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The Joker
11-01-2010, 04:20 AM
What will Orton be worth if Denver does decide to part ways with him in the offseason, in your opinion?

I don't want this to turn into another Orton-bashers versus Orton-defenders thread, and I certainly don't want people to think I'm trying to make Orton a scapegoat for our record at this point. As far as I'm concerned Kyle Orton is an absolute model professional and I could think of few people I'd rather see be a Broncos great.

That said, I don't think he's the future for us at QB and I fully expect that Tebow will be the starting QB for us come opening day next year. (assuming there is a season, that is.)

So, naturally the thing to do is to move Orton in the coming offseason for a draft pick or two and use those picks to upgrade other areas of the team.

But what exactly is Orton's value right now?

At the midway point in the season he's on course to pass for over 5,000 yards with 25 TD's and 10 INTs. While I expect his yardage numbers will drop as the season goes on and we face teams we might actually be able to run against with a modicum of success, the TD/INT numbers should be relatively close to where they're projected IMO.

Say he finishes the season with

4,500 yards - 25 TD's - 10 INTs - 62% completion percentage - QB rating of 90.0

Surely if you're a team in need of QB you're very, very interested in a guy with that kind of production.

I only ask because I genuinely have no idea what the asking price would be for Orton if we do try and move him. Matt Cassel fetched an early 2nd round pick, surely Orton has to be worth more than that?

tsiguy96
11-01-2010, 04:22 AM
wont get a 1st for orton simply because of his perception. doesnt matter how well he plays. would hope to get a 2nd though.

UberBroncoMan
11-01-2010, 05:30 AM
What's more impressive is that he's thrown the way he has with teams knowing we are going to throw as much as we are.

Drek
11-01-2010, 05:39 AM
If he finishes with the stats you posted he'd be worth a 2nd rounder or so. No one is going to give a first for him at this point because his W/L record isn't good enough to demand it, and for QBs that matters.

Rohirrim
11-01-2010, 05:46 AM
What I'm afraid of is that this team is going to waste three or four years putting all its eggs in the Tebow basket, and being left with nothing when he doesn't pan out.

ZONA
11-01-2010, 05:48 AM
I'd say his value would be very high. He's actually shown me that he's better in some areas that I didn't give him credit for. His accurcy is much better now. He is really moving well in the pocket. Yeah, he's got crap speed and isn't going to do much there but he is moving around in that pocket better this year. His arm strength looks better and he's actually got some damn good touch on some long balls. I remember last year everybody was bagging on him for that.

He may not draw a 1st round pick but you never know. There could be a few teams that might offer a 1st but I doubt it would be anything higher then say #25.

baja
11-01-2010, 05:53 AM
He'll fetch 2 firsts a third and Jay Cutler. ;D



I think he could bring as much as a low 1st round pick but more likely a second rounder and something else. He will be coveted by a few teams.

Rohirrim
11-01-2010, 06:12 AM
And then the Broncos are left with Tebow and Quinn? Excuse me for ROFL!

ColoradoDarin
11-01-2010, 06:40 AM
A high 2nd or a low 2nd and another pick (4th or so).

v2micca
11-01-2010, 06:48 AM
Don't get me wrong, I have enjoyed watching Orton fling it this season as much as anyone. But I just don't think there is any way we get more than a 3rd Round pick for the guy if we trade him in the off season. Especially with the uncertainty of the the 2011 season, teams are going to be inclined to stockpile draft picks, not Veterans.

dbfan4life
11-01-2010, 07:09 AM
Trade Orton. Fold in the season. Great message to the team.

CEH
11-01-2010, 07:14 AM
A third round pick. McNabb in Washington will have teams thinking twice about high round picks for vet QBs.. First Reid now SHanny are questioning McNabb. Teams will look more at Orton's overall career than just one season under what is a pretty good passing coach

I really believe at some point this season if things stay status quo you need to see what Tebow has. We could be staring directly at a franchise QB in the draft so we must be prepared to address that situation and while the climate might not be ideal , another decision point for this FO may occur.

Garcia Bronco
11-01-2010, 07:16 AM
Trading Orton would be dumb.

baja
11-01-2010, 07:20 AM
Trading Orton would be dumb.

well since the deadline has passed I doubt that will happen.

There will come a day when he will be traded and that day will be when Tebow is ready to take over.

barryr
11-01-2010, 07:24 AM
Hmm, so Orton isn't that good according to quite a few, yet turn around and think he will fetch a high draft pick in return? Makes no sense. I don't see the need to trade Orton at all. It seems to me it is mostly Cutler fans who want him gone since they never accepted Orton and apparently never will no matter what he does.

Jetmeck
11-01-2010, 07:29 AM
You guys said the same about Jay. Move the ball between the twenties and choke in the red zone. Whats the diff ? We have made major negative strides.

eddie mac
11-01-2010, 07:36 AM
And then the Broncos are left with Tebow and Quinn? Excuse me for ROFL!

Quinn's out of contract, albeit likely restricted in some way.

v2micca
11-01-2010, 07:36 AM
I was never a big fan of Kyle Orton. But, he has surprised me and played far better than I had ever hoped he would. I would say that his value to the Broncos right now is far greater than his value to any other team. Given that situation, there really is no benefit in trading him.

jhns
11-01-2010, 07:38 AM
Hmm, so Orton isn't that good according to quite a few, yet turn around and think he will fetch a high draft pick in return? Makes no sense. I don't see the need to trade Orton at all. It seems to me it is mostly Cutler fans who want him gone since they never accepted Orton and apparently never will no matter what he does.

I would love to test your theory. Let me know when he does something and we can see if people still want him gone.

Captain 'Dre
11-01-2010, 07:41 AM
He'll fetch 2 firsts a third and Jay Cutler. ;D



I think he could bring as much as a low 1st round pick but more likely a second rounder and something else. He will be coveted by a few teams.

Yes, by a *few* teams.

Not enough of them to generate much of a bidding war, I'm afraid.

Also, the higher a guy's salary, the more difficult it is to extract quaity draft picks for him, because such trades are also salary dumps.

Xanders might be able to get a 2nd for Kyle, but more likely a 3rd, IMO.

barryr
11-01-2010, 08:10 AM
I would love to test your theory. Let me know when he does something and we can see if people still want him gone.

It isn't Orton's fault the OL doesn't block consistently well or the defense isn't very good. Even the great QB's in NFL history would have fun trying to lead this team to victories.

jhns
11-01-2010, 08:15 AM
It isn't Orton's fault the OL doesn't block consistently well or the defense isn't very good. Even the great QB's in NFL history would have fun trying to lead this team to victories.

It is Ortons fault that the line doesn't block well. Why do you think we went from the least amount of sacks given up to one of the most? That happened with the QB change. The scapegoats are now playing well for the Chiefs and Seahawks. I even said it would suddenly be a problem with Orton and it happened. I will give you that some of it is that we have the new Mike Martz that has no clue how to protect his QB.

Also, good QBs could have won with this team. We have been in games and Orton has just sucked late in games. There are many QBs out there that can throw in the red zone and don't fall apart when a game is close late.

baja
11-01-2010, 08:28 AM
Yes, by a *few* teams.

Not enough of them to generate much of a bidding war, I'm afraid.

Also, the higher a guy's salary, the more difficult it is to extract quaity draft picks for him, because such trades are also salary dumps.

Xanders might be able to get a 2nd for Kyle, but more likely a 3rd, IMO.

It only takes two teams that really want him.

Or one team that wants him with the perception there are others biding.

oubronco
11-01-2010, 08:41 AM
Yea let's trade the starting qb who's playing at a high level and start a qb who hasn't even thrown a fuggin pass..........Brilliant

Spider
11-01-2010, 08:57 AM
I was on board the second we traded Cutler for Orton , and Orton is only going to get better , if we had a run game , Orton would in the manning , big ben , Brady circle .... but I wouldnt put it past McDumbass to trade him

Crushisback
11-01-2010, 09:05 AM
He'll fetch 2 firsts a third and Jay Cutler. ;D



I think he could bring as much as a low 1st round pick but more likely a second rounder and something else. He will be coveted by a few teams.

Only problem is that a team with a low first probably doesn't need a QB. I'd be suprised if we traded him at all, but if we did I think a 3rd would be the price considering McNabb fetched only a 2nd.

bronco_diesel
11-01-2010, 09:08 AM
He'll land you a 3rd rounder, nothing higher.

baja
11-01-2010, 10:51 AM
Only problem is that a team with a low first probably doesn't need a QB. I'd be suprised if we traded him at all, but if we did I think a 3rd would be the price considering McNabb fetched only a 2nd.

Minnesota for one and there is always the unforeseen injury.

Oh and Mcnabb is way past his prime and Orton is just hitting his, big difference in value there.

briane
11-01-2010, 10:58 AM
I say we trade him for someone to compete with Colquitt, because it looks like he has that position locked up.

bronco_diesel
11-01-2010, 10:59 AM
Minnesota for one and there is always the unforeseen injury.

Oh and Mcnabb is way past his prime and Orton is just hitting his, big difference in value there.

yeah, but mcnabb's prime was much higher than orton's will ever be. i don't hate orton, but the dude is simply limited by his sever lack of mobility. he's a great passer, but needs the system to work to be successful.

he's not a guy teams will covet...but he is worth a 3rd rounder if you have a solid OL and running game in place.

TheReverend
11-01-2010, 11:04 AM
No higher than a fourth.

People won't be getting fooled by Matt Cassell part II again.

Beantown Bronco
11-01-2010, 11:06 AM
yeah, but mcnabb's prime was much higher than orton's will ever be.

Point? What on earth does McNabb's prime matter when you talking about his trade value when he was 5 or so years past his prime. He wasn't traded when he was in his prime.

Orton's prime (today) is better than McNabb's 2010 "past his prime". That's all that matters if you're trying to use the McNabb trade as a basis for comparison.

bronco_diesel
11-01-2010, 11:09 AM
Point? What on earth does McNabb's prime matter when you talking about his trade value when he was 5 or so years past his prime. He wasn't traded when he was in his prime.

Orton's prime (today) is better than McNabb's 2010 "past his prime". That's all that matters if you're trying to use the McNabb trade as a basis for comparison.

it's the perception. McNabb has had a great career and he brings a reputation. teams will take a chance on that - there is a perception of his upside being higher.

Drek
11-01-2010, 11:18 AM
No higher than a fourth.

People won't be getting fooled by Matt Cassell part II again.

Except Cassel is starting to play solid football in KC now.

baja
11-01-2010, 11:21 AM
it's the perception. McNabb has had a great career and he brings a reputation. teams will take a chance on that - there is a perception of his upside being higher.

Ya it happens all the time GMs go after starting QBs because they were good once.

colonelbeef
11-01-2010, 11:28 AM
wont get a 1st for orton simply because of his perception. doesnt matter how well he plays. would hope to get a 2nd though.

perception = reality.

He isn't a star player, period.

razorwire77
11-01-2010, 11:32 AM
I think he would probably be 2-3rd round value assuming he continues to put up the numbers. If the plan is to trade him though, I would rather trade him for an established defensive player. Maybe get a LB or S to replace Dawkins (who I have a suspection may retire at the end of this debacle. Then use our top 10 pick, 2nds on front seven players on defense, and possibly G/RT.

tsiguy96
11-01-2010, 11:42 AM
perception = reality.

He isn't a star player, period.

hahahaha, you of all people saying perception = reality is an absolute joke.

jhns
11-01-2010, 11:44 AM
hahahaha, you of all people saying perception = reality is an absolute joke.

Did tsi really just type this to another poster?

edog24
11-01-2010, 11:46 AM
I think he would probably be 2-3rd round value assuming he continues to put up the numbers. If the plan is to trade him though, I would rather trade him for an established defensive player. Maybe get a LB or S to replace Dawkins (who I have a suspection may retire at the end of this debacle. Then use our top 10 pick, 2nds on front seven players on defense, and possibly G/RT.

I think this would be nice but I don't think it's realistic, there is no way a team will establish an established defensive player who is good for a mid level qb. I don't think we would see much value in return for a defensive player, unless we really fleece some team who is desperate.

cutthemdown
11-01-2010, 12:51 PM
Might get a 2nd I guess.

Popps
11-01-2010, 01:05 PM
What I'm afraid of is that this team is going to waste three or four years putting all its eggs in the Tebow basket, and being left with nothing when he doesn't pan out.

Yea, but you have to understand the mentality of the average fan. Football is hard to understand. It's a complex, confusing game and most fans simply aren't going to be able to look at and accurately dissect our run blocking problems, coverage issues, defensive line woes, etc.

It's much easier to just say... "get a new quarterback."

Add to that, a very intriguing and talented project QB in Tebow... and it stirs up the pot even more.


Basically, Orton is a few small mistakes from being perfect this season. He's thrown less INTs than Rivers and only 3 more than Manning. His biggest mistakes probably involved not taking care of the ball when out of the pocket... something that is definitely correctable.

We've got a QB with borderline Pro Bowl numbers who is showing complete mastery of our system and the ability to put up big numbers even when teams KNOW we can't run. So, what do Orange Mane posters suggest? You got it... change QBs. I mean, we're struggling... it must be the QB's fault, right?

Now, enter Tim Tebow. In an ABSOLUTE BEST case scenario... he's looking at 2 years to get to where Orton is in this system RIGHT NOW. Further factor in that almost every scout and coach on earth think that he's a project... if even an NFL QB at all. (Disclaimer: I like Tebow a lot.)

So, we're going to rip a guy who's playing B+, maybe even A- football out of the starting lineup so we can start a long process of developing a who who MIGHT be able to get to that stage in a couple of seasons. Oh, and he might NOT EVER get to that stage.

Losing makes people insane. It really does.

If our defense simply did its job against the Jets, we'd be 3-5. If we didn't get hosed on two calls yesterday, we'd probably be 4-4.

I know, I know... "if if's and buts were candies and nuts...."

But, a couple of those small breaks go our way, and not only is there NO talk of benching Orton, you'd have threads here for people demanding his Pro Bowl berth this season.


Losing makes people goofy, and there is no better example than deciding to bench or trade one of the ONLY players who has consistently played at a high level this season for us.

BlaK-Argentina
11-01-2010, 01:13 PM
Yea, but you have to understand the mentality of the average fan. Football is hard to understand. It's a complex, confusing game and most fans simply aren't going to be able to look at and accurately dissect our run blocking problems, coverage issues, defensive line woes, etc.

It's much easier to just say... "get a new quarterback."

Add to that, a very intriguing and talented project QB in Tebow... and it stirs up the pot even more.


Basically, Orton is a few small mistakes from being perfect this season. He's thrown less INTs than Rivers and only 3 more than Manning. His biggest mistakes probably involved not taking care of the ball when out of the pocket... something that is definitely correctable.

We've got a QB with borderline Pro Bowl numbers who is showing complete mastery of our system and the ability to put up big numbers even when teams KNOW we can't run. So, what do Orange Mane posters suggest? You got it... change QBs. I mean, we're struggling... it must be the QB's fault, right?

Now, enter Tim Tebow. In an ABSOLUTE BEST case scenario... he's looking at 2 years to get to where Orton is in this system RIGHT NOW. Further factor in that almost every scout and coach on earth think that he's a project... if even an NFL QB at all. (Disclaimer: I like Tebow a lot.)

So, we're going to rip a guy who's playing B+, maybe even A- football out of the starting lineup so we can start a long process of developing a who who MIGHT be able to get to that stage in a couple of seasons. Oh, and he might NOT EVER get to that stage.

Losing makes people insane. It really does.

If our defense simply did its job against the Jets, we'd be 3-5. If we didn't get hosed on two calls yesterday, we'd probably be 4-4.

I know, I know... "if if's and buts were candies and nuts...."

But, a couple of those small breaks go our way, and not only is there NO talk of benching Orton, you'd have threads here for people demanding his Pro Bowl berth this season.


Losing makes people goofy, and there is no better example than deciding to bench or trade one of the ONLY players who has consistently played at a high level this season for us.

After thinking it over, you're probably right. Orton is signed through next year, I think it would be a mistake to trade him this offseason. (not to mention benching him) Reality is, we have NO idea what Tebow is going to be like, and we're not going to get that much for Orton IMO. He's great insurance, he'll be a very good QB for a while and even if Tebow doesn't pan out we could keep Orton until we groom the next guy.

Plus, if we can get him a decent enough team this guy will WIN. Period.
I agree that losing makes people crazy... I even fell for that, but it would be a mistake and hopefully Josh makes the right call.

NASurfer
11-01-2010, 02:19 PM
If people look at us and see a franchise desperate for a franchise QB and yet we're so willing to unload Orton what makes us think anyone would offer a first for him?

I'm reminded of when Kitna bounced around the league. People will view Orton the same way IMO.

Pony Boy
11-01-2010, 04:02 PM
I remeber when people on the Mane were saying Jimmy Clausen and Tony Pike had a lot more up-side than Sam Bradford..............:rofl:

WolfpackGuy
11-01-2010, 04:10 PM
Orton and 5th rounder for two firsts, a third, and someone's backup QB.

That's pretty fair.

colonelbeef
11-01-2010, 04:37 PM
hahahaha, you of all people saying perception = reality is an absolute joke.

I don't get it.

Jay3
11-01-2010, 04:40 PM
No higher than a fourth.

People won't be getting fooled by Matt Cassell part II again.

Yeap.

Rigs11
11-01-2010, 04:41 PM
wow, the same morons that were so butthurt about trading marshall now want to trade orton. brilliant!

Jay3
11-01-2010, 04:50 PM
wow, the same morons that were so butthurt about trading marshall now want to trade orton. brilliant!

That is indeed ironic considering they are of equal stature and value as players.
ROFL!

How did we ever convince the Bears to give away Kyle and two firsts?

Zoobie
11-01-2010, 04:54 PM
I think teams are smarter than to trade away draft picks, especially for Orton who seems to be a system guy. That is not a bad thing, but I truly doubt he'd have this type of success on another team. I would be honestly surprised if we could get a 3rd round draft choice.

Rigs11
11-01-2010, 05:03 PM
I think teams are smarter than to trade away draft picks, especially for Orton who seems to be a system guy. That is not a bad thing, but I truly doubt he'd have this type of success on another team. I would be honestly surprised if we could get a 3rd round draft choice.

What system is he benefiting from? the awesome oline and terrific run game? give me a freaking break, this "he's a system qb" argument is idiotic.

Zoobie
11-01-2010, 05:07 PM
What system is he benefiting from? the awesome oline and terrific run game? give me a freaking break, this "he's a system qb" argument is idiotic.

I like Orton and appreciate what he is doing, but if we get anything better than a 3rd i'll give you five bucks and a new pair of socks.

TheReverend
11-01-2010, 05:13 PM
Except Cassel is starting to play solid football in KC now.

Clearly. That's why they run it twice to every pass.

Zoobie
11-01-2010, 05:15 PM
Clearly. That's why they run it twice to every pass.

When you that good at running, why on earth would you pass? If Charles and Thomas can do the disgusting things they have been doing all year, I wouldn't even let Peyton Manning pass it. I fail to see your logic.

broncolife
11-01-2010, 05:55 PM
If our defense simply did its job against the Jets, we'd be 3-5. I.

I blame the O more for this loss. Its suppose to be the strength of this team and they blew it. The D set them up multiple times with great field positon and we got nothing out of it.



D forces 3 and out
Our O starts with great field posion at NYJ 40 but they fumble it away.
D forces 3 and out
O 3 and out
D gets an Int at NYJ 33
O starts with great field position again,we end up getting nothing out of it because a crappy snap
D allows a TD
O finally gets a TD
Onside kick recover, we punt
D Forces a punt
O 3 and out (big surprise)
D gets an Int
O gets a field goal
O miss field goal
D allows a field goal
O goes 6 and out
D forces 3 and out
O gets a TD
D forces and recovers a fumble
O 3 and out
D force a 3 and out
O 3 and out
Jets have great field position. D allows td
O gets a field goal
Biatch call helps jets get a td
O fumbles

Defense
1 punt
4 3 and out
3 turnovers
1 field goal allowed
1 td with jets O start around 50
1 td setup by penalty
1 td

Offense
4 3 and outs
1 6 and out
2 turnovers
2 tds
2 field goals
2 missed field goals

Rigs11
11-01-2010, 06:31 PM
I like Orton and appreciate what he is doing, but if we get anything better than a 3rd i'll give you five bucks and a new pair of socks.

I want to know what system orton is benefiting from? Is it the awesome defense?the stellar oline? The badass run game?

Hamrob
11-01-2010, 09:13 PM
He'll fetch 2 firsts a third and Jay Cutler. ;D



I think he could bring as much as a low 1st round pick but more likely a second rounder and something else. He will be coveted by a few teams.Yeah right! Nobody is going to covet Kyle Orton. What team would rather trade a number one for Orton than use that number one to draft a QB of the future? Nobocy will give up a number one for fumble fingers Orton!

Hamrob
11-01-2010, 09:17 PM
I want to know what system orton is benefiting from? Is it the awesome defense?the stellar oline? The badass run game?He's a system guy...which means he can learn (because he's smart) a system and play within that system. Nothing more. Meaning he isn't special athletically or in his playmaking abililty. Case in point, he's had 3 games this year where we needed game saving drives and his results have been, Fumble, Int, Fumble. He Chokes when the game is on the line. He can manage a game, but he can't carry a game! He's simply a system QB....Trent Dilfer ring a bell?

Beantown Bronco
11-01-2010, 09:18 PM
I remeber when people on the Mane were saying Jimmy Clausen and Tony Pike had a lot more up-side than Sam Bradford..............:rofl:

I'm not one of those, but you would've been laughed off the board if you said that Tom Brady had more upside than any other QB after his rookie season.

To play Devil's advocate, though, you can't conclude right now that they don't have more upside than Bradford. It's one of my pet peeves. How can one measure upside?

Beantown Bronco
11-01-2010, 09:20 PM
Case in point, he's had 3 games this year where we needed game saving drives and his results have been, Fumble, Int, Fumble. He Chokes when the game is on the line.

That's a little dishonest. Down by 2 scores, 3:30 on the clock, he drove them down for a touchdown in less than a minute. That can't be ignored.

How many QBs, including Brady and Manning, have a winning record when they're down by 2 TDs with 3:30 left on the clock?

lostknight
11-01-2010, 09:27 PM
Kyle Orton is 8th in the NFL right now in passer rating, falling each week. He is in a system system that is designed to be passer friendly at the cost of a ground game. Ironically for all the Tebow criticism, that's the very definition of a system quarterback.

People are high on Tebow because his ceiling is practically unlimited. If he delivers on his promise, he will be a year-in, year-out elite quarterback in this leauge, and as marketable as Brady and Manning. That alone has the NFL drooling.

Is this year the right time for a switch? It really depends on what Josh thinks, and Kyle's performance the rest of the year. Remember that Kyle has a history of strong performance regressions second half of the season. If we see a similar drop off the second half as we did last year, that will make the decision much easier.

There are a lot of teams that will be looking for a quarterback this year.

baja
11-02-2010, 01:35 AM
He's a system guy...which means he can learn (because he's smart) a system and play within that system. Nothing more. Meaning he isn't special athletically or in his playmaking abililty. Case in point, he's had 3 games this year where we needed game saving drives and his results have been, Fumble, Int, Fumble. He Chokes when the game is on the line. He can manage a game, but he can't carry a game! He's simply a system QB....Trent Dilfer ring a bell?

I do agree Kyle doesn't have 'it'. He plays his worst football when we need him to play his best football but that's why we drafted Tebow, he has 'it' in spades.

Orton will likely finish the year as our starter and Tebow will sit and learn.

TDmvp
11-02-2010, 01:43 AM
I was on board the second we traded Cutler for Orton , and Orton is only going to get better , if we had a run game , Orton would in the manning , big ben , Brady circle .... but I wouldnt put it past McDumbass to trade him



http://www.funnypictureblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/NotSureIfSerious.jpg

Zoobie
11-02-2010, 01:49 AM
I want to know what system orton is benefiting from? Is it the awesome defense?the stellar oline? The badass run game?

I don't feel a need to reiterate what others have just said. If Orton garners more than a 3rd round pick, I will honestly give you money. I'll even go a step further, if he has success on another team(personal success, not team success), i'll give you another 5 bucks. I'm not hating on the guy, i'm happy with what he has done/ is doing for our team.

Rausch 2.0
11-02-2010, 03:43 AM
http://www.funnypictureblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/NotSureIfSerious.jpg

Hilarious!

strafen
11-02-2010, 06:41 AM
A 7 rounder a ham sandwich with chips and a diet coke...

bowtown
11-02-2010, 07:38 AM
If Tebow was having Orton's season, even with the 2-6 record, most of you people would be drinking kool-aid and using his nuts as a porch swing.

Rigs11
11-02-2010, 10:39 AM
He's a system guy...which means he can learn (because he's smart) a system and play within that system. Nothing more. Meaning he isn't special athletically or in his playmaking abililty. Case in point, he's had 3 games this year where we needed game saving drives and his results have been, Fumble, Int, Fumble. He Chokes when the game is on the line. He can manage a game, but he can't carry a game! He's simply a system QB....Trent Dilfer ring a bell?

Wow now i've heard it all. He's a system guy because he is smart?oh noes the horror!have you ever thought that maybe if the system around him were better than we wouldn't have needed 3 game saving drives? you guys said the same thing about plummer being a system guy. that shet doesn't fly anymore.Orton is heads above better than dilfer. Try again.

~Crash~
11-02-2010, 10:44 AM
A 7 rounder a ham sandwich with chips and a diet coke...

Shannon Sharp would be proud !:thumbs:

Rock Chalk
11-02-2010, 10:50 AM
You guys said the same about Jay. Move the ball between the twenties and choke in the red zone. Whats the diff ? We have made major negative strides.

The biggest difference there is Jay had a running game to help in the red zone. Jay's red zone difficulties were turnovers. Orton does not have that problem but he also does not have any kind of threatening run game to help any passing situations out in the red zone.

Rock Chalk
11-02-2010, 10:53 AM
I blame the O more for this loss. Its suppose to be the strength of this team and they blew it. The D set them up multiple times with great field positon and we got nothing out of it.



D forces 3 and out
Our O starts with great field posion at NYJ 40 but they fumble it away.
D forces 3 and out
O 3 and out
D gets an Int at NYJ 33
O starts with great field position again,we end up getting nothing out of it because a crappy snap
D allows a TD
O finally gets a TD
Onside kick recover, we punt
D Forces a punt
O 3 and out (big surprise)
D gets an Int
O gets a field goal
O miss field goal
D allows a field goal
O goes 6 and out
D forces 3 and out
O gets a TD
D forces and recovers a fumble
O 3 and out
D force a 3 and out
O 3 and out
Jets have great field position. D allows td
O gets a field goal
Biatch call helps jets get a td
O fumbles

Defense
1 punt
4 3 and out
3 turnovers
1 field goal allowed
1 td with jets O start around 50
1 td setup by penalty
1 td

Offense
4 3 and outs
1 6 and out
2 turnovers
2 tds
2 field goals
2 missed field goals
This is a fair point.

However, San Francisco's offense was even worse than ours in that game up until the 4th quarter. The only difference between the two teams in that regard was that their defense did not fold, ours did.

Beantown Bronco
11-02-2010, 12:07 PM
You guys said the same about Jay. Move the ball between the twenties and choke in the red zone. Whats the diff ? We have made major negative strides.

What's the difference? I'll tell you because it's a big one:

Jay was 100% to blame for the redzone struggles when he was here because he was the one turning it over constantly.

Orton? He has ONE...that's right....ONE redzone INT in his entire career.

Jay has about one per every quarter of play.

Al Wilson 4 Mayor
11-02-2010, 12:31 PM
I think Kyle could fetch a 1st and a 4th this coming offseason.

Rohirrim
11-02-2010, 12:45 PM
Okay. In this mythical world, once Orton is traded for valuable draft picks, who is the QB? Tebow? Wouldn't anybody like to see him conduct an 80 yard drive first (with maybe even a couple of passes thrown in) before they go there?

CEH
11-02-2010, 12:47 PM
Nothing has really changed in Denver reagarding Orton. One more year but he puts up 5000 yards and we still are scoring less than 20 ppg.

Same issue with Cutler. Who cares if Orton isn't throwing red zone picks . He's fumbling and throwing picks before he gets to the Red Zone. Points off the board or points for the other team on the board. Same difference when you look at that we are 22nd in the league in points scored.

Give me 200 yards a game passing and a win over 369 and a loss.

baja
11-02-2010, 12:52 PM
If Tebow was having Orton's season, even with the 2-6 record, most of you people would be drinking kool-aid and<b> using his nuts as a porch swing.

I LOL'ed

Rohirrim
11-02-2010, 12:55 PM
If Tebow was having Orton's season, even with the 2-6 record, most of you people would be drinking kool-aid and using his nuts as a porch swing.

The absolute truth. Rep. :thumbs:

Beantown Bronco
11-02-2010, 12:55 PM
Same issue with Cutler. Who cares if Orton isn't throwing red zone picks . He's fumbling and throwing picks before he gets to the Red Zone. Points off the board or points for the other team on the board. Same difference when you look at that we are 22nd in the league in points scored.

He's averaging 1 turnover per game. Please. You're making it sound like he's turning it over 3+ times per game ala Cutler. He's not.

The "points scored" ranking has a lot more to do with our defense not forcing turnovers and out not so special teams. They are the ones contributing to our bottom of the league starting field position. Not Orton.

baja
11-02-2010, 12:55 PM
Okay. In this mythical world, once Orton is traded for valuable draft picks, who is the QB? Tebow? Wouldn't anybody like to see him conduct an 80 yard drive first (with maybe even a couple of passes thrown in) before they go there?

Much as we'd like it to be the future is not now. That day very well may come we have to wait a reasonable time for it.

Rohirrim
11-02-2010, 12:58 PM
Much as we'd like it to be the future is not now. That day very well may come we have to wait a reasonable time for it.

I just dont understand this Tebow worship. I have yet to see the guy conduct a drive in the NFL.

bendog
11-02-2010, 01:17 PM
The absolute truth. Rep. :thumbs:

Well, Elway or Manning woud fail epically with this roster, so I guess I'm agreeing with you. Tebow might lose a spleen playing now.

baja
11-02-2010, 01:36 PM
I just dont understand this Tebow worship. I have yet to see the guy conduct a drive in the NFL.

I think he has the elusive "It". Can he play QB in the NFL? Who knows but if he can watch out. I do think this will make or break Josh in Denver though.

CEH
11-02-2010, 01:54 PM
He's averaging 1 turnover per game. Please. You're making it sound like he's turning it over 3+ times per game ala Cutler. He's not.

The "points scored" ranking has a lot more to do with our defense not forcing turnovers and out not so special teams. They are the ones contributing to our bottom of the league starting field position. Not Orton.

I don't care what Cutler does in CHI different team. Let's compare Cutler '08

You can say the same about Cutler in '08. Our D force the 2nd lowest turnovers in NFL history with 13. Cutler in '08 had 18 INTs that's one agame

Not sure who was complaining about our yards in '08 vs points but I brought up the same argument for our O in '08.

Seems like things haven't changes that much

Rohirrim
11-02-2010, 02:21 PM
Much as we'd like it to be the future is not now. That day very well may come we have to wait a reasonable time for it.

That's why I disagreed with using a first on Tebow. If you're going to use a first on a QB, he has to play now. Hell, the way the league is set up right now, any first round pick better be on the field the first season earning his contract. Stafford, Sanchez and Sanford prove the point.

strafen
11-02-2010, 02:25 PM
If Tebow was having Orton's season, even with the 2-6 record, most of you people would be drinking kool-aid and using his nuts as a porch swing.Is not happening with Tebow, but it's surely happening with Orton, isn't it?

baja
11-02-2010, 02:27 PM
That's why I disagreed with using a first on Tebow. If you're going to use a first on a QB, he has to play now. Hell, the way the league is set up right now, any first round pick better be on the field the first season earning his contract. Stafford, Sanchez and Sanford prove the point.

well we gave mostly the extra picks we got for moving down twice and ended up with Bay Bay. Not all that much if he pays off. True we could have gotten some players that would be on the field now but considering where we are in the rebuild and what he could mean to future teams I feel it was worth the shot. Big time gutsy call for for a first time HC. We'll see what happens.

Beantown Bronco
11-02-2010, 04:51 PM
I don't care what Cutler does in CHI different team. Let's compare Cutler '08

You can say the same about Cutler in '08. Our D force the 2nd lowest turnovers in NFL history with 13. Cutler in '08 had 18 INTs that's one agame

Not sure who was complaining about our yards in '08 vs points but I brought up the same argument for our O in '08.

Seems like things haven't changes that much

18 INTs....but you are ignoring fumbles. If we're ignoring those, then Orton is well under the 1 turnover per game ratio.

And let's not bring up 2008. Cutler was dealing with a FAR superior running game and OLine backing him up that year. Give Orton that support this year, or give Cutler this year's support and see what a difference it makes. I can't even imagine.

tsiguy96
11-02-2010, 04:53 PM
tebows only getting like 8.7 million guaranteed.

WolfpackGuy
11-02-2010, 05:17 PM
That's why I disagreed with using a first on Tebow. If you're going to use a first on a QB, he has to play now. Hell, the way the league is set up right now, any first round pick better be on the field the first season earning his contract. Stafford, Sanchez and Sanford prove the point.

There were more pressing needs than drafting an extreme home makeover project QB.

It's just disappointing that all this wheeling and dealing the last two years has only netted a few players when they should've been drafting for volume to hedge their bets.