become mired in decades of losing football by failing to commit to a rebuild.

We've seen what that yields on one side of the ball, I guess whiners want to see that across the whole franchise.

strafen
12-02-2010, 11:05 AM
Hopefully, go_broncos and strafen are next. ;DAnd there, there will be nothing but homers left.
Dreaming and discussing how great McDaniels is, how tainted the legacy of this franchise was ok, because you guys love him.

There will be people here scratching each others back and feeling all fuzzy about it

There will be threads talking and discussing how at 1-9 the broncos could still have a chance of making it to the play-offs next year.
Everybody will be arguing that at 7-9 we could still get homefield advantage troughout the play-offs if we win out
There will be nobody to keep your reality in chech.
Nothing but delusion, and that folks, it's the ultimate board for a homer.
A dream come true...

Rohirrim
12-02-2010, 11:10 AM
And there, there will be nothing but homers left.
Dreaming and discussing how great McDaniels is, how tainted the legacy of this franchise was ok, because you guys love him.

There will be people here scratching each others back and feeling all fuzzy about it

There will be threads talking and discussing how at 1-9 the broncos could still have a chance of making it to the play-offs next year.
Everybody will be arguing that at 7-9 we could still get homefield advantage troughout the play-offs if we win out
There will be nobody to keep your reality in chech.
Nothing but delusion, and that folks, it's the ultimate board for a homer.
A dream come true...

Actually, I think Broncos fans are finally getting over a delusion. It's the delusion that Mike Shanahan perpetuated, year after year, that we were only a couple of pieces away from a return to the SB. We kept buying it and buying it and buying it, until finally, the whole thing collapsed for all to see in Mike's last season. And we could hide from the truth no more. It's only those who think that wreckage could be cleaned up in a year and half who are still deluded.

Taco John
12-02-2010, 02:40 PM
I thought that was a poorly thought out article that only someone who is still drinking the Josh McDaniels Kool-Aid could truly appreciate.


Point 1: Broncos fans are dumb and spoiled

This seems to be the first place people go when someone disagrees with the idea that Josh is a worthwhile coach who we just need to be "patient" with before he lays the magic on us. This isn't a well reasoned point. It's just pouting because everyone doesn't agree with you.


Point 2: The media is writing bad things about Josh. The media sucks!

The media is writing poor things about Josh because poor things are happening on the field. This isn't .500 team that just had a couple bad breaks. This is a .250 team that gets beat by blow-outs at home to division rivals. What sort of narrative does one imagine the media is going to construct given what they have to work with? Frankly, the local media would LOVE to write positive things about the team. Life if much easier for local media when they get to be buddies with the local team. For the large part, they're not hunting for bad things to say. And the national media isn't going to pay attention to Denver unless it's either doing really well or really poorly. That's just life.

Point 3: (The worst point of all) People only say McDaniels is a terrible personnel guy in hindsight.

The exact quote: "The most frequent charge against McDaniels is that heís a terrible personnel guy. I think thatís hogwash, aided by a lot of hindsight. There has really been no transaction that seemed egregiously bad in the moment, where somebody knowledgeable would say that it made absolutely no sense." The only thing I can guess is that the guy only gets his news and opinions from rose colored glasses sites. There have been complaints about Josh's moves all along. Most of the time these complaints would be shouted down and called trolls. But the questions were there, whether it was trading for Alphonso, trading Hillis for Quinn, trading a fourth for Maroney. And if hindsight isn't the time to judge a coaches moves, then I don't know what is.

Point 4: Trading Hillis seemed like a good deal at the time, and people only liked him because he is white

Anyone who believes this is a douche. Hillis has put up 10 TDs this year. I can find the post this past August where I said he'd put up as much, and that was when he was a third string nobody on that roster. I don't care about his color, I care about his ability. The guy is a rare talent - a freak of nature. Anyone could easily see this without too much strain. And we traded him away for a guy who has absolutely zero impact. I cannot take anyone seriously who thinks even at this late stage that insinuating people who believed in Hillis only did so because they are racists. He writes "You canít possibly convince me otherwise, because as a player, heís not too different from Reuben Droughns or Mike Anderson." What a douche. First because the only reason he won't be convinced otherwise is because he won't admit that he was wrong all along. And second, because he couldn't see the clear difference between what Peyton Hillis brings on any given down vs. waht Reuben Droughns or Mike Anderson bring. It's like not being able to tell the difference between the sun and the rain. The difference was right there on display on our own turf. If you couldn't see it, that's not on the "dumb, spoiled, racist" Broncos fans who could.

This article is trash and nothing but pouty BS.

It gets better when he doubles back on his point about the media and justifies the Hillis trade because Peter King, Mike Silver, John Clayton, or Bill Williamson didn't rant about the trade at the time. This is a hilarious walk back of his point about the media narrative.

Point 5: I loved Alphonso Smith coming out of Wake Forest, therefore this pick was well worth the trade

*face palm*

Point 6: I argue about this on Twitter a lot, and I think that Broncos fans should just lower their expectations

*face palm*

Point 7: Here's the rational question: Do you really want to flush the last 2 years, and start over again?

Here's the rational answer: with both hands and shouting the poop down until it swirls out of existence. This isn't about a rebuild. This is about the failure to rebuild. This is about going .250 in the age of parity.

Point 8: The Denver Broncos donít deserve to win by virtue of being the Denver Broncos.

Whatever. I didn't root my ass off some 30 odd years believing this trash. The Broncos deserve to win because I want them to, and anybody who says differently can talk to the hand. This is sports, and my only interest is seeing my team win a championship and enjoying the ride along the way.

Point 9: The players actually look good when they're running the script. This obviously means that they are good when they know "exactly" what they're supposed to be doing.

What a terrible point. This only shows how poorly coached they are. If you're players only play at a high level when they're running off a script, then they need to get into sitcoms and commercials, not the professional football league. But I personally think this is beside the point. I think the playcalling is good when they're going off the script. I think it's some of the worst and most directionless I've seen once they go off of the script. That, IMO, is the source of the problem, not necessarily the players. This point was not even touched in the post.

Point 10: There's no logical reason to fire McDaniels

*face palm*

I can't even address this without questioning the sanity of the author. The only way someone could believe that there is no logical reason to fire McDaniels at this point. We're in the middle of the worst stretch in the history of the franchise - certainly the worst in the modern history. There's absolutely no indication that things are going to get better. We're still just as lost right now as we were a year ago from now. If we started bad, and then the team pulled together for a late season push, that would be one thing. And sure, that may still happen, though I'd think it's too little too late at this point. But to completely dismiss a 5-16 stretch of football and say there is no logical reason to fire the architect of it, (not to mention the worst home loss in Denver Broncos football history to the Oakland Raiders) - that's just plain ignoring what's happening on the field. I understand that this person thinks that keeping McDaniels will equate to future wins, but this position is much more illogical than the idea that he should be canned.

Point 11: We just need defensive talent and we're set to go all the way to the Superbowl

This is the point that I made about the 2008 Denver Broncos. I've been laughed up and down the discussion board for having this take. Two years later, the people who were bashing me for that take are now pulling it out as "logical and reasoned."

I love this stuff...



LOL! The neg rep I received on this: "Just admit you're wrong and be done with it."

Now *thats* trolling!

Dedhed
12-02-2010, 02:48 PM
Not to nitpick but if you're referring to regular season TD had 20 carries for 70 yards his very first game. Rod Bernstine had 12 carries for 38 yards. TD was the de facto #1 RB from the very start of his career.
Don't bother Taco with reality, it irritates him.

jutang
12-02-2010, 03:51 PM
Hereís the rational question, to me. Do you really want to flush the last 2 years, and start over again? If you do,understand that that means a whole new program, new schemes, new personnel requirements for those schemes, and, consequently, more losing. Youíre suddenly running the risk of becoming a franchise that loses all the time and changes coaches every three years, never setting a consistent direction. Weíve already seen this on defense, but itís been every year, and itís unquestionably ugly. Think of haphazard, direction-less rebuilding as equal to 5 defensive coordinators in 5 years.

This is the most important part. I can't imagine what the people calling for McDaniels' head will say if the Broncos do fire Mcdaniels and go the way of the Raiders and Chiefs and become mired in decades of losing football by failing to commit to a rebuild.

We've seen what that yields on one side of the ball, I guess whiners want to see that across the whole franchise.

If you're coach sucks, then it's best to cut your losses and move on. Even with the injuries and rookies, the Broncos are under-performing and that points to the coaching staff. How much of it is McD's fault or his assistant coaches is anyone's guess... but these sloppy penalties, soft mentality is what has a lot of us fans pissed off.

Just like players... a young coach can give you a glimmer of brilliance or promise. McD's coaching performance is on par with Nash, Middlebrooks, or Moss.

2KBack
12-02-2010, 04:19 PM
If you're coach sucks, then it's best to cut your losses and move on. Even with the injuries and rookies, the Broncos are under-performing and that points to the coaching staff. How much of it is McD's fault or his assistant coaches is anyone's guess... but these sloppy penalties, soft mentality is what has a lot of us fans pissed off.

Just like players... a young coach can give you a glimmer of brilliance or promise. McD's coaching performance is on par with Nash, Middlebrooks, or Moss.

you have to be patient enough to even figure out if your coach is the one sucking. I know a lot of people here had their mind made up before he even coached a single game, but I'm pretty sure a season and 3/4 isn't enough time to make such decisions.

the drama is one thing, and may be the end to McD in Denver, but I certainly do not feel judgment can be accurately made on him as a football coach yet.

WolfpackGuy
12-02-2010, 05:13 PM
It took the Bungles a few years to finally realize Dave Shula sucked, so there's hope if you like the current state of the team.