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ZachKC
10-14-2010, 11:31 PM
Champ Bailey has ceded the floor

A new wave of CBs -- Jammer, Flowers and even Cromartie -- are emerging as elite

Joyner By KC Joyner



It was 29 years ago this week that the NFL saw one of the most notable regular-season games in league history. Bill Walsh's San Francisco 49ers, a team that had won 10 games in the previous three seasons combined, were hosting a Dallas Cowboys squad that had played in back-to-back conference championship games the previous two years.

Very few -- if any -- experts gave San Francisco a chance at winning the game, but they did more than post a victory. Their 45-14 shellacking of the Cowboys proved to Walsh's players that they were capable of beating any team in the league.

It also stands out because it was one of the quietest changing-of-the-guard moments in league history; no one saw that this game was the launching pad for one of the most famed dynasties in football history.

It comes to mind now because we might be seeing a similar quiet changing of the guard this season in the realm of AFC Pro Bowl cornerbacks. That may come as a surprise, since last year's AFC Pro Bowl cornerback trio -- Darrelle Revis, Nnamdi Asomugha and Champ Bailey -- could lay a claim to being maybe the most talented coverage triumvirate ever.

As true as that last statement might be when referring to the whole of their careers, there are multiple metric reasons that show these three aren't playing to the caliber of their reputations. In addition, there are three other AFC cornerbacks whose high level of performance could end up vaulting them over any one, or even all, of the aforementioned all-stars.

Let's begin by looking at Bailey. He was recently in the news because his contract-extension talks with the Broncos hit a standstill. The two sides were said to be close to making a deal before the Broncos stepped back and decided to resume talks later.

Bailey has said he is disappointed in the team for doing this, but the Broncos have every right to be just as disappointed in his play this year. Bailey has given up 199 yards on the 21 passes thrown his way through five games. That equates to a 9.5 yards-per-attempt (YPA) mark. To put that into perspective, a YPA of 9 or more yards at season's end will normally place a player in the bottom one-third of the league in that category.

In the AFC West, Asomugha and Bailey are giving way to Flowers and Jammer.

This is probably why Denver's brain trust is holding back on the long-term extension; they want to see if this is an anomaly or the beginning of the downside of his career.

Asomugha is known as a player who isn't thrown at (his 25 targets in 2009 set the target qualifying floor for cornerbacks), but his problem is that his YPA on those aerials is quite high. Over the past 21 games, Asomugha has given up 339 yards on 37 passes directed his way. That calculates to a 9.2 YPA, which is, as noted above, quite unacceptable.


Revis gets something of a pass because his hamstring injury is why his play is off the mark this year, but it is worth noting that if he doesn't get back to his 2009 form before season's end, he will have only notched one truly dominant year in four NFL campaigns. That is not to say he will not return to form in 2011, but rather to note that Revis Island hasn't always been a barren stretch of land for opposing offenses.

Now let's move onto the cornerbacks who look to be ready to dethrone these coverage kings.

Let's start with Brandon Flowers. His 2010 coverage numbers have been simply phenomenal thus far. Flowers has been targeted 31 times and has allowed only 81 yards on those throws. That equals a ridiculously low 2.6 YPA, a number that is a full yard less than the eye-popping 3.6 YPA Revis posted last year. If he maintains anything close to this pace for the rest of the season, he should be a front-runner for both the Pro Bowl and All-Pro awards.

Next up is Quentin Jammer. Jammer isn't typically thought of as an elite cornerback, but he was one of only nine cornerbacks to finish in the top 30 in YPA in both 2008 and 2009. His 5.2 YPA thus far in 2010 is better than he posted in either of those two seasons, so he looks to be on pace to equal or better his ranking this year.

Last up is Antonio Cromartie. The reason he makes this list is that he has taken Revis' place as the crux of the Jets' defense. Rex Ryan funnels as many passes as he can through his best cornerback, and if that player can't hold up, Ryan's defense can collapse.

Cromartie's 7.2 YPA certainly is a drop-off from Revis' 3.6 total last season, but it has been achieved on 47 targets. Prorate that over a 16-game season and it would equal 150 targets. To put that into perspective, the highest target total any cornerback saw in 2009 was 102.

Cromartie is on pace to top that mark by about 50 percent, yet his YPA is still holding up. That is a more than adequate reason to consider him a strong contender for a Pro Bowl nomination.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/columns/story?columnist=joyner_kc&id=5681251&action=upsell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl %2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fcolumnist%3djoyner_ kc%26id%3d5681251

BroncoDoug
10-14-2010, 11:51 PM
Was here a sell on drugs this week or something?

ZachKC
10-14-2010, 11:52 PM
Was here a sell on drugs this week or something?

What?

BlaK-Argentina
10-14-2010, 11:53 PM
Champ is playing at an All-Pro level, yet again.

UberBroncoMan
10-14-2010, 11:56 PM
By KC Joyner

:pity:

Rulon Velvet Jones
10-14-2010, 11:59 PM
As though anyone would prefer to have Flowers or Jammer on their team instead of Asomugha or Bailey.

Get out of here with that Flowers-Revis mess. What a crock of crap.

ZachKC
10-15-2010, 12:02 AM
As though anyone would prefer to have Flowers or Jammer on their team instead of Asomugha or Bailey.

Get out of here with that Flowers-Revis mess. What a crock of crap.

Bailey? Absolutely. A young up and coming talent compared to Bailey who is starting to decline?

Funny you were talking about building a franchise in another thread. Anyone building a franchise wouldn't hesitate a second before choosing Flowers over Bailey.

Zoobie
10-15-2010, 12:06 AM
My eyes>Stats. Having said that, I think Flowers is becoming a phenomenal corner.

ZachKC
10-15-2010, 12:08 AM
My eyes>Stats. Having said that, I think Flowers is becoming a phenomenal corner.

I have absolutely nothing bad to say about Bailey...awesome guy...awesome player. I do think he is losing a step or two.

broncocalijohn
10-15-2010, 12:10 AM
What is great about Brandon Flowers is that not only does he play great defense but his solo album with the hit Crossfire is burning up the charts.

ZachKC
10-15-2010, 12:12 AM
What is great about Brandon Flowers is that not only does he play great defense but his solo album with the hit Crossfire is burning up the charts.

Wah?

Hahaha,

http://idolator.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/brandon-flowers.jpg

Los Broncos
10-15-2010, 12:16 AM
So Champ will be traded most likely?

OBF1
10-15-2010, 12:31 AM
This message is hidden because ZachKC is on your ignore list.

ZachKC
10-15-2010, 12:35 AM
This message is hidden because ZachKC is on your ignore list.

Ha, some can dish it out but not take it.

Champagne Powder
10-15-2010, 12:46 AM
I have absolutely nothing bad to say about Bailey...awesome guy...awesome player. I do think he is losing a step or two.

Obviously you do have something bad to say.

Why don't you stand firm on one point rather than being wishy washy?

ZachKC
10-15-2010, 12:47 AM
Obviously you do have something bad to say.

Why don't you stand firm on one point rather than being wishy washy?

I don't see it as a criticism. Just seems like reality. The guy is getting older.

footstepsfrom#27
10-15-2010, 01:11 AM
Bailey? Absolutely. A young up and coming talent compared to Bailey who is starting to decline?

Funny you were talking about building a franchise in another thread. Anyone building a franchise wouldn't hesitate a second before choosing Flowers over Bailey.
Hogwash.

Maybe because of age alone, but Champ is and has been both THE elite CB in the game and a legitimate HOF player. It remains to be seen what any of these other dudes are and whether they are flash in the pan types or not, and I suspect playing behind Denver's front 7 neither would impress like Bailey does.

footstepsfrom#27
10-15-2010, 01:13 AM
I don't see it as a criticism. Just seems like reality. The guy is getting older.
I've been hearing that for several years...32 is not old for an NFL CB...it's a player's prime in fact.

Champagne Powder
10-15-2010, 01:13 AM
I don't see it as a criticism. Just seems like reality. The guy is getting older.

A guy with so called eroding skills should be criticized.

It's wrong to just assume a player is losing just going solely off his DOB. You have to give me more than he's old.

K.C. Joyner may have a valid point, but I still think Bailey has shown to be worthy of being a top 5-7 cornerback in football.

Going by McDaniels' defensive philosophy, our defensive backs are being asked to eliminate all big passing plays. McDaniels wants to force opponents into a drive where they have to convert multiple set of downs in order to score and have to rely on short-to-intermediate pass completions to do so.

Bailey last year did not give up a touchdown reception and our pass defense only allowed one 100-yard receiver the whole season.

It's no secret that Bailey will give up a first down reception here and there, but his job is not to blanket and shutdown receivers in our scheme. He's being asked to eliminate the big passing play at all costs, which makes him more vulnerable to surrendering a 15-yard pass at times.

But ask Reggie Wayne and Anquan Boldin if they had it easy going against Champ this year. I still think he is playing exceptionally well despite the article you posted.

ZachKC
10-15-2010, 01:30 AM
K.C. Joyner may have a valid point, but I still think Bailey has shown to be worthy of being a top 5-7 cornerback in football.



I don't disagree.

Zoobie
10-15-2010, 02:25 AM
It's all relative honestly. Revis plays on one of the best defenses in the NFL, if he didn't I doubt he'd be getting the hype(overhype) that he does. Champ has a much larger body of work, and plays at an elite level regardless of the talent around him. Again, I hate seeing stupid stats like this because you have no clue what other factors were at play. When they say he was a target, what do they mean? Are we talking in 1v1 man coverage? Was he making up for someone else by covering their zone for them, only to be a step behind? Is that his fault? There is way too much that goes into it. I like to see players pass the eye test, and one great season isn't enough for me to crown Revis as some godsend to the defensive backfield. Of course, all we'll hear all year is how his hammy hurts as he gets burned by a 35 year old man.

Blueflame
10-15-2010, 03:13 AM
The only decent team the Chefs have beaten is the Chargers. The Raiders did that too. Just sayin'.

You can't seriously be bragging about CB play in wins over the Browns and 9'ers, can you?

The Joker
10-15-2010, 03:23 AM
I like Flowers, he's been a very good player for a while now.

He has the potential to be elite, but you can't crown him based on what we've seen so far this year. The rain shut down the Charger offense, and the 49ers and Browns passing games are pathetic. Clearly Flowers had a good day against Indy, and if he keeps consistently playing like that against that quality of opposition he'll get his dues and rightfully so.

The inclusion of Jammer in this article is downright bizarre btw. He's been a very good CB for a long time, but he's 31 now and it's hard to imagine he's going to all of a sudden take a massive leap forward and become an elite player in the league.

As for Cromartie, he's always had insane talent. He just has holes in his game as well and will get beaten as often as he makes the big play. The Jets defense is perfect for him, he'll still give up some plays but that front seven will give him plenty of chance to make more than enough to compensate.

Bob's your Information Minister
10-15-2010, 03:46 AM
Flowers was near the top of the league in passes defensed and stop rate a year ago.

He's a ****ing stud.

And he tackles incredibly well. Did I mention he had 5 picks last season with NO pass rush?

By the way, the 49ers have the 11th ranked passing attack, hardly dog****.

eddie mac
10-15-2010, 03:53 AM
I have absolutely nothing bad to say about Bailey...awesome guy...awesome player. I do think he is losing a step or two.

Maybe just maybe he has to cover WR a little longer than your awesome duo. People seem to forget that the Broncos pass rush is officially in the tank with Doom on the sidelines and now Ayers.

Jammer seems to find it a little easier to cover with Phillips putting opposing QB's on their ass, same for Cromartie with Ellis and Taylor helping him out and Hali dominating for KC. Broncos have 5 total sacks in the season and god knows how far behind the league they are with total QB pressures. Their DB's should be applauded for keeping passing attacks at an average level.

See the problem for me with some analysts is that they never look at the bigger picture.

BTW this isn't a knock on Carr or Flowers who IMO are stars of the future and maybe even now in this league.

Blueflame
10-15-2010, 04:10 AM
Flowers was near the top of the league in passes defensed and stop rate a year ago.

He's a ****ing stud.

And he tackles incredibly well. Did I mention he had 5 picks last season with NO pass rush?

By the way, the 49ers have the 11th ranked passing attack, hardly dog****.

*cough*... The 9'ers are 0-5 and the Browns are 1-4... *cough*

fontaine
10-15-2010, 04:11 AM
I have absolutely nothing bad to say about Bailey...awesome guy...awesome player. I do think he is losing a step or two.

Yes he's lost his explosiveness because he was playing on one bad heel/ankle.

But don't let the injury facts get in your way.

Baba Booey
10-15-2010, 04:13 AM
Flowers is very good but Jammer? The guy is only a year younger than Champ.

Article is horse hair.

Drek
10-15-2010, 04:13 AM
This has got to be one of the stupidest non-bleacher report articles I've seen in a while. Its like someone sat down, looked at a list of YPA regardless of any actual perspective, and then wrote an article out of it.

Quentin Jammer is 31 years old, all of one year younger than Champ and two years older than Asomugha. How the hell is he "new guard".

This is why analyzing football based entirely on stats is completely useless, and outright defines "small sample size". Just slopping stat work.

Bob's your Information Minister
10-15-2010, 04:14 AM
*cough*... The 9'ers are 0-5 and the Browns are 1-4... *cough*

Why is that relevant to the discussion?

Blueflame
10-15-2010, 04:43 AM
Why is that relevant to the discussion?

You consider it "irrelevant" that two of the four teams your Cheffies have played are in sole and unchallenged ownership of their respective division cellars? Interesting.

Bob's your Information Minister
10-15-2010, 05:11 AM
You consider it "irrelevant" that two of the four teams your Cheffies have played are in sole and unchallenged ownership of their respective division cellars? Interesting.

It's irrelevant to this discussion, yes.

Logic, it works wonders!

kappys
10-15-2010, 05:27 AM
Flowers is a great corner, and based on youth he is probably the better long term investment over Bailey, but Jammer and Cromartie are no where close to Flowers and Champ.

BroncosSR
10-15-2010, 06:56 AM
I love champ and he's been a beast for us the past few years but his skills are on the decline. I hope they resign him, although I think at $10 mill or above per year is too much. I figure him to be an $8 mil CB right now...

The MVPlaya
10-15-2010, 07:06 AM
I found a pic of Bob getting slapped.

http://i53.tinypic.com/231mk2.gif

Garcia Bronco
10-15-2010, 07:27 AM
Flowers is one of the best. He's a Hokie. :)

Beantown Bronco
10-15-2010, 07:28 AM
What is great about Brandon Flowers is that not only does he play great defense but his solo album with the hit Crossfire is burning up the charts.

Last time Flowers talked to Champ about who was better, he randomly broke into song about the last time he thought Champ was better:

<object style="height: 390px; width: 640px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/xjKyW71sihg?version=3"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xjKyW71sihg?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="390"></object>

Dagmar
10-15-2010, 07:36 AM
Ha, some can dish it out but not take it.

Oh, he'll waste minutes of his life neg repping you, don't worry.

Steve Prefontaine
10-15-2010, 07:42 AM
flowers has been impressive. eye test, stats, whatever...he's going to be an annoyance for denver for years to come.

Inkana7
10-15-2010, 07:57 AM
Noted Wide Receivers Flowers has covered this season:

Reggie Wayne (who had 6 rec, 75 yards)

aaaaannndd... That's about it.

Inkana7
10-15-2010, 07:59 AM
Flowers was near the top of the league in passes defensed and stop rate a year ago.

He's a ****ing stud.

And he tackles incredibly well. Did I mention he had 5 picks last season with NO pass rush?

By the way, the 49ers have the 11th ranked passing attack, hardly dog****.

Oh yes, that vaunted 49ers Aerial attack behind noted NFL superstar Alex Smith.

Rascal
10-15-2010, 08:02 AM
I agree with Flowers being one of the best in the league and given his age he will stay that way for a while. Champ is still top 5-7 CB in the league, but you can't deny he has lost a step. But Joyner is insane for listing Jammer and Cromartie.

It would be nice if we could actually build a defense to put pressure on QB and utilize our DB skills better.

gyldenlove
10-15-2010, 08:30 AM
Flowers was near the top of the league in passes defensed and stop rate a year ago.

He's a ****ing stud.

And he tackles incredibly well. Did I mention he had 5 picks last season with NO pass rush?

By the way, the 49ers have the 11th ranked passing attack, hardly dog****.

So because he has gone against a pass offense that is almost in the top 10 he is good? Call me again when he has gone against a good team.

ColoradoDarin
10-15-2010, 08:32 AM
Oh yes, that vaunted 49ers Aerial attack behind noted NFL superstar Alex Smith.

And that all their passing O runs through their TE....

gyldenlove
10-15-2010, 08:33 AM
Noted Wide Receivers Flowers has covered this season:

Reggie Wayne (who had 6 rec, 75 yards)

aaaaannndd... That's about it.

Wasn't he the guy that Champ held to 4 catches? I seem to remember something like that.

Honestly, this article is a classic case of the rate fallacy. If a starting CB all year gives up 1 catch for 20 yards, by this marker he would be the worst in the league, however will anyone here, even you KC fans, tell me that a CB who only gives up 1 catch in a season is anything but the best player in the game?

Br0nc0Buster
10-15-2010, 08:38 AM
Champ's lost a step?
thats news to me or anyone who has watched him play I would say

Flowers is good, but he isnt on Baileys level

It doesnt matter how old Champ is, 22, 32, 42... he is still shutting down his guys

just because someone is getting older does not mean their play MUST be declining

Bigdawg26
10-15-2010, 08:48 AM
Flowers kinda reminds me of Ken Lucas or Chris McClister (from baltimore)! They have one good year and suddenly there a shut down corner until an elite quarterback exposes them! And Jammer C'mon man!!!

Flex Gunmetal
10-15-2010, 09:03 AM
It's irrelevant to this discussion, yes.

Logic, it works wonders!

Posts: 23,291
Status: Chiefs fan
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e369/Stefangs/1-100.gif



Please find a life.

theAPAOps5
10-15-2010, 09:18 AM
No, he hasn't ceded the floor. Flowers is up and coming but Champ is still better, WAY better.

400HZ
10-15-2010, 09:24 AM
I actually like a lot of the analysis that Joyner does (taken in context), but I think you want a larger sample size before making any bold statements.

I expected Cromartie to have a relatively good year because ALL corners have good years under Rex Ryan. Lito Shepard had a good year last year. This year there are a bunch of rookies ahead of him on Minnesota's depth chart. I think Ryan does a better job than anyone in the league of figuring out what his player's strengths are and putting them in a position to maximize those skills. All we've seen of Cromartie this year is covering receivers downfield in tight coverage, which is what Cromartie excels at. Rex Ryan is an amazing coach.

PRBronco
10-15-2010, 09:25 AM
Trolling troll is trolling.

Peoples Champ
10-15-2010, 09:50 AM
I have absolutely nothing bad to say about Bailey...awesome guy...awesome player. I do think he is losing a step or two.


ya its called time, or age, but how he is still playing at his high level at this age, well.....its un explainable.

Rulon Velvet Jones
10-15-2010, 10:00 AM
The guy is getting older.

Kool-Aid Man Zach with breaking news, everyone - HUMAN BEINGS AGE!

dsmoot
10-15-2010, 11:30 AM
I am not saying that this is the time. How does everyone feel about Champs ability to make the transition to safety. His size worries me some but he is a great tackler. I would think his experience/savvy would translate to the smaller safety position and possibly help him generate more turnovers. I don't know the details of Rod Woodson's career but didn't he make the same move and stayed quite productive. I realize the safety position doesn't generate the salary top CB's get nor how Champ feels about his own current skill set. It appears over the past few years, his reaction time that allowed him see and respond to generate those incredible turnovers has diminished. I can't tell if that is his losing a step or a change in what he is being asked to do.

I think his leadership is very important on the defense. He still has the unfulfilled desire to win a Superbowl. I don't know if he is going to see it in Denver.

Zoobie
10-15-2010, 12:44 PM
I am not saying that this is the time. How does everyone feel about Champs ability to make the transition to safety. His size worries me some but he is a great tackler. I would think his experience/savvy would translate to the smaller safety position and possibly help him generate more turnovers. I don't know the details of Rod Woodson's career but didn't he make the same move and stayed quite productive. I realize the safety position doesn't generate the salary top CB's get nor how Champ feels about his own current skill set. It appears over the past few years, his reaction time that allowed him see and respond to generate those incredible turnovers has diminished. I can't tell if that is his losing a step or a change in what he is being asked to do.

I think his leadership is very important on the defense. He still has the unfulfilled desire to win a Superbowl. I don't know if he is going to see it in Denver.

He is still much too important as a corner to make the switch. Will he eventually make the switch? Yes, I think he's even said as much. With that said, until we have a better option(s) at CB, he will be staying put.

Hulamau
10-15-2010, 01:03 PM
I have absolutely nothing bad to say about Bailey...awesome guy...awesome player. I do think he is losing a step or two.

Mske sure and whisper that in Cassel's ear before we meet after the bye .. have him throw on Champ all day :)

BlaK-Argentina
10-15-2010, 01:08 PM
Ask Hasselbeck how much Champ's skills have faded. He went after him on two crucial plays and, of course, paid for it. (INT and turnover on downs in the redzone)

He's not getting as many turnovers (may have something to do with the scheme) but he's still as good a cover guy as any and a HELL of a tackler.

ZachKC
10-15-2010, 01:10 PM
It's irrelevant to this discussion, yes.

Logic, it works wonders!

Nobody takes a specific football discussion and dumbs it down like sassy.

You can be talking about offense vs defense stuff and she will bring up Super Bowl wins or some crap like that.

This is what it would sound like if the roles and teams were reversed between Sassy and I.

Zach: Wow, that Orton is playing some damn good football this year.

Sassy: And a losing record is all you have to show for it.

Durrr

ZachKC
10-15-2010, 01:11 PM
Trolling troll is trolling.

Pussy.

ZachKC
10-15-2010, 01:12 PM
Flowers kinda reminds me of Ken Lucas or Chris McClister (from baltimore)! They have one good year and suddenly there a shut down corner until an elite quarterback exposes them! And Jammer C'mon man!!!

Yea, if only Flowers had faced an elite QB this year...

Ya know. Like last weekend.

ZachKC
10-15-2010, 01:13 PM
Wasn't he the guy that Champ held to 4 catches? I seem to remember something like that.

Honestly, this article is a classic case of the rate fallacy. If a starting CB all year gives up 1 catch for 20 yards, by this marker he would be the worst in the league, however will anyone here, even you KC fans, tell me that a CB who only gives up 1 catch in a season is anything but the best player in the game?

Nobody would say that.

Because we have common sense.

Football isn't played in a vacuum where this would realistically happen.

Beantown Bronco
10-15-2010, 01:17 PM
Yea, if only Flowers had faced an elite QB this year...

Ya know. Like last weekend.

Yup, and who was Flowers covering?

If it was Reggie Wayne, then he gave up 6 receptions for 75 yards. Hardly the performance of a true elite corner.

ZachKC
10-15-2010, 01:19 PM
Yup, and who was Flowers covering?

If it was Reggie Wayne, then he gave up 6 receptions for 75 yards. Hardly the performance of a true elite corner.

This isn't pop warner defense. It isn't all that simple.

Flowers has given up 81 yards all year.

Beantown Bronco
10-15-2010, 01:24 PM
This isn't pop warner defense. It isn't all that simple.

Flowers has given up 81 yards all year.

Ohhh, but it is.

In Denver's game vs. Indy, Champ was on Wayne all day long every single play. Our best against your best. That's it.

KC didn't do that cause they knew he would've been toasted all day long. Instead they chose to have him covering TEs and the #2 and #3 WRs throughout the game. Sad.

ZachKC
10-15-2010, 01:27 PM
Ohhh, but it is.

In Denver's game vs. Indy, Champ was on Wayne all day long every single play. Our best against your best. That's it.

KC didn't do that cause they knew he would've been toasted all day long. Instead they chose to have him covering TEs and the #2 and #3 WRs throughout the game. Sad.

Who got toasted? I guess we will all have to bow to your simplistic view of defense. I guess we will just have to get by with the best CB in AFC West and the 3rd scoring defense in the league.

Manning = 0 TDs.

gyldenlove
10-15-2010, 01:30 PM
Nobody would say that.

Because we have common sense.

Football isn't played in a vacuum where this would realistically happen.

So you are happy citing 1 statistic as proof positive that Flowers is a top CB and Champ Bailey is not, yet you are not saying that that statistic is a good meassure of the quality of a CB.

I am going to type this slowly so you can follow me, if you base your observations on 1 statistic, you should believe in that stat, if you admit the stat is weaponsgrade bolognium it makes your argument seem so ... worthless.

PRBronco
10-15-2010, 02:17 PM
p***Y.

Hilarious! GTFO.

ZachKC
10-15-2010, 02:28 PM
So you are happy citing 1 statistic as proof positive that Flowers is a top CB and Champ Bailey is not, yet you are not saying that that statistic is a good meassure of the quality of a CB.

I am going to type this slowly so you can follow me, if you base your observations on 1 statistic, you should believe in that stat, if you admit the stat is weaponsgrade bolognium it makes your argument seem so ... worthless.

I am not saying Bailey is not a top CB.

I do just think you post is silly. You are building your post on a point that just isn't so. Nobody is stabbing at this stat in the dark and saying this is why Flowers is good. The guy has been playing good football and turning heads. He was a good player last year and has improved. The stats above are just an example of that.

I am saying something similar to praising a WR for getting 100 yards a game. Your response to that is "well if he goes in one game and gets a catch for 100 yards is he really that good?" You setting up some hypothetical situation doesn't make it apply to reality. There is a reason Flowers is because his body of work has been impressive. Your "If a starting CB all year gives up 1 catch for 20 yards blah blah" has nothing to do with anything.

Peoples Champ
10-15-2010, 02:31 PM
Kool-Aid Man Zach with breaking news, everyone - HUMAN BEINGS AGE!


Yes , this should end thread

Rulon Velvet Jones
10-15-2010, 02:32 PM
Brandon Lloyd > Jerry Rice

The numbers support it.

Blueflame
10-15-2010, 02:33 PM
Nobody takes a specific football discussion and dumbs it down like sassy.

You can be talking about offense vs defense stuff and she will bring up Super Bowl wins or some crap like that.

This is what it would sound like if the roles and teams were reversed between Sassy and I.

Zach: Wow, that Orton is playing some damn good football this year.

Sassy: And a losing record is all you have to show for it.

Durrr

Except Sassy hasn't posted in this thread.... and why you're taking a potshot at her is a mystery to me.

The point is that individual defensive stats can look better when the opposing offense is weak (and the 9ers and Browns are weak).

Br0nc0Buster
10-15-2010, 02:40 PM
If I did meth I prolly would think Flowers was better than Bailey as well

ZachKC
10-15-2010, 02:47 PM
Except Sassy hasn't posted in this thread.... and why you're taking a potshot at her is a mystery to me.

The point is that individual defensive stats can look better when the opposing offense is weak (and the 9ers and Browns are weak).

Ha, my bad.

I honestly get you girls with the silly avatars mixed up alot.

Rabb
10-15-2010, 03:05 PM
Ha, my bad.

I honestly get you girls with the silly avatars mixed up alot.

don't worry buddy, the more you are around girls the less awkward it will be for you

colonelbeef
10-15-2010, 03:06 PM
Antonio Cromartie is atrocious, negating the article somewhat.

bronco militia
10-15-2010, 03:20 PM
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs308.snc4/40743_110408445689398_100001607280071_86813_6994_n .jpg

gyldenlove
10-15-2010, 03:30 PM
I am not saying Bailey is not a top CB.

I do just think you post is silly. You are building your post on a point that just isn't so. Nobody is stabbing at this stat in the dark and saying this is why Flowers is good. The guy has been playing good football and turning heads. He was a good player last year and has improved. The stats above are just an example of that.

I am saying something similar to praising a WR for getting 100 yards a game. Your response to that is "well if he goes in one game and gets a catch for 100 yards is he really that good?" You setting up some hypothetical situation doesn't make it apply to reality. There is a reason Flowers is because his body of work has been impressive. Your "If a starting CB all year gives up 1 catch for 20 yards blah blah" has nothing to do with anything.

If you want to say he is playing well, then say that, don't post something based on 1 useless stat to claim that he is the top of the heap - fact is that all these rate stats are utterly useless. Who would you rather have passing the football Michael Robinson who leads the league in yards per attempt by a whopping 17 yards per attempt MORE than the 2nd leading player and has a season passer rating of 118 or Philip Rivers, who may be a turd, but is a very good QB. Robinson has a QB rating for the year that is 13 points higher than Rivers and throws a full 19 yards more than Rivers per attempt, oh and he only has 1 pass attempt.

I am building my post on the fact that the only stat provided in your original fluff piece is a rate, which is a useless stat.

My suggestion to you would be, if you want to post that Flowers is a good young CB, then find his real stats, find out who they were against, lets be honest even I could prevent Seneca Wallace from passing the ball to Mohammed Massaqoi and then write down that and build a cohesive post around that. Coming in here quoting some arbitrary rates posted by that gaping sphincter Joyner is not going to make a good case.

ZachKC
10-15-2010, 03:54 PM
If you want to say he is playing well, then say that, don't post something based on 1 useless stat to claim that he is the top of the heap - fact is that all these rate stats are utterly useless. Who would you rather have passing the football Michael Robinson who leads the league in yards per attempt by a whopping 17 yards per attempt MORE than the 2nd leading player and has a season passer rating of 118 or Philip Rivers, who may be a turd, but is a very good QB. Robinson has a QB rating for the year that is 13 points higher than Rivers and throws a full 19 yards more than Rivers per attempt, oh and he only has 1 pass attempt.

I am building my post on the fact that the only stat provided in your original fluff piece is a rate, which is a useless stat.

My suggestion to you would be, if you want to post that Flowers is a good young CB, then find his real stats, find out who they were against, lets be honest even I could prevent Seneca Wallace from passing the ball to Mohammed Massaqoi and then write down that and build a cohesive post around that. Coming in here quoting some arbitrary rates posted by that gaping sphincter Joyner is not going to make a good case.

If you want someone to chuck out stats day and night there are plenty of resources out there. This wasn't an article on Brandon Flowers only...part of the point of the article was about Flowers and the stat was used as a backup for it.

You are spinning your tires by getting too wrapped up in the small stat...obviously his body of work is turning heads and it isn't because of some weird fluke. For someone trying to give me thoughts about better ways to formulate arguments you didn't do yourself any favors by putting words in my mouth about me thinking Bailey isn't a top CB.

Garcia Bronco
10-15-2010, 04:30 PM
I'd take Flowers and Champ if I wanted the best.

Rulon Velvet Jones
10-17-2010, 02:13 PM
Is this where we meet to mock Flowers after that amazing performance?

KCStud
10-17-2010, 02:20 PM
Is this where we meet to mock Flowers after that amazing performance?

Flowers wasn't burned at all. That was Brandon Carr.

Rulon Velvet Jones
10-17-2010, 02:30 PM
I'm not talking just one play.

KCStud
10-17-2010, 07:09 PM
Yep you can clearly see that Johnson pushed off to make the catch. And Flowers barely touched him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x0lJhhlB2A

BroncosSR
10-17-2010, 07:34 PM
Yep you can clearly see that Johnson pushed off to make the catch. And Flowers barely touched him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x0lJhhlB2A

I think it should have been a no-call. Flowers had the arm bar up and AJ also pushed off a little but I really think there shouldn't have been a penalty called. Either way AJ caught the ball.

Rulon Velvet Jones
10-17-2010, 07:36 PM
Gee, that's too bad.

ZachKC
10-17-2010, 10:29 PM
Terrible call. Flowers was with him stride for stride until he pushed him off his path. But in football those things happen. Flowers played great the rest of the game.

theAPAOps5
10-17-2010, 11:19 PM
Terrible call. Flowers was with him stride for stride until he pushed him off his path. But in football those things happen. Flowers played great the rest of the game.

Yeah but he still is nowhere near Champ.

ZachKC
10-17-2010, 11:20 PM
Yeah but he still is nowhere near Champ.

Did you watch the game? You can be honest and say "no" I don't expect Broncos fans to watch all the Chiefs games.

theAPAOps5
10-17-2010, 11:22 PM
Did you watch the game? You can be honest and say "no" I don't expect Broncos fans to watch all the Chiefs games.

Yep and he is no Champ. He will be but he isn't there now.

I have been in suck ass KC twice now for games. Man that town is pathetic.

ZachKC
10-17-2010, 11:24 PM
Yep and he is no Champ. He will be but he isn't there now.

I disagree...which is fine. I just don't really see how one could watch that game not see all the great plays...passes defended...tipped...a great one on 3rd down.

theAPAOps5
10-17-2010, 11:26 PM
Again I said he will be a Champ but he is not one right now. When they will only throw to his side 5 times at most then we can talk. He makes plays because he doesn't shut down like Champ.

Yes Champ gave up a TD today but it took his own player picking him to do so. Now get back down on those knees and finish Flowers off.

ZachKC
10-17-2010, 11:28 PM
Again I said he will be a Champ but he is not one right now. When they will only throw to his side 5 times at most then we can talk. He makes plays because he doesn't shut down like Champ.

Yes Champ gave up a TD today but it took his own player picking him to do so. Now get back down on those knees and finish Flowers off.

Ha.

footstepsfrom#27
10-17-2010, 11:49 PM
Champ had a play in this game that quietly spoke volumes about why he was and is the best in the game. A Jet receiver catches the ball downfield with nothing between him and paydirt but Champ and a Jet blocking him. Bailey simultaneously read the receivers moves, then pushed the much larger blocker to one side like he wasn't even there and stopped the dude cold in his tracks before he could go two steps and gather speed. I was dissapointed the announcers didn't even mention it but it was an amazing play for a 195 pound CB to make. When you're as good as they come in coverage, and you can still make those kind of plays against the run or defending a guy running, that's All Pro caliber play. Give me Champ over anybody playing today. Sure...he MIGHT have lost half a step, but what he's got inexperience and pure game savvy WAY makes up for that.

theAPAOps5
10-17-2010, 11:50 PM
Champ had a play in this game that quietly spoke volumes about why he was and is the best in the game. A Jet receiver catches the ball downfield with nothing between him and paydirt but Champ and a Jet blocking him. Bailey simultaneously read the receivers moves, then pushed the much larger blocker to one side like he wasn't even there and stopped the dude cold in his tracks before he could go two steps and gather speed. I was dissapointed the announcers didn't even mention it but it was an amazing play for a 195 pound CB to make. When you're as good as they come in coverage, and you can still make those kind of plays against the run or defending a guy running, that's All Pro caliber play. Give me Champ over anybody playing today. Sure...he MIGHT have lost half a step, but what he's got inexperience and pure game savvy WAY makes up for that.

Stop making sense Chief fans don't like reality. Flowers is a chump next to Champ.

Mediator12
10-18-2010, 08:47 AM
The problem with everyone on this thread is bias, pure and simple. You have a seriously pre-dispositioned view of things and can not make sense of any objective measures whatsoever. For once, stop letting your emotional read upset your objectivity.

Here is what truly is going on here:

1. Flowers is a tremendous up and coming CB, who has only surrendered a few yards per throw at him all year. However, if you watch the Chiefs play you realize he is NOT asked to play that much man or deep single coverages. In fact, Against INDY he had 4 yard under coverage almost all game long with a safety over the top against a banged up WR corp. What this tells you is the WHY on how his 2 YPA has been achieved. He has NOT been asked to be a shutdown man press CB on an island like Bailey, Revis, Asomugha, or even Cromartie has been in NYJ this season. Therefore, it is extremely possible to have unbelieveable performance stats like the amazingly low YPA, when all you are asked to do is play a cover two CB with help over the top 80% of the time.

2. This is where KC's "analysis" always lacks a little. It does not qualify the performance, it simply states the success rate for the role. To be fair, the roles would have to be the same. The problem is DEN's scheme leaves Bailey exposed in ways Flowers scheme rarely does. DEN uses him in both man and zone on the other teams top WR almost exclusively instead of having him just stay on one side of the field like Flowers does almost all the time. In this case, the numbers do not lie, the attempt to compare the roles is severely flawed.

It would be interesting to see how Flowers would do in a heavy man no safety help scheme. We all know how well Bailey covers with help over the top, his numbers would be Better than Flowers because no one throws his way when he has help anymore because he picked off too many passes when they did. Again, that makes things incredibly simple for Flowers, and very complex for Bailey who got left out to dry yesterday when the safety failed to give deep middle support on the TD that Champ was expecting. This is like the fourth TD over the last couple years when Bailey was in cover 3 with outside leverage and the Safety failed to cover the deep middle. In the past, Bailey has made those plays he is not supposed to make, but even he can not give up inside deep leverage anymore and cover for a late arriving Safety. No matter what any quick comment anyone made on those TD's, those are NOT atributed to Bailey. They are attributed to a Blown Safety coverage.

3. Bailey is not the same as he was four years ago, when he was good enough to come off his own coverage and pick off balls intended for another WR. However, he still does a tremendous job in his role without an excellent supporting cast. He has lost a step, but that just makes him even speed with most WR's and his experience still makes him faster to the ball than most CB's with that same speed. He is still a top 5 Overall CB, he is just not the de facto best CB hands down and not the Elite "shutdown" moniker CB anymore.

4. The rest of the article is a big problem based on the different roles these guys are asked to play. Asomugha has ONLY been thrown at 37 Times in 21 Games for 339 yards in the last 2 seasons! That means he is giving up only 1.7 catches for 16 yards per game! How the HELL is that not outstanding and All-Pro Worthy?

The YPA metric only takes into account the ball being thrown at you, not all the balls being thrown elsewhere. The Raiders had 610 attempts for almost an 8.5 YPA over that time. That means teams threw at Asomugha only 6% of the time as a starting CB covering the other teams best WR all game long in predominantly press man solo coverage. To say that type of coverage deserves less merit than Flowers assisted YPA coverage numbers is misleading at best, and terribly faulty at worse. It denies the fact that All defenses, schemes, and coverages are not alike. It terribly overrepresents cover two CB's who mostly cover short routes in front of them and never have to turn and run with WR by themselves that often. And, it severely punishes the "elite" coverage CB's by not valuing their true role in a defense.

By contrast, Flowers has had 31 balls thrown at him this year alone, even with rolled coverage going his way. Last year he had 78 balls thrown his way. So in the last 21 games he has had 109 balls thrown at him. Asomugha has had 37 thrown at him in the last 2 seasons with 610 attempts! IMHO, that means Asomugha is much more effective doing what he does than Flowers is at what he does. Period.

The Joker
10-18-2010, 08:53 AM
Could you post more often please Mediator?

Actually, while you're here what are your thoughts on how well Champ would transition to playing Safety? Obviously it's a few years away, but I think he'd be a nightmare for opposing QB's playing zones in the middle of the field. Would love to hear your take if you have time.

Mediator12
10-18-2010, 08:58 AM
Could you post more often please Mediator?

Actually, while you're here what are your thoughts on how well Champ would transition to playing Safety? Obviously it's a few years away, but I think he'd be a nightmare for opposing QB's playing zones in the middle of the field. Would love to hear your take if you have time.

Bailey would be just like Rod or Charles Woodson at FS. He can form tackle, reads QB's, and he can even blitz. That may be the real reason for no contract extension too BTW. Starting CB's make a LOT MORE than starting Safety's........

The Joker
10-18-2010, 09:18 AM
Good to hear.

I'm thinking Champ might end up getting franchised this offseason. Really good thing that we got Orton a one year extension sorted so there's no potential choice between the two of them. Though a new CBA could change the whole thing completely, so who knows.

Can't see us letting him leave Denver though, with the switch to safety he's got 4 or 5 really good years left in him IMO. They'll work something out, I'd guess.

baja
10-18-2010, 09:22 AM
Bailey would be just like Rod or Charles Woodson at FS. He can form tackle, reads QB's, and he can even blitz. That may be the real reason for no contract extension too BTW. <b> Starting CB's make a LOT MORE than starting Safety's........

They could write a contract to reflect that.

I think they backed off the contract because Bowlen saw a turn for the worse in the negotiations.

Mediator12
10-18-2010, 09:42 AM
They could write a contract to reflect that.

I think they backed off the contract because Bowlen saw a turn for the worse in the negotiations.

Actually, no one signs a contract like that. No Agent would ever negotiate a contract based on a future postion change. They still want to get paid for the peak player performances despite where the player may be right now and the future.

baja
10-18-2010, 10:04 AM
Actually, no one signs a contract like that. No Agent would ever negotiate a contract based on a future position change. They still want to get paid for the peak player performances despite where the player may be right now and the future.

I don't see why you could not write a clause stating that if there was a position switch the current contract would become null & void and he could be given his release to look for a team willing to pay him more than we are to play safety. Champ is a fair guy he just wants fair market value.

TheChamp24
10-18-2010, 10:14 AM
That play for the TD pass to Edwards was brutal. Hill was blitzing and decided not to start his blitz til the ball was snapped, and came sprinting from 15-20 yards behind the line of scrimmage and ran right into a Jet OL.

Mediator12
10-18-2010, 11:37 AM
I don't see why you could not write a clause stating that if there was a position switch the current contract would become null & void and he could be given his release to look for a team willing to pay him more than we are to play safety. Champ is a fair guy he just wants fair market value.

Teams would love those kinds of contracts, but only get those with disingenous reclamation project veteran minimum type contracts that are Incentive laden.


Champ might be a fair guy, but that is why he has an agent do his contract. Remember, as soon as the agents get involved fair is off the table :welcome:

CEH
10-18-2010, 11:43 AM
That play for the TD pass to Edwards was brutal. Hill was blitzing and decided not to start his blitz til the ball was snapped, and came sprinting from 15-20 yards behind the line of scrimmage and ran right into a Jet OL.

This brings up a interesting thought by Brian Griese yesterday who thought the Broncos weren't doing enough to disguise their defenseive packages and gave Sanchez ammple opportunity to check out the defense. And yet Sanchez still had a bad game. Denver just needs to look at the missed plays they should have made to see why they lost the game.

BroncosSR
10-18-2010, 12:30 PM
Terrible call. Flowers was with him stride for stride until he pushed him off his path. But in football those things happen. Flowers played great the rest of the game.

Yes, he was with AJ stride for stride because of an arm bar. That's why the flag was thrown.

bronco militia
10-18-2010, 12:32 PM
Yes, he was with AJ stride for stride because of an arm bar. That's why the flag was thrown.

and Johnson pushed off.....replay the down

baja
10-18-2010, 01:22 PM
Teams would love those kinds of contracts, but only get those with disingenous reclamation project veteran minimum type contracts that are Incentive laden.


Champ might be a fair guy, but that is why he has an agent do his contract. Remember, as soon as the agents get involved fair is off the table :welcome:

Well you know more about this stuff than I do but it seems to me there should be some kind of work around given both parties know Champ will eventually move to safety (nobody knows when) and no team will pay top corner money to a safety.

KCStud
10-21-2010, 09:32 AM
Well good to see Johnson admits he pushed off..

"He tried to run into me and bump me and I hit him with a little elbow to create some separation and was able to make a play."

Mediator12
10-21-2010, 10:31 AM
Well good to see Johnson admits he pushed off..

"He tried to run into me and bump me and I hit him with a little elbow to create some separation and was able to make a play."

Yeah, he sure did.

However, KC went to much more man coverage in that game and Flowers was a little less than comfortable turning his hips and closing on the ball. I charted he gave up over 60 yards in man coverage. He was great playing underneath zones again, but struggled when having to play straight up with no help.

The whole secondary unraveled in the second half when they could not stop the passing game. And, It looked like Romeo panicked wehn Owen Daniels started catching the ball. He went very out of character from there on out changing his gameplan drastically to no avail. Chiefs offense looked solid too, should have put that game away....

Beantown Bronco
11-08-2010, 08:40 AM
Speaking of Flowers.....who was it the Raiders consistently picked on in the 4th quarter and OT when they absolutely needed to make a play? Oh, yeah. It was Flowers. And he was beaten each and every time.

BroncosSR
11-08-2010, 09:09 AM
Speaking of Flowers.....who was it the Raiders consistently picked on in the 4th quarter and OT when they absolutely needed to make a play? Oh, yeah. It was Flowers. And he was beaten each and every time.

Buuuuurrrrrrnnnnnnn.....

campocorto
11-15-2011, 02:03 PM
TOAST!!!

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2l3R4bziuZg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Jetmeck
11-15-2011, 02:16 PM
Bailey? Absolutely. A young up and coming talent compared to Bailey who is starting to decline?

Funny you were talking about building a franchise in another thread. Anyone building a franchise wouldn't hesitate a second before choosing Flowers over Bailey.

****in dumbass Chef fans too stupid to just go away.

Bailey declining my ass.....your NUMBER ONE RECEIVER DID SQUAT
ON SUNDAY SO KEEP TRYING.......................

Jetmeck
11-15-2011, 02:17 PM
Speaking of Flowers.....who was it the Raiders consistently picked on in the 4th quarter and OT when they absolutely needed to make a play? Oh, yeah. It was Flowers. And he was beaten each and every time.

i WATCH EVERY GAME THESE CLOWNS PLAY.............Talking up Flowers into Bailey terrotory is just plain STOOPID even for a Chef fans.

broncosteven
11-15-2011, 02:18 PM
I am guessing the OP was based on a PS fluff piece that has since been rendered moot by Flowers play in Multiple Blowouts and home field humiliations.

Popps
11-15-2011, 02:19 PM
We should really have a sub-forum dedicated to all of the stupid **** KC fans post here. It really is fascinating how consistently wrong they are. Boob leads the charge, of course.

Shotgun Willie
11-15-2011, 02:24 PM
Speaking of Flowers.....who was it the Raiders consistently picked on in the 4th quarter and OT when they absolutely needed to make a play? Oh, yeah. It was Flowers. And he was beaten each and every time.

love the avy

edog24
11-15-2011, 02:26 PM
I was waiting for Bowe to go into beast mode, never happened.

Peoples Champ
11-15-2011, 02:56 PM
I have absolutely nothing bad to say about Bailey...awesome guy...awesome player. I do think he is losing a step or two.


its called aging, not that new of a concept.

Peoples Champ
11-15-2011, 03:01 PM
Dwayne bowe's stats last 2 games champ has covered him

11-13-2011 - 2 catches, 17 yards, 0 TD
12-05-2010 - 0 catches, 0 yards, 0 TD

I would say that's still a shut down corner

broncosteven
11-15-2011, 03:23 PM
Speaking of Flowers.....who was it the Raiders consistently picked on in the 4th quarter and OT when they absolutely needed to make a play? Oh, yeah. It was Flowers. And he was beaten each and every time.

I wonder what happened to BeanTown, he hasn't logged in since September.

gyldenlove
11-15-2011, 04:12 PM
Dwayne bowe's stats last 2 games champ has covered him

11-13-2011 - 2 catches, 17 yards, 0 TD
12-05-2010 - 0 catches, 0 yards, 0 TD

I would say that's still a shut down corner

He has allowed 1.5 catches per game so far this season, that is pretty shutdown.

KCStud
11-15-2011, 05:28 PM
TOAST!!!

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/2l3R4bziuZg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

We were playing zone and Langford was responsible for the play. That's not on Flowers.

Mediator12
11-15-2011, 05:42 PM
We were playing zone and Langford was responsible for the play. That's not on Flowers.

No, KC was playing quarters coverage and Decker beat both Flowers and the safety on a double move and in the seam. Flowers and the safety both Blew the coverage by allowing decker to get behind them and on 3rd and 18 too ;D

KCStud
11-15-2011, 05:54 PM
No, KC was playing quarters coverage and Decker beat both Flowers and the safety on a double move and in the seam. Flowers and the safety both Blew the coverage by allowing decker to get behind them and on 3rd and 18 too ;D

BFlowers24 Brandon Flowers
@BCarr39 look at my timeline... They said I got burned by decker lol smh thats funny...I'm bout to start blockn people who don't know fball

Bronx33
11-15-2011, 05:56 PM
Decker sends his love to flowers.

Bronx33
11-15-2011, 05:58 PM
BFlowers24 Brandon Flowers
@BCarr39 look at my timeline... They said I got burned by decker lol smh thats funny...I'm bout to start blockn people who don't know fball


you dont know who your talking too ( thats the funny part)

TheReverend
11-15-2011, 06:08 PM
No, KC was playing quarters coverage and Decker beat both Flowers and the safety on a double move and in the seam. Flowers and the safety both Blew the coverage by allowing decker to get behind them and on 3rd and 18 too ;D

^ That. It's either quarters or man with cover 2 on the back end, but the LBs drops sure telegraph zone.

TheReverend
11-15-2011, 06:09 PM
BFlowers24 Brandon Flowers
@BCarr39 look at my timeline... They said I got burned by decker lol smh thats funny...I'm bout to start blockn people who don't know fball

Both corners are WAY too deep to be playing a cover 2 shell.

DomCasual
11-15-2011, 06:10 PM
I wonder what happened to BeanTown, he hasn't logged in since September.

I as just thinking the same thing.

Mediator12
11-15-2011, 06:15 PM
^ That. It's either quarters or man with cover 2 on the back end, but the LBs drops sure telegraph zone.

Pretty sure its quarters from the replay angles because of his alignment to the sideline and how deep he gets driven off the ball before Decker releases up field.

Yeah, the other side of the field also plays Quarters rules, so unless it was 1/4, 1/4 half and Flowers blew the flat coverage by running with Decker it was quarters and Decker was on the outside 1/4 of the field when he caught that ball.

KCStud
11-15-2011, 06:17 PM
Both corners are WAY too deep to be playing a cover 2 shell.

They're deep because they don't trust Langford. Big difference between a guy who got cut from camp and Eric Berry.

TheReverend
11-15-2011, 06:18 PM
Pretty sure its quarters from the replay angles because of his alignment to the sideline and how deep he gets driven off the ball before Decker releases up field.

Yeah, the other side of the field also plays Quarters rules, so unless it was 1/4, 1/4 half and Flowers blew the flat coverage by running with Decker it was quarters and Decker was on the outside 1/4 of the field when he caught that ball.

No, I'm definitively agreeing with you that it is. The end frame of the play that shows the corners or safeties could be either, but the LBs drops after the snap show zone all the way, so it has to be quarters and not man.

TheReverend
11-15-2011, 06:19 PM
They're deep because they don't trust Langford. Big difference between a guy who got cut from camp and Eric Berry.

Yeah... that's swell, but that's still wrong.

Bronx33
11-15-2011, 06:19 PM
They're deep because they don't trust Langford. Big difference between a guy who got cut from camp and Eric Berry.


Just stop talking ok ( you're wrong)

KCStud
11-15-2011, 06:41 PM
Just stop talking ok ( you're wrong)

Just learn football okay?

Flowers-4 INT's (tied/2nd in NFL), 15 passes defended (most in NFL)
Bailey-2 INT's, 4 passes defended.

You tell me who is the better CB this year.

Bronx33
11-15-2011, 06:43 PM
Just learn football okay?

Flowers-4 INT's (tied/2nd in NFL), 15 passes defended (most in NFL)
Bailey-2 INT's, 4 passes defended.

You tell me who is the better CB this year.


ya ok ( you got it allllllllll figured out) over one tweet from a burnt corner.

KCStud
11-15-2011, 06:45 PM
ya ok ( you got it allllllllll figured out) over one tweet from a burnt corner.

Let me guess? Champ deserves to go to the pro bowl this year even though a lot of CB's that play on worse defenses have been better than him.

Killericon
11-15-2011, 06:47 PM
Just learn football okay?

Flowers-4 INT's (tied/2nd in NFL), 15 passes defended (most in NFL)
Bailey-2 INT's, 4 passes defended.

You tell me who is the better CB this year.

These numbers are meaningless without knowing how often each CB gets thrown at...A stat which I can't seem to find. Maybe you're right, but that's like saying Pat Angerer is having a great season.

Rolandftw
11-15-2011, 06:52 PM
Just learn football okay?

Flowers-4 INT's (tied/2nd in NFL), 15 passes defended (most in NFL)
Bailey-2 INT's, 4 passes defended.

You tell me who is the better CB this year.

Champ's been better and it's not even close. Now, if you were to argue Carr, I could at least see your point.

Rolandftw
11-15-2011, 06:53 PM
Let me guess? Champ deserves to go to the pro bowl this year even though a lot of CB's that play on worse defenses have been better than him.

There's been some. But a lot? Nah. Probably doesn't deserve to go to the Pro Bowl and I don't really care if he makes it or not.

Still a top 5 corner.

KCStud
11-15-2011, 06:54 PM
Champ's been better and it's not even close. Now, if you were to argue Carr, I could at least see your point.

Carr is a pretty good CB, but he's not quite as good as Flowers, especially against the run.

Rolandftw
11-15-2011, 06:55 PM
These numbers are meaningless without knowing how often each CB gets thrown at...A stat which I can't seem to find. Maybe you're right, but that's like saying Pat Angerer is having a great season.

Exactly. Flowers has been regularly burned in almost every game this season. He's not even the best corner on the Chiefs.

Carr is better, and again it's not even remotely close.

gyldenlove
11-15-2011, 06:56 PM
Just learn football okay?

Flowers-4 INT's (tied/2nd in NFL), 15 passes defended (most in NFL)
Bailey-2 INT's, 4 passes defended.

You tell me who is the better CB this year.

Flowers is like Deltha Oneal and Cromartie, they make a few plays because they get the ball thrown at them so much - for some reason QBs seem to shy away from throwing to Bailey and the ones who don't (Carson Palmer) end up paying the price.

TheReverend
11-15-2011, 06:56 PM
Champ's been better and it's not even close. Now, if you were to argue Carr, I could at least see your point.

...but Flowers is better than Carr?

cutthemdown
11-15-2011, 06:59 PM
Bailey has lost a bit but still one of the 10 best corners in the NFL. Also the other guys only better because they are younger with more left in the tank. It doesn't mean it's any easier to throw on Bailey.

Also I know Revis is awesome, but I have never seen a CB get away with grabbing the jersey as much as he is this yr. Maybe Ty Law back in the day with the Pats.

He's had 2 or 3 blatant pass interferences that just went totally uncalled.

KCStud
11-15-2011, 06:59 PM
There's been some. But a lot? Nah. Probably doesn't deserve to go to the Pro Bowl and I don't really care if he makes it or not.

Still a top 5 corner.

Revis, Flowers, Woodson, Rogers, Houston, Nnamdi, Joseph and Webster have all played better than Champ this year.

Bronx33
11-15-2011, 06:59 PM
Let me guess? Champ deserves to go to the pro bowl this year even though a lot of CB's that play on worse defenses have been better than him.


You said that sunshine ( not me) but keep on being stupid.

KCStud
11-15-2011, 07:03 PM
Exactly. Flowers has been regularly burned in almost every game this season. He's not even the best corner on the Chiefs.

Carr is better, and again it's not even remotely close.

Mind elaborating on how Carr is better?

Rolandftw
11-15-2011, 07:03 PM
...but Flowers is better than Carr?

Nope. I think Carr is better. Has ideal size and speed for a corner.

Bigger WR's are always going to have an advantage going against Flowers one on one. Flowers isn't a bad player but there is a reason he's been targeted a lot by opposing teams.

I wouldn't be opposed to going after Carr in free agency. If the Chiefs are smart they lock him up, because he'll get a premium in the free agent market.

broncosteven
11-15-2011, 07:04 PM
Carr is a pretty good CB, but he's not quite as good as Flowers, especially against the run.

Flowers is clearly the reason KFC held us to only 244 rushing yards. Yes he is THAT good!

KCStud
11-15-2011, 07:06 PM
You said that sunshine ( not me) but keep on being stupid.

No this board said it. Try keeping up..

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=100871

Rolandftw
11-15-2011, 07:07 PM
Revis, Flowers, Woodson, Rogers, Houston, Nnamdi, Joseph and Webster have all played better than Champ this year.

I beg to disagree. Flowers playing better then Champ is laughable.

Rolandftw
11-15-2011, 07:11 PM
Mind elaborating on how Carr is better?

Already elaborated on it, but Flowers size is always going to be a mismatch against top WR's.

Carr has ideal size and speed for a corner. He's really improved his cover skills this year too. Will likely continue to get better as well. With the rules favoring WR's so much, a guy of his talent is a great addition for any team.

Flowers is a good corner, Carr could be great.

Bronx33
11-15-2011, 07:13 PM
No this board said it. Try keeping up..

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=100871



Dude you're an idiot i didn't bring up champ ( you did) i am merely making fun of you and you're too ****** stupid too even know it, flowers got burnt ( deal with it)

KCStud
11-15-2011, 07:14 PM
Dude you're an idiot i didn't bring up champ ( you did) i am merely making fun of you and you're too ****** stupid too even know it, flowers got burnt ( deal with it)

Stop crying

Bronx33
11-15-2011, 07:17 PM
Stop crying


Try keeping up next time that way you don't look like a dipshyt. ;D

KCStud
11-15-2011, 07:18 PM
Try keeping up next time that way you don't look like a dipshyt. ;D

/yawn

Bronx33
11-15-2011, 07:19 PM
exactly

theAPAOps5
11-15-2011, 08:11 PM
Just learn football okay?

Flowers-4 INT's (tied/2nd in NFL), 15 passes defended (most in NFL)
Bailey-2 INT's, 4 passes defended.

You tell me who is the better CB this year.

Scoreboard

broncosteven
11-15-2011, 08:17 PM
Scoreboard

And STANDINGS!

Garcia Bronco
11-15-2011, 08:29 PM
Brandon Flowers is a good corner. If you want to try and embarass him
, talk about how Moreno hurdled him. And don't expect Royal to make catches on him. They were schoolmates at Virginia Tech. As good as Flowers will be, he's not Champ Bailey. He's still the best in league.

KCStud
11-15-2011, 09:45 PM
Scoreboard

And what will that get you? Oh yeah a seat on the couch right next to KC come January.

theAPAOps5
11-15-2011, 09:47 PM
And what will that get you? Oh yeah a seat on the couch right next to KC come January.

scoreboard

KCStud
11-15-2011, 10:00 PM
scoreboard

You're an idiot

theAPAOps5
11-15-2011, 10:10 PM
Scoreboard

KCStud
11-15-2011, 10:19 PM
And I'm spent. Have fun jerking off to the replay Apieceoffail

Bronco Boy
11-16-2011, 12:24 AM
And I'm spent. Have fun jerking off to the replay Apieceoffail

Scoreboard!!!

Peoples Champ
11-16-2011, 07:35 AM
Brandon Flowers is a good corner. If you want to try and embarass him
, talk about how Moreno hurdled him. And don't expect Royal to make catches on him. They were schoolmates at Virginia Tech. As good as Flowers will be, he's not Champ Bailey. He's still the best in league.


Was that really Flowers that Moreno hurdled? I was at the game in the upper deck on the other side of the stadium, all I could see was a tiny flash of knowshon embarrassing someone, I didnt know it was flowers.

Steve Sewell
11-16-2011, 08:52 AM
Just learn football okay?

Flowers-4 INT's (tied/2nd in NFL), 15 passes defended (most in NFL)
Bailey-2 INT's, 4 passes defended.

You tell me who is the better CB this year.

You learn football, okay? Bailey get's like 2 to 3 balls thrown his way per game.

Peoples Champ
11-16-2011, 08:58 AM
You learn football, okay? Bailey get's like 2 to 3 balls thrown his way per game.


Ya this is a stat guy we are dealing with, doesn't use the eyeball test.

orange 4 life
11-16-2011, 10:11 AM
Just learn football okay?

Flowers-4 INT's (tied/2nd in NFL), 15 passes defended (most in NFL)
Bailey-2 INT's, 4 passes defended.

You tell me who is the better CB this year.

You're kidding right?

I know it's the internet era (some of us remember when you had to wait for stats once a week in the paper and you better memorize them because you couldn't recall them short of microfiche at the library!) but this is ridiculous.
Sometimes stats are just a nuisance and this would be a GREAT example.
NOTHING in those stats even comes CLOSE to showing who is a better player. Interceptions are CLEARLY not a great indicator of corner play. Neither is passes defended. Add ALL corner stats and SOMEWHAT of a picture may develop. Key word is "may".

So YOU please "just learn football" mmmmkay pumkin?
Evaluate the way we did in the old days.

OPEN YOUR FREAKING EYES AND WATCH IT!!!

Don't throw out useless stats. Watch the players, understand the game, and make a judgement based on what you see.
We've gotten SO spoiled with having any stat at our fingers that most young fans don't do any real evaluation with their own two eyes. Rather they listen to what they're told on ESPN and throw out whatever stats back up their player or team. It's gotten old.
Especially when 9 of 10 people employing this tactic can't hold an intelligent conversation about the matter. If you wanna say Flowers is better than Bailey then explain what YOU'VE seen to make you think that. Enough being stat nerd.

No one needed stats to tell us that Mike Haynes, Lott, Dennis Smith, Derron Cherry (there's your Chief!) or other db's were great players. I just watched them and formed my own opinion.

Peoples Champ
11-16-2011, 10:30 AM
You're kidding right?

I know it's the internet era (some of us remember when you had to wait for stats once a week in the paper and you better memorize them because you couldn't recall them short of microfiche at the library!) but this is ridiculous.
Sometimes stats are just a nuisance and this would be a GREAT example.
NOTHING in those stats even comes CLOSE to showing who is a better player. Interceptions are CLEARLY not a great indicator of corner play. Neither is passes defended. Add ALL corner stats and SOMEWHAT of a picture may develop. Key word is "may".

So YOU please "just learn football" mmmmkay pumkin?
Evaluate the way we did in the old days.

OPEN YOUR FREAKING EYES AND WATCH IT!!!

Don't throw out useless stats. Watch the players, understand the game, and make a judgement based on what you see.
We've gotten SO spoiled with having any stat at our fingers that most young fans don't do any real evaluation with their own two eyes. Rather they listen to what they're told on ESPN and throw out whatever stats back up their player or team. It's gotten old.
Especially when 9 of 10 people employing this tactic can't hold an intelligent conversation about the matter. If you wanna say Flowers is better than Bailey then explain what YOU'VE seen to make you think that. Enough being stat nerd.

No one needed stats to tell us that Mike Haynes, Lott, Dennis Smith, Derron Cherry (there's your Chief!) or other db's were great players. I just watched them and formed my own opinion.


exactly, the last few years people said Darrel Revis was the best CB in the league, and he has few picks. Few targets = Few interceptions.

Peoples Champ
11-16-2011, 10:32 AM
exactly, the last few years people said Darrel Revis was the best CB in the league, and he has few picks. Few targets = Few interceptions.


but if you want a statistical phenomenon, the year champ had 10 interceptions a few years back, he was Targeted the least amount by any CB for a season in the history of the game. How he still had 10 picks blows my mind?

bronco militia
11-16-2011, 10:33 AM
Just learn football okay?

Flowers-4 INT's (tied/2nd in NFL), 15 passes defended (most in NFL)
Bailey-2 INT's, 4 passes defended.

You tell me who is the better CB this year.

more QB's are not afraid of Flowers, therefore he has more opportunities to make plays


duhhh

Kaylore
11-16-2011, 10:34 AM
And what will that get you?.

Seeing your team get owned made me happy.

MOCRUSH
11-16-2011, 11:33 AM
And I'm spent. Have fun jerking off to the replay Apieceoffail

KC Stud, you are probably spent from the constant effort to keep the KC next to Stud in his username, my keyboard automatically inserts a space (a lot of space) between them, probably because all technology on the interwebs has been developed since the Chorfs won anything of substance.

24champ
11-16-2011, 11:48 AM
And I'm spent. Have fun jerking off to the replay Apieceoffail

scoreboard

Br0nc0Buster
11-16-2011, 09:43 PM
Just learn football okay?

Flowers-4 INT's (tied/2nd in NFL), 15 passes defended (most in NFL)
Bailey-2 INT's, 4 passes defended.

You tell me who is the better CB this year.

typical inbred logic

Nnamdi Asomugha has 6 interceptions total his past 4.5 seasons

wow if only he was as good as Flowers....