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View Full Version : Why is the O line so bad and seemingly getting worse?


baja
11-05-2010, 09:59 AM
We had a pretty good pass protect O line the first part of the season but defenses have figured out how to pressure Orton. Now we have a poor O line for the run & the pass.

Please share you thoughts as to why this is

Please resist the McDaniels sucks retorts and give your best well reasoned take.

baja
11-05-2010, 10:01 AM
Why have good O line men turned into poor O line men?

Rabb
11-05-2010, 10:05 AM
it's coaching, and not even McDaniels necessarily...but it's coaching

I think we need a veteran Oline coach to work with the mix of young guys and vets that we have to make it work

we have the talent

Popps
11-05-2010, 10:10 AM
Well, besides McDaniels being satan reincarnate... I actually think the line did a better job run-blocking last game. Not great, but better.

The pass protection has been up and down all year. Great against Indy, horrible against the Raiders and not great last week.

I'm not sure it's gotten any worse, but it's certainly been a slow improvement, if any.

It's the same old answer. You've got your best linemen limping around... Harris is gone and now you're looking at two snot-nosed kids and a journeyman back-up out there. I also feel like the jury is out on Kuper with regard to this blocking scheme.

Like the D line, I really wish we would have brought in an established FA... even at a high price. Hopefully we will this off-season.

bronco militia
11-05-2010, 10:13 AM
2 rookies...injuries...terrible play calling

jhns
11-05-2010, 10:15 AM
The Patriot run scheme is not that great anyways. We don't have the linemen to run it so we make it look even worse. I have no idea how we can be by far the worst rushing team in the league.

The pass protection is bad for many reasons. We pass like 152 times a game. That allows defenders to tee off on the QB. This makes the problem of a QB that doesn't manipulate a pocket correctly into an even bigger problem. People may not think the QB has much to do with it but there is a reason our pass protection instantly got worse even though they were great in pass pro before Orton. To get a good picture of what I am talking about, you can look at the Patriots. They were great in pass protection and then Brady went down. They then gave up 50 sacks the season Cassel played. Now they are good again. It isn't like they redid the line each of these years. Orton does seem to be much improved in this area but we won't be a line giving up the fewest sacks in the league with him. He really needs the threar of a good run game if he doesn't want to get hit all the time. I am impressed with how they make defenses bite on play actions and such though. I don't get it but it works.

baja
11-05-2010, 10:16 AM
Well, besides McDaniels being satan reincarnate... I actually think the line did a better job run-blocking last game. Not great, but better.

The pass protection has been up and down all year. Great against Indy, horrible against the Raiders and not great last week.

I'm not sure it's gotten any worse, but it's certainly been a slow improvement, if any.

It's the same old answer. You've got your best linemen limping around... Harris is gone and<b> now you're looking at two snot-nosed kids </b>and a journeyman back-up out there. I also feel like the jury is out on Kuper with regard to this blocking scheme.

Like the D line, I really wish we would have brought in an established FA... even at a high price. Hopefully we will this off-season.

I question why we left ourselves with no options other than two rookies starting

Rascal
11-05-2010, 10:17 AM
Teams studied film and saw our weaknesses and are exploiting them. I don't know how many times I've seen opposing defenses run a twist and the line don't recognize it.

vancejohnson82
11-05-2010, 10:19 AM
they played well in the Jets game too...

something just went sour after that

baja
11-05-2010, 10:19 AM
The Patriot run scheme is not that great anyways. We don't have the linemen to run it so we make it look even worse. I have no idea how we can be by far the worst rushing team in the league.

The pass protection is bad for many reasons. We pass like 152 times a game. That allows defenders to tee off on the QB. This makes the problem of a QB that doesn't manipulate a pocket correctly into an even bigger problem. People may not think the QB has much to do with it but there is a reason our pass protection instantly got worse even though they were great in pass pro before Orton. To get a good picture of what I am talking about, you can look at the Patriots. They were great in pass protection and then Brady went down. They then gave up 50 sacks the season Cassel played. Now they are good again. It isn't like they redid the line each of these years. Orton does seem to be much improved in this area but we won't be a line giving up the fewest sacks in the league with him. He really needs the threar of a good run game if he doesn't want to get hit all the time. I am impressed with how they make defenses bite on play actions and such though. I don't get it but it works.

Orton enjoyed good pass protection early in the season and he's the same guy now as then. The DPO makes a case that the Titans figured out how to pressure Orton and every team sense has copied that plan.

Mile High Shack
11-05-2010, 10:21 AM
Teams studied film and saw our weaknesses and are exploiting them. I don't know how many times I've seen opposing defenses run a twist and the line don't recognize it.

coaching and injuries

baja
11-05-2010, 10:22 AM
Teams studied film and saw our weaknesses and are exploiting them. I don't know how many times I've seen opposing defenses run a twist and the line don't recognize it.

This is what I am seeing too. Question becomes can we adjust without a running threat? This leads to the question can we establish a running thread with the players we got through coaching and scheming?

baja
11-05-2010, 10:24 AM
Other teams are starting linemen we cut and they manage a decent running game, what's this say?

baja
11-05-2010, 10:25 AM
If we don't fix the O line we are going nowhere. How do we fix the line?

Rabb
11-05-2010, 10:25 AM
This is what I am seeing too. Question becomes can we adjust without a running threat? This leads to the question can we establish a running thread with the players we got through coaching and scheming?

that's what I worry about, it's like the catch 22 from hell with us

I know it's off topic and not apples to apples but as a Hawkeye, I appreciate what our coach did to build our team up...he starts with both lines and works his way out

vanbrugh
11-05-2010, 10:33 AM
This oline has the lowest combined number of starts in the NFL. This combined with injuries and a rookie learning curve is costing us at the moment. Hopefully Harris can return to RT leaving beadles free to go to LG because while i understand that Hochstein is helping out the calls at center his penalties and mistakes are KILLING US!

Popps
11-05-2010, 10:33 AM
If we don't fix the O line we are going nowhere. How do we fix the line?

One way is to just play-call around it, to an extent. That works for a while.
Getting the ball out of Kyle's hands early when need be... running from passing formations, etc.

But ultimately, you've got to be able to out-muscle someone on 3rd and short. We just can't, yet.

baja
11-05-2010, 10:35 AM
One way is to just play-call around it, to an extent. That works for a while.
Getting the ball out of Kyle's hands early when need be... running from passing formations, etc.

But ultimately, you've got to be able to out-muscle someone on 3rd and short. We just can't, yet.

Do you feel that O line coaching has adjusted in a timely manner?

Ray Finkle
11-05-2010, 10:40 AM
Do you feel that O line coaching has adjusted in a timely manner?

it's a work in progress....let's see how they finish the season. If no progress has been made, I am all for brining in some new OL coaches/Front office Advisor.

Popps
11-05-2010, 10:46 AM
Do you feel that O line coaching has adjusted in a timely manner?

I don't know. 99% of us on message boards really aren't qualified to dissect positional coaching. But, it sure doesn't look like guys are holding their blocks... picking up blitzers when they should, lining up properly, etc. I'd say this is likely more a talent issue, but coaching has to be part of it.

The other issue is, we don't have a scheme to hide flaws like we used to. The ZBS made average linemen look great... until it was time to pass-block or run on short yardage.

In our current scheme, it's a lot more about being able to beat the guy in front of you and hold blocks. I think ULTIMATELY, that gives you more control and flexibility as a team. The ZBS has limitations. I'd like to see us be able to just maul opposing teams up front. But, you've got to have the talent and coaching to do that. This is a definite work in progress for us.

baja
11-05-2010, 10:49 AM
We had good ZBS players. Was it a bad coaching decision to switch over to power blocking so soon? Would it have been better to stick with the ZBS until we had the horses to play the power scheme?

enjolras
11-05-2010, 11:01 AM
Baja: Sometimes you have to just take your medicine. This is what rebuilding looks like. I know we haven't seen a lot of it as Broncos fans (which is why we haven't been anything but mediocre for so long), but it's how you get truly better.

We clearly need a right tackle that can stay healthy. Until then Beadles is going to be held for that position and that means Hochstein continues to play. As long as Hochstein is in, we're going to be awful up front.

baja
11-05-2010, 11:05 AM
Baja: Sometimes you have to just take your medicine. This is what rebuilding looks like. I know we haven't seen a lot of it as Broncos fans (which is why we haven't been anything but mediocre for so long), but it's how you get truly better.

We clearly need a right tackle that can stay healthy. Until then Beadles is going to be held for that position and that means Hochstein continues to play. As long as Hochstein is in, we're going to be awful up front.

I think you are correct enjolras but I find myself having more and more questions with each passing game. Let me be quick to say I am in no way ready to call for a new HC

bloodsunday
11-05-2010, 11:08 AM
Orton enjoyed good pass protection early in the season and he's the same guy now as then. The DPO makes a case that the Titans figured out how to pressure Orton and every team sense has copied that plan.

Yup. It's a copy cat league. When you are a one-trick pony, teams will eventually figure you out. That's why the team fell off so markedly last year -- Baltimore put the blue print out there.

Unless you can simply out-execute or find another way to attack opponents, you'll struggle down the stretch. Personally this is part of the reason I think the entire Denver organization has struggled for a decade -- we don't have the horses (pun intended) to out-execute our opponents in November and December. We rely on out-coaching and out-scheming early in the year (this year aside).

bloodsunday
11-05-2010, 11:13 AM
One way is to just play-call around it, to an extent. That works for a while.
Getting the ball out of Kyle's hands early when need be... running from passing formations, etc.

But ultimately, you've got to be able to out-muscle someone on 3rd and short. We just can't, yet.

Usually out-coaching teams can be done earlier in the season -- at least in these parts. November and December are when you need to be able to out-execute your opponents because they already know what you are going to do, your strengths and your weaknesses. Denver has not been able to out-execute teams for close to a decade, largely because we don't have the talent at the line of scrimmage to do so IMHO. We are consistently beat in the middle of the field on both sides of the ball, and that is the surest way to lose football games. The level of play from the interior OL, DL, LB, and safeties is collectively among the worst in the NFL and has been for a while.

bloodsunday
11-05-2010, 11:24 AM
I question why we left ourselves with no options other than two rookies starting

Well, Harris looked like the entrenched starter at RG. He has struggled with health and possibly with McD's system. That's 1 rookie that wouldn't have had to start.

We lost Kuper to some injuries early in the year, that didn't help. But it gave us a look at Beadles and Walton -- enough to determine how we could do with them.

And, historically OL is a position that players from college can step right into the NFL and contribute.

Ray Finkle
11-05-2010, 11:30 AM
Well, Harris looked like the entrenched starter at RG. He has struggled with health and possibly with McD's system. That's 1 rookie that wouldn't have had to start.

We lost Kuper to some injuries early in the year, that didn't help. But it gave us a look at Beadles and Walton -- enough to determine how we could do with them.

And, historically OL is a position that players from college can step right into the NFL and contribute.

he was playing at a high level before the injury. Toe injuries take a long time to recover from.

gyldenlove
11-05-2010, 11:31 AM
I see 3 problems.

1 is injury, Clady missed the entire offseason which means he wasn't ready to go early and had to try to come on while playing injured, this also means we lined up people out of position in preseason and training camp and that influences the rythm of the whole unit, Harris was injured as well.

2 is lack of talent, there is no denying that Hochstein is not the 2nd coming of Hutchinson or Brian Waters, Walton is also looking like he is very far from being starter material.

3 is coaching, the Titans beat us silly using stunts and delayed rushes, every team since then has pretty much done the same thing, the 49ers did it, the Raiders did it, and our offensive line coaches have not done anything to stop that. In terms of run blocking problems I would say a lot of our problems come from play calling, early in the year we were extremely predictable in run situations which meant we were facing consistent 8 and 9 man fronts, we have also been calling a relatively high number of runs that rely on offensive linemen engaging and holding their blocks while the runner moves laterally, this is always going to end badly when your blockers are not performing.

Right now the coaching is definitely the easiest part to fix and I believe it is the most vital thing to fix. It looks like a number of teams may be looking for new coaches next season including the 49ers, Cowboys and maybe even Vikings and Browns, I hope we can find a decent OL coach and a defensive coordinator among the staff that will be made available from those moves.

Rock Chalk
11-05-2010, 11:41 AM
Im still trying to figure out in the hell our team keeps fooling other teams on play action. WE DONT ****ING RUN yet teams fall for it almost every damn time.

baja
11-05-2010, 11:46 AM
They probably think they gotta run this time.

Beantown Bronco
11-05-2010, 11:49 AM
Im still trying to figure out in the hell our team keeps fooling other teams on play action. WE DONT ****ING RUN yet teams fall for it almost every damn time.

Yup. And, building off that, why don't we do it MORE, particularly on 3rd and short when the other teams seem to sell out to stop our runs up the middle/between the tackles? The old favorite "Jake Plummer roll out/short pass to the flat" seems to be there for the taking pretty much every time.

mkporter
11-05-2010, 12:01 PM
We had a pretty good pass protect O line the first part of the season but defenses have figured out how to pressure Orton. Now we have a poor O line for the run & the pass.

Please share you thoughts as to why this is

Please resist the McDaniels sucks retorts and give your best well reasoned take.

I'm not sure that our O-line was all that good in pass protection early in the season. Orton didn't get sacked a lot, but he was still pressured pretty heavily. I agree that now that there is some tape on us, our weaknesses have become pretty apparent.

Clady is obviously not right physically yet, he's not awful, but he doesn't seem to be anywhere near his usual level. He's been beat around the edge an awful lot this year. We are also generally doing a poor job of recognizing where the rushers are coming from. That is a coaching/experience issue. Hopefully we will improve in that respect, but if we aren't noticeably better by the end of the year at recognizing rushes, I think an Oline coaching change is worth considering.

mkporter
11-05-2010, 12:03 PM
Im still trying to figure out in the hell our team keeps fooling other teams on play action. WE DONT ****ING RUN yet teams fall for it almost every damn time.

I think the defensive players get really excited when they see run, because they know they'll be able to make a big play.

BlaK-Argentina
11-05-2010, 12:11 PM
I think the defensive players get really excited when they see run, because they know they'll be able to make a big play.

LOL I actually thought the same thing. It's like they're thinking: "Oooh it's a run! Tackle for a loss here I come!" and they all go for it.

TonyR
11-05-2010, 12:17 PM
But ultimately, you've got to be able to out-muscle someone on 3rd and short. We just can't, yet.

This is where I am. Injuries, youth, coaching/sheme/play calling, and cohesiveness are all factors but at some point you just have to beat the guy across from you. Clearly our guys aren't doing that on anything approaching a consistent basis and that is very troubling.

Where's kupesdad? I know there's limits on what he can and will say but I'd love him to give us what perspective he can. I fear the fact that he's not posting at all might mean we don't want to hear what he has to say...

gyldenlove
11-05-2010, 12:27 PM
Im still trying to figure out in the hell our team keeps fooling other teams on play action. WE DONT ****ING RUN yet teams fall for it almost every damn time.

Football players are not exactly the brightest bulbs.

TheChamp24
11-05-2010, 02:04 PM
Im still trying to figure out in the hell our team keeps fooling other teams on play action. WE DONT ****ING RUN yet teams fall for it almost every damn time.

Reminds me of the Madden video game where it could be 3rd and 20 and you could fool the defense with a play action pass for 25 yards.

DawnBTVS
11-05-2010, 02:12 PM
Im still trying to figure out in the hell our team keeps fooling other teams on play action. WE DONT ****ING RUN yet teams fall for it almost every damn time.

I find this remarkable as well. Some of it I think just has to be on the shoulders of Orton in terms of being able to fake the hand off enough to draw the defense.

As far as the offensive line... it's all about experience.

Everybody should have known and accepted it would be growing pains this year.

If you look at the 1995 Broncos OL when Shanahan first came in
- Gary Zimmerman: Had started with Denver since 1993.
- Mark Schlereth: 1st year with Denver. Had started games for 6 years with Washington.
- Tom Nalen: Started 1 game in 1994 with Denver.
- Brian Habib: Had started with Denver since 1993.
- Broderick Thompson: 1st year with Denver. Had started games for 7 years prior with San Diego and Philadelphia.

Again, most of those guys were experienced either in Denver or starting in the NFL in general.

- Zane Beadles, J.D. Walton, and Eric Olsen are all rookies. Chris Clark and Stanley Daniels are essentially rookies. That's a whopping 5 OL.
- Ryan Clady is still young, having started only 2 years prior.
- Ryan Harris is still young, having started 16 games in 2008 and 8 last year.
- Russ Hochstein has the most experience in terms of years but has started sporadically, never more than 8 games until 2009.
- Chris Kuper has started 3 years prior to this season.

It's growing pains and it won't suddenly vanish in a week, two weeks, or three weeks. Fact is that Denver has an extremely young OL in terms of experience and no amount of coaching will change what game experience provides. I think as fans, you literally have to wait until next year to start seeing some of cohesion unit wise that you're expecting. If you're expecting OL dominance comparable to the late 90's Broncos, it won't happen anytime soon.

Eldorado
11-05-2010, 02:17 PM
I find this remarkable as well. Some of it I think just has to be on the shoulders of Orton in terms of being able to fake the hand off enough to draw the defense.

As far as the offensive line... it's all about experience.

Everybody should have known and accepted it would be growing pains this year.

If you look at the 1995 Broncos OL when Shanahan first came in
- Gary Zimmerman: Had started with Denver since 1993.
- Mark Schlereth: 1st year with Denver. Had started games for 6 years with Washington.
- Tom Nalen: Started 1 game in 1994 with Denver.
- Brian Habib: Had started with Denver since 1993.
- Broderick Thompson: 1st year with Denver. Had started games for 7 years prior with San Diego and Philadelphia.

Again, most of those guys were experienced either in Denver or starting in the NFL in general.

- Zane Beadles, J.D. Walton, and Eric Olsen are all rookies. Chris Clark and Stanley Daniels are essentially rookies. That's a whopping 5 OL.
- Ryan Clady is still young, having started only 2 years prior.
- Ryan Harris is still young, having started 16 games in 2008 and 8 last year.
- Russ Hochstein has the most experience in terms of years but has started sporadically, never more than 8 games until 2009.
- Chris Kuper has started 3 years prior to this season.

It's growing pains and it won't suddenly vanish in a week, two weeks, or three weeks. Fact is that Denver has an extremely young OL in terms of experience and no amount of coaching will change what game experience provides. I think as fans, you literally have to wait until next year to start seeing some of cohesion unit wise that you're expecting. If you're expecting OL dominance comparable to the late 90's Broncos, it won't happen anytime soon.

rep

Hulamau
11-05-2010, 02:43 PM
If we don't fix the O line we are going nowhere. How do we fix the line?

It is part personnel, part injuries and part coaching and the revolving door until recently on the line with some tired and banged up rookies who played the entire game every game in preseason and for the most par thave the first half of the year too.

This bye was crucial and hopefully they all come out rested focussed and ready to rumble for 60+ minutes to get it done next Sunday.

A home victory against the Redbirds would go a long way toward at least stopping the free fall.

bendog
11-05-2010, 02:50 PM
McDaniels failed to improve the line in his first draft, and inexpicably actually drafted finesse types while saying he wanted a "power" game. But, assuming Clady will be back next year, I really think the team has 4 guys who are not on the physical decline and who may be good. I never really thought much of Harris coming out of college because he played soft and had injury concerns beyond that he seemed versitile and would be a good backup type.

Blueflame
11-05-2010, 03:12 PM
This is where I am. Injuries, youth, coaching/sheme/play calling, and cohesiveness are all factors but at some point you just have to beat the guy across from you. Clearly our guys aren't doing that on anything approaching a consistent basis and that is very troubling.

Where's kupesdad? I know there's limits on what he can and will say but I'd love him to give us what perspective he can. I fear the fact that he's not posting at all might mean we don't want to hear what he has to say...

Who can blame Kupesdad if he's keeping his opinions to himself right now? There was at least one poster (can't remember offhand who it was) that was very rude to him recently. He's a father who loves his son.

Hulamau
11-05-2010, 08:25 PM
Baja: Sometimes you have to just take your medicine. This is what rebuilding looks like. I know we haven't seen a lot of it as Broncos fans (which is why we haven't been anything but mediocre for so long), but it's how you get truly better.

We clearly need a right tackle that can stay healthy. Until then Beadles is going to be held for that position and that means Hochstein continues to play. As long as Hochstein is in, we're going to be awful up front.

Good post enjorlas!

oubronco
11-05-2010, 08:33 PM
Other teams are starting linemen we cut and they manage a decent running game, what's this say?

That the O-line coach sucks big hairy balls

cutthemdown
11-05-2010, 09:47 PM
The oline is bad because.

1- Clady had a really bad injury and probably wont get his fluidity back until close to the end of this yr. Those type of things take a yr to feel right.

2- The rookie center isn't very good. Even good players need time to learn center so maybe he has upside but he looks weak to me.

3- the only good guard we had last yr, Kuper, is having a bad yr. Maybe the contract, getting married, the upheaval on the line made it a tough yr for him to stay focused. I think he is still a good player in the NFL.

4- The other guard spot is weak. Hochstien is a journeyman and the rookie looks avg.

5-The RT, Harris has been injured all yr and might just not be that good to begin with. Seems like he has regressed.

fontaine
11-06-2010, 06:49 AM
We had a pretty good pass protect O line the first part of the season but defenses have figured out how to pressure Orton. Now we have a poor O line for the run & the pass.

Please share you thoughts as to why this is.

It's not just one or two things. It's everything.

- Injuries across the board, especially in preseason when you get the most time to work on new systems/schemes.
- rookies playing and failure of the GM/McDaniels to have a veteran Center to at least compete
- Expecting practice squad types like Baptiste/Daniels to start or even be backups.
- Injured RBs and very poor instincts from Maroney.
- Unbalanced and pass happy playcalling even when games are close.
- Interior of the line, especially Walton not being able to handle stunts, blitzing LBers.
- Kuper/Harris/Clady struggling with a power scheme.
- No more Turner/Dennison


Can't really fault Harris/Clady as they've been injured and Clady still doesn't have much knee bend.

But the coaching needs to get better, the playcalling needs to stop being so one sided, RBs need to be better coached and commit to a lane early, we'll still need a veteran Center/Guard next year etc - These are ALL things we can control and influence.

Injuries? We can't.

CEH
11-06-2010, 07:33 AM
But the coaching needs to get better, the playcalling needs to stop being so one sided, RBs need to be better coached and commit to a lane early, we'll still need a veteran Center/Guard next year etc - These are ALL things we can control and influence.

Injuries? We can't.

This is was irrates me about the whole coaching staff with Josh leading the charge. He is learning on our dime yet common sense says if something isn't working you need to make some sort of adjustment in season to go with something else. The Indy game is a perfect example. He runs his usual off tackle running play at the goal line 4 times and I can't remember but at some point he said he wasn't going to put Tebow in on an obvious 3 down passing down. Now he's changed his mind and Tebow has scored twice. Tebow should have been part of the goal line from day one but especially after Week 3 when his team couldn't run the ball at all. Had he played Tebow who knows I bet Tim scores in the Indy game

They get an "D" for the season. The Jets game is the only reason they don't get a big fat "F"

broncswin
11-06-2010, 10:03 AM
a couple of things...we are young for one thing...defenses are putting a lot of pressure on our line until they prove themselves...we are losing and everything snowballs if not corrected in a hurry(coaching all around)...the final and most glaring problem is that WE ARE NOT NASTY, we play powder puff out there and that just pisses me off...Godda*it I hate losing!

go_broncos
11-06-2010, 10:10 AM
a couple of things...we are young for one thing...defenses are putting a lot of pressure on our line until they prove themselves...we are losing and everything snowballs if not corrected in a hurry(coaching all around)...the final and most glaring problem is that WE ARE NOT NASTY, we play powder puff out there and that just pisses me off...Godda*it I hate losing!

Generally, I hate bye week.
Not this time..I am relieved that we will not be playing this week.
At least, we will not lose this weekend.

CEH
11-06-2010, 10:16 AM
Generally, I hate bye week.
Not this time..I am relieved that we will not be playing this week.
At least, we will not lose this weekend.

The problem is we are not going to import Pro Bowl players during the bye and we play 6 of the last 8 against top 12 rushing teams.

The coaches better start selling out to stop the run and put the onus on the secondary. It's not the best but I'd feeling more comfortable with CHamp, Good, Dawk and COx maybe making a play then to ask out front seven to stop the run.

tsiguy96
11-06-2010, 10:32 AM
The problem is we are not going to import Pro Bowl players during the bye and we play 6 of the last 8 against top 12 rushing teams.

The coaches better start selling out to stop the run and put the onus on the secondary. It's not the best but I'd feeling more comfortable with CHamp, Good, Dawk and COx maybe making a play then to ask out front seven to stop the run.

absolutely. id rather get beat with a quick strike through the air than 16 running plays for a TD

~Crash~
11-06-2010, 11:13 AM
At some point this Coach needs to win with what he has ! there is plenty of talent ! and popps stop making excuses for our TE Opps I meant OL Coach ! I am fine with our OL Coach, keep him and bring in Alex Gibbs 2 or 3 days a week and let him help out OL Coach get what he needs to learn to make the little adjustments the make our OL the studs we got . I do not accept the throw away mode the team and the fans have fell into every time there is a small problems !!! Harris probably needs to be moved to LG if he is now to slow for what ever the reason is He is our Best Run Blocker . I have to wonder if his big toe is still his reason why because before that injuries he was our best OL if you look at the fist 6 games he was kicking ass last year !

cutthemdown
11-06-2010, 12:44 PM
At some point this Coach needs to win with what he has ! there is plenty of talent ! and popps stop making excuses for our TE Opps I meant OL Coach ! I am fine with our OL Coach, keep him and bring in Alex Gibbs 2 or 3 days a week and let him help out OL Coach get what he needs to learn to make the little adjustments the make our OL the studs we got . I do not accept the throw away mode the team and the fans have fell into every time there is a small problems !!! Harris probably needs to be moved to LG if he is now to slow for what ever the reason is He is our Best Run Blocker . I have to wonder if his big toe is still his reason why because before that injuries he was our best OL if you look at the fist 6 games he was kicking ass last year !

What is Alex Gibbs going to teach them? Broncos aren't zone blocking anymore and that's all Gibbs teaches. Also he is undependable now and likes to quit all the time.

Cito Pelon
11-07-2010, 01:00 AM
I question why we left ourselves with no options other than two rookies starting

It was a gamble, no doubt about it. McXanders have been trying to rebuild the team, and the OL needed some new interior linemen to replace Weigmann and Hamilton, those two obviously had only 1-2 more seasons in them.

I'm sure their thinking was do we wait another year to draft replacements, or roll the dice now?

When a team has as many holes to fill as the Broncs did the past two drafts and FA, you have to roll the dice sometimes and maybe have to take a hit for one year for the draftees to develop. As I've said before, keeping Ben and Casey would have meant two less roster spots for younger guys - and as Rev pointed out that meant Stanley and Hochstein - so there's a good argument against rolling the dice.

I would have liked to keep Weigmann, but McXanders are young and brash, maybe a little overconfident. We'll see how it pans out.

Hamrob
11-07-2010, 09:48 AM
I didn't read all the posts...so, this may have already been discussed.

But, I really think the biggest problem with our offensive line is the Center position and the fact that this squad just has not played together long enough. We plugged in a rookie at center where we used to have two of the best in the business in Nalen and then Wiegmann.

People, especially fans...don't understand how an offensive line works. It works from the inside out. The center is the QB of that line. They're the ones who make the calls up front. They have to change blocking assignments on the fly.

I remember an article last year that spoke about how Wiegmann was one of the best in the entire NFL at this. Now, we have a rookie responsible for making the right reads and changing blocking assignments on the fly.

It's one thing, if the rest of your Oline has played together for a while, but, when, you have a new LG and a banged up RG, RT, LT...where all those guys have been out during preseason or even into the season...your chemistry is off.

I think the Oline will continue to get better as the season goes on...and next year...they should be pretty good.