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Quoydogs
11-28-2010, 04:44 PM
I can't believe that we are that team. The one even the announcers make fun of. Hell today the even said that Thunder might pull a hammy.

I have been a Broncos fan my whole life but this is lowest I have ever felt.

Say what you will but Josh needs to either go or stripped of every duty he has besides coaching this team.

We had a good offense je pissed that away then took the picks we need to to fix our defense and spent them on an offense that is not as good, while making our poor defense worse.

He traded away a great defensive coach for a average one.

He has a predictable game plan.

It's pretty sad when John Lynch is announcing the game and is a big Denver fan and is having a hard time saying anything good about us.

Sad very very sad.

He has brought spy gate to Denver a one time classy organization. Weather he had anything to do with it or not he hired the guy that did it and he knew he was part of what had happened before.

For the first time I can ever remember there are empty seats everywhere you look in the stands.

He has pissed away numerous picks on worthless players.

Ever week we here the same thing we need to do this or that better. But yet he comes out the same and changes nothing.

I;m sorry but enough is enough.

Bowlen save the Broncos now Get rid of him.

I don't like being THAT TEAM.

Dagmar
11-28-2010, 04:45 PM
http://finickypenguin.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/mr-t1.jpg

zdoor
11-28-2010, 04:46 PM
Yup.. I agree Quoy..

Que
11-28-2010, 04:47 PM
+1

Taco John
11-28-2010, 04:47 PM
I don't understand why people are so interested in keeping Josh around and just hiring a GM. What is it about this offense that is irreplaceable?

scttgrd
11-28-2010, 04:50 PM
Not much else to say, it has all been said. Josh needs to go, it's a low point for this franchise.

snowspot66
11-28-2010, 04:51 PM
You can criticize a lot, hell damn near everything, but lets leave that bull**** about having a good offense in the trash heap. We all know 2008 had a ****ty offense.

frerottenextelway
11-28-2010, 04:51 PM
I don't understand why people are so interested in keeping Josh around and just hiring a GM. What is it about this offense that is irreplaceable?

What he has done with Lloyd is impressive, but it pretty much ends there.

Rock Chalk
11-28-2010, 04:52 PM
I don't understand why people are so interested in keeping Josh around and just hiring a GM. What is it about this offense that is irreplaceable?

Any offense that can make Orton and Lloyd look like superstars has its perks.

That being said, I dont particularly care. A new coach means we are either dumping Teblow or moving him to FB/RB so Im OK with that move (more OK with just dumping his Florida Gator ass).

That being said, I dont want any Shanahan disciples either. I want a ****ing defense I can be proud of. One that plays consistently tough all year long and doesn't fold even when they face elite QBs. I want an offense that pounds the ****ing rock in any weather against any offensive line in any situation so I do NOT want the ZBS back in Denver.

Im OK with Orton staying as a long term QB with whatever coach we have, assuming the aforementioned coach can do what I want because Orton has his merits and can play well.

Kaylore
11-28-2010, 04:53 PM
I don't understand why people are so interested in keeping Josh around and just hiring a GM. What is it about this offense that is irreplaceable?

Well, oddly enough we could recycle the exact arguments you made for keeping Shanahan around. It's pretty much the same thing. Shall I go back?

"We should expect to lose! We're in the middle of a rebuild! You don't stop a rebuild a year and a half in!"

Those arguments sat well with you two years ago, Taco. What changed?

Broncos4tw
11-28-2010, 04:53 PM
I guess most of all, I'd like to know what supporters of Josh are so high on - what has he done or produced that makes you want to keep him so badly?

tsiguy96
11-28-2010, 04:53 PM
we just put up 33, how many times did 07 and 08 broncos do that? mcdaniels has made a ton of mistakes and it may be over for him, but i hate the revisionist history that people have about cutler and those offenses

zdoor
11-28-2010, 04:54 PM
You can criticize a lot, hell damn near everything, but lets leave that bull**** about having a good offense in the trash heap. We all know 2008 had a ****ty offense.

While that is valid it is debatable which is better... This years or 2008... Neither is/was all that but it sure would have been nice to work on what we knew sucked (the D) instead of rebuilding the strongest part of the team first...

WolfpackGuy
11-28-2010, 04:56 PM
Stats = wins.

Can't you people see it?

Killericon
11-28-2010, 04:56 PM
Well, oddly enough we could recycle the exact arguments you made for keeping Shanahan around. It's pretty much the same thing. Shall I go back?

"We should expect to lose! We're in the middle of a rebuild! You don't stop a rebuild a year and a half in!"

Those arguments sat well with you two years ago, Taco. What changed?

Right on the money. It's not pleasant, and I can barely see any light in the tunnel, but we might as well finish seeing if Josh can do the job before we go to someone else we're unsure about.

Broncos4tw
11-28-2010, 04:56 PM
we just put up 33, how many times did 07 and 08 broncos do that? mcdaniels has made a ton of mistakes and it may be over for him, but i hate the revisionist history that people have about cutler and those offenses

That's not the point. A good team is balanced. We have a team that can score a lot? Once in awhile? So what? Orton can set passing records? Who cares? If we ignore the defense to build up an offense that didn't need it, and end up losing this many games as a result, it doesn't matter. It's smoke and mirrors - it's an illusion. Just like huuge passing #'s.. they don't mean jack. Actually, they do.. they usually mean (unless you are a top 5 QB in the league), that you are behind in many games and have to air it out to catch up.

snowspot66
11-28-2010, 04:58 PM
While that is valid it is debatable which is better... This years or 2008... Neither is/was all that but it sure would have been nice to work on what we knew sucked (the D) instead of rebuilding the strongest part of the team first...

We need to accept that we didn't have a strong part of the team. We were running on fumes for years.

Gutless Drunk
11-28-2010, 04:58 PM
Well, oddly enough we could recycle the exact arguments you made for keeping Shanahan around. It's pretty much the same thing. Shall I go back?

"We should expect to lose! We're in the middle of a rebuild! You don't stop a rebuild a year and a half in!"

Those arguments sat well with you two years ago, Taco. What changed?

Probably .273 as opposed to .500

Dr. Broncenstein
11-28-2010, 04:59 PM
I don't understand why people are so interested in keeping Josh around and just hiring a GM. What is it about this offense that is irreplaceable?

A seventh string fullback white supremacist?

scttgrd
11-28-2010, 05:00 PM
You can criticize a lot, hell damn near everything, but lets leave that bull**** about having a good offense in the trash heap. We all know 2008 had a ****ty offense.

How many wins did that team manage? Isn't the wins that matter?

HILife
11-28-2010, 05:02 PM
I guess most of all, I'd like to know what supporters of Josh are so high on - what has he done or produced that makes you want to keep him so badly?

I think it's the potential. Speaking for myself, I'm a believer in giving a coach 3 years to put together a respectable team. Assuming the organization hired a competent coach, which I think Mcdaniels is.

go_broncos
11-28-2010, 05:03 PM
I think it's the potential. Speaking for myself, I'm a believer in giving a coach 3 years to put together a respectable team.

Please don't call him a coach.

Broncos4tw
11-28-2010, 05:04 PM
We need to accept that we didn't have a strong part of the team. We were running on fumes for years.

That's ridiculous. The offense needed some work, but the D needed serious work, it was bottom in so many categories. And instead of reworking the D, we overhaul the offense. The offense wasn't "running on fumes." It was just having issues scoring in the redzone. It was moving the ball just fine.

So now, we have a reworked offense that STILL has issues scoring in the redzone (doing better the last few weeks though), and while racking up a lot of yards, isn't getting the job done. And the defense is worse than ever. AND we fired the only guy worth a damn trying to make it work.

TonyR
11-28-2010, 05:05 PM
I don't understand why people are so interested in keeping Josh around and just hiring a GM.

Probably because that's what should have been done in the first place. And also because of Tim Tebow and the fact that McD clearly knows how to coach QB's if nothing else.

lostknight
11-28-2010, 05:06 PM
I don't understand why people are so interested in keeping Josh around and just hiring a GM. What is it about this offense that is irreplaceable?

I started that thread. After this week, I officially reconsider.

Broncoman13
11-28-2010, 05:06 PM
I don't understand why people are so interested in keeping Josh around and just hiring a GM. What is it about this offense that is irreplaceable?

Personnel. You get rid of Josh and you have to be ready to change the whole system with little time to make the changes. Complicating the issue is teams would only have a few weeks together if a lockout were to occur.

The reason a GM type makes sense is they have control. You think Todd Haley would have made the choice to bring in two high profile coordinators? You think Eric Mangini decides to draft McCoy without Holmgren there... or bring in Delhomme/Wallace? A GM allows McD ti focus on Xs and Os. It also gives the team a buffer between personnel and the front office. Right now, the front office is coaching and too close to the players. I doubt a trade of Alphonso Smith is made with a GM, who is responsible for personnel, running the show. Same can be said for numerous other players we have traded or cut. Just my opinion and I have asked this question to a few different people with connections to the team. I won't say there is no chance, but it's slim. More likely, McD is gone and we are starting over... Hopefully with a focus on defense this time!

Denver724
11-28-2010, 05:07 PM
I don't understand why people are so interested in keeping Josh around and just hiring a GM. What is it about this offense that is irreplaceable?

A proper GM will want to come in and hire his own staff. Bringing in a GM and telling him he has to keep Josh will get us a GM that is not really a GM.

Broncos4tw
11-28-2010, 05:08 PM
I think it's the potential. Speaking for myself, I'm a believer in giving a coach 3 years to put together a respectable team. Assuming the organization hired a competent coach, which I think Mcdaniels is.

Actually, if you follow the NFL, you know full well the way it actually goes. Players and coaches alike - they start on one team, go through the tough breaks and learning curve, get fired or cut, and then produce on another team. Happens all the time. I am a bit tired of taking in "prospects" only to have them ditched so we can start over again.

Imo, it started badly right off. Cutler had a bad attitude? Whatever.. MANY players have bad attitudes. Josh's supposed area of expertise was developing QBs! And so.. he cuts a QB with a ton of potential. And it has gone downhill since.

The only real bright spot imo has been Lloyd.. but there is no way Josh knew he would produce like this. And Lloyd.. again, was another player who was cut.. and finally is finding potential on another team.

Josh may never produce on this team. We'll probably train him up just enough to get rid of him and rebuild.. again.. while he goes off and is a success elsewhere. Because I do feel once he matures and gets some experience, he'll be a solid coach.

HILife
11-28-2010, 05:08 PM
Stats = wins.

Can't you people see it?

Finally, somebody sees what I see. lol

UberBroncoMan
11-28-2010, 05:08 PM
we just put up 33, how many times did 07 and 08 broncos do that? mcdaniels has made a ton of mistakes and it may be over for him, but i hate the revisionist history that people have about cutler and those offenses

Our first 3 games in 2008 actually.

41, 39, and 34 respectively.

We also put 34 up at Cleavland and NYJ that same year... so 5 times.

scttgrd
11-28-2010, 05:08 PM
As if we have the right players to win games, keeping things as they are would change that how?

enjolras
11-28-2010, 05:11 PM
We need to accept that we didn't have a strong part of the team. We were running on fumes for years.

This. This. This. This. This. AND This.

There are far to many delusional homers on this board who think "we had a superbowl team and then Bowlen fired Shannahan and it all went up in smoke." They live in some sort of fairy tale world in which those 8-8 teams were just a step away from greatness.

They weren't. The defense was utterly and unbelievably bad. We we're weak on the offensive fronts. We wore down over the course of every season. We had a team full of entitled children.

Blowing things up is painful, and I'm not sure that McDaniels is the right man for this job. But at least he's had the balls to blow the thing up and try a different direction. Whether it's McDaniels (who I am rapidly losing faith in) or someone else, a 3 win season is really want this franchise has needed for a long time.

Rohirrim
11-28-2010, 05:12 PM
I don't think it much matters. Like John Lynch said, this team doesn't have a bunch of good rookies playing behind vets. We have so-so vets playing behind vets. The team is old. We're ten years away at best, if we don't **** it up. This team needs four or five years of high draft picks. Bottom floor. Too bad we're coming into this CBA thing. We won't be able to trade away any of these vets for draft picks. Especially the defense which has sucked for years. We have to bring in a very good D-coordinator and let him put it together for four or five years. Whether Josh stays or not is immaterial. The most important position on this team now is the guy who makes the draft picks and trades.

I agree with Lynch. This defense hasn't had any continuity for ten years.

zdoor
11-28-2010, 05:13 PM
We need to accept that we didn't have a strong part of the team. We were running on fumes for years.

Sorry but you are wrong...

colonelbeef
11-28-2010, 05:13 PM
You can criticize a lot, hell damn near everything, but lets leave that bull**** about having a good offense in the trash heap. We all know 2008 had a ****ty offense.

False of course

zdoor
11-28-2010, 05:16 PM
This. This. This. This. This. AND This.

There are far to many delusional homers on this board who think "we had a superbowl team and then Bowlen fired Shannahan and it all went up in smoke." They live in some sort of fairy tale world in which those 8-8 teams were just a step away from greatness.

They weren't. The defense was utterly and unbelievably bad.

Blowing things up is painful, and I'm not sure that McDaniels is the right man for this job. But at least he's had the balls to blow the thing up and try a different direction. Whether it's McDaniels (who I am rapidly losing faith in) or someone else, a 3 win season is really want this franchise has needed for a long time.

No one claims that offense was perfect but in most "rebuilds" in any sport, business or venture in life you would be a fool not to start with the obvious weakest part...

Popps
11-28-2010, 05:17 PM
I can't believe that we are that team. The one even the announcers make fun of. Hell today the even said that Thunder might pull a hammy.

I don't like being THAT TEAM.

Hate to break this to you, but we've been that team for a while. The announcers were calling us an embarrassment in Shanahan's last game against San Diego on national TV. It's nothing new

I don't really care what other people think. I just want this thing turned around.

epicSocialism4tw
11-28-2010, 05:18 PM
What he has done with Lloyd is impressive, but it pretty much ends there.

Orton has been good too, but just not good enough.

mhgaffney
11-28-2010, 05:18 PM
Hillis came back to haunt again -- by scoring 3 TDs.

Cutler beat Philly -- passing for 4 TDs -- without an IT.

It just gets worse.

enjolras
11-28-2010, 05:19 PM
Actually, if you follow the NFL, you know full well the way it actually goes. Players and coaches alike - they start on one team, go through the tough breaks and learning curve, get fired or cut, and then produce on another team. Happens all the time. I am a bit tired of taking in "prospects" only to have them ditched so we can start over again.

Imo, it started badly right off. Cutler had a bad attitude? Whatever.. MANY players have bad attitudes. Josh's supposed area of expertise was developing QBs! And so.. he cuts a QB with a ton of potential. And it has gone downhill since.

Revisionist history. Cutlers initial tantrum was aimed at Bowlen when he fired Shannahan. Cutler was going to be a royal pain in the ass for any coach who came in here. He got his precious little feelings hurt because the owner of the team made a decision he didn't like.

He didn't cut a QB with a ton of potential, Cutler 100% whined his way out of Denver. Good riddance to him as well. He's always going to struggle when the pressure is truly on (see Philip Rivers). Just wait for the playoffs this year... you'll see exactly the type of person that Jay Cutler is.

The only real bright spot imo has been Lloyd.. but there is no way Josh knew he would produce like this. And Lloyd.. again, was another player who was cut.. and finally is finding potential on another team.

Josh may never produce on this team. We'll probably train him up just enough to get rid of him and rebuild.. again.. while he goes off and is a success elsewhere. Because I do feel once he matures and gets some experience, he'll be a solid coach.

I agree. It sucks, but I think we as fans and the franchise as a whole really has to be ready to dig in and deal with the development of the coach (although I'm waffling in how much faith I have in him) and a lot of young talent that he has to work with. It's just better to be really bad than it is to be mediocre. We've been nothing but average for more than a decade. This is the start of finally healing.

HILife
11-28-2010, 05:19 PM
Actually, if you follow the NFL, you know full well the way it actually goes. Players and coaches alike - they start on one team, go through the tough breaks and learning curve, get fired or cut, and then produce on another team. Happens all the time. I am a bit tired of taking in "prospects" only to have them ditched so we can start over again.

Imo, it started badly right off. Cutler had a bad attitude? Whatever.. MANY players have bad attitudes. Josh's supposed area of expertise was developing QBs! And so.. he cuts a QB with a ton of potential. And it has gone downhill since.

The only real bright spot imo has been Lloyd.. but there is no way Josh knew he would produce like this. And Lloyd.. again, was another player who was cut.. and finally is finding potential on another team.

Josh may never produce on this team. We'll probably train him up just enough to get rid of him and rebuild.. again.. while he goes off and is a success elsewhere. Because I do feel once he matures and gets some experience, he'll be a solid coach.

Fair enough. I don't agree with all of it, but fair enough. As I understand Bowlen was the one who made the decision to trade Cutler. Also their are alot of first time coaches that have or is doing well, Mike Tomlin, Ken Whisenhunt (other years haha), Raheem Morris, etc. By the way, Tomlin and Morris were in their early 30s when they started.

enjolras
11-28-2010, 05:20 PM
False of course

Yep.. it was a tremendously mediocre offense.

gyldenlove
11-28-2010, 05:20 PM
You can criticize a lot, hell damn near everything, but lets leave that bull**** about having a good offense in the trash heap. We all know 2008 had a ****ty offense.

Funny you should say that, the 2008 offense was better than this years offense in every concievable way, scored more points, converted more 3rd downs, better red zone scoring - all the important things in life, oh and it also won more games!

Popps
11-28-2010, 05:20 PM
I don't think it much matters. Like John Lynch said, this team doesn't have a bunch of good rookies playing behind vets. We have so-so vets playing behind vets. The team is old. We're ten years away at best, if we don't **** it up. This team needs four or five years of high draft picks. Bottom floor. Too bad we're coming into this CBA thing. We won't be able to trade away any of these vets for draft picks. Especially the defense which has sucked for years. We have to bring in a very good D-coordinator and let him put it together for four or five years. Whether Josh stays or not is immaterial. The most important position on this team now is the guy who makes the draft picks and trades.

I agree with Lynch. This defense hasn't had any continuity for ten years.

That's an overstatement in today's NFL. Marginal teams can make progress in a hurry.

Agree that personnel is the key, though we've got more youth than Lynch was giving us credit for. Won't go into it, but we've got some talented young defenders.

The defense IS the issue, of course. We've tried to tinker and it just hasn't worked out. Somehow we managed to stuff the run all day, and just can't stop a 3rd down throw to save our lives.

It's way too early, but I'm not sure Wink knows what the **** he's doing out there.

HILife
11-28-2010, 05:22 PM
This. This. This. This. This. AND This.

There are far to many delusional homers on this board who think "we had a superbowl team and then Bowlen fired Shannahan and it all went up in smoke." They live in some sort of fairy tale world in which those 8-8 teams were just a step away from greatness.

They weren't. The defense was utterly and unbelievably bad. We we're weak on the offensive fronts. We wore down over the course of every season. We had a team full of entitled children.

Blowing things up is painful, and I'm not sure that McDaniels is the right man for this job. But at least he's had the balls to blow the thing up and try a different direction. Whether it's McDaniels (who I am rapidly losing faith in) or someone else, a 3 win season is really want this franchise has needed for a long time.

Broncos fans are spooled. Always winning and hardly ever loosing made them forget that sometimes **** happens.

fontaine
11-28-2010, 05:22 PM
I love this team.

It's been ugly this year for sure but I'm not among the those who think this team is finished.

I see an offense lead by Orton that is a bright spot, a running game that is getting better (slowly) but a dismissal defense that has hamstrung my beloved Broncos.

Most of us know what needs to be done. It SHOULD have been done years ago. Draft for the DL, bring in quality free agents for the front 7 instead of journeymen and hire a real DC who can unleash hell so that QB's shiver at the thought of playing in mile high.

We've gone through 3 QBs, numerous RBs, different OL and now on our 2nd head coach but the one constant that has not changed is a mediocre to piss poor defense that is an embaressment to every fan out there.

We've waited long enough. Give us fans that bleed orange and blue an orange crush front 7.

Go Broncos.

mhgaffney
11-28-2010, 05:27 PM
What does this mean?

"bring in quality free agents for the front 7 instead of journeymen..."

Give me a break. The OM has become as ridiculous as the Broncos.

Royalfan19
11-28-2010, 05:30 PM
Well, oddly enough we could recycle the exact arguments you made for keeping Shanahan around. It's pretty much the same thing. Shall I go back?

"We should expect to lose! We're in the middle of a rebuild! You don't stop a rebuild a year and a half in!"

Those arguments sat well with you two years ago, Taco. What changed?

We were 8 and 8 on a season where we had nearly 10 guys on IR, brought tatum bell back from retirement because San Diego took all the RBs off the waiver wire just to get at us. I think finishing at .500 in that particular situation is different than whats going on here...

we just put up 33, how many times did 07 and 08 broncos do that? mcdaniels has made a ton of mistakes and it may be over for him, but i hate the revisionist history that people have about cutler and those offenses

We passed that mark five times in the first 10 weeks of 2008 alone, where we had at least 1 running back (Hillis finally went down week 11).

jutang
11-28-2010, 05:32 PM
It's way too early, but I'm not sure Wink knows what the **** he's doing out there.

You are way too kind.

When Lynch, a commentator, mentions... this is the same play St. Louis ran last week for a touchdown or when Amendola is in, the play is designed for him... it's pretty damning on the coaching staff not preparing the players.

Repeated instances of calling time outs for not having enough people on the field. It really seems like once per game! They had 3 near misses in the SD game, watching from the stands.

Wink is making Slowik seem like Buddy Ryan.

On a completely different topic, Lynch is one of the best commentators I've heard in awhile.

Archer81
11-28-2010, 05:34 PM
**** happens. It was bound to happen to Denver eventually. Fire the coach, dont fire the coach, cry about ex players, dont cry about them, bitch about "cheating" or dont. This is a horrific season. May it end quickly.

:Broncos:

Popps
11-28-2010, 05:43 PM
You are way too kind.

When Lynch, a commentator, mentions... this is the same play St. Louis ran last week for a touchdown or when Amendola is in, the play is designed for him... it's pretty damning on the coaching staff not preparing the players.

Repeated instances of calling time outs for not having enough people on the field. It really seems like once per game! They had 3 near misses in the SD game, watching from the stands.

Wink is making Slowik seem like Buddy Ryan.

On a completely different topic, Lynch is one of the best commentators I've heard in awhile.


We coached horribly today.

Bronco Boy
11-28-2010, 05:59 PM
We're kind of like this team now:

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/8636127" width="400" height="300" frameborder="0"></iframe><p><a href="http://vimeo.com/8636127"> </a> <a href="http://vimeo.com/user2573306"> </a> <a href="http://vimeo.com"> </a></p>

errand
11-28-2010, 06:02 PM
I guess most of all, I'd like to know what supporters of Josh are so high on - what has he done or produced that makes you want to keep him so badly?

I love the Broncos..not any one player...or coach. Having said that I'll explain why I like him as our head coach....

[] He's in control of this team...the inmates aren't running the asylum like they did in Shanahan's final 10 seasons.

[] He's done a better job of drafting so far than Mike did the last few seasons. We've gotten some pretty decent players in Moreno, Tebow, Thomas....potential cornerstones of the future. Other than the '06 draft, Mike virtually sucked the last decade.

[] He's coached Kyle Orton into a potential franchise QB who is on pace to set franchise season records for QB rating, yards thrown and TD tosses.

[] He's built a team first culture that cares more about winning than stats...and is getting rid of well-documented malcontents like Cutler and Marshall and replacing them with guys like Orton and Gaffney, etc....

[] He's a fiery coach that isn't afraid to make tough decisions regardless of what the fans and media think. even if he makes the wrong call...he's not a fence sitter like Wade Phillips and Brad Childress are.

[] He's built a very good passing game that doesn't turn the ball over 2-3 times a game on a regular basis....and he's doing it with cast off guys like Gaffney, Lloyd...imagine how well it'll be once we fix the running game issues we have.

[] He's tried to infuse some youth and speed onto this team....mostly on the offensive side....the defensive side of the ball needs improving though, but Rome wasn't built in a day.

Bottom line is in my opinion, replacing McDaniels won't improve the Broncos..getting rid of clowns who can't tackle or cover me and replacing them with players who can, will.

Broncos_OTM
11-28-2010, 07:38 PM
Please don't call him a coach.

i guess we shouldnt call you a fan. Coach Mcd has more tlaent in his left pinky then you have in your whole body

go_broncos
11-28-2010, 07:41 PM
i guess we shouldnt call you a fan. Coach Mcd has more tlaent in his left pinky then you have in your whole body

you think so..ROFL!

TailgateNut
11-28-2010, 07:50 PM
any offense that can make orton and lloyd look like superstars has its perks.

That being said, i dont particularly care. A new coach means we are either dumping teblow or moving him to fb/rb so im ok with that move (more ok with just dumping his florida gator ass).

That being said, i dont want any shanahan disciples either. i want a ****ing defense i can be proud of. one that plays consistently tough all year long and doesn't fold even when they face elite qbs. I want an offense that pounds the ****ing rock in any weather against any offensive line in any situation so i do not want the zbs back in denver.

im ok with orton staying as a long term qb with whatever coach we have, assuming the aforementioned coach can do what i want because orton has his merits and can play well.


^5

TailgateNut
11-28-2010, 07:56 PM
you think so..ROFL!

No, we know so. You are a sad excuse for a human being. Just a little bitch on a neverending menstrual cycle.

MplsBronco
11-28-2010, 07:58 PM
I love the Broncos..not any one player...or coach. Having said that I'll explain why I like him as our head coach....

[] He's in control of this team...the inmates aren't running the asylum like they did in Shanahan's final 10 seasons.

[] He's done a better job of drafting so far than Mike did the last few seasons. We've gotten some pretty decent players in Moreno, Tebow, Thomas....potential cornerstones of the future. Other than the '06 draft, Mike virtually sucked the last decade.

[] He's coached Kyle Orton into a potential franchise QB who is on pace to set franchise season records for QB rating, yards thrown and TD tosses.

[] He's built a team first culture that cares more about winning than stats...and is getting rid of well-documented malcontents like Cutler and Marshall and replacing them with guys like Orton and Gaffney, etc....

[] He's a fiery coach that isn't afraid to make tough decisions regardless of what the fans and media think. even if he makes the wrong call...he's not a fence sitter like Wade Phillips and Brad Childress are.

[] He's built a very good passing game that doesn't turn the ball over 2-3 times a game on a regular basis....and he's doing it with cast off guys like Gaffney, Lloyd...imagine how well it'll be once we fix the running game issues we have.

[] He's tried to infuse some youth and speed onto this team....mostly on the offensive side....the defensive side of the ball needs improving though, but Rome wasn't built in a day.

Bottom line is in my opinion, replacing McDaniels won't improve the Broncos..getting rid of clowns who can't tackle or cover me and replacing them with players who can, will.

The root of the problem and the single biggest reason for the state of affairs here is the abysmal drafting over the last decade. With the exception of the 06 draft, our drafts were god awful. I will credit Shanny with being a great game day coach and managing to eek out 8-8 or 9-7 seasons with mediocre talent. But he has decimated this team for years to come. This team needs to be rebuilt thru the draft and that will take a good 3 years. I can only hope Xanders and McD are the guys to do it and I hope the rookies currently contributing continue to improve.

Garcia Bronco
11-28-2010, 08:26 PM
You are way too kind.

When Lynch, a commentator, mentions... this is the same play St. Louis ran last week for a touchdown or when Amendola is in, the play is designed for him... it's pretty damning on the coaching staff not preparing the players.

Repeated instances of calling time outs for not having enough people on the field. It really seems like once per game! They had 3 near misses in the SD game, watching from the stands.

Wink is making Slowik seem like Buddy Ryan.

On a completely different topic, Lynch is one of the best commentators I've heard in awhile.

Makes Greg Robinson look like Buddy Ryan.

Broncoman13
11-28-2010, 08:37 PM
I agree that Shanny left the cupboards bare of talent with weak draft after weak draft. But if you're trying to sell me on McDs draft you're going to have to bring up guys like Knowshon, Ayers, Alphonso Smith, Darcell McBath, Richard Quinn, Seth Olsen, David Bruton, DT, Tebow, Beadles, and Walton. That's 11 players drafted in the first three rounds. Of those 11, I would objectively say that 4 are going to be players for us in every down situations. 4 are question marks, and 3 are wastes.

Ayers, Knowshon, Beadles, and Walton look like players. Not all pro type players but solid starters.

Bruton, DT, Tebow, and McBath are all question marks. Bruton makes up for some of his primary position question marks with good STs play. Being perfectly honest, DT scares me with how reckless yet fragile he plays. Easy to get excited about his potential, but if he's always singed what good is he? Tebow is probably the biggest question mark of this group, we really don't know what we have with him... But I am not thrilled that a young, inexperienced brother of Josh McD is the one we are trusting to develope our franchise QB! McBath is pretty much the same as DT. Lots of promise bit always dinged.

Alphonso, Quinn and Olsen are all worthless to us at this point. Wouldn't be that big of a deal other than the fact that you traded a first for Smith, two thirds for Quinn and Olsen. The really sad part which I don't want to spend too much time on b/c it's pointless but many here thought when we traded for that #37pick was for Mauluga or Ron Brace. Quinn we all hoped would be Shonn Greene though most of us realized that wouldn't happen after Knowshon.

The point is, we have four soils building blocks from the last two drafts. We have four more guys that may pan out as they are very promising. And I think I have been very optimistic in my projections. You could easily put WAlton and Beadles into the question mark pot, but their last few games have been more promising. Not exactly a lot of young guys coming up the pipeline.

MplsBronco
11-28-2010, 08:46 PM
Fair enough and I agree the jury is still out on McD and his drafts. But I am willing to give a pass on the first draft because everything here began and ended with Shanny and to expect McD to have everything in order in the few months from his hire to the time of the draft is tough.

Again, I can only hope that the guys from last year's draft continue to improve. At least several are making contributions this year, even if on a ****ty team. At least they are getting experience and learning the ropes of the NFL.

jhns
11-28-2010, 08:49 PM
Revisionist history. Cutlers initial tantrum was aimed at Bowlen when he fired Shannahan. Cutler was going to be a royal pain in the ass for any coach who came in here. He got his precious little feelings hurt because the owner of the team made a decision he didn't like.

He didn't cut a QB with a ton of potential, Cutler 100% whined his way out of Denver. Good riddance to him as well. He's always going to struggle when the pressure is truly on (see Philip Rivers). Just wait for the playoffs this year... you'll see exactly the type of person that Jay Cutler is.


LOL

Not one part of that is true. I bet you cant even show the first thing you said. What tantrum was aimed at Bowlen? As for the second paragraph, LOL.... Have you watched this season? He has more 4th quarter comebacks than this team has wins. What a smart post.

It is funny that people still make crap up to defend this trash front office. Bowlen needs to come to his senses and get rid of just about everyone. I really hope he hasn't gone Al Davis 2.0 on us.

You Raider fans keep backing this crap. I would love to see this happen to the Broncos if I was a Raiders fan too. I get it, really.

MplsBronco
11-28-2010, 08:51 PM
Oh and like many others I am pissed that McD couldn't find a use for Hillis and watching him epitomize what McD preaches (toughness). Most other trades I am okay with. I just have to hope that McD can turn this around and with what has happened and the commitment made to him (and all his moves) we have to give him another year to see if he can turn it around. Otherwise, we are starting over again.

mr007
11-28-2010, 08:57 PM
I love this team.

It's been ugly this year for sure but I'm not among the those who think this team is finished.

I see an offense lead by Orton that is a bright spot, a running game that is getting better (slowly) but a dismissal defense that has hamstrung my beloved Broncos.

Most of us know what needs to be done. It SHOULD have been done years ago. Draft for the DL, bring in quality free agents for the front 7 instead of journeymen and hire a real DC who can unleash hell so that QB's shiver at the thought of playing in mile high.

We've gone through 3 QBs, numerous RBs, different OL and now on our 2nd head coach but the one constant that has not changed is a mediocre to piss poor defense that is an embaressment to every fan out there.

We've waited long enough. Give us fans that bleed orange and blue an orange crush front 7.

Go Broncos.

Good post.

cabronco
11-28-2010, 08:59 PM
[QUOTE=Quoydogs;3022820]I can't believe that we are that team. The one even the announcers make fun of. Hell today the even said that Thunder might pull a hammy. I have been a Broncos fan my whole life but this is lowest I have ever felt.


Umm I said that during the game today while they were showing Thunder with a quilt on. Somebody's stealing my posts ! But thats ok have at it.

strafen
11-28-2010, 08:59 PM
Well, oddly enough we could recycle the exact arguments you made for keeping Shanahan around. It's pretty much the same thing. Shall I go back?

"We should expect to lose! We're in the middle of a rebuild! You don't stop a rebuild a year and a half in!"

Those arguments sat well with you two years ago, Taco. What changed?Here we go again, the rebuilt word and Shanahan make their appearance to divert attention from McDaniels.
Unbelievable!

Maybe in your mind we're rebuilding, but judging by McDaniels moves and what he's done with the draft, indicates otherwise.
About "rearrange" what you've already had?

gunns
11-28-2010, 09:01 PM
Any offense that can make Orton and Lloyd look like superstars has its perks.

That being said, I dont particularly care. A new coach means we are either dumping Teblow or moving him to FB/RB so Im OK with that move (more OK with just dumping his Florida Gator ass).

That being said, I dont want any Shanahan disciples either. I want a ****ing defense I can be proud of. One that plays consistently tough all year long and doesn't fold even when they face elite QBs. I want an offense that pounds the ****ing rock in any weather against any offensive line in any situation so I do NOT want the ZBS back in Denver.

Im OK with Orton staying as a long term QB with whatever coach we have, assuming the aforementioned coach can do what I want because Orton has his merits and can play well.

Excellent. Exactly what I would like also.

gunns
11-28-2010, 09:16 PM
This. This. This. This. This. AND This.

There are far to many delusional homers on this board who think "we had a superbowl team and then Bowlen fired Shannahan and it all went up in smoke." They live in some sort of fairy tale world in which those 8-8 teams were just a step away from greatness.

They weren't. The defense was utterly and unbelievably bad. We we're weak on the offensive fronts. We wore down over the course of every season. We had a team full of entitled children.

Blowing things up is painful, and I'm not sure that McDaniels is the right man for this job. But at least he's had the balls to blow the thing up and try a different direction. Whether it's McDaniels (who I am rapidly losing faith in) or someone else, a 3 win season is really want this franchise has needed for a long time.

I agree with this. But I have to say it isn't the 3 win season that has bothered me. It's the way some of those games were lost. The Raider game, the SD game, the SF game, the majority of today's game. I've been through bad seasons with the Broncos but the players came out to play. These guys look like a bunch of novices that have never played before. Orton's all gung ho if they are winning, if losing he looks like a whipped puppy. That's not a leader. No, we don't have all the talent we need but we have talent, much more than is displayed on the field. And there's one person who holds the majority of the blame and that's McD. He's the coach.

ZONA
11-28-2010, 09:21 PM
No team stays great forever and even the bad teams eventually turn things around and become winners, even if it's briefly, like the AZ cards from the previous year. The 49'ers and Cowboys were great teams and had lagit dynasty tags on them, now they suck. The Patriots were horrible for decades, now they are an excellent team. It's the cycle that is the NFL. We just have to ride this out. The Broncos will once again become an excellent team. Just try not to go crazy and lose your marbles between now and then.

jutang
11-28-2010, 09:28 PM
Makes Greg Robinson look like Buddy Ryan.

Sad but true. At least Robinson's blitzes worked now and then.

TDmvp
11-28-2010, 09:29 PM
a 3 win season is really want this franchise has needed for a long time.

http://www.meh.ro/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/meh.ro5776.jpg


Dude every time someone says something that literally makes me ponder WTF I look up and it's you , and thank god I didn't type what you did.Someone would go all grammar nazi on me...


But yea 3 win seasons are great , You should move to Cincinnati you would love the Bengals they will give you 7 of those a decade.

On what planet does a 3 win season in anyway help a franchise besides a higher draft pick , and living in Cincinnati I can tell you all about having tons of high picks in a row and it meaning jack..

All a 3 win season equals is your star players took a year of beating for nothing for you to get to open a "better" mystery box in the draft.

Hercules Rockefeller
11-28-2010, 09:31 PM
Olsen and Bruton were 4th round picks

Dr.5280
11-28-2010, 09:35 PM
No team stays great forever and even the bad teams eventually turn things around and become winners, even if it's briefly, like the AZ cards from the previous year. The 49'ers and Cowboys were great teams and had lagit dynasty tags on them, now they suck. The Patriots were horrible for decades, now they are an excellent team. It's the cycle that is the NFL. We just have to ride this out. The Broncos will once again become an excellent team. Just try not to go crazy and lose your marbles between now and then.

best post yet to come.:strong:

cabronco
11-28-2010, 09:38 PM
I agree with this. But I have to say it isn't the 3 win season that has bothered me. It's the way some of those games were lost. The Raider game, the SD game, the SF game, the majority of today's game. I've been through bad seasons with the Broncos but the players came out to play. These guys look like a bunch of novices that have never played before. Orton's all gung ho if they are winning, if losing he looks like a whipped puppy. That's not a leader. No, we don't have all the talent we need but we have talent, much more than is displayed on the field. And there's one person who holds the majority of the blame and that's McD. He's the coach.

Good post Gunns. I agree with pretty much all you said. Its the darn blow outs teams have put on the Broncos that bother me. While the team looks lifeless & more than willing to take the beating. Orton looks like he's all pro with his first drive , but when the opposing team goes thru the defense like butter, or our offense sputters at all, he has no leadership capabilities. He goes off the field with his tail between his legs. I rarely see him trying to fire up the teammates on Offense or defense. McD has put his mark on this team and it looks more finesse/ pass happy, and when it gets tough they fold like match sticks. He couldnt stick to a running game if you paid him. Not to mention the lack of fortifying some resemblence of a defense. I realize he's been coach just for over a year and a half, but things arent looking any brighter for the team.

lostknight
11-28-2010, 09:39 PM
We've traded mediocre, but in it every year for utterly dismal bottom of the NFL. And yes, no one takes this team seriously any more. There are not talented linemen out there to be had - teams know better then to drain their lines now. The only players you find out there are on their third contract, and therefore really iffy.

You can always find a start wide receiver, especially in McDaniels system. We have a systematic problem at RB. We have a complete gap at TE. But every draft pick we have needs to be front three, linebackers, safeties and corners. Pick up one offensive lineman as a matter of principle each year.

cabronco
11-28-2010, 09:43 PM
We coached horribly today.


Well its not like he didnt have fifty thousand things on his mind. :clown:

wandlc
11-28-2010, 11:16 PM
we just put up 33, how many times did 07 and 08 broncos do that? mcdaniels has made a ton of mistakes and it may be over for him, but i hate the revisionist history that people have about cutler and those offenses

5 times in 08 and 4 times in 07, this year 3 times so far. What was your point?

Hulamau
11-29-2010, 01:02 AM
[QUOTE=enjolras;3022989]This. This. This. This. This. AND This.

There are far to many delusional homers on this board who think "we had a superbowl team and then Bowlen fired Shannahan and it all went up in smoke." They live in some sort of fairy tale world in which those 8-8 teams were just a step away from greatness.

They weren't. The defense was utterly and unbelievably bad. We we're weak on the offensive fronts. We wore down over the course of every season. We had a team full of entitled children.

Blowing things up is painful, and I'm not sure that McDaniels is the right man for this job. But at least he's had the balls to blow the thing up and try a different direction. Whether it's McDaniels (who I am rapidly losing faith in) or someone else, a 3 win season is really want this franchise has needed for a long time.[/QUOTE

Solid points Enjorlas,

Still Have McDs back though was disappointed his immaturity allowed the spygate t hing to intrude. No way that didnt effect his preparation and energy for the last two games as well as the rest of the staff being grilled by NFL security.... Not at all what we needed right now.'

Am pleased he didnt ordered the taping and had the character to not watch it. But too bad he hired this clown to begin with. Hope Josh learns from this and stops with his ex patriot/friends hirings.

And this revisionist history on how close we were to a SB in 2008 is a total joke.

IF Josh can survive this season and clean up some of his mistakes as well, get a chcance to fully implement his rebuild with the obvious focus on D with stud RT and a middle or FA RB opposite KM he still has a chance to make some wine from the muddy water we've got now.

We do need a solid strong GM so the whole show isnt on his shoulders. Events now seem to be snowballing andmaybe he doesnt make it.

The real crapper would be canning the guy at the bottom of the well just when we may have hit bottom and just need one good offseason ( and perhaps another DC and Oline coach) and some better injury luck to finish turning the whole thing around.

We do have some pieces in place andjsut need a few more.... Starting over again now with the uncertainties of next year is Very risky business.

Starting over as we did two years ago with a first time 32 year old HC automatically brings growing pains, and calmer heads are needed to make sure we dont throw the baby out with the bathwater a year or two too soon!

Granted though, the mini-spygate thing bookended by back to back losses doesnt help...

Hulamau
11-29-2010, 01:19 AM
I love the Broncos..not any one player...or coach. Having said that I'll explain why I like him as our head coach....

[] He's in control of this team...the inmates aren't running the asylum like they did in Shanahan's final 10 seasons.

[] He's done a better job of drafting so far than Mike did the last few seasons. We've gotten some pretty decent players in Moreno, Tebow, Thomas....potential cornerstones of the future. Other than the '06 draft, Mike virtually sucked the last decade.

[] He's coached Kyle Orton into a potential franchise QB who is on pace to set franchise season records for QB rating, yards thrown and TD tosses.

[] He's built a team first culture that cares more about winning than stats...and is getting rid of well-documented malcontents like Cutler and Marshall and replacing them with guys like Orton and Gaffney, etc....

[] He's a fiery coach that isn't afraid to make tough decisions regardless of what the fans and media think. even if he makes the wrong call...he's not a fence sitter like Wade Phillips and Brad Childress are.

[] He's built a very good passing game that doesn't turn the ball over 2-3 times a game on a regular basis....and he's doing it with cast off guys like Gaffney, Lloyd...imagine how well it'll be once we fix the running game issues we have.

[] He's tried to infuse some youth and speed onto this team....mostly on the offensive side....the defensive side of the ball needs improving though, but Rome wasn't built in a day.

Bottom line is in my opinion, replacing McDaniels won't improve the Broncos..getting rid of clowns who can't tackle or cover me and replacing them with players who can, will.

Thats pretty much my view as well.

Expected a couple years of rough sledding no matter what coach took over after seeing how much work there was after a decade of more misses than hits in FA and draft with Shanny .... w've missed much of our core defensive players for msot of this season andwe still hjave at least 5 Defensive holes to fill plus keep restocking the bench.

If Josh can weather this year, suspect he will make big strides all around as well as the team. Talk about a crash course for a young guy ..... The thing isI suspect he will emerge stronger and more mature from all of this.

The question is are we going to run him out of town too soon now so some other team and fan base benefits from our growing pains or are we going to bite the bullet and roll the dice another year or two and see if we can be the place he brings it all together??

cutthemdown
11-29-2010, 01:39 AM
We will have to take our medicine. For us older fans we took it often in the early 80's from the Raiders. Then later we learned to beat them and it made us strong. But Howie Long, Greg Townsend, Bill Pickell and company used to school us like SD does now. Except even worst they won Superbowl one yr.

We will have to endure because what is the other option. Be a fan of a different team? Not watch? Not care? Cmon none of us can do that. Some of us will vent, some of us will go ra ra ra, some of us will just withdraw until it gets better, but all of us will stay Broncos fans and wait it out.

Jesterhole
11-29-2010, 04:40 AM
I think it's the potential. Speaking for myself, I'm a believer in giving a coach 3 years to put together a respectable team. Assuming the organization hired a competent coach, which I think Mcdaniels is.

The thing is, he's a coach...but Ellis wanted to make him head coach/GM, even though McDaniels has no experience at either. I don't mind him being the head coach...I think he has a good football mind, and could be a force in the league once he gets more experience.

But why in the world did we make this kid the GM too, and fire the only guys in the building with any kind of personnel experience? That's been the real tragedy in all of this.

Jesterhole
11-29-2010, 04:50 AM
i guess we shouldnt call you a fan. Coach Mcd has more tlaent in his left pinky then you have in your whole body

Is 'tlaent' french for 'pus$y'?

Broncoman13
11-29-2010, 06:11 AM
Olsen and Bruton were 4th round picks

Yup, but the Olsen picks was the result of us trading two 3rd rounders for a low 2nd and a mid 4th (Quinn and Olsen). But go ahead and pull out two 4th rounders if you think it helps support the case for having a bunch of young talent on this team to develop. The point of my post was that we don't have this "young talent" to develop. Who do you have on the front 7 on defense that is young to develop? Ayers and...and...and

~Crash~
11-29-2010, 06:27 AM
What does this mean?

"bring in quality free agents for the front 7 instead of journeymen..."

Give me a break. The OM has become as ridiculous as the Broncos.ROFL!look to Chicago dip **** ..

jhns
11-29-2010, 06:31 AM
5 times in 08 and 4 times in 07, this year 3 times so far. What was your point?

His point is that he is a McDaniels fan and didn't follow this team before McDaniels got here. How is he supposed to know anything about this team from before McDaniels? Stop being unreasonable.

It will be nice when the Denver McDaniels fans follow him out the door.

Broncos4tw
11-29-2010, 07:15 AM
[] He's in control of this team...the inmates aren't running the asylum like they did in Shanahan's final 10 seasons.

He seems to run his team with fear - he only brings in yes-men - I wouldn't call that "in control" of the team. Imo, a good team has players with talent, and that many times means have players with egos, and dealing with them. You can't build a winning "character" team. It's just not going to happen.

[] He's done a better job of drafting so far than Mike did the last few seasons. We've gotten some pretty decent players in Moreno, Tebow, Thomas....potential cornerstones of the future. Other than the '06 draft, Mike virtually sucked the last decade.

He did awful in the draft - our offense needed tweaking, our defense needed an overhaul. The last two years, he has focused on the offense, and made bad trades on defense. Cutting a potential star before we gave him a fair chance.. that was weak. What a horrible decision. It's ironic fans of McD have no issues with that cut, yet think it's "only fair" we give McD 3 years on our team.

[] He's coached Kyle Orton into a potential franchise QB who is on pace to set franchise season records for QB rating, yards thrown and TD tosses.

Orton looked vastly improved this year. He looked terrible last year. I was happily impressed with Orton's improvement. However, you give too much credence to his #'s - a huge % of those (over 45%), both yards and touchdowns, come after we are down 17 points. So.. yea, ok.. when we HAVE to pass the ball a ton, he puts up great #'s? Wish he was more mobile, but still, overall pleased with his growth.

[] He's built a team first culture that cares more about winning than stats...and is getting rid of well-documented malcontents like Cutler and Marshall and replacing them with guys like Orton and Gaffney, etc....

He is replacing any player who clashes with him with players who he can "mold" into his special brand of player. He is not replacing the team with "winners." Winning takes talent. He continues to cut talent players. And you are nuts if you don't think the team has utterly cashed it in during several games this year. Hardly the "winning attitude" you claim. They have given up time and again this year.

[] He's a fiery coach that isn't afraid to make tough decisions regardless of what the fans and media think. even if he makes the wrong call...he's not a fence sitter like Wade Phillips and Brad Childress are.

He is also incredibly inexperienced, and let go of any experienced coach on the team that might be able to help him. You act as if him believing he can do no wrong is a good thing. Believe me.. this is a bad thing. And I can do with less of the "fire" like.. when after scoring ONE touchdown, he is pumping his fist like we just won a SB.

[] He's built a very good passing game that doesn't turn the ball over 2-3 times a game on a regular basis....and he's doing it with cast off guys like Gaffney, Lloyd...imagine how well it'll be once we fix the running game issues we have.

How well is that working out for us? All those gaudy passing #'s.. means exactly zilch. This is the crux of the problem. He only knows powerhouse offense. That is what earned him his stripes in NE. So when he came here, he did the only thing he knew well, which was.. offense offense offense. He ignored the lines, he ignored a defense in dire need of an upgrade. You call this a plus? I call his tunnel-vision regarding our team's needs disturbing.

[] He's tried to infuse some youth and speed onto this team....mostly on the offensive side....the defensive side of the ball needs improving though, but Rome wasn't built in a day.

Defense should have been his top priority. Shanny was fired BECAUSE of Slowik and our horrible defense. Rome wasn't built in a day, but this isn't a pet project he can rebuilt over 10 years. He needs to produce winning changes. Instead, we have an absolutely laughable record, losing to the worst teams, and are last in the division. I don't see how you can say he has so many plusses, when the team has done nothing but plummet since he took over. The longer he is the coach, the worse the team gets.

Bottom line is in my opinion, replacing McDaniels won't improve the Broncos..getting rid of clowns who can't tackle or cover me and replacing them with players who can, will.[/QUOTE]

These are the players HE PICKED! He has had two years to get players / draft / trade / make the lines better. They are worse than I ever remember them!

He got rid of talented players and replacing them with "character" guys. He removed anyone who didn't get along with him, and coaches with know-how, and brought in buddies and even relatives. He is tearing the team apart. I honestly don't see all this "upside" to this coach. What I think will happen is another year of bad decisions, and poor season, bottom of the basement, and then.. we'll fire him, and he'll move on to another team, having gone through his learning curve.. and we'll have to start over again. How anyone can look out our anemic play, losing to a horrible Rams team at home.. making them look like a powerhouse offense, and say McD is a "good thing" for this team blows my mind.