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TonyR
10-13-2010, 01:33 PM
Today's question about the Broncos comes from Kurt Weber. Send your question via e-mail to jlegwold@denverpost.com.

Q: What is the first-quarter grade for nose tackle Jamal Williams? It's easy to miss him while watching the Broncos, which is remarkable for someone pushing 350 pounds. But I have been trying to pay attention, and it looks like Williams is doing his job by eating double-team blocks and still pushing toward the pocket. I have noticed that he has forced offensive penalties when he has gotten 7 or 8 yards into the backfield.

A: Kurt, after charting the games thus far, I would give Williams a B-plus grade. He certainly impacts games when he's in the lineup. The only thing working against him, and it's nothing Williams can control at this point, is the fact that he is a 34-year-old player at a high-impact position.

The pounding a nose tackle takes is excruciating to watch. To have to go through that every game is another matter entirely. It's a thankless job for the most part because he isn't going to pile up sacks, tackles for a loss or plays that get on TV highlights.

His job is to eat up blockers, which Williams still does consistently well. It's why the Broncos rolled the dice to sign him to a three-year contract worth $7 million in guaranteed money.

No team — the Broncos included — can play a 3-4 defense successfully without a dominating presence in the middle of the line. Joe Collier, a former Broncos defensive coordinator and a 3-4 expert, said a quality nose tackle is the first player you acquire when you're putting a 3-4 together.

Williams isn't a full-time player now. He's had too many knee and ankle surgeries, too much wear and tear during 13 seasons in the NFL.

As their 31-17 loss at Baltimore showed, the Broncos don't have an answer for running games that pound away when Williams isn't on the field. There were long stretches during the loss to the Ravens when Williams and defensive end Justin Bannan — two of the Broncos' biggest free-agent signings in the offseason — were on the sideline, and the Ravens were keenly aware of that.

Baltimore ran into the middle of the Broncos' defense with more success when Williams was on the sideline, including the 14-play, 72-yard touchdown drive that closed out the third quarter and started the fourth. That scoring drive extended the Ravens' lead to 24-7 and lasted nearly 7-1/2 minutes.

The Ravens ran the ball 12 times on that drive, and most of those carries were into the middle of the Broncos' lighter defensive front. The same thing happened in the fourth quarter as the Broncos again tried to rotate Williams. On that 11-play, 90-yard drive, the Ravens ran the ball nine times — much of that between the tackles, including the 30-yard touchdown gallop by Willis McGahee to finish it.

Williams has been what the Broncos hoped he would be. But he just can't be in there on every defensive play at this point of his long career.

Read more: Q&A: Nose tackle Jamal Williams gets a B-plus grade so far - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16320993#ixzz12GkDEsVh

cutthemdown
10-13-2010, 02:00 PM
We need to draft young big DT, or go into FA for a younger player. These old guys who can't play but 25-30 plays a game won't get it done.

Garcia Bronco
10-13-2010, 02:08 PM
I liked the free agent moves this year on the line, but I was disappointed to see Baker go and majorly disappointed we didn't grab a DT in the draft.

Popps
10-13-2010, 02:12 PM
I liked the free agent moves this year on the line, but I was disappointed to see Baker go and majorly disappointed we didn't grab a DT in the draft.

Beat me to it.

RaiderH8r
10-13-2010, 02:14 PM
To start, I am not being critical of the Broncos here, we have a ton of holes to fill so take this as it is intended.

BJ Raji has been impressive so far.

A high quality (Jamal Williams/Casey Hampton in his prime quality) NT for a 3-4 is arguably the rarest type of player in football. Massive size, quick feet, strength, stamina, and whatever ability or luck is required to stay healthy to succeed at the position for 8-10 years.

Beantown Bronco
10-13-2010, 02:32 PM
To start, I am not being critical of the Broncos here, we have a ton of holes to fill so take this as it is intended.

BJ Raji has been impressive so far.

A high quality (Jamal Williams/Casey Hampton in his prime quality) NT for a 3-4 is arguably the rarest type of player in football. Massive size, quick feet, strength, stamina, and whatever ability or luck is required to stay healthy to succeed at the position for 8-10 years.

Two things on Raji:

1. He was long gone before the Broncos pick
2. Unless I'm mistaken, he has been playing DE in their 3-4, not NT.

oubronco
10-13-2010, 02:46 PM
We need to invest heavily in the front 7 this offseason

supermanhr9
10-13-2010, 02:52 PM
To totally re-vamp the front line would mean to abandon any other focus on any other part of the team. Thsi place would blow up if McD just focused on the front 7 only in the offseason and the draft. But that is what it would take I'm afraid.

***Disclaimer, when I say focus entirely, I mean all picks in the first 3-4 rounds, and any FA signing that catches any type of news attention,,, any deal over 1.5-2 million dollar range a year.

Rabb
10-13-2010, 02:53 PM
Two things on Raji:

1. He was long gone before the Broncos pick
2. Unless I'm mistaken, he has been playing DE in their 3-4, not NT.

correct

meangene
10-13-2010, 02:53 PM
It looks to be a good draft for guys who could play 3-4 DE - i.e. big college DE's or quicker DT's but not so great for NT. I could definitely see us going DE with our 1st pick or, even, CB. A NT flying under the radar is Notre Dame's Ian Williams. Not huge, but very active at 315 lbs.. And, he plays a true NT position.

footstepsfrom#27
10-13-2010, 02:55 PM
We need to draft young big DT, or go into FA for a younger player. These old guys who can't play but 25-30 plays a game won't get it done.
Unless of course you have 3 of them to plug into the position.

What happened to Chris Baker? He was supposed to be the answer wasn't he? I thought he'd at least make the team.

TonyR
10-13-2010, 03:05 PM
What happened to Chris Baker?

He was getting death threats from Rev and went into hiding...

eddie mac
10-13-2010, 03:19 PM
Who's Baker with now??? Dolphins practice squad last I heard and it doesn't look like anyone has even attempted to sign him given through 5 weeks teams have lost players at NT. Everyone in the league bar Nolan cant be wrong surely???

oubronco
10-13-2010, 03:24 PM
To totally re-vamp the front line would mean to abandon any other focus on any other part of the team. Thsi place would blow up if McD just focused on the front 7 only in the offseason and the draft. But that is what it would take I'm afraid.

***Disclaimer, when I say focus entirely, I mean all picks in the first 3-4 rounds, and any FA signing that catches any type of news attention,,, any deal over 1.5-2 million dollar range a year.

Wouldn't bother me one bit

cutthemdown
10-13-2010, 03:27 PM
Unless of course you have 3 of them to plug into the position.

What happened to Chris Baker? He was supposed to be the answer wasn't he? I thought he'd at least make the team.

Man I don't know. Seems like none of the dlineman we pick ever turn out. I'm no freaking expert but it sure would be nice if the Broncos front office was. I'm starting doubt the whole shabang.

cutthemdown
10-13-2010, 03:28 PM
If it wasn't for Mcdaniels doing wonders with the WR and Orton I would say he is an utter failure. His roster decisions are starting to look questionable. Except for the Cutler thing, I think that worked out ok. Marshall for 2 firsts also not a bad deal. It's just who he took with all those picks that may come into question.

Rabb
10-13-2010, 03:31 PM
never mind, not even worth it

gtown
10-13-2010, 03:53 PM
If our record continues to suffer would love to take a run at Marcell Dareus from Bama in the first round. He has looked like a beast.

_Oro_
10-13-2010, 04:15 PM
If it wasn't for Mcdaniels doing wonders with the WR and Orton I would say he is an utter failure. His roster decisions are starting to look questionable. Except for the Cutler thing, I think that worked out ok. Marshall for 2 firsts also not a bad deal. It's just who he took with all those picks that may come into question.

2 seconds

Zoobie
10-13-2010, 04:29 PM
To totally re-vamp the front line would mean to abandon any other focus on any other part of the team. Thsi place would blow up if McD just focused on the front 7 only in the offseason and the draft. But that is what it would take I'm afraid.

***Disclaimer, when I say focus entirely, I mean all picks in the first 3-4 rounds, and any FA signing that catches any type of news attention,,, any deal over 1.5-2 million dollar range a year.

Need drafting like that is what gets franchises in trouble, you just don't do it. The BAP(Best Available Player) philosophy is the only way I think there is to go. If we are on the clock next year and there is a better WR, LB, OT, LB, CB, or what have you, we should take them. You don't let more talented players go just because your team "needs" a defensive end. Leaving better players on the board is giving talent to other teams, potentially conference and division rivals. You also can never predict injuries, or when a certain player will drop off, or whatever the case may be. Sure we may not "need" a left tackle, if there is a highly talented player on the board, and an end we have ranked lower on our board, take the Tackle. If your starter goes down, you have talent behind him, and if he cannot be used in a permanent capacity, you have trade bait and depth at the very worst.

Having said that, I believe there will be plenty of opportunities for the value of a DE to match our board in multiple rounds of the upcoming draft in April. If we reach(Jarvis Moss, ahem) for any position, I think it's a big disappointment.

WolfpackGuy
10-13-2010, 05:36 PM
I liked the free agent moves this year on the line, but I was disappointed to see Baker go and majorly disappointed we didn't grab a DT in the draft.

This year or last year?

Or like Deion?

"Boaf!"

WABronco
10-13-2010, 06:53 PM
Williams has been just like every other generic pre-retirement DL we've dragged in here.

FireFly
10-13-2010, 06:54 PM
If it wasn't for Mcdaniels doing wonders with the WR and Orton I would say he is an utter failure. His roster decisions are starting to look questionable. Except for the Cutler thing, I think that worked out ok. Marshall for 2 firsts also not a bad deal. It's just who he took with all those picks that may come into question.

I don't buy into that at all. We've been hit big by injuries. Can't blame him for that personally!!

Ayers was playing well. DJ well enough. O-line is young and will come together.

Dawkins is a leader. Doom was resigned long term.

Cox was a great pick (for where he was picked)

etc.

TonyR
10-13-2010, 07:11 PM
Williams has been just like every other generic pre-retirement DL we've dragged in here.

Then you clearly don't agree with Legwold.

RaiderH8r
10-13-2010, 07:40 PM
Two things on Raji:

1. He was long gone before the Broncos pick
2. Unless I'm mistaken, he has been playing DE in their 3-4, not NT.

All I'm saying is the guy has been impressive so far. It would be nice if we could pull a talent like that in the draft in the near future. We need to hit a big D oriented draft...well, like 8 years ago but next year will have to do.

WolfpackGuy
10-13-2010, 07:42 PM
All I'm saying is the guy has been impressive so far. It would be nice if we could pull a talent like that in the draft in the near future. We need to hit a big D oriented draft...well, like 8 years ago but next year will have to do.

2011 is not the year for DL.

A lot of talent went by the Broncos in 2009 and 2010.

WABronco
10-14-2010, 12:13 AM
Then you clearly don't agree with Legwold.

Well, clearly.

Beantown Bronco
10-14-2010, 05:06 AM
2011 is not the year for DL.

A lot of talent went by the Broncos in 2009 and 2010.

The 2009 draft was crap for DLine.
Too early to grade 2010's.

Drek
10-14-2010, 05:21 AM
If it wasn't for Mcdaniels doing wonders with the WR and Orton I would say he is an utter failure. His roster decisions are starting to look questionable. Except for the Cutler thing, I think that worked out ok. Marshall for 2 firsts also not a bad deal. It's just who he took with all those picks that may come into question.

So he gets no credit for pulling a bottom of the league defense up to the 10-15 range in one season, while changing schemes?

Only three starters in '08 are were starters in '09. One of them changed positions. He completely rebuilt the D in an off-season and this year he took another solid step forward with it while also getting his passing game in order like he wanted it.

We were not a very good team in '07 and '08. '07 we weren't even .500. In '08 we needed some good breaks to make it to .500. We lived off of Shanahan's fantastic game planning and that is why we always collapsed down the stretch (teams get footage on you and figure our the scheming, same thing that got us last year).

McDaniels was tasked with pretty much a full rebuild with a fanbase that wasn't going to be happy with even 8-8 and a starting QB ready to mutiny if he didn't get a fat contract extension.

But the WRs and Orton is all he's done well. Sure sure.

fontaine
10-14-2010, 06:53 AM
I think McD has achieved what is probably the toughest thing to do in the NFL and that's find and groom a QB to produce in a pretty complex offensive system.

The rest regarding the OL/front 7 can be addressed through good drafting and continuing to build from the trenches. It's not pretty right now but he has this team on the right track and even though he's made mistakes on the way he made plenty of good decisions also.

Mediator12
10-14-2010, 07:18 AM
The 2009 draft was crap for DLine.
Too early to grade 2010's.

2009 was not a crap draft, just not a lot of instant impact type players on the DL. Still, there was a lot of talent to develop. 2010 had the deepest DT class in years, but only a few real NT's.

NT's are hard to find coming out, because they are unselfish huge big men. Heck, Haloti Ngata does not even play NT for BAL! He moves everywhere along their DL.

BTW, whoever graded Williams as a B anything has no idea what they are talking about. A C grade would be generous.

CEH
10-14-2010, 07:35 AM
So he gets no credit for pulling a bottom of the league defense up to the 10-15 range in one season, while changing schemes?

Only three starters in '08 are were starters in '09. One of them changed positions. He completely rebuilt the D in an off-season and this year he took another solid step forward with it while also getting his passing game in order like he wanted it.

We were not a very good team in '07 and '08. '07 we weren't even .500. In '08 we needed some good breaks to make it to .500. We lived off of Shanahan's fantastic game planning and that is why we always collapsed down the stretch (teams get footage on you and figure our the scheming, same thing that got us last year).

McDaniels was tasked with pretty much a full rebuild with a fanbase that wasn't going to be happy with even 8-8 and a starting QB ready to mutiny if he didn't get a fat contract extension.

But the WRs and Orton is all he's done well. Sure sure.

You just outlined exactly why I can't say we are better under McD than Shanny. The results are the same. His new vision has not taken hold as we are as much a finese team than the '06-08 teams.

Let's not forget for whatever reason McD fired his DC after one year.

Mike Shanahan was never better than .500 over the last 12 games of any season since '00 except .05 so he outschemed teams early then the talent caught up


Meet the new boss same as the old boss? Who knows right now. History says yes so far.

I think this year with all the injuries McD atleast has a chance to impress the brass with his ability to lead a team. The final record may not be an indication of how well he coached.

I would really like to see the OLine come together maybe the last 4 games or so to see this offense take off . You can see that with a running game similar to NE where the pass sets up the run and we get larger chunks on fewer carries this O should be one of the tops in the league. I think the red zone issues will be lessen with some sort of running game.

3rd and one for us right now is a passing down. That should not be the case.
Heck anything less than 3rd and 5 should be open to a run or pass

I'll give McD a big thumbs up if we are over .500 the last 8 games maybe something like 5-3. Something that leads us to believe the team is acsending instead of mired in the mud of avereage

Mediator12
10-14-2010, 07:59 AM
You just outlined exactly why I can't say we are better under McD than Shanny. The results are the same. His new vision has not taken hold as we are as much a finese team than the '06-08 teams.

Let's not forget for whatever reason McD fired his DC after one year.

Mike Shanahan was never better than .500 over the last 12 games of any season since '00 except .05 so he outschemed teams early then the talent caught up


Meet the new boss same as the old boss? Who knows right now. History says yes so far.

I think this year with all the injuries McD atleast has a chance to impress the brass with his ability to lead a team. The final record may not be an indication of how well he coached.

I would really like to see the OLine come together maybe the last 4 games or so to see this offense take off . You can see that with a running game similar to NE where the pass sets up the run and we get larger chunks on fewer carries this O should be one of the tops in the league. I think the red zone issues will be lessen with some sort of running game.

3rd and one for us right now is a passing down. That should not be the case.
Heck anything less than 3rd and 5 should be open to a run or pass

I'll give McD a big thumbs up if we are over .500 the last 8 games maybe something like 5-3. Something that leads us to believe the team is acsending instead of mired in the mud of avereage

I Do NOT agree with this. As far as being better, we are not there yet. However, we are very different. The defense is no longer finesse, it is a much larger physical based unit. The offense no longer runs a soft zone running scheme, but a power based angle blocking scheme. Those are where teams are finesse or not.

The amount of throwing versus the ability to run is not a finesse style, it is a coaching necessity at this point. It would be terrible coaching to run the ball when it is so ineffective and the passing game is working so well (Ask Jack Del Rio). The makeup of this team is much more power orientated than it ever was with Shanahan. Just because they are not able to execute at a high level yet does not make them a finesse team, it makes them a team in transition that does not have the scheme or execution of the scheme down yet.

I will say this, DEN is one of the only solid Offensive teams in the NFL right now. NO, DAL, GB, NE are all struggling mightily while being great offensive teams a year ago. DEN has improved and improved drastically in this area.

Defensively, they are just getting beat. A lot of that is from not being able to stop the run consistently and then not being able to rush the passer on top of that. They will get better, they are making a lot of mental and effort errors that should be correctable with film study. Plus, they should get a few guys back form injury.

fontaine
10-14-2010, 08:02 AM
I thought Marcus Thomas had a better game than Williams.

bowtown
10-14-2010, 08:06 AM
Can people stop saying that McDaniels fired Nolan?

Abqbronco
10-14-2010, 08:13 AM
Can people stop saying that McDaniels fired Nolan?

They can but they won't. Why let facts get in the way?

CEH
10-14-2010, 08:30 AM
I Do NOT agree with this. As far as being better, we are not there yet. However, we are very different. The defense is no longer finesse, it is a much larger physical based unit. The offense no longer runs a soft zone running scheme, but a power based angle blocking scheme. Those are where teams are finesse or not.

The amount of throwing versus the ability to run is not a finesse style, it is a coaching necessity at this point. It would be terrible coaching to run the ball when it is so ineffective and the passing game is working so well (Ask Jack Del Rio). The makeup of this team is much more power orientated than it ever was with Shanahan. Just because they are not able to execute at a high level yet does not make them a finesse team, it makes them a team in transition that does not have the scheme or execution of the scheme down yet.

I will say this, DEN is one of the only solid Offensive teams in the NFL right now. NO, DAL, GB, NE are all struggling mightily while being great offensive teams a year ago. DEN has improved and improved drastically in this area.

Defensively, they are just getting beat. A lot of that is from not being able to stop the run consistently and then not being able to rush the passer on top of that. They will get better, they are making a lot of mental and effort errors that should be correctable with film study. Plus, they should get a few guys back form injury.

Finese in terms of still being dominated on both sides of the LOS.
Yes schematically it's different but I was using the term "finese" as far as imposing your will on someone. Is "soft" a better adjective to use. Pick a word that means being beaten one on one.

We can hope it's just a matter of scheme but who knows at this point.

Maybe it's my fault for associating "power" with moving the opponent forward instead of backwards

I still have hope for the OLine but the front seven leaves alot to be desired

I mean the '05 team blitzed and generated tons of turnovers but even John Lynch said himself it was all smoke and mirrors.

In the end is different better? Not really if the results are the same.

CEH
10-14-2010, 08:32 AM
Can people stop saying that McDaniels fired Nolan?

Sorry next time I will use the term "revolving door at DC"

That should still fit with what happens year in and year out here in Denver

Mediator12
10-14-2010, 08:58 AM
Finese in terms of still being dominated on both sides of the LOS.
Yes schematically it's different but I was using the term "finese" as far as imposing your will on someone. Is "soft" a better adjective to use. Pick a word that means being beaten one on one.

We can hope it's just a matter of scheme but who knows at this point.

Maybe it's my fault for associating "power" with moving the opponent forward instead of backwards

I still have hope for the OLine but the front seven leaves alot to be desired

I mean the '05 team blitzed and generated tons of turnovers but even John Lynch said himself it was all smoke and mirrors.

In the end is different better? Not really if the results are the same.

Being beaten one on one can be several things.

1. It starts with effort.
2. Then, technique.
3. Talent comes when you are good enough to win the first 2 consistently.

The guys being blown off the ball are not soft or finesse players. They are just not winning the first three steps and the handpunch consistently. They are slow off the snap, poor in their technique, and not talented enough to recover from that.

As far as results go, the results are not the same. Different types of results against different types of teams. The matchups are drastically different. However, if you are solely basing results on W/L then Ok. That is the bottom line, but its a short term what have you done for me lately approach. What I see is a team that will be built with making the postseason, winning games in the playoffs, and then competing for a SB sooner than the previous model ever did. DEN was NEVER one or 2 players away from that, they were too inconsistent to be that close. This scheme should produce a more balanced level team, when it starts to work. The problem is its only partly working with spare parts right now. That should change sooner rather than later.

oubronco
10-14-2010, 09:04 AM
So is that a coaching problem then who's the o-line coach?

CEH
10-14-2010, 09:32 AM
Being beaten one on one can be several things.

1. It starts with effort.
2. Then, technique.
3. Talent comes when you are good enough to win the first 2 consistently.

The guys being blown off the ball are not soft or finesse players. They are just not winning the first three steps and the handpunch consistently. They are slow off the snap, poor in their technique, and not talented enough to recover from that.

As far as results go, the results are not the same. Different types of results against different types of teams. The matchups are drastically different. However, if you are solely basing results on W/L then Ok. That is the bottom line, but its a short term what have you done for me lately approach. What I see is a team that will be built with making the postseason, winning games in the playoffs, and then competing for a SB sooner than the previous model ever did. DEN was NEVER one or 2 players away from that, they were too inconsistent to be that close. This scheme should produce a more balanced level team, when it starts to work. The problem is its only partly working with spare parts right now. That should change sooner rather than later.

Forget about the adjectives and bottomline this for me



let's try to explain your 3 points

If it's truely an effort issue.
Could effort be associated with coaching or tuning a coach out?
Why is the effort not there?

Could talent be attributed to drafting and evaluation? Probably

Could techique be associated with coaching and the abiliity to understand what is being taught? i.e. intellegence does the player understand what is being asked of him

If those three questions continue at some point Josh will have to answer to Ellis and Bowlen. I think you're feeling they won't continue to be an issue.
I'd like to hope so but again I'm in the show me don't tell me mind set

I'm not calling for Josh's head but from Bowlen and Ellis perpective do they get into the nuts and bolts and compare and contrast the different schemes and understand why something is working or not working. Can Josh really say in year three we are not getting the effort nor do we have the talent. Right now yes. Next year if issues still arise not so much

I think the NFL is just like any other business and at the end of the day it's based on results in fact if I knew exactly what Ellis and Bowlen wants out of Josh it would make this time easier to understand.

Either way I just have to ride it out but I hope sooner gets here at some point.

I can tell that the Lions are better than it's 1-4 record by what they put on the field. From a fan's perspective , We keep hearing "trust the system" The system works. Thats fine. Progress (results on the field with the new scheme) would be nice to see at some point this year.

Speaking of short term. It's pretty obvious to me that Josh will succeed or fail on whether McX can aquire the right personel to execute his scheme. That will utlimatly fall on his ability to draft and infuse this team with a young core. His vet FAs have been outstanding but they are always short term fixes

cutthemdown
10-14-2010, 09:43 AM
Unless of course you have 3 of them to plug into the position.

What happened to Chris Baker? He was supposed to be the answer wasn't he? I thought he'd at least make the team.

Yeah but also when you rely on mulitiple players for one spot you get teams like colts that trap your guys on field with the no huddle.

Guys running on and off the field because they are old IMO just makes for a non cohesive unit.

The more every down players we can find the better off we will be.

cutthemdown
10-14-2010, 09:45 AM
I don't buy into that at all. We've been hit big by injuries. Can't blame him for that personally!!

Ayers was playing well. DJ well enough. O-line is young and will come together.

Dawkins is a leader. Doom was resigned long term.

Cox was a great pick (for where he was picked)

etc.

Hmmm Ayers seems pretty average. DJ doesn't have a ton left in the tank, Oline may come together but they are unproven, Dawkins is old and about done, Cox really looks like crap and not sure why people so high on him.

spdirty
10-14-2010, 09:48 AM
To totally re-vamp the front line would mean to abandon any other focus on any other part of the team. Thsi place would blow up if McD just focused on the front 7 only in the offseason and the draft. But that is what it would take I'm afraid.

***Disclaimer, when I say focus entirely, I mean all picks in the first 3-4 rounds, and any FA signing that catches any type of news attention,,, any deal over 1.5-2 million dollar range a year.

No. I think if we did that, then many of his critics, detractors, etc. would be ecstatic. Or at least they should. One of my biggest criticisms of this team since McDaniels has gotten here is the fact that we have invested exactly one pick in the first 6 rounds and 2 picks overall (if you count a 7th round pick) on the front seven.

Of course I am very happy having Ayers, DJ, and Doom as 3 of our 4 linebackers when they're healthy. That looks damn impressive.

I'm happy with getting Bannan, Jamal Williams is a great stopgap. But I would like to see this team, personnel wise, to make it one of their top priorities to get a young stud 3-4 NT who can learn behind Big Jamal for a couple years and who can anchor the D-line for 10 years. And I would also like to see them look to make it a priority to get good talented depth in the draft at linebacker, rather than having street free agents back up our studs.



We haven't made DT a priority on this team since Pryce left. And thats a big strike against both of the last 2 regimes.

TonyR
10-14-2010, 10:26 AM
Hmmm Ayers seems pretty average. DJ doesn't have a ton left in the tank, Oline may come together but they are unproven, Dawkins is old and about done, Cox really looks like crap and not sure why people so high on him.

Ayers has improved a lot from last year and looks extremely promising. What are you watching?
DJ has plenty left.
Somewhat agree on the OL but I don't agree that Clady, Harris and Kuper aren't "proven".
Agree on Dawkins.
I think Cox is still a bit raw, makes some mistakes and gets burned occasionally. But I don't know what you're watching if you don't think he has a lot of talent and shows promise.

Plenty to be disappointed and cautious about but you are far too negative.

misturanderson
10-14-2010, 10:49 AM
Hmmm Ayers seems pretty average. DJ doesn't have a ton left in the tank, Oline may come together but they are unproven, Dawkins is old and about done, Cox really looks like crap and not sure why people so high on him.

You are an extremely negative person. Your analysis shows this.

Ayers was performing at a very high level for a 2nd year player at the position with no help opposite him. DJ is finally playing consistently well at a more permanent position and is 28 years old ("not a lot left in the tank", what a moronic statement).

The rest of your analysis isn't far off (Cox isn't as bad as you are making him out to be, but he hasn't been consistent so far), but when you start with two idiotic points it taints the rest of what you say afterwards.

cutthemdown
10-14-2010, 01:44 PM
Well I said to start yr Broncos lack talent on defense to come anywhere near good enough and I was right.

DJ a very hot and cold player and has been whole career. He's not physical enough to play inside in a 3-4 with any consistency, IMO.

Clady, Harris, Kuper are proven good players but injured and not playing well this yr. The other 2 spots though aren't looking real good. Also if Kuper not injured then something really wrong because hes getting beat consistently.

Cox just another avg dback who get's burned to the extreme.

Bailey getting old, Dawkins getting old.

Ayers is a decent player but I don't see him being a stud. Maybe that would help.

Really none of the DE, or DT are promising young players. We do have Williams and Bannan who are basically cast off has beens from teams with good defenses.

I'm not a negative person at all though. I'm sure in a couple yr Broncos can assemble a good team again. Right now though they suck as bad as they ever have since elway retired.

I think maybe they should draft some front 7 but what do i know. I'm just a pessimist.

Mediator12
10-14-2010, 02:20 PM
Forget about the adjectives and bottomline this for me



let's try to explain your 3 points

If it's truely an effort issue.
Could effort be associated with coaching or tuning a coach out?
Why is the effort not there?

Could talent be attributed to drafting and evaluation? Probably

Could techique be associated with coaching and the abiliity to understand what is being taught? i.e. intellegence does the player understand what is being asked of him

If those three questions continue at some point Josh will have to answer to Ellis and Bowlen. I think you're feeling they won't continue to be an issue.
I'd like to hope so but again I'm in the show me don't tell me mind set

I'm not calling for Josh's head but from Bowlen and Ellis perpective do they get into the nuts and bolts and compare and contrast the different schemes and understand why something is working or not working. Can Josh really say in year three we are not getting the effort nor do we have the talent. Right now yes. Next year if issues still arise not so much

I think the NFL is just like any other business and at the end of the day it's based on results in fact if I knew exactly what Ellis and Bowlen wants out of Josh it would make this time easier to understand.

Either way I just have to ride it out but I hope sooner gets here at some point.

I can tell that the Lions are better than it's 1-4 record by what they put on the field. From a fan's perspective , We keep hearing "trust the system" The system works. Thats fine. Progress (results on the field with the new scheme) would be nice to see at some point this year.

Speaking of short term. It's pretty obvious to me that Josh will succeed or fail on whether McX can aquire the right personel to execute his scheme. That will utlimatly fall on his ability to draft and infuse this team with a young core. His vet FAs have been outstanding but they are always short term fixes

1. Effort is about attitude. Being willing, ready, and able to get hammered on to stop the run and relentless going after the passer. Do you see the players playing that way?

As it relates to coaching, effort is about the one thing you can not control on gameday. What you can control is who plays and how much based on their effort in previous plays. It also means benching or demoting players who do not give their best on every play. Some teams will do that during a game, some during the season, and others in the postseason. It all depends on the coaching philosophy.

2. Talent is the ability to outexecute someone when both players are putting forth effort and using the proper technique. It is who is quicker, stronger, and more experienced when all else is equal. The reason superemely talented players struggle in the NFL is that they are losing the other battles of effort, experience, and technique. It is also a mental skill just as much as a physical one. Some 4.5 players play like they are 4.8 because they are mentally slow to read their keys, diagnose, and execute. Likewise, some 4.7 guys play like they are 4.4 because they are step ahead mentally. Coaches gravitate to the higher measurables guy thinking they can "coach them up" while personnel guys like football charater players who eat live and breath football.

As it relates to coaching, the Player personnel people have to get players who fit a teams schemes. IF that happens, then the coaches have to prepare them mentally to be faster than their opponents. That is a both player/coach relationship issue that can not be seperated. If the Personnel people do not get the players needed then you get sloppy football, no matter what the coaches do.

3. Technique is extremely important and usually very lacking from Raw college players. The exceptions are players like Dumervil who was already technique savy coming out of LOU. He had to be, because he lacked measurables. However, he is also a supreme effort guy who eats lives and breathes football. He did not test to well, but he had great, diverse technique coming out and a motor as well.

The problem is all too many players are drafted by measurables in the first round. These guys are really developmental and need at least 2 years to make an impact for their teams. Coaches do not get a lot of time to spend teaching fundamentals in today's NFL, so the best teams have their vets teach the young guys as well as the Offensive or defensive assistants. A lot of development comes from players being willing to put in the effort, and then getting solid instruction from teams and vets.

Another major problem arises when a unit is so bad, read DEN's OL, that the coach HAS to spend time getting back to fundamentals in practice and therefore does not get the same amount of time to devote to gameplan, scheme, and adjustments. This is where DEN's OL is right now. They are so futile off the snap that they have to work on get off drills every day and miss some other form of instruction like individual blitz protection adjustments versus BAL. It is opportunity cost in a nutshell. You only have so much time in a week to prepare for a team and having to go basic sometimes takes out the details that win the game.

So, bottomline is this team is still behind the curve and struggling with fundamentals IMHO. All that can and will be changed when they get some basics sorted out and can return to spending their time on the details instead of the basics. The details win football games in the NFL. The teams that take care of them better than the other team simply win games consitently.

Some cases in point, GB, MIN, DAL, and NO offenses the last 2 weeks. They are penalty ridden, turnover, and mental mistake prone. All of those units are top 7 or eight in pure NFL talent. And, all of them played like pure crap the last few weeks because they failed in doing the little things right and gave teams an opportunity. Same thing is going on in DEN with their OL and DL woes. They are beating themselves, not playing sound football.

I see this as very correctable errors. It does not mean they will be corrected, but it does give me hope as opposed to just getting physically pounded by teams like BAL or letting soft teams like INDY rack up career days on them.

CEH
10-14-2010, 02:54 PM
1. Effort is about attitude. Being willing, ready, and able to get hammered on to stop the run and relentless going after the passer. Do you see the players playing that way?

As it relates to coaching, effort is about the one thing you can not control on gameday. What you can control is who plays and how much based on their effort in previous plays. It also means benching or demoting players who do not give their best on every play. Some teams will do that during a game, some during the season, and others in the postseason. It all depends on the coaching philosophy.

2. Talent is the ability to outexecute someone when both players are putting forth effort and using the proper technique. It is who is quicker, stronger, and more experienced when all else is equal. The reason superemely talented players struggle in the NFL is that they are losing the other battles of effort, experience, and technique. It is also a mental skill just as much as a physical one. Some 4.5 players play like they are 4.8 because they are mentally slow to read their keys, diagnose, and execute. Likewise, some 4.7 guys play like they are 4.4 because they are step ahead mentally. Coaches gravitate to the higher measurables guy thinking they can "coach them up" while personnel guys like football charater players who eat live and breath football.

As it relates to coaching, the Player personnel people have to get players who fit a teams schemes. IF that happens, then the coaches have to prepare them mentally to be faster than their opponents. That is a both player/coach relationship issue that can not be seperated. If the Personnel people do not get the players needed then you get sloppy football, no matter what the coaches do.

3. Technique is extremely important and usually very lacking from Raw college players. The exceptions are players like Dumervil who was already technique savy coming out of LOU. He had to be, because he lacked measurables. However, he is also a supreme effort guy who eats lives and breathes football. He did not test to well, but he had great, diverse technique coming out and a motor as well.

The problem is all too many players are drafted by measurables in the first round. These guys are really developmental and need at least 2 years to make an impact for their teams. Coaches do not get a lot of time to spend teaching fundamentals in today's NFL, so the best teams have their vets teach the young guys as well as the Offensive or defensive assistants. A lot of development comes from players being willing to put in the effort, and then getting solid instruction from teams and vets.

Another major problem arises when a unit is so bad, read DEN's OL, that the coach HAS to spend time getting back to fundamentals in practice and therefore does not get the same amount of time to devote to gameplan, scheme, and adjustments. This is where DEN's OL is right now. They are so futile off the snap that they have to work on get off drills every day and miss some other form of instruction like individual blitz protection adjustments versus BAL. It is opportunity cost in a nutshell. You only have so much time in a week to prepare for a team and having to go basic sometimes takes out the details that win the game.

So, bottomline is this team is still behind the curve and struggling with fundamentals IMHO. All that can and will be changed when they get some basics sorted out and can return to spending their time on the details instead of the basics. The details win football games in the NFL. The teams that take care of them better than the other team simply win games consitently.

Some cases in point, GB, MIN, DAL, and NO offenses the last 2 weeks. They are penalty ridden, turnover, and mental mistake prone. All of those units are top 7 or eight in pure NFL talent. And, all of them played like pure crap the last few weeks because they failed in doing the little things right and gave teams an opportunity. Same thing is going on in DEN with their OL and DL woes. They are beating themselves, not playing sound football.

I see this as very correctable errors. It does not mean they will be corrected, but it does give me hope as opposed to just getting physically pounded by teams like BAL or letting soft teams like INDY rack up career days on them.

Thanks for taking the time to explain how you see things. I will keep this in mind.

Champ said we will not lose because of being unprepared.

I think we can all agree it will come down to evaluating and aquiring players who can execute on Sunday what you are trying to sell.

Requiem
10-14-2010, 03:43 PM
Great draft for the front seven. :)

Mediator12
10-14-2010, 05:19 PM
Great draft for the front seven. :)

2011? What year?