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ND Bronco Fan
11-17-2010, 10:46 AM
Per coaches press conference.

BigPlayShay
11-17-2010, 10:47 AM
MaxBroncos
Jarvis Moss released by the #Broncos. Robert Ayers is expected to practice today. Andre Goodman is the only player not expected to practice.

tsiguy96
11-17-2010, 10:47 AM
ahhhh! crazy, wonder who they are going to sign? the guy the patriots just cut? shawn crable i think

edit:

Denver_Broncos

The Broncos on Wednesday signed LB David Veikune.

ND Bronco Fan
11-17-2010, 10:47 AM
And Ayers back to practice today.

BigPlayShay
11-17-2010, 10:49 AM
http://blog.denverbroncos.com/denverbroncos/veikune-joins-squad/

http://files.denverbroncos.com/resources/custom/Images/10_Blogs/101117_veikune.jpg

The Broncos bolstered their linebacking corps on Wednesday, signing free agent David Veikune.

To make room for Veikune, the team waived linebacker Jarvis Moss.

Veikune played in 10 games for Cleveland last season after the Browns drafted him in the second round of the 2009 NFL Draft. The 6-foot-2, 257 pound linebacker registered eight tackles in three preseason games this season before being waived on Sept. 7.

In college at Hawaii, Veikune appeared in 41 games as a defensive end, earning All-Western Athletic Conference honors in his final two seasons.

With the Broncos, the 24-year-old will wear No. 90.

Moss, a 2007 first-round draft pick, played 34 games in four seasons as a Bronco with one start, totaling 42 tackles, 3.5 sacks and a forced fumble.

- Eric Detweiler, DenverBroncos.com

MileHighMagic
11-17-2010, 10:49 AM
HAHAHAHAAHAHA! Where ya at, Florida Bronco?!

This was a couple yrs too late. Good riddance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2KBack
11-17-2010, 10:50 AM
considering the health of our OLB, this says a lot about Moss. I supported him till the end, but looks like the kid is just a bust. I'll eat my crow on that, I really thought he just needed time and coaching.

Killericon
11-17-2010, 10:50 AM
:D

Yes.

Ramathorn
11-17-2010, 10:50 AM
Good riddence to moss.....he was pathetic

Requiem
11-17-2010, 10:51 AM
Paging Mediator12, paging Mediator12. . .

:D

Smiling Assassin27
11-17-2010, 10:51 AM
Somebody post that Lombardi trophy IMMEDIATELY. This is the impetus that will get us there. Someday...

snowspot66
11-17-2010, 10:51 AM
Instant upgrade.

Beantown Bronco
11-17-2010, 10:52 AM
Looks like he may have to literally kill someone to stay rich.

baja
11-17-2010, 10:52 AM
Another steller first round Shanny pick tossed to the curb.

Want'a bet teams will be fighting one another to sign him?

Josh is tearing this team apart.

tsiguy96
11-17-2010, 10:52 AM
smiling assassin, your avatar makes me life, not gonna lie. its so ironic.

SoDak Bronco
11-17-2010, 10:53 AM
he is another terrible pick by Shanny..the guy is too damn skinny to make an impact in the NFL

Pseudofool
11-17-2010, 10:54 AM
Ayers also on the field, only Goody out.

snowspot66
11-17-2010, 10:54 AM
I hope Ayers is good to go this week. We could sure use him even if he isn't in shape for the whole game.

Smiling Assassin27
11-17-2010, 10:54 AM
Moss, a 2007 first-round draft pick, played 34 games in four seasons as a Bronco with one start, totaling 42 tackles, 3.5 sacks and a forced fumble.



And one wholly unnecessary block in the back penalty that cost the Broncos a game in London. Call 1-800-S-H-A-N-A-H-A-N for a job, Jar-Jar....

Requiem
11-17-2010, 10:55 AM
http://community.post-gazette.com/cfs-filesystemfile.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Components.UserFiles/00.00.01.11.72/lombardi_2D00_trophy_5F00_full.jpg

Popps
11-17-2010, 10:56 AM
Looks like he may have to literally kill someone to stay rich.

Yea, that hustle didn't keep him fly, I guess.

tsiguy96
11-17-2010, 10:56 AM
wonder if ayers starts. i hope so, but at the same time, haggan will then take over for mays and mays is on the bench. mays showed something at MLB we havent seen in awhile, id atleast like to see him rotated in. have haggan move to other side and rotate with hunter.

Smiling Assassin27
11-17-2010, 10:57 AM
smiling assassin, your avatar makes me life, not gonna lie. its so ironic.


i'm sure it ain't the first and i know it won't be the last, tsi. ROFL!

Popps
11-17-2010, 10:57 AM
Another steller first round Shanny pick tossed to the curb.

Want'a bet teams will be fighting one another to sign him?

Josh is tearing this team apart.


Josh certainly gave him a chance, though... you have to admit that. He saw SOMETHING in the guy, but the dude just couldn't make an impact, ever. Just looked to skinny, to me. Oh, and stupid.


Ayers coming back should have its own thread, though. This is fantastic news.

BigPlayShay
11-17-2010, 10:59 AM
MaxBroncos:
With Moss cut, the only pre-'08 first-rounder left on the #Broncos' roster is D.J. Williams.

broncocalijohn
11-17-2010, 11:00 AM
Wonder what his twitter account says today. I bet it isnt about playing big time to get his pay day. Lasted longer than George Foster who was even a bigger bust. Now he can go to the Lions and excel.

tsiguy96
11-17-2010, 11:00 AM
i'm sure it ain't the first and i know it won't be the last, tsi. ROFL!

hahahahaha. life=laugh

anyway. just think its funny that people key in on obama, and just forget that for the last 40 years, fiscal conservatism has gone down the drain. republican or democrat, forget the talking points and what they claim their party is about and look what actually happened. just funny.

Pony Boy
11-17-2010, 11:00 AM
We just need a guy with long hair .....David Veikune signed

strafen
11-17-2010, 11:01 AM
What took them so long.
My God, I thought this guy had some serious incriminating info on somebody within the Broncos organization.

bronco militia
11-17-2010, 11:01 AM
Goodman should go on IR

Quoydogs
11-17-2010, 11:02 AM
Good riddence to moss.....he was pathetic

Sorry if you saw my other post before I deleted it. I thought I clicked the Mock thread.

Quoydogs
11-17-2010, 11:03 AM
Goodman should go on IR

Hopefully Nate Jones will too ROFL!

bronco militia
11-17-2010, 11:04 AM
great, another Brownco

Pony Boy
11-17-2010, 11:05 AM
http://blog.denverbroncos.com/denverbroncos/veikune-joins-squad/

http://files.denverbroncos.com/resources/custom/Images/10_Blogs/101117_veikune.jpg

Better hide the head and shoulders

Drek
11-17-2010, 11:06 AM
wonder if ayers starts. i hope so, but at the same time, haggan will then take over for mays and mays is on the bench. mays showed something at MLB we havent seen in awhile, id atleast like to see him rotated in. have haggan move to other side and rotate with hunter.

Haggan showed something at OLB himself on Sunday, putting up three sacks and a forced fumble.

I'd have to think we're going to use Haggan at OLB still and let Ayers work his way back in rotation with both Haggan and Hunter.

We're finally in a more comfortable spot from a LB depth standpoint, no need to rush Ayers into a full time job when his best skill set (stuffing the run) and Hunter's best skill set (rushing the passer) play off of one another so well.

LonghornBronco
11-17-2010, 11:07 AM
Anybody know how much money he's stolen from the Broncos to date?

Old Dude
11-17-2010, 11:09 AM
threads merged

Br0nc0Buster
11-17-2010, 11:09 AM
oh that is wonderful news
flush that turd down the drain

adios Jarvis, keep your hustle fly somewhere else

Smiling Assassin27
11-17-2010, 11:09 AM
hahahahaha. life=laugh

anyway. just think its funny that people key in on obama, and just forget that for the last 40 years, fiscal conservatism has gone down the drain. republican or democrat, forget the talking points and what they claim their party is about and look what actually happened. just funny.

a discussion for another time, to be sure. preaching to the choir, though, man.

Kaylore
11-17-2010, 11:11 AM
Looks like he may have to literally kill someone to stay rich.

LOL Yeah I guess so.

So there's one guy I was way off on. disappointing especially when you consider we traded up to get him. Very disappointing.

Baba Booey
11-17-2010, 11:16 AM
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3158/chappelle.gif

ColoradoDarin
11-17-2010, 11:16 AM
but but but, he graded out like the next Jason Taylor!!



'bout effing time. Dear Jarvis, it's not goodbye, it's good riddance.

Rocket 7
11-17-2010, 11:17 AM
Scroll down to the Jarvis Moss post. Some are pretty funny.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/DenverBroncos

supermanhr9
11-17-2010, 11:19 AM
anyone that has ever paid any attention to anything I say knows that I have a crazy Samoan logic, meaning when in doubt, sign/draft a freaking Samoan. This makes me happy. Although I wish it would have been Rey Mauluaga instead 2 years ago.

Old Dude
11-17-2010, 11:19 AM
In retrospect, maybe they should have just traded away the 07 pick for a pick in 08. The 2007 class wasn't exactly brimming over with studs on the defensive line.

randomtask
11-17-2010, 11:22 AM
... and there was much rejoicing.

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/76752-rejoice.jpg

tsiguy96
11-17-2010, 11:23 AM
Scroll down to the Jarvis Moss post. Some are pretty funny.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/DenverBroncos

do any of those people even understand football, or follow the broncos at all? how can any true bronco fan be upset by this move?

Drek
11-17-2010, 11:23 AM
anyone that has ever paid any attention to anything I say knows that I have a crazy Samoan logic, meaning when in doubt, sign/draft a freaking Samoan. This makes me happy. Although I wish it would have been Rey Mauluaga instead 2 years ago.

You mean Rey "I'm a mediocre 2 down LB who laid out some PAC 10 kids in college so I got pumped up" Maualuga?

I'm quite happy not having that mediocrity on this team. James Laurinitis would've been nice if he didn't have DJ, but we do. Jasper Brinkley though? That would've been a nice late round pick up.

Drek
11-17-2010, 11:28 AM
do any of those people even understand football, or follow the broncos at all? how can any true bronco fan be upset by this move?

I find it amusing how many of the people upset at losing Moss compare it to trading Hillis.

All you "BUT HE TRADED HILLIS" 'tards take note, many people who agree with you also think Jarvis Moss is a stud in the making.

Rabb
11-17-2010, 11:29 AM
we needed a bad ass Samoan guy

TheReverend
11-17-2010, 11:30 AM
Wonder what his twitter account says today. I bet it isnt about playing big time to get his pay day. Lasted longer than George Foster who was even a bigger bust. Now he can go to the Lions and excel.

By what retarded standard?

_Oro_
11-17-2010, 11:30 AM
Wooo hoooooooooo!

_Oro_
11-17-2010, 11:31 AM
And we get a Polynesian, what an awesome deal.

baja
11-17-2010, 11:32 AM
Josh certainly gave him a chance, though... you have to admit that. He saw SOMETHING in the guy, but the dude just couldn't make an impact, ever. Just looked to skinny, to me. Oh, and stupid.


Ayers coming back should have its own thread, though. This is fantastic news.

You know I'm being sarcastic right?

I highly doubt Moss will be picked up by anyone, well maybe Washing ton. ;D

baja
11-17-2010, 11:34 AM
MaxBroncos:
With Moss cut, the only pre-'08 first-rounder left on the #Broncos' roster is D.J. Williams.

What does that tell you?

baja
11-17-2010, 11:37 AM
LOL Yeah I guess so.

So there's one guy I was way off on. disappointing especially when you consider we traded up to get him. Very disappointing.

Anybody remember what we gave up to get Moss?

broncocalijohn
11-17-2010, 11:39 AM
By what retarded standard?

what are you, TJ side kick? Foster was horrible and the worst of the two. R u retarded for even questioning which player was worse? Why?

Jetmeck
11-17-2010, 11:43 AM
Another steller first round Shanny pick tossed to the curb.

Want'a bet teams will be fighting one another to sign him?

Josh is tearing this team apart.

This was obvious to anyone but your sarcasm considering some of Josh's past personnel decisions is hardly appropriate !

TheReverend
11-17-2010, 11:46 AM
what are you, TJ side kick? Foster was horrible and the worst of the two. R u retarded for even questioning which player was worse? Why?

Player 1:

57 career starts.
Part of a unit that blocked for over 2500 rushing yards
Returned compensation in the form of being traded.

Player 2:

1 career start in a gimmick game vs Indy.
0 accomplishments.
Returned 0 compensation.

Conclusion:

you're a stupid **** and it's adorable that a grown man is typing like a teenage girl texts

baja
11-17-2010, 11:47 AM
This was obvious to anyone but your sarcasm considering some of Josh's past personnel decisions is hardly appropriate !

Make that 32 + 1 shanny players out of football.

Old Dude
11-17-2010, 11:47 AM
Anybody remember what we gave up to get Moss?

Denver traded its own first round pick (#21) a third round pick (#86) and a fifth round pick (#198) for Jacksonville's 1st round pick (#17 overall).

ColoradoDarin
11-17-2010, 11:49 AM
Anybody remember what we gave up to get Moss?

I'm pretty sure we gave up a 3rd round pick to move up (4 spots?).

ColoradoDarin
11-17-2010, 11:49 AM
Denver traded its own first round pick (#21) a third round pick (#86) and a fifth round pick (#198) for Jacksonville's 1st round pick (#17 overall).

Egad that's worse than I remember.

Awful, just awful.

At least when we gave up 3 picks for Tebow we've already got several TDs out of him.

BroncoLifer
11-17-2010, 11:51 AM
Anybody remember what we gave up to get Moss?

http://www.prosportstransactions.com/football/

One of the most useful sites on the interwebs. It also has hoops, hockey & baseball.

Pat Bowlen
11-17-2010, 11:51 AM
What took them so long.
My God, I thought this guy had some serious incriminating info on somebody within the Broncos organization.
Let's just say that I was hypothetically able to repossess any such material prior to allowing these roster moves. I thank Jarvis for his attempted contributions to the team and wish him well in the future.

Dedhed
11-17-2010, 11:52 AM
anyone that has ever paid any attention to anything I say knows that I have a crazy Samoan logic, meaning when in doubt, sign/draft a freaking Samoan. This makes me happy. Although I wish it would have been Rey Mauluaga instead 2 years ago.

I'm on the same page. There's been a Samoan in in each of the last 5 or 6 drafts that I really was hoping we took, and they've all panned out pretty well.

Veikune was a guy that I actually liked a lot in the mid rounds, but the Browns swiped him up early.

This is a guy, much like Tebow, who I would never bet against. I don't know what happened in Cleveand where he was shuffled between ILB and OLB under Mangini and never found a role. Considering they are changing a lot of things within that organization I will certainly give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he was a transitional casualty.

One thing is for sure with this move; we've made a huge upgrade in the effort category by going from Moss to Veikune. Releasing Moss is an upgrade simply by taking away a begative, but Veikune is one of the highest motor guys you'll see on a football field.

gyldenlove
11-17-2010, 11:54 AM
In a slightly ironic twist I tried to keep an eye on Moss during the last game, in the 4th quarter I watched him for several plays. The first play I noticed he had a good spin move and got pressure on Cassel who was able to get the ball out quickly.

Then followed 2 plays of him running directly into the tackle and he was completely manhandled.

On the 4th play which was a pass play Moss went wide on Albert and had a step, but for some reason instead of keeping on he tried to cut inside but ran right into Albert and was neutralized.

On the remaining plays of the 4th quarter I didn't see him do anything good, he just doesn't have the power to take on tackles and he seems reluctant to use speed. He did attempt a swim move but didn't get anywhere, the only move that had success was the spin move.

Dedhed
11-17-2010, 12:01 PM
Denver traded its own first round pick (#21) a third round pick (#86) and a fifth round pick (#198) for Jacksonville's 1st round pick (#17 overall).
Wow, that's brutal.

cabronco
11-17-2010, 12:01 PM
he is another terrible pick by Shanny..the guy is too damn skinny to make an impact in the NFL


The guy always looked frail to me. Then there's a pic of him last game being stopped at the LOS, trying to jump in the air. He looked thinner than ever, like two popsicle sticks, Uhhg. Good riddens.

Old Dude
11-17-2010, 12:02 PM
Denver traded its own first round pick (#21) a third round pick (#86) and a fifth round pick (#198) for Jacksonville's 1st round pick (#17 overall).


Hindsight is always 20/20, but had they stayed at 21, they could have taken either Brandon Meriweather (pro bowl safety for Pats) or Jon Beason (pro bowl LB for Panthers).

Lots of ways they could have gone after that, but just as an example, at 86, they could have easily traded down to get Marcus Thomas (who they drafted at 121) - instead of having to trade up for him using their picks at 176, 233 and a third round pick in 2008.

Homer Simpson
11-17-2010, 12:03 PM
Via Max...
The Broncos drafted 17 players in 1st/2nd rounds from 2000-07. With the release of J.Moss, only one is left with the team (D.J. Williams)

Dedhed
11-17-2010, 12:08 PM
In a slightly ironic twist I tried to keep an eye on Moss during the last game, in the 4th quarter I watched him for several plays. The first play I noticed he had a good spin move and got pressure on Cassel who was able to get the ball out quickly.

Then followed 2 plays of him running directly into the tackle and he was completely manhandled.

On the 4th play which was a pass play Moss went wide on Albert and had a step, but for some reason instead of keeping on he tried to cut inside but ran right into Albert and was neutralized.

On the remaining plays of the 4th quarter I didn't see him do anything good, he just doesn't have the power to take on tackles and he seems reluctant to use speed. He did attempt a swim move but didn't get anywhere, the only move that had success was the spin move.
Moss completely lacks the awareness to make plays. I've watched him a lot as well, and he has the athletic ability to beat blockers, but when he does, he's almost never in a position to make a play. He's just beating his man to nowhere. I'd liken it to beating your man off the dribble in basketball, but not be moving towards the rim.

Ocassionally the play will run right into him, but he's clearly too absorbed in his maneuver to be able to pay attention to what's going on elsewhere. By the time he's beaten his man and looks around a little the play has moved on without him.

He's pretty much the antithesis of Doom, who has the crazy ability to beat his man to the spot on the field where he's in a perfect position to make a play.

Dedhed
11-17-2010, 12:09 PM
Via Max...
The Broncos drafted 17 players in 1st/2nd rounds from 2000-07. With the release of J.Moss, only one is left with the team (D.J. Williams)
And that's how you end up with a depleted roster in need of a complete overhaul folks.

broncofan2438
11-17-2010, 12:11 PM
Yea, Moss was just not cut out for the NFL. I feel like he was a dried up turd hanging off your butt hairs

crush17
11-17-2010, 12:16 PM
Via Max...
The Broncos drafted 17 players in 1st/2nd rounds from 2000-07. With the release of J.Moss, only one is left with the team (D.J. Williams)

Actually, not true. Marcus Thomas is still here and playing well.

DenverBroncosJM
11-17-2010, 12:17 PM
Well there goes the Special Teams player of the year. We need to find someone else who actually runs down the field looking to block in the back

tsiguy96
11-17-2010, 12:18 PM
Actually, not true. Marcus Thomas is still here and playing well.

4th rounder

baja
11-17-2010, 12:20 PM
Denver traded its own first round pick (#21) a third round pick (#86) and a fifth round pick (#198) for Jacksonville's 1st round pick (#17 overall).

Thanks OD - Expensive bust.

crush17
11-17-2010, 12:21 PM
4th rounder

ah.
missed that part.

Florida_Bronco
11-17-2010, 12:23 PM
I pretty much figured that this would happen when he couldn't seize the opportunity with Doom being gone. Too bad he didn't respond better to coaching like Thomas has.

Bigdawg26
11-17-2010, 12:24 PM
Ugh dude Marcus Thomas was a fourth round pick! But I think George Foster and Jarvis Moss both sucked pretty bad. It's like trying to decided who's the smartest kid in the slow class.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-17-2010, 12:24 PM
GOD. Finally.

Mile High Shack
11-17-2010, 12:25 PM
ding dong the Moss is dead

baja
11-17-2010, 12:26 PM
Via Max...
The Broncos drafted 17 players in 1st/2nd rounds from 2000-07. With the release of J.Moss, only one is left with the team (D.J. Williams)


That is one ugly statistic

If Pat was a "Guttless Drunk" it was for waiting so long to run Shanny the GM off.

Champagne Powder
11-17-2010, 12:27 PM
McDaniels throws Cutler, Hillis, Marshall and Scheffler out the door, but kept this turd for 25 games too many.

Keeping Moss through two training camp cut downs is a black eye on his talent evaluation.

Rohirrim
11-17-2010, 12:28 PM
You know I'm being sarcastic right?

I highly doubt Moss will be picked up by anyone, well maybe Washing ton. ;D

Ouch.

The phone is ringing.

Look at his measurables!

STFU, dimwit.

Buy a vowel.

baja
11-17-2010, 12:29 PM
Actually, not true. Marcus Thomas is still here and playing well.

First & second round picks

baja
11-17-2010, 12:31 PM
And that's how you end up with a depleted roster in need of a complete overhaul folks.


Word!



But but it's all about the wins, whine, whine, whine. - jhns

Kaylore
11-17-2010, 12:32 PM
Player 1:

57 career starts.
Part of a unit that blocked for over 2500 rushing yards
Returned compensation in the form of being traded.

Player 2:

1 career start in a gimmick game vs Indy.
0 accomplishments.
Returned 0 compensation.


I'm not saying Moss was better than Foster, but Foster didn't deserve to start for the better part of the last half of his career, and the first part he was never anything more than a below average right tackle. Shanny started him out of embarrassment for being unprepared in a draft. He would frequently leave bad picks on the roster that didn't deserve it out of pride.

Dedhed
11-17-2010, 12:34 PM
Keeping Moss through two training camp cut downs is a black eye on his talent evaluation.
No it's not. It's a black eye on Shanahan's and the Goodman's. McDaniels tried to get any return on a terrible investment.

HILife
11-17-2010, 12:50 PM
Egad that's worse than I remember.

Awful, just awful.

At least when we gave up 3 picks for Tebow we've already got several TDs out of him.

Keep in mind that a lot of those picks for Tebow weren't even Broncos picks. Denver traded back several times and picked up several picks.

Br0nc0Buster
11-17-2010, 12:53 PM
Keep in mind that a lot of those picks for Tebow weren't even Broncos picks. Denver traded back several times and picked up several picks.

the 4th was ours, the 2nd was from the Marshall trade, and the 3rd was from trading down like you mentioned

ColoradoDarin
11-17-2010, 12:56 PM
Keep in mind that a lot of those picks for Tebow weren't even Broncos picks. Denver traded back several times and picked up several picks.

Oh I know, we basically got DT and Tebow for #11, that was just for the contingent (smaller by the Tebow TD) of people who say "we gave up 3 picks for Tebow!!oneone!!"

crush17
11-17-2010, 01:05 PM
McDaniels throws Cutler, Hillis, Marshall and Scheffler out the door, but kept this turd for 25 games too many.

Keeping Moss through two training camp cut downs is a black eye on his talent evaluation.

lo effing l


dude, you have got to be joking me.

cmhargrove
11-17-2010, 01:06 PM
The only time I really saw Jarvis playing lately was on Special Teams. Surely Veikune will be a more active special teamer with an upside.

Yeah, long haired Polynesian, boo, skinny stick man.

baja
11-17-2010, 01:10 PM
the 4th was ours, the 2nd was from the Marshall trade, and the 3rd was from trading down like you mentioned

So you could make a case that Tebow was almost free.

Marshall was really only worth one #2 and we got that coming this year and the 3rd we got for trading down to take the player we wanted at his value spot. We got Tebow for a 4th - Nice!

ScottXray
11-17-2010, 01:15 PM
Denver traded its own first round pick (#21) a third round pick (#86) and a fifth round pick (#198) for Jacksonville's 1st round pick (#17 overall).

Man...what a waste of picks.

I guess we can OFFICIALLY say....BUST!....Worse than just a first round bust...a complete bust. Absolutely Nothing to redeem this pick.

Never really even got on the field.

Bye bye Jarvis....

Hogan11
11-17-2010, 01:20 PM
Gotta hand it to Moss, how he managed to last this long is a miracle.

Watch Shanahan pick him up Ha!

TheReverend
11-17-2010, 01:20 PM
I'm not saying Moss was better than Foster, but Foster didn't deserve to start for the better part of the last half of his career, and the first part he was never anything more than a below average right tackle. Shanny started him out of embarrassment for being unprepared in a draft. He would frequently leave bad picks on the roster that didn't deserve it out of pride.

Fully agree. George Foster was a subpar football player that became a flat out poor one after that Cinci debacle. Still, there's no way in hell from any point of view anyone could claim Jarvis was a better player.

snowspot66
11-17-2010, 01:21 PM
Via Max...
The Broncos drafted 17 players in 1st/2nd rounds from 2000-07. With the release of J.Moss, only one is left with the team (D.J. Williams)

That's atrocious. ****ing depressing.

baja
11-17-2010, 01:21 PM
This is going to be good Mojo for us
We are going to kick SDs asses

Old Dude
11-17-2010, 01:22 PM
There was actually a national sportstalk debate going on last March about the biggest single draft bust of the 2007 draft and it boiled down to Meachum for the Saints or Moss for the Broncos. Meachum edged out Moss at the time.

DenverBrit
11-17-2010, 01:23 PM
Bates drafts Moss and then 'gives' Warren to the Raiders.

Because Moss fits his scheme and Warren doesn't.

Shanny's talent evaluations, sadly, were matched by his DC choices.

Old Dude
11-17-2010, 01:26 PM
This is going to be good Mojo for us
We are going to kick SDs asses

So you are implying Jarvis was like an albatross?

baja
11-17-2010, 01:29 PM
So you are implying Jarvis was like an albatross?

Well he was the reason we shifted back to the 4 - 3 so we would not have to play him. That change contributed heavily to the Oakland shellacking & the loss in London. When you change your whole defense to keep a former first round pick on the bench I'd say yes to your question. ;D

Popps
11-17-2010, 01:42 PM
We should have done this after the 49ers game to make a statement. Still glad we did.

Nothing personal against Mr. Hustle-fly, but it's just been too long with no production.

Dedhed
11-17-2010, 01:46 PM
We should have done this after the 49ers game to make a statement. Still glad we did.

Nothing personal against Mr. Hustle-fly, but it's just been too long with no production.Would have been even better if we did it before the 49ers game. We'd be 4-5 right now riding a winning streak and right in the thick of the AFC West race.

Florida_Bronco
11-17-2010, 02:05 PM
There was actually a national sportstalk debate going on last March about the biggest single draft bust of the 2007 draft and it boiled down to Meachum for the Saints or Moss for the Broncos. Meachum edged out Moss at the time.

Meachem? Really? The dude had 700+ yards and 9 touchdowns last year. A disappointment yes, but far from a bust. They could have picked bigger busts, like JaMarcus Russell. ;)

orinjkrush
11-17-2010, 02:05 PM
i still scratch my head. moss seemed to be really trying. its not like he was Dale Carter or something. guess he lost all confidence and was playing and thinking too much. or something. i'd have tried him at pass catching TE or SS once before i cut him. ;)

Old Dude
11-17-2010, 02:11 PM
Hopefully, Veikune will have better luck here than in Cleveland (10 games, no tackles.)

Mangini drafted him as a conversion project - but apparently the Browns decided they don't have the time to wait for his development.

He's young. We'll see. But I wouldn't be shocked if he winds up in the week by week turnstile.

Champagne Powder
11-17-2010, 02:11 PM
No it's not. It's a black eye on Shanahan's and the Goodman's. McDaniels tried to get any return on a terrible investment.

That's a b.s. defense. It's a black eye on both regimes.

I don't think Moss' first round status should have played any part in his 1-1/2 year stay under McDaniels.

What's the rationale for jettisoning Alphonso Smith to Detroit after one year then?

tsiguy96
11-17-2010, 02:12 PM
That's a b.s. defense. It's a black eye on both regimes.

I don't think Moss' first round status should have played any part in his 1-1/2 year stay under McDaniels.

What's the rationale for jettisoning Alphonso Smith to Detroit after one year then?

because mcdaniels keeps true to his "best players stay" motto, and alphonso got beat out by 3 rookies.

Old Dude
11-17-2010, 02:15 PM
Meachem? Really? The dude had 700+ yards and 9 touchdowns last year. A disappointment yes, but far from a bust. They could have picked bigger busts, like JaMarcus Russell. ;)

Sorry, my boo-boo. That discussion was prior to last season. The dig against Meachum was that he'd shown up overweight, out of shape and dumber than anyone expected.

But you're right. He eventually got it together. And JaMarcus has got to be the biggest bust of that class by far.

misturanderson
11-17-2010, 02:46 PM
That's a b.s. defense. It's a black eye on both regimes.

I don't think Moss' first round status should have played any part in his 1-1/2 year stay under McDaniels.

What's the rationale for jettisoning Alphonso Smith to Detroit after one year then?

Because he had obvious replacements for Alphonso already on the roster (it was still a bad move), whereas we had no depth at rush OLB and it isn't an easy thing to just go out and find. If Doom hadn't gone on IR this year you can bet your sweet ass that Moss wouldn't have been on the team as long as he was.

supermanhr9
11-17-2010, 02:47 PM
You mean Rey "I'm a mediocre 2 down LB who laid out some PAC 10 kids in college so I got pumped up" Maualuga?

I'm quite happy not having that mediocrity on this team. James Laurinitis would've been nice if he didn't have DJ, but we do. Jasper Brinkley though? That would've been a nice late round pick up.

So let me get this straight,,, you'd rather have Alphonso Smith over Rey? Despite what Alphonso did for the Lions recently,,, he blows balls

broncocalijohn
11-17-2010, 02:52 PM
Bates drafts Moss and then 'gives' Warren to the Raiders.

Because Moss fits his scheme and Warren doesn't.

Shanny's talent evaluations, sadly, were matched by his DC choices.

god, i remember that and why it pains us that Moss didnt work out. Warren stepped up with the Raiders. Many guys left and we needed badly (Berry for one).

misturanderson
11-17-2010, 02:54 PM
So let me get this straight,,, you'd rather have Alphonso Smith over Rey? Despite what Alphonso did for the Lions recently,,, he blows balls

Yes, Alphonso Smith was a better prospect at a much harder to fill position than Rey. In hindsight Rey may have been a better pick (though he isn't anywhere near as good as you still seem to think that he is), but that is questionable at best and is only even in question because we traded him for peanuts.

~Crash~
11-17-2010, 03:02 PM
well I guess I get to eat some crow . I really thought he was going to do something this year . like everyone has said he is just to brittle . his hand got broke and he has been not all that good .

broncocalijohn
11-17-2010, 03:06 PM
Hopefully, Veikune will have better luck here than in Cleveland (10 games, no tackles.)

Mangini drafted him as a conversion project - but apparently the Browns decided they don't have the time to wait for his development.

He's young. We'll see. But I wouldn't be shocked if he winds up in the week by week turnstile.

Chad Mustard just said "HI!"

Old Dude
11-17-2010, 03:08 PM
The thing that confused me the most about the Alphonso Smith deal was this.

McD acknowledged that he didn't have an awful lot of time to prepare for his first draft. Okay. Fine. Under the circumstances, that's understandable.

But why then do you give up a first round pick in the next year's draft just so you can take an extra shot in the second round of a draft that you're not prepared for?

Never really made any sense to me.

Archer81
11-17-2010, 03:21 PM
Just thinking about d-line that denver has had for the last 9 or so years...where would we have been if we kept Berry, Heyward, Pryce and Warren?...

Almost makes me angry. Almost.

:Broncos:

KevinJames
11-17-2010, 03:26 PM
http://www.celebrations.com/img-upload/5/4/champagne%20bottle%20pop.jpg

THANK YOU FOR GETTING THIS BUM OUT OF HERE

I actually wanted us to give Veikune a shot I liked him coming out of college, I think he could be a nice situational pass rusher. :strong:

extralife
11-17-2010, 03:45 PM
best news all year

Dedhed
11-17-2010, 03:46 PM
That's a b.s. defense. It's a black eye on both regimes.

I don't think Moss' first round status should have played any part in his 1-1/2 year stay under McDaniels.That's as naive as it gets. Players who you've paid a ton of guaranteed money to always get special consideration.


What's the rationale for jettisoning Alphonso Smith to Detroit after one year then?
You know the difference between trading a player and releasing one right? In the former scenario you get compensation back in the form of a player or draft picks. In the latter you get NOTHING.

montrose
11-17-2010, 04:00 PM
Good bye Jarvis. Thanks for your 3.5 sacks in 3.5 years, teasing us with your talent in practices, stupidly blocking in the back on Eddie's return in London, calling into radio stations for interviews high and best of all quitting on the team in camp last year because your heart wasn't in it but returning to the team when you'd have to return your signing bonus. You join Marcus Nash, Willie Middlebrooks, George Foster as some of the other shi**eist draft picks of my lifetime. Hopefully Marcus Thomas follows you out the door shortly.

This is going to be good Mojo for us
We are going to kick SDs asses

I think so too, got a good feeling about this week - and the rest of the season.

SpiritGuy
11-17-2010, 04:08 PM
Sorry to be the bearer of bad (?) news but Veikune is Tongan not Samoan.

Polynesian Players drafted to the NFL 2009 Congratz to:

David Veikune - Tongan
Fili Moala - Tongan
Fenuki Tupou - Tongan
Paul Fanaika - Tongan
Fui Vakapuna - Tongan

Rey Maualuga - Samoan
Roy Miller - Samoan
Kaluka Maiava - Samoan
Al Afalava - Samoan

link (http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=42976&p=3&topicID=27746926&page=1)

Dedhed
11-17-2010, 04:20 PM
Just thinking about d-line that denver has had for the last 9 or so years...where would we have been if we kept Berry, Heyward, Pryce and Warren?...

Almost makes me angry. Almost.

:Broncos:

I agree except on Pryce. He was always more interested in making records (the music kind not the football kind) than he was in playing football. I loved Berry, Heyward was a nice all-around DL and Warren was perhaps the best DL in Denver in the 21st century under Shanny.

Homer Simpson
11-17-2010, 04:24 PM
This was a disaster pick for Shanahan, but hey, he made up for it a bit with Clady!

baja
11-17-2010, 04:29 PM
The thing that confused me the most about the Alphonso Smith deal was this.

McD acknowledged that he didn't have an awful lot of time to prepare for his first draft. Okay. Fine. Under the circumstances, that's understandable.

But why then do you give up a first round pick in the next year's draft just so you can take an extra shot in the second round of a draft that you're not prepared for?

Never really made any sense to me.

This has me stumped too. The reasons I can come up with is maybe they thought they were getting a sure fire exciting return man that would grow into a great corner but it was the return man part that made them pull the trigger. They knew they were going to do a complete rebuild so they took a shot at a guy that maybe could put some points on the board on Special Teams an help to bring some excitement to a rebuilding season.

Couple of other factors may have entered into the decision was maybe Nolan negotiated that pick for himself as an incentive to become the DC under an unproven HC. The other is it could have been financially imprudent to pay two high first round picks in 2010 going into the uncertainty of no labor agreement.

Rock Chalk
11-17-2010, 04:47 PM
By what retarded standard?

Dude, George Foster is one of the biggest busts ever. EVER.

Dude was a turnstile at RT and was drafted to play LT. He sucked so bad he almost got two different QBs in Denver killed and then almost cost the Lions their QB.

Foster played all of 9 games in his college career and Shanahan whiffed on this dude in the FIRST FREAKING ROUND.

Now you could argue that Foster actually played and started a lot and Moss did not and you'd be right but the talent we have in front of Moss is a hell of a lot more than the talent those teams had in front of Foster.

ScottXray
11-17-2010, 05:06 PM
Dude, George Foster is one of the biggest busts ever. EVER.

Dude was a turnstile at RT and was drafted to play LT. He sucked so bad he almost got two different QBs in Denver killed and then almost cost the Lions their QB.

Foster played all of 9 games in his college career and Shanahan whiffed on this dude in the FIRST FREAKING ROUND.

Now you could argue that Foster actually played and started a lot and Moss did not and you'd be right but the talent we have in front of Moss is a hell of a lot more than the talent those teams had in front of Foster.

Well, Foster sucked, and Moss does too. They were both 1st rd picks, but Shanny didn't trade UP to get Foster. Supposedly there was supposed to be a trade that got backed out of and Shanny took Foster afer he got stuck holding the bag and running out of time. It would have been better if he had just deferred and thought it through. And at least he ( Foster) got on the field, and was able to help in the run game, although he was a liability in the pass game. But BOTH these picks were grade A busts! And Moss had chances to start but got outplayed by everyone behind him, including PS players and numerous FA finds.

So the relative "bustness"of the picks is about the same. At least we got something for Foster when we got rid of him. I doubt anyone picks up Moss this year. He'll be in someones camp next year ( if there is a season) at league minimum, if he doesn't get arrested first.

Dedhed
11-17-2010, 05:22 PM
Dude, George Foster is one of the biggest busts ever. EVER.

Dude was a turnstile at RT and was drafted to play LT. He sucked so bad he almost got two different QBs in Denver killed and then almost cost the Lions their QB.So you're saying Foster was on the field then?

Foster played all of 9 games in his college career and Shanahan whiffed on this dude in the FIRST FREAKING ROUND. As opposed to the first freaking round where Shanahan selected Moss by trading 3 picks to move up and get him?

the talent we have in front of Moss is a hell of a lot more than the talent those teams had in front of Foster.


And by talent at DE you mean Patrice Majondo-Mwamba, Corey Jackson, a one-legged Courtney Brown, Ebenezer "Bust" Ekuban, John Engelberger, and Demetrin Veal?

gunns
11-17-2010, 06:03 PM
I agree except on Pryce. He was always more interested in making records (the music kind not the football kind) than he was in playing football. I loved Berry, Heyward was a nice all-around DL and Warren was perhaps the best DL in Denver in the 21st century under Shanny.

I will agree with you on Pryce. His early years he was good, his later years he had a good game here and one there. But your statement about Warren being the best DL in Denver in the 2000's is a sad, sad testament to how truly bad our DL has been in the 2000's.

baja
11-17-2010, 06:21 PM
I agree except on Pryce. He was always more interested in making records (the music kind not the football kind) than he was in playing football. I loved Berry, Heyward was a nice all-around DL and <b>Warren was perhaps the best DL in Denver in the 21st century under Shanny.

And to think he was shipped to Oakland of all places for a 4th round pick.

McDman
11-17-2010, 06:41 PM
Well, best of luck to Jarvis. Its gotta be pretty devastating to be fired from a job like that, especially this far into the season.

McDman
11-17-2010, 06:53 PM
Sorry to be the bearer of bad (?) news but Veikune is Tongan not Samoan.

Polynesian Players drafted to the NFL 2009 Congratz to:

David Veikune - Tongan
Fili Moala - Tongan
Fenuki Tupou - Tongan
Paul Fanaika - Tongan
Fui Vakapuna - Tongan

Rey Maualuga - Samoan
Roy Miller - Samoan
Kaluka Maiava - Samoan
Al Afalava - Samoan

link (http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=42976&p=3&topicID=27746926&page=1)

Noooo! I hate Tongans!

baja
11-17-2010, 07:11 PM
Well, best of luck to Jarvis. Its gotta be pretty devastating to be fired from a job like that, especially this far into the season.

He gets paid for the rest of the season for a job he was unable to preform. I don't feel sorry for him one bit. How many have had the opportunity he did?

ZONA
11-17-2010, 09:24 PM
FINALLY, this will be the last MOSS thread ever............... :strong: :strong:

NASurfer
11-17-2010, 09:52 PM
Noooo! I hate Tongans!
L0L. This is like finding out the Oakleys I bought for $20 off the street weren't the real thing. j/k

Bronco Yoda
11-18-2010, 02:32 AM
Love it!

Caveat Lector
11-18-2010, 02:57 AM
At least we got something for Foster when we got rid of him.

Let me see -

Denver got:
Dre Bly, 2007 sixth round pick (#176-Rufus Alexander)
Detroit got:
Tatum Bell, George Foster, undisclosed draft pick (2007 #158-Johnny Baldwin) trade with Lions

All Dre Bly did was cost us a truckload of money, and be a locker room cancer. As for Rufus Alexander Hilarious!

Rock Chalk
11-18-2010, 04:53 AM
So you're saying Foster was on the field then?

As opposed to the first freaking round where Shanahan selected Moss by trading 3 picks to move up and get him?




And by talent at DE you mean Patrice Majondo-Mwamba, Corey Jackson, a one-legged Courtney Brown, Ebenezer "Bust" Ekuban, John Engelberger, and Demetrin Veal?

You guys are missing the point.

In College, Moss was a great player. Where he was taken was about the area he was slotted to be taken by most draft experts. Foster on the other hand, played in 9 freaking games in college and he could have been had in the 4th or 5th round and he was taken what, 10th? How do you justify taking a guy that only played in 9 college games in the FIRST ROUND anywhere?

Moss was a bust, but foster was a MUCH bigger bust.

Now, you bring up some of the "talent" ahead of Moss but every single one of those guys at their position was better than anything we had at RT during that same time frame.

Shoemaker
11-18-2010, 05:10 AM
FINALLY, this will be the last MOSS thread ever............... :strong: :strong:

Well, unless Moss gets picked up by somebody else and suddenly remembers how to play football.

Then there will be a thread about him every week.

CEH
11-18-2010, 06:04 AM
You guys are missing the point.

In College, Moss was a great player. Where he was taken was about the area he was slotted to be taken by most draft experts. Foster on the other hand, played in 9 freaking games in college and he could have been had in the 4th or 5th round and he was taken what, 10th? How do you justify taking a guy that only played in 9 college games in the FIRST ROUND anywhere?

Moss was a bust, but foster was a MUCH bigger bust.

Now, you bring up some of the "talent" ahead of Moss but every single one of those guys at their position was better than anything we had at RT during that same time frame.

Tiis was the Shanahan draft debacle of '03 where he was inquired by Balt to trade their '04 1st and #45 for our #20 so Balt could draft Boller. Shanny tried to hold up Balt for more and NE jumped in and ended up with Wilfork in '04.

This was all on the Broncos FO for f**king up and over drafting a guy who would have been their at #43 or #45

As far as Moss again a draft debacle thinking Bates needed one of his 3 guys and Lewis had interest in Moss at 18 so Denver jumped up to grab the last on thier board. The Jason Taylor clone for the Bates defense.

jhns
11-18-2010, 06:39 AM
FINALLY, this will be the last MOSS thread ever............... :strong: :strong:

That is until he becomes great for some other team and everyone acts like they loved him.

TheReverend
11-18-2010, 06:47 AM
You guys are missing the point.

In College, Moss was a great player. Where he was taken was about the area he was slotted to be taken by most draft experts. Foster on the other hand, played in 9 freaking games in college and he could have been had in the 4th or 5th round and he was taken what, 10th? How do you justify taking a guy that only played in 9 college games in the FIRST ROUND anywhere?

Moss was a bust, but foster was a MUCH bigger bust.

Now, you bring up some of the "talent" ahead of Moss but every single one of those guys at their position was better than anything we had at RT during that same time frame.

Absolutely ridiculous and clearly you've put zero effort into this thought.

In 2005 our backup tackles were:

Cornell Green - Has gone on to start in 43 games since.

Cooper Carlisle (G/T swing) - Has started every game since.

Meanwhile, we have ZERO comparison because Moss has never beaten out ANYONE.

To compound that, when the injury gods tried to GIFT him a starting position, he was so god damn terrible they had to dig someone up off Detroits scrap heap AND start him with only 2 weeks of experience in the system.

Also, Denver didn't draft foster at 10.

But it's good that you put zero thought into your "argument".

Kaylore
11-18-2010, 07:03 AM
Absolutely ridiculous and clearly you've put zero effort into this thought.

In 2005 our backup tackles were:

Cornell Green - Has gone on to start in 43 games since.

Cooper Carlisle (G/T swing) - Has started every game since.

Meanwhile, we have ZERO comparison because Moss has never beaten out ANYONE.

To compound that, when the injury gods tried to GIFT him a starting position, he was so god damn terrible they had to dig someone up off Detroits scrap heap AND start him with only 2 weeks of experience in the system.


Foster didn't "Beat" those guys. Shanahan made him the starter in spite of their play. Your list of guys (you forgot Clabo who I felt played great in camp when he was here and was cut and is a stalwart on a very good Falcons team.) is more damning to me because it shows how embarrassing the pick was to Shanahan - so much so that he played Foster when better players were available simply because he was a first round pick.

And Hunter has been a nice surprise for us.

baja
11-18-2010, 07:06 AM
Foster didn't "Beat" those guys. Shanahan made him the starter in spite of their play. Your list of guys (you forgot Clabo who I felt played great in camp when he was here and was cut and is a stalwart on a very good Falcons team.) is more damning to me because it shows how embarrassing the pick was to Shanahan - so much so that he played Foster when better players were available simply because he was a first round pick.

And Hunter has been a nice surprise for us.

absolute this.

Old Dude
11-18-2010, 07:19 AM
That is until he becomes great for some other team and everyone acts like they loved him.


It could happen. Maybe not likely, but it's possible. He is an athlete, but too much of a "tweener" to fit into the scheme here. Wrong place, wrong time. Some of the attitude problems may be a matter of frustration and maturitry.

If his instincts were lacking, he'd have to depend heavily on coaching but maybe he got bounced around so much that he never found a niche. Arguably, the same thing happened to Haggan (though he certainly wasn't a 1st round pick) until he got here.

I wouldn't be shocked to see Moss catch on somewhere else and perform reasonably well.


(and that, folks, is what we call Old Dude's kiss of death)

baja
11-18-2010, 07:29 AM
I bet he would make one hell of a hand ball player.

HAT
11-18-2010, 07:40 AM
That is until he becomes great for some other team and everyone acts like they loved him.

You whine daily that 'everyone' bashes ex-players that Shanahan drafted and McD sent packing......Now you are whining about the 180 degree opposite.

Common denominator? You whining.

jhns
11-18-2010, 07:46 AM
You whine daily that 'everyone' bashes ex-players that Shanahan drafted and McD sent packing......Now you are whining about the 180 degree opposite.

Common denominator? You whining.

Stop getting all hot and bothered. It was a joke. Also, I only whine about players that I called good before they left. The joke is about guys like Smith, who no one liked but now they love. Or maybe Pryce, where everyone thought he wanted too much for what he was producing and now cry that it was a huge mistake to get rid of him.

Anyways, it wasn't a complaint. I just pointed out a fact.

TheReverend
11-18-2010, 07:50 AM
Foster didn't "Beat" those guys. Shanahan made him the starter in spite of their play. Your list of guys (you forgot Clabo who I felt played great in camp when he was here and was cut and is a stalwart on a very good Falcons team.) is more damning to me because it shows how embarrassing the pick was to Shanahan - so much so that he played Foster when better players were available simply because he was a first round pick.

And Hunter has been a nice surprise for us.

Then how bad is Moss that Shanahan couldn't even justify trying to hide his embarrassment by starting him over terrible players?

Kaylore
11-18-2010, 10:41 AM
Then how bad is Moss that Shanahan couldn't even justify trying to hide his embarrassment by starting him over terrible players?

This was a result of the old "he showed flashes" thing and then just when you thought he was doing something he'd get hurt.

Look, I'm not arguing who is the bigger bust. In my opinion Moss is worse because we moved up to get him. Then factor in that Crowder was cut in lieu of Moss and Crowder is still contributing on his team and it's clear Moss caused "the most damage" to the team's potential.

Having said that, I think you horribly overstated Foster's contributions to this team with circumstantial stats like "on a unit that rushed for eleventy billion yards" or whatever. Let's not dress this up. Foster sucked pretty bad.

bendog
11-18-2010, 10:58 AM
This is a little harsh on Harrell, imo. It's not really lack of effort or ability when your back and then knee get wrecked.

http://www.totalpackers.com/2010/07/21/justin-harrell-will-never-be-the-biggest-bust-in-the-2007-draft/

Shanny targeted Timmons, Harrell and Moss and moved up to where he'd get one of them. Moss was third choice. According to the ratings at the time, this wasn't crazy.

What's amazing about this draft (besides Jamarcus) is that of the top 7 rated dlinemen, Harrell is pretty much disabled, Gaines Adams is dead, another three including Moss are either out and out busts or borderline crappy players, and there's Okoye.

Obviously it was a year to trade down and seek value.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2007/draft/breakdowns/by_position/de.html

Beantown Bronco
11-18-2010, 11:41 AM
What's amazing about this draft (besides Jamarcus) is that of the top 7 rated dlinemen, Harrell is pretty much disabled, Gaines Adams is dead, another three including Moss are either out and out busts or borderline crappy players, and there's Okoye.

Pretty much the same for the 2003 draft and offensive tackles. People bag on the George Foster pick, but really there wasn't much else out there at the position. Jordan Gross was the pick of the litter, but he went at #8, way out of our reach at #20. The only other first rounder was Kwame Harris who sucked at least as bad as Foster. After that, Jonathan Stinchcomb was the only one in the entire draft who has made any impact in the NFL whatsoever. 2003 was a REALLY weak draft for OTs.

ScottXray
11-18-2010, 12:04 PM
Let me see -

Denver got:
Dre Bly, 2007 sixth round pick (#176-Rufus Alexander)
Detroit got:
Tatum Bell, George Foster, undisclosed draft pick (2007 #158-Johnny Baldwin) trade with Lions

All Dre Bly did was cost us a truckload of money, and be a locker room cancer. As for Rufus Alexander Hilarious!

Right ...I forgot about the rest of that deal....

so actually we PAID Detroit to take Foster....

bendog
11-18-2010, 01:26 PM
Pretty much the same for the 2003 draft and offensive tackles. People bag on the George Foster pick, but really there wasn't much else out there at the position. Jordan Gross was the pick of the litter, but he went at #8, way out of our reach at #20. The only other first rounder was Kwame Harris who sucked at least as bad as Foster. After that, Jonathan Stinchcomb was the only one in the entire draft who has made any impact in the NFL whatsoever. 2003 was a REALLY weak draft for OTs.

Steinbach, Hunter, Bridges and Pashos are all around, I think. Shanny was looking for a LT. First time I saw Foster's duck walk, I thought ... not a left tackle. Guy played 6 years in the NFL. That's not a bust no matter what round he's taken in, but he wasn't a LT. Tyson Clabo? Not a LT either. Since Den sent him to europe, he had to be cut or put on an active squad, and he spent a year in Atl on the practice squad.

What I was trying to say is this:

03 draft seems to me to be about drafting for a need rather than trying to find a sweet spot in the draft where there is projected talent, and get as many picks as possible in that pick range of the draft. If the need was oline, then imo denver could have tried to trade down to get an extra pick later and still picked a guy with about as much chance to be a player. But Den may have tried.

07 draft. I didn't like Moss, but who the hell am I to know he's better or not better than Anthony Spencer or Quentin Moses? None of us are. There were three guys slotted before 20 in a SUPPOSEDLY deep defensive line/linebacker draft. Shanny moved up as far as he could to get in that group. The only logical way to criticize that is to say that you never draft dline/olinebacker to move up to pick in a range of projected athletes. Even Jimmy Johnson and Parcells who love to stockpile picks will jump on a blue chipper. The fact of that draft is that an entire crop of guys either coincidentally imploded in the extreme, or the entire league overrated them.

AND NOTHING HERE SAys McDaniels is better or worse, but it woud be similar to criticizing for, or not for, taking Dez Bryant over Thomas. You can't fairly do that in retrospect. You can FAIRLY criticize not maximizing the value of a pick. The other fair cricism would be if an organization proves totally hapless in drafting at all. Matt Millen comes to mind.

Beantown Bronco
11-18-2010, 01:40 PM
Steinbach, Hunter, Bridges and Pashos are all around, I think.

I said impact tackles.

Steinbach is a guard.
Hunter, Bridges and Pashos = journeymen who aren't even starting or only are because of injuries

bendog
11-18-2010, 02:06 PM
My only disagreement with what you said, assuming I understood, is that Shanny got a journeyman but paid more than other teams. Add in Stinchcomb too.

Somewhere between the 03 and 07 drafts, shanny changed his philosophy or got religion or whatever, and instead of glomming in on one guy, he started playing the law of averages, which imo is the only way to go .... unless you're looking at someone who you think is a franchise type.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2005/draft/teams/broncos.html

a well managed draft. There were a lot of dbs projected in the 2nd and 3rd, so shanny maximized his picks therer, and played the law of averages. And got two players. (yeah he blew a 3 on a running back, and he also hit on TD, GAry, Anderson ....)

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2006/draft/teams/broncos.html

another well managed draft. There were three qb's projected in the first. Fisher in Tenn agreed there wasn't much seperation between Young and Lambchop, so Shanny grabbed first round talent. Then he maximized his shots in the 110-140 range where there were propects, and got two more players.

That's just a whole different approach than the earlier drafts where he'd fall in love with a guy and say I can coach him better - middlebrooks, foster, lelie. It had it's moments like with taking Sonic, but somewhere along the line shanny started playing averages, and he got more players that way. In 09 there were something like 6or7 Ot's in the first round. He didn't mess around but just took the second one who was either the 2nd or 3rd on most boards.

Drek
11-18-2010, 02:13 PM
This is a little harsh on Harrell, imo. It's not really lack of effort or ability when your back and then knee get wrecked.

http://www.totalpackers.com/2010/07/21/justin-harrell-will-never-be-the-biggest-bust-in-the-2007-draft/

Shanny targeted Timmons, Harrell and Moss and moved up to where he'd get one of them. Moss was third choice. According to the ratings at the time, this wasn't crazy.

What's amazing about this draft (besides Jamarcus) is that of the top 7 rated dlinemen, Harrell is pretty much disabled, Gaines Adams is dead, another three including Moss are either out and out busts or borderline crappy players, and there's Okoye.

Obviously it was a year to trade down and seek value.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2007/draft/breakdowns/by_position/de.html

Or instead of forcing DJ Williams inside to a 4-3 MLB role where he'd likely have growing pains we could've drafted Jon Beason and had two stud LBs teamed up to work in Bates' defense that funnels action to the WOLB and MLB.

Crazy talk, I know.

TheReverend
11-18-2010, 02:53 PM
Or instead of forcing DJ Williams inside to a 4-3 MLB role where he'd likely have growing pains we could've drafted Jon Beason and had two stud LBs teamed up to work in Bates' defense that funnels action to the WOLB and MLB.

Crazy talk, I know.

Man that would've been nice, wouldn't it?

Drek
11-18-2010, 03:17 PM
Man that would've been nice, wouldn't it?

In some ways. I'm not sure if this board could've handled the sheer amount of man love SoCal would have felt towards our LBs then however.

TheReverend
11-18-2010, 03:23 PM
In some ways. I'm not sure if this board could've handled the sheer amount of man love SoCal would have felt towards our LBs then however.

I doubt we would've missed the play offs in any seasons since that day if they would've taken him.

Killericon
11-18-2010, 03:27 PM
I doubt we would've missed the play offs in any seasons since that day if they would've taken him.

I was shouted down for falling for Workout Warriors, but I maintain that if Shanny had somehow pulled off drafting either Bunkley or Okoye, he'd still be here.

Kaylore
11-18-2010, 03:43 PM
Hmmmm. Reading this page makes me think the beginning of the end for Shanny was re-signing Ian Mold.

Popps
11-18-2010, 03:49 PM
Foster sucked pretty bad.

Then the Raiders grab Asomugha 11 picks later.

Ugh.

Popps
11-18-2010, 03:50 PM
Hmmmm. Reading this page makes me think the beginning of the end for Shanny was re-signing Ian Mold.

Beg to differ....

http://broncotalk.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/bobslowik.jpg

Kaylore
11-18-2010, 04:23 PM
Slowik was his antichrist, but the Ian Gold debacle may have started the Shanahan downfall.

2KBack
11-18-2010, 04:32 PM
I honestly felt the very first time I started to see cracks in the Shanahan plans was when he signed Dale Carter. I still loved the guy for many more years (until the Cutler draft), but that was the fist day that gave me pause.

WolfpackGuy
11-18-2010, 04:36 PM
Looking back, when he tried to become the Ravens after the 2000 season was the beginning of the end to me.

Shanahan should've stuck with what he knew, building a good offense.

Too bad for him it took him several years and wasted draft picks/free agents to get back to his roots.

Drek
11-18-2010, 04:48 PM
Hmmmm. Reading this page makes me think the beginning of the end for Shanny was re-signing Ian Mold.

I've always thought that. It was the first definitive statement that he didn't just want to win, he wanted to win with his guys and they'd always get the benefit of the doubt.

gyldenlove
11-18-2010, 05:01 PM
Slowik was his antichrist, but the Ian Gold debacle may have started the Shanahan downfall.

I believe Shanahans hubris was firing Larry Coyer. Everything after that was nemesis.

Coyer is by no means the best DC in the league, nor was he ever, but he was good enough and managed to get by until the defense was so utterly devoid of talent no scheme could save it. We went from having Bert Berry, Reggie Hayward and Trevor Pryce at DL in 2003 when Coyer arrived to having Kenard Lang, Ekuban, Warren and Michael Myers (not the commedian nor the serial killer) in 2006 the last year he was here. Despite adding Lynch, Champ Bailey and DJ Williams in those years we could not overcome the complete destruction of our defensive front and ever since we have struggled in that area.

mhgaffney
11-18-2010, 06:29 PM
I agree except on Pryce. He was always more interested in making records (the music kind not the football kind) than he was in playing football. I loved Berry, Heyward was a nice all-around DL and Warren was perhaps the best DL in Denver in the 21st century under Shanny.

Pryce could play.

I remember one game -- where he muscled his way around the end -- sacked the QB -- I forget the team - causing a fumble-- then recovered it for Denver.

In short -- Pryce was a one man wrecking crew. I guess Shanny decided he was too expensive to keep.

Dedhed
11-18-2010, 07:25 PM
Pryce could play.

I remember one game -- where he muscled his way around the end -- sacked the QB -- I forget the team - causing a fumble-- then recovered it for Denver.

In short -- Pryce was a one man wrecking crew. I guess Shanny decided he was too expensive to keep.

That's a single example from a single game. It would take far more than that to convince me that having kept him around would have been a better idea than letting him walk.

He had some moments early in his career, but resigning him would have been a mistake.

strafen
11-18-2010, 08:32 PM
I believe Shanahans hubris was firing Larry Coyer. Everything after that was nemesis.

Coyer is by no means the best DC in the league, nor was he ever, but he was good enough and managed to get by until the defense was so utterly devoid of talent no scheme could save it. We went from having Bert Berry, Reggie Hayward and Trevor Pryce at DL in 2003 when Coyer arrived to having Kenard Lang, Ekuban, Warren and Michael Myers (not the commedian nor the serial killer) in 2006 the last year he was here. Despite adding Lynch, Champ Bailey and DJ Williams in those years we could not overcome the complete destruction of our defensive front and ever since we have struggled in that area.

Great post!
Berry, Hayward and Pryce were a formidable trio.
It bugs me when I think about what difference that would have made had they played together for a few years longer...

Cito Pelon
11-19-2010, 01:14 AM
I believe Shanahans hubris was firing Larry Coyer. Everything after that was nemesis.

Coyer is by no means the best DC in the league, nor was he ever, but he was good enough and managed to get by until the defense was so utterly devoid of talent no scheme could save it. We went from having Bert Berry, Reggie Hayward and Trevor Pryce at DL in 2003 when Coyer arrived to having Kenard Lang, Ekuban, Warren and Michael Myers (not the commedian nor the serial killer) in 2006 the last year he was here. Despite adding Lynch, Champ Bailey and DJ Williams in those years we could not overcome the complete destruction of our defensive front and ever since we have struggled in that area.

This has been a good thread. People have long memories on the Mane, and actually have a decent command of details.

Jeez, it's been a hard slog in the 2000's to build the D up, no? And it STILL isn't built up. Constant turnover in DC's, along the DL, and quite a bit in the secondary, and I still don't see the light at the end of the tunnel.

The team in the 2000's has devoted a lot of attention in draft and FA to the D, but it looks to me like there is still quite a bit of attention needed.

Anyway, I'm gonna change my Adopt-a-Bronco to Veikune and hope it isn't the kiss of death. Wish me and Veikune luck. :sunshine:

16slayer24
11-19-2010, 01:51 AM
did shanny ver build a am??? in the draft he got lucky with TD otherwise what did he ever build???

Cito Pelon
11-19-2010, 03:18 AM
Well, Shanny never built the team once the HOF'rs he inherited were gone.

Caveat Lector
11-19-2010, 03:30 AM
Well, Shanny never built the team once the HOF'rs he inherited were gone.

You could say the 2005 Championship team was built by Shanny. Admittedly most of the key players were traded/free agents; but he still built it. He already had Wilson, but solidified with guys like Lynch and Champ. He also made decent enough players out of Plummer, Taters, and Mike A. You have to give credit where its due...

Cito Pelon
11-19-2010, 03:56 AM
You could say the 2005 Championship team was built by Shanny. Admittedly most of the key players were traded/free agents; but he still built it. He already had Wilson, but solidified with guys like Lynch and Champ. He also made decent enough players out of Plummer, Taters, and Mike A. You have to give credit where its due...

Sure, I'll give Shanny credit for that. The caveat, Lector, ;) is that what made that season in 2005 was Coyer helping Shanny make a +22 turnover differential, despite the personnel Coyer had to deal with.

And Shanny fired Coyer after that Div Title winning year, brought in Jim Bates who was out of the NFL in 2005, and proceeded to draft Jarvis Moss as the cornerstone.

Caveat Lector
11-19-2010, 04:19 AM
Sure, I'll give Shanny credit for that. The caveat, Lector, ;) is that what made that season in 2005 was Coyer helping Shanny make a +22 turnover differential, despite the personnel Coyer had to deal with.

And Shanny fired Coyer after that Div Title winning year, brought in Jim Bates who was out of the NFL in 2005, and proceeded to draft Jarvis Moss as the cornerstone.

I think what contriubted most to the +22 turnover differential was the ~2500 yards we gained on the ground. We were running it so well Plummer didn't have to take any risks and hence only threw 7-8 interceptions from memory. '05 was also proably Champ's best year in Denver IMO. He's been solid, but he's also been given a free pass for a lot of crappy games...

fontaine
11-19-2010, 04:55 AM
Yes the Moss pick absolutely sucked.

But I would STILL rather the team try and pick up front 7 players in the first two rounds than going through the next 7 years picking through the bargain basement nobodies that end up doing nothing like Ekuban, Courtney Brown, Raylee Johnson, Sam Adams, Koutivades, Nate Webster, Clint Mitchell, Aaron Hunt, Luther Ellis, Engelberger, Pope, Lekevin Smith, Jarvis Green, etc etc.

Robert Ayers was a lot like the Moss pick. Most of it based on potential and a two year project at least.

Besides, we'll end this Moss saga and heal the wounds by going out next year and signing Kamerion Wimbley.

Drek
11-19-2010, 07:21 AM
Yes the Moss pick absolutely sucked.

But I would STILL rather the team try and pick up front 7 players in the first two rounds than going through the next 7 years picking through the bargain basement nobodies that end up doing nothing like Ekuban, Courtney Brown, Raylee Johnson, Sam Adams, Koutivades, Nate Webster, Clint Mitchell, Aaron Hunt, Luther Ellis, Engelberger, Pope, Lekevin Smith, Jarvis Green, etc etc.

Robert Ayers was a lot like the Moss pick. Most of it based on potential and a two year project at least.

Besides, we'll end this Moss saga and heal the wounds by going out next year and signing Kamerion Wimbley.

Except that prior to breaking his foot Ayers, in his second year, was playing like arguably our best, most consistent player in the front seven.

WolfpackGuy
11-19-2010, 07:39 AM
I think what contriubted most to the +22 turnover differential was the ~2500 yards we gained on the ground. We were running it so well Plummer didn't have to take any risks and hence only threw 7-8 interceptions from memory. '05 was also proably Champ's best year in Denver IMO. He's been solid, but he's also been given a free pass for a lot of crappy games...

Under Coyer, they never attacked and brought pressure like they did in the 2005 season.

Drunk Monkey
11-19-2010, 10:39 AM
Moss just cleared waivers. I am sure you are all just as shocked as I am.

fontaine
11-19-2010, 01:58 PM
Except that prior to breaking his foot Ayers, in his second year, was playing like arguably our best, most consistent player in the front seven.

I'm not criticizing Ayers this year, just pointing out both were potential/project picks when they were drafted.

Drek
11-19-2010, 03:39 PM
I'm not criticizing Ayers this year, just pointing out both were potential/project picks when they were drafted.

I was just pointing out that you said they were viewed as guys who would take several years to develop, but Ayers was paying off at the start of his second year.

bowtown
11-19-2010, 03:45 PM
I'm not criticizing Ayers this year, just pointing out both were potential/project picks when they were drafted.

I hate it when people refer to draft picks as "projects." Almost every pick is a potential/project pick. The percentage of players that come into the league and significantly contribute in their first year is tiny. The idea that there are tons of guys out there that are NFL ready the day they are drafted, but somehow teams are just passing them up to take a shot on projects is absurd, especially after you get out of the top 5 picks.

TonyR
01-12-2011, 02:12 PM
Saw this in an article about the Raiders FA situation and had to pass it along:

Jarvis Moss: May have shown enough as a pass rusher in season finale to get another look at a reasonable price.

http://www.ibabuzz.com/oaklandraiders/2011/01/11/the-raiders-and-free-agency/

bendog
01-12-2011, 02:16 PM
I hate it when people refer to draft picks as "projects." Almost every pick is a potential/project pick. The percentage of players that come into the league and significantly contribute in their first year is tiny. The idea that there are tons of guys out there that are NFL ready the day they are drafted, but somehow teams are just passing them up to take a shot on projects is absurd, especially after you get out of the top 5 picks.

Ayers WAS a project because Den changed his position.

gyldenlove
01-12-2011, 02:19 PM
Saw this in an article about the Raiders FA situation and had to pass it along:

Jarvis Moss: May have shown enough as a pass rusher in season finale to get another look at a reasonable price.

http://www.ibabuzz.com/oaklandraiders/2011/01/11/the-raiders-and-free-agency/

He always has that one performance to save his ass, anyone remember the last preseason game in 09?

oubronco
01-12-2011, 02:19 PM
Ayers WAS a project because Den changed his position.

And he still is

bendog
01-12-2011, 02:23 PM
Sure, I'll give Shanny credit for that. The caveat, Lector, ;) is that what made that season in 2005 was Coyer helping Shanny make a +22 turnover differential, despite the personnel Coyer had to deal with.

And Shanny fired Coyer after that Div Title winning year, brought in Jim Bates who was out of the NFL in 2005, and proceeded to draft Jarvis Moss as the cornerstone.

Al Wilson, DJ, Ian Gold (who was brought back) poor Coyer. Never got shanny's support.

champ, DW, Foxworth, Lynch

courtney brown, big money, Pryce

Damn that shanny! (stomping foot)

gyldenlove
01-12-2011, 02:24 PM
I hate it when people refer to draft picks as "projects." Almost every pick is a potential/project pick. The percentage of players that come into the league and significantly contribute in their first year is tiny. The idea that there are tons of guys out there that are NFL ready the day they are drafted, but somehow teams are just passing them up to take a shot on projects is absurd, especially after you get out of the top 5 picks.

Every player is a project. Look at Robert Gallery, extremely highly touted, presumed to be NFL ready and it took him 5 years to even play reasonably and that was only after he had switched position twice.

It is just that some players manage to live up to the expectations while others fail. Adrian Peterson wasn't thought of as a project and he came right in and did well, on the other hand a year later Darren Mcfadden was certainly not a project and was commonly compared to Peterson but he has only produced anything this year.

I think when players are labeled projects it is really a nice way of saying they are stupid. Most players who are considered projects lack technique and tactical thinking, and have gotten by largely on physical prowess, in the pros that is often not enough (unless your name is Braylon Edwards), so instead of outright saying these kids are idiots, they are called projects - that way the draft expert can wash his hands when a player who was highly touted fails to show up, like Jarvis Moss.

HILife
01-12-2011, 02:38 PM
Again?1!:

EDIT: Oh wait, this thread was bumped.