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View Full Version : Another midterm look: Then and Now...


Popps
11-02-2010, 05:16 PM
So, amidst the gloom and doom around here, I thought I'd take a look at where we were in each department after 1.5 seasons as opposed to at the end of the 08 season.

This year started out rough with the injuries, and then poor play and bad breaks helped the woes continue.

Still, I figured it was worth trying to cut through the emotion to see where we really were as a team. Like anything of this nature, this stuff is completely subjective. But, here's a quick rundown of how I see it.


QB - BETTER - This is pretty much a no-brainer on every level. I don't assume I have to explain this one.

RB - WORSE - Moreno has more talent than any feature back we had in 08, in my opinion. But, Shanahan's system made productive
players out of guys like Hillis, Young and Cellphone Bell. But, Moreno needs to be on the field more and when he is... our fat guys
have to push the other team's fat guys in such a way that actually creates an open space to utilize. I think this department could go
from worse to better in a big hurry if people get healthy and the rookies improve just a little.

WR - BETTER - Our #1 receiver is outperforming our prior #1 receiver in yards and TD's, and the top to bottom talent at WR is much better.
It's a different system, but the numbers and depth are improving.

OL - WORSE - Some of this is injuries. If Clady/Harris were healthy, this might look a little different. Two rookies in the interior don't help either, but
hopefully we're developing at least one of them to be a quality starter in the future. We need to do more work here.

TE - WORSE - I didn't mind losing Scheffler. He was hurt as much as healthy. But, Graham seems to have fallen off and we're not getting much
production at TE, receiving-wise. The counter-argument here might be that we are seeing more overall passing targets used, including the backs
so it's somewhat of a wash.

OFFENSIVE DEPTH - BETTER - We've not got an intriguing prospect at back-up QB and a couple of young receivers that I think we're all very
excited about seeing more of.

ST's -BETTER- This is very close, but do think overall we're covering kicks better and kicking more reliably than under the prior admin. The last two
games being notable exceptions, of course. We also have to get more going in the return game.

DL - PUSH - This is also very close and that pains me to say. I really liked some of the moves we made with Williams and some of the other
pick-ups. But thus far, they're not faring much better than the garbage the prior admin had out there. The big wild-card here is that in the 3-4 defense,
you're getting your pass-rush from the OLB's, which IS a major area of improvement for us. So, if you include the entire front 7, we're definitely better.

LB - BETTER - When totally healthy, 3 of our 4 LB's are between B- and A- players, imo. We have a major need at ILB still, but this group is
better overall.

S - BETTER - Yes, Dawkins is near the end, but we've got a little depth and when healthy, this group is clearly better than when McD took over
the team.

CB's - BETTER - Goodman is better than Bly (etc.) when healthy, and we've absolutely got more young role players and potential future starters
than we did at the end of 08.

POSITION COACHING - WORSE - Of course, none of us are at practice so we're all just guessing. But, we're seeing way too many silly ****-ups out there on game-day. Of course, there are exceptions. I think our QB/WR's are playing very well. But, we've made costly, stupid mistakes all season long and that has to change.

PLAYCALLING - PUSH - I'll probably get some argument here, but people have short memories. People b****ed incessantly about Shanahan's game-day calling, despite
him being one of the best, imo. I think McDaniels is calling things appropriately most of the time, and I don't mind that he's aggressive and even a gambler at times.
The lack of a running game is a talent/execution thing, not a play-calling issue. Still, I think it can and will improve.

TRADES - PUSH - McDaniels has had a home run, and a couple of definite ground-outs. (And got beaned by a pitch on the A. Smith situation.) Shanahan didn't make a ton of trades, but had some great ones and some stinkers.

DRAFT AND FREE AGENCY - PUSH - I think we're doing better in free agency overall, and I think the draft situation is very close. Shanahan finally pulled a few decent players out of the last couple of drafts, or this would definitely be a "BETTER," as well. I think the trend is leaning towards better, though. We've had some hits (and misses) in free agency and these past two drafts are looking good as far as yielding talent. Now, there is an argument to be made about WHAT KIND of talent we're pulling in. I think we'd all like to see more future starters for the front seven join Ayers from this upcoming draft.


How do you see it?

colonelbeef
11-02-2010, 05:17 PM
home run and ground outs eh? He swung and lost his bat in the stands, homer

WABronco
11-02-2010, 05:49 PM
He broke his bat and it was obviously corked. Fuggin' cheater.

gyldenlove
11-02-2010, 05:54 PM
PLAYCALLING - PUSH - I'll probably get some argument here, but people have short memories. People b****ed incessantly about Shanahan's game-day calling, despite
him being one of the best, imo. I think McDaniels is calling things appropriately most of the time, and I don't mind that he's aggressive and even a gambler at times.
The lack of a running game is a talent/execution thing, not a play-calling issue. Still, I think it can and will improve.

TRADES - PUSH - McDaniels has had a home run, and a couple of definite ground-outs. (And got beaned by a pitch on the A. Smith situation.) Shanahan didn't make a ton of trades, but had some great ones and some stinkers.

DRAFT AND FREE AGENCY - PUSH - I think we're doing better in free agency overall, and I think the draft situation is very close. Shanahan finally pulled a few decent players out of the last couple of drafts, or this would definitely be a "BETTER," as well. I think the trend is leaning towards better, though. We've had some hits (and misses) in free agency and these past two drafts are looking good as far as yielding talent. Now, there is an argument to be made about WHAT KIND of talent we're pulling in. I think we'd all like to see more future starters for the front seven join Ayers from this upcoming draft.



I agree on the play calling, Shanahan was a very strong game starter, he was phenomenal in the 1st quarter of games, but faded as the game wore on. Mcdaniels seems to have his biggest forte in 2 minute drills and seems to peak around halftime, with a solid end to the 2nd quarter and good beginning to the 3rd. Mcdaniels does use more trick plays and exotic formations, but doesn't seem willing to tough it out some times.

I agree it is a push, defensively right now I would call it a push as well, Martindale is not the DC I thought he was.

For the trades, it really comes down to do you like slow and steady or do you prefer the rollercoaster. Mcdaniels has made some good trades value wise and some stinkers, Shanahan made few trades and they often fell in the middle of the road with a few exceptions either way.

Draft and Free Agency. Mcdaniels wins the free agency thing, he has added a number of contributors such as Lloyd, Gaffney, Goodman, Dawkins, Buckhalter as free agents. He has also struck out on Nate Jones, Jarvis Green et al. Shanahan tended to just strike out. In the draft, we have had more misses than we should have had and the direction and management of the draft has been less than stellar I think. Shanahan tended to get good value in draft trades when he made them and although for a long period of his reign we were easily the worst drafting team in the league, it really picked up the last few years. Mcdaniels seems to have hit on a few players so far, Ayers, Thomas and Cox at least and missed on a few as well, Quinn, Smith. Probably too soon to really compare the drafting, but a push seems fair.

loborugger
11-02-2010, 06:06 PM
Its like the team focused solely this off season on the passing game. Or, its the only thing the coach really knows how to coach and improve. This team is 6 & 2 (or better) if we could play in all facets of the game as well as they do in the passing game.

Popps
11-02-2010, 06:08 PM
I agree it is a push, defensively right now I would call it a push as well, Martindale is not the DC I thought he was..

I'm not very impressed with what I'm seeing from Martindale right now.

I absolutely understand that it's hard to play without your two best pass-rushers. (Etc.)

However, one "too many/few men on the field" penalties in a season is one too many. What have we had... 4? 5? Damned near one per game?

It's absolute embarrass.

loborugger
11-02-2010, 06:11 PM
I'm not very impressed with what I'm seeing from Martindale right now.

I absolutely understand that it's hard to play without your two best pass-rushers. (Etc.)

However, one "too many/few men on the field" penalties in a season is one too many. What have we had... 4? 5? Damned near one per game?

It's absolute embarrass.

Well - going back to the notion (be it false or not) that the team focused on only one aspect - our defense is definitely improved in the 3/4 & 1 to go. They are vastly improved in that phase of the game. Its gone from 3 & 1 was as good as 1st down (or TD), to we are probably gonna get the ball back.

Which makes it even more frustrating that over all we are so piss poor against the run.

baja
11-02-2010, 06:20 PM
Popps you got a typo in the backup QB segment of your OP, says the opposite of what I think you want to say. ;D

gyldenlove
11-02-2010, 07:05 PM
I'm not very impressed with what I'm seeing from Martindale right now.

I absolutely understand that it's hard to play without your two best pass-rushers. (Etc.)

However, one "too many/few men on the field" penalties in a season is one too many. What have we had... 4? 5? Damned near one per game?

It's absolute embarrass.

My biggest problem with Martindale is that this defense is the antithesis of what we were trying to achieve. They wanted to be more physical, they wanted to stop the run and they wanted to be smart, and those are probably the 3 things that least describe our defense.

baja
11-02-2010, 07:13 PM
My biggest problem with Martindale is that this defense is the antithesis of what we were trying to achieve. They wanted to be more physical, they wanted to stop the run and they wanted to be smart, and those are probably the 3 things that least describe our defense.

It hurts to read that because it's true.

Popps
11-02-2010, 07:14 PM
My biggest problem with Martindale is that this defense is the antithesis of what we were trying to achieve. They wanted to be more physical, they wanted to stop the run and they wanted to be smart, and those are probably the 3 things that least describe our defense.

Yea, Goodman just stopping on that route Sunday was unacceptable. I know he's hurt and hasn't probably been practicing, but these things are happening too much.

Still, with absolutely no pass-rush, you have to give Wink somewhat of a flier in his first season.

We have to figure out a way to get more stout up front, too. I'm shocked that Williams hasn't made more of a difference. I guess we just need to continue to look at the DE spots, because there just seem to be gaps for RB's to run through on every down.

Tombstone RJ
11-02-2010, 07:26 PM
QB - PUSH - Orton is healthy and that's a good thing, yes, he's elevated his game some what. That being said, I've preached on this site over and over that he's still innacurate at times and makes bone headed throws. He is not "rising" to the occassion IMHO. If the Broncos are mathmatically eliminated from the playoffs, I'm kinda pushing for Tebow. I don't think it will stunt his growth that much if the Broncos play him with the understanding that his growth is what is important, not necessarily wins. However, this may in fact decrease Orton's value at the end of the year.

RB - PUSH - Moreno is still an unknown as of right now. The oline is what is really struggling. I'm inclined to think the RB situation might be better than we realize if we had decent run blocking.

WR - PUSH - Yah, I'm glad Marshall is gone and yah, I'm loving me some DT. Yes, Lloyd is playing fantastic (aside from the occassional easy drop) and yes, the other WR's look productive. All that being said, it's not translating to wins. End story here.

OL - WORSE - I'm really disappointed in the oline and I'm not sure if it's more of a coaching issue than a talent issue. Right now, it might be both. That being said, I don't like the oline coaching, IMHO, it looks like guys are unmotivated, confused and frustrated. Shame on coaches!.

TE - WORSE - The spread offense doesn't need a pass catching threat at TE. Sure, it's nice to have a pass catching TE but it's not essential. Right now, Quinn looks like Quap so McD has that going for him. The reality of the situation is the running game still sucks with these guys.

OFFENSIVE DEPTH - BETTER - Yah, ok I'll give McD some credit here. If the pieces can all come together than perhaps this offense will be more consistent.

ST's -BETTER- Eh, ok. The kicking game is still inconsistent.

DL - WORSE - I really thought this unit would be better. With Doom going down I knew sacks would be hard to come by but I thought the ability to stop the run would be better. However, it looks like I am wrong.

LB - BETTER - Get Doom back and combine him with a healthy Ayers and I think we have a good outside LBer combo. I'm still not completely sold on the interior guys. I'd love a young stud MLB with a nasty attitude. I wanted Spikes in this last draft but oh well.

S - PUSH - Move Champ to safety and I think this unit is better next year. Right now, I'm not so sure.

CB's - BETTER - McD whiffed on Phonz and scored on Cox. Squid looks like he might have some potential.

POSITION COACHING - WORSE - The oline coaching comes to mind here. Also, not sure about the dline coaching either.

PLAYCALLING - PUSH - McD can be very frustrating at times. Still, with no run game what can he do? .

TRADES - PUSH - McDaniels initially looks good in some trades and bad in other trades, but I guess you can't win them all. I defended the Phonz trade when it happened and he may still turn out to be a great CB, but in the end, it's trades like this that kill a team's ability to grow.

DRAFT AND FREE AGENCY - PUSH - The draft looks better, but it's still a little hard to tell if it was hella better than 2009. FA? Well, at least he's not as sucky as Shanny was.

gyldenlove
11-02-2010, 07:40 PM
Yea, Goodman just stopping on that route Sunday was unacceptable. I know he's hurt and hasn't probably been practicing, but these things are happening too much.

Still, with absolutely no pass-rush, you have to give Wink somewhat of a flier in his first season.

We have to figure out a way to get more stout up front, too. I'm shocked that Williams hasn't made more of a difference. I guess we just need to continue to look at the DE spots, because there just seem to be gaps for RB's to run through on every down.

The injuries somewhat excuse the lack of pass rush and the problems in the secondary, but in no way, shape or form is it an excuse when it comes to the utter suckage that has been the defensive line. They are worse than last year despite being a lot more expensive. The defensive line regularly gets pushed around in both pass and run situations, that is a killer for a 3-4 defense, and I believe that is the main reason we switched to 4-3, simply because the 3 guys up front got outworked and outmuscled by 3 offensive linemen.

_Oro_
11-02-2010, 07:43 PM
QB - PUSH - Orton is healthy and that's a good thing, yes, he's elevated his game some what. That being said, I've preached on this site over and over that he's still innacurate at times and makes bone headed throws. He is not "rising" to the occassion IMHO. If the Broncos are mathmatically eliminated from the playoffs, I'm kinda pushing for Tebow. I don't think it will stunt his growth that much if the Broncos play him with the understanding that his growth is what is important, not necessarily wins. However, this may in fact decrease Orton's value at the end of the year.

RB - PUSH - Moreno is still an unknown as of right now. The oline is what is really struggling. I'm inclined to think the RB situation might be better than we realize if we had decent run blocking.

WR - PUSH - Yah, I'm glad Marshall is gone and yah, I'm loving me some DT. Yes, Lloyd is playing fantastic (aside from the occassional easy drop) and yes, the other WR's look productive. All that being said, it's not translating to wins. End story here.

OL - WORSE - I'm really disappointed in the oline and I'm not sure if it's more of a coaching issue than a talent issue. Right now, it might be both. That being said, I don't like the oline coaching, IMHO, it looks like guys are unmotivated, confused and frustrated. Shame on coaches!.

TE - WORSE - The spread offense doesn't need a pass catching threat at TE. Sure, it's nice to have a pass catching TE but it's not essential. Right now, Quinn looks like Quap so McD has that going for him. The reality of the situation is the running game still sucks with these guys.

OFFENSIVE DEPTH - BETTER - Yah, ok I'll give McD some credit here. If the pieces can all come together than perhaps this offense will be more consistent.

ST's -BETTER- Eh, ok. The kicking game is still inconsistent.

DL - WORSE - I really thought this unit would be better. With Doom going down I knew sacks would be hard to come by but I thought the ability to stop the run would be better. However, it looks like I am wrong.

LB - BETTER - Get Doom back and combine him with a healthy Ayers and I think we have a good outside LBer combo. I'm still not completely sold on the interior guys. I'd love a young stud MLB with a nasty attitude. I wanted Spikes in this last draft but oh well.

S - PUSH - Move Champ to safety and I think this unit is better next year. Right now, I'm not so sure.

CB's - BETTER - McD whiffed on Phonz and scored on Cox. Squid looks like he might have some potential.

POSITION COACHING - WORSE - The oline coaching comes to mind here. Also, not sure about the dline coaching either.

PLAYCALLING - PUSH - McD can be very frustrating at times. Still, with no run game what can he do? .

TRADES - PUSH - McDaniels initially looks good in some trades and bad in other trades, but I guess you can't win them all. I defended the Phonz trade when it happened and he may still turn out to be a great CB, but in the end, it's trades like this that kill a team's ability to grow.

DRAFT AND FREE AGENCY - PUSH - The draft looks better, but it's still a little hard to tell if it was hella better than 2009. FA? Well, at least he's not as sucky as Shanny was.

I wanted Phonz to work out more than anyone at least Gronkowski is starting to work his way into the offense. I'll be looking forward to seeing if he can get more and more involved. He's already starting to become that guy whose good for a catch when you really need one.

broncosteven
11-02-2010, 08:00 PM
So, amidst the gloom and doom around here, I thought I'd take a look at where we were in each department after 1.5 seasons as opposed to at the end of the 08 season.

This year started out rough with the injuries, and then poor play and bad breaks helped the woes continue.

Still, I figured it was worth trying to cut through the emotion to see where we really were as a team. Like anything of this nature, this stuff is completely subjective. But, here's a quick rundown of how I see it.


QB - BETTER - This is pretty much a no-brainer on every level. I don't assume I have to explain this one.

RB - WORSE - Moreno has more talent than any feature back we had in 08, in my opinion. But, Shanahan's system made productive
players out of guys like Hillis, Young and Cellphone Bell. But, Moreno needs to be on the field more and when he is... our fat guys
have to push the other team's fat guys in such a way that actually creates an open space to utilize. I think this department could go
from worse to better in a big hurry if people get healthy and the rookies improve just a little.

WR - BETTER - Our #1 receiver is outperforming our prior #1 receiver in yards and TD's, and the top to bottom talent at WR is much better.
It's a different system, but the numbers and depth are improving.

OL - WORSE - Some of this is injuries. If Clady/Harris were healthy, this might look a little different. Two rookies in the interior don't help either, but
hopefully we're developing at least one of them to be a quality starter in the future. We need to do more work here.

TE - WORSE - I didn't mind losing Scheffler. He was hurt as much as healthy. But, Graham seems to have fallen off and we're not getting much
production at TE, receiving-wise. The counter-argument here might be that we are seeing more overall passing targets used, including the backs
so it's somewhat of a wash.

OFFENSIVE DEPTH - BETTER - We've not got an intriguing prospect at back-up QB and a couple of young receivers that I think we're all very
excited about seeing more of.

ST's -BETTER- This is very close, but do think overall we're covering kicks better and kicking more reliably than under the prior admin. The last two
games being notable exceptions, of course. We also have to get more going in the return game.

DL - PUSH - This is also very close and that pains me to say. I really liked some of the moves we made with Williams and some of the other
pick-ups. But thus far, they're not faring much better than the garbage the prior admin had out there. The big wild-card here is that in the 3-4 defense,
you're getting your pass-rush from the OLB's, which IS a major area of improvement for us. So, if you include the entire front 7, we're definitely better.

LB - BETTER - When totally healthy, 3 of our 4 LB's are between B- and A- players, imo. We have a major need at ILB still, but this group is
better overall.

S - BETTER - Yes, Dawkins is near the end, but we've got a little depth and when healthy, this group is clearly better than when McD took over
the team.

CB's - BETTER - Goodman is better than Bly (etc.) when healthy, and we've absolutely got more young role players and potential future starters
than we did at the end of 08.

POSITION COACHING - WORSE - Of course, none of us are at practice so we're all just guessing. But, we're seeing way too many silly ****-ups out there on game-day. Of course, there are exceptions. I think our QB/WR's are playing very well. But, we've made costly, stupid mistakes all season long and that has to change.

PLAYCALLING - PUSH - I'll probably get some argument here, but people have short memories. People b****ed incessantly about Shanahan's game-day calling, despite
him being one of the best, imo. I think McDaniels is calling things appropriately most of the time, and I don't mind that he's aggressive and even a gambler at times.
The lack of a running game is a talent/execution thing, not a play-calling issue. Still, I think it can and will improve.

TRADES - PUSH - McDaniels has had a home run, and a couple of definite ground-outs. (And got beaned by a pitch on the A. Smith situation.) Shanahan didn't make a ton of trades, but had some great ones and some stinkers.

DRAFT AND FREE AGENCY - PUSH - I think we're doing better in free agency overall, and I think the draft situation is very close. Shanahan finally pulled a few decent players out of the last couple of drafts, or this would definitely be a "BETTER," as well. I think the trend is leaning towards better, though. We've had some hits (and misses) in free agency and these past two drafts are looking good as far as yielding talent. Now, there is an argument to be made about WHAT KIND of talent we're pulling in. I think we'd all like to see more future starters for the front seven join Ayers from this upcoming draft.


How do you see it?

Offensive Depth - Worse, sure QB depth may be better (if they allow Tebow to throw we would know for sure) but we don't have an RB, TE, or FB that would start on anyother team - maybe Larsen would make a squad as a ST'er. Throw in the poor OL play you cannot say our O depth is better.

ST's - PUSH - they have given up the same poor returns that we have seen for years now. DT is decent, Royal could become special as a PR but we haven't seen it yet. I think Decker is a ST monster, he has made some nice tackles in the last 2 games.

LB's - PUSH - Our 2 best LB's have been here for years, Ayers got hurt when he started to play well who knows what we get back, Hunter plays hard and I like him but he should not be starting.

Playcalling - WORSE Team consistently starts SSSSSSSLLLLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWW . This allows bad teams to keep games winnable late and good teams to pound us then throw in a slow start vs Oakland which got out of hand real fast.
I am starting to see CB's playing Lloyd tighter on those sideline comebacks/timing plays where Orton throws to Lloyds backside. Oakland took one of those for a pick6 on Orton's 1st throw.
mCd has 5 base WR patterns they seem to run and run well they seem to do a lot based on where the D is lined up so it is not about # of plays like Shanny had but what the D decides not to cover. Hence the poor starts because mCd is waiting to see what they get from a D rather than attack.
Our Redzone woes have not gotten better, maybe worse than last year (I didn't look it up) we can run (by that I mean pass because we have no run game) up and down the field but cannot get the ball in the endzone. mCd is still fond of going for it on 4th and short too many times. Also factor in the piss poor clock management and things are bleak.


Trades - WORSE No way to sugar coat this. We could have used all that ammo from the Cutler and Marshall trades to beef up the DL and OL which would have paid off sooner than using a 1st on Tebow.

Draft - WORSE - there is no depth, if a starter goes down teams need the next guy to step up and take his place, play the next man on the depth chart. One of mCd's points about drafting this year was that he wanted to bring competition to all positions including QB, this after making a trade for Quinn. Maybe Tebow is that once a generation type player but we are not going to see it for years, he could lose the clubhouse if he starts Tebow over Orton the way Orton has been playing. There may not have been a pick at DL where Tebow was picked who could have made a difference this year but we had the ammo to get DT and still move up and grab either a DL or better C.




I still don't think Doom would have been able to contribute enough to make a difference in our record. He doesn't play OL or RB, When our D does make a stop the O usually goes 3 and out and still has redzone struggles and cannot convert the 4th and short plays mCd loves to gamble on.

Reality is likely somewhere between your take and others more critical but we won't know for a couple of years yet.

Maybe we see a dramatic turnaround and we end up 9-7 but I would have thought they would have responded to the Oakland debacle better than they started the game vs San Fran. If not for Lloyd this team could be even worse off.

Popps
11-02-2010, 08:01 PM
The injuries somewhat excuse the lack of pass rush and the problems in the secondary, but in no way, shape or form is it an excuse when it comes to the utter suckage that has been the defensive line. They are worse than last year despite being a lot more expensive. The defensive line regularly gets pushed around in both pass and run situations, that is a killer for a 3-4 defense, and I believe that is the main reason we switched to 4-3, simply because the 3 guys up front got outworked and outmuscled by 3 offensive linemen.

Yep, the DL isn't getting it done. I think we've got to take a hard look in the draft AND free agency this off-season.

_Oro_
11-02-2010, 08:10 PM
I still don't think Doom would have been able to contribute enough to make a difference in our record. He doesn't play OL or RB, When our D does make a stop the O usually goes 3 and out and still has redzone struggles and cannot convert the 4th and short plays mCd loves to gamble on.

Reality is likely somewhere between your take and others more critical but we won't know for a couple of years yet.

Maybe we see a dramatic turnaround and we end up 9-7 but I would have thought they would have responded to the Oakland debacle better than they started the game vs San Fran. If not for Lloyd this team could be even worse off.

That's a huge stretch. Three of our losses have been close games that could have gone either way. Just one timely Doom sack could easily turn the tide in those games.

broncosteven
11-02-2010, 08:15 PM
That's a huge stretch. Three of our losses have been close games that could have gone either way. Just one timely Doom sack could easily turn the tide in those games.

How many turned on a Doom sack last year in his career year? Maybe he is worth one win this year. Fact is this D is being gashed on the ground and Doom's thing is in the passing game, maybe he gets to Smith late in the game last week I will give him 1 game and again if the truth is somewhere in the middle then he gets 1.5 wins.

Popps
11-02-2010, 08:19 PM
How many turned on a Doom sack last year in his career year? Maybe he is worth one win this year. Fact is this D is being gashed on the ground and Doom's thing is in the passing game, maybe he gets to Smith late in the game last week I will give him 1 game and again if the truth is somewhere in the middle then he gets 1.5 wins.

I'll give him the Jville game, and maybe the Jets game.

The lack of a pass-rush absolutely destroyed us on that last drive. (The PI call being the worst example.)

Plus remember, at this point... we're talking about Doom AND Ayers. Our best pass-rusher and our second best pass-rushers and best at run-contain.



Two more wins and I'd certainly be a lot happier. I'm assuming everyone would.

That said, I think we need to acquire a premiere DL, in the Seymour mold.

WolfpackGuy
11-02-2010, 08:25 PM
Most teams who have a good and commited run game can neutralize Dumervil.

Like most pass rushers, he's at his best in obvious passing situations.

Something we hardly see because the team can rarely get a decent lead or consistently do a good job on the early downs.

gyldenlove
11-02-2010, 08:30 PM
Yep, the DL isn't getting it done. I think we've got to take a hard look in the draft AND free agency this off-season.

Honestly, unless a stud is available in FA, I think we have to draft DL and forget about FA. We need young DLs who can get playing time and get used to the speed of the game, they will be better for it. One of the nice things right now is that the defensive line can only play better, so we might as well get rookies and young guys in there so we can build a strong unit from the ground up.

gyldenlove
11-02-2010, 08:31 PM
Most teams who have a good and commited run game can neutralize Dumervil.

Like most pass rushers, he's at his best in obvious passing situations.

Something we hardly see because the team can rarely get a decent lead or consistently do a good job on the early downs.

That is true, I do think the presence of Ayers and Dumervil will make up for it, if we can build or develope a strong defensive line, along with Ayers that gives you 4 very solid big bodies up front who can stop the run and allow Dumervil to do what Freeney does, play the pass first and then use speed to chase the run.

broncosteven
11-02-2010, 08:37 PM
I'll give him the Jville game, and maybe the Jets game.

The lack of a pass-rush absolutely destroyed us on that last drive. (The PI call being the worst example.)

Plus remember, at this point... we're talking about Doom AND Ayers. Our best pass-rusher and our second best pass-rushers and best at run-contain.



Two more wins and I'd certainly be a lot happier. I'm assuming everyone would.

That said, I think we need to acquire a premiere DL, in the Seymour mold.

Finally we agree on something.

broncosteven
11-02-2010, 08:37 PM
Most teams who have a good and commited run game can neutralize Dumervil.

Like most pass rushers, he's at his best in obvious passing situations.

Something we hardly see because the team can rarely get a decent lead or consistently do a good job on the early downs.

Yep

broncosteven
11-02-2010, 08:39 PM
Honestly, unless a stud is available in FA, I think we have to draft DL and forget about FA. We need young DLs who can get playing time and get used to the speed of the game, they will be better for it. One of the nice things right now is that the defensive line can only play better, so we might as well get rookies and young guys in there so we can build a strong unit from the ground up.

I agree 100% we need to homegrow some DL.

TotallyScrewed
11-02-2010, 08:40 PM
QB - BETTER - I disagree. Both QB's have flashes and then play bone headed. Orton has looked better overall this year. Cutler of '08 had good stats too (if you minus half the INT's. I still say the Broncos are in for far worse treatment this year if they don't get the running game fired up.

RB - WORSE - Shanahan's system made productive
players out of guys like Hillis, Young and Bell. I agree with this statement. I think it was due to players buying into the system and position coaches. Also an uninjured Clady was a budding star.

WR - BETTER - As of today, Our #1 receiver is outperforming our prior #1 receiver in yards and TD's, and the top to bottom talent at WR is much better.
It's a sell-out passing system, but the numbers and depth are improving. (Marshall, Royal and Stokley had almost 3000 yds). I say it's about a push.

OL - WORSE - Some of this is injuries. If Clady/Harris were healthy, this might look a little different. 2008 = Clady (R), Hamilton, Weigmann, Kuper and Harris. They weren't anything to write about but they were better as a unit than what Denver has now.

TE - WORSE - I didn't mind losing Scheffler He was hurt as much as healthy (I think you're thinking of somebody else here (Nate Jackson?)...40 catches for 645 yards, 3 td isn't all that bad for a TE.). But, Graham seems to have fallen off and we're not getting much
production at TE, receiving-wise. The counter-argument here might be that we are seeing more overall passing targets used, including the backs
so it's somewhat of a wash. I think you're stretching the truth.

OFFENSIVE DEPTH - BETTER - We've not got an intriguing prospect at back-up QB and a couple of young receivers that I think we're all very
excited about seeing more of. In 2008 Denver had two upstarts at WR named Marshall and Royal that were way better than what we've seen in 2010...please.

ST's -BETTER- This is very close, but do think overall we're covering kicks better and kicking more reliably than under the prior admin. Prater has done really well this year. Kicking game scored a punt return yet?

DL - PUSH - This is also very close and that pains me to say. I really liked some of the moves we made with Williams and some of the other
pick-ups. But thus far, they're not faring much better than the garbage the prior admin had out there. The big wild-card here is that in the 3-4 defense,
you're getting your pass-rush from the OLB's, which IS a major area of improvement for us. So, if you include the entire front 7, we're definitely better. I agree.

LB - BETTER - When totally healthy, 3 of our 4 LB's are between B- and A- players. I agree.

S - BETTER - Yes, Dawkins is near the end, but we've got a little depth and when healthy, this group is clearly better than when McD took over
the team. I agree.

CB's - BETTER - Goodman is better than Bly (etc.) when healthy, and we've absolutely got more young role players and potential future starters
than we did at the end of 08. I disagree. Goodman is a fake. Unfortunately, Champ is slowing down. He was hurt most of 2008.

POSITION COACHING - WORSE - Of course, none of us are at practice so we're all just guessing. But, we're seeing way too many silly ****-ups out there on game-day. Of course, there are exceptions. I think our QB/WR's are playing very well. But, we've made costly, stupid mistakes all season long and that has to change but will it?

PLAYCALLING - PUSH - I'll probably get some argument here, but people have short memories. People b****ed incessantly about Shanahan's game-day calling, despite
him being one of the best, imo. I think McDaniels is calling things appropriately most of the time, and I don't mind that he's aggressive and even a gambler at times.
The lack of a running game is a talent/execution thing, not a play-calling issue. Still, I think it can and will improve.

Both Shanahan and McDaniels are stubborn and let that adversely affect the game. For offensive guru's, I'm not so much impressed. Thank goodness Orton is healthy this year!

TRADES - PUSH - McDaniels has had a home run, and a couple of definite looking strike-outs. Shanahan didn't make a ton of trades, but had some great ones and some stinkers. Both seem to do better with offense. I agree.

DRAFT AND FREE AGENCY - PUSH - I think we're doing better in free agency overall, and I think the draft situation is very close. Shanahan finally pulled a few decent players out of the last couple of drafts, or this would definitely be a "BETTER," as well. I think the trend is leaning towards better, though. We've had some hits (and misses) in free agency and these past two drafts are looking good as far as yielding talent. Now, there is an argument to be made about WHAT KIND of talent we're pulling in. I think we'd all like to see more future starters for the front seven join Ayers from this upcoming draft.

Both teams need a true GM.


That's how I see it.

The Broncos of 2008 were also injury pleagued.

_Oro_
11-02-2010, 08:45 PM
Most teams who have a good and commited run game can neutralize Dumervil.

Like most pass rushers, he's at his best in obvious passing situations.

Something we hardly see because the team can rarely get a decent lead or consistently do a good job on the early downs.

The thing is, we lost two games this year because of hail marys in obvious passing situations.

WolfpackGuy
11-02-2010, 08:52 PM
The thing is, we lost two games this year because of hail marys in obvious passing situations.

Those games are ****** over early if the offense shows up AT ALL, and if the DB's there to make a play could actually pick up a ball in flight.

strafen
11-02-2010, 11:53 PM
QB - PUSH - Orton is healthy and that's a good thing, yes, he's elevated his game some what. That being said, I've preached on this site over and over that he's still innacurate at times and makes bone headed throws. He is not "rising" to the occassion IMHO. If the Broncos are mathmatically eliminated from the playoffs, I'm kinda pushing for Tebow. I don't think it will stunt his growth that much if the Broncos play him with the understanding that his growth is what is important, not necessarily wins. However, this may in fact decrease Orton's value at the end of the year.

RB - PUSH - Moreno is still an unknown as of right now. The oline is what is really struggling. I'm inclined to think the RB situation might be better than we realize if we had decent run blocking.

WR - PUSH - Yah, I'm glad Marshall is gone and yah, I'm loving me some DT. Yes, Lloyd is playing fantastic (aside from the occassional easy drop) and yes, the other WR's look productive. All that being said, it's not translating to wins. End story here.

OL - WORSE - I'm really disappointed in the oline and I'm not sure if it's more of a coaching issue than a talent issue. Right now, it might be both. That being said, I don't like the oline coaching, IMHO, it looks like guys are unmotivated, confused and frustrated. Shame on coaches!.

TE - WORSE - The spread offense doesn't need a pass catching threat at TE. Sure, it's nice to have a pass catching TE but it's not essential. Right now, Quinn looks like Quap so McD has that going for him. The reality of the situation is the running game still sucks with these guys.

OFFENSIVE DEPTH - BETTER - Yah, ok I'll give McD some credit here. If the pieces can all come together than perhaps this offense will be more consistent.

ST's -BETTER- Eh, ok. The kicking game is still inconsistent.

DL - WORSE - I really thought this unit would be better. With Doom going down I knew sacks would be hard to come by but I thought the ability to stop the run would be better. However, it looks like I am wrong.

LB - BETTER - Get Doom back and combine him with a healthy Ayers and I think we have a good outside LBer combo. I'm still not completely sold on the interior guys. I'd love a young stud MLB with a nasty attitude. I wanted Spikes in this last draft but oh well.

S - PUSH - Move Champ to safety and I think this unit is better next year. Right now, I'm not so sure.

CB's - BETTER - McD whiffed on Phonz and scored on Cox. Squid looks like he might have some potential.

POSITION COACHING - WORSE - The oline coaching comes to mind here. Also, not sure about the dline coaching either.

PLAYCALLING - PUSH - McD can be very frustrating at times. Still, with no run game what can he do? .

TRADES - PUSH - McDaniels initially looks good in some trades and bad in other trades, but I guess you can't win them all. I defended the Phonz trade when it happened and he may still turn out to be a great CB, but in the end, it's trades like this that kill a team's ability to grow.

DRAFT AND FREE AGENCY - PUSH - The draft looks better, but it's still a little hard to tell if it was hella better than 2009. FA? Well, at least he's not as sucky as Shanny was.

In the eyes of a homer... Ha!

orangemonkey
11-03-2010, 05:20 AM
[QUOTE=Popps;2993644]So, amidst the gloom and doom around here, I thought I'd take a look at where we were in each department after 1.5 seasons as opposed to at the end of the 08 season.

This year started out rough with the injuries, and then poor play and bad breaks helped the woes continue.

Still, I figured it was worth trying to cut through the emotion to see where we really were as a team. Like anything of this nature, this stuff is completely subjective. But, here's a quick rundown of how I see it.


QB - BETTER - This is pretty much a no-brainer on every level. I don't assume I have to explain this one.


So 47% of the team is better, 27% is a push and 27% is worse? I’m not buying it.

Also – Did I miss the head coaching category? Go ahead and put a Much Worse down. If anything, this is the category that doesn’t require an explanation. But as Jhns frequently says, “McD doesn’t deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as Shanny.”

So here’s my take:

Head Coach – MUCH WORSE – See explanation above

QB – WORSE - Only in the irrational tent of love-hate (love for Orton, hate for Cutler) could you come up with a better grade here. Push maybe, but no way better. Starting with McDaniels’ philosophy of grading a QB – Wins, Red-zone and 3rd down efficiency, add the ability for a QB to step it up in the 4th Qtr, I’d say we are worse. Kyle hasn’t been good in all 4 of those phases of his game. But – damn - he has some great yardage stats this year.

RB - WORSE – I would take a healthy Torain or Hillis over Moreno any day of the week. I like Moreno but Torain and Hillis are more productive backs (so far) when healthy. Selvin Young could get the same production as Moreno behind our current line. ;-) Seriously and sadly, Moreno's problem is Josh McDaniels and company. They don't have a clue how to architect a good running game.

WR - WORSE - Missing a true #1 like Marshall to draw double-teams and free up other parts of the offense has hurt our redzone and 3rd down efficiency. Missing a good TE magnifies the problem. I like the upside in DT but our current WR’s aren’t getting it done where it counts: scoring.

OL – PUSH – Part injuries, part scheme. Shanny ran a much better scheme for this type of group.

TE - WORSE – No threat at this position. Sad really since we are usually strong at TE.

OFFENSIVE DEPTH - PUSH – Fine line on this one. Our back-up running backs are old and QB’s are unproven. We lost big-time playmakers in Marshall, Hillis and Scheffler but gained a solid veteran in Lloyd combined with solid young talent in DT, Decker. The QB position, however, is still a major question mark now and in the future.

ST's - BETTER- Better at kicking and returns.

DL - PUSH – Different but same production

LB - BETTER - Slightly

S – BETTER – Dawkins. Enough said.

CB's - BETTER – Strong youth movement. But not sure how we will replace Champ next year.

POSITION COACHING - WORSE – Experience. The hemorrhaging that took place here combined with a 1st time head coach was catastrophic.

PLAYCALLING - PUSH – Playcalling hasn’t been terrible but execution with this regime has.

TRADES - WORSE – Someone on here said it best: McDaniels needs to know that he can call 30 other teams to trade, not just the PaCheatriots. I know he only has 3 numbers on his speed dial, Bowlen, his wife and Bill, but give me a break.

DRAFT AND FREE AGENCY - PUSH – McD has made some of the biggest bone-head moves I've ever seen but Shanny had some doozies too.

My mix:
44% Worse, 31% Push, 25% Better. More in-line with the current state of the Denver Broncos.

errand
11-03-2010, 06:12 AM
My two cents worth....

[] We're 2-6, but had a break or two gone our way, we could just as easily be 5-3.

[] Josh McDaniels as an NFL head coach record after his first 24 games sits at 10-14. That isn't acceptable, but it is understandable given the injuries and inexperience. He's infused some youth into our line-up, and we still have one of the youngest rosters in the league...save for our secondary. Oh, BTW...Mike Shanahan's first 24 games as a head coach saw him sitting at 10-14 as well.....with much more talented rosters. So please, a little perspective.

[] I just as shocked that we're 2-6 as Cowboy fans are that they're 1-5 or what ever they are.


this team is too new and too snakebitten to give up on...but those of you who hate this team today can please feel free to root for any one of the other 31 teams

orangemonkey
11-03-2010, 06:29 AM
My two cents worth....

[] We're 2-6, but had a break or two gone our way, we could just as easily be 5-3.

[] Josh McDaniels as an NFL head coach record after his first 24 games sits at 10-14. That isn't acceptable, but it is understandable given the injuries and inexperience. He's infused some youth into our line-up, and we still have one of the youngest rosters in the league...save for our secondary. Oh, BTW...Mike Shanahan's first 24 games as a head coach saw him sitting at 10-14 as well.....with much more talented rosters. So please, a little perspective.

[] I just as shocked that we're 2-6 as Cowboy fans are that they're 1-5 or what ever they are.


this team is too new and too snakebitten to give up on...but those of you who hate this team today can please feel free to root for any one of the other 31 teams

- If I had a dime....seriously we had the worst loss at home against the Raiders and we lost to the 49ers. Sorry, but the game of inches argument hasn't held water since game 7 of last year. This team is just bad.

- 10-14 which is bad is less important than the way we are sliding as an organization.

- I'm not shocked, I saw the same deficiencies in coaching and personnel in game 1 of last year that I still see today.

- I'll never stop rooting for the Broncos but I sure as hell won't follow this regime blindly like others.

Rock Chalk
11-03-2010, 08:14 AM
Going on "fully healthy compliment of players".

QB: Better
RB: Push. Moreno is a better back, system far worse.
OLine: Worse. In power blocking, our tackles are worthless. Clady and Harris are not suited for it and will NEVER be as good as they were as rookies in this sytem. youngsters not sure on but not inspired either.
TE: Worse. No Pass catching TE and Graham now cant block. He has gotten destroyed several times this year.
WR: Way better. Instead of one superstar we have really 5 guys that can play the position really well. Lloyd is playing like a superstar, DT has loads of potential and Royal has returned to his rookie form. Gaff is solid if unspectacular.

DL: Push. Still **** out there.
LBs: Better. Dumervil and DJ are holdovers but Ayers is better than any other LB we had in 2008. hard to compare the others as tin 2007 we only used 3 LBs at a time. So Ayers > what we had in 2008 and Doom & DJ is the same.
Safety: Better. Even in age anything is better than those two twits we had in 2008. Our depth here is better than those starters.
CB: Better. Starters are a push. Champ is not quite as good as he was 2 years ago, Goodman is slightly better than Bly. Depth is where we are better.
STs - Coverage: Push.
STs Kicking: Push
STs returns: better.
Overall Depth: Slightly better. Some areas not as good, other areas better.
Coaching: Worse. Shanahan's talent was far inferior overall in 2008 and he got that team to 8-8.
Positional Coaching - Offense: The loss of Dennison and Turner has really hampered McD here. We knew Turner would go when Shanahan took another job, it was a given. Dennison we figured would go with Shanahan but went to Kubes instead. End result for us is the same. QB and WR coach is an improvement but the O-line and RB coach make the entire system fail.
Positional Coaching - Defense: No matter how bad this defense is depleted with injuries the coaching is better than what we had with Slowik and company. I dont care what any of you say, that was the worst defensive coachign staff in history.

Spider
11-03-2010, 08:21 AM
My two cents worth....

[] We're 2-6, but had a break or two gone our way, we could just as easily be 5-3.

[] Josh McDaniels as an NFL head coach record after his first 24 games sits at 10-14. That isn't acceptable, but it is understandable given the injuries and inexperience. He's infused some youth into our line-up, and we still have one of the youngest rosters in the league...save for our secondary. Oh, BTW...Mike Shanahan's first 24 games as a head coach saw him sitting at 10-14 as well.....with much more talented rosters. So please, a little perspective.

[] I just as shocked that we're 2-6 as Cowboy fans are that they're 1-5 or what ever they are.


this team is too new and too snakebitten to give up on...but those of you who hate this team today can please feel free to root for any one of the other 31 teams
good post , but dont hate the team , but McD thats another story ..... I dont fall for the snakebitten part , but ;D good post

baja
11-03-2010, 08:33 AM
Going on "fully healthy compliment of players".

QB: Better
RB: Push. Moreno is a better back, system far worse.
OLine: Worse. In power blocking, our tackles are worthless. Clady and Harris are not suited for it and will NEVER be as good as they were as rookies in this sytem. youngsters not sure on but not inspired either.
TE: Worse. No Pass catching TE and Graham now cant block. He has gotten destroyed several times this year.
WR: Way better. Instead of one superstar we have really 5 guys that can play the position really well. Lloyd is playing like a superstar, DT has loads of potential and Royal has returned to his rookie form. Gaff is solid if unspectacular.

DL: Push. Still **** out there.
LBs: Better. Dumervil and DJ are holdovers but Ayers is better than any other LB we had in 2008. hard to compare the others as tin 2007 we only used 3 LBs at a time. So Ayers > what we had in 2008 and Doom & DJ is the same.
Safety: Better. Even in age anything is better than those two twits we had in 2008. Our depth here is better than those starters.
CB: Better. Starters are a push. Champ is not quite as good as he was 2 years ago, Goodman is slightly better than Bly. Depth is where we are better.
STs - Coverage: Push.
STs Kicking: Push
STs returns: better.
Overall Depth: Slightly better. Some areas not as good, other areas better.
Coaching: Worse. Shanahan's talent was far inferior overall in 2008 and he got that team to 8-8.
Positional Coaching - Offense: The loss of Dennison and Turner has really hampered McD here. We knew Turner would go when Shanahan took another job, it was a given. Dennison we figured would go with Shanahan but went to Kubes instead. End result for us is the same. QB and WR coach is an improvement but the O-line and RB coach make the entire system fail.
Positional Coaching - Defense: No matter how bad this defense is depleted with injuries the coaching is better than what we had with Slowik and company. I dont care what any of you say, that was the worst defensive coachign staff in history.

Well now I don't have to write one of these because I agree with this one with one exception I think the ST's have improved in all three phases, not a lot but clear improvement.

missingnumber7
11-03-2010, 08:43 AM
I agree 100% we need to homegrow some DL.

100% agree with this statement. We have been trying to fix our DL through FA and trades and Browncos for longer than I care to remember, basically since Pryce left. And it still isn't good. Its about time we pick a hoss that is going to be the guy 2 or 3 years from now. It don't have to be the boy named Suh, but there are guys out there to grab. Success on D doesn't start in the secondary or LB's it starts up front and its about time to spend some draft picks there.

Popps
11-03-2010, 09:37 AM
100% agree with this statement. We have been trying to fix our DL through FA and trades and Browncos for longer than I care to remember, basically since Pryce left. And it still isn't good. Its about time we pick a hoss that is going to be the guy 2 or 3 years from now. It don't have to be the boy named Suh, but there are guys out there to grab. Success on D doesn't start in the secondary or LB's it starts up front and its about time to spend some draft picks there.

Yea, I forgave the front office for not going DL heavy because I liked our pass rush from the OLB's and I thought our FA moves were solid. Looks like we'll indeed have to do a little of both.

I also think just bringing in a premiere name for the OL, DL or both would be a solid idea.

broncosteven
11-03-2010, 10:02 AM
Yea, I forgave the front office for not going DL heavy because I liked our pass rush from the OLB's and I thought our FA moves were solid. Looks like we'll indeed have to do a little of both.

I also think just bringing in a premiere name for the OL, DL or both would be a solid idea.

Again I agree with you here, they have no real dead cap space, Champs contract could be sticky and if he decides to move on then it is imperative that they draft DL and consider a trade/FA for a top flight Down Lineman.

They should also have funds to bring in premier G and or C this year also, maybe a RT also...

strafen
11-03-2010, 10:10 AM
Again I agree with you here, they have no real dead cap space, Champs contract could be sticky and if he decides to move on then it is imperative that they draft DL and consider a trade/FA for a top flight Down Lineman.

They should also have funds to bring in premier G and or C this year also, maybe a RT also...
We've had the chance to get Mike Iupati and Maurkice Pouncey.
Clearly the best guard and center available in the draft last year.
We ended up settle for two that were not NFL ready, though good prospects...

Mountain Bronco
11-03-2010, 11:33 AM
Come on, you ranked 3 of the 4 defensive areas better and one a push??? Look at the results and look at the stats. Seriously, take off the Orange tinted glasses.

bendog
11-03-2010, 11:36 AM
We're getting better, dammit. really. dammit. We're not last in pts allowed. We're not LAST!

Mountain Bronco
11-03-2010, 12:29 PM
I know the D wasn't great in 2008, but it isn't any better in 2010. The offense really isn't much better either, so I don't get any of these rankings.

QB - Push - Cutler and Orton both had decievingly good statistical years that hid their shortcomings
RB - Worse - self explanitory I would think - we can't run the ball to save our lives.
TE - Penalties and droped passes is what I see in 2010 versus a pretty good year in 2008
WR - Push at the top end and better overall
OL - Far worse. At least that Oline could run block and was decent in pass protection. This line is putrid at run blocking and is only decent at best in pass protection

Defense - worse on all levels - I am sorry, the team that is out there sucks on D. Injuries are a reason, but not an excuse and I am ranking the team as a whole hear and the D sucks. You don't let the 49ers or Raiders treat you like that and even pretend to have a competent halfway talented D.

Coaching - Push - Shanny is an idiot, look at his time in DC

Draft/GM - Push - I don't think Josh is doing that bad of a job, but it is something he has to learn. Again, Shanny is an idiot look at his time in DC, alienated the Defensive Star, traded for a bum QB that he can't trust over Rex in the 2 minute drill, then throws the QB under the bus and brings in JaFatass 286 pounder for a tryout. Hillarious.

jhns
11-03-2010, 12:38 PM
Again, Shanny is an idiot look at his time in DC, alienated the Defensive Star, traded for a bum QB that he can't trust over Rex in the 2 minute drill, then throws the QB under the bus and brings in JaFatass 286 pounder for a tryout. Hillarious.

Yeah, he is doing a horrible job. Washington fans must be pissed that he has already improved the team so much. I know I wouldn't want our record to improve over the previous years. It shows the coach is in over his head.

gyldenlove
11-03-2010, 12:42 PM
Come on, you ranked 3 of the 4 defensive areas better and one a push??? Look at the results and look at the stats. Seriously, take off the Orange tinted glasses.

Considering the defense we fielded in 2008 was one of the worst 5 defenses of the decade for the entire league, it shouldn't be surprising that there is improvement.

Do you really think the unit of Winborn, DJ Williams and Nate Webster measures up to DJ Williams, Robert Ayers, Elvis Dumervil?

Do you think Marlon Mccree and Marquand Manual are as good as Brian Dawkins, Darcel Mcbath and Renaldo Hill?

Do you think Bly, Bailey and Foxworth are as good as Bailey, Goodman and Cox? Even if you do, then CB becomes a push.

LB and S are definitely improved.

Rock Chalk
11-03-2010, 12:44 PM
Come on, you ranked 3 of the 4 defensive areas better and one a push??? Look at the results and look at the stats. Seriously, take off the Orange tinted glasses.

He is comparing to Shanny's last season. Take off your hate tinted glasses.

gyldenlove
11-03-2010, 12:48 PM
I know the D wasn't great in 2008, but it isn't any better in 2010. The offense really isn't much better either, so I don't get any of these rankings.

QB - Push - Cutler and Orton both had decievingly good statistical years that hid their shortcomings
RB - Worse - self explanitory I would think - we can't run the ball to save our lives.
TE - Penalties and droped passes is what I see in 2010 versus a pretty good year in 2008
WR - Push at the top end and better overall
OL - Far worse. At least that Oline could run block and was decent in pass protection. This line is putrid at run blocking and is only decent at best in pass protection

Defense - worse on all levels - I am sorry, the team that is out there sucks on D. Injuries are a reason, but not an excuse and I am ranking the team as a whole hear and the D sucks. You don't let the 49ers or Raiders treat you like that and even pretend to have a competent halfway talented D.

Coaching - Push - Shanny is an idiot, look at his time in DC

Draft/GM - Push - I don't think Josh is doing that bad of a job, but it is something he has to learn. Again, Shanny is an idiot look at his time in DC, alienated the Defensive Star, traded for a bum QB that he can't trust over Rex in the 2 minute drill, then throws the QB under the bus and brings in JaFatass 286 pounder for a tryout. Hillarious.

You didn't watch Broncos football in 2008 did you?

2010: 359 yards per game
2008: 375 yards per game

2010: 27.9 points per game
2008: 28 points per game

2010: 1.1 turnover per game
2008: 0.8 turnover per game

That includes our best pass rusher missing the entire season, our second best pass rusher missing half the season or more, all 3 top cornerbacks missing games and 2 of our top 3 safeties missing games.

Do you still think the defense has gotten worse at all levels?

Popps
11-03-2010, 01:22 PM
You didn't watch Broncos football in 2008 did you?

2010: 359 yards per game
2008: 375 yards per game

2010: 27.9 points per game
2008: 28 points per game

2010: 1.1 turnover per game
2008: 0.8 turnover per game

That includes our best pass rusher missing the entire season, our second best pass rusher missing half the season or more, all 3 top cornerbacks missing games and 2 of our top 3 safeties missing games.

Do you still think the defense has gotten worse at all levels?


Again, something like half of that starting defense in 08 couldn't find work in the NFL again.

Say what you want about our current group, but they'd all be signed by a team the day they were released, if that happened.

I think our problems now have everything to do with injuries and possibly coaching. Of course, we also need more talent, but that's almost always the case.

If this defense was healthy and being coached correctly, this season would be a different story, imo.

jhns
11-03-2010, 01:46 PM
You didn't watch Broncos football in 2008 did you?

2010: 359 yards per game
2008: 375 yards per game

2010: 27.9 points per game
2008: 28 points per game

2010: 1.1 turnover per game
2008: 0.8 turnover per game

That includes our best pass rusher missing the entire season, our second best pass rusher missing half the season or more, all 3 top cornerbacks missing games and 2 of our top 3 safeties missing games.

Do you still think the defense has gotten worse at all levels?

It is funny that you talk about others not watching Broncos football and then talk about injuries being an excuse. They still haven't matched the number of injuries that we had in 08 on defense. Why is this only an excuse for this years team? In 08, we played games without a single starting LB. We had a DE go down before the season and never return. Champ got injured. We had multiple safety injuries.

Injuries aren't an excuse for either team when comparing them. They both had/have injury problems. The defense may not have gotten worse but it sure didn't get better. There is no way to spin this. The Raiders just set franchise records for their offense on this current defense. The 2010 Raiders just set franchise records on this defense. Go ahead and spin that...

Popps
11-03-2010, 01:52 PM
Again I agree with you here, they have no real dead cap space, Champs contract could be sticky and if he decides to move on then it is imperative that they draft DL and consider a trade/FA for a top flight Down Lineman.

They should also have funds to bring in premier G and or C this year also, maybe a RT also...

I really think Champ stays. I just can't even envision the front office not locking him up in some way. They locked up Doom, and I expect they' deal with Champ in time. The labor situation just must be spooking them at this point.

I haven't even looked at the FA list, but if anyone like Seymour is out there... we need to grab them and draft some younger guys to develop.

Popps
11-03-2010, 01:54 PM
Here's an early look. Don't know how accurate this is...

2011 NFL Free Agent Defensive Linemen
By: Roshan Bhagat

Top Defensive Ends:

Ray Edwards, MIN - Edwards made a name for himself with a 3-sack game against Dallas in the Divisional Round, but that was simply an exclamation point of a terrific season. Is his production a product of having 3 Pro Bowlers playing next to him? Edwards was tendered with a 1st round tag this year and it doesn’t seem teams are willing to take that risk quite yet. If he repeats his performance, or improves upon it, next year will be much different. The Vikings will have to pay a steep price to keep him.

Richard Seymour, OAK – Though Seymour still hasn’t signed his franchise tag, he and the Raiders are working on a contract extension. It’s very likely that Seymour will remain in Oakland for at least another short, multi-year contract given how much Oakland paid to acquire him.

Mathias Kiwanuka, NYG – The Giants love having a deep, talented defensive line, so it would be odd to see them let Kiwanuka go. Even though he notched just 3 sacks last season while starting 6 games, Kiwanuka’s flexibility as a pass rusher from end and tackle allow the Giants to get creative in getting after the passer with just a defensive line.

Tamba Hali, KC – It took some time for Hali to make the conversion to outside linebacker, but after making the successful transition, it seems that Tamba Hali is due for another contract in Kansas City. He’s still a long reach from being an elite player, but he’s consistent with still some upside.

Marcus Spears, DAL – Spears had a mildly disappointing season last year and was outplayed by backups at times. It should come as no surprise that the Cowboys reportedly tried to move him in the offseason. If the same trend continues where one of their backups truly emerges, the Cowboys may have few problems in allowing Marcus Spears to walk.

Shaun Ellis, NYJ – The Jets have far too many key free agents to make him a priority, but losing Ellis would just make the Jets’ weakest position, even weaker. Ellis is still productive from the 5-technique with a challenging blend of size and speed for offensive tackles to handle. His request for a long-term extension was rejected by the Jets, but it’s something they could potentially address next offseason depending on how much they’re forced to spend on their other key free agents.

Other Notable Free Agents:

Quantcast

Trevor Pryce, BAL
Chris Kelsay, BUF
Charles Johnson, CAR
Mark Anderson, CHI
Matt Roth, CLE
Jason Hatcher, DAL
Stephen Bowen, DAL
Cliff Avril, DET
Reggie Hayward, JAC
Brian Robison, MIN
Derrick Burgess, NE
Victor Abiamiri, PHI
Ryon Bingham, SD
Jacques Cesaire, SD
Victor Adeyanju, STL
Stylez White, TB
Dave Ball, TEN
Jacob Ford, TEN

Top Defensive Tackles:

Haloti Ngata, BAL – One of the league’s best franchise cornerstones (an annual article that will again be published later this summer) will not go anywhere. Coach Harbaugh has said he has “every intention” of making Ngata “a Raven forever.” As good as Ngata has been on the field, I’m equally impressed that he hasn’t pushed for a contract renegotiation after signing his rookie contract, where he’s been vastly underpaid. Ngata has earned every penny he will receive on the forthcoming lucrative contract.

Brandon Mebane, SEA – At only 6’1, Mebane has the natural leverage and quickness to give interior linemen fits. Though his numbers were merely average, his impact on the field was anything but that. Mebane has the work ethic and the tools to be a dominant defensive tackle for next decade. The Seahawks will try everything in their power to ensure that each of those years will be in Seattle.

Aubrayo Franklin, SF – After putting together a nice season at nose tackle, the 49ers placed the franchise tag on Franklin who has yet to report to OTA’s. Based on the Crabtree holdout a year ago, it seems the 49ers have the will to endure holdouts. If the Niners are firm on their position and want to see one more high-level year from Franklin, he’ll have to wait one more season before receiving some stability.

Johnny Jolly, GB – Jolly’s ongoing legal issues make him an interesting player in the league. He had an outstanding season at defensive end a year ago. Though he had only a single sack, he also recorded 10 pass deflection and one incredibly athletic interception. If the legal issue could take care of itself, Jolly will have the opportunity to sign a well-sized contract, either in Green Bay or elsewhere, depending on how the rest of the defensive line performs.

Cullen Jenkins, GB – Jolly’s counterpart on the right side will also be entering his contract year. Jenkins is a much better pass rusher than Jolly, though not quite as consistent. Prior to his injury in 2008, Jenkins was working on a Pro Bowl season (through 4 games). With a full offseason in the weight room and on the practice field, Jenkins may be able to turn it up a notch to earn another contract extension in Green Bay.

Pat Williams, MIN – I very much doubt that Williams will play anywhere but Minnesota. He’s still an effective run stopper who is winding down his playing days. He threatened to retire early this offseason before deciding to return. If he wants to play, the Vikings will surely be happy to have him back.

Other Notable Free Agents: Bryan Robinson, ARI
Gabe Watson, ARI
Alan Branch, ARI
John McCargo, BUF
Nick Hayden, CAR
Tank Tyler, CAR
Robaire Smith, CLE
Ronald Fields, DEN
Eric Foster, IND
Atiyyah Ellison, JAC
Ron Edwards, KC
Paul Soliai, MIA
Fred Evans, MIN
Barry Cofield, NYG
Jay Alford, NYG
Chris Hoke, PIT
Travis Johnson, SD
Ray McDonald, SF

Old Dude
11-03-2010, 04:02 PM
The O-Line is a disaster.

The D front seven would be better if we had Ayers & Doom, but we don't, so it's a mess too.

Everything else is secondary. (no pun intended.)

TheReverend
11-03-2010, 04:18 PM
Do you think Bly, Bailey and Foxworth are as good as Bailey, Goodman and Cox? Even if you do, then CB becomes a push.

I do. But Fox was shipped out early 2008 so it's a moot point.

TheReverend
11-03-2010, 04:20 PM
Johnny Jolly, GB – Jolly’s ongoing legal issues make him an interesting player in the league. He had an outstanding season at defensive end a year ago. Though he had only a single sack, he also recorded 10 pass deflection and one incredibly athletic interception. If the legal issue could take care of itself, Jolly will have the opportunity to sign a well-sized contract, either in Green Bay or elsewhere, depending on how the rest of the defensive line performs.

Cullen Jenkins, GB – Jolly’s counterpart on the right side will also be entering his contract year. Jenkins is a much better pass rusher than Jolly, though not quite as consistent. Prior to his injury in 2008, Jenkins was working on a Pro Bowl season (through 4 games). With a full offseason in the weight room and on the practice field, Jenkins may be able to turn it up a notch to earn another contract extension in Green Bay.

I mentioned these two a month ago. GB will be hard pressed to keep both and either one would be a pretty strong addition to our defense.

gyldenlove
11-03-2010, 04:20 PM
Here's an early look. Don't know how accurate this is...

2011 NFL Free Agent Defensive Linemen
By: Roshan Bhagat

Top Defensive Ends:

Ray Edwards, MIN - Edwards made a name for himself with a 3-sack game against Dallas in the Divisional Round, but that was simply an exclamation point of a terrific season. Is his production a product of having 3 Pro Bowlers playing next to him? Edwards was tendered with a 1st round tag this year and it doesn’t seem teams are willing to take that risk quite yet. If he repeats his performance, or improves upon it, next year will be much different. The Vikings will have to pay a steep price to keep him.

Richard Seymour, OAK – Though Seymour still hasn’t signed his franchise tag, he and the Raiders are working on a contract extension. It’s very likely that Seymour will remain in Oakland for at least another short, multi-year contract given how much Oakland paid to acquire him.

Mathias Kiwanuka, NYG – The Giants love having a deep, talented defensive line, so it would be odd to see them let Kiwanuka go. Even though he notched just 3 sacks last season while starting 6 games, Kiwanuka’s flexibility as a pass rusher from end and tackle allow the Giants to get creative in getting after the passer with just a defensive line.

Tamba Hali, KC – It took some time for Hali to make the conversion to outside linebacker, but after making the successful transition, it seems that Tamba Hali is due for another contract in Kansas City. He’s still a long reach from being an elite player, but he’s consistent with still some upside.

Marcus Spears, DAL – Spears had a mildly disappointing season last year and was outplayed by backups at times. It should come as no surprise that the Cowboys reportedly tried to move him in the offseason. If the same trend continues where one of their backups truly emerges, the Cowboys may have few problems in allowing Marcus Spears to walk.

Shaun Ellis, NYJ – The Jets have far too many key free agents to make him a priority, but losing Ellis would just make the Jets’ weakest position, even weaker. Ellis is still productive from the 5-technique with a challenging blend of size and speed for offensive tackles to handle. His request for a long-term extension was rejected by the Jets, but it’s something they could potentially address next offseason depending on how much they’re forced to spend on their other key free agents.

Other Notable Free Agents:

Quantcast

Trevor Pryce, BAL
Chris Kelsay, BUF
Charles Johnson, CAR
Mark Anderson, CHI
Matt Roth, CLE
Jason Hatcher, DAL
Stephen Bowen, DAL
Cliff Avril, DET
Reggie Hayward, JAC
Brian Robison, MIN
Derrick Burgess, NE
Victor Abiamiri, PHI
Ryon Bingham, SD
Jacques Cesaire, SD
Victor Adeyanju, STL
Stylez White, TB
Dave Ball, TEN
Jacob Ford, TEN

Top Defensive Tackles:

Haloti Ngata, BAL – One of the league’s best franchise cornerstones (an annual article that will again be published later this summer) will not go anywhere. Coach Harbaugh has said he has “every intention” of making Ngata “a Raven forever.” As good as Ngata has been on the field, I’m equally impressed that he hasn’t pushed for a contract renegotiation after signing his rookie contract, where he’s been vastly underpaid. Ngata has earned every penny he will receive on the forthcoming lucrative contract.

Brandon Mebane, SEA – At only 6’1, Mebane has the natural leverage and quickness to give interior linemen fits. Though his numbers were merely average, his impact on the field was anything but that. Mebane has the work ethic and the tools to be a dominant defensive tackle for next decade. The Seahawks will try everything in their power to ensure that each of those years will be in Seattle.

Aubrayo Franklin, SF – After putting together a nice season at nose tackle, the 49ers placed the franchise tag on Franklin who has yet to report to OTA’s. Based on the Crabtree holdout a year ago, it seems the 49ers have the will to endure holdouts. If the Niners are firm on their position and want to see one more high-level year from Franklin, he’ll have to wait one more season before receiving some stability.

Johnny Jolly, GB – Jolly’s ongoing legal issues make him an interesting player in the league. He had an outstanding season at defensive end a year ago. Though he had only a single sack, he also recorded 10 pass deflection and one incredibly athletic interception. If the legal issue could take care of itself, Jolly will have the opportunity to sign a well-sized contract, either in Green Bay or elsewhere, depending on how the rest of the defensive line performs.

Cullen Jenkins, GB – Jolly’s counterpart on the right side will also be entering his contract year. Jenkins is a much better pass rusher than Jolly, though not quite as consistent. Prior to his injury in 2008, Jenkins was working on a Pro Bowl season (through 4 games). With a full offseason in the weight room and on the practice field, Jenkins may be able to turn it up a notch to earn another contract extension in Green Bay.

Pat Williams, MIN – I very much doubt that Williams will play anywhere but Minnesota. He’s still an effective run stopper who is winding down his playing days. He threatened to retire early this offseason before deciding to return. If he wants to play, the Vikings will surely be happy to have him back.

Other Notable Free Agents: Bryan Robinson, ARI
Gabe Watson, ARI
Alan Branch, ARI
John McCargo, BUF
Nick Hayden, CAR
Tank Tyler, CAR
Robaire Smith, CLE
Ronald Fields, DEN
Eric Foster, IND
Atiyyah Ellison, JAC
Ron Edwards, KC
Paul Soliai, MIA
Fred Evans, MIN
Barry Cofield, NYG
Jay Alford, NYG
Chris Hoke, PIT
Travis Johnson, SD
Ray McDonald, SF

Shaun Ellis is the only player of those who will likely be available I am interested in. I think he would be a solid complement to a draft pick or two in rotation with a few of the guys we have who are not entirely useless.

TheProfessor
11-03-2010, 04:56 PM
I think some people need to start preparing themselves for the inevitable...

We are in ANOTHER 4 game losing streak. We just lost by 45 to our division rival only to turn around and lose by 8 to a poorly coached 1-6 team. I'm not going to say it's impossible to turn around, but the kid has dug himself one hell of a deep hole... Again.

He'll most likely finish out the season. Hell, he might get 2011 also (whatever football is played in 2011), but from where i'm standing this doesn't look like it's going to end well.

gyldenlove
11-03-2010, 05:31 PM
I mentioned these two a month ago. GB will be hard pressed to keep both and either one would be a pretty strong addition to our defense.

I still don't get why you are talking about Jolly, he is suspended indefinitely, sat out all this season and will most likely be serving some time during the next offseason. Jenkins I get, I don't like him much, but I get what you see in him, but I don't get why we would want this crack dealing SOB.

The minimum sentence is 2 years, he will be a convicted fellon with a drug background and because the trial has been delayed for so long there is no end in sight, he could be serving time through all the 2011 season if there is one.

Merlin
11-03-2010, 06:35 PM
Going on "fully healthy compliment of players".

QB: Better
RB: Push. Moreno is a better back, system far worse.
OLine: Worse. In power blocking, our tackles are worthless. Clady and Harris are not suited for it and will NEVER be as good as they were as rookies in this sytem. youngsters not sure on but not inspired either.
TE: Worse. No Pass catching TE and Graham now cant block. He has gotten destroyed several times this year.
WR: Way better. Instead of one superstar we have really 5 guys that can play the position really well. Lloyd is playing like a superstar, DT has loads of potential and Royal has returned to his rookie form. Gaff is solid if unspectacular.

DL: Push. Still **** out there.
LBs: Better. Dumervil and DJ are holdovers but Ayers is better than any other LB we had in 2008. hard to compare the others as tin 2007 we only used 3 LBs at a time. So Ayers > what we had in 2008 and Doom & DJ is the same.
Safety: Better. Even in age anything is better than those two twits we had in 2008. Our depth here is better than those starters.
CB: Better. Starters are a push. Champ is not quite as good as he was 2 years ago, Goodman is slightly better than Bly. Depth is where we are better.
STs - Coverage: Push.
STs Kicking: Push
STs returns: better.
Overall Depth: Slightly better. Some areas not as good, other areas better.
Coaching: Worse. Shanahan's talent was far inferior overall in 2008 and he got that team to 8-8.
Positional Coaching - Offense: The loss of Dennison and Turner has really hampered McD here. We knew Turner would go when Shanahan took another job, it was a given. Dennison we figured would go with Shanahan but went to Kubes instead. End result for us is the same. QB and WR coach is an improvement but the O-line and RB coach make the entire system fail.
Positional Coaching - Defense: No matter how bad this defense is depleted with injuries the coaching is better than what we had with Slowik and company. I dont care what any of you say, that was the worst defensive coachign staff in history.
I agree with most of this but for the QB (I think a properly coached Cutler is far better than a properly coached Orton, and as it is, a poorly coached Cutler generally does better under pressure than a well coached Orton), and the D coaches. As bad as Slowik was, his D was decimated by injuries and populated by lesser players by your own measures, yet his stats are not much worse. If fact, this D is getting is putting out some impressive losses of late, so one could feasibly argue Slowik was better...only that makes me gag, so I'll say a push.

baja
11-03-2010, 06:37 PM
I think some people need to start preparing themselves for the inevitable...

We are in ANOTHER 4 game losing streak. We just lost by 45 to our division rival only to turn around and lose by 8 to a poorly coached 1-6 team. I'm not going to say it's impossible to turn around, but the kid has dug himself one hell of a deep hole... Again.

He'll most likely finish out the season. Hell, he might get 2011 also (whatever football is played in 2011), but from where i'm standing this doesn't look like it's going to end well.

Where are you standing?

TheProfessor
11-04-2010, 06:57 PM
Where are you standing?

I want the team to win- period. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I strongly believe winning cures all in the NFL.

I don't care how they do it, I don't care who they do it with.

As for my opinion of the current staff, I think they are significantly overmatched. I like McDaniels, he seems like a nice/good hearted kid. But that's the problem, he is just a kid. Acquiring the necessary skill-set to run an NFL franchise by the age of 34 is an 1 in 1 million chance. I know Josh did some great things for a few seasons in NE, but great coordinator does not automaticaly equal great headcoach. To everybody reading this, trust me, I would like nothing more than to watch this kid put together a big, nasty 3-4, with tebow running some kind of pro-style spread option, while McDaniels runs around screaming about winning a Mother ****ing game. I'd be as happy as a fan could get.

Unfortunately we took that 1 in 1 million chance, and right now, it doesn't look like it is going to pay off.

I beleve he has earned the right to finish out the season and see if he can earn another year. But for that to happen things in Dove Valley must do a 180 from where they are right now.

I'll give him that chance but I'm not confident.

If we finish 5-11 or worse and have a top 5 pick to work with, we need to hand the reigns over to the next guy and let them start the process of "picking their guys".

FWIW, I hate to even think of that, but 59-14 iis just an unacceptable level of futility.

2KBack
11-04-2010, 07:13 PM
I want the team to win- period. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I strongly believe winning cures all in the NFL.

I don't care how they do it, I don't care who they do it with.

As for my opinion of the current staff, I think they are significantly overmatched. I like McDaniels, he seems like a nice/good hearted kid. But that's the problem, he is just a kid. Acquiring the necessary skill-set to run an NFL franchise by the age of 34 is an 1 in 1 million chance. I know Josh did some great things for a few seasons in NE, but great coordinator does not automaticaly equal great headcoach. To everybody reading this, trust me, I would like nothing more than to watch this kid put together a big, nasty 3-4, with tebow running some kind of pro-style spread option, while McDaniels runs around screaming about winning a Mother ****ing game. I'd be as happy as a fan could get.

Unfortunately we took that 1 in 1 million chance, and right now, it doesn't look like it is going to pay off.

I beleve he has earned the right to finish out the season and see if he can earn another year. But for that to happen things in Dove Valley must do a 180 from where they are right now.

I'll give him that chance but I'm not confident.

If we finish 5-11 or worse and have a top 5 pick to work with, we need to hand the reigns over to the next guy and let them start the process of "picking their guys".

FWIW, I hate to even think of that, but 59-14 iis just an unacceptable level of futility.

Not that I want to argue with you much, because you presented your opinion in a mature and well thought out manner, but why do you believe that a coach of McD's age has such a small chance of success? This was an argument rehashed time and again when he was hired. In the end there have been many successful head coaches that started in their mid thirties. I'm sure there is some learning to be done, but why wouldn't we want to be the beneficiaries of his time spent learning? We already have 2 years invested in his progress, I'd hate to rid ourselves of him just to have him take those lessons to a new team and be successful, while we sit rebuilding with yet another new coach.

TheProfessor
11-04-2010, 07:30 PM
Not that I want to argue with you much, because you presented your opinion in a mature and well thought out manner, but why do you believe that a coach of McD's age has such a small chance of success? This was an argument rehashed time and again when he was hired. In the end there have been many successful head coaches that started in their mid thirties. I'm sure there is some learning to be done, but why wouldn't we want to be the beneficiaries of his time spent learning? We already have 2 years invested in his progress, I'd hate to rid ourselves of him just to have him take those lessons to a new team and be successful, while we sit rebuilding with yet another new coach.

Again this is just my opinion, but I don't think a lot of learning goes on during a public butt-kicking. Been there, done that. IMO, you learn the most after you have gone through it and had a chance to take everything in. Right now josh looks like someone hanging on for dear life. My fear is, that like shanahan and belicheck Josh will need at least one more stop before becoming a successful HC.

As for the successful coaches at this age; of course their are success stories, but just like any coach at any age their are far more failures. The problem is the younger you are the less experience you have to draw from. Now I understand he was basically born and bred to be a football coach, then again so was David Shula. Unfortunately, right now everything I see tells me he is drowning. Now, he might have the skill set to right the ship, but like I said before... I'm not confident in that.

strafen
11-04-2010, 07:48 PM
Not that I want to argue with you much, because you presented your opinion in a mature and well thought out manner, but why do you believe that a coach of McD's age has such a small chance of success? This was an argument rehashed time and again when he was hired. In the end there have been many successful head coaches that started in their mid thirties. I'm sure there is some learning to be done, but why wouldn't we want to be the beneficiaries of his time spent learning? We already have 2 years invested in his progress, I'd hate to rid ourselves of him just to have him take those lessons to a new team and be successful, while we sit rebuilding with yet another new coach.I think McDaniels will be coaching next year regardless of the outcome this season.

As for McDaniels' age, I think the key word here is maturity.
While I believe McDaniels' age got nothing to do with his football acumen, I still believe some of his displayed behavior has shown his age in more than one occasion.

Also, in personnel issues...
I'm still not clear why Nolan, Dennison and Bobby Turner decided to leave the team. It really doesn't matter the circumstances; is the fact that they left the team, as to not wanting to stick around.

But that's just my opinion, your mileage may vary...

gyldenlove
11-04-2010, 08:32 PM
Not that I want to argue with you much, because you presented your opinion in a mature and well thought out manner, but why do you believe that a coach of McD's age has such a small chance of success? This was an argument rehashed time and again when he was hired. In the end there have been many successful head coaches that started in their mid thirties. I'm sure there is some learning to be done, but why wouldn't we want to be the beneficiaries of his time spent learning? We already have 2 years invested in his progress, I'd hate to rid ourselves of him just to have him take those lessons to a new team and be successful, while we sit rebuilding with yet another new coach.

We are not much worse than we were a year ago, last year we won some games on last minute heroics and a few lucky breaks, this year we have been on the other end of those bounces and it is unfortunate. Take away the Stokley catch in cinci, Marshalls run after catch against the Cowboys and the overtime winner against New England and we were a 5-11 team this year, on the other hand this year, if Hill doesn't commit the DPI against the Jets, Dawkins intercepts that desperation pass against the 49ers and if Buckhalter doesn't fumble in the 4th quarter against Jacksonville we are a 5-3 team instead of 2-6.

The problem with that is that we are not improving as a team, we still have to rely on those small bounces and that is going to some times bite you on the behind. Right now I would say 4-4 the rest of the way is good enough, anything less than that I would have to really question the direction we are heading and potentially start preparing for a new way of doing things. Ultimately I think it may come down to who is to blame, if it is talent level then the front office with Xanders may have to pay the price, if it is coaching then Mcdaniels and his staff will have to be changed.

Right now it looks to me like we are lacking a good DC, a good offensive assistant who can work the run game and a special teams coordinator who is actually qualified. I would like to see Mcdaniels make those changes, the defense was better under Nolan and I think a new DC would help, the run game was much better under Dennison/Turner and we need someone there and the special teams have been crap for a long time, so new blood is needed. Bowlen should put pressure on Mcdaniels to make those changes.

strafen
11-04-2010, 09:35 PM
We are not much worse than we were a year ago, last year we won some games on last minute heroics and a few lucky breaks, this year we have been on the other end of those bounces and it is unfortunate. Take away the Stokley catch in cinci, Marshalls run after catch against the Cowboys and the overtime winner against New England and we were a 5-11 team this year, on the other hand this year, if Hill doesn't commit the DPI against the Jets, Dawkins intercepts that desperation pass against the 49ers and if Buckhalter doesn't fumble in the 4th quarter against Jacksonville we are a 5-3 team instead of 2-6.

The problem with that is that we are not improving as a team, we still have to rely on those small bounces and that is going to some times bite you on the behind. Right now I would say 4-4 the rest of the way is good enough, anything less than that I would have to really question the direction we are heading and potentially start preparing for a new way of doing things. Ultimately I think it may come down to who is to blame, if it is talent level then the front office with Xanders may have to pay the price, if it is coaching then Mcdaniels and his staff will have to be changed.

Right now it looks to me like we are lacking a good DC, a good offensive assistant who can work the run game and a special teams coordinator who is actually qualified. I would like to see Mcdaniels make those changes, the defense was better under Nolan and I think a new DC would help, the run game was much better under Dennison/Turner and we need someone there and the special teams have been crap for a long time, so new blood is needed. Bowlen should put pressure on Mcdaniels to make those changes.I agree with you there in the last paragraph.
You can't understate the impact of Rick Dennison, Bobby Turner had on our offense.
Losing Nolan was also a big blow. Those guys were experienced enough to help establish a "rebuilding" team.
I don't see where we upgraded on those 3 coaching positions...

2KBack
11-04-2010, 09:44 PM
Again this is just my opinion, but I don't think a lot of learning goes on during a public butt-kicking. Been there, done that. IMO, you learn the most after you have gone through it and had a chance to take everything in. Right now josh looks like someone hanging on for dear life. My fear is, that like shanahan and belicheck Josh will need at least one more stop before becoming a successful HC.

As for the successful coaches at this age; of course their are success stories, but just like any coach at any age their are far more failures. The problem is the younger you are the less experience you have to draw from. Now I understand he was basically born and bred to be a football coach, then again so was David Shula. Unfortunately, right now everything I see tells me he is drowning. Now, he might have the skill set to right the ship, but like I said before... I'm not confident in that.

I've always looked at situations like Belly in Cleveland and Shanny in Oakland as them not getting the time to work things out for themselves. It's so ADD now, teams have to go from worst to first in a season or two. I think the best way to have a long term winning franchise is to home grow it,even the coach as best you can. Guys like Don Shula, Dan Reeves, Tom Landry, Jeff Fisher, etc...all started in their mid 30's some with mild success, some with rough starts. They were allowed to grow into the position though, and their teams grew with them. I think McD can certainly coach in this league, and I'd really hate to dump him so soon.

I get your frustration though, I felt it watching our recent embarrassment. I'm judging him on a game by game basis right now. I honestly don't think we are as bad as it seems.

TonyR
11-05-2010, 08:36 AM
When the Broncos return from their bye week, the condition of Kyle Orton's right shoulder will be of some concern.

After taking a huge, third-quarter hit from 49ers linebacker Manny Lawson in London, it's unlikely Orton would have been able to function anywhere near 100 percent if the Broncos had to play this weekend.

Orton has taken a lot of punishment recently. He has been sacked 16 times in the last five games, three of which he has been sacked at least four times. The Broncos are 1-4 in those games, in which Orton has two interceptions — one returned for a touchdown — and two lost fumbles.

That's because the Broncos have to expose him to punishment since their running game is the NFL's worst.

The Titans used a variety of stunts and twists to free their front four and sacked Orton six times. All six came when Orton was in the shotgun in a three-wide look.

Any quarterback is going to take some hits if the five linemen make a mistake, and the pattern has repeated.

The Ravens' only sack came with Orton in the shotgun in a three-wide look, and they pounded Orton throughout the game. Two of the Raiders' four sacks came with Orton in the shotgun and three-wide, while three of the 49ers' four sacks came with Orton in the shotgun in the same formation.

The rub for the Broncos is the three-wide receiver look is the only formation out of which they've been able to consistently score in those five games.

They have scored 10 offensive touchdowns in that span, eight of which have been from three-wide formations.

The Titans exposed the Broncos' troubles by creating a lot of movement up front in the pass rush, and others have followed. On Lawson's big hit, he came late, looping into the middle, and he wasn't touched before he plowed into Orton.

Orton's aching right shoulder is testament to one of the biggest items on the Broncos' to-do list heading into the second half of the season.

Read more: Analysis: Orton is taking a pounding as opponents exploit weak link - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16525955#ixzz14Q1QQtAZ

gyldenlove
11-05-2010, 09:18 AM
When the Broncos return from their bye week, the condition of Kyle Orton's right shoulder will be of some concern.

After taking a huge, third-quarter hit from 49ers linebacker Manny Lawson in London, it's unlikely Orton would have been able to function anywhere near 100 percent if the Broncos had to play this weekend.

Orton has taken a lot of punishment recently. He has been sacked 16 times in the last five games, three of which he has been sacked at least four times. The Broncos are 1-4 in those games, in which Orton has two interceptions — one returned for a touchdown — and two lost fumbles.

That's because the Broncos have to expose him to punishment since their running game is the NFL's worst.

The Titans used a variety of stunts and twists to free their front four and sacked Orton six times. All six came when Orton was in the shotgun in a three-wide look.

Any quarterback is going to take some hits if the five linemen make a mistake, and the pattern has repeated.

The Ravens' only sack came with Orton in the shotgun in a three-wide look, and they pounded Orton throughout the game. Two of the Raiders' four sacks came with Orton in the shotgun and three-wide, while three of the 49ers' four sacks came with Orton in the shotgun in the same formation.

The rub for the Broncos is the three-wide receiver look is the only formation out of which they've been able to consistently score in those five games.

They have scored 10 offensive touchdowns in that span, eight of which have been from three-wide formations.

The Titans exposed the Broncos' troubles by creating a lot of movement up front in the pass rush, and others have followed. On Lawson's big hit, he came late, looping into the middle, and he wasn't touched before he plowed into Orton.

Orton's aching right shoulder is testament to one of the biggest items on the Broncos' to-do list heading into the second half of the season.

Read more: Analysis: Orton is taking a pounding as opponents exploit weak link - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16525955#ixzz14Q1QQtAZ

Unfortunately that is a coaching issue, the offensive line is not being prepared for lateral motion and late blitzes and ever since the Titans killed us with it every team has done the same thing.

Especially in the shotgun having the blocking scheme worked out is very important since the defensive players know where the QB is going to be, when the QB takes the ball under center the defense doesn't know if it will be a short, medium or deep drop or a rollout so they can't be rush too wide in case of a short drop and they can't just force it up the middle in case of a rollout or deep drop.

It also seems like lately defenses have been more succesful in forcing our WRs to the outside which means it takes longer for them to get open and forces Orton to hold the ball longer. This should be helped by having Royal back 100%, but ultimately a TE who can catch the ball would be really helpful as well to create short passes over the middle to take the heat off those outside routes.

Popps
11-05-2010, 10:04 AM
[I]When the Broncos return from their bye week, the condition of Kyle Orton's right shoulder will be of some concern.
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16525955#ixzz14Q1QQtAZ

Kyle seems like a tough guy. I hope that shoulder isn't worse than the team is letting on.

Popps
11-05-2010, 10:06 AM
It also seems like lately defenses have been more succesful in forcing our WRs to the outside which means it takes longer for them to get open and forces Orton to hold the ball longer. This should be helped by having Royal back 100%, but ultimately a TE who can catch the ball would be really helpful as well to create short passes over the middle to take the heat off those outside routes.

Yea, this past game was the first game where I found myself wondering why we didn't use the middle of the field more. Then again, the middle of the field is where SF's strength lies, so that could have something to do with it.

TheReverend
11-05-2010, 11:00 AM
I still don't get why you are talking about Jolly, he is suspended indefinitely, sat out all this season and will most likely be serving some time during the next offseason. Jenkins I get, I don't like him much, but I get what you see in him, but I don't get why we would want this crack dealing SOB.

The minimum sentence is 2 years, he will be a convicted fellon with a drug background and because the trial has been delayed for so long there is no end in sight, he could be serving time through all the 2011 season if there is one.

I assumed he'd walk since he's a pro football player like everyone does.

baja
11-05-2010, 11:01 AM
I assumed he'd walk since he's a pro football player like everyone does.

Don't ever criticize someone else's context again.