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View Full Version : Why Tim Tebow is the Answer, But Not Until 2011


Drek
11-24-2010, 08:19 AM
The single biggest issue I see with the Broncos right now is that the team does not play with a level of intensity and confidence needed to consistently win in the NFL. This team is not mentally disciplined and folds at the first sign of adversity.

This is a problem with leadership, namely at the QB position. I see QB leadership as a two part quality in which both parts are needed for a team to maximize its production. First is leadership in the locker room. Having the public support of your teammates and helping pick them up over the long grind of an NFL season. Second is leadership on the field, which is almost entirely driven by a QB's quality of play. More particularly, how a QB plays on 3rd downs as well as close and late situations.

Elway provided both of these aspects of leadership and that is why despite some generally mediocre career numbers and a questionable supporting cast he found a way to win. The entire team had complete faith in any given game that Elway could will a miracle to happen and steal a victory. Over the course of the season he kept them focused and motivated towards larger goals.

Since Elway's retirement the Broncos have been in a state of flux at the QB position. Griese and Cutler for example did not pass the first test of setting and maintianing the right locker room tempo from day one. Orton fails the second test, being unable to make critical plays in big games based entirely around his own talent, in other words picking the team up and willing them to victory within a single game.

The closest we've come post-Elway to finding a QB who leads the team in both of those aspects was with Plummer, who unfortunately just wasn't very good at the technical requirements of being a QB (like passing from the pocket). Even still we saw our most successful years post-Elway with Plummer because of that leadership.

I personally believe that McDaniels recognizes these aspects of a QB as being essential to a football team and that is why he acquired Tim Tebow, someone who has been the epitome of a leader at the QB position. His fundamentals do need work though, and this is why he needs to wait until 2011 before he sees significant live action.

Rushing Tim Tebow will force him to rely on old bad habits that we're trying to break from a fundamentals standpoint. If you do that then you will essentially turn Tim Tebow into a rich man's Jake Plummer. Bigger, more athletic, and with a stronger arm but ultimately he will be deficient in the basic fundamentals of playing quarterback. By letting him sit a year and develop you can fix many of his fundamental issues and ease the transition, putting him on a career path much more similar to another gifted athlete at the QB position, Steve Young. Young was horrible in Tampa Bay but once given time to watch from the sidelines and learn he blossomed into a Hall of Fame worthy QB.

Another excellent example of this is Michael Vick. This year he has taken the league by storm and he largely attributes it to finally having the time and desire to fully digest an NFL offense. This is the curse of athletically gifted QBs. Their mental understanding of the game does not progress as quickly as traditional QBs due to the unique tool they can solve most collegiate challenges with (running the ball). This doesn't mean they can't learn it, just that some additional growth needs to be accounted for in their preparation for starting at the NFL level.

Unlike Plummer and Young we can let Tebow sit and learn from day one. And unlike Vick Tebow has a strong work ethic and desire to do so already in place. Therefore it is essential that he is given the additional prep time needed for athletically gifted QBs before he is called on to start.

From a more holistic view for the entire organization that also works out to our advantage because it will maximize Orton's value and let us shop him in a market with high QB demand. Minnesota, Carolina, Arizona, Oakland, and Tennessee at a minimum will be looking for new QB options, with San Francisco, Miami, and potentially a few others as interested buyers.

Giving Orton the rest of the year and then making the change to Tebow in the off-season also results in a cleaner "turning the page" style transition where everyone knows from the first day they report that Tebow is the new leader to get behind, dispelling any sentiments of veteran loyalty and giving Tebow an unbiased shot to win the hearts and minds of his teammates.

At least that is my personal take on the best way to handle our transition from Orton to Tebow. Making it now will only serve to hinder Tebow's growth, our shot at a clean and fresh attitude change within the players, and cost us value on Kyle Orton. None of which help the Denver Broncos long term.

The Joker
11-24-2010, 08:23 AM
Agree with all of this.

ColoradoDarin
11-24-2010, 08:28 AM
Cosigned

FantomForce
11-24-2010, 08:29 AM
check

rbackfactory80
11-24-2010, 08:32 AM
Great post Drek, right on the money especially about Plummer. My problem is with folding when things don't go Denver's way. The toughness is disgusting and our entire roster minus 2 players run when things don't go their way. Changing that mentality for an entire roster will be difficult.

bendog
11-24-2010, 08:34 AM
Tebow may be the next Alex Smith or he may be Ben Rapesburger only without the sociopath personality. Nobody can have the slightest idea which, but we all have opinions. Unless there's an absolute miracle, there will not be training camps or preseason in 2011, and the probablity is that at best it'll be a shortened season but at least we won't have those horrible replacement player games. Orton's contract was extended so Tebow doesn't get thrown to the wolves in a strike year where the players are not in shape and the players haven't been studying and getting reps.

The Moops
11-24-2010, 08:41 AM
You make a lot of great points. But I think if McDaniels wants to hold onto his job until next year, he will start playing Tebow.

No owner is going to fire a coach who is playing his rookie #1 QB. Playing Tebow will save McDaniels job.

Plus . . . even though Orton is having a great season the wins aren't coming. That's a leadership issue. Yes, the defense sucks. But in the Broncos 2 blowout losses to divisional rivals they scored only 14 points in both. That is not going to win you games in the NFL. There is something missing offensively from a leadership standpoint.

Tebow has gobs of leadership . . . the team and fans are energized every time he takes the field. And in his limited role he has already produced 4 TDS.

The season is lost. Playing Tebow will give him confidence going into next season. Otherwise, Tebow will basically be a rookie again in 2011.

DarkHorse30
11-24-2010, 08:50 AM
I agree that it's good to slowly turn the reins over to Tebow....but I can't blame Orton - he's done everything he has been asked to do. I blame McDaniels for mediocre playcalling and not setting up his O-attack very well. I think he overthinks himself.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-24-2010, 08:54 AM
I agree that it's good to slowly turn the reins over to Tebow....but I can't blame Orton - he's done everything he has been asked to do. I blame McDaniels for mediocre playcalling and not setting up his O-attack very well. I think he overthinks himself.

I would tend to agree with this.

Orton's done everything we've asked. He's gotten zero support from his defense or the rest of his team, and I just don't see how starting Tebow -- this year or next -- is an improvement on what we have currently under center.

Just my opinion.

Rohirrim
11-24-2010, 09:04 AM
Bradley Van Tebow. ;D

SonOfLe-loLang
11-24-2010, 09:07 AM
i agree with the gist of this, but one, can we get proof that tebows mechanics will hurt him before we assume they do? Corners werent exactly jumping routes in the preseason and, two, playing him for a game this season to give him experience will not hinder his development. And if he plays well in it, it'll show the organization he may actually have what it takes. If he plays poorly, Tebow seems mentally strong enough not to let it get to him, it'll probably only make him work harder.

This has nothing to do with Orton. This has everything to do with us investing a number one in Tebow. Lets see if he's got what it takes.

SonOfLe-loLang
11-24-2010, 09:08 AM
Bradley Van Tebow. ;D

I still dont get this comparison other than they both run on occasion

Popps
11-24-2010, 09:08 AM
As usual, great stuff, Drek. I'm not in 100% agreement, but very interesting read.

Having two capable QBs is a great place to be.

PRBronco
11-24-2010, 09:11 AM
All I want for Christmas is Drek.

(no homo)

Rashomon
11-24-2010, 09:12 AM
No owner is going to fire a coach who is playing his rookie #1 QB. Playing Tebow will save McDaniels job.



McDaniels shouldn't play Tebow unless he thinks he can be successful. If Tebow comes in and performs poorly, below the levels of other rookies taken after him like McCoy and Clausen, it just might reinforce to Bowlen that McDaniels really doesn't know what he is doing, and he should cut his losses with his coach.

uplink
11-24-2010, 09:12 AM
Agree, with this as a major, if not the most important, problem with the broncos that Tebow could be the solution for. Yes, ever since Elway left the team folds as soon as any adversity pops up. Happened with Shanny and McD. As soon as that fake punt was converted the broncos just packed it in. I'd keep McD another year and see if Tebow can light a fire under the teams backside.

elsid13
11-24-2010, 09:12 AM
As usual, great stuff, Drek. I'm not in 100% agreement, but very interesting read.

Having two capable QBs is a great place to be.

No it's not, it just lead to QB controversy, which were this is headed

SonOfLe-loLang
11-24-2010, 09:14 AM
Agree, with this as a major, if not the most important, problem with the broncos that Tebow could be the solution for. Yes, ever since Elway left the team folds as soon as any adversity pops up. Happened with Shanny and McD. As soon as that fake punt was converted the broncos just packed it in. I'd keep McD another year and see if Tebow can light a fire under the teams backside.

This is revisionist history. Its really only a recent thing, in the plummer years i felt we were always in the game if it was close. In the past two years, I feel that we have very little shot if playing from behind

uplink
11-24-2010, 09:16 AM
This is revisionist history. Its really only a recent thing, in the plummer years i felt we were always in the game if it was close. In the past two years, I feel that we have very little shot if playing from behind

It wasn't as bad with Plummer. gotten worse each year.

Hogan11
11-24-2010, 09:19 AM
Tebow will be a stop gap till Aaron Murray is ready to come in and solidify the position in 2014 ;D

PRBronco
11-24-2010, 09:20 AM
This is revisionist history. Its really only a recent thing, in the plummer years i felt we were always in the game if it was close. In the past two years, I feel that we have very little shot if playing from behind

Plummer was exciting; no matter how much we were losing, I always had a feeling he could bring us back. Sometimes he did, sometimes he threw a disgusting pick. Always believed though. Hard to complain about Orton, but I just don't have that feeling with him.

TheChamp24
11-24-2010, 09:25 AM
The thing that I want to see though is Tebow to come in and play during some of these blowouts. What is there to lose in doing so?

bendog
11-24-2010, 09:25 AM
I don't think there's any qb controversey. Tebow's gonna get a shot in 2012 after a full preseason and camp. There MIGhT be some controversey if somehow the labor situation gets resolved by spring, but thus far the NFLPA doesn't really understand what the owners are demanding, and that's because the owners themselves are split between the higher revenue and lower revenue teams. But even if there's a full 2011 season, the only controversey would be more like the Plummer/Lambchop thing. The oline might not have liked it, but it was no surprise that Shanahan planned to play Lambchop sooner or later.

And Orton's got no complaint. The team made him a pretty wealthy person, and he'll find a team to move onto.

Hogan11
11-24-2010, 09:26 AM
The thing that I want to see though is Tebow to come in and play during some of these blowouts. What is there to lose in doing so?

Only mystique

Beantown Bronco
11-24-2010, 09:28 AM
This is revisionist history. Its really only a recent thing, in the plummer years i felt we were always in the game if it was close. In the past two years, I feel that we have very little shot if playing from behind

This year has sucked for comeback victories for sure, but last year they technically had 3 which is literally above average for all but the most elite QBs to ever play the game.

Broncosfreak_56
11-24-2010, 09:31 AM
Just two questions that I have surrounding the QB situation.

1. What happens to Kyle's trade value if he gets benched? We want the most possible out of him in the offseason if we are in fact going with Tebow starting next year.

2. What happens to Tim if the guy who hand-picked him, McDaniels, gets fired? For that reason alone I want Josh to have 1 more year regardless of what happens the rest of the season. Even though right now I am pretty disillusioned with the team right now, I am willing to give him ONE more offseason to fix the defense and use his quarterback. We repeat this years performance however, I want him gone.

Those are just a couple questions that have been floating around in my head.


EDIT: Also, great post/topic OP.

TailgateNut
11-24-2010, 09:32 AM
You make a lot of great points. But I think if McDaniels wants to hold onto his job until next year, he will start playing Tebow.

No owner is going to fire a coach who is playing his rookie #1 QB. Playing Tebow will save McDaniels job.

Plus . . . even though Orton is having a great season the wins aren't coming. That's a leadership issue. Yes, the defense sucks. But in the Broncos 2 blowout losses to divisional rivals they scored only 14 points in both. That is not going to win you games in the NFL. There is something missing offensively from a leadership standpoint.

Tebow has gobs of leadership . . . the team and fans are energized every time he takes the field. And in his limited role he has already produced 4 TDS.

The season is lost. Playing Tebow will give him confidence going into next season. Otherwise, Tebow will basically be a rookie again in 2011.



Hilarious!

DBroncos4life
11-24-2010, 09:32 AM
I don't think that Orton is the problem at all but I would like to see Tebow in the game when we are getting blown out. As someone else pointed out Reeves did the same thing with Vick during his rookie year. I see no reason why we can't bring him in keep the reads and plays simple. He needs to learn game speed sooner or later.

Hogan11
11-24-2010, 09:33 AM
Hilarious!

I know, that should read "His fans are energized every time he takes the field."

TonyR
11-24-2010, 09:34 AM
Great post, Drek, agree with much of it. My biggest concern, assuming there's a season in 2011, is that if you trade Orton this offseason and then we find out that Tebow just isn't an NFL QB then we're in quite a pickle next year. And I really hope I'm wrong but I'm far from convinced that Tebow will ever be an NFL QB. I'm rooting for him though.

TailgateNut
11-24-2010, 09:36 AM
I know, that should read "His fans are energized every time he takes the field."


They all need to go to Football 101. ****ing assholes can't STFU when their ANGEL steps on the field, and then when he "Flaps his arm to signal for them to STFU, they get even more excited because they think he's going to fly (I guess).;)

CEH
11-24-2010, 09:39 AM
Everyone is ignoring the simple financial aspect of the situation

We owe Orton at least $5.5 MM for 2011 if we cut or trade him
Orton will make $9MM in 2011 to be the starting QB

Josh does not extend Orton with so much guarentee money for '11 if they thought Tebow was ready

IMO, We are not trading Orton in 2011. Orton is the starting QB in 2011

SonOfLe-loLang
11-24-2010, 09:44 AM
They all need to go to Football 101. ****ing a-holes can't STFU when their ANGEL steps on the field, and then when he "Flaps his arm to signal for them to STFU, they get even more excited because they think he's going to fly (I guess).;)

I have no man love for Tebow, but i get excited when he comes on the field. I dont know why the original statement was so laughable.

NFLBRONCO
11-24-2010, 09:45 AM
The single biggest issue I see with the Broncos right now is that the team does not play with a level of intensity and confidence needed to consistently win in the NFL. This team is not mentally disciplined and folds at the first sign of adversity.

This is a problem with leadership, namely at the QB position. I see QB leadership as a two part quality in which both parts are needed for a team to maximize its production. First is leadership in the locker room. Having the public support of your teammates and helping pick them up over the long grind of an NFL season. Second is leadership on the field, which is almost entirely driven by a QB's quality of play. More particularly, how a QB plays on 3rd downs as well as close and late situations.

Elway provided both of these aspects of leadership and that is why despite some generally mediocre career numbers and a questionable supporting cast he found a way to win. The entire team had complete faith in any given game that Elway could will a miracle to happen and steal a victory. Over the course of the season he kept them focused and motivated towards larger goals.

Since Elway's retirement the Broncos have been in a state of flux at the QB position. Griese and Cutler for example did not pass the first test of setting and maintianing the right locker room tempo from day one. Orton fails the second test, being unable to make critical plays in big games based entirely around his own talent, in other words picking the team up and willing them to victory within a single game.

The closest we've come post-Elway to finding a QB who leads the team in both of those aspects was with Plummer, who unfortunately just wasn't very good at the technical requirements of being a QB (like passing from the pocket). Even still we saw our most successful years post-Elway with Plummer because of that leadership.

I personally believe that McDaniels recognizes these aspects of a QB as being essential to a football team and that is why he acquired Tim Tebow, someone who has been the epitome of a leader at the QB position. His fundamentals do need work though, and this is why he needs to wait until 2011 before he sees significant live action.

Rushing Tim Tebow will force him to rely on old bad habits that we're trying to break from a fundamentals standpoint. If you do that then you will essentially turn Tim Tebow into a rich man's Jake Plummer. Bigger, more athletic, and with a stronger arm but ultimately he will be deficient in the basic fundamentals of playing quarterback. By letting him sit a year and develop you can fix many of his fundamental issues and ease the transition, putting him on a career path much more similar to another gifted athlete at the QB position, Steve Young. Young was horrible in Tampa Bay but once given time to watch from the sidelines and learn he blossomed into a Hall of Fame worthy QB.

Another excellent example of this is Michael Vick. This year he has taken the league by storm and he largely attributes it to finally having the time and desire to fully digest an NFL offense. This is the curse of athletically gifted QBs. Their mental understanding of the game does not progress as quickly as traditional QBs due to the unique tool they can solve most collegiate challenges with (running the ball). This doesn't mean they can't learn it, just that some additional growth needs to be accounted for in their preparation for starting at the NFL level.

Unlike Plummer and Young we can let Tebow sit and learn from day one. And unlike Vick Tebow has a strong work ethic and desire to do so already in place. Therefore it is essential that he is given the additional prep time needed for athletically gifted QBs before he is called on to start.

From a more holistic view for the entire organization that also works out to our advantage because it will maximize Orton's value and let us shop him in a market with high QB demand. Minnesota, Carolina, Arizona, Oakland, and Tennessee at a minimum will be looking for new QB options, with San Francisco, Miami, and potentially a few others as interested buyers.

Giving Orton the rest of the year and then making the change to Tebow in the off-season also results in a cleaner "turning the page" style transition where everyone knows from the first day they report that Tebow is the new leader to get behind, dispelling any sentiments of veteran loyalty and giving Tebow an unbiased shot to win the hearts and minds of his teammates.

At least that is my personal take on the best way to handle our transition from Orton to Tebow. Making it now will only serve to hinder Tebow's growth, our shot at a clean and fresh attitude change within the players, and cost us value on Kyle Orton. None of which help the Denver Broncos long term.

I was one who wanted reps for Tebow this year but, damn Drek this post is a thing of beauty and you made excellent points against it. Solid work

Mogulseeker
11-24-2010, 09:51 AM
The single biggest issue I see with the Broncos right now is that the team does not play with a level of intensity and confidence needed to consistently win in the NFL. This team is not mentally disciplined and folds at the first sign of adversity.

This is a problem with leadership, namely at the QB position. I see QB leadership as a two part quality in which both parts are needed for a team to maximize its production. First is leadership in the locker room. Having the public support of your teammates and helping pick them up over the long grind of an NFL season. Second is leadership on the field, which is almost entirely driven by a QB's quality of play. More particularly, how a QB plays on 3rd downs as well as close and late situations.

Elway provided both of these aspects of leadership and that is why despite some generally mediocre career numbers and a questionable supporting cast he found a way to win. The entire team had complete faith in any given game that Elway could will a miracle to happen and steal a victory. Over the course of the season he kept them focused and motivated towards larger goals.

Since Elway's retirement the Broncos have been in a state of flux at the QB position. Griese and Cutler for example did not pass the first test of setting and maintianing the right locker room tempo from day one. Orton fails the second test, being unable to make critical plays in big games based entirely around his own talent, in other words picking the team up and willing them to victory within a single game.

The closest we've come post-Elway to finding a QB who leads the team in both of those aspects was with Plummer, who unfortunately just wasn't very good at the technical requirements of being a QB (like passing from the pocket). Even still we saw our most successful years post-Elway with Plummer because of that leadership.

I personally believe that McDaniels recognizes these aspects of a QB as being essential to a football team and that is why he acquired Tim Tebow, someone who has been the epitome of a leader at the QB position. His fundamentals do need work though, and this is why he needs to wait until 2011 before he sees significant live action.

Rushing Tim Tebow will force him to rely on old bad habits that we're trying to break from a fundamentals standpoint. If you do that then you will essentially turn Tim Tebow into a rich man's Jake Plummer. Bigger, more athletic, and with a stronger arm but ultimately he will be deficient in the basic fundamentals of playing quarterback. By letting him sit a year and develop you can fix many of his fundamental issues and ease the transition, putting him on a career path much more similar to another gifted athlete at the QB position, Steve Young. Young was horrible in Tampa Bay but once given time to watch from the sidelines and learn he blossomed into a Hall of Fame worthy QB.

Another excellent example of this is Michael Vick. This year he has taken the league by storm and he largely attributes it to finally having the time and desire to fully digest an NFL offense. This is the curse of athletically gifted QBs. Their mental understanding of the game does not progress as quickly as traditional QBs due to the unique tool they can solve most collegiate challenges with (running the ball). This doesn't mean they can't learn it, just that some additional growth needs to be accounted for in their preparation for starting at the NFL level.

Unlike Plummer and Young we can let Tebow sit and learn from day one. And unlike Vick Tebow has a strong work ethic and desire to do so already in place. Therefore it is essential that he is given the additional prep time needed for athletically gifted QBs before he is called on to start.

From a more holistic view for the entire organization that also works out to our advantage because it will maximize Orton's value and let us shop him in a market with high QB demand. Minnesota, Carolina, Arizona, Oakland, and Tennessee at a minimum will be looking for new QB options, with San Francisco, Miami, and potentially a few others as interested buyers.

Giving Orton the rest of the year and then making the change to Tebow in the off-season also results in a cleaner "turning the page" style transition where everyone knows from the first day they report that Tebow is the new leader to get behind, dispelling any sentiments of veteran loyalty and giving Tebow an unbiased shot to win the hearts and minds of his teammates.

At least that is my personal take on the best way to handle our transition from Orton to Tebow. Making it now will only serve to hinder Tebow's growth, our shot at a clean and fresh attitude change within the players, and cost us value on Kyle Orton. None of which help the Denver Broncos long term.

1. I agree 100 percent.
2. I've compared Tebow to Steve Young several times on this forum.
3. Tebow still looks bad - even on his TD pass he had awkward mechanics. I hope he's ready next year, but 2012 seems more likely.
4. What CEH said - finances.

TailgateNut
11-24-2010, 09:57 AM
I have no man love for Tebow, but i get excited when he comes on the field. I dont know why the original statement was so laughable.


That's what's so laughable. He hasn't don't squat and looks like he's cramming for a term paper when he hands off the ball to the RB, but Tebownites act as if the Sky has just opened and it's raining gold bullion when he trots on the field.

I just haven't seen **** which makes me think he's as special as everyone wants to believe.

Drek
11-24-2010, 09:57 AM
The thing that I want to see though is Tebow to come in and play during some of these blowouts. What is there to lose in doing so?

Because that one step forward might very well cost you two steps back. What if he comes in and A) gets injured or B) resorts to his old, fundamentally poor, throwing mechanics?

Given a full season where he gets glimpses of NFL game speed but otherwise learns the offense and makes the new and improved mechanics his natural throwing motion will position him for a strong start out of the gate next year.

Also by playing him in blowouts this year we're poisoning the waters with the veterans on this team. Many still view Shanahan siding with Griese over Brister as the first step towards losing his veterans. I'd personally argue that something similar to that happened when Cutler replaced Plummer. Despite Cutler outplaying Plummer the rest of that season the veterans obviously went from thinking we had a shot at the playoffs to viewing us as "full rebuild" mode and they never rallied behind Cutler after that.

QB transitions must be handled delicately. It is best done in a full "turn the page" type of environment, either to start a new season or as a result of injury. Those are when your most successful QBs are born. Look at Carolina and their QB musical chairs. The rest of the team doesn't know who to get behind let alone expecting their QB to lead them to victory in a given week.

Great post, Drek, agree with much of it. My biggest concern, assuming there's a season in 2011, is that if you trade Orton this offseason and then we find out that Tebow just isn't an NFL QB then we're in quite a pickle next year. And I really hope I'm wrong but I'm far from convinced that Tebow will ever be an NFL QB. I'm rooting for him though.

Tebow might not become an elite QB but if not then we're just back in teh QB hunt. Orton isn't going to win anything significant without an idealized offensive and defensive setting around him. We can't expect offer that either in the next few years. So sticking with Orton doesn't get this team where everyone involved wants it to go regardless. Why keep him around as a stop gap should Tebow fail, when all we'll end up doing then is looking for another QB to replace him, just done by a different coach?



2. What happens to Tim if the guy who hand-picked him, McDaniels, gets fired? For that reason alone I want Josh to have 1 more year regardless of what happens the rest of the season. Even though right now I am pretty disillusioned with the team right now, I am willing to give him ONE more offseason to fix the defense and use his quarterback. We repeat this years performance however, I want him gone.
We get someone who is high on Tebow, simple as that.

I think Gruden is the leading candidate in that pursuit actually. Gruden is only 47, he's still very young by NFL HC standards. He's been openly positive about Tebow. His offense would play to Tebow's strengths in many ways. And I'm sure part of him would absolutely love sticking it to the Raiders and Al Davis twice a year.

To me you give McDaniels the 2011 season to show what he can do, and no more injury excuses. Sink or swim. If at that point we still aren't getting the production we want then you bring in Gruden and let him go to work. Though I still think the best way to give McDaniels a shot in 2011 is to replace Ellis with Elway as the PR mouth of the organization and give him someone like Schottenheimer as a personnel guy who can help streamline the player management and get us a quality level of assistant coaching on the staff.

DBroncos4life
11-24-2010, 10:03 AM
Because that one step forward might very well cost you two steps back. What if he comes in and A) gets injured or B) resorts to his old, fundamentally poor, throwing mechanics?

Given a full season where he gets glimpses of NFL game speed but otherwise learns the offense and makes the new and improved mechanics his natural throwing motion will position him for a strong start out of the gate next year.

Also by playing him in blowouts this year we're poisoning the waters with the veterans on this team. Many still view Shanahan siding with Griese over Brister as the first step towards losing his veterans. I'd personally argue that something similar to that happened when Cutler replaced Plummer. Despite Cutler outplaying Plummer the rest of that season the veterans obviously went from thinking we had a shot at the playoffs to viewing us as "full rebuild" mode and they never rallied behind Cutler after that.

QB transitions must be handled delicately. It is best done in a full "turn the page" type of environment, either to start a new season or as a result of injury. Those are when your most successful QBs are born. Look at Carolina and their QB musical chairs. The rest of the team doesn't know who to get behind let alone expecting their QB to lead them to victory in a given week.



Tebow might not become an elite QB but if not then we're just back in teh QB hunt. Orton isn't going to win anything significant without an idealized offensive and defensive setting around him. We can't expect offer that either in the next few years. So sticking with Orton doesn't get this team where everyone involved wants it to go regardless. Why keep him around as a stop gap should Tebow fail, when all we'll end up doing then is looking for another QB to replace him, just done by a different coach?


We get someone who is high on Tebow, simple as that.

I think Gruden is the leading candidate in that pursuit actually. Gruden is only 47, he's still very young by NFL HC standards. He's been openly positive about Tebow. His offense would play to Tebow's strengths in many ways. And I'm sure part of him would absolutely love sticking it to the Raiders and Al Davis twice a year.

To me you give McDaniels the 2011 season to show what he can do, and no more injury excuses. Sink or swim. If at that point we still aren't getting the production we want then you bring in Gruden and let him go to work. Though I still think the best way to give McDaniels a shot in 2011 is to replace Ellis with Elway as the PR mouth of the organization and give him someone like Schottenheimer as a personnel guy who can help streamline the player management and get us a quality level of assistant coaching on the staff.

Sorry A) can happen at anytime during a game so worrying about that is pointless. B) It's better to know this now then down the road when we don't have a starter like Orton. Plus it gives him film to watch. He can see it. Right now we don't know what he is going to do during a game. Ignoring a problem doesn't mean it is fixed at all. For that reason alone I think he needs to play when we are getting blown out.

SonOfLe-loLang
11-24-2010, 10:04 AM
That's what's so laughable. He hasn't don't squat and looks like he's cramming for a term paper when he hands off the ball to the RB, but Tebownites act as if the Sky has just opened and it's raining gold bullion when he trots on the field.

I just haven't seen **** which makes me think he's as special as everyone wants to believe.

Some players inspire excitement, some don't. I dont know what to tell you. And as far as your last statement, LETS GET HIM ON THE FIELD SO WE CAN SEE

SonOfLe-loLang
11-24-2010, 10:05 AM
Sorry A) can happen at anytime during a game so worrying about that is pointless. B) It's better to know this now then down the road when we don't have a starter like Orton. Plus it gives him film to watch. He can see it. Right now we don't know what he is going to do during a game. Ignoring a problem doesn't mean it is fixed at all. For that reason alone I think he needs to play when we are getting blown out.

Screw getting blown out, when we're out of it, he should get a game. He doesnt have to play 4, but in week 15 or whatever when we are clearly out of it, let him get a game.

Smiling Assassin27
11-24-2010, 10:06 AM
The single biggest issue I see with the Broncos right now is that the team does not play with a level of intensity and confidence needed to consistently win in the NFL. This team is not mentally disciplined and folds at the first sign of adversity.



Let me stop you right there. The single biggest issue is that this team is marginally talented. You can play with as much intensity and confidence as you want, but if you lack skill, you will lose in the NFL, period. It's a talent driven league, so the first question for Tebow becomes does he have the skill set to play at a high level, not whether he could infuse intensity into the team, IMO.

HAT
11-24-2010, 10:09 AM
Though I still think the best way to give McDaniels a shot in 2011 is to replace Ellis with Elway as the PR mouth of the organization and give him someone like Schottenheimer as a personnel guy who can help streamline the player management and get us a quality level of assistant coaching on the staff.

That would be fantastically ironic. ^5

strafen
11-24-2010, 10:11 AM
Everyone is ignoring the simple financial aspect of the situation

We owe Orton at least $5.5 MM for 2011 if we cut or trade him
Orton will make $9MM in 2011 to be the starting QB

Josh does not extend Orton with so much guarentee money for '11 if they thought Tebow was ready

IMO, We are not trading Orton in 2011. Orton is the starting QB in 2011
And that's depressing to read. That sucks big time.
Many people here defend Orton as not being the "problem"
Of course he's not the problem per-se, but he's not getting it done by making a difference one way or another.
To have Orton as our QB in 2011 will be the final straw on McDaniels tenure here in Denver.

Most likely, McDaniels will go with Orton next year.
Mcdaniels hates losing, but he can't win either.
That said, the most probable scenario here is that Mcdaniels will go into the 2011 season with a losing record he's trying to stop.
To have an unproven Tebow -this with the understanding he will not play him this year- to be his starting QB is at this point far-fetched.
McDaniels will go with Orton.
He's not about to take chances.

I'd love to see Tebow in there. He can make things happen in more ways Orton could ever do.
Put Tebow in for the rest of the season and let's see where we are with him.
I don't see how that could be a negative at this point. His mobility will help the OL and would keep defenses honest.
If he shows he can make even more improvement and shows flashes of greatness going into next year, then, yes, send Orton packing...

Orton, and trust me folks, will be a hinderance for this team.
The guy does not have IT. He's as average as a QB can be...

Garcia Bronco
11-24-2010, 10:17 AM
You guys are going to have to come to the realization that we aren't winning until we get past this growing phase. It's not going to change with a new coach or GM or what other idea you come up with. It's time to take our lumps. Good. We've earned them. We've been at the top of the heap or damn near close for over 2 decades. So quit your bitching. We're lucky we've had it so good.

And there is no 2011 season, so it will be 2013 before we se Tim as a regular starter.

PS. It's going to get even worse before it gets better. Bank on it.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-24-2010, 10:18 AM
Strafen, nobody gives a **** what you think. Nobody listens to ****ing retards.

Shut. The ****. Up.

Thanks.

Chris
11-24-2010, 10:18 AM
Orton couldn't make anything happen from broken plays last game. He would just throw to his check down over and over again... ON THIRD DOWN and hope they'd make something happen!! Great stats or not.. that is Kyle Orton in a nutshell.

The season is lost so I agree... continue to let Orton lead this year while we prepare for Tebow next season.

As an aside, I think other teams might realise Orton is a system QB... I hope we get a 3rd for him. I'm not sure we'll get better.

Garcia Bronco
11-24-2010, 10:19 AM
And that's depressing to read. That sucks big time.
Many people here defend Orton as not being the "problem"
Of course he's not the problem per-se, but he's not getting it done by making a difference one way or another.
To have Orton as our QB in 2011 will be the final straw on McDaniels tenure here in Denver.


No it won't because there isn't a season next year. There will be a full on lockout. And Tim won't be ready in 2012.

Garcia Bronco
11-24-2010, 10:19 AM
Orton couldn't make anything happen from broken plays last game. He would just throw to his check down over and over again... ON THIRD DOWN and hope they'd make something happen!! Great stats or not.. that is Kyle Orton in a nutshell.

The season is lost so I agree... continue to let Orton lead this year while we prepare for Tebow next season.

As an aside, I think other teams might realise Orton is a system QB... I hope we get a 3rd for him. I'm not sure we'll get better.


Even if there was a season next year Tim won't be ready.

DBroncos4life
11-24-2010, 10:25 AM
Strafen, nobody gives a **** what you think. Nobody listens to ****ing retards.

Shut. The ****. Up.

Thanks.

Nothing screams no one listens to someone quite like a post directed at that person and I don't even read his posts. ROFL!

colonelbeef
11-24-2010, 10:26 AM
The problem extends a few miles beyond 'leadership'.

This is a talent problem first and foremost, and secondly a scheming issue. The O-line schemes are atrocious, the in game adjustments a total embarrassment.

BroncosSR
11-24-2010, 10:28 AM
This year has sucked for comeback victories for sure, but last year they technically had 3 which is literally above average for all but the most elite QBs to ever play the game.

You're right. If Orton didn't underthrow the ball to Marshall in the first game of the season, we wouldn't have won.

There's 3 kinds of lies... Lies, damned lies and statistics. Your inference that Orton somehow was clutch last year is a joke.

Beantown Bronco
11-24-2010, 10:30 AM
Orton couldn't make anything happen from broken plays last game. He would just throw to his check down over and over again... ON THIRD DOWN and hope they'd make something happen!! Great stats or not.. that is Kyle Orton in a nutshell.

Highlight #1

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010112200/2010/REG11/broncos@chargers/recap#tab:watch

Beantown Bronco
11-24-2010, 10:36 AM
You're right. If Orton didn't underthrow the ball to Marshall in the first game of the season, we wouldn't have won.

There's 3 kinds of lies... Lies, damned lies and statistics. Your inference that Orton is somehow was clutch last year is a joke.

You mean "implication". The one who makes the statement IMPLIES. The one reading INFERS.

And YOUR inference is wrong. I implied nothing. All I did was make two factual, indisputable statements that (1) we had 3 comeback victories last year and (2) 3 is about the average for elite QBs in NFL history.

lostknight
11-24-2010, 10:40 AM
The only way Tebow plays is if Pat Bowlen does a Bud Adams and tell Josh that he has to start Tebow to see what we have.

Garcia Bronco
11-24-2010, 10:47 AM
The only way Tebow plays is if Pat Bowlen does a Bud Adams and tell Josh that he has to start Tebow to see what we have.

which IMO would be a huge mistake.

SonOfLe-loLang
11-24-2010, 10:53 AM
which IMO would be a huge mistake.

I dont understand this HUGE mistake theory. Will it hurt our playoff chances? Ha, No. Will it hurt Tebow's psyche? No, one thing about Tim that seems to be universally accepted is that he is very mentally tough. If Tim were to play poorly in his game, i think it'd motivate him to do better. If he plays great, then its a win all around. How would this be a HUGE mistake?

gyldenlove
11-24-2010, 10:54 AM
Plummer was exciting; no matter how much we were losing, I always had a feeling he could bring us back. Sometimes he did, sometimes he threw a disgusting pick. Always believed though. Hard to complain about Orton, but I just don't have that feeling with him.

Plummer was exciting the same way being in a cage match with an angry rattlesnake or playing russian roulette is exiciting, when you win it is the best thing ever, but holy crap you can lose real ugly real fast if you are not careful.

PRBronco
11-24-2010, 10:58 AM
I dont understand this HUGE mistake theory. Will it hurt our playoff chances? Ha, No. Will it hurt Tebow's psyche? No, one thing about Tim that seems to be universally accepted is that he is very mentally tough. If Tim were to play poorly in his game, i think it'd motivate him to do better. If he plays great, then its a win all around. How would this be a HUGE mistake?

Look at Brady Quinn. He didn't always suck. He's damaged goods now because of what he was subjected to during his formative years in Cleveland. Let's not subject Tim to shellshock.

SonOfLe-loLang
11-24-2010, 11:00 AM
Look at Brady Quinn. He didn't always suck. He's damaged goods now because of what he was subjected to during his formative years in Cleveland. Let's not subject Tim to shellshock.

Way to cherry pick your argument. Look at Peyton Manning. Troy Aikman, Matt Ryan. They started from day one....man those guys SUCK

HAT
11-24-2010, 11:02 AM
I dont understand this HUGE mistake theory. Will it hurt our playoff chances? Ha, No. Will it hurt Tebow's psyche? No, one thing about Tim that seems to be universally accepted is that he is very mentally tough. If Tim were to play poorly in his game, i think it'd motivate him to do better. If he plays great, then its a win all around. How would this be a HUGE mistake?

Pretty sure he was referring to the fact that it would be a mistake b/c you never want the Owner forcing personnel decisions on the HC.

Dagmar
11-24-2010, 11:02 AM
Way to cherry pick your argument. Look at Peyton Manning. Troy Aikman, Matt Ryan. They started from day one....man those guys SUCK

Colt McCoy Sam Bradford Jimmy Clau...wait

SonOfLe-loLang
11-24-2010, 11:08 AM
Pretty sure he was referring to the fact that it would be a mistake b/c you never want the Owner forcing personnel decisions on the HC.

oh, well in that case, carry on

razorwire77
11-24-2010, 11:09 AM
I don't think Tebow should start this year under any circumstances other than injury, but allowing him to play in a blowout and throw against soft zone coverages to gain experience (like SD last week) can't really be a bad thing. It allows him to go through his progressions, make the correct reads within McDaniel's offense, and allow him to run a two minute offense without the risk of heavy blitzing.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-24-2010, 11:10 AM
Way to cherry pick your argument. Look at Peyton Manning. Troy Aikman, Matt Ryan. They started from day one....man those guys SUCK

So you say he cherry-picks, then you do the same thing? Interesting strategy.

It depends on each player's makeup. It depends on each player's innate skill and ability. Comparing one player to another is folly, because you really don't see what there is until you get the player on the field. When a player's in a bad situation from the start, it can end badly. Look at David Carr.

I guess I just don't see the harm in keeping Tebow off the field until we're sure he's ready. The Packers did that with Rodgers, and he (and they) have benefited from that a great deal. Who knows what would have happened if they'd started him from the beginning.

Dagmar
11-24-2010, 11:12 AM
So you say he cherry-picks, then you do the same thing? Interesting strategy.

It depends on each player's makeup. It depends on each player's innate skill and ability. Comparing one player to another is folly, because you really don't see what there is until you get the player on the field. When a player's in a bad situation from the start, it can end badly. Look at David Carr.

I guess I just don't see the harm in keeping Tebow off the field until we're sure he's ready. The Packers did that with Rodgers, and he (and they) have benefited from that a great deal. Who knows what would have happened if they'd started him from the beginning.

The problem is Green bay weren't having a disaster season and had a HOF QB playing. Many many of the Denver fan base will NEVER be sold on Kyle Orton, and see Tebow as a possible hero.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-24-2010, 11:15 AM
The problem is Green bay weren't having a disaster season and had a HOF QB playing. Many many of the Denver fan base will NEVER be sold on Kyle Orton, and see Tebow as a possible hero.

I get all of that. I do.

But the problem is that many of the Denver fanbase don't know their ass from a banjo. They'd rather get instant gratification (Tebow starting) than long term results (Tebow coming in in a few years, when he's actually ready).

SonOfLe-loLang
11-24-2010, 11:19 AM
So you say he cherry-picks, then you do the same thing? Interesting strategy.

It depends on each player's makeup. It depends on each player's innate skill and ability. Comparing one player to another is folly, because you really don't see what there is until you get the player on the field. When a player's in a bad situation from the start, it can end badly. Look at David Carr.

I guess I just don't see the harm in keeping Tebow off the field until we're sure he's ready. The Packers did that with Rodgers, and he (and they) have benefited from that a great deal. Who knows what would have happened if they'd started him from the beginning.

I agree, but it seems like Tim Tebow is as mentally tough as they come and the game will essentially be MEANINGLESS. If he's ready, let him play.

And im not cherry picking my argument, if i were, id be suggesting ALL rookies should play. I wasn't, i was implying that that myth is based on nothing.

bendog
11-24-2010, 11:21 AM
I think we'll see a little more of Tebow just for the fan satisifaction. But McDaniels really needs to win at least one and really two home games to not leave fans very pissed off entering a lock out, and Orton gives him the best chance to win at this time. This team has zero rushing attack. McCoy would be sucking bigtime in this situation.

strafen
11-24-2010, 11:21 AM
No it won't because there isn't a season next year. There will be a full on lockout. And Tim won't be ready in 2012.
Would you be surprised if Mcdaniels ends up trading Tebow?
I wouldn't.
He thinks Orton is the dhit.
I still believe there will be football next year.
To have Orton as our QB sucks major balls.
It is depressing...

SonOfLe-loLang
11-24-2010, 11:22 AM
I get all of that. I do.

But the problem is that many of the Denver fanbase don't know their ass from a banjo. They'd rather get instant gratification (Tebow starting) than long term results (Tebow coming in in a few years, when he's actually ready).

You are just assuming that putting him in there will cause this horrible damage to his psyche when it doesnt appear Tim has a fragile one.

Dagmar
11-24-2010, 11:25 AM
I think we'll see a little more of Tebow just for the fan satisifaction. But McDaniels really needs to win at least one and really two home games to not leave fans very pissed off entering a lock out, and Orton gives him the best chance to win at this time. This team has zero rushing attack. McCoy would be sucking bigtime in this situation.

We'll beat the Rams handsomely, of that I have no doubt, their D is having a wee collapse.

I'm fully aware you won't agree.

razorwire77
11-24-2010, 11:26 AM
The risk/reward in starting Tebow this season is too great. If we had some semblance of a consistent running game, if our defense could get off the field on 3rd down, and if Orton was the primary offensive hindrance then by all means start TT to gain experience. Love him or hate him, the reality is Kyle Orton has one of the best play action fakes in the league and it freezes defenses even without the threat of a running game. Tim's isn't nearly that good, and as a result teams aren't going to respect the fake at all. They are simply going to tee off on him over and over again. Best case scenario Tebow responds well, we finish at 6-10 and no harm, no foul. Worst case, he gets shell-shocked, and it's David Carr part two.

Imo a much better scenario is to try to improve the running game 2011, have McDaniels scale back his offense and tweak it to accommodate Tim Tebow's size and athleticism. And try to build a defense that doesn't force him to throw 45 times a game his first season as a starter. Then we can truly assess what he has rather than having him run for his life on this bad and injury riddled 2010 team.

strafen
11-24-2010, 11:26 AM
Strafen, nobody gives a **** what you think. Nobody listens to ****ing retards.

Shut. The ****. Up.

Thanks.Apparently you do, no?
This is a typical post by you.
You can't keep your foul mouth out of a good debate, can you?

I'd love to see if you can talk like that to people in their faces.
Probably not. You can only get away with this immature talk hiding behind a computer screen.
That's tough, you sound intimidating.
What a tough guy you are.
I'd love to meet you in person.
I hardly ever come across with people as tough as you are.
You don't see that very often...

So, if you want to derail a perfect good thread, continue on.
I'm game...

bendog
11-24-2010, 11:27 AM
You're not aware of ****. That's the problem with this place.

I think Den will win on Sunday, lose three on the road including a humiliation in KC and probably win one of the two final games at home ... unless Kubes decides to make a statment before getting fired and unless SD needs a win for playoff positioning.

edit, and i think Tebow will bet maybe 2-3 more touches in the coming weeks.

Pick Six
11-24-2010, 11:28 AM
I'm just hoping there actually IS a 2011 season. I agree with your premise, though. Orton is doing well. I see Tebow as the answer in the future. However, that's just it...the FUTURE. Putting him in, at this point, would hinder Orton's Pro Bowl season. Orton deserves to finish the season, and, possibly, parlay that into an opportunity with another team.

vancejohnson82
11-24-2010, 11:32 AM
Would you be surprised if Mcdaniels ends up trading Tebow?
I wouldn't.
He thinks Orton is the dhit.
I still believe there will be football next year.
To have Orton as our QB sucks major balls.
It is depressing...

here's Dragster...knowing whats going on in McDaniels head...and then claiming that he's going to trade his first round pick that he traded up to get....

and he's depressed....wah wah

Drek
11-24-2010, 11:33 AM
Sorry A) can happen at anytime during a game so worrying about that is pointless. B) It's better to know this now then down the road when we don't have a starter like Orton. Plus it gives him film to watch. He can see it. Right now we don't know what he is going to do during a game. Ignoring a problem doesn't mean it is fixed at all. For that reason alone I think he needs to play when we are getting blown out.
A) but getting hurt now robs development time that can cripple his long term growth.

B) that argument only works if you don't believe that given more time Tebow's fundamentals will still not improve. Many people who evaluate talent for a living believe that they will, given time.

We don't know what he's going to do during a game, but we can make sure that when the time comes he's optimally prepared for it. Right now he won't be. Given a full off-season, camp, and pre-season as the #1 will go a long ways towards getting him ready.

bendog
11-24-2010, 11:34 AM
I'm just hoping there actually IS a 2011 season. I agree with your premise, though. Orton is doing well. I see Tebow as the answer in the future. However, that's just it...the FUTURE. Putting him in, at this point, would hinder Orton's Pro Bowl season. Orton deserves to finish the season, and, possibly, parlay that into an opportunity with another team.

I think some people rationally think that Tebow getting experience would help the team be better down the road. That's logical. We don't really know how 'ready' he is. We do know that the inability to run the ball consistently puts the qb in 3rd and long, unless he completes one for more than 7 on first or second. I don't see any rookie really succeeding in that situation. Would it "ruin" Tebow? Who knows.

Then there's the view that McDaniels first priority should be winning as many more games this year as possible, and that Orton at this pt gives Den a better shot that Tebow. That's a logical take too.

Popps
11-24-2010, 11:35 AM
here's Dragster...knowing whats going on in McDaniels head...and then claiming that he's going to trade his first round pick that he traded up to get....

and he's depressed....wah wah

http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/arcady31/arcady311010/arcady31101000018/8101074-no-littering-sign.jpg

Put the trash on ignore, brother.

Keep Orange beautiful.

TonyR
11-24-2010, 11:38 AM
here's Dragster...

Out of curiousity, do we know for sure that this bundle of joy is the artist formerly known as dragster?

strafen
11-24-2010, 11:39 AM
here's Dragster...knowing whats going on in McDaniels head...and then claiming that he's going to trade his first round pick that he traded up to get....

and he's depressed....wah wahI said I wouldn't be surprised if HE did.
Alphonso Smith anyone?
Hilarious, isn't it?
You don't even have a clue of what you're talking about, do you?.
You're making an ass out of yourself in a futlie attempt to ridicule me.

Smith wasn't a first round pick, but for what we gave up to get him, he may as well been one
What makes you think he wouldn't do the same with Tebow?
Seen all the fail signings so far?
3-7 is the result of those bonehead moves, isn't it?

Mcdaniels has zero experience building teams.
He's trying for the first time by experimenting with one of the classiest organizations in all football; the Denver Broncos, and has taken this same organization to the level of the Rams and Lions.

vancejohnson82
11-24-2010, 11:39 AM
Out of curiousity, do we know for sure that this bundle of joy is the artist formerly known as dragster?

yea...its been revealed...now ive got to put this name on ignore too...to be honest, for a while I thought it was fun to have some discussion about the team and I was open to listening to some of the pitchfork crew...but there is nothing new that ever comes from them....so its time to just ignore i guess

vancejohnson82
11-24-2010, 11:41 AM
I said I wouldn't be surprised if HE did.
Alphonso Smith anyone?
Hilarious, isn't it?
You don't even have a clue of what you're talking about, do you?.
You're making an ass out of yourself in a futlie attempt to ridicule me.

Smith wasn't a first round pick, but for what we gave up to get him, he may as well been one
What makes you think he wouldn't?
Seen all the fail signings so far?
3-7 is the result of those bonehead moves, isn't it?

hey, idiot....Alphonso Smith was given two years to prove his worth....HE DIDNT...and you were one of the douchebag idiots that were saying he was HORRIBLE...he was a MIDGET...he SUCKS...and he did here...so we got rid of him when Cox proved himself to be an asset

strafen
11-24-2010, 11:45 AM
hey, idiot....Alphonso Smith was given two years to prove his worth....HE DIDNT...and you were one of the douchebag idiots that were saying he was HORRIBLE...he was a MIDGET...he SUCKS...and he did here...so we got rid of him when Cox proved himself to be an assetDo you talk like that all the time, or is it the toughness in you that shows thru the power of the internet?
Tough guy. My God, you're a tough son of a b****.
You're awesome, knowledgeable and a total class act.
Now, tell me how's Smith doing in Detroit?
Has it ocurred to you McDaniels doesn't know talent?

3 and 7 mothe****er!

Kaylore
11-24-2010, 11:47 AM
Trade Orton to a team like the Vikes. That would make for good TV and that's the kind of team he would fit like a glove on. Then jettison some of the older folks on the team for any picks possible, hire a real GM with absolute power and build through the draft putting Tebow in for next year. If he sucks and our team flounders, then we ditch McD and go with someone who preferably will work with Tebow, but if not, oh well, blow it all up.

PRBronco
11-24-2010, 11:52 AM
Trade Orton to a team like the Vikes. That would make for good TV and that's the kind of team he would fit like a glove on. Then jettison some of the older folks on the team for any picks possible, hire a real GM with absolute power and build through the draft putting Tebow in for next year. If he sucks and our team flounders, then we ditch McD and go with someone who preferably will work with Tebow, but if not, oh well, blow it all up.

And keep Priefer on as ST coach?

:poke: :stirstir:

Drek
11-24-2010, 11:58 AM
I think some people rationally think that Tebow getting experience would help the team be better down the road. That's logical. We don't really know how 'ready' he is. We do know that the inability to run the ball consistently puts the qb in 3rd and long, unless he completes one for more than 7 on first or second. I don't see any rookie really succeeding in that situation. Would it "ruin" Tebow? Who knows.

Then there's the view that McDaniels first priority should be winning as many more games this year as possible, and that Orton at this pt gives Den a better shot that Tebow. That's a logical take too.

See, while we don't know if that would ruin Tebow I think we can pretty safely say it wouldn't help him much.

Ideal world to me is letting Tebow refine his mechanics, get over the mental hurdles of this offense, and then prime him to hit the ground running next year. Your OL should be healthier and all the young, inexperienced talent we have on it now should start to come together. The young WRs will be a step further into their development. We'll likely have our biggest impact defensive player, Dumervil, back on the field. Our young but productive kicking game will be a little more experienced. Etc. etc.

We could set up 2011 to be a perfect storm for Tim Tebow to step in and hit the ground running. Doing that gives him instant massive cache with his teammates and would completely change the culture of this team overnight. It might not happen that way but we're perfectly positioned to set it up and take that 'dare to be great' shot in 2011.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-24-2010, 12:02 PM
I agree, but it seems like Tim Tebow is as mentally tough as they come and the game will essentially be MEANINGLESS. If he's ready, let him play.

And im not cherry picking my argument, if i were, id be suggesting ALL rookies should play. I wasn't, i was implying that that myth is based on nothing.

It's not a myth. There is absolutely no telling how good players like Alex Smith and David Carr could have been if they hadn't been thrown in too early. There's no telling how much Rodgers and others might have struggled, had they been thrown in from the start.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-24-2010, 12:07 PM
You are just assuming that putting him in there will cause this horrible damage to his psyche when it doesnt appear Tim has a fragile one.

Based on WHAT? Dude, I understand that you like the guy, but come on.

Didn't appear David Carr had a fragile ego either.

SonOfLe-loLang
11-24-2010, 12:15 PM
Based on WHAT? Dude, I understand that you like the guy, but come on.

Didn't appear David Carr had a fragile ego either.


Based on HIS WHOLE ENTIRE COLLEGE CAREER and WHAT EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO COMES ACROSS HIM SAYS. The guy has not lead the normal life, certainly not like David Carr who, if i recall, was a one season wonder at Fresno. Compare Tebow's mentality to Peytons. There is just somethnig about them.

Plus, we arent an expansion team, we're not the texans...its a fools comparison

bendog
11-24-2010, 12:15 PM
See, while we don't know if that would ruin Tebow I think we can pretty safely say it wouldn't help him much.

Ideal world to me is letting Tebow refine his mechanics, get over the mental hurdles of this offense, and then prime him to hit the ground running next year. Your OL should be healthier and all the young, inexperienced talent we have on it now should start to come together. The young WRs will be a step further into their development. We'll likely have our biggest impact defensive player, Dumervil, back on the field. Our young but productive kicking game will be a little more experienced. Etc. etc.

We could set up 2011 to be a perfect storm for Tim Tebow to step in and hit the ground running. Doing that gives him instant massive cache with his teammates and would completely change the culture of this team overnight. It might not happen that way but we're perfectly positioned to set it up and take that 'dare to be great' shot in 2011.

This defense is really, really bad. It'll take a min of two compete drafts to have a chance to get good. I honestly have no problem with McDaniels blowing up the offense. I have serious issues with his 09 draft and this "unprepared" excuse is just ****. Unprepared doesn't explain the Moreno pick and it certainly doesn't explain A. Smith. McDaniels continues to expend picks the way Shanny expended FA money. But, McDaniels is a top tier OC and he may pull his head out of his ass on personnel matters.

My thinking is sort of like Klis on the mailbag thread. If Den loses out, the pressure on Bowlen will increase, and even if McDaniels is not fired immediately, fans will have even less tolerance for the crap team that plays defense, and with even the best outcome, it's not a quick fix. So, I hope the team wins two more games, and imo Orton gives them the best chance.

SonOfLe-loLang
11-24-2010, 12:18 PM
It's not a myth. There is absolutely no telling how good players like Alex Smith and David Carr could have been if they hadn't been thrown in too early. There's no telling how much Rodgers and others might have struggled, had they been thrown in from the start.

And they might have sucked no matter what. There's no right way to do this, there are successes on both sides of the coin, and failures as well. To take a hard stance on the side of sitting a guy for the sake of sitting him because he'll "learn" or "because it worked for aaron rodgers" is absurd. And playing him IN A GAME is hardly handing him over the keys. Football is obviously a lot of on the job training, might as well put him on the job.

Popps
11-24-2010, 12:30 PM
This defense is really, really bad. It'll take a min of two compete drafts to have a chance to get good.

Nonsense.

The defense has problems, for sure. The biggest is the loss of our primary pass-rusher.

So, factor in Dumervil and a healthy Ayers... and we still need two complete drafts? I doubt it.

Add this...

- 1 High quality NT
- 1 High quality ILB
- 1 High Quality S

Then, add Doom and Ayers along with the young, developing guys like Squid and Cox, and you've got the makings of a good defense.

A solid draft and FA period next year could have this defense good almost immediately.

This is all based on Martindale knowing what he's doing. The jury is still out on that one.

bendog
11-24-2010, 12:33 PM
Nonsense.

The defense has problems, for sure. The biggest is the loss of our primary pass-rusher.

So, factor in Dumervil and a healthy Ayers... and we still need two complete drafts? I doubt it.

Add this...

- 1 High quality NT
- 1 High quality ILB
- 1 High Quality S

Then, add Doom and Ayers along with the young, developing guys like Squid and Cox, and you've got the makings of a good defense.

A solid draft and FA period next year could have this defense good almost immediately.

This is all based on Martindale knowing what he's doing. The jury is still out on that one.

right, you're going to add three high qualtity starters in one offseason, and replace champ cause he's gone. And who is playing 3-4 DE? Dawkins is finished too.

DrFate
11-24-2010, 12:36 PM
Even if there was a season next year Tim won't be ready.

If that's the case it really puts the final nail in the McDaniels coffin, doesn't it? You spend three picks on a guy who won't be the starter for three years? That has to be unprecedented....

cutthemdown
11-24-2010, 12:37 PM
If Mcdaniels starts Tebow right now and he is awful it would be the final nail in his coffin. By waiting he may buy himself another yr.

HAT
11-24-2010, 12:41 PM
I think some people rationally think that Tebow getting experience would help the team be better down the road. That's logical. We don't really know how 'ready' he is. We do know that the inability to run the ball consistently puts the qb in 3rd and long, unless he completes one for more than 7 on first or second. I don't see any rookie really succeeding in that situation. Would it "ruin" Tebow? Who knows.

Then there's the view that McDaniels first priority should be winning as many more games this year as possible, and that Orton at this pt gives Den a better shot that Tebow. That's a logical take too.

The unknown is exactly WHY I don't want Tebow to play more this year.

I like getting excited for the kid when he comes in at the 5 yard line, and people call it a gimmick. I like the fact that there are 2 camps amongst "the experts" in the MSM regarding him.

I want him under the radar (save for vanilla NFLX) until he is made the full time starter. Whether that's in 2011 or 2012 doesn't really matter to me.

But when it happens I want this mofo to run over the NFL like a bag of mother****ing CONCRETE CYANIDE!!!

cutthemdown
11-24-2010, 12:42 PM
Nonsense.

The defense has problems, for sure. The biggest is the loss of our primary pass-rusher.

So, factor in Dumervil and a healthy Ayers... and we still need two complete drafts? I doubt it.

Add this...

- 1 High quality NT
- 1 High quality ILB
- 1 High Quality S

Then, add Doom and Ayers along with the young, developing guys like Squid and Cox, and you've got the makings of a good defense.

A solid draft and FA period next year could have this defense good almost immediately.

This is all based on Martindale knowing what he's doing. The jury is still out on that one.


In a way I agree you can fix a lot in an offseason if there is availability. The problem is that there probably won't be any quality starting NT or ILB available in FA. You do see some servicable Safety's on back end of career.

I looked at the list of potential FA a little earlier in the yr and it didn't look promising really. Teams just don't let good players walk. It's usually the divas, the head cases, the older players, the ones who think they are worth too much.

We could maybe get some more picks for players like DJ (maybe a midround pick like a 4th or 5th?) and then Bailey if we tagged him (maybe a 2nd at most, probably more like a 3rd)

But it's your personality to always be positive in some way. I can dig that. Too bad you can't stand anyone not like you.

DBroncos4life
11-24-2010, 12:53 PM
A) but getting hurt now robs development time that can cripple his long term growth.

B) that argument only works if you don't believe that given more time Tebow's fundamentals will still not improve. Many people who evaluate talent for a living believe that they will, given time.

We don't know what he's going to do during a game, but we can make sure that when the time comes he's optimally prepared for it. Right now he won't be. Given a full off-season, camp, and pre-season as the #1 will go a long ways towards getting him ready.

A) He can get hurt walking. Should we buy him a bubble and make him live in it so we don't run the risk of robbing him of development time? He is a pro he can get hurt. Big deal.

B). I know we don't know what he is going to do in a real game. The coaching staff doesn't either nor does Tim Tebow himself. The only way we will know is if he plays in a real game. There is zero reason he shouldn't be given playing time when the game is out of hand so we can get some game film on him and see what he does during a real game. Regardless this is Tim Tebow we are talking about. There is no reason to ever believe he isn't going to be prepared for a game.

DBroncos4life
11-24-2010, 12:55 PM
Trade Orton to a team like the Vikes. That would make for good TV and that's the kind of team he would fit like a glove on. Then jettison some of the older folks on the team for any picks possible, hire a real GM with absolute power and build through the draft putting Tebow in for next year. If he sucks and our team flounders, then we ditch McD and go with someone who preferably will work with Tebow, but if not, oh well, blow it all up.

I'm willing to bet that 90% of Vikings fans would rather have had Orton this year then Favre given what they have seen this year out of Favre.

HAT
11-24-2010, 01:02 PM
here's Dragster...knowing whats going on in McDaniels head...and then claiming that he's going to trade his first round pick that he traded up to get....



Even funnier when he pretends to know what's going on in McD's head and then argues with himself about it. LOL


Would you be surprised if Mcdaniels ends up trading Tebow?
I wouldn't.
He thinks Orton is the dhit.
I still believe there will be football next year.
To have Orton as our QB sucks major balls.
It is depressing...

The way I look at at is like this.
From best to worst:
1-Tebow
2-Quinn
3-Orton

This is ranked by both athletic abilities and potential.

Obviously Orton is our #1 QB but not for long.
McDaniels didn't draft two QB's and signed and traded for another thinking Orton is his long term solution.


http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2889406&postcount=22

Que
11-24-2010, 01:11 PM
From a more holistic view for the entire organization that also works out to our advantage because it will maximize Orton's value and let us shop him in a market with high QB demand. Minnesota, Carolina, Arizona, Oakland, and Tennessee at a minimum will be looking for new QB options, with San Francisco, Miami, and potentially a few others as interested buyers.


Great post Drek. I actually like Orton and don't want to see him benched as the starter. Where I have my problem with Josh is exactly what you alluded to above. We're going to have a choice to make and it probably should be at the beginning of next season (CBA willing). Trade Orton or chalk up his value as training for Tebow because we will undoubtedly lose him to free agency.

So, given this perspective, the thing I find almost inexcusable from Josh is why he leaves Orton in the game during a blowout (down by 3-4 TDs). It only risks injury to Orton which would devalue him as a trade asset to the teams you list above. The more prudent choice would be to bring in Tebow or even Quinn in these situations (Tebow would be my choice). Leaving Orton in defies logic and I am left with the conclusion that it is hubris on the part of McDaniels. In today's NFL, hubris gets you a high draft pick for your replacement. Time for him to mature and start acting like a NFL head coach.

EDIT: Ok, I tried to bite my tongue but this is how I really wanted to end my post. "Time to grow up Josh and stop acting like an arrogant little OC f***wad hiding behind Momma Bellicheat's skirts." But I digress...

Garcia Bronco
11-24-2010, 01:30 PM
If that's the case it really puts the final nail in the McDaniels coffin, doesn't it? You spend three picks on a guy who won't be the starter for three years? That has to be unprecedented....

I don't think so. McDaniels after this season is going to be in the final year of his contract. He may start Tim on the next season, but the situation you allude to was already in play before we drafted Tim. McDaniels might run out of contract regardless.

Garcia Bronco
11-24-2010, 01:33 PM
I dont understand this HUGE mistake theory. Will it hurt our playoff chances? Ha, No. Will it hurt Tebow's psyche? No, one thing about Tim that seems to be universally accepted is that he is very mentally tough. If Tim were to play poorly in his game, i think it'd motivate him to do better. If he plays great, then its a win all around. How would this be a HUGE mistake?

He's not ready. And IMO he won't be ready until after several seasons of learning how to read NFL defenses without taking the beating in the process. Give him 3 seasons to sit and learn.

Dagmar
11-24-2010, 01:40 PM
even funnier when he pretends to know what's going on in mcd's head and then argues with himself about it. Lol






http://www.orangemane.com/bb/showpost.php?p=2889406&postcount=22

lol

NUB
11-24-2010, 03:38 PM
This isn't like Drew Brees/Philip Rivers or Jake Plummer/Jay Cutler. I say play him because there are simply no real pressures at this moment. We lose nothing by giving him experience and Tebow does not come across as the sort of player who will get rattled easily if he does poorly. I mean, the only way to get experience is to play the game. Elway, McNabb, Manning etc. are all very good quarterbacks who were "thrown" to the wolves so to speak (McNabb even came into a situation like we have now).

Btw, "mechanics" are way overplayed.

TailgateNut
11-24-2010, 07:25 PM
strafen, nobody gives a **** what you think. Nobody listens to ****ing retards.

Shut. The ****. Up.

Thanks.


^5

TailgateNut
11-24-2010, 07:30 PM
Out of curiousity, do we know for sure that this bundle of joy is the artist formerly known as dragster?


unless we are ignorant,.......we know!

Just like McSkillet is McDramaLlama.

dsmoot
11-24-2010, 08:11 PM
You make a lot of great points. But I think if McDaniels wants to hold onto his job until next year, he will start playing Tebow.

No owner is going to fire a coach who is playing his rookie #1 QB. Playing Tebow will save McDaniels job.

Plus . . . even though Orton is having a great season the wins aren't coming. That's a leadership issue. Yes, the defense sucks. But in the Broncos 2 blowout losses to divisional rivals they scored only 14 points in both. That is not going to win you games in the NFL. There is something missing offensively from a leadership standpoint.

Tebow has gobs of leadership . . . the team and fans are energized every time he takes the field. And in his limited role he has already produced 4 TDS.

The season is lost. Playing Tebow will give him confidence going into next season. Otherwise, Tebow will basically be a rookie again in 2011.

I really liked most of what Drek had said. I agree with you that the real statistic is exactly what McDaniels said earlier, its all about wins and performance on 3rd down and in the 4th quarter. As the old saying goes "figures lie and liars figure", Orton had not done well in that category. Yes, to date he is the anti-Elway. The Broncos have now lost 15 of the last 20. More importantly, there is not a sign of improvement. The KC game is only a blip on the radar screen.

Given all of that, I don't think McDaniels is as safe as we might think no matter what Tebow is doing. Bowlen and Ellis must ask themselves the question, "are we regressing?". It was difficult to cut ties with Shanahan, it won't be difficult with McDaniels. What disturbs me the most right now is that McDaniels is seemingly running out of ways to motivate this team to play competitively, game in and game out.

tubbs
11-24-2010, 10:36 PM
Dude, Tebow is going to PWN next year.

TailgateNut
11-25-2010, 01:21 AM
Dude, Tebow is going to PWN next year.


Anyone who starts a sentence with "Dude" needs a good bitch-slapping.

Bronco Yoda
11-25-2010, 01:52 AM
Watching the game last week just reinforced the importance of the QB position in respect to will and desire.

As much as I dislike Rivers, I respect the fire in his eyes and his will to win on the field. Anyone else see those shots of Rivers on the sideline after we scored that first TD. You could see he wanted to... no NEEDED to burn the place down. You could see it...FEEL it through the screen.

Then you see Orton on the sidelines and can't help but want that same fire in him. No matter how good or bad the game may be going, he's pretty chill. Don't get me wrong I like the guy. I've never trashed the guy. Behind him 100%.

But.... then they panned off to Tebow's intense look and you could FEEL that he was itching to 'get some'. It's been awhile since I actually seen someone more intense than Rivers... until Tebow.

I just hope Tebow plays up to his disire. If so, good things will be ahead of us. Anyone else get goosebumps from that. I did.

TailgateNut
11-25-2010, 02:35 AM
Watching the game last week just reinforced the importance of the QB position in respect to will and desire.

As much as I dislike Rivers, I respect the fire in his eyes and his will to win on the field. Anyone else see those shots of Rivers on the sideline after we scored that first TD. You could see he wanted to... no NEEDED to burn the place down. You could see it...FEEL it through the screen.

Then you see Orton on the sidelines and can't help but want that same fire in him. No matter how good or bad the game may be going, he's pretty chill. Don't get me wrong I like the guy. I've never trashed the guy. Behind him 100%.

But.... then they panned off to Tebow's intense look and you could FEEL that he was itching to 'get some'. It's been awhile since I actually seen someone more intense than Rivers... until Tebow.

I just hope Tebow plays up to his disire. If so, good things will be ahead of us. Anyone else get goosebumps from that. I did.

Yep, it reminds me of the story about the old bull and the young bull standing on a hill looking down on a pasture filled with young cows. The young bull says to the old bull "let run down there and **** one of those cows", and the old bull replies "no, lets walk down and **** em all".:~ohyah!: