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Gort
11-04-2010, 09:59 AM
Jake Plummer getting some love on Yahoo today. he's still not a fan of Shanny, but seems to have moved on and isn't bitter. he seems to feel McNabb's pain though..

"I had a coach that, regardless of how well I thought I was playing or how well the majority of fans across the country thought I was playing, it was never good enough for him," Plummer said, not bitter but very matter-of-fact. "And that kind of gets frustrating.

"It just seemed like every game I could have completed these four more passes or these five more shots here and it would have been perfect. And that just wasn't my personality... But Shanahan wanted perfection and he wore a lot of us down there."

Plummer didn't sound surprised by the current circus unfolding in Washington, D.C., between Shanahan and Redskins quarterback Donovan McNabb.

"I think Shanahan is still searching for John Elway," Plummer said. "Somehow, someway, he thinks there's going to be another guy like John Elway.

"He coached a team to almost perfection [with Elway] so he wanted that again, he wanted that every time we went out there. It's just not realistic."http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Ex-NFL-QB-Jake-Plummer-is-playing-a-new-sport-th?urn=nfl-282499

TheReverend
11-04-2010, 10:06 AM
How dare a coach point out mistakes made during a game...

I mean... it sounds like he's COACHING or something.

The nerve.

bronco_diesel
11-04-2010, 10:14 AM
"I had a coach that, regardless of how well I thought I was playing or how well the majority of fans across the country thought I was playing, it was never good enough for him," Plummer said, not bitter but very matter-of-fact. "And that kind of gets frustrating.


It sure smacks of bitterness. I mean, it keeps coming up every couple years from Plummer. If you're not bitter about it, it doesn't even come up.

yerner
11-04-2010, 10:15 AM
I can imagine Shanny being overbearing. Still, Mcnabb has played terrible this year which it seems nobody is talking about.

Beantown Bronco
11-04-2010, 10:17 AM
Jake Plummer getting some love on Yahoo today. he's still not a fan of Shanny, but seems to have moved on and isn't bitter.

This is the exact opposite of what I took out of these quotes. Too bad, too, because I'm a huge fan of the guy......these quotes are actually lowering him a few pegs though IMO.

It's Shanny's job to coach, to make you better, to strive for perfection. I really didn't think I'd ever hear Plummer say some of these things.....disappointing.

Gort
11-04-2010, 10:21 AM
It sure smacks of bitterness. I mean, it keeps coming up every couple years from Plummer. If you're not bitter about it, it doesn't even come up.

i dunno. it sounds more the like the interviewer going down the predictable road with his questions about why he left Denver and retired. he could have gone into details but left it at generalities. i was never a fan of Jake. i don't wish him any ill will, but i didn't like him as QB. he seems to have come to grips with it all now that Shanny and Cutler flamed out in Denver and have moved on to other teams.

Gort
11-04-2010, 10:23 AM
This is the exact opposite of what I took out of these quotes. Too bad, too, because I'm a huge fan of the guy......these quotes are actually lowering him a few pegs though IMO.

It's Shanny's job to coach, to make you better, to strive for perfection. I really didn't think I'd ever hear Plummer say some of these things.....disappointing.

you think? i would have thought he'd be relishing the opportunity to rip into Shanny now that Shanny is doing the same thing with McNabb, but he didn't seem to want to go there.

mkporter
11-04-2010, 10:25 AM
How dare a coach point out mistakes made during a game...

I mean... it sounds like he's COACHING or something.

The nerve.

It's not a question of coaching, but a question of motivating. I certainly don't know what it's like to play for Shanny, but I can see how having someone constantly point out everything you do wrong without taking time to build you up occasionally might get old after a while.

Taco John
11-04-2010, 10:27 AM
In Handball, you don't have a coach to ride your ass to get better. If you suck, it's all cool because nobody cares about handball.

ScottXray
11-04-2010, 10:28 AM
Hindsight also comes in..

Jake won a lot of games for Shanahan , and he also lost a few.
But he won a lot more than he lost. Pointing out that he (Shanny) was continuously looking for another Elway may seem to be criticism and
spiteful...but it is also true. Can't fault Shanny for WANTING that. It worked well until he had Cutler waiting. Of course who knew that Jake would go in the tank with a competitor waiting.

Shannys system has always required a "perfect " QB to run it. Thats why he kept trying to find that guy...(Griese , Plummer, Cutler) after Elway left. The problem is he always tried to make the player fit the image, rather than take what he HAD and make the system fit it (exception was Plummer...he adapted the system to Plummers strengths ...until he had Cutler in backup....then he couldn't wait to try out his new toy.)

Taco John
11-04-2010, 10:29 AM
Imagine. A coach wanting perfection...

Thank God Josh doesn't want perfection out of our guys.

Gort
11-04-2010, 10:29 AM
It's not a question of coaching, but a question of motivating. I certainly don't know what it's like to play for Shanny, but I can see how having someone constantly point out everything you do wrong without taking time to build you up occasionally might get old after a while.

and that's why there are divorce lawyers!

:thanku:

Rock Chalk
11-04-2010, 10:29 AM
This is the exact opposite of what I took out of these quotes. Too bad, too, because I'm a huge fan of the guy......these quotes are actually lowering him a few pegs though IMO.

It's Shanny's job to coach, to make you better, to strive for perfection. I really didn't think I'd ever hear Plummer say some of these things.....disappointing.

Sounds that way but those quotes are also written and given proper tone could very well be matter-of-fact and not bitter sounding.

That's what is so difficult about the writen word, it loses a lot of meaning from verbal communication.

Taco John
11-04-2010, 10:31 AM
"I lost in our doubles match at my tournament in a tiebreaker and came off the court as happy as I've ever been after a loss," Plummer said. "I was smiling and laughing and [thinking], 'Hey, this is life.'"


You can't blame a guy who chokes in big games to want to be comfortable losing. More power to you Jake!

Gort
11-04-2010, 10:34 AM
"I lost in our doubles match at my tournament in a tiebreaker and came off the court as happy as I've ever been after a loss," Plummer said. "I was smiling and laughing and [thinking], 'Hey, this is life.'"


You can't blame a guy who chokes in big games to want to be comfortable losing. More power to you Jake!

again, i was never a Plummer fan, but...

1) he retired with his health intact
2) he's still young
3) he's still rich
4) he married a cheerleader
5) his days are spent doing things he considers fun

i don't think he's comfortable losing... i think his life is so good that losing a handball game does little to put a dent in what must be a perpetual smile on his face.

mkporter
11-04-2010, 10:36 AM
Did he name his kid after Champ?

He hasn't looked back since and Plummer's certainly got his hands full these days. On top of all the physical activities, he's now a family man, spending time with his wife and former Broncos cheerleader, Kollette, and their newborn son, Roland, whom she had in June.

Beantown Bronco
11-04-2010, 10:38 AM
It's not a question of coaching, but a question of motivating. I certainly don't know what it's like to play for Shanny, but I can see how having someone constantly point out everything you do wrong without taking time to build you up occasionally might get old after a while.

It's a problem of motivation, all right? Now if I work my ass off and Initech ships a few extra units, I don't see another dime, so where's the motivation? And here's something else, Bob: I have eight different bosses right now.

I beg your pardon?

Eight bosses.

Eight?

Eight, Bob. So that means that when I make a mistake, I have eight different people coming by to tell me about it. That's my only real motivation is not to be hassled, that and the fear of losing my job. But you know, Bob, that will only make someone work just hard enough not to get fired.

Kaylore
11-04-2010, 10:40 AM
This is the exact opposite of what I took out of these quotes. Too bad, too, because I'm a huge fan of the guy......these quotes are actually lowering him a few pegs though IMO.

It's Shanny's job to coach, to make you better, to strive for perfection. I really didn't think I'd ever hear Plummer say some of these things.....disappointing.

Yeah no kidding. The guy is still complaining that Shanahan asked him to improve. The way Plummer handled the drafting of Cutler really pissed me off. Orton >>>>>>> Plummer and his whining.

hookemhess
11-04-2010, 10:42 AM
http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/comment/9/2010/06/b21e484ad4ed17fa64a521fba5c2f1fd/original.gif

Taco John
11-04-2010, 10:43 AM
again, i was never a Plummer fan, but...

1) he retired with his health intact
2) he's still young
3) he's still rich
4) he married a cheerleader
5) his days are spent doing things he considers fun

i don't think he's comfortable losing... i think his life is so good that losing a handball game does little to put a dent in what must be a perpetual smile on his face.

I don't care whether he's young or rich or any of that stuff. None of that will bring back the four turnovers he committed on our home field against Pittsburgh when he had a chance to step up for once in his post season career and make something happen. It also won't change the fact that he quit on us the following year when Shanahan drafted Cutler - he QUIT. All I need to be reminded of what a pussy Jake was that year is look at Kyle Orton and see how a real winner handles that kind of pressure. Kyle could have easily folded up shop, went into his shell, and put all the pressure on the rest of the team to carry him. Instead, Kyle has soldiered on and played at as high a level as he's ever played in his career without a chip on his shoulder born of a sense of entitlement.

mkporter
11-04-2010, 10:44 AM
"I lost in our doubles match at my tournament in a tiebreaker and came off the court as happy as I've ever been after a loss," Plummer said. "I was smiling and laughing and [thinking], 'Hey, this is life.'"


You can't blame a guy who chokes in big games to want to be comfortable losing. More power to you Jake!

You have a lot of spite for a QB that did a lot of good things for us. Jake had his share of bonehead plays, but Jake was a natural leader at the QB spot. The only one we've had since St. John left us.

I also have to give him credit for understanding what is important in life: health and family.

mkporter
11-04-2010, 10:45 AM
It's a problem of motivation, all right? Now if I work my ass off and Initech ships a few extra units, I don't see another dime, so where's the motivation? And here's something else, Bob: I have eight different bosses right now.

I beg your pardon?

Eight bosses.

Eight?

Eight, Bob. So that means that when I make a mistake, I have eight different people coming by to tell me about it. That's my only real motivation is not to be hassled, that and the fear of losing my job. But you know, Bob, that will only make someone work just hard enough not to get fired.

:notworthy

Miss I.
11-04-2010, 10:48 AM
In context of the article it sounds less bitter, but when just quoted out like that he sounds bitter.

However, what I really want to know is, why would he name his kid Roland Plummer... that just sounds wrong? I know there is a joke in there somewhere.

Taco John
11-04-2010, 10:54 AM
You have a lot of spite for a QB that did a lot of good things for us. Jake had his share of bonehead plays, but Jake was a natural leader at the QB spot. The only one we've had since St. John left us.

I also have to give him credit for understanding what is important in life: health and family.


I have spite for him for two reasons:

1. He was a choker in big games, and I found that to be especially aggrivating. Jake couldn't be counted on to come through in prime time.

2. He QUIT on us when we drafted Cutler, instead of handling the pressure and showing everybody why that was a stupid move. And apparently, he could have easily shown Jay up. Instead, he folded up shop.

TheReverend
11-04-2010, 10:54 AM
It's not a question of coaching, but a question of motivating. I certainly don't know what it's like to play for Shanny, but I can see how having someone constantly point out everything you do wrong without taking time to build you up occasionally might get old after a while.

I thought he pampered his stars?

Which is it? lol people are flat out retarded.

TheReverend
11-04-2010, 11:00 AM
I don't care whether he's young or rich or any of that stuff. None of that will bring back the four turnovers he committed on our home field against Pittsburgh when he had a chance to step up for once in his post season career and make something happen. It also won't change the fact that he quit on us the following year when Shanahan drafted Cutler - he QUIT. All I need to be reminded of what a p***Y Jake was that year is look at Kyle Orton and see how a real winner handles that kind of pressure. Kyle could have easily folded up shop, went into his shell, and put all the pressure on the rest of the team to carry him. Instead, Kyle has soldiered on and played at as high a level as he's ever played in his career without a chip on his shoulder born of a sense of entitlement.

Let's not get carried away...

Taco John
11-04-2010, 11:06 AM
Let's not get carried away...

Kyle Orton does not lose games. Yeah, there are one or two games where you can look at a bad pass at the end of the game that cost us. But when you get down to brass tacks, Kyle Orton is a winner.

Miss I.
11-04-2010, 11:08 AM
I tell you what, I will take Jake's winning record at ASU, Jake's mobility, with Jay Cutler's arm strength and raw talent, and Kyle Orton's work ethic and a bottle of Jack Daniels too. Also maybe some healthy running backs, a better defense, offensive line too.

mkporter
11-04-2010, 11:11 AM
I thought he pampered his stars?

Which is it? lol people are flat out retarded.

You're retarded.

I like how you've made an amalgam of "people" that you make fun of. I liked Shanahan, I liked Plummer, I've never made the case that Shanahan pampered his stars. I just can understand Jake's point, that's it.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-04-2010, 11:14 AM
"I lost in our doubles match at my tournament in a tiebreaker and came off the court as happy as I've ever been after a loss," Plummer said. "I was smiling and laughing and [thinking], 'Hey, this is life.'"


You can't blame a guy who chokes in big games to want to be comfortable losing. More power to you Jake!

We get it. You've made your point. You hate Jake. Good for you.

RaiderH8r
11-04-2010, 11:19 AM
Kyle Orton does not lose games. Yeah, there are one or two games where you can look at a bad pass at the end of the game that cost us. But when you get down to brass tacks, Kyle Orton is a winner.

It's just not reflected, ya know, in his win-loss record.

bronco0608
11-04-2010, 11:24 AM
Ha, Jake Plummer had a better winning percentage than Elway did.

Everyone seems to forget we made the playoffs with him and went deep despite having the most horrendous pass blocking offensive line in NFL history. Erik Pears? Huge draft bust George Foster who is now out of the league?

Jake was the unquestioned leader of those teams and led them farther then they ever should have made.

Cutler took the same team and drove it into the ground - no playoff apperances.

Hate on Plummer all you want, but we won, and won a lot with him. Without his ability to escape a constant pass rush, those teams would have been 500 at best without him. Those were seriously flawed teams he played on.

And remember, not a single teammate ever threw him under the bus no matter how bad he played. They played hard for the snake. They know what he did for those teams.

TheReverend
11-04-2010, 11:29 AM
You're retarded.

I like how you've made an amalgam of "people" that you make fun of. I liked Shanahan, I liked Plummer, I've never made the case that Shanahan pampered his stars. I just can understand Jake's point, that's it.

I like how I use the word "people" yet you think it's directed at you. Insecurity issues, bro?

TheReverend
11-04-2010, 11:30 AM
This is the exact opposite of what I took out of these quotes. Too bad, too, because I'm a huge fan of the guy......these quotes are actually lowering him a few pegs though IMO.

It's Shanny's job to coach, to make you better, to strive for perfection. I really didn't think I'd ever hear Plummer say some of these things.....disappointing.

While I agree with your general theme, I disagree with it lowering Jake a few pegs. It is who he is. And who he is, is still pretty awesome.

mkporter
11-04-2010, 11:31 AM
I have spite for him for two reasons:

1. He was a choker in big games, and I found that to be especially aggrivating. Jake couldn't be counted on to come through in prime time.

2. He QUIT on us when we drafted Cutler, instead of handling the pressure and showing everybody why that was a stupid move. And apparently, he could have easily shown Jay up. Instead, he folded up shop.

Jake wasn't the perfect QB. He had some bad games at bad times. He also led the team to some great wins, and got us one game away from the super bowl. That's the best season we've had since Elway, and it was a good one. He presided over our best years since Elway left, and was our QB the last time we had an elite level team.

I don't know how you are so sure that he quit on us. Maybe Shanny finally pushed too far and too hard. There is certainly a case to be made that Shanahan's message wore thin throughout the organization, leading to his termination.

My main point is, Jake won a lot for us, and led some pretty good Bronco teams. I appreciate that. He also played the game like it was a game, which is fun to see.

Taco John
11-04-2010, 11:32 AM
We get it. You've made your point. You hate Jake. Good for you.



Hey don't blame me. Jake is the one who is constantly going to the media to whine about how the greatest coach in Broncos history made him work hard. I can't help it if Jake validates my take on him every time he opens his mouth.

mkporter
11-04-2010, 11:34 AM
I like how I use the word "people" yet you think it's directed at you. Insecurity issues, bro?

Um no, you just directly quoted me, and then used my statement as part of your point as to why "people" are retarded. Not really a big jump to assume it was directed my way.

s0phr0syne
11-04-2010, 11:34 AM
However, there's one final thing he fantasizes about doing on the gridiron.

Said Plummer: "I would like to go in one more game and roll to my left and throw a ball, a sick wobbly lob pass to Larry Fitzgerald(notes) and he'd go up against eight [defensive backs] and pull it down and make me look good."

Somewhere, the Cardinals brass frantically just picked up the phone.


JAKE! hot damn diggity, I still love the guy. TJ, this BS about Jake quitting on the Broncos is pure malarkey. Yeah, his play looked like dog poo that last 2006 season, but he never quit and he kept trying. Yes, maybe the pressure got to him, but he didn't quite trying, if anything he was probably trying too hard, pressing too much.

Jake was great, and so was Shanny. Too bad we couldn't get a defense to save our life back then.

mkporter
11-04-2010, 11:43 AM
Hey don't blame me. Jake is the one who is constantly going to the media to whine about how the greatest coach in Broncos history made him work hard. I can't help it if Jake validates my take on him every time he opens his mouth.

Like him or not, I certainly wouldn't describe Jake as someone who is "constantly going to the media." He's had like two interviews since he retired four years ago. By all accounts he's fairly reclusive. And it's not likely that he brought the subject of Shanahan up. I'm pretty sure the interviewer wanted to get his thoughts on the McNabb situation since he's probably a pretty good source on what it is like to work with him.

s0phr0syne
11-04-2010, 11:46 AM
The whole reason that he ever has interviews is because he's trying to promote handball as a sport. The Broncos/Shanahan stuff just gets highlighted to make it more "juicy". Jake isn't going to the media and whining every year...it just gets accentuated to help boost readership.

Beantown Bronco
11-04-2010, 11:46 AM
JAKE! hot damn diggity, I still love the guy. TJ, this BS about Jake quitting on the Broncos is pure malarkey. Yeah, his play looked like dog poo that last 2006 season, but he never quit and he kept trying. Yes, maybe the pressure got to him, but he didn't quite trying, if anything he was probably trying too hard, pressing too much.

Jake was great, and so was Shanny. Too bad we couldn't get a defense to save our life back then.

That 2006 defense was arguably one of the best defenses in the history of the NFL over the first two months of the season.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-04-2010, 11:49 AM
Hey don't blame me. Jake is the one who is constantly going to the media to whine about how the greatest coach in Broncos history made him work hard. I can't help it if Jake validates my take on him every time he opens his mouth.

No, seriously. We get it. You've repeated the same point ad nauseum. You hate him. Checked off the box for "Taco hates Jake Plummer." It's done. Your point has been made.

And I somehow doubt that Jake "went to the media" to complain about Shanahan. Seems like the media probably called him up. God forbid he respond.

But no, you're right. I'm sure he's sitting at home in Idaho right now with his hot-ass wife wondering who in the media he should call next to rip on his former coach. Makes a TON of sense.

Black96WS6
11-04-2010, 11:50 AM
In Handball, you don't have a coach to ride your ass to get better. If you suck, it's all cool because nobody cares about handball.

The same is true of Dodgeball.

TheReverend
11-04-2010, 11:52 AM
Um no, you just directly quoted me, and then used my statement as part of your point as to why "people" are retarded. Not really a big jump to assume it was directed my way.

I was building off what you said about Shanny constantly pointing out player's mistakes and how direct quotes from players seem to contradict his "coddled players" image. You have sub 300 posts, I have no ****ing clue who you are. But, honestly, I don't give a **** how you take it so whatever.

TheReverend
11-04-2010, 11:54 AM
That 2006 defense was arguably one of the best defenses in the history of the NFL over the first two months of the season.

And then Al broke.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-04-2010, 11:54 AM
I was building off what you said about Shanny constantly pointing out player's mistakes and how direct quotes from players seem to contradict his "coddled players" image. You have sub 300 posts, I have no ****ing clue who you are. But, honestly, I don't give a **** how you take it so whatever.

You certainly showed that by continuously responding. So whatever.

TheReverend
11-04-2010, 11:57 AM
You certainly showed that by continuously responding. So whatever.

Go tell Taco again how much you "get it".

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-04-2010, 12:02 PM
Go tell Taco again how much you "get it".

Yawn.

You're a little riled up. Better watch your heartrate, kiddo. Hate for you to keel over about what amounts to nothing at all.

mkporter
11-04-2010, 12:05 PM
I was building off what you said about Shanny constantly pointing out player's mistakes and how direct quotes from players seem to contradict his "coddled players" image. You have sub 300 posts, I have no ****ing clue who you are. But, honestly, I don't give a **** how you take it so whatever.

Now do you have a ****ing clue who I am?

I get it. I thought you were going with more of a you-Shanahan-haters-are-so-intent-on-bashing-him-that-you-condradict-yourselves kind of theme. I'm sorry for calling you retarded, a$$hole. ;D

mkporter
11-04-2010, 12:08 PM
And then Al broke.

That, and the defense seemed to rely on a lot of good fortune. No one could score, but they never really seemed all that dominant.

TheReverend
11-04-2010, 12:12 PM
Yawn.

You're a little riled up. Better watch your heartrate, kiddo. Hate for you to keel over about what amounts to nothing at all.

This makes perfect sense... Uhh

Gort
11-04-2010, 12:12 PM
JAKE! hot damn diggity, I still love the guy. TJ, this BS about Jake quitting on the Broncos is pure malarkey. Yeah, his play looked like dog poo that last 2006 season, but he never quit and he kept trying. Yes, maybe the pressure got to him, but he didn't quite trying, if anything he was probably trying too hard, pressing too much.

Jake was great, and so was Shanny. Too bad we couldn't get a defense to save our life back then.

i don't think he quit either. i think he got tired of Shanny and i think Shanny realized that Plummer was not the superstar QB he was looking for. when the opportunity to draft Cutler came up, Shanny took it. i'd imagine Plummer was ticked off, but i think he was already thinking about walking away from the game at that point anyway. the death of Tillman hit Plummer harder than most people realize. i think Plummer probably feels like he's living his life now partly to honor his buddy who wasn't going to get a chance to enjoy a post-NFL life. if it was just about Shanny, he would have gone to TB. i just think by 2006, he was thinking that there had to be more to life than getting bitched out every day by a control freak coach.

i'm not a Plummer fan either. i think he is as much to blame for that 2005 AFCC loss as anyone (everyone) associated with the Broncos... and his mental mistakes were frustrating. but you gotta hand it to him... unlike almost everyone else, he left the NFL on his own terms. few get to do that.

mkporter
11-04-2010, 12:16 PM
i don't think he quit either. i think he got tired of Shanny and i think Shanny realized that Plummer was not the superstar QB he was looking for. when the opportunity to draft Cutler came up, Shanny took it. i'd imagine Plummer was ticked off, but i think he was already thinking about walking away from the game at that point anyway. the death of Tillman hit Plummer harder than most people realize. i think Plummer probably feels like he's living his life now partly to honor his buddy who wasn't going to get a chance to enjoy a post-NFL life. if it was just about Shanny, he would have gone to TB. i just think by 2006, he was thinking that there had to be more to life than getting b****ed out every day by a control freak coach.

i'm not a Plummer fan either. i think he is as much to blame for that 2005 AFCC loss as anyone (everyone) associated with the Broncos... and his mental mistakes were frustrating. but you gotta hand it to him... unlike almost everyone else, he left the NFL on his own terms. few get to do that.

Good post. I blame our loss to Pittsburgh on Champ Bailey not getting that interception that turned into a Hines Ward tipped catch. With the year he had, that should have been a pick six, game over. Not blaming Champ, mind you, just cursing bad fortune.

jhns
11-04-2010, 12:16 PM
It sure makes you wonder just how bad McDaniels must be to deal with. I mean, Cutler had no problems dealing with the horrible control freak/perfectionist Shanahan. He didn't last more than a couple months with McDaniels.

Just sayin....

TheReverend
11-04-2010, 12:24 PM
Good post. I blame our loss to Pittsburgh on Champ Bailey not getting that interception that turned into a Hines Ward tipped catch. With the year he had, that should have been a pick six, game over. Not blaming Champ, mind you, just cursing bad fortune.

One of his arms was in a sling... meanwhile, Nick Ferguson got hit in the face wide open

bendog
11-04-2010, 12:41 PM
bittermuch. Sitting on 20 million in the bank and waiting for five years to bag on shanny for firing him for choking in the AFC championship. LOL

That said, shanny would work him out today if he could.

RaiderH8r
11-04-2010, 12:41 PM
JAKE! hot damn diggity, I still love the guy. TJ, this BS about Jake quitting on the Broncos is pure malarkey. Yeah, his play looked like dog poo that last 2006 season, but he never quit and he kept trying. Yes, maybe the pressure got to him, but he didn't quite trying, if anything he was probably trying too hard, pressing too much.

Jake was great, and so was Shanny. Too bad we couldn't get a defense to save our life back then.

****cough cough****F'ing Larry Coyer*****cough cough*****

Don't knock our D, it was innovative. We played our CBs further off of WRs than anybody in the league. 3rd and 20, we'll line our CBs up 25 yds off the ball in a full back pedal. Just keepin plays in front of'em.

Popps
11-04-2010, 12:51 PM
I have spite for him for one reason: I said Griese was the guy, and he wasn't.
.

Fixed it fer ya!


Look, Plummer was arguably the 2nd best QB this franchise ever had. He provided spark to an organization that was in the dumps and floundering. He brought winning back to Denver. Anyone who "resents" him for that is not a true fan, imo. The real shame is that we never fielded a complete team around him, while Pittsburgh had a dominating defense and dominant running game. (Swap QBs for that AFCCG... does anyone actually think we win that game if Ben R. was our QB? If so, you're out of your mind.) Our defenses caved in to record proportions every time we got into the playoffs.
We allowed record scoring in first halves against Indy AND Pittsburgh, I believe. Plummer had almost nothing to do with that.

The Jake Plummer hatred stems from two things...

1. People who don't understand the game assuming it must always be the QB's fault.

2. People having a prior, vested interest in another QB and deciding to hate him from the get-go, much like people did with our new coach.

That's the end of that story.



As for Shanahan... I've been saying for years that he probably didn't have the best relationship with all players. It always appeared that if you weren't an established pro, Mike might be very hard on you. Griese, Plummer and now apparently McNabb have confirmed that he's a bit relentless.

Hey, I love Shanahan... always have. But, this shouldn't be any surprise to anyone. He's ruthless and an absolute control freak. He wants things his way and he's got a quick trigger finger.

That's the other irony, here. Shanahan and McDaniels have so much in common, it's off the charts.

bendog
11-04-2010, 12:53 PM
Fixed it fer ya!


Look, Plummer was arguably the 2nd best QB this franchise ever had. He provided spark to an organization that was in the dumps and floundering. .

Too funny. You're too ****ing lazy to even look at the history of team you never watched.

ps, and I still think Jake was an ok qb till he quit on the team.

Popps
11-04-2010, 12:56 PM
Too funny. You're too ****ing lazy to even look at the history of team you never watched.

Probably watched longer than you have, sport.

As for "looking up the history," I know Plummer won games at about a .750 clip and had a 2:1 TD/INT ratio. He ranks high among team records. I also used the word "arguably."

Maybe read better next time?

Taco John
11-04-2010, 12:57 PM
I never said Griese was "the" guy. I did say that we should have Griese and Plummer compete. I didn't want to see that big nut that Griese was carrying escalate that year on the cap, and figured at worst he would be a solid back-up.

Taco John
11-04-2010, 12:59 PM
Probably watched longer than you have, sport.

As for "looking up the history," I know Plummer won games at about a .750 clip and had a 2:1 TD/INT ratio. He ranks high among team records. I also used the word "arguably."

Maybe read better next time?



Plummer was a great QB during the regular season. He was an unmitigated wreck once the pressure started to mount though. The fact that he made it to the playoffs at all is a real credit to Shanahan and Kubiak.

bendog
11-04-2010, 01:01 PM
Probably watched longer than you have, sport.

As for "looking up the history," I know Plummer won games at about a .750 clip and had a 2:1 TD/INT ratio. He ranks high among team records. I also used the word "arguably."

Maybe read better next time?

yeah, "sport" (read ashole) you were there for Max Speedy and the rest.

Taco John
11-04-2010, 01:05 PM
http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/2185/jakeplummerjakellhide.jpg

Rock Chalk
11-04-2010, 01:07 PM
That 2006 defense was arguably one of the best defenses in the history of the NFL over the first two months of the season.

Yeah, but it was the last 3 months that was where the **** the bed.

TheReverend
11-04-2010, 01:10 PM
Yeah, but it was the last 3 months that was where the **** the bed.

"Worst sentence of the post mock era award" winner.

http://www.zgeek.com/forum/gallery/files/1/1/5/8/0/grammar_time.gif

bendog
11-04-2010, 01:12 PM
Tensi really doens't look that bad. funny.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/career-passing.htm

Rock Chalk
11-04-2010, 01:13 PM
Id take 1 Jake Plummer over 10,000 Jay Cutlers and 50,000 Brian Grieses.

Plummer was not perfect, was not the best QB, or most talented but he was ****ing fun to watch and exciting to root for. If he had even a remotely decent pass blocking offensive line in 2005, we win the superbowl that year. His mistakes largely came under intense pressure from defensive linemen.

I specifically remember one game against Indy where Mathis came off the edge and strip-sacked Plummer and Taco immediately blamed Plummer, NOT George Foster who was to blame NOR did he give credit to Mathis for an outstanding defensive play. No, the entire blame for that play went to Plummer even though - while Plummer may have been able to secure that ball, that's debatable - that play was the result of piss poor blocking by Foster and outstanding effort by Mathis.

This was Taco's take on Plummer. The entire thing summed up in one play. It's Plummer's fault and he's a choker.

Rock Chalk
11-04-2010, 01:13 PM
"Worst sentence of the post mock era award" winner.

http://www.zgeek.com/forum/gallery/files/1/1/5/8/0/grammar_time.gif

yeah, my work keyboard is new to me and the key's are not quite as sensitive so some get "missed".

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-04-2010, 01:23 PM
"Worst sentence of the post mock era award" winner.

http://www.zgeek.com/forum/gallery/files/1/1/5/8/0/grammar_time.gif

Are we officially in the post mock era? Boy, that would be terrific.

Northman
11-04-2010, 01:39 PM
again, i was never a Plummer fan, but...

1) he retired with his health intact
2) he's still young
3) he's still rich
4) he married a cheerleader
5) his days are spent doing things he considers fun

i don't think he's comfortable losing... i think his life is so good that losing a handball game does little to put a dent in what must be a perpetual smile on his face.


Of course he is happy. There is no grand expectations from fans while he plays handball. In the NFL your expected to win and if you dont take it seriously and have a ho-hum attitude about it of course the coach is going to ride your ass. Jake was never a student of the game and it often showed.

RunSilentRunDeep
11-04-2010, 01:50 PM
People are getting confused over a basic personality difference between Plummer and Shanahan. Mike needs to see a reflection of himself at quarterback. Jake obviously likes a coach who doesn't act like a million children will starve to death if they lose a game.

Bill Parcells and Jimmy Johnson admittedly treated players differently depending on whether the player needed an ass-kicking or a hug. Shanahan only delivers the ass-kicking. It's on the coach to find a way to reach the player.

Joe Montana once got sacked six times in a game. When one of his offensive lineman apologized to him, Montana just shrugged and said "sh*t happens."

Obviously Jake wanted/needed to hear "sh*t happens" ever once and a while. Most fans want every player to have the psycho intensity of Ray Lewis or Peyton Manning, that's not the real world.

As for 2006, anyone who thinks Jay quit on the team is ignorant. Javon Walker was the only quality skill player on that team. Rod Smith was dead-man-walking with his hip injury and the Bells' flaws are well documented.

As for the Jake isn't a winner BS, personally, I long for the days when Plummer was around and the Broncos could beat Baltimore, win in Pittsburgh and New England and go toe-to-toe with San Diego. I also miss a quarterback who didn't look like they were taking a crap in their pants with a pass rush coming.

Finally, if anyone "quit" on the 2006 season, it was Shanahan. He lost the locker room (like he just did in Washington) when he benched Jake and stuck in Cutler, who was still learning how to hold onto the fricking snap.

mkporter
11-04-2010, 01:59 PM
One of his arms was in a sling... meanwhile, Nick Ferguson got hit in the face wide open

Ward just managed to get in there to tip it up as I recall. Champ made an awesome play on the ball, play just didn't go our way. Was on a critical third down too, which made it doubly painful that Ward caught it and converted.

Disclaimer: I don't blame Champ.

First play on the highlight tape:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d8007fa66/Steelers-34-Broncos-17

TheReverend
11-04-2010, 02:02 PM
Ward just managed to get in there to tip it up as I recall. Champ made an awesome play on the ball, play just didn't go our way. Was on a critical third down too, which made it doubly painful that Ward caught it and converted.

Disclaimer: I don't blame Champ.

First play on the highlight tape:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/09000d5d8007fa66/Steelers-34-Broncos-17

Ya, notice he goes after the ball with one arm since he can't raise the other one up much because it's in a sling

bronco_diesel
11-04-2010, 02:11 PM
i dunno. it sounds more the like the interviewer going down the predictable road with his questions about why he left Denver and retired. he could have gone into details but left it at generalities. i was never a fan of Jake. i don't wish him any ill will, but i didn't like him as QB. he seems to have come to grips with it all now that Shanny and Cutler flamed out in Denver and have moved on to other teams.

and as the interviewee you know the predictable path that will come, and plummer has particpated more than once. he's basically blamed shanny for ruining the game for him, as he lost his passion for it etc. when you read the previous quotes and then this again, it's clear he is bitter at shanny. it's pretty easy to say 'i am not bitter' but his words prove that he is.

mkporter
11-04-2010, 02:13 PM
Ya, notice he goes after the ball with one arm since he can't raise the other one up much because it's in a sling

His right arm goes up, and it looks to me that Ward is hanging all over his left before the ball got there. Although with a fully healthy wing, maybe that doesn't stop him. I remember thinking, as I saw the play unfold, that Champ was going to win another one for us like he did the week before.

fontaine
11-04-2010, 03:08 PM
i don't think he quit either. i think he got tired of Shanny and i think Shanny realized that Plummer was not the superstar QB he was looking for. when the opportunity to draft Cutler came up, Shanny took it. i'd imagine Plummer was ticked off, but i think he was already thinking about walking away from the game at that point anyway. the death of Tillman hit Plummer harder than most people realize. i think Plummer probably feels like he's living his life now partly to honor his buddy who wasn't going to get a chance to enjoy a post-NFL life. if it was just about Shanny, he would have gone to TB. i just think by 2006, he was thinking that there had to be more to life than getting b****ed out every day by a control freak coach.

i'm not a Plummer fan either. i think he is as much to blame for that 2005 AFCC loss as anyone (everyone) associated with the Broncos... and his mental mistakes were frustrating. but you gotta hand it to him... unlike almost everyone else, he left the NFL on his own terms. few get to do that.


You know, I never bought that for anything other than an excuse. Everyone knows someone who's lost someone close to them.

But does that mean they quit their job too? Sorry but no. Plummer quit because he simply didn't want to compete week in week out and put in the preperation and Shanahan said as much.

Gort
11-04-2010, 03:21 PM
You know, I never bought that for anything other than an excuse. Everyone knows someone who's lost someone close to them.

But does that mean they quit their job too? Sorry but no. Plummer quit because he simply didn't want to compete week in week out and put in the preperation and Shanahan said as much.

i think it was a very important event for Plummer. probably not that he quit because of Tillman... but that he sat down and re-evaluated what was important to him as a result. i know firsthand that such things can affect you. alot of people get so caught up in the ratrace that they need a jolt to the system to realize that they are living to work instead of working to live. it happens all the time to people who have a close call with death... either themselves, or their friends, or their family members. that's all i meant.

rbackfactory80
11-04-2010, 03:36 PM
I can't stand the Plummer "wet the bed" comments in the playoffs. Every trip to Indy we would be doomed no matter who our QB was. Our defense folded up the second the plane landed in Indy. In 03 we didn't even touch Harrison after he went down and he got up and scored. Then we played against NE and they had a truly dominant defense and they completely shut down our run. We found a way to win that one even as an 1 dimensional team.

Plummer was a really scrappy player and in my opinion this franchise made its worst move in drafting Cutler. Shanahan, not Plummer, is responsible for where this team has headed since 05. Who knows where this team goes in 06 if we don't draft a QB, select some real d-line help, and keep Plummer from looking over his back. As much as I loved Shanahan, he should have never tinkered with a team coming off an AFC Championship appearance.

Popps
11-04-2010, 04:18 PM
I can't stand the Plummer "wet the bed" comments in the playoffs. Every trip to Indy we would be doomed no matter who our QB was. Our defense folded up the second the plane landed in Indy. In 03 we didn't even touch Harrison after he went down and he got up and scored. Then we played against NE and they had a truly dominant defense and they completely shut down our run. We found a way to win that one even as an 1 dimensional team.

Plummer was a really scrappy player and in my opinion this franchise made its worst move in drafting Cutler. Shanahan, not Plummer, is responsible for where this team has headed since 05. Who knows where this team goes in 06 if we don't draft a QB, select some real d-line help, and keep Plummer from looking over his back. As much as I loved Shanahan, he should have never tinkered with a team coming off an AFC Championship appearance.

Spoken like someone who actually watched those games.

Shanny drafted Cutler and that was pretty much the end of his career in Denver. It went downhill for him from the time he put Cutler in the lineup, until he finally lost his job.

-The defense got worse.
-Our record got worse.
-QB productivity got worse. (Wins - TD/INT Ratio)

Oh, and the guy he replaced Plummer with is still a failure in the league.


All you need to do is look at the facts. Of course, that's not as fun as revising history, but so be it.

HorseHead
11-04-2010, 04:25 PM
I always liked 'Snake....great porn 'stache..

Steve Sewell
11-04-2010, 04:30 PM
"I lost in our doubles match at my tournament in a tiebreaker and came off the court as happy as I've ever been after a loss," Plummer said. "I was smiling and laughing and [thinking], 'Hey, this is life.'"


You can't blame a guy who chokes in big games to want to be comfortable losing. More power to you Jake!

Jake Plummer is more of a winner than 99% of the people who post on this board.

Popps
11-04-2010, 04:43 PM
Jake Plummer is more of a winner than 99% of the people who post on this board.

You're being generous.

It's also comical coming from the guy who fiercely defended Brian Griese, the QB who almost single-handledly destroyed the morale of the franchise. Griese basically said himself he was never really into it. ****, he said that while he was PLAYING the game.

It's all noise, man. People drew their lines in the sand and picked the wrong side... now the revisionist history is all they have to defend their positions.

Some of us just wanted to win some games for a change, which Jake helped us do.

WolfpackGuy
11-04-2010, 04:47 PM
If Jake didn't want to work on becoming a better pocket passer, then that's on him.

Not hating on Jake and what he accomplished, but Shanahan rode the Plummer horse as long as he could.

gunns
11-04-2010, 04:48 PM
I have a lot in common with Shanahan then because I was never satisfied with Plummers play either. However, I do agree with Plummer that Shanahan wants another Elway, I think because he wants people to see it was him, not Elway. Can't be satisfied with just having had a great team.

Rock Chalk
11-04-2010, 04:52 PM
Popps you are so full of it.

I was a Plummer guy too but even I doubt Isaac hated Plummer because he wasn't Griese. He hated Plummer because he (Isaac) has absolutely no clue what makes a good QB and whatever his notions are about what a good QB is, Plummer didn't have it.

Even when we went 13-3, it was all in SPITE of Plummer according to that moron. Granted, the following year when we were 7-4, some of those wins WERE in spite of Plummer.

Conversely, when Cutler was put in, it was first "Well he's a rookie" and then it became "our defense sucks". Never blame to put on Cutler. Cutler threw more picks than Plummer did, despite having better WR talent, and a better offensive line than PLummer EVER had in Denver.

Face it, Isaac's opinion on Quarterbacks (and left tackles) is worthless and should never EVER be responded to by any sane individual.

Rock Chalk
11-04-2010, 04:53 PM
If Jake didn't want to work on becoming a better pocket passer, then that's on him.

Not hating on Jake and what he accomplished, but Shanahan rode the Plummer horse as long as he could.

If Plummer had the offensive line Cutler had in in his last season in Denver, Denver wins a superbowl in 2005.

Its like you people do not remember Plummer running for his life on every single effing play.

RaiderH8r
11-04-2010, 05:00 PM
Jake Plummer is more of a winner than 99% of the people who post on this board.

So you too know of my awesomitudinal winnerness. This is good.

RaiderH8r
11-04-2010, 05:04 PM
And Plummer was great. He left it on the field and got a kick in the dick for it. He found what makes him happy in life and did it. Good for him. If you don't like the life you're living go find one you do like. We should all be so self aware.

Plummer made some bone headed plays but I said it then and I'll say it again, after playing in AZ he was a man who played too long under siege and it took awhile to break him of the belief he alone had to carry the team. The guy was PTSD after running for his life in AZ and he had some flashbacks from time to time.

TheReverend
11-04-2010, 05:25 PM
If Plummer had the offensive line Cutler had in in his last season in Denver, Denver wins a superbowl in 2005.

Its like you people do not remember Plummer running for his life on every single effing play.

Didn't you post an article last week about how that line and Clady weren't nearly as good as it seemed and we were at the bottom of the league in pressures and protection looked a lot better because of Cutler?

Just some clarification pls, because people's stories seem to shift from topic to topic.

I can never tell if Shanahan is an evil dictator demanding absurd performances from players or a players coach who coddles them and gives them club med training camps, and now I have to add in if our OL was/is good?

orinjkrush
11-04-2010, 05:42 PM
oh geez. shannyhan demanded perfection from his players!!!! bastage.

oh wait, did Bowlen demand PERFECTION from Shannyhanman?

hmmmmmm?????

a coach is paid to get the best from his team. not to piss them all off.

Listening Joshie?

gunns
11-04-2010, 05:46 PM
If Plummer had the offensive line Cutler had in in his last season in Denver, Denver wins a superbowl in 2005.

Its like you people do not remember Plummer running for his life on every single effing play.

Oh please. Plummer ran because he held the ball too long and then made a bad decision. Shanahan sitting Plummer wasn't a huge mistake, Cutler may have been. People give Plummer too much credit for that 2005 season, I say we had it because of the defense, in spite of Plummer, and we lost it in large part because of Plummer. Some of you are talking about him like he was almost Elway. I really liked the dude, but not the QB.

Taco John
11-04-2010, 06:15 PM
I can't stand the Plummer "wet the bed" comments in the playoffs. Every trip to Indy we would be doomed no matter who our QB was. Our defense folded up the second the plane landed in Indy. In 03 we didn't even touch Harrison after he went down and he got up and scored. Then we played against NE and they had a truly dominant defense and they completely shut down our run. We found a way to win that one even as an 1 dimensional team.

Plummer was a really scrappy player and in my opinion this franchise made its worst move in drafting Cutler. Shanahan, not Plummer, is responsible for where this team has headed since 05. Who knows where this team goes in 06 if we don't draft a QB, select some real d-line help, and keep Plummer from looking over his back. As much as I loved Shanahan, he should have never tinkered with a team coming off an AFC Championship appearance.


Say whatever you want about the defense in those games - they certainly had their problems - but in 4 post season games that Plummer played for us, he committed 9 turnovers. If that's not wetting the bed, then I don't know what is.

Jesterhole
11-04-2010, 06:27 PM
I can understand Jake's comments. He led the team (along with a strong D and a prime Champ) to the AFC Championship game, then Shanahan drafts his replacement in the first round the next year.

Shanahan was indeed a perfectionist, and I can see how that would wear on a team over the years.

rbackfactory80
11-04-2010, 06:30 PM
Say whatever you want about the defense in those games - they certainly had their problems - but in 4 post season games that Plummer played for us, he committed 9 turnovers. If that's not wetting the bed, then I don't know what is.

In how many of those games were we down 14 within the first 5 minutes? Not only were we down 14 we also had no defense and would be down another score the next possession. Plummer had to press to keep up in a race at the dome. Pressing obviously leads to interceptions not to mention throwing on all downs to try to catch up.

You know if you watched the Patriots go into Indy and win or win at their place they won games where Brady was repeatedly given a chance by his defense stopping the Colts. No unbalanced team was going to win in Indy. How does it feel for a QB to know he can't make one mistake or else Denver loses? That's the position Plummer was in.

Taco John
11-04-2010, 06:38 PM
In how many of those games were we down 14 within the first 5 minutes?


Let's pretend that he was down 21 points in the first 3 minutes in every single game. This is now a pass for turning over the football?

WolfpackGuy
11-04-2010, 06:53 PM
If Plummer had the offensive line Cutler had in in his last season in Denver, Denver wins a superbowl in 2005.

Its like you people do not remember Plummer running for his life on every single effing play.

Sure, Plummer saved the line sacks because he could move around, but I don't recall him ever being under siege in his Denver career unless it was in a blowout.

It was the beginning of the end once teams figured out to stay home on the play action and contain Jake in the pocket. He couldn't adjust.

Like Jake, Cutler's mobility made the 2008 line look better than it probably was. It's a lot easier on defenses when they know where your QB will be as we've seen with Orton under center.

rbackfactory80
11-04-2010, 06:55 PM
Let's pretend that he was down 21 points in the first 3 minutes in every single game. This is now a pass for turning over the football?

Its not a pass at all. Everyone loved the "no mistake Jake" all year and then was furious when it was playoff time and we needed Plummer to transform into a guy that could throw it all over the field and keep up with the best offense in the league. We made it to the championship game by not turning it over or making mistakes, running the ball, and playing defense. Now subtract our entire formula for success because it disappeared during the playoffs and ask our mistake free ball protector QB to completely alter his style of play because he had no assistance. That is unrealistic.

strafen
11-04-2010, 06:56 PM
Popps you are so full of it.

I was a Plummer guy too but even I doubt Isaac hated Plummer because he wasn't Griese. He hated Plummer because he (Isaac) has absolutely no clue what makes a good QB and whatever his notions are about what a good QB is, Plummer didn't have it.

Even when we went 13-3, it was all in SPITE of Plummer according to that moron. Granted, the following year when we were 7-4, some of those wins WERE in spite of Plummer.

Conversely, when Cutler was put in, it was first "Well he's a rookie" and then it became "our defense sucks". Never blame to put on Cutler. Cutler threw more picks than Plummer did, despite having better WR talent, and a better offensive line than PLummer EVER had in Denver.

Face it, Isaac's opinion on Quarterbacks (and left tackles) is worthless and should never EVER be responded to by any sane individual.I don't care who you are, that's too funny right there! LOL

Isaac is not that bad... ;)

WolfpackGuy
11-04-2010, 06:57 PM
Its not a pass at all. Everyone loved the "no mistake Jake" all year and then was furious when it was playoff time and we needed Plummer to transform into a guy that could throw it all over the field and keep up with the best offense in the league. We made it to the championship game by not turning it over or making mistakes, running the ball, and playing defense. Now subtract our entire formula for success because it disappeared during the playoffs and ask our mistake free ball protector QB to completely alter his style of play because he had no assistance. That is unrealistic.

2005 team was +20 in turnovers.

2006 squad was (correction) +4 in Jake's 11 games.

rbackfactory80
11-04-2010, 07:02 PM
2005 team was +20 in turnovers.

2006 squad was -4 in Jake's 11 games.

+ 20 is good. That means you don't turn it over and have many takeaways.

WolfpackGuy
11-04-2010, 07:07 PM
+ 20 is good. That means you don't turn it over and have many takeaways.

Very true. I remember the defense got turnovers like crazy that year.

The offense was also very good at protecting the ball with 16 offensive turnovers in the regular season (7 int's).

Jump to 2006 and Plummer threw 12 int's in the 11 games he started.

rbackfactory80
11-04-2010, 07:10 PM
Very true. I remember the defense got turnovers like crazy that year.

The offense was also very good at protecting the ball with 16 offensive turnovers in the regular season (7 int's).

Jump to 2006 and Plummer threw 12 int's in the 11 games he started.

Yeah but that was the year after the AFC Championship game when Cutler was breathing down his neck. No one would argue Plummer handled that situation well but in my opinion he shouldn't of had to.

baja
11-04-2010, 07:17 PM
When we'd go fishing I can't tell you how many fish Shanny would throw back looking for that perfect Wahoo or Tuna. He once tossed a nice marlin because he thought the fish had an ugly face.

baja
11-04-2010, 07:18 PM
Kyle Orton does not lose games. Yeah, there are one or two games where you can look at a bad pass at the end of the game that cost us. But when you get down to brass tacks, Kyle Orton is a winner.

Kyle Orton would be a huge winner if he were a closer, he's not.

WolfpackGuy
11-04-2010, 07:20 PM
Yeah but that was the year after the AFC Championship game when Cutler was breathing down his neck. No one would argue Plummer handled that situation well but in my opinion he shouldn't of had to.

Yeah, definitely a rough situation.

Noone knows for certain why Shanahan decided to retool the offense when he did. They invested a lot in offense in the offseason. I can only guess it's because he thought that was as far as that particular group could go. They were an OLD team in several spots at the end of 2005.

Taco John
11-04-2010, 07:20 PM
Its not a pass at all. Everyone loved the "no mistake Jake" all year and then was furious when it was playoff time and we needed Plummer to transform into a guy that could throw it all over the field and keep up with the best offense in the league. We made it to the championship game by not turning it over or making mistakes, running the ball, and playing defense. Now subtract our entire formula for success because it disappeared during the playoffs and ask our mistake free ball protector QB to completely alter his style of play because he had no assistance. That is unrealistic.


Oh I understand that everything had to be absolutely perfect to win with Jake. That's my whole source of frustration with him. If Jake was taken off of the game plan, he was useless. That's why Shanahan felt he had to draft someone else, and that's why Jake quit.

Taco John
11-04-2010, 07:21 PM
Noone knows for certain why Shanahan decided to retool the offense when he did.



I don't understand why people can't see the obviousness of this question.

400HZ
11-04-2010, 07:23 PM
Say whatever you want about the defense in those games - they certainly had their problems - but in 4 post season games that Plummer played for us, he committed 9 turnovers. If that's not wetting the bed, then I don't know what is.

Four postseason losses? What is Denver's playoff record since Pornstache left?

baja
11-04-2010, 07:38 PM
Are we officially in the post mock era? Boy, that would be terrific.

I talk with Mock from time to time. I'd call him now but I cleaned out my PMs and sadly Mock's phone number went with them. I am very concerned about Mock's well being. He was still very sick and fragile you know.

KipCorrington25
11-04-2010, 07:43 PM
Plummer played his best NFL football here, or at least won a lot more games so maybe Shannahan was on to something?

Plummer seems to me to be a slacker that needed a kick in the ass. The way he quit and retired is further evidence in my opinion. Plummer was a football player becasue it was fun and he was good as a youngster and got to the NFL and it was a way to become rich but I don't think he had that fire to be a champion. When he had enough money he walked away, a pure competitor wouldn't do that with still plenty of fuel in the tank.

baja
11-04-2010, 07:44 PM
And Plummer was great. He left it on the field and got a kick in the dick for it. He found what makes him happy in life and did it. Good for him.<b> If you don't like the life you're living go find one you do like. </b>We should all be so self aware.

Plummer made some bone headed plays but I said it then and I'll say it again, after playing in AZ he was a man who played too long under siege and it took awhile to break him of the belief he alone had to carry the team. The guy was PTSD after running for his life in AZ and he had some flashbacks from time to time.

What a great line. Should be a bumper sticker.

Rock Chalk
11-04-2010, 08:03 PM
Didn't you post an article last week about how that line and Clady weren't nearly as good as it seemed and we were at the bottom of the league in pressures and protection looked a lot better because of Cutler?

Just some clarification pls, because people's stories seem to shift from topic to topic.

I can never tell if Shanahan is an evil dictator demanding absurd performances from players or a players coach who coddles them and gives them club med training camps, and now I have to add in if our OL was/is good?

I posted someone's analysis of Clady that was not my own.

And I said I dont think Clady and/or Harris will do well in the power blocking scheme. But I never EVER said they sucked in the ZBS. Profootballwhatever did and I just put it out there as something to consider.

But a mobile QB like Plummer behind the ZBS with those players Cutler played behind would have won the superbowl. They would have done a better job of keeping that Blitzburg defense off Plummer's ass and the way he controlled the offense that year he could have picked them apart.

We might have been able to outscore them anyway, as our defense decided to pick that game to lay down like bitches too.

TheReverend
11-04-2010, 08:25 PM
I posted someone's analysis of Clady that was not my own.

And I said I dont think Clady and/or Harris will do well in the power blocking scheme. But I never EVER said they sucked in the ZBS. Profootballwhatever did and I just put it out there as something to consider.

But a mobile QB like Plummer behind the ZBS with those players Cutler played behind would have won the superbowl. They would have done a better job of keeping that Blitzburg defense off Plummer's ass and the way he controlled the offense that year he could have picked them apart.

We might have been able to outscore them anyway, as our defense decided to pick that game to lay down like b****es too.

I think you're underestimating the effectiveness of the 2005 group. That year they rushed for over 2500 yards. I think his spike in sacks was more indicative of him taking the sack over making the patented Jake Plummer stupid throw and his general deer in the hindlights in any third and long pocket passing situation.

Popps
11-04-2010, 09:26 PM
Noone knows for certain why Shanahan decided to retool the offense when he did.

After the SB's, Shanahan couuld never build a defense again. The 2005 team was the closest, and we saw what a colossal failure they were in big games.

It became Obvious when we were promoting guys like Slowick that Shanahan simply gave up on the idea of defense, and decided he could only win with a high powered offense.

So, instead of adding a few pieces to a team that made an AFC Championship game and comleting the puzzle... he decided to scrap things and start over, putting all of his hopes on a young QB.

Turns out, that young QB was garbage. Also turned out that you actually DID need a defense and a running game to win.. and the rest was history.

Shanhan replaced Plummer with Cutler and it eventually cost him his job.

He made a bad decision. Even great coaches have lapses, and Shanahan had clearly lost his way.

Jason in LA
11-04-2010, 09:42 PM
Reading those comments from Plummer, I think he had self esteem issues. Shanny coached him up, turned him into a good player, but Shanny was trying to win a Super Bowl, and Plummer just couldn't deliver that. Shanny is in business to win Super Bowls. So yeah, the expectation level was high. I wouldn't want a coach around who didn't have the expectation to win the Super Bowl. Judging from Plummer's comments, he didn't get that. He wasn't paid that huge contract to win 10 games and make the playoffs. He was paid that money to help the team win the Super Bowl, and he fell short of that. When you fall short the coach rides your ass, and if that doesn't work, you get replaced. I don't think that Plummer realized that is the nature of pro sports. It's not youth sports.

Meck77
11-04-2010, 09:53 PM
Disco and I had a couple beers with Jake's brother at the team hotel in KC years ago. It's pretty obvious but Plummer just never cared what people thought of him. In his brothers own words "Jake just doesn't give a **** what people think...He just wants to win".

I think it's his lack of concern of people's opinions that could be mistaken for lacking self esteem.

bowtown
11-04-2010, 09:54 PM
I love me some Shanahan, but I still think that Kubiak had more to do with Plummer's success here. When he left, things really seemed to fall apart between coach and player.

TheReverend
11-04-2010, 09:57 PM
I love me some Shanahan, but I still think that Kubiak had more to do with Plummer's success here. When he left, things really seemed to fall apart between coach and player.

It was all the coddling Shanahan did. Jake hated it and wanted to be treated like everyone else since to him, no one is above the team. Shanahan hated that philosophy and pampered Jake anyways, so it ended poorly.

bowtown
11-04-2010, 10:08 PM
It was all the coddling Shanahan did. Jake hated it and wanted to be treated like everyone else since to him, no one is above the team. Shanahan hated that philosophy and pampered Jake anyways, so it ended poorly.

Meh, I think that Shanahan resented Plummer for not working hard in the film room or practice and not being able to fully open up his playbook. I think Kubiak built a pretty good game plan around what Jake could do and played to his strenghts, but after the playoff loss and Kubiak leaving, Shanahan just got tired of it. I also don't think it helped that Plummer was firey and would actually fight with Shanahan. It's always proves to be a problem for a player who decides to go toe to toe with Shanahan... and rightly so, it's part of what makes him a great coach IMHO. I think Jake was in Mike's doghouse before the 07 season ever started.

That said, I do think Mike also did pamper Jay and treated him somewhat as a golden child in comparison. I think that had something to do with him hand picking him and wanting to believe he found the next Elway. Just because a coach treats one guy one way, it doesn't mean that's how he treats everyone across the board, especially Shanahan, who's doghouse tends to be particualry deep.

Jason in LA
11-04-2010, 10:13 PM
One comment that Jake has made that really bothered me was he said something like he didn't understand why they were practicing plays that weren't going to be in that week's game plan, or why they were doing certain things over and over.

Just because a play isn't in that week's game plan doesn't mean you don't practice it. At some point it will be in the game plan, so you better have it perfected.

Think back to the '97 AFC title game. Broncos at the Steelers. It was that 3rd and 6 play with time running out. The Broncos needed one more first down to run out the clock. If they got stopped on that play then the Steelers would have gotten the ball back with a shot to win the game. Well Elway called a play that wasn't in the game plan. Shannon Sharpe told him that it wasn't in the game plan, and Elway was like, just go get open. And Elway hit Sharpe for the first down, game over, Broncos go to the Super Bowl. That's why you practice plays over and over, even if they aren't going to be run in the game.

When I heard Plummer make those comments it really pissed me off. The Broncos had a good team around him. A team that could have won it all. They weren't that far off, and he played well for the most part. But he also tripped them up at times, and hearing his comments, I can see why. He wanted to win, but he didn't want to pay the price to win. You don't just win on game day, you have to prepare during the week to win. Seems like that is where he fell short.

2KBack
11-04-2010, 10:19 PM
Meh, I think that Shanahan resented Plummer for not working hard in the film room or practice and not being able to fully open up his playbook. I think Kubiak built a pretty good game plan around what Jake could do and played to his strenghts, but after the playoff loss and Kubiak leaving, Shanahan just got tired of it. I also don't think it helped that Plummer was firey and would actually fight with Shanahan. It's always proves to be a problem for a player who decides to go toe to toe with Shanahan... and rightly so, it's part of what makes him a great coach IMHO. I think Jake was in Mike's doghouse before the 07 season ever started.

That said, I do think Mike also did pamper Jay and treated him somewhat as a golden child in comparison. I think that had something to do with him hand picking him and wanting to believe he found the next Elway. Just because a coach treats one guy one way, it doesn't mean that's how he treats everyone across the board, especially Shanahan, who's doghouse tends to be particualry deep.

This was always my theory. I always felt the 2007 offense was basically a "to hell with What Jake's weaknesses are" this is my game plan. Jake had his weak areas, and Shanahan was no longer going to (or didn't have Kubiak to convince him to) gameplan around them anymore. In his mind Cutler had the physical tools he wanted, and the offense was going to start to reflect Cutlers skills in preparation for him taking over.

Taco John
11-04-2010, 10:55 PM
Everybody thinks Shanahan is looking for the next Elway. I don't think so. I think Shanahan is trying to create the next Steve Young.

Of course, not everyone has Steve Young's work ethic.

Lev Vyvanse
11-04-2010, 11:07 PM
Everybody thinks Shanahan is looking for the next Elway. I don't think so. I think Shanahan is trying to create the next Steve Young.

Of course, not everyone has Steve Young's work ethic.

Tebow? 2 First round picks, a third and their DL.

Jason in LA
11-04-2010, 11:41 PM
I don't think Shanny was looking for the next HOF QB, he was looking for a guy that he could win a Super Bowl with. That wasn't Plummer.

fontaine
11-05-2010, 03:47 AM
After the SB's, Shanahan couuld never build a defense again. The 2005 team was the closest, and we saw what a colossal failure they were in big games.

It became Obvious when we were promoting guys like Slowick that Shanahan simply gave up on the idea of defense, and decided he could only win with a high powered offense.

So, instead of adding a few pieces to a team that made an AFC Championship game and comleting the puzzle... he decided to scrap things and start over, putting all of his hopes on a young QB.

Turns out, that young QB was garbage. Also turned out that you actually DID need a defense and a running game to win.. and the rest was history.

Shanhan replaced Plummer with Cutler and it eventually cost him his job.

He made a bad decision. Even great coaches have lapses, and Shanahan had clearly lost his way.


This post is comical. Shanahan couldn't build a defense, yet it was replacing Plummer that cost him his job, even though Bowlen said Cutler "was the man" after Shanahan was gone?

Anyone who watched that season starting with the Rams opening day loss will realize that defenses had completely figured out how to play Plummer.

Go edge contain, stopping him from having a clear roll out lane and force him to be a pocket passer.

Plummer couldn't, and what's more wasn't willing to put in the effort and dedication required to improve his pocket passing.

Shanahan's hand was forced when the one gimmick play Plummer was any good at was game planned away from him.

Plummer's crappy, stumbling, limp d*ck performance in 2006 had nothing to do with Cutler.

It was all on Plummer.

rbackfactory80
11-05-2010, 05:48 AM
Oh I understand that everything had to be absolutely perfect to win with Jake. That's my whole source of frustration with him. If Jake was taken off of the game plan, he was useless. That's why Shanahan felt he had to draft someone else, and that's why Jake quit.

There is a difference with being perfect and totally losing your identity when playing one team. The NFL is about match-ups and the Colts were the only team we had no chance of beating.

Popps
11-05-2010, 09:37 AM
This post is comical. Shanahan couldn't build a defense.

Look, you can dance around all you want. The facts speak for themselves.

Shanahan made a decision. He chose to gut a team that was on the verge of a SB. From the day he replaced Plummer with Cutler, it was all down-hill... ending in his firing.

You can live in fantasy-land, or you can simply look at the factual information.

baja
11-05-2010, 09:42 AM
This post is comical. Shanahan couldn't build a defense, yet it was replacing Plummer that cost him his job, <b>even though Bowlen said Cutler "was the man" after Shanahan was gone?</b>

Anyone who watched that season starting with the Rams opening day loss will realize that defenses had completely figured out how to play Plummer.

Go edge contain, stopping him from having a clear roll out lane and force him to be a pocket passer.

Plummer couldn't, and what's more wasn't willing to put in the effort and dedication required to improve his pocket passing.

Shanahan's hand was forced when the one gimmick play Plummer was any good at was game planned away from him.

Plummer's crappy, stumbling, limp d*ck performance in 2006 had nothing to do with Cutler.

It was all on Plummer.

That happened to be a video so we got to see the inflection behind the statement. It was not enthusiastic. In fact he said, " I guess that makes Jay the man around here." I did not take that as something Bowlen was happy about, more like posturing to make Jay not feel so ass burnt about losing his coach.

24champ
11-05-2010, 12:50 PM
Look, you can dance around all you want. The facts speak for themselves.

Shanahan made a decision. He chose to gut a team that was on the verge of a SB. From the day he replaced Plummer with Cutler, it was all down-hill... ending in his firing.

You can live in fantasy-land, or you can simply look at the factual information.

One wonders why a team,coming off a 13-3 season and AFC Championship game, peed away draft picks in 2006 for an unproven, yet talented QB at the time. Jake was proven, and he was the leader of the team. Jake wasn't flashy but he led us to wins. Something we haven't had since Elway.

Shanahan miscalculated the impact Cutler would have on the locker room, and when he named Cutler the starter, he split the locker room and it was all down hill from there. Shanahan had to rebuild the team to suit Cutler, and it didn't work out and I have heard that after the Panthers game in 2008, that Shananan lost the locker room and that was it for him. In fact it was a very trying season for Shanahan, he put everything into it and still didn't yield the results.

I do miss those Jake Plummer days, all we did was win (39-15 with Plummer) and sometimes that wasn't good enough for some fans. I know the tailgates were crazy, and everyone had a good time that season. Hasn't been the same since, unfortunately.

TheReverend
11-05-2010, 01:01 PM
One wonders why a team,coming off a 13-3 season and AFC Championship game, peed away draft picks in 2006 for an unproven, yet talented QB at the time. Jake was proven, and he was the leader of the team. Jake wasn't flashy but he led us to wins. Something we haven't had since Elway.

Shanahan miscalculated the impact Cutler would have on the locker room, and when he named Cutler the starter, he split the locker room and it was all down hill from there. Shanahan had to rebuild the team to suit Cutler, and it didn't work out and I have heard that after the Panthers game in 2008, that Shananan lost the locker room and that was it for him. In fact it was a very trying season for Shanahan, he put everything into it and still didn't yield the results.

I do miss those Jake Plummer days, all we did was win (39-15 with Plummer) and sometimes that wasn't good enough for some fans. I know the tailgates were crazy, and everyone had a good time that season. Hasn't been the same since, unfortunately.

I loves me some Jake Plummer and hated the midseason Cutler decision, but I think the lockerroom divide is actually just trying to explain the loss of Al Wilson. Our offense's production immediately surged with Cutler in the lineup, but defensively lost our most special player of the decade... and it showed... many times over.

bendog
11-05-2010, 01:05 PM
I loves me some Jake Plummer and hated the midseason Cutler decision, but I think the lockerroom divide is actually just trying to explain the loss of Al Wilson. Our offense's production immediately surged with Cutler in the lineup, but defensively lost our most special player of the decade... and it showed... many times over.

Shanny did the same thing with Busted Blister and Son of Bob. That's why the McNabb thing isn't really surprising to me. I'm not saying I fully understand or even agree with what Shanny did/does with personnel at times.

TomServo
11-06-2010, 01:14 AM
Look, you can dance around all you want. The facts speak for themselves.

Shanahan made a decision. He chose to gut a team that was on the verge of a SB. From the day he replaced Plummer with Cutler, it was all down-hill... ending in his firing.

You can live in fantasy-land, or you can simply look at the factual information.
Plummer played his last game as a cardinal in mile high stadium. i was one of the fans that chanted "we want you jake"
we got him, shanny coached the stupid out of him all the way to the afc title game. where jake through Unforced pics. and played like jake plummer.
shanny drafts cutler, and (j)fake FOLDS.
said before Elway didnt fold w/ reeves drafted tommy maddox. Brees? when chargers got rivers?
NO, plummer,Popps Hero, QUIT.

TomServo
11-06-2010, 01:17 AM
and did i see anyone mentioning bubby brister?
did he ever start much less play for any other team after 1999?

Taco John
11-06-2010, 01:57 AM
and did i see anyone mentioning bubby brister?
did he ever start much less play for any other team after 1999?



He played some spot ball with the Vikings after he left us, but looked pretty terrible. He signed with the Chiefs after that and got cut.

fontaine
11-06-2010, 04:30 AM
Look, you can dance around all you want. The facts speak for themselves.

Shanahan made a decision. He chose to gut a team that was on the verge of a SB. From the day he replaced Plummer with Cutler, it was all down-hill... ending in his firing.

You can live in fantasy-land, or you can simply look at the factual information.

And what factual information is that?

That it was drafting Cutler and benching Plummer that got Shanahan fired?

You know, I ask because that's exactly the way McDaniels is going about it now. We've got a QB who's playing much better than Plummer and yet the head coach went out and traded a bunch of picks to draft a project QB in Tebow INSTEAD of drafting for the front 7.

I guess when Shanahan did it, it cost him his job according to Popps.

But when McDaniels is doing the same thing while the defense is falling apart it's no big deal.

s0phr0syne
11-06-2010, 06:30 AM
It helps McD's case that even though he pulled similar move, Orton responded by elevating his game several echelons over its previous level, as opposed to what Plummer did, which was either get worse, or stay the same while the team around him deteriorated.

rbackfactory80
11-06-2010, 07:01 AM
Look, you can dance around all you want. The facts speak for themselves.

Shanahan made a decision. He chose to gut a team that was on the verge of a SB. From the day he replaced Plummer with Cutler, it was all down-hill... ending in his firing.

You can live in fantasy-land, or you can simply look at the factual information.

After reading this thread, I remembered the thread where Orange 4 life had that epic meltdown about drafting Cutler. He caught hell from just about every poster on here but it looks like he knew what he was talking about.

baja
11-06-2010, 07:13 AM
After reading this thread, I remembered the thread where Orange 4 life had that epic meltdown about drafting Cutler. He caught hell from just about every poster on here but it looks like he knew what he was talking about.

That remains the best meltdown ever on the OM.

rbackfactory80
11-06-2010, 07:25 AM
That remains the best meltdown ever on the OM.

I did a search to bump it and couldn't find it. I felt it would be a worthy bump.

Spider
11-06-2010, 07:29 AM
of course Shanny expects perfection , wouldnt be much of a coach of he didnt , but on the same hand , you got to leave a light at the end of the tunnel , you cant always tear a person down

strafen
11-06-2010, 07:36 AM
Look, you can dance around all you want. The facts speak for themselves.

Shanahan made a decision. He chose to gut a team that was on the verge of a SB. From the day he replaced Plummer with Cutler, it was all down-hill... ending in his firing.

You can live in fantasy-land, or you can simply look at the factual information.Saying we didn't get any better with Cutler -which is true- is one thing.
To highly speculate like Popps can only do and say Cutler cost Shanahan his job, is a whole different story that further kills your credibility, if you have any credibility left...

CEH
11-06-2010, 07:49 AM
Look, you can dance around all you want. The facts speak for themselves.

Shanahan made a decision. He chose to gut a team that was on the verge of a SB. From the day he replaced Plummer with Cutler, it was all down-hill... ending in his firing.

You can live in fantasy-land, or you can simply look at the factual information.


"I loved what Jake did for this team, and now I think Cutler will take the reigns and do even more.

We're lucky to have had him... luckier to have had Elway and who knows, maybe luckiest to have Cutler.

What's all the ****ing moaning about? "

baja
11-06-2010, 07:50 AM
Saying we didn't get any better with Cutler -which is true- is one thing.
To highly speculate like Popps can only do and say Cutler cost Shanahan his job, is a whole different story that further kills your credibility, if you have any credibility left...

Add me to that list of people that thinks that drafting Cutler was it root cause of Shanny's demise in Denver.

strafen
11-06-2010, 07:54 AM
Add me to that list of people that thinks that drafting Cutler was it root cause of Shanny's demise in Denver.That's like saying, Tebow is the root cause for McDaniels firing if McDaniels flop again next year.
Plummer is just as bad of a QB as is Orton.
Those guys are middle of the pack QB's.
Nothing spectacular about them. Definitley not franchise type QB...

Jason in LA
11-06-2010, 08:05 AM
I loves me some Jake Plummer and hated the midseason Cutler decision, but I think the lockerroom divide is actually just trying to explain the loss of Al Wilson. Our offense's production immediately surged with Cutler in the lineup, but defensively lost our most special player of the decade... and it showed... many times over.

This is true. People tend to forget that Plummer was playing horrible in '06, which led to his benching. That year Plummer wasn't leading the team to wins, the team was leading him to wins. They were winning in spite of his horrible play. The defense was playing very well. But then the defense collapsed and they lost a couple games. That's when it was obvious that Plummer couldn't get the job done. The offensive numbers went up across the board when Culter was put in the line up, and I'd say that the switch nearly saved the season because they nearly made the playoffs. I don't think they would have won too many more games with Plummer at QB. What ever was working for him in '05 wasn't working at all in '06. He was just horrible. If the defense hadn't fallen apart in the second half of the season they would have made the playoffs with Cutler.

ro_50
11-06-2010, 08:07 AM
I've always liked Jake Plummer but dang, he's complaining a lot the past few years.

Jason in LA
11-06-2010, 08:16 AM
I wouldn't say that Cutler cost Shanny his job. Not being able to fix a horrible defense cost Shanny his job. The passing game was one of the only things working the final couple of years.

gunns
11-06-2010, 08:52 AM
Four postseason losses? What is Denver's playoff record since Pornstache left?

What has the defense been like since he left?

gunns
11-06-2010, 08:54 AM
Add me to that list of people that thinks that drafting Cutler was it root cause of Shanny's demise in Denver.

Not me, if I were Shanahan I would blame it on 10 years of overall mediocrity, 1 playoff win, and not knowing that a team needs a defense.

Popps
11-06-2010, 09:02 AM
And what factual information is that?

That it was drafting Cutler and benching Plummer that got Shanahan fired?


Factual information? How about 39 wins and 15 losses, as another pointed out.

The rumor was from the players that Shanahan lost the team with the move, and the results back that up.

But, again... you don't need to dance and play word-games. Just look at the results. Winning team with Plummer.... pure garbage after we benched him, resulting in Shanahan's eventual firing.

Things went downhill from the day he decided to gut the team and bench Plummer... until he eventually lost his job.

Keep dancing, though. Fun to watch.

strafen
11-06-2010, 09:09 AM
Factual information? How about 39 wins and 15 losses, as another pointed out.

The rumor was from the players that Shanahan lost the team with the move, and the results back that up.

But, again... you don't need to dance and play word-games. Just look at the results. Winning team with Plummer.... pure garbage after we benched him, resulting in Shanahan's eventual firing.

Things went downhill from the day he decided to gut the team and bench Plummer... until he eventually lost his job.

Keep dancing, though. Fun to watch.
Word for word, that sounds eerily similar to what's going on here with the Broncos.
Will history repeat itself?

You love to bring Shanahan in when covering for Josh, may be it's fair to say Josh will run the same fate as Shanahan, except in a much shorter tenure...

rbackfactory80
11-06-2010, 09:20 AM
Word for word, that sounds eerily similar to what's going on here with the Broncos.
Will history repeat itself?

You love to bring Shanahan in when covering for Josh, may be it's fair to say Josh will run the same fate as Shanahan, except in a much shorter tenure...

Yeah real similar except for the most important part, 39-15. That's 39-15 in the NFL.

24champ
11-06-2010, 12:12 PM
This is true. People tend to forget that Plummer was playing horrible in '06, which led to his benching. That year Plummer wasn't leading the team to wins, the team was leading him to wins. They were winning in spite of his horrible play. The defense was playing very well. But then the defense collapsed and they lost a couple games. That's when it was obvious that Plummer couldn't get the job done. The offensive numbers went up across the board when Culter was put in the line up, and I'd say that the switch nearly saved the season because they nearly made the playoffs. I don't think they would have won too many more games with Plummer at QB. What ever was working for him in '05 wasn't working at all in '06. He was just horrible. If the defense hadn't fallen apart in the second half of the season they would have made the playoffs with Cutler.

Plummer was the General of that team, it was HIS team. He owned that locker room. The team had been through a lot of tough games and the playoffs with Plummer. If you read Steven Fatsis book, the team really didn't KNOW Cutler as a QB or more importantly, as a person. As a result the locker room was immediately split.

It was a mistake to bench Plummer at 7-4 and put a ROOKIE QB in a Playoff race, regardless of how the offense was doing. Cutler also was raw in mechanics and leadership, he clearly wasn't ready and as a result made rookie mistakes down the stretch, the Seattle game comes to mind. Broncos went 2-3 down the stretch with Cutler, it's fair to say that the QB switch...failed.

baja
11-06-2010, 12:16 PM
Plummer was the General of that team, it was HIS team. He owned that locker room. The team had been through a lot of tough games and the playoffs with Plummer. If you read Steven Fatsis book, the team really didn't KNOW Cutler as a QB or more importantly, as a person. As a result the locker room was immediately split.

It was a mistake to bench Plummer at 7-4 and put a ROOKIE QB in a Playoff race, regardless of how the offense was doing. Cutler also was raw in mechanics and leadership, he clearly wasn't ready and as a result made rookie mistakes down the stretch, the Seattle game comes to mind. <b>Broncos went 2-3 down the stretch with Cutler, it's fair to say that the QB switch...failed.

Not only did it fail it eventually cost Shanny his job.

Jason in LA
11-06-2010, 12:30 PM
Plummer was the General of that team, it was HIS team. He owned that locker room. The team had been through a lot of tough games and the playoffs with Plummer. If you read Steven Fatsis book, the team really didn't KNOW Cutler as a QB or more importantly, as a person. As a result the locker room was immediately split.

It was a mistake to bench Plummer at 7-4 and put a ROOKIE QB in a Playoff race, regardless of how the offense was doing. Cutler also was raw in mechanics and leadership, he clearly wasn't ready and as a result made rookie mistakes down the stretch, the Seattle game comes to mind. Broncos went 2-3 down the stretch with Cutler, it's fair to say that the QB switch...failed.

Yes, they went 2-3 with Cutler. But with the way the defense fell apart and Plummer playing horrible, I wouldn't be confident that they'd win another game with Plummer at QB. They put Cutler in and scoring and yards per game went up. Final game of the season it was win and they're in. The way Plummer was playing mixed with a bad defense wouldn't of had them in that position. And it wasn't Cutler who let Frank Gore run for over 200 yards, knocking them out of the playoffs.

Popps
11-06-2010, 01:16 PM
Not only did it fail it eventually cost Shanny his job.

The bummer about that around here is that more people are upset that they were wrong... than the fact that Shanahan's decisions cost him his job and the fans the best coach we ever had.

bpc
11-06-2010, 05:05 PM
Plummer was the General of that team, it was HIS team. He owned that locker room. The team had been through a lot of tough games and the playoffs with Plummer. If you read Steven Fatsis book, the team really didn't KNOW Cutler as a QB or more importantly, as a person. As a result the locker room was immediately split.

It was a mistake to bench Plummer at 7-4 and put a ROOKIE QB in a Playoff race, regardless of how the offense was doing. Cutler also was raw in mechanics and leadership, he clearly wasn't ready and as a result made rookie mistakes down the stretch, the Seattle game comes to mind. Broncos went 2-3 down the stretch with Cutler, it's fair to say that the QB switch...failed.

MMmmm, fail post. The loss to KC on Thanksgiving broke the horses back and we lost control of our futures at that point. Plummer merely necessitated it with his BS approach to the game and play on the field.

Let us all not forget, the offense was a better producer coming down the stretch w/ Cutler at the helm. Unfortunately, Al Wilson had a career ending injury and then the defense couldn't stop anybody. But don't let the facts fool ya.

bpc
11-06-2010, 05:08 PM
Look, you can dance around all you want. The facts speak for themselves.

Shanahan made a decision. He chose to gut a team that was on the verge of a SB. From the day he replaced Plummer with Cutler, it was all down-hill... ending in his firing.

You can live in fantasy-land, or you can simply look at the factual information.

heh. How is fantasy land? You seem to be there quite a bit these days.

"Plummer was great! Cutler sucked! McDaniels is great! Shanahan sucks!"

2-6 bro and you're looking dumber by the moment. It's highly entertaining though, keep it up!

Popps
11-06-2010, 05:43 PM
heh. How is fantasy land? You seem to be there quite a bit these days.

"Plummer was great! Cutler sucked! McDaniels is great! Shanahan sucks!"

2-6 bro and you're looking dumber by the moment. It's highly entertaining though, keep it up!

Oh wait, we're changing the subject, Chris? Not unusual for you.

You've been on the wrong side of so many issues, I'm surprised you show your face here. Of course, you only show your face here when we're losing.

Odd that being "right" is so important to someone who's as off-base as anyone I've ever seen post here. Oh, and you hate the Broncos... then there's that little issue.

Anyway, you're a Jay Cutler fan, not a Broncos fan. You made that loud and clear when you jumped ship to join the Bears last season.

Only problem is, Jay cost our great coach his job. Too bad. Hopefully we can return to winning games again at some point like we did with Jake behind center.

Good luck to your bears this season... or, have you flipped on them, too?

Popps
11-06-2010, 05:45 PM
It was a mistake to bench Plummer at 7-4 and put a ROOKIE QB in a Playoff race, regardless of how the offense was doing. Cutler also was raw in mechanics and leadership, he clearly wasn't ready and as a result made rookie mistakes down the stretch, the Seattle game comes to mind. Broncos went 2-3 down the stretch with Cutler, it's fair to say that the QB switch...failed.

Look, no amount of factual information is going to push these bitter people off of their myths. All the facts are on the table for people, but a few just won't ever be able to admit they were wrong.

Such is life.

strafen
11-06-2010, 06:18 PM
Not only did it fail it eventually cost Shanny his job.

Oh boy. I now see what Popps has created. It must be true! Hilarious!

strafen
11-06-2010, 06:26 PM
Look, no amount of factual information is going to push these bitter people off of their myths. All the facts are on the table for people, but a few just won't ever be able to admit they were wrong.

Such is life.Nobody is saying the QB swith was the right decision IN HINDSIGHT.
However, Shanahan felt Plummer was a liability.
He was turning the ball over left and right at the worst moments.
Plummer wasn't going to take us to the Superbowl anyways. He was close, but he FAILED.
With that said. Plummer in his career threw for 161 TD's and 161 INT's
Numbers that only Cutler himself would be proud of...

baja
11-06-2010, 07:20 PM
Oh boy. I now see what Popps has created. It must be true! Hilarious!

This didn't come from Popps I have a very old thread suggesting this theory.

Jason in LA
11-06-2010, 07:42 PM
In '07 Plummer completed only 55% of his passes, and threw 13 ints to only 10 TDs in 10 games. He had a QB rating of 68 and I believe the Broncos were only averaging 17 points per game. Why would anybody think that with him playing that bad that he would have led them to the playoffs when the defense had fallen apart?

Popps
11-06-2010, 08:44 PM
This didn't come from Popps I have a very old thread suggesting this theory.

Yea, and also the fact that it's blatantly obvious to anyone with eyes and a functioning brain.

Popps
11-06-2010, 08:48 PM
With that said. Plummer in his career threw for 161 TD's and 161 INT's.

Who cares what he did in Arizona or in pee-wee. Go find a Cardinals board if you want to talk about pre-Denver Plummer.

I care about what players do in Denver.

Jake had a 2:1 TD/INT ratio and won games at around a .750 clip.

Get back to me when we have another QB who can do that, and we'll chat... cool?

phillybroncosnut
11-06-2010, 08:52 PM
McNabb might be the most over rated QB by the NATIONAL media I've ever seen. Philly media has always had it right with this guy. He is an ok NFL QB but no way a great QB. Chokes and crumbles in key spots. Will look like a superstar against weak defenses but looks like a rookie in big spots.
Sorry, Rush was correct and got fired by the PC police.

Now, I await the Omane PC police. Doesnt matter because it is what it is.

strafen
11-06-2010, 10:01 PM
Who cares what he did in Arizona or in pee-wee. Go find a Cardinals board if you want to talk about pre-Denver Plummer.

I care about what players do in Denver.

Jake had a 2:1 TD/INT ratio and won games at around a .750 clip.

Get back to me when we have another QB who can do that, and we'll chat... cool?

What a player accomplish in his career is what he is.
Plummer sucks just as much as Orton does
They're both terrible. People were talking about Orton's W/L record before he came to Denver, no?
But his personal stats told a different story. Same thing with Plummer...
He put irrelevant numbers here. A typical Sunday stats for Plummer would read something like 16-21 170 yds, 1TD 2 Int's
He's had plenty of that. Like Orton, Plummer needed to have a good defense and a good team all around for him to win for you. That's a reason why he sucked in Arizona. He wasn't a game breaker by any stretch of the word...

phillybroncosnut
11-06-2010, 10:06 PM
What a player accomplish in his career is what he is.
Plummer sucks just as much as Orton does
They're both terrible. People were talking about Orton's W/L record before he came to Denver, no?
But his personal stats told a different story. Same thing with Plummer...
He put irrelevant numbers here. A typical Sunday stats for Plummer would read something like 16-21 170 yds, 1TD 2 Int's
He's had plenty of that. Like Orton, Plummer needed to have a good defense and a good team all around for him to win for you. That's a reason why he sucked in Arizona. He wasn't a game breaker by any stretch of the word...

Orton is the least of our worries. I wouldnt say he is horrible. He is decent. Not great but FAR from Horrible. Look at the O-Line and D-Line for your answers. Orton can win alot of games in this league with the right mix. Problem is, this is a work in progress in Denver since Josh took over and the rebuild began. The answers to the question marks on Oline and D line havent been solved yet. Blaming Orton (yes, saying he is horrible is blaming him) is like blaming Prater for us sucking.

strafen
11-06-2010, 10:17 PM
Orton is the least of our worries. I wouldnt say he is horrible. He is decent. Not great but FAR from Horrible. Look at the O-Line and D-Line for your answers. Orton can win alot of games in this league with the right mix. Problem is, this is a work in progress in Denver since Josh took over and the rebuild began. The answers to the question marks on Oline and D line havent been solved yet. Blaming Orton (yes, saying he is horrible is blaming him) is like blaming Prater for us sucking.

Come on man. How many games this season alone, has Orton ended with a turnover?
Those were games that while behind in the score, we've had a chance to win, and he failed to rally the team to victory.

Big time QB's find a way to win, and in Orton's case, he's had a chance to shine and because of this, his status as an average QB is not going to change anytime soon.

The QB plays a big part of our game. Like I've said, had he been able to pull at least two wins when he had the chance, we would at least been sitting at 4-4 right now.

Yes, DL and the OL have their issues, but Orton flopped when we needed him the most; when you expect a QB to make the plays to win the game...

bpc
11-06-2010, 10:26 PM
Oh wait, we're changing the subject, Chris? Not unusual for you.

You've been on the wrong side of so many issues, I'm surprised you show your face here. Of course, you only show your face here when we're losing.

Odd that being "right" is so important to someone who's as off-base as anyone I've ever seen post here. Oh, and you hate the Broncos... then there's that little issue.

Anyway, you're a Jay Cutler fan, not a Broncos fan. You made that loud and clear when you jumped ship to join the Bears last season.

Only problem is, Jay cost our great coach his job. Too bad. Hopefully we can return to winning games again at some point like we did with Jake behind center.

Good luck to your bears this season... or, have you flipped on them, too?

Far from a Bears fan. I've been finding myself pulling for Shanny more than anything else though. Too bad he can't play like he can coach, the Skins would be undefeated.

I always state this but you don't listen: It's hard NOT to come here after a loss. Since your boy was anointed the crown prince of Denver and he ran off any semblance of a experienced professional in the front office or on our coaching staff, we've been having a whole bunch of whoop-ass opened up on us. Honestly, we're the laughing stock of the league now. 2-6 bro. You lose. It's not really a surprise. You were more of character hater than a fan in all respects. You couldn't stand Shanahan and you've gone out of your way to take shots at him going on three or four years now, even to the silly point of defending that loser Jake Plummer. "Mike expected me to do things the right way and spend extra hours watching film, WAAAAAAHHHHHH!"

It isn't hard to catch you flipping your tune now though. You bitched and moaned about devoting resources towards the DL for years until McDaniels came to town. Now you haven't said **** about it. Of course, with the hiring of McGenius, all of our previous problems (like consistent winning) have been chased away.

Keep flipping buddy. You've been exposed. Everybody knows you're a tool now who's given in so much to your emotions, you can't even provide a genuine take about our Broncos anymore. BTW, my favorite posts are your ridiculous fluffer threads after we get our ass handed to us on Sunday. I don't know a person that doesn't expect you to spew your bull**** while deflecting responsibility for these mounting losses from McDaniels.

strafen
11-06-2010, 10:34 PM
Only problem is, Jay cost our great coach his job. Too bad. Hopefully we can return to winning games again at some point like we did with Jake behind center. You're sure relentless when it comes to passing your made-up bull**** as fact.
It must now be true that Jay Cutler cost Shanahan his job. :rofl:
Boy, at this point you just have run out of whatever little credibility you've had left.

Aside from one or two bozos here who love to Amen any ridiculous statement you come up with, I think the rest of us view you as a clown...

bpc
11-06-2010, 10:41 PM
Who cares what he did in Arizona or in pee-wee. Go find a Cardinals board if you want to talk about pre-Denver Plummer.

I care about what players do in Denver.

Jake had a 2:1 TD/INT ratio and won games at around a .750 clip.

Get back to me when we have another QB who can do that, and we'll chat... cool?

You should, king of contradiction: You bash Shanahan, yet hype Plummer. If you paid attention to the stats, you would see the only reason Jake wasn't ran out of the league earlier is because Shanahan found a way to use his mobility to win games. Lord knows it wasn't with his arm.

BTW, you tear Mike apart for not winning a playoff game from 01-05. Where's your criticism of Plummer during that period? Our losses were largely due to Jake pissing down his leg when faced with the probability that he would have to out-play Peyton Manning, game after game. Mike brought the run game. Unfortunately he couldn't smoke and mirror Jake's way into a super bowl champion. He did a damn good job of calling his games in 05', going 13-3. Gave him a chance. Predictably Jake snoozed through the Patriots game, almost losing that one before the defense gave him a reprieve. It only took him a full week to choke his next opportunity and ful-fill his disastrous playoff destiny, throwing away the game at home against the Steelers costing us the super bowl.

Anyways, hypocrite on. We're all enjoying you make an ass out of yourself. Don't let stats stand in your way.

Cito Pelon
11-06-2010, 10:56 PM
Imagine. A coach wanting perfection...

Thank God Josh doesn't want perfection out of our guys.

Does that mean you want Josh to ride the players hard no matter what?

Or do you mean that Josh should take it easy on them and realize they have shortcomings?

Or are you just gonna complain about whatever he does until the team starts winning?

Popps
11-06-2010, 11:09 PM
Anyway, this has bee good bye week fun.

Thankfully, we have factual information to make this discussion very simple.

I look forward to winning games with our next winning QB like Jake.

baja
11-06-2010, 11:23 PM
You're sure relentless when it comes to passing your made-up bull**** as fact.
It must now be true that Jay Cutler cost Shanahan his job. :rofl:
Boy, at this point you just have run out of whatever little credibility you've had left.

<b>Aside from one or two bozos here who love to Amen any ridiculous statement you come up with,<b> I think the rest of us view you as a clown...
I highly doubt you speak for any other poster here. you should rethink the us business.

strafen
11-06-2010, 11:28 PM
I highly doubt you speak for any other poster here. you should rethink the us business.You're the other bozo I'm talking about :strong:
Obviously, the homers here won't call out Popps, you know that, he knows that, and everybody knows that. That's why he can pretty much say whatever bullcrap he makes up and it will easily pass here as a fact.
There are some of us with cohones that will call his crap out...

Popps
11-06-2010, 11:29 PM
I highly doubt you speak for any other poster here. you should rethink the us business.

It's funny to hear trolls use words like "we."

baja
11-06-2010, 11:32 PM
You're the other bozo I'm talking about :strong:


Because I am reserving judgment until the end of the season?

I see your point, how silly of me.


Fire the bum now and get Vince Lombardi in here right now.

strafen
11-06-2010, 11:33 PM
It's funny to hear trolls use words like "we."Define trolls?
Trolls because we've questioned McDaniels, been questioning McDaniels decisions ever since he started messing with our team?
Trolls because WE are now right on what we talked about and got insulted and attacked for it?
Then, I'll be happy to be a troll....

strafen
11-06-2010, 11:35 PM
Because I am reserving judgment until the end of the season?

I see your point, how silly of me.


Fire the bum now and get Vince Lombardi in here right now.

You may be reserving judgement, but I'm sure as hell, you'll still be in Mcdaniels camp even if we end up worse.

baja
11-06-2010, 11:40 PM
You may be reserving judgement, but I'm sure as hell, you'll still be in Mcdaniels camp even if we end up worse.

Want'a know what's funny?

With your every post you display for all to see how deeply stupid your statements are and that fact goes right over your head.

Actually you'e quite the blow hard dude.


....but carry on

Cito Pelon
11-07-2010, 12:19 AM
Because I am reserving judgment until the end of the season?

I see your point, how silly of me.


Fire the bum now and get Vince Lombardi in here right now.

I thought it was Marty, Cowher, or Gruden. Same thing, I guess.

TomServo
11-07-2010, 01:10 AM
I look forward to winning games with our next winning QB like Jake.
yay the winner jake. jake who QUIT w/we drafted cutler. jake who folded, quit.
jake who couldnt even follow craig morton and go to another team and "show them they were wrong"
go follow jake on his handball tour. this is the NFL and apparently jake couldnt handle it.

TomServo
11-07-2010, 01:20 AM
just like the friends my boys want to hang with or the boy that wants to date my daughter,..............sometimes you know! they are Losers.
McD is is in way over his head. some of us can see it. bad news on the doorstep.the only comfort is more and more people can see it.

Jason in LA
11-07-2010, 08:20 AM
just like the friends my boys want to hang with or the boy that wants to date my daughter,..............sometimes you know! they are Losers.
McD is is in way over his head. some of us can see it. bad news on the doorstep.the only comfort is more and more people can see it.

Yep, I'd say McD is in over his head. This is the team he built, and this team sucks. He can't blame the talent he was given, because he got rid of nearly all the Shanahan guys and brought in his own guys.

Popps
11-07-2010, 09:03 AM
just like the friends my boys want to hang with or the boy that wants to date my daughter,..............sometimes you know! they are Losers. .

Well, we can pretty much shut down this thread.

I mean, you don't get any more fair, detailed and scientific than that analysis.

"Sometimes you know."


PB - "Yea, sorry Josh... gotta cut ties, buddy."

JM - "Half-way through my second season? That's pretty quick, Pat."

PB - "Yea, some guy who watches from his living room said he just knows. Compared it to a guy his daughter dated. I mean, I can't ignore that kind of rock-solid information. Thanks for the efforts.

JM - "I totally understand."

fontaine
11-07-2010, 11:47 AM
Factual information? How about 39 wins and 15 losses, as another pointed out.

The rumor was from the players that Shanahan lost the team with the move, and the results back that up.

But, again... you don't need to dance and play word-games. Just look at the results. Winning team with Plummer.... pure garbage after we benched him, resulting in Shanahan's eventual firing.

Things went downhill from the day he decided to gut the team and bench Plummer... until he eventually lost his job.

Keep dancing, though. Fun to watch.

Shanahan, then Bowlen, then McDaniels ALL thought Cutler was the QB for this franchise. Hell, McDaniels in his very first press conference heaped praise on Cutler and indicated how excited he was about working with him.

Shanahan was fired here because of his horrible mistakes on defense that cost this team every year.

You're so used to defending McD and blaming Shanahan/Cutler that you can barely seperate facts from your own fantasy.

Fact: Every year you constantly whined and moaned about Shanahan never doing enough to build a proper DL.

But yet, now you claim it was benching Plummer that got Shanahn fired?

LOL

keep dreaming.

oubronco
11-07-2010, 12:09 PM
Yep, I'd say McD is in over his head. This is the team he built, and this team sucks. He can't blame the talent he was given, because he got rid of nearly all the Shanahan guys and brought in his own guys.

This is absolutely true but give him one more draft and offseason to get some bigger better guys in the trenches and then see what he does. If he still produces **** then he deserves to be ****canned

TheReverend
11-07-2010, 02:23 PM
Shanahan, then Bowlen, then McDaniels ALL thought Cutler was the QB for this franchise. Hell, McDaniels in his very first press conference heaped praise on Cutler and indicated how excited he was about working with him.

Shanahan was fired here because of his horrible mistakes on defense that cost this team every year.

You're so used to defending McD and blaming Shanahan/Cutler that you can barely seperate facts from your own fantasy.

Fact: Every year you constantly whined and moaned about Shanahan never doing enough to build a proper DL.

But yet, now you claim it was benching Plummer that got Shanahn fired?

LOL

keep dreaming.

Don't forget, McD doing the same approach only garners praise from Popps now.

Popps
11-07-2010, 02:29 PM
Don't forget, McD doing the same approach only garners praise from Popps now.

Oh, I loved the Williams moves... and the other FA DE's we brought in.... on paper.

Not working out, though.

Now, he's got to go heavy in the draft AND FA.

Having our starting OLB's would be helpful, though.

bpc
11-07-2010, 02:40 PM
Oh, I loved the Williams moves... and the other FA DE's we brought in.... on paper.

Not working out, though.

Now, he's got to go heavy in the draft AND FA.

Having our starting OLB's would be helpful, though.

Flash back to Popps circa 2003: "Damn you Mike Shanahan, i'm sick of your stupid FA DL pickups. FA pickup's including guys past their prime is a failure waiting to happen! We should be drafting young players and in-fusing youth and talent into our front 7. Anybody who adopts this method of team building should be canned!"

2010: "Oh, I loved the Williams moves... and the other FA DE's we brought in.... we'll NEVER need to draft front seven players with McD's genius and knowledge of all things Patriot"

24champ
11-07-2010, 03:58 PM
Shanahan, then Bowlen, then McDaniels ALL thought Cutler was the QB for this franchise. Hell, McDaniels in his very first press conference heaped praise on Cutler and indicated how excited he was about working with him.

Shanahan was fired here because of his horrible mistakes on defense that cost this team every year.

You're so used to defending McD and blaming Shanahan/Cutler that you can barely seperate facts from your own fantasy.

Fact: Every year you constantly whined and moaned about Shanahan never doing enough to build a proper DL.

But yet, now you claim it was benching Plummer that got Shanahn fired?

LOL

keep dreaming.

Let's be real, the draft in 2006 basically set the stage for another rebuild of the offense. That was the beginning of the end for the defense, instead of providing the team with depth through the draft picks we stockpiled for the 2006 draft. We had to throw away some picks away to maneuver for Cutler (who we didn't need) and Javon Walker. Through all that, the organization missed an opportunity to build off of the 2005 AFC Championship appearance, instead Shanny and CO. threw in the towel and decided for a rebuild. It was a risky move,and one that ultimately failed on Shanahan's part as a GM.


I still don't understand the draft process thought of Shanahan in 2006, we know he fell in love with Cutler's arm and abilities. Great, but I was perplexed as to why he was not doing enough homework on Cutler, and didn't see his leadership skills, what type of person he was. He simply made a couple phone calls and asked other coaches like Fisher, what their opinion of Jay Cutler was. I mean Stefan Fatsis spent just a little time with Jay and made the observation that he was aloof, not really a leader. If Shanahan spent a little time with Jay prior to the draft, things might have gone differently.