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View Full Version : Firing Shanahan during a trade dispute was stupid...


Taco John
10-31-2010, 04:32 PM
I don't need to rant to get my point across. Even if you think that we needed fresh blood in the organization, introducing this kind of uncertainty into an organization at a time when a lock-out is a real possibility was a very poor decision.

This scenario is what I was most worried about around the Shanahan firing, and the hiring of a young head coach. If we were going to fine Shanahan, I would have peferred letting him coach out his contract, and addressing the situation on the other side of the lockout.

fontaine
10-31-2010, 04:47 PM
Except Mike got himself fired by refusing to let Slowik go.

oubronco
10-31-2010, 04:49 PM
Just imagine what this team would be like with Shanny's offense and a real DC with new Defensive players

Rohirrim
10-31-2010, 04:50 PM
After that last three games, I will never regret showing Shanahan the door. He was done here. Let it rest.

baja
10-31-2010, 04:50 PM
I don't need to rant to get my point across. Even if you think that we needed fresh blood in the organization, introducing this kind of uncertainty into an organization at a time when a lock-out is a real possibility was a very poor decision.

This scenario is what I was most worried about around the Shanahan firing, and the hiring of a young head coach. If we were going to fine Shanahan, I would have peferred letting him coach out his contract, and addressing the situation on the other side of the lockout.

When did you think of this really? About 5 minutes ago?

How long before you bump your gutless drunk thread? ;D

Popps
10-31-2010, 04:51 PM
After that last three games, I will never regret showing Shanahan the door. He was done here. Let it rest.

Older, wiser... lock up the thread.

frerottenextelway
10-31-2010, 04:53 PM
Except Mike got himself fired by refusing to let Slowik go.

As owner, Bowlen could've fired Slowik if he wanted to.

WolfpackGuy
10-31-2010, 04:54 PM
Just imagine what this team would be like with Shanny's offense and a real DC with new Defensive players

Too late for that!

Kid A
10-31-2010, 04:56 PM
He was fired a whole two years out from any possible lockout. If the owner feels the current coach isn't moving in the right direction, there is no way he should let him stay on two more seasons just because of some league instability. Whether the decision was a right one or not, I don't think that is something Bowlen should have let weigh on his decision back in 08.

Hercules Rockefeller
10-31-2010, 05:01 PM
Just imagine what this team would be like with Shanny's offense and a real DC with new Defensive players

Shanahan's last 10 drafts (99-08)

Al Wilson
Ian Gold
Reggie Heyward
DJ
Elvis

That's it. Those are the only guys who were worth a **** in this league in a decade of drafts, and you can add in Deltha if you want since he went to a Pro Bowl one year.

How many D coordinators did he go through in that decade?
Robinson
Rhodes
Coyer
Bates
Slowik

Did I forget anyone?

I would take Shanny over anyone on game day calling an offense, but there is absolutely nothing over the past decade with this team that should make anyone think he could make the right hire at DC or draft/sign the right players for that system.

DivineBronco
10-31-2010, 05:02 PM
oh jesus ****ing christ.............have you blacked out the last two years of shannahan.

baja
10-31-2010, 05:05 PM
As owner, Bowlen could've fired Slowik if he wanted to.

Good answer!

I never thought Slowik was the the reason Mike was fired. I'm sure it was a small mountain of concerns that had built up in Bowlen's mind and the way Mike's Broncos played the last three games 08 was the proverbial 'straw'

oubronco
10-31-2010, 05:06 PM
Shanahan's last 10 drafts (99-08)

Al Wilson
Ian Gold
Reggie Heyward
DJ
Elvis

That's it. Those are the only guys who were worth a **** in this league in a decade of drafts, and you can add in Deltha if you want since he went to a Pro Bowl one year.

How many D coordinators did he go through in that decade?
Robinson
Rhodes
Coyer
Bates
Slowik

Did I forget anyone?

I would take Shanny over anyone on game day calling an offense, but there is absolutely nothing over the past decade with this team that should make anyone think he could make the right hire at DC or draft/sign the right players for that system.

I didn't say he would I said "Imagine"

Kaylore
10-31-2010, 05:07 PM
After that last three games, I will never regret showing Shanahan the door. He was done here. Let it rest.

This. Shanahan was done and had lost his way.

Hercules Rockefeller
10-31-2010, 05:08 PM
i didn't say he would i said "imagine"


Maximus
10-31-2010, 05:11 PM
Just imagine what this team would be like with Shanny's offense and a real DC with new Defensive players


you would be mired in mediocrity and in your second half meltdown anyway!

oubronco
10-31-2010, 05:12 PM
you would be mired in mediocrity and in your second half meltdown anyway!

Is what we're enjoying any different?

Maximus
10-31-2010, 05:17 PM
Is what we're enjoying any different?

Not a bit different... which means... The Owner needs the spotlight... food for thought

Popps
10-31-2010, 05:17 PM
you would be mired in mediocrity and in your second half meltdown anyway!

Even a dumb raider fan knows the truth.

loborugger
10-31-2010, 05:18 PM
After that last three games, I will never regret showing Shanahan the door. He was done here. Let it rest.

Absence makes the heart grow fonder.

Rohirrim
10-31-2010, 05:18 PM
Not a bit different... which means... The Owner needs the spotlight... food for thought

Coming from a Raider's fan...

sorry...

:spit:

Popps
10-31-2010, 05:18 PM
You have to love Taco-threads, though. One sillier than the next.

SoCalBronco
10-31-2010, 05:18 PM
Shanahan's last 10 drafts (99-08)

Al Wilson
Ian Gold
Reggie Heyward
DJ
Elvis

That's it. Those are the only guys who were worth a **** in this league in a decade of drafts, and you can add in Deltha if you want since he went to a Pro Bowl one year.

.

IMO, D-Will and Fox were also decent. I know this argument has been raised before and I don't dispute that he drafts better offensive players than defensive players, but I did like an 8 or 10 year analysis of this awhile back and it seemed to suggest that while the hit rate was better on offense, one of the bigger reasons for the relative lack of productive players drafted on D was insufficient resources. I think we drafted significantly more offensive players than defensive players during that time. Shanny made it clear he was going to devote the 09 draft to defense and I believe him. Now, would he have missed on some picks? Probably, but he probably would have hit on a few and as it stood, we only got one good defensive player out of that draft under Josh.

RunSilentRunDeep
10-31-2010, 05:19 PM
Strange time for this thread considering Shanahan just made an epic fool of himself for benching McNabb.

Maximus
10-31-2010, 05:21 PM
Coming from a Raider's fan...

sorry...

:spit:

That's why its serious food for thought....

listopencil
10-31-2010, 05:33 PM
IMO, D-Will and Fox were also decent. I know this argument has been raised before and I don't dispute that he drafts better offensive players than defensive players, but I did like an 8 or 10 year analysis of this awhile back and it seemed to suggest that while the hit rate was better on offense, one of the bigger reasons for the relative lack of productive players drafted on D was insufficient resources. I think we drafted significantly more offensive players than defensive players during that time. Shanny made it clear he was going to devote the 09 draft to defense and I believe him. Now, would he have missed on some picks? Probably, but he probably would have hit on a few and as it stood, we only got one good defensive player out of that draft under Josh.

I wish I could remember who it was on here, but someone went through and looked at our Defensive acquisitions under Shanny. They proved to me that Shanny did spend substantial resources on Defensive players, they just never really worked out. So the effort was there just not the results.

SoCalBronco
10-31-2010, 05:34 PM
I wish I could remember who it was on here, but someone went through and looked at our Defensive acquisitions under Shanny. They proved to me that Shanny did spend substantial resources on Defensive players, they just never really worked out. So the effort was there just not the results.

He certainly put resources in from a FA and general spending perspective, but I don't think he committed the sheer number of draft picks to defense that he did to offense. Let me try and find my old analysis of this.

Taco John
10-31-2010, 05:37 PM
I believe we'd be a playoff team right now if we'd have kept Shanahan. This division is weak and we we're well positioned.

loborugger
10-31-2010, 05:39 PM
I believe we'd be a playoff team right now if we'd have kept Shanahan. This division is weak and we we're well positioned.

Ya, we would 5 & 1 and poised for another late season collapse that would end in us either not making the play offs or us going someplace like Indy to get drilled 45 to 6 on wildcard weekend.

oubronco
10-31-2010, 05:40 PM
Ya, we would 5 & 1 and poised for another late season collapse that would end in us either not making the play offs or us going someplace like Indy to get drilled 45 to 6 on wildcard weekend.

What if we had a kickass DC with different D players

Maximus
10-31-2010, 05:43 PM
I believe we'd be a playoff team right now if we'd have kept Shanahan. This division is weak and we we're well positioned.

You've been smoking dope for too long... Put the pipe down! After Elway and TD Left how many playoff games did you win under the Rat? How many defensive coordinators took the brunt of his scapegoat tactics. McDonkey = Shanarat!!!

SoCalBronco
10-31-2010, 05:45 PM
Haven't been able to find that old post, but from 2000-2008, we drafted 38 offensive players and 30 defensive players (and 2 special teamers).

Rohirrim
10-31-2010, 05:46 PM
I believe we'd be a playoff team right now if we'd have kept Shanahan. This division is weak and we we're well positioned.

Hilarious!

Taco John
10-31-2010, 05:51 PM
Hilarious!

Laugh all you want. We're a 2 win team right now. There's every reason to believe we'd be competing for a playoff spot right now if Shanahan was our coach still.

Firing him was stupid.

Rascal
10-31-2010, 05:56 PM
I'd agree that we would be in contention for playoffs and the division if Shanny was still here. For one, our offense was "." close to getting really good, and you would think our defense would have to improve under him at some point. LOL.

oubronco
10-31-2010, 05:56 PM
So if we are in a rebuild mode is it time to gut the whole roster and start over fresh
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jhat01
10-31-2010, 05:56 PM
As stupid as benching McNabb for Rex Grossman???

Rascal
10-31-2010, 05:57 PM
So if we are in a rebuild mode is it time to gut the whole roster and start over fresh
<!-- / message -->

There isn't much to gut to be honest.

Rascal
10-31-2010, 05:57 PM
I didn't like firing Shanny, but I understood it. I'm more pissed we got McDaniels instead of somebody else.

ScottXray
10-31-2010, 05:58 PM
Hilarious!

+1

Without getting fired Shanny would have done more of the Same old same old...and we'd still have Cutler here turning the ball over,although Shanny probably ALSO would have invested in a couple more High picks at QB, or made a trade for whatever (McNabb?) to solve THAT problem. Shannys scheme requires a better than average QB to run it. He never did that well after Elway left. I don't see that changing.

Besides , if he had stuck around, Slowik would have had the coord job for last year, and we would have another change there THIS year.

The thing that might be different is that the ZBS would still be implemented, although we also would have drafted more O-linemen that were "Tweeners" for power blocking, due to the RZ problems.

We might have a few more wins....but not anything substantially better in the long run. Shanny Needed that wake up call.

As for the labor problems ...that was a LONG way out...and probably had NO effect on the decision.

SoCalBronco
10-31-2010, 06:06 PM
I think we would probably be in decent shape with Shanny. Shanny could always field a competitive team no matter what. His coaching acumen alone was worth 2 games over the team's talent level. If he would just commit himself to devoting an ENTIRE draft to defense, which I believe he would have (I think he said as much) in 2009, despite his less than stellar drafting in that area, out of say a good 8 picks, I think we could have turned that into 2 solid starters and 1 contributor (if you go based on his defensive hit rate from 2000-2008). That would be a start. The 2008 defense had three guys that were quality starters in the NFL. We still got to 8 wins somehow with Shanny. You add another two solid starters from the draft and we're making progress. From there, we'd need another starter or two in FA and we'd be on our way (not to a great D, just a serviceable one).

I also believe Shanny would keep the turnovers on offense in relative check. After all, he held Jay's interceptions to only 14 in 2007. We had a fabulous OL, two real good receivers, a great set of TE's, a solid all around back in Hillis and a gifted QB. Between devoting the entire draft to defense and signing a couple solid FA's, we could have made the defense serviceable enough to win 10 games consistently. We were just below that with the worst defense of all time, so its not asking alot.

I like Josh and he's working hard and is a master of pass offense. I STILL want him to get 2011 as one final chance to make the playoffs (yes, even with today's loss, I'll still be patient for one more year), but Shanny is an all-time great and it was a mistake for Bowlen to fire him. I know Taco got alot of flak for the "Gutless Drunk" thread, but personally I think that was his finest hour. Bowlen DESERVED to be called out and CONTINUES to deserve to be called out. The only good thing that comes from all of this is that Bowlen is being ridiculed by fans as he damn well should be. He is responsible for alot of problems on this team, from his two-facedness on multiple issues, to his cheapness in spending in the last decade, to a number of things. He makes it difficult for his coaches to succeed, no matter who the coach is.

gyldenlove
10-31-2010, 06:08 PM
Firing Shanahan was the right move, the franchise was not improving as a whole and his act had gone stale, besides the point he chose Slowick over the Broncos and Bowlen had to put his foot down.

You don't take a team with the second best record in the league and a conference championship appearance and start over with a new QB, the weakness of that team was the defensive front, age at WR, TE and age at OL. From then on in Shanahan was gambling that he could keep the defense playing with not enough talent and develope Cutler into a franchise carrying type player which he didn't manage, the defense fell apart with lack of talent and the offense couldn't carry the team to the postseason.

You can't hang onto a coach because you are afraid of a labor dispute a couple of year in the future, Bowlen had to make a move and hats off to him, he made it.

go_broncos
10-31-2010, 06:11 PM
Bowlen did right decision in firing shanny..he was horrible.
when i see Mcd's play calling and his schemes, I really miss shanny.
Bowlen should have hired a different coach.
Mcd is worse than Tom Cable and Mike Singletary

Atwater His Ass
10-31-2010, 06:16 PM
I'm still shocked Bowlen fired Shanahan. He had some marginal years, but we were always competitive under him and for the first time since Elway, he had the makings of a real scary offense. Not to mention how young they were, the sky being the limit. All he needed from there was to get a middle of the road defense and we'd have been off to the races.

elsid13
10-31-2010, 06:20 PM
As stupid as benching McNabb for Rex Grossman???

People around the DC area have been calling for switch for the last couple of weeks. McNabb has looked extremely bad at times. I have never seen QB throw the ball into the dirt this much at the NFL level. And remember Andy Reid also benched his ass last year too.

WolfpackGuy
10-31-2010, 06:21 PM
Bowlen did right decision in firing shanny..he was horrible.
when i see Mcd's play calling and his schemes, I really miss shanny.
Bowlen should have hired a different coach.
Mcd is worse than Tom Cable and Mike Singletary

One at a time or combined?

LOL

theAPAOps5
10-31-2010, 06:22 PM
Except Mike got himself fired by refusing to let Slowik go.

This. It was a no brainer.

Popps
10-31-2010, 06:23 PM
Hilarious!

It's awesome, isn't it?

I mean, after all these years... I still can't figure out if he really means this stuff. It's been suggested that it's all a ruse.

Either way, you just have to love it.

Popps
10-31-2010, 06:25 PM
I believe we'd be a playoff team right now if we'd have kept Shanahan. This division is weak and we we're well positioned.

I'm going to try to stop laughing and play along....


Dude, Shanahan has MORE talent in DC right now, and that team looks on the verge of ****ting down its own leg. Losing to Detroit and benching your starter in the process?

Yea, he'd be working miracles for us if he were here. Similar to what he did the last couple of years he was here, I'm sure.

Oh, and a news-flash for anyone else not paying attention... KC and Oakland might not be that bad, and San Diego looks like they're waking up from their usual early-season hibernation.

gunns
10-31-2010, 06:27 PM
Absence makes the heart grow fonder.

No, it doesn't. 10 years, average 9-7 WL and one playoff win. Not sorry at all he's gone and after today's benching of McNabb because he thought Grossman gave them the better chance in the two minute drill, I'm even more sure.

go_broncos
10-31-2010, 06:29 PM
Mcd is the worst coach in the NFL.Even bills are better than us.
8 more games..if there is no improvement, bowlen will fire him.

frerottenextelway
10-31-2010, 06:31 PM
I miss Dan Reeves.

baja
10-31-2010, 06:33 PM
I miss John Ralston's drafting.

gunns
10-31-2010, 06:47 PM
I'm still shocked Bowlen fired Shanahan. He had some marginal years, but we were always competitive under him and for the first time since Elway, he had the makings of a real scary offense. Not to mention how young they were, the sky being the limit. All he needed from there was to get a middle of the road defense and we'd have been off to the races.

This was Shanahan's philosophy and why there were marginal years and why they would have continued. The one really good year we had in those 10 was because of the defense. We beat NE in that playoff game because of the defense. Until the Broncos address the defense as strenously as they have the offense for the past 12 years, we can expect more of the same.

Taco John
10-31-2010, 06:54 PM
I'm going to try to stop laughing and play along....




Nothing to laugh about. Shanahan has taken every quarterback he's ever coached to the playoffs. We were well on our way.

broncosteven
10-31-2010, 07:16 PM
This. Shanahan was done and had lost his way.

I agree, I am at peace with Shanny being gone but I think everyone is starting to see that you can't just pop in "the next up and coming young talent" and win. It is looking like a lock out year actually won't be a bad thing considering this team is not contending any time soon and we don't have to worry about the "Window closing" on a championship due to the lockout.

Hopefully if there is a lockout the FO will have time to evaluate talent and come up with a real plan other than just hiring a HC because they were afraid that another AFC west team was going to get him.

Dedhed
10-31-2010, 07:31 PM
As owner, Bowlen could've fired Slowik if he wanted to.
He did.

And he did it one better by firing the guy who was far enough out of touch to think that Slowik was the right guy and the defense was "just a couple of pieces away".

Dedhed
10-31-2010, 07:32 PM
Nothing to laugh about. Shanahan has taken every quarterback he's ever coached to the playoffs. We were well on our way.
Except boy wonder of course.

Dedhed
10-31-2010, 07:34 PM
I believe we'd be a playoff team right now if we'd have kept Shanahan. This division is weak and we we're well positioned.I believe that if I could predict the future, I'd win the lottery every day. What's your point?

I thought we were pretty well positioned with a 3 game division lead with 3 weeks left in the season and the Bills and Raiders on the schedule.

frerottenextelway
10-31-2010, 07:37 PM
He did.

And he did it one better by firing the guy who was far enough out of touch to think that Slowik was the right guy and the defense was "just a couple of pieces away".

Imo, it doesn't seem to be working out all that well.

Dedhed
10-31-2010, 07:40 PM
Imo, it doesn't seem to be working out all that well.

Time will tell. I prefer trying a different approach as opposed to beating my head against a wall hoping for things to change under Shanahan when they hadn't for over a decade.

TheReverend
10-31-2010, 07:42 PM
This thread is silly. Firing Shanahan at ANY time is stupid.

Simply put: You DON'T fire Hall of Fame coaches.

EVER

Dedhed
10-31-2010, 07:45 PM
This thread is silly. Firing Shanahan at ANY time is stupid.

Simply put: You DON'T fire Hall of Fame coaches.

EVER

Absolute, you let them ride of into the sunset trailing the tattered remains of your franchise with them. Right Penn State, right Florida State.

You never cut a hall of fame player, even if he's DEAD, you DON'T do it. ALWAYS LIVE IN THE PAST ALWAYS!

TheReverend
10-31-2010, 07:48 PM
Absolute, you let them ride of into the sunset trailing the tattered remains of your franchise with them. Right Penn State, right Florida State.

You never cut a hall of fame player, even if he's DEAD, you DON'T do it. ALWAYS LIVE IN THE PAST ALWAYS!

4-12 franchise in entirely new offensive and defensive systems is 4-4.

8-8 franchise it's second year in the system is 2-6.

You're really making a convincing argument.

orangemonkey
10-31-2010, 07:52 PM
I agree, I am at peace with Shanny being gone but I think everyone is starting to see that you can't just pop in "the next up and coming young talent" and win. It is looking like a lock out year actually won't be a bad thing considering this team is not contending any time soon and we don't have to worry about the "Window closing" on a championship due to the lockout.

Hopefully if there is a lockout the FO will have time to evaluate talent and come up with a real plan other than just hiring a HC because they were afraid that another AFC west team was going to get him.

You can plug in "young talent" at head coach and expect to win but you can never give them a leash like Bowlen gave McDaniels. I can't imagine a bigger mistake. One of the things that makes the Steelers organization so great is that they never give one person too much power - see Tomlin.

Dedhed
10-31-2010, 07:56 PM
4-12 franchise in entirely new offensive and defensive systems is 4-4.

8-8 franchise it's second year in the system is 2-6.

You're really making a convincing argument.

Well, Mcdaniels was 6 of his first 8 games, so he's better than whatever coach you're talking about. Convincing argument:wave:

TheReverend
10-31-2010, 08:03 PM
Well, Mcdaniels was 6 of his first 8 games, so he's better than whatever coach you're talking about. Convincing argument:wave:

You're messing around, having fun with that situation or genuinely that stupid?

Dedhed
10-31-2010, 08:03 PM
see Tomlin.

Tomlin inherited a super bowl championship team. McDaniels inherited a team completely devoid of defensive talent, save Champ, and an offensive roster with no leadership or depth running schemes that were as tired as Al Davis staff butt-wiper.

Lets try to compare apples to apples folks.

Dedhed
10-31-2010, 08:04 PM
You're messing around, having fun with that situation or genuinely that stupid?

Just holding a mirror up to your argument.

TheReverend
10-31-2010, 08:08 PM
Just holding a mirror up to your argument.

Mike's second year in Denver he had the team 13-3.

Just holding a mirror up to your argument, stoner phaggot.

Dedhed
10-31-2010, 08:11 PM
Mike's second year in Denver he had the team 13-3.

Just holding a mirror up to your argument, stoner phaggot.
Sure sign of a winner; can't debate, has to name call. You're a champ.

Did Mike have the best QB in the history of the NFL that year?

TheReverend
10-31-2010, 08:15 PM
Sure sign of a winner; can't debate, has to name call. You're a champ.

Did Mike have the best QB in the history of the NFL that year?

Can't debate? 13-3 vs 2-6. Thought that was pretty cut and dry.

And let's be honest, at 36 John was far from the best QB in the NFL.

Dedhed
10-31-2010, 08:17 PM
Can't debate? 13-3 vs 2-6. Thought that was pretty cut and dry.

And let's be honest, at 36 John was far from the best QB in the NFL.

What does Mike's record in his 2nd year in Denver have to do with firing him?

oubronco
10-31-2010, 08:17 PM
Absolute, you let them ride of into the sunset trailing the tattered remains of your franchise with them. Right Penn State, right Florida State.

You never cut a hall of fame player, even if he's DEAD, you DON'T do it. ALWAYS LIVE IN THE PAST ALWAYS!

Is McD a hall of fame coach

TheReverend
10-31-2010, 08:19 PM
What does Mike's record in his 2nd year in Denver have to do with firing him?

What does McD's first six games in Denver have to do with the direction he takes this team, especially in comparison to the immediate turn around we're seeing in Washington?

You're REALLY not bright, fyi.

Dedhed
10-31-2010, 08:20 PM
Is McD a hall of fame coach

Not yet, but I don't think that's relevant to this conversation at all.

eddie mac
10-31-2010, 08:20 PM
I wonder would Pat like to turn the clock back on this and a few other things over the past 2 years???

Rohirrim
10-31-2010, 08:21 PM
Laugh all you want. We're a 2 win team right now. There's every reason to believe we'd be competing for a playoff spot right now if Shanahan was our coach still.

Firing him was stupid.

And those thirty or so players who are no longer in the NFL would still be on our roster.

TheReverend
10-31-2010, 08:21 PM
I wonder would Pat like to turn the clock back on this and a few other things over the past 2 years???

Do you really have to wonder?

Dedhed
10-31-2010, 08:22 PM
What does McD's first six games in Denver have to do with the direction he takes this team Nothing

Since you didn't answer, I'll ask again. What does Mike's record in his 2nd season in Denver have to do with his firing?

Rohirrim
10-31-2010, 08:23 PM
This thread is silly. Firing Shanahan at ANY time is stupid.

Simply put: You DON'T fire Hall of Fame coaches.

EVER

Maybe Don Shula is still available?

WolfpackGuy
10-31-2010, 08:23 PM
I wonder would Pat like to turn the clock back on this and a few other things over the past 2 years???

And subtract all those scotches he drank since then?

You must be crazy.

eddie mac
10-31-2010, 08:23 PM
Do you really have to wonder?

I do actually Rev considering I'm of the opinion he's as stubborn as the joke he hired to replace Mike.

TheReverend
10-31-2010, 08:24 PM
And those thirty or so players who are no longer in the NFL would still be on our roster.

If you started cutting players on the current defense, it'd be damn near identical results.

In fact, Doom, DJ and Champ are the only true quality players left and are all Shanahan hold overs. The next tier has an aged Dawkins, Ayers and McBath. The following tier has absolutely no one.

Dedhed
10-31-2010, 08:24 PM
I wonder would Pat like to turn the clock back on this and a few other things over the past 2 years???

ALWAYS LIVE IN THE PAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why would you turn the clock back 2 years when you could just turn it back a dozen to when Shanny was still effective as a Head Coach and TD still had knees. Wouldn't that be easier.

TheReverend
10-31-2010, 08:27 PM
Nothing

Since you didn't answer, I'll ask again. What does Mike's record in his 2nd season in Denver have to do with his firing?

I'll be damned. Weed apparently really does inhibit short term memory.

I do actually Rev considering I'm of the opinion he's as stubborn as the joke he hired to replace Mike.

First off, I'm still convinced he only made the decision to fire Mike based off the Woody Paige article claiming Mike had more control over the Broncos than Pat.

Secondly, if he could turn back time I think Pat would either stfu and sit back in his chair, or he NEEDED to reassert himself, he would've gone after Rex.

I don't think anyone is looking at McDaniels as a positive influence for a ball club right now.

Rohirrim
10-31-2010, 08:27 PM
ALWAYS LIVE IN THE PAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why would you turn the clock back 2 years when you could just turn it back a dozen to when Shanny was still effective as a Head Coach and TD still had knees. Wouldn't that be easier.

I would like to turn back the clock to when we had TD and Elway and Zimmerman, Nalen, Sharpe, Eddie, Rod Smith, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Archer81
10-31-2010, 08:30 PM
I would like to turn back the clock to when we had TD and Elway and Zimmerman, Nalen, Sharpe, Eddie, Rod Smith, etc. etc. etc. etc.

Elway, TD, Griffith, McCaffrey, Smith, Sharpe, Zimmerman, Schlereth, Nalen, Neil, Jones...

Memories...like the corner of my mind...

:Broncos:

Drek
10-31-2010, 08:31 PM
Just imagine what this team would be like with Shanny's offense and a real DC with new Defensive players
Just imagine what this team would be like if a prime John Elway was still our QB, Terrell Davis was given cyborg legs and could still run like a 23 year old, and we cloned Steve Atwater to play safety.

Its fun to make pretend, isn't it!

IMO, D-Will and Fox were also decent. I know this argument has been raised before and I don't dispute that he drafts better offensive players than defensive players, but I did like an 8 or 10 year analysis of this awhile back and it seemed to suggest that while the hit rate was better on offense, one of the bigger reasons for the relative lack of productive players drafted on D was insufficient resources. I think we drafted significantly more offensive players than defensive players during that time. Shanny made it clear he was going to devote the 09 draft to defense and I believe him. Now, would he have missed on some picks? Probably, but he probably would have hit on a few and as it stood, we only got one good defensive player out of that draft under Josh.

You mean that talented young corner Shanahan traded for 7th when he requested a trade because he wasn't given a chance to compete as a starter? Meanwhile Shanahan kept paying lip service to the mantra "best guy plays" while handing Dre Bly a starting job on a silver platter. Yeah, he wasn't going to be here no matter what.

Mike Shanahan punched his own ticket out of town when the "mastermind" ego took over and he stopped practicing what he preached. He called Dale Carter a dirty player who would never wear Broncos orange and blue. Then he gives Carter more money than any other Bronco on the roster. He didn't give young guys the chance to compete repeatedly, such as the above Foxworth example. He changed DCs like underwear, never once accepting that his inability to staff a defense was the real problem. Probably best of all, he uses two first round picks the season after we go to the AFCC to draft a new QB, who he puts into the middle of a playoff push.

And people wonder why he's not here anymore. I'll always respect what Shanahan did here and will argue with anyone that he's at least a top 5 X's and O's coach in NFL history, a first ballot HOF coach to me without hesitation, but his last several years here where a disgrace to that legacy.

broncosteven
10-31-2010, 08:34 PM
And those thirty or so players who are no longer in the NFL would still be on our roster.

Someone could argue that there are a good 20-30 players on our roster who would be out of the NFL if mCd lost his gig.

Rohirrim
10-31-2010, 08:36 PM
Someone could argue that there are a good 20-30 players on our roster who would be out of the NFL if mCd lost his gig.

I wouldn't argue against Jarvis Moss hitting the road.

Dedhed
10-31-2010, 08:38 PM
I'll be damned. Weed apparently really does inhibit short term memory.


Still no answer as to what Shanahan's record in his 2nd year has to do with him getting fired 14 (or whatever) years later.

And, so you know, your weed takes are amazingly original. Believe me, I've never heard anyone on this forum turn to a weed or "DEADHEAD" take when they're utterly failing in debate.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-31-2010, 08:39 PM
Someone could argue that there are a good 20-30 players on our roster who would be out of the NFL if mCd lost his gig.

I would go on record saying just that.

Rohirrim
10-31-2010, 08:40 PM
I would go on record saying just that.

You could probably make that argument for every team not in the top ten.

Dedhed
10-31-2010, 08:41 PM
Someone could argue that there are a good 20-30 players on our roster who would be out of the NFL if mCd lost his gig.Sure. One could probably argue that about any rebuilding franchise, but it would be pure conjecture.

It wouldn't be an actuality like Shanahan's guys are.

TheReverend
10-31-2010, 08:42 PM
Still no answer as to what Shanahan's record in his 2nd year has to do with him getting fired 14 (or whatever) years later.

And, so you know, your weed takes are amazingly original. Believe me, I've never heard anyone on this forum turn to a weed or "DEADHEAD" take when they're utterly failing in debate.

Okay, I'll go nice and slow.

I made lateral comparisons of Mike's turnaround with a poor Washington team despite dramatic system changes, and Josh's second year in Denver with continuity.

Then you said "Well Josh started 6-0!" (that's where that comment that you later said had nothing to do with anything came from... it came from YOU)

So I replied with Mike was 13-3 in his second year with the Broncos... taking your only obscurely meaningful comparison even further.

You trackin now, touch of grey?

Dedhed
10-31-2010, 08:43 PM
I would go on record saying just that.

I would like to go on record as saying that the team who finishes with the worst record will probably have the ability to draft a top college player, and that player will likely take the job of someone on that teams roster.

TheReverend
10-31-2010, 08:48 PM
You could probably make that argument for every team not in the top ten.

Maybe Xanders can pop a rod about it again at his next stop.

Dedhed
10-31-2010, 08:50 PM
Okay, I'll go nice and slow.

I made lateral comparisons of Mike's turnaround with a poor Washington team despite dramatic system changes, and Josh's second year in Denver with continuity.

Then you said "Well Josh started 6-0!" (that's where that comment that you later said had nothing to do with anything came from... it came from YOU)

So I replied with Mike was 13-3 in his second year with the Broncos... taking your only obscurely meaningful comparison even further.

You trackin now, touch of grey?You're lost bro.

You never even grasped the point of the 6-0 comment, which, to get you up to speed, was in the spirit of irony to point out how stupid your lateral comparison was. Then you clung to that ironic comment as if it were literal while I moved on to actual debate.

Do you care to answer the question now that you're up to speed?

Hulamau
10-31-2010, 08:53 PM
IMO, D-Will and Fox were also decent. I know this argument has been raised before and I don't dispute that he drafts better offensive players than defensive players, but I did like an 8 or 10 year analysis of this awhile back and it seemed to suggest that while the hit rate was better on offense, one of the bigger reasons for the relative lack of productive players drafted on D was insufficient resources. I think we drafted significantly more offensive players than defensive players during that time. Shanny made it clear he was going to devote the 09 draft to defense and I believe him. Now, would he have missed on some picks? Probably, but he probably would have hit on a few and as it stood, we only got one good defensive player out of that draft under Josh.

The other issue too is that for the most part we drafted in the middle to upper third of the first and subsequent rounds during that last 15+ years. There are exceptions but when that happens you MUST hit significantly more on your picks and FAs to sustain building and maintaining a truly core competitive team that can go deep in the play offs or threaten too most every year.

Shanny wasnt good enough to do that. Specially on the defensive side of the ball. AS painful as it may be to endure on occasion the fastest way to rebuild core strength if with a deep draft and higher picks .. meaning some a couple losing seasons to pay the piper.

San Diego did that as well as many other teams. KC looks to be doing so and perhaps even the Fade is as well, though time will tell there? You STILL need a great coach and solid FO to pull it all together consistently, but its possible losing this year and scoring a consistently higher caliber draft as a result might pay off big time long term for us as well in restocking the front 7... Assumming, of course, the right high spot picks are made in the spots we have this year?

We definitely need new Oline coaches and I trust Beadles and Walton will make a major leap in year two and we pick up another stud tackle or guard to replace Hochstein in FA or the draft. Otherwise it doesn't matter so much what RB we put back there.

ColoradoDarin
10-31-2010, 09:03 PM
http://www.staronion.com/maiev/img/double-facepalm.jpg

This thread is full of fail.

TheReverend
10-31-2010, 09:03 PM
You're lost bro.

You never even grasped the point of the 6-0 comment, which, to get you up to speed, was in the spirit of irony to point out how stupid your lateral comparison was. Then you clung to that ironic comment as if it were literal while I moved on to actual debate.

Do you care to answer the question now that you're up to speed?

Oh I see. Completely lateral comparisons are stupid when McD is on the losing side.

Gotcha.

Sadly, you're probably gonna have to get used to McDaniels on the losing side... that seems to be all he does.

Dedhed
10-31-2010, 09:07 PM
Oh I see. Completely lateral comparisons are stupid when McD is on the losing side.


Okay, now it's clear that you can't keep up, so I'm just going to leave now.

Malcontent
10-31-2010, 09:11 PM
After that last three games, I will never regret showing Shanahan the door. He was done here. Let it rest.

Agree with this.

TheReverend
10-31-2010, 09:16 PM
Okay, now it's clear that you can't keep up, so I'm just going to leave now, pack a bowl, grab some Cherry Garcia and pretend I'm right while singin "I will get by".

Finished your thought bro.

Hulamau
10-31-2010, 09:18 PM
IMO, D-Will and Fox were also decent. I know this argument has been raised before and I don't dispute that he drafts better offensive players than defensive players, but I did like an 8 or 10 year analysis of this awhile back and it seemed to suggest that while the hit rate was better on offense, one of the bigger reasons for the relative lack of productive players drafted on D was insufficient resources. I think we drafted significantly more offensive players than defensive players during that time. Shanny made it clear he was going to devote the 09 draft to defense and I believe him. Now, would he have missed on some picks? Probably, but he probably would have hit on a few and as it stood, we only got one good defensive player out of that draft under Josh.

Agree with a lot of your point s SoCal and it may have been true that Shanny would have focused more on D in the draft .. I would have hoped so! But fact is too his track record on D had been spotty and with Slowik tied into the mix I have my doubts.

In any event, the 'what haves' 'should haves' about Shanny overlooks the reality that he was getting burned out and needed a break and a change of scene worse than anyone. Hes a great game day coach and I'll always love Shanny but even he will acknowledge it was time for him to step back and re-evaluate the league.

The question still remains open if Josh becomes the real answer but there is no question Shanny had to go when he did. The players had stopped listening to his tired monologues and platitudes as well. Shanny has benefited greatly by the change as well.

Josh does, and should, get one more full year to show he can turn this ship around,, or not. The consequence of making such a top to bottom change with bringing Josh here is this major change in philosophy and need to rebuild the entire team and that does take time.

We need one more good draft and FA period and seasoning on these picks from last year and this year before we can tell more accurately whether Josh is on the right track. Regardless whether we lose the rest of out games this year or not!

It IS a painful and unsettling process to go through this, but it would be the height of folly to can Josh now, specially in light of the major influence our terrible bad luck with injuries have been from early in training camp on through now have had on our record and performance this year and the last 4 games in particular.

With just a normal year of injuries we would easily have won two, if not three, more of these games we've managed to lose. Including the Jets, todays game and likely the Jags.

But the injuries have directly resulted in two of the TDs today and at least three last week, and definitely were the difference in not being able to pull the win out against the Jets.

Sooo, my best advice for all is to step back and see the forest for the trees as well. It IS possible Josh's mistakes and his youth will be too much to overcome, and then yet another painful change is needed at end of 2011. But I'd hate to give up on him just when we've made it through the worst part and he is ready to take off with this team in 2011 and beyond.

PLus losing Josh now puts Tebow at great risk. He Needs Josh to develop him as I think everyone can agree he's a master QB coach. Even if you feel Josh has to go before long, you don't want him gone before Tebow has matured into this league under Josh's care.

I'd rather have two lost seasons if the end result was possibly another 'Elwayesque' type QB for the ages for the following 15 years to build around. At least we need time to see if Tebow can become that or not before possibly cutting ties with Josh!

The focus now should be far more on what needs to be done for him to succeed and discussing those efforts the rest of this season rather than trying to run him out of town this year as the only and 'best' short-sighted 'solution'.

At least thats my view.

baja
10-31-2010, 09:55 PM
Agree with a lot of your point s SoCal and it may have been true that Shanny would have focused more on D in the draft .. I would have hoped so! But fact is too his track record on D had been spotty and with Slowik tied into the mix I have my doubts.

In any event, the 'what haves' 'should haves' about Shanny overlooks the reality that he was getting burned out and needed a break and a change of scene worse than anyone. Hes a great game day coach and I'll always love Shanny but even he will acknowledge it was time for him to step back and re-evaluate the league.

The question still remains open if Josh becomes the real answer but there is no question Shanny had to go when he did. The players had stopped listening to his tired monologues and platitudes as well. Shanny has benefited greatly by the change as well.

Josh does, and should, get one more full year to show he can turn this ship around,, or not. The consequence of making such a top to bottom change with bringing Josh here is this major change in philosophy and need to rebuild the entire team and that does take time.

We need one more good draft and FA period and seasoning on these picks from last year and this year before we can tell more accurately whether Josh is on the right track. Regardless whether we lose the rest of out games this year or not!

It IS a painful and unsettling process to go through this, but it would be the height of folly to can Josh now, specially in light of the major influence our terrible bad luck with injuries have been from early in training camp on through now have had on our record and performance this year and the last 4 games in particular.

With just a normal year of injuries we would easily have won two, if not three, more of these games we've managed to lose. Including the Jets, todays game and likely the Jags.

But the injuries have directly resulted in two of the TDs today and at least three last week, and definitely were the difference in not being able to pull the win out against the Jets.

Sooo, my best advice for all is to step back and see the forest for the trees as well. It IS possible Josh's mistakes and his youth will be too much to overcome, and then yet another painful change is needed at end of 2011. But I'd hate to give up on him just when we've made it through the worst part and he is ready to take off with this team in 2011 and beyond.

PLus losing Josh now puts Tebow at great risk. He Needs Josh to develop him as I think everyone can agree he's a master QB coach. Even if you feel Josh has to go before long, you don't want him gone before Tebow has matured into this league under Josh's care.

I'd rather have two lost seasons if the end result was possibly another 'Elwayesque' type QB for the ages for the following 15 years to build around. At least we need time to see if Tebow can become that or not before possibly cutting ties with Josh!

<b>The focus now should be far more on what needs to be done for him to succeed and discussing those efforts the rest of this season rather than trying to run him out of town this year as the only and 'best' short-sighted 'solution'.

At least thats my view.


this.

It's the best course of action. These are hard times and it's hard to be patient with this but it's the only sane course of action.

Taco John
10-31-2010, 09:59 PM
The question still remains open if Josh becomes the real answer...




This is no longer an open question. Josh McDaniels is a failed experiment. It's unfortunate, but the situation is what it is.

Meck77
11-01-2010, 02:18 AM
Props to the Bronco fans that made this game in London. It's so much easier to be an internet fan and have all the answers from the comfort of our couch.

24champ
11-01-2010, 03:05 AM
I appreciate Mike's place in the Broncos Franchise, he brought us 2 Super Bowls but it was time to let him go. Looking back at it, he stayed a couple seasons too long.

24champ
11-01-2010, 03:09 AM
Just imagine what this team would be like if a prime John Elway was still our QB, Terrell Davis was given cyborg legs and could still run like a 23 year old, and we cloned Steve Atwater to play safety.

Its fun to make pretend, isn't it!


Hilarious!

I swear, some people cling to the past way too much. Clinging to Shanny, Hillis, Cutler and so on.

fdf
11-01-2010, 03:25 AM
Just imagine what this team would be like with Shanny's offense and a real DC with new Defensive players


Who's on the OL. Whose on the DL in your fantasy team?

tsiguy96
11-01-2010, 04:19 AM
shanahan benched donovan mcnabb for rex grossman so grossman could run the 2 minute drill. wonder....

Drek
11-01-2010, 05:27 AM
This is no longer an open question. Josh McDaniels is a failed experiment. It's unfortunate, but the situation is what it is.

He's only one and a half seasons in Taco. If you looked at Shanahan's first coaching gig it doesn't look much better. Jimmy Johnson sucked when he first took over the Cowboys too. There are dozens of examples where a coach didn't get the job done for years one and two only to turn it around the third year and make **** happen.

McDaniels is a very good game planner. We saw that in the 6-0 start last year and in how well we played Indy, NYJ, and Tennessee. The problem this season is that no one is healthy and no one is playing disciplined football. We'll see if he can turn that around in 2011. There is a far greater than zero chance that he does.

Jesterhole
11-01-2010, 05:50 AM
Bowlen screwed up, period. Shanahan will go down as one of the greatest NFL head coaches of all time. He was already the best Bronco coach by a wide margin.

Replacing a hall of famer with a piece of complete shiite like McDaniels will go down as one of the most bone headed moves in sports history.

And idiots like Baja will still be cheering for the douche.

Rohirrim
11-01-2010, 05:56 AM
Agree with a lot of your point s SoCal and it may have been true that Shanny would have focused more on D in the draft .. I would have hoped so! But fact is too his track record on D had been spotty and with Slowik tied into the mix I have my doubts.

In any event, the 'what haves' 'should haves' about Shanny overlooks the reality that he was getting burned out and needed a break and a change of scene worse than anyone. Hes a great game day coach and I'll always love Shanny but even he will acknowledge it was time for him to step back and re-evaluate the league.

The question still remains open if Josh becomes the real answer but there is no question Shanny had to go when he did. The players had stopped listening to his tired monologues and platitudes as well. Shanny has benefited greatly by the change as well.

Josh does, and should, get one more full year to show he can turn this ship around,, or not. The consequence of making such a top to bottom change with bringing Josh here is this major change in philosophy and need to rebuild the entire team and that does take time.

We need one more good draft and FA period and seasoning on these picks from last year and this year before we can tell more accurately whether Josh is on the right track. Regardless whether we lose the rest of out games this year or not!

It IS a painful and unsettling process to go through this, but it would be the height of folly to can Josh now, specially in light of the major influence our terrible bad luck with injuries have been from early in training camp on through now have had on our record and performance this year and the last 4 games in particular.

With just a normal year of injuries we would easily have won two, if not three, more of these games we've managed to lose. Including the Jets, todays game and likely the Jags.

But the injuries have directly resulted in two of the TDs today and at least three last week, and definitely were the difference in not being able to pull the win out against the Jets.

Sooo, my best advice for all is to step back and see the forest for the trees as well. It IS possible Josh's mistakes and his youth will be too much to overcome, and then yet another painful change is needed at end of 2011. But I'd hate to give up on him just when we've made it through the worst part and he is ready to take off with this team in 2011 and beyond.

PLus losing Josh now puts Tebow at great risk. He Needs Josh to develop him as I think everyone can agree he's a master QB coach. Even if you feel Josh has to go before long, you don't want him gone before Tebow has matured into this league under Josh's care.

I'd rather have two lost seasons if the end result was possibly another 'Elwayesque' type QB for the ages for the following 15 years to build around. At least we need time to see if Tebow can become that or not before possibly cutting ties with Josh!

The focus now should be far more on what needs to be done for him to succeed and discussing those efforts the rest of this season rather than trying to run him out of town this year as the only and 'best' short-sighted 'solution'.

At least thats my view.

Except, in this day and age, no team can afford to spend three draft picks to trade up into the first and take a QB who then requires three years to retrain to get on the field. What you want out of a QB is what the Jets got out of Sanchez or the Lions out of Stafford - first year payoff on the investment. Tebow was a huge mistake. If you are going to groom a QB for three years, draft him in the third round, or beyond. Like it or not, Tebow is Josh's anchor.

Let's put it this way, some team will take Andrew Luck in next year's draft and he will be winning games for them the following season. Josh will still be working on Tebow and trying to get him ready to play.

barryr
11-01-2010, 08:13 AM
Firing Shanahan was the right move. He is already making bizarre moves with the Skins. Bench McNabb with a few minutes left for Grossman because "he knows the 2 minute offense better and gives us a better chance to win?" Rex Grossman? Yikes.

baja
11-01-2010, 08:23 AM
On one of our Marlin fishing trips Big Mike, as he goes by here in Cabo, said to me he could turn Rex Grossmen into a HOF QB if he had him for a year to coach up.

Big Mike has always lacked patience with his QB prodigies. He started Griese before he was ready and lost the team because of it. He started Cutler before he was ready and lost the locker room once again. Now in Washington he pulls a well respected popular vet for he newest prodigy when the game is already likely lost. Shanny made a move that can only have a bad effect with little chance of a good thing happening.

bendog
11-01-2010, 08:34 AM
I don't need to rant to get my point across. Even if you think that we needed fresh blood in the organization, introducing this kind of uncertainty into an organization at a time when a lock-out is a real possibility was a very poor decision.

This scenario is what I was most worried about around the Shanahan firing, and the hiring of a young head coach. If we were going to fine Shanahan, I would have peferred letting him coach out his contract, and addressing the situation on the other side of the lockout.

How do we know that it wasn't really about cutting the payroll to where Den has one of the lowest amounts of dead money backloaded onto the cap? Bowlen might rationally have decided that shanny wasn't going to get another Lombardi in Denver, but a blind monkey can see Den is not bringing in the caliber of players it did. Freaking Savior, they just lost to a 1-6 team with a third string qb and the worst coach in the NFL ....

Jesterhole
11-01-2010, 08:39 AM
How do we know that it wasn't really about cutting the payroll to where Den has one of the lowest amounts of dead money backloaded onto the cap? Bowlen might rationally have decided that shanny wasn't going to get another Lombardi in Denver, but a blind monkey can see Den is not bringing in the caliber of players it did. Freaking Savior, they just lost to a 1-6 team with a third string qb and the worst coach in the NFL ....

2nd worst coach...

orangenblue
11-01-2010, 09:55 AM
another question, why the H E L L did wannabe baby Belchik run Nolan out of town? IDIOT!!!!!!