Over 70% of black babies born to unwed mothers.

[cutthemdown]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_unwed_births72_percent;_ylt=AjUM5upWvAd_nuUZrtS IxTxbbBAF;_ylu=X3oDMTM3a2tka3YzBGFzc2V0Ay9zL2FwL3V zX3Vud2VkX2JpcnRoczcyX3BlcmNlbnQEY2NvZGUDbXBfZWNfO F8xMARjcG9zAzcEcG9zAzcEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yaWVzBHN sawNibGFja3NzdHJ1Z2c-

HOUSTON – One recent day at Dr. Natalie Carroll's OB-GYN practice, located inside a low-income apartment complex tucked between a gas station and a freeway, 12 pregnant black women come for consultations. Some bring their children or their mothers. Only one brings a husband.

Things move slowly here. Women sit shoulder-to-shoulder in the narrow waiting room, sometimes for more than an hour. Carroll does not rush her mothers in and out. She wants her babies born as healthy as possible, so Carroll spends time talking to the mothers about how they should care for themselves, what she expects them to do — and why they need to get married.

Seventy-two percent of black babies are born to unmarried mothers today, according to government statistics. This number is inseparable from the work of Carroll, an obstetrician who has dedicated her 40-year career to helping black women.

"The girls don't think they have to get married. I tell them children deserve a mama and a daddy. They really do," Carroll says from behind the desk of her office, which has cushioned pink-and-green armchairs, bars on the windows, and a wooden "LOVE" carving between two African figurines. Diamonds circle Carroll's ring finger.

As the issue of black unwed parenthood inches into public discourse, Carroll is among the few speaking boldly about it. And as a black woman who has brought thousands of babies into the world, who has sacrificed income to serve Houston's poor, Carroll is among the few whom black women will actually listen to.

"A mama can't give it all. And neither can a daddy, not by themselves," Carroll says. "Part of the reason is because you can only give that which you have. A mother cannot give all that a man can give. A truly involved father figure offers more fullness to a child's life."

Statistics show just what that fullness means. Children of unmarried mothers of any race are more likely to perform poorly in school, go to prison, use drugs, be poor as adults, and have their own children out of wedlock.

The black community's 72 percent rate eclipses that of most other groups: 17 percent of Asians, 29 percent of whites, 53 percent of Hispanics and 66 percent of Native Americans were born to unwed mothers in 2008, the most recent year for which government figures are available. The rate for the overall U.S. population was 41 percent.


Wow no wonder we have so many problems in heavily black areas. What can society do to help black children have married parents? I wouldn't have believed the stat could be that high of a %.

I wonder if the numbers in this article could be wrong?

[epicSocialism4tw]

This is a HUGE problem, and is the biggest hurdle for kids below the poverty line to have a chance at escaping poverty.

Family values are integral to a functional society. Its time that we started honoring them again.

[barryr]

It is also interesting that Obama seems to ignore this issue too.

[Kid A]

It is also interesting that Obama seems to ignore this issue too.

Right. The guy who wrote a book centered around the gap his absentee father left in his life has never addressed or spoke to this issue. :oyvey:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/16/us/politics/15cnd-obama.html


http://www.lasentinel.net/President-Obama-s-Father-s-Day-Speech.html

You and I know how true this is in the African-American community. We know that more than half of all black children live in single-parent households, a number that has doubled - doubled - since we were children. We know the statistics - that children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and twenty times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioral problems, or run away from home, or become teenage parents themselves. And the foundations of our community are weaker because of it.

[epicSocialism4tw]

It is also interesting that Obama seems to ignore this issue too.

Obama's father was a dead beat as well.

However, he did spend time in the inner city as an advocate of sorts. He isnt a cold hearted loser. He learned to stick with his own family instead of bailing on them because they chained him down like his own father did. We need more of that in poverty-stricken America. Obama's family was relatively well off though.

I really wish that Obama would have been the man to stand up for family values in the inner city. To make it a goal to increase the use of pro-fatherhood and pro-family initiatives. It could have been his greatest contribution to our country. That's what is needed there.

Instead we get the food police and government funded aboritions.

However, there's still time. Maybe he can still go in that direction.

[barryr]

Right. The guy who wrote a book centered around the gap his absentee father left in his life has never addressed or spoke to this issue. :oyvey:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/16/us/politics/15cnd-obama.html


http://www.lasentinel.net/President-Obama-s-Father-s-Day-Speech.html

Sure, he wrote it about since it involved HIMSELF genius. I am talking about others who are in that situation. How many books or speeches has he centered on the subject about others? Not much. Hard to believe I had to actually explain that to you ???

[Kid A]

The troubles of inner city families are obviously not a subject I'm all that immersed in, but I heard a segment on the radio discussing the Harlem Children's Zone (http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/364/going-big). I encourage you to listen to the first part of the radio show or read up on them: http://www.hcz.org/

Apparently the results from their programs have been staggering. Obama has singled it out as a model for other areas (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/01/AR2009080102297.html) and gotten funding put toward it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harlem_Children%27s_Zone:

The Obama administration announced a 20 Promise Neighborhoods program, which hopes to replicate the success[5] of the HCZ in poverty-stricken areas of other U.S. cities.[6] In the summer of 2010, the U.S. Department of Education's Promise Neighborhoods program accepted applications from over 300 communities for $10 million in federal grants for developing HCZ implementation plans, with grant awards to be announced in September 2010.

As overwhelming as the numbers seem to be, stories of programs like this give me hope that there is some reason for hope.

[W*GS]

Obama's father was a dead beat as well.

Too bad your father didn't just beat off.

[Kid A]

Sure, he wrote it about since it involved HIMSELF genius. I am talking about others who are in that situation. How many books or speeches has he centered on the subject about others? Not much. Hard to believe I had to actually explain that to you ???

What are you talking about? The speech I linked to was him addressing the African-American community as a whole, saying the numbers were unacceptable in very blunt terms. It's hardly self-involved of him to use his position as the most visible/powerful black man in our culture to talk about this point. A lot of leaders have been scared to even make it a talking point. Obama has taken advantage of his unique leverage in that community to bring attention to the current woes.

And, the post I made above this one is a concrete example of a policy move he has made on this subject.

[spdirty]

Too bad your father didn't just beat off.

Like you're any better. Every single one of your posts screams of "I'm a douche because daddy didn't pay enough attention to me."

[W*GS]

What are you talking about? The speech I linked to was him addressing the African-American community as a whole, saying the numbers were unacceptable in very blunt terms. It's hardly self-involved of him to use his position as the most visible/powerful black man in our culture to talk about this point. A lot of leaders have been scared to even make it a talking point. Obama has taken advantage of his unique leverage in that community to bring attention to the current woes.

And, the post I made above this one is a concrete example of a policy move he has made on this subject.

If you think the rightards here listen to the facts, then you're sadly mistaken.

[orinjkrush]

http://files.sharenator.com/thats_racist_LOL_Funny_Pictures-s150x134-43840.gif

[That One Guy]

I'll be honest and probably upset more folk here.

I find it hard to really care, personally. For the last 15+ years I've heard nothing but equal opportunity crying. From the late days of affirmative action to the crying that the higher percentage of blacks in prison are because the cops are just racist against them. Blacks can't succeed from inner city schools because the schools aren't capable of producing successful students, they can't get jobs because the American society is too racist and trying to hold them back, they end up in prison because whitey-cop hates black people.

Spread your legs for garbage, end up blowing a dealer in an alley for another hit. Have sex with a deadbeat, go hungry and think about your decision for the rest of your life.

But, I guess, there's probably some sort of white-led conspiracy leading the fertility conspiracy too. Maybe whites are pumping fertility drugs into the water supply for predominately black neighborhoods to continue the oppression?

[W*GS]

Like you're any better. Every single one of your posts screams of "I'm a douche because daddy didn't pay enough attention to me."

Hunh?

Neo-Freudianism isn't your strong point.

[barryr]

if you think the rightards here listen to the facts, then you're sadly mistaken.

lol

[Bronco_Beerslug]

It is also interesting that Obama seems to ignore this issue too.Really? How do you fix it Einstein?

[barryr]

What are you talking about? The speech I linked to was him addressing the African-American community as a whole, saying the numbers were unacceptable in very blunt terms. It's hardly self-involved of him to use his position as the most visible/powerful black man in our culture to talk about this point. A lot of leaders have been scared to even make it a talking point. Obama has taken advantage of his unique leverage in that community to bring attention to the current woes.

And, the post I made above this one is a concrete example of a policy move he has made on this subject.

I hardly criticized Obama for talking about himself in his book. For as much as Obama talks about other subjects, this one has been put on the back burner and let's face it, the ones you posted are a year old.

[barryr]

Really? How do you fix it Einstein?

Oh BF is back. I don't recall saying Obama needed to have a solution, just he doesn't talk about it much is all. I know that is too hard to grasp for an internet tough guy LOL

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Oh BF is back. I don't recall saying Obama needed to have a solution, just he doesn't talk about it much is all. I know that is too hard to grasp for an internet tough guy LOL You responded to this thread with a diss on Obama for not addressing the problem. One more time Einstein, what is your solution to solve this problem?

[Rigs11]

You responded to this thread with a diss on Obama for not addressing the problem. One more time Einstein, what is your solution to solve this problem?

he's a rightard..they don't have any solutions only criticism.

[Atwater 27]

Too bad your father didn't just beat off.

classy.

[baja]

Is this why black guys always say hi mom

[Taco John]

Too bad your father didn't just beat off.

Family smack is strictly prohibited on The Orange Mane and enforced with a no tolerance policy. People should be able to converse on this forum without having their family brought into the discussion for ridicule - even in the politics section.

[Taco John]

Really? How do you fix it Einstein?



Cultural leaders can only fix this by speaking out on the topic, and being good examples. Barack and Michelle deserve kudos for being a great example of good and loving parents to their two daughters. I think a family is about the most important thing a kid can have growing up, and wish that more focus was made by our cultural leaders in stressing the importance of strong families.

[barryr]

You responded to this thread with a diss on Obama for not addressing the problem. One more time Einstein, what is your solution to solve this problem?

Tough guy still can't get it. Addressing it is not the same as having a solution. You are stupid, but this isn't news. Internet tough guys are usually good at reacting irrationally than thinking.

[barryr]

he's a rightard..they don't have any solutions only criticism.

Which describes you for the years under Bush, so then you are no different.

[Requiem]

The answer is easy. . . show them the light of God!

[Atwater 27]

The answer is easy. . . show them the light of God!

With a complete understanding of your illustrious attempt to denigrate religion, you should know that it couldn't hurt any in this situation.

[Requiem]

With a complete understanding of your illustrious attempt to denigrate religion, you should know that it couldn't hurt any in this situation.

Why would it help?

Blacks tend to be some of the most religious members of our society, yet this problem still exists.

Either way, strong family values can still be had without adherence to religion.

This is a pretty complicated subject and there might not even be a right answer.

Educating people on making the right choices in life would help tremendously, but unfortunately a lot of those efforts can be hit or miss in inner-city or poor atmospheres were this problem is prevalent.

[Atwater 27]

Why would it help?

Blacks tend to be some of the most religious members of our society, yet this problem still exists.

Either way, strong family values can still be had without adherence to religion.

This is a pretty complicated subject and there might not even be a right answer.

Educating people on making the right choices in life would help tremendously, but unfortunately a lot of those efforts can be hit or miss in inner-city or poor atmospheres were this problem is prevalent.

Blacks tend to be some of the most religious members of our society?

The key is paracticing vs posing. The world is full of those who claim to be christian but don't go to church save for maybe easter with grandma.
I am close to 2 black families, I share thanksgiving and christmas with them every year. They are religious, and they practice. And their rather large families are well adjusted, promising and none of their kids were 'illegitimate'. And believe me, their religion had ALOT to do with their family and its success.

Then you have me, an agnostic-ish white dude who's only kid was born out of wedlock. So go figure.

[ghwk]

Tough guy still can't get it. Addressing it is not the same as having a solution. You are stupid, but this isn't news. Internet tough guys are usually good at reacting irrationally than thinking.

That post describes you perfectly.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Blacks tend to be some of the most religious members of our society?

The key is paracticing vs posing. The world is full of those who claim to be christian but don't go to church save for maybe easter with grandma.
I am close to 2 black families, I share thanksgiving and christmas with them every year. They are religious, and they practice. And their rather large families are well adjusted, promising and none of their kids were 'illegitimate'. And believe me, their religion had ALOT to do with their family and its success.

Then you have me, an agnostic-ish white dude who's only kid was born out of wedlock. So go figure.

The problem with the poverty cycle in African American culture is a difficult one.

Absent fathers are the biggest contributor to these problems. In these cases families are governed by moms who are stretched to thin because they are overloaded with responsibilities that they never learned to handle in the first place, and grandmas. Grandmas become the central authority figure. They have experience to know what bad choices do to children, but they dont have the cultural connection. They also tend to be short on energy.

As for the role of the church, church people tend to be the ones to step in and provide support for the families. Clothes, food, rent money, electric bill money, gas money, health care, etc. They also provide mentors and people who check in on the family. All of these great things that the church can provide still dont add up to the one thing that's missing: dad. Not just a warm body living upstairs, but a dad who is involved. Many men come and go in these households and they tend to leave negative impressions on the children. Physical, psychological, and sexual abuse are realities that are dealt with.

I think that Obama could go a long way toward earning the trust of middle America by promoting family-first initiatives all over the country. The perception of fatherhood should be changed from Homer Simpson to one of honor and service. You can help this with media initiatives and public speaking engagements.

This is one of those come-together issues that would earn Obama a large amount of political capital with the new conservative movement, and its an issue that the majority of the populace would agree with. Unfortunately, Obama's hands are tied by small special interest groups who equate family values with the church and believe that anything having to do with religion should be discouraged by the government.

Family values are hugely important. Their value cannot be overstated.

[That One Guy]

Irresponsibility in this country runs rampant and is definitely not restricted to race. If we could start holding irresponsible people responsible for their actions, we'd have a change in mentality. Need welfare money to feed your kids? Great, submit for a periodic audit of your finances. If you're wearing gold chains or buying new mud tires for your jacked up truck, you don't need assistance.

Stop treating irresponsibility like a birth defect and hold people accountable. Either they'll shape up or stop putting their hands out. Recognize the children are not to blame but don't make it easy on the parents when they make a bad decision.

[mhgaffney]

We have decapitated black society.

The white power structure has killed, imprisoned or in one way or another destroyed every black leader of consequence.

As the black poet Yusef Komunyakaa writes, "the cell block has replaced the auction block.."

[epicSocialism4tw]

We have decapitated black society.

The white power structure has killed, imprisoned or in one way or another destroyed every black leader of consequence.

As the black poet Yusef Komunyakaa writes, "the cell block has replaced the auction block.."

Barack Obama.

Thanks for playing.

[Atwater 27]

We have decapitated black society.

The white power structure has killed, imprisoned or in one way or another destroyed every black leader of consequence.

As the black poet Yusef Komunyakaa writes, "the cell block has replaced the auction block.."

Oh blow the white guilt out your race baiting ass, moron.

[That One Guy]

We have decapitated black society.

The white power structure has killed, imprisoned or in one way or another destroyed every black leader of consequence.

As the black poet Yusef Komunyakaa writes, "the cell block has replaced the auction block.."

Exactly the point of my first post. So many of life's failures are tied to simply having children out of wedlock yet they, as a populace, continue to blow everyone else away in that department.

We then just blame the white man.

And if white people were truly trying to hold that movement down, Sharpton would've been offed long ago. He's been nothing but a baiter for ~20 years now.

[Spider]

too bad your father didn't just beat off.

lol

[Spider]

so should Black women marry white guys ? .....

[barryr]

That post describes you perfectly.

All of yours show a lack of education and awareness, but thank you.

[TonyR]

This is a HUGE problem, and is the biggest hurdle for kids below the poverty line to have a chance at escaping poverty.

Wow, this might be the first time I've agreed 100% with something you've said! You must have gone and educated yourself about the cycle of poverty after I beat you and your righty buddies over the head with it several times over the last few weeks. Progress!

[epicSocialism4tw]

Wow, this might be the first time I've agreed 100% with something you've said! You must have gone and educated yourself about the cycle of poverty after I beat you and your righty buddies over the head with it several times over the last few weeks. Progress!

Dude, I have spent over a decade serving the diverse inner city community. I sold my stuff, moved in, and went to work.

There's nothing you could say that would scratch the surface of what I understand.

If you would take your blinders off, maybe you could learn a few things yourself.

[Atwater 27]

Dude, I have spent over a decade serving the diverse inner city community. I sold my stuff, moved in, and went to work.

There's nothing you could say that would scratch the surface of what I understand.

If you would take your blinders off, maybe you could learn a few things yourself.

Tony R got PWNED.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Tough guy still can't get it. Addressing it is not the same as having a solution. You are stupid, but this isn't news. Internet tough guys are usually good at reacting irrationally than thinking. You, calling me stupid is classic. I would guess your IQ somewhere between 70-85 (being generous here). So one more time, what is your solution to the "Black" problem in this country, since you commented on it.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

There's nothing you could say that would scratch the surface of what I understand.
Yep, you are the God of knowledge and "understanding" in this forum. Anyone doubt it, just ask him.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Cultural leaders can only fix this by speaking out on the topic, and being good examples. Barack and Michelle deserve kudos for being a great example of good and loving parents to their two daughters. I think a family is about the most important thing a kid can have growing up, and wish that more focus was made by our cultural leaders in stressing the importance of strong families.I agree with that, though our problems in this country with unwed mothers (keeps growing every year with every race) is part of a culture change in this country.

[baja]

You, calling me stupid is classic. I would guess your IQ somewhere between 70-85 (being generous here). So one more time, what is your solution to the "Black" problem in this country, since you commented on it.

I'd have all the black guys tie their dick in a knot. Only when they "tie" the marital knot are they allowed to untie the dick knot.

What do ya think?

[cutthemdown]

I think Obama should make a leave your baby tax.

[Garcia Bronco]

I blame the women more than the men. They hold the key. Stop giving it up.

[baja]

I blame the women more than the men. They hold the key.<b> Stop giving it up.

That's so simple! Now why didn't anybody else think of that???

[baja]

My solution will sound drastic to some. Implant long term birth control into every woman that can conceive. Remove the device when the woman has a legal spouse along with the funds and income required to rase a child.

[Garcia Bronco]

That's so simple! Now why didn't anybody else think of that???

Hehe.

[TailgateNut]

My solution will sound drastic to some. Implant long term birth control into every woman that can conceive. Remove the device when the woman has a legal spouse along with the funds and income required to rase a child.


Mcskillet, is that you???;D

[baja]

The earth can not support unchecked population growth of the human species that is a fact.

I watch how it works here in Mexico. Many young girls here have a baby by the time they are 15 or 16. They have no clue about responsible parenting. By the time they are 20 they often have 3 kids all by different fathers none of whom are in the children's lives. The schools work double shifts. Most of these kids end up as drug addicts and support their habit by committing crimes. It's a huge problem. One that must be solved or we will all perish when our host the earth can no longer support the volume of people. There are a lot of people that breed as thoughtlessly as dogs. We spay dogs to protect society. What is the solution to people grossly over breeding? You tell me.

[TailgateNut]

The earth can not support unchecked population growth of the human species that is a fact.

I watch how it works here in Mexico. Many young girls here have a baby by the time they are 15 or 16. They have no clue about responsible parenting. By the time they are 20 they often have 3 kids all by different fathers none of whom are in the children's lives. The schools work double shifts. Most of these kids end up as drug addicts and support their habit by committing crimes. It's a huge problem. One that must be solved or we will all perish when our host the earth can no longer support the volume of people. There are a lot of people that breed as thoughtlessly as dogs. We spay dogs to protect society. What is the solution to people grossly over breeding? You tell me.

I see it here in colorado also. Many hispanic couples who appear to be in their early twenties have a herd of offspring in tow. I can't imagine having and raising that many children at such a young age. One cannot discount the financial aspect which if not borne by the parents, has to be absorbed by society.

I'm sure Mcstupid and McBarry will accuse me of racism for my comments, but the catholic standards and poverty are partially to blame for overpopulation.

Something needs to be done. Our planet can only sustain so much life.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I blame the women more than the men. They hold the key. Stop giving it up.

There is truth to that, however, its the women who end up biting the bullet and raising the children. Twice in many cases...as young mothers and then as matriarchal grandmothers.

[epicSocialism4tw]

The earth can not support unchecked population growth of the human species that is a fact.

I watch how it works here in Mexico. Many young girls here have a baby by the time they are 15 or 16. They have no clue about responsible parenting. By the time they are 20 they often have 3 kids all by different fathers none of whom are in the children's lives. The schools work double shifts. Most of these kids end up as drug addicts and support their habit by committing crimes. It's a huge problem. One that must be solved or we will all perish when our host the earth can no longer support the volume of people. There are a lot of people that breed as thoughtlessly as dogs. We spay dogs to protect society. What is the solution to people grossly over breeding? You tell me.

Goodness, guy.

Of all of youre weird opinions, the "dont let them reproduce because theyre poor" opinion may just take the cake.

Considering that you have tied in there the old "mother earth cannot support them" opinion, you are treading on some scary ground there.

People who believe that the poor need to be handled like animals are the worst kind.

The problem in Mexico is that the Mexican government is trash. They're more concerned about building their own palaces than they are concerned with taking care of their people. People cant own property there, and there is very very little upward mobility.

[TailgateNut]

Goodness, guy.

Of all of youre weird opinions, the "dont let them reproduce because theyre poor" opinion may just take the cake.

Considering that you have tied in there the old "mother earth cannot support them" opinion, you are treading on some scary ground there.

People who believe that the poor need to be handled like animals are the worst kind.

The problem in Mexico is that the Mexican government is trash. They're more concerned about building their own palaces than they are concerned with taking care of their people. People cant own property there, and there is very very little upward mobility.


Almost sounds like your visions of utopia. Don't allow abortions and as soon as they are born "**** 'em".

[epicSocialism4tw]

I see it here in colorado also. Many hispanic couples who appear to be in their early twenties have a herd of offspring in tow. I can't imagine having and raising that many children at such a young age. One cannot discount the financial aspect which if not borne by the parents, has to be absorbed by society.

I'm sure Mcstupid and McBarry will accuse me of racism for my comments, but the catholic standards and poverty are partially to blame for overpopulation.

Something needs to be done. Our planet can only sustain so much life.

You have proven here time and time again that you have racist opinions. No need to get into that further.

The reasons why illegal immigrants have lots of children are simple. 1) Anchor babies, 2) they have education and health care available here, 3) they have income that can support children.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Almost sounds like your visions of utopia. Don't allow abortions and as soon as they are born "**** 'em".

Yeah, thats it. LOL

What have you ever given to the less fortunate in your community?

[TailgateNut]

You have proven here time and time again that you have racist opinions. No need to get into that further.

The reasons why illegal immigrants have lots of children are simple. 1) Anchor babies, 2) they have education and health care available here, 3) they have income that can support children.


I'll give you #1 and 2, on number three I call BULL****.

[baja]

Goodness, guy.

Of all of youre weird opinions, the "dont let them reproduce because theyre poor" opinion may just take the cake.

Considering that you have tied in there the old "mother earth cannot support them" opinion, you are treading on some scary ground there.

People who believe that the poor need to be handled like animals are the worst kind.

The problem in Mexico is that the Mexican government is trash. They're more concerned about building their own palaces than they are concerned with taking care of their people. People cant own property there, and there is very very little upward mobility.

Spoken like a good Catholic. Not to worry the corporate elite are working on a new pandemic as we speak, trouble is it won't be selective. It could be you that dies an early death.

[baja]

I'd like to stay are argue this point but I have to go to my population reduction meeting.

[epicSocialism4tw]

I'll give you #1 and 2, on number three I call BULL****.

Well, you obviously are not familiar with that demographic in your community.

Let me help you to understand.

Even for illegal immigrants here there is a modicum of upward mobility. But that is not the reason why they have money to take care of their children. That's because they share residences with other family members and they tend to live in low-income housing. So you have a guy who works 30 hours a week as a janitorial staff member making 8 bucks an hour, and then works with his wife at night 20 hours a week cleaning businesses. That kind of family makes it on their own with only about 1000 dollars a month in expenses. I have found it rare that you see just a husband, wife, and their kids in an apartment though. Its usually a couple of uncles and/or aunts and/or grandparents as well.

Who'da thunk it? People sharing a residence to reduce cost of living? Its just like things used to be in this country before we became so closed off from one another.

[TailgateNut]

Yeah, thats it. LOL

What have you ever given to the less fortunate in your community?

I give to many organizations. The Food Bank of the Rockies, American Red Cross, Disabled American Vets, Salvation Army, and quite a few others....and I do volunteer service for vet organizations.....and unlike yourself, I generally vote for the party that gives a **** about the needy and poor.

[epicSocialism4tw]

My solution will sound drastic to some. Implant long term birth control into every woman that can conceive. Remove the device when the woman has a legal spouse along with the funds and income required to rase a child.

It doesnt sound drastic at all.

It sounds downright crazy.

Americans like to throw around the word 'crazy' in political discourse to describe people we dont agree with, but the opinion above is literally insane.

You must hate people. That must suck for you.

[TailgateNut]

Well, you obviously are not familiar with that demographic in your community.

Let me help you to understand.

Even for illegal immigrants here there is a modicum of upward mobility. But that is not the reason why they have money to take care of their children. That's because they share residences with other family members and they tend to live in low-income housing. So you have a guy who works 30 hours a week as a janitorial staff member making 8 bucks an hour, and then works with his wife at night 20 hours a week cleaning businesses. That kind of family makes it on their own with only about 1000 dollars a month in expenses. I have found it rare that you see just a husband, wife, and their kids in an apartment though. Its usually a couple of uncles and/or aunts and/or grandparents as well.

Who'da thunk it? People sharing a residence to reduce cost of living? Its just like things used to be in this country before we became so closed off from one another.



You forgot to mention that their kids are on reduced fees for education, that they most likely abuse our medical system at the expense of Joe Public.

[TailgateNut]

Spoken like a good Catholic. Not to worry the corporate elite are working on a new pandemic as we speak, trouble is it won't be selective. It could be you that dies an early death.

We can always HOPE!

[epicSocialism4tw]

I give to many organizations. The Food Bank of the Rockies, American Red Cross, Disabled American Vets, Salvation Army, and quite a few others....and I do volunteer service for vet organizations.....and unlike yourself, I generally vote for the party that gives a **** about the needy and poor.

You are very confused as to which party gives to the needy. It is OVERWHELMINGLY the right, and its not even a fair fight.

Liberals make more money on average, but give less to charity: http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2682730&page=1

[TailgateNut]

You are very confused as to which party gives to the needy. It is OVERWHELMINGLY the right, and its not even a fair fight.

Liberals make more money on average, but give less to charity: http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2682730&page=1


Might have something to do with their guilty conscience.LOL

[epicSocialism4tw]

Might have something to do with their guilt.

It has to do with priorities.

Middle american conservatives are the salt of the earth. They employ and give freely of their own money to those who are less fortunate.

Its time we start honoring the real role models in this country...those are the contractors, physicians, landscapers, pool cleaners, etc, who employ citizens and give a disproportionate amount of their own income to further help those in need.

Being a self-made boss develops a sense in people. Its not a sense of entitlement, but just the opposite. Its a sense of wanting to provide more and more for people. On the payroll and in their private life. Being a boss is what makes men into real community leaders.

[TailgateNut]

It has to do with priorities.

Middle american conservatives are the salt of the earth. They employ and give freely of their own money to those who are less fortunate.

Its time we start honoring the real role models in this country...those are the contractors, physicians, landscapers, pool cleaners, etc, who employ citizens and give a disproportionate amount of their own income to further help those in need.

Being a self-made boss develops a sense in people. Its not a sense of entitlement, but just the opposite. Its a sense of wanting to provide more and more for people. On the payroll and in their private life. Being a boss is what makes men into real community leaders.


Now I'm a role model?

Why am I wasting my time with you? I just don't know.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Now I'm a role model?

Why am I wasting my time with you? I just don't know.

I can guarantee you that you are one of the few liberals in your business, and that it has more to do with your hatred of religion than it does with your agreement with liberalism in general.

[TailgateNut]

I can guarantee you that you are one of the few liberals in your business, and that it has more to do with your hatred of religion than it does with your agreement with liberalism in general.

You can GUARANTEE this???ROFL!

[TonyR]

The reasons why illegal immigrants have lots of children are simple. 1) Anchor babies, 2) they have education and health care available here, 3) they have income that can support children.

These are NOT the reasons illegal immigrants have lots of children. It's more of a cultural thing. In some hispanic commnuties, and even more so in the urban African American community, it's a badge of manhood for men to have a lot of offspring. Women, on the other hand, prioritize having children over, among other things, education. Women in these communities are scorned for "leaving the neighborhood" and seeking to better themselves. For someone who claims to work with such people in such neighborhoods you should know this.

[epicSocialism4tw]

You can GUARANTEE this???ROFL!

Regardless of what you say here in this little political game, you know that I'm right.

[epicSocialism4tw]

These are NOT the reasons illegal immigrants have lots of children. It's more of a cultural thing. In some hispanic commnuties, and even more so in the urban African American community, it's a badge of manhood for men to have a lot of offspring. Women, on the other hand, prioritize having children over, among other things, education. Women in these communities are scorned for "leaving the neighborhood" and seeking to better themselves. For someone who claims to work with such people in such neighborhoods you should know this.

That may be true in some cases, but its nowhere near a primary factor.

You should quit talking and just listen.

[TailgateNut]

That may be true in some cases, but its nowhere near a primary factor.

You should quit talking and just listen.


Hmmm, "Do as I say, not as I do" and I thought you religious types had this "do onto others......" thingy you should adhere to.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Hmmm, "Do as I say, not as I do" and I thought you religious types had this "do onto others......" thingy you should adhere to.

Thats not quite whats going on here, but if you would like to know I'd be happy to tell you.

[baja]

Now I'm a role model?

Why am I wasting my time with you? I just don't know.

And he calls you and me crazy???

I guess crazy is a relative term. To the crazy one all the normal people must appear crazy. ;D

[epicSocialism4tw]

And he calls you and me crazy???

I guess crazy is a relative term. To the crazy one all the normal people must appear crazy. ;D

Ah, yes.

The dude who escaped to live off the grid in Mexico, who speaks of needing to sterilize the poor to keep their problems from seeping into your plot in the middle of nowhere, and who rivals gaffney in conspiracy theory wackiness is normal?

;D

[baja]

It doesnt sound drastic at all.

It sounds downright crazy.

Americans like to throw around the word 'crazy' in political discourse to describe people we dont agree with, but the opinion above is literally insane.

You must hate people. That must suck for you.

Have you ever been to India, Bangladesh, Katmandu, Jordan, Mexico City, Belize, Haiti ?

The world population when I was born was about 1.5 billion 60 years later it's approaching 8 billion. The number goes up exponentially. What is your solution, pray for sterility ?

[baja]

Ah, yes.

The dude who escaped to live off the grid in Mexico, who speaks of needing to sterilize the poor to keep their problems from seeping into your plot in the middle of nowhere, and who rivals gaffney in conspiracy theory wackiness is normal?

;D

I live in one of the most peaceful quiet places on earth. Interesting you call that an escape. Usually escape is a term used to describe finding a way to leave a bad situation like escaping from prison.

All your hogwash aside, the reason disadvantaged people have so many kids is because <b>screwing feels good & it is free</b>and when you do that kids happen. I say let people screw all they want just help them from having tons of unwanted kids. I know many people in this situtation and most of them love their kids but they wish they had thought things through a little more carefully before they had so many.

[Dukes]

My solution will sound drastic to some. Implant long term birth control into every woman that can conceive. Remove the device when the woman has a legal spouse along with the funds and income required to rase a child.

That certainly has American freedom written all over it.

[That One Guy]

That certainly has American freedom written all over it.

Not that freedoms aren't a good thing but do you not think all the freedoms we're giving everyone is contributing to our problems these days? Should we REALLY have people competing to be the next octomom and continue to use our social services to support them?

[baja]

That certainly has American freedom written all over it.

Free to fuqk all you want without the burden of unwanted pregnancies

[epicSocialism4tw]

Not that freedoms aren't a good thing but do you not think all the freedoms we're giving everyone is contributing to our problems these days? Should we REALLY have people competing to be the next octomom and continue to use our social services to support them?

People should be responsible for their actions. Period.

[That One Guy]

People should be responsible for their actions. Period.

And while I think you and I generally agree on this, that statement is essentially hollow.

What do you mean by it? How do you propose we implement responsibility without infringing on American "freedoms"?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Should we REALLY have people competing to be the next octomom and continue to use our social services to support them?

As long as those people aren't black, people like cutthemdown and McShillit have no problem with it.

[baja]

As long as those people aren't black, people like cutthemdown and McShillit have no problem with it.

I would like to make something perfectly clear about my position on this. I am against irresponsible conception & parenting from all ethnic groups, white green, blue or whatever.

We have laws that if you want to own a gun then you must take safety classes and prove mental stability and go through a waiting period.

If you want to drive a car you must take a written test and a driving test. You also must be able to afford insurance.

These laws are in place to protect the general society.


When it comes to bringing a child into the world there is no requirements what so ever.

The world population is the population of humans on the planet Earth. It is currently estimated to be 6,880,300,000 by the United States Census Bureau.[1] The world population has experienced continuous growth since the end of the Black Death around the year 1400.[2] The highest rates of growth—increases above 1.8% per year—were seen briefly during the 1950s, then for a longer period during the 1960s and 1970s; the growth rate peaked at 2.2% in 1963, and declined to 1.1% by 2009. Annual births have reduced to 140 million since their peak at 173 million in the late 1990s, and are expected to remain constant, while deaths number 57 million per year and are expected to increase to 90 million per year by 2050. Current projections show a continued increase of population (but a steady decline in the population growth rate) with <b>the population expected to reach between 8 and 10.5 billion in the year 2050.


We need to be able to provide for & nurture the human beings we bring into the world.

One way to increase the odds to that end would be to have a few basic requirements to bring children into the world. I know many will view this as an outrageous concept but so are crack babies or dumpster babies or starving millions around the world.

I realize this is about as big brother as it gets. I would like to know how indigenous tribes addressed this issue if at all.

Nature will find a way to cull the herd if we are unable control population growth on our own. We tend to parent as we were parented. If we were beaten or neglected we tend to view that a normal and often parent that way too, parenting education could improve on that.

A very tough subject indeed.

[cutthemdown]

As long as those people aren't black, people like cutthemdown and McShillit have no problem with it.

What a crock of **** that is.

[TDmvp]

My solution will sound drastic to some. Implant long term birth control into every woman that can conceive. Remove the device when the woman has a legal spouse along with the funds and income required to rase a child.



Actually I don't think that is that far fetched ...



I would have 0 problem with them forcing something like Norplant on a woman who is a chronic breeder.


I also think the morning after pill should be so easy to get you could get it in candy machines. Joking about the candy machines but you know what I mean.


I wouldn't even mind them taking the kids from parents who can't or won't support their kids and putting them in a home of a family who can't have kids who will give them what they should have.


ALSO for a mother to get government money to take care of her kids SHE MUST SUPPLY A FATHERS NAME ... So we can go after him for child support.


I hear far to many stories of mothers having kids , saying there is no father and getting support from the tax payers , while the father lives with her and they are scamming the system.

[cutthemdown]

Scam the system like a good democrat!!!

[Garcia Bronco]

If you leave milk on the stoop you'll get all the wretched cats from near and far.

[Atwater 27]

As long as those people aren't black, people like cutthemdown and McShillit have no problem with it.

racebaiting douchebag

[TailgateNut]

racebaiting douchebag

Predjudiced ****ing republican asshole!

[TailgateNut]

What a crock of **** that is.


You aren't as racist as Mcfryingpansy. Just sayin.

[gyldenlove]

How many of these unwed mothers are single?

I am unwed but I am not single.

[That One Guy]

How many of these unwed mothers are single?

I am unwed but I am not single.

Well I think there is some real logic to committing to another person before committing to another person through bringing a child into the world. If they haven't committed to the other person enough to be married yet they're having their children, that still says something.

And whatever the standards, they're still doing it nearly twice as often as all the other races. Whatever the standards for the data, there's some inherent bad decisions and irresponsibility there.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

What a crock of **** that is.

Like hell it is.

You've made your feelings about blacks crystal clear since you've been here.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

racebaiting douchebag

::)

There you go with another one of your typical "I am rubber - you are glue" comebacks.

Anyone who wishes to understand how the G.W. Bushes and the Sarah Palins of the world come to be taken seriously in American politics needs only to read a few of your posts.

[That One Guy]

Like hell it is.

You've made your feelings about blacks crystal clear since you've been here.

I think there's some that do make their stance crystal clear. Not sure he's one of them.

That's quite the statement to make though without doing a bit of legwork and producing some quotes.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I think there's some that do make their stance crystal clear. Not sure he's one of them.


He is definitely one of them.

He might be a bit more subtle about it than some other right-wingnuts here (which isn't saying much.)

What do you suppose his motive is for starting this thread?

[TDmvp]

He is definitely one of them.

He might be a bit more subtle about it than some other right-wingnuts here (which isn't saying much.)

What do you suppose his motive is for starting this thread?




Dude I think I made a thread about this same topic when I seen these stats...

This study was released like 6 months ago I think , and I made a thread about it and very little people commented on it ...

I didn't title the thread like this one is , it was just like % of babies born to single mothers by race or something plane like that...

But I listed the same stats as stated in this thread and my shock about it...

So I guess I hate black people now L.A. ???? pls reply cause dude just because you start a thread about a topic doesn't mean Jack unless there is more to it then when you said What do you suppose his motive is for starting this thread?


Because if that's it you're not being fair man...

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

So I guess I hate black people now L.A. ????

Dunno - I haven't read enough of your posts on the subject to make that call.

Cutthemdown is another story, however.

In any event, what do you suppose his motive was for posting this?

Are you going to try to argue that it was done out of care and concern for the welfare of the black community?

If so, then I have some oceanfront property in Ohio you might be interested in.

[That One Guy]

He is definitely one of them.

He might be a bit more subtle about it than some other right-wingnuts here (which isn't saying much.)

What do you suppose his motive is for starting this thread?

Going with your train of thought, what's the issue?

Is it racist to state statistics? Maybe if we can get to the bottom of this issue, things will turn around. Whether the other races are to blame or not, there's no denying that the social issues facing the black population are a burden to us all. Now a situation that is absolutely solely in the hands of that same black population should not be glossed over for the sake of political correctness.

Hypothetically, maybe they can't avoid being arrested more than everyone else because the cops are racist.

Hypothetically, maybe they can't be blamed for having an obscene percentage of dropouts and undereducated citizens.

Hypothetically, maybe they can't be blamed for... because it's the oppressive white man's fault for....

This birth rate thing, however, is something they can blame on noone but themselves.

You often still point at Bush fans and call people hypocrits for not criticizing their party but wanting to criticize Obama. Is it not a fair slate then for everyone else to say, "hey, maybe there are some racist people in the world still, but try improving your own situation with what you can control rather than simply blaming everyone else for all the faults in your life?"

All hypothetically, of course, I don't want to be deemed racist by those who decide such things.

[Spider]

I say we dress up like black guys , listen to rap the whole 9 yards , and we breed white America into em .... the plan cant fail

[TDmvp]

Dunno - I haven't read enough of your posts on the subject to make that call.

Cutthemdown is another story, however.



That's fair . A opinion tho but one you are fully entitled to.

I just never make those kinda calls tho just based on peoples post here...
Know of us really know anyone.

Me and you L.A. fight a lot when actually when are a lot alike as far as likes and things we enjoy and what we do.

And me and Baja fight like cats and dogs about sports and political stuff but Baja on moral stuff and life stuff is always a great guy...



I just don't know if TO ME personally it's fair to make a FINAL judgement on that sorta hate about someone when none of us know each other besides the persona someone takes on here OR the conception someone has of us...

[TDmvp]

I say we dress up like black guys , listen to rap the whole 9 yards , and we breed white America into em .... the plan cant fail

http://bluwiki.com/images/3/30/Not_sure_if_serious.jpg


Sorry couldn't resist .Any chance to use that pic I just can't pass up Spider ...

[Spider]

http://bluwiki.com/images/3/30/Not_sure_if_serious.jpg


Sorry couldn't resist .Any chance to use that pic I just can't pass up Spider ...

:approve:

[cutthemdown]

That's fair . A opinion tho but one you are fully entitled to.

I just never make those kinda calls tho just based on peoples post here...
Know of us really know anyone.

Me and you L.A. fight a lot when actually when are a lot alike as far as likes and things we enjoy and what we do.

And me and Baja fight like cats and dogs about sports and political stuff but Baja on moral stuff and life stuff is always a great guy...



I just don't know if TO ME personally it's fair to make a FINAL judgement on that sorta hate about someone when none of us know each other besides the persona someone takes on here OR the conception someone has of us...

I only made the thread because I thought the numbers were crazy and people would find the topic scintiliating. I didn't do it because I am a racist. I mean that is just silly. Racisim should be a word left for a person that would actully try and infring on another races right to pursue happiness. Certainly me making opinions on race related matters doesn't fall into that category.

When it comes to how I treat people of different races I try to be open minded and non prejudicial but I do sometimes fall short in that area. Racist though? no way that has to be reserved for people who think they are superior to other races and would try and hold them back. I certainly don't feel any race is gentically superior or should be serperated from whites etc etc.

LABF just drops that word too much.

[That One Guy]

I only made the thread because I thought the numbers were crazy and people would find the topic scintiliating. I didn't do it because I am a racist. I mean that is just silly. Racisim should be a word left for a person that would actully try and infring on another races right to pursue happiness. Certainly me making opinions on race related matters doesn't fall into that category.

When it comes to how I treat people of different races I try to be open minded and non prejudicial but I do sometimes fall short in that area. Racist though? no way that has to be reserved for people who think they are superior to other races and would try and hold them back. I certainly don't feel any race is gentically superior or should be serperated from whites etc etc.

LABF just drops that word too much.

Agreed. It's slung around these days in place of anything someone deems uncomfortable or not politically correct.


Question for all:

Can repeating a fact be racist? By the definition I accept, racism is the belief that one race is inherently better than another. Is a fact capable of such? Is repeating a fact merely relaying data from one person to another? In terms of facts, the facts in the OP are no less true than me stating the numbers on my clock are black.


In my opinion:

Racist: "Watch out for darky over there, they'll steal your rims the second you turn your back."

Not Racist: "Studies show black people commit crimes more than any other race."


The second asserts or implies a negative sentiment to a race but it's not the person asserting such, it's data. Just my opinion, again.

[Requiem]

Nation building in the Middle East will never be successful. The "wars" we are in are not winnable.

[JJJ]

Nation building in the Middle East will never be successful. The "wars" we are in are not winnable.

Iraq has and will continue to prove this statement to be wrong.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Is it racist to state statistics?

That would depend on the motives of the person citing the statistics, wouldn't it?

He just more or less admitted that he started this thread to stir the pot.

In other words, he's race baiting here.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I only made the thread because I thought the numbers were crazy and people would find the topic scintiliating.(sic)

You thought people would find the topic "scintillating?"

What does that even mean?

Really, what sort of responses were you expecting to get here?

[That One Guy]

So if Obama used that statistic in his 'fathers need to step up' speech it wouldn't be racist. However, since a white guy cited it, it's racist? Sounds like another "we can call each other that but you can't call us that" scenario and those contribute to any racial divide as much as anything, in my opinion.

I can't vouch for anyone's motives here but holding a group responsible for their actions shouldn't be off limits and deemed politically incorrect. In itself, I don't see racism.

[gyldenlove]

Well I think there is some real logic to committing to another person before committing to another person through bringing a child into the world. If they haven't committed to the other person enough to be married yet they're having their children, that still says something.

And whatever the standards, they're still doing it nearly twice as often as all the other races. Whatever the standards for the data, there's some inherent bad decisions and irresponsibility there.

I don't see how I am any less committed to my girlfriend than someone who has signed a piece of paper and had it notarized. With the divorce rate of the western world I would say that being married isn't the commitment that a lot of christians would like to make it out to be.

[baja]

I don't see how I am any less committed to my girlfriend than someone who has signed a piece of paper and had it notarized. With the divorce rate of the western world I would say that being married isn't the commitment that a lot of christians would like to make it out to be.

It's about establishing legal responsibility for your children.

BTW - I prefer a standard of minimums to be able to conceive children.

An unprotected sex license if you will. ;D

[Spider]

Plan B we put MSG in fried chicken , turn all the blacks gay ...........fool proof

[baja]

Plan B we put MSG in fried chicken , turn all the blacks gay ...........fool proof

Is that why my watermelon tastes like saltpeter?

[Spider]

Is that why my watermelon tastes like saltpeter?

shhhhhhhhhhh it's a secret ;D

[cutthemdown]

You thought people would find the topic "scintillating?"

What does that even mean?

Really, what sort of responses were you expecting to get here?

Ok what a fraud you are. Do you only start posts about subjects you deeply care about? Or will you start a thread that makes fun, or pokes fun at conservatives?

Exactly. So your motives for starting threads don't even meet your own inane requirements for being a good poster.

Scintillating means a stimulating conversation. Nothing more. One of the resident English teachers like Ms Moose or Poppy would be better to critique its usage though don't you think?

You are right about one thing though..... I did know this thread would piss you off because it failed to blame the man for all your problems.

[TonyR]

Iraq has and will continue to prove this statement to be wrong.

How so? You clearly don't follow what's going on in that country. I linked a little taste for you below. When there's a multi-sectarian democracy in Iraq maybe you'll have an argument, but that will almost certainly never happen. At least not in our lifetimes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/11/world/middleeast/11iraq.html?_r=1&ref=world

[Spider]

Plan C . we pass out condoms , tell black males it makes their Peckers 3 inches longer ..... fool proof

[Spider]

Plan D . black men only sleep with white women , white men only sleep with black women , that will knock that 70% stat to hell .... fool proof

[Requiem]

Iraq has and will continue to prove this statement to be wrong.

I've already hung you out to dry with a holistic analysis of Iraq and why it has not been successful.

The only evidence you have provided was a picture of a woman with ink on her finger for voting.

Not once, did you ever make an argument that would prove my sentiments to be wrong.

[Requiem]

How so? You clearly don't follow what's going on in that country. I linked a little taste for you below. When there's a multi-sectarian democracy in Iraq maybe you'll have an argument, but that will almost certainly never happen. At least not in our lifetimes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/11/world/middleeast/11iraq.html?_r=1&ref=world

You are preaching to deaf ears.

One meeting of parliament since the elections over eight months ago and nothing has absolutely happened.

One key aspect to a democracy is the ability to govern.

Iraq has shown no evidence of doing that and likely won't be able to as long as it is still occupied.

I wish I'd be around here in ten years to say, "I told you so." -- but I guess knowing that I am right anyways is good enough. Would love to be proven wrong, but history indicates otherwise.

[cutthemdown]

Plan D . black men only sleep with white women , white men only sleep with black women , that will knock that 70% stat to hell .... fool proof

How about just white men get all the women.

[That One Guy]

I don't see how I am any less committed to my girlfriend than someone who has signed a piece of paper and had it notarized. With the divorce rate of the western world I would say that being married isn't the commitment that a lot of christians would like to make it out to be.

Maybe committed isn't the word that should seperate the two, you're right. Bound, though, might be more correct.

If you are married and get divorced, things like seperation of property and alimony (spelling?) are considered. They aren't when you're just dating.

[baja]

Plan C . we pass out condoms , tell black males it makes their Peckers 3 inches longer ..... fool proof

Longer penis' are not the problem when it comes to our black brothers. ;D

[Pony Boy]

Nation building in the Middle East will never be successful. The "wars" we are in are not winnable.

Pure BS maybe not winnable to "pussies" like you......... Let me get my hands on the button........camels would be in the same picture book with dinosaurs.....If Ahmadinejad wants nukes, I would see that he gets his wish........

[Requiem]

Toss down all the nukes you want, you aren't going to kill an idea with them. Beyond ignorant, but that is to be expected from you Pony Boy. . . you go dumb.

[baja]

Pure BS maybe not winnable to "pussies" like you......... Let me get my hands on the button........camels would be in the same picture book with dinosaurs.....If Ahmadinejad wants nukes, I would see that he gets his wish........


Did you use your own photo in your avatar.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Iraq has and will continue to prove this statement to be wrong.It's obvious you haven't spent time in the M.E. lately. The majority want NOTHING to do with our "Western Freedoms" in Iran, Iraq, S.A., etc.. They do want and have, 'Religious Rule' though.

[Pony Boy]

Toss down all the nukes you want, you aren't going to kill an idea with them. Beyond ignorant, but that is to be expected from you Pony Boy. . . you go dumb.

Pure crap but that's expected from girls like you, stuff like......

"The "wars" we are in are not winnable."
or "you aren't going to kill an idea with them".

You just need to say home and let your pups suck and keep quoting those political science professors..... and remember ""Those who can, do. Those who can't, sit on their ass like you.

[baja]

It's obvious you haven't spent time in the M.E. lately. The majority want NOTHING to do with our "Western Freedoms" in Iran, Iraq, S.A., etc.. They do want and have, 'Religious Rule' though.

I spent some time in Jordan a couple of years ago and that was not my experience. The people I talked with were very curious about life in the USA.

[Pony Boy]

Did you use your own photo in your avatar.

Yep, we could be twins, but I have a lot more grey hair and I've earned it. :strong:

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I spent some time in Jordan a couple of years ago and that was not my experience. The people I talked with were very curious about life in the USA.So I have (Jordan embraces Western values), this year, but have you spent time In S.A. or Iran or Iraq?

[Requiem]

Pure crap but that's expected from girls like you, stuff like......

"The "wars" we are in are not winnable."
or "you aren't going to kill an idea with them".

You just need to say home and let your pups suck and keep quoting those political science professors..... and remember ""Those who can, do. Those who can't, sit on their ass like you.

If it is pure crap, why can you not refute it? Probably because you are too much of a pissbrain to come up with a good argument against the ability to nation build effectively in the Middle East.

Your suggestion was using nukes in order to win a war, a war against an ideology. It makes me laugh, thinking you can use brute force to crush an idea, when history has proven exactly otherwise. Che would be a good person to quote here. BTW, I wasn't quoting any professor, those thoughts were my own.

You got the idiom wrong too. It actually is, "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."

I wouldn't expect you to be familiar with George Bernard Shaw, or the earlier origins that echo the statement.

It is quite obvious that you are just another droid on here who advocates anti-intellectualism and attempts to be against higher educational pursuit. Which is fine, because learning certainly isn't for everyone. Especially not for you, given that you are your age and unable to come up with an argument that refutes my statements.

So no, I'm not surprised by your butchering and use of the idiom above. It is commonplace for people who don't have much knowledge in the area that is being debated.

Carry on though or come up with an effective argument. I'd *love* to read it.

Hilarious!

[baja]

So I have (Jordan embraces Western values), this year, but have you spent time In S.A. or Iran or Iraq?

No i have not but I have read Iran is pro western in regards to life style.

[Requiem]

A lot of youth there embrace aspects of our culture.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

No i have not but I have read Iran is pro western in regards to life style.Not really, the government is religious rule. Religion dominates their lives, including the youths who dare to speak out in public. All media is censored.

[Pony Boy]

You got the idiom wrong too. It actually is, "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."

Well junior, I'm very well aware of the quote "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" and you are a pea-brain if you can see that I changed the quote to fit you......:rofl: You don't even teach but just sit on your ass and pound away at the keyboard.

It's oblivious to all that you have no experience in life and probably still live at home. You spout off crap that can only come from the liberal college professor that you probably still have a hard-on for. So go back to reading George Bernard Shaw and remember one of his quotes "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it" and I will explain that to you if needed.

[Requiem]

I never had a liberal professor in any class I took regarding international relations. Sorry.

I have an apartment, thanks. So yeah, I guess I do live at home. . . if we are getting technical.

And no, I don't need that quote explained to me, but I can guarantee you have no idea why he stated that or recognize the context behind it.

Are you even aware that he was a proponent of socialism, or were you aloof to that as well?

Rather than attacking me, would you like to address these questions:


What will it take for successful nation building to happen in the Middle East on behalf of the United State?

How can the United States and its allies effectively win the Global War on Terror?


Keep in mind, you will have to come up with what constitutes as a "win" in the latter scenario. I will leave it up to you. This will be my last response to you in the thread, assuming you will not or cannot answer these questions.

Best of luck, you will probably need it.

[Requiem]

Not really, the government is religious rule. Religion dominates their lives, including the youths who dare to speak out in public. All media is censored.

Iran being a governed theocracy does not mean by virtue the youth of that country are not for Pro-Western ideals.

The youth in Iran are very Pro-West. There are a lot of scholarly journal articles and various editorials that point this out. I'd be glad to share some with you if you would like, BB.

[Pony Boy]

Are you even aware that he was a proponent of socialism, or were you aloof to that as well?

Here's another quote that does apply to you .......

"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul". George Bernard Shaw

[Requiem]

Unfortunately it doesn't. I guess I back-pedaled and did respond to you. Are you going to attempt to address the questions I posted or not?

[Pony Boy]

Rather than attacking me, would you like to address these questions:


What will it take for successful nation building to happen in the Middle East on behalf of the United State?

How can the United States and its allies effectively win the Global War on Terror?


Keep in mind, you will have to come up with what constitutes as a "win" in the latter scenario. I will leave it up to you. This will be my last response to you in the thread, assuming you will not or cannot answer these questions.Best of luck, you will probably need it.

What, no college style multiple choice questions?

So this will be your last response......Now that hurts my feelings.... Hilarious!Hilarious!

Well the first question is easy...... It's not our ****ing job to build successful nations in the Middle East.

And you wouldn't understand the second answer because it requires political profiling, a very heavy hand and some water boarding every now and then.

[Requiem]

What, no college style multiple choice questions?

Nope, I'm a fan of short-answer and essay.

Well the first question is easy...... It's not our ****ing job to build successful nations in the Middle East.

I agree, it is not our job. However, you believe the war(s) are winnable. How so?

And you wouldn't understand the second answer because it requires political profiling, a very heavy hand and some water boarding every now and then.

Great, another dodge.

Guess you can't answer.

Figures.

(Look at some reports on the credibility of information given from terrorist who have received such an interrogation technique and then get back to me on the success rates.)

[cutthemdown]

you win by breaking the enemies will or ability to fight. Same as it has always been. Nazism was an ideology. We didn't stamp out that ideology we broke it's ability and will to fight. We can do the same with Islamic terrorism.

The PC way Bush and Obama have went about it won't work. To win we have to get heavy handed.

[cutthemdown]

First off we should have seized every Iraqi oil field. You don't take over a country then not take the spoils. You fight wars like that and you will go broke.

In Afghanistan I would start letting the troops call in air strikes anytime the are under fire. If a village is Taliban just drop fuel air bombs on it. No more village problem solved. Everyone dead so no more terrorists to recruit. Move on to next village and repeat.

[Requiem]

you win by breaking the enemies will or ability to fight. Same as it has always been. Nazism was an ideology. We didn't stamp out that ideology we broke it's ability and will to fight. We can do the same with Islamic terrorism.

Big gap in your theory: We were able to defeat Nazi Germany through conventional warfare. Conventional warfare has not been effective in fighting enemies of this magnitude.

Do you really think that you can break the will of an enemy who is willing to die for their cause in the first place?

Deterrence really isn't a viable option here.

[cutthemdown]

Of course they won't surrender right now. We are fighting them with small arms and drones. That won't scare them enough to give up.

[cutthemdown]

Big gap in your theory: We were able to defeat Nazi Germany through conventional warfare. Conventional warfare has not been effective in fighting enemies of this magnitude.

Do you really think that you can break the will of an enemy who is willing to die for their cause in the first place?

Deterrence really isn't a viable option here.

No we defeated them by carpet bombing with fire producing incedinary bombs. Same as we did Japan. The only reason we didn't drop a nuke on Tokyo was that is was already 90 percent destroyed.

We won by not only killing the soldiers, but also the civilians that supported them. We bombed every house, every building, and watched all the cities burn.

No days we drop 500 pounders with a laser so we don't do too much damage.

Trust me we bombed those villages in Pakistan and Afghanistan like we did in ww2 and it would be over.

We had no regard for civilian life because that is the only way to really win a war.

[cutthemdown]

The only thing Muslims understand is the sword. Until we chop off it's head we won't be safe.

Fuel air bombs are plenty big. We don't need to use nukes.

[Requiem]

Ah, I see.

"The kill them all." approach.

Not reasonable or plausible this day in age.

And, "The only thing Muslims understand is the sword."

What a goonie comment.

[JJJ]

In this particular case I think the number of true believers of this cause are very small. The focus should be on the leaders and keep cutting the head off the leadership. We are still losing because there is a safe harbor in the world for these guys still in Pakistan. Until we get with the Pakistanis fully onboard and really commit to root these guys out properly this nonsense will continue.

I know someone will come in here and say it is a virtual organization and if you cut the head off it will regrow. I really don't think so, not if it is done repeatedly. This is one of the reasons the surge worked in Iraq. Each new leader of al qaeda in Iraq met his virgins and it ultimately demoralized the influx of new fighters. The same will happen in Afghanistan but you have to go to Pakistan to kill the leaders.

We can save the lives of a lot of villagers by completely focusing on the leadership. No safe haven must be the mantra. Give the Pakistani government 40B if you have to get our special forces on the ground with Pakistani troop cover and start eliminating these guys in a serious way.

[Pony Boy]

The only thing Muslims understand is the sword. Until we chop off it's head we won't be safe.

Fuel air bombs are plenty big. We don't need to use nukes.

You're wasting your time, junior will never understand this. We should learn from our mistakes in Vietnam, if our hands weren't tied we could have made a parking lot out of North Vietnam in one day and wouldn't be dealing with them today.

[cutthemdown]

You're wasting your time, junior will never understand this. We should learn from our mistakes in Vietnam, if our hands weren't tied we could have made a parking lot out of North Vietnam in one day and wouldn't be dealing with them today.

Meh Vietnam not bad. The are very rural but not a thorn for the USA at all. If anything Vietnam shows how no matter what a clear winner is better. Korea where we didn't do what it took to win, country was split in 2, is a better example.

I would also support just ending this war and saying next time we get attacked we come back not caring about civilian deaths.

I agree that in todays day and age, with wars being so PC, we may be better off just attacking the leaders, main players every few months. The long drawn out ground war is stupid if we aren't going to just scorch the earth before we send them in.

This send then into a village and see who shoots at them is pretty lame.

We probably can't win like this so it would be a lot cheaper to just draw it down. Then just keep bombing them anytime they come out of a cave.

[baja]

you win by breaking the enemies will or ability to fight. Same as it has always been. Nazism was an ideology. We didn't stamp out that ideology we broke it's ability and will to fight. We can do the same with Islamic terrorism.

<b>The PC way Bush and Obama have went about it won't work.</b> To win we have to get heavy handed.

Congrats cut that has to be the most outrageous statement I have read here in 10 years.<b> Bush was PC</b> OMG. Bush acted no better than the terrorists he wanted us to believe he was fighting.

[cutthemdown]

Ah, I see.

"The kill them all." approach.

Not reasonable or plausible this day in age.

And, "The only thing Muslims understand is the sword."

What a goonie comment.

Well you brought up ww2 it's not like that is soooo long ago. Big deal 50-60 yrs. The point stands that back then a Japanese civilian, a a German civilian, would not be safe in a church, a house, whatever. If there was military in your town the whole place was getting bombed. Now days they hide amongst them and instead of bombing them all, and letting Allah sort them out, we sort of send in soldiers to slowly move in, rooting them out, talking to civilians who lie to them, etc etc.

Your right that is crazy and we can never win with the current military strategy.

[Requiem]

No, I would never advocate killing of civilians.

[TDmvp]

Ah, I see.

"The kill them all." approach.

Not reasonable or plausible this day in age.

And, "The only thing Muslims understand is the sword."

What a goonie comment.



Ok LET ME START BY SAYING I'm neutral in this post and just posting history , and what I was told and not saying I agree or think it would work in this day in age like Requiem said , or posting my opinion on how I think we should deal with it , because thread aint about that topic , and we are drifting OT but o well.


But the thing Cut said about the only thing the Muslims understand is the sword .

Friend of mine is a big history buff , and not a religious guy by no means so doesn't really have a agenda that i can see ...

But when me and him talk about our current middle east issues with places we are actually fighting

But he always says when a group from that area of the world wants to fight you there is zero negotiating with them and most countries that has tried has failed through out history... If they want to fight you , they want you dead not compliant.

And when you do fight them there is no going half way and winning verses them , most every country who tries this approach verses people from that part of the world fail. He always mentions something like , there is no honor in war with them and you have to fight them like you are trying to eliminate them to show them you will if need be and it's very savage compared to where most modern wars where there is prisoner exchanges and some compassion to fellow man , where in war with them there is none of that and they kill torture the captured to make a statement...

He always points to the only times in history anyone controlled that part of the world it was with a iron fist from a leader , or with the threat and proof of being wiped out by a military force. The first one that comes to mind is Germany , and he mentioned a couple others countries that basically took control of that area of the world but did it with the "sword"



He could be totally wrong , and I'm just posting to hear the counter points to this ... But I've heard "sorta" what Cut said when saying all they understand is the sword a few times here of late...


And Hey L.A. he's a guitarist and is nut bar like all of em are :O) ...

[Atwater 27]

Congrats cut that has to be the most outrageous statement I have read here in 10 years.<b> Bush was PC</b> OMG. Bush acted no better than the terrorists he wanted us to believe he was fighting.

Are you kidding me??? We haven't fought a war to actually WIN it since WW2.
Since then, we got all PC and soft when it came to war. Don't get me wrong, war is terrible and I don't wish it on anybody. But if you are going to go to war, fight to win. Fight General Patton style or don't fight at all.

[baja]

Are you kidding me??? We haven't fought a war to actually WIN it since WW2.
Since then, we got all PC and soft when it came to war. Don't get me wrong, war is terrible and I don't wish it on anybody. But if you are going to go to war, fight to win. Fight General Patton style or don't fight at all.

Patton didn't waterboard anyone, Bush did and he as president lied the country into war and that's just for starters.

[cutthemdown]

Patton didn't waterboard anyone, Bush did and he as president lied the country into war and that's just for starters.

Well he's no peacemaker that is for sure. Patton probably wouldn't have cared if some prisoner got waterboarded if it meant he could win a battle. Don't know that history but I did watch the movie. Seemed like he would have waterboarded lol.

The only lie I care about was then one where Cheney said we were going to get all the oil. Where is the ****ing oil!!!

[TonyR]

you win by breaking the enemies will or ability to fight. Same as it has always been. Nazism was an ideology. We didn't stamp out that ideology we broke it's ability and will to fight. We can do the same with Islamic terrorism.

Any attempt to compare Nazism with today's Islamist radicals is preposterous. There's no comparison. Not only are they different in more ways than they're alike but Islamist terror isn't nearly the threat that Nazism was. The situations really couldn't be more different.

[Atwater 27]

Patton didn't waterboard anyone, Bush did and he as president lied the country into war and that's just for starters.

That's funny. You cry about waterboarding, but don't care if they are slaughtered instead. LMAO...

[baja]

That's funny. You cry about waterboarding, but don't care if they are slaughtered instead. LMAO...

I don't care if who is slaughtered?

[barryr]

Somehow liberals think the world wars were won on a chessboard or something. Newsflash: some very unsavory things were done to win those wars. Oh no, three murdering terrorists were waterboarded to give up info. on future attacks. The horror. Don't infringe on their rights to help kill people. Grow up.

[TailgateNut]

Somehow liberals think the world wars were won on a chessboard or something. Newsflash: some very unsavory things were done to win those wars. Oh no, three murdering terrorists were waterboarded to give up info. on future attacks. The horror. Don't infringe on their rights to help kill people. Grow up.

**** you, you pissant. This liberal knows that wars are ugly and many of the things that happen are ugly as hell, but to sponsor war crimes isn't what our country stands for (at least until your Hero decided he would just ignore the Geneva convention.)

[Atwater 27]

In case none of you libs don't know, we have tortured since our inception. The things that we don't know happened in the past and are probably still happening would make waterboarding look like a tropical vacation. Stop this lame song and dance that Bush/Cheney are somehow the masters of torture techniques. No, they are simply the first administration in the new era of information and leaks that has been exposed as using the techniques.

I'll tell you what.... Waterboarding still beats the hell out of this....http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_8t59jorH2DM/R0fHPEojnFI/AAAAAAAABNY/EOXmxfsUzpE/s400/Paul+Johnson+Beheading.jpg

But I'll leave it to the libs to cry about waterboarding while being mum about our enemies treatment of captured prisoners....

[barryr]

**** you, you pissant. This liberal knows that wars are ugly and many of the things that happen are ugly as hell, but to sponsor war crimes isn't what our country stands for (at least until your Hero decided he would just ignore the Geneva convention.)

LOL, more name calling from the likes of you. How unusual. You are sure to ignore and appease terrorists that do them.

[Requiem]

Waterboarding violates multiple codes of law, our own and international law. Not only that, various intelligence reports and analysis from high ranking officials have shown that using such a technique does not provide as good of information or even remotely close to its legal counterparts.

[Spider]

How about just white men get all the women.
greedy bastard ..... but ok;D

[Dukes]

Patton didn't waterboard anyone, Bush did and he as president lied the country into war and that's just for starters.

That's because he killed the ****ers or sent them back to the states at POW's

[cutthemdown]

Waterboarding just doesn't seem that bad to me. It's probably something we have all experienced. Like when your in the ocean and a wave knocks you down over and over, the terror maybe you won't come up, then you pop up and are fine. But while you are rolling around on the bottom of the ocean, feeling that you have no breath left, one more wave and your going to drown, I bet right then to be safe you would tell anyone just about anything.

If they lie and the information isn't good then move on to another prisoner and don't use that one anymore. Send him to some dark cell with nothing but bread and water for the rest of his life.

[cutthemdown]

greedy bastard ..... but ok;D

I met a really cute black girl the other night at a gig who was amazing. I have a G/F though so couldn't ask her out. She could also sing really well which is always a turn on for me.

[cutthemdown]

**** you, you pissant. This liberal knows that wars are ugly and many of the things that happen are ugly as hell, but to sponsor war crimes isn't what our country stands for (at least until your Hero decided he would just ignore the Geneva convention.)

Well what we stand for and what we have done during war don't always mesh up. Why is that? Because our leaders wanted to win those wars and knew it was the only way.

Do you think Americans in ww2 would have cared much about waterboarding? Considering Japanese were using civilians for bayonet practice in indochina? Considering Nazis were gassing Jews etc etc.

During dday as our troops finally broke off the beach they were shooting everyone. They didn't start taking prisoners until they calmed down and order was restored to the command structure. War is hell and I don't hold any American accountable for whatever they have to do to survive and win the thing.

If it means some waterboarding so be it. I bet they are still doing it but now they just make sure no one hears about it.

[cutthemdown]

I could see the CIA and military saying what Obama doesn't know wont hurt him. Not the high ups, but for sure some guys on the ground, need some info to help your troops, you will do what you have to even if it means sticking a rifle in someones mouth and asking not so nicely to talk.

[Spider]

I met a really cute black girl the other night at a gig who was amazing. I have a G/F though so couldn't ask her out. She could also sing really well which is always a turn on for me.

ask her ,just dont let the g/f know...... ;D I have been on a few Dates,moved one in with me , and see the other in Cheyenne :wiggle:

[Spider]

Andwhat ever you do ........Dont take the date to the same place you take the girlfriend .... trust me on this

[cutthemdown]

Naw when I make a commitment I like to keep it. No reason to date anymore when you got a killer woman already.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Iran being a governed theocracy does not mean by virtue the youth of that country are not for Pro-Western ideals.

The youth in Iran are very Pro-West. There are a lot of scholarly journal articles and various editorials that point this out. I'd be glad to share some with you if you would like, BB.Just like Saudi Arabia, a certain percentage of Iran youth like some aspects of "American Freedoms". But they almost ALL answer the 4-5 times of daily prayer mantra dictated by religious leaders. In fact, S.A. has more freedom of press than Iran does.
I just got home from the M.E. and it was quite the learning experience.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

you win by breaking the enemies will or ability to fight. Same as it has always been.Geeeezus, where do you get your military history from? We are fighting non uniformed "soldiers" and fighting an entire citizenry in every one of these countries. It is IMPOSSIBLE to "win" these type of nation building experiments and always will be.
The only thing Muslims understand is the sword. Nice, stereotyping over 1 billion people, all who need to be killed. I shouldn't be surprised I guess, pretty typical of most Right Wing thinking.

[baja]

Geeeezus, where do you get your military history from? We are fighting non uniformed "soldiers" and fighting an entire citizenry in every one of these countries. It is IMPOSSIBLE to "win" these type of nation building experiments and always will be.
<b> Nice, stereotyping over 1 billion people, all who need to be killed. I shouldn't be surprised I guess, pretty typical of most Right Wing thinking.

There's a % of people on both sides that believe that way, unfortunately they are the same ones that are the loudest and most aggressive therefore they drag all the rest of us into these horrible wars that never end just the name and location changes.

[gyldenlove]

In case none of you libs don't know, we have tortured since our inception. The things that we don't know happened in the past and are probably still happening would make waterboarding look like a tropical vacation. Stop this lame song and dance that Bush/Cheney are somehow the masters of torture techniques. No, they are simply the first administration in the new era of information and leaks that has been exposed as using the techniques.

I'll tell you what.... Waterboarding still beats the hell out of this....http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_8t59jorH2DM/R0fHPEojnFI/AAAAAAAABNY/EOXmxfsUzpE/s400/Paul+Johnson+Beheading.jpg

But I'll leave it to the libs to cry about waterboarding while being mum about our enemies treatment of captured prisoners....

If you want to bring democracy and peace to the world, then do so. If all you want to do is detain brown people outside the reach of law, then there are easier ways to do so, and frankly ways that won't waste as many thousands of American lives.

Bush got caught with his fingers in the cookie jar and now the people who for reasons not explicably by sience or reason deified him are stuck trying to justify what he did. Fact is his war has killed going on 10.000 Americans (already beating out the twin towers by a few 1000), has wounded and maimed uncounted young American troups and civilians and he produced nothing except a huge budget deficit. The world isn't safer, there is no more democracy in the middle east now than there ever was, hell if you consider the turn Pakistan has taken you could argue there is less and now you guys are stuck with 500 angry arabs you have tortured and detained without trial.

Accept it, Bush ****ed up big time and lucky for him he gets to laugh his ass off down there in Texas while he watches the rest of your tax paying stiffs clean up the enormous **** sandwich he left on the table when he had eaten all the good stuff.

The office of president has lost all honor and dignity, it used to be you could bomb a brown country if you wanted to and nobody would be the wiser as long as you allegedly slept with an actress (or someone else did). Now a days the media is too connected, and ****ups get out, Bush isn't the first president to do this, he probably won't be the last, but he was the first one who not only got caught torturing people, but also the first one to admit to doing so - and some would say that torture is illegal in the US.

[Atwater 27]

If you want to bring democracy and peace to the world, then do so. If all you want to do is detain brown people outside the reach of law, then there are easier ways to do so, and frankly ways that won't waste as many thousands of American lives.

Bush got caught with his fingers in the cookie jar and now the people who for reasons not explicably by sience or reason deified him are stuck trying to justify what he did. Fact is his war has killed going on 10.000 Americans (already beating out the twin towers by a few 1000), has wounded and maimed uncounted young American troups and civilians and he produced nothing except a huge budget deficit. The world isn't safer, there is no more democracy in the middle east now than there ever was, hell if you consider the turn Pakistan has taken you could argue there is less and now you guys are stuck with 500 angry arabs you have tortured and detained without trial.

Accept it, Bush ****ed up big time and lucky for him he gets to laugh his ass off down there in Texas while he watches the rest of your tax paying stiffs clean up the enormous **** sandwich he left on the table when he had eaten all the good stuff.

The office of president has lost all honor and dignity, it used to be you could bomb a brown country if you wanted to and nobody would be the wiser as long as you allegedly slept with an actress (or someone else did). Now a days the media is too connected, and ****ups get out, Bush isn't the first president to do this, he probably won't be the last, but he was the first one who not only got caught torturing people, but also the first one to admit to doing so - and some would say that torture is illegal in the US.

what's this 'brown country' bull****? You lost me.

[TailgateNut]

what's this 'brown country' bull****? You lost me.

Not too difficult to do.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Ok what a fraud you are. Do you only start posts about subjects you deeply care about? Or will you start a thread that makes fun, or pokes fun at conservatives?

Poking fun at the way someone votes is one thing. Poking fun at people on the basis of race is quite another - not that I would expect you to understand or care about the difference.

You started this thread because you knew you'd be able to get plenty of your fellow right-wing, racist jackals to co-sign it.


You are right about one thing though..... I did know this thread would piss you off because it failed to blame the man for all your problems.

What does this thread have to do with my problems?

Are you insinuating this because you think I'm black?

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

**** you, you pissant. This liberal knows that wars are ugly and many of the things that happen are ugly as hell, but to sponsor war crimes isn't what our country stands for (at least until your Hero decided he would just ignore the Geneva convention.)

Winner. :thumbsup:

http://www.bartcop.com/bush-admits-war_criminal.jpg

[epicSocialism4tw]

Winner.

http://www.bartcop.com/bush-admits-war_criminal.jpg

Dude, posting Bush cartoons isnt helping you or your cause.

It makes you look like even more of a sore loser than you did before your party got crushed by the people in this last election.

[TonyR]

"I think there is both a moral reason for being opposed to torture – and Britain doesn't sanction torture – but secondly I think there's also an effectiveness thing ... if you look at the effect of Guantánamo Bay and other things like that, long-term that has actually helped to radicalise people and make our country and our world less safe. So I don't agree," - David Cameron, challenging George W. Bush's absurd claims that torture is legal and saves lives.

[Dukes]

"I think there is both a moral reason for being opposed to torture – and Britain doesn't sanction torture – but secondly I think there's also an effectiveness thing ... if you look at the effect of Guantánamo Bay and other things like that, long-term that has actually helped to radicalise people and make our country and our world less safe. So I don't agree," - David Cameron, challenging George W. Bush's absurd claims that torture is legal and saves lives.

It has the potential to save lives, but it's not worth it for reasons expressed in the quote.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Dude, posting Bush cartoons isnt helping you or your cause.

Dance, monkey, dance! :welcome:

It makes you look like even more of a sore loser than you did before your party got crushed by the people in this last election.

Suggesting that a war criminal shouldn't escape accountability for his crimes makes one a "sore loser?"

Thanks for showing us how your sociopathic mind works.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Dance, monkey, dance!

Suggesting that a war criminal shouldn't escape accountability for his crimes makes one a "sore loser?"

Thanks for showing us how your sociopathic mind works.

More deflection, more spin.

Check the Nov. 2 scoreboard.