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~Crash~
10-11-2010, 06:11 PM
http://www.examiner.com/sports-in-denver/broncos-missing-one-key-guy

~Crash~
10-11-2010, 06:12 PM
Alex would Help but..................

Dagmar
10-11-2010, 06:27 PM
Not a move the coach will make.

oubronco
10-11-2010, 06:51 PM
Gibbs, for you Johnny-come-very-lately Broncos fans, was the architect of the Broncos' running game in the late 1990s that ran roughshod over the NFL. He was a Broncos assistant for 13 seasons. When he and Mike Shanahan had a falling out, Gibbs left and worked in a couple other NFL cities. Everywhere he ended up, that team’s running game revved up in a big way.

Truth be spoken

baja
10-11-2010, 06:57 PM
That would be a consideration if Josh wanted a ZBS but he dumped that when we had the players for it in favor of the power blocking scheme before we had the players to play it.

Pony Boy
10-11-2010, 06:57 PM
It ain't gonna happen, but I would love to eat some crow if it did.

WolfpackGuy
10-11-2010, 06:59 PM
Clancy's got it on lock.

UberBroncoMan
10-11-2010, 07:08 PM
That would be a consideration if Josh wanted a ZBS but he dumped that when we had the players for it in favor of the power blocking scheme before we had the players to play it.

3 out of our 5 fit ZBS and were drafted by Shanahan. Walton has shown mobility. Also, our LG situation is anything but decided. We could go to ZBS if we wanted to.

baja
10-11-2010, 07:11 PM
3 out of our 5 fit ZBS and were drafted by Shanahan. Walton has shown mobility. Also, our LG situation is anything but decided. We could go to ZBS if we wanted to.

We sure as hell could run the ball with the ZBS and we sure as hell can't run the ball with whatever we have now but Josh doesn't want it so case closed.

ant1999e
10-11-2010, 07:34 PM
I've been thinking this all season. I believe Alex Gibbs could do alot of positive things with this oline.

footstepsfrom#27
10-11-2010, 07:35 PM
3 out of our 5 fit ZBS and were drafted by Shanahan. Walton has shown mobility. Also, our LG situation is anything but decided. We could go to ZBS if we wanted to.
You just put your finger on the problem. How many highly ranked NFL running teams that play a power blocking scheme do you suppose can say that? I would bet, none. My point is, this line was constructed to play the ZBS and most of the players we have in there are now playing outside the scheme they know success in, and the one's that aren't are rookies or UDFA guys just now getting PT. We don't have the players for that scheme IMO but even if athletically we did, moving from one system to another can't be easy. Mix in injuries to both the line and the backs...the result is ugly.

Josh can impress me with a high pick next year going for a sledgehammer interior line guy who can roadgrade people.

DivineBronco
10-11-2010, 07:53 PM
hasn't Gibbs quit on every team he has played for said he was going to retire only to come back and do the same thing again?

lostknight
10-11-2010, 08:10 PM
Gibbs would be brilliant as a o-line coach, but it would require agreement from Josh to abandon power rushing. That's about as likely as finding out that Saddam Hussein is still alive, and decided to become Jewish.

OABB
10-11-2010, 08:18 PM
We run zone alot actually. What we need is blocking period. Don't care what you call it, just make a hole.

Taco John
10-11-2010, 08:38 PM
It's hard to read Marc Knudson articles because he spends half of his pen time insulting his readers.

~Crash~
10-11-2010, 08:47 PM
We run zone alot actually. What we need is blocking period. Don't care what you call it, just make a hole.

that is kind of my Beef with MCD He has stated over and over that his team will play smart . well since Dennison left Our Oline has went to hell they look like basket cases and I love the talent except the LG . he should turn in his gear. I would rather go with the Rookie.

Taco John
10-11-2010, 08:48 PM
Also, if Nolan and McDaniels couldn't co-exist in the same lockerroom, I sure as hell don't have hope for McDaniels and Alex Gibbs being able to do so. And maybe Mark might have noticed that Josh shipped off all of the zone blocking style defenders, and eschewed the entire scheme for a more man-on-man style that better fits the spread option. There's absolutely no way in hell Josh is going to reverse course on that and go back to the ZBS. Would the ZBS even work with the a spread option? It would be VERY confusing.

This article is irritating. He spends half of it talking down to "johnny come lately" Broncos fans, and he advocates this far-fetched idea that runs entirely contrary to what Josh has established.

ZONA
10-11-2010, 09:00 PM
NO THANKS

Gibbs had his glory years and is on the verge of 70. Let me the man sip on a few brewskies on a boat somehwere. The last thing you want is to get all back and forth with what you are doing in your plan. McD wants a power rush game and don't go getting wish washy about it. Just keep working on it.

elsid13
10-12-2010, 02:44 AM
Also, if Nolan and McDaniels couldn't co-exist in the same lockerroom, I sure as hell don't have hope for McDaniels and Alex Gibbs being able to do so. And maybe Mark might have noticed that Josh shipped off all of the zone blocking style defenders, and eschewed the entire scheme for a more man-on-man style that better fits the spread option. There's absolutely no way in hell Josh is going to reverse course on that and go back to the ZBS. Would the ZBS even work with the a spread option? It would be VERY confusing.

This article is irritating. He spends half of it talking down to "johnny come lately" Broncos fans, and he advocates this far-fetched idea that runs entirely contrary to what Josh has established.

Zone block can work with with spread style attack, there are number of colleges that use it as their primary method of running the ball. ZBS means that when linemen move they block defenders in their "zone" to create a double team at the point of attack. Power block is when the linemen have specific assignment to block.

BTW we don't run a spread option, that would infer that QB is primary runner and would give the ball up to the running back based what the DE does on given play.

Rock Chalk
10-12-2010, 05:59 AM
Until he quits again.

Alex Gibbs is the biggest flaker in the NFL. What happens when he quits mid-season? He just quit on Carroll right before the season started.

missingnumber7
10-12-2010, 06:34 AM
This article is irritating. He spends half of it talking down to "johnny come lately" Broncos fans, and he advocates this far-fetched idea that runs entirely contrary to what Josh has established.

Its not different than this message board many times...and I'm just as guilty as the next guy.

Beantown Bronco
10-12-2010, 06:38 AM
hasn't Gibbs quit on every team he has played for said he was going to retire only to come back and do the same thing again?

He's the Brett Favre of the coaching world.

Kaylore
10-12-2010, 09:22 AM
And maybe Mark might have noticed that Josh shipped off all of the zone blocking style defenders, and eschewed the entire scheme for a more man-on-man style that better fits the spread option.

Zone blocking defenders? Spread option? Taco, what are you talking about?

Taco John
10-12-2010, 09:31 AM
Zone blocking defenders? Spread option? Taco, what are you talking about?

Yeah, not defenders... Linemen... This no sleep thing is affecting me.


Spread option is right though. I've been reading a lot about Urban Meyer lately, and the fact that Josh went down to visit and learn the offense, and then incorporated it and made it his own. The option is the presnap read. Of all the articles I've read, I think this one summarizes it the best:
http://www.footballtimes.org/Article.asp?ID=217

Kaylore
10-12-2010, 10:18 AM
Yeah, not defenders... Linemen... This no sleep thing is affecting me.


Spread option is right though. I've been reading a lot about Urban Meyer lately, and the fact that Josh went down to visit and learn the offense, and then incorporated it and made it his own. The option is the presnap read. Of all the articles I've read, I think this one summarizes it the best:
http://www.footballtimes.org/Article.asp?ID=217

First of all, I'm sorry you're tired.

Secondly, I think you're misunderstanding that article and if you heard the interview with McDaniels, he more clearly explained this. Yes, they absolutely borrowed some of the passing concepts from Meyer. The routes and ways to attack coverage, etc. However McDaniels didn't adopt the spread offense in anyway. The spread option is a read option with option to pass or keep depending on how the line plays and what the QB reads. We don't do that. We have multiple wide receivers, and so are "spread out" sometimes, but that is something that is not spread option specific, or even any offense specific. Lots of offenses use multiple WR combinations and give them the ability (actually expect them to) adjust their routes based on the coverage they see. Miami and Tennessee with Young have used some of a true spread option, but not us, at least not since last year against the Cowboys. The verbiage is still Erhardt - Perkins, and while we throw the ball way more than a traditional EP offense, (and this year we attack down field more often) it's still an EP offense at heart. Really the lines between "this offense and that" are extremely blurry anymore since there is nothing stopping any team in any offense from running any play. I remember Shanahan always jokes that no one knew what the west coast offense was anymore.

Also, there is nothing about a spread option that mandates man blocking. Most spread teams employ some variation of a zone stretch play. In fact most teams have some zone stretch in their playbook. I believe Gibbs could help, but not because a zone blocking scheme would be better, but more because I think our OL coaching sucks and Gibbs is a good coach. Just my opinion.

Taco John
10-12-2010, 01:27 PM
First of all, I'm sorry you're tired.

Secondly, I think you're misunderstanding that article and if you heard the interview with McDaniels, he more clearly explained this. Yes, they absolutely borrowed some of the passing concepts from Meyer. The routes and ways to attack coverage, etc. However McDaniels didn't adopt the spread offense in anyway. The spread option is a read option with option to pass or keep depending on how the line plays and what the QB reads. We don't do that. We have multiple wide receivers, and so are "spread out" sometimes, but that is something that is not spread option specific, or even any offense specific. Lots of offenses use multiple WR combinations and give them the ability (actually expect them to) adjust their routes based on the coverage they see. Miami and Tennessee with Young have used some of a true spread option, but not us, at least not since last year against the Cowboys. The verbiage is still Erhardt - Perkins, and while we throw the ball way more than a traditional EP offense, (and this year we attack down field more often) it's still an EP offense at heart. Really the lines between "this offense and that" are extremely blurry anymore since there is nothing stopping any team in any offense from running any play. I remember Shanahan always jokes that no one knew what the west coast offense was anymore.

Also, there is nothing about a spread option that mandates man blocking. Most spread teams employ some variation of a zone stretch play. In fact most teams have some zone stretch in their playbook. I believe Gibbs could help, but not because a zone blocking scheme would be better, but more because I think our OL coaching sucks and Gibbs is a good coach. Just my opinion.


I've read a lot of conflicting things in the last few weeks about this. I absolutely agree with you that the base offense is the EPO. I disagree about McDaniels not adopting the spread offense in any way. Just by looking at the number of times we go into the shotgun indicates that Josh has adapted the spread into his philosophy. You're right, however, that it's hard to call Josh's offense any one thing because it's really a hybrid of three different philosophies - but at you say, the base is Earnhart Perkins.

You're right that the spread option doesn't mandate man-on-man blocking, but in my reading, it would be very complicated to use zone blocking and keep everybody on the same page. Perhaps this is not the case, but as I understand the spread option, it's about the quarterback identifying the defender who is out of position, and then optioning the the play in a way where the offense outnumbers the defense every time (whether that be run or that be pass).

I agree that being "spread out" is not what makes a spread offense. In my reading, it's the mismatch that makes it a spread offense.

Taco John
10-12-2010, 01:28 PM
Also, in a second reading, I don't think it's off the mark to call offensive linemen "defenders" in the context that I used them in, since they do defend the backs. But I digress.

mkporter
10-12-2010, 02:36 PM
Also, in a second reading, I don't think it's off the mark to call offensive linemen "defenders" in the context that I used them in, since they do defend the backs. But I digress.

If we're debating what your original intent was, I read "Josh shipped off all of the zone blocking style defenders" as we got rid of the coaches who were "defenders of the zone blocking scheme," ie Dennison and Turner. It's probably better if you just let us decide what you believe. :thumbs:

Kaylore
10-12-2010, 02:46 PM
I've read a lot of conflicting things in the last few weeks about this. I absolutely agree with you that the base offense is the EPO. I disagree about McDaniels not adopting the spread offense in any way. Just by looking at the number of times we go into the shotgun indicates that Josh has adapted the spread into his philosophy. You're right, however, that it's hard to call Josh's offense any one thing because it's really a hybrid of three different philosophies - but at you say, the base is Earnhart Perkins.

You're right that the spread option doesn't mandate man-on-man blocking, but in my reading, it would be very complicated to use zone blocking and keep everybody on the same page. Perhaps this is not the case, but as I understand the spread option, it's about the quarterback identifying the defender who is out of position, and then optioning the the play in a way where the offense outnumbers the defense every time (whether that be run or that be pass).

I agree that being "spread out" is not what makes a spread offense. In my reading, it's the mismatch that makes it a spread offense.

I think you're confusing spread offense and spread option (maybe still tired). In your original post you said we run the spread option. That is a QB read offense with option to keep or pass. "Spread offense" isn't an offense. It's just using multiple wide receivers. And trying to match up receivers on linebackers is not spread option specific, that's just called football. ;)

Taco John
10-12-2010, 06:10 PM
I think you're confusing spread offense and spread option (maybe still tired). In your original post you said we run the spread option. That is a QB read offense with option to keep or pass. "Spread offense" isn't an offense. It's just using multiple wide receivers. And trying to match up receivers on linebackers is not spread option specific, that's just called football. ;)

It's my understanding that we run a EPO modified by both the philosophies of the WCO and the spread option offense philosophy that Urban Meyer made famous.

driver
10-12-2010, 06:28 PM
We sure as hell could run the ball with the ZBS and we sure as hell can't run the ball with whatever we have now but Josh doesn't want it so case closed.

Unfortunately I have to agree, and we aren't going to have the chance. I've said this before, our oline as is could go to zbs easily with beadles at left guard.
We would need to get some more mobile backups, though the starters would be ok but the others Hochsteer, Daniels, Baptist couldn't hack it.Ha!

p.s. We would also need to get some good coaches for oline and rb's.

elsid13
10-12-2010, 06:33 PM
It's my understanding that we run a EPO modified by both the philosophies of the WCO and the spread option offense philosophy that Urban Meyer made famous.

Yes and no. Like everyone else in NFL the team has "borrowed" from other coaching staffs. I disagree with Kaylore that this team still is EPO team, the might still use the vocabulary and the play calling method, but they are not power running/play action team. This offense is closer to the air raid philosophy in college then old EPO style of offenses.

Taco John
10-12-2010, 07:31 PM
From my reading and television "film" study, I agree with Kaylore on as much as that we use an EPO base, but even the Spread Option is a run first offense. This is where the West Coast philosophy has been mixed in, however. We aren't a run first team, and Josh seems content to use the short, high percentage passing game to pick up yards.

Taco John
10-12-2010, 07:56 PM
By the way, this article is awesome for understanding the Urban Meyer passing game, including things that Josh does using it:

http://understandingthetrickeration.wordpress.com/2010/05/02/understanding-the-urban-meyeruniversity-of-florida-offense/

~Crash~
10-12-2010, 08:34 PM
Dennison at least did have our Oline players prepared !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! this coach has two really kick ass OT's totally lost . Our Oline was ten times better last year then McDaniel's started to tinker ! Hamilton lost his job and then each time this coach has tinkered with the Oline it has regressed . If I was Pat I would at least get Gibbs in here to work 2 days a Week and draw up blocking schemes . like he did his last year here .

Rock Chalk
10-13-2010, 06:26 AM
Dennison at least did have our Oline players prepared !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! this coach has two really kick ass OT's totally lost . Our Oline was ten times better last year then McDaniel's started to tinker ! Hamilton lost his job and then each time this coach has tinkered with the Oline it has regressed . If I was Pat I would at least get Gibbs in here to work 2 days a Week and draw up blocking schemes . like he did his last year here .

Dennison left though. Not because McDaniels wanted him to, because he took a promotion and went to work with an old friend. This is extremely common in the NFL.

Why would Gibbs come back now? He has no ties to anyone on the staff and rest assured that the Owner relationship with subordinate members of the coaching staffs is minimal at best in most circumstances.

That and the dude is like 2 million years old and cannot do it consistently anymore. He is unreliable.

There are other coaches out there we COULD go after however, but Gibbs isn't one of them.

~Crash~
10-13-2010, 06:49 AM
Dennison left though. Not because McDaniels wanted him to, because he took a promotion and went to work with an old friend. This is extremely common in the NFL.

Why would Gibbs come back now? He has no ties to anyone on the staff and rest assured that the Owner relationship with subordinate members of the coaching staffs is minimal at best in most circumstances.

That and the dude is like 2 million years old and cannot do it consistently anymore. He is unreliable.

There are other coaches out there we COULD go after however, but Gibbs isn't one of them.

You are right I don't think Gibbs at 69 should be a coach no more . but I would like him at least com e in two days a week and draw up blocking schemes like he did the last year he worked here.

thing is this Oline coach we have now has regressed the whole(Each and every player) Oline plain and simple as that .

~Crash~
10-13-2010, 06:58 AM
Nailen is a high School Coach in the Denver area I wish the Broncos would consult with him at least . IMO Nailen could fix this line coaching wise .thing is the more this coach has tinkered with the Oline the worse this team has gotten. Hamilton at least could run Block ,after him the line play just got worse. never better .

mkporter
10-13-2010, 07:07 AM
Nailen is a high School Coach in the Denver area I wish the Broncos would consult with him at least . IMO Nailen could fix this line coaching wise .thing is the more this coach has tinkered with the Oline the worse this team has gotten. Hamilton at least could run Block ,after him the line play just got worse. never better .

Hamilton was awful when he left here. Not saying we've been doing a lot better since, but he was getting abused.

~Crash~
10-13-2010, 07:10 AM
Hamilton was awful when he left here. Not saying we've been doing a lot better since, but he was getting abused.

Hate to tell you the only place he stuggled was the same place he alway did size of DT's in the passing game other wise same old same old.

mkporter
10-13-2010, 10:14 AM
Hate to tell you the only place he stuggled was the same place he alway did size of DT's in the passing game other wise same old same old.

Not sure why you're so concerned about telling me things. The problem was that he used to be able to at least hold his ground against the bigger DTs in pass protection, but he was getting blown off the line last year.

Taco John
10-13-2010, 02:45 PM
Nailen is a high School Coach in the Denver area I wish the Broncos would consult with him at least . IMO Nailen could fix this line coaching wise .thing is the more this coach has tinkered with the Oline the worse this team has gotten. Hamilton at least could run Block ,after him the line play just got worse. never better .

Nalen's a coach now? That's very interesting. I'd love to hear his thoughts about our line.