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lostknight
11-15-2010, 01:36 PM
I went back and frame-by-framed some of the rushing plays. Most of them were power-blocks, a few zone blocking plays and a few pulling guard schemes. The ZBS plays where the least effective. This statement is going to get me crucified, but I don't think this line has the speed any more to really pull off ZBS at this point. They excelled in the power-blocking yesterday, and Kupes actually may be the biggest improvement - he was wheeling around constantly in the guard schemes, and he was getting great push all day long. Beadles was also effective.

Moreno definitely gets winded easily, but was hitting gaps with authority in the first half (not so much the second). Ball looked decent on his one play. Buckhalter meh.

Larsen's got great vision. He earned himself a lot more playing time. It's a shame that it's taken this long to get him his first receiving TD. He has decent hands. His run had to alleviate at least some of the pressure, after all he is the guy we kept when we got rid of Hillis.

They used Quinn and Gronkowski a couple of times as a blocking TE, and it didn't appear to work real well. The only significant run loses occurred on these plays - one was power blocking (with Gron) and one was ZBS (with Quinn). In addition a guard play - with tebow in at QB, failed when Harris was beat in the same series.

10 teams average 29 carries a game. None have a loosing record, eight are in first place. We need to keep the running game going.

dbfan21
11-15-2010, 01:55 PM
Nice breakdown, thanks! That last tidbit about first place teams and their commitment to the run is interesting.

TonyR
11-15-2010, 02:19 PM
This statement is going to get me crucified, but...

Just curious why you think this statement would be controversial? This team intentionally went away from ZBS and went out and got personnel to go power. Your statement supports this. Why should anyone be crucified for saying as much, or am I misunderstanding?

zdoor
11-15-2010, 02:50 PM
I think Moreno is getting winded because he isn't really in playing shape because of injuries. I doubt it is a long term issue. If he can stay healthy he should get his wind quickly...

snowspot66
11-15-2010, 03:17 PM
I went back and frame-by-framed some of the rushing plays. Most of them were power-blocks, a few zone blocking plays and a few pulling guard schemes. The ZBS plays where the least effective. This statement is going to get me crucified, but I don't think this line has the speed any more to really pull off ZBS at this point. They excelled in the power-blocking yesterday, and Kupes actually may be the biggest improvement - he was wheeling around constantly in the guard schemes, and he was getting great push all day long. Beadles was also effective.

Moreno definitely gets winded easily, but was hitting gaps with authority in the first half (not so much the second). Ball looked decent on his one play. Buckhalter meh.

Larsen's got great vision. He earned himself a lot more playing time. It's a shame that it's taken this long to get him his first receiving TD. He has decent hands. His run had to alleviate at least some of the pressure, after all he is the guy we kept when we got rid of Hillis.

They used Quinn and Gronkowski a couple of times as a blocking TE, and it didn't appear to work real well. The only significant run loses occurred on these plays - one was power blocking (with Gron) and one was ZBS (with Quinn). In addition a guard play - with tebow in at QB, failed when Harris was beat in the same series.

10 teams average 29 carries a game. None have a loosing record, eight are in first place. We need to keep the running game going.

While I have no argument we need a better running game (at least average) I think the cause/effect on this statement is actually backwards. The teams that win get the lead and the running attempts pile up after that. I think there are other more valuable and telling rushing stats than attempts per game. If we get our YPC up to a reasonable level again our offense will really start clicking.

Popps
11-15-2010, 03:33 PM
I think Moreno is getting winded because he isn't really in playing shape because of injuries. I doubt it is a long term issue. If he can stay healthy he should get his wind quickly...

Agree, but we absolutely need to groom someone to share carries. It's the way of the modern NFL. Plus, if he goes down... better we have someone who is familiar.

Agree on Larsen looking good. I know McDaniels loves him, but he hasn't been able to stay healthy. I hope he can, because I think he could be a great short-yardage, change-of-pace guy.

Still wish we had a speedy back-up, but maybe next year.

Yesterday showed without a doubt that our issue has been a lack of blocking, not a lack of Hillis.

lostknight
11-15-2010, 03:42 PM
Agree, but we absolutely need to groom someone to share carries. It's the way of the modern NFL. Plus, if he goes down... better we have someone who is familiar.

Agree on Larsen looking good. I know McDaniels loves him, but he hasn't been able to stay healthy. I hope he can, because I think he could be a great short-yardage, change-of-pace guy.

Still wish we had a speedy back-up, but maybe next year.


Moreno is kind of trapped in no-mans land. He doesn't have the speed to survive the tackles, and doesn't have the bulk to run through them.


Yesterday showed without a doubt that our issue has been a lack of blocking, not a lack of Hillis.

Given that Hillis is a strong entrant into the NFL MVP contest right now, I think this statement is a bit premature and self-serving, especially given that you yourself note above how badly we need a change of pace guy. A bruiser who also happens to have "the best hands I have ever seen" would have been perfect here.

I agree with the need for more speed. Tebow's lighting it up by running around the tackles. Having a RB with similar speed would be great.

Bronco Boy
11-15-2010, 03:42 PM
While I have no argument we need a better running game (at least average) I think the cause/effect on this statement is actually backwards. The teams that win get the lead and the running attempts pile up after that. I think there are other more valuable and telling rushing stats than attempts per game. If we get our YPC up to a reasonable level again our offense will really start clicking.

Exactly. You run when you win, not the other way around.

Dedhed
11-15-2010, 03:44 PM
I think Moreno is getting winded because he isn't really in playing shape because of injuries. I doubt it is a long term issue. If he can stay healthy he should get his wind quickly...

I think it has a little to do with Moreno's injuries, but I also think that you can't get in game shape with the limited number of carries he's had.

It's impossible to simulate the intensity of a game in practice, and Moreno hasn't been able to run himself into game shape because we've been so quick to abandon the running game.

baja
11-15-2010, 03:44 PM
Moreno is kind of trapped in no-mans land. He doesn't have the speed to survive the tackles, and doesn't have the bulk to run through them.



<b>Given that Hillis is a strong entrant into the NFL MVP contest right now,</b> I think this statement is a bit premature and self-serving, especially given that you yourself note above how badly we need a change of pace guy. A bruiser who also happens to have "the best hands I have ever seen" would have been perfect here.

I agree with the need for more speed. Tebow's lighting it up by running around the tackles. Having a RB with similar speed would be great.

Where do you get this shiit?

ColoradoDarin
11-15-2010, 03:50 PM
We need to draft a speed back (Jamaal Charles type) for a change up to take 6-9 carries a game. Probably sometime in the 3-4 rounds. Buck has been looking old this year.

Dedhed
11-15-2010, 03:51 PM
Given that Hillis is a strong entrant into the NFL MVP contest right now, I think this statement is a bit premature and self-serving.

Speaking of premature and self-serving statements.

Calling Hillis an MVP candidate is a stroll down hyperbole lane. And if you're going to throw candidates into the ring from 3-6 teams, which I wouldn't do, there are two Broncos who would be well ahead of Hillis in Brandon Lloyd and Orton.

lostknight
11-15-2010, 03:52 PM
Where do you get this shiit?

ESPN (in particular, the fantasy issues), SI (note last weeks magazine) and NFL.com.

In other words, a reality in which just because Josh McDaniels says that a player is ****, doesn't make him so.

lostknight
11-15-2010, 03:53 PM
We need to draft a speed back (Jamaal Charles type) for a change up to take 6-9 carries a game. Probably sometime in the 3-4 rounds. Buck has been looking old this year.

Buck's hardly a speed back. It's hard to come up with anyone who falls into that category since Tatum (pre-Cell phone days).

Br0nc0Buster
11-15-2010, 03:55 PM
We need to draft a speed back (Jamaal Charles type) for a change up to take 6-9 carries a game. Probably sometime in the 3-4 rounds. Buck has been looking old this year.

oh hai!
<a href="http://photobucket.com/images/noel%20devine" target="_blank"><img src="http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u47/jarebear23/devine.jpg" border="0" alt="Noel Devine Pictures, Images and Photos"/></a>

Broncoman13
11-15-2010, 04:14 PM
oh hai!
<a href="http://photobucket.com/images/noel%20devine" target="_blank"><img src="http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u47/jarebear23/devine.jpg" border="0" alt="Noel Devine Pictures, Images and Photos"/></a>

I've been calling Noel's name for a while now... would be the perfect change of pace guy and also could work in a few plays at receiver/KR/PR as well. Think of a smaller Percy Harvin or very similar to Dexter McCluster, though faster than either. The one thing that scares me about Devine is the fact that he is very similar to Trindan Holiday size wise and Holiday didn't last long for the Texans. Divine may be different b/c despite his smallish stature he is usually one of the strongest guys on the field... not pound for pound strongest, physically the strongest!

I am sure Req could clue us in on a few of the other "speedy" backs in college football that we could look at with one of our 2nd round picks. 2nd round RB may not be a popular choice given our needs at DL, LB, Safety, CB, and TE... but a guy that can go the distance at any point and time is a valuable component to any team. People get caught up in Reggie Bush's numbers and think he doesn't impact games. Watch how much of a difference he makes when he returns to the Saints' lineup. Speaking of Reggie Bush, he will be a free agent won't he? I'd throw money his way in a heart beat. 4 years $40m with $$$ guaranteed... I'd do that before I gave an aging Champ Bailey $10-12m per year and I love Champ Bailey, I'm just looking at this from a long term perspective. Champ goes down to $7-8m per season, no problem. But in this day and age there aren't very many shut down CBs. Shut down defenses start up front and end with QBs that have less than 4 seconds to throw the ball!

baja
11-15-2010, 04:21 PM
I've been calling Noel's name for a while now... would be the perfect change of pace guy and also could work in a few plays at receiver/KR/PR as well. Think of a smaller Percy Harvin or very similar to Dexter McCluster, though faster than either. The one thing that scares me about Devine is the fact that he is very similar to Trindan Holiday size wise and Holiday didn't last long for the Texans. Divine may be different b/c despite his smallish stature he is usually one of the strongest guys on the field... not pound for pound strongest, physically the strongest!

I am sure Req could clue us in on a few of the other "speedy" backs in college football that we could look at with one of our 2nd round picks. 2nd round RB may not be a popular choice given our needs at DL, LB, Safety, CB, and TE... but a guy that can go the distance at any point and time is a valuable component to any team. People get caught up in Reggie Bush's numbers and think he doesn't impact games. Watch how much of a difference he makes when he returns to the Saints' lineup. Speaking of Reggie Bush, he will be a free agent won't he? I'd throw money his way in a heart beat. 4 years $40m with $$$ guaranteed... I'd do that before I gave an aging Champ Bailey $10-12m per year and I love Champ Bailey, I'm just looking at this from a long term perspective. Champ goes down to $7-8m per season, no problem. But in this day and age there aren't very many shut down CBs. Shut down defenses start up front and end with QBs that have less than 4 seconds to throw the ball!

If the NFL teams would take a bone density test and bone weight vs body weight measurement along with flexibility tests they would find who is durable and who is injury prone before they drafted the player.

Broncoman13
11-15-2010, 04:46 PM
If the NFL teams would take a bone density test and bone weight vs body weight measurement along with flexibility tests they would find who is durable and who is injury prone before they drafted the player.

Would certainly help but I can remember a few special players that had horrible flexibility. Joey Galloway never could touch his toes!!! He is the one that comes to mind and he has played in the NFL for what 15 years (or so it seems).

But I do agree with your point. If you're going to give out millions of dollars it sure would be nice to know if they're going to end up on the shelf most of the time or not before you make that investment.

What in my post made you go this direction? The talk about Knowshon? I'm curious about his conditioning. Dude is always gassed and it makes me wonder if he isn't treating his body right. Could it be that easy? Fix what you're putting into your body and your body will fix what's been getting hurt?

ZONA
11-16-2010, 01:51 AM
Perhaps Moreno was a bit winded because he was actually getting 8 and 9 yards on his carries instead of 2. Good to finally see some much larger running lanes out there. Moreno had a great game and deserves some credit. He ran with vision, power and held onto the ball. Great effort at the endzone as well. Hopefully we can build on this.

The MVPlaya
11-16-2010, 02:13 AM
I went back and frame-by-framed some of the rushing plays. Most of them were power-blocks, a few zone blocking plays and a few pulling guard schemes. The ZBS plays where the least effective. This statement is going to get me crucified, but I don't think this line has the speed any more to really pull off ZBS at this point. They excelled in the power-blocking yesterday, and Kupes actually may be the biggest improvement - he was wheeling around constantly in the guard schemes, and he was getting great push all day long. Beadles was also effective.

Moreno definitely gets winded easily, but was hitting gaps with authority in the first half (not so much the second). Ball looked decent on his one play. Buckhalter meh.

Larsen's got great vision. He earned himself a lot more playing time. It's a shame that it's taken this long to get him his first receiving TD. He has decent hands. His run had to alleviate at least some of the pressure, after all he is the guy we kept when we got rid of Hillis.

They used Quinn and Gronkowski a couple of times as a blocking TE, and it didn't appear to work real well. The only significant run loses occurred on these plays - one was power blocking (with Gron) and one was ZBS (with Quinn). In addition a guard play - with tebow in at QB, failed when Harris was beat in the same series.

10 teams average 29 carries a game. None have a loosing record, eight are in first place. We need to keep the running game going.

How do you rewatch the game frame by frame and yet still get details wrong? I watched the game once and still can spot out your inaccuracies.

We had 1 negative run. Ball had 2 carries. And when the **** did Buckhalter run the ball?

when you say 10 teams average 29 carries a game, and they all have winning records, you're automatically assuming this only means, running the ball = winning.

The fact is, when teams are winning/ahead in the game they're going to run the ball more. When they're down, they're going to run the ball less. This is something else to take into account.

It's not just A = B in football.

What am I saying though. You watch frame by frame.

fontaine
11-16-2010, 06:17 AM
You could tell the OL really benefitted from that extra week or practice/prep because there didn't suffer from the same individual mistakes from before.

Even though the Chiefs started the game off with 3 DL and two backers at the line of scrimmage, the OL did a very good job of sealing their blocks and manuevering guys around to create holes along the interior. There really weren't any glaring individual mistakes or missed assignments on the interior which was the number 1 reason IMO why our running game looked so bad.

From yesterday's game it appeared that the interior didn't lack physicality at all but just needed time to be consistent enough to prevent the negative plays from happening. Hopefully it continues.

Even in pass protection they looked much much better. Even when the Chiefs stacked 5 guys along the line of scrimmage the OL just looked a lot smoother and picked up their defenders and the tackles especially did a very good job. I didn't keep an eye on who was blocking Hali but he was coming into this game hot and whether it was Harris or Clady they really protected Orton well even though we didn't go into a whole lot of max protect.

gyldenlove
11-16-2010, 06:43 AM
You could tell the OL really benefitted from that extra week or practice/prep because there didn't suffer from the same individual mistakes from before.

Even though the Chiefs started the game off with 3 DL and two backers at the line of scrimmage, the OL did a very good job of sealing their blocks and manuevering guys around to create holes along the interior. There really weren't any glaring individual mistakes or missed assignments on the interior which was the number 1 reason IMO why our running game looked so bad.

From yesterday's game it appeared that the interior didn't lack physicality at all but just needed time to be consistent enough to prevent the negative plays from happening. Hopefully it continues.

Even in pass protection they looked much much better. Even when the Chiefs stacked 5 guys along the line of scrimmage the OL just looked a lot smoother and picked up their defenders and the tackles especially did a very good job. I didn't keep an eye on who was blocking Hali but he was coming into this game hot and whether it was Harris or Clady they really protected Orton well even though we didn't go into a whole lot of max protect.

Having Beadles at LG helped out Walton, I think having Walton and Hochstein/Daniels in there created a gap that was being exploited, but Beadles is better than Daniels and Hochstein and it makes it less interesting for the other team to continually attack that one spot, so Walton had a bit of a breather.

I noticed that Moreno is very good at getting through traffic without losing speed, he was really showing that body control he was drafted for, on several plays there would be a chief in position to make a hit or an arm tackle around the line of scrimmage but Moreno would contort or sidestep around the contact without loss of speed and then gain 5 yards on the play.

Spencer Larsen is really becoming a complete FB in there, I guess it would take a while for the conversion from MLB to FB, but it seems to me he has really come on now, they actually have him in there on passing plays now as well from time to time, which lets Moreno get out of the backfield.

Ball is a guy you give the ball, and he runs until someone tackles him, he definitely doesn't have the speed or wiggle to be elusive, but he is very compact and very direct so if the line can open any sort of gap for him he will gain yards, but he will never break those big ones.

VERY happy to see Moreno get the century, when we was at 99 and then had that loss for 5 yards, I was so disheartened, but luckily they went back to him and got him over to hump.

Jesterhole
11-16-2010, 06:45 AM
The only thing that's going to fix the line is time. Walton and Beadles need time to get up to speed, to put on some more muscle, to learn all the tricks, and to gel with the other guys. Now that everyone is in their place, hopefully the rooks can settle in.

Really wish we had kept Wiegmann as insurance. Hopefully we'll be able to grab a couple of bulldozers in the draft this year. I don't feel like we have the power to get it done in redzone or 3rd and 2 type situations yet.

TheChamp24
11-16-2010, 07:42 AM
Devine is an option to look at, possibly Kendall Hunter from Oklahoma State as well. Hunter is slower, but should definitely be available in the middle rounds to give good value.

TonyR
11-16-2010, 07:49 AM
And when the **** did Buckhalter run the ball?

Good point, he did not have a carry but did have 2 catches.

Beantown Bronco
11-16-2010, 07:51 AM
One overlooked factor here: penalties. IIRC, we didn't have any on the OLine. When was the last time that happened?

Eldorado
11-16-2010, 08:41 AM
One overlooked factor here: penalties. IIRC, we didn't have any on the OLine. When was the last time that happened?

BAM! Stayed ahead of the count on the first 4 series. One of the few times we got stuffed running on first, we bag 9 on second to royal. It was beautiful.

Eldorado
11-16-2010, 08:42 AM
Is there any way I could talk someone into saying 'Orton has a noodle arm.' again? I think that would be fun right about now.

Boltjolt
11-16-2010, 06:35 PM
I've been calling Noel's name for a while now... would be the perfect change of pace guy and also could work in a few plays at receiver/KR/PR as well. Think of a smaller Percy Harvin or very similar to Dexter McCluster, though faster than either. The one thing that scares me about Devine is the fact that he is very similar to Trindan Holiday size wise and Holiday didn't last long for the Texans. Divine may be different b/c despite his smallish stature he is usually one of the strongest guys on the field... not pound for pound strongest, physically the strongest!

I am sure Req could clue us in on a few of the other "speedy" backs in college football that we could look at with one of our 2nd round picks. 2nd round RB may not be a popular choice given our needs at DL, LB, Safety, CB, and TE... but a guy that can go the distance at any point and time is a valuable component to any team. People get caught up in Reggie Bush's numbers and think he doesn't impact games. Watch how much of a difference he makes when he returns to the Saints' lineup. Speaking of Reggie Bush, he will be a free agent won't he? I'd throw money his way in a heart beat. 4 years $40m with $$$ guaranteed... I'd do that before I gave an aging Champ Bailey $10-12m per year and I love Champ Bailey, I'm just looking at this from a long term perspective. Champ goes down to $7-8m per season, no problem. But in this day and age there aren't very many shut down CBs. Shut down defenses start up front and end with QBs that have less than 4 seconds to throw the ball!

You would give that for Bush? :~ohyah!:, he doesnt even have 2,000 rushing yards in his career. As a RB, he has failed miserably. He has more recieving yards than rushing yards. Not to mention he has played 16 games only once in his career.

Rock Chalk
11-16-2010, 07:51 PM
Alex, you are my homeboy and all but you are ****ing insane if you are willing to give Reggie Bush that kind of money.