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Mogulseeker
11-24-2010, 10:39 AM
Some good stuff in this article. I thought this one in particular stood out:

http://www.denverpost.com/broncosmailbag/ci_16695160

Do all these folks who are shouting for Josh McDaniels' ouster know what they are asking for? Sure, bring in another head coach with another "system." The flavor of that stew will be three years of "rebuilding." It would have been nice if Pat Bowlen had hired a coach who would fit the system to the talent, but he went the other way. If McDaniels gets the hook, get used to the cellar, folks.
-- Dana David, Phoenix

Amid the outrage comes rational thought. When Bowlen, Ellis and the Broncos coaching search committee hired McDaniels in January 2009, they weren't just bringing in a new leader; they were tapping into the consistently successful methods of the New England Patriots.

Acceptance of the Patriot Way doesn't come easy around these parts, especially when success doesn't come quickly. I think McDaniels will get one more season to bring a postseason game back to Denver. (A playoff game, by itself, doesn't necessarily rock Bowlen's boat. He wants his fans and team revenues to benefit from all that comes with a "home" playoff game.)

If next season is like this season, Bowlen will seriously consider making a change. But as you pointed out, Dana, careful what you wish for. After investing so much in McDaniels and the Patriots offensive and defensive systems, the Broncos could get worse before they get better. Not that it gets much worse than 3-7.

jhns
11-24-2010, 10:49 AM
How do you get worse than losing to some of the worst teams in the league and letting a crap turds team drop 59 on you? I don't get it. Many coaches have come in and turned franchises around. We would be set back only if they again made the wrong decision for the next coach.

As for this Patriot way crap, we don't do anything like the Patriots. They sign bad character playersand also had a GM that had more power than their coach...

Anyways, people would accept growing pains and losing seasons if the front office wasn't continually cutting its nose off in spite of its face. No one expected him to make this team great right away. I'm not sure why people think that is the only reason for wanting McDaniels gone. Anyways, how would allowing him to further trash the franchise be worse than getting a new coach that may or may not turn it around? That doesn't make much sense.

Mogulseeker
11-24-2010, 10:51 AM
- this message is hidden because jhns is on your ignore list. -

misturanderson
11-24-2010, 10:54 AM
- -

And we all thank you.

jhns
11-24-2010, 10:54 AM
Well the drama queen sure showed me!

TonyR
11-24-2010, 11:07 AM
They...had a GM that had more power than their coach...


This one needs some explanation.

bendog
11-24-2010, 11:15 AM
yeah, I don't get that one either. I still think McDaniels is hitting the panic button with knee jerk dumbass moves, like maroney and the trade up with NE to get D.Thomas. But Bowlen gave him the keys, and mistakes will happen. Being unprepared for a draft is inexcusable, and then trading a first to get a second knowing you're unprepared ... unfreaking believable.

But Billicheat's in charge. And, I don't see that McDaniels screwups have to do with a lack of assistants. It seems more a lack of experience. Time will tell if his arrogance prevents his learning to do better.

vancejohnson82
11-24-2010, 11:17 AM
This one needs some explanation.

you can't expect him to explain anything....alll he knows how to do is bash the current regime but offers to other kind of plan or thoughts...

strafen
11-24-2010, 11:32 AM
Bringing rhe New england way.
The New England way is Bellichek. Mcdaniels is NOT Bellichek.

I'm yet to see a coach from the Bellichek tree have any success of their own in the NFL or college.
That should tell you all you need to know...

TonyR
11-24-2010, 11:33 AM
yeah, I don't get that one either.

I assume he thinks Pioli had more power than Belichick but I don't know that that's true. I suppose it's possible that they had equal power but I seriously doubt that Pioli had more control than Belichick. All that said, I'd prefer a situation where the GM runs the show.

vancejohnson82
11-24-2010, 11:35 AM
Bringing rhe New england way.
The New England way is Bellichek. Mcdaniels is NOT Bellichek.

I'm yet to see a coach from the Bellichek tree have any success of their own in the NFL or college.
That should tell you all you need to know...

Mangini brought in Hillis...so he's going to the hall of fame

steeledude
11-24-2010, 11:40 AM
No patriots assistants have had success as head coaches.

New coaches have turned things around in the same amount of time. Raheem Morris has grown tremendously in a year. Haley has the Chiefs playing far better, he really just needs a halfway competent QB. Shanahan at the Redskins (who sucks, but are nowhere near as bad as they've been).

We're getting worse. If we have a top 5 pick, it's time to cut our losses and move on. But for crying out loud, bring in someone who wants the highly questionable young talent we have. It's bad enough we got a guy who rid of our pro bowl talent, but a new coach should at least be very open to developing guys like Thomas and Tebow.

bendog
11-24-2010, 11:43 AM
I assume he thinks Pioli had more power than Belichick but I don't know that that's true. I suppose it's possible that they had equal power but I seriously doubt that Pioli had more control than Belichick. All that said, I'd prefer a situation where the GM runs the show.

Beats me what he meant. I'd agree that NE does have more front office experience than Xanders in terms of talent evaluation. But, I don't think McDaniels draft/personel screwups are that he can't evaluate talent. The only criticism of the 2010 draft I saw was why he moved up to take DThomas. It was inexplicable. Billicheat traditionally goes through a lot of picks, and I'd guess he takes a lot of input into talent evaluation. Bowlen was right about one thing for sure when he hired McDaniels. It's a job for a young guy who can work 18 hours a day, eleven months a year. McDaniels may mature.

HILife
11-24-2010, 11:45 AM
This one needs some explanation.

seriously, that didn't make any sense. Belichick is the supreme ruler in those parts.

FantomForce
11-24-2010, 11:46 AM
Pats winning ways? "they were tapping into the consistently successful methods of the New England Patriots.

Acceptance of the Patriot Way doesn't come easy around these parts, especially when success doesn't come quickly. I think McDaniels will get one more season to bring a postseason game back to Denver. (A playoff game, by itself, doesn't necessarily rock Bowlen's boat. He wants his fans and team revenues to benefit from all that comes with a "home" playoff game.)"

WTF Mangaini to the Jets -FAIL!
Romeo to the Browns-FAIL!
Weis to Notre Dame- FAIL!

Do you Crazy Ba$tards see a pattern here???

jhns
11-24-2010, 12:03 PM
This one needs some explanation.

Wait, you think they have always let Bill run everything? That is funny. Personnel guys that are just yes men do not continually win awards for being the best GM... He may have gotten all the power recently and they haven't been nearly as good in that time. Are you saying we are trying to go with their current, lesser model? The guys making the decisions should probably pay more attention if that is the case.

jhns
11-24-2010, 12:06 PM
you can't expect him to explain anything....alll he knows how to do is bash the current regime but offers to other kind of plan or thoughts...

Maybe I should follow your example and just cry about other posters as I don't say a thing about football.

Why would anyone care what you say anyways? You only show up after losses troll.

TonyR
11-24-2010, 12:06 PM
Wait, you think they have always let Bill run everything?

If not "always" then for the last 9-10 years, yes. Who do you think was running the show? I think he answers to Robert Kraft and nobody else. Sure, Scott Pioli had a voice but I doubt Belichick answered directly to him.

TonyR
11-24-2010, 12:10 PM
Here ya go, jhns. I'm right, you're wrong.

Pioli is still helping his boss get places, and Belichick the New England Patriots' wiz regarded as the NFL's best coach has received quite the return from the C-notes.

The eager "kid" he hired as a gofer has grown up to become one of the league's hottest executives.

When the Patriots head into this weekend's NFL draft looking to stockpile more of the talent that has allowed them to forge a new-age dynasty with three Super Bowl victories in the last four seasons, Pioli, 40, will be the proverbial man behind the curtain.

Belichick has final authority over the draft but is always quick to credit Pioli, the team's vice president of personnel and the coach's first hire when he took over the team's football operations in 2000, for his crucial role in the team's success. Without the right players to plug into the system a model that heavily weighs a team-first, football-passionate mentality the coaching efforts might backfire.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/2005draft/2005-04-21-patriots-draft_x.htm

HILife
11-24-2010, 12:14 PM
Wait, you think they have always let Bill run everything? That is funny. He may have gotten power recently and they haven't been nearly as good in that time. Are you saying we are trying to go with their current, lesser model? The guys making the decisions should probably pay more attention if that is the case.

Bill Belichick was named New England Patriots head coach in 2000, succeeding Pete Carroll. Owner Robert Kraft also gave Belichick most authority over football operations, effectively making him the team's general manager as well. He is one of three current NFL coaches with the title or powers of general manager, the others being the Philadelphia Eagles' Andy Reid and the Washington Redskins' Mike Shanahan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Belichick

HILife
11-24-2010, 12:18 PM
Here ya go, jhns. I'm right, you're wrong.

Pioli is still helping his boss get places, and Belichick the New England Patriots' wiz regarded as the NFL's best coach has received quite the return from the C-notes.

The eager "kid" he hired as a gofer has grown up to become one of the league's hottest executives.

When the Patriots head into this weekend's NFL draft looking to stockpile more of the talent that has allowed them to forge a new-age dynasty with three Super Bowl victories in the last four seasons, Pioli, 40, will be the proverbial man behind the curtain.

Belichick has final authority over the draft but is always quick to credit Pioli, the team's vice president of personnel and the coach's first hire when he took over the team's football operations in 2000, for his crucial role in the team's success. Without the right players to plug into the system a model that heavily weighs a team-first, football-passionate mentality the coaching efforts might backfire.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/2005draft/2005-04-21-patriots-draft_x.htm

Nice to see facts backed up by documentation, rather then comments backed up by idiocy.

Gort
11-24-2010, 12:21 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Belichick

i didn't know he worked for the Broncos in 1978.

Mogulseeker
11-24-2010, 12:23 PM
i didn't know he worked for the Broncos in 1978.

Heh... if only we had to foresight to hold on to him haha.

jhns
11-24-2010, 12:25 PM
Fine, he was under Belicheck in power. It really doesn't change what I am saying and Tonys article shows it. He got to make personel decisions. This just shows that Belicheck is way smarter than Josh. He knew he couldn't do it alone and got the right guys. The New England way isn't to get rid of all your personnel guys and only keep a cap guru around... It doesn't matter who answers to who, Pioli made personnel decisions. McDaniels makes them here, alone. Our only GM has never handled personnel. He was a co-GM with us and in Atlanta because he only handled the cap. It is the complete opposite of what Belicheck did.

Popps
11-24-2010, 12:33 PM
Here ya go, jhns. I'm right, you're wrong.

Pioli is still helping his boss get places, and Belichick the New England Patriots' wiz regarded as the NFL's best coach has received quite the return from the C-notes.

The eager "kid" he hired as a gofer has grown up to become one of the league's hottest executives.

When the Patriots head into this weekend's NFL draft looking to stockpile more of the talent that has allowed them to forge a new-age dynasty with three Super Bowl victories in the last four seasons, Pioli, 40, will be the proverbial man behind the curtain.

Belichick has final authority over the draft but is always quick to credit Pioli, the team's vice president of personnel and the coach's first hire when he took over the team's football operations in 2000, for his crucial role in the team's success. Without the right players to plug into the system a model that heavily weighs a team-first, football-passionate mentality the coaching efforts might backfire.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/2005draft/2005-04-21-patriots-draft_x.htm

I think "pwned" is what the kids call that.

jhns
11-24-2010, 12:39 PM
I think "pwned" is what the kids call that.

Not really as it doesn't take away from any point I made. A single detail was off. Congrats on proving that wrong while skipping over any real points made!

So what you guys are claiming is McDaniels brought in an established personnel guy that he knew was good and let him make personnel decisions? Maybe we are doing it the Patriot way...

Let's also just skip that point about high character players. Bilicheck only brings in hard working, team first guys. The obvious example that can't be argued is Randy Moss. That guy plays his heart out for his team no matter what! He wasn't on the market for quitting on his previous team or anything...

Yup, this is all debunked because Belicheck gave Pioli personnel powers instead of the owner...

HILife
11-24-2010, 12:46 PM
i didn't know he worked for the Broncos in 1978.

it was news to me too.

Drek
11-24-2010, 12:53 PM
If not "always" then for the last 9-10 years, yes. Who do you think was running the show? I think he answers to Robert Kraft and nobody else. Sure, Scott Pioli had a voice but I doubt Belichick answered directly to him.
Since day one in New England Belichick was the top football authority. He was literally Scott Pioli's boss.

And FYI, saying that the Belichick tree doesn't work is pretty wrong. There hasn't been much HC success but the level of front office success is impressive. three current NFL GMs got their start with Belichick and have found significant success. Ozzie Newsome in Baltimore, Thomas Dimitroff in Atlanta, and Mike Tannenbaum in New York (jets).

rugbythug
11-24-2010, 12:54 PM
Not really as it doesn't take away from any point I made. A single detail was off. Congrats on proving that wrong while skipping over any real points made!

So what you guys are claiming is McDaniels brought in an established personnel guy that he knew was good and let him make personnel decisions? Maybe we are doing it the Patriot way...

Let's also just skip that point about high character players. Bilicheck only brings in hard working, team first guys. The obvious example that can't be argued is Randy Moss. That guy plays his heart out for his team no matter what! He wasn't on the market for quitting on his previous team or anything...

So who was the established personal guy he brought in again.

HILife
11-24-2010, 12:55 PM
Not really as it doesn't take away from any point I made. A single detail was off. Congrats on proving that wrong while skipping over any real points made!

So what you guys are claiming is McDaniels brought in an established personnel guy that he knew was good and let him make personnel decisions? Maybe we are doing it the Patriot way...

I got a friend like you, will not admit defeat no matter how many facts you through at him.

Originally Posted by jhns
They...had a GM that had more power than their coach...

This one needs some explanation.

Wait, you think they have always let Bill run everything?


If not "always" then for the last 9-10 years, yes. Who do you think was running the show? I think he answers to Robert Kraft and nobody else. Sure, Scott Pioli had a voice but I doubt Belichick answered directly to him.

Here ya go, jhns. I'm right, you're wrong.

Pioli is still helping his boss get places, and Belichick the New England Patriots' wiz regarded as the NFL's best coach has received quite the return from the C-notes.

The eager "kid" he hired as a gofer has grown up to become one of the league's hottest executives.

When the Patriots head into this weekend's NFL draft looking to stockpile more of the talent that has allowed them to forge a new-age dynasty with three Super Bowl victories in the last four seasons, Pioli, 40, will be the proverbial man behind the curtain.

Belichick has final authority over the draft but is always quick to credit Pioli, the team's vice president of personnel and the coach's first hire when he took over the team's football operations in 2000, for his crucial role in the team's success. Without the right players to plug into the system a model that heavily weighs a team-first, football-passionate mentality the coaching efforts might backfire.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/2005draft/2005-04-21-patriots-draft_x.htm

I mean it's right there in this thread. Just read it.

jhns
11-24-2010, 01:01 PM
I got a friend like you, will not admit defeat no matter how many facts you through at him.


I mean it's right there in this thread. Just read it.

No, I admit I was wrong about that. Now try countering the real points. For one, that wasn't even close to all I said in the original post that Tony quoted. It was a single point that was wrong and doesn't disprove the entire concept.

You guys would not pass a debate class. Just becuase a single point is wrong does not make the entire argument wrong. You guys know this. It is why no one is addressing the real argument.

bendog
11-24-2010, 01:07 PM
Not wanting to hijack the thread and having no desire to get into the shanny/mcdaniels bull**** again, I think what billicheat has really succeeded in doing is relying on his personnel department so he doesn't totally burn out, and Shanny was totallay burnt out. SF did the model of moving Walsh up into the front office, and he was able to stay effective until he really didn't want to work. Shanny understood cap managment, and in the end ran some nice drafts, but he could never leave anything without micromanaging it. I really dislike Billicheat and the stinking pats, and I loved how shanny owned them, but he's incredibly successful in a profession that grinds down most people

HILife
11-24-2010, 01:10 PM
No, I admit I was wrong about that. Now try countering the real points. For one, that wasn't even close to all I said in the original post that Tony quoted. It was a single point that was wrong and doesn't disprove the entire concept.

You guys would not pass a debate class. Just becuase a single point is wrong does not make the entire argument wrong. You guys know this. It is why no one is addressing the real argument.

No, you are missing the point. The only thing he was interested in was that one point you brought up. He didn't want to have a discussion about the rest, but you somehow decided that if someone questions one point, they question all of it.

jhns
11-24-2010, 01:15 PM
No, you are missing the point. The only thing he was interested in was that one point you brought up. He didn't want to have a discussion about the rest, but you somehow decided that if someone questions one point, they question all of it.

Then what exactly are you going on about? I admitted that I was wrong about that point right after he posted the article....

Popps
11-24-2010, 01:16 PM
Haha! Jhizz owned yet again.

I can't believe you guys waste your time with her.

jhns
11-24-2010, 01:21 PM
Haha! Jhizz owned yet again.

I can't believe you guys waste your time with her.

LOL

It is like being back in 3rd grade.

HILife
11-24-2010, 01:27 PM
Then what exactly are you going on about? I admitted that I was wrong about that point right after he posted the article....

No, I admit I was wrong about that. Now try countering the real points. For one, that wasn't even close to all I said in the original post that Tony quoted. It was a single point that was wrong and doesn't disprove the entire concept.

You guys would not pass a debate class. Just becuase a single point is wrong does not make the entire argument wrong. You guys know this. It is why no one is addressing the real argument.

No, you are missing the point. The only thing he was interested in was that one point you brought up. He didn't want to have a discussion about the rest, but you somehow decided that if someone questions one point, they question all of it.

.

HILife
11-24-2010, 01:30 PM
Haha! Jhizz owned yet again.

I can't believe you guys waste your time with her.

I don't know. Maybe because he reminds me of my friend, so I just want to hear him say "Your right, I'm wrong."

Wait, he's a she? My bad, I didn't mean to insult her by calling her a he.

jhns
11-24-2010, 01:37 PM
.

I was talking about our entire conversation buddy. What is all the multiple quoted post thing about? You say it is about me not admitting I was wrong about that point even though I did. You now claim I can't admit I am wrong because I said it doesn't change my real points? That is an interesting take. Maybe it is that I can't admit I am wrong because Tony doesn't want to argue my real point. In that case, who cares. I wasn't trying to force him.

You are completely lost. You need to work on your trolling.

HILife
11-24-2010, 01:39 PM
I was talking about our entire conversation buddy. What is all the multiple quoted post thing about? You say it is about me not admitting I was wrong about that point even though I did. You now claim I can't admit I am wrong because I said it doesn't change my real points? That is an interesting take. Maybe it is that I can't admit I am wrong because Tony doesn't want to argue my real point. In that case, who cares. I wasn't trying to force him.

You are completely lost. You need to work on your trolling.

..............You're right, I'm wrong.

jhns
11-24-2010, 01:43 PM
..............You're right, I'm wrong.

Duh...

broncocalijohn
11-24-2010, 02:02 PM
We're getting worse. If we have a top 5 pick, it's time to cut our losses and move on. But for crying out loud, bring in someone who wants the highly questionable young talent we have. It's bad enough we got a guy who rid of our pro bowl talent, but a new coach should at least be very open to developing guys like Thomas and Tebow.

The biggest idiot (well, one of them) is back! You still crying over Cutler? Still hold onto that feeling of fail. Seems we covered BM's position pretty well with much money (and less headaches) left over. McD has made mistakes but those are the least of the Broncos worries.

steeledude
11-24-2010, 02:07 PM
The biggest idiot (well, one of them) is back! You still crying over Cutler? Still hold onto that feeling of fail. Seems we covered BM's position pretty well with much money (and less headaches) left over. McD has made mistakes but those are the least of the Broncos worries.

Back? I've been posting for awhile now. Too bad you've been avoiding me. Aside from Cutler, I'm thinking of Marshall. Though our passing game has been good, it would only be better with him and Royal and Loyd out there. Thomas is no replacement at this point.

And Hillis, Scheffler, and all the rest too might help us win a few more games. Just saying.

Instead of drafting D for two years we've drafted replacements for the guys McD shipped out.

Atwater His Ass
11-24-2010, 02:14 PM
I like the guy who references wikipedia as a credible source.

jhns
11-24-2010, 02:19 PM
Back? I've been posting for awhile now. Too bad you've been avoiding me. Aside from Cutler, I'm thinking of Marshall. Though our passing game has been good, it would only be better with him and Royal and Loyd out there. Thomas is no replacement at this point.

And Hillis, Scheffler, and all the rest too might help us win a few more games. Just saying.

Instead of drafting D for two years we've drafted replacements for the guys McD shipped out.

I find it funny that people say we have replaced Marshall. The guy putting in the work isn't a replacement. We had him before getting rid of Marshall. It would be the two of them here if we didn't get rid of Marshall.

It is also funny when people start arguing that his getting rid of talent has been good. Yeah, the results sure prove that point!

HILife
11-24-2010, 02:20 PM
Back? I've been posting for awhile now. Too bad you've been avoiding me. Aside from Cutler, I'm thinking of Marshall. Though our passing game has been good, it would only be better with him and Royal and Loyd out there. Thomas is no replacement at this point.

And Hillis, Scheffler, and all the rest too might help us win a few more games. Just saying.

Instead of drafting D for two years we've drafted replacements for the guys McD shipped out.

I don't miss Cutler, Marshall or Scheffler. I do miss Hillis, but oh well.

HILife
11-24-2010, 02:21 PM
I like the guy who references wikipedia as a credible source.

hahaha, I know, but it's been right to me more then wrong.

Mogulseeker
11-24-2010, 02:26 PM
I feel disheartened that jhns has sabotaged my thread. Or should I be honored?

jhns
11-24-2010, 02:29 PM
I feel disheartened that jhns has sabotaged my thread. Or should I be honored?

I feel I deserve compensation.

HILife
11-24-2010, 02:30 PM
I feel disheartened that jhns has sabotaged my thread. Or should I be honored?

What was your thread about again? I really don't feel like going to the first page.

bendog
11-24-2010, 02:34 PM
What was your thread about again? I really don't feel like going to the first page.

Firing McDaniels now, or in the offseason, would likely cause the team to become even worse. That's what I got out of it. I agree too, assuming McDaniels gets his head out of his ass with giving up draft position and concentrates on maximinzing his picks and targeting defense.

rugbythug
11-24-2010, 02:44 PM
I was talking about our entire conversation buddy. What is all the multiple quoted post thing about? You say it is about me not admitting I was wrong about that point even though I did. You now claim I can't admit I am wrong because I said it doesn't change my real points? That is an interesting take. Maybe it is that I can't admit I am wrong because Tony doesn't want to argue my real point. In that case, who cares. I wasn't trying to force him.

You are completely lost. You need to work on your trolling.

So what is your broader point.

HILife
11-24-2010, 04:02 PM
Firing McDaniels now, or in the offseason, would likely cause the team to become even worse. That's what I got out of it. I agree too, assuming McDaniels gets his head out of his ass with giving up draft position and concentrates on maximinzing his picks and targeting defense.

Oh, yea yea yea, uuuhhh FIRE MCDANIELS!!!

vancejohnson82
11-24-2010, 04:36 PM
Back? I've been posting for awhile now. Too bad you've been avoiding me. Aside from Cutler, I'm thinking of Marshall. Though our passing game has been good, it would only be better with him and Royal and Loyd out there. Thomas is no replacement at this point.

And Hillis, Scheffler, and all the rest too might help us win a few more games. Just saying.

Instead of drafting D for two years we've drafted replacements for the guys McD shipped out.

where have we done this?

Qb - we got Orton and picked Tebow as a QB of the future
WR - we put LLoyd in off practice squad and drafted Thomas but he wasnt neccessarily replacing Marshall
TE- Scheffler was shipped out but we didnt fill a recieving TE position at all

we've picked up Ayers, Cox and McBath in the past few years to cover D needs...

Jetmeck
11-24-2010, 05:07 PM
How about Thomas for Brandon Marshall as an example. Valid argument that we are no further along offensively than before this idiot. Had he kept those pieces and added quality and I said QUALITY DL we wouldnt be having this conversation. Thomas and Tebow could have been a Nagata and whomever............

WolfpackGuy
11-24-2010, 05:11 PM
Friends don't let friends hire Patriots assistants.

I don't know know why they went for a Pats guy anyway as the Broncos have pretty much owned them over the years.

Bronkota
11-24-2010, 06:00 PM
Mangini brought in Hillis...so he's going to the hall of fame

Holmgren brought in Hillis...so he's going to the hall of fame.

Fixed it for you.