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View Full Version : Gruden? Kubiak? Really?


Kaylore
11-29-2010, 06:16 AM
How about we get out of the past for a change. Bronco fans have a bad habit of reaching for the familiar, safe choice even if it's not the best. Gruden? No coach has ever won a SB with another team. That means the statistical likelihood of Gruden winning one here is next to nil.

And Kubiak? What has he done in Houston, with some of the best football players at their positions literally, that warrants him being there? You want to know who we should have had? Rick Smith. There is a guy who knows talent and how to draft.

The good Coaches, Harbaugh, Mike Smith, came from outside their respective organizations.

I realize people are sad and want "to just go back to the way things were" but the past is the past and can't be re-created. You see teams do this all the time and it never works - weather it's Bart Starr coaching the Pack, or the long list of unqualified position coaches the Raiders keep around because they used to play.

The bottom line is we can move forward and there is a man out there who can lead us back. However McDaniels isn't failing because he was "new" and not a "true Bronco." He's failing because isn't a very good head coach.

Dr. Broncenstein
11-29-2010, 06:24 AM
Time and time again it has been proven that first time head coaches don't fare well. They tend to be most successful on the second attempt. I want a 3-4 defensively minded guy. Adds up to Mike Nolan for me. But I'd be happy with either of the above over the Manchurian Manchild.

Jay3
11-29-2010, 06:26 AM
It's not just a "familiar, safe choice." The Broncos are in turmoil right now -- they need a steady, veteran hand, preferably one that has won a Super Bowl. This is not the time to bring the next "hot" coordinator. They did that last time.

You have to alternate -- hot young coordinator who's not ready, and then washed up veteran who's lost his spark.

baja
11-29-2010, 06:27 AM
I hope Josh McDaniels gets another year - That is all I want to say.

Dr. Broncenstein
11-29-2010, 06:29 AM
I hope Josh McDaniels gets another year - That is all I want to say.

Honest question: why?

Haroldthebarrel
11-29-2010, 06:30 AM
Are you certain that McDaniels isnt cut to be a good HC?

The way I see it is that he can scheme better than most. And he can develop qbs.
However he is a poor GM as far as personell and draft picks is concerned.
The defense is also extremely poor. Which is his fault for hiring Wink.

I dont know, but I think going after new coaches and new systems statistically usually make for more mediocrity until the roster and talent is set.
Secondly, most great coaches has had a loosing season early. Then they got their high draft picks to build the roster.
I will go on record and give him at least another season to build upon.
I kinda think our SB hopes hinges on Tebows development, but maybe I am a bit optimistic.

fontaine
11-29-2010, 06:37 AM
Honest question: why?

Well at this point I don't care whether McDaniels stays another year or not.

Any head coach, be it McDaniels or otherwise is going to HAVE to address the DL, inconsistent run game and hire a better DC.

If McDaniels can do that in the offseason: Fine, just get it done. After the huge losses this season I can't see how Martindale retains his job anyway.

Dr. Broncenstein
11-29-2010, 06:43 AM
A head coach that can't get along with Mike Nolan, or find a way to use a guy like Hillis. These were "problems" for Mcdaniels. I really don't think the guy is stupid... just fatally egotistical.

loborugger
11-29-2010, 06:43 AM
It is clear from this post that Kaylore is a nuthugger.

Smart ass remarks asides, I agree. Same thing goes for "Cowher Power".

Sir_Robin
11-29-2010, 06:45 AM
Honest question: why?

That''s easy. How often have the Broncos had back-to-back top five picks? Cha-ching!

baja
11-29-2010, 06:53 AM
Honest question: why?

I don't think he's had enough time create the team he needs to play his system. The O is close the D is a good draft away from respectability. This level of rebuild takes time. Sure he's made some mistakes but he also learns from them. In my opinion he's worth another year. I don't think he is the root problem with the Broncos.

Unfortunately I am beginning to believe Pat Bowlen is not thinking clearly. He has no clear chain of command. You're in trouble when your leader becomes weak. Puts us in Oakland Raider fans world.

Bottom line (like Alfonso Smith & Payton Hillis) I think firing Josh now would be giving up on a talent too early, a coach that is going to be a great coach in the NFL. IMO.

Remember Al Davis gave up on Mike Shanahan, how does that look in hindsight?

BTW I am not interested in getting into any "Your stupid for what you think - no your stupid for what you think" exchanges so I won't be posting much until that goes away. ;D

Dr. Broncenstein
11-29-2010, 07:02 AM
Baja-- I get where you are coming from. Completely agree with the ownership aspect. I just think McD's flaw is a self destructive need to be right. I don't see that changing.

fontaine
11-29-2010, 07:08 AM
Baja-- I get where you are coming from. Completely agree with the ownership aspect. I just think McD's flaw is a self destructive need to be right. I don't see that changing.

Well, we're going to find out in the offseason.

McDaniels picked Martindale to run this defense. Given our league worst defense I can't see any justification for this guy staying on as DC. IF McDaniels can put him back in charge of the LBers and hire an established guy like Wade Phillips as DC and not feel threatened by him and trust him then it would be a big step in the right direction.

If McDaniels stubbornly sticks with him, then I don't see how we can afford another year of a mangled defense.

Broncoman13
11-29-2010, 07:10 AM
I don't think he's had enough time create the team he needs to play his system. The O is close the D is a good draft away from respectability. This level of rebuild takes time. Sure he's made some mistakes but he also learns from them. In my opinion he's worth another year. I don't think he is the root problem with the Broncos.

Unfortunately I am beginning to believe Pat Bowlen is not thinking clearly. He has no clear chain of command. You're in trouble when your leader becomes weak. Puts us in Oakland Raider fans world.

Bottom line (like Alfonso Smith & Payton Hillis) I think firing Josh now would be giving up on a talent too early, a coach that is going to be a great coach in the NFL. IMO.

Remember Al Davis gave up on Mike Shanahan, how does that look in hindsight?

BTW I am not interested in getting into any "Your stupid for what you think - no your stupid for what you think" exchanges so I won't be posting much until that goes away. ;D

The issue is McD is paying for all moves b/c he is the one that has been made responsible for all personnel decisions. The trading of Cutler was ultimately Pat Bowlen's decision. But that decision will forever hinge on the fact that McD was the new coach, tried to trade for Cassel, and then couldn't get Cutler to buy into the new idealogy of team first. Again, it was Pat's decision ultimately, but the fans still see it as a McD problem. Same goes for the decision to trade Hillis, Smith, Marshall, Scheffler. The draft trades. The needing defense and hardly addressing the front 7. There are several issues that McD is being held accountable for by the fans. All of those issues are real, but the fact that Pat Bowlen put McD in that situation is more of a concern to me.

The OM is full of smart and engaged fans. They understand, for the most part, that McD is struggling b/c he has too many hats. But the general fan base doesn't have the same level of separation. They see the issues and it's all attributed to McD. They also believe that you can cut your losses with McD, hire a Bill Cowher or Jon Gruden and get instant results...THIS YEAR and Next. It's like, you bring in Bill Cowher or Jon Gruden and the players will all of the sudden grasp a new system, implement it, produce with it, and be immediately more successful. Some on the Mane realize that it doesn't work that way.

The Broncos will make a move and it will happen sooner rather than later as a result of the reduced numbers in Invesco. The fact that they wouldn't even announce the attendance is damning enough. I've never heard of that happening in Denver...never. But when that move does happen, you better be prepared for more of the same. Pat Bowlen prefers to let the coach have all of the decision making authority. For Pat Bowlen, everything runs through the coach. He'll continue to have a "money man" like Xanders is now. But that "GM" will not have a say in day to day football operations or personnel other than yeah it can fit within our cap or no we can't fit that salary in. I've heard a few names brought up in passing and we will not be getting a Jon Gruden or Bill Cowher if we do in fact dump McD. We won't be going to the college ranks and offering Harbaugh $5m per year. I think the only real hope at a GM/Consultant type is John Elway... and that brings question marks of it's own.

IMO, what we really need is a change in the Owner's philosophy of how a team should be and will be run. We all expected and hoped this would come, even with Shanny still here. Most would have told you that Shanny's biggest failures were in personnel. No way was he going to take that hat off and eventually Ellis was able to talk Bowlen into making the move. We all hoped that with that move would come separation between team and front office with the HC being the buffer. The more things change though, the more they've stayed the same... and now McD is making personnel decisions that are at best, not much better than Shanny's.

TonyR
11-29-2010, 07:10 AM
People get a little to caught up in the coach and don't think enough about talent acquisition and team management. No coach is going to win without players. Shanahan did nothing without Elway and the talent around him. Walsh did nothing without Montana and the talent around him. Dungy with Manning. Belichick with Brady. Etc. You have to have talent first and foremost. Bowlen and Ellis brought in two inexeperienced 30-somethings and gave them the responsibility to build a football team. Ridiculous, particularly in hindsight. We need to get a GM in here first and foremost well before we start talking about a coach. No coach is going to fix this mess.

TonyR
11-29-2010, 07:13 AM
They also believe that you can cut your losses with McD, hire a Bill Cowher or Jon Gruden and get instant results...THIS YEAR and Next. It's like, you bring in Bill Cowher or Jon Gruden and the players will all of the sudden grasp a new system, implement it, produce with it, and be immediately more successful. Some on the Mane realize that it doesn't work that way.

Good post, you beat me to it. Pretty much my thinking. We need a lot more than a coach. People like to blame the coach and the QB. It's easier that way. But it's flawed thinking and not reality.

TonyR
11-29-2010, 07:16 AM
IMO, what we really need is a change in the Owner's philosophy of how a team should be and will be run. We all expected and hoped this would come, even with Shanny still here. Most would have told you that Shanny's biggest failures were in personnel. No way was he going to take that hat off and eventually Ellis was able to talk Bowlen into making the move. We all hoped that with that move would come separation between team and front office with the HC being the buffer. The more things change though, the more they've stayed the same... and now McD is making personnel decisions that are at best, not much better than Shanny's.

Bears repeating. This problem starts with Bowlen and Ellis, not McDaniels. McDaniels is a merely a symptom of the larger problem.

fontaine
11-29-2010, 07:17 AM
I don't think he's had enough time create the team he needs to play his system. The O is close the D is a good draft away from respectability. This level of rebuild takes time. Sure he's made some mistakes but he also learns from them. In my opinion he's worth another year. I don't think he is the root problem with the Broncos.

Unfortunately I am beginning to believe Pat Bowlen is not thinking clearly. He has no clear chain of command. You're in trouble when your leader becomes weak. Puts us in Oakland Raider fans world.

Bottom line (like Alfonso Smith & Payton Hillis) I think firing Josh now would be giving up on a talent too early, a coach that is going to be a great coach in the NFL. IMO.

Remember Al Davis gave up on Mike Shanahan, how does that look in hindsight?

BTW I am not interested in getting into any "Your stupid for what you think - no your stupid for what you think" exchanges so I won't be posting much until that goes away. ;D

I simply don't agree with that Baja.

On offense we're three deep at QB, four deep at WR, three deep at TEs all with guys McDaniels wanted.

In two offseasons and 10 picks in the first three rounds the best McDaniels could come up with was Robert Ayers and a bunch of castoffs like Jarvis Green, Vickerson, Williams, LeKevin Smith?

McDaniels actively targetted guys like A Smith, Quinn, Tebow etc. He either didn't want to do that for the weakest unit in the team in the DL or grossly exaggerated players he brought in for the DL.

No, Josh has had more high picks in the last two years than some franchises get in 3/4 years and we've got absolutely nothing to show for it when it comes to the DL.

That doesn't just happen accidently. It was a systematic failure from the FO/Josh and now they're paying for it with their jobs on the line.

It was no different for Shanahan.

zdoor
11-29-2010, 07:22 AM
Baja-- I get where you are coming from. Completely agree with the ownership aspect. I just think McD's flaw is a self destructive need to be right. I don't see that changing.

I think his inexperience has been his undoing. When you are in charge and you tear a team down to rebuild it, trade away talent (regardless of whether anyone thinks we are better off without it) and then look to be going in the wrong direction (W/L), you are going to take the blame... He should have had a strong GM put in place above him and I think much of this debacle could have been avoided. If it was McDaniels arrogance that created the structure, then he is culpable, but I doubt that is solely on him. I think Bowlen went to what he knew and didn't put enough consideration into the fact that McDaniels is 33 and inexperienced in many facets... Don't know it can be salvaged now...

Br0nc0Buster
11-29-2010, 07:43 AM
Time and time again it has been proven that first time head coaches don't fare well. They tend to be most successful on the second attempt. I want a 3-4 defensively minded guy. Adds up to Mike Nolan for me. But I'd be happy with either of the above over the Manchurian Manchild.

no it hasnt
some of the best teams in the league are run by first time head coaches:
Greenbay, Atlanta, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, NYJ just to name a few

in fact the opposite is true
it is becoming more popular to hire new up and comers than retreads

TonyR
11-29-2010, 07:59 AM
no it hasnt
some of the best teams in the league are run by first time head coaches:
Greenbay, Atlanta, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, NYJ just to name a few

in fact the opposite is true
it is becoming more popular to hire new up and comers than retreads

Yup, with the big difference being that every one of those organizations you listed has experienced people running the football organization.
Green Bay - Ted Thompson
Atlana - Thomas Dimitroff
Pittsburgh - Kevin Colbert and the Rooneys
Baltimore - Ozzie Newsome
NY Jets - Mike Tannebaum

Smiling Assassin27
11-29-2010, 08:04 AM
The problem is that we can't afford to have another guy learn how to coach on our dime. Smith and Harbaugh are not difference makers, IMO. The talent that those teams have compiled is first rate and coaching those guys is a hell of a lot easier than coaching the marginal talent in Denver. The NFL is a talent driven league, not a coach-driven league. The one caveat is when a coach utterly loses his team, which seems to be the position Denver finds itself in.

There are guys out there who are proven. Get one. The key now is to trend upward and there are certain guys who will take us in that direction, even if they won't get us a ring. Getting a ring may require a different guy altogether, but getting to a point where we are a playoff team has to come first.

strafen
11-29-2010, 08:08 AM
I hope Josh McDaniels gets another year - That is all I want to say.This!!!!!!!!
He deserves it. He earned the right to coach the Denver Broncos next year.
I think a 1 and 15 record will get him another year as well...

strafen
11-29-2010, 08:09 AM
Bears repeating. This problem starts with Bowlen and Ellis, not McDaniels. McDaniels is a merely a symptom of the larger problem.That utterly BS!!!!!

Bowlen, sell the team, and fire Ellis. Make sure Mcdaniels stays put!

Kaylore
11-29-2010, 08:12 AM
no it hasnt
some of the best teams in the league are run by first time head coaches:
Greenbay, Atlanta, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, NYJ just to name a few

in fact the opposite is true
it is becoming more popular to hire new up and comers than retreads
Exactly. We need new, fresh ideas. I think we can put a nail in the Belichick coaching tree too. He's very good at making sure no one knows everything so that at the end of the day his coaches can't do what he does.

TonyR
11-29-2010, 08:12 AM
The NFL is a talent driven league, not a coach-driven league.

Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding!!!

We can only hope Bowlen wakes up and brings somebody in to run the football organization. Until then we can talk about coaches all we want but a new coach is of secondary importance to a competent, experienced, professional front office that can evaluation and acquire talent. And by "talent" I mean both players and coaches.

TonyR
11-29-2010, 08:14 AM
That utterly BS!!!!!

Bowlen, sell the team, and fire Ellis. Make sure Mcdaniels stays put!

Not at all what I'm saying. Clearly you don't understand. Until you do feel free to not bother reading, or responding to, my posts.

gyldenlove
11-29-2010, 08:16 AM
Time and time again it has been proven that first time head coaches don't fare well. They tend to be most successful on the second attempt. I want a 3-4 defensively minded guy. Adds up to Mike Nolan for me. But I'd be happy with either of the above over the Manchurian Manchild.

I am not sure that is the case anymore, if you look around the league right now, the majority of teams have a HC who has not been a head coach at the pro level with any other team. Over the last 10 super bowls, 8 of the head coaches (4x Bellichick, Dungy, Gruden and Coughlin) were on their 2nd NFL head coaching job, the remaining 12 were on the their first.
Over the last 2 super bowls, Tomlin and Whisenhunt were both 2nd year head coaches in their first job when they went to the super bowl, Payton was a 1st time in his 4th year and Caldwell was a rookie.

It may have been true once that you had the most success on your second stop, but these days I don't think that is true anymore. A lot of 1st time coaches do well for themselves, I think the issue is how the organization handles a 1st time coach, if you put someone experienced in place to work with the coach, I think you are going to have more success than if you hand over the keys to a 30-something year old with no head coaching experience and ask him to do everything.

jhat01
11-29-2010, 08:18 AM
That utterly BS!!!!!

Bowlen, sell the team, and fire Ellis. Make sure Mcdaniels stays put!

Strange how this thread was moving right along....Civil, polite, and then you show up and take a big smelly **** on it. Can't you act like an adult for a change?

TheProfessor
11-29-2010, 08:18 AM
This is going to be a very interesting topic going forward.

IMO the most important thing is to find a coach that meshes with the talent we already have.

I thnk our offensive talent could work just as well in a west coast as this spread/gimmick crap we are running. Though, I wonder if tebow could work in a west coast system? regardless, I'd like to see the defense stay as a 3-4... not like we have a bunch of irreplaceable talent on D,



It's going to be another interesting off season.

jhat01
11-29-2010, 08:20 AM
We've got to get a GM with the hammer in here....Let him make the call on the HC ala Holmgren in CLE. A GM with a pedigree would go a long way towards righting this ship.

Br0nc0Buster
11-29-2010, 08:21 AM
I wouldnt mind getting Marty in a position like that

although "Martyball" was not a fan favorite, he did seem to accumulate a lot of talent for SD
I wonder what he is up to these days

Taco John
11-29-2010, 08:22 AM
There is nothing that McDaniels is doing that is irreplaceable. This isn't about him not installing his system. He's two years fully into his program and things are getting worse, not better. It's not about the talent either. You can get .500 with bad talent and good coaching in the parity driven NFL.

Josh is simply a poor coach who is not ready for Prime Time. He needs another 5 or 8 years to gain experience and meet as many people as he possibly can. Keeping him around in the hopes that he's going to magically improve overnight is insanity.

As far as hiring a retread goes, I'm all for it. We need someone who has experience and can come in and stabilize a franchise that is falling off a cliff. We need a strong personality to come in here and install the backbone that has been ripped out of this franchise. The last thing we need right now is another experimental coach who wants to install his mad genius ideas that require us to ship off every shred of talent so he can get just the perfect guys for his mad genius system.

Caveat: I'd jump at Urban Meyers with both feet. His philosophy is win with who you've got.

~Crash~
11-29-2010, 08:29 AM
Yup, with the big difference being that every one of those organizations you listed has experienced people running the football organization.
Green Bay - Ted Thompson
Atlana - Thomas Dimitroff
Pittsburgh - Kevin Colbert and the Rooneys
Baltimore - Ozzie Newsome
NY Jets - Mike Tannebaum



that is why I wish the Broncos would give Elway the GM job he is IMO one of the smartest football minds out there.

~Crash~
11-29-2010, 08:32 AM
There is nothing that McDaniels is doing that is irreplaceable. This isn't about him not installing his system. He's two years fully into his program and things are getting worse, not better. It's not about the talent either. You can get .500 with bad talent and good coaching in the parity driven NFL.

Josh is simply a poor coach who is not ready for Prime Time. He needs another 5 or 8 years to gain experience and meet as many people as he possibly can. Keeping him around in the hopes that he's going to magically improve overnight is insanity.

As far as hiring a retread goes, I'm all for it. We need someone who has experience and can come in and stabilize a franchise that is falling off a cliff. We need a strong personality to come in here and install the backbone that has been ripped out of this franchise. The last thing we need right now is another experimental coach who wants to install his mad genius ideas that require us to ship off every shred of talent so he can get just the perfect guys for his mad genius system.

Caveat: I'd jump at Urban Meyers with both feet. His philosophy is win with who you've got.

and IMO if McD get's canned is why he did.

Rohirrim
11-29-2010, 08:34 AM
There is nothing that McDaniels is doing that is irreplaceable. This isn't about him not installing his system. He's two years fully into his program and things are getting worse, not better. It's not about the talent either. You can get .500 with bad talent and good coaching in the parity driven NFL.

Josh is simply a poor coach who is not ready for Prime Time. He needs another 5 or 8 years to gain experience and meet as many people as he possibly can. Keeping him around in the hopes that he's going to magically improve overnight is insanity.

As far as hiring a retread goes, I'm all for it. We need someone who has experience and can come in and stabilize a franchise that is falling off a cliff. We need a strong personality to come in here and install the backbone that has been ripped out of this franchise. The last thing we need right now is another experimental coach who wants to install his mad genius ideas that require us to ship off every shred of talent so he can get just the perfect guys for his mad genius system.

Caveat: I'd jump at Urban Meyers with both feet. His philosophy is win with who you've got.

I really like Jim Harbaugh's coaching philosophy: A smashmouth run game is the basis for everything else.

mnfan
11-29-2010, 08:36 AM
I don't think he's had enough time create the team he needs to play his system. The O is close the D is a good draft away from respectability. This level of rebuild takes time. Sure he's made some mistakes but he also learns from them. In my opinion he's worth another year. I don't think he is the root problem with the Broncos.

Unfortunately I am beginning to believe Pat Bowlen is not thinking clearly. He has no clear chain of command. You're in trouble when your leader becomes weak. Puts us in Oakland Raider fans world.

Bottom line (like Alfonso Smith & Payton Hillis) I think firing Josh now would be giving up on a talent too early, a coach that is going to be a great coach in the NFL. IMO.

Remember Al Davis gave up on Mike Shanahan, how does that look in hindsight?

BTW I am not interested in getting into any "Your stupid for what you think - no your stupid for what you think" exchanges so I won't be posting much until that goes away. ;D

I agree, if we quit on McD we go into rebuilding and have the same issues as we have now. Will he like Tebow, half will be pissed if we let him go, half will be pissed if he stays and will be calling for his head. He has two years left on his contract, give him another year. If he's smart, he'll surround himself with more good, quality coaches. Look at Haley in KC, he's got two former HC's in his coordinators and they are playing better.

TonyR
11-29-2010, 08:55 AM
I am not sure that is the case anymore...

I'm not sure it was ever the case. I think it's more about landing in a "good situation" than it is about being in your second job. Take Belichick for example. Sure his experience in Cleveland helped but I think landing in a good organization that got lucky and drafted Tom Brady helped even more. I think Belichick is a very good coach but I'm not sure he's as relevant as he is today if you take Tom Brady out of the equation. Same goes for Tony Dungy with Manning in Indy.

Smiling Assassin27
11-29-2010, 08:58 AM
I really like Jim Harbaugh's coaching philosophy: A smashmouth run game is the basis for everything else.

That's not a strategy specific to Harbaugh. Many coaches have that philosophy and, depending on their talent, have varying amounts of success. It's always gonna be about the talent, regardless of the philosophy. For every Harbaugh, there's an Andy Reid who does it differently.

Popps
11-29-2010, 09:03 AM
Baja-- I get where you are coming from. Completely agree with the ownership aspect. I just think McD's flaw is a self destructive need to be right. I don't see that changing.

This could be.... or not. Outside appearances don't always tell us the complete story.

I'll say this, though... that trait is probably going to be one shared by most winning coaches. Not so much a "need to be" right, but a self-confidence that they know what it is that needs to be done.

These guys all have big egos or they wouldn't be doing what they're doing.

That said, I'm not ruling out that McDaniels could be on the controlling end of things. I just haven't heard any players to date complain about his coaching style.

I'm in the camp that figures one more season with a good offseason is probably better than starting from scratch. We've just put too many resources into these systems not to give them a full and fair shot.

But, whatever happens... happens. I'll be rooting my ass off for whoever is on the sidelines for us.

DarkHorse30
11-29-2010, 09:09 AM
There is nothing that McDaniels is doing that is irreplaceable. This isn't about him not installing his system. He's two years fully into his program and things are getting worse, not better. It's not about the talent either. You can get .500 with bad talent and good coaching in the parity driven NFL.

Josh is simply a poor coach who is not ready for Prime Time. He needs another 5 or 8 years to gain experience and meet as many people as he possibly can. Keeping him around in the hopes that he's going to magically improve overnight is insanity.

As far as hiring a retread goes, I'm all for it. We need someone who has experience and can come in and stabilize a franchise that is falling off a cliff. We need a strong personality to come in here and install the backbone that has been ripped out of this franchise. The last thing we need right now is another experimental coach who wants to install his mad genius ideas that require us to ship off every shred of talent so he can get just the perfect guys for his mad genius system.

Caveat: I'd jump at Urban Meyers with both feet. His philosophy is win with who you've got.

I agree. McDaniels has shown me nothing.....and I've defended him from the start.

This taping incident is a perfect excuse to fire him or give him the option of the OC only. Bring in Shottenheimer and maybe a new OL coach. Leave Martindale in for this year. Bring in a new GM....I have no idea who, but somebody has to take the hit @ the GM level....and cut loose of Lewis. Have Bowlen sell half of the team to Elway. There....that should shake the tree.

TheProfessor
11-29-2010, 09:09 AM
I'm in the camp that figures one more season with a good offseason is probably better than starting from scratch. We've just put too many resources into these systems not to give them a full and fair shot.



I'm not picking on you here, but i really hope PB doesn't see things this way.

Rohirrim
11-29-2010, 09:13 AM
That's not a strategy specific to Harbaugh. Many coaches have that philosophy and, depending on their talent, have varying amounts of success. It's always gonna be about the talent, regardless of the philosophy. For every Harbaugh, there's an Andy Reid who does it differently.

That wasn't my point. My point was that I enjoy watching that kind of football the most that Harbaugh puts on the field, especially last year when he had Gerhart. Reminds me of when the Broncos had that Oline with TD and Griffith behind them and could dominate on the ground. When they got the early lead on you, you were in deep ****. It's like the difference between the American and National leagues in baseball. In the American league it's all swinging for the fences. In the National, it's stealing bases and squeeze plays and scoring off singles. Fundamental baseball. Frankly, I'm getting tired of Josh-ball, the dink and dunk, the spread, and the wildcat. I much prefer watching a dominating Oline and a punishing RB march down the field kicking asses and throwing the ball just enough to keep the safeties off the line. Personal preference.

gyldenlove
11-29-2010, 09:16 AM
I'm not sure it was ever the case. I think it's more about landing in a "good situation" than it is about being in your second job. Take Belichick for example. Sure his experience in Cleveland helped but I think landing in a good organization that got lucky and drafted Tom Brady helped even more. I think Belichick is a very good coach but I'm not sure he's as relevant as he is today if you take Tom Brady out of the equation. Same goes for Tony Dungy with Manning in Indy.

It is a chicken and egg type of scenario, I think there was a time when you had to have experience to land in a "good situation". As we have seen with Colts, Jets, Ravens, Steelers etc, today even teams with established success and a strong talent base will hire a first time coach.

TonyR
11-29-2010, 09:21 AM
It is a chicken and egg type of scenario...

Yes, certainly. I just think people need to drop the idea that if we bring in a coach getting his second chance he's going to succeed. Put Mike Nolan, for example, in a bad situation and he's going to fail just as miserably as he did in San Fran. This organization needs to start it's rebuild from the top. We need a football guy to run the organization first and foremost.

HooptyHoops
11-29-2010, 09:30 AM
I think the best way to build a team is with a GM and a coach, as they both will be looking at different things...coach wants to win now, while the GM is building for the future....this one man runs the who thing is just stupid to me....

Mile High Shack
11-29-2010, 09:31 AM
we need a real GM and someone who just coaches....this whole BS of the coach being involved in personnel decision has got to stop, just too many freakin' hats.

I don't know who the next coach will be, but I hope Bowlen learns and realizes you have to a qualified GM and not just someone who is good at numbers. We have to have a serious talent evaluator running the ship and a coach taking care of the x's and o's.

This is the lowest point the Broncos have been in since I have been watching football. I just never expected us to ever be this bad off.

Rascal
11-29-2010, 11:01 AM
I don't think he's had enough time create the team he needs to play his system.

What a crock of ****. He brought in almost every starter on this team. If the players can't play the system then you change the system...that is what a good HC does. He utilizes his players to get the best out of them instead of trying to hammer them into role that he needs to have his system work.

His in game management is horrible. The last three weeks have painfully illustrated that.

~Crash~
11-29-2010, 11:13 AM
I agree. McDaniels has shown me nothing.....and I've defended him from the start.

This taping incident is a perfect excuse to fire him or give him the option of the OC only. Bring in Shottenheimer and maybe a new OL coach. Leave Martindale in for this year. Bring in a new GM....I have no idea who, but somebody has to take the hit @ the GM level....and cut loose of Lewis. Have Bowlen sell half of the team to Elway. There....that should shake the tree.

not to bad of a post but I would make Elway GM . and Wade the DC

oubronco
11-29-2010, 11:14 AM
Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding!!!

We can only hope Bowlen wakes up and brings somebody in to run the football organization. Until then we can talk about coaches all we want but a new coach is of secondary importance to a competent, experienced, professional front office that can evaluation and acquire talent. And by "talent" I mean both players and coaches.

Best post in the last 2 yrs

~Crash~
11-29-2010, 11:16 AM
What a crock of ****. He brought in almost every starter on this team. If the players can't play the system then you change the system...that is what a good HC does. He utilizes his players to get the best out of them instead of trying to hammer them into role that he needs to have his system work.

His in game management is horrible. The last three weeks have painfully illustrated that.

this coach did not get the idea . win now ! square peg round hole

Mr.Meanie
11-29-2010, 11:22 AM
I am curious, what happens if we fire McD and the next coach has 2 consecutive 5-11 or 4-12 seasons? Fire him and try another one?

bendog
11-29-2010, 11:48 AM
It would depend. IF the ownership could honestly say to fans "we've had bad injury luck and our team wasn't very deep, but we have young guys from the draft who are improving, and the coaching staff has a plan that we think will work ....." They try to sell that.

Unfortunately with McD, he alienated some fans with the Lambchop trade. Personally, I'm ok with it. But there's no way to defend his 2009 draft, and then there's Hillis compared to Moreno and trading A Smith after just one year, and now the Spygate debacle .... There is no way any to logically say this team is on a course that will produce a winner. Popps can say, McDaniels knows how to build a team, but the fact is that the team is worse than in 08 and the injuries were just as bad that year. And now, at least one asst has turned on McDaniels, his loss of Nolan and subsequent search for a DC were curious to say the least, and when Healy says "people are talking about you around the league," I wonder what that means. So, ownership is left with having to say " we think McDaniels will improve, and we're asking you to have faith in our judgment."

I don't know that people are going to buy that. I know what you're saying is that changing coaches now will not really improve things for the near term. But the question is whether the situation is so dire that changing coaches is the least bad option left.

Mr.Meanie
11-29-2010, 12:05 PM
It would depend. IF the ownership could honestly say to fans "we've had bad injury luck and our team wasn't very deep, but we have young guys from the draft who are improving, and the coaching staff has a plan that we think will work ....." They try to sell that.

Unfortunately with McD, he alienated some fans with the Lambchop trade. Personally, I'm ok with it. But there's no way to defend his 2009 draft, and then there's Hillis compared to Moreno and trading A Smith after just one year, and now the Spygate debacle .... There is no way any to logically say this team is on a course that will produce a winner. Popps can say, McDaniels knows how to build a team, but the fact is that the team is worse than in 08 and the injuries were just as bad that year. And now, at least one asst has turned on McDaniels, his loss of Nolan and subsequent search for a DC were curious to say the least, and when Healy says "people are talking about you around the league," I wonder what that means. So, ownership is left with having to say " we think McDaniels will improve, and we're asking you to have faith in our judgment."

I don't know that people are going to buy that. I know what you're saying is that changing coaches now will not really improve things for the near term. But the question is whether the situation is so dire that changing coaches is the least bad option left.

I understand that there are a lot of negatives to point to. But there are with every single franchise that has gone through down times. There is always drama surrounding every losing team, the difference is we think it's huge news around the league because we are invested in every single morsel of information available, being fans and all.

I have a buddy who is a hardcore Rams fan, and when the Rams went 1-15 last year with Spagnolo, he was always telling me about some sort of drama with the team. The thing is, they stuck with the coaching staff to give continuity, and one draft full of #1 picks in every round later they are about a .500 team again.

Like the announcer said during the game, this team has had 5 DC's in 5 seasons. Every one of them comes in and has guys that don't fit his scheme, and they have to scrap it and start over. If (when?) we fire McD, there's a good chance all of the young players we have now may not fit the new scheme, which will require a rebuilding process.

I am asking, if fans are not accepting of the rebuilding process that we are going through right now, how will they react when we go through another couple of years at the bottom of the league? Fire the new guy with his questionable draft picks and trades (which happens with every single team), and get a new coach, scheme and start over again?

Pick Six
11-29-2010, 12:07 PM
I hope Josh McDaniels gets another year - That is all I want to say.

The playcalling has been suspect, from time to time. However, injuries at key defensive positions (Dumervil, Ayers, Dawkins, etc.) has really hurt us. It's not all McDaniels' fault...

epicSocialism4tw
11-29-2010, 12:19 PM
It would be great if we could get Parcells in here as a GM.

Mile High Shack
11-29-2010, 12:26 PM
I understand that there are a lot of negatives to point to. But there are with every single franchise that has gone through down times. There is always drama surrounding every losing team, the difference is we think it's huge news around the league because we are invested in every single morsel of information available, being fans and all.

I have a buddy who is a hardcore Rams fan, and when the Rams went 1-15 last year with Spagnolo, he was always telling me about some sort of drama with the team. The thing is, they stuck with the coaching staff to give continuity, and one draft full of #1 picks in every round later they are about a .500 team again.

Like the announcer said during the game, this team has had 5 DC's in 5 seasons. Every one of them comes in and has guys that don't fit his scheme, and they have to scrap it and start over. If (when?) we fire McD, there's a good chance all of the young players we have now may not fit the new scheme, which will require a rebuilding process.

I am asking, if fans are not accepting of the rebuilding process that we are going through right now, how will they react when we go through another couple of years at the bottom of the league? Fire the new guy with his questionable draft picks and trades (which happens with every single team), and get a new coach, scheme and start over again?

so you see glimmers of hope in the last year and 1/2? I'm sorry man, but I just don't see any hope of getting better at all. When we are worse and are becoming a joke in the league, it's time to move on

TheReverend
11-29-2010, 12:37 PM
He's failing because isn't a very good head coach.

Or good at just about anything other than a passing attack against prevent defenses...

"A 10 in every category" - Pat Bowlen

Mr.Meanie
11-29-2010, 12:43 PM
so you see glimmers of hope in the last year and 1/2? I'm sorry man, but I just don't see any hope of getting better at all. When we are worse and are becoming a joke in the league, it's time to move on

Sure I do. We laid an epic beatdown on our leading division rival 2 weeks ago. We almost scrapped back a win last week down 20 points in 4th quarter. I see a lot of hope at getting better.

Our leading passrusher, who lead the league last year in sacks with 17 freaking sacks, didn't even play one snap this year. Rotten, awful luck. You can't tell me our defense wouldn't look completely different if we could find even a shadow of a pass-rush this year.

We have a lot of young building blocks from the draft this year, and even a few from last year who are coming on strong. I look at the young players we have, and I see a lot of hope:

RB:Moreno - last 3 games 100+ yards per game averaging 4.6ypc. He is getting much better
Secondary: Cox, Squid, Bruton, McBath - all look like they have a bright future in our secondary
LB: Ayers - anchor against the run, will be an awesome duo with Doom. Mays, Hunter - it looks like found some good depth at LB
WR: D. Thomas, Decker, Llloyd, Royal - some serious talent here
OL: Clady, Beadles, Walton, Kuper, Harris - I think this will be the core of one of the best OL's in the league. We just need continuity, time and experience running the same goddamn offense for once.
QB: Tebow. Nuff said

I look at this team and see a ****load of potential, and I also see a lot of holes. I think that potential will develop with time, and we need to fill in the holes, especially on the Dline.

Obviously this team is flawed, but IMO scrapping the entire coaching staff (again), changing schemes (again) and starting over from scratch is not going to fix these flaws, it will just create new flaws that will need to be fixed. And again, when those flaws are apparent to everyone and the league, and if we have another 2 years under .500, what then? At some point we need to empower a coaching staff to build the team their way, and give them at least 3 years to do it.

Mile High Shack
11-29-2010, 12:46 PM
Sure I do. We laid an epic beatdown on our leading division rival 2 weeks ago. We almost scrapped back a win last week down 20 points in 4th quarter. I see a lot of hope at getting better.

Our leading passrusher, who lead the league last year in sacks with 17 freaking sacks, didn't even play one snap this year. Rotten, awful luck. You can't tell me our defense wouldn't look completely different if we could find even a shadow of a pass-rush this year.

We have a lot of young building blocks from the draft this year, and even a few from last year who are coming on strong. I look at the young players we have, and I see a lot of hope:

RB:Moreno - last 3 games 100+ yards per game averaging 4.6ypc. He is getting much better
Secondary: Cox, Squid, Bruton, McBath - all look like they have a bright future in our secondary
LB: Ayers - anchor against the run, will be an awesome duo with Doom. Mays, Hunter - it looks like found some good depth at LB
WR: D. Thomas, Decker, Llloyd, Royal - some serious talent here
OL: Clady, Beadles, Walton, Kuper, Harris - I think this will be the core of one of the best OL's in the league. We just need continuity, time and experience running the same goddamn offense for once.
QB: Tebow. Nuff said

I look at this team and see a ****load of potential, and I also see a lot of holes. I think that potential will develop with time, and we need to fill in the holes, especially on the Dline.

Obviously this team is flawed, but IMO scrapping the entire coaching staff (again), changing schemes (again) and starting over from scratch is not going to fix these flaws, it will just create new flaws that will need to be fixed. And again, when those flaws are apparent to everyone and the league, and if we have another 2 years under .500, what then? At some point we need to empower a coaching staff to build the team their way, and give them at least 3 years to do it.

a good coach can still work with those positives you see, while I don't see McD having the ability to turn this ship around

Mr.Meanie
11-29-2010, 12:47 PM
a good coach can still work with those positives you see, while I don't see McD having the ability to turn this ship around

Fair enough. To his credit though, a lot of those positives are directly from his role in bringing them in and developing them.

cutthemdown
11-29-2010, 01:43 PM
I hope Josh McDaniels gets another year - That is all I want to say.

I think I tend to want the same thing. If Broncos make a huge move and get an exciting new coach I will be on board but I still think Mcdaniels was handed total crap. Switching to 3-4 and a different style blocking will take 3 yrs to look even decent at it. Not surprised we are losing but am sort of surprised running game is so bad. Defense not surprising at all.

One more year I think unless.........

24champ
11-29-2010, 02:02 PM
I am curious, what happens if we fire McD and the next coach has 2 consecutive 5-11 or 4-12 seasons? Fire him and try another one?

And do we need to find a new QB after Luck bombs out? LOL

bronco militia
11-29-2010, 02:04 PM
I am curious, what happens if we fire McD and the next coach has 2 consecutive 5-11 or 4-12 seasons? Fire him and try another one?

hopefully he hasn't traded away the teams best players and or got caught cheating.

loborugger
11-29-2010, 02:04 PM
It would be great if we could get Parcells in here as a GM.

He isnt interested. He is slowly bowing out of the Miami job.

HAT
11-29-2010, 02:06 PM
And do we need to find a new QB after Luck bombs out? LOL

Aside from the fact that QB is nowhere near a problem....

The people saying to draft Luck were probably saying the same thing about Locker last year.....And probably will be saying the same thing about Barkley next year. LOL

24champ
11-29-2010, 02:09 PM
Aside from the fact that QB is nowhere near a problem....

The people saying to draft Luck were probably saying the same thing about Locker last year.....And probably will be saying the same thing about Barkley next year. LOL

Then the following year Murray from UGA. LOL

It never ends with these retards.

jhns
11-29-2010, 02:12 PM
I am curious, what happens if we fire McD and the next coach has 2 consecutive 5-11 or 4-12 seasons? Fire him and try another one?

That depends. Do we look to be improving in that time? Does that next coach continually have drama follow him? Does that coach make head scratching moves over and over again. Does that coach always cut off his nose in spite of his face? Does that coach repeat every mistake that this organization has made over the last 10 years? Does that coach suck so bad at talent evaluation that half the guys he gives up are starting and doing well in other places?

It isn't so cut and dry.


And why would some of you write of Kubiak just because of his first job? He has done better than most coaches at their first gig. Anyways, how many coaches win SBs at their first head coaching job? How many look like garbage and then win SBs at later jobs? Yeah, we should continue getting the rookies instead...

baja
11-29-2010, 02:20 PM
I simply don't agree with that Baja.

On offense we're three deep at QB, four deep at WR, three deep at TEs all with guys McDaniels wanted.

In two offseasons and 10 picks in the first three rounds the best McDaniels could come up with was Robert Ayers and a bunch of castoffs like Jarvis Green, Vickerson, Williams, LeKevin Smith?

McDaniels actively targetted guys like A Smith, Quinn, Tebow etc. He either didn't want to do that for the weakest unit in the team in the DL or grossly exaggerated players he brought in for the DL.

No, Josh has had more high picks in the last two years than some franchises get in 3/4 years and we've got absolutely nothing to show for it when it comes to the DL.

That doesn't just happen accidently. It was a systematic failure from the FO/Josh and now they're paying for it with their jobs on the line.

It was no different for Shanahan.

I think you are too hasty.


It's like when you go shopping, first you got your budget (remember among other things Bowlen was left with a shiit load of dead money to pay from the previous staff) Next the market does not always have perfect carrots, celery artichokes and cantaloupes you are forced to chose from whats available, sometimes you must wait for the next shipment to find what you want at a price you can afford. And when you limit your choices to all organically grown (Smart tough versatile team players) your choices are even more limited.

Josh needs more time to make his soup. IMO.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-29-2010, 02:26 PM
I simply don't agree with that Baja.

On offense we're three deep at QB, four deep at WR, three deep at TEs all with guys McDaniels wanted.

In two offseasons and 10 picks in the first three rounds the best McDaniels could come up with was Robert Ayers and a bunch of castoffs like Jarvis Green, Vickerson, Williams, LeKevin Smith?

McDaniels actively targetted guys like A Smith, Quinn, Tebow etc. He either didn't want to do that for the weakest unit in the team in the DL or grossly exaggerated players he brought in for the DL.

No, Josh has had more high picks in the last two years than some franchises get in 3/4 years and we've got absolutely nothing to show for it when it comes to the DL.

That doesn't just happen accidently. It was a systematic failure from the FO/Josh and now they're paying for it with their jobs on the line.

It was no different for Shanahan.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion.

I think one thing you should consider in your analysis is that McDaniels spent the first couple drafts of his tenure getting players that he wanted for the side of the ball he's most comfortable working with. His biggest free agent signings of the last two years were both defensive, with Dawkins and Williams. Dawkins had a step last year, and Williams was probably done before putting on a Bronco uniform, but both were stop-gap measures until we could go after the younger guys for that side of the ball in the draft.

This is my opinion, of course, and I don't know any better or worse than you what McDaniels is thinking. But to me, it makes sense to think that the guy wanted to have a full cupboard on offense immediately, and could then build his defense through later drafts.

/shrug

I think the plan was sound. But what's that saying about best-laid plans?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-29-2010, 02:28 PM
That depends. Do we look to be improving in that time? Does that next coach continually have drama follow him? Does that coach make head scratching moves over and over again. Does that coach always cut off his nose in spite of his face? Does that coach repeat every mistake that this organization has made over the last 10 years? Does that coach suck so bad at talent evaluation that half the guys he gives up are starting and doing well in other places?

It isn't so cut and dry.


And why would some of you write of Kubiak just because of his first job? He has done better than most coaches at their first gig. Anyways, how many coaches win SBs at their first head coaching job? How many look like garbage and then win SBs at later jobs? Yeah, we should continue getting the rookies instead...

Weird.

Aren't you the one who is always saying that the only thing that matters is W/L record? Now it depends on whether they're improving, as long as the coach's name isn't Josh McDaniels, and isn't all about the W/L record.

jhns
11-29-2010, 02:40 PM
Weird.

Aren't you the one who is always saying that the only thing that matters is W/L record? Now it depends on whether they're improving, as long as the coach's name isn't Josh McDaniels, and isn't all about the W/L record.

Nope. I have always judged on many factors, like the team improving.

Are you really claiming this team has been improved at any point under McDaniels? That is some funny stuff. Why do you hate the Broncos so much?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-29-2010, 02:42 PM
Nope. I have always judged on many factors, like the team improving.

Are you really claiming this team has been improved at any point under McDaniels? That is some funny stuff. Why do you hate the Broncos so much?

Huh. Must have been someone else constantly repeating "WINS ARE ALL THAT MATTERS." See? Weird.

I'm not claiming anything. Are you really making up arguments nobody made so you can attempt snarky comments like "why do you hate the Broncos so much?"? Sort of childish and pathetic, but considering the source, nobody will be surprised.

Are you really claiming that you've never said "Wins are all that matters"?

jhns
11-29-2010, 02:48 PM
Huh. Must have been someone else constantly repeating "WINS ARE ALL THAT MATTERS." See? Weird.

I'm not claiming anything. Are you really making up arguments nobody made so you can attempt snarky comments like "why do you hate the Broncos so much?"? Sort of childish and pathetic, but considering the source, nobody will be surprised.

Are you really claiming that you've never said "Wins are all that matters"?

Well wins are all that matters. It isn't the only reason I would fire a coach though.

How are you not claiming we have improved? How would you know my criteria is "unless its McDaniels" if we didn't improve? None of your post makes any sense. I can't help that you don't have an education.

Ratboy
11-29-2010, 02:48 PM
I really like Jim Harbaugh's coaching philosophy: A smashmouth run game is the basis for everything else.

Rep for Jim Harbaugh.

If we're bringing in a college guy, I want him.

Bring in Jim Harbaugh and let him get Andrew Luck.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-29-2010, 02:52 PM
Well wins are all that matters. It isn't the only reason I would fire a coach though.

How are you not claiming we have improved? How would you know my criteria is "unless its McDaniels" if we didn't improve? None of your post makes any sense. I can't help that you don't have an education.

For those of you scoring at home, first, wins are all that matters. Then improvement matters too. But then wins are all that matters. Again.

And I can't help that you revel in getting your ass kicked on this forum every single day. I can't help that you don't know your ass from a banjo.

You're beyond help. Too stupid to assist.

jhns
11-29-2010, 03:01 PM
For those of you scoring at home, first, wins are all that matters. Then improvement matters too. But then wins are all that matters. Again.

And I can't help that you revel in getting your ass kicked on this forum every single day. I can't help that you don't know your ass from a banjo.

You're beyond help. Too stupid to assist.

LOL

The simpleton can't even keep up with his own logic and now thinks he is schooling others. It is pretty cute.

Educations are free in this country. Why would you refuse to take advantage of this?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-29-2010, 03:04 PM
LOL

The simpleton can't even keep up with his own logic and now thinks he is schooling others. It is pretty cute.

Educations are free in this country. Why would you refuse to take advantage of this?

Hark! The simpleton speaks! Tell us all once more about how you're awesome and are therefore allowed to be a douchebag.

Certainly sounds like an educated man to me.

LOL at your "educations are free in this country" comment. Seem to remember paying for about half my college education myself, but I bet those night classes at the Free University are really doing wonders for you!

baja
11-29-2010, 03:22 PM
LOL

The simpleton can't even keep up with his own logic and now thinks he is schooling others. It is pretty cute.

Educations are free in this country. Why would you refuse to take advantage of this?

Well this was a good thread for awhile.

It's time for me to put you on ignore. I hate using the ignore feature but it this case it is the lesser of two evils. Hope you will come around to being civil some day soon.

Requiem
11-29-2010, 03:25 PM
JHNS is better than everyone because he is a web monkey and got his degree in Computer Science. Not only that, he has the keys to all the corn(holes) in Nebraska.