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View Full Version : ESPN Rumor Central about McD???


coachmastermind
10-27-2010, 09:44 AM
I know these are usually fluff pieces, but got this tweet from Rumor Central, anyone have it that can fill us in? With Schefter being in the mix it may carry some wieght.



Josh McDaniels on thin ice, and @adam_schefter tells us the type of coach Pat Bowlen may replace him with http://es.pn/bvTx5s #nfl #broncos

Rabb
10-27-2010, 09:48 AM
The chapter describing the Josh McDaniels era in the Denver Broncos (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/den/denver-broncos)' history books may be a short one. After rattling off six wins to start the 2009 season, the Broncos have gone 4-13 since, including an embarrassing home loss against the Oakland Raiders (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/oak/oakland-raiders) in Week 7.
On Wednesday, ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter offered his take on what could happen with this volatile situation:


"There still is a lot of season left, particularly in a wide open division. Now, what Denver showed on Sunday was not promising in any way. And if that continues, then [owner Pat] Bowlen will have to go over candidates. Owners have had a habit of going away from what they had: Bowlen went from a proven head coach in Dan Reeves to an unproven head coach in Wade Phillips to a more proven head coach in Mike Shanahan to a less proven head coach in Josh McDaniels. If he makes a change, the guess would be he would go back to a more proven mind. But it's still way too early to tell."

tsiguy96
10-27-2010, 09:49 AM
so basically, they are saying that if teh team doesnt get better through the rest of the season, that bowlen will have to look at different head coaches...and they charge people to read that? wow

PRBronco
10-27-2010, 09:49 AM
Meh, just writing for the sake of writing.

Ambiguous
10-27-2010, 09:50 AM
Riveting.

In other news, I might bang Giselle tonight, but it's still too early to tell.

Chris
10-27-2010, 09:50 AM
I think it would be a big mistake. You can't evaluate a guy when most of his starting defense isn't on the field.

colonelbeef
10-27-2010, 09:51 AM
Shefter has better sources in Denver than anybody.

read between the lines people. This is coming from Bowlen, not Adam Shefter.

coachmastermind
10-27-2010, 09:53 AM
Fluff, like I thought. Thanks though.

Meck77
10-27-2010, 09:54 AM
Riveting.


Really. Everyone including the water boy should be on thin ice.

Rabb
10-27-2010, 09:55 AM
sure

yeah it's about what I expected

eddie mac
10-27-2010, 10:00 AM
Nothing to see here.

Ambiguous
10-27-2010, 10:01 AM
I think it would be a big mistake. You can't evaluate a guy when most of his starting defense isn't on the field.

His starting "defense" was on the field last year. *shrugs*

Most of the changes made this year ARE on the field.

broncofan2438
10-27-2010, 10:04 AM
Of course this was going to come out in some form after that mess on Sunday. Who knows if its bull**** or not. Not happy about the win-loss record for McDs either

Taco John
10-27-2010, 10:07 AM
At this moment, I see no reason to hold on to the guy. This is the fact: right now, we lose nothing by cutting him lose. We're literaly on square zero. We have no idea if this offensive line is going to pan out. We have no idea if our running game is going to pan out. We have no idea if our QBOTF is going to pan out. We have no idea if our defensive strategy is going to pan out. We have nothing but question marks all over the field. More than we've had in a decade.

Here's fact number two: Josh owes it to Bowlen to prove why he should be given the chance to stick around. It's not the other way around. Bowlen doesn't owe it to Josh to give him three years. Josh has to earn that and right now he is failing.

There isn't a team on our schedule that we can't beat through the rest of the year. There should be no reason that we can't finish the season with at least 6 wins.

It's a sad day in Broncos land when I'm looking at 6 wins as the optimistic high water mark. Screw you Josh and your lose to Tom freaking Cable ways.

bendog
10-27-2010, 10:19 AM
At this moment, I see no reason to hold on to the guy. This is the fact: right now, we lose nothing by cutting him lose. We're literaly on square zero. We have no idea if this offensive line is going to pan out. We have no idea if our running game is going to pan out. We have no idea if our QBOTF is going to pan out. We have no idea if our defensive strategy is going to pan out. We have nothing but question marks all over the field. More than we've had in a decade.

Here's fact number two: Josh owes it to Bowlen to prove why he should be given the chance to stick around. It's not the other way around. Bowlen doesn't owe it to Josh to give him three years. Josh has to earn that and right now he is failing.

There isn't a team on our schedule that we can't beat through the rest of the year. There should be no reason that we can't finish the season with at least 6 wins.

It's a sad day in Broncos land when I'm looking at 6 wins as the optimistic high water mark. Screw you Josh and your lose to Tom freaking Cable ways.

I liked his 2010 draft. Not trading the Earl Thomas pick to Sea for A. Smith in 09, but still..... McDaniels knew he wanted Tebow, and he knew he could get him for sure late in the first. He had a plan that logically took into account the strengths and weaknesses of the draft, and he executed the plan. It took shanny a freaking decade to get there.

However, he gutted one of the top offenses in the league, and Den now has like the 2nd oldest or something roster in the league, and it's filled with ... journeyman talent. He's done less than nothing to address the flat out awful defense that Shanny left. Let's hope Bowlen still has enough brain cells working to hire a real talent evaluator guy who can give him some real advice on whether young guys like Cassius Vaugh, McBath, McBean, Beadles, Thompson, etc are really going to be capable of playing in playoffs. If they aren't, Bowlen's gotta pull the trigger sooner or later and it is better to get it over with.

Garcia Bronco
10-27-2010, 10:23 AM
I think you guys need to realize that the soft lifestyle Denver has leads to soft football teams.

bloodsunday
10-27-2010, 10:24 AM
What about this link: http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/blog?name=schefter_adam&id=5732585&action=upsell&appRedirect=http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/blog%3fname%3dschefter_adam%26id%3d5732585

It might be the same fluff, but I'd be particularly interested in hearing how he answers the part about Pat Bowlen. I am really interested in 2 things: 1) His health and 2) His finances

Taco John
10-27-2010, 10:24 AM
I think you guys need to realize that the soft lifestyle Denver has leads to soft football teams.

We need to send those guys to pick rock at Meck's ranch. That'll harden them up.

Rohirrim
10-27-2010, 10:27 AM
I doubt that Bowlen feels any different about his team getting its ass kicked by the Raiders in our own house now, than he felt when Shanahan allowed it to happen. Some things are just not acceptable.

Rohirrim
10-27-2010, 10:28 AM
I think you guys need to realize that the soft lifestyle Denver has leads to soft football teams.

Back to Greeley, you mofos! :charge:

bloodsunday
10-27-2010, 10:30 AM
I doubt that Bowlen feels any different about his team getting its ass kicked by the Raiders in our own house now, than he felt when Shanahan allowed it to happen. Some things are just not acceptable.

Is it valid to wonder where Bowlen is at right now? Is he healthy? Is he still interested in owning this team? Is he managing (financially) to the possibility of a lockout?

bendog
10-27-2010, 10:34 AM
Bowlen will be just fine finance wise with a lockout.

http://www.nfllockout.com/2010/10/13/wall-street-journal-sheds-light-on-nfls-labor-strategy/

And he didn't give Lambchop or BM multimillion dollar bonuses to lock them up longterm.

bloodsunday
10-27-2010, 10:44 AM
Bowlen will be just fine finance wise with a lockout.

http://www.nfllockout.com/2010/10/13/wall-street-journal-sheds-light-on-nfls-labor-strategy/

And he didn't give Lambchop or BM multimillion dollar bonuses to lock them up longterm.

Right, I guess was my question is two fold:
1) Was his decision to fire Shanahan and cut expenses the last 2 years related to the possibility of a lockout (at least in part)? See these two articles referencing how finances have been a big part of the new strategy since firing Shanahan:
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16077150
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16440005

2) Bowlen is not one of these Billionaire owners with cash flow coming from other ventures. Is he having cash flow problems? It's one thing to manage your team to salary cap, but it's a completely different thing to manager to cash. They are separate accounting systems. For example, bonuses are paid up front (cash immediately out the door) but are pro-rated against the cap. This question is important because it will impact how this team is run before and after any lockout. For example, would he fire McDaniels with 2 years remaining on a contract (and all the staff)?

bronco militia
10-27-2010, 10:50 AM
At this moment, I see no reason to hold on to the guy. This is the fact: right now, we lose nothing by cutting him lose. We're literaly on square zero. We have no idea if this offensive line is going to pan out. We have no idea if our running game is going to pan out. We have no idea if our QBOTF is going to pan out. We have no idea if our defensive strategy is going to pan out. We have nothing but question marks all over the field. More than we've had in a decade.

Here's fact number two: Josh owes it to Bowlen to prove why he should be given the chance to stick around. It's not the other way around. Bowlen doesn't owe it to Josh to give him three years. Josh has to earn that and right now he is failing.

There isn't a team on our schedule that we can't beat through the rest of the year. There should be no reason that we can't finish the season with at least 6 wins.

It's a sad day in Broncos land when I'm looking at 6 wins as the optimistic high water mark. Screw you Josh and your lose to Tom freaking Cable ways.

I felt this way after last years loss to the Chorfs.

things haven't changed much since

go_broncos
10-27-2010, 10:53 AM
No one is afraid of our team.
Everyone is making fun of us..
On the radio yesterday, there are comments like 'It looked like Denver was playing against Giants on Monday'.
These type of jokes i used to hear about teams like Lions and Raiders.
Mcd doesn't know what he is doing..We can't even convert 3rd/4th and Short.
I want Bowlen to fire Mcd Now..

broncogary
10-27-2010, 11:01 AM
Hm, he's put together a pretty effective offense, in the face of a lot of injuries, and it looked like the D would be a lot better too, before Doom, Ayers, Dawkins got hurt.

Exactly who do you guys think would have the team winning through that?

bowtown
10-27-2010, 11:02 AM
No one is afraid of our team.
Everyone is making fun of us..
On the radio yesterday, there are comments like 'It looked like Denver was playing against Giants on Monday'.
These type of jokes i used to hear about teams like Lions and Raiders.
Mcd doesn't know what he is doing..We can't even convert 3rd/4th and Short.
I want Bowlen to fire Mcd Now..

Why do you care so much about what other teams or the media think about us? It's an obession for you.

go_broncos
10-27-2010, 11:05 AM
Hm, he's put together a pretty effective offense, in the face of a lot of injuries, and it looked like the D would be a lot better too, before Doom, Ayers, Dawkins got hurt.

Exactly who do you guys think would have the team winning through that?

Ayers and Dawkins played few games and still we lost.
What offensive injuries you are talking about???
Some teams are starting rookie/new QB's and they are showing more fight than us.
Every team has injuries..Don't give that **** excuse again.
Regarding doom, he played last year and we won only 2 games out of last 10.

Ambiguous
10-27-2010, 11:05 AM
Hm, he's put together a pretty effective offense, in the face of a lot of injuries, and it looked like the D would be a lot better too, before Doom, Ayers, Dawkins got hurt.

Exactly who do you guys think would have the team winning through that?

Memo to you: WE ARE DEAD LAST IN RUSHING YARDS/TD'S.

Kind of hard to call that "effective". I suppose the defense can get the benefit of the doubt.

bendog
10-27-2010, 11:07 AM
Right, I guess was my question is two fold:
1) Was his decision to fire Shanahan and cut expenses the last 2 years related to the possibility of a lockout (at least in part)? See these two articles referencing how finances have been a big part of the new strategy since firing Shanahan:
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16077150
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16440005

2) Bowlen is not one of these Billionaire owners with cash flow coming from other ventures. Is he having cash flow problems? It's one thing to manage your team to salary cap, but it's a completely different thing to manager to cash. They are separate accounting systems. For example, bonuses are paid up front (cash immediately out the door) but are pro-rated against the cap. This question is important because it will impact how this team is run before and after any lockout. For example, would he fire McDaniels with 2 years remaining on a contract (and all the staff)?

My opinion is yeah, firing shanny was related to cash flow. It was actually cheaper to fire the guy and stop backloading cap and brining in every conceivable player who might give the team a small advantage. Shanahan was never shy about saying he approached every year trying to win every single game no matter what the cost. But, I think Bowlen had good reason to conclude Shanny was not going to get a playoff defense done in Den.

If there's a lockout, players don't get their salaries, but the owners can't go after any signing bonuses that were tied to previous service. BM challanged McDaniels in the wake of the culter cluster****, and I think the cutler cluster**** was a combination of screwups on everyone's parts rather than a design to avoid giving the guy a Manningesque bonus, but I don't think Bowlen is unhappy about saving money on QB and WR. Both those guys have health risks, imo, so regardless of the workstoppage, I don't have a real problem with letting them go. Replacing them is an issue for me, but that's irrelevant to the thread.

IF there's a lock out, Bowlen shoudl be fine with cash flow. He's got less expenses than most teams because of the player contracts, and tv contracts still pay the league something like 4.5 billion. Bowlen has to cover his personal salary (his cook, pilot, driver) and the front office salaries (unless he fires people) and keep the lights on at Dove Valley. (picture the world's smallest violin) Bowlen acutally paid something less than 25million of his father's money to buy a team that Forbes valued at 750million.

Longerterm, IF you believe what the league says, there's no way they can keep paying players 60%plus of shared revenue. And, if he dies, his estate has to pay estate taxes on his 700million or so increase in the value of the franchise. If he sells, he has to pay tax on his gain. As far as I know, the Denver media has never attempted to look to see if he's banking cash money from the fans inorder to pay those taxes.

baja
10-27-2010, 11:07 AM
Why do you care so much about what other teams or the media think about us? It's an obession for you.

Lacking one of his own the Broncos are his identity.

They do good he walks around with his chest all puffed out like he's done something.

Broncos lose he's all sulky like frown clown.

bloodsunday
10-27-2010, 11:11 AM
My opinion is yeah, firing shanny was related to cash flow. It was actually cheaper to fire the guy and stop backloading cap and brining in every conceivable player who might give the team a small advantage. Shanahan was never shy about saying he approached every year trying to win every single game no matter what the cost. But, I think Bowlen had good reason to conclude Shanny was not going to get a playoff defense done in Den.

If there's a lockout, players don't get their salaries, but the owners can't go after any signing bonuses that were tied to previous service. BM challanged McDaniels in the wake of the culter cluster****, and I think the cutler cluster**** was a combination of screwups on everyone's parts rather than a design to avoid giving the guy a Manningesque bonus, but I don't think Bowlen is unhappy about saving money on QB and WR. Both those guys have health risks, imo, so regardless of the workstoppage, I don't have a real problem with letting them go. Replacing them is an issue for me, but that's irrelevant to the thread.

IF there's a lock out, Bowlen shoudl be fine with cash flow. He's got less expenses than most teams because of the player contracts, and tv contracts still pay the league something like 4.5 billion. Bowlen has to cover his personal salary (his cook, pilot, driver) and the front office salaries (unless he fires people) and keep the lights on at Dove Valley. (picture the world's smallest violin) Bowlen acutally paid something less than 25million of his father's money to buy a team that Forbes valued at 750million.

Longerterm, IF you believe what the league says, there's no way they can keep paying players 60%plus of shared revenue. And, if he dies, his estate has to pay estate taxes on his 700million or so increase in the value of the franchise. If he sells, he has to pay tax on his gain. As far as I know, the Denver media has never attempted to look to see if he's banking cash money from the fans inorder to pay those taxes.

Good stuff, but you really only addressed 1 part of this thread -- if there is a lockout.

But what about on-going operations (if there isn't a lockout or when it's over). I don't have an issue with B-Marsh or Cutler, but pulling an offer that you've already made to Champ Bailey off the table? That's a unique deal.

And, how does this impact any potential coaching or other front-office changes? Would he actually fire McDaniels and pay him 4M a year to be someone else's OC?

bendog
10-27-2010, 11:13 AM
Hm, he's put together a pretty effective offense, in the face of a lot of injuries, and it looked like the D would be a lot better too, before Doom, Ayers, Dawkins got hurt.

Exactly who do you guys think would have the team winning through that?

Where do people get this CRAP that McDaniels is somehow putting out "a pretty effective offense."

We're 10th.
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&offensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&conference=ALL&role=TM&season=2010&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=TOTAL_YARDS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1

We were 2nd in shanny's last year and scoring more than 4 pts a game more than this year
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&offensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&conference=ALL&role=TM&season=2010&seasonType=REG&d-447263-s=TOTAL_YARDS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-n=1

Even with that miserable year of runnign backs going down (and don't even mention the paternity test punk) and the woeful defense, Den ran for 116 yds per game.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=RUSHING&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2008&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go

This year is less than 69 yds per game.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=RUSHING&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2010&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go

THAT'S CALLED REGRESSING, NOT PUTTING OUT A CREDIBLE OFFENSE.

Popps
10-27-2010, 11:13 AM
Hm, he's put together a pretty effective offense, in the face of a lot of injuries, and it looked like the D would be a lot better too, before Doom, Ayers, Dawkins got hurt.

Exactly who do you guys think would have the team winning through that?

Shanahan couldn't do it, and he had more healthy players than this.


I've said it and no one really disagrees. If we're healthy, we have a winning record right now. There's no way we lose the Jville/Jets games with a full squad, and that likely makes things much different coming into the Raiders game.

But, those are pesky details that people don't want to deal with. It's frustrating to recognize that circumstances and factors play into a team's success.

It's easier to just blame the coach or the QB.

Taco John
10-27-2010, 11:18 AM
It's easier to just blame the coach or the QB.


I don't see how anyone could blame Orton for any of this at this point. Josh, on the other hand, deserves plenty of criticism. It's easy to blame him because he bears responsibility.

And guessing whether we win with a full and healthy squad isn't the same as winning. Who knows if we win with a full and healthy squad, and what's the point of guessing?

ColoradoDarin
10-27-2010, 11:19 AM
I think you guys need to realize that the soft lifestyle Denver has leads to soft football teams.

Don't worry, Super La Nina (http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-super-la-nina-and-the-coming-winter/?singlepage=true) is coming, and along with it, a really long and cold winter..... That'll toughen them up, unless they're all in FL golfing by then.

WolfpackGuy
10-27-2010, 11:19 AM
Bowlen is tearin this team apart.

What a pathetic joke our team has become.

ColoradoDarin
10-27-2010, 11:19 AM
I don't see how anyone could blame Orton for any of this at this point. Josh, on the other hand, deserves plenty of criticism. It's easy to blame him because he bears responsibility.

He stabbed Doom in the pec! I knew it!!

CEH
10-27-2010, 11:26 AM
Shanahan couldn't do it, and he had more healthy players than this.


I've said it and no one really disagrees. If we're healthy, we have a winning record right now. There's no way we lose the Jville/Jets games with a full squad, and that likely makes things much different coming into the Raiders game.

But, those are pesky details that people don't want to deal with. It's frustrating to recognize that circumstances and factors play into a team's success.

It's easier to just blame the coach or the QB.

My main issue with this sentiment is injuries happen in the NFL maybe we have more than our fair share but let's say Josh walks into Pat's office and uses this rational. If I'm Pat don't I look at Josh and say OK you have had 8 picks in the last two drafts so where are my defensive players that should in there instead of a Joe Mays, Nate Jones, Cassisus Vaugh, etc.

Well Pat I had to use a pick on a QB to replace the one we left go. Fine but what is wrong with Orton? Well Pat I had to use a 1st on a WR we had to let go. Well Pat I had to use a 1st on a RB because Hillis is too dumb to play in my system. I had to let the C go to the Chifs and replace him with a rookie whose having a tough time right now. Well Josh KC seems to be doing pretty well leading the league in rushing with our old C.

I just think Josh is going to have a real hard time explaining why he hasn't implemented his visison yet and use injuries as the central excuse.

Maybe Pat/Joe will buy it because Josh can certainly talk a good game

bloodsunday
10-27-2010, 11:29 AM
If we're healthy, we have a winning record right now. There's no way we lose the Jville/Jets games with a full squad

You have a higher opinion of those that are healthy than most. Other than Doom, who are we missing, particularly in that Jags game?

We missed a few OL, but they have been flip-flopping those guys even when healthy. Moreno missed time, but he hasn't been lighting it up when healthy.

This team still cannot rush the passer, stop the run, or run the ball. I have a hard time believing that those facts are simply due to injury. Perhaps we'd be a better pass rushing team with Doom, but I still don't think we'd be much better than average in that category (we were 10th in the league last year with him). It's hard to be quality pass rush team when you cannot stop the run.

We'll never know, but I just don't think that this team's flaws are entirely due to injury. I DO (and did) think that if we are healthy (and mentally right), we have a chance to win some games down the stretch because the schedule is, comparatively, much easier. But after watching Sunday's game I just don't know where this team's collective-head is at.

Taco John
10-27-2010, 11:30 AM
My main issue with this sentiment is injuries happen in the NFL maybe we have more than our fair share but let's say Josh walks into Pat's office and uses this rational. If I'm Pat don't I look at Josh and say OK you have had 8 picks in the last two drafts so where are my defensiove players that should in in there instead of a Joe Mays, Nate Jones, Cassisu Vaugh, etc.

Well Pat I had to use a pick on a QB to replace the one we left go. Fine but what is wrong with Orton? Well Pat I had to use a 1st on a WR we had to let go. Well Pat I had to use a 1st on a RB because Hillis is too dumb to play in my system. I had to let the C go to the Chifs and replace him with a rookie whose having a tough time right now. Well Josh KC seems to be doing pretty well leading the league in rushing with our old C.

I just think Josh is going to have a real hard time explaining why he hasn't implemented his visison yet and use injuries as the central excuse.

Maybe Pat/Joe will buy it because Josh can certainly talk a good game


Well what about all these injuries Josh? Well Pat, I wanted to implement a tough football team, especially in the red zone, and so we have been going with tougher practices that tax our guys more. Are we tougher, especially in the red zone? Well Pat - no.

CEH
10-27-2010, 11:33 AM
Well what about all these injuries Josh? Well Pat, I wanted to implement a tough football team, especially in the red zone, and so we have been going with tougher practices that tax our guys more. Are we tougher, especially in the red zone? Well Pat - no.

Right now there is too much of the same old same old and it didn't help Josh to miss out on the playoffs last year. That definetly would have bought him a do over this year with the injuries.

go_broncos
10-27-2010, 11:34 AM
Shanahan couldn't do it, and he had more healthy players than this.


I've said it and no one really disagrees. If we're healthy, we have a winning record right now. There's no way we lose the Jville/Jets games with a full squad, and that likely makes things much different coming into the Raiders game.

But, those are pesky details that people don't want to deal with. It's frustrating to recognize that circumstances and factors play into a team's success.

It's easier to just blame the coach or the QB.

Even with the full strength..we won 2 out of 10 games last year.

bendog
10-27-2010, 11:35 AM
Good stuff, but you really only addressed 1 part of this thread -- if there is a lockout.

But what about on-going operations (if there isn't a lockout or when it's over). I don't have an issue with B-Marsh or Cutler, but pulling an offer that you've already made to Champ Bailey off the table? That's a unique deal.

And, how does this impact any potential coaching or other front-office changes? Would he actually fire McDaniels and pay him 4M a year to be someone else's OC?

I thought I did. IF you believe what the league says, most every team will have cash flow problems with the current CBA with players getting over 60% of shared revenue. Den really can't compete with a NY or Dallas level of club seats and non-shared revenue. According to the owners, expenses of operating teams are going up faster than shared revenues. And seeing the run up in tix prices, I don't think they are totally lying.

IMO, Shanny is in Washington right now because Snyder will and can pay out contracts that Bowlen won't/can't. At the close of 2008, I think Bowlen said ... "well, I might have given up some of my 700 million to go to another superbowl before I'm in depends, but it's time to flush this baby."

With Champ, I think it's obvious that every week or so it becomes more ominous in terms of having no pro-football (outside the SEC and USC) in 2011. Why pay the guy millions in signing bonus? Esp because Champ will be 34 and have had no team superivised conditioning for at least 12 mos when the contract is resolved. My guess is that he'll play a credible weak side safety for some team in 2012, but maybe not.

Since shanny got fired, the only vet Bowlen paid the big bonus to to lockup longterm was Doom. There's a pattern, and imo its not coincidental. I'm not bitching about it, but the pattern's there. IMO, this is not only to prepare for the lockout but POST lockout there will be a new CBA at sometime. Players are not going to get paid as much. If there is still a salary cap type structure, then giving out Manningesque contracts with QB's who drink alcohol with type 1 Diabetes, or WR's with hips that get secret surgeries, may not seem like good strategic planning.

Would Bowlen fire McDaniels and pay an extra 4 million? If the fans start wearing paperbags, 4 million would be cheap compared to seeing season ticket holders not renew. But my guess is that Bowlen just wants to get the chorfs out of Invesco without another blowout, and then he will have a year of workstoppage to evaluate how McDaniels-Tebow is working out.

colonelbeef
10-27-2010, 11:36 AM
Hm, he's put together a pretty effective offense, in the face of a lot of injuries, and it looked like the D would be a lot better too, before Doom, Ayers, Dawkins got hurt.

Exactly who do you guys think would have the team winning through that?

In what world is the offense effective?

TDmvp
10-27-2010, 11:38 AM
This IS NOT MY WEBSITE , I REPEAT .... NOT MY WEBSITE LOL ...

http://www.joshmcdanielssucks.com/

http://www.joshmcdanielssucks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Drew-Litton.gif


But they do have some funny Tshirts ...

http://www.joshmcdanielssucks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/tshirt_thinkoutsidethebelichick_white.gifhttp://www.joshmcdanielssucks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/tshirt_jms_jmjusttradedme.gif

colonelbeef
10-27-2010, 11:40 AM
Shanahan couldn't do it, and he had more healthy players than this.


I've said it and no one really disagrees. If we're healthy, we have a winning record right now. There's no way we lose the Jville/Jets games with a full squad, and that likely makes things much different coming into the Raiders game.

But, those are pesky details that people don't want to deal with. It's frustrating to recognize that circumstances and factors play into a team's success.

It's easier to just blame the coach or the QB.

I am starting to feel bad for you, you are so insanely deluded...

bloodsunday
10-27-2010, 11:40 AM
My main issue with this sentiment is injuries happen in the NFL maybe

Well, the sentiment that all teams have them and you just have to play through them is somewhat over done. Pittsburgh faded terribly last year on D without Troy. That's just plain fact.

That said, the only injury that we have suffered this year that I see as "crippling" is potentially the loss of Doom, especially after giving him a new contract. It has impacted our pass rush, at least statically.

BUT, I don't think that losing Dumervil took us from an outstanding D to a below average D. We would have struggled to stop the run anyway, and this the issue really killing this defense. Dumervil had 10 of his 17 sacks during our 6 - 0 start when we were a quality run defense (statistically). He only had 7 down the stretch as we struggled to stop the run.

TonyR
10-27-2010, 11:41 AM
Let's hope Bowlen still has enough brain cells working to hire a real talent evaluator guy who can give him some real advice...

Remember when he let Shanahan go he said he wouldn't give the next coach the same kind of power Shanahan had, and then he did exactly that. The problem is a good, experienced GM costs a lot of money. He needs to get rid of Joe Ellis and bring somebody in to run a football team for crying out loud.

go_broncos
10-27-2010, 11:41 AM
Why do you care so much about what other teams or the media think about us? It's an obession for you.

I want to know what media or other analysts thinks about our team.
This thread is about what ESPN thinks about Mcd's future.

If you are not bothered about what media says, why did you open this thread?

Mountain Bronco
10-27-2010, 11:43 AM
Shanahan couldn't do it, and he had more healthy players than this.


I've said it and no one really disagrees. If we're healthy, we have a winning record right now. There's no way we lose the Jville/Jets games with a full squad, and that likely makes things much different coming into the Raiders game.

But, those are pesky details that people don't want to deal with. It's frustrating to recognize that circumstances and factors play into a team's success.

It's easier to just blame the coach or the QB.


You must really be in fantasy land. The players, coach etc.. aren't getting it done. Injuries happen to every team it isn't an excuse, plus you have to draft depth becuase you should know that injuries will happen, but apparently the Broncos don't have that depth. This is a lousy team from top to bottom and that is it.

For the record, I say give Josh one more year to figure it out, because I think he has a talented mind, but was way in over his head, but maybe a year like this, which is the first he has ever had in football, will make him really think about his job and adjust.

bloodsunday
10-27-2010, 11:44 AM
IMO, Shanny is in Washington right now because Snyder will and can pay out contracts that Bowlen won't/can't. At the close of 2008, I think Bowlen said ... "well, I might have given up some of my 700 million to go to another superbowl before I'm in depends, but it's time to flush this baby."

This is really at the heart of what I am asking/wondering. Bowlen's fortune is tied up in the team. That creates a cash flow problem (potentially) as he does't have liquid money to invest in things NOT related to the CBA (like coaching staff, GM, etc...). Yes he's a rich man, but does he have an equal playing field with owners like Jerry Jones and Daniel Snyder?

go_broncos
10-27-2010, 11:46 AM
This IS NOT MY WEBSITE , I REPEAT .... NOT MY WEBSITE LOL ...

http://www.joshmcdanielssucks.com/

http://www.joshmcdanielssucks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Drew-Litton.gif


But they do have some funny Tshirts ...

http://www.joshmcdanielssucks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/tshirt_thinkoutsidethebelichick_white.gifhttp://www.joshmcdanielssucks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/tshirt_jms_jmjusttradedme.gif

I was told that i should not bother about what media thinks about our team.
I will now believe in whatever popps and Baja says.

NFLBRONCO
10-27-2010, 11:48 AM
At this moment, I see no reason to hold on to the guy. This is the fact: right now, we lose nothing by cutting him lose. We're literaly on square zero. We have no idea if this offensive line is going to pan out. We have no idea if our running game is going to pan out. We have no idea if our QBOTF is going to pan out. We have no idea if our defensive strategy is going to pan out. We have nothing but question marks all over the field. More than we've had in a decade.

Here's fact number two: Josh owes it to Bowlen to prove why he should be given the chance to stick around. It's not the other way around. Bowlen doesn't owe it to Josh to give him three years. Josh has to earn that and right now he is failing.

There isn't a team on our schedule that we can't beat through the rest of the year. There should be no reason that we can't finish the season with at least 6 wins.

It's a sad day in Broncos land when I'm looking at 6 wins as the optimistic high water mark. Screw you Josh and your lose to Tom freaking Cable ways.






I can see a reason we'd win 5 games or less. Zero pass rush Zero run game zero speed in backfield avg qb. These are problems McD's or next coach has facing them. So lots of losses can easily happen until they are upgraded majorly. Too many orange tinted glasses present here talent on this team is vastly overrated.

TDmvp
10-27-2010, 11:50 AM
I was told that i should not bother about what media thinks about our team.
I will now believe in whatever popps and Baja says.



Dang it , Popps and Baja have got to another one LOL ....

I guess that means you will be starting lots of lame polls and being a totally Josh slurpper...


The horror ...

baja
10-27-2010, 11:50 AM
You must really be in fantasy land. The players, coach etc.. aren't getting it done. Injuries happen to every team it isn't an excuse, plus you have to draft depth becuase you should know that injuries will happen, but apparently the Broncos don't have that depth. This is a lousy team from top to bottom and that is it.

<b>For the record, I say give Josh one more year to figure it out, because I think he has a talented mind, but was way in over his head, but maybe a year like this, which is the first he has ever had in football, will make him really think about his job and adjust.

For those of you that are disillusioned with McD I would offer this post as a standard for representing a reasonable position to take going forward.

TDmvp
10-27-2010, 11:53 AM
For those of you that are disillusioned with McD I would offer this post as a standard for representing a reasonable position to take going forward.

Yea I pretty much agree with you and what you quoted ...

And we can't fire Josh this early , we would look even stupider , and we don't have enough games to evaluate him fairly really yet..

The Joker
10-27-2010, 11:54 AM
That Raider game destroyed more or less all the good will I have towards McD. He's skating on thin ice with me.

The main reason I'd keep him around for another year is Tebow.

One thing McDaniels has proven is that he's absolutely brilliant at developing QB's. It'd be a shame to cut McDaniels loose now because I really think I'd regret not getting to see what he could do with such a monstrous talent as Tebow.

I'm not saying he's the only guy who could work with Tim and bring his game along, but I can't really think of anyone better that we could get right now, quite frankly.

baja
10-27-2010, 11:55 AM
IMO, Shanny is in Washington right now because Snyder will and can pay out contracts that Bowlen won't/can't. At the close of 2008, I think Bowlen said ... "well, I might have given up some of my 700 million to go to another superbowl before I'm in depends, but it's time to flush this baby."

.

Shanny is in Washington right now because he was fired for ineptitude in Denver

gunns
10-27-2010, 11:56 AM
Really. Everyone including the water boy should be on thin ice.

Finally. Amen! :thumbsup:

WolfpackGuy
10-27-2010, 11:56 AM
Disillusioned?

A lot of us saw this ****storm brewing a LONG time ago.

TDmvp
10-27-2010, 11:59 AM
That Raider game destroyed more or less all the good will I have towards McD. He's skating on thin ice with me.

The main reason I'd keep him around for another year is Tebow.

One thing McDaniels has proven is that he's absolutely brilliant at developing QB's. It'd be a shame to cut McDaniels loose now because I really think I'd regret not getting to see what he could do with such a monstrous talent as Tebow.

I'm not saying he's the only guy who could work with Tim and bring his game along, but I can't really think of anyone better that we could get right now, quite frankly.




You could almost change your post and make it how I felt about shanny.
How do you fire him when you have this MONSTROUSLY talented QB like Cutler when shanny is so brilliant at developing Qbs.


About my only fear about losing Josh , is if he goes Tebow goes , and even tho I hated the Tebow pick Tim is so hard not to like and he growing on me...

I hope if we do lose Josh the next guy gives Tim a shot to stay and do well.

strafen
10-27-2010, 12:02 PM
No one is afraid of our team.
Everyone is making fun of us..
On the radio yesterday, there are comments like 'It looked like Denver was playing against Giants on Monday'.
These type of jokes i used to hear about teams like Lions and Raiders.
Mcd doesn't know what he is doing..We can't even convert 3rd/4th and Short.
I want Bowlen to fire Mcd Now..Exactly. Bowlen will not put up with Mcd's incompetence.
3-14 in the last 17 games?
Worst defeatr in 43 years?

FIRE McDANIELS already!!!



Popps, please say it ain't so!

baja
10-27-2010, 12:03 PM
Disillusioned?

A lot of us saw this ****storm brewing a LONG time ago.

" Disillusioned " is for the skeptical but willing to take a wait and see attitude that feel blind sided by the ass kicking last Sunday.

On the other hand I call guys like you pre judgmental, IE coming to a conclusion before the facts are available for review.

strafen
10-27-2010, 12:04 PM
Shanny is in Washington right now because he was fired for ineptitude in DenverDang!
You beat me to it.
I was going to say...
In before the Shanahan card gets played by a McDanielks apologist.
Oh well. Too late. I'm sure I can try at least a couple more times before the day is over...

Kaylore
10-27-2010, 12:07 PM
Shefter has better sources in Denver than anybody.
This is no longer true.

Quoydogs
10-27-2010, 12:09 PM
I think it would be a big mistake. You can't evaluate a guy when most of his starting defense isn't on the field.

You can when you get blown out 59-14 by one of the worst teams in the league.

gunns
10-27-2010, 12:13 PM
Hm, he's put together a pretty effective offense, in the face of a lot of injuries, and it looked like the D would be a lot better too, before Doom, Ayers, Dawkins got hurt.

Exactly who do you guys think would have the team winning through that?

Now I'm not one calling for the immediate beheading of McD but two things that have stuck in the back of my mind in assessing McD is the trading of a number 1 for Smith last year and going almost all offensive in the draft this year. Just makes my skin crawl to see us take another WR as our first pick and then in the same round take what has the potential for turning out to be our team mascot. Makes me wonder if his focus isn't too much on offense and he doesn't know exactly what to throw at the D. Reminded me of the way Shanahan brought the best for the offense, threw garbage at the D, and took two WR's in the first round. Scary.

baja
10-27-2010, 12:13 PM
Dang!
You beat me to it.
I was going to say...
In before the Shanahan card gets played by a McDanielks apologist.
Oh well. Too late. I'm sure I can try at least a couple more times before the day is over...

I understand it helps with your emotional pain to take your anger out on a poster that has a different view than you so I don't take it personal.

If you can get a little separation from that hurtful loss I think you will see firing Josh now is a knee jerk move like the one Al Davis pulled when he fired Shanny mid season. Ask yourself how'd that turn out for them? Looks to me like the fired a HOF coach before he even got his system fully implemented. Sound familiar?

gunns
10-27-2010, 12:19 PM
You must really be in fantasy land. The players, coach etc.. aren't getting it done. Injuries happen to every team it isn't an excuse, plus you have to draft depth becuase you should know that injuries will happen, but apparently the Broncos don't have that depth. This is a lousy team from top to bottom and that is it.

For the record, I say give Josh one more year to figure it out, because I think he has a talented mind, but was way in over his head, but maybe a year like this, which is the first he has ever had in football, will make him really think about his job and adjust.

Excellent. Someone who gets it. So, so tired of the excuses. I can take a losing season, but not one that happened because a team isn't putting forth their best effort. And it isn't just McD that's to blame here.

ColoradoDarin
10-27-2010, 12:22 PM
This is really at the heart of what I am asking/wondering. Bowlen's fortune is tied up in the team. That creates a cash flow problem (potentially) as he does't have liquid money to invest in things NOT related to the CBA (like coaching staff, GM, etc...). Yes he's a rich man, but does he have an equal playing field with owners like Jerry Jones and Daniel Snyder?

I thought Tebow and his jersey sales solved all of that?

bendog
10-27-2010, 12:22 PM
This is really at the heart of what I am asking/wondering. Bowlen's fortune is tied up in the team. That creates a cash flow problem (potentially) as he does't have liquid money to invest in things NOT related to the CBA (like coaching staff, GM, etc...). Yes he's a rich man, but does he have an equal playing field with owners like Jerry Jones and Daniel Snyder?

Jones personally paid the cost overruns on "JerryDome."

http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/texas/entry/jerrydome_or_jerry_dome_dallas_cowboys_stadium_in_ arlington/

I think I recall reading that Jones actually made more in the oil biz during the time of construction than the stadium cost him, but I don't have a link. So, yeah, I'd say there's an advantage. Bowlen had to get a bridge loan from Elway's deferred contract payments to build the Diaphram and it cost Den draft picks. I assume that JerryDome gives the cowboy's more revenue that they don't have to share with other owners. And teams can spend MORE than the CBA allocates to players. There's no limit to how much teams can BACKload contracts. You posted about how little dead money the Broncos are carrying. I posted that I'm not aware of any media investigation to see if Bowlen is squirrling away fan money to eventually pay taxes on his gains when he dies/sells. But, it doesn't take a genius to notice that Jerry Jones and Snyder are paying more for PLAYERS than Den is.

I'm not sure what this link shows, but the comparisons of JerryDome to other stadiums ability to generate revenue seems ... scary.

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/Econ/faculty/Vrooman/cowboys-estimate.pdf

Snyder's a nice piece of work. He jams up fans even more than Jones and the Jests. It doesn't surprise me that that's were Shanny landed. I've never bothered to find a link, but my guess has always been that Snyder is happy to finance his operations out of the value of the franchise. The team has to be worth more now than he paid for it, and he's having fun. During the 80s and 90s NFL frachises were cash machines. No owner could actually lose money, and they returned more than buyign US Debt.

But Bam Cartoons did a piece on even Jerry having to cut labor costs on running his stadium. I know for a fact that the money coming from the Pepsi Center depends on renting the place out for non-sports events as much as from the attendance at games.

The Cowboys aren't doing much better than Denver. Washington has a really good defense, and Shanny's trying to do it with smoke and mirrors and fragile QB on offense. So, I'm not sure there's really an issue of the Broncos being unable to field teams because of costs.

bendog
10-27-2010, 12:27 PM
Shanny is in Washington right now because he was fired for ineptitude in Denver

Seriously baja ... get the **** over it. Whether Bowlen screwed the pooch hiring McKid is something we'll have to see. Shanny had job offers, and he chose Wash.

Garcia Bronco
10-27-2010, 12:29 PM
Firing McDaniels going into a lockout is stupid. And there will be a lockout unless the players give in.

Beantown Bronco
10-27-2010, 12:30 PM
I know for a fact that the money coming from the Pepsi Center depends on renting the place out for non-sports events as much as from the attendance at games.

I think all hockey/basketball arenas are like that. They have to be, considering they'd be empty 3/4 of the year otherwise.

baja
10-27-2010, 12:39 PM
Seriously baja ... get the **** over it. Whether Bowlen screwed the pooch hiring McKid is something we'll have to see. Shanny had job offers, and he chose Wash.

Just what is it I need to "get over"

The part of your post I quoted suggests Shanny left Denver for a better offer I was just setting the record straight. He 'left' denver because Bowlen could no longer afford his expensive failures.

But you are right about one thing Snyder can afford Shanny's expensive failures.

fontaine
10-27-2010, 01:15 PM
At this moment, I see no reason to hold on to the guy. This is the fact: right now, we lose nothing by cutting him lose. We're literaly on square zero. We have no idea if this offensive line is going to pan out. We have no idea if our running game is going to pan out. We have no idea if our QBOTF is going to pan out. We have no idea if our defensive strategy is going to pan out. We have nothing but question marks all over the field. More than we've had in a decade.

Here's fact number two: Josh owes it to Bowlen to prove why he should be given the chance to stick around. It's not the other way around. Bowlen doesn't owe it to Josh to give him three years. Josh has to earn that and right now he is failing.

There isn't a team on our schedule that we can't beat through the rest of the year. There should be no reason that we can't finish the season with at least 6 wins.

It's a sad day in Broncos land when I'm looking at 6 wins as the optimistic high water mark. Screw you Josh and your lose to Tom freaking Cable ways.

That's not entirely true.

We already know Daniels/Baptiste won't pan out because, well, they suck. Walton has shown that he's a liability.

And Maroney/Buckhalter won't be here after this season. Hell Maroney had NO business being here THIS season. Hochstein probably won't be around and if he is, it'll be nothing more than a backup.

That leaves the players we already had in Clady/Kuper/Harris and Moreno. And oh yeah, 3 holes to fill - two starters along the OL (LG/C - same as it was two years ago) and a RB to share the load (same as it was two years ago).

So much for fixing the trenches huh Josh?

10 draft picks in the first three rounds and we're still getting suckered into dead end trades like a 4th for a useless, hesitant RB who's just such a smart, tough player.

TheReverend
10-27-2010, 01:21 PM
Shanny is in Washington right now because he was fired for ineptitude in Denver

Disgusting ingrate.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs546.snc3/29897_397426227860_566297860_4263235_1126780_n.jpg


And so inept that after his "failure" he's the 3rd highest paid coach in all of sports:

http://www.footballnewsnow.com/2010/belichick-highest-paid-coach-in-nfl-shanahan-and-carroll-close-behind/

And btw, it's spelled psychic, physic means something totally different you off the charts ****ing moron.

bendog
10-27-2010, 01:23 PM
That's not entirely true.

We already know Daniels/Baptiste won't pan out because, well, they suck. Walton has shown that he's a liability.

And Maroney/Buckhalter won't be here after this season. Hell Maroney had NO business being here THIS season.

That leaves the players we already had in Clady/Kuper/Harris and Moreno.

So much for fixing the trenches huh Josh?

Whan baja posts "wily old vets" he's got it half right. (-: But Beadles and Walton are the guys we don't know about. The people who can't stand to see McDaniels fail, despite the fact that he's failing at present, cannot admit that he screwed up in blowing up an offense that really only had a failing at oline, and there even just the interior. Harris is nothing special, but there are plenty of guys like pork chop womack or Batiste who can fit in at RT

Problem now is that even if Beadles and Walton solve the center and one guard needs, they still need another young lineman, and McDaniels is in YEAR 3. And the defense sucks worse than ever.

broncogary
10-27-2010, 01:28 PM
Blueflame's minions are on the prowl.

Cosmo
10-27-2010, 01:31 PM
This may have been answered somewhere else, but I gotta know.

Does our defense suck without all the injuries?

Mean, if Elvis and Ayers were playing, and Goodman was never out, do we still suck?

And I'm not saying injuries are a good excuse for a coach, I mean hell, injuries didn't save Shanny from being fired. Just wondering if our defensive woes are solvable with a player or two or does the entire thing need to be gutted?

fontaine
10-27-2010, 01:46 PM
This may have been answered somewhere else, but I gotta know.

Does our defense suck without all the injuries?

Mean, if Elvis and Ayers were playing, and Goodman was never out, do we still suck?

And I'm not saying injuries are a good excuse for a coach, I mean hell, injuries didn't save Shanny from being fired. Just wondering if our defensive woes are solvable with a player or two or does the entire thing need to be gutted?

We're a much better pass rushing team with Ayers/Doom simply because they have the individual talent to beat their guys one on one.

But against the run, I'm not convinced those guys make a difference. We got dismantled defensively starting from our front 3 or 4, didn't matter if the we 3-4 or 4-3. Apart from Vickerson, there's nobody else injured along the DL.

And that's been the primary problem with McDaniels. He said right from his very first press conference that fixing the trenches would be the priority.

By his own measure he's failed miserabely. We're worse in stopping the run and our OL/running game has taken giant leaps backwards.

Until he fixes that by drafting real talent along the DL/OL AND bringing in difference makers either through trade or free agency we'll keep seeing the same problems over and over again.

The only difference in the past was that Shanahan had enough experience and know how to put up a .500 team even with those problems.

Josh doesn't.

ColoradoDarin
10-27-2010, 02:16 PM
We're a much better pass rushing team with Ayers/Doom simply because they have the individual talent to beat their guys one on one.

But against the run, I'm not convinced those guys make a difference. We got dismantled defensively starting from our front 3 or 4, didn't matter if the we 3-4 or 4-3. Apart from Vickerson, there's nobody else injured along the DL.

And that's been the primary problem with McDaniels. He said right from his very first press conference that fixing the trenches would be the priority.

By his own measure he's failed miserabely. We're worse in stopping the run and our OL/running game has taken giant leaps backwards.

Until he fixes that by drafting real talent along the DL/OL AND bringing in difference makers either through trade or free agency we'll keep seeing the same problems over and over again.

The only difference in the past was that Shanahan had enough experience and know how to put up a .500 team even with those problems.

Josh doesn't.

Except is seems like Ayers was our best run stopper

strafen
10-27-2010, 02:20 PM
Disgusting ingrate.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs546.snc3/29897_397426227860_566297860_4263235_1126780_n.jpg


And so inept that after his "failure" he's the 3rd highest paid coach in all of sports:

http://www.footballnewsnow.com/2010/belichick-highest-paid-coach-in-nfl-shanahan-and-carroll-close-behind/

And btw, it's spelled psychic, physic means something totally different you off the charts ****ing moron.This.
Baja got his nose so up in Mcdaniel's ass, it's disturbing.
He goes to extremes to come up with the most stupid crap you could ever read here.
He's a Mcdaniels shill, no doubt in my mind...

Drek
10-27-2010, 03:02 PM
This may have been answered somewhere else, but I gotta know.

Does our defense suck without all the injuries?

Mean, if Elvis and Ayers were playing, and Goodman was never out, do we still suck?

And I'm not saying injuries are a good excuse for a coach, I mean hell, injuries didn't save Shanny from being fired. Just wondering if our defensive woes are solvable with a player or two or does the entire thing need to be gutted?
We were a solid if not spectacular D through the early part of the season even without Doom.

When we lost Ayers, Goodman, and Dawkins we started to fall apart. But then you take three starters off almost any defense and they're having problems. Do that after you took a pro-bowl pass rusher off too and you've got a recipe for disaster.

But the facts remain the same. This team should be doing better than it is. If the depth isn't getting it done then we should have gotten better depth in the off-season.

I really like McDaniels. I think he's got a refreshing take on how to run a football team, he's had two quality off-seasons here in Denver, and his offense when running right is electric. But in the end injuries aren't acceptable excuses. Short of a full on melt down of epic proportions I think he deserves and will get a third season here. But beyond that not much else is certain. At some point you need to overcome adversity in its many forms and actually win football games.

I will say this though. If McDaniels continues to suffer bad breaks here in Denver to the point where Bowlen feels the need to replace him we're going to hear a whole lot of the same people crying to get rid of him now bitching about it down the road when he's coaching the league's best offense and winning divisions (and possibly titles) for someone else. He has an exceptionally acute mind for many aspects of football, and will eventually find a way to focus them towards winning football games.

baja
10-27-2010, 03:07 PM
Yep this is my vision too. Hope it's in Denver Josh is winning championships


But if we win a few more games all the panicked talk around here will tale off.

Rohirrim
10-27-2010, 03:12 PM
Yep this is my vision too. Hope it's in Denver Josh is winning championships


But if we win a few more games all the panicked talk around here will tale off.

How many years do you give a young coach? I agree, eventually Josh will be a good head coach. That's the problem. How long do you wait for the payoff?

baja
10-27-2010, 03:13 PM
Disgusting ingrate.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs546.snc3/29897_397426227860_566297860_4263235_1126780_n.jpg


And so inept that after his "failure" he's the 3rd highest paid coach in all of sports:

http://www.footballnewsnow.com/2010/belichick-highest-paid-coach-in-nfl-shanahan-and-carroll-close-behind/

And btw, it's spelled psychic, physic means something totally different you off the charts ****ing moron.

physic - 6 dictionary results
Spiritual Counseling
TherapyReadings/Shamanic Journeying Free initial consultation
Denverspiritualcounseling.com

baja
10-27-2010, 03:17 PM
How many years do you give a young coach? I agree, eventually Josh will be a good head coach. That's the problem. How long do you wait for the payoff?

I don't know but firing him now is fool hardy

At the end of the season things will be clearer

Rohirrim
10-27-2010, 03:18 PM
I don't know but firing him now is fool hardy

At the end of the season things will be clearer

I agree. I want to see what he does with the remaining AFCW games.

baja
10-27-2010, 03:20 PM
If you watch Josh's pressers with a careful eye and ear it appears his confidence is eroded. Who knows what Bowlen said to him or not. Watch it again and see if you don't see a guy struggling to appear confident and ready to move on. His words say it but his body language give up something else. Time will tell. Hope he makes it.

Dagmar
10-27-2010, 03:26 PM
If you watch Josh's pressers with a careful eye and ear it appears his confidence is eroded. Who knows what Bowlen said to him or not. Watch it again and see if you don't see a guy struggling to appear confident and ready to move on. His words say it but his body language give up something else. Time will tell. Hope he makes it.

I liked his pressed today. Can't remember the question but on Moreno he answered very strongly and confidently that he was NOT a two down player, when fit the majority of the reps are his. He was confident there at least.

Drek
10-27-2010, 03:27 PM
Yep this is my vision too. Hope it's in Denver Josh is winning championships


But if we win a few more games all the panicked talk around here will tale off.

Of course. After this team beat the Titans suddenly we were on top of the world, Josh was the man, Orton was an all-pro QB, the defense was comprised entirely of players who chewed iron and spit nails, and the OL was going to put it together.

There is a certain Machiavellian ebb and flow to this board, it so often fits his descriptions of the common folk and general military. One particular quote I find exceptionally applicable:

"good order makes men bold, and confusion, cowards"

TheReverend
10-27-2010, 03:31 PM
physic - 6 dictionary results
Spiritual Counseling
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Denverspiritualcounseling.com

Edit: Why bother

Hamrob
10-27-2010, 03:31 PM
Right, I guess was my question is two fold:
1) Was his decision to fire Shanahan and cut expenses the last 2 years related to the possibility of a lockout (at least in part)? See these two articles referencing how finances have been a big part of the new strategy since firing Shanahan:
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16077150
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16440005

2) Bowlen is not one of these Billionaire owners with cash flow coming from other ventures. Is he having cash flow problems? It's one thing to manage your team to salary cap, but it's a completely different thing to manager to cash. They are separate accounting systems. For example, bonuses are paid up front (cash immediately out the door) but are pro-rated against the cap. This question is important because it will impact how this team is run before and after any lockout. For example, would he fire McDaniels with 2 years remaining on a contract (and all the staff)?Very good post! I've wondered the same thing. The only part that has me puzzled is signing guys like Doom and Kuper to big contracts and bringing FA's in at suprisingly large contracts for prior production...such as 4yr/$10m deals. Why spend that money if you're honestly trying to go conservative?

Hamrob
10-27-2010, 03:40 PM
I think McDaniels is done. I've said this repeatedly...but, the homer in me...wants to see him turn it around.

I think Taco pointed out that there are question marks all over this team...more than we've ever had perhaps. I agree with that.

However, I really truly believe...if we could find a way to run the ball and balance out our offense...we could compensate for many of the other deficiencies. A good offensive attack helps a defense tremendously and takes the pressure off of the special teams. If we could find away to start getting 4-5yds a clip...I think we turn this season around quickly. With our remaining schedule...if we could (somehow) find a way to run the ball effectively...I think we win 6-7 of the remaining games. That's McD's best shot...IMO.

Blowouts happen because of the snowball affect. Teams get up on you quickly and you panic. The Raiders go up on us 7-0 and what happens...Orton throws a pick 6...then we have a fumble on the very next offensive possession and boom, it's 21-0.

The game was over before it truly started. Had we not gone immediately to our bread and butter and thrown a low percentage pass (Orton) and instead sustained a drive through a balanced attack...and made it 7-3. Then, I like our chances any day against the Faid.

That snowball started rolling and there was nothing we could do to stop it. This was just 6:00 into the game. We need to be able to run the football. We have good enough players to do so...McD needs to find a way!

Kaylore
10-27-2010, 03:46 PM
Very good post! I've wondered the same thing. The only part that has me puzzled is signing guys like Doom and Kuper to big contracts and bringing FA's in at suprisingly large contracts for prior production...such as 4yr/$10m deals. Why spend that money if you're honestly trying to go conservative?

Because it's a bunch of crap. Bowlen is paying two head coaches this year. He was paying more last year. He allowed McD to trade back into the first which cost more money, and we've signed a crap load of free agents. Not to mention our own extensions. This idea that Bowlen is broke and won't spend has been proven completely false. In fact he's been spending more lately, and firing Shanahan was more expensive than keeping him.

HAT
10-27-2010, 03:47 PM
How many years do you give a young coach? I agree, eventually Josh will be a good head coach. That's the problem. How long do you wait for the payoff?

His contract.

Smiling Assassin27
10-27-2010, 03:47 PM
3 Words: LEAVE JOSHIE ALONE

http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/k_t_w/leave-britney-alone.jpg

baja
10-27-2010, 03:49 PM
Edit: Why bother

Shanny will do good things in Washington because he has Bruce Allan to keep his ego in check. Mike has been demoted to head coach only or didn't you know?

Too bad Bowlen couldn't have fired Shanny the GM and kept Shanny the coach.

Actually shanny is a good example of the Peter Principal . His most effective position is offensive coordinator maybe we will find that to be the case with Josh too someday but not yet.


BTW I have years of posts expressing gratitude to Mike for the great seasons he brought to the Broncos - so piss off on the ingrate stuff. Go fondle your crustacean.

LetsGoBroncos
10-27-2010, 03:54 PM
We were a solid if not spectacular D through the early part of the season even without Doom.

When we lost Ayers, Goodman, and Dawkins we started to fall apart. But then you take three starters off almost any defense and they're having problems. Do that after you took a pro-bowl pass rusher off too and you've got a recipe for disaster.

But the facts remain the same. This team should be doing better than it is. If the depth isn't getting it done then we should have gotten better depth in the off-season.

I really like McDaniels. I think he's got a refreshing take on how to run a football team, he's had two quality off-seasons here in Denver, and his offense when running right is electric. But in the end injuries aren't acceptable excuses. Short of a full on melt down of epic proportions I think he deserves and will get a third season here. But beyond that not much else is certain. At some point you need to overcome adversity in its many forms and actually win football games.

I will say this though. If McDaniels continues to suffer bad breaks here in Denver to the point where Bowlen feels the need to replace him we're going to hear a whole lot of the same people crying to get rid of him now b****ing about it down the road when he's coaching the league's best offense and winning divisions (and possibly titles) for someone else. He has an exceptionally acute mind for many aspects of football, and will eventually find a way to focus them towards winning football games.

I completely agree. Trust me, I am really disheartened by the way they played Sunday but aside from that game you have to put everything in perspective. Before the season even began on here we were all laughing about how many injuries we had gone through. Then you combine that with the fact that we had played the hardest schedule in the NFL through week 6 and you have to cut McD some slack. Now if we finish this year poorly and don't make the playoffs next year or at least show significant improvement at the end of the year then it may be time to make a change. But for now we all need to stay patient. The difference in winning and losing a game in the NFL is so small that when you have injuries combined with a tough schedule it is difficult to overcome. Now that is not an excuse that will go forever, but we should all give him three years and then see where we are at.

baja
10-27-2010, 03:58 PM
Of course. After this team beat the Titans suddenly we were on top of the world, Josh was the man, Orton was an all-pro QB, the defense was comprised entirely of players who chewed iron and spit nails, and the OL was going to put it together.

There is a certain Machiavellian ebb and flow to this board, it so often fits his descriptions of the common folk and general military. One particular quote I find exceptionally applicable:

<b>"good order makes men bold, and confusion, cowards"

If there is a key concern to be taken from the Raider game it is contained in the essence of this quote.

The situation snowballed out of hand so fast that it took on a life of it's own. It was like the perfect storm hit. The worrisome part is the coaching staff had no clue on how to break the spell. The team could not regroup. I hope Josh reflects on that part of it and I bet he will because he has shown he is a very detailed thinker. Josh will be a better coach because of this painful (for all of us) lesion.

rbackfactory80
10-27-2010, 04:19 PM
Maybe we can keep McD and have Shanny consult for the raider games.

colonelbeef
10-27-2010, 04:32 PM
Really. Everyone including the water boy should be on thin ice.

Lol, how quickly you've come around to the side of those who you were berating and fan-policing not more than a month ago.

I'll take that apology any day now.

Tombstone RJ
10-27-2010, 04:35 PM
The chapter describing the Josh McDaniels era in the Denver Broncos (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/den/denver-broncos)' history books may be a short one. After rattling off six wins to start the 2009 season, the Broncos have gone 4-13 since, including an embarrassing home loss against the Oakland Raiders (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/oak/oakland-raiders) in Week 7.
On Wednesday, ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter offered his take on what could happen with this volatile situation:

"There still is a lot of season left, particularly in a wide open division. Now, what Denver showed on Sunday was not promising in any way. And if that continues, then [owner Pat] Bowlen will have to go over candidates. Owners have had a habit of going away from what they had: Bowlen went from a proven head coach in Dan Reeves to an unproven head coach in Wade Phillips to a more proven head coach in Mike Shanahan to a less proven head coach in Josh McDaniels. If he makes a change, the guess would be he would go back to a more proven mind. But it's still way too early to tell."


Dan Reeves was not a proven head coach, was he? And Shanahan was not a proven HC either.

Taco John
10-27-2010, 04:36 PM
Dan Reeves was not a proven head coach.

Did Bowlen hire Reeves or inherit him?

baja
10-27-2010, 04:47 PM
You can bet if Josh gets fired teams in need will be lining up to interview him for there head coaching job

Taco John
10-27-2010, 04:57 PM
You can bet if Josh gets fired teams in need will be lining up to interview him for there head coaching job

I doubt it. I think he'd end up like most coaches: go somewhere as an OC, and re-group.

colonelbeef
10-27-2010, 05:04 PM
You can bet if Josh gets fired teams in need will be lining up to interview him for there head coaching job

LOL, more delusion

Yes, the NFL can't wait to get it's hands on a guy who's offense is dead last in rushing yards per game by 20 yards while being a supposed offensive 'guru'

He would be lucky to be anything other than a Qb coach if fired today.

Popps
10-27-2010, 05:05 PM
I doubt it. I think he'd end up like most coaches: go somewhere as an OC, and re-group.

I agree. But, I also think he'll wind up a winner in this league. He's an extremely bright coach. He's got things to learn, and may push too hard... but I think he's got winning football in his genetics.

I hope I'm right, and I hope we see it in the near-term.

If not, we'll move on to the next candidate and I'll root for him just as hard.

colonelbeef
10-27-2010, 05:05 PM
I doubt it. I think he'd end up like most coaches: go somewhere as an OC, and re-group.

Even that is debatable.

Drek
10-27-2010, 05:08 PM
I doubt it. I think he'd end up like most coaches: go somewhere as an OC, and re-group.

He'll go OC somewhere, build a powerhouse offense, and then move on to head coach somewhere else within 5 years.

Drek
10-27-2010, 05:11 PM
Even that is debatable.

He's got Orton putting up top 5 numbers with no OL help and Brandon Lloyd as his #1 WR. He'll be a hot ticket OC for any new defensive coach looking to turn things around.

If Bowlen let Josh go after this season Jerry Jones would jump on him for OC in a heart beat.

baja
10-27-2010, 05:24 PM
LOL, more delusion

Yes, the NFL can't wait to get it's hands on a guy who's offense is dead last in rushing yards per game by 20 yards while being a supposed offensive 'guru'

He would be lucky to be anything other than a Qb coach if fired today.

Hopefully Pat is wiser and not the reactionary than your one track pit bull mind causes you to be. You probably would have cut John Elway his first season.

Would Rod Smith ever have made a team of yours with your hair trigger short fuse brain?

You and your group are so predictable.


Ugg game lose - me hurt - me mad -fire coach - me want win now - ugg game still lose - me hurt - new coach bad too - me mad - fire 2nd coach - me hopeful.

Dagmar
10-27-2010, 05:26 PM
I doubt it. I think he'd end up like most coaches: go somewhere as an OC, and re-group.

I'm wondering your thoughts on something TJ. It seems as the week has gone on you don't want Josh fired but are very indifferent to him staying. You also seem keen, or interested by Tebow taking over.

Don't you think Josh with time could turn Tebow into an even better player than we think possible due to his success with QBs and firing Josh would hurt Tebow as much as starting him too early?

No judgement, just interested in your thoughts.

baja
10-27-2010, 05:28 PM
He's got Orton putting up top 5 numbers with no OL help and Brandon Lloyd as his #1 WR. He'll be a hot ticket OC for any new defensive coach looking to turn things around.

If Bowlen let Josh go after this season Jerry Jones would jump on him for OC in a heart beat.

I predict Josh isn't going anywhere but if he is fired and is no more tarnished that he is right now he will go straight to another HC position. It won't be as good a stop as he has here in Denver but some team like Buffalo will pursue him.

Obushma
10-27-2010, 05:29 PM
With the way this defense has played over the last couple years, its time to stick the feelers out for Cowher. I could care less if the offense ends up dead last, defensively, this team lost it's mojo after Atwater left and I want it back.

55CrushEm
10-27-2010, 05:34 PM
Hopefully Pat is wiser and not the reactionary than your one track pit bull mind causes you to be. You probably would have cut John Elway his first season.

Would Rod Smith ever have made a team of yours with your hair trigger short fuse brain?

You and your group are so predictable.


Ugg game lose - me hurt - me mad -fire coach - me want win now - ugg game still lose - me hurt - new coach bad too - me mad - fire 2nd coach - me hopeful.

Ha!

strafen
10-27-2010, 05:37 PM
Dan Reeves was not a proven head coach, was he? And Shanahan was not a proven HC either.
Huge difference here.
Let's see how you like this...

Dan Reeves came from the school of Tom Landry
Mike Shanaha came from the school of Bill Walsh
Josh Mcdaniels came from the school of Bill Bellicheat LOL Hilarious! ROFL! Ha!

Gort
10-27-2010, 05:58 PM
I know these are usually fluff pieces, but got this tweet from Rumor Central, anyone have it that can fill us in? With Schefter being in the mix it may carry some wieght.



Josh McDaniels on thin ice, and @adam_schefter tells us the type of coach Pat Bowlen may replace him with http://es.pn/bvTx5s #nfl #broncos

congratulations Denver media... you've now turned the Broncos faithful into the Jets fanbase.

i used to think Broncos fans were a bit smarter than the "oh noes!, we lost. let's fire everyone!" crowd that you find with some other teams' fanbases, but i guess 20 years of dumb Denver sportswriters and sports talk radio have turned us into the knuckle draggers that root for some teams on the east coast.

first of all, Bowlen is not going to fire McD this season. you can bank on that.

second of all, 2011 will be a lockout. no NFL. i'm 99% certain of that at this point. both sides are behaving as if a lockout is almost guaranteed.

it'll be McD's task to prove to Bowlen he deserves a 3rd year in 2012. if not, then Bowlen will have all 2011 to find a replacement. if so, then McD needs to get back to the playoffs in 2012 or he's gone.

Tebow is not ready to start and he's not going to start over Orton (barring injury) this year. he doesn't have the experience with or understanding of the system yet. if Orton gets hurt, it's going to have to be Quinn simply because he's got a couple of NFL seasons under his belt.

anybody calling for benching Orton and starting Tebow is really not very aware of reality. playing Madden 2010 doesn't make one a real NFL GM. i'm sorry, but it doesn't.

this season is what it is. we'll end up between 5-11 and 7-9 is my guess. that'll be tolerable if the team is getting better as the season goes on. if not, then Bowlen and McD will have some meetings this offseason for sure.

that's my take on it all.

Drek
10-27-2010, 06:23 PM
With the way this defense has played over the last couple years, its time to stick the feelers out for Cowher. I could care less if the offense ends up dead last, defensively, this team lost it's mojo after Atwater left and I want it back.

Is he bringing Dick LeBeau with him? No? Then don't expect the team to get any tougher.

When Dick LeBeau left Pittsburgh their defense steadily declined in production with only a brief uptick in '00 and '01, but by the end Cowher's team was relying on the run game while the defense languished in the middle of the pack.

As soon as LeBeau came back in '04? #1 in points against and #1 in yards against. Seriously. 16th and 7th respectively in each category for '02, 15th and 9th respectively in '03. 1st and 1st as soon as LeBeau came back.

Sorry, we can do better than the Chin.

TheReverend
10-27-2010, 06:34 PM
Is he bringing Dick LeBeau with him? No? Then don't expect the team to get any tougher.

When Dick LeBeau left Pittsburgh their defense steadily declined in production with only a brief uptick in '00 and '01, but by the end Cowher's team was relying on the run game while the defense languished in the middle of the pack.

As soon as LeBeau came back in '04? #1 in points against and #1 in yards against. Seriously. 16th and 7th respectively in each category for '02, 15th and 9th respectively in '03. 1st and 1st as soon as LeBeau came back.

Sorry, we can do better than the Chin.

That's absolutely absurd. The defensive performance in Pitt is absolutely better off with Dick LeBeau but to make those claims are nothing shy of ridiculous.

Here's Pitt's D stats the years LeBeau was in Cinci:

Year-Yard Rank-Scoring Rank
97- 6 - 11
98- 12 - 7
99- 11 - 12
00- 7 - 6
01- 1- 3
02- 7- 16

I absolutely don't condone hiring Bill Cowher, but what you have to say about him is simply stupid AND false.

go_broncos
10-27-2010, 06:54 PM
You can bet if Josh gets fired teams in need will be lining up to interview him for there head coaching job

Ha!ROFL!LOLHilarious!

colonelbeef
10-27-2010, 07:34 PM
He's got Orton putting up top 5 numbers with no OL help and Brandon Lloyd as his #1 WR. He'll be a hot ticket OC for any new defensive coach looking to turn things around.

If Bowlen let Josh go after this season Jerry Jones would jump on him for OC in a heart beat.

The OL sucks as a direct result of his terrible scheming.

This was a top 5 OL the year prior to McDaniels taking over.

You guys and your revisionist history, it's adorable

colonelbeef
10-27-2010, 07:36 PM
Hopefully Pat is wiser and not the reactionary than your one track pit bull mind causes you to be. You probably would have cut John Elway his first season.

Would Rod Smith ever have made a team of yours with your hair trigger short fuse brain?

You and your group are so predictable.


Ugg game lose - me hurt - me mad -fire coach - me want win now - ugg game still lose - me hurt - new coach bad too - me mad - fire 2nd coach - me hopeful.

Are you talking to me?

Get your facts straight- I fully support McDaniels getting 3 full seasons here and have from the beginning.

WolfpackGuy
10-27-2010, 07:37 PM
Let the Clancy Barone era begin.

The Broncos job isn't nearly as attractive as it once was.

It's going to take awhile to clean up this mess.

Taco John
10-27-2010, 07:54 PM
He'll go OC somewhere, build a powerhouse offense, and then move on to head coach somewhere else within 5 years.

I agree with this. When he's got someone forcing him to work with talent like Hillis instead of allowing him to ship it off for others to enjoy, he'll do a lot better.

Hillis might not be the sharpest tool in the drawer, but he's clearly got talent to work with.

strafen
10-27-2010, 09:00 PM
He'll go OC somewhere, build a powerhouse offense, and then move on to head coach somewhere else within 5 years.That remains to be seen.
The guy has proven he can definitely coach QB's, I would think that will be one of the things is already known for.
However, he was fortunate enough while in New England to have a good GM like Pioli who halped build the team for the PBS offense they wanted to implement.

If McDaniels goes to another team as an OC he would need the same type of pieces in place for him to succeed, and most likely he would have to make it work with what he's got, since he would have little authority in personnel decisions, though not autonomous

The MVPlaya
10-27-2010, 09:16 PM
This has got to be the dumbest thing I've read. The "rumor" from espn sounds like a forum post. Because in the past it was A, after that was B, then after that was A, so now B will probably happen. There is no substance or anything to the "rumor."

Well... it's the media... they've done their job as you can see by this thread.

Missouribronc
10-27-2010, 09:36 PM
If Bowlen is broke and McDaniels was hired, and Shanahan was fired, to save money, can anyone explain why payroll went up?

Anyone? Bueller?

spdirty
10-27-2010, 10:09 PM
We have regressed a lot since McDaniels took over. Anyone who doesnt see that is an idiot. But that of course isnt McDaniels fault.

Drek
10-27-2010, 10:24 PM
That's absolutely absurd. The defensive performance in Pitt is absolutely better off with Dick LeBeau but to make those claims are nothing shy of ridiculous.

Here's Pitt's D stats the years LeBeau was in Cinci:

Year-Yard Rank-Scoring Rank
97- 6 - 11
98- 12 - 7
99- 11 - 12
00- 7 - 6
01- 1- 3
02- 7- 16

I absolutely don't condone hiring Bill Cowher, but what you have to say about him is simply stupid AND false.

How is it false? With LeBeau they were constantly in the top 10 in both categories, typically top 5. Only one of those seasons was on par with what LeBeau generated as DC.

Is being the 7th best points against D and 16th best yards against D still pretty good? Sure. But teams that have the defensive run you just highlighted typically aren't viewed as one of the toughest defenses in the league.

The Steelers reputation is not something Cowher built. It was there when he showed up and he rolled with it. The single biggest thing that defined it was Dick LeBeau's defense. When LeBeau left the defense dipped from elite status to just good.

So again, why should Cowher get credit for the Steelers' "toughness" when its always been a staple and he didn't maintain it at the top level it'd been at when LeBeau left? Cowher left, LeBeau is still there, and the Steeler "toughness" is still going strong.

TheReverend
10-27-2010, 10:32 PM
How is it false? With LeBeau they were constantly in the top 10 in both categories, typically top 5. Only one of those seasons was on par with what LeBeau generated as DC.

Is being the 7th best points against D and 16th best yards against D still pretty good? Sure. But teams that have the defensive run you just highlighted typically aren't viewed as one of the toughest defenses in the league.

The Steelers reputation is not something Cowher built. It was there when he showed up and he rolled with it. The single biggest thing that defined it was Dick LeBeau's defense. When LeBeau left the defense dipped from elite status to just good.

So again, why should Cowher get credit for the Steelers' "toughness" when its always been a staple and he didn't maintain it at the top level it'd been at when LeBeau left?

By what insane standard?!?!

To put this in some modicum of perspective:

Modern Hall of Fame Defensive Minded Coaches and their ave ranking:

Jeff Fischer - 16
Bill Belicheck - 14
Tony Dungy - 14
Bill Cowher - 6

And, just for your absurd point:

Bill Cowher without LeBeau - 7

Dick LeBeau is an innovator, a HoF coach, and the BEST defensive mind of our time bar none.

But to make this statement that Bill Cowher didn't maintain or emphasize toughness in his absence is so ridiculous I can't even take it seriously. I'm not even sure how you convinced yourself that you have any supporting evidence when even taken out of context (disregarding injuries, turnovers, offensive performance, clock control, etc) it still doesn't support your belief whatsoever.

TheReverend
10-27-2010, 10:32 PM
...And I even hate Bill Cowher.

TheReverend
10-27-2010, 10:42 PM
One other quick note:

The 1991 Chuck Noll Steelers were 22nd on defense and 7-9

The 1992 Bill Cowher Steelers were 13th on defense and 11-5

The 1993 Bill Cowher Steelers were 3rd on defense and 9-7

The 1994 Bill Cowher Steelers were 2nd on defense and 12-4

All of this BEFORE LeBeau became defensive coordinator...

Drek
10-28-2010, 01:31 AM
Modern Hall of Fame Defensive Minded Coaches and their ave ranking:

Jeff Fischer - 16
Bill Belicheck - 14
Tony Dungy - 14
Bill Cowher - 6

And, just for your absurd point:

Bill Cowher without LeBeau - 7


So you agree that without LeBeau Cowher's defenses have been worse than with him? Great. Nice to have that settled.

You also cherry picked just yards allowed, ignoring the real measure of defensive toughness, points. Why not run the numbers on that and see how Cowher stacks up with/without LeBeau? Here's a hint: not nearly as well.

And you do realize that cherry picking Noll's last year followed by Cowher's first couple seasons, when in '91 Noll had the team ranked 3rd in points and 1st in yardage (with Bubby Brister and Merril Hoge as his leading passer and rusher), is far worse than looking at the several year window in which a consistently elite Steelers D with LeBeau then turned into an up and down unit that vacillated between good and middle of the road right?

I'm not saying that Cowher doesn't promote a tough mindset on his clubs. I'm just pointing out that the hallmark of that "Steelers toughness" has in recent years more directly coincided with LeBeau's tenure there than Cowher's. That when LeBeau departed for his little sojourn in head coaching Cowher's clubs did not consistently maintain that same level of execution. Also that upon LeBeau's return it almost instantly came back to Pittsburgh with him.

Maybe its completely unrelated. But damn if that sure isn't a hell of a lot of coincidences.

Rohirrim
10-28-2010, 08:53 AM
If there is a key concern to be taken from the Raider game it is contained in the essence of this quote.

The situation snowballed out of hand so fast that it took on a life of it's own. It was like the perfect storm hit. The worrisome part is the coaching staff had no clue on how to break the spell. The team could not regroup. I hope Josh reflects on that part of it and I bet he will because he has shown he is a very detailed thinker. Josh will be a better coach because of this painful (for all of us) lesion.

Right now, I'm reading the Memoirs of Ulysses S. Grant. That Machiavelli quote is right on. Just the perception of a rout, even when there's no truth to it, is enough to make men run. That's why Grant put people like Sherman and Sheridan in charge of his corps. If the **** started to come unhinged, he knew that they would run right into the worst spot on the battlefield and turn it around. Which is why I question Josh just standing on the sidelines the entire game looking like a duck that had been hit in the head (to quote Lincoln).

Obushma
10-28-2010, 02:01 PM
Is he bringing Dick LeBeau with him? No? Then don't expect the team to get any tougher.


Nope, I'd go and get this guy...

Kyle Whittingham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyle_Whittingham)

http://espn.go.com/blog/ncfnation/post/_/id/30969/wheres-the-love-for-utah
the defense is ranked in the top 10 in the nation in total defense, rushing defense, pass defense, third-down defense and opponent first downs along with scoring defense.

This guy is gonna be a great NFL DC someday, we should make him ours.

TheReverend
10-28-2010, 03:21 PM
So you agree that without LeBeau Cowher's defenses have been worse than with him? Great. Nice to have that settled.

You also cherry picked just yards allowed, ignoring the real measure of defensive toughness, points. Why not run the numbers on that and see how Cowher stacks up with/without LeBeau? Here's a hint: not nearly as well.

And you do realize that cherry picking Noll's last year followed by Cowher's first couple seasons, when in '91 Noll had the team ranked 3rd in points and 1st in yardage (with Bubby Brister and Merril Hoge as his leading passer and rusher), is far worse than looking at the several year window in which a consistently elite Steelers D with LeBeau then turned into an up and down unit that vacillated between good and middle of the road right?

I'm not saying that Cowher doesn't promote a tough mindset on his clubs. I'm just pointing out that the hallmark of that "Steelers toughness" has in recent years more directly coincided with LeBeau's tenure there than Cowher's. That when LeBeau departed for his little sojourn in head coaching Cowher's clubs did not consistently maintain that same level of execution. Also that upon LeBeau's return it almost instantly came back to Pittsburgh with him.

Maybe its completely unrelated. But damn if that sure isn't a hell of a lot of coincidences.

Yes, I "cherry picked" the stat that defenses are ****ing ranked by the National Football League. YOU CAUGHT ME BRO.

And you're right. I'm sure former NFL linebackers don't preach toughness, especially ones that And I'm sure the Rooney's hired him because he didn't bring that tough Steeler brand of football to the table. And I'm sure Cowher didn't hire Lebeau to his staff for that same reason and promote him to DC eventually.

Yes, every team would be BETTER with an extra Hall of Fame coach... especially the greatest defensive mind in the modern NFL, but this is probably the most absurd statement you've made in a long line of absurd ones and I IMPLORE YOU to take this to anyone close to the NFL. PM your Bill Cowher doesn't emphasize toughness to Mediator. Mail it in to any sports journalist that's ever talked to him. Call NFL radio. Post it up on a Steelers board.

They will all laugh at you. There is literally ZERO supporting evidence.

baja
10-28-2010, 03:36 PM
PM your Bill Cowher doesn't emphasize toughness to Mediator. Mail it in to any sports journalist that's ever talked to him. Call NFL radio. Post it up on a Steelers board.

Well he did have a gay guy for his quarterback and he did kiss him on the lips after a good play so I see the tough guy model part there alright.



Drek,

Do you ever get the feeling that after one of these chest beating posts by rev that he runs over to his full length mirror flexes his biceps and gives each one a tender kiss and smiles admiringly at himself while whispering you bad, you great, you are God's gift.

TheReverend
10-28-2010, 03:44 PM
Well he did have a gay guy for his quarterback and he did kiss him on the lips after a good play so I see the tough guy model part there alright.



Drek,

Do you ever get the feeling that after one of these chest beating posts by rev that he runs over to his full length mirror flexes his biceps and gives each one a tender kiss and smiles admiringly at himself while whispering you bad, you great, you are God's gift.

REALLY disturbing that you take the time to fantasize about me doing things like this...

baja
10-28-2010, 03:48 PM
REALLY disturbing that you take the time to fantasize about me doing things like this...


Not to worry my imagination provides me with great humor constantly. It was the picture you posted of yourself that provided the basic layout. Wish I could draw it for you it's really funny. ;D

TheReverend
10-28-2010, 03:51 PM
Not to worry my imagination provides me with great humor constantly. It was the picture you posted of yourself that provided the basic layout. Wish I could draw it for you it's really funny. ;D

And you even took the time to edit in more details to your story...

Since you add no value to board and only troll tropics and threads from their original discussion and the sheer volume of how seriously disturbing this is, you'll be the first and only person on my ignore list.

Congratulations?

baja
10-28-2010, 03:54 PM
If it were a painting I would call it "Warren Beatty on Warren Beatty"

baja
10-28-2010, 03:56 PM
And you even took the time to edit in more details to your story...

Since you add no value to board and only troll tropics and threads from their original discussion and the sheer volume of how seriously disturbing this is, you'll be the first and only person on my ignore list.

Congratulations?

That is a huge honor, all the others that you randomly attack will be envious.

Chris
10-28-2010, 04:02 PM
If it were a painting I would call it "Warren Beatty on Warren Beatty"

http://www.mamapop.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/6a00d8341c5d9653ef01287757825a970c.jpg

footstepsfrom#27
10-29-2010, 01:38 AM
It's time to ask serious quesions about Pat Bowlen's health. I noted in passing in here a few weeks ago that a team employee, albeit merely a tour guide at Invesco, but none-the-less one who has been with the team for many years in various roles...said point blank to myself and about 15 other people touring Invesco back in July that Bowlen DOES have Alzheimers and suffers from memory loss already. I found this amazing coming from a team employee and speculated at the time that it seemed utterly bizarre that a group of fans on a stadium tour would hear this stated point blank by a team employee. I have no idea what to make of it, but it's worth asking the question in light of the last year's events.

HAT
10-29-2010, 02:44 AM
It's time to ask serious quesions about Pat Bowlen's health. I noted in passing in here a few weeks ago that a team employee, albeit merely a tour guide at Invesco, but none-the-less one who has been with the team for many years in various roles...said point blank to myself and about 15 other people touring Invesco back in July that Bowlen DOES have Alzheimers and suffers from memory loss already. I found this amazing coming from a team employee and speculated at the time that it seemed utterly bizarre that a group of fans on a stadium tour would hear this stated point blank by a team employee. I have no idea what to make of it, but it's worth asking the question in light of the last year's events.

I heard that same **** on the light rail.....You can't ever go wrong with light rail or stadium tour guides.

Plus...He (PB) was probably just being gutless and drunk that night and said tour guide just took a pay cut because PB is broke.

Awesome.

Taco John
10-29-2010, 02:50 AM
http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/5094/tour20guide.jpg

"...And over to your left, ladies and gentlemen - wave to Mister Pat Bowlen... There he is.

By the way, interesting fact about Mr. Bowlen -"

ZONA
10-29-2010, 04:11 AM
http://www.bostonfoodandwhine.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/fluff01.jpg

Drek
10-29-2010, 05:19 AM
Yes, I "cherry picked" the stat that defenses are ****ing ranked by the National Football League. YOU CAUGHT ME BRO.


Honest Rev, I've never seen a response that long that completely fails to get the point.

1. I said you cherry picked by clipping off Noll's record at just his last year, ignoring the elite defense he had just the year before. Why didn't your list of Noll/Cowher defensive performance include '93? You picked a very narrow window that supported your argument while the immediate outlier did not, so you clipped it off. That is the cherry picking.

2. I never said that Cowher didn't preach toughness in his teams. McDaniels preaches toughness, how has that worked out so far for us? We didn't look real tough on Sunday. The reason people view the Steelers as tough over the decades is how their defense played. The long term quality of their defense seems much more tied to LeBeau than Cowher, as historically LeBeau's tenure with the Steelers has seen a defense in the top 5 in both defensive yardage and defensive scoring (the real hallmark of a tough team).

Do you even finish reading other people's posts or do you just grab a few excerpts to rant on in your constant effort to act like the smartest guy in the room? Because otherwise I don't see how I can post this:

I'm not saying that Cowher doesn't promote a tough mindset on his clubs. I'm just pointing out that the hallmark of that "Steelers toughness" has in recent years more directly coincided with LeBeau's tenure there than Cowher's.

And somehow you get this:

And you're right. I'm sure former NFL linebackers don't preach toughness, especially ones that And I'm sure the Rooney's hired him because he didn't bring that tough Steeler brand of football to the table. And I'm sure Cowher didn't hire Lebeau to his staff for that same reason and promote him to DC eventually.

Yes, every team would be BETTER with an extra Hall of Fame coach... especially the greatest defensive mind in the modern NFL, but this is probably the most absurd statement you've made in a long line of absurd ones and I IMPLORE YOU to take this to anyone close to the NFL. PM your Bill Cowher doesn't emphasize toughness to Mediator. Mail it in to any sports journalist that's ever talked to him. Call NFL radio. Post it up on a Steelers board.

This is seriously the equivalent of someone saying "pumpkin pie is a symbol of Americana but I think apple pie better exemplifies it" and you screaming back "WHAT! PUMPKIN PIE IS AMERICA! YOU'RE A ****ING COMMUNIST. SAYING PUMPKIN PIE ISN'T AMERICA! GO TELL ABE LINCOLN ITS NOT AMERICAN, HE'LL BEAT YOU WITH HIS CANE YOU SOCIALIST DOUCHE!"

Get the break in logical thought you stepped into now?

Mountain Bronco
10-29-2010, 10:29 AM
Just what is it I need to "get over"

The part of your post I quoted suggests Shanny left Denver for a better offer I was just setting the record straight. He 'left' denver because Bowlen could no longer afford his expensive failures.

But you are right about one thing Snyder can afford Shanny's expensive failures.

He didn't leave denver, he was canned, what the **** is this revisionist history???

He was clearly shocked to be canned as well.


Seriously people???

baja
10-29-2010, 10:43 AM
He didn't leave denver, he was canned, what the **** is this revisionist history???

He was clearly shocked to be canned as well.


Seriously people???

Ah you do see that is what I am saying right?

MaloCS
10-29-2010, 11:09 AM
Maybe its completely unrelated. But damn if that sure isn't a hell of a lot of coincidences.

I like your posts. There's an old saying that goes... "Where there's smoke there's fire." Your post and logic reinforce that simple concept but unfortunately, some people have a hard time ALLOWING themselves to see the forest through the trees. Especially modern day fans that put way too much emphasis on meaningless statistics.

MaloCS
10-29-2010, 11:16 AM
Do you even finish reading other people's posts or do you just grab a few excerpts to rant on in your constant effort to act like the smartest guy in the room?

I've found that the vast majority of people on internet forums DO NOT read the posts in their entirety. They may skim the text but they DO NOT read and try to comprehend what the writer is saying.

It's obvious, for someone that can formulate abstract thought, what it is you're saying. For the people that can't formulate abstract thought or are just too damn lazy to take the time to try, the words you lay down go right over their heads. It's also very easy to determine the individuals that operate this way; just look at sentence structure and spelling.

I've learned a long time ago to never take anyone seriously that doesn't have the self discipline and pride to make sure the texts they write are formatted properly and spelled correctly. When I come across a post that has gratuitous misspellings and common grammatical errors I just stop reading. For example, the difference between "you're" and "your"; if one can't get this correct then one has no business trying to compose a coherent passage. That person's writing privileges should be revoked.

TheReverend
10-29-2010, 12:12 PM
Honest Rev, I've never seen a response that long that completely fails to get the point.

You picked a very narrow window that supported your argument while the immediate outlier did not, so you clipped it off. That is the cherry picking.

:rofl:

Ummm I did include 93?

I think you might mean 90 where Noll had Pitt ranked #1 on D. Which is funny considering you preaching narrow windows and "outliers".... here's Noll's last four years in Pitt:

88- 28th (Bottom of the NFL-Pre expansion remember)
89- 19th
90- 1
91- 22nd

But yeah... I chose the "outlier" by using 91. :rofl:

Here's how COWHER turned it around immediately PRE promoting LeBeau to his DC:

92- 13th
93- 3rd
94- 2nd

See? You have zero point... You claim he inherited toughness from a Noll team that was consistently performing at the bottom of the league. Bill Cowher without Dick LeBeau has an average ranking of 7th on defense and 8th in scoring.

2. I never said that Cowher didn't preach toughness in his teams. McDaniels preaches toughness, how has that worked out so far for us? We didn't look real tough on Sunday. The reason people view the Steelers as tough over the decades is how their defense played. The long term quality of their defense seems much more tied to LeBeau than Cowher, as historically LeBeau's tenure with the Steelers has seen a defense in the top 5 in both defensive yardage and defensive scoring (the real hallmark of a tough team).

Do you even finish reading other people's posts or do you just grab a few excerpts to rant on in your constant effort to act like the smartest guy in the room? Because otherwise I don't see how I can post this:



And somehow you get this:



This is seriously the equivalent of someone saying "pumpkin pie is a symbol of Americana but I think apple pie better exemplifies it" and you screaming back "WHAT! PUMPKIN PIE IS AMERICA! YOU'RE A ****ING COMMUNIST. SAYING PUMPKIN PIE ISN'T AMERICA! GO TELL ABE LINCOLN ITS NOT AMERICAN, HE'LL BEAT YOU WITH HIS CANE YOU SOCIALIST DOUCHE!"

Get the break in logical thought you stepped into now?

Because you want to whine about semantics without putting up any evidence to support your claims. Simply put, you continue to fail to admit that your theory has zero basis in reality.

Rock Chalk
10-29-2010, 12:52 PM
I agree with this. When he's got someone forcing him to work with talent like Hillis instead of allowing him to ship it off for others to enjoy, he'll do a lot better.

Hillis might not be the sharpest tool in the drawer, but he's clearly got talent to work with.

When his vagina isn't injured.

kamakazi_kal
10-29-2010, 01:40 PM
When his vagina isn't injured.

it's less injured then Moreno's.

Rock Chalk
10-29-2010, 01:43 PM
it's less injured then Moreno's.

Moreno played in a full season.

Hillis has yet to do that.

kamakazi_kal
10-29-2010, 01:49 PM
Moreno played in a full season.

Hillis has yet to do that.


Well when that first round pick scores more touchdowns then that castoff you will have a better comeback .... i guess.

Rock Chalk
10-29-2010, 01:52 PM
Well when that first round pick scores more touchdowns then that castoff you will have a better comeback .... i guess.

Moreno scores TDs just fine.

In fact, Moreno has 13 career Touchdowns in 20 games to Peyton Hillis' 13 career TDs in 33 games.

Try again **** face.

Edit: And if you are comparing this year, Moreno 4 TDs in 4 games play. Hillis 5 TDs in 7 games played.

Moreno averages more TDs per game than Hillis THIS year.

TheReverend
10-29-2010, 02:01 PM
Moreno scores TDs just fine.

In fact, Moreno has 13 career Touchdowns in 20 games to Peyton Hillis' 13 career TDs in 33 games.

Try again **** face.

Edit: And if you are comparing this year, Moreno 4 TDs in 4 games play. Hillis 5 TDs in 7 games played.

Moreno averages more TDs per game than Hillis THIS year.

Well played, but I wouldn't have done your edit. It's completely counterproductive. His original statement was saying Moreno has a bigger hurt vagina remember? Your edit supports his point.

Rock Chalk
10-29-2010, 02:10 PM
Well played, but I wouldn't have done your edit. It's completely counterproductive. His original statement was saying Moreno has a bigger hurt vagina remember? Your edit supports his point.

No it doesnt, this year Moreno got hurt but Hillis has never finished a full season and Moreno has.

SouthStndJunkie
10-29-2010, 02:26 PM
Moreno scores TDs just fine.

In fact, Moreno has 13 career Touchdowns in 20 games to Peyton Hillis' 13 career TDs in 33 games.

Try again **** face.

Edit: And if you are comparing this year, Moreno 4 TDs in 4 games play. Hillis 5 TDs in 7 games played.

Moreno averages more TDs per game than Hillis THIS year.

A better barometer would be TDs per touches (rushing and receiving).

Knowshon has 348 career touches (312 rushing and 36 receiving) and 13 TDs.

That equals a TD every 26.8 touches.

Peyton Hillis has 230 career touches (185 rushing and 45 receiving) and 13 TDs.

That equals a TD every 17.7 touches.

Also....Peyton Hillis has 6 TDs this year, not 5 (5 rushing and 1 receiving).

cousinal11
10-29-2010, 02:46 PM
Hillis got hurt making an amazing catch if I recall correctly and missed a bunch of those games. Moreno has gotten hurt in practice more than once, no? But, whatever.

bendog
10-29-2010, 02:50 PM
Well, chalk's making the pt that Moreno's a failure for the 11th overall pick if his comparison is to Hillis.

Ray Finkle
10-29-2010, 03:01 PM
Well, chalk's making the pt that Moreno's a failure for the 11th overall pick if his comparison is to Hillis.

Maybin was the 11th....

Popps
10-29-2010, 03:15 PM
Hillis got hurt making an amazing catch if I recall correctly and missed a bunch of those games. Moreno has gotten hurt in practice more than once, no? But, whatever.

Oh, do you get extra TDs added to your stats for getting hurt making an "amazing" catch?

Now it matters HOW you got hurt?

Rock Chalk
10-29-2010, 07:36 PM
Hillis got hurt making an amazing catch if I recall correctly and missed a bunch of those games. Moreno has gotten hurt in practice more than once, no? But, whatever.

WTF has that do do with anything?

Missing games is missing games. Whether you get a leg broke in a game or strain your vagina during practice, end result = same.

Rock Chalk
10-29-2010, 07:38 PM
Well, chalk's making the pt that Moreno's a failure for the 11th overall pick if his comparison is to Hillis.

No, I wasnt making a comparison to Hillis.

I was just responding to some other douche nozzle.

IN 20 games played, Moreno has 13 TDs. Considering he is not the focal point of this offense and NO RB would be, that's not bad though.