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View Full Version : My detailed look at the running struggles yesterday - With Video


montrose
10-04-2010, 08:20 PM
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Play 1: Sorry Khan, but Kuper gets beat this play. Daniels also gets driven back off the ball until he joins his teammate tackling Maroney nearly as soon as he takes the handoff.

Play 2: Gronkowski (the H-Back) does a nice job running off his trap man but Daniels gets stood up and Kuper fails to get his head across the defenders body, so those two converge on Maroney. Meanwhile, Clady takes a bad angle and wiffs on the LB comes down to finish the collision with a big hit. It would take a great play, an incredible Barry Sanders/LT like move - but I suppose Maroney could make a cut in the hole and run left.

Play 3: We may need to see more of this from the backs to have a chance to net positive yardage. Maroney takes the toss and begins to head up field but the Titans over pursue on the play and Maroney uses his vision to cutback and reserve field for a nice gain.

Play 4: This one might be on Orton. The safety comes down into the box and isn’t accounted for, Orton might need to check to a different play in this situation. The safety gets a free run at Maroney who tries to make the adjustment and shift left but the penetration is too quick and he’s caught by the shoelaces – although even if he were to break free, David Ball is right there to make the tackle at the LOS.

Play 5: Very good block on the play from Graham, at the top of the screen to seal one edge of the hole. Near the bottom of the screen, Clady does a nice job not letting his man clog the whole. The key to the play is Daniels who pulls and instead of blocking the LB decides to bear hug him. This obviously results in a holding call that brings the play back, but lets continue to watch as if Daniels blocked him legally. Maroney spots the hole well and explodes through. He demonstrates good vision to run off Royal’s hip and then squares his shoulders to deliver a blow to the Titans safety.

Play 6: This one’s on JD Walton. He and Kuper have a combo block on the DT before Kuper comes off the block to engage the LB. Harris does a decent job running his man wide but the DT destroys Walton – after a double team – to snag Maroney in the backfield.

Play 7: Another toss sweep, watch Daniels here. Instead of firing off the ball, he stands up and is pushed backwards by the DL. This forces Walton to stick on the same man, not allowing him to come off early and block the scraping LB. The two Titans then converge on Maroney behind the LOS. In short, the player assigned to be double teamed by Walton and Daniels makes the play – that can’t happen. Furthermore, the back has no chance to make a great move and beat that one defender because another defender is closing in to finish the play since your two OL couldn’t handle 1 DL.

Play 8: Bread and butter run play of McDaniels offense using his base (half) personnel of 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 RB. Out of the shotgun, all of the OL block down while the G pulls to kickout the trap man. Walton does a nice job sealing his man while Harris and Kuper properly doubleteam their man to help open the hole. Problem is, again, the one Titans DT splits Harris and Kuper which also throws off Daniels whose the pulling guard. Graham slips on the play as well preventing Maroney from making a Barry Sanders-like move to spin out and make something out of nothing.

Drek
10-04-2010, 08:28 PM
So in summary:

We couldn't block their guys, even when double teamed, and its rare for Stanley Daniels to not **** up in some way on running downs.

Lev Vyvanse
10-04-2010, 08:29 PM
Private video? Lame.

broncosteven
10-04-2010, 08:31 PM
I can't see the video something about a friend request.

LRtagger
10-04-2010, 08:31 PM
Can't watch the vid.

Chris
10-04-2010, 08:31 PM
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TonyR
10-04-2010, 08:32 PM
But Hillis would have found a way to gain 10 yards on every play.

montrose
10-04-2010, 08:34 PM
Fixed the video.

Br0nc0Buster
10-04-2010, 08:37 PM
not possible, Dr. Broncenstein watched and concluded the oline was great and Stanley Daniels was awesome!

our oline blows at creating lanes, its so bizarre some around here still blame guys like Moreno

It really does seem like the people who blame Moreno and the backs are not actually watching the game and instead just glance at the stat sheet afterwords

LRtagger
10-04-2010, 08:40 PM
Its a testament to Moreno that he can average nearly 3ypc with blocking like that.

lostknight
10-04-2010, 08:41 PM
Thanks Montrose for filming this and putting it up. It really helps the discussion a lot. What about the other three plays that he rushed on? Where they similar **** ups?

mwill07
10-04-2010, 08:42 PM
good stuff.

montrose
10-04-2010, 08:44 PM
Thanks Montrose for filming this and putting it up. It really helps the discussion a lot. What about the other three plays that he rushed on? Where they similar **** ups?

Probably, it was too painful to edit any more of that. Imagine how painful it was to be Maroney!

Deuce
10-04-2010, 08:48 PM
I dont know if it's the design of the play or what, but on those sweep plays it looks like Daniels is just side stepping then because he is so upright and has no forward movement he is just catching the defending and getting put back on his heels even more. He is never in a athletic/powerful position.

TonyR
10-04-2010, 08:48 PM
Imagine how painful it was to be Maroney!

Yup. As I mentioned in another thread, he's no world beater but last season he went 16-123-1 against Tennessee. He didn't suddenly forget how to play. It doesn't take a genius to figure out we have problems beyond the RB's when both he and Buckhalter, two very capable backs, can't do anything.

jutang
10-04-2010, 08:53 PM
Main thing I learned from that video is QB sneaks are our best bet to get past the line of scrimmage.

Tombstone RJ
10-04-2010, 08:53 PM
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Play 2: Gronkowski (the H-Back) does a nice job running off his trap man but Daniels gets stood up and Kuper fails to get his head across the defenders body, so those two converge on Maroney. Meanwhile, Clady takes a bad angle and wiffs on the LB comes down to finish the collision with a big hit. It would take a great play, an incredible Barry Sanders/LT like move - but I suppose Maroney could make a cut in the hole and run left..

Maroney should have slid off to the outside shoulder of 64. there was a whole between 64 and 89 and Maroney picked the wrong one.

There's not alot of space there but it's enough...

montrose
10-04-2010, 08:55 PM
Maroney should have slid off to the outside shoulder of 64. there was a whole between 64 and 89 and Maroney picked the wrong one.

There's not alot of space there but it's enough...

I agree, although he would've had to make a cut in the hole - which is really tough. Nevertheless, it was there - I don't think Maroney is a world beater by any stretch but I have a hard time believing many backs would be remotely productive behind that group right now.

Tombstone RJ
10-04-2010, 08:56 PM
the oline is just big a slow, not a whole lot to say actually, big and slow...

OABB
10-04-2010, 08:56 PM
its all moreno's fault, duh.

NASurfer
10-04-2010, 09:04 PM
Great thread, appreciate the video. Hopefully there will be more of these... :thumbs:

That said, our line is just getting straight up served in every play on that video. Damn hard to succeed under these circumstances.

Lev Vyvanse
10-04-2010, 09:06 PM
good stuff.

Nope. That is bad stuff.

Tombstone RJ
10-04-2010, 09:08 PM
oline play is all about timing and this oline has zero timing, it's slow off the snap and the players aren't finishing blocks...

ghwk
10-04-2010, 09:11 PM
I wish Kupesdad would give his 2 cents worth, not to dog on anyone but he knows football,I think his analysis would be interesting too.

Lev Vyvanse
10-04-2010, 09:12 PM
I agree, although he would've had to make a cut in the hole - which is really tough. Nevertheless, it was there - I don't think Maroney is a world beater by any stretch but I have a hard time believing many backs would be remotely productive behind that group right now.

I think the defender knifing into the backfield and almost taking the handoff, will force runningbacks to make a decision too early.

UberBroncoMan
10-04-2010, 09:13 PM
Stanly Daniels is pretty much gone next year. That or a backup.

WABronco
10-04-2010, 09:14 PM
Good lord. Daniels seems to be getting blown backwards at the snap. Maybe having a street FA as our starting LG isn't such a hot idea.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-04-2010, 09:19 PM
Play 1 Kuper and Harris miss their assignments, and the play is blown up.

Play 2 Everyone but Clady occupies their assignment, and Clady's man makes the tackle.

Play 3 No longer in 11 personnel. Everyone gets a hat on a hat, and Maroney cuts back for a nice gain against 8 in the box.

Play 4 Base 11 personnell. We run right into the teeth of a stacked box and are outmanned. Maroney can't make the unblocked man miss.

Play 5 11 personell against a 7 man front, and low and behold we can run it. Daniels with a dumb and unnecessary hold. Royal even managed a block.

Play 6 Walton and Kuper beaten. We were in 22 personnel with Beadles as the TE over Clady. Anyone actually think we are passing here?

Play 7 Daniels was beaten. No question

Play 8 Graham's assignment blows up the play, cleaned up the the guy who splits the Kuper / Harris double team.


So you have a small fraction of the line play, without perspective regarding the personnel matchups. Review the entire game.

Popps
10-04-2010, 09:27 PM
Great thread, appreciate the video. Hopefully there will be more of these... :thumbs:.

This is phenomenal. Exactly what I was hoping to get when I posted my running-game thread yesterday.

You rock, Montrose!

Tombstone RJ
10-04-2010, 09:29 PM
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/oAtNEgLh0fk?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/oAtNEgLh0fk?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>.

watch 1:57 thru 2:03 and you see every single lineman except 73 a yard behind the line of scrimmage. that's horrid.

mwill07
10-04-2010, 09:36 PM
after watching videos like this and a similar breakdown of Moreno vs Jax (http://www.milehighreport.com/2010/9/22/1704303/under-review-knowshon-moreno-vs), it's really tough to be dogging the RB's - they really have nothing to work with.

Popps
10-04-2010, 09:37 PM
This is exactly what I thought.

2-3 guys in the backfield on every ****ing play, and when there wasn't... well we actually gained a few yards.

http://riverdaughter.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/gomerpyle1.jpg

_Oro_
10-04-2010, 09:39 PM
Thanks Montrose. Awesome vid.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-04-2010, 09:52 PM
I've recorded the entire offensive play on the shortcuts channel. Uploading to youtube and will share it just as soon as I can. You can't take an 8 play sample and expect an unbiased result. You make your own review after that.

Popps
10-04-2010, 10:13 PM
I've recorded the entire offensive play on the shortcuts channel. Uploading to youtube and will share it just as soon as I can. You can't take an 8 play sample and expect an unbiased result. You make your own review after that.

Sweet. Look forward to it!

Dr. Broncenstein
10-04-2010, 10:36 PM
Here is the first half. The second half is processing and I'll try to post it tonight but I have to get up fairly early. Bonus: you get to hear the sound of a remote bouncing off my toe in the dark.

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This was my first impression having re-watched the game and taking mental notes, posted in Popp's earlier thread:

The majority of running plays were from 11 personnel with Royal in the slot and Graham at TE. Even though we were 3 wide, the Titans almost always played with 8 in the box. We were usually out-manned, and Maroney never made the unblocked guy miss. Royal is quite possibly the worst run blocking receiver I've ever seen. There was one play in particular that Finnegan went completely uncontested by Royal to stop an otherwise sufficiently blocked play... and of course Maroney couldn't make him miss. Rarely in this formation was the fault on the offensive line on these plays. Tennessee out-schemed us. We have to stretch the defense vertically if we expect to run from this formation.

When we lined up in 21 personnel, Gronkowski was completely ineffective as a lead blocking FB. Hochstein was occasionally the FB and was equally ineffective, although he was usually in 22 and 23 personnel in short yardage situations.

Tennessee was on the other side of the LOS as soon as the ball was snapped. The silent count with Walton's head-bob might as well have been a starting gun. Their DL got away with lining up in the neutral zone, and consistanly jumped the silent count with impunity.

The running plays that did work were few and far between... and usually called back for a penalty. Daniels had a dumb penalty for holding which was completely unnecessary. He made a nice block after pulling and sealed off Witherspoon, only to throw him down afterwards.

Daniels played pretty well IMO. Walton and Kuper were beaten much more often than Daniels. I counted two runs where Daniels was beaten, and one sack which was questionable at best. The sack came on a missed pickup of a stunting DE... but Orton held the ball way too long and had Buckhalter as a checkdown but didn't get rid of it. Walton arguably should have been the guy to pick him up, but he was distracted to the right.

Beadles played a few snaps. He lined up as a tight end over Clady, and he played RT in place of Harris on the goal-line quarterback sneak. Its interesting to see him subbing for a starting tackle, and not as the LG as everyone demands to see.

Tennessee is dirty. Aside from playing on the other side of the ball, they do a lot of defensive holding. The reason their stunts are so effective is the outside-in guy holds the offensive tackle. Its subtle... you have to see it from the endzone camera to really see it... but it works.

My last thought is that Cortland Finnegan is a punk biatch. Kuper's helmet gets knocked off, and Finnegan took a 10 yard running punch at Kuper's head as soon as he saw it. He should have been ejected. He should be suspended and fined heavily. I didn't really notice it live, but it was about as dirty as it gets.

OABB
10-04-2010, 10:37 PM
a great back should be able to break 7 tackles in the backfield on every play and that turn it upfield for 6. Moreno cant do that.

bust.

Natedogg
10-04-2010, 10:37 PM
great stuff montrose.

its analysis like this that will be the future of internet football sites.

heres to hoping that the mane gets the jump on the rest.

OABB
10-04-2010, 10:43 PM
Here is the first half. The second half is processing and I'll try to post it tonight but I have to get up fairly early. Bonus: you get to hear the sound of a remote bouncing off my toe in the dark.

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/vOQdb_6ddy4?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/vOQdb_6ddy4?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

This was my first impression having re-watched the game and taking mental notes, posted in Popp's earlier thread:

The majority of running plays were from 11 personnel with Royal in the slot and Graham at TE. Even though we were 3 wide, the Titans almost always played with 8 in the box. We were usually out-manned, and Maroney never made the unblocked guy miss. Royal is quite possibly the worst run blocking receiver I've ever seen. There was one play in particular that Finnegan went completely uncontested by Royal to stop an otherwise sufficiently blocked play... and of course Maroney couldn't make him miss. Rarely in this formation was the fault on the offensive line on these plays. Tennessee out-schemed us. We have to stretch the defense vertically if we expect to run from this formation.

When we lined up in 21 personnel, Gronkowski was completely ineffective as a lead blocking FB. Hochstein was occasionally the FB and was equally ineffective, although he was usually in 22 and 23 personnel in short yardage situations.

Tennessee was on the other side of the LOS as soon as the ball was snapped. The silent count with Walton's head-bob might as well have been a starting gun. Their DL got away with lining up in the neutral zone, and consistanly jumped the silent count with impunity.

The running plays that did work were few and far between... and usually called back for a penalty. Daniels had a dumb penalty for holding which was completely unnecessary. He made a nice block after pulling and sealed off Witherspoon, only to throw him down afterwards.

Daniels played pretty well IMO. Walton and Kuper were beaten much more often than Daniels. I counted two runs where Daniels was beaten, and one sack which was questionable at best. The sack came on a missed pickup of a stunting DE... but Orton held the ball way too long and had Buckhalter as a checkdown but didn't get rid of it. Walton arguably should have been the guy to pick him up, but he was distracted to the right.

Beadles played a few snaps. He lined up as a tight end over Clady, and he played RT in place of Harris on the goal-line quarterback sneak. Its interesting to see him subbing for a starting tackle, and not as the LG as everyone demands to see.

Tennessee is dirty. Aside from playing on the other side of the ball, they do a lot of defensive holding. The reason their stunts are so effective is the outside-in guy holds the offensive tackle. Its subtle... you have to see it from the endzone camera to really see it... but it works.

My last thought is that Cortland Finnegan is a punk biatch. Kuper's helmet gets knocked off, and Finnegan took a 10 yard running punch at Kuper's head as soon as he saw it. He should have been ejected. He should be suspended and fined heavily. I didn't really notice it live, but it was about as dirty as it gets.


so....our oline cant block. great thanks.

spdirty
10-04-2010, 10:47 PM
Can anyone do a breakdown of our defense against Chris Johnson? I'd like to be put in a better mood.

ghwk
10-04-2010, 10:51 PM
Wait, we won this game right?

Grover
10-04-2010, 10:52 PM
Good comment about J.D. Walton just above. I noticed that he positioned his head beyond the ball at setup almost all the time. Then repositioned the ball just before the snap. It looked illegal to me, like a false start or perhaps being offsides on almost every single snap. But you could always tell when the ball was being snapped and I know the Titans were keying off this move.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-04-2010, 11:08 PM
so....our oline cant block. great thanks.

You know, a lot of time and effort went into posting the vids. So I guess you are welcome.

OABB
10-04-2010, 11:09 PM
You know, a lot of time and effort went into posting the vids. So I guess you are welcome.

sorry. you have just been douchey lately and I couldn't help it.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-04-2010, 11:12 PM
sorry. you have just been douchey lately and I couldn't help it.

Well since you can't contribute in the form of actual football takes, you at least bring some class to the table.

OABB
10-04-2010, 11:13 PM
Well since you can't contribute in the form of actual football takes, you at least bring some class to the table.

thanks man. that means alot.

also, I have been a huge moreno supporter and have complained about our run blocking since week one. I have taken crap for it too.

Now, people are finally starting to come around about it.

Just because I don't videotape my tv, and make jokes, doesn't mean I don't talk football.

I just don't overcomplicate things.

our line cant run block.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-04-2010, 11:14 PM
Video is still rendering, so it's fuzzy for the time being.

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ghwk
10-04-2010, 11:15 PM
So the key question is is the run game fixable?

OABB
10-04-2010, 11:19 PM
So the key question is is the run game fixable?

It's been said many times, but olines require all five guys to be in sync. It requires the same five guys working together. They just need time. We haven't had that yet. plus we have played three very young players.

give it time, we have talent on the line.

Taco John
10-04-2010, 11:21 PM
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I'm trying to determine the formation of that very first play. Is that a double tight formation with a slot on the left?

Kaylore
10-04-2010, 11:25 PM
The defense was holding on almost every play. Schlereth and Alfrfed Williams were talking about it today. You can see it in several of those clips. Surprised no one has mentioned it. Its a product of the umpire being behind the offensive line.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-04-2010, 11:27 PM
I'm trying to determine the formation of that very first play. Is that a double tight formation with a slot on the left?

No. It was 11 personnel -- Graham, Royal, Gaffney, Lloyd, and Maroney.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-04-2010, 11:30 PM
The defense was holding on almost every play. Schlereth and Alfrfed Williams were talking about it today. You can see it in several of those clips. Surprised no one has mentioned it. Its a product of the umpire being behind the offensive line.



http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2958520&postcount=143

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2958449&postcount=136

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2958969&postcount=31

Harvitz81
10-04-2010, 11:34 PM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2958520&postcount=143

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2958449&postcount=136


Wonder how long it takes for the NFL to realize this is a HUGE problem. If teams like Tenn have figured out already they can get away with this it could become a serious issue league wide. Just put the umpire back at his original position behind the d-line.

So a couple of them get knocked down each year. Big deal, comes with the job.

Taco John
10-04-2010, 11:38 PM
This is awesome stuff Montrose and Doc.

Taco John
10-04-2010, 11:41 PM
Maroney carries the football like its a purse he's trying to show off to his friends.

TheProfessor
10-04-2010, 11:56 PM
No. It was 11 personnel -- Graham, Royal, Gaffney, Lloyd, and Maroney.

Sorry if this is obvious to everyone else, but why is it called "11 personnel"

Dr. Broncenstein
10-05-2010, 12:00 AM
Sorry if this is obvious to everyone else, but why is it called "11 personnel"

Backs / tight ends... there are 6 skill players (QB included) and 5 linemen. 11 means one back, one tight end... and 3 recievers.

TheProfessor
10-05-2010, 12:01 AM
Sorry if this is obvious to everyone else, but why is it called "11 personnel"

nevermind, google is my friend.

http://footballguys.com/10pasquino_11.php

The newest way to describe player groupings on offense is based on a one- or two-digit numerical system. You might wonder what commentators are talking about when they say something like "The Dallas Cowboys are using their 11 Personnel package here" - but it really is not that complicated. The first digit in a personnel package (if there is one) is the number of running backs that are used, while the second is the number of tight ends on the field. Since most teams use five offensive linemen, that means the number of wide receivers on the field in these packages is determined by subtracting the number of tight ends and running backs from the maximum eligible receivers allowed on the field (five). Below is a table of the different personnel packages that teams can use:

Personnel Package RBs TEs WRs
0- 0 0 5
1- 0 1 4
2- 0 2 3
3- 0 3 2
10- 1 0 4
11- 1 1 3
12- 1 2 2
13- 1 3 1
20- 2 0 3
21- 2 1 2
22- 2 2 1
23- 2 3 0

Table 1: Personnel Packages Based on Numerical Names

ZONA
10-05-2010, 12:15 AM
The Titans DL is very agressive and they try to time the snap rather then going on sight of the ball moving. I'm not making excuses because we should have blocked much better in the run game then we did. But note that their DL was offsides or had Nuetral Zone infractions almost every series of the game. We all knew this line was very young, maybe the youngest in the league, and a little banged up. I think they will start to gel much better when they get a bit healthier and get a little more expierence working together.

Hulamau
10-05-2010, 12:25 AM
This is exactly what I thought.

2-3 guys in the backfield on every ****ing play, and when there wasn't... well we actually gained a few yards.

http://riverdaughter.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/gomerpyle1.jpg

If they plan on blocking like that next week they might as well take a page from the Titans 'football book of fair play' and just have each OLineman drop kick each Raven's DL and blitzing LB in the juevos. About the only way we're gonna slow em down it they dont learn how to run block in a hurry!

Although Maroney was far from faultless yesterday, rewatching the whole game today made me want to give him a bit of a flyer on the Titans game.

Next week we need a mean and angry OLine and a focused Moreno and Maroney ready to average 5 yards a carry. We get that from them and the way Orton and the passing game is playing we'll win this one going away!

A repeat of this run debacle and I doubt we get so lucky again being totally one dimensional in Baltimore.

OldschoolFreak
10-05-2010, 12:26 AM
The Titans DL is very agressive and they try to time the snap rather then going on sight of the ball moving. I'm not making excuses because we should have blocked much better in the run game then we did. But note that their DL was offsides or had Nuetral Zone infractions almost every series of the game. We all knew this line was very young, maybe the youngest in the league, and a little banged up. I think they will start to gel much better when they get a bit healthier and get a little more expierence working together.

Agreed, they were offsides on every friggin play, even when it wasn't called. And no, that's not an excuse for the poor showing.

Seems like we should have some sort of misdirection, hard count, or something to exploit an overly aggressive defense like that.

Popps
10-05-2010, 12:34 AM
Maroney carries the football like its a purse he's trying to show off to his friends.

Hilarious!

The MVPlaya
10-05-2010, 12:36 AM
Jake Plummer would have probably drawn 10 offsides penalties with how the dline was playing.

chickennob2
10-05-2010, 12:39 AM
Video is still rendering, so it's fuzzy for the time being.

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The play starting at 3:47! What a cheap little bitch Finngan is! You're absolutely right, that should be a big fine coming his way and he should have been ejected.

Also, thanks for the videos. That must have taken a lot of time/effort. Much appreciated.

Taco John
10-05-2010, 12:46 AM
I don't want to give Maroney a pass at all. There were plenty of runs where he only had one man to beat and couldn't manage to do it. In several of those runs, he could have cut in earlier he'd have found a hole, but instead he drags out and the hole closes before he gets there. His pass blocking looks atrocious as well. Look at 2:05 in Doc's first half video where he helps to TRIPLE team William Hayes, while Tony Brown runs right by him to murder Orton. And all that is without mentioning his hands of stone.

The blocking wan't great, but Maroney looked terrible outside of it. There were some runs where he couldn't have done anything, but there were some opportunities in there that he flat out missed.

Kaylore
10-05-2010, 01:11 AM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2958520&postcount=143

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2958449&postcount=136

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2958969&postcount=31

I meant here in this thread, but that's excellent observation. Its not going to stop so we'll need to overcome it.

Drek
10-05-2010, 04:20 AM
I don't want to give Maroney a pass at all. There were plenty of runs where he only had one man to beat and couldn't manage to do it. In several of those runs, he could have cut in earlier he'd have found a hole, but instead he drags out and the hole closes before he gets there. His pass blocking looks atrocious as well. Look at 2:05 in Doc's first half video where he helps to TRIPLE team William Hayes, while Tony Brown runs right by him to murder Orton. And all that is without mentioning his hands of stone.

The blocking wan't great, but Maroney looked terrible outside of it. There were some runs where he couldn't have done anything, but there were some opportunities in there that he flat out missed.
Maroney is no prize back. He's meant to be the #3 here after all.

It just puts in perspective the criticisms of Moreno. He's been working with this same horrible run blocking and he almost never goes down for a loss. You joked in one thread about missing his 59 yards per game but in reality that was Moreno killing himself to give us something positive in the running game.

As guys get 100% and gel we'll hopefully see better run blocking and along with it better run production. Right now we just need Moreno back because he's the only guy we've got who can make a couple blockers miss in the backfield and gain a few yards when the OL ****s on the field.

Haroldthebarrel
10-05-2010, 05:33 AM
how is Walton doing? I guess since the d-line is jumping the snap count and not get called so many times my hunch is that somebody must be giving them cues.

Great thread!

dbfan21
10-05-2010, 05:53 AM
Probably, it was too painful to edit any more of that. Imagine how painful it was to be Maroney!

seriously. i'm surprised he hasn't chewed them out on the sidelines.

Mogulseeker
10-05-2010, 06:03 AM
Daniels got knocked back every play. We need a new LG.

Lolad
10-05-2010, 06:35 AM
Here is the first half. The second half is processing and I'll try to post it tonight but I have to get up fairly early. Bonus: you get to hear the sound of a remote bouncing off my toe in the dark.

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This was my first impression having re-watched the game and taking mental notes, posted in Popp's earlier thread:

The majority of running plays were from 11 personnel with Royal in the slot and Graham at TE. Even though we were 3 wide, the Titans almost always played with 8 in the box. We were usually out-manned, and Maroney never made the unblocked guy miss. Royal is quite possibly the worst run blocking receiver I've ever seen. There was one play in particular that Finnegan went completely uncontested by Royal to stop an otherwise sufficiently blocked play... and of course Maroney couldn't make him miss. Rarely in this formation was the fault on the offensive line on these plays. Tennessee out-schemed us. We have to stretch the defense vertically if we expect to run from this formation.

When we lined up in 21 personnel, Gronkowski was completely ineffective as a lead blocking FB. Hochstein was occasionally the FB and was equally ineffective, although he was usually in 22 and 23 personnel in short yardage situations.

Tennessee was on the other side of the LOS as soon as the ball was snapped. The silent count with Walton's head-bob might as well have been a starting gun. Their DL got away with lining up in the neutral zone, and consistanly jumped the silent count with impunity.

The running plays that did work were few and far between... and usually called back for a penalty. Daniels had a dumb penalty for holding which was completely unnecessary. He made a nice block after pulling and sealed off Witherspoon, only to throw him down afterwards.

Daniels played pretty well IMO. Walton and Kuper were beaten much more often than Daniels. I counted two runs where Daniels was beaten, and one sack which was questionable at best. The sack came on a missed pickup of a stunting DE... but Orton held the ball way too long and had Buckhalter as a checkdown but didn't get rid of it. Walton arguably should have been the guy to pick him up, but he was distracted to the right.

Beadles played a few snaps. He lined up as a tight end over Clady, and he played RT in place of Harris on the goal-line quarterback sneak. Its interesting to see him subbing for a starting tackle, and not as the LG as everyone demands to see.

Tennessee is dirty. Aside from playing on the other side of the ball, they do a lot of defensive holding. The reason their stunts are so effective is the outside-in guy holds the offensive tackle. Its subtle... you have to see it from the endzone camera to really see it... but it works.

My last thought is that Cortland Finnegan is a punk biatch. Kuper's helmet gets knocked off, and Finnegan took a 10 yard running punch at Kuper's head as soon as he saw it. He should have been ejected. He should be suspended and fined heavily. I didn't really notice it live, but it was about as dirty as it gets.

Daniels has played terrible every single game this season he should not be starting. If you look at the passing plays he is bad. Clady tried to help him a lot and it got him in trouble. Daniels might be the slowest LG on our team he is not fluid at all. He gets pushed back on almost every snap. If isn't getting pushed back he's getting beat off the snap. His guy is usually in the backfield harrasing Orton.

barryr
10-05-2010, 07:30 AM
There's a reason Daniels really hasn't played much until this year and was easy to pick up. He just doesn't appear to be very good. Maybe with more experience that will change, but usually if OL have more troubles, it shows up more in the passing game than the running game.

Steve Sewell
10-05-2010, 07:40 AM
morono is slow..hillis could get 100 yards
I think i'll have another retard sandwich for breakfast

Steve Sewell
10-05-2010, 07:44 AM
Stanly Daniels is pretty much gone next year. That or a backup.

We do have that young chap that we drafted in the 2nd round to play guard, don't we?

Mediator12
10-05-2010, 07:56 AM
Several things to add:

1. Look at the the OL and especially the POA on the run plays. The OL is supposed to hold or push the POA past the Blue line. Just count how many times that happens. It's a lot fewer than the ones they did.

2. DEN has completely failed to establish the POA and the blockers are unable to get the POA open and sealed for any amount of time even when they do not lose the LOS.

3. The OL rarely gets it's down blocks established at the LOS. They are so beaten off the snap, they never get the angle for the power scheme to work.

4. They still look better running a few zone plays versus the Angle/Power Blocking.

5. The penetration from the TEN DL destroys the read step of the RB when he sees the whole blown up. In power running schemes, the RB is supposed to simply run to the POA and adjust to the hole depending on whether the Guard has sealed the defender. There were too many times the RB never even got to "see" the POA as there was a player in his face.

6. There were a few times the RB did have a chance, but not many. Makes me sick to watch.


Overall, the OL was dreadful in that game, simply unacceptable but still DEN got 20+ points on the board. The pass Protection was off, the running game was off, the snap count was affected by the crowd and not changed enough, and the reads of the RB's were poor.

Hard to tell from the video if Walton has a "tell" on his road silent snap count, but it would not surprise me. Young centers make that mistake until they see it and correct it on film. The way TEN lines up on defense is called "credit card alignment". They want the DL lined up with just the thickness of a credit card between them and the nuetral zone. Players work extremely hard on this as it helps them be much more aggresive in their gaps. It looks like they are offside on almost every play, but in fact they are not.

Kudos for pulling out a road win in those conditions with those type of screwups. In the past, they would have folded with that type of performance. That is exactly what I think has CHANGED on this team. They fought through playing poorly on offense, counted on the defense and ST's, and scored just enough points to get a huge road win.

broncogary
10-05-2010, 08:04 AM
We do have that young chap that we drafted in the 2nd round to play guard, don't we?

He's the right tackle. :sunshine:

Old Dude
10-05-2010, 08:37 AM
First, thanks for the quality thread and analysis by everyone concerned. This is interesting stuff.

I won't have a chance to review this, play by play, until later today. But I've got a preliminary question. If the Titans were really playing with eight in the box, play after play, isn't the solution to that to burn them in the air?

And isn't that exactly what happened?

Eldorado
10-05-2010, 08:48 AM
First, thanks for the quality thread and analysis by everyone concerned. This is interesting stuff.

I won't have a chance to review this, play by play, until later today. But I've got a preliminary question. If the Titans were really playing with eight in the box, play after play, isn't the solution to that to burn them in the air?

And isn't that exactly what happened?

Best thread running, for sure.

I think the Doc's point is that you go over the 8 in the box to loosen them up, and we kept running the short routes, which doesn't really force them to move back out of the box. Testament to Orton that he still carved them up.

I kept waiting for the double move on the rookie corner.

Mediator12
10-05-2010, 08:54 AM
Best thread running, for sure.

I think the Doc's point is that you go over the 8 in the box to loosen them up, and we kept running the short routes, which doesn't really force them to move back out of the box. Testament to Orton that he still carved them up.

I kept waiting for the double move on the rookie corner.

The problem with running deeper routes is the protection sucked balls. TEN was able to play 8 in the box because they knew the pass rush would stop the deeper route progressions. Basically, the TEN DL dictated the style of play, rather than DEN's offense.

What makes it great is Orton adjusted in the second half, and took what the defense gave him, which was not very much! They got a road win and fought through a miserable performance to get it! A lot of solid work, no quit, and finished them off.

Lev Vyvanse
10-05-2010, 08:59 AM
The problem with running deeper routes is the protection sucked balls. TEN was able to play 8 in the box because they knew the pass rush would stop the deeper route progressions. Basically, the TEN DL dictated the style of play, rather than DEN's offense.

What makes it great is Orton adjusted in the second half, and took what the defense gave him, which was not very much! They got a road win and fought through a miserable performance to get it! A lot of solid work, no quit, and finished them off.

This is what Orton stated in his press conference. Jabar had been open deep but they didn't have the time to get it to him until the PI call.

Eldorado
10-05-2010, 09:01 AM
The problem with running deeper routes is the protection sucked balls. TEN was able to play 8 in the box because they knew the pass rush would stop the deeper route progressions. Basically, the TEN DL dictated the style of play, rather than DEN's offense.

What makes it great is Orton adjusted in the second half, and took what the defense gave him, which was not very much! They got a road win and fought through a miserable performance to get it! A lot of solid work, no quit, and finished them off.

Great point. Didn't think of that. Agreed, great road win.

Mediator12
10-05-2010, 09:03 AM
This is what Orton stated in his press conference. Jabar had been open deep but they didn't have the time to get it to him until the PI call.

Yeah, I did not hear it, but that is what was easy to see. Case in point, Mike Martz and Jay Cutler on SUN night. They kept trying to get the ball deep, even with max Protect the Giants were killing them.....

Sometimes, you have to change to what the defense gives you. That is what DEN did yesterday. Not what CHI did on Sun Night.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-05-2010, 09:38 AM
This is easily the best thread going right now. Great job with analysis to everyone involved, especially Doc and Montrose.

how long do we think it might take to get this OL working as a unit? And do you guys think we'll see Stanley Daniels doing this same nonsense all year long?

Also: How long til Moreno gets back? Fact is, we need that guy's production, as small as it is, and our screens are MUCH more effective with him than they are with Buck or Maroney.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-05-2010, 09:40 AM
Yeah, I did not hear it, but that is what was easy to see. Case in point, Mike Martz and Jay Cutler on SUN night. They kept trying to get the ball deep, even with max Protect the Giants were killing them.....

Sometimes, you have to change to what the defense gives you. That is what DEN did yesterday. Not what CHI did on Sun Night.

A lot of that is on the shoulders of Jay Cutler. Guy has more than a little Rex Grossman "**** it, I'm going deep" mentality in him. But Martz's "quarterback cannot make audibles at the line" rule is, pardon my french, ****ing retarded.

Lev Vyvanse
10-05-2010, 09:46 AM
This is easily the best thread going right now. Great job with analysis to everyone involved, especially Doc and Montrose.

how long do we think it might take to get this OL working as a unit? And do you guys think we'll see Stanley Daniels doing this same nonsense all year long?

Also: How long til Moreno gets back? Fact is, we need that guy's production, as small as it is, and our screens are MUCH more effective with him than they are with Buck or Maroney.

McD said he is hopeful that Moreno and Goodman will start this week.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-05-2010, 10:08 AM
McD said he is hopeful that Moreno and Goodman will start this week.

/crosses fingers

//prays

jsco70
10-05-2010, 10:34 AM
As many have mentioned, this is a great thread. Thank you to those who have contributed the videos and analysis. These are the types of discussions when I first joined the site. I hope it continues.

missingnumber7
10-05-2010, 11:03 AM
Thanks for the videos guys...takes me back to coaching days.

Taking into effect the DL holding, and there was lots, its what players are taught to do when an OL pulls, we weren't able to effectively block traps and counters. But what really disturbed me was the OL standing, or standing and watching as the RB gets drilled. The one play that stuck out to me was the run by Moroney where the ball came loose. I think there were at least 2 standing watching as players run past them to the tackle. That crap shouldn't happen.

Beantown Bronco
10-05-2010, 03:12 PM
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After watching this video, I finally understand why people bag on Maroney's lack of speed. It looks like he's running in freakin slow motion out there.

Chris
10-05-2010, 04:26 PM
Montrose and Broncenstein I really appreciate it.

PRBronco
10-05-2010, 04:30 PM
Btw did bpc get banned? Or possibly explode? I expected him to be all up in this thread.

Bronco Yoda
10-05-2010, 04:36 PM
The defense was holding on almost every play. Schlereth and Alfrfed Williams were talking about it today. You can see it in several of those clips. Surprised no one has mentioned it. Its a product of the umpire being behind the offensive line.

We already predicted this would happen before the season started. I believe I started a thread on this.

WolfpackGuy
10-05-2010, 04:42 PM
They gotta be tipping the plays or something.

The backside seems to be fairly clear more often than not the way teams are crashing the POA.

Why aren't many cutback plays being called?

Popps
10-05-2010, 04:44 PM
Btw did bpc get banned? Or possibly explode? I expected him to be all up in this thread.

We won this week.

Cutler lost.

Popps
10-05-2010, 05:30 PM
Josh's first comments after the game about the offense...

"... we didn't execute... we were poor at the line of scrimmage.... we lost the line of scrimmage... we allowed penetration into the backfield."

Listen to the press conference. It's the FIRST thing he mentions about the offense.

How anyone can't see this is a problem is beyond me.

gtown
10-05-2010, 05:31 PM
Great work Montrose!! Looks like its a case or rookie mistakes and us knocking off some of the rust. All our vets on the line have been injured at some point recently, and the rooks will be rooks. I take back every curse I threw Maroney's way that game.

DivineLegion
10-05-2010, 05:49 PM
Best thread running, for sure.

I think the Doc's point is that you go over the 8 in the box to loosen them up, and we kept running the short routes, which doesn't really force them to move back out of the box. Testament to Orton that he still carved them up.

I kept waiting for the double move on the rookie corner.

Reminds me of Larry Coyer calling the plays in 05.

Dedhed
10-05-2010, 08:51 PM
This is great stuff fellas. I think we all appreciate the time and effort put in.

I think we should all chip in and buy Doc a tripod though.