PDA

View Full Version : judge to declare McDaniels legally insane for letting Hillis go to the Browns.


Pages : [1] 2

Bronco Rob
10-05-2010, 04:16 AM
Kiszla: Broncos fans pine for Hillis


By Mark Kiszla
The Denver Post
Posted: 10/05/2010 01:00:00 AM MDT



At the risk of angering coach Josh McDaniels and offending families with small children, we dare to print the two dirtiest words in the Broncos' language:

Peyton Hillis.

So far in 2010, Hillis has gained 322 yards rushing for the Cleveland Browns and deducted 50 points from McDaniels' IQ.

Like Bigfoot, the 240-pound Hillis and his myth grow larger by the hour. Run, Peyton, run. He is the first good reason during the entire recorded history of man that Colorado has ever been envious of Ohio. We would gladly trade Longs Peak for Hillis, even up. Deal?

Most fair-minded Broncomaniacs admit McDaniels might have been correct for trading away Jay Cutler, don't miss Brandon Marshall as much as originally thought and now have trouble remembering what jersey number Alphonso Smith wore during his brief stint in Denver.

The sin of dumping Hillis, how- ever, is unforgivable.

In Cleveland, the peeps have made a folk hero of Hillis, breathlessly mentioning him in the same sentence as tough guys Larry Csonka, Earl Campbell and Chuck Norris. Since joining the Browns, Hillis has buckled his chin strap and run to infinity. Twice.

On a daily basis, when scanning my overflowing inbox for e-mail, two subjects are by far the most prevalent:

1) A generous stranger from a foreign land wants to give me $15 million (in U.S. dollars) and all he requires to process the transaction is access to my bank account.

2) A raging Broncomaniac demands to know if state law would allow a judge to declare McDaniels legally insane for letting Hillis go to the Browns.

Hate to break this to Broncomaniacs, but Hillis is already you. Feeling very much at home in a state that is more blue collar than blue skies, Hillis has told my friend Michael Arace of The Columbus Dispatch newspaper, "When I think of Cleveland, I think of me."

Funny, McDaniels rarely thought of Hillis at all. A year ago, Hillis got 13 carries for 54 yards. In Cleveland's victory against Cincinnati on Sunday, Hillis ran 27 times for 102 yards.

Through four games of this young season, Hillis is the NFL's eighth-ranked rusher for a weak Cleveland team. Knowshon Moreno, who leads the Denver ground game, ranks No. 42.

Of course, it's not all bad news for the Broncos' offense. Denver quarterback Kyle Orton leads the league in passing yardage. Teammate Brandon Lloyd awoke Monday morning trailing only Indianapolis star Reggie Wayne in receiving yardage.

So it appears that contrary to detractors who stubbornly believe McDaniels doesn't know how to draft or dress, the new Broncos coach does know more than a little about how to effectively throw the football.

But for a kid who grew up down the street from the Pro Football Hall of Fame, McDaniels acts as if he fell asleep the day his third-grade class memorized Vince Lombardi's speech on the power sweep. Run to daylight? The Broncos' running attack has fallen in a black hole.

Every time Orton turns and hands the pigskin to Laurence Maroney, there's such a stinking mess of humanity at the line of scrimmage it's an orgy of football incompetence.

"We are complicating the issue right now in the running game," McDaniels said. "I think we have to start to trust that the play is going to be blocked properly and then the runner has to find green grass. We have to eliminate the (defensive) penetration and start stringing together some plays that move the ball and keep the pressure off the passing game."

Dare I say Hillis has surpassed Tim Tebow as the most popular NFL athlete who doesn't play for the Broncos? Would it be foolish to predict at the next home game in Denver there will be season-ticket holders donning Hillis replica jerseys?

With election day in Colorado only four weeks away, gubernatorial candidates John Hickenlooper, Tom Tancredo and Dan Maes had better be glad of one thing.

Hillis isn't on the ballot.



http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_16254422



;)

Mogulseeker
10-05-2010, 04:30 AM
::)

chrisp
10-05-2010, 04:48 AM
I wish Hillis was still with us........
























......................becuase then he would get stuffed for -2 yards on every play behind our s***y run-blocking and people would stop talking about him..:-)

Mogulseeker
10-05-2010, 04:50 AM
I wish Hillis was still with us........






......................becuase then he would get stuffed for -2 yards on every play behind our s***y run-blocking and people would stop talking about him..:-)

This.

go_broncos
10-05-2010, 05:04 AM
Hate to break this to Broncomaniacs, but Hillis is already you. Feeling very much at home in a state that is more blue collar than blue skies, Hillis has told my friend Michael Arace of The Columbus Dispatch newspaper, "When I think of Cleveland, I think of me."

Funny, McDaniels rarely thought of Hillis at all. A year ago, Hillis got 13 carries for 54 yards. In Cleveland's victory against Cincinnati on Sunday, Hillis ran 27 times for 102 yards.


I was very frustrated when that trade happened.
Mcd..You did a blunder in trading Hillis.
Now, we are stuck with busts like Moreno and Maroney.

Mogulseeker
10-05-2010, 05:10 AM
Moreno > Hillis

If you think differently, then your football knowledge is weak.

Missouribronc
10-05-2010, 05:23 AM
Hate to break this to Broncomaniacs, but Hillis is already you. Feeling very much at home in a state that is more blue collar than blue skies, Hillis has told my friend Michael Arace of The Columbus Dispatch newspaper, "When I think of Cleveland, I think of me."

Funny, McDaniels rarely thought of Hillis at all. A year ago, Hillis got 13 carries for 54 yards. In Cleveland's victory against Cincinnati on Sunday, Hillis ran 27 times for 102 yards.


I was very frustrated when that trade happened.
Mcd..You did a blunder in trading Hillis.
Now, we are stuck with busts like Moreno and Maroney.

He said the same PC crap in Denver.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-05-2010, 05:35 AM
What a creative idea for a column, Kiszla! Great job, little guy!

Man, the media in this town is a mother****ing joke.

go_broncos
10-05-2010, 05:52 AM
Moreno > Hillis

If you think differently, then your football knowledge is weak.

how many 100 yards rushing does moreno have?
Added to that, he is always injured and soft.
Only in this site, posters have high value for moreno.
None of the teams doesn't care about him.
Let's see when our soft RB will play

go_broncos
10-05-2010, 05:53 AM
What a creative idea for a column, Kiszla! Great job, little guy!

Man, the media in this town is a mother****ing joke.

you are joke if you think trading hillis is correct.
I hate you guys that support the coach blindly.

strafen
10-05-2010, 05:57 AM
Moreno > Hillis

If you think differently, then your football knowledge is weak.You'd eish pal.
How you would love that was true.
The fact of th matter, not even stats would support that statement.
Moreno is on the verge of being declared a bust at this point in his career...

strafen
10-05-2010, 05:58 AM
What a creative idea for a column, Kiszla! Great job, little guy!

Man, the media in this town is a mother****ing joke.That's not enough.
Explain why?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-05-2010, 05:58 AM
you are joke if you think trading hillis is correct.
I hate you guys that support the coach blindly.

Love for you to show me where I said that.

you are a joke because you are incapable of getting past Hillis leaving you.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-05-2010, 06:00 AM
That's not enough.
Explain why?

Because the trade's been over for months now.

Because we're 2-2, just won on the road in a hostile environment against a good team, where we had to come from behind to win.

Because he's recycling column ideas over and over and over again, just like the other members of the sporting columnist crew in this town.

Is that enough explanation for you, strafen? Do you understand? Shall I continue?

Missouribronc
10-05-2010, 06:00 AM
how many 100 yards rushing does moreno have?
Added to that, he is always injured and soft.
Only in this site, posters have high value for moreno.
None of the teams doesn't care about him.
Let's see when our soft RB will play

Moreno, 947 yards over the course of 16 games in one season.
Hillis, 719 yards over the course of 30 games in three seasons.

TonyR
10-05-2010, 06:09 AM
It's funny wathcing many of the same people who used to complain about losing Cutler for Orton now move on to Hillis since we clearly "won" the Cutler trade. When the Hillis phenomenon levels off I wonder what their next line of attack will be? We'd be hearing the same moaning and groaning about Brandon Marshall if our WR's and passing game weren't doing so well.

Rabb
10-05-2010, 06:11 AM
this is worse than the Jay Cutler BS actually

at least Jay actually did something here

I just don't see why it is so hard for fans to understand that Hillis is just fine when he is asked to do one thing, not so much when asked to be a complete player

he didn't fit here in the eyes of our coach folks, despite what anyone thinks it doesn't change anything

god damn this place is about unbearable

Mogulseeker
10-05-2010, 06:12 AM
Of course stats cannot support that statement.

Have you watched the Broncos play? Moreno is getting hit 2 yards behind the line. Both of these RBs fall forward. They're both good blockers and receivers... Moreno cuts quicker and, but Hillis gets more yards after the first hit. Moreno is more agile and has much, much better vision. Hillis just runs downhill... but he'd be in the same boat as Moreno statistically in the same system - getting hit 2yds before the line on every play.

The only way to compare the two is to put them both side by side in the same system with the same line. This was the case last year and Moreno clearly outperformed Hillis.

Mogulseeker
10-05-2010, 06:13 AM
this is worse than the Jay Cutler BS actually

at least Jay actually did something here

I just don't see why it is so hard for fans to understand that Hillis is just fine when he is asked to do one thing, not so much when asked to be a complete player

he didn't fit here in the eyes of our coach folks, despite what anyone thinks it doesn't change anything

god damn this place is about unbearable

This.

I wish people would shut up about Hillis.... actually is there any way to block threads with the word "Hillis" in the title?

Hillis is a decent power back with a fumble problem. Pass.

Lendale White > Hillis

And he was my adopt-a-Bronco in 2008.

Lolad
10-05-2010, 06:17 AM
Moreno, 947 yards over the course of 16 games in one season.
Hillis, 719 yards over the course of 30 games in three seasons.

Wow... Twisting the facts a bit much aren't you?? How many games did hillis get at least 20 carries? Why don't you go by YPC or even how many games Moreno has gone over 100.

Missouribronc
10-05-2010, 06:21 AM
Wow... Twisting the facts a bit much aren't you?? How many games did hillis get at least 20 carries? Why don't you go by YPC or even how many games Moreno has gone over 100.

You want to qualify the stats, and I'm twisting them?

Fact: Moreno was more valuable to this team last year than Hillis. Deal with it and move on.

TotallyScrewed
10-05-2010, 06:25 AM
Here we go again....Boring!

"I love Hillis."

"I hate Hillis."

"I hate you!, *^@$%^&"

"I hate you more, &@^(*$!!"

Why do you start a thread about a player that you don't want to talk about? Why to you post in a thread about a player you don't want to talk about? Why do you argue or attempt to argue your point with people who don't want to hear it?

Steve Sewell
10-05-2010, 06:25 AM
how many 100 yards rushing does moreno have?
Added to that, he is always injured and soft.
Only in this site, posters have high value for moreno.
None of the teams doesn't care about him.
Let's see when our soft RB will play

Really?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Really?

Lolad
10-05-2010, 06:26 AM
Of course stats cannot support that statement.

Have you watched the Broncos play? Moreno is getting hit 2 yards behind the line. Both of these RBs fall forward. They're both good blockers and receivers... Moreno cuts quicker and, but Hillis gets more yards after the first hit. Moreno is more agile and has much, much better vision. Hillis just runs downhill... but he'd be in the same boat as Moreno statistically in the same system - getting hit 2yds before the line on every play.

The only way to compare the two is to put them both side by side in the same system with the same line. This was the case last year and Moreno clearly outperformed Hillis.

Wait did you say Moreno has vision? Did you watch any games last season that's the main thing he had to work on coming into this season.

Right now the Browns got the better end of this trade if orton keeps playing like he's playing i could see the him being extended and us cutting ties with Quinn in the offseason

Lolad
10-05-2010, 06:31 AM
You want to qualify the stats, and I'm twisting them?

Fact: Moreno was more valuable to this team last year than Hillis. Deal with it and move on.

I've moved on Hillis is gone but for you to use games played when you know Hillis didn't carry the ball or even played in half of them is stupid.

When you look at stats you can't say this guy has over 10 ypc but yet he's ran the ball one time as opposed to a guy carrying the rock 230 times and getting 4.5 ypc.

So in that regard YPC or games with both players carrying the ball over 20 times a game would be the better option

jhns
10-05-2010, 06:36 AM
actually is there any way to block threads with the word "Hillis" in the title?


Yes there is. It is a new way of blocking though. It is called: "don't click on threads with Hillis in the title"

It is a crazy new idea that some Russian scientist came up with.


I agree with a lot here though. I don't get the Hillis stuff. McDaniels has had many head scratching moves that were much worse than this one. My opinion of this phenomenon is that the real issues are to hard for people to take so they just go off on the dumb stuff. A lot of you do get pretty sensitive with a lot of these subjects.

Kaylore
10-05-2010, 06:41 AM
Hate to break this to Broncomaniacs, but Hillis is already you. Feeling very much at home in a state that is more blue collar than blue skies, Hillis has told my friend Michael Arace of The Columbus Dispatch newspaper, "When I think of Cleveland, I think of me."

Funny, McDaniels rarely thought of Hillis at all. A year ago, Hillis got 13 carries for 54 yards. In Cleveland's victory against Cincinnati on Sunday, Hillis ran 27 times for 102 yards.


I was very frustrated when that trade happened.
Mcd..You did a blunder in trading Hillis.
Now, we are stuck with busts like Moreno and Maroney.
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/E5vJEqsuZo4?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/E5vJEqsuZo4?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

lostknight
10-05-2010, 06:42 AM
Moreno > Hillis

If you think differently, then your football knowledge is weak.

Yet, Hillis is doing what Moreno has been unable to do - consistently get 100 yard rushing a game.

Look, no question that our o-line is bad on the rush. Really really bad. But the trade for Hillis looks just like the trade that Shanny made to get rid of a certain Ravens CB (A move that Mike might have not made and saved his job). It seems more done for personal and political reasons then a abundance of strength at a particular position. Hillis is a walking symbol of a failure of imagination to fans who remembered what he did here to save the team for four games.

Once again, it seems like we have a problem not with the coach acting as coach, but a coach acting like GM. In that role, it's blisteringly difficult not to be critical of these decisions.

And frankly, if you don't decide the above points are fair, then you are a close-minded republican who hates his own race.

(Is that enough of a pointless generalization to answer all of you asshats who keep saying - if you don't agree with me, then you are a idiot?)

(By the way, is there valid reasons to be skeptical of Hillis? Yep, boy appears to be a bit of a egomaniac - not unlike a certain Napoleonic coach I might add - and I really don't think that he can survive the wear and tear the Browns are putting on him. And of course I don't think he would have had any luck running the ball last week here - although he still is a phenominal pass catching back).

go_broncos
10-05-2010, 06:42 AM
Yes there is. It is a new way of blocking though. It is called: "don't click on threads with Hillis in the title"

It is a crazy new idea that some Russian scientist came up with.


I agree with a lot here though. I don't get the Hillis stuff. McDaniels has had many head scratching moves that were much worse than this one. My opinion of this phenomenon is that the real issues are to hard for people to take so they just go off on the dumb stuff. A lot of you do get pretty sensitive with a lot of these subjects.

We are talking about Hillis as our running backs suck and we traded one of the best short yardage backs.

jhns
10-05-2010, 06:45 AM
We are talking about Hillis as our running backs suck and we traded one of the best short yardage backs.

And we are talking about McDaniels run game....

lostknight
10-05-2010, 06:49 AM
god damn this place is about unbearable

Feel free to leave. In fact, let me make you proper compensation for your services to the mane. I will pay you a nickle to do so. Let me know where to send the check.

Seriously folks, can we tone down the rhetoric just a little bit? Bunch of drama-queens here.

Mogulseeker
10-05-2010, 06:50 AM
Yet, Hillis is doing what Moreno has been unable to do - consistantly get 100 yard rushing a game.

Look, no question that our o-line is bad on the rush. Really really bad. But the trade for Hillis looks just like the trade that Shanny made to get rid of a certain Ravens CB (A move that Mike might have not made and saved his job). It seems more done for personal and political reasons then a abundance of strength at a particular position.

Once again, it seems like we have a problem not with the coach acting as coach, but a coach acting like GM. In that role, it's blisteringly difficult not to be critical of these decisions.

And frankly, if you don't decide the above points are fair, then you are a close-minded republican who hates his own race.

(Is that enough of a pointless generalization to answer all of you asshats who keep saying - if you don't agree with me, then you are a idiot?)

Lol if you are talking about Foxworth.

Hillis is a baller. But he isn't as talented as you're making him out to be. Our rushing attack with Moreno would not be better with Hillis on the team. When the line breaks down this quick, the RB has to make a decent cut. Moreno is by far the best back on this team at doing that.

I think the line will come along... some of it has to be inexperience and injuries. Especially Walton and Daniels. Daniels flat out sucks, while Walton has been good in pass protection, he struggles to sustain his run blocks and get to the next level... some of that might be the lack of support from Daniels, though.

Look at Montrose break down of the runs... in fact, I'm going to go rep that post right now.

Steve Prefontaine
10-05-2010, 06:59 AM
It's funny wathcing many of the same people who used to complain about losing Cutler for Orton now move on to Hillis since we clearly "won" the Cutler trade. When the Hillis phenomenon levels off I wonder what their next line of attack will be? We'd be hearing the same moaning and groaning about Brandon Marshall if our WR's and passing game weren't doing so well.
it will go away when a) the broncos start running effectively or b) when hillis doesn't.

spdirty
10-05-2010, 07:45 AM
This.

I wish people would shut up about Hillis.... actually is there any way to block threads with the word "Hillis" in the title?

Not while he's kicking ass in Cleveland and our running game is what it is.

Hillis is a decent power back with a fumble problem. Pass.

Yeah, a back who only fumbles with less than 2 minutes left when you have a 3 point lead and are trying to kill clock is sooooo much better. Besides, even though Hillis didnt fumble in 2008, he did have that one fumble in 2009 against the Raiders, a game we won by 20, and that is flat ass unacceptable! That one fumble should stigmatize him forever beacause of course, the running backs we have now never fumble.::) http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HillPe00.htm

Lendale White > Hillis

And By God we have Lendale White! And he's kicking ass for us this year! Much more than Hillis ever could! Yay!



Look, I went to one game last year against the Pats and the one time all game they let Hillis in there I remember Orton having to call timeout because Hillis didnt know where he was suppose to be. Then when he went to the sideline Turner chewed his ass, and he never came back in. So those who said he was a dumbass who didnt know the playbook, do have that and maybe a bit more to back those claims up with.

And I looked at some stuff Montrose, Dr. Broncenstein, and another posters have put up taking a closer look at our line against Tennessee and Seattle and yeah, our line sucks **** right now. Its really bad.


But if anyone here thinks Hillis couldnt have gained at least 50 all purpose yards (remember, unlike Maroney, he can catch) against Tennessee or that our running game wouldnt at least have something resembling a pulse this year, they're nuts.

I love Hillis, but I agreed with the trade because last year McD did everything in his power not to play Hillis the second half of the season. And its better to get something for him rather than nothing. But it sure would have been nice last year if Hillis would have taken say, Buckhalters role and would have split carries with Moreno last year and this year, I think our running game would look better.

Paladin
10-05-2010, 07:50 AM
I just don't understand the point of this thread.

UberBroncoMan
10-05-2010, 07:50 AM
I wish Hillis was still with us........

......................becuase then he would get stuffed for -2 yards on every play behind our s***y run-blocking and people would stop talking about him..:-)

Nah. His power and legs would get back to the line of scrimmage.

Harvitz81
10-05-2010, 07:51 AM
how many 100 yards rushing does moreno have?
Added to that, he is always injured and soft.
Only in this site, posters have high value for moreno.
None of the teams doesn't care about him.
Let's see when our soft RB will play

Hillis has missed more games than Moreno due to injury. Just saying....

CEH
10-05-2010, 07:57 AM
It's not a matter of gaining 100 yards per se.

If McD is following BB system there is a statisiccal point that says completions + rushing attempts >= 50 you win 75 % of the time

Denver cannot get to that point throwing 70 times a game and they need 20+ rushes to hit that mark . Gettting zero yards on 8 of 10 plays is not acceptable

I'm pretty sure Hillis and his 240 Lb will get more out of his 20 rushes then Moroney and his dancing. He may only get 50 yards but I bet he breaks off a 20 + run somewhere along the line. he took over the 4 min offense on Sunday and ran out the clock

Until Moreno gets his vagina fixed we suck. In fact unless McD was trying to spread the blame and not focuus 100 % on the line he said the backs need to trust the blocks and run to green grass.

Also Stink and Alfred have a current agenda quaestioning the toughness of our Oline. Are these guys really physical enough to make this running scheme work. Take it for what it worth but these are two guys from different sides of the ball questoning our toughness

HAT
10-05-2010, 08:06 AM
i wish hillis was still with us........
























......................becuase then he would get stuffed for -2 yards on every play behind our s***y run-blocking and people would stop talking about him..:-)

^5

Spider
10-05-2010, 08:08 AM
i was all for the Cutler trade , as soon as it was announced Orton was my adopted Bronco , Didnt mind Marshall leaving , Alphonso who ? ....... But Hillis leaving ...... U never get rid of Power football , if we had a Gates , Gonzo , Shockey type of TE , then yeah consider getting rid of Hillis ........ Now before you Idiots go off the deep end and make some claim bout me thinking Hillis is the Next comin , or god like creature ( you ****ers around here do that ) I dont think Hillis gets us a hundred yards a game ........ I think he just scores on the goaline and gets 1 st downs on short yardage .......

Man-Goblin
10-05-2010, 08:17 AM
Things that make me think of Hillis:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:lrWj6eAK6VY9AM:http://msp265.photobucket.com/albums/ii209/Michelle_Kayla/Teddy%20Bears/teddy-bears.jpg&t=1

http://sassywire.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/kaninaskis_alberta.jpg

http://cache.boston.com/resize/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2008/01/11/1200091530_4515/539w.jpg

http://www.kimark-cavaliers.com/images/web%20puppies%20large.jpg

http://polishpoland.com/wild_pig1.jpg

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l728ptDVSN1qzyiuno1_r1_500.jpg

http://www.cracked.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/armadillo.jpg

http://a.espncdn.com/i/magazine/new/harding_kerrigan.jpg

http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/al-roker.jpg

http://www.stratocaster.name/JImi%20Hendrix.jpg

Harvitz81
10-05-2010, 08:17 AM
i was all for the Cutler trade , as soon as it was announced Orton was my adopted Bronco , Didnt mind Marshall leaving , Alphonso who ? ....... But Hillis leaving ...... U never get rid of Power football , if we had a Gates , Gonzo , Shockey type of TE , then yeah consider getting rid of Hillis ........ Now before you Idiots go off the deep end and make some claim bout me thinking Hillis is the Next comin , or god like creature ( you ****ers around here do that ) I dont think Hillis gets us a hundred yards a game ........ I think he just scores on the goaline and gets 1 st downs on short yardage .......

He had opportunities last year to do this behind a better line and failed. Why do you think he could do that this year behind a worse line?

BroncoInferno
10-05-2010, 08:22 AM
Hate to break this to Broncomaniacs, but Hillis is already you. Feeling very much at home in a state that is more blue collar than blue skies, Hillis has told my friend Michael Arace of The Columbus Dispatch newspaper, "When I think of Cleveland, I think of me."

Funny, McDaniels rarely thought of Hillis at all. A year ago, Hillis got 13 carries for 54 yards. In Cleveland's victory against Cincinnati on Sunday, Hillis ran 27 times for 102 yards.


I was very frustrated when that trade happened.
Mcd..You did a blunder in trading Hillis.
Now, we are stuck with busts like Moreno and Maroney.

A prime Earl Campbell wouldn't look good behind the piss poor run blocking our RBs are getting. Moreno will be good once he gets better blocking. Only someone ignorant of football can't see that. Hillis would be struggling here, too.

Rabb
10-05-2010, 08:24 AM
the Hillis argument is pretty genius by the people pining for him really

there is no way to disprove it and he is doing well in Cleveland

it's like saying if we had Elway here right now or TD we would have no problem...nobody can prove or disprove it

go_broncos
10-05-2010, 08:25 AM
He had opportunities last year to do this behind a better line and failed. Why do you think he could do that this year behind a worse line?

how many opportunities was he given?
He is much better than the current running backs we have.

Spider
10-05-2010, 08:26 AM
He had opportunities last year to do this behind a better line and failed. Why do you think he could do that this year behind a worse line?

show me

Spider
10-05-2010, 08:27 AM
McD didnt use Hillis alot last year ... but feel free to show me

go_broncos
10-05-2010, 08:48 AM
He had opportunities last year to do this behind a better line and failed. Why do you think he could do that this year behind a worse line?

Maroney was given many opportunities in couple of games compared to Hillis.

listopencil
10-05-2010, 08:49 AM
I do love this quote:

Every time Orton turns and hands the pigskin to Laurence Maroney, there's such a stinking mess of humanity at the line of scrimmage it's an orgy of football incompetence


Other than that, blah. I doubt that Hillis could do any better than the guys we have now. It's not the running back, or at least not just the running back, that is killing our ground game. I don't know how many of you remember watching Mike Anderson as a rookie. He stepped into a great situation. The system was there. The coaching was there. The blocking was there. The play-calling was there. He was successful, and we did run the ball effectively, but it was obvious that he was the weak link. The guy ran like a blind mule. Throw Hillis into that same situation and he's just as effective. Maybe more effective.

That doesn't work now. We aren't that team anymore. I'm not even referring to talent level, which is obvious, I'm referring to the offense that we run. McD didn't use Hillis because Hillis didn't come with the skillset needed to be successful in McD's offense, and Hillis was apparently not smart enough or open minded enough to change.

So...gratz to Hillis. I'm glad he found a place for himself. I enjoyed watching him run. I wish him all the best unless he plays against my team.

go_broncos
10-05-2010, 08:57 AM
I do love this quote:

Every time Orton turns and hands the pigskin to Laurence Maroney, there's such a stinking mess of humanity at the line of scrimmage it's an orgy of football incompetence


Other than that, blah. I doubt that Hillis could do any better than the guys we have now. It's not the running back, or at least not just the running back, that is killing our ground game. I don't know how many of you remember watching Mike Anderson as a rookie. He stepped into a great situation. The system was there. The coaching was there. The blocking was there. The play-calling was there. He was successful, and we did run the ball effectively, but it was obvious that he was the weak link. The guy ran like a blind mule. Throw Hillis into that same situation and he's just as effective. Maybe more effective.

That doesn't work now. We aren't that team anymore. I'm not even referring to talent level, which is obvious, I'm referring to the offense that we run. McD didn't use Hillis because Hillis didn't come with the skillset needed to be successful in McD's offense, and Hillis was apparently not smart enough or open minded enough to change.

So...gratz to Hillis. I'm glad he found a place for himself. I enjoyed watching him run. I wish him all the best unless he plays against my team.

Why can't you accept that Mcd doesn't understand the running game philosophy?.
Why it is the fault of the player only?
Hillis played well in Shanny system.
Mcd had similar issues in NE when he was the OC.
All they did at that time is to pass the ball.

JoRo
10-05-2010, 08:58 AM
Of course stats cannot support that statement.

Have you watched the Broncos play? Moreno is getting hit 2 yards behind the line. Both of these RBs fall forward. They're both good blockers and receivers... Moreno cuts quicker and, but Hillis gets more yards after the first hit. Moreno is more agile and has much, much better vision. Hillis just runs downhill... but he'd be in the same boat as Moreno statistically in the same system - getting hit 2yds before the line on every play.

The only way to compare the two is to put them both side by side in the same system with the same line. This was the case last year and Moreno clearly outperformed Hillis.

This should be framed and put on the front page of the sports section. Finally someone understands. It's the LINE

Missouribronc
10-05-2010, 09:02 AM
Why can't you accept that Mcd doesn't understand the running game philosophy?.
Why it is the fault of the player only?
Hillis played well in Shanny system.
Mcd had similar issues in NE when he was the OC.
All they did at that time is to pass the ball.

Is that why they (New England) were sixth in rushing in 2008? What an unintelligent comment.

OBF1
10-05-2010, 09:15 AM
Zombie kits.... Get your free Zombie kits

Mogulseeker
10-05-2010, 10:09 AM
All they did at that time is to pass the ball.

And win Super Bowls and almost go undefeated.

Archer81
10-05-2010, 10:22 AM
Why can't you accept that Mcd doesn't understand the running game philosophy?.
Why it is the fault of the player only?
Hillis played well in Shanny system.
Mcd had similar issues in NE when he was the OC.
All they did at that time is to pass the ball.


Oh, you silly little man/woman/it. You should really research this nonsense you spew before you commit to it.


:Broncos:

Kaylore
10-05-2010, 10:38 AM
Here's the truth about Hillis. He's a hard guy to tackle and runs people over. He also has the hands of Calvin Johnson and has great feet. This makes him a threat in the run and pass.

Unfortunately he is also a poor blocker, both in the run and pass game. On blitz recognition he's pretty terrible and when it comes to the actual technique of blocking someone he's below average. He is a better run blocker, likely from his time spent as a FB, but not a great one (Larsen is better.)

On special teams he shows little to no discipline. They tried playing him as a return man to take advantage of his size, hands and keep from having to cover kicks and punts, which he is terrible at. He was below average here as well.

Probably most of all, Hillis is pretty dumb. He has a real problem remembering the game plan. If you watch Browns games, they never ask him to pass block and run a handful of the same running plays every game to keep it simple for him.

Now some are going to say "why can't we use that here?" Because this offense is too cerebral. First of all, rather than what the Browns do, which is call a play and run that play no matter what, the offense gets two plays at the line before the ball is even snapped. Then Orton and the line make sight adjustments based on what they see and the tendencies studied during the week and formations practiced. This means the entire play is changed, or a few players tweak their routes and protections only slightly, depending on the need. For Hillis this is too much. The guy can't process that information. Further, his problems in the blocking department limits his effectiveness if Orton needed to audible to keep him in to block, this is assuming that Hillis has even the slightest idea of what everyone is doing.

Hillis is a great instincts runner with great hands that can run over people. In a simplified offense, where you limit his responsibilities on third down (the Browns never ask him to block, he just runs a Texas route or isn't on the field at all in third and long situations) and you run the same three or four rushing plays where he can just take the ball and get up field and "do his thang," he can be productive.

Not here. We do too much and require players to be intelligent and versatile. Versatile means more than "ZOMG HE RUNS N CACHES TOOOO!!!!". It means being able to adjust on the fly and have intimate knowledge of the playbook to be able to make several changes.

Is it a drawback of this offense? Yes. Compared to an offense of like Shanahan's, where he'd find the few things a guy can do well and use it, it limits the type of personnel this team will look for. Still, you'll be hard pressed to find a coach that let's a back who can't pass protect start. This is why all three coaches have not given him the starting job at the beginning of the seasons. It is also why he fell in the draft.

So there it is. Does that make more sense to some of you? I know for some, like go_denethor, they will never get over the great white hype. But for most of you, you can see the logic in letting him go.

HAT
10-05-2010, 10:38 AM
Why can't you accept that Mcd doesn't understand the running game philosophy?.
Mcd had similar issues in NE when he was the OC.
All they did at that time is to pass the ball.

Josh McDaniels was the OC of the Patriots from 2006-2008.

During that time the Patriots rushed for 127.03 YPG

During that same time frame, The Broncos rushed for 124.4 YPG

Try again you stupid ****.

HAT
10-05-2010, 10:43 AM
Why can't you accept that Mcd doesn't understand the running game philosophy?.
Mcd had similar issues in NE when he was the OC.
All they did at that time is to pass the ball.

Josh McDaniels was the OC of the Patriots from 2006-2008.

During that time, the Patriots rushed the ball 1,463 times.

During that same time frame, the Broncos rushed the ball 1,304 times.

Rulon Velvet Jones
10-05-2010, 10:45 AM
Hillis was too dumb to play in this offense. He's better off in Cleveland where much less is asked of him. How long before we get a Torain thread?

Archer81
10-05-2010, 10:47 AM
Here's the truth about Hillis. He's a hard guy to tackle and runs people over. He also has the hands of Calvin Johnson and has great feet. This makes him a threat in the run and pass.

Unfortunately he is also a poor blocker, both in the run and pass game. On blitz recognition he's pretty terrible and when it comes to the actual technique of blocking someone he's below average. He is a better run blocker, likely from his time spent as a FB, but not a great one (Larsen is better.)

On special teams he shows little to no discipline. They tried playing him as a return man to take advantage of his size, hands and keep from having to cover kicks and punts, which he is terrible at. He was below average here as well.

Probably most of all, Hillis is pretty dumb. He has a real problem remembering the game plan. If you watch Browns games, they never ask him to pass block and run a handful of the same running plays every game to keep it simple for him.

Now some are going to say "why can't we use that here?" Because this offense is too cerebral. First of all, rather than what the Browns do, which is call a play and run that play no matter what, the offense gets two plays at the line before the ball is even snapped. Then Orton and the line make sight adjustments based on what they see and the tendencies studied during the week and formations practiced. This means the entire play is changed, or a few players tweak their routes and protections only slightly, depending on the need. For Hillis this is too much. The guy can't process that information. Further, his problems in the blocking department limits his effectiveness if Orton needed to audible to keep him in to block, this is assuming that Hillis has even the slightest idea of what everyone is doing.

Hillis is a great instincts runner with great hands that can run over people. In a simplified offense, where you limit his responsibilities on third down (the Browns never ask him to block, he just runs a Texas route or isn't on the field at all in third and long situations) and you run the same three or four rushing plays where he can just take the ball and get up field and "do his thang," he can be productive.

Not here. We do too much and require players to be intelligent and versatile. Versatile means more than "ZOMG HE RUNS N CACHES TOOOO!!!!". It means being able to adjust on the fly and have intimate knowledge of the playbook to be able to make several changes.

Is it a drawback of this offense? Yes. Compared to an offense of like Shanahan's, where he'd find the few things a guy can do well and use it, it limits the type of personnel this team will look for. Still, you'll be hard pressed to find a coach that let's a back who can't pass protect start. This is why all three coaches have not given him the starting job at the beginning of the seasons. It is also why he fell in the draft.

So there it is. Does that make more sense to some of you? I know for some, like go_denethor, they will never get over the great white hype. But for most of you, you can see the logic in letting him go.


I agree with this in its entirety.



:Broncos:

HAT
10-05-2010, 10:50 AM
How long before we get a Torain thread?

Hilarious!

People are acting like this was SD getting rid of LT.

Dagmar
10-05-2010, 10:52 AM
Can't we just have a thread titled Cutler, one titled Hillis, one titled Hillis and one titled Nolan? Just let them run and run? No? Maybe?

HAT
10-05-2010, 10:54 AM
Can't we just have a thread titled Cutler, one titled Hillis, one titled Hillis and one titled Nolan? Just let them run and run? No? Maybe?

I lobbied for an ex-Bronco sub forum a while back to no avail.

go_broncos
10-05-2010, 10:55 AM
I am done arguing about hillis.
Mcd is able to replace Cutler and Marshall.
I hope Mcd fixes the running game.
Otherwise, it will be difficult to win games consistently.

Rabb
10-05-2010, 10:56 AM
Hilarious!

People are acting like this was SD getting rid of LT.

well you know, Hillis is only 19 yards behind LT so he must be as good at least...right?

he is also tied with MJD, so he must be as good as him

I guess the Browns are just the smartest team in the league

:strong:

go_broncos
10-05-2010, 10:56 AM
I lobbied for an ex-Bronco sub forum a while back to no avail.

you will never see any thread from me arguing about Hillis.
I am done.
Hopefully, Mcd fixes the running game.

Missouribronc
10-05-2010, 10:58 AM
Can't we just have a thread titled Cutler, one titled Hillis, one titled Hillis and one titled Nolan? Just let them run and run? No? Maybe?

Why does Hillis get two?

ROFL!

I keed!

Missouribronc
10-05-2010, 10:59 AM
I am done arguing about hillis.

Probably a smart move.

Dagmar
10-05-2010, 11:03 AM
Why does Hillis get two?

ROFL!

I keed!

He deserves one for each brain cell.

HAT
10-05-2010, 11:04 AM
Why does Hillis get two?

ROFL!

I keed!

Because he is teh awesome.

misturanderson
10-05-2010, 12:31 PM
show me

Even though I know you've already seen this, you asked for it:

Once again. He did give Hillis short yardage touches last year and he failed at all of them. Here are his short yardage runs and passes from last year outside of the KC game where they couldn't stop anyone running the ball.

Week 1
3-2-DEN 44 (4:28) 8-K.Orton pass incomplete short right to 22-P.Hillis. Hit him in the hands.

Week 2
1-1-OAK 1 (7:56) PENALTY on DEN-22-P.Hillis, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at OAK 1 - No Play.

2-2-OAK 2 (6:42) 22-P.Hillis left guard to OAK 1 for 1 yard (Team).

3-1-OAK 1 (6:02) 22-P.Hillis up the middle to OAK 1 for no gain (Team).

Week 16
3-1-PHI 16 (11:07) 22-P.Hillis up the middle to PHI 16 for no gain (50-W.Witherspoon, 54-J.Trotter).

These also don't include any timeouts that had to be burned because he wasn't lined up in the right place. It also doesn't include his fumble of the opening kickoff of the browns game. The raiders game cemented his spot on the bench because he was so unbelievably bad when he was in there on short yardage inside the 5.

Hillis wasn't used last year because every time he was in the game for the first 3 weeks he screwed up. What is so hard to understand about that?

Spider
10-05-2010, 12:34 PM
Even though I know you've already seen this, you asked for it:

Once again. He did give Hillis short yardage touches last year and he failed at all of them. Here are his short yardage runs and passes from last year outside of the KC game where they couldn't stop anyone running the ball.

Week 1
3-2-DEN 44 (4:28) 8-K.Orton pass incomplete short right to 22-P.Hillis. Hit him in the hands.

Week 2
1-1-OAK 1 (7:56) PENALTY on DEN-22-P.Hillis, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at OAK 1 - No Play.

2-2-OAK 2 (6:42) 22-P.Hillis left guard to OAK 1 for 1 yard (Team).

3-1-OAK 1 (6:02) 22-P.Hillis up the middle to OAK 1 for no gain (Team).

Week 16
3-1-PHI 16 (11:07) 22-P.Hillis up the middle to PHI 16 for no gain (50-W.Witherspoon, 54-J.Trotter).

These also don't include any timeouts that had to be burned because he wasn't lined up in the right place. It also doesn't include his fumble of the opening kickoff of the browns game. The raiders game cemented his spot on the bench because he was so unbelievably bad when he was in there on short yardage inside the 5.

Hillis wasn't used last year because every time he was in the game for the first 3 weeks he screwed up. What is so hard to understand about that?

now show me the times he converted .......... Shouldnt be hard for bright guy like you

Popps
10-05-2010, 12:38 PM
Even though I know you've already seen this, you asked for it:

Once again. He did give Hillis short yardage touches last year and he failed at all of them. Here are his short yardage runs and passes from last year outside of the KC game where they couldn't stop anyone running the ball.

Week 1
3-2-DEN 44 (4:28) 8-K.Orton pass incomplete short right to 22-P.Hillis. Hit him in the hands.

Week 2
1-1-OAK 1 (7:56) PENALTY on DEN-22-P.Hillis, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at OAK 1 - No Play.

2-2-OAK 2 (6:42) 22-P.Hillis left guard to OAK 1 for 1 yard (Team).

3-1-OAK 1 (6:02) 22-P.Hillis up the middle to OAK 1 for no gain (Team).

Week 16
3-1-PHI 16 (11:07) 22-P.Hillis up the middle to PHI 16 for no gain (50-W.Witherspoon, 54-J.Trotter).

These also don't include any timeouts that had to be burned because he wasn't lined up in the right place. It also doesn't include his fumble of the opening kickoff of the browns game. The raiders game cemented his spot on the bench because he was so unbelievably bad when he was in there on short yardage inside the 5.

Hillis wasn't used last year because every time he was in the game for the first 3 weeks he screwed up. What is so hard to understand about that?


Again, if we had a system where a back wasn't asked to do anything but run forward, he'd be great. (Assuming our line could block.)

Apparently, our system asks more of its backs than he was capable of doing.

Again, there is plenty of circumstantial evidence to suggest that he's not the sharpest tool in the shed.

But, of course... I wish it could have worked out. He was fun to watch.

footstepsfrom#27
10-05-2010, 12:43 PM
Moreno > Hillis

If you think differently, then your football knowledge is weak.
So Moreno is currently at least the 7th best ball carrier in the league? Hillis ranks 8th in the NFL in rushing so that's where you're "logic" is taking you.

Fail.

Popps
10-05-2010, 12:43 PM
McDaniels does things his way. People are going to just have to learn to ride it out.

He dumped our offensive "stars," and the passing game hasn't missed a beat.

He dumped almost the entire defense and replaced them... and the defense has improved dramatically.

Now, he's turning his attention to the running game. He's got young guys up front and an injured #1 back, but given his track record... I'm not sure why anyone would assume we won't be running the ball effectively at some point.

These things take time. Give it time, folks.

Taco John
10-05-2010, 12:44 PM
Moreno > Hillis

If you think differently, then your football knowledge is weak.


What football knowledge could possibly point to a lesser productive, unproven back being better than a very productive, proven back?

Spider
10-05-2010, 12:44 PM
Again, if we had a system where a back wasn't asked to do anything but run forward, he'd be great. (Assuming our line could block.)

Apparently, our system asks more of its backs than he was capable of doing.

Again, there is plenty of circumstantial evidence to suggest that he's not the sharpest tool in the shed.

But, of course... I wish it could have worked out. He was fun to watch.

;D I just find MisterAndersons argument funny , he shows Hillis didnt convert 5 times in a season , uses that as his crutch. Just ****ing funny is all ..... if He can show Where Hillis Failed , he can show where Hillis made it ......

Taco John
10-05-2010, 12:50 PM
Apparently, our system asks more of its backs than he was capable of doing.



Apparently, our system asks more of its backs than ANY of our runningbacks are capable of doing.

Rulon Velvet Jones
10-05-2010, 12:51 PM
This feels a lot like the guys in Major League, arguing over the home run pitch.

Curveball? Fastball?

Who gives a ****? It's gone!

Popps
10-05-2010, 12:52 PM
;D I just find MisterAndersons argument funny , he shows Hillis didnt convert 5 times in a season , uses that as his crutch. Just ****ing funny is all ..... if He can show Where Hillis Failed , he can show where Hillis made it ......

Yea man, but McDaniels is just like Shanahan in the sense that he's got a VERY low tolerance for guys ****ing up.

Our system is somewhat complex, apparently... and it's apparent by Hillis' problems on the field last season that he wasn't coming along very well.

Again, there was also the scouting report I posted that said he wasn't a great practice player... and one seemingly credible tip from a camp-dweller who heard that he was having trouble learning the playbook. (I wish that poster would post that on the board himself, but I'm not going to give him up... as he didn't post it for the main board.)


Cleveland has a great line, and he's apparently been able to pick up what he's been asked to do there. It's unfortunate that he couldn't do that with our staff.

Given the great success of so many former Shanahan-guys under McDaniels... Hillis must have done something to give the staff a reason to doubt his abilities to be a consistent player in the system.

Do I wish he was here, running over people? Of course.

Do I think in the long-run, he'll make any difference? No. I've watched McDaniels rebuild other facets of our team and I'm confident he'll get the running game going in time, as well.

Doesn't matter to me who is running the ball, as long as we're winning.

Popps
10-05-2010, 12:54 PM
Apparently, our system asks more of its backs than ANY of our runningbacks are capable of doing.

I don't know... when our line was playing well last season, Moreno had a stretch of 4-5 games where he looked very good, and averaged well over 4 YPC with a decent amount of receptions and TD's.

I've heard nothing about him having problems learning his assignments. Have you?

Now, if you mean that our blockers can't block at this stage... you'll get no argument from me on that.

Popps
10-05-2010, 12:56 PM
Again, look at the kid run when he has a little bit of space...

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/92owAaBGf_A?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/92owAaBGf_A?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

footstepsfrom#27
10-05-2010, 12:58 PM
Again, if we had a system where a back wasn't asked to do anything but run forward, he'd be great. (Assuming our line could block.)

Apparently, our system asks more of its backs than he was capable of doing.

Again, there is plenty of circumstantial evidence to suggest that he's not the sharpest tool in the shed.

But, of course... I wish it could have worked out. He was fun to watch.
Right...Bruce Hall is more capable than Hillis in this system I guess...right. You'll go to ANY absurd lengths to cover for McDaniels mistakes. I'm at least willing to move closer to liking him and crediting him for the things he's doing right now that I see the direction of the team more clearly moving to a physical team, but no coach deserves fans to slavishly defend every move he makes. This was a huge mistake and you and every other poster on this board knows it. Not only is he ranked 8th in the NFL in rushing now, but we all know he catches, blocks, etc...he's a warrior and the only reason he's gone was because McDaniels didn't like him personally for some reason unbeknownst to us. This was not an issue of talent or fitting into the system. Maybe he was a prima donna, maybe McDaniels felt he needed his own man instead of Shanny's at the position...whatever, it doesn't matter, but you need to quit making this about his talent or his head, because it's clear the guy's an NFL back.

We could use one right now that's capable of running over people even when there are no holes. Moreno even when healthy doesn't do that anywhere near like Hillis does. Face it...good coaches make mistakes too so it's OK to admit this one. NOT admitting it just make you look silly and like you're in denial.

It aint just a river in Egypt ya know?

TonyR
10-05-2010, 12:58 PM
So Moreno is currently at least the 7th best ball carrier in the league? Hillis ranks 8th in the NFL in rushing so that's where you're "logic" is taking you.


So because 4 games into the season he has the 8th most rushing yards Hillis is the 8th best RB in the league? You might want to be careful throwing the word "fail" around...

Popps
10-05-2010, 01:03 PM
It aint just a river in Egypt ya know?

Why is it McDaniels' mistake and not Hillis'?

Was McDaniels false-starting and fumbling kickoffs out there, or was that Hillis?


Some guys do well in some systems, and some don't. AGAIN, three different coaching staffs chose to make him a reserve player. He's NEVER been a starter in his life at RB, and couldn't even hold down a starting FB gig as a pro.

So, don't blame me, blame all of these highly-paid, highly-experienced NFL coaches.

Now, if you want to blame McDaniels for our line's problems, I'll buy some of that. But, you also have to give him time to fix it.

Hillis screwed up when given the chance last year, and has had a couple of good games for another team. Let's let the whole story play out before we start accusing people of "mistakes."

TonyR
10-05-2010, 01:03 PM
We could use one right now that's capable of running over people even when there are no holes.

I love this meme I see all over this forum. Hillis would run over people when there are no holes. When a RB takes a handoff and almost immediately gets hit, sometimes by 2 or 3 defensive players, you think he's going to run somebody over? Takes a little bit of momentum to run over front 7 defensive players, most of whom are bigger than you. You really need to think this through a little. Hillis probably has less footspeed and lateral quicks than Moreno and Maroney so he'd probably be even less successful with no room to run.

Rabb
10-05-2010, 01:05 PM
Why is it McDaniels' mistake and not Hillis'?

Was McDaniels false-starting and fumbling kickoffs out there, or was that Hillis?


Some guys do well in some systems, and some don't. AGAIN, three different coaching staffs chose to make him a reserve player. He's NEVER been a starter in his life at RB, and couldn't even hold down a starting FB gig as a pro.

So, don't blame me, blame all of these highly-paid, highly-experienced NFL coaches.

Now, if you want to blame McDaniels for our line's problems, I'll buy some of that. But, you also have to give him time to fix it.

Hillis screwed up when given the chance last year, and has had a couple of good games for another team. Let's let the whole story play out before we start accusing people of "mistakes."

Phonz is a great example of your point also Popps

wasn't getting it done, got a fresh start in a new system and is playing better

Phonz has 2 picks now also, so I guess that makes him better than Champ

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 01:06 PM
Here's the truth about Hillis. He's a hard guy to tackle and runs people over. He also has the hands of Calvin Johnson and has great feet.


http://www.gifsoup.com/view/95201/it-crowd-gtfo-o.gif

Popps
10-05-2010, 01:07 PM
Phonz is a great example of your point also Popps

wasn't getting it done, got a fresh start in a new system and is playing better

How many guys were great in Shanny's system, and then faded into obscurity?

It happens.

No one was more excited to see Hillis work out than I was, and no one was more disappointed.

I just happen to believe that there were probably legitimate reasons he didn't work out, as opposed to conspiracy stuff or McDaniels just "making a mistake."

Taco John
10-05-2010, 01:08 PM
Frankly, I'm not impressed with any offensive system where someone with the talent of Hillis can be traded away. And frankly, I don't believe it. I've been reading a lot about the spread offense lately, and Urban Meyer's philosophy on playmakers. The whole point of the spread offense is to be able to get the ball in your playmakers hands. Urban Meyer say that the entire key to succeeding with the Spread Option is to adapt it to the your personnel. And one of the four major keys to winning when you are using a spread option is to score in the red zone. Urban Meyer has been known to say that if a coach complains that he doesn't have the players to run his offense, than that coach needs to be fired. The spread option is about adapting to your personnel, not about bringing in the right prototype.

Josh certainly isn't running a pure spread offense in the way Meyer ran it. Meyer's spread option is a run first offense, and we're clearly not that. But I simply don't believe the notion that Hillis couldn't have success in this offense. He's not a dancer, he's a downhill runner. He is able to blow through holes, and even create his own.

(I'd like to thank Florida Bronco for waking me up to the reality that we're not running a pure Earhardt-Perkins offense, which you'll find a lot of information out there saying that we are. After doing a lot of reading and research and studying our formations, it's more than clear that we're using the spread option philosophy along with a playbook that borrows the best things from the major football schools of thought, including both Earnhardt Perkins as well as WCO.)

Rabb
10-05-2010, 01:08 PM
How many guys were great in Shanny's system, and then faded into obscurity?

It happens.

No one was more excited to see Hillis work out than I was, and no one was more disappointed.

I just happen to believe that there were probably legitimate reasons he didn't work out, as opposed to conspiracy stuff or McDaniels just "making a mistake."

totally agree

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 01:11 PM
Frankly, I'm not impressed with any offensive system where someone with the talent of Hillis can be traded away.

So you're attempting to say you're not impressed with this offensive system? LOL

So you're basing a whole impression of an offensive system off of Peyton Hillis?
Hilarious!

Taco John
10-05-2010, 01:15 PM
So you're attempting to say you're not impressed with this offensive system? LOL


Not yet I'm not. There's no balance to it. In a spread option, the defense practically dictates what the offense is going to do by how they line up. If run is there, then you run. If pass is there then you pass. At some point in time, teams are going to do everything they can to take away the pass and force us to run the ball. I suspect that what we'll see this week from the Ravens. I just hope when that happens we can.

Popps
10-05-2010, 01:15 PM
Hillis couldn't have success in this offense. He's not a dancer, he's a downhill runner. He is able to blow through holes, and even create his own.

Taco, there has to BE holes to run through them.

We all saw last year how Hillis did when there were no holes to run through... the same as most backs.

Again, look at Moreno's clip above. When there's ANY semblance of space, he makes something happen.

When 3 guys are waiting for him to take the handoff... not so much.

Taco John
10-05-2010, 01:16 PM
So you're basing a whole impression of an offensive system off of Peyton Hillis?
Hilarious!

Not at all. Not sure where you'd get that idea. There's plenty of offense established to judge it by. We're 4 weeks into the season by now.

Taco John
10-05-2010, 01:17 PM
Taco, there has to BE holes to run through them.

There HAS been. They don't last long, this is true. But holes are there and Josh has said as much. Our runningbacks aren't hitting them before they close.

Spider
10-05-2010, 01:17 PM
Frankly, I'm not impressed with any offensive system where someone with the talent of Hillis can be traded away. And frankly, I don't believe it. I've been reading a lot about the spread offense lately, and Urban Meyer's philosophy on playmakers. The whole point of the spread offense is to be able to get the ball in your playmakers hands. Urban Meyer say that the entire key to succeeding with the Spread Option is to adapt it to the your personnel. And one of the four major keys to winning when you are using a spread option is to score in the red zone. Urban Meyer has been known to say that if a coach complains that he doesn't have the players to run his offense, than that coach needs to be fired. The spread option is about adapting to your personnel, not about bringing in the right prototype.

Josh certainly isn't running a pure spread offense in the way Meyer ran it. Meyer's spread option is a run first offense, and we're clearly not that. But I simply don't believe the notion that Hillis couldn't have success in this offense. He's not a dancer, he's a downhill runner. He is able to blow through holes, and even create his own.

(I'd like to thank Florida Bronco for waking me up to the reality that we're not running a pure Earhardt-Perkins offense, which you'll find a lot of information out there saying that we are. After doing a lot of reading and research and studying our formations, it's more than clear that we're using the spread option philosophy along with a playbook that borrows the best things from the major football schools of thought, including both Earnhardt Perkins as well as WCO.)
well in Fairness MisterAnderson did show 5 times during a season ( not just 1 game but a season) count em 5 times over 16 games where Hillis failed to pick up first down ......... Ask MisterAndrson he will show you ...... Hilarious!

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 01:17 PM
Not yet I'm not. There's no balance to it. In a spread option, the defense practically dictates what the offense is going to do by how they line up. If run is there, then you run. If pass is there then you pass. At some point in time, teams are going to do everything they can to take away the pass and force us to run the ball. I suspect that what we'll see this week from the Ravens. I just hope when that happens we can.

So you're unimpressed with an offense that is 4th best in the league and the best passing offense in the league that has absolutely no running game, worst in the league. Pretty much passing it down the defenses throats when they know we're going to pass. And let's not add the oline struggles.

Yeah, there's really nothing to be impressed with what McDaniels has installed here.

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 01:19 PM
There HAS been. They don't last long, this is true. But holes are there and Josh has said as much. Our runningbacks aren't hitting them before they close.

You screwed up his words.

There you go again ****ing up facts in order to benefit Peyton Hillis and down the Broncos players, and SoCal gets mad at Dagmar for what he said.

LOL

Spider
10-05-2010, 01:20 PM
Failed 5 times in a season to get first down ........... Dayum lucky for Hillis he wasnt arrested for impersonating a football player ........

Spider
10-05-2010, 01:21 PM
So you're unimpressed with an offense that is 4th best in the league and the best passing offense in the league that has absolutely no running game, worst in the league. Pretty much passing it down the defenses throats when they know we're going to pass. And let's not add the oline struggles.

Yeah, there's really nothing to be impressed with what McDaniels has installed here.
not speaking for Taco here .......
But Yeah , Passing game is great , but you need a ground game , even the Saints can run the ball ......

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 01:21 PM
Not at all. Not sure where you'd get that idea. There's plenty of offense established to judge it by. We're 4 weeks into the season by now.

Frankly, I'm not impressed with any offensive system where someone with the talent of Hillis can be traded away.

Are you serious right now or are you blinded by your Hillis obsession?

go_broncos
10-05-2010, 01:22 PM
It's waste to argue..
The main thing everyone wants to see is that we run the ball effectively.
I felt sad when we started throwing on 3rd and 1 as we couldn't run the ball.
It's Mcd's problem how he fixes the running game.
Hopefully, he fixes it starting this week as Orton will not survive the season if he keeps throwing the ball 40-50 times a game.

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 01:22 PM
not speaking for Taco here .......
But Yeah , Passing game is great , but you need a ground game , even the Saints can run the ball ......

Yeah, I'm not saying otherwise either. WE need to run the ball to last but to sit here and say you're unimpressed with what we've done based off of Peyton Hillis is on some other topic rather than football.

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 01:24 PM
I'm curious, are Chargers fans even remotely as obsessed with LT as you ****s are with Hillis? Given the fact that LT is looking great again... OBVIOUSLY DUE TO A HUGE UPGRADE IN THE LINE HE'S RUNNING BEHIND?

Taco John
10-05-2010, 01:24 PM
So you're unimpressed with an offense that is 4th best in the league and the best passing offense in the league that has absolutely no running game, worst in the league. Pretty much passing it down the defenses throats when they know we're going to pass. And let's not add the oline struggles.

Yeah, there's really nothing to be impressed with what McDaniels has installed here.


4th best in the league in scoring or yardage?

I'm not saying that this offense is hopeless. I'm just saying that it's incredibly unbalanced, and over the long term, that imbalance threatens to cost us.

Taco John
10-05-2010, 01:25 PM
Are you serious right now or are you blinded by your Hillis obsession?

Can you post the next sentance after that? You seem to have read only what you wanted to, and cast aside what didn't fit your little argument.

Que
10-05-2010, 01:26 PM
I really hate the Hillis arguments. But, I must point out that in the few chances that McD threw Hillis's way last year, he completely wiffed on them. Blown assignments, dropped balls, penalties. Hey basically performed to the level of ST fodder when given the chance (few chances it was). Heck I remember him being yanked from ST because of him being such a liability.

Look, I like the guy. I like what he represents - the underdog. The guy no one gave a chance. I hope he totes the rock for 2,000 this year in Cleveland. But he certainly didn't make his case in 2009. But but but what about 2008 I hear from the Hillis fans. Well, if we go by prior performance being an indicator of future results, shouldn't Tatum be inducted into the HoF and Q be the scat back game changer that revolutionized the league?

Rabb
10-05-2010, 01:26 PM
4th best in the league in scoring or yardage?

I'm not saying that this offense is hopeless. I'm just saying that it's incredibly unbalanced, and over the long term, that imbalance threatens to cost us.

I agree with you Taco

it's 2008 all over again kids

Spider
10-05-2010, 01:26 PM
Yeah, I'm not saying otherwise either. WE need to run the ball to last but to sit here and say you're unimpressed with what we've done based off of Peyton Hillis is on some other topic rather than football.

well with me not to sure if it is Hillis , or the fact we didnt replace him with anyone .... who is the go to back in Denver right now ? ........I have said over and over Hillis isnt a feature back , hell not even a Fullback , but he was better then what we have now ......

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 01:28 PM
4th best in the league in scoring or yardage?

I'm not saying that this offense is hopeless. I'm just saying that it's incredibly unbalanced, and over the long term, that imbalance threatens to cost us.

Yardage - offenses are based on yardage unless indicated otherwise.

I'm not saying you're saying it's hopeless, but you said you're unimpressed since we traded away Hillis, therefore it's not possible for you to ever be impressed.

It's really a joke how ridiculous your statements are.

go_broncos
10-05-2010, 01:28 PM
I'm curious, are Chargers fans even remotely as obsessed with LT as you ****s are with Hillis? Given the fact that LT is looking great again... OBVIOUSLY DUE TO A HUGE UPGRADE IN THE LINE HE'S RUNNING BEHIND?

you will not see threads related to cutler(very few) , marshall or Schefler because Mcd replaced them effectively.
Once we have good running game, everyone will forget Hillis.
Right now, i feel he is better than our current running backs.

Rabb
10-05-2010, 01:30 PM
Yardage - offenses are based on yardage unless indicated otherwise

actually offenses are based on scoring, again...this is 2008 redux

I am happy with how we move the ball, but not scoring and not being balanced should be a concern for all of us

Spider
10-05-2010, 01:31 PM
I really hate the Hillis arguments. But, I must point out that in the few chances that McD threw Hillis's way last year, he completely wiffed on them. Blown assignments, dropped balls, penalties. Hey basically performed to the level of ST fodder when given the chance (few chances it was). Heck I remember him being yanked from ST because of him being such a liability.

Look, I like the guy. I like what he represents - the underdog. The guy no one gave a chance. I hope he totes the rock for 2,000 this year in Cleveland. But he certainly didn't make his case in 2009. But but but what about 2008 I hear from the Hillis fans. Well, if we go by prior performance being an indicator of future results, shouldn't Tatum be inducted into the HoF and Q be the scat back game changer that revolutionized the league?
5 times in year he wiffed ........ I think Hillis should have done some jail time or something ........ At least community service

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 01:32 PM
Can you post the next sentance after that? You seem to have read only what you wanted to, and cast aside what didn't fit your little argument.

... you said and frankly you don't believe it... but Hillis DID get traded away...

It's October.

Spider
10-05-2010, 01:32 PM
And to trade him for a stand out QB like Quinn ....Good thing the Browns didnt know abut the 5 times ........

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 01:34 PM
actually offenses are based on scoring, again...this is 2008 redux

I am happy with how we move the ball, but not scoring and not being balanced should be a concern for all of us

No it is not.

There is already a thread on this.

When you hear people refer to offenses, as in the #1 offense, it'll always be based off yardage. If you're basing it off points, it will be indicated.

Just like defense is based off yardage.

Are points more important at the end of the day?

Obviously. However when you're talking about an offense you're usually talking about yardage and how well they can move the ball.

Moving the ball comes 1st, then scoring.

misturanderson
10-05-2010, 01:35 PM
now show me the times he converted .......... Shouldnt be hard for bright guy like you

He got 2 yards on 1st and 10 and caught a 6 yard pass on 1st and 10 against Cincy, caught a 4 yard pass on 2nd and 9 against B'more, got a 3 yard pass on 2nd and 8 in the 2nd SD game and had one rush for 2 yards on 1st and 10 against Indy.

He also had 2 3rd down (one short yardage) conversions and a couple decent runs against KC, but that was against their 2nd string D, after the game was over against a team that hadn't even come close to stopping either of the other 2 backs prior to him getting a shot.

So all in all, he had one good game (same game that the whole team played extremely well and the opponent played like ****) and converted 1 out of 6 short yardage tries last year.

He played like **** for us last year and we're lucky anyone would give us anything for him after how he played. He was great the year before when he got his shot and he's been good this year. It doesn't change the fact that when Josh McDaniels was able to see him practice and play, he sucked. It was in no way questionable, given those circumstances, that he was shipped out by Josh McDaniels.

We have also had a rash of RB injuries this year that nearly rivals 2008, so acting like we didn't do anything to try and shore up the RB position is a bit dishonest.

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 01:37 PM
you will not see threads related to cutler(very few) , marshall or Schefler because Mcd replaced them effectively.
Once we have good running game, everyone will forget Hillis.


I agree with you for once with what I quoted.

However, will everyone forget Hillis once we have a good running game or will they still be on his nuts if he keeps up his production?

I can easily see the same people saying Hillis would have broke XXX more yardage if he was here.

Rabb
10-05-2010, 01:37 PM
lol, ok man

since there is an official thread on it, I guess I lose

Spider
10-05-2010, 01:38 PM
He got 2 yards on 1st and 10 and caught a 6 yard pass on 1st and 10 against Cincy, caught a 4 yard pass on 2nd and 9 against B'more, got a 3 yard pass on 2nd and 8 in the 2nd SD game and had one rush for 2 yards on 1st and 10 against Indy.

He also had 2 3rd down (one short yardage) conversions and a couple decent runs against KC, but that was against their 2nd string D, after the game was over against a team that hadn't even come close to stopping either of the other 2 backs prior to him getting a shot.

So all in all, he had one good game (same game that the whole team played extremely well and the opponent played like ****) and converted 1 out of 6 short yardage tries last year.

He played like **** for us last year and we're lucky anyone would give us anything for him after how he played. He was great the year before when he got his shot and he's been good this year. It doesn't change the fact that when Josh McDaniels was able to see him practice and play, he sucked. It was in no way questionable, given those circumstances, that he was shipped out by Josh McDaniels.
OMG he extended some drives also .......... Well forget the Idea of Putting him in Jail ........ Just some community service ........

jhns
10-05-2010, 01:39 PM
I just happen to believe that there were probably legitimate reasons he didn't work out, as opposed to conspiracy stuff or McDaniels just "making a mistake."

LOL

It just isn't possible that McDaniels has made any mistakes. When McDaniels and Bowlen both said that McDaniels had made mistakes, they were just kidding and trying to start stuff on the forums...

Grumps
10-05-2010, 01:41 PM
No it is not.

There is already a thread on this.

When you hear people refer to offenses, as in the #1 offense, it'll always be based off yardage. If you're basing it off points, it will be indicated.

Just like defense is based off yardage.

Are points more important at the end of the day?

Obviously. However when you're talking about an offense you're usually talking about yardage and how well they can move the ball.

Moving the ball comes 1st, then scoring.

No offense, but that is retarded. When I think of best offenses, I think of offenses that put up 6's not rack up 80 yards and settle for 3 or turn the ball over.

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 01:42 PM
lol, ok man

since there is an official thread on it, I guess I lose

Yeah, I used the thread to solidify that as an official statement...

rather than so you can look it up for more information.

http://upshizzle.com/pfiles/4022/elementary.jpg

go_broncos
10-05-2010, 01:44 PM
I agree with you for once with what I quoted.

However, will everyone forget Hillis once we have a good running game or will they still be on his nuts if he keeps up his production?

I can easily see the same people saying Hillis would have broke XXX more yardage if he was here.

You will see few posters creating threads about Hillis(similar to cutler).
As far as i am concerned, i don't care once Mcd fixes the running game.
I just hope he fixes it from next game.
Orton will not last if he keeps throwing the ball that many times.

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 01:45 PM
No offense, but that is retarded. When I think of best offenses, I think of offenses that put up 6's not rack up 80 yards and settle for 3 or turn the ball over.

You have to be able to rack up 80 yards before you can put up 6.

Again, I'm not saying points aren't important, all I'm saying is offenses are officially ranked by yardage, unless indicated other wise.

Anytime you see ANY team referred to as the #x ranked offense, it's based off yardage, not points, unless indicated otherwise.

Like I said, it's the SAME as defenses being ranked off yardage and not points.

If you have MORE yardage than other teams but less points, you're obviously having trouble in the redzone.

If you have LESS yardage than other teams but more points, obviously you have a good D or special teams.

Think about it.

Rabb
10-05-2010, 01:45 PM
No offense, but that is retarded. When I think of best offenses, I think of offenses that put up 6's not rack up 80 yards and settle for 3 or turn the ball over.

no no you have it all wrong, I am sure that after the Colts game they had cookies and punch and high fives all around because after all...

we beat them offensively according to the official thread here on what offense is supposed to be!!!

^5

driver
10-05-2010, 01:46 PM
Moreno, 947 yards over the course of 16 games in one season.
Hillis, 719 yards over the course of 30 games in three seasons.

Numbers that matter:
moreno 2010 39 att.111yds. 2.8 avg.
hillis 2010 66 att. 322 yda 4.9avg

moreno 2009 247 att 947 yds 3.8avg
Hillis 2009 13 att 54 yds 4.2 avg he really was given a chance, HUH?

Hillis 2008 68 att. 343 yds. 5.0 avg

totals
Moreno 286 atts 1058 yds 3.699 avg.
Hillis 147 att. 719 yds 4.89 avg Who's better now You judge.

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 01:46 PM
no no you have it all wrong, I am sure that after the Colts game they had cookies and punch and high fives all around because after all...

we beat them offensively according to the official thread here on what offense is supposed to be!!!

^5
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/3/2j5aqdu.jpg

Taco John
10-05-2010, 01:49 PM
I just happen to believe that there were probably legitimate reasons he didn't work out, as opposed to conspiracy stuff or McDaniels just "making a mistake."

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/9056/conspiracy1.gif

misturanderson
10-05-2010, 01:50 PM
OMG he extended some drives also .......... Well forget the Idea of Putting him in Jail ........ Just some community service ........

Good point, he had one good game in garbage time against 2nd stringers and an epic number of screwups in his first 3 games. He certainly should have continued to get shots at playing time. LOL

I mean think of what would have been if only Shanny hadn't benched Andre Hall permanantly for 2 fumbles in the same game after a decent start to his career, or if he hadn't benched Mike Bell for bad practice habits and a fumble after a rookie season that was arguably better than Hillis'.

How could McDaniels be so short sighted as to not see the greatness through the crap that he was actually witnessing? Hillis had 2 exceptional games prior to last year. Why would he continue getting chances when he screwed up on ALL of the chances he got at the start of the season? He wasn't a proven back, just a guy with a couple good games and an injury that put him on IR.

Oh I forgot, it's because he's automatic in short yardage and you don't trade "power".

Spider
10-05-2010, 01:50 PM
Numbers that matter:
moreno 2010 39 att.111yds. 2.8 avg.
hillis 2010 66 att. 322 yda 4.9avg

moreno 2009 247 att 947 yds 3.8avg
Hillis 2009 13 att 54 yds 4.2 avg he really was given a chance, HUH?

Hillis 2008 68 att. 343 yds. 5.0 avg

totals
Moreno 286 atts 1058 yds 3.699 avg.
Hillis 147 att. 719 yds 4.89 avg Who's better now You judge.

But Hillis missed 5 times on 3 rd down in 16 games ........ so naturally Hillis is a bust ....... why is that so hard to understand ? ;D

Spider
10-05-2010, 01:52 PM
Good point, he had one good game in garbage time against 2nd stringers and an epic number of screwups in his first 3 games. He certainly should have continued to get shots at playing time. LOL

I mean think of what would have been if only Shanny hadn't benched Andre Hall permanantly for 2 fumbles in the same game after a decent 1st year, or if he hadn't benched Mike Bell for bad practice habits and a fumble after a rookie season that was arguably better than Hillis'.

How could McDaniels be so short sighted as to not see the greatness through the crap that he was actually witnessing? Hillis had 2 exceptional games prior to last year. Why would he continue getting chances when he screwed up on ALL of the chances he got at the start of the season? He wasn't a proven back, just a guy with a couple good games and an injury that put him on IR.

Oh I forgot, it's because he's automatic in short yardage and you don't trade "power".Hey I saw the light , 5 times in 16 games ........ I am all for Community service ........ Lynching the bastard would probably be a tad bit to harsh

Spider
10-05-2010, 01:53 PM
moreno 2009 247 att 947 yds 3.8avg
Hillis 2009 13 att 54 yds 4.2 avg he really was given a chance, HUH? But he missed 5 times over 16 games to convert 3 rd down .........

misturanderson
10-05-2010, 01:55 PM
Hey I saw the light , 5 times in 16 games ........ I am all for Community service ........ Lynching the bastard would probably be a tad bit to harsh

and 4 of those were in the first 3 games. It also doesn't include the timeouts that had to be called because he was out of position or the fumble on the opening kickoff of the 2nd game which understandably kept him sidelined the rest of the game.

Keep telling yourself that he just "didn't get a shot" and that all of the blame falls on McDaniels for not seeing how great and "powerful" he was.

Spider
10-05-2010, 01:57 PM
and 4 of those were in the first 3 games. It also doesn't include the timeouts that had to be called because he was out of position or the fumble on the opening kickoff of the 2nd game which understandably kept him sidelined the rest of the game.

Keep telling yourself that he just "didn't get a shot" and that all of the blame falls on McDaniels for not seeing how great he was.

Yeah ...... 5 times he missed in 16 games ..... I know I got it .....he is a lousy bastard ..... I see your point now

misturanderson
10-05-2010, 01:58 PM
Yeah ...... 5 times he missed in 16 games ..... I know I got it .....he is a lousy bastard ..... I see your point now

Let's keep it simple, he screwed up probably 6 times in 3 games then was benched except for garbage time like a ****ty 3rd string RB should be.

Taco John
10-05-2010, 02:00 PM
Josh McDaniels:

We had opportunities yesterday in the running game that we did not take advantage of, no question about it. That is not aimed at one specific player. I have said it a million times that your ability to run the ball effectively is a combination of a lot of people doing their job the right way. If one person doesn’t (do their job well) — whether that be somebody blocking, somebody is supposed to move up to the linebacker level, some kind of read the running back is supposed to make, the receiver finishing his block on a safety or a corner — there are a lot of little things that add up to a lot of hidden yardage in a game and you come out of a game with whatever number of yards you rushed for. You can always go through the film and say, ‘Wow, this looks pretty good to start,’ and then you finish watching the play and it was a 3-yard gain. So, there’s a good thing about this and a bad thing. The good thing is we really don’t have anybody in our backfield and a good running game always starts with eliminating negative plays, which we seem to be able to do that. We feel like the effectiveness of our running game will improve when we finish the play better — as well as we startedWhen we start the play well, it looks good. We have a hole, we have a place to run sometimes, and maybe we didn’t finish a block right, we didn’t make a right read in the running game. — whatever it may be — and those yards, instead of having a 3-yard gain you get a 21-yard gain and all of sudden your average is four-and-a-half yards a carry. Right now, we are missing those and we’ve got to continue to work and continue to plug away. Like I said, the good thing is we are not going backwards. We had one (negative) carry yesterday. We had very few of those in the first two games also. Once we start finishing plays as well as we start them, I think our running game will be much improved.”

Pony Boy
10-05-2010, 02:00 PM
What's not to like about this kid ........better than "Dancing with the Stars" Maroney and Moreno

Spider
10-05-2010, 02:02 PM
What's not to like about this kid ........better than "Dancing with the Stars" Maroney and Moreno

what ? Hillis blew it 5 times over 16 games last year ........count em 5 ..... of Course once I learned this , I was all for lynching Hillis , but cooler heads prevailed ;D

misturanderson
10-05-2010, 02:02 PM
Josh McDaniels:

We had opportunities yesterday in the running game that we did not take advantage of, no question about it. That is not aimed at one specific player. I have said it a million times that your ability to run the ball effectively is a combination of a lot of people doing their job the right way. If one person doesn’t (do their job well) — whether that be somebody blocking, somebody is supposed to move up to the linebacker level, some kind of read the running back is supposed to make, the receiver finishing his block on a safety or a corner — there are a lot of little things that add up to a lot of hidden yardage in a game and you come out of a game with whatever number of yards you rushed for. You can always go through the film and say, ‘Wow, this looks pretty good to start,’ and then you finish watching the play and it was a 3-yard gain. So, there’s a good thing about this and a bad thing. The good thing is we really don’t have anybody in our backfield and a good running game always starts with eliminating negative plays, which we seem to be able to do that. We feel like the effectiveness of our running game will improve when we finish the play better — as well as we startedWhen we start the play well, it looks good. We have a hole, we have a place to run sometimes, and maybe we didn’t finish a block right, we didn’t make a right read in the running game. — whatever it may be — and those yards, instead of having a 3-yard gain you get a 21-yard gain and all of sudden your average is four-and-a-half yards a carry. Right now, we are missing those and we’ve got to continue to work and continue to plug away. Like I said, the good thing is we are not going backwards. We had one (negative) carry yesterday. We had very few of those in the first two games also. Once we start finishing plays as well as we start them, I think our running game will be much improved.”

I think he's referring to the OL and the RBs, which I don't think anyone is arguing. Both the OL and the RB and the playcaller have to be screwing up somehow for the run game to be this bad.

How is it that every team that we play seems to know when we're going to run the ball even when we run it so few times per game?

Spider
10-05-2010, 02:02 PM
Let's keep it simple, he screwed up probably 6 times in 3 games then was benched except for garbage time like a ****ty 3rd string RB should be.

Show me the 6 th one ..........

Taco John
10-05-2010, 02:04 PM
You can see it in the plays, and Josh has commented on it in his press conferences. Holes are there. They don't necessarily last long, but they're there. But our runningbacks (and Maroney seems to be just awful at this) drift sideways instead of forward, and take longer to get there, or simply mis read what is there and available for them.

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 02:06 PM
You can see it in the plays, and Josh has commented on it in his press conferences. Holes are there. They don't necessarily last long, but they're there. But our runningbacks (and Maroney seems to be just awful at this) drift sideways instead of forward, and take longer to get there, or simply mis read what is there and available for them.

Again he did not say this.

Please stop manipulating his words in your and Peyton Hillis' benefit and the Broncos RB's detriment.

Taco John
10-05-2010, 02:07 PM
I think he's referring to the OL and the RBs, which I don't think anyone is arguing. Both the OL and the RB and the playcaller have to be screwing up somehow for the run game to be this bad.

How is it that every team that we play seems to know when we're going to run the ball even when we run it so few times per game?


The bolded is not the case at all. We are running a spread option offensive philosophy. The option means that we run or pass depending on what the pre-snap read of the defense is.

Taco John
10-05-2010, 02:09 PM
Again he did not say this.

Please stop manipulating his words in your and Peyton Hillis' benefit and the Broncos RB's detriment.

Hard to manipulate a direct statement:

"We have a hole, we have a place to run sometimes, and maybe we didn’t finish a block right, we didn’t make a right read in the running game."


You're welcome to spin and/or ignore what he says to fit whatever it is you are trying to say, but Josh has made it clear that our running game woes aren't strictly o-line based problems. That quote, in full context, speaks for itself in this regard. I have no need to manipulate it. It is what it is.

Dagmar
10-05-2010, 02:12 PM
You screwed up his words.

There you go again ****ing up facts in order to benefit Peyton Hillis and down the Broncos players, and SoCal gets mad at Dagmar for what he said.

LOL

Hey now, I'm not part of this, the last Hillis thread I got involved in ended up with all hell breaking loose!

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 02:15 PM
Hard to manipulate a direct statement:

"We have a hole, we have a place to run sometimes, and maybe we didn’t finish a block right, we didn’t make a right read in the running game."


You're welcome to spin and/or ignore what he says to fit whatever it is you are trying to say, but Josh has made it clear that our running game woes aren't strictly o-line based problems. That quote, in context, speaks for itself.

This is not all he said. I've watched all his pressers, and he's addressed it more than once.

The bottom line is, everyone has to be in sync and everyone isn't. Sometimes the RB's "don't see the play correctly" sometimes they have to "trust" for the plays to be there. Sometimes they have to be more "patient", etc it's a lot of **** not going right. Sometimes the holes aren't there right away and they have to wait, etc. It's not just, the holes are there and the RBs aren't quick enough to blast through them as you're trying to portray.

The fact that you simply said there are holes but the RBs aren't getting through quickly enough is half assing the truth.

During the Titans games, there were NO holes for the most part other than the Stanley Daniels **** up.

McDaniels has reiterated many times it's not JUST the oline and no one is denying that... however it's pretty damn obvious the oline is getting dominated in the run game to begin with and that's where it STARTS.

Taco John
10-05-2010, 02:23 PM
This is not all he said. I've watched all his pressers, and he's addressed it more than once.

The bottom line is, everyone has to be in sync and everyone isn't. Sometimes the RB's "don't see the play correctly" sometimes they have to "trust" for the plays to be there. Sometimes they have to be more "patient", etc it's a lot of **** not going right. Sometimes the holes aren't there right away and they have to wait, etc. It's not just, the holes are there and the RBs aren't quick enough to blast through them as you're trying to portray.

The fact that you simply said there are holes but the RBs aren't getting through quickly enough is half assing the truth.

During the Titans games, there were NO holes for the most part other than the Stanley Daniels **** up.

McDaniels has reiterated many times it's not JUST the oline and no one is denying that... however it's pretty damn obvious the oline is getting dominated in the run game to begin with and that's where it STARTS.

You're cherry picking. I can't make an argument against someone who wants to cherry pick what the coach is and isn't saying, and then says blatantly false things about whether there are holes there or not. McDaniels has commented in his press conferences that there are holes there. We saw from the videos that Montrose and Doc Bronc posted yesterday that holes develop early and Maroney drifts and dances and doesn't hit them in good time. If McDaniels own words and video evidence doesn't do it for you, then nothing will. You're content to stick with your opinion, and I'm content to leave it at that.

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 02:25 PM
You're cherry picking. I can't make an argument against someone who wants to cherry pick what the coach is and isn't saying, and then says blatantly false things about whether there are holes there or not. McDaniels has commented in his press conferences that there are holes there. We saw from the videos that Montrose and Doc Bronc posted yesterday that holes develop early and Maroney drifts and dances and doesn't hit them in good time. If McDaniels own words and video evidence doesn't do it for you, then nothing will. You're content to stick with your opinion, and I'm content to leave it at that.

Wait, how am I cherry picking when I'm taking EVERYTHING he's said into consideration whereas you're only taking out one part to try and benefit yourself and Hillis to the the detriment of the Denver Broncos?

misturanderson
10-05-2010, 02:25 PM
Show me the 6 th one ..........

I don't have video of the games, but I know there was at least one timeout taken inside the red zone against the raiders in game 3 that was a direct result of Hillis being out of position. There may have actually been another timeout taken due to Hillis in one of the first 3 games.

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 02:27 PM
You're cherry picking. I can't make an argument against someone who wants to cherry pick what the coach is and isn't saying, and then says blatantly false things about whether there are holes there or not. McDaniels has commented in his press conferences that there are holes there. We saw from the videos that Montrose and Doc Bronc posted yesterday that holes develop early and Maroney drifts and dances and doesn't hit them in good time. If McDaniels own words and video evidence doesn't do it for you, then nothing will. You're content to stick with your opinion, and I'm content to leave it at that.

Did you even read their comments? How the **** did you come away that their videos proved that the RB's were ****ing up? Did you SEE the RB's getting tackled 2-4 yards behind the LOS?

Are you ****ing serious?

misturanderson
10-05-2010, 02:30 PM
The bolded is not the case at all. We are running a spread option offensive philosophy. The option means that we run or pass depending on what the pre-snap read of the defense is.

How is that not true? I don't really understand how what you just said is contrary to what I said.

I just said it seems to me that the other teams are getting some sort of cue that we are about to run and their safeties and linebackers crash the box as a result. We also don't run the ball all that much, relative to other teams. Which part of that isn't true?

Popps
10-05-2010, 02:31 PM
video evidence doesn't do it for you, .

Hilarious!

Are you out of your mind?

Did you actually watch the videos?

There are MF'ers in our backfield on 3/4ths of the runs.

What videos are you watching, dude?

Taco John
10-05-2010, 02:31 PM
You're trying to cast blame on one or the other: It's either the Running backs, or it's the offensive line. Josh says that this isn't the case, and the video shows as much. It's true that the offensive line is not controlling the line of scrimmage out there, but it's also true that when they do open holes, most of the time our runners have not taken advantage of them.

Bottomline: A better runningback than Maroney - someone who doesn't dance or drift, and instead cuts up field and gets to the hole - would have better results.

Taco John
10-05-2010, 02:35 PM
How is that not true? I don't really understand how what you just said is contrary to what I said.

I just said it seems to me that the other teams are getting some sort of cue that we are about to run and their safeties and linebackers crash the box as a result. We also don't run the ball all that much, relative to other teams. Which part of that isn't true?


Because whether we run or pass is dicatated on the pre-snap read. The defense isn't getting cues about what whether we run or pass based on how the offense looks - the spread option works the other way around: we run or pass based on how the defense looks. If the other team is stacking the box, then Kyle makes that read and doesn't hand the ball off - he options for pass looking for either the positional mismatch, or the uncovered man.

Pony Boy
10-05-2010, 02:38 PM
Bottomline: A better runningback than Maroney - someone who doesn't dance or drift, and instead cuts up field and gets to the hole - would have better results.

And yes that would be Peyton Hillis

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 02:38 PM
You're trying to cast blame on one or the other: It's either the Running backs, or it's the offensive line. Josh says that this isn't the case, and the video shows as much. It's true that the offensive line is not controlling the line of scrimmage out there, but it's also true that when they do open holes, most of the time our runners have not taken advantage of them.

Bottomline: A better runningback than Maroney - someone who doesn't dance or drift, and instead cuts up field and gets to the hole - would have better results.

There you go again ****ing up the logic in advantage of Hillis.

I'm not trying to cast the blame on one or the other, I specifically said:

I'm taking EVERYTHING he's said into consideration

The bottom line is, everyone has to be in sync and everyone isn't.

You're trying to place the blame on the RBs by saying they're not finding the holes. No RB would make this a consistent running game with how our line is blocking and that's where it starts.

Again, how the **** did you watch those videos, read those comments...and come away with the fact that our RB's are not finding the holes?

That is total disrespect to montrose and Broncstein.

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 02:39 PM
Because whether we run or pass is dicatated on the pre-snap read.

Not always.

It's not really common for the Broncos (or Patriots) to check from a passing to a running play.

Kaylore
10-05-2010, 02:42 PM
Not always.

It's not really common for the Broncos (or Patriots) to check from a passing to a running play.

It happens more than you'd think. Most of the time Orton audibles he's checking to a run play.

Taco John
10-05-2010, 02:42 PM
Like I say... If you're not going to take Josh's word when he says holes are there, and if you can't see the holes that are there while Maroney dances and drifts and misses them entirely, then I'm content to let you think what you want.

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 02:42 PM
Bottomline: A better runningback than Maroney - someone who doesn't dance or drift, and instead cuts up field and gets to the hole - would have better results.

Again, you're manipulating words to fit your weak argument.

Is it GETTING to the hole that's a problem or FINDING the hole? From what McDaniels has said it's FINDING the hole... and based off of Hillis' history, and his mental short comings, he wouldn't be able to find a straw of hay in a haystack.

Taco John
10-05-2010, 02:43 PM
Not always.

It's not really common for the Broncos (or Patriots) to check from a passing to a running play.


That's the whole point of the option. That's why it's called the "spread option."

Taco John
10-05-2010, 02:44 PM
Is it GETTING to the hole that's a problem or FINDING the hole? From what McDaniels has said it's FINDING the hole... and based off of Hillis' history, and his mental short comings, he wouldn't be able to find a straw of hay in a haystack.

Josh McDaniels direct quote:

"We have a hole, we have a place to run sometimes, and maybe we didn’t finish a block right, we didn’t make a right read in the running game."

I can't say it any more plainly than that. These are our coaches words, not mine.

misturanderson
10-05-2010, 02:44 PM
Because whether we run or pass is dicatated on the pre-snap read. The defense isn't getting cues about what whether we run or pass based on how the offense looks - the spread option works the other way around: we run or pass based on how the defense looks. If the other team is stacking the box, then Kyle makes that read and doesn't hand the ball off - he options for pass looking for either the positional mismatch, or the uncovered man.

I didn't say that they were getting the cue based on formation, just that they seem to be figuring it out somehow.

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 02:46 PM
It happens more than you'd think. Most of the time Orton audibles he's checking to a run play.

I think he audibles the direction of the running play when you see him audible before a running play.

We like to run it on 1st down and 2nd down if we gain yardage on 1st down.

It's far more often I see Orton audible from a running to a passing play.

From my memory, most of our running plays don't come after Orton audibles. They're usually the called play...

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 02:48 PM
Josh McDaniels direct quote:

"We have a hole, we have a place to run sometimes, and maybe we didn’t finish a block right, we didn’t make a right read in the running game."

I can't say it any more plainly than that. These are our coaches words, not mine.

AKA FINDING THE HOLE. This could mean being patient enough, not trusting where the hole is going to open.. this does't mean

Bottomline: A better runningback than Maroney - someone who doesn't dance or drift, and instead cuts up field and gets to the hole - would have better results.

And that's just 1 thing McDaniels said. He's talked about the running game OVER and OVER again and he's said many more things as I previously posted, as you're conveniently ignoring.

I don't see how you can tell me I'm cherry picking when you're here attempting to portray that the RB accounts for most of the problems in the running game... yet I've said TWICE already that it's EVERYONE which is what the BRONCOS COACH, Josh McDaniels, has stated OVER AND OVER AND OVER.

Kaylore
10-05-2010, 02:49 PM
No, he checks to runs and quite often. He likes to do it especially when we're in three wide because they'll put smaller players on the field. Especially when a team puts their dime on the field Orton will check to a run. He's right more than not too. We scored on one in the Seahawks game.

Taco John
10-05-2010, 02:51 PM
I don't see how you can tell me I'm cherry picking when you're here attempting to portray that the RB accounts for most of the problems in the running game...

I haven't even said that. In fact, I bottom lined it for you and you still manage to get it wrong...

Bottomline: A better runningback than Maroney - someone who doesn't dance or drift, and instead cuts up field and gets to the hole - would have better results.

Spider
10-05-2010, 02:52 PM
I don't have video of the games, but I know there was at least one timeout taken inside the red zone against the raiders in game 3 that was a direct result of Hillis being out of position. There may have actually been another timeout taken due to Hillis in one of the first 3 games.

LOL may have been ? and on the time out wasnt we ahead by 20 ? Dayum good thing you wasnt a Bronco fan when Elway Lined up under the Guard instead of center

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 02:52 PM
No, he checks to runs and quite often. He likes to do it especially when we're in three wide because they'll put smaller players on the field. Especially when a team puts their dime on the field Orton will check to a run. He's right more than not too. We scored on one in the Seahawks game.

That was the called play.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" class="youtube-player" type="text/html" width="873" height="530" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/JEhXCVX7OqM" frameborder="0"></iframe>

Go to 3:40

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 02:54 PM
I haven't even said that. In fact, I bottom lined it for you and you still manage to get it wrong...

Bottomline: A better runningback than Maroney - someone who doesn't dance or drift, and instead cuts up field and gets to the hole - would have better results.

So you haven't even said that the RBs are accounting for the problems in the running game, yet you're bottom line said a better RB (meaning Peyton Hillis) would have better results?

Really?

Taco John
10-05-2010, 02:58 PM
So you haven't even said that the RBs are accounting for the problems in the running game, yet you're bottom line said a better RB (meaning Peyton Hillis) would have better results?

Really?


Yes, I have said that runningbacks are accounting for problems in the running game. That's the point. It's not just the offensive line - it's also the runningbacks who are missing opportunities. This idea didn't materialize on its own. It came from what Josh has said during his press conferences about our running game. He's not blaming things solely on the offensive line. He's taken special efforts to highlight the fact that it's more than just the offensive line, even if on the surface it appears to be solely offensive line problems. Here's his full quote again:

We had opportunities yesterday in the running game that we did not take advantage of, no question about it. That is not aimed at one specific player. I have said it a million times that your ability to run the ball effectively is a combination of a lot of people doing their job the right way. If one person doesn’t (do their job well) — whether that be somebody blocking, somebody is supposed to move up to the linebacker level, some kind of read the running back is supposed to make, the receiver finishing his block on a safety or a corner — there are a lot of little things that add up to a lot of hidden yardage in a game and you come out of a game with whatever number of yards you rushed for. You can always go through the film and say, ‘Wow, this looks pretty good to start,’ and then you finish watching the play and it was a 3-yard gain. So, there’s a good thing about this and a bad thing. The good thing is we really don’t have anybody in our backfield and a good running game always starts with eliminating negative plays, which we seem to be able to do that. We feel like the effectiveness of our running game will improve when we finish the play better — as well as we startedWhen we start the play well, it looks good. We have a hole, we have a place to run sometimes, and maybe we didn’t finish a block right, we didn’t make a right read in the running game. — whatever it may be — and those yards, instead of having a 3-yard gain you get a 21-yard gain and all of sudden your average is four-and-a-half yards a carry. Right now, we are missing those and we’ve got to continue to work and continue to plug away. Like I said, the good thing is we are not going backwards. We had one (negative) carry yesterday. We had very few of those in the first two games also. Once we start finishing plays as well as we start them, I think our running game will be much improved.”

Taco John
10-05-2010, 03:01 PM
Frankly, I'm at a loss to understand why it's such a mindblowing concept that a better runningback than Maroney would have better results.

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 03:02 PM
Yes, I have said that runningbacks are accounting for problems in the running game. That's the point. It's not just the offensive line - it's also the runningbacks who are missing opportunities. This idea didn't materialize on its own. It came from what Josh has said during his press conferences about our running game. He's not blaming things solely on the offensive line. He's taken special efforts to highlight the fact that it's more than just the offensive line, even if on the surface it appears to be solely offensive line problems. Here's his full quote again:

We had opportunities yesterday in the running game that we did not take advantage of, no question about it. That is not aimed at one specific player. I have said it a million times that your ability to run the ball effectively is a combination of a lot of people doing their job the right way. If one person doesn’t (do their job well) — whether that be somebody blocking, somebody is supposed to move up to the linebacker level, some kind of read the running back is supposed to make, the receiver finishing his block on a safety or a corner — there are a lot of little things that add up to a lot of hidden yardage in a game and you come out of a game with whatever number of yards you rushed for. You can always go through the film and say, ‘Wow, this looks pretty good to start,’ and then you finish watching the play and it was a 3-yard gain. So, there’s a good thing about this and a bad thing. The good thing is we really don’t have anybody in our backfield and a good running game always starts with eliminating negative plays, which we seem to be able to do that. We feel like the effectiveness of our running game will improve when we finish the play better — as well as we startedWhen we start the play well, it looks good. We have a hole, we have a place to run sometimes, and maybe we didn’t finish a block right, we didn’t make a right read in the running game. — whatever it may be — and those yards, instead of having a 3-yard gain you get a 21-yard gain and all of sudden your average is four-and-a-half yards a carry. Right now, we are missing those and we’ve got to continue to work and continue to plug away. Like I said, the good thing is we are not going backwards. We had one (negative) carry yesterday. We had very few of those in the first two games also. Once we start finishing plays as well as we start them, I think our running game will be much improved.”

Again, you've still failed to tell me how the hell you came out watching those videos that Montrose and Dr. Bronc posted up, along with their comments, and sit here and say that the RB's very many opportunities on Sunday.

And like I've said, I AGREE that it's not just the oline, it's everyone, as I've said that many times on this page already and yet you're still attempting to say I'm not saying that, and you are now just saying that, when your "bottom line" solely outlines the RB as the issue.

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 03:06 PM
Frankly, I'm at a loss to understand why it's such a mindblowing concept that a better runningback than Maroney would have better results.

No one would have made a huge difference the way the line was blocking Sunday. Not AP, not CJ, not Arian Foster (lmao).

Did you see Chris Johnson on Sunday? That's kind of what happens with no blocking. Out blocking was even WORSE than that.

errand
10-05-2010, 03:22 PM
Moreno, 947 yards over the course of 16 games in one season.
Hillis, 719 yards over the course of 30 games in three seasons.

Broncos 1-1 with Moreno this season....Browns 1-3 with Hillis.

Anyone here think Bob Sanders is a very good safety? I'm curious because he's missed more games than he's played and yet when people talk about safeties in the NFL, he's usually listed in the top 5

Popps
10-05-2010, 03:24 PM
You're trying to cast blame on one or the other: It's either the Running backs, or it's the offensive line. Josh says that this isn't the case, and the video shows as much. It's true that the offensive line is not controlling the line of scrimmage out there, but it's also true that when they do open holes, most of the time our runners have not taken advantage of them.

Bottomline: A better runningback than Maroney - someone who doesn't dance or drift, and instead cuts up field and gets to the hole - would have better results.

Look man, Maroney is a stop-gap, back-up back for us. That's why we brought him in. We WON a game with him at RB. He didn't do anything, but he didn't hurt us, either. His best run of the day was called back on a hold. He did catch a couple of balls.

But, let's not pretend the argument is between Maroney and Hillis. It's not.

Though, apparently Maroney was able to learn the offense and practice adequately, whereas Hillis could not. Hillis also had great problems when he got in the games last year.

The question is... would Hillis make a marked difference in the running game with the current state of horrible run-blocking.

We'll never know the answer, but smart money is no "no."

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 03:24 PM
Broncos 1-1 with Moreno this season....Browns 1-3 with Hillis.

Anyone here think Bob Sanders is a very good safety? I'm curious because he's missed more games than he's played and yet when people talk about safeties in the NFL, he's usually listed in the top 5

He is when he's playing.

errand
10-05-2010, 03:33 PM
Look, no question that our o-line is bad on the rush. Really really bad.

OK, so you admit what we all know...our OL sucks at run blocking so far.

Do you honestly believe Hillis would "consistently" gain 100 yards a game with OUR offensive line?

gunns
10-05-2010, 03:38 PM
No one would have made a huge difference the way the line was blocking Sunday. Not AP, not CJ, not Arian Foster (lmao).

Did you see Chris Johnson on Sunday? That's kind of what happens with no blocking. Out blocking was even WORSE than that.

Yes, it is one of the crappiest lines I've seen and lends to a crappy running game, but those guys you mentioned, I'm positive, could have gotten at least 2-3 yds per carry, and wouldn't be out their dancing at the line of scrimmage pretending like their going to dodge a defender, who the lineman has but can't control through the whole friggin dance. ****

Popps
10-05-2010, 03:40 PM
Hey, Taco...

Here's Hillis' biggest run from the Ravens game. Take a good look, and tell me if you notice anything that looks just slightly different than the videos of our offensive line on Sunday....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ1-Gls5jK8


Gosh. It almost looks like he was never even touched on that run huh?

Weird. How could that be possible, and I wonder if that would help our backs?

errand
10-05-2010, 03:40 PM
...and amazingly people are forgetting that we just won a game where our running game sucked. Here's some positiveness for you guys though...Kyle Orton is on pace to throw for almost 5,700 yards and 24 TD's...LOL

gunns
10-05-2010, 03:43 PM
Gosh. It almost looks like he was never even touched on that run huh?



That's so true, touch Maroney and he's down.

errand
10-05-2010, 03:44 PM
Chris Johnson without running lanes looked pretty pedestrian. amazingly this website has come to the conclusion that if your QB doesn't have time to throw and if your RB doesn't have room to run, you generally lose most football games you play.

Popps
10-05-2010, 03:49 PM
Chris Johnson without running lanes looked pretty pedestrian. .

He's no Peyton Hillis, my friend.

errand
10-05-2010, 03:55 PM
Frankly, I'm at a loss to understand why it's such a mindblowing concept that a better runningback than Maroney would have better results.

Yeah and a better QB would have overcome 9 first half sacks? LOL You can't run without good blocking and you can throw without good blocking.

Granted Maroney isn't anything great...but the bottom line is Hillis wouldn't have fared any better with ****ty run blocking

errand
10-05-2010, 03:55 PM
He's no Peyton Hillis, my friend.

...then again, WHO IS?

errand
10-05-2010, 04:00 PM
He is when he's playing.

Exactly ....which brings me to this nonsense that Moreno is always hurt and that means he sucks. Buckhalter has generally missed some playing time every season as well, but he's also a productive back when he plays. Moreno is the best RB on our roster. He was the best last year too. And it takes an injury to keep him off the field...while it takes an injury for hillis to get on the field.

gunns
10-05-2010, 04:02 PM
Chris Johnson without running lanes looked pretty pedestrian.

Well, if getting over 50 yds and averaging 2.8 ypc is pedestrian then I guess Maroney was at a complete standstill with 5 yds avg 0.45 ypc. Pathetic. And that has nothing to do with Hillis.

Drek
10-05-2010, 04:06 PM
Josh McDaniels direct quote:

"We have a hole, we have a place to run sometimes, and maybe we didn’t finish a block right, we didn’t make a right read in the running game."

I can't say it any more plainly than that. These are our coaches words, not mine.
Don't you understand that this is a clear case of him describing even the holes that opened up were closed by poor continuation of blocks?

He's saying that we opened holes at times and they disappeared for two reasons. Bad blocking (the first one he mentioned) and bad reads (which RBs and OL both make).

So the quote you've selected as your smoking gun "coach said it!" line is in fact almost the complete opposite of what you claim it is.


Bottomline: A better runningback than Maroney - someone who doesn't dance or drift, and instead cuts up field and gets to the hole - would have better results.
Of course, and when a far better back was healthy he kept us from taking negative hits with the occasional respectable run while also providing great pass protection and being a key check down for Orton.

But when he got hurt you said we wouldn't miss his "59 yards per game".

So do you miss his 59 yards per game now Taco? Or are you going to pretend this is a 100% RB issue and that Moreno wasn't doing absurd amounts of work just to give us a positive ground game week to week?

All the johnny come lately Hillis bandwagoners can go **** themselves. I sported a Hillis avatar here (when I don't even use ****ing avatars) for the better part of two years almost from the day he was drafted. I said in '08 that if he was legitimately given a shot to take the starting RB job he'd never get it back. I then said in '09 that if he got over the mental hurdles he'd be Kevin Faulk 2.0 giving us over 1K rushing/receiving year on year for the next half decade. Hell, I'm pretty damn sure I'm the first person on here who described him as Taco's much beloved "5 tool talent" moniker. I'm pretty much completely positive I'm the original Hillis fanboy around this forum.

But you know what Hillis did in his time here? Show a flash and **** the bed. He didn't learn **** all through OTAs and camp last year, was still handed the starting fullback with a larger role than what McDaniels had EVER given a fullback in his offense before along with STs touches. And what does Hillis do? He takes a big, fat, runny **** in the middle of the field for everyone to see a couple weeks in a row.

To top it off he does an interview in the off-season about how he'd like to stick around if his involvement in the offense increased. I mean good ****ing god. The guy didn't look like he understood anything about football other than "take funny shaped ball, run towards painted grassy place" last year and he was doing public statements about wanting more touches.

He punched his own ticket out of town through a lack of production and a lack of either effort or understanding. It happens all the time. You think Jets fans are crying in their beer because Danny Woodhead is going to absolutely destroy them in a few weeks? They lost him in the division for nothing.

How about Ravens fans over their team cutting James Harrison a couple years ago? I don't hear them blubbering on and on about it, and that was done before they returned to playoff contention (i.e. while Billick was still ****ing their team up). He's won a ****ing Defensive Player of the Year award.

****. Gain some perspective you bunch of red assed children.

errand
10-05-2010, 04:10 PM
Well, if getting over 50 yds and averaging 2.8 ypc is pedestrian then I guess Maroney was at a complete standstill with 5 yds avg 0.45 ypc. Pathetic. And that has nothing to do with Hillis.


I agree, which is why this entire thread is stupid. It was posted because some moron is trying to make the point that had we not gotten rid of one Peyton Hillis, we'd miraculously be able to run the ball....which is almost as stupid as someone claiming they know that "when given protrction Brian Griese was the NFL's most efficient QB-bar none"

errand
10-05-2010, 04:15 PM
Of course, and when a far better back was healthy he kept us from taking negative hits with the occasional respectable run while also providing great pass protection and being a key check down for Orton.

But when he got hurt you said we wouldn't miss his "59 yards per game".

So do you miss his 59 yards per game now Taco? Or are you going to pretend this is a 100% RB issue and that Moreno wasn't doing absurd amounts of work just to give us a positive ground game week to week?

LOLLOL....again Taco is a one legged man who decided to enter an ass kicking contest...LOL

good one Drek.

Popps
10-05-2010, 04:16 PM
So do you miss his 59 yards per game now Taco?

Yea, Hillis aside... there's no question we desperately need Moreno back and healthy.

If he's not ready, sit him this week. I'd rather let him heal and take our chances in a game where we're really over-matched than shoving him out there on a ****ed up hammy.

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 04:28 PM
Don't you understand that this is a clear case of him describing even the holes that opened up were closed by poor continuation of blocks?

He's saying that we opened holes at times and they disappeared for two reasons. Bad blocking (the first one he mentioned) and bad reads (which RBs and OL both make).

So the quote you've selected as your smoking gun "coach said it!" line is in fact almost the complete opposite of what you claim it is.


Of course, and when a far better back was healthy he kept us from taking negative hits with the occasional respectable run while also providing great pass protection and being a key check down for Orton.

But when he got hurt you said we wouldn't miss his "59 yards per game".

So do you miss his 59 yards per game now Taco? Or are you going to pretend this is a 100% RB issue and that Moreno wasn't doing absurd amounts of work just to give us a positive ground game week to week?

All the johnny come lately Hillis bandwagoners can go **** themselves. I sported a Hillis avatar here (when I don't even use ****ing avatars) for the better part of two years almost from the day he was drafted. I said in '08 that if he was legitimately given a shot to take the starting RB job he'd never get it back. I then said in '09 that if he got over the mental hurdles he'd be Kevin Faulk 2.0 giving us over 1K rushing/receiving year on year for the next half decade. Hell, I'm pretty damn sure I'm the first person on here who described him as Taco's much beloved "5 tool talent" moniker. I'm pretty much completely positive I'm the original Hillis fanboy around this forum.

But you know what Hillis did in his time here? Show a flash and **** the bed. He didn't learn **** all through OTAs and camp last year, was still handed the starting fullback with a larger role than what McDaniels had EVER given a fullback in his offense before along with STs touches. And what does Hillis do? He takes a big, fat, runny **** in the middle of the field for everyone to see a couple weeks in a row.

To top it off he does an interview in the off-season about how he'd like to stick around if his involvement in the offense increased. I mean good ****ing god. The guy didn't look like he understood anything about football other than "take funny shaped ball, run towards painted grassy place" last year and he was doing public statements about wanting more touches.

He punched his own ticket out of town through a lack of production and a lack of either effort or understanding. It happens all the time. You think Jets fans are crying in their beer because Danny Woodhead is going to absolutely destroy them in a few weeks? They lost him in the division for nothing.

How about Ravens fans over their team cutting James Harrison a couple years ago? I don't hear them blubbering on and on about it, and that was done before they returned to playoff contention (i.e. while Billick was still ****ing their team up). He's won a ****ing Defensive Player of the Year award.

****. Gain some perspective you bunch of red assed children.

http://www.damninteresting.net/content/animated_annie.gif

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/lost_his_head.gif

Spider
10-05-2010, 04:49 PM
Long ass winded post , anyone who thinks what we have now is better then Hillis is a ****ing Idiot ........

Dagmar
10-05-2010, 04:53 PM
Long ass winded post , anyone who thinks what we have now is better then Hillis is a ****ing Idiot ........

Did you read it?

ARE you Glenn Beck??

;)

WolfpackGuy
10-05-2010, 04:55 PM
This Klis guy must read the Mane.

Okay, Hillis is gone, but I think the thing we should be mad about is they got BRADY ***** QUINN in return!

Taco John
10-05-2010, 05:02 PM
For that long winded post, I never said we wouldn't miss Moreno's 59 yards per game. I said we'd have to somehow replace those 59 yards per game.

But still, it's a snarky thing for me to say, so I accept that it denigrates his contribution. But even still, I don't apologize for my disappointment in Moreno, nor the fact that I believe Hillis to be a superior pro runningback to him. Moreno has done nothing yet in a Broncos uniform to dispel this notion. If he had, this Hillis discussion would be peripheral to non-existant.

You can post all the long winded diatribes and high five eachother about destroying me all you want, but what you can't do is point to production.

Sorry. I wish it weren't the case, but it is.

And like I say, regardless of how big our holes are vs. the ones that Hillis gets, the bottomline is that a better runningback than Maroney - someone who doesn't dance or drift, and instead cuts up field and gets to the hole - would have better results. I absolutely believe we'd have been better off keeping Hillis than being stuck in the position to have to trade for Moroney in September. It seems to me that this is fairly obvious by now.

Taco John
10-05-2010, 05:11 PM
I'm pretty much completely positive I'm the original Hillis fanboy around this forum.


Not that it really matters to me... But lots of people loved the Hillis pick. Not sure why you think your support was any more special than anyone else here... (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=1961619#post1961619)

Spider
10-05-2010, 05:14 PM
Did you read it?

ARE you Glenn Beck??

;)

yeah I read it ......

Popps
10-05-2010, 05:20 PM
Not that it really matters to me... But lots of people loved the Hillis pick. Not sure why you think your support was any more special than anyone else here... (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=1961619#post1961619)

Now we're arguing about who loves Hillis the mostest?

Good grief.

Taco John
10-05-2010, 05:23 PM
Now we're arguing about who loves Hillis the mostest?

Good grief.


Apparently we are.

The last guy who did that got rewarded with a gif of a canon taking a guys head off.

But cut him a break. He couldn't argue about production, so what else is he going to argue about?

Popps
10-05-2010, 05:41 PM
Apparently we are.

The last guy who did that got rewarded with a gif of a canon taking a guys head off.

But cut him a break. He couldn't argue about production, so what else is he going to argue about?

I wonder if a cannon could take Hillis' head off?

Doubt it.

Popps
10-05-2010, 05:41 PM
Alll of you losers should spend less time humping your Hillis blow-up dolls and more time making funny pictures for me to laugh at in the Ravens Pep Rally Thread.

Taco John
10-05-2010, 06:15 PM
Alll of you losers should spend less time humping your Hillis blow-up dolls and more time making funny pictures for me to laugh at in the Ravens Pep Rally Thread.

true dat.

baja
10-05-2010, 06:23 PM
Here's the truth about Hillis. He's a hard guy to tackle and runs people over. He also has the hands of Calvin Johnson and has great feet. This makes him a threat in the run and pass.

Unfortunately he is also a poor blocker, both in the run and pass game. On blitz recognition he's pretty terrible and when it comes to the actual technique of blocking someone he's below average. He is a better run blocker, likely from his time spent as a FB, but not a great one (Larsen is better.)

On special teams he shows little to no discipline. They tried playing him as a return man to take advantage of his size, hands and keep from having to cover kicks and punts, which he is terrible at. He was below average here as well.

Probably most of all, Hillis is pretty dumb. He has a real problem remembering the game plan. If you watch Browns games, they never ask him to pass block and run a handful of the same running plays every game to keep it simple for him.

Now some are going to say "why can't we use that here?" Because this offense is too cerebral. First of all, rather than what the Browns do, which is call a play and run that play no matter what, the offense gets two plays at the line before the ball is even snapped. Then Orton and the line make sight adjustments based on what they see and the tendencies studied during the week and formations practiced. This means the entire play is changed, or a few players tweak their routes and protections only slightly, depending on the need. For Hillis this is too much. The guy can't process that information. Further, his problems in the blocking department limits his effectiveness if Orton needed to audible to keep him in to block, this is assuming that Hillis has even the slightest idea of what everyone is doing.

Hillis is a great instincts runner with great hands that can run over people. In a simplified offense, where you limit his responsibilities on third down (the Browns never ask him to block, he just runs a Texas route or isn't on the field at all in third and long situations) and you run the same three or four rushing plays where he can just take the ball and get up field and "do his thang," he can be productive.

Not here. We do too much and require players to be intelligent and versatile. Versatile means more than "ZOMG HE RUNS N CACHES TOOOO!!!!". It means being able to adjust on the fly and have intimate knowledge of the playbook to be able to make several changes.

Is it a drawback of this offense? Yes. Compared to an offense of like Shanahan's, where he'd find the few things a guy can do well and use it, it limits the type of personnel this team will look for. Still, you'll be hard pressed to find a coach that let's a back who can't pass protect start. This is why all three coaches have not given him the starting job at the beginning of the seasons. It is also why he fell in the draft.

So there it is. Does that make more sense to some of you? I know for some, like go_denethor, they will never get over the great white hype. But for most of you, you can see the logic in letting him go.

Accurate and very well said. This post should really end this thread and all Hillis debate.

TotallyScrewed
10-05-2010, 06:29 PM
Not yet I'm not. There's no balance to it. In a spread option, the defense practically dictates what the offense is going to do by how they line up. If run is there, then you run. If pass is there then you pass. At some point in time, teams are going to do everything they can to take away the pass and force us to run the ball. I suspect that what we'll see this week from the Ravens. I just hope when that happens we can.

We will certainly have to be able to run at some point in the season.

Perhaps due to weather conditions or because a team has figured out how to stop the pass or injuries or whatever. It doesn't matter. You have to be able to run the ball effectively.

TotallyScrewed
10-05-2010, 06:40 PM
So then the Cincinnati and Baltimore defenses are pretty dumb too. Since they kept getting burned by the same few, dumbed down plays that Hillis can remember. And worse than that, they get dumber as the game continues, since Hillis had bigger plays at the middle to end of the games.

Does that really make sense?

mhgaffney
10-05-2010, 08:34 PM
Yes Hill is gone.

Only the fan rage remains -- because of a boneheaded decision by McD.

fontaine
10-06-2010, 06:50 AM
I don't mind that Hillis is producing in Cleveland against some pretty stout defenses like the Ravens.

But I do mind that we traded Hillis for a useless player like Quinn and then compounded that mistake by trading a 4th for an apparently smart football player in Maroney (plus a 6th) who can understand this offense but is too stupid to produce any real yardage.

It's ALL about doing what's good for Denver and trading away Hillis for nothing, then trading for a one year RB hire that can't produce is only going to result failure.

I wish we'd stop wasting picks/money on trash from NE that give us nothing like Green, Maroney, Smith etc etc.

I would have rather Josh traded that 4th for an OL in the offseason, that could you know, block instead of pencilling in two rookies along the OL to start.

That was just a retarded mistake. I mean really. You've got three of the finest coaches in the league when it comes to running the football in Denver telling the world that you don't start rookie OL in a complex offense and McDaniels just goes ahead and tries to do it anyway.

That sort of crap is far more annoying than stupidly pining for the impossible because Hillis is gone and NOT coming back.

BroncoInferno
10-06-2010, 06:59 AM
So then the Cincinnati and Baltimore defenses are pretty dumb too. Since they kept getting burned by the same few, dumbed down plays that Hillis can remember. And worse than that, they get dumber as the game continues, since Hillis had bigger plays at the middle to end of the games.

Does that really make sense?

It's not that it can't be effective in some respects; it's that it limits what you can do on offense. There's a trade off either way. McD obviously concluded it wasn't worth accomodating Hillis to dumb down the offense so he could be effective. Maybe the running game would be better (I don't buy that...Hillis would look like garbage behind this OL, too), but then the passing game is probably more ordinary because you have to simply things with Hillis in there. To me, that's where we can have an interesting debate. Should McD be more willing to alter his system to accomodate certain players, or should he identify players who DO fit his system and let those who don't move on to greener pastures? I think McD is doing the right thing. The most successful teams in the league have offensive and defensive systems they believe in and they bring in players who fit roles within that system.

fontaine
10-06-2010, 07:06 AM
Frankly, I'm at a loss to understand why it's such a mindblowing concept that a better runningback than Maroney would have better results.

Take a step back. I'm at a loss to understand why we traded for a known hesitant RB that has a reputation for not hitting the hole quick.

Spider
10-06-2010, 07:06 AM
It's not that it can't be effective in some respects; it's that it limits what you can do on offense. There's a trade off either way. McD obviously concluded it wasn't worth accomodating Hillis to dumb down the offense so he could be effective. Maybe the running game would be better (I don't buy that...Hillis would look like garbage behind this OL, too), but then the passing game is probably more ordinary because you have to simply things with Hillis in there. To me, that's where we can have an interesting debate. Should me McD be more willing to alter his system to accomodate certain players, or should he identify players who DO fit his system and let those who don't move on to greener pastures? I think McD is doing the right thing. The most successful teams in the league have offensive and defensive systems they believe in and they bring in players who fit roles within that system.

well no , you dont make Hillis a feature back , Basically what your saying is the 85 bears had to dumb down their offense to use the Fridge the way that they did , just isnt the case

jhns
10-06-2010, 07:08 AM
Accurate and very well said. This post should really end this thread and all Hillis debate.

A really long post that doesn't have a single fact in it is accurate and worthy of ending the Hillis debate?

LOL

Ridiculous.

fontaine
10-06-2010, 07:18 AM
One last thing.

I understand most sane, balanced posters aren't fixated on Hillis (like me).

But the ONE thing I can't stand is people speculating, and generally talking out of their a$$ just because they've chosen a side and will stick to it no matter what.

Yes, Hillis made too many mental mistakes, couldn't understand the offense, can't pass block and isn't a game breaker.

But please stop lying about his short yardage ability. According to FO, Hillis is the 4th best back in the league when it comes to success rate (This number represents the player's consistency, measured by successful running plays -the definition of success being different based on down and distance- divided by total running plays).

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/rb

So unless you believe Cleveland to be the 4th best run blocking unit in the league (they were 14th last year in short yardage), you have to give credit where credit is due. Hillis can't do a lot of things. But in terms of grinding out the tough yards, he's far better than what we've got.

Let's just move on. I just want our running game to get better.

fontaine
10-06-2010, 07:25 AM
Broncos 1-1 with Moreno this season....Browns 1-3 with Hillis.



Genius, just pure genius.

Measuring RBs by wins and losses.

Somebody go tell Barry Sanders.

Pony Boy
10-06-2010, 07:42 AM
Yes, Hillis made too many mental mistakes, couldn't understand the offense, can't pass block and isn't a game breaker.

Apparently you didn't watch Hillis at Arkansas, he was awesome when he played there. This is what was said about his ability.

OUTLOOK: One of the most versatile offensive weapons on the roster, Arkansas suffered down the stretch in 2006 when Hillis wasn’t available due to a deep thigh bruise. A punishing blocker, a powerful runner and a natural pass catcher, he will most likely be utilized at fullback, H-back, tailback, tight end, wide receiver and punt returner at some point during the upcoming season. If that isn’t enough, he may return to special teams where he was dominant on the kickoff coverage team early in the 2006 season. Rated the No. 1 fullback in the nation by Phil Steele’s College Football, he was also recognized as the best blocking back in the Southeastern Conference by The Birmingham News. He will help clear the way for Arkansas’ stable of tailbacks and will get an opportunity to get his hands on the ball out of a variety of formations. He enters pre-season camp as the Razorbacks’ top fullback and a prime candidate to return punts.

2KBack
10-06-2010, 07:44 AM
Apparently you didn't watch Hillis at Arkansas, he was awesome when he played there. This is what was said about his ability.

OUTLOOK: One of the most versatile offensive weapons on the roster, Arkansas suffered down the stretch in 2006 when Hillis wasn’t available due to a deep thigh bruise. A punishing blocker, a powerful runner and a natural pass catcher, he will most likely be utilized at fullback, H-back, tailback, tight end, wide receiver and punt returner at some point during the upcoming season. If that isn’t enough, he may return to special teams where he was dominant on the kickoff coverage team early in the 2006 season. Rated the No. 1 fullback in the nation by Phil Steele’s College Football, he was also recognized as the best blocking back in the Southeastern Conference by The Birmingham News. He will help clear the way for Arkansas’ stable of tailbacks and will get an opportunity to get his hands on the ball out of a variety of formations. He enters pre-season camp as the Razorbacks’ top fullback and a prime candidate to return punts.

As we all know, what a player is in college is exactly what a player is in the pros.

BroncoInferno
10-06-2010, 07:48 AM
well no , you dont make Hillis a feature back , Basically what your saying is the 85 bears had to dumb down their offense to use the Fridge the way that they did , just isnt the case

Well, if you were willing to keep Hillis around for 3-5 plays a game, then I guess I see your point. But if you do that, you're pretty much telegraphing the play when he comes in. And, as I said, I don't buy that Hillis would be all that effective behind this OL either.

BroncoInferno
10-06-2010, 07:51 AM
A really long post that doesn't have a single fact in it is accurate and worthy of ending the Hillis debate?

LOL

Ridiculous.

It did have facts in it. You would know them to be facts if you knew how to watch football closely and properly analyize what you see. But you've shown time and time again that you don't.

Spider
10-06-2010, 07:56 AM
Well, if you were willing to keep Hillis around for 3-5 plays a game, then I guess I see your point. But if you do that, you're pretty much telegraphing the play when he comes in. And, as I said, I don't buy that Hillis would be all that effective behind this OL either.

3 to 5 plays a game ? we had 15 third downs last week ..... couple of goal to go also ........ or course we telegraph , much like everyone else that carries a 3 rd down specialty back , Chargers and Sproles last year just to name one team , although some call it a change of pace back ..... And you dont have to give it to Hillis every time either .........

Pony Boy
10-06-2010, 08:05 AM
As we all know, what a player is in college is exactly what a player is in the pros.

Talents that a player has in college can be utilized in the pros if recognized by the coaching staff....example the Browns and Hillis.

BroncoInferno
10-06-2010, 08:06 AM
3 to 5 plays a game ? we had 15 third downs last week ..... couple of goal to go also ........ or course we telegraph , much like everyone else that carries a 3 rd down specialty back , Chargers and Sproles last year just to name one team , although some call it a change of pace back ..... And you dont have to give it to Hillis every time either .........

I actually agree that we should have used Hillis as the short yardage/goalline back when he was here. As you said, in those instances the play is pretty much telegraphed anyway. Everyone in the stadium knows it's a run 9 times out of 10. But beyond that, things can get pretty complex with blitz pickups, knowing which route to run depending on the coverage, adjusting to an audible etc...these were the things Hillis struggled with.

BroncoInferno
10-06-2010, 08:08 AM
Talents that a player has in college can be utilized in the pros if recognized by the coaching staff....example the Browns and Hillis.

Yep, they recognized his talents, and also his weaknesses, and as a result dumbed down their offense to accomodate him. Should we have done the same? Is Hillis that great that we should have completely altered our scheme to suit him?

2KBack
10-06-2010, 08:15 AM
Talents that a player has in college can be utilized in the pros if recognized by the coaching staff....example the Browns and Hillis.

there is a level of cost benefit involved in that. Like people have been saying, he can't be used in the base offense, because he couldn't be trusted to run it. He had been a liability on special teams, so he was essentially downgraded to 5 potential plays a game. Basically a waste of a roster spot.

in an offense that is based almost entirely around versatility and flexibility, he was a one trick pony who's one trick was only marginally better than more versatile players already on the team.

fontaine
10-06-2010, 08:17 AM
Yep, they recognized his talents, and also his weaknesses, and as a result dumbed down their offense to accomodate him. Should we have done the same? Is Hillis that great that we should have completely altered our scheme to suit him?

Hell no.

Hillis would have been more effective here just on 3rd and short power formations, like where we failed miserabely running it on 1st/2nd/3rd/4th and goal when everyone knew we were going to run it or just as importantly late in the game when we're ahead and want to burn time off the clock.

I don't mind that Hillis was traded. I just have a problem with trading him for Chris Simms 2.0 and then trading for a 4th for a RB that runs exactly the way he shouldn't behind a struggling OL.

Hindsight is 20/20 but we should have traded Hillis and/or that 4th for an OL in the offseason that could actually run block instead of going to war with two rookies and Daniels who were always going to struggle.

It's that lack of preperation that's on McDaniels. Yes it sucks, but what did you expect with two rookies and a scrub Daniels/Baptiste?

Spider
10-06-2010, 08:23 AM
I actually agree that we should have used Hillis as the short yardage/goalline back when he was here. As you said, in those instances the play is pretty much telegraphed anyway. Everyone in the stadium knows it's a run 9 times out of 10. But beyond that, things can get pretty complex with blitz pickups, knowing which route to run depending on the coverage, adjusting to an audible etc...these were the things Hillis struggled with.

I will agree ....... I never once said use Hillis as a feature back , I dont think his style will allow him a 16 game season as a feature back ........ Just short yardage ........

BroncoInferno
10-06-2010, 08:32 AM
Hell no.

Hillis would have been more effective here just on 3rd and short power formations, like where we failed miserabely running it on 1st/2nd/3rd/4th and goal when everyone knew we were going to run it or just as importantly late in the game when we're ahead and want to burn time off the clock.

I don't mind that Hillis was traded. I just have a problem with trading him for Chris Simms 2.0 and then trading for a 4th for a RB that runs exactly the way he shouldn't behind a struggling OL.

Hindsight is 20/20 but we should have traded Hillis and/or that 4th for an OL in the offseason that could actually run block instead of going to war with two rookies and Daniels who were always going to struggle.

It's that lack of preperation that's on McDaniels. Yes it sucks, but what did you expect with two rookies and a scrub Daniels/Baptiste?

Well, it's easy to say "we should've have traded Hillis for an OL", but 1) what (if any) quality OL were available for trade and 2) would that team have taken Hillis in exchange for that OL (if there were any). Also, you can't blame McD for the injury situation on the OL. He had no way of knowing his three best guys would have varying injuries to deal with. If Clady, Harris and Kuper were all 100%, I think this line would look MUCH better.

go_broncos
10-06-2010, 08:38 AM
Only 6 pages more...you guys can do it..

Mogulseeker
10-06-2010, 08:40 AM
Hmmm isn't obsession a mental condition?

go_broncos
10-06-2010, 09:06 AM
if Mcd doesn't fix the running game, we will be in trouble once winter starts.

BroncoInferno
10-06-2010, 09:14 AM
if Mcd doesn't fix the running game, we will be in trouble once winter starts.

Well, probably. But don't forget that in '08 the Cardinals damn near won the Super Bowl with the 32nd ranked rushing attack in the league.

Rabb
10-06-2010, 09:17 AM
Well, probably. But don't forget that in '08 the Cardinals damn near won the Super Bowl with the 32nd ranked rushing attack in the league.

Or the Colts last year, favored in the Super Bowl and had the 32nd rushing attack

driver
10-06-2010, 09:23 AM
Again, you're manipulating words to fit your weak argument.

Is it GETTING to the hole that's a problem or FINDING the hole? From what McDaniels has said it's FINDING the hole... and based off of Hillis' history, and his mental short comings, he wouldn't be able to find a straw of hay in a haystack.

Here we go again. Hillis is dumb as a box of rocks etc etc etc etc ad nauseum. Enough. You should read your own post and stop chiding others for personal comments, when you do it constantly. calling others morons and using personal invective when your argument is failing.

go_broncos
10-06-2010, 10:20 AM
[QUOTE=BroncoInferno;2961209]Well, probably. But don't forget that in '08 the Cardinals damn near won the Super Bowl with the 32nd ranked rushing attack in the league.[/QUOTE

Arizona weather is good even in winters.
In Denver, most of the time it snows.
I still remember how much Manning used to struggle in Snow.

Missouribronc
10-06-2010, 11:25 AM
Arizona weather is good even in winters.
In Denver, most of the time it snows.
I still remember how much Manning used to struggle in Snow.

Manning struggled in snow because he was playing Pittsburgh and New England...not because he struggled in the snow.

misturanderson
10-06-2010, 11:43 AM
One last thing.

I understand most sane, balanced posters aren't fixated on Hillis (like me).

But the ONE thing I can't stand is people speculating, and generally talking out of their a$$ just because they've chosen a side and will stick to it no matter what.

Yes, Hillis made too many mental mistakes, couldn't understand the offense, can't pass block and isn't a game breaker.

But please stop lying about his short yardage ability. According to FO, Hillis is the 4th best back in the league when it comes to success rate (This number represents the player's consistency, measured by successful running plays -the definition of success being different based on down and distance- divided by total running plays).

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/rb

So unless you believe Cleveland to be the 4th best run blocking unit in the league (they were 14th last year in short yardage), you have to give credit where credit is due. Hillis can't do a lot of things. But in terms of grinding out the tough yards, he's far better than what we've got.

Let's just move on. I just want our running game to get better.

He was very good at it in 2008, and he may be doing well this year (I could give a **** what he's doing for that POS team). In 2009, when he was in this offensive system, he sucked at short yardage just like Moreno and Buckhalter and was actually probably worse than they were. Yes it was in limited opportunities, but he still didn't produce short yardage pickups IN THIS OFFENSE. What he does in other offenses proves nothing about his effectiveness if he were still here.

Beantown Bronco
10-06-2010, 12:09 PM
Like people have been saying, he can't be used in the base offense, because he couldn't be trusted to run it. He had been a liability on special teams, so he was essentially downgraded to 5 potential plays a game.

Aha! So THIS must be where the "five tools" comments came from.....

Steve Sewell
10-06-2010, 12:51 PM
In Denver, most of the time it snows.


You haven't spent a lot of time in Denver, have you Mr. Troll?

Dagmar
10-06-2010, 01:00 PM
You haven't spent a lot of time in Denver, have you Mr. Troll?

I was wondering that myself, we have 300 days of sunshine here. It snows in halloween almost every year, then the snowy months always come from late January - April.

Gort
10-06-2010, 01:09 PM
I was wondering that myself, we have 300 days of sunshine here. It snows in halloween almost every year, then the snowy months always come from late January - April.

ssshhhhh!

pay no attention to Dagmar.

there are only 4 sunny days per year in Colorado.

every other day there is a blizzard. with wind gusting to 50mph. and its cold. and dreary.

all the women are ugly.

all the politicians are crooks.

the taxes are 99.9%

and there are statues of Philip Rivers everywhere. wearing a tutu.

nobody should ever consider moving here. never. ever.

Popps
10-06-2010, 01:28 PM
the taxes are 99.9%
[/B]

Wow, you guys have it easy.

Signed: California Resident.

Meck77
10-06-2010, 01:31 PM
You haven't spent a lot of time in Denver, have you Mr. Troll?

lol...I was thinking the same thing. It's a good thing florida boys think it's cold and snowy in Denver. Keeps the aholes out of our state.

The MVPlaya
10-06-2010, 01:51 PM
Keeps the aholes out of our state.

Obviously that's not working too well.

Rock Chalk
10-06-2010, 02:50 PM
Colorado summers are un-****ing-beatable.

Colorado Spring can kiss my ass though. 3 feet of snow in April? Cool story bro.

go_broncos
10-06-2010, 03:08 PM
lol...I was thinking the same thing. It's a good thing florida boys think it's cold and snowy in Denver. Keeps the aholes out of our state.

yep..tell that to Tim Tebow..he is one of them...:wiggle:

Archer81
10-06-2010, 03:16 PM
Colorado summers are un-****ing-beatable.

Colorado Spring can kiss my ass though. 3 feet of snow in April? Cool story bro.


Colorado summers = epic win.

Colorado spring, fall or winters? = epic fail.

Only placed I have ever lived where you can have a 75 degree day, have a cold front come through when the sun sets and wake up with 2 feet of snow on the ground. And this can happen any time from September to June.

:Broncos:

Archer81
10-06-2010, 03:17 PM
ssshhhhh!

pay no attention to Dagmar.

there are only 4 sunny days per year in Colorado.

every other day there is a blizzard. with wind gusting to 50mph. and its cold. and dreary.

all the women are ugly.

all the politicians are crooks.

the taxes are 99.9%

and there are statues of Philip Rivers everywhere. butt nekkid.

nobody should ever consider moving here. never. ever.


Fixed it.

In fact right now I am brushing the 6 feet of snow off of my St Rivers statue in the front yard. If this statue was a real person his balls would have frozen off by now.

:Broncos:

bronco militia
10-06-2010, 03:32 PM
it's supposed to snow in the fall and winter.

spring, not so much.......springtime has always sucked ass