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TheReverend
11-01-2010, 12:34 PM
Here's what I'd like to see happen with the Broncos.

1. Hire Schottenheimer YESTERDAY. Not to coach. As an analyst/consultant. He has the entire bye week to study the team and start diagnosing where the major problems lie (personnel, coaching, execution, etc) from the scout team all the way up to Joe Ellis.

2. Put Timmy in with the ones. He gets an extra week of preparation and we either get a half a season head start on his development, or we get eight weeks of game film that say "This isn't our guy".

3. Those of you concern we lose the team with #2 should re-examine #1. #1 should show everyone they're playing for their jobs, and if that isn't enough of an incentive, we shouldn't want "professionals" like that on the Denver Broncos ball club.

Popps
11-01-2010, 12:38 PM
1. Love it.

2. Please.

3. You don't show people that they're fighting for their jobs by benching the one player who's played well, been a leader and done exactly what has been asked of him.

Popps
11-01-2010, 12:39 PM
You should add...

4. Bench Champ Bailey - He's getting older and we're losing this year anyway. Might as well develop Cox. No reason for him to be in the lineup.

jhns
11-01-2010, 12:39 PM
First thing he needs to do is hire me as a consultant so that I can hang around Dove Valley all day. Then he needs to fire whoever told him I was a good choice as a consultant.

TheReverend
11-01-2010, 12:39 PM
1. Love it.

2. Please.

3. You don't show people that they're fighting for their jobs by benching the one player who's played well, been a leader and done exactly what has been asked of him.

I thought he was asked to win games not fumble that chance away against one of the worst teams in the NFL and end the chances for overtime on an interception?

baja
11-01-2010, 12:40 PM
All I want is for Bowlen to give a presser for the Bronco fans giving a SOTU of the Broncos.

Eldorado
11-01-2010, 12:42 PM
Here's what I'd like to see happen with the Broncos.

1. Hire Schottenheimer YESTERDAY. Not to coach. As an analyst/consultant. He has the entire bye week to study the team and start diagnosing where the major problems lie (personnel, coaching, execution, etc) from the scout team all the way up to Joe Ellis.

2. Put Timmy in with the ones. He gets an extra week of preparation and we either get a half a season head start on his development, or we get eight weeks of game film that say "This isn't our guy".

3. Those of you concern we lose the team with #2 should re-examine #1. #1 should show everyone they're playing for their jobs, and if that isn't enough of an incentive, we shouldn't want "professionals" like that on the Denver Broncos ball club.

Without the Baltimore and Raiders games on the resume I would tell you to **** off, grow a pair and quit panicking. As it is.....

Still we are only 3 games back. When does Ayers return?

SouthStndJunkie
11-01-2010, 12:42 PM
All I want is for Bowlen to give a presser for the Bronco fans giving a SOTU of the Broncos.

State of the Union address for the Broncos?

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Popps
11-01-2010, 12:43 PM
I thought he was asked to win games not fumble that chance away against one of the worst teams in the NFL and end the chances for overtime on an interception?

Maybe guys need support to win games? Maybe bench the entire defense for a week?

Again, you're advocating removing a top performer for our team for a guy who's never thrown an NFL pass, and many think he's not even cut out for the position as a pro. (I'm not one of them.)

Crazier things have happened, but it's a pretty lame idea. It's based in no sort of foresight. It's a pure panic reaction, and those are almost always a major fail.

Rabb
11-01-2010, 12:44 PM
Does anyone really think having Ayers and dare I say Doom on this team right now would solve any of our offensive ineptitude?

I am being serious also...I know it would help the defense, but only aspects of that as well

I just hear a lot of "if we only had *insert player* back..." and don't fully buy into it

✡✡ JOSHUA ✡✡
11-01-2010, 12:45 PM
1. Extend McDaniels' contract through the 2020 season so every player, coach, executive and staffer knows who is clearly in charge.

TheReverend
11-01-2010, 12:46 PM
Maybe guys need support to win games? Maybe bench the entire defense for a week?

Again, you're advocating removing a top performer for our team for a guy who's never thrown an NFL pass, and many think he's not even cut out for the position as a pro. (I'm not one of them.)

Crazier things have happened, but it's a pretty lame idea. It's based in no sort of foresight. It's a pure panic reaction, and those are almost always a major fail.

You're such an amoeba. Just last year Orton was awesome because "He just wins games guys" and Cutler sucked because he had a losing record.

Now the circumstances are the exact opposite and your argument has become the exact opposite.

Which is it, Popps?

Popps
11-01-2010, 12:46 PM
Does anyone really think having Ayers and dare I say Doom on this team right now would solve any of our offensive ineptitude?

I am being serious also

I think it couldn't hurt.

Field position and game situations are influenced greatly by what your defense does for you.

I'm not sure we're putting Orton in a position to have to make miracle come-backs in pass-only situations all the time if we could simply close out a game with our defense.

Look at the Jets PI play. Sanchez had ALL MOTHER****ING DAY to loop that hail mary up there and get the call. Any kind of pass-rush would have made a huge difference on that play, and likely that game.

✡✡ JOSHUA ✡✡
11-01-2010, 12:46 PM
Does anyone really think having Ayers and dare I say Doom on this team right now would solve any of our offensive ineptitude?

I am being serious also

Having no pass rushers is not yielding the turnovers and game-changing defensive plays which is leading to piss poor field position.

tsiguy96
11-01-2010, 12:48 PM
cant bench orton, he is not flawless but hes playing good football. you dont bench a good starter just to find out if his backup is any good, the backup needs to EARN the job.

Popps
11-01-2010, 12:48 PM
You're such an amoeba. Just last year Orton was awesome because "He just wins games guys" and Cutler sucked because he had a losing record.


NO, NO.. brother... Cutler sucks just because he sucks. See, he pisses away games in the first quarter, and keeps pissing them away the whole game.

You got all confused there, didn't you?


Orton has been a winner, but no QB can do it all by himself. If a defense can't ever hold a lead... you're going to need Elway behind center, and we don't have that anymore.

Anyway, 1 of your 3 ideas was good.

Revise the thread and add the "bench Champ" option. I mean, our defense sucks. Champ is losing games for us out there.

Rabb
11-01-2010, 12:49 PM
Well yeah I get that, but is our defense really at the point that we all feel we are one guy away from being a Ravens type D where the offense can limp along and we still win?

I am not trying to be a negative prick here, I love Ayers and thought he looked great when he was in...but I don't think Doom would fix all of our problems as much as I would like him to.

Eldorado
11-01-2010, 12:49 PM
Does anyone really think having Ayers and dare I say Doom on this team right now would solve any of our offensive ineptitude?

I am being serious also

I absolutely think having Ayers and Doom in the line up dramatically changes the effectiveness of this defense. Doom is an excellent pass rusher and Ayers is a perfect compliment to Doom.

That said, your point is taken. The O-line is in shambles.

TheReverend
11-01-2010, 12:50 PM
NO, NO.. brother... Cutler sucks just because he sucks. See, he pisses away games in the first quarter, and keeps pissing them away the whole game.

You got all confused there, didn't you?


Orton has been a winner, but no QB can do it all by himself. If a defense can't ever hold a lead... you're going to need Elway behind center, and we don't have that anymore.

Anyway, 1 of your 3 ideas was good.

Revise the thread and add the "bench Champ" option. I mean, our defense sucks. Champ is losing games for us out there.

You become more of a pale imitation of your old self with each passing week. It's really quite sad. I'd love for 2005 Popps to come back.

PRBronco
11-01-2010, 12:51 PM
Does anyone really think having Ayers and dare I say Doom on this team right now would solve any of our offensive ineptitude?

I am being serious also...I know it would help the defense, but only aspects of that as well

I just hear a lot of "if we only had *insert player* back..." and don't fully buy into it

It would help. The play calling would be less desperate in the second half and they wouldn't give up on the running game so quickly.

Popps
11-01-2010, 12:53 PM
You become more of a pale imitation of your old self with each passing week. It's really quite sad. I'd love for 2005 Popps to come back.

Sticks and stones. You always get personal when you paint yourself into a corner.

I'm happy to stay on topic, if you want. But, if you want to do your 'nanny-boo boo" stuff, you can play with someone else.

Rabb
11-01-2010, 12:53 PM
It would help. The play calling would be less desperate in the second half and they wouldn't give up on the running game so quickly.

man I really hope so, and hope there is a 2011 season to see it

I really look at the group of young guys we have and it is exciting

TheReverend
11-01-2010, 12:57 PM
It would help. The play calling would be less desperate in the second half and they wouldn't give up on the running game so quickly.

I disagree about the play calling portion. This just seems to be what Josh wants to do. Yesterday for example:

10-10 in the 4th quarter after holding them to 3 points for over 3 quarters we call pass, gimmick Tebow run and pass. Naturally we punt and they score again. Immediately call another pass despite 7.5 minutes to go and KO fumbles it.

TheReverend
11-01-2010, 12:58 PM
Sticks and stones. You always get personal when you paint yourself into a corner.

I'm happy to stay on topic, if you want. But, if you want to do your 'nanny-boo boo" stuff, you can play with someone else.

I have zero desire to let you derail yet another football discussion, so I'll just leave your ridiculous comparison with this:

1. Champ isn't part of the problem, and he is part of the solution.

2. True Kyle isn't a big part of the problem, but he's certainly not part of the solution.

TheProfessor
11-01-2010, 12:59 PM
at this point Tebow is nothing more than an classic option QB, for some reason McDaniels has absolutely no faith in him to throw the ball.

Orton finishes the season.

Kaylore
11-01-2010, 01:00 PM
This might work. Really I have no idea because I'm out of answers. I thought they did a good job of building up the offensive line. The entire units play has imploded quite completely. Is it coaching? Conditioning? It can't be all the players because we've seen them play well. The defense is playing like a unit that has no confidence. The entire team is mentally soft. As soon as they face adversity they give up. They're trying, and are often in decent positions, but they aren't making plays. Most of all, they make really really stupid mistakes at the absolute worst times. Fumbles, PI, chop blocks, etc. It's like they time them to be the most devastating.

I have no answers. I've lost all faith in the coaching staff and the players. I'm not sure where to go from here. I don't believe they know and I think Josh is in over his head. The good news if they lose out, and they will be lucky to win 2 more games the rest of the year, we'll get a top five pick. Hopefully by then we'll have hired a new GM, coach or both. I'm not one who thinks Bowlen "absolutely won't fire McDaniels" at the end of the year. He would still be paying the same amount per year had Shanahan not been hired by a team and a having a lame-duck coach with no extension coaching for his job in his final year isn't usually a recipe for success.

Anyway, we'll see. I got no answers. This team is a disaster and I don't know if it can be cleaned up.

I will say at least we get a good draft pick, and maybe this will make for slightly less spoiled fans on the game day. Years of winning has made the fan base soft and now the truly hard core will be going to games.

Rascal
11-01-2010, 01:04 PM
Talk to me about starting Tebow once he completes a pass in the regular season.

I have no problem hiring Marty.

go_broncos
11-01-2010, 01:05 PM
man I really hope so, and hope there is a 2011 season to see it

I really look at the group of young guys we have and it is exciting

It is a lame excuse given by Mcd lovers.
Doom played last season too and we still lost 8 games out of 10.
He was ineffective during the later part of last year.

Mcd is supposed to be offensive genius.
Our offense became worse after he became our coach.
We can't run the ball, 12 or 9 men on the field every game,
penalties on every drive.

Most of the team has injuries..I would have been happy if we are showing decent effort.
SF started their 3rd string QB..they can easily play injury excuse.
We couldn't even stop him. Also, we scored 0 points in the 1st half.
This will not win games.

supermanhr9
11-01-2010, 01:10 PM
Here's what I'd like to see happen with the Broncos.

1. Hire Schottenheimer YESTERDAY. Not to coach. As an analyst/consultant. He has the entire bye week to study the team and start diagnosing where the major problems lie (personnel, coaching, execution, etc) from the scout team all the way up to Joe Ellis.

2. Put Timmy in with the ones. He gets an extra week of preparation and we either get a half a season head start on his development, or we get eight weeks of game film that say "This isn't our guy".

3. Those of you concern we lose the team with #2 should re-examine #1. #1 should show everyone they're playing for their jobs, and if that isn't enough of an incentive, we shouldn't want "professionals" like that on the Denver Broncos ball club.

well done sir,,, well done

Popps
11-01-2010, 01:11 PM
I will say at least we get a good draft pick, and maybe this will make for slightly less spoiled fans on the game day. Years of winning has made the fan base soft and now the truly hard core will be going to games.

Very true.

Popps
11-01-2010, 01:14 PM
I have zero desire to let you derail yet another football discussion.

Really? That's why you insist on calling me names? That's football talk?

Pull it together, man. We can talk football when you get out of nanny-nanny-boo-boo mode.


1. Champ isn't part of the problem, and he is part of the solution.

2. True Kyle isn't a big part of the problem, but he's certainly not part of the solution.

1. Of course.

2. So, when we went 6-0 with a much less developed Kyle Orton. Was he part of the solution, then?


Beyond that, what proof do you have that Orton can't be a winner with people doing their jobs around him?

See, I have proof. He's been a winner in those conditions.

Do you have proof that going forward, he can't be?

Do you have proof that Tebow IS part of the solution?

You act as if the burden of proof here is on me. You're the one calling for radical measures and benching one of our best performers.

TheReverend
11-01-2010, 01:17 PM
Really? That's why you insist on calling me names? That's football talk?

Pull it together, man. We can talk football when you get out of nanny-nanny-boo-boo mode.

1. Of course.

2. So, when we went 6-0 with a much less developed Kyle Orton. Was he part of the solution, then?


Beyond that, what proof do you have that Orton can't be a winner with people doing their jobs around him?

See, I have proof. He's been a winner in those conditions.

Do you have proof that going forward, he can't be?

Do you have proof that Tebow IS part of the solution?

You act as if the burden of proof here is on me. You're the one calling for radical measures and benching one of our best performers.

The burden of proof is on me? ROFL! We're 2-6 in our ACTUAL circumstances. Not make believing it's the start of 2009 again. Radical measures look pretty good to any sane fan after getting 59 hung up on us by the OAKLAND RAIDERS at HOME in only THREE QUARTERS.

Simply put: If Tebow ISN'T part of the solution, Denver just made a monster blunder on draft day.

jhns
11-01-2010, 01:21 PM
Beyond that, what proof do you have that Orton can't be a winner with people doing their jobs around him?

See, I have proof. He's been a winner in those conditions.


LOL

So lame. Every QB in this league can be a winner under the conditions that you are laying out. The only year Orton has ever had a winning record was a year in which he threw for about 213 total yards.

"Kyle just needs the perfect team around him and he can be great!"

Cito Pelon
11-01-2010, 01:22 PM
Here's what I'd like to see happen with the Broncos.

1. Hire Schottenheimer YESTERDAY. Not to coach. As an analyst/consultant. He has the entire bye week to study the team and start diagnosing where the major problems lie (personnel, coaching, execution, etc) from the scout team all the way up to Joe Ellis.

2. Put Timmy in with the ones. He gets an extra week of preparation and we either get a half a season head start on his development, or we get eight weeks of game film that say "This isn't our guy".

3. Those of you concern we lose the team with #2 should re-examine #1. #1 should show everyone they're playing for their jobs, and if that isn't enough of an incentive, we shouldn't want "professionals" like that on the Denver Broncos ball club.

1. This is just pure panic, Rev. McXanderEllis are gonna have to sink or swim on their own. Come hell or high water, McXanderEllis is what we have, and McXanderEllis is gonna be in charge for this season. I don't see how changing horses in midstream is gonna be beneficial at all.

2. I don't see how that will be beneficial. If you see it as beneficial, that's fine with me. I can argue it either way, but a move like that is basically throwing in the towel on the season.

3. I see your point, but I'm skeptical.

TheReverend
11-01-2010, 01:23 PM
1. This is just pure panic, Rev. McXanderEllis are gonna have to sink or swim on their own. Come hell or high water, McXanderEllis is what we have, and McXanderEllis is gonna be in charge for this season. I don't see how changing horses in midstream is gonna be beneficial at all.

2. I don't see how that will be beneficial. If you see it as beneficial, that's fine with me. I can argue it either way, but a move like that is basically throwing in the towel on the season.

3. I see your point, but I'm skeptical.

???

#1 isn't changing horses... he's not coaching... he's not the GM. He's simply there to evaluate everyone.

Popps
11-01-2010, 01:24 PM
The burden of proof is on me? ROFL! We're 2-6 in our ACTUAL circumstances. .

Correct, but that doesn't remotely imply that your solution is correct.

If my house is on fire, one option is to try to put it out with gasoline. I mean, it's a liquid. The fire constitutes a disaster. I have to do something, right?

A bad situation does not automatically mean any sort of panic measure is the correct response.

Radical measures look pretty good to any sane fan after getting 59 hung up on us by the OAKLAND RAIDERS at HOME in only THREE QUARTERS.
.

That was indeed the worst game I can remember as a fan.

However, this past game wasn't nearly as bad. It sucked, but we had the game and let it get away. So, without benching Champ Bailey and Kyle Orton... we managed to improve our results without nonsensical measures.



Simply put: If Tebow ISN'T part of the solution, Denver just made a monster blunder on draft day.

Well, that does get into an interesting area.

But, let's remember... when we drafted Tebow, Orton had just come off of a rough 2nd half of the season, as did the whole team. Once McD saw him in camp and pre-season, he extended him. After his start this year, the odds would increase (I assume) that McDaniels has even more respect for Kyle's play.

So, while Tebow may indeed be part of a solution longer-term, and a great weapon for our offense to use now... I wouldn't say that having two capable QBs on the roster would be a "problem" for any NFL team.

Rock Chalk
11-01-2010, 01:31 PM
I thought he was asked to win games not fumble that chance away against one of the worst teams in the NFL and end the chances for overtime on an interception?

When Orton dove 3 yards short of the First down on a scramble run, everyone said "He could have got more yards the pussy!"

When he was trying for more yards, bad things happened and its his fault.

Dude cant win with you guys.

Im pretty sure Orton, the QB, didn't realize guy was chasing from behind when he got the ball stripped.

But its whatever.

throw tebow in, let's just forfeit the rest of this season and next now.

baja
11-01-2010, 01:35 PM
What should Bowlen do?

Adress the Bronco faithful as to what's going on with the franchise that seems in disarray.

Rohirrim
11-01-2010, 01:39 PM
Here's what I would do if I was Bowlen. I would let the season play out. If the debacle continues, there is no improvement, and we lose our remaining AFCW games, I would say goodbye to McDaniels and everybody else. Clean house. Then, I hire Tony Dungy as the GM and let him build his own talent evaluation team. Then I hire Mike Nolan as head coach and let him build his team. Then I have Dungy evaluate Tebow as opposed to Andrew Luck. If he feels Tebow is the real deal, I go with that. If he doesn't, I trade Tebow for what I can get and do what it takes to draft Luck. Then, we start the build.

Dr. Broncenstein
11-01-2010, 01:42 PM
We have to find a way to get a return on the investment in Tebow this year. I simply do not understand the current strategy:

1. Publicly lambaste the idea of using him in the red zone only to eventually use him with great success when attempted.

2. Randomly insert him in nonsensical situations with the SAME GD PLAY and no threat to pass.

How does this not compute with McTougherSmarter? We have gadget plays galore, yet nothing to routinely capitalize on the skill set of a guy who cost a first round pick. This team is going nowhere right now, so what's the risk? I don't necessarily agree with starting Tebow, but for the love of god get some production out of him starting right now.

baja
11-01-2010, 01:42 PM
If the house cleaning were to happen .....

I like the Dungy part but not the Nolan part.

NYBronco
11-01-2010, 01:49 PM
Bowlen should just sit tight and let the "Plan" play itself out.

Rohirrim
11-01-2010, 01:53 PM
If the house cleaning were to happen .....

I like the Dungy part but not the Nolan part.

I would want the 3/4 to stay in Denver. I think that's our legacy defense. Dungy would probably want a Tampa 2.

Rabb
11-01-2010, 01:54 PM
can you imagine Dungy and Tebow on the same team?

man, God would literally strike down opposing players during the game

Rabb
11-01-2010, 01:54 PM
We have to find a way to get a return on the investment in Tebow this year. I simply do not understand the current strategy:

1. Publicly lambaste the idea of using him in the red zone only to eventually use him with great success when attempted.

2. Randomly insert him in nonsensical situations with the SAME GD PLAY and no threat to pass.

How does this not compute with McTougherSmarter? We have gadget plays galore, yet nothing to routinely capitalize on the skill set of a guy who cost a first round pick. This team is going nowhere right now, so what's the risk? I don't necessarily agree with starting Tebow, but for the love of god get some production out of him starting right now.

totally agree Doc

rbackfactory80
11-01-2010, 01:54 PM
I have zero desire to let you derail yet another football discussion, so I'll just leave your ridiculous comparison with this:

1. Champ isn't part of the problem, and he is part of the solution.

2. True Kyle isn't a big part of the problem, but he's certainly not part of the solution.

This. Orton was brought in here to steer the ship with what everyone figured to be a 9ish win team. The ship has officially sunk and Orton is playing a role he just wasn't made for. Orton can play QB and not cost his team losses but in the situation we have put him in he is worthless. I say quit delaying the inevitable.

TheReverend
11-01-2010, 01:56 PM
Correct, but that doesn't remotely imply that your solution is correct.

If my house is on fire, one option is to try to put it out with gasoline. I mean, it's a liquid. The fire constitutes a disaster. I have to do something, right?

A bad situation does not automatically mean any sort of panic measure is the correct response.

No. Using your analogy it'd be like having one known liquid that's marginally effective against fire and another liquid that you spent a fortunate in R&D on but you're not sure how it'll react.

What do you do? Test the new liquid and see the results. That's exactly what I'm advocating.

That was indeed the worst game I can remember as a fan.

However, this past game wasn't nearly as bad. It sucked, but we had the game and let it get away. So, without benching Champ Bailey and Kyle Orton... we managed to improve our results without nonsensical measures.

We improved enough to lose to a ONE WIN TEAM starting their THIRD STRING QUARTERBACK. in his FIRST EVER NFL START

Well, that does get into an interesting area.

But, let's remember... when we drafted Tebow, Orton had just come off of a rough 2nd half of the season, as did the whole team. Once McD saw him in camp and pre-season, he extended him. After his start this year, the odds would increase (I assume) that McDaniels has even more respect for Kyle's play.

So, while Tebow may indeed be part of a solution longer-term, and a great weapon for our offense to use now... I wouldn't say that having two capable QBs on the roster would be a "problem" for any NFL team.

A one year extension isn't typically what front offices call a "vote of confidence"...

baja
11-01-2010, 01:58 PM
I would want the 3/4 to stay in Denver. I think that's our legacy defense. Dungy would probably want a Tampa 2.

Honestly I think Josh will come through this but I would like to see a GM like the Ravens have or the Colts. Those teams stay strong through the draft.

Kaylore
11-01-2010, 01:58 PM
My bigger fear is breeding a culture of failure. It only takes a few bad seasons to do that and it can take years to undo. We already have a well established culture of mediocrity and we're slipping very quickly into "we're the Broncos. We suck. That's who we are." mode.

Popps
11-01-2010, 02:00 PM
[QUOTE=TheReverend;2992011]No. Using your analogy it'd be like having one known liquid that's marginally effective against fire and another liquid that you spent a fortunate in R&D on but you're not sure how it'll react.

What do you do? Test the new liquid and see the results. That's exactly what I'm advocating.



We improved enough to lose to a ONE WIN TEAM starting their THIRD STRING QUARTERBACK. in his FIRST EVER NFL START





I didn't think the 9ers were that bad heading into the game. They've lost a ton of close games to decent teams. Losing to Troy Smith wasn't any fun, though.

The one year extension made sense, considering there was still some uncertainty.

To me, benching Orton for Tebow is just stealing from Peter to pay Paul. Everything you gain, you lose in the other direction.

I like the idea of continuing to work him in slowly.

elsid13
11-01-2010, 02:02 PM
Bringing anyone in to do a review/audit would cause an affront with the current head coach and would be seen as direct challenge to his power. Lets faces the facts that McDaniels just wasn't ready to be head coach, like Scott Pioli (his former boss) stated when he was hired. Unlike Bill Walsh and his coaching tree, Belichet is extremely secretive and doesn't promote open learning system which produce good Head Coaches. We are going to have to live through McDaniels growing pains and hope he figures it out.

Cito Pelon
11-01-2010, 02:06 PM
???

#1 isn't changing horses... he's not coaching... he's not the GM. He's simply there to evaluate everyone.

Yeah, well, bringing a new Daddy in is not beneficial, IMO. The current regime will have to sink or swim on their own.

Beantown Bronco
11-01-2010, 02:06 PM
A one year extension isn't typically what front offices call a "vote of confidence"...

One more than Champ got.... :poke:

rbackfactory80
11-01-2010, 02:06 PM
Bringing anyone in to do a review/audit would cause an affront with the current head coach and would be seen as direct challenge to his power. Lets faces the facts that McDaniels just wasn't ready to be head coach, like Scott Pioli (his former boss) stated when he was hired. Unlike Bill Walsh and his coaching tree, Belichet is extremely secretive and doesn't promote open learning system which produce good Head Coaches. We are going to have to live through McDaniels growing pains and hope he figures it out.

But what about the reported 5 page document Bill gave Josh? I guess he left out pages 6-50. Sad thing is Josh probably turned to Bill to ask him how he would fix the team. Bill tore this franchise apart with his bare hands.

TheReverend
11-01-2010, 02:07 PM
Yeah, well, bringing a new Daddy in is not beneficial, IMO. The current regime will have to sink or swim on their own.

No, sir. He's not daddy. He's just a football guy that can take a look at every level of operations and then give his opinion to daddy (Bowlen).

TheReverend
11-01-2010, 02:09 PM
One more than Champ got.... :poke:

I absolutely love you.

bowtown
11-01-2010, 02:09 PM
Bringing anyone in to do a review/audit would cause an affront with the current head coach and would be seen as direct challenge to his power. Lets faces the facts that McDaniels just wasn't ready to be head coach, like Scott Pioli (his former boss) stated when he was hired. Unlike Bill Walsh and his coaching tree, Belichet is extremely secretive and doesn't promote open learning system which produce good Head Coaches. We are going to have to live through McDaniels growing pains and hope he figures it out.

Still, perhaps the most important lessons McDaniels learned came in February 2008, two weeks after the Patriots' quest for an undefeated season ended with a 17-14 loss to the Giants in Super Bowl XLIII. When the coaches returned from a two-week break, Belichick called McDaniels into his office and handed him a five-page, typed report on what it takes to be an effective coach and have a winning organization.

"I had been talking to Bill for a few years about being a head coach, and after I didn't do any interviews during the bye week in the '07 playoffs he said, 'I will help you in any way I can to get you ready for all the other things that go into the job,'" McDaniels said. "Just being around him every day was going to help me from a football standpoint because I could see what he did and how he did it. But he was saying he would help me with some of the things that you won't really get a chance to witness or understand or become knowledgeable about until you're in that position.

"I remember when we first came back after our break, that very first day, that very first morning, he brought me into his office and he gave me five pages, typed, of all the topics and things that he felt like I needed to be educated about to become an effective head coach. I'm thinking to myself, here he's got 10 or 12 days where he can do whatever in the hell he wants to do -- we've just come off a season where we were 16-0 and lost in the Super Bowl -- and the very first day back he gives me this? That was kind of like my bible."

During the 2008 season, the men met for an hour here, 30 minutes there, until they had addressed every point in the report. From there McDaniels developed 60 to 65 questions of his own that he carried into job interviews with Cleveland and Denver earlier this year.

"When you say where did the questions come from, it was Bill's background," McDaniels said. "He had been a head coach in Cleveland and New England, he was a coordinator in a number of different places, and he understands the salary cap, free agency, the draft, contracts, all that stuff. He gave me as much of that information as I could possibly ask for -- and then he gave me a whole bunch of information that I never would have asked for. I wouldn't trade that experience for anything."


Yeah, sounds like Belichick was a real jerk about the whole thing.Uhh

elsid13
11-01-2010, 02:13 PM
But what about the reported 5 page document Bill gave Josh? I guess he left out pages 6-50. Sad thing is Josh probably turned to Bill to ask him how he would fix the team. Bill tore this franchise apart with his bare hands.

I think that Belicheat got lucky and found a HOF QB and had pretty good defense that he could build upon. When Shanahan went to the 49ers he learned how to build a team in Walsh method via accessing the notes, watching video tapes of the all meetings and sitting in the draft room. That exact opposite way how Belicheat and Pioli ran things in NE. There is reason that all former NE assistants struggle and attempt to become mini-hoodies.

Dr. Broncenstein
11-01-2010, 02:15 PM
Apparently "let loose your inner fist-pumping tiny man frustrations" was an answer to one of the questions.

Mogulseeker
11-01-2010, 02:16 PM
I'm still not ready to give up on McD. I like his attitude, talent evaluation, developmental ability, and I really like his play scheming. Every coach gets 3 years, and given our injuries, I'm ready to call this season in and start developing some of the young guys. I didn't expect much this year... I would like to point out that several great coaches have had equally as poor starts (Dick Vermiel, Tom Landry, etc.) and went on to win Super Bowls.

AND, if we have Dumvervil we beat the Jets, and probably either the 9ers and/or Jags. Plus the other injuries and Orton's mistakes at the most inopportune times.... that said, I'm not read to give up on Orton either - keep him for the rest of the years as we develop Tebow. That is all.

elsid13
11-01-2010, 02:16 PM
Still, perhaps the most important lessons McDaniels learned came in February 2008, two weeks after the Patriots' quest for an undefeated season ended with a 17-14 loss to the Giants in Super Bowl XLIII. When the coaches returned from a two-week break, Belichick called McDaniels into his office and handed him a five-page, typed report on what it takes to be an effective coach and have a winning organization.

"I had been talking to Bill for a few years about being a head coach, and after I didn't do any interviews during the bye week in the '07 playoffs he said, 'I will help you in any way I can to get you ready for all the other things that go into the job,'" McDaniels said. "Just being around him every day was going to help me from a football standpoint because I could see what he did and how he did it. But he was saying he would help me with some of the things that you won't really get a chance to witness or understand or become knowledgeable about until you're in that position.

"I remember when we first came back after our break, that very first day, that very first morning, he brought me into his office and he gave me five pages, typed, of all the topics and things that he felt like I needed to be educated about to become an effective head coach. I'm thinking to myself, here he's got 10 or 12 days where he can do whatever in the hell he wants to do -- we've just come off a season where we were 16-0 and lost in the Super Bowl -- and the very first day back he gives me this? That was kind of like my bible."

During the 2008 season, the men met for an hour here, 30 minutes there, until they had addressed every point in the report. From there McDaniels developed 60 to 65 questions of his own that he carried into job interviews with Cleveland and Denver earlier this year.

"When you say where did the questions come from, it was Bill's background," McDaniels said. "He had been a head coach in Cleveland and New England, he was a coordinator in a number of different places, and he understands the salary cap, free agency, the draft, contracts, all that stuff. He gave me as much of that information as I could possibly ask for -- and then he gave me a whole bunch of information that I never would have asked for. I wouldn't trade that experience for anything."


Yeah, sounds like Belichick was a real jerk about the whole thing.Uhh


There is difference in getting a 5 page memo and getting hands on experience and seeing it action. Belicheat is affective winning games, doesn't mean he is affective in developing head coaches.

bowtown
11-01-2010, 02:17 PM
Apparently "let loose your inner fist-pumping tiny man frustrations" was an answer to one of the questions.

Numbers 23-48 actually.

Mogulseeker
11-01-2010, 02:18 PM
I'm still not ready to give up on McD. I like his attitude, talent evaluation, developmental ability, and I really like his play scheming. Every coach gets 3 years, and given our injuries, I'm ready to call this season in and start developing some of the young guys. I didn't expect much this year... I would like to point out that several great coaches have had equally as poor starts (Dick Vermiel, Tom Landry, etc.) and went on to win Super Bowls.

AND, if we have Dumvervil we beat the Jets, and probably either the 9ers and/or Jags. Plus the other injuries and Orton's mistakes at the most inopportune times.... that said, I'm not read to give up on Orton either - keep him for the rest of the years as we develop Tebow. That is all.

TheReverend
11-01-2010, 02:20 PM
I'm still not ready to give up on McD. I like his attitude, talent evaluation, developmental ability, and I really like his play scheming. Every coach gets 3 years, and given our injuries, I'm ready to call this season in and start developing some of the young guys. I didn't expect much this year... I would like to point out that several great coaches have had equally as poor starts (Dick Vermiel, Tom Landry, etc.) and went on to win Super Bowls.

AND, if we have Dumvervil we beat the Jets, and probably either the 9ers and/or Jags. Plus the other injuries and Orton's mistakes at the most inopportune times.... that said, I'm not read to give up on Orton either - keep him for the rest of the years as we develop Tebow. That is all.

We already had to ignore this post once... :nono:

mkporter
11-01-2010, 02:24 PM
We have to find a way to get a return on the investment in Tebow this year. I simply do not understand the current strategy:

1. Publicly lambaste the idea of using him in the red zone only to eventually use him with great success when attempted.

2. Randomly insert him in nonsensical situations with the SAME GD PLAY and no threat to pass.



I've generally been pro-McD, I like his message,and I think he comes across as a guy who understands what it takes to field a good football team, but I have to agree with both of these points. #2 really ticked me off against the 49ers.

WolfpackGuy
11-01-2010, 02:25 PM
I can tell some of the most ardent supporters are finally beginning to see the light.

Let this be yet another lesson for teams to never hire a Belicheat assistant as HC again.

tsiguy96
11-01-2010, 02:26 PM
I've generally been pro-McD, I like his message,and I think he comes across as a guy who understands what it takes to field a good football team, but I have to agree with both of these points. #2 really ticked me off against the 49ers.

same here. fake option with tebow would be ridiculous, but hes never attempted an NFL pass, if he could do that it would open so much up.

baja
11-01-2010, 02:27 PM
<b>We</b> already had to ignore this post once... :nono:

So now you speak for the board. You really are special.

mkporter
11-01-2010, 02:31 PM
Here's what I'd like to see happen with the Broncos.

1. Hire Schottenheimer YESTERDAY. Not to coach. As an analyst/consultant. He has the entire bye week to study the team and start diagnosing where the major problems lie (personnel, coaching, execution, etc) from the scout team all the way up to Joe Ellis.

2. Put Timmy in with the ones. He gets an extra week of preparation and we either get a half a season head start on his development, or we get eight weeks of game film that say "This isn't our guy".

3. Those of you concern we lose the team with #2 should re-examine #1. #1 should show everyone they're playing for their jobs, and if that isn't enough of an incentive, we shouldn't want "professionals" like that on the Denver Broncos ball club.

Great post idea, Rev. I agree with #1. Schottenheimer knows how to put together and coach a fundamentally sound football team. We are very unsound fundamentally right now.

I feel like McDaniels could have a great team if he were able to get his players to correctly execute what he has planned, but it really seems like he is out thinking himself too often. It really seems like a lot of the team is not able to process what they are supposed to be doing on every play, and it leads to a lot of mistakes. Same thing with the coaching staff, I mean, how many x/=11 players on the field problems can one team have in a season? We are just unable to execute 10 (or even 5) straight plays with out a significant mistake.

Cito Pelon
11-01-2010, 02:36 PM
No, sir. He's not daddy. He's just a football guy that can take a look at every level of operations and then give his opinion to daddy (Bowlen).

Still, that stinks of throwing the towel in. You can't do that at this point.

elsid13
11-01-2010, 02:37 PM
So now you speak for the board. You really are special.

Since Hotrod left we need someone to fulfill that role. Though Rev doesn't bring as much flair to the job as our resident redneck.

HAT
11-01-2010, 02:41 PM
No. Using your analogy it'd be like having one known liquid that's marginally effective against fire and another liquid that you spent a fortunate in R&D on but you're not sure how it'll react.

What do you do? Test the new liquid and see the results. That's exactly what I'm advocating.




I agree with this....But only when you are 100% sure the house is burning to the ground. If a few rooms downstairs are burning but there's a chance your known quantity can still contain the fire, that's what you go with. Your upstairs rooms (vets) deserve it. Pray for rain!

I'm an Orton believer to be sure but I also like Tebow as much as the next guy. And like Taco, I get pumped every time he steps onto the field....

HOWEVER:

With KC & SD on deck....Over reacting at the bye week doesn't make any sense IMO.

I'ts a 2 game season at this point. Win those and there's a decent chance that the AFCW looks like this after week 11

KC 5-5 (Oak, Den & AZ on deck)
Oak 4-6 (KC & Pitt on deck)
Den 4-6 (KC & SD on deck)
SD 3-7 (Houston & Denver on deck)

If, however, Denver doesn't find a way to sweep KC & SD....I wouldn't be opposed to seeing the Tebow era begin (for better or for worse) at home against the Rams.

It would suck for Orton but I'm 100% sure he would handle it with class knowing that his stint here in Denver likely resurrected his career as a starter.

Eldorado
11-01-2010, 02:44 PM
http://i422.photobucket.com/albums/pp305/orangeandblue08/mcd.jpg

Eldorado
11-01-2010, 02:44 PM
http://i422.photobucket.com/albums/pp305/orangeandblue08/Pat.jpg

Beantown Bronco
11-01-2010, 02:48 PM
When Shanahan went to the 49ers he learned how to build a team in Walsh method via accessing the notes, watching video tapes of the all meetings and sitting in the draft room. That exact opposite way how Belicheat and Pioli ran things in NE.

That's the first time I've seen anyone refer to "watching videotapes" and "Belichick" as opposites.

Ambiguous
11-01-2010, 02:50 PM
can you imagine Dungy and Tebow on the same team?

man, God would literally strike down opposing players during the game

I lol'd

Popps
11-01-2010, 02:51 PM
We already had to ignore this post once... :nono:

Rev,

Seriously, you claim to want football conversation... but only when someone agrees with you. He gave an opinion and supported it as well as you did.

Then you say "we," as if you're speaking for anyone else.

Don't make claims to want real conversation if you're not capable of it yourself.

mkporter
11-01-2010, 03:20 PM
Bringing anyone in to do a review/audit would cause an affront with the current head coach and would be seen as direct challenge to his power. Lets faces the facts that McDaniels just wasn't ready to be head coach, like Scott Pioli (his former boss) stated when he was hired. Unlike Bill Walsh and his coaching tree, Belichet is extremely secretive and doesn't promote open learning system which produce good Head Coaches. We are going to have to live through McDaniels growing pains and hope he figures it out.

I missed this. Where did he say this?

TheReverend
11-01-2010, 03:22 PM
Still, that stinks of throwing the towel in. You can't do that at this point.

Or just admitting that there's SOME problem in the organization and at 2-6... that's pretty much common knowledge.

elsid13
11-01-2010, 03:24 PM
I missed this. Where did he say this?

It was right after Mcdaniels got hired by Denver. Pioli came out and stated that he didn't think McDaniels was ready to be HC. Some thought it was dig at the new rival HC but I guess there might more to the story.

Champagne Powder
11-01-2010, 03:27 PM
I missed this. Where did he say this?

Hey Senor Porter,

What does the "mk" stand for? "miniscule kock?"

mkporter
11-01-2010, 03:30 PM
2. Put Timmy in with the ones. He gets an extra week of preparation and we either get a half a season head start on his development, or we get eight weeks of game film that say "This isn't our guy".


Although I think this is a bad idea while there still is a chance for us to make the playoffs, I gotta admit that I was secretly excited to see what Tebow would do when Orton went down. Almost to the point that I was hoping for Orton to stay down. And I generally like Orton.

I think you should replace this point with:
2. Put <insert name here> in as the O-line coach. He gets an extra week of preparation and we either get a half a season head start on his development, or we get eight weeks of game film that say "This isn't our guy".

The difference is that our O-line play could scarcely get any worse, and the QB play certainly could.

Dr. Broncenstein
11-01-2010, 03:33 PM
Well this thread just went full retard.

baja
11-01-2010, 03:35 PM
I missed this. Where did he say this?

Ya I was gonna ask that too.

Drek
11-01-2010, 03:36 PM
Here's what I'd like to see happen with the Broncos.

1. Hire Schottenheimer YESTERDAY. Not to coach. As an analyst/consultant. He has the entire bye week to study the team and start diagnosing where the major problems lie (personnel, coaching, execution, etc) from the scout team all the way up to Joe Ellis.

2. Put Timmy in with the ones. He gets an extra week of preparation and we either get a half a season head start on his development, or we get eight weeks of game film that say "This isn't our guy".

3. Those of you concern we lose the team with #2 should re-examine #1. #1 should show everyone they're playing for their jobs, and if that isn't enough of an incentive, we shouldn't want "professionals" like that on the Denver Broncos ball club.
Do you realize that your desire to rush towards seeing what Tebow has all but guarantees his failure, right?

Tim Tebow at QB isn't going to make the OL suddenly figure out their blocking schemes (if you want to call what we've seen the first eight weeks "scheming"). It isn't going to suddenly empower the DL and teach them how to actually play a 2-gap role that keeps our LBs free to make plays.

You've said yourself that this team is 2-6 and might as well just mail it in. Why force Tebow into that kind of losing atmosphere with no real hope of winning but every fan expecting that he should?

Give him the season to refine his game as a full time professional. Then you start a new day for 2011 with Tim Tebow as the #1 from the start of camp.

ScottXray
11-01-2010, 04:02 PM
1. We don't bench Orton. No QB that is throwing an average of 45 times a game is going to have low turnovers. At least he's trying, which is more than it seems like the rest of the O is getting done. And it is hard to fault someone that is running for his life to avoid sacks on almost 35 plays a game.

2. McD needs to commit to the run and stick with it. We ran Twice in the second half yesterday, not counting QB runs. He went away from part of the game that WAS working. We were averaging about 4 yards a rush... WHY did he short circuit it?

3. Swamp package ONLY comes in inside the 5 yard line, unless Orton goes down. Stop disrupting series with that mess for 1 or 2 yards or worse.

4. Simplify the offense and use plays that are more fundamental. Try that to cut down on mistakes, and let the players use their given abilities instead of thinking about complicated assignments. Let the O line gel and build some continuity.

5. Script the first 15-20 plays and stick with it (avoid stupid calls that break the flow.) When something is working use it until the defense stops it, THEN change.

5. get Cox, McBath and the other defensive rooks and second year men as much time as they can get in games. We aren't getting younger in the secondary. As soon as they heal up get them in the games. The experience will help next year, and they aren't doing any worse than what we have out there now.

TheReverend
11-01-2010, 04:08 PM
Do you realize that your desire to rush towards seeing what Tebow has all but guarantees his failure, right?

Tim Tebow at QB isn't going to make the OL suddenly figure out their blocking schemes (if you want to call what we've seen the first eight weeks "scheming"). It isn't going to suddenly empower the DL and teach them how to actually play a 2-gap role that keeps our LBs free to make plays.

You've said yourself that this team is 2-6 and might as well just mail it in. Why force Tebow into that kind of losing atmosphere with no real hope of winning but every fan expecting that he should?

Give him the season to refine his game as a full time professional. Then you start a new day for 2011 with Tim Tebow as the #1 from the start of camp.

1. It absolutely would help our OL. DE's that are forced to play contain is a massive assist to our tackles.

2. If playing through adversity guarantees failure, then we should re-write Peyton and Elways careers because clearly their rookie year teams ruined them.

Kaylore
11-01-2010, 04:21 PM
Yeah sorry. This idea that playing someone early means you "ruin" them is bogus. Tebow's ego isn't built that way either.

Steve Prefontaine
11-01-2010, 04:22 PM
I'm still not ready to give up on McD. I like his attitude, talent evaluation, developmental ability, and I really like his play scheming. Every coach gets 3 years, and given our injuries, I'm ready to call this season in and start developing some of the young guys. I didn't expect much this year... I would like to point out that several great coaches have had equally as poor starts (Dick Vermiel, Tom Landry, etc.) and went on to win Super Bowls.

AND, if we have Dumvervil we beat the Jets, and probably either the 9ers and/or Jags. Plus the other injuries and Orton's mistakes at the most inopportune times.... that said, I'm not read to give up on Orton either - keep him for the rest of the years as we develop Tebow. That is all.

Attitude...Mcd talks a great game and says some exciting things. I don't see it translate to players on the field.

Talent Evaluation...B. Quinn, K. Moreno, R. Quinn, L. Maroney, J. Bannan, J. Green, N. Jones all disagree.

Developmental Ability...A. Smith?

Play Scheming...you like the running game? you like the way the OL is blocking? the ST? the run defense?

Cito Pelon
11-01-2010, 04:25 PM
My bigger fear is breeding a culture of failure. It only takes a few bad seasons to do that and it can take years to undo. We already have a well established culture of mediocrity and we're slipping very quickly into "we're the Broncos. We suck. That's who we are." mode.

Yeah, well, maybe you better buck up or shut up if that's the scenario you want to present.

zdoor
11-01-2010, 04:26 PM
Yeah sorry. This idea that playing someone early means you "ruin" them is bogus. Tebow's ego isn't built that way either.

Agree. I don't think Tebow is that mentally fragile. I would be ok with waiting out the next 2 division games in the case we see some sort of miracle turnaround but we lose those and there is really no good argument for not seeing what Tebow has....

TheReverend
11-01-2010, 04:39 PM
Agree. I don't think Tebow is that mentally fragile. I would be ok with waiting out the next 2 division games in the case we see some sort of miracle turnaround but we lose those and there is really no good argument for not seeing what Tebow has....

I could accept that but I definitely think if we're considering this move this year, the bye is a unique opportunity that we won't see again this season.

zdoor
11-01-2010, 04:45 PM
I could accept that but I definitely think if we're considering this move this year, the bye is a unique opportunity that we won't see again this season.

He should definitely be given more reps and additional coaching through the bye with the 1's. I think we see him at some point even if it's not through choice. I would be shocked if Orton makes it through the season healthy with no commitment to run and the way the line is blocking. I also think your point about having to worry about contain with Tebow is valid. He may not be the fastest QB in the league but he's not slow, is one of if not the strongest and is definitely a threat with his feet when the pocket collapses.

Cito Pelon
11-01-2010, 04:48 PM
Or just admitting that there's SOME problem in the organization and at 2-6... that's pretty much common knowledge.

I see your point, and I don't have a problem with people being furious. If you or anybody else wants to go off the deep end that's fine with me.

TonyR
11-01-2010, 05:09 PM
Something to consider re Marty Schottenheimer: he's a 67 year old man who's been out of the league for four years. Although it still amazes me that a guy whose team went 14-2 in his last year hasn't gotten a job offer since.

Cito Pelon
11-01-2010, 05:14 PM
1. We don't bench Orton. No QB that is throwing an average of 45 times a game is going to have low turnovers. At least he's trying, which is more than it seems like the rest of the O is getting done. And it is hard to fault someone that is running for his life to avoid sacks on almost 35 plays a game.

2. McD needs to commit to the run and stick with it. We ran Twice in the second half yesterday, not counting QB runs. He went away from part of the game that WAS working. We were averaging about 4 yards a rush... WHY did he short circuit it?

3. Swamp package ONLY comes in inside the 5 yard line, unless Orton goes down. Stop disrupting series with that mess for 1 or 2 yards or worse.

4. Simplify the offense and use plays that are more fundamental. Try that to cut down on mistakes, and let the players use their given abilities instead of thinking about complicated assignments. Let the O line gel and build some continuity.

5. Script the first 15-20 plays and stick with it (avoid stupid calls that break the flow.) When something is working use it until the defense stops it, THEN change.

5. get Cox, McBath and the other defensive rooks and second year men as much time as they can get in games. We aren't getting younger in the secondary. As soon as they heal up get them in the games. The experience will help next year, and they aren't doing any worse than what we have out there now.

Agreed.

Requiem
11-01-2010, 05:19 PM
Admit that he has a drinking problem and subsequently check himself into rehab or start going to AA meetings. Hell, he can even bring Orton with him. Maybe call up Cutler too.

lostknight
11-01-2010, 05:19 PM
Bringing anyone in to do a review/audit would cause an affront with the current head coach and would be seen as direct challenge to his power. Lets faces the facts that McDaniels just wasn't ready to be head coach, like Scott Pioli (his former boss) stated when he was hired.


Sorry, I am calling bull**** on this one. I paid a lot of attention at the time because I didn't want the Broncos to hire McDaniels without Pioli (and got grilled because I dared to suggest that we hired the wrong new-enlgander).

Link or it didn't happen.

Popps
11-01-2010, 05:29 PM
Agreed.

McDaniels agrees with you. He talked about wanting to do it before the game.
Looked to me like we started, and then got away from it as the game changed.

He talked after the game about repeated problems on first down, and how it's hard to commit to the run when you're false-starting, holding, getting illegal formation penalties, etc. (1st and 15/ 1st and 20 situations.)

Rock Chalk
11-01-2010, 05:38 PM
1. It absolutely would help our OL. DE's that are forced to play contain is a massive assist to our tackles.

2. If playing through adversity guarantees failure, then we should re-write Peyton and Elways careers because clearly their rookie year teams ruined them.

Eh, comparing a great college QB who is doubtful to make a great NFL QB to two great college QBs that had every tool in the garage to make great NFL QBs is futile and a stupid argument I expect out of numbskulls on thsi board.

Teblow does not have the tools Manning or Elway did. And even with those tools, Elway and Manning needed ****ing help to win games.

Teblow is not the answer, not now, not next year not ever. ****ing deal with it.

Eldorado
11-01-2010, 06:00 PM
Eh, comparing a great college QB who is doubtful to make a great NFL QB to two great college QBs that had every tool in the garage to make great NFL QBs is futile and a stupid argument I expect out of numbskulls on thsi board.

Teblow does not have the tools Manning or Elway did. And even with those tools, Elway and Manning needed ****ing help to win games.

Teblow is not the answer, not now, not next year not ever. ****ing deal with it.

He is working on that throwing motion, you know.

Hamrob
11-01-2010, 08:31 PM
This season is over. Do any of you idiots dispute that (popps)? Kyle Orton is an o.k. QB who is having fun throwing to a nice receiving corps. When the game is on the line he chokes. He is hardly special and he's not our QB of the future....quite simply.

That being said, you might as well play Orton the rest of the year and give it your best try. Most likely, McD gets fired. Who ever is hired will have to decide on the QB position...do they want to go another year with Orton/Tebow....or do they cut Orton and go after a Free Agent Qb and continue to develop Tebow...or do they Draft a young stud QB.

Lot's will be decided this upcoming offseason.

Personally, I'd be willing to give McD another year...if he promised on making the defense his primary responsibility going into the offseason...through the draft and Free Agency that is!!!

Popps
11-01-2010, 08:35 PM
This season is over. Do any of you idiots

Dude, the irony of you calling anyone an idiot is not lost on the people here.

spdirty
11-01-2010, 08:52 PM
1. I would love to see Marty helping the Broncos out. I would love it more if he got a job similar to what Parcells has in Miami. And add to that that if McD stays on, he shall be forced to take a vacation on draft day.

2. Ehh, I'm not ready for that yet. I am more in favor of starting the players that give you the best chance to win.

3. How about we let Marty decide who our starting quarterback is?

One thing I would like to see that isn't possible is McD not being fired, but being demoted to quarterbacks coach. That looks to be the only thing he can do well, so let him put his focus on that. He owes us that.

gyldenlove
11-01-2010, 09:06 PM
1. I really love the idea of a total review of the football organization, someone who has experience and is independent of the business or football side like Schottenheimer would hopefully be able to shine a light on where things can improve.

2. Call me defeatist, but I don't think **** we do right now is going to matter much for this season. I am not sold on it being in Tebows best interest to start now, especially not with this offensive line. I don't want to risk throwing him away because he represents a very significant investment in terms of money and draft picks.

extralife
11-01-2010, 09:11 PM
State of the Union address for the Broncos?

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this one line is the only good thing rob schneider has ever done in his life

strafen
11-01-2010, 09:26 PM
1. Love it.

2. Please.

3. You don't show people that they're fighting for their jobs by benching the one player who's played well, been a leader and done exactly what has been asked of him. and that's what the problem's been...
We need somebody willing to make plays where there ain't none. We need somebody that can improvise and able to bring the team back from deficit.
We need somebody that when all the chips are down, will exude confidence the game is not over yet. Orton is not IT. He's flat out not that guy...

HAT
11-01-2010, 10:01 PM
This season is over. Do any of you idiots dispute that

With every last breath in my body.

HAT
11-01-2010, 10:03 PM
Eh, comparing a great college QB who is doubtful to make a great NFL QB to two great college QBs that had every tool in the garage to make great NFL QBs is futile and a stupid argument I expect out of numbskulls on thsi board.

Teblow does not have the tools Manning or Elway did. And even with those tools, Elway and Manning needed ****ing help to win games.

Teblow is not the answer, not now, not next year not ever. ****ing deal with it.

I love your conviction and your posting style Alec.....You're going to be wrong on this one eventually but I love the way you ride it to the bottom. :strong:

RaiderH8r
11-01-2010, 10:09 PM
We're like 8-16 over the past 2 seasons, with this one being the most epic turd job in recent memory. I'm not sure anybody in that any starter on this club can be considered someone who "gives us the best chance to win". Right now our best chance to win is having a few teams miss their busses to the stadium on game day.

Plug in Tebow or let Orton play out the season and pack his **** out of town for a 3rd or higher if we can get someone to bite. Hell, maybe we could send him to MinnieKaka and they can pay the guy, give us their 2nd, and we still get Orton back off the waiver wire. None the less Orton doesn't deserve to be benched but the guy is QB of the present and presently we eat dog **** as a club. Tebow is one of the best all around athletes in the league with tremendous physical talent. If anyone risks "getting killed out there" it's Orton with his plodding style. The guy runs like he's hauling a refrigerator on his back. Not his fault but he needs protection and we don't have it. I'm pretty sure this OL couldn't keep my grandma away from her mail box and she's got a bum hip. WTF happened since last season there deserves its own thread. So, sorry Orton, we've run the tread off but something's gotta change and we've shuffled, organized, reorganized, traded, cut, hired, fired, augmented, schemed, connived and finagled just about every other position, coach, player, and personnel alignment so now it comes to you. Its a bummer but I can't lie, we play the Bills tomorrow and I'm having a tough time believing this team wins so what's the loss in putting in the QBOTF now?

But Tebow's mechanics suck, he can't throw, he throws too hard, he's too blah blah blah. Either he can play or he can't. I'm betting he'll get'er done. Orton is one dimensional, our team is one dimensional. At least Tebow brings a legitimate running game with him. Maybe Knowshon could take a couple pointers.

Bailey is about the only guy on D that can still consistently tackle in the open field. But Christ, yeah, the best thing to happen to Champ was Bowlen pulling out of contract negotiations. If that was the case we should have traded Champ before the trade deadline. This team is a shambles and a shame. Thanks McKid, you have accomplished thy master's bidding. You will soon be free to return to the side of Darth Belichick.

Hulamau
11-01-2010, 10:10 PM
Does anyone really think having Ayers and dare I say Doom on this team right now would solve any of our offensive ineptitude?

I am being serious also...I know it would help the defense, but only aspects of that as well

I just hear a lot of "if we only had *insert player* back..." and don't fully buy into it

Having both pass rushers and edge setters back ( along with Vickerson on the Dline) absolutely can help the offense.

When teams can run all day on us and QBs can pick their nose while taking a second run through their progression chart, it doenst help our O at all to have to be in catch up mode all day!

For sure, we have a major issue on the Oline that is even more of a problem than missing Doom and Ayers. But having both them back could and would have made a significant difference in getting the ball back to our O and give them a couple extra chances each game to put up 7 .. or at least 3! While at the same time keeping 7 to 14 each points or more for the bad guys Off the score board.

Our DBs would look a hell of a lot better when they have to cover for a hand full of seconds max rather than half a hour!

Reverse the injuries to Ayers and Doom as well as the corner/safety culling the last month, and we would have most likely won at least two if not three more games this year .. EVEN with all the problems on Offense!

And if we were 5-3 or even 4-4 right now there would be an entirely different vibe around here right now!

Rookie corners/ safeties and injured starting corners and safties (yesterday) have cost us at least a half dozen TDs in the last 4 to 5 games.

That doenst at all excuse the poor excuse for an OLine this season and the resulting stall in the run game, nor Ortons handful of critical mistakes too. But it does highlight just how big an influence the number, nature and position of this injury wipe out on D has had on our collect sense of well being ... and on this 2-6disappointment at the break.

And Orton is NOT the big problem here at all.

Not one of us is happy with whats happened. There are a ****load of issues we have to resolve and by no means will the majority of them be fixed this year, even if every one recovered by the KC game.

But this is definitely a team game and the idea that having your two best pass rushers and solid run stoppers on the edge wouldnt give a boost to the entire team I just dont buy at all.

What I want to see most from Josh coming out of hte break is his ability to really teh psychology of these guys and get them all refocused on one game at a time. Forget the post season or winning the division.. Just play your guts out every player on every series of each game, one by one, from here on out and let the chips fall where they may... That's what I want to see.

If Josh isnt able to do at least that then we can legitmately question if he has the full package yet to take this team to the top in the next few years?

No throwing in the towel the last 8 games!

Cito Pelon
11-01-2010, 10:24 PM
1. I really love the idea of a total review of the football organization, someone who has experience and is independent of the business or football side like Schottenheimer would hopefully be able to shine a light on where things can improve.

2. Call me defeatist, but I don't think **** we do right now is going to matter much for this season. I am not sold on it being in Tebows best interest to start now, especially not with this offensive line. I don't want to risk throwing him away because he represents a very significant investment in terms of money and draft picks.

Just have to let this season play out, and make judgements after 16 games.

Champagne Powder
11-01-2010, 11:02 PM
Schottenheimer sold real estate in Denver during the early 1970s so I think he would be open to coming here.

HAT
11-01-2010, 11:07 PM
Schottenheimer sold real estate in Denver during the early 1970s so I think he would be open to coming here.

You don't say? Whew....For a minute there I didn't think there was any chance Bowlen could pull off such a coup.

Popps
11-01-2010, 11:08 PM
Great post Hula.

KevinJames
11-01-2010, 11:14 PM
ive seen 4 games this season where Orton has a chance to either tie or win the game on the final drive in the 4th quarter.


3 out of 4 times he has failed to do so.

HAT
11-01-2010, 11:14 PM
Schottenheimer sold real estate in Denver during the early 1970s so I think he would be open to coming here.

Are you sure it wasn't the 80's bro?


Oh sorry, my bad....That's when he was giving it away.

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/marty-schottenheimer.jpg

Cito Pelon
11-01-2010, 11:35 PM
You don't say? Whew....For a minute there I didn't think there was any chance Bowlen could pull off such a coup.

No kidding, I was worried also.

FireFly
11-02-2010, 12:22 AM
Does anyone really think having Ayers and dare I say Doom on this team right now would solve any of our offensive ineptitude?

I am being serious also...I know it would help the defense, but only aspects of that as well

I just hear a lot of "if we only had *insert player* back..." and don't fully buy into it

I honestly believe if we had those 2 we'd be .50 at the moment.

Beantown Bronco
11-02-2010, 05:39 AM
ive seen 4 games this season where Orton has a chance to either tie or win the game on the final drive in the 4th quarter.


3 out of 4 times he has failed to do so.

Context....it's not for everyone.

orinjkrush
11-02-2010, 06:53 AM
how 'bout we just fix the ********** problems?

Denver Broncos 2010 NFL.com Statistics through 8 games (skewed because of Oakland debacle!):
OFFENSE
RUSHING
32nd best in rushing (2.9 yds/rush)
28th best rush left; 20th best rush center; 24th best rush right
PASSING
25th best in allowing sacks; 15th best in allowing QB hits
Best in league in +40 yd plays; 2nd best in league in +20 yd plays
4th best in passing yards/game; 4th best in passing first downs;
OVERALL
17th best in points scored (19.2 avg);
SPECIAL TEAMS
13th best in KReturns (24.1 yds avg.) 16th best in PReturns (9.6 yds avg)
DEFENSE
RUSHING
25th best in rush defense (4.6 yds avg); 24th best in allowing +20 yd runs;
31st best in allowing points; 32nd best in allowing rushing first downs;
PASSING
28th best in pass defense (7.7 yds avg); 14th best in allowing passing first downs;
29th best in getting sacks; 24th best in interceptions; 29th best in forced fumbles;
OVERALL
28th best in points scored against us (27.9 avg)

24champ
11-02-2010, 02:36 PM
Bailey is about the only guy on D that can still consistently tackle in the open field. But Christ, yeah, the best thing to happen to Champ was Bowlen pulling out of contract negotiations. If that was the case we should have traded Champ before the trade deadline. This team is a shambles and a shame. Thanks McKid, you have accomplished thy master's bidding. You will soon be free to return to the side of Darth Belichick.

I believe Champ will be tagged and traded in the offseason, assuming he can be franchised with no labor agreement. If not, I fully expect Champ to walk away from the Broncos and join a team that is contending for the SB and get paid accordingly. Either way, I don't expect Champ to be with the Broncos in the future.

I also agree with others that Orton will continue to start the rest of the way this, it makes no sense to pull him now. Quarterback is not the problem and also Orton will have interest and good trade value. Yanking Orton now will diminish his value. As for Tebow, he will be ready to take over next season and it will be his team to lead. Orton is what he is, which is a very good stop gap QB, but he's clearly not franchise material.

Right now looking at the draft boards, I'd like to see Prince from Nebraska drafted, would be nice to watch alongside Perrish Cox and Vaughn. There's a number of ways to go in the draft when you are picking right.

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/158/707/PrinceAmukamara_display_image.jpg?1266382394

tsiguy96
11-02-2010, 02:55 PM
if we take a CB with 1st pick, i might cry. this team hasnt drafted a DL or LB in 1st/2nd round since jarvis moss right?

elsid13
11-02-2010, 02:57 PM
if we take a CB with 1st pick, i might cry. this team hasnt drafted a DL or LB in 1st/2nd round since jarvis moss right?

Ayers last year.

TheReverend
11-02-2010, 02:58 PM
if we take a CB with 1st pick, i might cry. this team hasnt drafted a DL or LB in 1st/2nd round since jarvis moss right?

Robert Ayers ring any bells?

tsiguy96
11-02-2010, 02:59 PM
Robert Ayers ring any bells?

oh yea :strong:

regardless, point stands, cant ignore that position for that long and hope to have a dominant defense over time. 1st and 2 2nds should be LB, DT/DE and S/CB depending on champ and dawkins

24champ
11-02-2010, 03:07 PM
if we take a CB with 1st pick, i might cry. this team hasnt drafted a DL or LB in 1st/2nd round since jarvis moss right?

We need some playmakers in the secondary with Champ likely to be gone and the possibility of Dawkins retiring. Prince is going to be a good one along with Patrick Peterson from LSU. I wish safety Tanard Jackson would be available, but he will be locked up by Tampa Bay.

TheReverend
11-02-2010, 03:16 PM
oh yea :strong:

regardless, point stands, cant ignore that position for that long and hope to have a dominant defense over time. 1st and 2 2nds should be LB, DT/DE and S/CB depending on champ and dawkins

Too fluid. Have to see what free agency makes available and then see who declares for the draft and their work outs and how things start to shake up.

I agree that those are positions of need along with a minimum of 1 more interior offensive lineman and a tight end.

Dan Graham officially sucks now. And, yes, that includes blocking.

HAT
11-02-2010, 11:32 PM
2. Put Timmy in with the ones. He gets an extra week of preparation and we either get a half a season head start on his development, or we get eight weeks of game film that say "This isn't our guy".



Hey Rev, serious question.....(and it may have already been asked and answered somewhere in this thread...If so, apologies in advance)

Given that you said this is a step BOWLEN should take....What is your take on The Jerry Jones's and Daniel Snyder's of this world?

Seems to me owners like like that are universally lambasted for being too meddlesome and what not?

I mean, wouldn't we be laughing our collective asses off if Snyder or Jones was forcing a personnel decision down Wade's or Mike's throat?

BroncoSojia
11-03-2010, 12:04 AM
Eh, comparing a great college QB who is doubtful to make a great NFL QB to two great college QBs that had every tool in the garage to make great NFL QBs is futile and a stupid argument I expect out of numbskulls on thsi board.

Teblow does not have the tools Manning or Elway did. And even with those tools, Elway and Manning needed ****ing help to win games.

Teblow is not the answer, not now, not next year not ever. ****ing deal with it.

Orton isn't either so I guess we're ****ed

TheReverend
11-03-2010, 01:06 AM
Hey Rev, serious question.....(and it may have already been asked and answered somewhere in this thread...If so, apologies in advance)

Given that you said this is a step BOWLEN should take....What is your take on The Jerry Jones's and Daniel Snyder's of this world?

Seems to me owners like like that are universally lambasted for being too meddlesome and what not?

I mean, wouldn't we be laughing our collective asses off if Snyder or Jones was forcing a personnel decision down Wade's or Mike's throat?

That's a mistake actually. I think Bowlen should do #1 and McDaniels should be doing #2. I fully agree that an owner shouldn't be pushing playing time down a coaches throat unless it becomes a ridiculous scenario.

Merlin
11-03-2010, 05:51 PM
1. Love it.

2. Please.

3. You don't show people that they're fighting for their jobs by benching the one player who's played well, been a leader and done exactly what has been asked of him.
I'm with Popps on this one. It may be because I'm not a huge fan of the anointed one...I have not seen anything to get excited about yet (at the NFL level), and I feel he should be properly groomed before being evaluated. Orton concerns me, but he is still better than many starting QBs out there, and I'm sure he is better than Tsomething.

TheReverend
11-03-2010, 06:09 PM
I'm with Popps on this one. It may be because I'm not a huge fan of the anointed one...I have not seen anything to get excited about yet (at the NFL level), and I feel he should be properly groomed before being evaluated. Orton concerns me, but he is still better than many starting QBs out there, and I'm sure he is better than Tsomething.

That's part of the point. We really haven't seen anything. It might lead to some un-informed decisions that could be serious potential pitfalls this off-season.

Merlin
11-03-2010, 06:18 PM
That's part of the point. We really haven't seen anything. It might lead to some un-informed decisions that could be serious potential pitfalls this off-season.
But if he still needs coaching before playing with the big boys, then the decisions will be "un-informed", because they were based on a rushed product.

NFLBRONCO
11-03-2010, 08:26 PM
if we take a CB with 1st pick, i might cry. this team hasnt drafted a DL or LB in 1st/2nd round since jarvis moss right?

While I prefer DE I wouldn't go nuts adding a great CB either. We need great players everywhere. We need a replacement for Champ at corner.


BTW any LB's going to be worth a top 12 draft pick this year?

strafen
11-03-2010, 08:46 PM
But if he still needs coaching before playing with the big boys, then the decisions will be "un-informed", because they were based on a rushed product.

The way I look at it is this.
Tebow has shown me from preseason that he can fend forhimself in the NFL.
He's got the tools to make things happen on the field.
He's one of those guys that would always be a constant threat to score.
Now, I don't like the way he's brought along thus far.
They're telling him, go out there and run the ball.
No confidence has been displayed in his passing abilities. I don't know if that's good for the psyque of Tebow.

Show you believe in the guy and throw him in there.
Let's see what we've got. We've got nothing to lose. None!

Tebow is mobilie enough that even with our shaky OL, he could take some pressure off of it.

DrFate
11-04-2010, 07:08 AM
Yeah sorry. This idea that playing someone early means you "ruin" them is bogus. Tebow's ego isn't built that way either.

Agreed. Bradford has done pretty well. Same with Stafford. Look at Freeman in Tampa - he was allegedly a 'development' guy, and he looks pretty solid.

Didn't Ryan start as a rookie? Didn't Flacco start early on?

CEH
11-04-2010, 07:17 AM
Agreed. Bradford has done pretty well. Same with Stafford. Look at Freeman in Tampa - he was allegedly a 'development' guy, and he looks pretty solid.

Didn't Ryan start as a rookie? Didn't Flacco start early on?

How about Josh Freeman? He's doing OK for crappy TB with 5 comebacks already

I will say this. If there is one thing this board can agree upon is that McD can coach QBs. If he doesn't think Timmy is ready I gotta go with him on this one. The "why draft a first rounder who isn't ready to play for a top 5 worst team " is a whole other discussion.

Because we still have 5 AFCW games until we lose 2 more we still might have a chance. After that the seson is shot so play Timmy

BroncoMan4ever
11-04-2010, 01:56 PM
I thought he was asked to win games not fumble that chance away against one of the worst teams in the NFL and end the chances for overtime on an interception?

when the guy is having a record setting season while playing on a team with no running game at all, a line that can't block a high school JV defense, and a defense that allows the opposition to shred it for an average of almost 30 a game, meaning he is constantly playing with the opposing team knowing he is going to throw the ball 40+ times a game i say he has done a damn great job this season.

too many Broncos fans are thinking a QB needs to be able to carry a team and lead comebacks on his own like Elway did. Problem with that thinking is there is and will only ever be one Elway and he is gone.

Given all the deficiencies Orton is playing with, the fact that this team is 2-6 is not even a little bit his fault.

TheReverend
11-04-2010, 01:59 PM
when the guy is having a record setting season while playing on a team with no running game at all

Amazing how those work together, eh? You mean since we can't run it, we pass a lot more? Remarkable.

BroncoMan4ever
11-04-2010, 02:01 PM
The way I look at it is this.
Tebow has shown me from preseason that he can fend forhimself in the NFL.
He's got the tools to make things happen on the field.
He's one of those guys that would always be a constant threat to score.
Now, I don't like the way he's brought along thus far.
They're telling him, go out there and run the ball.
No confidence has been displayed in his passing abilities. I don't know if that's good for the psyque of Tebow.

Show you believe in the guy and throw him in there.
Let's see what we've got. We've got nothing to lose. None!

Tebow is mobilie enough that even with our shaky OL, he could take some pressure off of it.


or the more likely possibility is, he gets placed into the line of fire and our line can't keep him safe, he gets hit repeatedly, because everyone knows defenses love to tee off on rookie QB's especially ones who are anywhere near as popular as Tebow. he gets pounded on, makes some rookie mistakes, and before long we have a David Carr type of situation with the guy who is supposed to return the tam to glory and we are looking for a new QB in the next few seasons, along with a new coach which means this team is in a state of less than mediocrity another 5 years minimum.

Tebow isn't ready, the fact that McD has yet to allow him to attempt a pass says that, so don't put him in until he is somewhat prepared.

BroncoMan4ever
11-04-2010, 02:02 PM
Amazing how those work together, eh? You mean since we can't run it, we pass a lot more? Remarkable.

wouldn't matter if we could run it. this team falls behind so quickly in games that even if we had TD running the ball we wouldn't be able to establish any sort of running game.