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baja
11-02-2010, 02:43 AM
LONDON If Josh McDaniels were running for office in Colorado today, he couldn't get elected dog catcher, cat chaser or even rat pursuer.

There is one vote he certainly won't get.

The dreaded vote of confidence.

The bosses of the Broncos' head coach owner Pat Bowlen and COO Joe Ellis are not talking in flowery phrases about McDaniels' job security. In fact, the two are not talking at all publicly.

Both were witnesses here to the Broncos' fourth consecutive defeat this one to arguably the NFL's second-worst team and the one the week before was arguably the worst loss at home in team history.

Neither stepped up on the speaker's stand at Hyde Park on Monday morning and misquoted Shakespeare: "Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown, and the body that wears the hoodie."

Instead, Bowlen stood quietly on the sideline at the end of the loss Sunday night and did not talk to the media afterward. He has medical issues, and is maintaining a much lower profile (read: no profile at all) this season. He last gave an interview with The Post's Mike Klis at the Pro Bowl.

Ellis, who is running the Broncos' daily business operations (thus, the title chief operating officer), has chosen, somewhat reluctantly, not to address the McDaniels Matter on the record.

But it is known that Bowlen and Ellis continue to support their second-year coach (who has a four-year contract) despite his approval rating with Broncos loyalists dropping to its lowest level yet. Lower, it can be suggested, than at least one man who is running for a major political office in Colorado.

McD has not been popular almost from the day of his hiring, Jan. 12, 2009. When hired he was considered by many too young, too inexperienced, too brash and too, too New England Patriotish. He and quarterback Jay Cutler had a "misunderstanding," and Cutler ended up gone. Then, there was a dismantling of Mike Shana- han's staff and offensive system.

A 6-0 start in McDaniels' first season gave the coach his highest trust factor. A 2-8 finish with losses at home to division teams San Diego, Oakland and Kansas City, and no playoff berth destroyed that feel-better relationship with the faithful fans, the cynical media and the casual followers.

McDaniels got rid of Brandon Marshall, Tony Scheffler and Peyton Hillis, among others, and two remaining longtime assistants from the previous regime, running backs coach Bobby Turner and offensive line coach Rick Dennison, left. Some of the Broncos' most serious problems this season the running game, the offensive line and the lack of receiving production at tight end are directly attributable to changes McDaniels made.

His selection of Tim Tebow in the first round of this year's draft became a polarizing issue. Trading for defensive back Alphonso Smith (acquired for a No. 1 pick last year), then giving up on him, combined with a lack of improvement from last year's other top choices (especially Knowshon Moreno and Richard Quinn) and a stream of injuries have contributed to the rise of the fans' anger.

Bottom line, a 4-14 record from bye week 2009 to bye week 2010 has been the most serious cause of McDaniels' fall from grace with the sea of orange and blue.

McDaniels is about as unpopular as King John was in England 800 years ago. But there will be no Broncos Magna Carta.

SUBMIT YOUR QUESTION

Post sports columnist Woody Paige fields your questions. Look for Woody's Mailbag on Thursdays.

Bowlen and Ellis have the only votes that count and they will not fire McDaniels now, nor at the end of this season and not before the conclusion of the 2011 season . . . unless.

Bowlen and Ellis hired McDaniels, and do not wish to be embarrassed by admitting they made a mistake. The team still owes Shanahan half his annual $7 million salary for this season and next. The Broncos' double-headed leaders never will pay three head coaches at the same time.

And B&E, and their advisers, still sincerely believe in McDaniels. They feel he has improved as an off- field manager over last year. They believe he picked superior players in the draft this year, utilized the salary cap funds (and free-agent expenditures) more wisely than Shanahan and has upgraded the overall franchise despite the poor on-field results. And they think, as McDaniels does, this season can be turned around and next season will be fruitful.

In spite of the hue, and the cry, of the masses, McDaniels will not be overthrown or axed like a dreadful English king, unless the commoners stop coming. And that won't happen.

But, as McDaniels departed the United Kingdom on Monday morning, he wore the crown uneasy.

Good thing for McD Coloradans can't cast their vote for coach today.

Woody Paige: 303-954-1095 or wpaige@denverpost.com

baja
11-02-2010, 02:55 AM
Instead, Bowlen stood quietly on the sideline at the end of the loss Sunday night and did not talk to the media afterward. He has medical issues, and is maintaining a much lower profile (read: no profile at all) this season. He last gave an interview with The Post's Mike Klis at the Pro Bowl.

Let's make fun of Pat after that we can hide an Alzheimer's cheat sheet so he can't find his way home.

baja
11-02-2010, 02:57 AM
And B&E, and their advisers, still sincerely believe in McDaniels. They feel he has improved as an off- field manager over last year. They believe he picked superior players in the draft this year, utilized the salary cap funds (and free-agent expenditures) more wisely than Shanahan and has upgraded the overall franchise — despite the poor on-field results. And they think, as McDaniels does, this season can be turned around — and next season will be fruitful.

Clearly they did not consult rev., jesterhole, go_broncos or jhns about this.

baja
11-02-2010, 03:06 AM
And B&E, and their advisers, still sincerely believe in McDaniels. They feel he has improved as an off- field manager over last year. They believe he picked superior players in the draft this year, utilized the salary cap funds (and free-agent expenditures) more wisely than Shanahan and has upgraded the overall franchise — despite the poor on-field results. And they think, as McDaniels does, this season can be turned around — and next season will be fruitful.

What the hell do they know compared to the astute football minds here. You'd think they were around Dove Valley every day of something...

...and what's up with the players showing solidarity for Mctryant.

Rausch 2.0
11-02-2010, 03:24 AM
But it is known that Bowlen and Ellis continue to support their second-year coach (who has a four-year contract) despite his approval rating with Broncos loyalists dropping to its lowest level yet.

...

http://www.thecoast.ca/images/blogimages/2010/03/29/1269881537-clapping-gif.gif

baja
11-02-2010, 03:27 AM
Funny I don't see any mullets in that crowd.

Rausch 2.0
11-02-2010, 03:33 AM
Funny I don't see any mullets in that crowd.

I tried.

I can't afford the gas a ****ing 15 year old Camaro demands but I went for the mullet.

Once the hair grew beyond the collar I got the the big thumbs down from the higher ups at work.
:gripe:

baja
11-02-2010, 03:35 AM
I tried.

I can't afford the gas a ****ing 15 year old Camaro demands but I went for the mullet.

Once the hair grew beyond the collar I got the the big thumbs down from the higher ups at work.
:gripe:

Commie baastards

Rausch 2.0
11-02-2010, 03:41 AM
Commie baastards

Some people just don't ****ing get what football is all about...

baja
11-02-2010, 03:46 AM
Some people just don't ****ing get what football is all about...

I think we should tell them, "Missouri love it of leave it"

Rausch 2.0
11-02-2010, 04:08 AM
I think we should tell them, "Missouri love it of leave it"

Preach it to a mullet that didn't major in English...

The Joker
11-02-2010, 04:15 AM
I'd keep McDaniels for next year at least, give him a chance to have a shot with a team that isn't severely compromised by injuries before the start of the season.

I think there's a good coach in him there somewhere, so I'd rather we didn't just give up on him even if this season has gone horribly.

We need to be a good team in 2011 or he's gone though, no two ways about it.

Rausch 2.0
11-02-2010, 04:20 AM
I'd keep McDaniels for next year at least, give him a chance to have a shot with a team that isn't severely compromised by injuries before the start of the season.

I think there's a good coach in him there somewhere, so I'd rather we didn't just give up on him even if this season has gone horribly.

If there's anything a KC fan knows it's when you have a $#itty QB and a $#itty HC.

You have a $#itty HC.

Deal with this now...

Atwater His Ass
11-02-2010, 04:40 AM
I don't believe Mcd has what it takes in either attitude or know-how to turn this around. He's obviously in over his head with no life line out. I hope Bowlen cuts bait after this season and finds someone who can embody what Bronco football is all about.

Rausch 2.0
11-02-2010, 04:47 AM
He's obviously in over his head with no life line out.

This.

Haley's stupid is counterbalanced by Pioli.

Pimp-coat just gave the keys to McFuggenwhadIgeddadrive and let him ruin the family bidness...

go_broncos
11-02-2010, 04:51 AM
Mcd should be given a chance till the end of this season.
If we continue losing games, Bowlen should fire him.
If he shows some improvement, then he should be given one more year.
Bowlen should first hire a experienced GM.

Also, we should start winning games against AFC West.
It seems that we play well against AFC East teams.
Mcd should stop thinking that Denver is in AFC East.

Rausch 2.0
11-02-2010, 05:03 AM
Bowlen should first hire a experienced GM.
.

Let's start here.

Yes, agreed.

Fire the HC and hire a legit GM.

This team needs oversight...

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-02-2010, 06:29 AM
I don't believe Mcd has what it takes in either attitude or know-how to turn this around. He's obviously in over his head with no life line out. I hope Bowlen cuts bait after this season and finds someone who can embody what Bronco football is all about.

And then, when that guy isn't winning games after dismantling the program and putting his own guys in place, after two years, we can fire him. Because he's not winning games.

Then, when the guy replaces him, he'll get two years to change the system again, and if it ain't workin', we'll show him the door.

Two years after that, when that coach can't get any wins on the board because he has all new players in place, he can be dismissed, and we'll have another reason for optimism and another new head coach.

Hooray for the perpetual optimism that comes with new coaches. Hooray for sub-.500 football. Hooray for instant gratification with no long-term result.

I get what you're saying, but if you get into a cycle like the one I described above, we won't be winning games for a good decade. Sounds great, doesn't it?

As for the GM bit, I agree with that. But McDaniels should get another year.

Pseudofool
11-02-2010, 07:08 AM
Guys, sometimes the proof isn't in the pudding. No matter what happens this season, I think McD will coach winning Bronco teams in the future--the process is simply taking longer than I and many believed/hoped.

tsiguy96
11-02-2010, 07:11 AM
And then, when that guy isn't winning games after dismantling the program and putting his own guys in place, after two years, we can fire him. Because he's not winning games.

Then, when the guy replaces him, he'll get two years to change the system again, and if it ain't workin', we'll show him the door.

Two years after that, when that coach can't get any wins on the board because he has all new players in place, he can be dismissed, and we'll have another reason for optimism and another new head coach.

Hooray for the perpetual optimism that comes with new coaches. Hooray for sub-.500 football. Hooray for instant gratification with no long-term result.

I get what you're saying, but if you get into a cycle like the one I described above, we won't be winning games for a good decade. Sounds great, doesn't it?

As for the GM bit, I agree with that. But McDaniels should get another year.

as far as being a GM, mcdaniels actually did pretty damn good in year 2. look at the draft, would ANYONE replace demaryius thomas wiht any other pick at this point? tebow is controversial but considering 80% of you want him to start for whatever reason, i think most can agree his ceiling is ridiculous.

Jesterhole
11-02-2010, 07:17 AM
Clearly they did not consult rev., jesterhole, go_broncos or jhns about this.

They actually did. I got outvoted 2-1....assholes...

Jesterhole
11-02-2010, 07:24 AM
I think it's clear that McDaniels staying has a lot to do with money and the front office wanting to avoid looking stupid. I do think that McDaniels has the ability to be a good head coach some day. He isn't there yet, on a few levels, and I'm tired of my team being his learn-as-you-go experience. I think he dismantled a young good core group that needed improvement in a few areas and has assembled something less impressive, less talented, and less exciting.

The biggest thing is, with Shanahan, I almost never went into a game thinking we didn't have a chance. He was just too good of a coach for that. It's just the opposite with Josh.

Sassy
11-02-2010, 07:27 AM
Guys, sometimes the proof isn't in the pudding. No matter what happens this season, I think McD will coach winning Bronco teams in the future--the process is simply taking longer than I and many believed/hoped.

So how long in the NFL do you get to prove yourself as head Coach? Seriously...It hasn't even been a season and a half and with the injuries the Broncos have had it can't be easy to put a winning team on the field.

barryr
11-02-2010, 07:28 AM
McDaniels will get another year unless the team just quits playing the rest of the season. There is still this idiot perception by some that McDaniels inherited a great team that was one player away from a championship and he just totally screwed that up. There are people seriously wishing they still had that bonehead Cutler, pick waiting to happen, on this team and he somehow was going to lead this team to playoffs and championships. If the Bears even make the playoffs, it looks like it will be because of sound defense and special teams and not because of such wonderful QB play. Brandon Marshall has 1 TD so far this year. Wow.

jhns
11-02-2010, 07:35 AM
Clearly they did not consult rev., jesterhole, go_broncos or jhns about this.

Clearly they didn't use their brains either. He upgraded the franchise? What makes that an accurate statement? The 2-6 record? The losing streak longer than any we had under Shanahan? Letting the Raiders set franchise records on us?

Sorry if my not agreeing is offensive to you baja. I like to live in reality though. I can't help but use my brain when thinking...

tsiguy96
11-02-2010, 07:36 AM
McDaniels will get another year unless the team just quits playing the rest of the season. There is still this idiot perception by some that McDaniels inherited a great team that was one player away from a championship and he just totally screwed that up. There are people seriously wishing they still had that bonehead Cutler, pick waiting to happen, on this team and he somehow was going to lead this team to playoffs and championships. If the Bears even make the playoffs, it looks like it will be because of sound defense and special teams and not because of such wonderful QB play. Brandon Marshall has 1 TD so far this year. Wow.

i dont think anyone misses marshall now that weve seen demaryius thomas (that screen was unbelievable). his speed for someone htat big is scary, CJ like.

cutler, you should see the excuses for his picks in chicago. never have i heard "those 4 picks werent his fault" anywhere else about any other QB.

shanahan was a damn good coach whos players played better than they were, but it was never going to win a SB, and he needed time away to realize that from the outside.

Goobzilla
11-02-2010, 07:37 AM
as far as being a GM, mcdaniels actually did pretty damn good in year 2. look at the draft, would ANYONE replace demaryius thomas wiht any other pick at this point?

Dez Bryant

Rabb
11-02-2010, 07:48 AM
Dez Bryant

I wouldn't

I think DT is a better all around receiver and Dez will eventually implode

tsiguy96
11-02-2010, 07:49 AM
Dez Bryant

no possible way. dez bryant has had a good year no question, but DT has showed ability that you dont see in WR often.

bloodsunday
11-02-2010, 07:49 AM
You can rationalize any draft pick anyway you want. But I have a serious philosophical issue with how this team is being run and I thought we would fix it under McDaniels.

He's now had 4 #1 picks in 2 years:
RB, LB, QB, WR, CB (if you inlclude the Alphonso Smith pick)

That's 3 offensive skill position players when this team has HUGE holes along the front 7 on defense and the offensive line. I'll say this again, teams that win consistently in this league are built from the line of scrimmage out. The guys in the trenches make the other guys look good AND they fill special teams (in the case of LB) and they are more likely to get injured. Meanwhile the Steelers are taking guys like Zigi Hood, Pouncey, Woodley, Timmons...

long beach bronco
11-02-2010, 07:51 AM
The broncos will go 5-11 or 6-10 to end the season. The very next day on "black monday" several head coaches will be fired including Mcdaniels. He will be a good coach one day, but not here. This was just a stepping stone for him to see things of what not to do when being a head coach. Unfortunately, the bronco fans had to suffer through this. He'll get it right the next time. Memo to Josh: Stop trying to be Bill and just be Josh and you'll go a long way.

Rabb
11-02-2010, 07:53 AM
And just to add to my previous comment, and at the risk of overreacting, I think Thomas has Megatron potential by far...he's actually faster than Johnson I believe with the same skill set.

Ray Finkle
11-02-2010, 07:56 AM
You can rationalize any draft pick anyway you want. But I have a serious philosophical issue with how this team is being run and I thought we would fix it under McDaniels.

He's now had 4 #1 picks in 2 years:
RB, LB, QB, WR, CB (if you inlclude the Alphonso Smith pick)

That's 3 offensive skill position players when this team has HUGE holes along the front 7 on defense and the offensive line. I'll say this again, teams that win consistently in this league are built from the line of scrimmage out. The guys in the trenches make the other guys look good AND they fill special teams (in the case of LB) and they are more likely to get injured. Meanwhile the Steelers are taking guys like Zigi Hood, Pouncey, Woodley, Timmons...

You do not draft solely on need, that is when you end up with Nick Eason's of the world. If there are 2 available players when you pick, you take the best player available. Hood was a late round pick and has been plugged into a system that has been in place for 20 years. Pouncey wasn't available, Woodley and Timmons were drafted when McD was still with the Pats...

Goobzilla
11-02-2010, 07:59 AM
I wouldn't

I think DT is a better all around receiver and Dez will eventually implode

We'll see. I don't think Dez Bryant is the evil monster some make him out to be. I still would have taken him over DT, Dez is a great reciever and an electrifying return man.

Goobzilla
11-02-2010, 08:02 AM
The broncos will go 5-11 or 6-10 to end the season. The very next day on "black monday" several head coaches will be fired including Mcdaniels. He will be a good coach one day, but not here. This was just a stepping stone for him to see things of what not to do when being a head coach. Unfortunately, the bronco fans had to suffer through this. He'll get it right the next time. Memo to Josh: Stop trying to be Bill and just be Josh and you'll go a long way.

There's a lot of parallels to be drawn between McD's time here and Shanny's stint with the Raiders. I just hope we give Josh all the money he's owed :~ohyah!:

bloodsunday
11-02-2010, 08:12 AM
You do not draft solely on need, that is when you end up with Nick Eason's of the world. If there are 2 available players when you pick, you take the best player available. Hood was a late round pick and has been plugged into a system that has been in place for 20 years. Pouncey wasn't available, Woodley and Timmons were drafted when McD was still with the Pats...

Yes I know that Woodley and Timmons were drafted before McD got here. I'm just pointing out a pattern that the Denver Broncos (as an entire organization) have yet to pick up on. McD has regrettably done largely the same things in the draft (so far) that Shanahan used to do.

I understand all those arguments. But I would argue the Broncos are drafting for "need" and not just the best player on the board. Are you going to tell me that Tim Tebow, Knowshown Moreno, and Demarius Thomas were the "best player on the board" when we drafted?

First of all, best player on board is a matter of perception (see the Dez Bryant Demarius Thomas debate in this very thread). Secondly, each of those picks I mentioned was drafted as a "need" pick, Tebow and Thomas in particular because we panicked in the face of public ridicule after trading away Cutler and Marshall. Moreno because all our backs got hurt the previous year and McD didn't like what he saw when he got here. We already had/have capable starters in those positions.

To further cement my Steelers strategy:
1) If the guy you want isn't going to be available, move up and get him. We've wasted half a dozen picks moving up in the draft to get day 2 fodder, how about using them to get guys that are difference makers and at positions of need. We used 3 picks to move up and grab Tebow. We couldn't have used a couple of those to go get guys like Pouncey, McClain, etc...?

2) Don't be afraid to take a guy that's not the best on the board but fits your system. Zigi Hood. Or how about when New England took an OT no one had heard of from Fresno State? 12 months after the draft is over, the only thing people talk about is your W/L record. Why be so worried about the perception of taking "best player available"?

By the way, Nick Eason is having a decent NFL career with... the Steelers!

Meck77
11-02-2010, 08:18 AM
I hope that Mr. Bowlen can live out a long healthy life. He's helped build my city to what it is today. Yeah our team is down right now but where is the compassion for the man who has continually put the pieces in place for so many years and brought our "cow town" a couple world championships?

vancejohnson82
11-02-2010, 08:26 AM
I think it's clear that McDaniels staying has a lot to do with money and the front office wanting to avoid looking stupid. I do think that McDaniels has the ability to be a good head coach some day. He isn't there yet, on a few levels, and I'm tired of my team being his learn-as-you-go experience. I think he dismantled a young good core group that needed improvement in a few areas and has assembled something less impressive, less talented, and less exciting.

The biggest thing is, with Shanahan, I almost never went into a game thinking we didn't have a chance. He was just too good of a coach for that. It's just the opposite with Josh.

When Shanahan took that 2007 team into San Diego on Christmas Eve I didnt think they had a shot

Ambiguous
11-02-2010, 08:30 AM
as far as being a GM, mcdaniels actually did pretty damn good in year 2. look at the draft, would ANYONE replace demaryius thomas wiht any other pick at this point? tebow is controversial but considering 80% of you want him to start for whatever reason, i think most can agree his ceiling is ridiculous.

Umm, most want him to start because at this point the season is a wash and frankly it can't get much worse than losing by 45 points to the Raiders at home. People just want to see something different.

Ray Finkle
11-02-2010, 08:43 AM
Yes I know that Woodley and Timmons were drafted before McD got here. I'm just pointing out a pattern that the Denver Broncos (as an entire organization) have yet to pick up on. McD has regrettably done largely the same things in the draft (so far) that Shanahan used to do.

I understand all those arguments. But I would argue the Broncos are drafting for "need" and not just the best player on the board. Are you going to tell me that Tim Tebow, Knowshown Moreno, and Demarius Thomas were the "best player on the board" when we drafted?

First of all, best player on board is a matter of perception (see the Dez Bryant Demarius Thomas debate in this very thread). Secondly, each of those picks I mentioned was drafted as a "need" pick, Tebow and Thomas in particular because we panicked in the face of public ridicule after trading away Cutler and Marshall. Moreno because all our backs got hurt the previous year and McD didn't like what he saw when he got here. We already had/have capable starters in those positions.

To further cement my Steelers strategy:
1) If the guy you want isn't going to be available, move up and get him. We've wasted half a dozen picks moving up in the draft to get day 2 fodder, how about using them to get guys that are difference makers and at positions of need. We used 3 picks to move up and grab Tebow. We couldn't have used a couple of those to go get guys like Pouncey, McClain, etc...?

2) Don't be afraid to take a guy that's not the best on the board but fits your system. Zigi Hood. Or how about when New England took an OT no one had heard of from Fresno State? 12 months after the draft is over, the only thing people talk about is your W/L record. Why be so worried about the perception of taking "best player available"?

By the way, Nick Eason is having a decent NFL career with... the Steelers!

one it is easier to ID the player you need when the system has been in place for decades. Eason bounced around for years before being a part time starter.

McClain was drafted before Denver had a chance. I am sorry but moving up to draft a center in the first is not a wise thing. How many stellar centers in the past 10 years were drafted in the first (besides Mangold)?

How do you know that after his first year, Walton won't be a good center for the next 8 years?

Rulon Velvet Jones
11-02-2010, 08:49 AM
I think McDaniels deserves at least another year, but with a more experienced/big brother GM looming over him and making the big decisions. I think he can still be a very good HC but needs more time to truly figure out all the moving parts and responsibilities that come with the position.

TheReverend
11-02-2010, 09:12 AM
You do not draft solely on need, that is when you end up with Nick Eason's of the world. If there are 2 available players when you pick, you take the best player available. Hood was a late round pick and has been plugged into a system that has been in place for 20 years. Pouncey wasn't available, Woodley and Timmons were drafted when McD was still with the Pats...

The first round isn't generally considered a "late round", fyi.

TheReverend
11-02-2010, 09:14 AM
On the topic of McD's job security.

Bowlen fired Wade after a 16-16 record in two seasons.

McDaniels would have to go 6-2 from here on out just to MATCH the production Wade got fired with.

Ray Finkle
11-02-2010, 09:24 AM
The first round isn't generally considered a "late round", fyi.

late first round is what I meant....don't you have some Cox to fondle? :D

Gort
11-02-2010, 09:24 AM
The biggest thing is, with Shanahan, I almost never went into a game thinking we didn't have a chance. He was just too good of a coach for that. It's just the opposite with Josh.

then you missed a decade's worth of games against INDY where we only won when they rested their starters.

Ray Finkle
11-02-2010, 09:25 AM
On the topic of McD's job security.

Bowlen fired Wade after a 16-16 record in two seasons.

McDaniels would have to go 6-2 from here on out just to MATCH the production Wade got fired with.

Wade was fired because Shanahan was ready.....he was always a seat warmer.

Gort
11-02-2010, 09:30 AM
never have i heard "those 4 picks werent his fault" anywhere else about any other QB.

anybody - and i mean anybody - who finds a way to excuse 4 picks thrown to the same defender in the same game really has no clue about football or anything else.

1st pick. fine. maybe it was somebody else's fault.
2nd pick. well... ok. maybe it's just the DB's lucky day.

but to still be throwing at the guy enough to allow him a 3rd pick? that's a serious breakdown in common sense. if a guy has 2 picks on you already, that should be a hint to the QB not to keep throwing it that way.

however, a 4th pick? really?! that's entering the realm of stupidity. epic stupidity.

i don't care what happened on the play. if the receiver fell down. if the ball was tipped. whatever. doesn't matter. if you let a guy get a 4th pick on you, then you are to blame. the QB is 100% responsible because he shouldn't be throwing anywhere near that guy at that point.

TonyR
11-02-2010, 09:38 AM
When Shanahan took that 2007 team into San Diego on Christmas Eve I didnt think they had a shot

You beat me to it. I knew we didn't have a chance. And I'm sure Pat Bowlen knew it as well, and decided that with all the money he spent on Shanahan and the team that wasn't a feeling he should have. Did he make the right decision with McDaniels? Maybe not. But it's not hard to understand why he got rid of Shanahan.

Mile High Shack
11-02-2010, 09:39 AM
Wade was fired because Shanahan was ready.....he was always a seat warmer.

quoted for truth

TonyR
11-02-2010, 09:40 AM
Wade was fired because Shanahan was ready.....he was always a seat warmer.

That's a good point. Also, Bowlen wasn't on the hook for $ millions to a former coach, and the CBA wasn't about to expire. The situations are radically different.

TheReverend
11-02-2010, 09:41 AM
late first round is what I meant....don't you have some Cox to fondle? :D

Your open mouth smiley is way too close to cox...

JUST SAYIN

TheReverend
11-02-2010, 09:42 AM
Wade was fired because Shanahan was ready.....he was always a seat warmer.

So he should definitely keep him for under-performing a "seat warmer"?

WolfpackGuy
11-02-2010, 09:47 AM
Wade was fired because Shanahan was ready.....he was always a seat warmer.

True, although, Shanahan was ready in 1993.

He declined coming back from SF at that point because it would've seemed like he had been scheming for Reeves' job in his previous stint.

Reeves is the one that fired Shanahan the assistant which pissed Elway AND Bowlen off.

Popps
11-02-2010, 09:49 AM
Guys, sometimes the proof isn't in the pudding. No matter what happens this season, I think McD will coach winning Bronco teams in the future--the process is simply taking longer than I and many believed/hoped.

Agree, Pseudo.

We hired a young coach to clean up a very big mess. Clearly, there are going to be speed-bumps and clearly this is going to take time.

This season has sucked. It started with injuries and just got worse from there.
But, I'm willing to ride out a rough season or two if it means building a real foundation for the future instead of a turnstile for mediocre players and subpar results.

Now, thus far... the jury is out on what kind of foundation McD has built. Haters see nothing, while others see improvements. Overall, I think you're correct in that it's just too early to start making definitive judgments.

People on message boards need instant gratification, and they haven't gotten it with McDaniels. So, they want to run him out of town after 1.5 seasons. But, as I've been saying... Bowlen and Co. are going to be more patient with this situation. They know he's young, and they know how hard it is to build a champion.

By the end of next season, if we're floundering like we are now... I'm sure Bowlen will see this differently. But, hopefully we won't be. Hopefully we're able to get healthy and add a few crucial pieces to get us to a truly competitive state.

Eldorado
11-02-2010, 09:49 AM
So he should definitely keep him for under-performing a "seat warmer"?

I think the D is broke and we don't have the horses to fix it. If McD can get the oline functioning and can put a consistent, smart, balanced O on the field for the final 8 (24 ppg seem reasonable?) I would give McD 1 more offseason to address the depth on D. If not? Cut bait.

TheReverend
11-02-2010, 09:53 AM
I think the D is broke and we don't have the horses to fix it. If McD can get the oline functioning and can put a consistent, smart, balanced O on the field for the final 8 (24 ppg seem reasonable?) I would give McD 1 more offseason to address the depth on D. If not? Cut bait.

Let's be realistic. The only reason McD's job is "safe... for now" is the raw marketability of Tim Tebow. Otherwise he'd definitely be out the door in January.

TonyR
11-02-2010, 09:54 AM
We hired a young coach to clean up a very big mess. Clearly, there are going to be speed-bumps and clearly this is going to take time.

Wow, could the parallels between this and the current political environment be any closer? McDaniels = Obama? Just sayin'...

Popps
11-02-2010, 09:56 AM
Wow, could the parallels between this and the current political environment be any closer? McDaniels = Obama? Just sayin'...

Oh man, don't go there.

Popps
11-02-2010, 09:57 AM
Let's be realistic. The only reason McD's job is "safe... for now" is the raw marketability of Tim Tebow. Otherwise he'd definitely be out the door in January.

The back-up QB has nothing to do with why McDaniels' job is safe.

Bowlen has paid him a salary and simply isn't going to jump ship without giving this staff more time, particularly with a labor situation coming up.

Dude, I like Tebow, too... but you're a little over the top with this stuff.

baja
11-02-2010, 09:57 AM
I think it's clear that McDaniels staying has a lot to do with money and the front office wanting to avoid looking stupid. I do think that McDaniels has the ability to be a good head coach some day. He isn't there yet, on a few levels, and I'm tired of my team being his learn-as-you-go experience.<b> I think he dismantled a young good core group that needed improvement in a few areas and has assembled something less impressive, less talented, and less exciting. </b>

The biggest thing is, with Shanahan, I almost never went into a game thinking we didn't have a chance. He was just too good of a coach for that. It's just the opposite with Josh.

Here in lays the difference between those of us that bicker. I do understand this. If I felt this way I would be furious with McDaniels and want him gone and tomorrow would be one day too long. My rage would be deep towards Josh if I believed he dismantled a great young team that was just a few defensive pieces away. I don't believe that so I have a different perspective.

SonOfLe-loLang
11-02-2010, 09:58 AM
Wow, could the parallels between this and the current political environment be any closer? McDaniels = Obama? Just sayin'...

Oh jesus christ. Youre an idiot

Drek
11-02-2010, 09:58 AM
So he should definitely keep him for under-performing a "seat warmer"?

I don't think anyone is of the "definitely keep him" mindset at this point. At least I'd hope not. But he's only half way through his second year. Many great coaches stumbled out of the gate (note: I'm not comparing McDaniels to great coaches, just saying that early results are not indicative of final results).

The fact is McDaniels took over a job with a much higher failure than success rate. This is the nature of the NFL. At the end of the year only one team "succeeded" and as much as a quarter of the entire league will change their head coaches in any given off-season. The job has a success rate well below 50%.

McDaniels could legitimately be the single best choice Bowlen could have made and McDaniels himself can do everything right and still fail. Coaches coach, players play. That is the ultimate caveat anyone in his position lives under.

At this point its very early in McDaniels head coaching career. The window in which we define success or failure is not 24 games long. The window is as large as Bowlen feels like giving him, and that likely means at least three full seasons at a minimum. He very possibly will wind up being a failure that we replace in the near future, that is the fate of most NFL head coaches, but a real opportunity to prove himself one way or the other, definitively, should be granted before we make blanket statements.

Gort
11-02-2010, 09:59 AM
Wow, could the parallels between this and the current political environment be any closer? McDaniels = Obama? Just sayin'...

are you saying that McDaniels was born in Kenya?

;D

TheProfessor
11-02-2010, 10:02 AM
We hired a young coach to clean up a very big mess.

I see this atitude all the time around here. What exactly was the big mess?

We were a .500 football team, had been for a few years. On top of that we had players that netted McD several draft picks and a couple of veteran players in return.

The cupboards were not bare, and the worst season the team had was just under .500 at 7-9 (and for that we got rewarded with Ryan Clady). I fail to see how this team was "a very big mess".

baja
11-02-2010, 10:03 AM
McDaniels will get another year unless the team just quits playing the rest of the season. There is still this idiot perception by some that McDaniels inherited a great team that was one player away from a championship and he just totally screwed that up. There are people seriously wishing they still had that bonehead Cutler, pick waiting to happen, on this team and he somehow was going to lead this team to playoffs and championships. If the Bears even make the playoffs, it looks like it will be because of sound defense and special teams and not because of such wonderful QB play. Brandon Marshall has 1 TD so far this year. Wow.

Wow you surprise me barry, I thought for sure you would be in the "mad as hell and calling for his head" camp.

Good take IMO.

bendog
11-02-2010, 10:03 AM
Last year's draft was good. Even if Tebow flops, McDaniels had a reasonable plan, and he stuck to it and worked the draft to get his guys. I'd have gone for Dez Bryant, but WR's a crap shoot. 2008 was a bad joke. mcdaniels was like that nutty woman running for the senate in Conn who makes an ass of herself and slaps herself on the back for "nailing it."

Maybe McDaniels can produce an offense. NE got away from the run when he was there, and they also stopped winning championships. One thing is always true in football: in December teams that win championships run the football UNLESS they are a dome team with homefield advantage thrroughout. Knowshow isn't even as good as an old Cory Dillon was, however. Knowshow isn't even as good as Ben Jarvous Green-Ellis is.

Maybe McDaniels ego will allow him to hire and work with top flight defensive coordinators. Shanahan had issues there too, but he's teamed up with Hatless Jim Haslett who doesn't appear to have any desire to be a head coach again, and who is a legit DC guy.

Bowlen seems to be sick. Doesn't really matter because there's no way McDaniels doesn't stay at least through one more entire season of games actually being played.

With Saban fans knew he was a guy who knew how NFL teams were operated. Floyd Little and the defense played hard. They won early in the season in 1969, but then fell apart, and Saban never could find a QB, and by 1970 even he was worn out and ready to move on. Are fans gonna keep buying tickets to see Oakland and most likely KC embarass the franchise? If not, then McDaniels will get fired. Not before. He works cheap.

Popps
11-02-2010, 10:04 AM
My rage would be deep towards Josh if I believed he dismantled a great young team that was just a few defensive pieces away. I don't believe that so I have a different perspective.

Here's the great young team he dismantled...

Jay Cutler: Pure garbage and a massive fail since leaving. Being soundly outplayed by his replacement.

Brandon Marshall: Being soundly outplayed by his replacement. (Though no suspensions thus far, so I have to give him that.)

Peyton Hillis: Has found his niche in Cleveland, but apparently couldn't learn the same plays Larsen could learn in Denver.

Tony Scheffler: An oft-injured, pass catching TE who's likely going to be a journeyman in the NFL. 90% of fans have never heard of the guy.



What else? Where's this "great core of young players" McD "broke up?" The rest of the Shanahan guys that were worth a **** are HERE still. The other 80% of them are basically out of football because they were awful.


This is a situation where people without real perspective repeat the same things aloud over and over until they actually believe it themselves.

jhns
11-02-2010, 10:08 AM
This is a situation where people without real perspective repeat the same things aloud over and over until they actually believe it themselves.

LOL

Sure, McDaniels moves have proven to be the right ones. That is why this team is so pathetic that we let the Raiders set franchise records on us at home. That is why we just lost to one of the worst teams in the league. We have only improved since McDaniels took over! It is obvious that those players were not good for us as we got worse when they left!

Wow...

colonelbeef
11-02-2010, 10:08 AM
I am starting to really get curious as to what Bowlen's health issues are...

baja
11-02-2010, 10:09 AM
Clearly they didn't use their brains either. He upgraded the franchise? What makes that an accurate statement? The 2-6 record? The losing streak longer than any we had under Shanahan? Letting the Raiders set franchise records on us?

Sorry if my not agreeing is offensive to you baja. I like to live in reality though. I can't help but use my brain when thinking...

No, not at all offensive. You are entitled to your opinion. You clearly love your Broncos. We just see it differently. And in the end you could be the one that is right about Josh. I don't think so but truth is none of us really knows (even if we think we do). My take is simply he has not had sufficient time to prove one way or another what kind of head coach he will be.

bendog
11-02-2010, 10:10 AM
just revise, popps.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=true&conference=null&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=TOTAL_YARDS&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2008&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go

NFLBRONCO
11-02-2010, 10:11 AM
On the topic of McD's job security.

Bowlen fired Wade after a 16-16 record in two seasons.

McDaniels would have to go 6-2 from here on out just to MATCH the production Wade got fired with.

While you make a valid point here you forget Bowlen had his sights on Shanny so Wade's tenure was doomed regardless. I don't feel Bowlen has that next guy in mind at the moment totally different situations.

Br0nc0Buster
11-02-2010, 10:12 AM
I think Josh is a bright guy and knows his football very well, but for whatever reason cannot translate that onto the field

I hope he turns it around, because it would be a shame to have to start all over yet again

I give him the rest of this year, and next year unless this team just completely tanks and doesnt win a game the rest of this year and starts out awful next year

perhaps canning almost all of the coaches in the offseason would help, because Matindale, Barone, Preifer, etc... dont seem to know what they are doing

TonyR
11-02-2010, 10:14 AM
Oh jesus christ. Youre an idiot

Wow, somebody takes things just a little bit too seriously...

jhns
11-02-2010, 10:15 AM
No, not at all offensive. You are entitled to your opinion. You clearly love your Broncos. We just see it differently. And in the end you could be the one that is right about Josh. I don't think so but truth is none of us really knows (even if we think we do). My take is simply he has not had sufficient time to prove one way or another what kind of head coach he will be.

This is a fair and reasonable take. Are we still on the mane?

NFLBRONCO
11-02-2010, 10:15 AM
I think Josh is a bright guy and knows his football very well, but for whatever reason cannot translate that onto the field

I hope he turns it around, because it would be a shame to have to start all over yet again

I give him the rest of this year, and next year unless this team just completely tanks and doesnt win a game the rest of this year and starts out awful next year

perhaps canning almost all of the coaches in the offseason would help, because Matindale, Barone, Preifer, etc... dont seem to know what they are doing

I agree here but, I will ask a question. How many exp HC's could win alot with present shape of team. Until DE ILB S positions are upgraded very few imo. I do think McD's should have assembled an experienced coaching staff to help him while learning the ropes of being a HC.

bendog
11-02-2010, 10:19 AM
I agree here but, I will ask a question. How many exp HC's could win alot with present shape of team. Until DE ILB S positions are upgraded very few imo. I do think McD's should have assembled an experienced coaching staff to help him while learning the ropes of being a HC.

he's had two years. This is his team. His guys.

baja
11-02-2010, 10:24 AM
I hope that Mr. Bowlen can live out a long healthy life. He's helped build my city to what it is today. Yeah our team is down right now but where is the compassion for the man who has continually put the pieces in place for so many years and brought our "cow town" a couple world championships?

+ 1000 and Thank You Steve

Double rep.

What the hell is wrong with you people anyway.

A society without compassion will eat itself from the inside out.

I started a thread about this the other day and it got so embarrassing to me I had to delete it. Thread was full of 'jokes' at Pat's expense and when I tried to point out the seriousness of dementia I was called a bleeding heart.

bendog
11-02-2010, 10:29 AM
yeah, without Bowlen there'd be no broncos. (laughing)

But, it's bad taste to wish illness or harm to any person. Though a falling rock or rogue great white and a certain young head coach ..... (joking)

baja
11-02-2010, 10:29 AM
Ya know Meck as much as we fight I see on the really important stuff we often agree.

NFLBRONCO
11-02-2010, 10:31 AM
he's had two years. This is his team. His guys.


I agree but, whether its him or a new coach they need to address DE ILB S positions and when a few NT's come out one of them too. I give him a pass avoiding it past two drafts but, not this one we should be focusing on DE this year.

baja
11-02-2010, 10:36 AM
On the topic of McD's job security.

Bowlen fired Wade after a 16-16 record in two seasons.

McDaniels would have to go 6-2 from here on out just to MATCH the production Wade got fired with.

You tend to form your opinion based on numbers that exist in a vacuum.

Wade was holding a spot for Shanny

Josh is perceived by ownership as well as his advisers as the next great coach who came in and started a rebuild from the ground up and they are fully aware this will take some time and as the article says they believe he is doing a good job building the new Broncos.

bendog
11-02-2010, 10:38 AM
I agree but, whether its him or a new coach they need to address DE ILB S positions and when a few NT's come out one of them too. I give him a pass avoiding it past two drafts but, not this one we should be focusing on DE this year.

Well, i don't really give him a pass for the 08 draft. There was no excuse for that epic fail, and for him to act so smug after he got raped just pissed me off more. But there's nothing I can do about it. People can bitch about how he had to "rebuild" the no2 yardage offense in the NFL (wtf, lol), and homer on. but the reality is that this guy is going to get at least two more nfl drafts, so there's really no excuse for him not to get a good front 7 in here. I'm not sure how much money Bowlen (or John Bowlen or Ellis or whoever is running this show) will let him spend in FA, but still.

He still has no real running back, and he's short at least two offensive linemen too, and there's maybe five guys on defense who actually deserve to start in the NFL.

baja
11-02-2010, 10:44 AM
anybody - and i mean anybody - who finds a way to excuse 4 picks thrown to the same defender in the same game really has no clue about football or anything else.

1st pick. fine. maybe it was somebody else's fault.
2nd pick. well... ok. maybe it's just the DB's lucky day.

but to still be throwing at the guy enough to allow him a 3rd pick? that's a serious breakdown in common sense. if a guy has 2 picks on you already, that should be a hint to the QB not to keep throwing it that way.

however, a 4th pick? really?! that's entering the realm of stupidity. epic stupidity.

i don't care what happened on the play. if the receiver fell down. if the ball was tipped. whatever. doesn't matter. if you let a guy get a 4th pick on you, then you are to blame. the QB is 100% responsible because he shouldn't be throwing anywhere near that guy at that point.

Cutler's biggest enemy is his own ego. He kept going back at him because he wanted to teach him a lesson. Cutler does not consider his limitations and until he does he will be a coach killer and bad for a team. The Jeff George comparisons are right on the money.

baja
11-02-2010, 10:49 AM
Let's be realistic. The only reason McD's job is "safe... for now" is the raw marketability of Tim Tebow. <b> Otherwise he'd definitely be out the door in January.

This post is go_broncos worthy.

Rock Chalk
11-02-2010, 10:55 AM
On the topic of McD's job security.

Bowlen fired Wade after a 16-16 record in two seasons.

McDaniels would have to go 6-2 from here on out just to MATCH the production Wade got fired with.

Wade inherited a hall of fame Quarterback that is the most beloved player in franchise history and there was no reason to be .500 with Elway.

Ever.

ScottXray
11-02-2010, 10:57 AM
On the topic of McD's job security.

Bowlen fired Wade after a 16-16 record in two seasons.

McDaniels would have to go 6-2 from here on out just to MATCH the production Wade got fired with.

Bowlen wanted Shanahan when he put Wade in...Wade was just a placeholder
since Shanny said no when Reeves was canned, and as soon as Bowlen could actually get Shanahan to agree to coach here, Wade was done. His record would have had to have been playoff bound to avoid it.

The loss to the Raidersand the record was Bowlens excuse to make the move, but Phillips was never popular and there was no uproar over him bringing Shanny in.

And Shanahan inherited a much better team than he left in place for McD. People can argue that the O was poised to explode the next year but the D was pure trash, and the O line was starting to come apart already.

tonngo0
11-02-2010, 11:10 AM
I think the Broncos will set another milestone ... for being 0-6 in AFC West. As for this year Draft, if McD drafted Dez Bryant McD could have sit tight and draft and didn't have to move up to take Thomas either.

tsiguy96
11-02-2010, 11:12 AM
I think the Broncos will set another milestone ... for being 0-6 in AFC West. As for this year Draft, if McD drafted Dez Bryant McD could have sit tight and draft and didn't have to move up to take Thomas either.

people are complaining about demaryius?

bendog
11-02-2010, 11:13 AM
Wade inherited a hall of fame Quarterback that is the most beloved player in franchise history and there was no reason to be .500 with Elway.

Ever.

Elway would be lucky to be .500 with this team. lol

jhns
11-02-2010, 11:14 AM
And Shanahan inherited a much better team than he left in place for McD. People can argue that the O was poised to explode the next year but the D was pure trash, and the O line was starting to come apart already.

That is not true at all. Shanahan did not inherit a team that was better than .500. He left a team that was .500. That team was .500 with more injuries than this current one has. That o-line was one of the best in the league. The two scape goats for last season are now playing well on other teams. There is no need to throw these players under the bus just because McDaniels can't produce a run game and doesn't know how to protect his QB. Even Clady has looked bad at times and there is no way you can convince anyone that he is just regressing because he is unskilled.

WolfpackGuy
11-02-2010, 11:15 AM
If he's hanging his hat on Teboz, then the team is really ******.

yerner
11-02-2010, 11:18 AM
I'm not sure what keeping Mcd around for another year does for the Broncos. Say we finish 4-12 this year, which I think would be the worst case, what's next years team do? 6 or 7 wins? Isn't it pretty rare for a team to jump more than a couple wins? I'm sure some teams have done it, but I don't see one offseason changing this particuliar team all that much. So is 7 wins next year a good year or a bad year?

Obviously, this all depends how they finish this season.

HAT
11-02-2010, 11:19 AM
If he's hanging his hat on Teboz, then the team is really ******.

McD isn't....The Mane is.

bendog
11-02-2010, 11:51 AM
Bowlen wanted Shanahan when he put Wade in...Wade was just a placeholder
since Shanny said no when Reeves was canned, and as soon as Bowlen could actually get Shanahan to agree to coach here, Wade was done. His record would have had to have been playoff bound to avoid it.

The loss to the Raidersand the record was Bowlens excuse to make the move, but Phillips was never popular and there was no uproar over him bringing Shanny in.

And Shanahan inherited a much better team than he left in place for McD. People can argue that the O was poised to explode the next year but the D was pure trash, and the O line was starting to come apart already.

Shanahan ADDED TWELVE STARTERS WHO WERE NOT ON THE 1994 ROSTER TO THE 1996 ROSTER. If he started out like McDaniels has, he'd have been canned.
OL: Zim, Stinky, Nalen, Habib and Thompson

OL: Zim, Melander, Widell(Nalen on team), Habib and Freeman.

RB: TD

RB: Russell

FB: Jerry Evans (H Back)

FB: Craver

WR: Miller (Smith on team) , Emac

WR Smith and EMac.

TE: Sharpe

QB: Elway

DL: Dronett. Ted Washington, Hasselbach/DanWilliams and Fletcher

DL: Dan Williams, Lodish, Perry and A.Williams

LB: Alexander, Meck (Aldridge on team) and Croel

LB: Romo, Aldridge Mobley

CB: Crocket and Ben Smith

CB: Crocket and Lionel Washington

S: Denis Smith and Atwater

S: Braxton and Atwater

PLAYERS SHANNY BROUGHT IN: Stinky, Thompson, TD, Craver, Lodish, Perry, A.Williams, Romo, Mobley, Lionel Washington and Braxton.

Ray Finkle
11-02-2010, 11:52 AM
Your open mouth smiley is way too close to cox...

JUST SAYIN

and again, you're the first to notice that.....caught you in the gay trap once again!

baja
11-02-2010, 11:57 AM
and again, you're the first to notice that.....caught you in the gay trap once again!

If you point out his bull shiit to him often enough he will put you on ignore and that is heavenly.


No more insults out of left field or caustic neg rep.

Ray Finkle
11-02-2010, 12:10 PM
If you point out his bull shiit to him often enough he will put you on ignore and that is heavenly.


No more insults out of left field or caustic neg rep.

if he puts me on ignore, I will find him and beat him with an inflatable lobster....

baja
11-02-2010, 12:11 PM
if he puts me on ignore, I will find him and beat him with an inflatable lobster....

He would like that...

2KBack
11-02-2010, 12:15 PM
Shanahan ADDED TWELVE STARTERS WHO WERE NOT ON THE 1994 ROSTER TO THE 1996 ROSTER. If he started out like McDaniels has, he'd have been canned.
OL: Zim, Stinky, Nalen, Habib and Thompson

OL: Zim, Melander, Widell(Nalen on team), Habib and Freeman.

RB: TD

RB: Russell

FB: Jerry Evans (H Back)

FB: Craver

WR: Miller (Smith on team) , Emac

WR Smith and EMac.

TE: Sharpe

QB: Elway

DL: Dronett. Ted Washington, Hasselbach/DanWilliams and Fletcher

DL: Dan Williams, Lodish, Perry and A.Williams

LB: Alexander, Meck (Aldridge on team) and Croel

LB: Romo, Aldridge Mobley

CB: Crocket and Ben Smith

CB: Crocket and Lionel Washington

S: Denis Smith and Atwater

S: Braxton and Atwater

PLAYERS SHANNY BROUGHT IN: Stinky, Thompson, TD, Craver, Lodish, Perry, A.Williams, Romo, Mobley, Lionel Washington and Braxton.

only adding 12 players in 2 years tells me that the team was pretty well built already.

baja
11-02-2010, 12:19 PM
only adding 12 players in 2 years tells me that the team was pretty well built already.

bingo

jhns
11-02-2010, 12:24 PM
only adding 12 players in 2 years tells me that the team was pretty well built already.

Ummm, those were just the starters he changed in those years. They were not the only players he added.

Why are you guys so ready to throw Shanahan under the bus and then get so offended the second someone questions McDaniels? As Bronco fans, you have your priorities really twisted. Shanahan did great things for this team. McDaniels, not so much....

bendog
11-02-2010, 12:24 PM
replacing 12 of 22 starters with guys who were not on the roster shows the team was already built? Where do you buy your drugs?

bronco militia
11-02-2010, 12:24 PM
fast forward to the 97 team and see how many more players shanny added compared to 1994

bronco militia
11-02-2010, 12:25 PM
replacing 12 of 22 starters with guys who were not on the roster shows the team was already built? Where do you buy your drugs?

yes, the key word is STARTERS.

bendog
11-02-2010, 12:25 PM
fast forward to the 97 team and see how many more players shanny added compared to 1994

I was trying to make it simple enough for baja. I failed.

jhns
11-02-2010, 12:25 PM
bingo

Changing 12 of 22 starters shows that the team was already well built?

LOL

Wow....

baja
11-02-2010, 12:31 PM
Ummm, those were just the starters he changed in those years. They were not the only players he added.

Why are you guys so ready to throw Shanahan under the bus and then get so offended the second someone questions McDaniels? As Bronco fans, you have your priorities really twisted. Shanahan did great things for this team. McDaniels, not so much....

There is a difference between throwing a guy under the bus and pointing out his short comings.

There are a lot of guys and gals here that think Shanny is a god and can do no wrong and think McD is the devil himself and is tearing the team apart. Neither is true

baja
11-02-2010, 12:33 PM
Changing 12 of 22 starters shows that the team was already well built?

LOL

Wow....

You are right I did not catch it was starters only. My bad.

This the post I was commenting on;

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2kback
only adding 12 players in 2 years tells me that the team was pretty well built already.

Florida_Bronco
11-02-2010, 12:37 PM
and finds someone who can embody what Bronco football is all about.

And what is exactly is "Bronco football" all about?

baja
11-02-2010, 12:37 PM
I was trying to make it simple enough for baja. I failed.

You didn't fail dog, it's just that I don't read all of your posts because I have come to realize they usually aren't very good.

Rohirrim
11-02-2010, 12:39 PM
I have a hard time assessing Shanahan's tenure in Denver. He was always a great game day coach. But you have to take into account the Elway Factor. Elway took Reeves' coached teams to three SBs. That was an amazing accomplishment. I remember many games that you could really argue Elway won on his own in the fourth quarter. Then, there was the luckiest sixth round draft pick in team history, TD (which, BTW, Shanahan admits was pure luck). Shanahan definitely was in the right place at the right time and he didn't screw the pooch when the stars aligned for him. But his post-Elway years tarnish the Mastermind title, IMHO.

jhns
11-02-2010, 12:42 PM
There is a difference between throwing a guy under the bus and pointing out his short comings.


Trying to take even the smallest bit of credit from him for what he did to win those SBs is being pretty disrespectful of a Broncos great. He turned a **** team into one of the best ever teams in a very short time. It is pretty sad that this needs to be explained to Bronco fans but I see it all the time. I don't see why anyone other than fans of division rivals would try taking credit from him.

Again, some of you do this and then are so fast to jump on even the slightest critisism of McDaniels. You mise well go around chanting that Elway was a **** QB that couldn't do it without Shanahan and Orton is the bestest ever!

Sorry, Bronco fans disrespecting Shanahan is one of the few things in this world that offends me.

Hulamau
11-02-2010, 12:47 PM
Guys, sometimes the proof isn't in the pudding. No matter what happens this season, I think McD will coach winning Bronco teams in the future--the process is simply taking longer than I and many believed/hoped.

Agreed, no one expected Josh to be a seasoned old pro the moment he came in. Yes he's made mistakes and is totally rebuilding this team. Yes we're just over half way through that process and obviously our depth hasn't be able to perform in light of the train wreak of injuries we've had since the first day of training camp and specially on defense and the game costing screw ups these backups ( and injured starters playing too soon) have made.

It really does behoove us all to just step back and acknowledge what the mood around here would be like were it not for two or three play screw ups mostly by scrubs who normally wouldnt even be on the field, before tar and feathering Josh and running him out of town before the KC game.

Josh deserves at least the rest of this season and if hes able to turn it around even a bit and win a handful of games the rest of the year, its definitely in our best interest to allow him to complete the rebuild and give this team a chance with a healthier squad next year. If that starts out fail then bring in Cowher or whoever .

I am in favor of looking for a stronger more experienced GM now to help take some of the load off Josh as well. Josh is young and a bit raw in certain areas. but he's also got a lot of talent as well and he IS going to put it all together either here or somewhere else down the road.

If wer'e going to have the wisdom and patience to endure such hardships to possibly reap those rewards, we're all going have to stop premature ejactulating and not the throw the baby out with the bathwater over a season of adversity without really being 100% sure its the right call,.

If we kneejerk this thing now, then maybe we only deserve and will get a longer period of revolving door coaching hell ala The Faid, KC or Cleveland over the last decade or so??

I hope we have more foresight and better judgement than that? Firing Josh NOW would be the height of over reacting nonsense and any stud NFL player with half a brain wouldnt want to even consider Denver with that kind of knee jerk mentality.

No doubt we're in the hole right now, and Josh certainly has had his hand in us getting there, but it is far from all on him as well, and all of us and the players as well as Josh deserve a fair shake at climbing out of this mess before we throw in the towel so emotionally.

Josh HAS shown the capacity to learn and adapt from last year to this, and no doubt is getting a crash course lesson in a lot of areas now. Yes, it is on the job training no doubt, but that was the deal with a 33 year old HC to begin with.

There will come a point where it is obvious he isnt able to turn this around and when that time comes he'll be gone... In the meantime suggest everyone pulling out their hair to do some breathing excercises, enjoy a nice sunset and strap in for another year knowing full well either Josh starts to succeed in the next 12 months or you'll surely get your hearts desire for a new coach.... Easy does it here this year.

baja
11-02-2010, 12:47 PM
Trying to take even the smallest bit of credit from him for what he did to win those SBs is being pretty disrespectful of a Broncos great. He turned a **** team into one of the best ever teams in a very short time. It is pretty sad that this needs to be explained to Bronco fans but I see it all the time. I don't see why anyone other than fans of division rivals would try taking credit from him.

Again, some of you do this and then are so fast to jump on even the slightest critisism of McDaniels. You mise well go around chanting that Elway was a **** QB that couldn't do it without Shanahan and Orton is the bestest ever!

Who do you see not giving him credit and gratitude for the super bowls

bendog
11-02-2010, 12:52 PM
You didn't fail dog, it's just that I don't read all of your posts because I have come to realize they usually aren't very good.

you really believe the bs you sell yourself. pity.

jhns
11-02-2010, 12:54 PM
Who do you see not giving him credit and gratitude for the super bowls

I see it all the time, just like earlier in this thread. It is always the same talk of him inheriting those teams. The team in which he had to replace the majority of the starters. I would say that is trying to take a ton of credit from what he did.

2KBack
11-02-2010, 12:56 PM
replacing 12 of 22 starters with guys who were not on the roster shows the team was already built? Where do you buy your drugs?

Absolutely it does. Context needs to be taken. The core of that team was already there. Hall of fame QB, Hall of Fame LT, Hall of Fame TE, Hall of Fame Safety, you know all the players that also made the pro bowl in 1996. Then you have to consider the need to replace starters like Meck and D. Smith who Retired and were starters that had to be replaced, or the need to add a FB like Craver cuz Denver didn't use a FB like that in 1994.

Need to look deeper than OMG the dude replaced 12 starters

jhns
11-02-2010, 01:00 PM
Absolutely it does. Context needs to be taken. The core of that team was already there. Hall of fame QB, Hall of Fame LT, Hall of Fame TE, Hall of Fame Safety, you know all the players that also made the pro bowl in 1996. Then you have to consider the need to replace starters like Meck and D. Smith who Retired and were starters that had to be replaced, or the need to add a FB like Craver cuz Denver didn't use a FB like that in 1994.

Need to look deeper than OMG the dude replaced 12 starters

So 3 good players show that he didn't have to build the team himself? Wtf?

Why exactly were they not winning before Shanahan then? Why didn't we have some SB wins before him? Your theories are extremely flawed.

Now let's put your argument into context. What team in the NFL do you know that doesn't have any talent on it? What team has any coach taken over and had to change every single starter in the first couple of years? Do you think McDaniels got this team with no good starters?

baja
11-02-2010, 01:01 PM
you really believe the bs you sell yourself. pity.

What ever dog. Why are you here now after being gone so long. I've read your many posts on Junkies board making fun of the drama queens here. I thought we were not worthy of your time here but here you are...

baja
11-02-2010, 01:02 PM
I see it all the time, just like earlier in this thread. It is always the same talk of him inheriting those teams. The team in which he had to replace the majority of the starters. I would say that is trying to take a ton of credit from what he did.

i'd like to see one serious post that says Shanny deserves no credit for the super bowls.

I think what you are seeing is Shanny does not deserve all the credit he had some good players to start with like a HOF QB and a all world 6th round RB.

What do you think our record would be if we had a 1997 John Elway and a 1997 TD

jhns
11-02-2010, 01:06 PM
i'd like to see one serious post that says Shanny deserves no credit for the super bowls.

That is a good spin on what I said and all but I can clearly show where I have been saying "taking credit away from" and never once said "gave no credit to"....

I have already explained how mutliple posters are trying to diminish his role in making that team what it was.

bendog
11-02-2010, 01:10 PM
I have a hard time assessing Shanahan's tenure in Denver. He was always a great game day coach. But you have to take into account the Elway Factor. Elway took Reeves' coached teams to three SBs. That was an amazing accomplishment. I remember many games that you could really argue Elway won on his own in the fourth quarter. Then, there was the luckiest sixth round draft pick in team history, TD (which, BTW, Shanahan admits was pure luck). Shanahan definitely was in the right place at the right time and he didn't screw the pooch when the stars aligned for him. But his post-Elway years tarnish the Mastermind title, IMHO.

thing is that his running game succeeded w/o TD. Sure it was a lucky pick. Sure, TD was a great gamer runningback because he actually seemed to run harder in the 4th qtr. But if you look at the caliber of free agents he brought in on defense (and drafted Mobley who is vastly underrated because he played a short time before wrecking his knee and didn't take care of himself) that was a remarkable job of getting a veteran team over the hump.

He inherited Smith and EMac as well as Sharpe and of course Elway. I think his system and his Free Agent additions could have won the lombardis without TD, or that he'd have found a running back like Sonic to get pretty much the same production out of. But without Elway, no Lombardis.

Personally, I don't think he was/is capable of building a winner from top to bottom. Shanny rebuilt the offense in the 2000s. Cutler can succeed in the right offense; he did in Den. But the defense was getting worse. shanny's brilliance as an offensive coach just didn't transfer to personnel. His drafts were better towards the end, but the overall roster didn't really show it. But Landry doesn't succeed without Schram. Lombardi did his own personnel, I think. Walsh is maybe the closest total package, but even he didn't initially build the 49ers dynasty. Carmen Policy did that.

the pity is that people like baja somehow think they're embellishing McDaniels and hiding his incompetent performance by dissing a guy who really couldn't care less if the broncos win or lose.

tonngo0
11-02-2010, 01:15 PM
people are complaining about demaryius?

I'm just saying that the Broncos could have sit tight and trade additional draft pick to NE to move up and select Thomas. I just saying either Thomas or Bryant would have been ok and why do you have to waste an additional pick.

baja
11-02-2010, 01:16 PM
thing is that his running game succeeded w/o TD. Sure it was a lucky pick. Sure, TD was a great gamer runningback because he actually seemed to run harder in the 4th qtr. But if you look at the caliber of free agents he brought in on defense (and drafted Mobley who is vastly underrated because he played a short time before wrecking his knee and didn't take care of himself) that was a remarkable job of getting a veteran team over the hump.

He inherited Smith and EMac as well as Sharpe and of course Elway. I think his system and his Free Agent additions could have won the lombardis without TD, or that he'd have found a running back like Sonic to get pretty much the same production out of. But without Elway, no Lombardis.

Personally, I don't think he was/is capable of building a winner from top to bottom. Shanny rebuilt the offense in the 2000s. Cutler can succeed in the right offense; he did in Den. But the defense was getting worse. shanny's brilliance as an offensive coach just didn't transfer to personnel. His drafts were better towards the end, but the overall roster didn't really show it. But Landry doesn't succeed without Schram. Lombardi did his own personnel, I think. Walsh is maybe the closest total package, but even he didn't initially build the 49ers dynasty. Carmen Policy did that.

<b.the pity is that people like baja somehow think they're embellishing McDaniels and hiding his incompetent performance by dissing a guy who really couldn't care less if the broncos win or lose.

I got an idea you should put me on ignore. You misread my posts anyway. McDaniels has a lot to prove and I've said so consistently.

2KBack
11-02-2010, 01:17 PM
I credit Shanahan for coaching the team that won those Superbowls. I think the closest he's ever been to building his own Championship team was 2005 though, and then he blew it up.

bendog
11-02-2010, 01:18 PM
I got an idea you should put me on ignore. You misread my posts anyway. McDaniels has a lot to prove and I've said so consistently.

Then why do you flap your gums about SHANAHAN ON A THREAD ABOUT MCDANIELS SCREWING THE POOCH. JFC. Dissemble much. lol

baja
11-02-2010, 01:21 PM
Then why do you flap your gums about SHANAHAN ON A THREAD ABOUT MCDANIELS SCREWING THE POOCH. JFC. Dissemble much. lol

Because people try to turn Shanny into a flawless God and McD into a hapless fool. Reason enough?

jhns
11-02-2010, 01:23 PM
I credit Shanahan for coaching the team that won those Superbowls. I think the closest he's ever been to building his own Championship team was 2005 though, and then he blew it up.

That is because you are just a hater. You don't put your argument into any kind of context and say others should do it for their arguments. Again, what team in the NFL has no talent. What coach have you ever seen come in and replace every starter? Are you claiming no coach has ever built their own team unless it was someone that was on the same team for 8+ years? Do you think McDaniels had no good players to build around when he came here? Would you say he is building his own team?

I bet if you answer all of these, you won't be saying the same crap.

jhns
11-02-2010, 01:26 PM
Because people try to turn Shanny into a flawless God and McD into a hapless fool. Reason enough?

People turn Elway into a flawless God as well. That is what Bronco fans do with Bronco greats. Why would a Bronco fan find this to be a bad thing?

You can defend McDaniels without ever mentioning Shanahan....

baja
11-02-2010, 01:29 PM
People turn Elway into a flawless God as well. That is what Bronco fans do with Bronco greats. Why would a Bronco fan find this to be a bad thing?

You can defend McDaniels without ever mentioning Shanahan....

I'm not so much defending Josh as I'm trying to point out the verdict is still out on him. He may well fail it's just too soon to call.

Don't know why that is so hard to understand.

It does look like you have succeeded in temporally running of Drek, Popps and Dagmar though so I guess that's something for ya.

tonngo0
11-02-2010, 01:42 PM
I hope we have more foresight and better judgement than that? Firing Josh NOW would be the height of over reacting nonsense and any stud NFL player with half a brain wouldnt want to even consider Denver with that kind of knee jerk mentality.

No doubt we're in the hole right now, and Josh certainly has had his hand in us getting there, but it is far from all on him as well, and all of us and the players as well as Josh deserve a fair shake at climbing out of this mess before we throw in the towel so emotionally.

Josh HAS shown the capacity to learn and adapt from last year to this, and no doubt is getting a crash course lesson in a lot of areas now. Yes, it is on the job training no doubt, but that was the deal with a 33 year old HC to begin with.

There will come a point where it is obvious he isnt able to turn this around and when that time comes he'll be gone... In the meantime suggest everyone pulling out their hair to do some breathing excercises, enjoy a nice sunset and strap in for another year knowing full well either Josh starts to succeed in the next 12 months or you'll surely get your hearts desire for a new coach.... Easy does it here this year.

The problem is Bowlen picked the wrong guy for the job 2 years ago. Back then when Jeremy Bate was calling the offensive play so at least you can bring in a Def specialist to coach the defense side and let Bates run the offense. As of now, the defense still sucks, the offense being run by McD, so if you fire McD now and both offense and defense has to rebuild.

I think the problem with Josh was when he started 6-0 last year and he was gloating about it like I told you so. With the ship sinking McD will get more grief that's all. I also agree that Josh will be a good coach some day but not with the Broncos that's all.

jhns
11-02-2010, 01:44 PM
I'm not so much defending Josh as I'm trying to point out the verdict is still out on him. He may well fail it's just too soon to call.

Don't know why that is so hard to understand.

It does look like you have succeeded in temporally running of Drek, Popps and Dagmar though so I guess that's something for ya.

Fair enough, though my point is the same even if you replace defending him to "trying to make people see that he hasn't had enough time."

As for the posters, it is not my fault if some are too weak to defend the positions they took. I'm not going to feel sorry for them after all the crap I take for my views.

baja
11-02-2010, 01:46 PM
Fair enough, though my point is the same even if you replace defending him to "trying to make people see that he hasn't had enough time."

As for the posters, it is not my fault if some are too weak to defend the positions they took. I'm not going to feel sorry for them after all the crap I take for my views.

ya but you're wrong and they're not. ;D

Rohirrim
11-02-2010, 01:51 PM
thing is that his running game succeeded w/o TD. Sure it was a lucky pick. Sure, TD was a great gamer runningback because he actually seemed to run harder in the 4th qtr. But if you look at the caliber of free agents he brought in on defense (and drafted Mobley who is vastly underrated because he played a short time before wrecking his knee and didn't take care of himself) that was a remarkable job of getting a veteran team over the hump.

He inherited Smith and EMac as well as Sharpe and of course Elway. I think his system and his Free Agent additions could have won the lombardis without TD, or that he'd have found a running back like Sonic to get pretty much the same production out of. But without Elway, no Lombardis.

Personally, I don't think he was/is capable of building a winner from top to bottom. Shanny rebuilt the offense in the 2000s. Cutler can succeed in the right offense; he did in Den. But the defense was getting worse. shanny's brilliance as an offensive coach just didn't transfer to personnel. His drafts were better towards the end, but the overall roster didn't really show it. But Landry doesn't succeed without Schram. Lombardi did his own personnel, I think. Walsh is maybe the closest total package, but even he didn't initially build the 49ers dynasty. Carmen Policy did that.

the pity is that people like baja somehow think they're embellishing McDaniels and hiding his incompetent performance by dissing a guy who really couldn't care less if the broncos win or lose.

Shanahan is definitely a master of offense and game day coaching. I don't think anybody doubts that. Plus, he's a master of the ZBS. Probably the best there is. The biggest mistake that happened in Denver for Mike (IMO) was that he just was given too much power. If these rumors about Bowlen are true, maybe that had something to do with it. When it came to building a defense, Mike just always seemed to be firing blanks and he couldn't just delegate somebody to run that part of the team and leave them alone. He was like a golfer who can drive it a mile and hit ever green in regulation, but couldn't putt worth a **** and thought the remedy was to keep changing putters.

baja
11-02-2010, 01:54 PM
He was like a golfer who can drive it a mile and hit ever green in regulation, but couldn't putt worth a **** and thought the remedy was to keep changing putters.

LOL good one. and the rest of your post is fair too. Mike was and is a great offensive mind and game day coach. He got the most out of the players that shiity GM gave him.

bendog
11-02-2010, 01:56 PM
I credit Shanahan for coaching the team that won those Superbowls. I think the closest he's ever been to building his own Championship team was 2005 though, and then he blew it up.

I sorta disagree, but then agree in a way too. That was his team, and the Pitt lose did something bad to him, and I think it was the beginning of the end for him in Den. Pitt was blitzing had Jake had single coverage, but he couldn't escape contain to hit the deep passes. Lepsis didn't have a good game. Pitt went maximum protection and put just two or even one guy in routes, and Rapesburger had the time to make the pass. I think shanny decided that Jake had taken him as far as Jake was capable of doing. And in an earlier year, his QB (ferrote) couldn't pull the rock down and hoof it for a first down against Balt. So, Shanny got Jake.

Coming out of Vandy, Cutler was as good as Eli was out of Ole Miss. Jeff Fisher and Shanny talked, and Fisher would've been happy to take Cutler or Young. I think shanny can build an offense anywhere.

But somehow, he came across these guys in two years.

PLAYERS SHANNY BROUGHT IN: Stinky, Thompson, TD, Craver, Lodish, Perry, A.Williams, Romo, Mobley, Lionel Washington and Braxton.

That's SEVEN defensive starters. And to get the first Lombardi he got Traylor and N. Smith and replaced washington with darrien Gordon. That's really NINE defensive starters and EIGHT from Free Agency. The Saints have sort of done a similar makeover, but not really that drastic with such players. N. Smith and Romo actually sniff the HOF, and Traylor had a fine career. It may be that teams really can't do that anymore. I don't really know.

jhns
11-02-2010, 01:59 PM
ya but you're wrong and they're not. ;D

LOL

I hate you.

Rohirrim
11-02-2010, 02:01 PM
LOL good one. and the rest of your post is fair too. Mike was and is a great offensive mind and game day coach. He got the most out of the players that shiity GM gave him.

Imagine a team with Shanahan running the offense and LeBeau running the defense... Yikes!

baja
11-02-2010, 02:04 PM
Imagine a team with Shanahan running the offense and LeBeau running the defense... Yikes!


and this guy as GM;

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/People/Staff/Player_Personnel/Ozzie_Newsome.aspx

bendog
11-02-2010, 02:09 PM
Well for some reason, he got the guys in 1996 and 97, but when I look at 2005, the defensive personnel looks a lot weaker. Why that was, I have no idea.

http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/denver-broncos/roster/2005

http://www.footballdb.com/teams/nfl/denver-broncos/roster/1996

When he gave the money to Pryce with the understanding that Pryce was gonna be sniffing ten sacks from the LDE, and Pryce ended up not showing up for playoff games, that sucked.

2KBack
11-02-2010, 02:10 PM
I sorta disagree, but then agree in a way too. That was his team, and the Pitt lose did something bad to him, and I think it was the beginning of the end for him in Den. Pitt was blitzing had Jake had single coverage, but he couldn't escape contain to hit the deep passes. Lepsis didn't have a good game. Pitt went maximum protection and put just two or even one guy in routes, and Rapesburger had the time to make the pass. I think shanny decided that Jake had taken him as far as Jake was capable of doing. And in an earlier year, his QB (ferrote) couldn't pull the rock down and hoof it for a first down against Balt. So, Shanny got Jake.

Coming out of Vandy, Cutler was as good as Eli was out of Ole Miss. Jeff Fisher and Shanny talked, and Fisher would've been happy to take Cutler or Young. I think shanny can build an offense anywhere.

But somehow, he came across these guys in two years.

PLAYERS SHANNY BROUGHT IN: Stinky, Thompson, TD, Craver, Lodish, Perry, A.Williams, Romo, Mobley, Lionel Washington and Braxton.

That's SEVEN defensive starters. And to get the first Lombardi he got Traylor and N. Smith and replaced washington with darrien Gordon. That's really NINE defensive starters and EIGHT from Free Agency. The Saints have sort of done a similar makeover, but not really that drastic with such players. N. Smith and Romo actually sniff the HOF, and Traylor had a fine career. It may be that teams really can't do that anymore. I don't really know.

It's seven defensive starters, but partially out of necessity. Like I said before he had to replace the guys leaving and account for the scheme change. It's nice that some of the pieces worked out. At the same time he tried to recapture that magic for the rest of his career. Specifically the filling out the defense with a couple soild back ups from other teams and aging/injured dline stars. (Gardner, Sam Adams, Lionel Dalton, Browncos). McD is doing the same thing right now, I hope he realizes it takes more than that.

That said, Shanny started out gangbusters, every part of his plan worked, and we all celebrate that. Over time his plans didn't work as well. I'm kinda hoping McD is the opposite, has struggles early and has to adapt. If he does adapt he will be a better coach for it.

CEH
11-02-2010, 02:13 PM
LONDON If Josh McDaniels were running for office in Colorado today, he couldn't get elected dog catcher, cat chaser or even rat pursuer.

There is one vote he certainly won't get.

The dreaded vote of confidence.

The bosses of the Broncos' head coach owner Pat Bowlen and COO Joe Ellis are not talking in flowery phrases about McDaniels' job security. In fact, the two are not talking at all publicly.

Both were witnesses here to the Broncos' fourth consecutive defeat this one to arguably the NFL's second-worst team and the one the week before was arguably the worst loss at home in team history.

Neither stepped up on the speaker's stand at Hyde Park on Monday morning and misquoted Shakespeare: "Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown, and the body that wears the hoodie."

Instead, Bowlen stood quietly on the sideline at the end of the loss Sunday night and did not talk to the media afterward. He has medical issues, and is maintaining a much lower profile (read: no profile at all) this season. He last gave an interview with The Post's Mike Klis at the Pro Bowl.

Ellis, who is running the Broncos' daily business operations (thus, the title chief operating officer), has chosen, somewhat reluctantly, not to address the McDaniels Matter on the record.

But it is known that Bowlen and Ellis continue to support their second-year coach (who has a four-year contract) despite his approval rating with Broncos loyalists dropping to its lowest level yet. Lower, it can be suggested, than at least one man who is running for a major political office in Colorado.

McD has not been popular almost from the day of his hiring, Jan. 12, 2009. When hired he was considered by many too young, too inexperienced, too brash and too, too New England Patriotish. He and quarterback Jay Cutler had a "misunderstanding," and Cutler ended up gone. Then, there was a dismantling of Mike Shana- han's staff and offensive system.

A 6-0 start in McDaniels' first season gave the coach his highest trust factor. A 2-8 finish with losses at home to division teams San Diego, Oakland and Kansas City, and no playoff berth destroyed that feel-better relationship with the faithful fans, the cynical media and the casual followers.

McDaniels got rid of Brandon Marshall, Tony Scheffler and Peyton Hillis, among others, and two remaining longtime assistants from the previous regime, running backs coach Bobby Turner and offensive line coach Rick Dennison, left. Some of the Broncos' most serious problems this season the running game, the offensive line and the lack of receiving production at tight end are directly attributable to changes McDaniels made.

His selection of Tim Tebow in the first round of this year's draft became a polarizing issue. Trading for defensive back Alphonso Smith (acquired for a No. 1 pick last year), then giving up on him, combined with a lack of improvement from last year's other top choices (especially Knowshon Moreno and Richard Quinn) and a stream of injuries have contributed to the rise of the fans' anger.

Bottom line, a 4-14 record from bye week 2009 to bye week 2010 has been the most serious cause of McDaniels' fall from grace with the sea of orange and blue.

McDaniels is about as unpopular as King John was in England 800 years ago. But there will be no Broncos Magna Carta.

SUBMIT YOUR QUESTION

Post sports columnist Woody Paige fields your questions. Look for Woody's Mailbag on Thursdays.

Bowlen and Ellis have the only votes that count and they will not fire McDaniels now, nor at the end of this season and not before the conclusion of the 2011 season . . . unless.

Bowlen and Ellis hired McDaniels, and do not wish to be embarrassed by admitting they made a mistake. The team still owes Shanahan half his annual $7 million salary for this season and next. The Broncos' double-headed leaders never will pay three head coaches at the same time.

And B&E, and their advisers, still sincerely believe in McDaniels. They feel he has improved as an off- field manager over last year. They believe he picked superior players in the draft this year, utilized the salary cap funds (and free-agent expenditures) more wisely than Shanahan and has upgraded the overall franchise despite the poor on-field results. And they think, as McDaniels does, this season can be turned around and next season will be fruitful.

In spite of the hue, and the cry, of the masses, McDaniels will not be overthrown or axed like a dreadful English king, unless the commoners stop coming. And that won't happen.

But, as McDaniels departed the United Kingdom on Monday morning, he wore the crown uneasy.

Good thing for McD Coloradans can't cast their vote for coach today.

Woody Paige: 303-954-1095 or wpaige@denverpost.com

All speculation at this point.

Bowlen and or Ellis have final say. They aren't saying much in fact Shefter said the other day the pp lhe has talked to that says money is an issue was not Pat Bowlen or Joe Ellis

I don't think Josh will be fired but until I hear it directly for Bowlen or Ellis anything is still possible

Rohirrim
11-02-2010, 02:15 PM
It's seven defensive starters, but partially out of necessity. Like I said before he had to replace the guys leaving and account for the scheme change. It's nice that some of the pieces worked out. At the same time he tried to recapture that magic for the rest of his career. Specifically the filling out the defense with a couple soild back ups from other teams and aging/injured dline stars. (Gardner, Sam Adams, Lionel Dalton, Browncos). McD is doing the same thing right now, I hope he realizes it takes more than that.

That said, Shanny started out gangbusters, every part of his plan worked, and we all celebrate that. Over time his plans didn't work as well. I'm kinda hoping McD is the opposite, has struggles early and has to adapt. If he does adapt he will be a better coach for it.

He's definitely getting tested under live fire now. We'll see how he comes out of it. I still say, this upcoming Chiefs game is the biggest game Josh will coach in his life so far.

baja
11-02-2010, 02:20 PM
He's definitely getting tested under live fire now. We'll see how he comes out of it. I still say, this upcoming Chiefs game is the biggest game Josh will coach in his life so far.

If it's anything like the Raiders game he will be hard pressed to make it here. I still think he will be a good to great HC someday. Hope it's here.

Rohirrim
11-02-2010, 02:25 PM
If it's anything like the Raiders game he will be hard pressed to make it here. I still think he will be a good to great HC someday. Hope it's here.

If after a bye week, this team craps on the field the way they did against the Raiders, there will be a procession of torches headed for Dove Valley. And I might be marching with them.

http://scvtalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/simpsons_torch_mob.jpg

2KBack
11-02-2010, 02:28 PM
I agree with you both. Those kinds of epic demolishings are not to be tolerated. I'll take beating ourselves sometimes as the team grows, but not absolute embarrass like that.

baja
11-02-2010, 02:30 PM
In today's world it won't be a half of a loaf of bread that fans toss on his lawn.

Hamrob
11-02-2010, 02:43 PM
First off, I don't think you can compare McD to Shanny. Shanahan has been doing this for alot longer and has won 2 Superbowls as a headcoach. Frankly, there isn't anything to compare between the two.

Speaking solely about McD, the surprising thing to me...is just how poorly his offense has been. Strictly a one dimensional attack. The offensive line and running game have been beyond poor. I think it really shows where McD's talent is...the passing game and the passing game alone. That's fine, but it doesn't cut it as a headcoach.

He's got a long ways to go...and quite frankly he needs more experience in all facets of the game. Do we really want him to get that experience at our expense? I don't.

I knew he was unprepared when we took a guy off the scrap heap and made him a starter on our defense. Then followed that up with another. We had all off season to address such issues...and that's the best we can do. Wow.

bronclvr
11-02-2010, 02:45 PM
Imagine a team with Shanahan running the offense and LeBeau running the defense... Yikes!

Wow, you just gave me a Tebowner-

Hulamau
11-02-2010, 02:52 PM
I have a hard time assessing Shanahan's tenure in Denver. He was always a great game day coach. But you have to take into account the Elway Factor. Elway took Reeves' coached teams to three SBs. That was an amazing accomplishment. I remember many games that you could really argue Elway won on his own in the fourth quarter. Then, there was the luckiest sixth round draft pick in team history, TD (which, BTW, Shanahan admits was pure luck). Shanahan definitely was in the right place at the right time and he didn't screw the pooch when the stars aligned for him. But his post-Elway years tarnish the Mastermind title, IMHO.

Thats a fair assessment Rohirrim. Shanny was/is a good coach, less so the whole enchilada. His major glory was on the back of Steve Young and an elite 49er squad and the last half of 90s Broncos where the stars did align and with the help of the some slight of hand GM work to bend the caps rules and get some stud lineman in that techically were deamed illegal later, Shanny greatly benefited from a perfect storm in his favor of a stacked roster making a complete team with Elway and Davis at their peak.

Shanny certainly deserves a lot of credit for helping to assemble that team and coaching them on game day to victory, but it was Fox or whatever his name was (forget at the moment) who later GMed at Green bay, who really helped put together those SB season squads.

Shanny did not have total power at that time. Once he got total power and ELway and Davis left the scene it was more or less one step above mediocre for a decade. with the exception of 2005.

Anyway, kudos to Shanny for bringing the trophies here and all his efforts in Denver ... But it was time for him to recharge and restart somewhere else, regardless of how Josh's tenure plays out.

Hulamau
11-02-2010, 03:01 PM
Wade was fired because Shanahan was ready.....he was always a seat warmer.

Exactlamento!

bendog
11-02-2010, 03:11 PM
[QUOTE=Hamrob;2993481]First off, I don't think you can compare McD to Shanny. Shanahan has been doing this for alot longer and has won 2 Superbowls as a headcoach. Frankly, there isn't anything to compare between the two.

The only pt I tried to make was that it's bs to try and say Shanny didn't have to do a roster make over in two years. He swapped out the majority of starters in two years and nine guys on defense in three years. The team he left was second in yds gained and was running for nearly 100 yds per game more than this team. He had 11 players with 2 or fewer years experience, and that included clady, royals and BM. McDaniel's roster this year has the same number of young guys. If the last two games and those facts don't indicate that the bull**** Xanders tried to spin on "cutting all the deadwood off shanny's team" was desperate spinning to keep people from looking at the trainwreck happening .... people are blind. I didn't begin the comparison between shanny and mcdaniels; I said it was bull****.

Still, McDaniels didn't inherit a HOF QB. he's going to get two more drafts, and Bowlen won't pay three coaches. So, there's no reason McDaniels can't swap out at least ten starters with guys not even on the roster, and maybe some of the guys he added to the roster will turn out ok. Coaches typcally get three years before the knives come out.

I think I'll go to a bar to see the KC game. It may be epic.

bendog
11-02-2010, 03:12 PM
Exactlamento!

unless he won games. Wade brought in free agents and made trades, but it didn't work out.

2KBack
11-02-2010, 04:10 PM
unless he won games. Wade brought in free agents and made trades, but it didn't work out.

he may have backed in, but Denver did make the playoffs in Phillips first season.

FireFly
11-02-2010, 04:18 PM
I'd keep McDaniels for next year at least, give him a chance to have a shot with a team that isn't severely compromised by injuries before the start of the season.

I think there's a good coach in him there somewhere, so I'd rather we didn't just give up on him even if this season has gone horribly.

We need to be a good team in 2011 or he's gone though, no two ways about it.

This is pretty much how I feel about it. He's torn this team down too much in order to build it up again his way. I like the way he set out about building it, I honestly think we will be a GOOD team in 2011.

Another coach would probably want to do away with a lot of what McDaniels has tried to do and we'd be starting again. I hope we give him 2011 to get us to the play offs.

colonelbeef
11-02-2010, 05:10 PM
Because people try to turn Shanny into a flawless God and McD into a hapless fool. Reason enough?

Stop putting them in the same sentence.

One is a proven HOF head coach with multiple Super Bowl wins and team records up and down his resume.

The other is just another former pats coordinator in the midst of a massive failure.

Compare McDaniels to Rex Ryan, Steve Spagnulo, John Harbaugh, Tony Sparano, and Raheem Morris, not to Hall of Fame super bowl winners. Thx.

fontaine
11-02-2010, 05:13 PM
This is pretty much how I feel about it. He's torn this team down too much in order to build it up again his way. I like the way he set out about building it, I honestly think we will be a GOOD team in 2011.

Another coach would probably want to do away with a lot of what McDaniels has tried to do and we'd be starting again. I hope we give him 2011 to get us to the play offs.

- We've got one of the worst defenses in the league.
- We've got the single worst running game in almost a DECADE.
- We're also one of the worst ST.
- Our OL is ranked 29th in the one area it's supposed to be good at: The power game.

The only thing that works is Orton to Lloyd at that really only works in the hurry up offense.

At this point in time, there really isn't anything in the team left to "do away" with.

http://lennyfromindy.mywnde.com/files/2009/10/mcdaniels.jpg

baja
11-02-2010, 05:13 PM
Stop putting them in the same sentence.

One is a proven HOF head coach with multiple Super Bowl wins and team records up and down his resume.

The other is just another former pats coordinator in the midst of a massive failure.

Compare McDaniels to Rex Ryan, Steve Spagnulo, John Harbaugh, Tony Sparano, and Raheem Morris, not to Hall of Fame super bowl winners. Thx.

When you don't even understand the post there is not much I can say to help you.

fontaine
11-02-2010, 05:18 PM
I'm not calling for Josh to be fired right now.

At this point in time nothing is going to right the wrongs on this team. That'll have to wait till offseason.

But, please, let's be honest and stop pretending that somehow it's going to get worse if a new coach takes over in the offseason because he's going to do away with the worst running game, OL, DL, ST, run defense in the league.

colonelbeef
11-02-2010, 05:21 PM
unless he won games. Wade brought in free agents and made trades, but it didn't work out.

Exactly. If he had taken the job and run with it, there never would have been an issue.

WABronco
11-02-2010, 05:46 PM
I had a random scary thought while showering the other day.

Now I know Jacksonville has been no great shakes lately, but Jack Del Rio has a 57-55 record with several playoff appearances in his tenure...and they're one of the worst org's in the league and have been TERRIBLE in the draft and I can't think of any good FA acquisitions. **** me.

Bob's your Information Minister
11-03-2010, 03:59 AM
If we can give Herm Edwards three years, you guys can give McDaniels three years.

Bob's your Information Minister
11-03-2010, 04:16 AM
And what is exactly is "Bronco football" all about?

Based on the last five years...missing the playoffs.

missingnumber7
11-03-2010, 12:25 PM
wade brought in free agents and made trades, but it didn't work out.

hey this sounds oddly familiar.

Ray Finkle
11-03-2010, 12:34 PM
unless he won games. Wade brought in free agents and made trades, but it didn't work out.

Wade's the one that brought in Zimmerman and Miller....he missed on Pritchard but he was good at dealing.

bloodsunday
11-04-2010, 02:42 PM
Agree, Pseudo.

We hired a young coach to clean up a very big mess. Clearly, there are going to be speed-bumps and clearly this is going to take time.

This season has sucked. It started with injuries and just got worse from there.
But, I'm willing to ride out a rough season or two if it means building a real foundation for the future instead of a turnstile for mediocre players and subpar results.

Now, thus far... the jury is out on what kind of foundation McD has built. Haters see nothing, while others see improvements. Overall, I think you're correct in that it's just too early to start making definitive judgments.

People on message boards need instant gratification, and they haven't gotten it with McDaniels. So, they want to run him out of town after 1.5 seasons. But, as I've been saying... Bowlen and Co. are going to be more patient with this situation. They know he's young, and they know how hard it is to build a champion.

By the end of next season, if we're floundering like we are now... I'm sure Bowlen will see this differently. But, hopefully we won't be. Hopefully we're able to get healthy and add a few crucial pieces to get us to a truly competitive state.

Popps, this is a balanced and solid point of view. In general I agree with the sentiment you put forward. My biggest issues with this whole situation are:

1) Why did we go and just take total control from a veteran coach and give (seemingly) the exact same control to a guy that's never had any of it? I just think this whole thing would have been smarter if we hired Josh to be the "head coach", not the HC/OC/GM. (Admittedly this isn't Josh's fault and can be fixed without firing him)

2) We are doing all the same stuff that I hated about Shanahan teams: poor red zone offense, despicable defense, fading down the stretch, atrocious special teams, very questionable drafts, and finding ways to beat ourselves seemingly every week. If we had improved in at least one or two of those areas, I'd be more optimistic. For example, it's not impossible to fix your special teams in 1 or 2 seasons, yet we continue to act like they aren't one third the game of football. The one thing that McDaniels can hang his hat on is that we are now a more fiscally responsible team.

3) With the labor turmoil facing the NFL, having a solid foundation is an even more premium in my opinion. We have the oldest defense in the NFL, what's going to happen if we take a year off of football to work out labor issues? We'll come back with guys like Dawkins, Jamaal Williams, etc... suddenly too old to play. It'll be like the Avs when they came back from labor issues and the cupboard was totally bare. They still haven't totally recovered.

bloodsunday
11-04-2010, 02:50 PM
one it is easier to ID the player you need when the system has been in place for decades. Eason bounced around for years before being a part time starter.

McClain was drafted before Denver had a chance. I am sorry but moving up to draft a center in the first is not a wise thing. How many stellar centers in the past 10 years were drafted in the first (besides Mangold)?

How do you know that after his first year, Walton won't be a good center for the next 8 years?

Again, you are rationalizing individual picks, which is an easy thing to do. My point is that over the long haul successful teams do the following:

1) Build around a system (which we have continually changed the past 10 years, particularly on defense)

2) In general (not always), build from the line of scrimmage out. Shanahan ignored the OL and DL in the draft for far too many years and constantly relied on costly FA. Thus far we have done largely the same thing under McDaniels, with the exception of Beadles and Walton this year. I include linebackers in this (particularly in the 3 - 4) because they get hurt, you play 4 at a time, and they are the core of your special teams. We continue to draft skill position players when we are just getting creamed at the line of scrimmage week after week.

3) Ignore public opinion about their draft picks. I cannot say for sure if Tebow and Thomas were a reaction to losing Marshall and Cutler, but I do find it an odd coincidence that they followed so closely.

McDaniels has only had 2 drafts, but so far I just don't see the kind of change I was hoping for. We have the oldest defense in the NFL.

Rausch 2.0
11-04-2010, 02:53 PM
Eh, you guys should fire his azz.

Really.

On a side note: why is it I can't create threads?....

Rabb
11-04-2010, 03:17 PM
Eh, you guys should fire his azz.

Really.

On a side note: why is it I can't create threads?....

there's a dbag prevention system TJ just put in

seems to be working