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baja
10-07-2010, 01:11 AM
Reposted from; http://www.milehighreport.com/2010/9/9/1679665/the-cutler-trade

Mile High Report - The Cutler Trade
by tunesmith on Sep 9, 2010 7:47 PM MDT



In another fanpost, I decided to go through the Cutler math again. I realized while writing it what an amazing deal we got out of the whole thing, and I remembered that sometimes people talk about how much of an idiot McDaniels is with his draft and trade decisions. Next time someone does that to you, pull this out.





It starts with Keary Colbert. We traded Keary Colbert to Seattle for a 2009 fifth rounder.

We then traded that fifth rounder and Cutler to Chicago for Kyle Orton, two first-round picks (2009 #18 and 2010 #11), and a third-rounder (2009 #84).

Our 2009 #18 became Robert Ayers.

Our 2009 #84 got packaged with our other third-rounder, and became either Richard Quinn or Seth Olsen. Let's just say that either one would be described as a bust.

Our 2010 pick got complicated.

We traded #11 for #13 and #113
We traded #13 for #24, #70, and #87
We traded #24 and #113 for #22, which became Demaryius Thomas
#87 became Eric Decker.
This leaves #70.
We traded Brandon Marshall for #43 and a 2011 2nd rounder.
We traded #43, #70, and our normal 4th-rounder (#114) for #25.
#25 became Tim Tebow.
So, let's summarize.
We gave up:
Keary Colbert
Jay Cutler
Brandon Marshall
Our 2010 4th rounder (#114)
We received:
Kyle Orton
Tim Tebow
Demaryius Thomas
Eric Decker
Robert Ayers
Richard Quinn or Seth Olsen
A 2011 2nd rounder
That's 2 QBs for Cutler, 2 WRs for Marshall, Robert Ayers and (Quinn or Olsen) for Keary Colbert, and a 2011 2nd rounder for a 2010 4th rounder.

McD is clearly an idiot, no?

This may have been posted, if so it bares repeating.

The Joker
10-07-2010, 01:23 AM
But Jay can haz Cannon Arm.

CANNON ARM!!

Houshyamama
10-07-2010, 01:30 AM
But Jay can haz Cannon Arm.

CANNON ARM!!

Even my non-Bronco fan roommates have been impressed with Orton's arm strength this season.

UberBroncoMan
10-07-2010, 01:33 AM
Even my non-Bronco fan roommates have been impressed with Orton's arm strength this season.

They said Orton had been working out quite a bit this off-season. He was kind of out of shape last year. Both due to injury, and spending more time in the playbook than the training room/gym. I'm sure his mechanics have improved as well. He's been a bit quicker in the pocket this year.

baja
10-07-2010, 02:07 AM
Orton is on target for a Pro Bowl appearance.

baja
10-07-2010, 02:13 AM
I vote the direction of this thread be not about Cutler or Marshall but about the players we got in return.

That is a boat load of promising talent.

1. It appears that in Orton we have close to what we would have with a cooperative Cutler <b>in this system </b>

2. It appears that Bay Bay will be at least as great a threat as Marshall without the baggage.

3. That makes all the rest gravy;


Tim Tebow (great shot at stardom)

Eric Decker (appears to have strong potential at being a match up nightmare.)

Robert Ayers ( has superstar written all over him)

Richard Quinn or Seth Olsen (Quinn is still on the roster so there is still some hope)

A 2011 2nd rounder ( there is sure to be a great player available here if FO is wise enough and/or lucky enough to find him)

Houshyamama
10-07-2010, 02:19 AM
I vote the direction of this thread be not about Cutler or Marshall but about the players we got in return.

That is a boat load of promising talent.

1. It appears that in Orton we have close to what we would have with a cooperative Cutler <b>in this system </b>

2. It appears that Bay Bay will be at least as great a threat as Marshall without the baggage.

3. That makes all the rest gravy;


Tim Tebow
Eric Decker
Robert Ayers
Richard Quinn or Seth Olsen
A 2011 2nd rounder

That's a bit of a stretch. Bay Bay is impressive, but he hasn't really done anything yet. Marshall is a BEAST. We'll be very fortunate if Thomas turns out to be his equal. That said, he DOES appear to have all the tools to get the job done.

Houshyamama
10-07-2010, 02:20 AM
They said Orton had been working out quite a bit this off-season. He was kind of out of shape last year. Both due to injury, and spending more time in the playbook than the training room/gym. I'm sure his mechanics have improved as well. He's been a bit quicker in the pocket this year.

For sure. I'm all aboard the Orton bandwagon.

baja
10-07-2010, 02:26 AM
That's a bit of a stretch. Bay Bay is impressive, but he hasn't really done anything yet. Marshall is a BEAST. We'll be very fortunate if Thomas turns out to be his equal. That said, he DOES appear to have all the tools to get the job done.

Yes Marshall is a beast he also needed to be benched the last game of the season for conduct detrimental to the team and was a distraction for much of the early season. He also is prone to taking plays off, but maybe the biggest gift he gave us was by leaving, it allowed <b>four other receivers to blossom and more than fill the void he left.</b>

Blueflame
10-07-2010, 02:47 AM
But Jay can haz Cannon Arm.

CANNON ARM!!

Result? Mediocre .500 football team for McDaniels. McDaniels has a LOT to prove.

baja
10-07-2010, 02:53 AM
Result? Mediocre .500 football team for McDaniels. McDaniels has a LOT to prove.

You are falling out of your cups, Trick or Treat....


;D

baja
10-07-2010, 02:58 AM
Result? Mediocre .500 football team for McDaniels. McDaniels has a LOT to prove.

What has he not done that in your opinion he should he have done?

OABB
10-07-2010, 03:05 AM
What has he not done that in your opinion he should he have done?

Come from another program. He made a huge mistake working for the pats.

The Joker
10-07-2010, 03:47 AM
Result? Mediocre .500 football team for McDaniels. McDaniels has a LOT to prove.

Yeah, cos my post was clearly a MEGA SUPER MAD SERIOUS endorsement of McDaniels wasn't it? Ha!

Still, you keep spreading the good word.

TailgateNut
10-07-2010, 03:56 AM
Come from another program. He made a huge mistake working for the pats.

Haters will hate. Isn't it odd that some of the moderators have their hearts attached to Jay and Shanny and exhibit pure hatred for anything/ anyone who unintentionally had something to do with their departure.

Atwater His Ass
10-07-2010, 04:02 AM
It's not hatred. It's the fact that we aren't any better now than when Shanahan was fired and a good argument can be made that McD is in over his head and we aren't moving in the right direction.

Looks like Bowlen is going to give McD a fair shake at turning this around, but talk is cheap. He needs to start putting up W's.

TailgateNut
10-07-2010, 04:17 AM
It's not hatred. It's the fact that we aren't any better now than when Shanahan was fired and a good argument can be made that McD is in over his head and we aren't moving in the right direction.

Looks like Bowlen is going to give McD a fair shake at turning this around, but talk is cheap. He needs to start putting up W's.


Bull****.

Atwater His Ass
10-07-2010, 04:20 AM
k hoss. keep telling other people how they feel and keep bringing it up in every thread.

fontaine
10-07-2010, 04:24 AM
As long as we're talking about clear perspective here's what was the number 1 priority (bar none) when McDaniels was hired:

To fix the trenches and make sure we have a real DL instead of the usual scrub parade.

No amount of WRs, QBs, CBs is going to fix that.

Until Josh can address those issues (and we've gone backwards along the OL) I won't be convinced he's the long term solution here.

KevinJames
10-07-2010, 04:51 AM
Author forgot to mention Tony Scheffler trade became Perrish Cox.

Also hopefully that 2011 2nd rounder its up being Noel Divine.

driver
10-07-2010, 04:52 AM
It's not hatred. It's the fact that we aren't any better now than when Shanahan was fired and a good argument can be made that McD is in over his head and we aren't moving in the right direction.

Looks like Bowlen is going to give McD a fair shake at turning this around, but talk is cheap. He needs to start putting up W's.


Maybe it starts this weekend, I really like the effort we've shown on the D.
I always liked the Cutler trade, When Schefter first reported the trade I checked on Orton, Saw he played College ball at Perdue under Joe Tiller, that was good enough for Me.

The rest of the draft/trades were just gravy. The Quinn pick was wierd when we needed Defense so badly, never understood that. The second rd. pick for A smith, OK, then I saw how little he was! Why? with the size and speed of the receivers in the league now.

Durango
10-07-2010, 05:08 AM
Posted by AtwaterMyAss: ..Looks like Bowlen is going to give McD a fair shake at turning this around, but talk is cheap. He needs to start putting up W's.

Posted in response by TailgateNut: Bull****.

Really? McDaniels in fact does have to demonstrate that this hole process is turning around. Like many here, I can't imagine Bowlen even considering firing McDaniels before he gets a legitimate opportunity to mold this franchise into his vision, but a 6-10, 5-11 season this year would have to put Josh squarely on the hot set entering his third season..assuming there is a season in 2011.

El Guapo
10-07-2010, 05:13 AM
Orton is on target for a Pro Bowl appearance.

Which equates to him not being a Bronco in 2011. Oh noes.

Rock Chalk
10-07-2010, 05:18 AM
As long as we're talking about clear perspective here's what was the number 1 priority (bar none) when McDaniels was hired:

To fix the trenches and make sure we have a real DL instead of the usual scrub parade.

No amount of WRs, QBs, CBs is going to fix that.

Until Josh can address those issues (and we've gone backwards along the OL) I won't be convinced he's the long term solution here.

If we are keeping things in perspective about the offensive line let's examine it.

We have 3 of the same 5 starters (Harris, Kuper and Clady). The center he inherited was old and done. I cant even remember who our right Guard was last year. So he got a new center, and got another guard and a backup all-purpose Offensive Line player in Beadles.

Then we lost our offensive line coach to Kubiak through no fault of McDaniels. Kubiak and Dennison have a very long history together. McDaniels wanted to keep both Dennison and Turner (as witnessed by the fact that neither was canned when McD took over). Dennison did well last year with us. Now we have a new offensive line coach teaching a completely different blocking scheme to guys that were drafted for zone blocking abilities.

You can argue that we should not have changed because our red zone run game sucks but it sucked with the ZB scheme for years too.

Keeping it in perspective.

driver
10-07-2010, 05:48 AM
If we are keeping things in perspective about the offensive line let's examine it.

[QUOTE]We have 3 of the same 5 starters (Harris, Kuper and Clady). The center he inherited was old and done. I cant even remember who our right Guard was last year. So he got a new center, and got another guard and a backup all-purpose Offensive Line player in Beadles.

Now we have a new offensive line coach teaching a completely different blocking scheme to guys that were drafted for zone blocking abilities.

That old washed center was Wiegmann he went to the pro bowl as the AFC alt center is now the backup at KC and doing very well.
The right guard was and is KUPER.
The only difference between a power line and a ZB line is speed, The zone players have to be very mobile therefore they are usually smaller. The new guys McD has on the line are all bigger and they are ,impressively quick for their size IMO. But they are also very INEXPERIENCED that problem will be corrected with playing time. My problem with the oline is depth McD hasn't kept enough oline players on the roster again, way too much reliance on his pet Hochsteer, the NE reject.

Mogulseeker
10-07-2010, 05:50 AM
A. At this point, I'd say McD won the Cutler trade.
B. We've moved on to much more annoying things, like a particular white running back.

Mogulseeker
10-07-2010, 05:51 AM
Orton is on target for a Pro Bowl appearance.

At the moment, Orton is on target to break Marino's single-season passing yards record.

driver
10-07-2010, 06:03 AM
At the moment, Orton is on target to break Marino's single-season passing yards record.

Never happen til they go to the 18 game season.LOL

fontaine
10-07-2010, 06:33 AM
If we are keeping things in perspective about the offensive line let's examine it.

We have 3 of the same 5 starters (Harris, Kuper and Clady). The center he inherited was old and done. I cant even remember who our right Guard was last year. So he got a new center, and got another guard and a backup all-purpose Offensive Line player in Beadles.

Then we lost our offensive line coach to Kubiak through no fault of McDaniels. Kubiak and Dennison have a very long history together. McDaniels wanted to keep both Dennison and Turner (as witnessed by the fact that neither was canned when McD took over). Dennison did well last year with us. Now we have a new offensive line coach teaching a completely different blocking scheme to guys that were drafted for zone blocking abilities.

You can argue that we should not have changed because our red zone run game sucks but it sucked with the ZB scheme for years too.

Keeping it in perspective.

There are always going to be bumps on the road.

I'm only interested in the end product because having a real OL/DL directly results in wins.

I don't care how it gets done, what scheme, who left and why, or any other excuses.

Just get it done. I had the same criteria for Mike Shanahan and the same applies to Josh. No doubt, Walton/Beadles are a step in the right direction.

Mediator12
10-07-2010, 07:31 AM
Result? Mediocre .500 football team for McDaniels. McDaniels has a LOT to prove.

Yes, yes he does. Coaches are graded by success in wins or losses, playoffs, and then Titles.

However, the results are not as indicative as watching this team play right now. This team looks a lot better right now than it did in 2008. And, it is still growing on both sides of the ball. I just wish I had the same kind of feeling from the Special teams....

misturanderson
10-07-2010, 08:01 AM
Yes, yes he does. Coaches are graded by success in wins or losses, playoffs, and then Titles.

However, the results are not as indicative as watching this team play right now. This team looks a lot better right now than it did in 2008. And, it is still growing on both sides of the ball. I just wish I had the same kind of feeling from the Special teams....

And that fact is probably most apparent in our losses. Even the blowouts only get out of hand in the final quarter. We no longer go down 21-0 and never make any semblance of a comeback as was extremely common in Shanahan's last 3 years here. We also don't really carry a lead the entire game only to be outscored 21-0 in the 4th quarter to lose the game.

Dedhed
10-07-2010, 08:04 AM
That's a bit of a stretch. Bay Bay is impressive, but he hasn't really done anything yet. Marshall is a BEAST. We'll be very fortunate if Thomas turns out to be his equal. That said, he DOES appear to have all the tools to get the job done.
He's done far more than Marshall had through 4 games in his rookie season, so it doesn't seem like much of a stretch from that angle.

TonyR
10-07-2010, 08:34 AM
Result? Mediocre .500 football team for McDaniels. McDaniels has a LOT to prove.

All true, but I don't know how this in any way takes away from the fact that at the very worst we broke even on the Cutler trade and it appears that we clearly "won" at this point. Why must you go to such lengths to spin things negatively?

_Oro_
10-07-2010, 08:38 AM
McDaniels hasn't won the superbowl yet so he sucks until then.

Dagmar
10-07-2010, 08:43 AM
Reposted from; http://www.milehighreport.com/2010/9/9/1679665/the-cutler-trade


This may have been posted, if so it bares repeating.

http://orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=93621

You posted 4 times on the 1st page.

Going senile baja?

;D

crazyhorse
10-07-2010, 10:03 AM
The only way you have come out ahead is in numbers. The team is not as good as before he started moving players IMO. I will confess that the jury is still out on some of those draft picks. The. Broncos move the ball okay but don't score many points.

CEH
10-07-2010, 10:12 AM
I like Josh's vision and direction but it's going to come down to wins and losses and wheher the FO can evaluate the draft well enough to implement his plan

Well see how well JD Walton and Beadle develop over the next year but I'd say these two guys need to become the tough physical players he wants up front

I'd alsos like to see him invest in young Dlineman

DenverBrit
10-07-2010, 10:21 AM
Which equates to him not being a Bronco in 2011. Oh noes.

He signed an extension through 2011....no?

DenverBrit
10-07-2010, 10:23 AM
Result? Mediocre .500 football team for McDaniels. McDaniels has a LOT to prove.

After one season, he proved to be no better than Shanny......even though he tore the team apart. ;D

jhns
10-07-2010, 10:42 AM
The fact that you all need to tell yourselves that we won the trade 5 times a day just proves that you don't believe what you are saying. Reality is, it is impossible to say right now and there won't be an answer for about 5-10 years. I would say McDaniels needs to at least improve his record before anyone can say he has done something right. Talk is cheap. Prove it on the field.

bronclvr
10-07-2010, 10:47 AM
Geez, give the guy a little time to turn this Ship, he only has so many bullets each year, and I think he did pretty well with the ones he had-

Shanny had this Team for what-13 Years? His last three years he went 9-7, 7-9, and 8-8-McD is doing no worse-

Lev Vyvanse
10-07-2010, 10:55 AM
He signed an extension through 2011....no?

He was saying Josh gets rid of Pro-bowl players.

BroncsRule
10-07-2010, 10:56 AM
And that fact is probably most apparent in our losses. Even the blowouts only get out of hand in the final quarter. We no longer go down 21-0 and never make any semblance of a comeback as was extremely common in Shanahan's last 3 years here. We also don't really carry a lead the entire game only to be outscored 21-0 in the 4th quarter to lose the game.

Well there was the Ravens game last year. While we didn't go down by 21, we did give up the runback on the 2nd half kickoff to go down 13-0, and eventually lost by 23 - and it wasn't actually even that close..

..There was the pwning by che Chuggers - down 20-3 at the start of the 4th quarter.


And then of course there was the debacle against KC.

So, yeah, except for all those times we've been out of it for pretty much the whole game, it's completely different from Shanny's last 3 years.

jhns
10-07-2010, 10:59 AM
Geez, give the guy a little time to turn this Ship, he only has so many bullets each year, and I think he did pretty well with the ones he had-

Shanny had this Team for what-13 Years? His last three years he went 9-7, 7-9, and 8-8-McD is doing no worse-

Which is why it is also to early to call him a failure.

Anyways, that production got an all time Bronco great (Shanahan) fired. I don't see how the "he is doing no worse than Shanahan" is a good excuse. Shanahan also turned the Broncos around by his second year as head coach. Yes, they had Elway. Now look at what this teams record was when he took over. He turned that into the most ever wins over a three season span (starting with his second season). I would watch comparing McDaniels to Shanahan.

BroncsRule
10-07-2010, 11:04 AM
The fact that you all need to tell yourselves that we won the trade 5 times a day just proves that you don't believe what you are saying. Reality is, it is impossible to say right now and there won't be an answer for about 5-10 years. I would say McDaniels needs to at least improve his record before anyone can say he has done something right. Talk is cheap. Prove it on the field.

I can't help but go back to last Sunday.. Orton and Cutty were both presented with a very similar situation on Sunday - both their O-lines were getting absolutely owned at the LOS from the first snap..

Orton said to himself: "holy crap!! I'm gonna have to get rid of the ball quick today!" ..and he persevered - even thrived.

And Cutler.. did not.

I don't need to wait 5 more years. I'm ready to call it. We raped Chicago.

DenverBrit
10-07-2010, 11:06 AM
He was saying Josh gets rid of Pro-bowl players.

Ah, ok. I wonder what we'll get for him then.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-07-2010, 11:13 AM
Result? Mediocre .500 football team for McDaniels. McDaniels has a LOT to prove.

Oh good. You're back.

Thankfully, you're not running the team so McDaniels also has a LOT of time.

Kaylore
10-07-2010, 11:15 AM
It's not hatred. It's the fact that we aren't any better now than when Shanahan was fired
I absolutely disagree. On offense, it's a lateral move with one major exception, we don't turn the ball over nearly as much. So we're playing smarter there. Production is similar, with a crap load of yards and mediocre scoring, which I agree is unacceptable.

Special teams still sucks but it is better as far the actual kickers are. Coverage needs help but at least the returns are much better than under Shanahan. We have scored more TD's on returns than we did in a ten year span under Shanahan. Our average on returns is better too.

Most of all, though. Defense. Not only are we getting turnovers and shutting down their top players, but we aren't committing horrible mistakes or playing stupid. We also tackle very well, something we haven't done since Coyer was here.

We are a deeper team, we are a smarter team, and I think we are a better team, though not by a great deal.

Now at the end of the day, is .500 going to get it done? No. And special teams returns need to improve, scoring needs to improve, rushing needs to improve, short yardage needs to improve, and most of all, wins need to improve. However despite a hodge-podge offensive line and no running backs we're the number 5 ranked total offense, 1st in passing, and our D is in the mid teens after losing it's bets player to injury. So yes, we are better.

A lot of the Shanahan apologists main points were "We have an offense we can fix the defense later in the draft and with a running game." Well that's pretty much the same circumstances. I personally think we need to do better now, but I'm surprised how hypocritical people are being.

Kaylore
10-07-2010, 11:16 AM
The only way you have come out ahead is in numbers. The team is not as good as before he started moving players IMO.
False.

Rock Chalk
10-07-2010, 11:22 AM
Scoring offense is 11th in the league. Better than what Shanny left us.

Rabb
10-07-2010, 11:25 AM
Scoring offense is 11th in the league. Better than what Shanny left us.

Totally agreed, and I cannot wait for the yards versus scoring convo that is sure to ensue

Rabb
10-07-2010, 11:25 AM
I absolutely disagree. On offense, it's a lateral move with one major exception, we don't turn the ball over nearly as much. So we're playing smarter there. Production is similar, with a crap load of yards and mediocre scoring, which I agree is unacceptable.

Special teams still sucks but it is better as far the actual kickers are. Coverage needs help but at least the returns are much better than under Shanahan. We have scored more TD's on returns than we did in a ten year span under Shanahan. Our average on returns is better too.

Most of all, though. Defense. Not only are we getting turnovers and shutting down their top players, but we aren't committing horrible mistakes or playing stupid. We also tackle very well, something we haven't done since Coyer was here.

We are a deeper team, we are a smarter team, and I think we are a better team, though not by a great deal.

Now at the end of the day, is .500 going to get it done? No. And special teams returns need to improve, scoring needs to improve, rushing needs to improve, short yardage needs to improve, and most of all, wins need to improve. However despite a hodge-podge offensive line and no running backs we're the number 5 ranked total offense, 1st in passing, and our D is in the mid teens after losing it's bets player to injury. So yes, we are better.

A lot of the Shanahan apologists main points were "We have an offense we can fix the defense later in the draft and with a running game." Well that's pretty much the same circumstances. I personally think we need to do better now, but I'm surprised how hypocritical people are being.

:thanku:

Chris
10-07-2010, 11:36 AM
Eric Decker reminds me of a smaller Dallas Clark. Because he's white.

HAT
10-07-2010, 11:44 AM
Shanahan also turned the Broncos around by his second year as head coach. Yes, they had Elway. Now look at what this teams record was when he took over. He turned that into the most ever wins over a three season span (starting with his second season). I would watch comparing McDaniels to Shanahan.

Denver won 39 regular season games during Shanny's 2nd-4th years.

Denver will win at least 36 regular season games during McD's 2nd-4th years.

Not bad considering the latter didn't inherit a HOF QB.

misturanderson
10-07-2010, 11:44 AM
Well there was the Ravens game last year. While we didn't go down by 21, we did give up the runback on the 2nd half kickoff to go down 13-0, and eventually lost by 23 - and it wasn't actually even that close..

..There was the pwning by che Chuggers - down 20-3 at the start of the 4th quarter.


And then of course there was the debacle against KC.

So, yeah, except for all those times we've been out of it for pretty much the whole game, it's completely different from Shanny's last 3 years.

The chargers game was a direct result of having to play our backup QB, who sucked. And it still wasn't a 40-3 shelacking that would have been expected in those circumstances under Shanny (DET 2007 and NE 2008 ring a bell?). Yes the chiefs and ravens games were bad, but we weren't out of them until the 4th quarter in either of those games. More than can be said about the Carolina, NE, 2nd SD games of 2008, or both SD games or the DET game in 2007.

strafen
10-07-2010, 11:48 AM
The chargers game was a direct result of having to play our backup QB, who sucked. And it still wasn't a 40-3 shelacking that would have been expected in those circumstances under Shanny (DET 2007 and NE 2008 ring a bell?). Yes the chiefs and ravens games were bad, but we weren't out of them until the 4th quarter in either of those games. More than can be said about the Carolina, NE, 2nd SD games of 2008, or both SD games or the DET game in 2007.Are you related to MVPlaya'?!
If not, is pretty darned close. I can't tell you both apart by your incredible naive homerism style...

jhns
10-07-2010, 11:51 AM
I can't help but go back to last Sunday.. Orton and Cutty were both presented with a very similar situation on Sunday - both their O-lines were getting absolutely owned at the LOS from the first snap..

Orton said to himself: "holy crap!! I'm gonna have to get rid of the ball quick today!" ..and he persevered - even thrived.

And Cutler.. did not.

I don't need to wait 5 more years. I'm ready to call it. We raped Chicago.

LOL

Now go watch Cutlers other games. He had one bad game where he got injured and couldn't make up for it at the end. He also has two fourth quarter comebacks and a higher QB rating, with much less talent around him on offense. His team is 3-1 with the one loss being the game Cutler got injured, only helping prove he is a big part of the 3 wins.

This isn't what makes your argumet dumb though. What makes your argument dumb is the fact that most every player involved in these trades will be around for many more years. If McDaniels keeps up his .500 record, he won't be around. What happens when Orton isn't putting up nearly as good of numbers in someone elses system and Cutler is competing for SBs. Not one person, outside of dumbasses, will be saying we won.

Again, this talk is worthless. You guys can claim McDaniels is as smart as you want. It won't make a difference if he doesn't improve his record a lot.

jhns
10-07-2010, 11:54 AM
Denver won 39 regular season games during Shanny's 2nd-4th years.

Denver will win at least 36 regular season games during McD's 2nd-4th years.

Not bad considering the latter didn't inherit a HOF QB.

That is great and all but again, talk is worthless. Let's see him do it and I'll be impressed. No one will be able to say a single bad thing about McDaniels if you are right.

HAT
10-07-2010, 11:56 AM
I'm always right.












































See how annoying that is?

ZONA
10-07-2010, 12:00 PM
It's not hatred. It's the fact that we aren't any better now than when Shanahan was fired and a good argument can be made that McD is in over his head and we aren't moving in the right direction.

Looks like Bowlen is going to give McD a fair shake at turning this around, but talk is cheap. He needs to start putting up W's.

See, you have it wrong. The record right now is about the same under Josh as it was under Shanny in his last years. But Josh is 4 games into his 2nd year, Shanny had 10+ years to put what he wanted on the field. Josh was so busy his first year dumping Shanny trash, his first year almost doesn't even count. Of course Bowlen is going to give Josh a real shake at this. He knows you don't turn bad teams around in 1 year or 2 years. The benchamrk in the NFL seems to be 3 years. If you can't start making the playoffs in that 3rd year or at least be close to making them, then you need to look at the coach. I think Josh is starting to put the puzzle together here and with another good draft and FA this offseason, I think we will be in great shape to knock out SD and take this division back.

jhns
10-07-2010, 12:03 PM
I'm always right.

See how annoying that is?

You just claimed to be Mrs. Cleo. What exactly were you expecting as a response? "He won a bunch of games for us in the future? Nice. McDaniels really has proven everyone wrong!"

Missouribronc
10-07-2010, 12:11 PM
You just claimed to be Mrs. Cleo. What exactly were you expecting as a response? "He won a bunch of games for us in the future? Nice. McDaniels really has proven everyone wrong!"

You mean like assuming Cutler will compete for Super Bowls in the future?

:thumbs:

What happens when Orton isn't putting up nearly as good of numbers in someone elses system and Cutler is competing for SBs.

HAT
10-07-2010, 12:13 PM
You just claimed to be Mrs. Cleo. What exactly were you expecting as a response? "He won a bunch of games for us in the future? Nice. McDaniels really has proven everyone wrong!"

I will let someone else explain post #59 to you.....Oh nevermind. MizzBronc just did.

:thumbs:

jhns
10-07-2010, 12:17 PM
You mean like assuming Cutler will compete for Super Bowls in the future?

:thumbs:

Sorry, that was supposed to be a what if scenerio. If it sounds like I am making predictions, that wasn't my intent. I was just pointing out that there are scenerios, and lots of them, that would make us the losers in the trade. This being true even though Orton played better in one game, which was the other posters evidence that we won the trade.

snowspot66
10-07-2010, 12:23 PM
Scoring offense is 11th in the league. Better than what Shanny left us.

Really? 11th? Not bad. We could very easily have another 14 or 21 more points on that total too if we stop beating ourselves with poor execution.

jhns
10-07-2010, 12:24 PM
You mean like assuming Cutler will compete for Super Bowls in the future?

:thumbs:

Actually, screw what I just said. It is very clear that I was not making a prediction. You just edited out the part that establishes the if scenerio. You guys can't be this dumb....

HAT
10-07-2010, 12:26 PM
I am actually making the prediction.....That pretty much means it has a better than even chance of happening.

BroncsRule
10-07-2010, 12:29 PM
What happens when Orton isn't putting up nearly as good of numbers in someone elses system..?

You do realise this is an admission on your part that McD is a good coach, right?


Cutty might be competing for superbowl TICKETS for years to come, but as a QB, he'll be out of the league in 2 years..

jhns
10-07-2010, 12:33 PM
You do realise this is an admission on your part that McD is a good coach, right?


I have never said McDaniels is a bad coach. I think Shanahan is one of the best coaches that has ever been in this sport and I was all for him being fired.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-07-2010, 12:36 PM
Eric Decker reminds me of a smaller Dallas Clark. Because he's white.

Yeah, but he doesn't wear #44. Probably because it's retired.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-07-2010, 12:38 PM
Man, I just don't understand the desire to have the team fail because of a personal dislike for the coach. That just makes no sense to me whatsoever.

But whatever. To each his own.

jhns
10-07-2010, 12:41 PM
Man, I just don't understand the desire to have the team fail because of a personal dislike for the coach. That just makes no sense to me whatsoever.

But whatever. To each his own.

Football take?

CEH
10-07-2010, 12:55 PM
Scoring offense is 11th in the league. Better than what Shanny left us.

True in terms of relative position but the '08 offense is averaging 2 points more per game which is pretty huge. Plus we are only talking 4 games so far. Alot of margin to move up or down

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-07-2010, 12:59 PM
Football take?

Yep. We're still waiting.

Why don't you root for the team, jizz? Never once have you said, "I don't like Josh, but I hope I'm wrong and he does get this thing going again," or anything even remotely close to that.

Why? You'd rather see McD fail. Just seems odd to me.

Eldorado
10-07-2010, 01:07 PM
Yes he has.

jhns
10-07-2010, 01:08 PM
Yep. We're still waiting.

Why don't you root for the team, jizz? Never once have you said, "I don't like Josh, but I hope I'm wrong and he does get this thing going again," or anything even remotely close to that.

Why? You'd rather see McD fail. Just seems odd to me.

Football take?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-07-2010, 01:08 PM
Yes he has.

Oh? Link?

Unlike SOME people, I can man up when I'm wrong. Show me.

Eldorado
10-07-2010, 01:16 PM
Oh? Link?

Unlike SOME people, I can man up when I'm wrong. Show me.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2904673&postcount=122


I don't care for the move but it's McDaniels putting his career in Ortons hands. Win/win for me. Either they are awsome and the Broncos win or McDaniels gets fired.

Florida_Bronco
10-07-2010, 01:25 PM
We are a deeper team, we are a smarter team, and I think we are a better team, though not by a great deal.

If this team played the 2008 Broncos, the 2010 would slaughter the 2008 team.

24champ
10-07-2010, 01:28 PM
If this team played the 2008 Broncos, the 2010 would slaughter the 2008 team.

Yup. It would be similar to the Patriot beatdown we received from McDaniels/Cassel in 2008. I believe it was 41-7...we got throttled.

Florida_Bronco
10-07-2010, 01:31 PM
Yup. It would be similar to the Patriot beatdown we received from McDaniels/Cassel in 2008. I believe it was 41-7...we got throttled.

Ahh yes. That night was brutal.

Eldorado
10-07-2010, 01:34 PM
If this team played the 2008 Broncos, the 2010 would slaughter the 2008 team.

Maybe, It depends on how we handle the zone blocking running. Could be 41-24. We'll find out Dec 26.

Eldorado
10-07-2010, 01:36 PM
We might crack 60 against the D, really.

Orton>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cassel

Florida_Bronco
10-07-2010, 01:38 PM
Maybe, It depends on how we handle the zone blocking running. Could be 41-24. We'll find out Dec 26.

We just held Chris Johnson to 60 yards rushing. I doubt the 2008 Broncos could have thrown anything at us that would have been effective.

24champ
10-07-2010, 01:40 PM
Maybe, It depends on how we handle the zone blocking running. Could be 41-24. We'll find out Dec 26.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Seattle employs the zone blocking scheme and we did pretty well in that game a few weeks ago.

Eldorado
10-07-2010, 01:40 PM
We just held Chris Johnson to 60 yards rushing. I doubt the 2008 Broncos could have thrown anything at us that would have been effective.

Very, very true. Sometimes those zbs just tear up a 3-4, though. Remember Green Bay? :wiggle:

Florida_Bronco
10-07-2010, 01:43 PM
Very, very true. Sometimes those zbs just tear up a 3-4, though. Remember Green Bay? :wiggle:

If you're talking about the Super Bowl, Green Bay was still a 4-3 team then.

Eldorado
10-07-2010, 01:43 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but Seattle employs the zone blocking scheme and we did pretty well in that game a few weeks ago.

We gave up 5.5 ypc and they only ran it 20 times because they were down 17-0 at halftime.

Eldorado
10-07-2010, 01:45 PM
If you're talking about the Super Bowl, Green Bay was still a 4-3 team then.

Oh, that's right. I'm sure there was a 3-4 team somewhere in that tear that we rolled through.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-07-2010, 01:52 PM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2904673&postcount=122

Meh. That's close enough, I suppose.

Thank goodness Jizz' legal guardian is here.

Eldorado
10-07-2010, 01:56 PM
Meh. That's close enough, I suppose.

Thank goodness Jizz' legal guardian is here.

I know. Pretty weak.

Actually I was looking out for you, dude. The last time you were trolling jhns it got out of hand pretty bad. The guy is a hater. **** him.

24champ
10-07-2010, 02:04 PM
We gave up 5.5 ypc and they only ran it 20 times because they were down 17-0 at halftime.

They had a good first drive and then crapped the bed in typical ZBS fashion inside the 20. I can't recall the last time a ZBS team won a super bowl. It was time to move on....

Missouribronc
10-07-2010, 02:06 PM
I can't recall the last time a ZBS team won a super bowl.

You should remember it. Rod Smith caught a touchdown on the first play from scrimmage.

Eldorado
10-07-2010, 02:10 PM
They had a good first drive and then crapped the bed in typical ZBS fashion inside the 20. I can't recall the last time a ZBS team won a super bowl. It was time to move on....

erm. I can.

btw, just to be clear here, I love the way this team is heading. I love defense and it's now a priority. I like the way the offense is heading. If they can get 3-4 yards rushing consistently on 1st or 2nd and convert 3rd and 1's with regularity, this could be a dominant O.

24champ
10-07-2010, 02:10 PM
You should remember it. Rod Smith caught a touchdown on the first play from scrimmage.

I meant the last team other than the broncos. Obviously with many fans pining for the old system, don't realize that it's not part if the winning formula anymore.

Missouribronc
10-07-2010, 02:13 PM
I meant the last team other than the broncos. Obviously with many fans pining for the old system, don't realize that it's not part if the winning formula anymore.

Oh, I agree with you, it was time for the ZBS to be deconstructed and reevaluated, which is exactly what McDaniels has done.

ZachKC
10-07-2010, 02:13 PM
2. It appears that Bay Bay will be at least as great a threat as Marshall without the baggage.



Robert Ayers ( has superstar written all over him)



:rofl:

Lev Vyvanse
10-07-2010, 02:15 PM
They had a good first drive and then crapped the bed in typical ZBS fashion inside the 20. I can't recall the last time a ZBS team won a super bowl. It was time to move on....

Indy just a few years ago.

vancejohnson82
10-07-2010, 02:16 PM
:rofl:

cmon...it is a Broncos message board, dude

Lev Vyvanse
10-07-2010, 02:17 PM
:rofl:

Have you watch any of the Broncos games this year? He is dominating vs the run and his pass rush is getting better as well.

ZachKC
10-07-2010, 02:18 PM
Have you watch any of the Broncos games this year? He is dominating vs the run and his pass rush is getting better as well.

I don't think he is a bad player at all.

24champ
10-07-2010, 02:23 PM
Indy just a few years ago.

Was it a full time scheme or just part time? I always thought they ran a different scheme?

Lev Vyvanse
10-07-2010, 02:26 PM
Was it a full time scheme or just part time? I always thought they ran a different scheme?

Indy is a full time ZB team.

Blueflame
10-07-2010, 02:26 PM
What has he not done that in your opinion he should he have done?

Uh... maybe win more than 4 of our last 14 games? ???

Bottom line is wins.

Blueflame
10-07-2010, 02:29 PM
Yes, yes he does. Coaches are graded by success in wins or losses, playoffs, and then Titles.

However, the results are not as indicative as watching this team play right now. This team looks a lot better right now than it did in 2008. And, it is still growing on both sides of the ball. I just wish I had the same kind of feeling from the Special teams....

Couldn't agree with this more. Special teams play has been very questionable this year.

24champ
10-07-2010, 02:31 PM
Uh... maybe win more than 4 of our last 14 games? ???

Bottom line is wins.

Why are we cherry picking stats? The last 14 games?


How convenient.

HAT
10-07-2010, 02:31 PM
Uh... maybe win more than 4 of our last 14 games? ???

Bottom line is wins.

So if a team goes 0-8 to start a year, finishes 8-0, goes 8-0 to start the next year & finishes 0-8........

You would be happy with a 16 game 'win streak'?

Of course not. It's just back to back .500 seasons.

WTF does winning "4 of our last 14" have to do with anything?

Hint: About as much as winning 2 of their last 3.

Florida_Bronco
10-07-2010, 02:33 PM
So if a team goes 0-8 to start a year, finishes 8-0, goes 8-0 to start the next year & finishes 0-8........

You would be happy with a 16 game 'win streak'?

Of course not. It's just back to back .500 seasons.

WTF does winning "4 of our last 14" have to do with anything?

Hint: About as much as winning 2 of their last 3.

She's still pissed about the Patriot connection.

Blueflame
10-07-2010, 02:34 PM
McDaniels hasn't taken the team to the playoffs yet so he hasn't proven himself until then.

Fixed it for you.

HAT
10-07-2010, 02:35 PM
She's still pissed about the Patriot connection.

I'd suggest she & MaloCS console each other about it but we know how he feels about 'out of town' Denver fans. It would never work. ;D

Blueflame
10-07-2010, 02:36 PM
Why are we cherry picking stats? The last 14 games?


How convenient.

Um... my first comment was "mediocre .500 football". Baja asked me specifically what I wanted McDaniels to do and my reply was to win more.

Amazing that one gets dogpiled around here for wanting the team to win more games.

HAT
10-07-2010, 02:38 PM
Amazing that one gets dogpiled around here for wanting the team to win more games.

No worries Blue......36 wins from McD's 2nd-4th years. You heard it hear first. :blueflame

Steve Sewell
10-07-2010, 02:38 PM
It's not hatred.

You're right, it's short sightedness.

It's the fact that we aren't any better now than when Shanahan was fired

Case in point.

and a good argument can be made that McD is in over his head and we aren't moving in the right direction.

Let's hear it, then. Keep in mind while formulating your argument that the Broncos were a .500 team during Shanahan's last two years, with 1 playoff win in the previous decade. Keep in mind that a .500 record was maintained while turning over and rebuilding a large percentage of the roster. Keep in mind that most rebuilding teams suffer through 4-12 and 5-11 seasons.

I'll be waiting.

Looks like Bowlen is going to give McD a fair shake at turning this around, but talk is cheap. He needs to start putting up W's.

Isn't it ironic that the guy financially backing the multi-million dollar business is willing to give a coach "a fair shake", but fans who have no financial responsibility to the business are not?

This just speaks to how dumb and unrealistic some Broncos fans are.

misturanderson
10-07-2010, 02:40 PM
Have you watch any of the Broncos games this year? He is dominating vs the run and his pass rush is getting better as well.

Obviously he hasn't been watching the Broncos or he'd know better. Ayers hasn't gotten any pub on any national networks, so how would anyone that didn't see the games know better?

Blueflame
10-07-2010, 02:41 PM
No worries Blue......36 wins from McD's 2nd-4th years. You heard it hear first. :blueflame

Good. I hope you're right.

24champ
10-07-2010, 02:42 PM
Amazing that one gets dogpiled around here

You get dogpiled because you have blind hatred for anything related to the Patriots. Get over it, McD is a Bronco.

Florida_Bronco
10-07-2010, 02:44 PM
You get dogpiled because you have blind hatred for anything related to the Patriots. Get over it, McD is a Bronco.

Did anyone see her reaction to the Maroney trade? I bet that brought on a meltdown.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-07-2010, 02:48 PM
You get dogpiled because you have blind hatred for anything related to the Patriots. Get over it, McD is a Bronco.

And because she's got a scantily clad skank in her avy.

I'd dogpile her.

baja
10-07-2010, 03:31 PM
Uh... maybe win more than 4 of our last 14 games? ???

Bottom line is wins.

It's pretty clear you have a hate agenda when you go back to just after he won six in a row to show your very deceiving won lose record. If you are going to use his won loss record as a gauge to his success as a Bronco why not use his full record as a Bronco.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-07-2010, 03:54 PM
It's pretty clear you have a hate agenda when you go back to just after he won six in a row to show your very deceiving won lose record. If you are going to use his won loss record as a gauge to his success as a Bronco why not use his full record as a Bronco.

Because it undermines her "point." Duh.

Blueflame
10-07-2010, 03:55 PM
It's pretty clear you have a hate agenda when you go back to just after he won six in a row to show your very deceiving won lose record. If you are going to use his won loss record as a gauge to his success as a Bronco why not use his full record as a Bronco.

How is it "hate" just to want to win? It will take better than .500 in his sophomore season as HC to convince me that McDaniels is ready to be a HC, that's all. I'll remain in the "unconvinced; jury's-still-out-on-him" fan demographic until he proves himself.

It ain't about me or my opinions, Baja... it's about the coach and whether or not he can make this team win.

Blueflame
10-07-2010, 03:59 PM
Because it undermines her "point." Duh.

Um... again, my original point was that we still have mediocre, .500 football in Denver.

And 4 wins out of the last 14 games is (unfortunately) a fact; not a "talking point".

Rabb
10-07-2010, 04:01 PM
it's actually 10 wins out of the last 20, but who's counting

Eldorado
10-07-2010, 04:05 PM
2 out of the last 3.

Blueflame
10-07-2010, 04:19 PM
This year it's 2-2. Or mediocre .500 football.

baja
10-07-2010, 04:20 PM
How is it "hate" just to want to win? It will take better than .500 in his sophomore season as HC to convince me that McDaniels is ready to be a HC, that's all. I'll remain in the "unconvinced; jury's-still-out-on-him" fan demographic until he proves himself.

It ain't about me or my opinions, Baja... it's about the coach and whether or not he can make this team win.


Look Blue you and go back a long way but when you use a stat like your's (14 and 4) you're not fooling even one person on this board. That's just troll level posting and for you to then come back and say all sweet and nice "I jut want to win" is insulting. Look if you want to post like a troll than you should quit as a mod because they don't really fit together.

McDaniels is 10 and 10 and the team is getting better and better.

14 and 4 geez do you think anyone here is going to fall for that poor attempt at working the stats. You've fallen to a status lower than guys like Jins and I hate to see that Blue. Really sad.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-07-2010, 04:20 PM
This year it's 2-2. Or mediocre .500 football.

2/3. Look at that! I can cherry-pick, too!

Br0nc0Buster
10-07-2010, 04:22 PM
This year it's 2-2. Or mediocre .500 football.

10-0 in last 15 min.

Br0nc0Buster
10-07-2010, 04:25 PM
anywho at this point I am very pleased with the bundle from the Cutler trade

and its possible that trade keeps on giving if we decide to flip Kyle for some picks down the road if/when Josh wants to hand the reigns to demigod Tebow

Blueflame
10-07-2010, 04:29 PM
Look Blue you and go back a long way but when you use a stat like your's (14 and 4) you're not fooling even one person on this board. That's just troll level posting and for you to then come back and say all sweet and nice "I jut want to win" is insulting. Look if you want to post like a troll than you should quit as a mod because they don't really fit together.

McDaniels is 10 and 10 and the team is getting better and better.

14 and 4 geez do you think anyone here is going to fall for that poor attempt at working the stats. You've fallen to a status lower than guys like Jins and I hate to see that Blue. Really sad.

Y'know, Baja... one would think here on a Broncos board... that we all would want more wins.

And my moderator status here does not mean that I am not just as entitled to an opinion as the next fan. It does mean that you cannot place me on ignore.... however, I can choose not to respond to your posts anymore and at this point that sounds like a very good idea. Adieu, mon ami.

baja
10-07-2010, 04:29 PM
anywho at this point I am very pleased with the bundle from the Cutler trade

and its possible that trade keeps on giving if we decide to flip Kyle for some picks down the road if/when Josh wants to hand the reigns to demigod Tebow

A few weeks ago I got laughed out of the joint for saying we would trade Orton for a 1st round pick. Doesn't seem so far fetched now does it. One well respected poster went so far as to say if we ever got a 1st rd pick for Orton he'd suck 10,000 cox.

baja
10-07-2010, 04:32 PM
Y'know, Baja... one would think here on a Broncos board... that we all would want more wins.

And my moderator status here does not mean that I am not just as entitled to an opinion as the next fan. It does mean that you cannot place me on ignore.... however, I can choose not to respond to your posts anymore and at this point that sounds like a very good idea. Adieu, mon ami.

Fine but that ain't going to solve your blind hate problem.

Dagmar
10-07-2010, 04:34 PM
I listened to the ESPN football today podcast today and Adam Schefter co hosted. He claimed we got the better QB but had wasted the picks on Smith and Ayers. I was sad to see someone as good as Schefter so uninformed.

Br0nc0Buster
10-07-2010, 04:39 PM
I listened to the ESPN football today podcast today and Adam Schefter co hosted. He claimed we got the better QB but had wasted the picks on Smith and Ayers. I was sad to see someone as good as Schefter so uninformed.

he works for ESPN now, his assimilation into retardation is almost complete

misturanderson
10-07-2010, 04:52 PM
I listened to the ESPN football today podcast today and Adam Schefter co hosted. He claimed we got the better QB but had wasted the picks on Smith and Ayers. I was sad to see someone as good as Schefter so uninformed.

I wonder if he's losing connections to the Broncos with much of the former coaching staff and front office no longer working there.

OABB
10-07-2010, 05:15 PM
Blue proves the point that being critical doesn't make you a moron if you can back it up with sound logic and no emotional bias.

24champ
10-07-2010, 05:31 PM
Um... again, my original point was that we still have mediocre, .500 football in Denver.


So how many of your posts back in the Shanny days are there of you being critical of his "mediocre .500 football" brand? I wonder if you were this critical back in the day...

Blueflame
10-07-2010, 05:38 PM
Blue proves the point that being critical doesn't make you a moron if you can back it up with sound logic and no emotional bias.

And you prove no points whatsoever, so.... ;D

Blueflame
10-07-2010, 05:46 PM
So how many of your posts back in the Shanny days are there of you being critical of his "mediocre .500 football" brand? I wonder if you were this critical back in the day...

Moot point... the Mane wasn't around in Shanahan's first or second year of coaching. And after 2 championships, there was no longer any question that a Shanahan-coached team could win. However... in his first and second years of coaching the Broncos, I was not convinced that Wade Phillips was ready to be a HC even though he was a very good DC. For that matter, one can still question Wade...

Steve Sewell
10-07-2010, 06:18 PM
Moot point... the Mane wasn't around in Shanahan's first or second year of coaching. And after 2 championships, there was no longer any question that a Shanahan-coached team could win. However... in his first and second years of coaching the Broncos, I was not convinced that Wade Phillips was ready to be a HC even though he was a very good DC. For that matter, one can still question Wade...

Your point regarding Phillips is absurd. Any Bronco fan with even moderate brain activity knew that Phillips was more of an interim, caretaker option for coach until Shanahan was ready to take the reigns. Are you suggesting that McDaniels has taken the same role?

God damn I'm sick of people talking about Shanahan and former Broncos players on this board. Its so moronic its not even funny.

OMG did u no dat Shanahanz only one 6 of his last 15 gamez?!?!? OMG

oubronco
10-07-2010, 06:41 PM
Fine but that ain't going to solve your blind hate problem.

Just because she wants to take a wait and see approach you gotta bag on her with the superfan BS that's pretty weak dude

Tombstone RJ
10-07-2010, 06:50 PM
I'll own up the the "superfan" title. Eat schite beeeatches.

jsco70
10-07-2010, 06:53 PM
Moot point... the Mane wasn't around in Shanahan's first or second year of coaching. And after 2 championships, there was no longer any question that a Shanahan-coached team could win. However... in his first and second years of coaching the Broncos, I was not convinced that Wade Phillips was ready to be a HC even though he was a very good DC. For that matter, one can still question Wade...

Who cares about his first year. What about the last three years of his tenure? Those seasons in particular were extremely frustrating and even more so because Shanahan was regarded as the "Mastermind." How critical of him were you for the neverending stream of poor free agents, weak defensive coordinators, second half game and season collapses, etc? I believe McD deserves from credit for dismantling the team and rebuilding it how he wants. It looks very promising from my perspective despite some obvious issues.

Anyway, this entire debate is, as you put it a "moot point." Shanahan is gone, McD is coaching this team and will continue to do so for at least the next two seasons. You might enjoy it more if you make an effort to be positive. Pining for the glory days gone by won't help.

24champ
10-07-2010, 06:56 PM
Who cares about his first year. What about the last three years of his tenure? Those seasons in particular were extremely frustrating and even more so because Shanahan was regarded as the "Mastermind." How critical of him were you for the neverending stream of poor free agents, weak defensive coordinators, second half game and season collapses, etc? I believe McD deserves from credit for dismantling the team and rebuilding it how he wants. It looks very promising from my perspective despite some obvious issues.

Anyway, this entire debate is, as you put it a "moot point." Shanahan is gone, McD is coaching this team and will continue to do so for at least the next two seasons. You might enjoy it more if you make an effort to be positive. Pining for the glory days gone by won't help.

This.

Tombstone RJ
10-07-2010, 06:56 PM
Who cares about his first year. What about the last three years of his tenure? Those seasons in particular were extremely frustrating and even more so because Shanahan was regarded as the "Mastermind." How critical of him were you for the neverending stream of poor free agents, weak defensive coordinators, second half game and season collapses, etc? I believe McD deserves from credit for dismantling the team and rebuilding it how he wants. It looks very promising from my perspective despite some obvious issues.

Anyway, this entire debate is, as you put it a "moot point." Shanahan is gone, McD is coaching this team and will continue to do so for at least the next two seasons. You might enjoy it more if you make an effort to be positive. Pining for the glory days gone by won't help.

you're good, but you're no superfan...

baja
10-07-2010, 07:08 PM
Just because she wants to take a wait and see approach you gotta bag on her with the superfan BS that's pretty weak dude

If you think she is anywhere near a passive wait & see frame of mind than you haven't been paying attention. I have shared this board with Blue for nearly ten years, I like her very much and enjoyed many great back and forth discussions on football and much more but she is letting her extreme prejudice for anything Patriots close her mind to any good Josh might have done. She doesn't seem willing to at least give him a chance to build his team. Hate will do that. Personally I would like to have my old Blue back.

jsco70
10-07-2010, 07:08 PM
you're good, but you're no superfan...

Well, I'm trying. But I did finally hit 300 posts after four years of membership.

I'm pacing myself. 8')

Arkie
10-07-2010, 07:16 PM
4 wins out of the last 14 games is a valid statistic. Especially since those 4 wins were against 4 teams that missed the playoffs and weren't even above .500

10-10 would look better if he lost his first 6 games, and then won 10 out of the last 14. The team would be improving.

baja
10-07-2010, 07:16 PM
Who cares about his first year. What about the last three years of his tenure? Those seasons in particular were extremely frustrating and even more so because Shanahan was regarded as the "Mastermind." How critical of him were you for the neverending stream of poor free agents, weak defensive coordinators, second half game and season collapses, etc? I believe McD deserves from credit for dismantling the team and rebuilding it how he wants. It looks very promising from my perspective despite some obvious issues.

Anyway, this entire debate is, as you put it a "moot point." Shanahan is gone, McD is coaching this team and will continue to do so for at least the next two seasons. You might enjoy it more if you make an effort to be positive. Pining for the glory days gone by won't help.

What was the deal breaker for me was the fact that he lost his team those last three years. I was embarrassed for those teams

jsco70
10-07-2010, 08:12 PM
4 wins out of the last 14 games is a valid statistic. Especially since those 4 wins were against 4 teams that missed the playoffs and weren't even above .500

10-10 would look better if he lost his first 6 games, and then won 10 out of the last 14. The team would be improving.

I understand where you are coming from. However, I am willing to give him some slack because it was his first year. Futhermore, I think the team is improving. The entire team was basically gutted, the philosophy was changed, new strategies, player personnel, etc. Year one was up and down but I like the start to year two. The offense is playing better, defense is improved and there are several young players making incredible contributions.

Finally, do you think Champ Bailey would say he wants to come back if the players aren't buying McD? Or do you think he's being politcally correct and just wants his money?

jsco70
10-07-2010, 08:14 PM
What was the deal breaker for me was the fact that he lost his team those last three years. I was embarrassed for those teams

Agree. For me it was the the strong start, terrible finishes in both the games and the season that were getting old. How many games did Denver jump out to a big lead, lose all momentum and then give the game away? It was time for him to go.

snowspot66
10-07-2010, 08:18 PM
What was the deal breaker for me was the fact that he lost his team those last three years. I was embarrassed for those teams

The deal breaker for me was the intention to bring Slowick back for another year as DC. One week after the 08 season was done with and 09 was already depressing as hell with that announcement. I wanted to cry.

scttgrd
10-07-2010, 08:23 PM
Agree. For me it was the the strong start, terrible finishes in both the games and the season that were getting old. How many games did Denver jump out to a big lead, lose all momentum and then give the game away? It was time for him to go.

For some of us the pattern seems to be repeating. Give some real results. With all the power he has I want to see a playoff push this year. He was given everything he wanted, now show some results.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-07-2010, 10:48 PM
For some of us the pattern seems to be repeating. Give some real results. With all the power he has I want to see a playoff push this year. He was given everything he wanted, now show some results.

Quickly! Fast forward to the end of the season so scttgrd can see some results! Do it NOW!

Archer81
10-07-2010, 10:54 PM
For some of us the pattern seems to be repeating. Give some real results. With all the power he has I want to see a playoff push this year. He was given everything he wanted, now show some results.


I would say that Josh is in the middle of building a roster that is playoff quality...and is still about a season away.

I swear to God Madden is ruining existance as we know it.


:Broncos:

scttgrd
10-07-2010, 10:59 PM
I would say that Josh is in the middle of building a roster that is playoff quality...and is still about a season away.

I swear to God Madden is ruining existance as we know it.


:Broncos:

When was the last time you heard a coach say he has a 3-5 year plan? In the NFL there is no such thing anymore. Unless you are a fan of the Broncos. Josh will pull it together in a few years, you just watch! I'm so glad you are willing to give that kind of time to a guy learning on the job.

scttgrd
10-07-2010, 11:01 PM
Quickly! Fast forward to the end of the season so scttgrd can see some results! Do it NOW!

If we ever see results it would be a surprise. How long should it take? 3 year plan? 5 year plan? Or are you willing to swallow losing as long as it takes for Joshy to mature?

baja
10-07-2010, 11:04 PM
If we ever see results it would be a surprise. How long should it take? 3 year plan? 5 year plan? Or are you willing to swallow losing as long as it takes for Joshy to mature?

I wonder if you would be here is we won 4 or 5 games in the next 6 or 7 weeks?

Archer81
10-07-2010, 11:15 PM
When was the last time you heard a coach say he has a 3-5 year plan? In the NFL there is no such thing anymore. Unless you are a fan of the Broncos. Josh will pull it together in a few years, you just watch! I'm so glad you are willing to give that kind of time to a guy learning on the job.


I think its standard to wait at least three years before you start to turn on the headcoach. Considering two of the last three HC's got more than 5 years in Denver it would not be insane to give the man time.

And I am so happy you would prefer to dump McDaniels halfway through a rebuilding project.

Madden is not your friend when dealing with reality.

:Broncos:

scttgrd
10-07-2010, 11:17 PM
I wonder if you would be here is we won 4 or 5 games in the next 6 or 7 weeks?


I wonder what excuse you will have if things don't work out for your boy? I am going to be here no matter what. i have no insults or snark, just a different point of view. I hope Josh knows what he is doing,, but I have seen guys in over there head too many times before. Man it sound good, till thing go horribly wrong. I hope that's not the case, but I think we have all been there when someone talks the talk but can't walk the walk.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-07-2010, 11:18 PM
If we ever see results it would be a surprise. How long should it take? 3 year plan? 5 year plan? Or are you willing to swallow losing as long as it takes for Joshy to mature?

Translation: "DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! DUR DUR DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! DO IT FASTER DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!"

Let's see... we're 20 games in. Is that a three year plan? Five year plan? Or is it possible that you're overreacting?

DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-07-2010, 11:20 PM
I think its standard to wait at least three years before you start to turn on the headcoach. Considering two of the last three HC's got more than 5 years in Denver it would not be insane to give the man time.

And I am so happy you would prefer to dump McDaniels halfway through a rebuilding project.

Madden is not your friend when dealing with reality.

:Broncos:

You're doing it wrong. See, Scttgrd has "reality" on lockdown. Just ask him and he'll tell you all about it.

Archer81
10-07-2010, 11:20 PM
I wonder what excuse you will have if things don't work out for your boy? I am going to be here no matter what. i have no insults or snark, just a different point of view. I hope Josh knows what he is doing,, but I have seen guys in over there head too many times before. Man it sound good, till thing go horribly wrong. I hope that's not the case, but I think we have all been there when someone talks the talk but can't walk the walk.


You didnt vote for Obama did you?


:Broncos:

baja
10-07-2010, 11:23 PM
I wonder what excuse you will have if things don't work out for your boy? I am going to be here no matter what. i have no insults or snark, just a different point of view. I hope Josh knows what he is doing,, but I have seen guys in over there head too many times before. Man it sound good, till thing go horribly wrong. I hope that's not the case, but I think we have all been there when someone talks the talk but can't walk the walk.

O I won't need an excuse. If he doesn't work out I will be very surprised but I'll be quick to say I was wrong if he were to fail.

I will say this I would be willing to bet even money that Josh is still the HC of the Broncos in 5 years and will have at least a couple of playoff games and a win or two under his belt.

scttgrd
10-07-2010, 11:32 PM
O I won't need an excuse. If he doesn't work out I will be very surprised but I'll be quick to say I was wrong if he were to fail.

I will say this I would be willing to bet even money that Josh is still the HC of the Broncos in 5 years and will have at least a couple of playoff games and a win or two under his belt.

Oh boy, the vaunted 5 year plan. If he would have said that at the introduction how many would have been happy with the hire?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-07-2010, 11:35 PM
Oh boy, the vaunted 5 year plan. If he would have said that at the introduction how many would have been happy with the hire?

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

Where did he say a 5 year plan? Oh right, he didn't. He said he would be surprised if McDaniels wasn't the coach in 5 years. Large difference.

Perhaps you'd realize that if you'd slow down, think for yourself, and read.

baja
10-07-2010, 11:39 PM
Oh boy, the vaunted 5 year plan. If he would have said that at the introduction how many would have been happy with the hire?

Well I am enjoying the speed with which Josh is building a very solid team so I think I will say good bye to you and leave you with your misery.

Blueflame
10-07-2010, 11:39 PM
Your point regarding Phillips is absurd. Any Bronco fan with even moderate brain activity knew that Phillips was more of an interim, caretaker option for coach until Shanahan was ready to take the reigns. Are you suggesting that McDaniels has taken the same role?

I'm suggesting that Wade was a young unproven HC... an excellent assistant coach who... at the time (and maybe not even now) was not ready to be a HC.

God damn I'm sick of people talking about Shanahan and former Broncos players on this board. Its so moronic its not even funny.

OMG did u no dat Shanahanz only one 6 of his last 15 gamez?!?!? OMG

Agreed. It wasn't me who was speculating what might or might not have been another poster's opinion years ago. I merely answered a question.

Blueflame
10-07-2010, 11:51 PM
Who cares about his first year. What about the last three years of his tenure? Those seasons in particular were extremely frustrating and even more so because Shanahan was regarded as the "Mastermind." How critical of him were you for the neverending stream of poor free agents, weak defensive coordinators, second half game and season collapses, etc? I believe McD deserves from credit for dismantling the team and rebuilding it how he wants. It looks very promising from my perspective despite some obvious issues.

The first couple of years of his tenure in Denver is the only timeframe in which Shanahan was a young, unproven HC (like McDaniels). Furthermore, Shanahan made many coaching decisions that I absolutely hated... most notably, letting Steve Atwater go to the Jest so that he could acquire Dale Carter.

Anyway, this entire debate is, as you put it a "moot point." Shanahan is gone, McD is coaching this team and will continue to do so for at least the next two seasons. You might enjoy it more if you make an effort to be positive. Pining for the glory days gone by won't help.

While I still maintain some "positive outlook" toward Mike Shanahan for helping Elway reach the "brass ring"... he is now a Redskin (a team I still hold a grudge against for the SB loss); hence he is irrelevant. It is nonetheless valid to question what exactly Josh McDaniels has proven with his 10-10 record (nothing). And what exactly is wrong with wanting to win? ???

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-08-2010, 12:05 AM
The first couple of years of his tenure in Denver is the only timeframe in which Shanahan was a young, unproven HC (like McDaniels). Furthermore, Shanahan made many coaching decisions that I absolutely hated... most notably, letting Steve Atwater go to the Jest so that he could acquire Dale Carter.



While I still maintain some "positive outlook" toward Mike Shanahan for helping Elway reach the "brass ring"... he is now a Redskin (a team I still hold a grudge against for the SB loss); hence he is irrelevant. It is nonetheless valid to question what exactly Josh McDaniels has proven with his 10-10 record (nothing). And what exactly is wrong with wanting to win? ???

He hasn't "proven" anything. HowEVER, some of us see the good things that are being put into place -- yes, similar to the Shanahan years -- and are willing to look at the big picture, not just the record through 20 games of a head coaching stint.

Because looking at a head coach's record through 20 games as some sort of indicator is for the retarded. And you're not retarded, right Blue?

The MVPlaya
10-08-2010, 12:07 AM
He hasn't "proven" anything. HowEVER, some of us see the good things that are being put into place -- yes, similar to the Shanahan years -- and are willing to look at the big picture, not just the record through 20 games of a head coaching stint.

Because looking at a head coach's record through 20 games as some sort of indicator is for the retarded. And you're not retarded, right Blue?

<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/dFiSkKpySaE" frameborder="0"></iframe>

Steve Sewell
10-08-2010, 12:16 AM
When was the last time you heard a coach say he has a 3-5 year plan? In the NFL there is no such thing anymore. Unless you are a fan of the Broncos. Josh will pull it together in a few years, you just watch! I'm so glad you are willing to give that kind of time to a guy learning on the job.

Bull****. Historically, the Broncos are one of the best franchises in the NFL. Look at some of the others that don't employ knee-jerk reactions in hiring decisions, the proof is in the pudding. Bowlen doesn't fire coaches after 1 or 2 seasons. The teams that employ the above mentality are usually the franchises that are mostly horrible and maybe have 1 flash in the pan season every now and again.

It would be nice if some Broncos fans would show some class and intelligence when it comes to being patient about NFL success, but apparently that is asking too much.

Blueflame
10-08-2010, 12:17 AM
He hasn't "proven" anything. HowEVER, some of us see the good things that are being put into place -- yes, similar to the Shanahan years -- and are willing to look at the big picture, not just the record through 20 games of a head coaching stint.

Because looking at a head coach's record through 20 games as some sort of indicator is for the retarded. And you're not retarded, right Blue?

Know what? 20 games is all we have... in the way of facts.... to look at. The "big picture" as you put it...is pure speculation; nothing more. I certainly hope the "better-fans" are right because that would mean Broncos wins.

I am not "going personal" with you. Please stay on topic (McDaniels and his competency as a HC).

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-08-2010, 12:20 AM
Know what? 20 games is all we have... in the way of facts.... to look at. The "big picture" as you put it...is pure speculation; nothing more. I certainly hope the "better-fans" are right because that would mean Broncos wins.

I am not "going personal" with you. Please stay on topic (McDaniels and his competency as a HC).

You're absolutely right. I should have been more specific.

There's more to it than the actual record. Like how they've played in those 20 games, rather than just looking at the 20 games. Which is the simpleton's way of looking at things.

At least you're hopeful that we're right about the improvement, as are we, unlike some folks. That's a big step forward for you.

I didn't think you were a retard.

broncocalijohn
10-08-2010, 12:38 AM
Orton is on target to start the Pro Bowl game.

fixed it for ya.

Popps
10-08-2010, 12:39 AM
Is it Sunday yet?

ton80
10-08-2010, 12:44 AM
See, you have it wrong. The record right now is about the same under Josh as it was under Shanny in his last years. But Josh is 4 games into his 2nd year, Shanny had 10+ years to put what he wanted on the field. Josh was so busy his first year dumping Shanny trash, his first year almost doesn't even count. Of course Bowlen is going to give Josh a real shake at this. He knows you don't turn bad teams around in 1 year or 2 years. The benchamrk in the NFL seems to be 3 years. If you can't start making the playoffs in that 3rd year or at least be close to making them, then you need to look at the coach. I think Josh is starting to put the puzzle together here and with another good draft and FA this offseason, I think we will be in great shape to knock out SD and take this division back.

Screw that. The Broncos are poised to make the playoffs this year and win the Super Bowl next year.

Blueflame
10-08-2010, 01:40 AM
You're absolutely right. I should have been more specific.

There's more to it than the actual record. Like how they've played in those 20 games, rather than just looking at the 20 games. Which is the simpleton's way of looking at things.

At least you're hopeful that we're right about the improvement, as are we, unlike some folks. That's a big step forward for you.

I didn't think you were a retard.

The only "record" that ultimately matters is wins. Anything else (trying to convince yourself that "the team looked improved" in a loss) is rationalization and/or blind homerism. The NFL is a business... and a "what have you done (won) for me lately" business at that. Wins = coaching jobs kept. Losing records... or even mediocre, .500 records (inevitably, sooner or later, depending on the patience of the team owner) = a pink slip.

I could not possibly care less than I currently do... what you thought of my intellectual capacity. For the record.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-08-2010, 07:05 AM
The only "record" that ultimately matters is wins. Anything else (trying to convince yourself that "the team looked improved" in a loss) is rationalization and/or blind homerism. The NFL is a business... and a "what have you done (won) for me lately" business at that. Wins = coaching jobs kept. Losing records... or even mediocre, .500 records (inevitably, sooner or later, depending on the patience of the team owner) = a pink slip.

I could not possibly care less than I currently do... what you thought of my intellectual capacity. For the record.

Okay, blue. I'd like for you to point out where I said wins don't matter. Go ahead. Show me. I'd love to see it.

My argument is that after 20 games, with a .500 record, there is MUCH more to look at than just the W/L record. End of this season, I think you can begin evaluating the record, and certainly at the end of next season it will be the bottom line. But doing it now is short-sighted and stupid.

And I could give two ****s whether or not you care what I think of your intellectual capacity. I don't think you're stupid (I believe I said that above), but evaluating a coach's W/L record with regard to whether he should keep his job after 20 games when he's gone .500 is ****ING STUPID.

If he was 5 games underwater, you might have something. He isn't.

Blueflame
10-08-2010, 07:38 AM
Okay, blue. I'd like for you to point out where I said wins don't matter. Go ahead. Show me. I'd love to see it.
What? I never claimed that you said wins don't matter. Strawman?

My argument is that after 20 games, with a .500 record, there is MUCH more to look at than just the W/L record. End of this season, I think you can begin evaluating the record, and certainly at the end of next season it will be the bottom line. But doing it now is short-sighted and stupid.
And my argument is that the jury's still out on McDaniels... and that he has not yet proven himself. This is NOT saying he's failed; it's saying he hasn't clearly succeeded yet either.

And I could give two ****s whether or not you care what I think of your intellectual capacity. I don't think you're stupid (I believe I said that above), but evaluating a coach's W/L record with regard to whether he should keep his job after 20 games when he's gone .500 is ****ING STUPID.
As I've repeatedly stated, it ain't about me... or what "I" think. It's about what a young HC can prove. As yet, he still has proven nothing. Only time will tell.

If he was 5 games underwater, you might have something. He isn't.
It doesn't matter, Mooseguy. Shanahan wasn't "5 games underwater" when he was fired (which had to happen, btw). And he had brought 2 Lombardis to the trophy case.

Dagmar
10-08-2010, 08:07 AM
The deal breaker for me was the intention to bring Slowick back for another year as DC. One week after the 08 season was done with and 09 was already depressing as hell with that announcement. I wanted to cry.

The Slowik thing and the Chargers game, Shanahan's last in charge. 2nd worst game in the 2000's after the Steelers game in 2005 AFCCG.

baja
10-08-2010, 08:13 AM
What? I never claimed that you said wins don't matter. Strawman?


And my argument is that the jury's still out on McDaniels... and that he has not yet proven himself. This is NOT saying he's failed; it's saying he hasn't clearly succeeded yet either.


As I've repeatedly stated, it ain't about me... or what "I" think. It's about what a young HC can prove. As yet, he still has proven nothing. Only time will tell.


It doesn't matter, Mooseguy. Shanahan wasn't "5 games underwater" when he was fired (which had to happen, btw). And he had brought 2 Lombardis to the trophy case.

Well in the mean time I am enjoying watching the new hard nosed Denver Broncos every Sunday. They exciting and never never quit unlike the teams Shanny fielded in recent past.

Missouribronc
10-08-2010, 08:16 AM
The Slowik thing and the Chargers game, Shanahan's last in charge. 2nd worst game in the 2000's after the Steelers game in 2005 AFCCG.

That Charger game was worse for me. For some reason, it was just more embarrassing to get blown up on national TV in the last game of the season against Phyllis, than it was in the AFC Championship game against the eventual Super Bowl Champions.

BroncoBuff
10-08-2010, 08:22 AM
If we are keeping things in perspective about the offensive line let's examine it.

We have 3 of the same 5 starters (Harris, Kuper and Clady). The center he inherited was old and done. I cant even remember who our right Guard was last year. So he got a new center, and got another guard and a backup all-purpose Offensive Line player in Beadles.

Then we lost our offensive line coach to Kubiak through no fault of McDaniels. Kubiak and Dennison have a very long history together. McDaniels wanted to keep both Dennison and Turner (as witnessed by the fact that neither was canned when McD took over). Dennison did well last year with us. Now we have a new offensive line coach teaching a completely different blocking scheme to guys that were drafted for zone blocking abilities.

You can argue that we should not have changed because our red zone run game sucks but it sucked with the ZB scheme for years too.

Keeping it in perspective.

What?

BroncoBuff
10-08-2010, 08:24 AM
Too early to judge the drafts picks, can't know yet.

But we definitely won the trade on QBs alone ... Orton has been much better than Cutler.

Beantown Bronco
10-08-2010, 08:34 AM
When was the last time you heard a coach say he has a 3-5 year plan? In the NFL there is no such thing anymore.

Wrong.

Just because a coach doesn't talk about it, that doesn't mean it isn't exactly what they're doing.

Look at the Pats as Exhibit A. With the moves they've made the last few years with players like Seymour and Moss, they have pretty much conceded that they will not be playing for a championship for at least another 2 years. They've unloaded some of their best players NOT for other players of equal caliber, but for future draft picks. Half their freaking roster next year will be rookies or 2nd year guys. They are going to win some games over the next year and a half, and should be fairly competitive within the division, just because Buffalo sucks so much and Miami is still Miami, but they are not going to be realistically competing for the SB trophy.

baja
10-08-2010, 08:38 AM
Too early to judge the drafts picks, can't know yet.

But we definitely won the trade on QBs alone ... Orton has been much better than Cutler.

See I told ya you would see the light eventually .... ;D

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-08-2010, 08:42 AM
What? I never claimed that you said wins don't matter. Strawman?

No, you just inferred it. "The only "record" that ultimately matters is wins. Anything else (trying to convince yourself that "the team looked improved" in a loss) is rationalization and/or blind homerism."


And my argument is that the jury's still out on McDaniels... and that he has not yet proven himself. This is NOT saying he's failed; it's saying he hasn't clearly succeeded yet either.


As I've repeatedly stated, it ain't about me... or what "I" think. It's about what a young HC can prove. As yet, he still has proven nothing. Only time will tell.


It doesn't matter, Mooseguy. Shanahan wasn't "5 games underwater" when he was fired (which had to happen, btw). And he had brought 2 Lombardis to the trophy case.

Shanahan had a lot more than 20 games on the odometer too. Even in his case, you had to look at more than just W/L record. You had to look at drafting history, free agent history, things like the defense being blown up every year... **** like that.

After 20 games, claiming the only thing that matters is wins, ESPECIALLY when the 20 game coach has the same .500 mark that the former HC had over his last three seasons, is just ridiculous.

That's my point.

rbackfactory80
10-08-2010, 08:54 AM
Wrong.

Just because a coach doesn't talk about it, that doesn't mean it isn't exactly what they're doing.

Look at the Pats as Exhibit A. With the moves they've made the last few years with players like Seymour and Moss, they have pretty much conceded that they will not be playing for a championship for at least another 2 years. They've unloaded some of their best players NOT for other players of equal caliber, but for future draft picks. Half their freaking roster next year will be rookies or 2nd year guys. They are going to win some games over the next year and a half, and should be fairly competitive within the division, just because Buffalo sucks so much and Miami is still Miami, but they are not going to be realistically competing for the SB trophy.


That's fine and a great plan but the problem is you can't replace many of the players they get rid of. They won't be winning a championship for a long time. In a couple years you will have a 36 year old Tom Brady, who will not be playing at the level we have become accustomed to. When they decide to cut-bait, they we be just like Denver, looking for a Tom Brady 2.0 just like Denver has been looking for an Elway 2.0 and being over critical of all their QB's and taking years to replace.

I can't wait to see if NE has any class and dignity is the eventual replacement of Tom Brady or if they cut bait and act like he never did anything for them. That is a heartless organization.

Dagmar
10-08-2010, 09:21 AM
Too early to judge the drafts picks, can't know yet.

But we definitely won the trade on QBs alone ... Orton has been much better than Cutler.

Simms >>>> Orton & Cutler combined.

Blueflame
10-08-2010, 01:24 PM
No, you just inferred it. "The only "record" that ultimately matters is wins. Anything else (trying to convince yourself that "the team looked improved" in a loss) is rationalization and/or blind homerism."




Shanahan had a lot more than 20 games on the odometer too. Even in his case, you had to look at more than just W/L record. You had to look at drafting history, free agent history, things like the defense being blown up every year... **** like that.

After 20 games, claiming the only thing that matters is wins, ESPECIALLY when the 20 game coach has the same .500 mark that the former HC had over his last three seasons, is just ridiculous.

That's my point.

I'm not wanting to "judge" McDaniels now.... I totally agree that he hasn't had enough time yet to deem him either competent or incompetent. My point is that "the jury is still out" on McDaniels; while you're seemingly insisting that everyone must unilaterally accept that he has already achieved success.

_Oro_
10-08-2010, 01:31 PM
I'm not wanting to "judge" McDaniels now.... I totally agree that he hasn't had enough time yet to deem him either competent or incompetent. My point is that "the jury is still out" on McDaniels; while you're seemingly insisting that everyone must unilaterally accept that he has already achieved success.

Maybe he hasn't achieved success but I personally enjoy watching the 2010 team way more than the 2008 team. Even while watching the Indy game, the whole time I was thinking how great it is to watch this team. We have a bunch of guys you can root for. They play hard and don't give up. Lots of hitting, lots of timely plays on both the O and D, etc.

So yeah he hasn't achieved success, but right now I've been happy with the product he's put on the field. Granted, if we go 8-8 and collapse down the stretch, again, then I'll probably start singing a different tune.

HAT
10-08-2010, 01:33 PM
Simms >>>> Orton & Cutler combined.

I'm thinking he should start.

jhns
10-08-2010, 01:37 PM
I'm thinking he should start.

Don't worry, he will start here in a couple years when his boyfriend Kyle Shanahan becomes head coach. Just be patient.

OABB
10-08-2010, 03:10 PM
I'm not wanting to "judge" McDaniels now.... I totally agree that he hasn't had enough time yet to deem him either competent or incompetent. My point is that "the jury is still out" on McDaniels; while you're seemingly insisting that everyone must unilaterally accept that he has already achieved success.

I wonder what gave us the impression that you had a problem with Josh? I must have been confused. I'm glad you are a wait and see type who is holding off an opinion until enough time has passed.

I apologize for thinking you were an emotional and b****y poster who held a grudge based on something imaterial.

My bad.

Arkie
10-08-2010, 09:10 PM
Maybe he hasn't achieved success but I personally enjoy watching the 2010 team way more than the 2008 team. Even while watching the Indy game, the whole time I was thinking how great it is to watch this team. We have a bunch of guys you can root for. They play hard and don't give up. Lots of hitting, lots of timely plays on both the O and D, etc.

So yeah he hasn't achieved success, but right now I've been happy with the product he's put on the field. Granted, if we go 8-8 and collapse down the stretch, again, then I'll probably start singing a different tune.

I enjoyed watching the 2008 team like everybody else on this board when Hillis was kicking ass. I also enjoyed watching them go 6-0 at the beginning of last year, and I enjoyed seeing them beat Tennessee this last weekend. That's all the Broncos enjoyment for the last three years.

Dagmar
10-08-2010, 09:23 PM
I enjoyed watching the 2008 team like everybody else on this board when Hillis was kicking ass. I also enjoyed watching them go 6-0 at the beginning of last year, and I enjoyed seeing them beat Tennessee this last weekend. That's all the Broncos enjoyment for the last three years.

Wow. I remember being at the Seahawks game. I remember being at the Giants game too. Those were a lot of damn fun "arkie".

BroncoMan4ever
10-08-2010, 09:36 PM
But Jay can haz Cannon Arm.

CANNON ARM!!

with the brain of a guy who should be bagging groceries, the feeling of superiority of a guy who has reached the status of someone like Elway, the mechanics of a late round QB draft pick, and the health system of a 50 year old 350lbs alcoholic.

but he has a hell of an arm

:yayaya:ROFL!:yayaya:ROFL!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-09-2010, 12:25 AM
I'm not wanting to "judge" McDaniels now.... I totally agree that he hasn't had enough time yet to deem him either competent or incompetent. My point is that "the jury is still out" on McDaniels; while you're seemingly insisting that everyone must unilaterally accept that he has already achieved success.

Would sure love for you to show me where I wrote that. C'mon, blue. You're better than using strawmen like that... aren't you?

Oh wait. Who am I talking to?

Ah yes. The TrollMod.

Blueflame
10-09-2010, 04:04 AM
Would sure love for you to show me where I wrote that. C'mon, blue. You're better than using strawmen like that... aren't you?

Oh wait. Who am I talking to?

Ah yes. The TrollMod.

Did you have a point beyond a personal insult here? If we're in agreement that it's way to early to judge McDaniels' performance as HC (which it is...the jury's still out), then why we arguing? And if you had a valid debate position to defend, then taking the conversation off-topic into a personal insult would not be necessary.

Rock Chalk
10-09-2010, 08:08 AM
Did you have a point beyond a personal insult here? If we're in agreement that it's way to early to judge McDaniels' performance as HC (which it is...the jury's still out), then why we arguing? And if you had a valid debate position to defend, then taking the conversation off-topic into a personal insult would not be necessary.

Its not too early.

You can look at it in one of two ways.
The team is headed in the right direction.
The team isn't headed in the right direction.

You can make your assumptions based on what he has done so far. It is not too early, you are just a chicken **** and don't want to say in public that you don't like the direction the team is going.

OABB
10-09-2010, 01:40 PM
Did you have a point beyond a personal insult here? If we're in agreement that it's way to early to judge McDaniels' performance as HC (which it is...the jury's still out), then why we arguing? And if you had a valid debate position to defend, then taking the conversation off-topic into a personal insult would not be necessary.

Because you HAVE placed a judgement blue. You have a thousand times. Had you done this wait and see thing for real, there would be no issue. You have a short term memory problem if you can't remember the patriot bashing you have done on him. Seriously. WTF?

Blueflame
10-09-2010, 03:18 PM
Its not too early.

You can look at it in one of two ways.
The team is headed in the right direction.
The team isn't headed in the right direction.

You can make your assumptions based on what he has done so far. It is not too early, you are just a chicken **** and don't want to say in public that you don't like the direction the team is going.

I'm a lot of things, Rock Chalk. Chicken**** is not one of them. I'm very worried about what I've seen from Special Teams play so far this year. I'm also concerned that Moreno and Buckhalter may not be able to get/stay healthy, which means a one-dimensional offense and when they know you don't have anyone to run the ball, it makes an opposing defense's job far easier. Orton's been under too much pressure and if he gets injured... well neither of the backups is ready to take over the starting job.

Blueflame
10-09-2010, 03:20 PM
Because you HAVE placed a judgement blue. You have a thousand times. Had you done this wait and see thing for real, there would be no issue. You have a short term memory problem if you can't remember the patriot bashing you have done on him. Seriously. WTF?

And I still hate the Patriots and bash them all the time. So? We aren't on a Patriots forum.

OABB
10-10-2010, 01:49 AM
And I still hate the Patriots and bash them all the time. So? We aren't on a Patriots forum.

qfi.

HAT
10-10-2010, 01:54 AM
Orton's been under too much pressure and if he gets injured... well neither of the backups is ready to take over the starting job.

Doubtful you will find a bigger KO homer around here than me. That's why I'm with you in hoping he doesn't get injured.......He may not get his job back if he does.

LongDongJohnson
10-10-2010, 02:01 AM
Result? Mediocre .500 football team for McDaniels. McDaniels has a LOT to prove.

what do you expect.

its not like mcdaniels inherited a good playoff contending team.
mcdaniels had a lot of shanahan garbage to clean up.

let mcdaniels atleast finish out his original contract. i think he's going to prove a lot of doubters wrong.

BroncoBuff
10-10-2010, 02:25 AM
You can make your assumptions based on what he has done so far. It is not too early, you are just a chicken **** and don't want to say in public that you don't like the direction the team is going.

What an odd thought. Why would someone be "chicken***" for expressing an honest opinion?

Me, I think he's done a very poor job drafting and making personnel decisions. But the fact our offense - largely made up of average, even journeymen-type players - can lead the league in passing, that's a testament to McDaniels' exceptional offensive mind and coaching.

More time that goes by, the more it looks like I've been right all along: I welcomed him as a coach, but dreaded his involvement in the front office.

BroncoMan4ever
10-13-2010, 02:48 PM
what do you expect.

its not like mcdaniels inherited a good playoff contending team.
mcdaniels had a lot of shanahan garbage to clean up.

let mcdaniels atleast finish out his original contract. i think he's going to prove a lot of doubters wrong.

agreed.

the fact that 32 players he dumped from the final Shanahan team never played again shows just how bad of a team he inherited, and also show Shanahan could gameplan a win with complete garbage. guy was like the MacGuyver of NFL coaching. send him the NFL player equivalent of a paper clip, a pencil and a piece of paper and he will create a bomb.

bendog
10-13-2010, 02:51 PM
sweet jesus, this thing is still alive? You people are sadists.

errand
10-13-2010, 04:55 PM
Orton is on target for a Pro Bowl appearance.

.....not to mention he's on pace to shatter the NFL's single season yardage record. however if we can't find a way to run the ball, and win games it won't amount to a hill of beans

errand
10-13-2010, 04:58 PM
Result? Mediocre .500 football team for McDaniels. McDaniels has a LOT to prove.

We were a mediocre .500 football team before McDaniels ever got here....i'm sure he'll be able to win more than one measly playoff game if he is given a decade to do so.

errand
10-13-2010, 05:03 PM
It's not hatred. It's the fact that we aren't any better now than when Shanahan was fired and a good argument can be made that McD is in over his head and we aren't moving in the right direction.

Looks like Bowlen is going to give McD a fair shake at turning this around, but talk is cheap. He needs to start putting up W's.

Are you saying a Mike Shanahan team finishing 8-8 is better than a Josh McDaniels team that finishes 8-8?

this team is headed in the right direction...McDaniels is building a team first mentality/culture. soon these young players we got will mature, and produce...and we'll be back to being relevant on the field every sunday

errand
10-13-2010, 05:08 PM
And I still hate the Patriots and bash them all the time. So? We aren't on a Patriots forum.

Nobody cares that you hate the pats, blueflame...but, you do realize that Josh is a Bronco right?

Dagmar
10-13-2010, 05:19 PM
http://timetrabble.com/comics/2010-10-04-Heartbreak.png

Blueflame
10-13-2010, 06:07 PM
We were a mediocre .500 football team before McDaniels ever got here....i'm sure he'll be able to win more than one measly playoff game if he is given a decade to do so.
His first step is to prove he can take the team to the playoffs, right? He has to do that before we can talk about winning a playoff game.

Nobody cares that you hate the pats, blueflame...but, you do realize that Josh is a Bronco right?
Precisely the reason why it "should" not be an issue (it "should" be deemed perfectly OK to hate a "McDaniels-less Patriot organization)... on a Broncos forum... But it still apparently is. Whatever.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-13-2010, 06:12 PM
His first step is to prove he can take the team to the playoffs, right? He has to do that before we can talk about winning a playoff game.

I didn't realize any teams playing in 2010 had clinched a playoff spot yet.

http://thegurglingcod.typepad.com/thegurglingcod/images/2008/02/12/the_more_you_know2.jpg

Blueflame
10-13-2010, 06:46 PM
I didn't realize any teams playing in 2010 had clinched a playoff spot yet.

http://thegurglingcod.typepad.com/thegurglingcod/images/2008/02/12/the_more_you_know2.jpg

Red herring, Mooseguy. That claim was never made. It doesn't stop me from wanting McDaniels to take the Broncos to the playoffs this year though.

gunns
10-13-2010, 07:00 PM
The only "record" that ultimately matters is wins. Anything else (trying to convince yourself that "the team looked improved" in a loss) is rationalization and/or blind homerism. The NFL is a business... and a "what have you done (won) for me lately" business at that. Wins = coaching jobs kept. Losing records... or even mediocre, .500 records (inevitably, sooner or later, depending on the patience of the team owner) = a pink slip.

I could not possibly care less than I currently do... what you thought of my intellectual capacity. For the record.

Excellent post. "The team looked improve" is definitely a rationalization, one I'm tired of. And it isn't just McD, we went through it with Shanahan too. Sick to death of it. Another thing is some of the players people are willing to settle for with either "it's all there was" or "they are better than what we had". It's sad what we've learned to be happy with while this team has become an "average" team. Now that's not saying things won't improve nor am I bashing McD as this goes back to Shanahan. I just want a little more pride in this team where we don't settle for players like Clarett, Chris Simms, the Browncos, or Maroney. I'm thrilled that Shanahan and McD got rid of two of them in rapid fashion. I want wins and I don't give a damn how we get them.

ZONA
10-14-2010, 01:44 AM
Excellent post. "The team looked improve" is definitely a rationalization, one I'm tired of. And it isn't just McD, we went through it with Shanahan too. Sick to death of it. Another thing is some of the players people are willing to settle for with either "it's all there was" or "they are better than what we had". It's sad what we've learned to be happy with while this team has become an "average" team. Now that's not saying things won't improve nor am I bashing McD as this goes back to Shanahan. I just want a little more pride in this team where we don't settle for players like Clarett, Chris Simms, the Browncos, or Maroney. I'm thrilled that Shanahan and McD got rid of two of them in rapid fashion. I want wins and I don't give a damn how we get them.

Yep - kinda hard to get those wins though when key player after key players goes down. We've not been very lucky in the injury dept lately.

Blueflame
10-14-2010, 02:04 AM
Yep - kinda hard to get those wins though when key player after key players goes down. We've not been very lucky in the injury dept lately.

Injuries are always the "wild card" in the deck... but yeah. We've had more than our fair share of injuries to starters at key positions in recent years. It's frustrating but what can you do? T'is why quality depth is so important and why each roster slot matters.

Regardless of anything else, they have to find a way to keep Orton healthy. Neither of the other QBs on our roster is anywhere near ready to start.

baja
10-14-2010, 07:26 AM
Injuries are always the "wild card" in the deck... but yeah. We've had more than our fair share of injuries to starters at key positions in recent years. It's frustrating but what can you do? T'is why quality depth is so important and why each roster slot matters.

Regardless of anything else, they have to find a way to keep Orton healthy. Neither of the other QBs on our roster is anywhere near ready to start.

It takes time to build depth. We are in the second year of a complete rebuild. To me the fact that the new regime cut 32 players from Shanny's roster that never found jobs in the NFL again is a shocking statement. It takes time to recover from that kind of talent depletion. It's a testament to Shanny that he could play 500 ball with the players he had but remember the horrible beat downs we received when we played the better teams like the Colts or Ravens? Sure we lost to them again but we faired so much better. In fact those two games this year are a great gauge as to how far Josh has come with this team. We were not embarrassed, even though we were riddled with more than our share of injuries we gave them a game. To me it's easy to see the improvement and I am excited about our future.

epicSocialism4tw
10-14-2010, 11:23 AM
Orton is on target for a Pro Bowl appearance.

As of today, he's All-Pro.

errand
10-20-2010, 05:11 PM
His first step is to prove he can take the team to the playoffs, right? He has to do that before we can talk about winning a playoff game.


Precisely the reason why it "should" not be an issue (it "should" be deemed perfectly OK to hate a "McDaniels-less Patriot organization)... on a Broncos forum... But it still apparently is. Whatever.

You let your hatred for the Patriots cloud your mind Blueflame.....

Mike Shanahan took two seasons to take Broncos to playoffs....and he had a hall of fame QB, an elite RB, and several pro bowl players as well. Josh isn't even halfway thru his 2nd year, and you clowns are already in "what have you done for us lately" mode. amazingly you have less patience with him than you do the president of the country

Drek
10-20-2010, 05:50 PM
What an odd thought. Why would someone be "chicken***" for expressing an honest opinion?

Me, I think he's done a very poor job drafting and making personnel decisions. But the fact our offense - largely made up of average, even journeymen-type players - can lead the league in passing, that's a testament to McDaniels' exceptional offensive mind and coaching.

More time that goes by, the more it looks like I've been right all along: I welcomed him as a coach, but dreaded his involvement in the front office.

Seriously?

At this point I don't see how you can't view what he and Xanders have done with the roster with anything but optimism.

The only moves they made in '09 you can really slam in hindsight is the processes by which Alphonso Smith and Richard Quinn were acquired. Now Smith is playing up to his potential with a fresh start in Detroit and the guy we got back for him is filling the role we drafted Quinn for.

Meanwhile they look to have hit on both of their first round picks, the other 2nd (besides Smith) is looking good when healthy, and we even landed a solid late rounder in Bruton who has been a valuable special teams asset and just this past weekend did some good work as a starting safety.

Now this season he's grabbed us a WR who looks like they can replace Marshall's playmaking ability, added two OL who have been playing starting roles despite being 2nd and 3rd round picks, a second WR who showed a lot of promise in pre-season but is otherwise an unknown, added some depth on the OL (Eric Olsen), and then hit what to this point look like three home runs on CBs in the 5th and 7th rounds along with UDFA. That is not even mentioning the potential franchise QB he's added to coach up behind Orton.

The only significant FA signing in the McDaniels/Xanders era that hasn't paid dividends for the team was Jarvis Green.

During the pre-season and early in this season the FO continued to be active and have grabbed two significant contributors off of the waiver wire in Hunter and Vickerson.

So again, all I see is a lot of solid personnel moves with a few mistakes here and there. If they maintain this track record for several more years we'll be one of the most talented teams in the NFL.

Blueflame
10-20-2010, 05:56 PM
You let your hatred for the Patriots cloud your mind Blueflame.....

Mike Shanahan took two seasons to take Broncos to playoffs....and he had a hall of fame QB, an elite RB, and several pro bowl players as well. Josh isn't even halfway thru his 2nd year, and you clowns are already in "what have you done for us lately" mode. amazingly you have less patience with him than you do the president of the country

Not really, Errand. All I'm saying is that he has to show me he's capable (he is young and unproven as a HC despite having proven himself as an OC) before I'm gonna completely buy into him and jump on his bandwagon.

The NFL in general is a "what have you done for me lately" business... for coaches and for players it's pretty much "win or you're out of here" (example: JaMarcus Russell).

Since I'm very rarely on the WRP forum, I'm genuinely curious how you've estimated how much patience I have... or don't have... with any politician including the president.