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View Full Version : Did Bowlen screw this up?


BroncoBuff
10-27-2010, 11:19 PM
First time head coach, on any level. But instead of concentrating his attentions exclusively on the on-field product, Josh has done the drafting and made the trades, and their (mostly) negative results is a lot for him to carry, a lot of added pressure.

As I've said from Day One, it's not fair to Josh ... Bowlen let him down by not stepping up and hiring an experienced GM, and now the hot seat is that much hotter.

Zoobie
10-27-2010, 11:34 PM
I think initially he should have hired a GM before making any other hires. I am hoping Josh "steps back" a bit so to speak as far as front office moves and focuses on coaching. It's nothing against McD, but he all ready has enough on his plate without trying to run our entire off season as well.

strafen
10-27-2010, 11:47 PM
I think initially he should have hired a GM before making any other hires. I am hoping Josh "steps back" a bit so to speak as far as front office moves and focuses on coaching. It's nothing against McD, but he all ready has enough on his plate without trying to run our entire off season as well.The problem is, Xanders is not that type of GM.
Personnel evaluation is not Xander's forte.
He's more like a salary cap and contract structure negotiator guru...

BroncoDoug
10-27-2010, 11:48 PM
Ed. Reed.

SoCalBronco
10-28-2010, 12:02 AM
It probably would have been better if Bowlen hired a real GM because a) that's what he promised fans and b) it would have allowed Josh to focus more on coaching.

However, it does not appear that our problems mainly stem from huge personnel mistakes (well...let me qualify that, at least not from the FA acquisition perspective). The Josh record on acquiring FA's is a positive one, on the whole. The general tenor of our FA acquisitions have been proven veterans that come either relatively cheaply, or have moderately expensive contracts but for only a limited amount of years to insure against the risk. The veterans we've brought in that fit one of these two situations have been generally successful (Dawkins, Hill, Goodman, A. Davis last year, Fields last year, Lloyd, Gaffney etc.). They did spend a bit more money on the DL with this general strategy this year and the results were not as desired, but they haven't been terrible acquisitions outside of Green (Bannan is solid, J. Williams is serviceable if he's used on a limited basis) and as noted earlier, the deals are short to make up for the slightly higher salaries.

With regard to drafting, their record is still too early to assess. Like most teams, they've had hits and misses. Obviously, Smith is the big sore thumb that sticks out and Moreno is still a question mark. It will take a few years to assess how well they're doing in that area, since they've basically forced alot of these kids to start or at least substantially contribute probably before they are ready to. This is obviously seen most clearly on the OL. Ayers is probably their best pick so far and Thomas has already demonstrated massive ability, as well. The real problem from a GM'ing perspective is their general draft strategy. They don't value draft picks and have a "fly by the seat of your pants" draft strategy. There's no long term vision, here. There is no belief that you build through the draft. They burn picks left and right to bring in NE scrubs and to satisfy hard-ons for their most desired targets. It's been noted that they've drafted 9 guys each time the last two years, but that's deceptive in a way. They've only been able to do that because they're constantly leveraging future picks to get more picks now when they realize "oh ****, we need to get something on Day 2 because now we don't have but one or two picks". They've done that a few times now and its not a positive trend. Eventually you will bleed your future stable of picks dry and will really kill some future drafts that way. You can't always keep leveraging away picks and value this way before it kills you and it will kill you. The apparent insistence on getting their top guy at any cost is also foolhardy. This is where an independent and experienced GM would have helped the most. Josh needs to recognize that you cannot seriously go about drafting in the NFL if you only have draft boards of 100 guys and you are willing to do whatever it takes to get your absolute favorites. That's not how it works. You need to create a real board with alternative choices and be willing to settle for the alternative choices when things don't play out the way you thought. You DON'T turn the whole thing upside down just to ensure you get your top choice. That's very short sighted. It's an approach that doesn't respect the idea of quantity. Quantity is almost ALWAYS the best approach in the draft.

It's difficult to know whether an independent GM would have traded away the high profile guys we had. On one hand, each individual instance has its own unique facts. For instance, with Scheffler, it's more a system issue, and that's possibly the case with Hillis as well. An independent GM may well have concluded that if they simply weren't playing at all, it would make sense to move them for some value, although one could also argue an independent GM would have leaned on the coaches to find a way to utilize talented players that maybe weren't perfect fits for the system. An independent GM probably would have handled the crisis situations with Marshall and Cutler better, since most teams usually have disgruntled player issues that do not always result in getting rid of said players.

I do blame Bowlen for most of this, though. He represented to the fan base that this arrangement wouldn't be the case and he backed off on that. He's created alot of problems for this organization and certainly does not make it easier for his coaches. It would be better if he thought for himself rather than having shadowy figures like Joe Ellis constantly whispering in his ear. It's also embarassing to see him complain about mediocre results when he spent most of the past decade right around (or slightly below) the league average in dollars spent. It's also not helpful when you do things like make an about face and pull the plug on contract dicussions with your premier player in midstream. It creates an awkward situation for your coach when the rug is pulled out from underneath him and it doesn't engender good faith on the player end. I don't like Bowlen....at least not in his current form.

The Joker
10-28-2010, 12:08 AM
Fantastic post, Socal.

Popps
10-28-2010, 12:40 AM
SoCal,

Nice post. Agree with some, not with all... but very well put together.

I will just note on the Bailey discussions... we don't know what went on. Something may have some up from a labor perspective that spooked the front office, or... maybe Champ's demands were such that we couldn't go forward with the uncertainty looming.

Keep in mind, this is the same owner that just locked up our best defensive player with a massive contract. So, I'm not sure we can criticize them on the Bailey thing without full info of why talks stalled.

SoCalBronco
10-28-2010, 12:51 AM
SoCal,

Nice post. Agree with some, not with all... but very well put together.

I will just note on the Bailey discussions... we don't know what went on. Something may have some up from a labor perspective that spooked the front office, or... maybe Champ's demands were such that we couldn't go forward with the uncertainty looming.

Keep in mind, this is the same owner that just locked up our best defensive player with a massive contract. So, I'm not sure we can criticize them on the Bailey thing without full info of why talks stalled.

I hear ya on the Bailey thing....its certainly strange and I agree that we don't have a full picture of it. I realize that since Bowlen paid out alot to Dumervil and Kuper this offseason, he may be reluctant to wrap up a third big contract in one offseason with the labor issues looming, although if that were the rationale, it would seem more likely that he simply wouldn't allow them to engage in negotiations at all from the outset (after the other two contracts were done) rather than letting them get close but cutting it off at the last hour. It's correct for you to say we dont know what happened there, but it did put the staff in an awkward spot and Champ did make some harsh comments as a result. It could have been handled by Bowlen better in any case and as I've noted above, that incident is certainly far from the only problem I have with him.

footstepsfrom#27
10-28-2010, 12:56 AM
The real problem from a GM'ing perspective is their general draft strategy. They don't value draft picks and have a "fly by the seat of your pants" draft strategy. There's no long term vision, here. There is no belief that you build through the draft. They burn picks left and right to bring in NE scrubs and to satisfy hard-ons for their most desired targets.
SoCal...why do you suppose Josh takes this approach when it's completely backwards from what he learned under Belichick? If the Pats are anything, they are shrewd manipulators of the draft process and completely committed to building through the draft as opposed to what we're seeing done here.

24champ
10-28-2010, 12:58 AM
SoCal,

Nice post. Agree with some, not with all... but very well put together.

I will just note on the Bailey discussions... we don't know what went on. Something may have some up from a labor perspective that spooked the front office, or... maybe Champ's demands were such that we couldn't go forward with the uncertainty looming.

Keep in mind, this is the same owner that just locked up our best defensive player with a massive contract. So, I'm not sure we can criticize them on the Bailey thing without full info of why talks stalled.

Bailey accepted the Broncos offer, then it was yanked. It wasn't because his demands were outrageous. Champ wanted to be a Bronco for the rest of his career. It was poor form of the Broncos Brass, I am looking at you Joe Ellis, to pull the offer and essentially give the middle finger to Champ and in the process makes Josh looks bad.

This almost comparable to the Cutler situation, except that Champ is handling it like a professional. Though I have to believe he doesn't like how negotiations have been ongoing for 3 years and to have an offer that he agreed upon, to be pulled. Given all that, Joe Ellis needs to be removed.

Now, I would like to see John Elway return in a bigger and more hands on role and take over the Football Operations side of things. I don't know about his ability to become owner of the Broncos, with that whole Kaiser thing looming over Bowlen's ability to sell.

Back to Elway, he needs to step in as VP or even President of Football operations. Similar to the type of role that Bill Parcells is/was under the Miami Dolphins. We need better leadership at the very top, and who better than Elway?

http://img3.allvoices.com/thumbs/event/609/480/63828048-former-denver.jpg

SoCalBronco
10-28-2010, 01:02 AM
SoCal...why do you suppose Josh takes this approach when it's completely backwards from what he learned under Belichick? If the Pats are anything, they are shrewd manipulators of the draft process and completely committed to building through the draft as opposed to what we're seeing done here.

Good question, Footsteps. I really don't know why he does that. It would logically follow that he would follow what they're doing on that front too since he likes to follow the NE way in general. I really don't know why he's taken a different approach. Certainly, he's free to do what he feels is best, but as much as I sometimes despise the over-glorification of "the NE way", this would have been the one area where it would be great to just follow their general theory of trading their replaceables for picks and generally taking advantage of other people on draft day when they are willing to part with alot just to move up.

Drek
10-28-2010, 01:12 AM
I'd argue that McDaniels' front office moves have been the strongest thing about his time here.

The only real mistakes he made was drafting Smith (and giving up on him too soon, but that was more of a roster crunch problem. Long term I'll take Squid and Vaughn) and Quinn, along with signing Jarvis Green.

Meanwhile he got Moreno who looked solid his rookie year and despite playing with injuries this season has looked leagues ahead of the rest of our backs. People often forget that Maroney, in this same system, looked like a passable primary back in New England. Here he has a hard time getting two yards a touch. Kinda puts Moreno's 14 carry, 50-something yard games in perspective doesn't it?

Ayers has come along very well in his second year. Beadles and Walton are already contributing, though with some rookie struggles. He's done very well on three young CB acquisitions after the mistake of trading a 1st for a 2nd to grab Smith. McBath has looked like a gamer when healthy and Bruton has been a STs ace while also showing a little potential for moving into a starting role down the road. Bey Bey looks like an electric play maker. If pre-season is anything to go by Decker also looks like a very good move. Obviously opinions can go either way on the Tebow move and that is something we'll have to wait and see on.

In free agency he's hit big with veterans like Dawkins, Goodman, Lloyd, and Gaffney. Is DL acquisitions aren't setting the world on fire but are an obvious upgrade over what we had last year.

From a trades standpoint he's generally been on the winning side. We gave up a 5th for Hochstein and LeKevin Smith. Hochstein has more than earned that price tag as our super sub OL, despite Smith not contributing. Marshall for two 2nds (on what will likely be a sub <.500 Dolphins team) is looking like a very strong move given the play he's gotten out of the rest of our WR corps. Hillis and conditional late round picks for Quinn was a solid move at the time, especially considering Hillis' desire to not be here coupled with his inability to learn the offense all last season. A late round pick for Joe Mays isn't looking like a bad move at this point either. The Cutler deal continues to look like a master stroke, given the massive return and that the root problem was quite obviously about money. How would we be feeling now if McDaniels had forked over a $30M extension to Cutler, guaranteeing the fat years of his rookie deal by proxy, and Jay played like he has for Chicago the last two years?

Obviously trading a future 1st for a 2nd was not a good move but at least when we had to give up on the guy taken with that pick he turned it into someone who is now contributing to the team. The Quinn deal was a equitable trade to get back into the second round. Swapping a future 5th for two 7ths in a deep draft is a worthwhile double down move last year on his part, and looks to have paid off with Thompson's play.

Then you're left with the Maroney trade, where we swapped a 4th for Maroney and a 6th. I'd still call that pretty fair value, even if Maroney hasn't played as well as we'd like. Obviously that deal never happens if Lendale White doesn't have his season ended in a pre-season game.

The last aspect of a front office person is their waiver wire acquisitions. Last year we didn't muck with the waiver wire too much. This year we've been active (due to injuries) and have found two very nice role players in Hunter and Vickerson. Can't fault that, most teams have a hard time finding even one worthwhile backup off the wire.

My biggest concern with McDaniels' work to date is his staffing decisions. I really like picking up Studesville to coach the RBs and most of the defensive assistants are very good. But obviously there is concern about if Martindale was ready to step up to a DC job, and the OL staff has now had enough time where we'd like to see some form of improvement.

This is where a more experienced football guy might have come in useful. I would bet that McDaniels' biggest problem with staffing is a lack of connections. He hired Nolan largely because he had a tie to him since they share the same agent. Its clear he just hasn't been in the NFL long enough and networked enough to have a very deep pool to draw from.

BroncoBuff
10-28-2010, 01:22 AM
Disagree, SoCal, almost all around. Hits and misses in the draft ... I'm kind of blanking on the hits? You say Ayers and Thomas, imo too early to judge either, really, especially Thomas. But listing those two thusfar marginal (at best) contributors as 'hits' is nothing short of damning with faint praise. Compared to the guy that was canned to make room for Josh and Xanders, these drafts were abysmal. Not fair to compare them to Jim Goodman, whose record remains nearly flawless to this day, but in just three drafts Jim hit on 5th and 7th rounds RBs who are now feature backs. Elsewhere.

What about Seth Olsen? Alphonso? Quinn? Knowshon? Brandstater? And Blake Schleuter, who was cut before the first preseason game? That draft was a flop, no other way to see it. Especially given five picks in the first two rounds.


BUT THAT'S NOT MY POINT! My point is not so much whether moves have been good or bad, but that Josh is saddled with the pressure of his moves in addition to the onfield product. Remember he's he's never had any personnel or head coaching experience before. And the pressure on him with the Cutler and BMarsh situations was huge, far, far more than he deserved. That stuff diverts his attention ... and if the Post article is right and he's putting too much pressure on the players, after the Jets game anyway, how much of that is spillover from these other problems? And from what internally might be growing problems with Knowshon and Quinn?

BroncoBuff
10-28-2010, 01:29 AM
I'd argue that McDaniels' front office moves have been the strongest thing about his time here.

Wow, can't imagine disagreeing more.

Imo his strongest accomplishment here is the amazing output in the passing game, despite borderline journeyman talent and no running game. He's proven his offensive boy-genius tag in spades. Which makes my point even further: he should be building on that success instead of answering questions and feeling pressure about Alfonso and Hillis and whomever else.


People often forget that Maroney, in this same system, looked like a passable primary back in New England. Here he has a hard time getting two yards a touch. Kinda puts Moreno's 14 carry, 50-something yard games in perspective doesn't it?

That's a very good point ... most all of us should consider re-thinking Knowshon.

Drek
10-28-2010, 02:10 AM
What about Seth Olsen? Alphonso? Quinn? Knowshon? Brandstater? And Blake Schleuter, who was cut before the first preseason game? That draft was a flop, no other way to see it. Especially given five picks in the first two rounds.

Knowshon is a solid pick at worst, with flashes of being a game changer if we can ever give him an OL to work with and get him through a pre-season healthy.

You're also discounting Ayers, McBath, and Bruton in this critique. Fact is after the third round the draft goes from a 50/50 proposition to a full on crap shoot. Over his first five picks he hit on what looks to be three good players for us. He then actually pulled a solid contributor out of the 4th-7th rounds with Bruton. A 7th rounder like Schleuter not even making it to pre-season is nothing surprising, nor is a 5th round QB getting dropped when you add a 1st round QBOTF type guy the next year. Same with Olsen, his job was far from guaranteed as soon as we drafted three OL who all offered more versatility and better draft pedigree than he did the very next year.

Quinn isn't working out, which sucks. He had to cut bait on Smith likely before he wanted to because Smith didn't work hard enough his rookie year and then in camp we had Vaughn and Thompson come on strong after his job. The worthwhile thing to note though is that he turned Smith into a TE who fills the role that Quinn is leaving vacant. Its a ****ty way to go about getting our long term TE, but its better than what a lot of teams do in this scenario (cut both of the disappointments, burn more draft picks trying to fill both holes).

BUT THAT'S NOT MY POINT! My point is not so much whether moves have been good or bad, but that Josh is saddled with the pressure of his moves in addition to the onfield product. Remember he's he's never had any personnel or head coaching experience before. And the pressure on him with the Cutler and BMarsh situations was huge, far, far more than he deserved. That stuff diverts his attention ... and if the Post article is right and he's putting too much pressure on the players, after the Jets game anyway, how much of that is spillover from these other problems? And from what internally might be growing problems with Knowshon and Quinn?
Can anyone really gauge how much pressure he feels and how he's handling it?

I got to be honest. If McDaniels didn't tear into the team after how they lost to the Jets I'd be really damn disappointed. He and Martindale DESTROYED Schottenheimer and Ryan from a gameplan/coaching perspective. Our guys just completely failed to execute. Even still we had the game well within our grasp until we caved and handed it over with a late penalty on what should have been a game winning defensive stop.

Much like the Colts game McDaniels put the players in position to win the game, showed them that he had faith in their ability to win the game, and they rewarded him by not getting the job done. That right now obviously has to be the single biggest source of distress on McDaniels. The complete lack of a killer instinct from both the offensive and defensive sides of the ball.

We as Broncos fans though should be getting used to it. This team hasn't had a killer instinct since 2005 and that was only a brief flash. Before that you've got to go back to the Elway years.

And here we come full circle on the FO moves McDaniels has made and we see why he's drafted Tim Tebow. No matter what your take is on Tebow's passing technique or ability to read defenses Tebow displayed the killer instinct of a 20' great white surrounded by bleeding seals all through college. You can't teach that. McDaniels knows this because he saw that killer instinct in Brady then tried to teach it to Cassel and now Orton to no avail.

Its all up in the air at this point but I personally view the 2010 draft as a front office masterwork that easily outstrips anything Shanahan and the Goodmans achieved. McDaniels turned a disparate collection of picks into the exact positions he needed to hit on his primary targets, then grabbed great value throughout the rest of the draft. Our '08 and '06 drafts were just grabbing BPA and getting some real good breaks. We didn't jockey for position to grab the guys we actually knew could be play makers and didn't want to miss out on. That shows a far greater insight into what your team needs and how other teams are valuing those players, the real heart of great drafting.

Garcia Bronco
10-28-2010, 06:08 AM
Drek nailed it IMO.

v2micca
10-28-2010, 06:12 AM
Moreno has been serviceable in my opinion. Serviceable is what you expect from a 2 to 3rd round pick his first few years. I know some would argue that behind our line, the second coming of Barry Sanders couldn't even put up more than 2 yards a carry. Fair enough assessment. But that means we completely wasted a first round pick on a running back when we didn't have an Offensive Line in place for him. That is the kind of move that bad teams make.

And personally, I will never be able to get behind the Moreno pick when Brian Orakpo was still on the board. I still remember that once we passed on him, the Redskins couldn't get to the table fast enough with their pick to snatch him. I fear that within the next few years we are going to be complaining as bitterly about him and many already complain about passing on Ed Reed.

Mogulseeker
10-28-2010, 06:14 AM
It's a painful year, but it's way to early to throw Josh under the bus.

Rock Chalk
10-28-2010, 06:17 AM
Moreno has been serviceable in my opinion. Serviceable is what you expect from a 2 to 3rd round pick his first few years. I know some would argue that behind our line, the second coming of Barry Sanders couldn't even put up more than 2 yards a carry. Fair enough assessment. But that means we completely wasted a first round pick on a running back when we didn't have an Offensive Line in place for him. That is the kind of move that bad teams make.

All that would be true except last year in his rookie season he led all rookie RBs in yardage and played well when we have Dennison. This is CLEARLY not on the RBs but the effing linemen who have been hurt and are going through a scheme change because our top notch O-line coach left.

And personally, I will never be able to get behind the Moreno pick when Brian Orakpo was still on the board. I still remember that once we passed on him, the Redskins couldn't get to the table fast enough with their pick to snatch him. I fear that within the next few years we are going to be complaining as bitterly about him and many already complain about passing on Ed Reed.
I was not on board for the Moreno pick either wanting to go defense, but the flipside of that coin is we had no one we could rely on as a featured back at the time. Even had we not traded Hillis, dude is always injured and we would be in the same position anyway.

Orakpo would have been a nice pick, but we still would have needed a RB in our backfield and of that draft class, few stood out.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-28-2010, 06:18 AM
Bailey accepted the Broncos offer, then it was yanked. It wasn't because his demands were outrageous. Champ wanted to be a Bronco for the rest of his career. It was poor form of the Broncos Brass, I am looking at you Joe Ellis, to pull the offer and essentially give the middle finger to Champ and in the process makes Josh looks bad.


That's not true. Sorry, it's just not.

He has repeatedly said that he was "ready to" accept the offer, and then the offer was taken off the table. Not nearly the same thing.

But carry on.

BroncoBuff
10-28-2010, 06:34 AM
Drek nailed it IMO.

Really? "The 2010 draft as a front office masterwork that easily outstrips anything Shanahan and the Goodmans achieved."

Wow. In the first place it's way too early for that, and in the second place Brandon Marshall, Elvis Dumervil, Domenik Hixon and Chris Kuper would disagree (that being the tail end of '06). As would the back half of '08, Spencer Larsen, Josh Barrett and especially Ryan Torain and Peyton Hillis, both of whom are feature backs elsewhere.

I do think Josh and Brian maneuvered pretty good on draft day, trading in and out of slots, but there's still lots of questions there, not the least if which is Tebow.


It's a painful year, but it's way to early to throw Josh under the bus.

That's not what I'm doing ... again, MY POINT: the headlines regarding Josh should be, "McDaniels offense puts up huge passing numbers despite average talent, two rookies on the O-line and no running game." "McDaniels has journeyman Brandon Lloyd on top the league in receiving while Kyle Orton continues to put up pinball numbers." Can't argue that kind of pub would make things a lot easier on him, ease the pressure. But instead the weight of Alfonso, Hillis and others are on his shoulders, not to mention Kenny McKinley, that can't be easy.

Josh deserved better, he deserved to be slowly eased into these huge responsibilities. Instead he had the weight of the franchise thrown on his back, it seemed like Bowlen just floated off or something. I've said all this since Day 1 ... and to be honest it's not looking good right now. I think his epitaph, if there is one, will be what I'm saying here, too much responsibility and pressure, too early. We'll see I guess.

v2micca
10-28-2010, 06:42 AM
All that would be true except last year in his rookie season he led all rookie RBs in yardage and played well when we have Dennison. This is CLEARLY not on the RBs but the effing linemen who have been hurt and are going through a scheme change because our top notch O-line coach left.

I was not on board for the Moreno pick either wanting to go defense, but the flipside of that coin is we had no one we could rely on as a featured back at the time. Even had we not traded Hillis, dude is always injured and we would be in the same position anyway.

Orakpo would have been a nice pick, but we still would have needed a RB in our backfield and of that draft class, few stood out.

Leading a Rookie RB class that featured the likes of Beanie Wells and LeSean McCoy doesn't really impress me. He was 16th in the league with 947 yards rushing and 21st in the league with a pedestrian 3.8 yards per carry. For the feature back, that is the definition of serviceable. And with the decrease in his production in 2010 (blame whoever you want, the line coach, the Offensive Line, injuries, ect) the pick serves us even less.

I know that McDaniels was not going to use Hillis and we would have needed some help at running back. But Shonn Greene was still available in the 3rd round. There were options in later rounds for backs that would have filled our needs. And especially since McDaniels knew he would be transitioning the blocking scheme, spending a first round draft pick on a Running Back when the team had so many other glaring needs just doesn't make sense to me.

jhns
10-28-2010, 07:04 AM
I voted yes. I think McDaniels is a good coach. My problem with him has always been with the GM side of things. It is why I don't doubt that he will be much better at his next stop. He most likely won't have any extra power then.

CEH
10-28-2010, 07:34 AM
Its all up in the air at this point but I personally view the 2010 draft as a front office masterwork that easily outstrips anything Shanahan and the Goodmans achieved. McDaniels turned a disparate collection of picks into the exact positions he needed to hit on his primary targets, then grabbed great value throughout the rest of the draft. Our '08 and '06 drafts were just grabbing BPA and getting some real good breaks. We didn't jockey for position to grab the guys we actually knew could be play makers and didn't want to miss out on. That shows a far greater insight into what your team needs and how other teams are valuing those players, the real heart of great drafting.

Homer much. Shanny manipulated the '06 draft trading down twice once in '05 and again in '06 and back up twice in '06 to aquire his QB and then trading for a WR in Walker with one of those picks he traded down for. How is that any difference he what McD did to get Thomas and Tebow. Seems similar to me.

The '06 draft was not a crap shoot and he manipulated it to get into a position to draft the QB he wanted. This was all done in the cloak of secrectcy. This same draft choices that McD used to aquire 2 1st and 2 2nds

Trading days before the draft and having the draft turn out the way you predicted shows alot more to me then hoping a team will trade with you in that 10 minute period on draft day. And the whole draft process is always about good breaks. You cannot just trade down unless there is someone willing to trade up. That is a good break in any draft.

Dagmar
10-28-2010, 07:55 AM
That's a very good point ... most all of us should consider re-thinking Knowshon.

Posters who believe Knowshon is a bad back are incredibly uninformed.

v2micca
10-28-2010, 08:05 AM
Posters who believe Knowshon is a bad back are incredibly uninformed.

I don't believe Knowshon is a bad back. I just don't believe he is a very good one, let alone great. Right now he is serviceable,occasionally solid, and shows flashes of being good. Not exactly what you hope for in the second year of a first round draft pick, but that is what you get when you draft the back before ensuring you have the right line for him to run behind.

Rock Chalk
10-28-2010, 08:18 AM
Leading a Rookie RB class that featured the likes of Beanie Wells and LeSean McCoy doesn't really impress me. He was 16th in the league with 947 yards rushing and 21st in the league with a pedestrian 3.8 yards per carry. For the feature back, that is the definition of serviceable. And with the decrease in his production in 2010 (blame whoever you want, the line coach, the Offensive Line, injuries, ect) the pick serves us even less.

You fail to take into account that last year when he was a rookie the team was undergoing a full on system change from the previous regime and while you point out that leading a rookie RB class that was notoriously weak does not mean we didn't need a RB. We in fact DID need one as I have mentioned even if we had kept Peyton, that dude also has injury issues so either way we are back to square one. The pick serves us well over the long term but you are looking at a snapshot of the team.

I know that McDaniels was not going to use Hillis and we would have needed some help at running back. But Shonn Greene was still available in the 3rd round. There were options in later rounds for backs that would have filled our needs. And especially since McDaniels knew he would be transitioning the blocking scheme, spending a first round draft pick on a Running Back when the team had so many other glaring needs just doesn't make sense to me.
Maybe you are right, but given that he didn't have all that much time to prepare for the first draft, and that he took what he deemed the best value at RB in the draft in the first round I don't see how you can be so critical of Moreno or McDaniels for that specific pick. I dont know what Shonn Greene's collegiate career was like so I can't make an educated comment on whether or not he would have been a good pick (we can say in hindsight it would have but why did he fall to the 3rd round anyway? You see, its just a crapshoot). We had a glaring need at RB, unless you wanted to trot out there oft-injured Peyton Hillis, Cell Phone Guru Tatum Bell, Selvin Young or even more oft-injured Ryan Torain. Sure, Torain is doing well in Shanahan's sytem iN Washington but that's why he was drafted, to run in that system, we are not running that system.

baja
10-28-2010, 08:19 AM
Here's what I don't get. Everyone assumes McD has all this GM power and I don't see any hard evidence of that being the case. It's been said over and over Ellis has the power and the Xanders is a very active GM that collaborates with Josh but it is Xanders has the final say from what I have gathered

Rock Chalk
10-28-2010, 08:20 AM
Further, what makes Goodman's draft's so special? Cutler is a head case and not an elite, or even average level QB. Clady may or may not be an elite Left Tackle. Harris is always injured. Marshall is yet another head case. Scheff was good sure, but he complained his way out of town. Hillis cant stay healthy. I just dont see what was so special about Goodman. Buff critiques the draft picks we have with a completely different eye than he critiques Goodman's drafts and let's face it, Goodman was INCOMPETENT drafting defensive players all together.

Rock Chalk
10-28-2010, 08:21 AM
Here's what I don't get. Everyone assumes McD has all this GM power and I don't see any hard evidence of that being the case. It's been said over and over Ellis has the power and the Xanders is a very active GM that collaborates with Josh but it is Xanders has the final say from what I have gathered

People believe what they want to believe. SoCal and Buff are deadset on believing Xanders is a puppet and they may or may not be right but they believe it as fervently as Muslims believe blowing themselves and innocent people up will land them 72 virgins in Heaven.

Smiling Assassin27
10-28-2010, 08:23 AM
Posters who believe Knowshon is a bad back are incredibly uninformed.


While I don't consider Moreno a 'bad back', I wonder what you are basing your statement on, cuz it sure isn't production.

Rock Chalk
10-28-2010, 08:25 AM
While I don't consider Moreno a 'bad back', I wonder what you are basing your statement on, cuz it sure isn't production.

I think we saw enough last year when we still had Dennison and a fully healthy offensive line that Moreno isn't a bad back. And we have seen enough this year when Moreno does get some space that he can create. I think its pretty hard to devalue Moreno when he is consistently being hit 2 and 3 yards behind the LOS almost immediately after he gets the handoff.

I don't think he is an elite back, but I also don't think McDaniels system calls for one.

Drek
10-28-2010, 08:30 AM
Really? "The 2010 draft as a front office masterwork that easily outstrips anything Shanahan and the Goodmans achieved."

Wow. In the first place it's way too early for that, and in the second place Brandon Marshall, Elvis Dumervil, Domenik Hixon and Chris Kuper would disagree (that being the tail end of '06). As would the back half of '08, Spencer Larsen, Josh Barrett and especially Ryan Torain and Peyton Hillis, both of whom are feature backs elsewhere.

I do think Josh and Brian maneuvered pretty good on draft day, trading in and out of slots, but there's still lots of questions there, not the least if which is Tebow.

Its got nothing to do with the actual players taken. The 2006 draft is hard for any team to beat from the perspective of just how much raw talent fell in our laps. But other than the move up to get Cutler and trading a pick for a player (Walker) the team basically drafted where they were at.

Shanahan had done a trade that got him a future 1st, he did a little splitting of hairs with the firsts but in the end basically traded both to get Cutler. He moved up after a QB, not exactly a shocker in a class with three top tier QB prospects and questions everywhere else. Then they traded a 2nd for Walker and after that just drafted BPA.

McDaniels and Xanders last year started with an early first and two seconds. In a year in which everyone knew trading down would be very difficult McDaniels moved down twice, parlayed the picks gained into a second first, and then jumped back up a bit to block a move by the Ravens to get Thomas.

After that he picked straight for a few rounds, then flipped a future 5th for two 7ths that he turned into a valuable contributor already.

I'd be surprised if the raw talent gained ends up being on par with the 2006 class, but if you had put me in the war room with the draft board that Shanahan Jim Goodman went to work with that weekend I could've produced the exact same draft. Everyone knew that to get a QB we needed to move up to just outside the top 10. Everyone knew that a 2nd rounder would get you Javon Walker. Then just BPA.

Meanwhile in 2010 McDaniels successfully traded down multiple times, nailed the value attached to Thomas by other teams, grabbed Tebow just before where he likely would've gone otherwise (a team jumping into the late 1st or early 2nd to grab him), and then after going BPA for a bit recognized that there were still a good number of talented guy she liked on the board so he worked a deal that added value to the back end of our draft.

This was the kind of draft I always wanted Shanahan to have. One where he appropriately diagnosed when a player would come off the board and then to position himeslf accordingly to maximize draft value. Instead we frequently saw moves like in '07 when we traded up a few spots, sacrificing a 3rd rounder that we then bought back with an '08 3rd and our entire second day, to leap frog teams for Jarvis Moss simply because our two other "targets" were gone.

If you're going to draft off a short list you've got to know exactly where you're willing to take your short listers. You can't just say "we need one of these three guys out of the first round and we'll give up whatever is needed to make that happen". Which is how Shanahan always drafted.

You could argue that is how McDaniels ran his draft in '09, but in '10 he seemed to know exactly where every other team valued his guys and he got them where he could maximize value.

Again, the players taken have nothing to do with it, its all about playing the board and knowing when guys you want will come off it.


That's a very good point ... most all of us should consider re-thinking Knowshon.

I said last year that you could tell a lot about a person's football IQ by getting their opinion on Kyle Orton. This year's litmus test is obviously Knowshon Moreno.

Smiling Assassin27
10-28-2010, 08:35 AM
I think we saw enough last year when we still had Dennison and a fully healthy offensive line that Moreno isn't a bad back. And we have seen enough this year when Moreno does get some space that he can create. I think its pretty hard to devalue Moreno when he is consistently being hit 2 and 3 yards behind the LOS almost immediately after he gets the handoff.

I don't think he is an elite back, but I also don't think McDaniels system calls for one.

No, but the #12 pick probably does demand that he be an elite--or near-elite--back, wouldn't you say? Serviceable backs are available in the 2nd (McCoy in Philly) and 3rd (Shonn Greene in NYC) rounds and, to date, Moreno's been serviceable when healthy but an underachiever with regard to production.

I know hindsight is 20/20 and I see your point about the OL, which has been marginal. If the McD offense doesn't call for an elite back, though, why did we draft Moreno at an elite rb slot? His skill set thus far reminds me a lot of Kevin Faulk, and that's not a knock but a compliment. Still, the #12 spot is where you find impact players, not role players.

baja
10-28-2010, 08:56 AM
People believe what they want to believe. SoCal and Buff are deadset on believing Xanders is a puppet and they may or may not be right but they believe it as fervently as Muslims believe blowing themselves and innocent people up will land them 72 virgins in Heaven.

LOL


How can a rational person make such a large leap from what is known to the belief that McDaniels has Shanahan like GM power. There is no evidence that is the case.

Many posters make this basic flawed assumption than proceed to build a case to blame all sorts of decisions on Josh when it is far from clear who actually is responsible for those decisions.

For example Cutler. The evidence points to Josh trying to work things out with Jay but not willing to say he would never consider trading him which is what a head coach should say. No player should ever get such a guarantee and Josh handled that correctly it was in fact Bowlen's decision to trade Cutler yet Josh is the one that 90% of the posters here blame or credit depending on how they feel about the trade.

Josh gets all the blame/credit for the draft and again we just do not know who made those decisions.

Even So Cal in his long post makes the assumption Josh has all this power and proceeds to critique Josh for all sorts of things that there is no proof he is making those decisions.

jhns
10-28-2010, 09:17 AM
LOL


How can a rational person make such a large leap from what is known to the belief that McDaniels has Shanahan like GM power. There is no evidence that is the case.

Many posters make this basic flawed assumption than proceed to build a case to blame all sorts of decisions on Josh when it is far from clear who actually is responsible for those decisions.

For example Cutler. The evidence points to Josh trying to work things out with Jay but not willing to say he would never consider trading him which is what a head coach should say. No player should ever get such a guarantee and Josh handled that correctly it was in fact Bowlen's decision to trade Cutler yet Josh is the one that 90% of the posters here blame or credit depending on how they feel about the trade.

Josh gets all the blame/credit for the draft and again we just do not know who made those decisions.

Even So Cal in his long post makes the assumption Josh has all this power and proceeds to critique Josh for all sorts of things that there is no proof he is making those decisions.

The Cutler situation is how we know McDaniels makes personnel decisions. For one, Xanders is a cap guru. He is not a talent evaluator. He wasn't for the Falcons and wasn't one under Shanahan. Second, it was McDaniels that came out and said he was the one listening to trade offers. You just said it yourself, McDaniels claimed HE would still listen to trade offers for any player.

What evidence do you have that he doesn't have this power? Every time a player is being dealt with, it is McDaniels that comes out saying why he did what he did. They only come out with that group effort stuff when the coach is taking a lot of heat for something. Anyways, the same things were said with Shanahan when the going got tough...

v2micca
10-28-2010, 09:17 AM
People believe what they want to believe. SoCal and Buff are deadset on believing Xanders is a puppet and they may or may not be right but they believe it as fervently as Muslims believe blowing themselves and innocent people up will land them 72 virgins in Heaven.

I don't care who made the decision. Passing on Brian Orakpo to take Knowshon is a move that I fear will haunt us in the coming years. I would rather be wrong and gladly eat my helping of crow. But I fear that is just not in the cards.

jhns
10-28-2010, 09:23 AM
To add to my last post, wasn't it Josh that fired Goodman and made the decision to keep Xanders as the only GM? I would say that shows who has the power.

bendog
10-28-2010, 09:32 AM
yeah 7 picks in the top 50. mcDaniels is a front office genius. NOT.

baja
10-28-2010, 09:53 AM
The Cutler situation is how we know McDaniels makes personnel decisions. For one, Xanders is a cap guru. He is not a talent evaluator. He wasn't for the Falcons and wasn't one under Shanahan. Second, it was McDaniels that came out and said he was the one listening to trade offers. You just said it yourself, McDaniels claimed HE would still listen to trade offers for any player.

What evidence do you have that he doesn't have this power? Every time a player is being dealt with, it is McDaniels that comes out saying why he did what he did. They only come out with that group effort stuff when the coach is taking a lot of heat for something. Anyways, the same things were said with Shanahan when the going got tough...

On the occasions when I read a post of your's I mostly come away saying Huh?

I am not attempting to make a case for either side on the McD power issue. My take was about the assumptions so many posters make and go on to build what is put forth as factual when in fact the whole case in build off an assumption.

Like you do in the post I quote here.

Let me simplify.

1.There was no question about who was in charge when Shanahan was with Denver


2. There is no definitive evidence as to exactly how much power Josh McD has.


3. Many posters here assume Josh has the same amount of power Shanahan had and base arguments & assessments on that assumption.

strafen
10-28-2010, 09:59 AM
Here's what I don't get. Everyone assumes McD has all this GM power and I don't see any hard evidence of that being the case. It's been said over and over Ellis has the power and the Xanders is a very active GM that collaborates with Josh but it is Xanders has the final say from what I have gathered
Come on man.
Do you really believe that?
Don't insult the intelligence of the people here who know better.
You know that what you just typed there is a bunch of crap you don't even believe yourself.
To say Xanders got the final say, it's outrageous and laughable.
I think your credibility is running on empty...
But again, you would sacrifice your credibility just as long as you're saving Mcdaniels face....

strafen
10-28-2010, 10:04 AM
Posters who believe Knowshon is a bad back are incredibly uninformed.I think being informed or uninformed, got nothing to do with what they've seen so far, don't you think?

Smiling Assassin27
10-28-2010, 10:08 AM
To say Xanders got the final say, it's outrageous and laughable.


Read it again, that's not what he said. He said this:

It's been said over and over

Baja's point is that if you're gonna base your arguments on the premise that Josh is the sole decision maker and power broker in the Broncos organization, you should probably ensure that premise is true, not just speculative. I agree. I don't give 'gimme' putts in golf or when assessing arguments as true or false. Make your case or just admit that you're just assuming something that probably should be demonstrated factually to make your argument semi-plausible. Go ahead--make your case.

Drek
10-28-2010, 10:33 AM
The Cutler situation is how we know McDaniels makes personnel decisions. For one, Xanders is a cap guru. He is not a talent evaluator. He wasn't for the Falcons and wasn't one under Shanahan. Second, it was McDaniels that came out and said he was the one listening to trade offers. You just said it yourself, McDaniels claimed HE would still listen to trade offers for any player.

What evidence do you have that he doesn't have this power? Every time a player is being dealt with, it is McDaniels that comes out saying why he did what he did. They only come out with that group effort stuff when the coach is taking a lot of heat for something. Anyways, the same things were said with Shanahan when the going got tough...

Thats all because McDaniels is who Bowlen chose to be the face of the organization.

If anything the Cutler ordeal should show that Bowlen and Ellis are firmly in control of the direction this team goes in, because McDaniels made it quite clear he was going to make Cutler stay and play right up until Cutler started replacing "I don't trust McDaniels" with "I don't trust the organization" and stopped returning Bowlen's phone calls.

To add to my last post, wasn't it Josh that fired Goodman and made the decision to keep Xanders as the only GM? I would say that shows who has the power.

Bowlen again. Bowlen announced it and talked specifically about how he made the move because he thought Xanders was better for the job than Jeff Goodman, only in part because he had better chemistry with McDaniels, and that he didn't think it would be right to make Jim Goodman choose between honoring his contract and supporting his son, since by all accounts Jeff Goodman didn't take the news that Xanders was getting the bump happily.

~Crash~
10-28-2010, 10:36 AM
First time head coach, on any level. But instead of concentrating his attentions exclusively on the on-field product, Josh has done the drafting and made the trades, and their (mostly) negative results is a lot for him to carry, a lot of added pressure.

As I've said from Day One, it's not fair to Josh ... Bowlen let him down by not stepping up and hiring an experienced GM, and now the hot seat is that much hotter.

Hell we had a good GM!

Drek
10-28-2010, 10:42 AM
I don't care who made the decision. Passing on Brian Orakpo to take Knowshon is a move that I fear will haunt us in the coming years. I would rather be wrong and gladly eat my helping of crow. But I fear that is just not in the cards.

Orakpo is a worse fit on the strong side of our 3-4 than Ayers is. Ayers, prior to getting hurt, was looking like an outstanding all around LB despite no help up front. Why would we regret getting a pass rushing DE/OLB when we've got a superior pass rusher in Doom and a more diverse OLB in Ayers opposite him?

~Crash~
10-28-2010, 10:47 AM
Thats all because McDaniels is who Bowlen chose to be the face of the organization.

If anything the Cutler ordeal should show that Bowlen and Ellis are firmly in control of the direction this team goes in, because McDaniels made it quite clear he was going to make Cutler stay and play right up until Cutler started replacing "I don't trust McDaniels" with "I don't trust the organization" and stopped returning Bowlen's phone calls.



Bowlen again. Bowlen announced it and talked specifically about how he made the move because he thought Xanders was better for the job than Jeff Goodman, only in part because he had better chemistry with McDaniels, and that he didn't think it would be right to make Jim Goodman choose between honoring his contract and supporting his son, since by all accounts Jeff Goodman didn't take the news that Xanders was getting the bump happily.
you know You forgot a bunch of stuff but that is all right it fits the **** you just banged out ...

How about Cutler saying over and over that he would show up but he would not need to because he was going to get traded ! two days before he was to show up he was traded HM could of Cutler talked to the Goodman's ? I would say yes ...

Or the leaks over and over that McDaniel's did not believe in cutler . or the Friday cutler wait 3 hours to see McDaniel's only to get put off . then hear the next day McDaniel's was trying t trade him ... oh I know McDaniel's is perfect and all . but I see some flaws sorry to burst you bubble .

go_broncos
10-28-2010, 10:48 AM
Posters who believe Knowshon is a bad back are incredibly uninformed.

uninformed???...on what basis are you saying?
Is he performing on the field?.
He is picked 12th overall and he didn't have a single 100 yards rushing till now.
On top of that, he is always injured.

Br0nc0Buster
10-28-2010, 10:50 AM
I don't care who made the decision. Passing on Brian Orakpo to take Knowshon is a move that I fear will haunt us in the coming years. I would rather be wrong and gladly eat my helping of crow. But I fear that is just not in the cards.

yeah this Orakpo thing people keep trotting out doesnt make sense
Why would we of taken Orakpo?

Ayers was the guy they wanted, and it would of been silly to draft both Orakpo and Ayers

dont compare Moreno to Orakpo, that would be stupid
compare Ayers to Orakpo since really they preferred him to Orakpo

and at this moment I am fine with that, Ayers is a better fit at SOLB than Orakpo, and is much more diverse

Br0nc0Buster
10-28-2010, 10:52 AM
you know You forgot a bunch of stuff but that is all right it fits the **** you just banged out ...

How about Cutler saying over and over that he would show up but he would not need to because he was going to get traded ! two days before he was to show up he was traded HM could of Cutler talked to the Goodman's ? I would say yes ...

Or the leaks over and over that McDaniel's did not believe in cutler . or the Friday cutler wait 3 hours to see McDaniel's only to get put off . then hear the next day McDaniel's was trying t trade him ... oh I know McDaniel's is perfect and all . but I see some flaws sorry to burst you bubble .

or Cutler not answering ANYONE's phone calls
or Cutler high fiving guys when he got traded

whatever though

Popps
10-28-2010, 10:55 AM
Drek nails down the subject, as usual.

Drek
10-28-2010, 11:14 AM
you know You forgot a bunch of stuff but that is all right it fits the **** you just banged out ...

How about Cutler saying over and over that he would show up but he would not need to because he was going to get traded ! two days before he was to show up he was traded HM could of Cutler talked to the Goodman's ? I would say yes ...

Or the leaks over and over that McDaniel's did not believe in cutler . or the Friday cutler wait 3 hours to see McDaniel's only to get put off . then hear the next day McDaniel's was trying t trade him ... oh I know McDaniel's is perfect and all . but I see some flaws sorry to burst you bubble .

I don't see your point here.

We can go over all the faux drama Cutler and Bus Cook stirred up to get paid if you want again, but all my post addressed was the statements by jhns that McDaniels is the one who traded Cutler and fired the Goodmans.

In reality both were choices made by the owner, Pat Bowlen, likely under the advice of his vice president, Joe Ellis. McDaniels was chosen to be the front man of the organization so he takes the bullets, but he'd made it quite clear all that off-season that he was working in partnership with the GM and that his intent was to wait for Cutler to show up for mandatory camps at which point he figured it'd all get worked out and Cutler would love playing in his offense.

jhns
10-28-2010, 11:41 AM
Again, they said the same crap with Shanahan. Bowlen always said that him and Sundquist were in on all decisions. Everyone knows that isn't true. I'm sure Bowlen had to OK decisions but they were still Shanahans decisions. The same thing is playing out with McDaniels. Either way, if it is a group effort, McDaniels and Xanders are failing on the GM front. I'm not sure how that changes any of these arguments unless you are trying to say McDaniels has no say. People aren't going to want McDaniels fired but keep Xanders around...

Some of the posts in this thread are just ridiculous. I especially like the talk of this past draft being better than a draft that had starters picked in pretty much every round. Funny stuff.

I also looked it up and it was Bowlen who said he fired Goodman. At the same time he said they were looking for other scouts because player evaluation isn't Xanders thing. I'm not positive but I would think that would be good enough of a clue that Xanders isn't the one making personnel decisions outside of "we can/can't afford that guy".

baja
10-28-2010, 11:54 AM
Come on man.
Do you really believe that?
Don't insult the intelligence of the people here who know better.
You know that what you just typed there is a bunch of crap you don't even believe yourself.
To say Xanders got the final say, it's outrageous and laughable.
I think your credibility is running on empty...
But again, you would sacrifice your credibility just as long as you're saving Mcdaniels face....

Fine than you won't mind showing me your proof that what you claim is obvious.

Link me one article, one video, a presser, a news release from Dove Valley, an email from Pat Bowlen. Anything to lend credibility that Josh is coach?GM and Xanders is a figure head.

Until them it's all conjecture.

What I find is they collaborate on the decisions and Xanders has the final word.

bendog
10-28-2010, 11:56 AM
if McDaniels is nailing the front office, the offense and defense ratings wouldn't be declining. But homer on; it's halloween.

baja
10-28-2010, 12:03 PM
Come on man.
Do you really believe that?
Don't insult the intelligence of the people here who know better.
You know that what you just typed there is a bunch of crap you don't even believe yourself.
To say Xanders got the final say, it's outrageous and laughable.
I think your credibility is running on empty...
But again, you would sacrifice your credibility just as long as you're saving Mcdaniels face....

Sorry I can't dialog with you further, your comprehension is not high enough and I would be wasting both of our time.

Popps
10-28-2010, 12:09 PM
Sorry I can't dialog with you further, your comprehension is not high enough and I would be wasting both of our time.

He's overdue for ignore, dude.

Some people are worth the discourse, and some simply aren't.

baja
10-28-2010, 12:28 PM
He's overdue for ignore, dude.

Some people are worth the discourse, and some simply aren't.

I'm not a fan of the ignore feature. It is so easy to glance at the user name and scroll on by if need be but I like the option to be able to easily read an idiot once in a while. I find the physiology of it interesting. And almost everyone has an interesting point or funny thought once in a while. Just the other Jhins had a pretty good post.

I learned from my AA meetings years ago you never know where some important insight is going to come from. "Out of the mouths of Babes"

Drek
10-28-2010, 12:44 PM
Again, they said the same crap with Shanahan. Bowlen always said that him and Sundquist were in on all decisions. Everyone knows that isn't true. I'm sure Bowlen had to OK decisions but they were still Shanahans decisions. The same thing is playing out with McDaniels. Either way, if it is a group effort, McDaniels and Xanders are failing on the GM front. I'm not sure how that changes any of these arguments unless you are trying to say McDaniels has no say. People aren't going to want McDaniels fired but keep Xanders around...

Some of the posts in this thread are just ridiculous. I especially like the talk of this past draft being better than a draft that had starters picked in pretty much every round. Funny stuff.

I also looked it up and it was Bowlen who said he fired Goodman. At the same time he said they were looking for other scouts because player evaluation isn't Xanders thing. I'm not positive but I would think that would be good enough of a clue that Xanders isn't the one making personnel decisions outside of "we can/can't afford that guy".

So you know you're a complete mental midget right?

You misrepresented who took the lead on trading Cutler (Bowlen) and firing the Goodmans (again, Bowlen).

Now you try making a sniping comment about the 2010 draft compared to the 2006 draft without actually sticking with the topic, after all of the praise given to the 2010 draft was prefaced with statements like "from a movement standpoint" and "not relative to the talent we actually walked away with, but how it was managed".

You're the equivalent of a teenager who sneaks out one night with daddy's porsche, hits a homeless guy, and keeps on driving while pissing your pants. You come into threads, make half-assed douche bag comments, then continue to run from any real debate.

baja
10-28-2010, 12:49 PM
So you know you're a complete mental midget right?

You misrepresented who took the lead on trading Cutler (Bowlen) and firing the Goodmans (again, Bowlen).

Now you try making a sniping comment about the 2010 draft compared to the 2006 draft without actually sticking with the topic, after all of the praise given to the 2010 draft was prefaced with statements like "from a movement standpoint" and "not relative to the talent we actually walked away with, but how it was managed".

You're the equivalent of a teenager who sneaks out one night with daddy's porsche, hits a homeless guy, and keeps on driving while pissing your pants. You come into threads, make half-assed douche bag comments, then continue to run from any real debate.

Other than that how's he doin?

v2micca
10-28-2010, 12:53 PM
Orakpo is a worse fit on the strong side of our 3-4 than Ayers is. Ayers, prior to getting hurt, was looking like an outstanding all around LB despite no help up front. Why would we regret getting a pass rushing DE/OLB when we've got a superior pass rusher in Doom and a more diverse OLB in Ayers opposite him?

I like Ayers, I like him a lot and think that he will go on to do great things for us. That being said, I would rather have Orakpo. Admittedly, I'm no talent scout and I haven't watched a ton of tape on him, but he just seems to be quicker and more explosive off of the snap than Ayers.

That would have freed us to take Alex Mack with our second first round pick and let him spend a year seasoning behind Casey Wiegmann. Of course, this is just getting into pointless realms of wish fulfillment now.

If Orakpo was never even targeted by our front office, then so be it. But I still believe there were better options than taking a running back.

HAT
10-28-2010, 01:17 PM
He's overdue for ignore, dude.

Some people are worth the discourse, and some simply aren't.

I would never put drag queen on ignore. It's funny to watch him just parrot things other smarter dissenters say. (Like rev, 'beef or LK).

What do you think the whole name change was about? He got his feelings hurt by getting lumped in with the BF7, Rasta, steeledude, jhiz type of poster that he was. He needs acceptance. So first, he changed his name because dragster was tainted. Second, he kisses Taco's ass every chance he gets and pretty much just copy/pastes those anti-McD folks who can at least argue intelligently without straight up trolling. He's trying to fit in with that group but you can see him slowly reverting back to the straight troll posts.

I'm not a psychologist but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

jhns
10-28-2010, 01:18 PM
So you know you're a complete mental midget right?

You misrepresented who took the lead on trading Cutler (Bowlen) and firing the Goodmans (again, Bowlen).

Now you try making a sniping comment about the 2010 draft compared to the 2006 draft without actually sticking with the topic, after all of the praise given to the 2010 draft was prefaced with statements like "from a movement standpoint" and "not relative to the talent we actually walked away with, but how it was managed".

You're the equivalent of a teenager who sneaks out one night with daddy's porsche, hits a homeless guy, and keeps on driving while pissing your pants. You come into threads, make half-assed douche bag comments, then continue to run from any real debate.

I don't misrepresent a thing. Who did all the talking during the Cutler thing? Who was it that was listening to trades and saying that they would continue to do so? Who was it that nagotiated the trade and got took it because it inculded the QB they wanted? None of this was Bowlen....

As for you whiney post. This isn't unexpected. I comment about football and you cry about me. I am the mental midget as you deflect any critisism of McDaniels and claim that he is Jesus. You throw Shanahan under the bus all the time to praise lord McDaniels. You hate on guys that have actually done something for this organization in favor of a guy that has done nothing. You make lame ass comments about this past draft being better than anything Shanahan had and then cry when people laugh at you. You spin every single thing to be pro McDaniels. You talk like he has never made a mistake and yet the team has only gotten worse with every game that he has been here.

You are pathetic. Some of us root for the Denver Broncos. You are a classic example of somone that roots for the Denver McDaniels....

jhns
10-28-2010, 01:19 PM
Other than that how's he doin?

I must be doing pretty good. Look how off topic and flustered he got from my response.

baja
10-28-2010, 01:22 PM
I must be doing pretty good. Look how off topic and flustered he got from my response.

Is that you goal?

Does that make you proud?

Do you know the definition of trolling?

Dagmar
10-28-2010, 01:23 PM
I'm not a fan of the ignore feature. It is so easy to glance at the user name and scroll on by if need be but I like the option to be able to easily read an idiot once in a while. I find the physiology of it interesting. And almost everyone has an interesting point or funny thought once in a while. Just the other Jhins had a pretty good post.

I learned from my AA meetings years ago you never know where some important insight is going to come from. "Out of the mouths of Babes"

That's a lot more ****ing nice a response than I got yesterday when I suggested the same thing about Bob. AND it was in bold.

baja
10-28-2010, 01:26 PM
That's a lot more ****ing nice a response than I got yesterday when I suggested the same thing about Bob. AND it was in bold.

I already apologized when I reped you.

Do you expect flowers?

I've had American girlfriends less demanding and more forgiving than you and you don't even bring a pussy to the table.

jhns
10-28-2010, 01:27 PM
Oh and I can settle this "McDaniels may not have power" crap. If he has no power, why did Bowlen come out after the first offseason with that "he has made mistakes" speach? They hadn't played yet. The mistakes weren't with preperation or play calling. The only way he could have made those rookie mistakes is by making GM decisions. The only things that had happened were the draft and free agency (and Cutler). I know you guys want to back McDaniels at all costs but even the owner has admitted to his mistakes. It also is very obvious who is in charge of personnel decisions.

Dagmar
10-28-2010, 01:28 PM
I would never put drag queen on ignore. It's funny to watch him just parrot things other smarter dissenters say. (Like rev, 'beef or LK).

What do you think the whole name change was about? He got his feelings hurt by getting lumped in with the BF7, Rasta, steeledude, jhiz type of poster that he was. He needs acceptance. So first, he changed his name because dragster was tainted. Second, he kisses Taco's ass every chance he gets and pretty much just copy/pastes those anti-McD folks who can at least argue intelligently without straight up trolling. He's trying to fit in with that group but you can see him slowly reverting back to the straight troll posts.

I'm not a psychologist but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

The night he spammed the board with 5 versions of the same thread before getting banned a week later for homophobic abuse of a family
member led to him changing his name about a month later, not posting for a spell then getting all high and mighty.

Ad that's the story of draaaaaaagster.

Dagmar
10-28-2010, 01:30 PM
I already apologized when I reped you.

Do you expect flowers?

I've had American girlfriends less demanding and more forgiving than you and you don't even bring a p***Y to the table.

I hadn't seen that. But continue with the over reactions when it isn't someone from tour clique.

Do you need some midol this week?

jhns
10-28-2010, 01:31 PM
Is that you goal?

Does that make you proud?

Do you know the definition of trolling?

Him getting mad at my football takes is not me trolling. That is Drek being a little bitch. If I get mad that he always defends McDaniels, no matter what, is he trolling? How about you?

Now your guys' posts that want to turn this into a thread about the posters IS trolling.

baja
10-28-2010, 01:36 PM
Oh and I can settle this "McDaniels may not have power" crap. If he has no power, why did Bowlen come out after the first offseason with that "he has made mistakes" speach? They hadn't played yet. The mistakes weren't with preperation or play calling. The only way he could have made those rookie mistakes is by making GM decisions. The only things that had happened were the draft and free agency (and Cutler). I know you guys want to back McDaniels at all costs but even the owner has admitted to his mistakes. It also is very obvious who is in charge of personnel decisions.


I love how all you Miss Cloes promote Josh to full GM because he "made mistakes" according to Pat. Those mistakes could be among thousands of issues yet it in your (not so) Sherlock Homes brains it can only mean Josh is the true GM.

Never mind Pat came out and said never again would one man in his organization have so much power as Mike Shanahan did. Pat went on to say he planned to be in his office every day and keep close tabs on the day to day operations of his team. He was basically saying he was fully aware that thinks had gotten way out of hand under Mike and he was taking his club back.

baja
10-28-2010, 01:39 PM
I hadn't seen that. But continue with the over reactions when it isn't someone from tour clique.

Do you need some midol this week?

Look dude - you whine - that's just the truth.

I would think after about ten guys point that out you might ask yourself,

"Could it be True, I whine?"

It doesn't make you a bad person ya know ;D

jhns
10-28-2010, 01:42 PM
I love how all you Miss Cloes promote Josh to full GM because he "made mistakes" according to Pat. Those mistakes could be among thousands of issues yet it in your (not so) Sherlock Homes brains it can only mean Josh is the true GM.

Never mind Pat came out and said never again would one man in his organization have so much power as Mike Shanahan did. Pat went on to say he planned to be in his office every day and keep close tabs on the day to day operations of his team. He was basically saying he was fully aware that thinks had gotten way out of hand under Mike and he was taking his club back.

He said the same thing under Shanahan. "All decisions come through me."

Again, the only issues that he could have made mistakes with were GM issues. Coaching issues involve play and preperation. We hadn't played yet so there is no way Bowlen could know if he made coaching mistakes. Also, when Bowlen was saying all of what you just said, he also said that he hires football people to handle football stuff. He said he trusts who he hires. He has contradicted himself a lot. He did so under Shanahan. This isn't new. Again, he probably does have to approve every decision. And again, he did so under Shanahan.

Also, just to be clear, I am not saying Xanders doesn't have say. I am saying McDaniels does. All this means is that the arguments are all the same but people just leave out Xanders. If they are talking bad about a McDaniels move, just pretend they said both. If they do fail, I doubt one stays as the other is fired anyways.

Dagmar
10-28-2010, 01:45 PM
Look dude - you whine - that's just the truth.

I would think after about ten guys point that out you might ask yourself,

"Could it be True, I whine?"

It doesn't make you a bad person ya know ;D

Go **** yourself baja.

baja
10-28-2010, 01:52 PM
Go **** yourself baja.

See what I mean you can't handle constructive criticism I'm beginning to think you are a women pretending to be a man. That's not meant to be an insult it just means you think and react a lot like a woman would. Which is just different, not better or worse than a man.

HAT
10-28-2010, 02:10 PM
Go **** yourself baja.

LOL

FWIW, I've never gotten the impression that you whine Dag.

Smiling Assassin27
10-28-2010, 02:15 PM
See what I mean you can't handle constructive criticism I'm beginning to think you are a women pretending to be a man. That's not meant to be an insult it just means you think and react a lot like a woman would. Which is just different, not better or worse than a man.

Well, he did offer you some Midol eariler. What male has Midol readily available? Hilarious!

TailgateNut
10-28-2010, 02:16 PM
Well somebody screwed it up. I drove by the stadium today and saw that they had erected a staue of ANUBIS in a bronco jersey. No ****ing wonder we got "buried by the faid"

http://www.anubis.org/anubis.html

Who The **** thought this was a great idea?

Blueflame
10-28-2010, 02:17 PM
Do we need a group hug in here? :P

TailgateNut
10-28-2010, 02:18 PM
Do we need a group hug in here? :P


Only if we are allowed to "hug" some people "around the neck".:yayaya:

baja
10-28-2010, 02:19 PM
LOL

FWIW, I've never gotten the impression that you whine Dag.

I could almost hear him stomping off down the stairs. ;D

Rusty come back lets dialog....

baja
10-28-2010, 02:21 PM
Do we need a group hug in here? :P

Maybe but I think we something for ass burn even more.

Blueflame
10-28-2010, 02:23 PM
Only if we are allowed to "hug" some people "around the neck".:yayaya:

As long as there is no throat-punching... LOL

Blueflame
10-28-2010, 02:24 PM
Maybe but I think we something for ass burn even more.

I am not administering suppositories.... :spit:

HAT
10-28-2010, 02:27 PM
I am not administering suppositories.... :spit:

So you're okay with topical ointment? :yayaya:

Blueflame
10-28-2010, 02:30 PM
So you're okay with topical ointment? :yayaya:

Can I administer it with the toe of my boot? Hehehe...

baja
10-28-2010, 02:30 PM
I am not administering suppositories.... :spit:


LOL Understandable...

well there is always good old reliable Bag Balm.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-28-2010, 02:30 PM
I am not administering suppositories.... :spit:

You are not administering anything.

baja
10-28-2010, 02:33 PM
I actually like Rusty

But when he gets ass burnt like this he usually takes off for a couple of days and returns with a new user handle.


Maybe to make him feel better we can offer up some new user names for him?

Rascal
10-28-2010, 02:37 PM
A coaches job is to win now, while a GM's job is to build a team to win in the future. When somebody has both jobs there is a conflict of interest. If Shanny couldn't do it, Billicheat doesn't do it, then there is no way Josh is going to be able to do it.

HAT
10-28-2010, 02:39 PM
You are not administering anything.

Oh Snap! ROFL!

Blueflame
10-28-2010, 02:40 PM
You are not administering anything.

This is what I'd like to administer... what is most needed around here, IMO.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii73/dmajorfifth/chillpill.jpg

HAT
10-28-2010, 02:41 PM
Can I administer it with the toe of my boot? Hehehe...

I don't think baja would like that too much. (But you never know!)

baja
10-28-2010, 02:56 PM
I don't think baja would like that too much. (But you never know!)


What's the shoe shaped like?

Blueflame
10-28-2010, 03:02 PM
What's the shoe shaped like?

I have multiple options... some of my boot toes are more rounded; my thigh-high boots have quite pointy toes though.

baja
10-28-2010, 03:15 PM
I have multiple options... some of my boot toes are more rounded; my thigh-high boots have quite pointy toes though.

Well could we forget about the foot wear and could I just have a back rub instead?

Blueflame
10-28-2010, 03:28 PM
Well could we forget about the foot wear and could I just have a back rub instead?

Only if I get a back rub too. :D

baja
10-28-2010, 03:37 PM
Only if I get a back rub too. :D

Is there any other way? ;D

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-28-2010, 03:56 PM
This is what I'd like to administer... what is most needed around here, IMO.

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii73/dmajorfifth/chillpill.jpg

What an odd looking suppository. :yayaya: And enormous.

TheReverend
10-28-2010, 03:56 PM
Count me as a "no" even though it's only because of the way you worded the poll options.

I vote "no" because I feel McDaniels should be able to pick the tools to write his own destiny. That being said, I think he IS in over his head and should delegating certain parts of the team better to his staff. I don't like the micromanagement feel he has. Being a headcoach AND calling the plays and designing the game plan is already too much, in my opinion. For him to be trying to fix the running game midseason and have his hands in the defense as well, etc, its all way too much.

Blueflame
10-28-2010, 04:05 PM
What an odd looking suppository. :yayaya: And enormous.

I think it's intended to be held firmly between the buttcheeks with the intended effect of preventing any sand from entering the rectal orifice.

Kaylore
10-28-2010, 04:08 PM
Count me as a "no" even though it's only because of the way you worded the poll options.

I vote "no" because I feel McDaniels should be able to pick the tools to write his own destiny. That being said, I think he IS in over his head and should delegating certain parts of the team better to his staff. I don't like the micromanagement feel he has. Being a headcoach AND calling the plays and designing the game plan is already too much, in my opinion. For him to be trying to fix the running game midseason and have his hands in the defense as well, etc, its all way too much.

This is a good post. I agree. The answer is "no" because Bowlen did what he did to try and improve the team. He's given McD a long enough rope to hang himself with or pull himself out. Whichever. If McD sinks, it won't be because we didn't give him a fair shake and that's all you need. The loss of resources and weakening of the team would be bad, but the lesson learned on what does and does not work would be learned at least, and then Bowlen and Ellis will hopefully be a bit wiser. I agree, sometimes the key to be being a good leader is learning to trust others and let go - especially when you believe your way is better.

HAT
10-28-2010, 04:12 PM
this is a good post. I agree. The answer is "no" because bowlen did what he did to try and improve the team. He's given mcd a long enough rope to hang himself with or pull himself out. Whichever. If mcd sinks, it won't be because we didn't give him a fair shake and that's all you need. .

+1

OrangenBlueOhio
10-28-2010, 04:22 PM
It's a painful year, but it's way to early to throw Josh under the bus.

Nah. We should be seeing the corpse in the rearview any second now!:yayaya:

24champ
10-28-2010, 04:45 PM
This is a good post. I agree. The answer is "no" because Bowlen did what he did to try and improve the team. He's given McD a long enough rope to hang himself with or pull himself out. Whichever. If McD sinks, it won't be because we didn't give him a fair shake and that's all you need. The loss of resources and weakening of the team would be bad, but the lesson learned on what does and does not work would be learned at least, and then Bowlen and Ellis will hopefully be a bit wiser. I agree, sometimes the key to be being a good leader is learning to trust others and let go - especially when you believe your way is better.

This thread took a weird turn, so thanks for bringing it back on topic.


Now I disagree with Ellis ever learning and doing better. The guy has zero football experience, none. He should be fired or relegated to Chief Financial Officer for the Broncos and let Elway have a bigger role in the Franchise in football operations, and to be an influence in the room when it comes to football decisions. Ellis has no business taking part of those meetings.

I mean c'mon, just look at this guys resume and point out to me where he has experience in running a football team?


Ellis, who began his career with the Broncos as their Director of Marketing from 1983-85, is responsible for ensuring the Broncos’ business and financial objectives are met. His responsibilities include business and financial management, marketing and sales functions, media relations, ticket operations, and facilities and administrative operations for the National Football League team.

A driving force in helping with the creation of INVESCO Field at Mile High, which opened in 2001, Ellis is an extremely active participant in all aspects of the stadium’s management and development. In this capacity, he has worked very closely with important members of the political, business and civic communities that comprise the cultural fabric of Denver.

Ellis came to his present position with comprehensive expertise in the areas of stadium operations, fiscal planning, personnel management, marketing, media and community relations. He also oversees Stadium Management Company (SMC), which operates and manages INVESCO Field at Mile High.

During his first stint with the Broncos as their Director of Marketing from 1983-85, Ellis was in charge of all marketing and promotions implemented by the club during that time. He left the Broncos following the 1985 season to obtain his master’s degree from the J.L. Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University. He graduated from Northwestern in 1988 and joined the NFL in 1990.

While with the NFL, Ellis was involved in several aspects of league operations with a strong focus on new stadium development. He was especially involved in the league’s oversight of the Cleveland Browns’ re-entry into the NFL in 1999.

Ellis represents the Broncos on numerous boards and civic organizations in the metropolitan area and received his bachelor’s degree from Colorado College in 1980.

http://www.denverbroncos.com/team/staff/Joe-Ellis/0cc7962a-d3b5-447e-8641-34b02afe3bf2



Bring back Elway as VP of Football Operations, Bowlen.

WolfpackGuy
10-28-2010, 05:11 PM
Not really a smoking gun, but Bowlen didn't help by waiting OVER a month to rearrange the front office.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_11693597

I wonder if the "anxiety" mentioned in the article was the beginning of the Jayby saga...

montrose
10-29-2010, 12:47 AM
Crazy looking back that when McDaniels was hired, Goodman was supposed to be the de-facto GM and have personnel say. Speaking of Goodman, has anyone heard from him since his firing? With his drafting record, exempelary in the opinion of some like my buddy BroncoBuff, it's suprising no one even brought him in for an interview. I personally wouldn't give him an "A" grade but a "B-" or "C+" would be fair which might be better than some of his former peers.

BroncoBuff
10-29-2010, 12:52 AM
I vote "no" because I feel McDaniels should be able to pick the tools to write his own destiny.
The Parcells "shop for your own groceries" philosophy, I hear that.

But what if he's never even been to the grocery store before? What if all this is new to him ... heck, he's never even had a press conference before. Let him coach now, shop later.


That being said, I think he IS in over his head and should delegating certain parts of the team better to his staff. I don't like the micromanagement feel he has. Being a headcoach AND calling the plays and designing the game plan is already too much, in my opinion. For him to be trying to fix the running game midseason and have his hands in the defense as well, etc, its all way too much.

Definitely, but you can't blame him ... this is his big chance, the instinct to dive into every issue is a powerful one on this level. Like somebody said, he'd cut off a finger to win ... but I just think there's too much on his plate.

BroncoBuff
10-29-2010, 12:55 AM
Speaking of Goodman, has anyone heard from him since his firing? With his drafting record, exempelary in the opinion of some like my buddy BroncoBuff, it's suprising no one even brought him in for an interview.

I know, I've been wondering the same thing ... Shanahan has Bruce Allen there, but you'd think he could be scouting director or some damn thing.

Maybe he's a secret a-hole a la Alex Gibbs ???

BroncoBuff
10-29-2010, 01:04 AM
Further, what makes Goodman's draft's so special?

You're serious? I won't gush yet again, but for one, 19 of the 20 players he drafted in '06, '07 and '08 are still in the league (Eslinger). Though some like Powell and maybe Jarvis Moss are on the edge. The '06 and '07 draftees are now past the length of the average NFL player career. Maybe just a couple big playmakers .. BM, Dumervil, but lots of the solid bread and butter guys you stock your roster with. He hit again and again and again on 2nd day picks, uncanny imo. And remember,

Curiously, and perhaps unsurprisingly, Shanahan is keeping two of them afloat, Lichtensteiger and Torain. Despite Torain's recent success, without Shanahan he's selling cell phones at a kiosk now.

TheReverend
10-29-2010, 01:35 AM
Crazy looking back that when McDaniels was hired, Goodman was supposed to be the de-facto GM and have personnel say. Speaking of Goodman, has anyone heard from him since his firing? With his drafting record, exempelary in the opinion of some like my buddy BroncoBuff, it's suprising no one even brought him in for an interview. I personally wouldn't give him an "A" grade but a "B-" or "C+" would be fair which might be better than some of his former peers.

I'd assume that Bowlen pays out the remainder of the contracts. We've heard he usually does that and always AT LEAST covers a year.

So they could still be being paid. Also, the older Goodman was the one worth a **** and he wasn't too young. Maybe he just wants to hang it up.

Drek
10-29-2010, 04:58 AM
I'd assume that Bowlen pays out the remainder of the contracts. We've heard he usually does that and always AT LEAST covers a year.

So they could still be being paid. Also, the older Goodman was the one worth a **** and he wasn't too young. Maybe he just wants to hang it up.

Bowlen did continue to pay their contracts. That was the primary reason they let Jim Goodman go, because they didn't want to force him to choose between supporting his son and fulfilling his contract.



Crazy looking back that when McDaniels was hired, Goodman was supposed to be the de-facto GM and have personnel say. Speaking of Goodman, has anyone heard from him since his firing? With his drafting record, exempelary in the opinion of some like my buddy BroncoBuff, it's suprising no one even brought him in for an interview. I personally wouldn't give him an "A" grade but a "B-" or "C+" would be fair which might be better than some of his former peers.

Thing is Goodman didn't want to be a GM. He wanted to keep running the scouting department and leave the path open for his son. If it wasn't for that he'd likely have been named the actual GM and still be here.

SouthStndJunkie
10-30-2010, 03:49 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/paige/ci_16473580

Paige: Trying to find a clue in London

In the crowd was Dan Rooney, chairman emeritus of the Pittsburgh Steelers and the ambassador of Ireland. Rooney said he would be cheering for the Broncos on Sunday. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell and Broncos COO Joe Ellis also joined the evening's festivities, but not owner Pat Bowlen, who, it is suspected, is not on the trip.

Neither Goodell nor Ellis wanted to address my question about what's wrong with the Broncos. Nor did coach Josh McDaniels, who I taught earlier in the day how to swing a cricket bat before the Broncos' practice at the legendary Oval Cricket Ground.

SouthStndJunkie
10-30-2010, 03:54 AM
Does Pat Bowlen make many public appearances these days?

I think there is some validity to the questions about his memory loss.

This game/week in London is something an owner should definitely be at....it's as much a promotion of the NFL as it is the actual game.

He rarely speaks or does interviews that I hear or read. He was never a vocal or boisterous owner, but he would do interviews and would be seen on occasion and would show up on the sidelines from time to time.

The man deserves his privacy if he wants it, but I think there is validity the rumors about his memory loss.

Joe Ellis looks to be the head man these days.

baja
10-30-2010, 04:23 AM
Does Pat Bowlen make many public appearances these days?

I think there is some validity to the questions about his memory loss.

This game/week in London is something an owner should definitely be at....it's as much a promotion of the NFL as it is the actual game.

He rarely speaks or does interviews that I hear or read. He was never a vocal or boisterous owner, but he would do interviews and would be seen on occasion and would show up on the sidelines from time to time.

The man deserves his privacy if he wants it, but I think there is validity the rumors about his memory loss.

Joe Ellis looks to be the head man these days.

I agree, it was shocking to me reading Pat is not there in London with his team.

BroncoBuff
10-30-2010, 07:23 AM
I agree, it was shocking to me reading Pat is not there in London with his team.

Very strange.

Would we trust Annabelle with this team? Actually as much as we do Pat .... ;D

baja
10-30-2010, 07:30 AM
Very strange.

Would we trust Annabelle with this team? Actually as much as we do Pat .... ;D

If Pat is really not in London than something is very wrong with him.

Now if you guys really feel the need to panic this would be a good reason to do it over.

How about you guys that claim to have inside Dove Valley contacts, what's the word on Pat Bowlen???

CEH
10-30-2010, 09:32 AM
I think the buck stops at the top. That is not Josh's fault. He was hired to work within what I believe is a failed structure of power at Dove Valley. If this were the GB Packers with a board of directors they would be looking squarely at Pat or Joe as much if not more so than Josh.

It doesn't take the failure of a 32 year old head coach to know that this power structure inside Dove Valley does not work in today's NFL. Has Pat and Joe not been paying attention. No team has even a tandem working relationship. Not Pitts, Not Balt, not Indy, not Atl, not even TB or KC.

I'd almost bet a dollar to a donut that if there is another change in Denver you will see a change at Gm and HC. That alone will show the failed implementation of power currently at Dove Valley


There is a GM that will hire and fire the coach and an owner that will hire and hire the GM. And to introduce two rookies into these two most important positions in the team at the same time has the potential for success but more than likely failure based on history. Just like trading a 2nd for a 1st has not worked out in 15+ years to think this dual power structure will work in the NFL shows a lack of vision at the top.

I believe you need a solid GM calling the shots and directing the team forward. When they changed from Shanny to McD they did not first hire a GM or promote X in fact they had Jim Goodman, Bowlen and Ellis interview Josh with Ellis doing a final interview. Anytime you hire a HC and then basically hire a GM afterward to work in tandem it doesn't work and by default gives the young HC a sense of power. Xanders had been in a dual GM role with Goodman for at least 12 months . What went on in those two months after Josh was hired that couldn't have been made on Jan 2 prior to searching for a HC. I find it hard to believe Xanders GM prowess materialized right in front of Pat's eyes in those two month. More the case Xanders worked well together with Josh or Josh liked Brain better. Either way it is still a dual partnership not the typical GM coach structure. I read recently Josh has final say on all talent acquisitions. This is basically the job of the GM so by default Josh has more power than X. Is it X that has imported all these NE castoffs? I seriously doubt it. In fact if he had any say I think they would not be importing alot of these NE guys.

This is where the 20+ years of experience Joe and Pat have has to trump the 32 year old McDaniels. Josh is trying his best but I mentioned this in the Brady Quinn thread when everyone was excited to have Quinn and now Tebow and the coaching they would get. That's true in the off season but Josh and the coaches will not provide one on one tutoring during the season. Josh's demands are just too great. It's something he mentioned post '09 season.

In NE there exists the "inner circle" made up a 1-2 men who call the shots during the draft. While Josh was in NE, it was BB/Pioli. The other coaches provided analysis yet no one can say that Josh was privy to the actual evaluation process that when on inside the "inner circle".
His talent evaluation so far has alot to be desired. Yes he can work with the help of other teams willing to trade a "single" draft but bottom line is are the players good enough to fit his vision. At some point you have to have talent not just 53 Larry Izzo's who have a team first mentality. Some of these draft picks need to be All Pro level to move the team forward.

I'm old school and the buck stops at the top but I firmly believe Denver still needs to retain Josh as HC. I hope all can come to some sort of adjustment to keep Josh around. I may be up to Josh himself to accept a lesser role
We have to see how Josh and Tebow do together. Tebow is not your normal QB and a new HC might jettison so there goes another 1st round pick out the window. I hope Josh takes whatever recommendations come down from above and is not stubborn enough to change. If his "power running scheme" is any indication I have my concerns he may put up a fight.

Watch Denver go on a 6 game winning streak. I sure hope so like I said I want to maintain Josh

I guess I vote "Too much on his shoulders"

Broncoman13
10-30-2010, 10:07 AM
Knowshon is a solid pick at worst, with flashes of being a game changer if we can ever give him an OL to work with and get him through a pre-season healthy.

You're also discounting Ayers, McBath, and Bruton in this critique. Fact is after the third round the draft goes from a 50/50 proposition to a full on crap shoot. Over his first five picks he hit on what looks to be three good players for us. He then actually pulled a solid contributor out of the 4th-7th rounds with Bruton. A 7th rounder like Schleuter not even making it to pre-season is nothing surprising, nor is a 5th round QB getting dropped when you add a 1st round QBOTF type guy the next year. Same with Olsen, his job was far from guaranteed as soon as we drafted three OL who all offered more versatility and better draft pedigree than he did the very next year.

Quinn isn't working out, which sucks. He had to cut bait on Smith likely before he wanted to because Smith didn't work hard enough his rookie year and then in camp we had Vaughn and Thompson come on strong after his job. The worthwhile thing to note though is that he turned Smith into a TE who fills the role that Quinn is leaving vacant. Its a ****ty way to go about getting our long term TE, but its better than what a lot of teams do in this scenario (cut both of the disappointments, burn more draft picks trying to fill both holes).


Can anyone really gauge how much pressure he feels and how he's handling it?

I got to be honest. If McDaniels didn't tear into the team after how they lost to the Jets I'd be really damn disappointed. He and Martindale DESTROYED Schottenheimer and Ryan from a gameplan/coaching perspective. Our guys just completely failed to execute. Even still we had the game well within our grasp until we caved and handed it over with a late penalty on what should have been a game winning defensive stop.

Much like the Colts game McDaniels put the players in position to win the game, showed them that he had faith in their ability to win the game, and they rewarded him by not getting the job done. That right now obviously has to be the single biggest source of distress on McDaniels. The complete lack of a killer instinct from both the offensive and defensive sides of the ball.

We as Broncos fans though should be getting used to it. This team hasn't had a killer instinct since 2005 and that was only a brief flash. Before that you've got to go back to the Elway years.

And here we come full circle on the FO moves McDaniels has made and we see why he's drafted Tim Tebow. No matter what your take is on Tebow's passing technique or ability to read defenses Tebow displayed the killer instinct of a 20' great white surrounded by bleeding seals all through college. You can't teach that. McDaniels knows this because he saw that killer instinct in Brady then tried to teach it to Cassel and now Orton to no avail.

Its all up in the air at this point but I personally view the 2010 draft as a front office masterwork that easily outstrips anything Shanahan and the Goodmans achieved. McDaniels turned a disparate collection of picks into the exact positions he needed to hit on his primary targets, then grabbed great value throughout the rest of the draft. Our '08 and '06 drafts were just grabbing BPA and getting some real good breaks. We didn't jockey for position to grab the guys we actually knew could be play makers and didn't want to miss out on. That shows a far greater insight into what your team needs and how other teams are valuing those players, the real heart of great drafting.


Good post as always. Still, I have to wonder if a GM type that has control of personnel decisions wouldn't be the best way to go. I agree that the coaches have put the players in a position to succeed. But when those players don't get it done and you are also the one making the decisions on those players, you have to own that as well. When it comes to Xs and Os I think Josh is a very good coach. Not sure what I think about Wink at this point. I think he is one of the bottom 10 in terms of being a DC... but time will tell. Seems it little too similar to the Shanahan days and what was going wrong with this organization over the last several years.

One last point. That killer instinct you speak of that allows you to close games out, it comes in the run game(s). Being able to run, especially in the 4th Quarter is what counts the most. Being able to stop the run and get the ball back for that 4th Quarter opportunity is equally important. Look at the Titans game. If the Titans were able to run the ball effectively against us, they could have won that game. Or had we not been able to stop the run in the 4th Quarter, we wouldn't have had the opportunity to win the game. At the beginning of the year I was in favor of keeping the Power Scheme until our players figured it out and played with a purpose. At this point, I think it may be prudent to do "whatever it takes" to run the ball effectively. If that means more endaround plays to guys like Royal or DT, fine. If it means switching up schemes to more of a zone blocking scheme, that is fine as well. When you are consistently in 2nd and 8 or 9 situations you become very predictable. There have been times when we appear to run the ball only to balance the playcalling so it's not so lopsided toward passing. Gotta get that fixed and it's time to look at your personnel and go with whatever they can do best. That really is the bottom line. A good coach will adapt to his personnel, not have personnel adapt to his scheme. Seems that college coaches are a little better at this with some notable exceptions. Look no further than Mack Brown or Urban Meyer. You lose that QB running ability and both offenses look average...if that.

baja
10-30-2010, 10:30 AM
Good post as always. Still, I have to wonder if a GM type that has control of personnel decisions wouldn't be the best way to go. I agree that the coaches have put the players in a position to succeed. But when those players don't get it done and you are also the one making the decisions on those players, you have to own that as well. When it comes to Xs and Os I think Josh is a very good coach. Not sure what I think about Wink at this point. I think he is one of the bottom 10 in terms of being a DC... but time will tell. Seems it little too similar to the Shanahan days and what was going wrong with this organization over the last several years.

One last point. That killer instinct you speak of that allows you to close games out, it comes in the run game(s). Being able to run, especially in the 4th Quarter is what counts the most. Being able to stop the run and get the ball back for that 4th Quarter opportunity is equally important. Look at the Titans game. If the Titans were able to run the ball effectively against us, they could have won that game. Or had we not been able to stop the run in the 4th Quarter, we wouldn't have had the opportunity to win the game. At the beginning of the year I was in favor of keeping the Power Scheme until our players figured it out and played with a purpose. At this point, I think it may be prudent to do "whatever it takes" to run the ball effectively. If that means more endaround plays to guys like Royal or DT, fine. If it means switching up schemes to more of a zone blocking scheme, that is fine as well. When you are consistently in 2nd and 8 or 9 situations you become very predictable. There have been times when we appear to run the ball only to balance the playcalling so it's not so lopsided toward passing. Gotta get that fixed and it's time to look at your personnel and go with whatever they can do best. That really is the bottom line. A good coach will adapt to his personnel, not have personnel adapt to his scheme. Seems that college coaches are a little better at this with some notable exceptions. Look no further than Mack Brown or Urban Meyer. You lose that QB running ability and both offenses look average...if that.

I don't know why so many people assume that the power structure at Dove Valley is the same now as it was under Mike Shanahan. There is zero evidence to base that belief on. All word out of Dove Valley is that Josh and Xanders collaborate and Ellis and Bowlen have the final say.

One very visible example of that is Josh wanted Cutler to report for work as Jay said he would, it was Bowlen that pulled the trigger on the trade. That much we know.

Drek
10-30-2010, 10:40 AM
Good post as always. Still, I have to wonder if a GM type that has control of personnel decisions wouldn't be the best way to go. I agree that the coaches have put the players in a position to succeed. But when those players don't get it done and you are also the one making the decisions on those players, you have to own that as well. When it comes to Xs and Os I think Josh is a very good coach. Not sure what I think about Wink at this point. I think he is one of the bottom 10 in terms of being a DC... but time will tell. Seems it little too similar to the Shanahan days and what was going wrong with this organization over the last several years.

One last point. That killer instinct you speak of that allows you to close games out, it comes in the run game(s). Being able to run, especially in the 4th Quarter is what counts the most. Being able to stop the run and get the ball back for that 4th Quarter opportunity is equally important. Look at the Titans game. If the Titans were able to run the ball effectively against us, they could have won that game. Or had we not been able to stop the run in the 4th Quarter, we wouldn't have had the opportunity to win the game. At the beginning of the year I was in favor of keeping the Power Scheme until our players figured it out and played with a purpose. At this point, I think it may be prudent to do "whatever it takes" to run the ball effectively. If that means more endaround plays to guys like Royal or DT, fine. If it means switching up schemes to more of a zone blocking scheme, that is fine as well. When you are consistently in 2nd and 8 or 9 situations you become very predictable. There have been times when we appear to run the ball only to balance the playcalling so it's not so lopsided toward passing. Gotta get that fixed and it's time to look at your personnel and go with whatever they can do best. That really is the bottom line. A good coach will adapt to his personnel, not have personnel adapt to his scheme. Seems that college coaches are a little better at this with some notable exceptions. Look no further than Mack Brown or Urban Meyer. You lose that QB running ability and both offenses look average...if that.

1. A lot of teams show killer instinct without much of a running game. The Patriots best running back for the three seasons prior to this was Lawrence Maroney. Same with the Colts. What you're talking about is closing out a game once you get the advantage, and yes, that is best done through the running game. What I am talking about is the entire team having complete, unshakable belief that they're winning the game on Sunday and most of the time you get that from an elite QB.

The Saints defense is pretty solid now and was pretty solid last year. Before that they sucked. The cast of players hasn't had a complete overhaul, just a few key additions. But everyone on it is playing far better. Why? Could it possibly be a result of knowing that if they never give up odds are Drew Brees will pull their asses out of the fire?

The Colts D ranges form mediocre to very bad any given year, but we've seen several playoff runs where that defense does a complete 180 and takes over some games. How can they suddenly change momentum like that? Because the D knows Manning will always keep them within striking distance of a win, so they never give up.

The NFL is not the league it used to be. Rules changes have altered even how players perceive their game. Unless you have a perfect coalescence of events (great D, dominant running game, elite special teams, and a QB who never hurts you) all come together in a perfect season you do not win a title in the NFL now without that kind of iconic QB.

2. The NFL is all about building your roster to suit your system. For a lot of college programs its all about getting the best recruits and finding a way to let them shine on the field. But then those programs are finding it progressively harder to compete annually with the schools who have installed a system they recruit to with a handful of exceptional talents brought in to retool the offense around as needed.

Mack Brown is the former kind of coach and its why his players are so seldom good NFL talent. He never develops them. Urban Meyer though is not in that category. He destroyed people at Utah with Alex Smith running the same spread offense he has in Florida. Once the overall offense is staffed with role players he takes the exceptional talents and finds a way to let them display their natural abilities within the system.

That is what all coaches need to do in all reality. You can't be a 100% player ability coach and you can't be a 100% system coach. You need to install the system, let all the role players get comfortable and find a role, then you take the few outstanding talents and make the tweaks to the system that let them really shine.

CEH
10-30-2010, 11:03 AM
I don't know why so many people assume that the power structure at Dove Valley is the same now as it was under Mike Shanahan. There is zero evidence to base that belief on. All word out of Dove Valley is that Josh and Xanders collaborate and Ellis and Bowlen have the final say.

One very visible example of that is Josh wanted Cutler to report for work as Jay said he would, it was Bowlen that pulled the trigger on the trade. That much we know.

I think you can answer your own question if you can answer this real world scenerio

Two ppl with equal power cannot agree . One wants to aquire player X the other doesn't. What happens? Is player X aquired? Does someone else come in to break the tie?

I highly doubt Bowlen or Ellis will intercede and break a tie when it comes to player evalulation. One is an old guy and the other is a business CIO

So do we aquire the player or not?

Popps
10-30-2010, 11:12 AM
Again, to me... you have to ask the question, what would a fully healthy squad look like this year? (Meaning our best pass rusher, our best O-linemen, our other best OLB, etc.)

I personally think this is at least a .500 squad, in tact.

Now, that's not to say that **** doesn't happen. It does. But, you can only make estimations on what the coaches did to put the pieces in place. Clearly, we're missing some depth on the OL and we could probably have used an ILB.

But, to say they "screwed this up," would have to imply that if the product they put together was all on the field, it would be a failure. I don't believe that to be the case.
We're 18 months into a rebuild and playing without many key elements.

Beyond that, to imply that we "screwed something up" must have meant that what we had prior to this was of a higher value. Clearly, that's not the case. The new staff is just under .500 since taking over, and that's about where we were. We're better in some areas, worse in others.

See, what this is going to take is time and patience to know what we really have. No one on a football message board (or very few) are going to be able to understand that. People want to anoint us playoff contenders after ever win, and failures after every loss.

The real truth is, we'll be able to take a real look some time mid-NEXT season and know how the rebuild is really going. If it's a real struggle at that point, we'll have to make some serious choices.

This is just a bunch of people acting with their emotions, the same way those same people reacted when we traded Jay Cutler. The same bunch was insisting that we lost our "franchise QB." (****ing hilarious... "franchise.") Many of us tried to tell those same people that they were overreacting and needed to give it time. Well, time has passed... and it turns out we raped Chicago in that trade.

So, step back... try to enjoy the games and let's amass a large enough sample of games and get some of our key players healthy before we try to make definitive decisions. We've seen some good, and some bad this year... and there is a lot of season left.

baja
10-30-2010, 11:14 AM
I think you can answer your own question if you can answer this real world scenerio

Two ppl with equal power cannot agree . One wants to acquire player X the other doesn't. What happens? Is player X aquired? Does someone else come in to break the tie?

I highly doubt Bowlen or Ellis will intercede and break a tie when it comes to player evalulation. One is an old guy and the other is a business CIO

So do we aquire the player or not?

Well I wasn't talking solely about player acquisitions but concerning that what I remember reading is McD and Xanders share strategies and usually come to a collective agreement but if they do not agree than Xanders has the final say. I believe Josh mostly coaches and Xanders mostly manages the FO. with discussions on common interest issues. But my initial point remains. Why do we think we have a clue as to what the power structure is in Dove Valley? Your explanation does not clear that up CEH.

CEH
10-30-2010, 11:36 AM
Well I wasn't talking solely about player acquisitions but concerning that what I remember reading is McD and Xanders share strategies and usually come to a collective agreement but if they do not agree than Xanders has the final say. I believe Josh mostly coaches and Xanders mostly manages the FO. with discussions on common interest issues. But my initial point remains. Why do we think we have a clue as to what the power structure is in Dove Valley? Your explanation does not clear that up CEH.

No one is inside Dove Valley. I've tried to provide some breadcrumbs as to why I believe Josh is in charge and while it's not the old Shanny with no GM it is still the coach buying the grocericies vs the GM structure say in KC

Listen to Alfred Williams and Mark Schrelth discuss the issue on their radio show last Monday. They are not in the lockerroom but a hell of alot closer then me and you and they believe that it's a organizational structure issue as well

I don't listen to all the talking heads but these two guys have played the game and still call Denver home and have more of an interest in the team than most

baja
10-30-2010, 11:39 AM
No one is inside Dove Valley. I've tried to provide some breadcrumbs as to why I believe Josh is in charge and while it's not the old Shanny with no GM it is still the coach buying the grocericies vs the GM structure say in KC

Listen to Alfred Williams and Mark Schrelth discuss the issue on their radio show last Monday. They are not in the lockerroom but a hell of alot closer then me and you and they believe that it's a organizational structure issue as well

I don't listen to all the talking heads but these two guys have played the game and still call Denver home and have more of an interest in the team than most

Fair point.

I don't have access to their show so I don't have the advantage of that information but as you say it's still speculation.


Wonder why it's so hard to find out how the power structure works, maybe that in it self is part of the problem. Maybe it's not clearly spelled out within the organization. Remember what Pat said he was going to be more hands on and now we have reports filtering in that he may have early signs of dementia.

Could be there is no clear chain of command and the most persistent personality wins

CEH
10-30-2010, 11:50 AM
Fair point.

I don't have access to their show so I don't have the advantage of that information.

Maybe they have a podcast (1043thefan.com) but the Mondays following the game they are live at a local restraunt. Very fun to listen to and informative if you get the chance

4-7 MST

baja
10-30-2010, 11:53 AM
Maybe they have a podcast (1043thefan.com) but the Mondays following the game they are live at a local restraunt. Very fun to listen to and informative if you get the chance

4-7 MST

Thanks I'll look in to it. ;D

rbackfactory80
10-30-2010, 11:56 AM
Fair point.

I don't have access to their show so I don't have the advantage of that information but as you say it's still speculation.


Wonder why it's so hard to find out how the power structure works, maybe that in it self is part of the problem. Maybe it's not clearly spelled out within the organization. Remember what Pat said he was going to be more hands on and now we have reports filtering in that he may have early signs of dementia.

Could be there is no clear chain of command and the most persistent personality wins

If you need to find out what an owner with dementia can do to a franchise look no further than Oakland.

WolfpackGuy
10-30-2010, 12:01 PM
What's not clear is why Bowlen waited a month to force out the Goodmans after firing Shanahan, and what had Xanders shown to make the jump to GM.

In the beginning, "The Coach" himself said that Jim Goodman would make the final calls on players.

baja
10-30-2010, 12:37 PM
What's not clear is why Bowlen waited a month to force out the Goodmans after firing Shanahan, and what had Xanders shown to make the jump to GM.

In the beginning, "The Coach" himself said that Jim Goodman would make the final calls on players.

Considering Buff's report that he heard statements from a Dove Valley tour guide (no less) that Bowlen was having memory issues. Just the fact she was allowed to say such a thing raises a concern that the ship is not run as tightly as it should be. Any organization that allows that loose canon to go unresolved has administration issues.

Factor in Bowlen is not in London when it's a no brainer he should be and would want to be (It's his baby, he lobbied for this game). This is a big red flag IMO

Keeping in mind the above points there are additional questions about how the extension of Champ was handled. Putting an offer on the table only to yank it later shows indecision and maybe incompetence within the FO. One scenario would be Pat signing off on the offer only to change his mind later in a more lucid (or less lucid) moment. At any rate it was a very bush league thing to do and very un Broncos like with no possible good to come from it. Color me concerned.

TheReverend
10-30-2010, 12:51 PM
What's not clear is why Bowlen waited a month to force out the Goodmans after firing Shanahan, and what had Xanders shown to make the jump to GM.

In the beginning, "The Coach" himself said that Jim Goodman would make the final calls on players.

Actually that line came straight from the owner. "The coach" just praised his work in his presser.

WolfpackGuy
10-30-2010, 12:55 PM
Keeping in mind the above points there are additional questions about how the extension of Champ was handled. Putting an offer on the table only to yank it later shows indecision and maybe incompetence within the FO. One scenario would be Pat signing off on the offer only to change his mind later in a more lucid (or less lucid) moment. At any rate it was a very bush league thing to do and very un Broncos like with no possible good to come from it. Color me concerned.

That sort of got swept under the rug.

Did the details other than the 4 year length ever come out on the contract?

I agree with extending Bailey unless it's for Asomugha/Revis (over $12 million/year) type money.

WolfpackGuy
10-30-2010, 01:03 PM
Actually that line came straight from the owner. "The coach" just praised his work in his presser.

Okay, they both said it at one time or another.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_11693597

Either way, it was a screwed up situation.

baja
10-30-2010, 01:03 PM
That sort of got swept under the rug.

Did the details other than the 4 year length ever come out on the contract?

I agree with extending Bailey unless it's for Asomugha/Revis (over $12 million/year) type money.

It's not the extension it's the fact it was offered and taken back.

WolfpackGuy
10-30-2010, 01:06 PM
It's not the extension it's the fact it was offered and taken back.

Agreed, that will definitely be a factor when/if the negotations open back up.

SoCalBronco
10-30-2010, 01:06 PM
Factor in Bowlen is not in London when it's a no brainer he should be and would want to be (It's his baby, he lobbied for this game). This is a big red flag IMO



Wow...I didn't even know that. If true, you are correct, that would be a HUGE red flag. Where did you see this, baja?

Broncoman13
10-30-2010, 01:09 PM
Again, to me... you have to ask the question, what would a fully healthy squad look like this year? (Meaning our best pass rusher, our best O-linemen, our other best OLB, etc.)

I personally think this is at least a .500 squad, in tact.

Now, that's not to say that **** doesn't happen. It does. But, you can only make estimations on what the coaches did to put the pieces in place. Clearly, we're missing some depth on the OL and we could probably have used an ILB.

But, to say they "screwed this up," would have to imply that if the product they put together was all on the field, it would be a failure. I don't believe that to be the case.
We're 18 months into a rebuild and playing without many key elements.

Beyond that, to imply that we "screwed something up" must have meant that what we had prior to this was of a higher value. Clearly, that's not the case. The new staff is just under .500 since taking over, and that's about where we were. We're better in some areas, worse in others.

See, what this is going to take is time and patience to know what we really have. No one on a football message board (or very few) are going to be able to understand that. People want to anoint us playoff contenders after ever win, and failures after every loss.

The real truth is, we'll be able to take a real look some time mid-NEXT season and know how the rebuild is really going. If it's a real struggle at that point, we'll have to make some serious choices.

This is just a bunch of people acting with their emotions, the same way those same people reacted when we traded Jay Cutler. The same bunch was insisting that we lost our "franchise QB." (****ing hilarious... "franchise.") Many of us tried to tell those same people that they were overreacting and needed to give it time. Well, time has passed... and it turns out we raped Chicago in that trade.

So, step back... try to enjoy the games and let's amass a large enough sample of games and get some of our key players healthy before we try to make definitive decisions. We've seen some good, and some bad this year... and there is a lot of season left.

* At least a .500 team with a healthy squad... Well then, I guess we should just get used to settling for mediocrity!

baja
10-30-2010, 01:21 PM
Wow...I didn't even know that. If true, you are correct, that would be a HUGE red flag. Where did you see this, baja?

I read it here I think but I just looked for it and can't find. I thought it was in here but it's not;

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=94744

baja
10-30-2010, 01:24 PM
Agreed, that will definitely be a factor when/if the negotations open back up.

I hope it's that you didn't read my post that prompted this response.

Popps
10-30-2010, 01:29 PM
* At least a .500 team with a healthy squad... Well then, I guess we should just get used to settling for mediocrity!

Who said that?

It's called reality. I don't think many here were looking for much more THIS season.

No one said anything about "settling."

Read better.

SoCalBronco
10-30-2010, 01:34 PM
I read it here I think but I just looked for it and can't find. I thought it was in here but it's not;

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=94744

I believe you....its just a stunning thing, though. IMO, this signals real trouble. Josh will not survive to his third year unless they can string together several wins. If the owner won't even go to London, its a real bad sign and that's kind of tragic because I was looking forward to seeing what Tebow would look like in this offense with the good QB coaching we have. We've got to get some wins real fast or we'll be starting all over again.

baja
10-30-2010, 01:37 PM
I believe you....its just a stunning thing, though. IMO, this signals real trouble. Josh will not survive to his third year unless they can string together several wins. If the owner won't even go to London, its a real bad sign and that's kind of tragic because I was looking forward to seeing what Tebow would look like in this offense with the good QB coaching we have. We've got to get some wins real fast or we'll be starting all over again.

No I know you would believe me So Cal. What I want to say is the information is not iron clad. It was a reporter that said he tried to get an interview with Bowlen and thought he didn't make the trip.

baja
10-30-2010, 01:40 PM
I believe you....its just a stunning thing, though. IMO, this signals real trouble. Josh will not survive to his third year unless they can string together several wins. If the owner won't even go to London, its a real bad sign and that's kind of tragic because I was looking forward to seeing what Tebow would look like in this offense with the good QB coaching we have. We've got to get some wins real fast or we'll be starting all over again.

I don't take it that way. I think the only reason Bowlen would not make the trip is because he is ill or hiding the fact he has become mentally challenged and want's to keep it under raps.

SouthStndJunkie
10-30-2010, 01:45 PM
Wow...I didn't even know that. If true, you are correct, that would be a HUGE red flag. Where did you see this, baja?

http://www.denverpost.com/paige/ci_16473580

In the crowd was Dan Rooney, chairman emeritus of the Pittsburgh Steelers and the ambassador of Ireland. Rooney said he would be cheering for the Broncos on Sunday. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell and Broncos COO Joe Ellis also joined the evening's festivities, but not owner Pat Bowlen, who, it is suspected, is not on the trip.

Neither Goodell nor Ellis wanted to address my question about what's wrong with the Broncos. Nor did coach Josh McDaniels, who I taught earlier in the day how to swing a cricket bat before the Broncos' practice at the legendary Oval Cricket Ground.

SoCalBronco
10-30-2010, 01:46 PM
Thanks for the link, SSJ.

Yeah...that doesn't sound good at all.

SouthStndJunkie
10-30-2010, 01:52 PM
Thanks for the link, SSJ.

Yeah...that doesn't sound good at all.

Not a problem....I would love to be wrong about this, but I think it's probably true.

Owners eat things like this London game up....it's their motive to promote their product at these games....even Dan Rooney is over there.

I don't have faith in Joe Ellis to be the one to lead this franchise into the future.

On a personal level, it sucks for the Bowlen family. I've seen how rough dementia or Alzheimer's is on families first hand....and it sucks.

Hulamau
10-30-2010, 01:55 PM
There are two big problems this year that have led to the disappointing first half of the season.

1. An all new (almost) offensive line .... Rookies and journeymen revolving around three vets who were drafted and groomed for the zone blocking system for which they are best suited. In essence, the entire line is basically 'new' to each other and this years 'power' blocking system and with all new line coaches of questionable talent to boot.

While Clady is a standout in any system, he's better overall in the zone, though that may well be in part due to him still adapting to the new skills needed anow and recovery from his knee? So Clady gets a pass ... Kuper and Harris just arent quite the same in this scheme and the two rookies have played like lost rookies at times as have the revolving Daniels and Hochstein... That is a lot of guys not fully on the same page or simply not well suited for their roles and it shows big time in the run game which has made us a one dimensional team.

One dimensional teams always get exposed at some point and frankly the last 4 brutally physical games prior to the Raider anomoly were a perfect prescription for wearing down and breaking down the line play on both offense and defense as we have witnessed. As a result, when we have a tough time moving the ball with so many 3 and outs, the already depeleted defense gets fagged out by the second quarter with far fewer healthy bodies to substitute and it makes any attempt at a rally from an early big deficit impossible to even consider pulling off.

2. Far too many key defensive injuries .... Josh deserves credit for the slight of hand and creative game plan he developed to basically beat the Jets save for one last heartbreaking ref flag to end the game, inspite of missing both starting OLB/Pass rushers, two of the top three corners as well as 2 the top three safeties that forced him to raid the PS to field a full team.

But there is only so much blood you can squeeze from an already squeezed turnip, and with the way the Raider game started out at 21-0 within the first 6 minutes, the wheels finally came off and the rout was on. We couldnt move the ball aat all and seeing that this defense was both psychologically and physcially spent and out of the game well before half time.

No pass rush coupled with rookies or journeymen corners at two of the corner spots and at one safety spot is a prescription for some rough sledding and missing our two starting OLB's to set the edge against the run, plus not being able run at all ourselves, then we get exactly what we've got so far.

Its not rocket science here to figure out the score. The injuries on D have been some crappy bad luck that started in early training camp preventing a lot of these guys to really gel then. Injuires witll heal given time, but the real fixable problems are on the Oline. I do think these Olineman we have can play far better with more time together and better line coaching but in the first half of the year their play has led to the bulk of our problems and put far too much pressure on an injured defense.

Hopefully, we can somehow pull out a win tomorrow and regroup and heal up some in the bye, but I would have liked to have seen Dawk, Goode, Royal and Moreno all get an extra coupel of weeks to heal but all those guys have to man up now. We also need Vickerson back in a big way on the Dline as he has been a big part of helping to conrol the other teams run game and when he went down LT took off for the Jets and Oakland ran over us as well, often over shere his spot is on the D line at left DE.

Bottomline a tough year to live through, some of this is on Josh (though less than some of you here would have it), some in the nature of rebuilding to a new concept and system, some on crappy luck and a lot squarely on the players head. In any event, its way too early to be calling for Josh's head but we do need to make a better showing in the second half than the first half. Josh will be judged most on how things go in year three, and rightly so.

Drek
10-30-2010, 04:50 PM
I believe you....its just a stunning thing, though. IMO, this signals real trouble. Josh will not survive to his third year unless they can string together several wins. If the owner won't even go to London, its a real bad sign and that's kind of tragic because I was looking forward to seeing what Tebow would look like in this offense with the good QB coaching we have. We've got to get some wins real fast or we'll be starting all over again.

If Bowlen didn't come for the game in London it isn't a signal that he just doesn't want to watch Josh coach. Its a sign that he for some reason isn't willing to step out into the spotlight right now.

For all we know there was something personal that came up. But he's an active player in how the league markets itself and this is one of the ventures he's trumpeted. For him to not be in attendance when his team is going overseas is not a good sign for him as the long term owner.

I'm really hoping that we get Elway involved in some official capacity this off-season. The Broncos need a stable face to the organization like that.

CEH
10-30-2010, 05:59 PM
If Bowlen didn't come for the game in London it isn't a signal that he just doesn't want to watch Josh coach. Its a sign that he for some reason isn't willing to step out into the spotlight right now.

For all we know there was something personal that came up. But he's an active player in how the league markets itself and this is one of the ventures he's trumpeted. For him to not be in attendance when his team is going overseas is not a good sign for him as the long term owner.

I'm really hoping that we get Elway involved in some official capacity this off-season. The Broncos need a stable face to the organization like that.

Elway is over there so that's a good sign. I think he will become more involved. FWIW I think he really likes Josh

Merlin
10-30-2010, 06:44 PM
Beyond that, to imply that we "screwed something up" must have meant that what we had prior to this was of a higher value. Clearly, that's not the case. The new staff is just under .500 since taking over, and that's about where we were. We're better in some areas, worse in others.
Stop bathing in the guys nuts for gods sakes. There is not a single area the team is better than before. In fact, where the team was atrocious has not improved (and has cost us boatload of picks), and the best players are from the previous regime. The offense has regressed into pure junk. You may complain all you want about Cutler, but his market value when traded was extremely high, and Orton would get you very little in a trade. As to the rape, we have nothing to show from that trade. We went from the youngest offense, top two in yds, top 12 in scoring (when measuring only the offence), and top 10 when considering field position, yet we are useless now. We had the best OL in the league, a rushing game that depended on later round players and would put up 1000 yd rushers like nothing, and now our OL stinks, and our 1st round running backs are outplayed by the RBs we traded and cut. As to the ZB scheme being outdated, many of the strongest rushing team in the NFL right now either use a ZB scheme or a hybrid version of it.

This has been a total fiasco, and the fact that you still defend it betrays your total blindness towards this FO. 4-13! I don't care what injuries he has. In Shanny's last yr, with a QB you consider worthless, and a bunch of young players and a putrid defense you love to point out was made of useless players missed the playoffs by 1 game, and was 8-8. This yr SD stinks, and McD still manages to make matters worse. 4-13! There is no way to excuse that pathetic record! Cutler had a better record than that last yr with a lousy D, lousy RB, lousy OL, lousy OC, and lousy performance from him. You correctly criticize Cutler's poor performances, but they are miles ahead of McD's putrid product!

Cito Pelon
10-31-2010, 01:22 AM
I have to wait and see how the season plays out before making the kind of judgements people have come out with in this thread.

hambone13
10-31-2010, 01:26 AM
Stop bathing in the guys nuts for gods sakes. There is not a single area the team is better than before. In fact, where the team was atrocious has not improved (and has cost us boatload of picks), and the best players are from the previous regime. The offense has regressed into pure junk. You may complain all you want about Cutler, but his market value when traded was extremely high, and Orton would get you very little in a trade. As to the rape, we have nothing to show from that trade. We went from the youngest offense, top two in yds, top 12 in scoring (when measuring only the offence), and top 10 when considering field position, yet we are useless now. We had the best OL in the league, a rushing game that depended on later round players and would put up 1000 yd rushers like nothing, and now our OL stinks, and our 1st round running backs are outplayed by the RBs we traded and cut. As to the ZB scheme being outdated, many of the strongest rushing team in the NFL right now either use a ZB scheme or a hybrid version of it.

This has been a total fiasco, and the fact that you still defend it betrays your total blindness towards this FO. 4-13! I don't care what injuries he has. In Shanny's last yr, with a QB you consider worthless, and a bunch of young players and a putrid defense you love to point out was made of useless players missed the playoffs by 1 game, and was 8-8. This yr SD stinks, and McD still manages to make matters worse. 4-13! There is no way to excuse that pathetic record! Cutler had a better record than that last yr with a lousy D, lousy RB, lousy OL, lousy OC, and lousy performance from him. You correctly criticize Cutler's poor performances, but they are miles ahead of McD's putrid product!


Despite all the positive vibes from those "Oooooooomm-ing" fundamentalist, which truly dominate this board, I can't help but think of 4-13. We have all this speculation as to the real nature of the problem and solution but seriously, the Denver Broncos = 4/13? I have a really hard time swallowing that. It's about as drastic as it's been for this team in decades. We need the next "Orange-Crush-esque" change to pump this spectacular franchise back to where it belongs. IMO, we look like the subpar market that professional athletes would never care to consider if they had a choice. We've fallen off of the map. We get equally as much bad press as we do when we're above average. Now that we're bad, it's much worse.

No matter the details of what McD has, might or will do in the future, it's going to require a collective pro-football miracle to make this franchise look solid enough to return to "non-mainstream" elite status, with the players in the league for some time. We have made some of the most questionable player moves in NFL history, imo. Most recently, we have pushed out to the public, a severe mishandling of a classy, elite player like Champ Bailey. If you need the proof of his dismay, please see this:

http://www.1043thefan.com/channels/audioOnDemand/Story.aspx?ID=1293711

It's called, "Champ Bailey on the Drive". It's located in the archive section of "On-Demand". Here is the link to what I hope will take you there. Other wise take the logical URL path of (www.1043thefan.com) click on (On Demand) in the menu and go to what I suggested earlier. Once you arrive at the page, you will have to press "Play", usually represented by an equilateral triangle (Button/embedded URL) placed facing east, seemingly pointing North and South and the same time. You will then need to have your sound on and be capable of listening to a reasonably long interview but one that is interesting enough because it's Champ Bailey.

I feel it's pretty obvious that he's not happy but classy. A guy like Champ doesn't come out and spill any beans unless it's what it is: Unorthodox and flat out unprofessional.

There are a lot of posters here who have tried to stick together on the fact that McD is a significant part of the problem with this team. Has he done positive things, of course. He wouldn't have gotten a shot at the job if he wasn't qualified to do that.

I like a lot of things that he's brought in his bag of tricks but he's not ready and 4-13 says it all. We can analyze the **** out of all the details as to how he has been better or worse than Shanny but....seriously. Round 3 of McD needs to evolve and rapidly or he's a goner and Bowlen will do what he always does...act like an owner.

How crazy he might be is obviously out of the question because we "don't have any facts" but hinging on the likelihood that nothing is wrong, just like we have with conditioning, which is also a significant failure; How long does it take the owner to fire the training staff? How does that not start with the team doctor and head coach? Do an RFP. I can assure you someone more competent can step up. Injury is now significant through both regimes and worse with McD's increased intensity of practice style. How does a risk factor like this go unnoticed? The bookies live on it.

Something needs to happen with the FO immediately or we're rebuilding for even longer.

Weak rant over.....tear me to pieces....

HAT
10-31-2010, 01:43 AM
In fact, where the team was atrocious has not improved (and has cost us boatload of picks), and the best players are from the previous regime. The offense has regressed into pure junk. You may complain all you want about Cutler, but his market value when traded was extremely high, and Orton would get you very little in a trade.

lolwut?

footstepsfrom#27
10-31-2010, 01:46 PM
Despite all the positive vibes from those "Oooooooomm-ing" fundamentalist, which truly dominate this board, I can't help but think of 4-13. We have all this speculation as to the real nature of the problem and solution but seriously, the Denver Broncos = 4/13? I have a really hard time swallowing that. It's about as drastic as it's been for this team in decades.
I continue to hear this 4-13 record (it's not his complete record obviously) bandied about but it would be well to possibly remember that the pre-dynastic Jimmy Johnson Cowboys in '89-'90 went 4-22 to start off what became arguably the most dominant franchise in NFL history during the '90's. McDaniels won his first 6 but even the ensuing slide would have to see Denver go 0-9 now to match Johnson's initial ineptitude. That fact alone says nothing about Johnson vs. McDaniels obviously but only because we have the benefit of 20-20 hindsight that TRUST ME, most people here in Dallas in 1990 did not have either. I'm not comparing McDaniels to Johnson, except on one point, they are alike in that both are brash as hell and irritating to anyone who doesn't pick up or buy into their ideas from the start. In fact, this many years later there are still Cowboy fans here who don't like Johnson because he replaced Landry...sound familiar? I agree with you BTW on the injury situation, and in fact if for no other reason we ought to tap the break on assuming to much from a 4-13 slide here. I think we know a lot more next year than we do right now, and obviously they have a lot of work to do.

DivineBronco
10-31-2010, 01:48 PM
whatever ends up going on with this coach we have learned some very interesting things on this board the past two year.......and those of you who openly rooted against this team will not be forgotten and will hopefully continue to be called out week after week until you leave for good....you are rotten rotten fans

Merlin
10-31-2010, 04:01 PM
whatever ends up going on with this coach we have learned some very interesting things on this board the past two year.......and those of you who openly rooted against this team will not be forgotten and will hopefully continue to be called out week after week until you leave for good....you are rotten rotten fans
How about the morons who like the status quo, should we elevate them to super fan status?

Rascal
10-31-2010, 04:04 PM
whatever ends up going on with this coach we have learned some very interesting things on this board the past two year.......and those of you who openly rooted against this team will not be forgotten and will hopefully continue to be called out week after week until you leave for good....you are rotten rotten fans

Who is openly rooting for the other team?

oubronco
10-31-2010, 04:07 PM
Stop bathing in the guys nuts for gods sakes. There is not a single area the team is better than before. In fact, where the team was atrocious has not improved (and has cost us boatload of picks), and the best players are from the previous regime. The offense has regressed into pure junk. You may complain all you want about Cutler, but his market value when traded was extremely high, and Orton would get you very little in a trade. As to the rape, we have nothing to show from that trade. We went from the youngest offense, top two in yds, top 12 in scoring (when measuring only the offence), and top 10 when considering field position, yet we are useless now. We had the best OL in the league, a rushing game that depended on later round players and would put up 1000 yd rushers like nothing, and now our OL stinks, and our 1st round running backs are outplayed by the RBs we traded and cut. As to the ZB scheme being outdated, many of the strongest rushing team in the NFL right now either use a ZB scheme or a hybrid version of it.

This has been a total fiasco, and the fact that you still defend it betrays your total blindness towards this FO. 4-13! I don't care what injuries he has. In Shanny's last yr, with a QB you consider worthless, and a bunch of young players and a putrid defense you love to point out was made of useless players missed the playoffs by 1 game, and was 8-8. This yr SD stinks, and McD still manages to make matters worse. 4-13! There is no way to excuse that pathetic record! Cutler had a better record than that last yr with a lousy D, lousy RB, lousy OL, lousy OC, and lousy performance from him. You correctly criticize Cutler's poor performances, but they are miles ahead of McD's putrid product!

Good post

oubronco
10-31-2010, 04:09 PM
I continue to hear this 4-13 record (it's not his complete record obviously) bandied about but it would be well to possibly remember that the pre-dynastic Jimmy Johnson Cowboys in '89-'90 went 4-22 to start off what became arguably the most dominant franchise in NFL history during the '90's. McDaniels won his first 6 but even the ensuing slide would have to see Denver go 0-9 now to match Johnson's initial ineptitude. That fact alone says nothing about Johnson vs. McDaniels obviously but only because we have the benefit of 20-20 hindsight that TRUST ME, most people here in Dallas in 1990 did not have either. I'm not comparing McDaniels to Johnson, except on one point, they are alike in that both are brash as hell and irritating to anyone who doesn't pick up or buy into their ideas from the start. In fact, this many years later there are still Cowboy fans here who don't like Johnson because he replaced Landry...sound familiar? I agree with you BTW on the injury situation, and in fact if for no other reason we ought to tap the break on assuming to much from a 4-13 slide here. I think we know a lot more next year than we do right now, and obviously they have a lot of work to do.

Another good post the exception is we don't have a player to trade for a shytload of high picks. But we did have a bunch in the last 2 drafts and well

WolfpackGuy
10-31-2010, 04:10 PM
I continue to hear this 4-13 record (it's not his complete record obviously) bandied about but it would be well to possibly remember that the pre-dynastic Jimmy Johnson Cowboys in '89-'90 went 4-22 to start off what became arguably the most dominant franchise in NFL history during the '90's. McDaniels won his first 6 but even the ensuing slide would have to see Denver go 0-9 now to match Johnson's initial ineptitude. That fact alone says nothing about Johnson vs. McDaniels obviously but only because we have the benefit of 20-20 hindsight that TRUST ME, most people here in Dallas in 1990 did not have either. I'm not comparing McDaniels to Johnson, except on one point, they are alike in that both are brash as hell and irritating to anyone who doesn't pick up or buy into their ideas from the start. In fact, this many years later there are still Cowboy fans here who don't like Johnson because he replaced Landry...sound familiar? I agree with you BTW on the injury situation, and in fact if for no other reason we ought to tap the break on assuming to much from a 4-13 slide here. I think we know a lot more next year than we do right now, and obviously they have a lot of work to do.

Totally different situation as Dallas was an OLD 3-13 team in Landry's last year...

True, Johnson went 1-15 (from 3-13, big deal) his first year in 1989, but they were in the playoff race late in 1990.

hambone13
10-31-2010, 10:51 PM
I continue to hear this 4-13 record (it's not his complete record obviously) bandied about but it would be well to possibly remember that the pre-dynastic Jimmy Johnson Cowboys in '89-'90 went 4-22 to start off what became arguably the most dominant franchise in NFL history during the '90's. McDaniels won his first 6 but even the ensuing slide would have to see Denver go 0-9 now to match Johnson's initial ineptitude. That fact alone says nothing about Johnson vs. McDaniels obviously but only because we have the benefit of 20-20 hindsight that TRUST ME, most people here in Dallas in 1990 did not have either. I'm not comparing McDaniels to Johnson, except on one point, they are alike in that both are brash as hell and irritating to anyone who doesn't pick up or buy into their ideas from the start. In fact, this many years later there are still Cowboy fans here who don't like Johnson because he replaced Landry...sound familiar? I agree with you BTW on the injury situation, and in fact if for no other reason we ought to tap the break on assuming to much from a 4-13 slide here. I think we know a lot more next year than we do right now, and obviously they have a lot of work to do.

I always appreciate your input on anyone's posts. I suppose there is a purple squirrel out there for any situation that makes you go, "hmmm". The fact still remains it is non-broncoesque. I've done everything I can to like McD. I'm a Marine and I know how significant a dominant personality is to to any group of men that view themselves as warriors. I would love to keep him but see him bring in a real GM and give him the reins. He seems to focus too much on character rather than talent. It's a bouncy scale as to measuring where you actually create winning balance but talent doesn't seem to be weighted high enough in his model. I think it would benefit him greatly to focus on developing what he's got which essentially what he did and was given in NE. Personnel is the piece that the Hoodie never gave him and will never reveal until he's ready to retire from the game. He runs his organization like an intelligence agency for good reason.

We have a chance to still be in the hunt statistically this year. It will be interesting to see what happens after the bye. If they don't come back with a win, no matter who the team is, there are some serious heart issues to discuss from the coach down. For the team to be thinking along the lines of what Dawkins said, "maybe we need to not think about football for a while", is ludicrous and it's painful to hear it from him.

If they wanted to win bad enough, if their season depends on it, if their pride depends on it, they need to focus for two weeks on their opponent. You take a reasonable amount of time off, physically to heal but you still come together in meetings and required film time, coach time, etc. and you win that b****. It's your freak'n job. I don't get to take a week off if I had a bad fiscal quarter.

footstepsfrom#27
11-01-2010, 12:04 AM
Totally different situation as Dallas was an OLD 3-13 team in Landry's last year...
Yes and no. My point has nothing to do with the quality of team inherited by either coach, but rather that both used a philosophy that involved stripping down and starting over. Whether you're unloading old guys or young the point remains that rebuilding like that takes two things, time and adding new talent. When I look at McDaniel's draft this year, I see some similarities in terms of strategy with Johnson, though we have no Herschel Walker to unload on a sucker like Mike Lynn. What's most frustrating about this is not knowing what some of these guys really are due to this rash of injuries. In any case, after a year of pointing out McDaniel's mistakes, I think we'd be better served if we look a bit closer and ask whether patience is still a virtue here...I think it might be. Jimmy it should be noted, spent the top pick in the draft on a supplemental pick for QB Steve Walsh when he ALREADY had Aikman. In retrospect now...doesn't that seem insanely stupid? Johnson made plenty of mistakes, but he kept the revolving personnel door moving so fast that he made up for it with sheer quantity of moves, catching enough lightning in a bottle to build something special. It's possible we could...I emphasize "could" have something similar here, but it's not coming this year, that's obvious.