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View Full Version : Long-time fans: Is this the worst run-blocking you've ever seen?


Popps
10-03-2010, 02:39 PM
Great win, and this thread isn't meant to take away from it. There was a lot to be excited about today. However...

In over 30 years of watching the team, I haven't seen anything this bad that I can remember.

Clearly, Maroney is no world-beater, but this now makes three backs who can't manage to get to the line of scrimmage without 2-3 defenders hanging all over them.

Something has to change up front. Whoever is truly coordinating these guys has to change some things up, or get some new players in there.

I've just never seen anything like it. We just can't open up a running lane... ever.

Curious to hear from some of the top-flight posters around here as to what may be the issue up front. Until today, the pass protection has been good. So, they're doing some things right. But, we've got to fix this if we want to have any chance of a respectable season.

Que
10-03-2010, 02:41 PM
We run blocked?

The Joker
10-03-2010, 02:43 PM
Was planning to start a similar thread later when things have calmed down from the euphoria of the win.

It's truly amazing how bad the run blocking is, at one point out there Maroney had 7 carries for -4 yards. We were deep into the second half and had one running play where we gained yardage, the rest were stuffs or losses.

Never seen run blocking this bad from ANY team in my time watching the NFL.

WABronco
10-03-2010, 02:44 PM
It literally looks like they're running a Madden FG-block, jail-break run-blitz on every run play. Even when there's 3 man fronts.

WolfpackGuy
10-03-2010, 02:44 PM
The best was when Daniels whiffed AND held the guy who made the tackle BEHIND the LOS.

How do you do that?

peacepipe
10-03-2010, 02:45 PM
We got away with one today, 19 yds rushing isn't going to cut it the rest of the season.

epicSocialism4tw
10-03-2010, 02:45 PM
This is the worst I have seen. I have been an avid Broncos fan since '84.

A bad run game gets you 50 yards a game.

This one...

This one may be worse than that.

Its not just the bad run blocking between the tackles, its the backs as well. I have never seen a back as unaware of the movement on the line as Moroney. Its hard to believe that the Patriots didnt give us a 4th round pick to take him.

Moreno, though nowhere near as bad as Moroney, is also less-than-instinctive about finding holes. Moreno's problem is that he cant get past the second level. Its disappointing for a player who was so explosive in college. He cant juke a safety or LB at this level right now.

Popps
10-03-2010, 02:45 PM
Was planning to start a similar thread later when things have calmed down from the euphoria of the win.
.

People should be euphoric about this win! We beat a tough team on the road today, plaing short-handed. There was more to be positive about than negative, for sure.

It just occurred to me that I may have never seen this team have so much trouble running the ball, and I'm talking all the way back to the early Reeves era.

But, make no mistake... there were a ton of positives out there today.

Bob's your Information Minister
10-03-2010, 02:46 PM
Kyle Orton doesn't care about run blocking. All he needs is his right arm and a bottle of jack.

Br0nc0Buster
10-03-2010, 02:47 PM
not a "long time" fan, but this is the worst run blocking I have ever seen
the way our guys can stand up pass rushers(although not today), but get blown back on run plays doesnt seem to match my current understanding of the laws of physics

I am just confused how one player can hold a guy off on a pass play then said player on a run play will get knocked backwards over and over again

Stanley Daniels is garbage, Beadles should be in there

oh and its all Moreno's fault

spdirty
10-03-2010, 02:48 PM
who do we blame for the run blocking popps?

lostknight
10-03-2010, 02:48 PM
Been a fan since the Reeves day, and yes, this is about the worst rushing efforts I can recall.

A win is a win, but it will be rare and very lonely if we don't fix the rushing game.

Chris
10-03-2010, 02:50 PM
who do we blame for the run blocking popps?

we blame popps

Broncos4tw
10-03-2010, 02:50 PM
By far. McD changed the entire philosophy of the team on the line.. and this is the result. Now.. it MIGHT turn out ok, once we get it ironed out. But you can't go from a small, cutting line, to a bunch of (injured) sacks of meat, and expect it to go too smoothly. I am actually not totally against it... I never liked the idea that we played "dirty" to get our running game going. But hopefully we'll turn it around. I'd rather be called dirty now and then, than have such anemic, pathetic rushing attempts. Just the worst running game I've seen in ages.

Popps
10-03-2010, 02:50 PM
not a "long time" fan, but this is the worst run blocking I have ever seen
the way our guys can stand up pass rushers(although not today), but get blown back on run plays doesnt seem to match my current understanding of the laws of physics

I am just confused how one player can hold a guy off on a pass play then said player on a run play will get knocked backwards over and over again

Stanley Daniels is garbage, Beadles should be in there

oh and its all Moreno's fault


Today made it even more clear that we need Moreno back on the field. Now, I doubt he can run much better without any blocking, but he certainly is an improvement over what was out there today.

Things have to change. Something has to be done up front. It's not just bad, it's confusingly bad. It's hard to even comprehend.

How can we through for 350 a week, and there are still 3 guys in our backfield on every running play?

Get it fixed.

fontaine
10-03-2010, 02:52 PM
Maroney is very hesitant in the backfield.

Our interior doesn't push people off the line.

Schemes don't matter, we ran a ZB play and a defender was in the backfield and nearly decapitated Maroney.

It's down to coaching and consistency along the line even though Kuper and Harris were back.

SonOfLe-loLang
10-03-2010, 02:52 PM
Has to be. Ive never seen so many 4 yard losses in one game

Popps
10-03-2010, 02:53 PM
Maroney is very hesitant in the backfield.
.

But, wouldn't you be hesitant if your running lane had 3 guys in it?

I'd understand if there ever appeared to be any semblance of a lane.

Popps
10-03-2010, 02:54 PM
We probably need more time on this thread.

Curious to see what good analysts like Mediator and SoCal have to say after breaking down the game again.

Br0nc0Buster
10-03-2010, 02:54 PM
I believe at one point in the game Maroney had 7 carries for -4 yards

That should not even be possible if you are using actual NFL players, no way an offensive line should get owned that bad

cabronco
10-03-2010, 02:54 PM
Maybe we should go back to ZBS since this isnt working at all.

WolfpackGuy
10-03-2010, 02:54 PM
It has to be the scheme.

Can you TELEGRAPH running plays because teams are just blowing up everything.

And when the Broncos do get a big (10 yards) play, it's usually because of holding.

spdirty
10-03-2010, 02:54 PM
we blame popps

k.

ShutDownPoster
10-03-2010, 02:54 PM
Put it this way - our D made CJ look like Moreno today. I mean, even Sammy Winder had a higher YPC, right?

strafen
10-03-2010, 02:54 PM
You've been trying hard to sell this "our OL is terrible" to anybody who cares to listen.

We've had two years to fix it. We still have talent all across our OL.
What we don't have is talent at running back.

You've gotta realize that this is Mcdaniels way of doing things.
We have a plethora of WR's who are very good, but Mcd neglected our running game.
We have a running game, we just don't have a running attack...

OABB
10-03-2010, 02:55 PM
Moreno sucks even more when he doesn't play. BUST! an average back would have 13 ypc with This oline.

strafen
10-03-2010, 02:56 PM
Hillis:
<TABLE class=mod-data><THEAD><TR><TH style="TEXT-ALIGN: left" width=125></TH><TH>CAR</TH><TH>YDS</TH><TH>AVG</TH><TH>TD</TH><TH>LG</TH></TR></THEAD><TBODY><TR class=even align=right><TD style="TEXT-ALIGN: left">P. Hillis (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=11461)</TD><TD>27</TD><TD>102</TD><TD>3.8</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>24</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

SonOfLe-loLang
10-03-2010, 02:57 PM
Maybe we should go back to ZBS since this isnt working at all.

There were a few zone runs that were stopped 4 yards behind scrimmage

enjolras
10-03-2010, 02:57 PM
Yes it is.

My first order of business: Daniels needs to be on the damn street. He is truly terrible in both protection AND rush blocking. His side of the line just buckles on every play. I still am optimistic that a line of Clady-Beadles-Walton-Kuper-Harris can be effective. I still just can't imagine a scenario in which Beadles isn't playing next week.

Unless the staff knows something that I just can't see.

enjolras
10-03-2010, 02:58 PM
You've been trying hard to sell this "our OL is terrible" to anybody who cares to listen.

We've had two years to fix it. We still have talent all across our OL.
What we don't have is talent at running back.

You've gotta realize that this is Mcdaniels way of doing things.
We have a plethora of WR's who are very good, but Mcd neglected our running game.
We have a running game, we just don't have a running attack...

Is this is a joke?

gtown
10-03-2010, 02:58 PM
None of this is surprising. We have a first year player playing LG, a rookie center, and up until last week, a rookie at RT. These are growing pains that I am OK with.

epicSocialism4tw
10-03-2010, 02:58 PM
By far. McD changed the entire philosophy of the team on the line.. and this is the result. Now.. it MIGHT turn out ok, once we get it ironed out. But you can't go from a small, cutting line, to a bunch of (injured) sacks of meat, and expect it to go too smoothly. I am actually not totally against it... I never liked the idea that we played "dirty" to get our running game going. But hopefully we'll turn it around. I'd rather be called dirty now and then, than have such anemic, pathetic rushing attempts. Just the worst running game I've seen in ages.

People hated on the Broncos' ZBS running game because it took advantage of the stupidity of the opposing front 7, and was so successful. It was the most successful run game in the league over Shanahan's tenure in Denver. People always hate on the best.

People hate on Manning because he doesnt let the defense rest too.

Inkana7
10-03-2010, 02:58 PM
Hillis:
<TABLE class=mod-data><THEAD><TR><TH style="TEXT-ALIGN: left" width=125></TH><TH>CAR</TH><TH>YDS</TH><TH>AVG</TH><TH>TD</TH><TH>LG</TH></TR></THEAD><TBODY><TR class=even align=right><TD style="TEXT-ALIGN: left">P. Hillis (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=11461)</TD><TD>27</TD><TD>102</TD><TD>3.8</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>24</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Oh man! 3.8ypc!

Popps
10-03-2010, 03:00 PM
None of this is surprising. We have a first year player playing LG, a rookie center, and up until last week, a rookie at RT. These are growing pains that I am OK with.

Yea, I'm hoping that's the case. I guess it just looks so bad, you have to question if it's all the rookie-factor.

But, that certainly has to play in. Walton HAS looked good at times.

Kid A
10-03-2010, 03:02 PM
You've been trying hard to sell this "our OL is terrible" to anybody who cares to listen.

We've had two years to fix it. We still have talent all across our OL.
What we don't have is talent at running back.

You've gotta realize that this is Mcdaniels way of doing things.
We have a plethora of WR's who are very good, but Mcd neglected our running game.
We have a running game, we just don't have a running attack...

Now, nobody can disagree that what we're doing ain't working, but you can hardly say that a guy who invested his very first first round pick on a RB, signed numerous FA RBs for camp, spent half our picks this year on o-line is "neglecting" the run game.

cabronco
10-03-2010, 03:03 PM
You've been trying hard to sell this "our OL is terrible" to anybody who cares to listen.

We've had two years to fix it. We still have talent all across our OL.
What we don't have is talent at running back.

You've gotta realize that this is Mcdaniels way of doing things.
We have a plethora of WR's who are very good, but Mcd neglected our running game.
We have a running game, we just don't have a running attack...

All I know, is I dont see running lanes or cut back lanes, or gaping hole this team used to have. Even watching other teams you see actual lanes open up the lineman create. Maybe its not being healthy and inconsistency with out young O-line, but it seemed Buckhalter was able to find seems more than Maroney, but he's quicker to get there also.

GoBroncos84
10-03-2010, 03:03 PM
It's embarrassing right now. Our run game will improve with Moreno back, what little holes have been opened he will be quicker to than Maroney and he has more ability to make guys miss. But until we stop letting teams get the penetration they are getting we are pretty screwed

gtown
10-03-2010, 03:04 PM
Hillis:
<TABLE class=mod-data><THEAD><TR><TH style="TEXT-ALIGN: left" width=125></TH><TH>CAR</TH><TH>YDS</TH><TH>AVG</TH><TH>TD</TH><TH>LG</TH></TR></THEAD><TBODY><TR class=even align=right><TD style="TEXT-ALIGN: left">P. Hillis (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=11461)</TD><TD>27</TD><TD>102</TD><TD>3.8</TD><TD>1</TD><TD>24</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I agree we could really use Hillis right now, but this guy **** the bed every opportunity he had last year. I would've liked to see some more patience with a guy that has such a unique skill set in the NFL, but none of us are really privy to what goes on behind the scenes in Dove Valley. Whatever the case, we need a hammer. It's a shame Lenwhale had to go down for the year.

NFLBRONCO
10-03-2010, 03:11 PM
Easily the worst.

strafen
10-03-2010, 03:12 PM
Oh man! 3.8ypc!And what are our running backs averaging again?
Sorry, I forgot...
Back to back 100-yard games.
How many did our backs have so far in the last 19 games?

Thought so...

WolfpackGuy
10-03-2010, 03:14 PM
And what are our running backs averaging again?
Sorry, I forgot...
Back to back 100-yard games.
How many did our backs have so far in the last 19 games?

Thought so...

Jebus, 19 games?

It is worse than I thought, and I think it's been pretty effin bad in the run game department.

ColoradoDarin
10-03-2010, 03:18 PM
Yes.

The biggest thing is time, our young OL needs some playing time.

Inkana7
10-03-2010, 03:21 PM
And what are our running backs averaging again?
Sorry, I forgot...
Back to back 100-yard games.
How many did our backs have so far in the last 19 games?

Thought so...

Dude, it's not the backs. It's the line.

Quoydogs
10-03-2010, 03:27 PM
First Go Broncos we won who cares how we get it.

There in bad running and then there is what we did today. I think we were -4 yard until 8 minutes into the 3rd quarter. There is no excuse for this. Somebody a@@ reaming.

dsmoot
10-03-2010, 03:27 PM
I have been a Broncos fan since 72. So Little, Armstrong, etc. I hated watching the running game with Reeves, Winder in 80's. This is the worst I have seen EVER in my time watching the Broncos. Today, you can go up and down the line and everyone of the guys was messing up at one time or the other. Clady looked a little rough today.

Popps
10-03-2010, 03:28 PM
I have been a Broncos fan since 72. So Little, Armstrong, etc. I hated watching the running game with Reeves, Winder in 80's. This is the worst I have seen EVER in my time watching the Broncos. Today, you can go up and down the line and everyone of the guys was messing up at one time or the other. Clady looked a little rough today.

Yea, Clady isn't himself. Clearly.

TonyR
10-03-2010, 03:29 PM
Dude, it's not the backs. It's the line.

Amazing that some people still haven't figured this out.

strafen
10-03-2010, 03:29 PM
Dude, it's not the backs. It's the line.I don't know man, but I didn't see nor have I seen anything in our team that resembles any kind of threat at running the ball, have you?
I don't know, maybe I missed it?

Rohirrim
10-03-2010, 03:30 PM
I think McDaniels has put together a very good Oline. Once they get a season together under their belts I believe they will progress to one of the league's better units. It's always tough going through the growing pains, but Oline is one of those places where cohesion is fundamentally important. With all the ins and outs this line has had, I can't believe some fans are pissed because the unit is not wiping out a very solid Dline like the Titan's. It's just unrealistic expectations.

I'll tell you one thing. This guy has moved to the top of my wish list for the draft next year:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/tfcSvZ5akTc?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tfcSvZ5akTc?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Gort
10-03-2010, 03:30 PM
Today made it even more clear that we need Moreno back on the field. Now, I doubt he can run much better without any blocking, but he certainly is an improvement over what was out there today.

Things have to change. Something has to be done up front. It's not just bad, it's confusingly bad. It's hard to even comprehend.

How can we through for 350 a week, and there are still 3 guys in our backfield on every running play?

Get it fixed.

did it ever occur to you that maybe our running backs all suck and the OL sucks at run blocking and the running playbook sucks? i think all 3 are true.

Endy
10-03-2010, 03:31 PM
I don't know what you guys are complaining about. Orton had a higher YPC today than Chris Johnson. He's a factor back.

dsmoot
10-03-2010, 03:31 PM
I don't know man, but I didn't see nor have I seen anything in our team that resembles any kind of threat at running the ball, have you?
I don't know, maybe I missed it?

I think Chris Johnson would not have 20 yds today if he was on our side.

Taco John
10-03-2010, 03:32 PM
Great win, and this thread isn't meant to take away from it. There was a lot to be excited about today. However...

In over 30 years of watching the team, I haven't seen anything this bad that I can remember.

Clearly, Maroney is no world-beater, but this now makes three backs who can't manage to get to the line of scrimmage without 2-3 defenders hanging all over them.

Something has to change up front. Whoever is truly coordinating these guys has to change some things up, or get some new players in there.

I've just never seen anything like it. We just can't open up a running lane... ever.

Curious to hear from some of the top-flight posters around here as to what may be the issue up front. Until today, the pass protection has been good. So, they're doing some things right. But, we've got to fix this if we want to have any chance of a respectable season.



I'm proud of you for starting this thread.

NYBronco
10-03-2010, 03:33 PM
At this point opposing teams focus on stopping the Bronco running game and seem to neglect Orton and the passing game... and it's tearing them apart.

broncocalijohn
10-03-2010, 03:35 PM
A poll would be nice
Had to be
icing on the cake
likely for the offense but
losing would be on all.
I blame mostly the Offensive line
scheme for this one. Moreno should help.

B-Love
10-03-2010, 03:36 PM
Been a die hard since 1971 and yes the worst Run Blocking I have ever seen. What made it so embarrassing, was the slo mo replays where you could see our Lineman not holding his block long enough, and then openly showing frustration, when his man would make the stop. Hold your ****ing block longer!!

Today they showed it was the lowest Rushing Yardage total since our 1972 game at Oakland. Incredibly we beat the Raiders that day as well as Charlie Johnson had an INCREDIBLE game in his first start as a Broncos QB. We had a 27-6 haltime lead and held on to beat the Raiders 30-23 in Oakland.

Really thrilling win today though!

mhgaffney
10-03-2010, 03:38 PM
Someone please sit McD down and tell him WE WANT A RUN GAME.

If he can't get it done bring in a coach who can.

oubronco
10-03-2010, 03:42 PM
seems like every team running the ZBS is doing pretty damn good

Popps
10-03-2010, 03:45 PM
Been a die hard since 1971 and yes the worst Run Blocking I have ever seen. What made it so embarrassing, was the slo mo replays where you could see our Lineman not holding his block long enough, and then openly showing frustration, when his man would make the stop. Hold your ****ing block longer!!

Today they showed it was the lowest Rushing Yardage total since our 1972 game at Oakland. Incredibly we beat the Raiders that day as well as Charlie Johnson had an INCREDIBLE game in his first start as a Broncos QB. We had a 27-6 haltime lead and held on to beat the Raiders 30-23 in Oakland.

Really thrilling win today though!


I figured you would know. I can't remember anything like this.

Hopefully we can get this thing turned around. The bar has certainly been set low enough at this point that any improvement will be noticeable.

Baltimore next week. Perfect place to make a statement.

strafen
10-03-2010, 03:46 PM
Amazing that some people still haven't figured this out.

Believe me, people know this.
It's a concept well understood, I just don't see how you think it's an OL issue.
Did you see how we've ran the ball all year?
It comes from last year. At what point would a coach recognize that there's a problem?
If Mcdaniels hasn't done anything in his time as a headcoach to address the OL, then, it isn't an issue, is it?
Is that why he keeps bringing RB's more than he's brought any OL to help?

Rohirrim
10-03-2010, 03:51 PM
seems like every team running the ZBS is doing pretty damn good

But of the teams who use it almost exclusively (Redskins, Colts, Raiders, Texans, and the Packers) the two teams with the best chance of getting into the playoffs have Payton Manning and Aaron Rodgers playing QB. The Broncos did great with the ZBS during Shanahan's tenure, but not so great with the playoffs.

I am much happier with the receiver corps McDaniels has put together than I am worried about the lack of running game. When this line gets better the runs will come.

enjolras
10-03-2010, 03:52 PM
Believe me, people know this.
It's a concept well understood, I just don't see how you think it's an OL issue.
Did you see how we've ran the ball all year?
It comes from last year. At what point would a coach recognize that there's a problem?
If Mcdaniels hasn't done anything in his time as a headcoach to address the OL, then, it isn't an issue, is it?
Is that why he keeps bringing RB's more than he's brought any OL to help?

I can't decide if you're trolling or really think that this is obviously not an O-line issue. McDaniels spent three draft picks on the offensive line this year. To say that he's not trying to make it better is just incredibly... stupid (sorry I can't come up with any other word). I mean seriously, what the hell are you even talking about?

When you watch this offense the offensive line is clearly a HUGE issue. They get no push on run attempts. Our backs are typically making contact with the defense behind our line of scrimmage. Good offensive lines give their back at least 2 "free" yards per play by pushing up field. Our line nearly does the opposite.

I really do think it will get better with time, particularly as Beadles gets his chance at guard. Both Hochstein and Daniels remain liabilities. They're just awful.

epicSocialism4tw
10-03-2010, 03:55 PM
did it ever occur to you that maybe our running backs all suck and the OL sucks at run blocking and the running playbook sucks? i think all 3 are true.

There is literally so much suck in the run game that delineating among them and distributing blame proportionate to actual suck is impossible.

somebody divided their suck by pi, and we're left with a vortex of suck that approaches infinity in the negative direction.

TonyR
10-03-2010, 03:56 PM
...I just don't see how you think it's an OL issue.


Maroney somehow ran for 757 yards and 9 TD's last season for NE. Something tells me he was able to do this because he had some blocking.

fontaine
10-03-2010, 04:01 PM
But, wouldn't you be hesitant if your running lane had 3 guys in it?

I'd understand if there ever appeared to be any semblance of a lane.


There are specific plays where the guards or centre pull out and block in a specific direction so the RB has to follow or trail the lead blocker.

Maroney looks very hesitant period even on those plays whereas buckhalter at least hits the crease very hard and quick.

meangene
10-03-2010, 04:03 PM
None of this is surprising. We have a first year player playing LG, a rookie center, and up until last week, a rookie at RT. These are growing pains that I am OK with.

And Clady missed the whole preseason, Harris has been out until today (he sucked btw), Kuper has been out, and McDaniels has been desperately trying to figure out who are our best OL and what is their best postion but injuries have hindered that. I agree the run blocking is horrendous but I also think these have been some extenuating circumstances and am willing to be patient until about mid-season.

fontaine
10-03-2010, 04:04 PM
Also can we please stop calling Walton a good player?

Today he got rag dolled by sub 300 DTs on numerous run plays.

At least Hamilton had trouble against huge DTs, Walton and Baptiste got owned by small DTs in the run game.

At this point I'm just going to chalk it down to inexperience by McD in thinking he could go in with two rookies along the OL as starters. The injuries don't help but there's a reason why it's very rare that experienced coaches will start two rookies along the OL.

Hopefully McD has learned from this and not repeat this mistake next off season.

epicSocialism4tw
10-03-2010, 04:06 PM
And Clady missed the whole preseason, Harris has been out until today (he sucked btw), Kuper has been out, and McDaniels has been desperately trying to figure out who are our best OL and what is their best postion but injuries have hindered that. I agree the run blocking is horrendous but I also think these have been some extenuating circumstances and am willing to be patient until about mid-season.

At some point, McD is going to have to quit experimenting and go with a consistent group so that they can develop some sense of continuity.

Starting Maroney opposed to starting Hall or another back until Maroney could get up to speed with the players around him is a bad idea.

crush17
10-03-2010, 04:06 PM
I'm officially disgusted.

epicSocialism4tw
10-03-2010, 04:07 PM
Where is Wiegmann at these days?

meangene
10-03-2010, 04:10 PM
At some point, McD is going to have to quit experimenting and go with a consistent group so that they can develop some sense of continuity.

Starting Maroney opposed to starting Hall or another back until Maroney could get up to speed with the players around him is a bad idea.

I agree on the OL. If Harris stays healthy, he just needs to leave the current group in there as is and let them develop some chemistry. I noticed several of the sacks today were just blown assignments on blitzes and stunts. It's all about timing and chemistry with the OL. I'm not sure we've had much choice up to now though. I'd like to see Brown get some carries at some point too.

epicSocialism4tw
10-03-2010, 04:15 PM
I agree on the OL. If Harris stays healthy, he just needs to leave the current group in there as is and let them develop some chemistry. I noticed several of the sacks today were just blown assignments on blitzes and stunts. It's all about timing and chemistry with the OL. I'm not sure we've had much choice up to now though. I'd like to see Brown get some carries at some point too.

This deal of starting players and then replacing them the next week isnt good for anybody. I think its a symptom of coaching inexperience. You need to use preseason to shore those spots up and then stick to that plan.

UberBroncoMan
10-03-2010, 04:16 PM
Where is Wiegmann at these days?

Starting in KC again.

To be fair he's too old and we needed a future at Center.

oubronco
10-03-2010, 04:18 PM
But of the teams who use it almost exclusively (Redskins, Colts, Raiders, Texans, and the Packers) the two teams with the best chance of getting into the playoffs have Payton Manning and Aaron Rodgers playing QB. The Broncos did great with the ZBS during Shanahan's tenure, but not so great with the playoffs.

I am much happier with the receiver corps McDaniels has put together than I am worried about the lack of running game. When this line gets better the runs will come.

We can only hope so but using whatever blocking scheme you want the execution has got to be WAY better, this is so pathetic to watch

epicSocialism4tw
10-03-2010, 04:18 PM
Starting in KC again.

To be fair he's too old and we need a future at Center.

Yeah, but you can have a future at center while you have a player who can do what you need him to do on the field.

I never liked the idea of starting a 3rd round draft pick at center who hasnt earned the position over a veteran.

fontaine
10-03-2010, 04:19 PM
It's hard to tell because on a third of the plays at least one defender is in the back field but that solely is on the OL and usually the interior.

I think our backs are far better than what we've seen but until our OL can actually block and get push off the line it won't matter.

oubronco
10-03-2010, 04:19 PM
Also can we please stop calling Walton a good player?

Today he got rag dolled by sub 300 DTs on numerous run plays.

At least Hamilton had trouble against huge DTs, Walton and Baptiste got owned by small DTs in the run game.

At this point I'm just going to chalk it down to inexperience by McD in thinking he could go in with two rookies along the OL as starters. The injuries don't help but there's a reason why it's very rare that experienced coaches will start two rookies along the OL.

Hopefully McD has learned from this and not repeat this mistake next off season.

Who do we have that's better

elsid13
10-03-2010, 04:22 PM
Where is Wiegmann at these days?

Starting Center for KC

elsid13
10-03-2010, 04:23 PM
who do we have that's better

hochstein

fontaine
10-03-2010, 04:23 PM
Who do we have that's better

That's what the offseason is for. Walton was pretty much the starter as soon as he was drafted.

Look this isn't rocket science.

You start a rookie CB, you expect him to get burned.

You start a rookie QB, you expect him to struggle.

You start a new center and have a couple of injuries along the OL then this kind of sh*t happens.

Coaches that have experience with the runnig game can help but our two best guys (Turner/Dennison) left and weren't really replaced by anyone special.

oubronco
10-03-2010, 04:26 PM
That's what the offseason is for. Walton was pretty much the starter as soon as he was drafted.

Look this isn't rocket science.

You start a rookie CB, you expect him to get burned.

You start a rookie QB, you expect him to struggle.

You start a new center and have a couple of injuries along the OL then this kind of sh*t happens.

Everyone biatched about Weigman last year now we have a new center who is a rookie he is going to take some lumps but for goodness sake give the rook some slack it's what his 3rd game

epicSocialism4tw
10-03-2010, 04:27 PM
That's what the offseason is for. Walton was pretty much the starter as soon as he was drafted.

Look this isn't rocket science.

You start a rookie CB, you expect him to get burned.

You start a rookie QB, you expect him to struggle.

You start a new center and have a couple of injuries along the OL then this kind of sh*t happens.

Coaches that have experience with the runnig game can help but our two best guys (Turner/Dennison) left and weren't really replaced by anyone special.

You can really tell the difference. I didnt know that Turner had left and I was wondering why our backs looked so unprepared and seemed indecisive about what they were doing. I know why now.

epicSocialism4tw
10-03-2010, 04:29 PM
Everyone biatched about Weigman last year now we have a new center who is a rookie he is going to take some lumps but for goodness sake give the rook some slack it's what his 3rd game

See, thats the deal.

You dont know what you are getting with a rook. If you have him compete with a veteran and earn his spot, then you both have a measuring stick to evaluate where he is and you have a potential replacement.

Walton may never make it in the league, and that is the reality. You cant just plug him in and expect him to perform.

oubronco
10-03-2010, 04:30 PM
See, thats the deal.

You dont know what you are getting with a rook. If you have him compete with a veteran and earn his spot, then you both have a measuring stick to evaluate where he is and you have a potential replacement.

Walton may never make it in the league, and that is the reality. You cant just plug him in and expect him to perform.

He isn't going to be all world in his 3rd game damn give the guy time

fontaine
10-03-2010, 04:32 PM
Everyone biatched about Weigman last year now we have a new center who is a rookie he is going to take some lumps but for goodness sake give the rook some slack it's what his 3rd game

I'm not blaming Walton, he is what he is. A rookie struggling in the run game but doing a decent job in the passing game.

It's pretty much why everyone from Dennison, to Turner, to Kubiak, to Shanahan rarely ever started a rookie OL unless there were injuries or absolute studs.

epicSocialism4tw
10-03-2010, 04:33 PM
He isn't going to be all world in his 3rd game damn give the guy time

Well, this is a thread about the terrible run game.

You dont expect that he be brought up?

He has played 4 games and hasnt done anything to establish himself as a starting C in the NFL. He has the rest of the season to figure that out, but in the meantime our run game will probably suck. So the coaching staff is essentially throwing away the season to some degree to develop Walton. If that is the case, then why not play Tebow and just cut your lossses?

fontaine
10-03-2010, 04:34 PM
Everyone biatched about Weigman last year now we have a new center who is a rookie he is going to take some lumps but for goodness sake give the rook some slack it's what his 3rd game


Actually that's incorrect.

People who knew what was going on questioned why we were asking Weigmann to run power blocking plays when that was never his strong suit and he was pretty effective in zone blocking plays instead.

oubronco
10-03-2010, 04:36 PM
I'm glad you aren't the coach of the Broncos

colonelbeef
10-03-2010, 04:40 PM
I think McDaniels has put together a very good Oline. Once they get a season together under their belts I believe they will progress to one of the league's better units. It's always tough going through the growing pains, but Oline is one of those places where cohesion is fundamentally important. With all the ins and outs this line has had, I can't believe some fans are pissed because the unit is not wiping out a very solid Dline like the Titan's. It's just unrealistic expectations.

I'll tell you one thing. This guy has moved to the top of my wish list for the draft next year:

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drafting another RB in the 1st round would be a massive failure, especially when you think back to all of the late round successes Shanahan had

Jetmeck
10-03-2010, 04:49 PM
Where is Wiegmann at these days?

One thing McDummy excels at is trading or letting go quality players as well as certain running back coaches I won't name !!!!!!!

Also he very good at calling time outs at end of half leaving the Titans 32 seconds to get a FG.

fontaine
10-03-2010, 04:51 PM
I'm glad you aren't the coach of the Broncos

What does this have to do with anything?

epicSocialism4tw
10-03-2010, 04:58 PM
drafting another RB in the 1st round would be a massive failure, especially when you think back to all of the late round successes Shanahan had

We clearly dont need to draft another 1st round RB. That would be 2 in 3 years.

fontaine
10-03-2010, 05:05 PM
Drafting a RB in the first round would be an absolute terrible decision when we have ZERO young DL that can take over from Williams/Bannan.

We just have to hope our finesse offense can score enough points and Orton can stay healthy getting sacked and knocked around.

Let the Walton/Beadles learn and develop, Harris/Kuper/Moreno get healthy so that we can look for real improvement in the latter half of the season.

Cito Pelon
10-03-2010, 05:42 PM
I don't have a clue.

It seems like the opposing D is keying on something. The opposing D sure seems to have all the running plays sniffed out.

Combine that with an inability of a single OL guy or TE to rub his initial guy out, and whoo boy . . ..

epicSocialism4tw
10-03-2010, 05:45 PM
I don't have a clue.

It seems like the opposing D is keying on something. The opposing D sure seems to have all the running plays sniffed out.

Combine that with an inability of a single OL guy or TE to rub his initial guy out, and whoo boy . . ..

Its as if McD was playing Tecmo Bowl and the opposing coach was watching him select plays before selecting his own. ;D

WolfpackGuy
10-03-2010, 05:46 PM
I don't have a clue.

It seems like the opposing D is keying on something. The opposing D sure seems to have all the running plays sniffed out.

Combine that with an inability of a single OL guy or TE to rub his initial guy out, and whoo boy . . ..

Something is going on.

The defense is THERE WITH AUTHORITY on most running plays.

listopencil
10-03-2010, 05:46 PM
Oh man! 3.8ypc!

3.8 ypc means you are facing third and 2.5, you don't like that? I would take that **** any day of the week and twice on Sundays. I wish we could count on having to convert shorter than 3rd and 3 all the time. That would be ****ing cake.

oubronco
10-03-2010, 05:47 PM
What does this have to do with anything?

Wasn't meant for you

listopencil
10-03-2010, 05:51 PM
I don't have a clue.

It seems like the opposing D is keying on something. The opposing D sure seems to have all the running plays sniffed out.

Combine that with an inability of a single OL guy or TE to rub his initial guy out, and whoo boy . . ..

Well, it was pointed out when McD was hired that the NE running game was kind of a lame ass afterthought to Brady and his receivers. When McD was the OC there. I watched Corey Dillon play just out of his mind in this system, demolishing would be tacklers and making gains on sheer willpower. This is not a running back friendly system unless the D is terrified of the Quarterback.

meangene
10-03-2010, 05:56 PM
This deal of starting players and then replacing them the next week isnt good for anybody. I think its a symptom of coaching inexperience. You need to use preseason to shore those spots up and then stick to that plan.

Problem is we didn't have a healthy OL or RB's in preseason in a time when we were making a major transition in the running game. Don't know if that's not more bad luck than coaching inexperience.

jbiel
10-03-2010, 05:56 PM
We've never had a running game this bad. Anyone else feel more comfortable when we got a penalty on that last touchdown and needed 6 yds instead of 1?

meangene
10-03-2010, 05:59 PM
We've never had a running game this bad. Anyone else feel more comfortable when we got a penalty on that last touchdown and needed 6 yds instead of 1?

Sadly, yes.

barryr
10-03-2010, 06:01 PM
Usually the o-line needs to be together at least for more than a few snaps to have any cohesion in the running game. Timing is key and right now, with guys coming in and out of the lineup, there is none right now. What might is more counter type of runs to keep the defense honest and not able to haul ass at the point of attack.

ColoradoDarin
10-03-2010, 06:04 PM
We've never had a running game this bad. Anyone else feel more comfortable when we got a penalty on that last touchdown and needed 6 yds instead of 1?

Yes, before that I was hoping for (up to) 4 QB sneaks.

Cito Pelon
10-03-2010, 06:06 PM
It has to be the scheme.

Can you TELEGRAPH running plays because teams are just blowing up everything.
And when the Broncos do get a big (10 yards) play, it's usually because of holding.

I'm wondering if there is something that Denver is doing that signals running plays.

Deuce
10-03-2010, 06:08 PM
All the people wanting to go back to zone blocking.... don't we already run zone plays a lot of the time?

elsid13
10-03-2010, 06:10 PM
I'm wondering if there is something that Denver is doing that signals running plays.

More likely Walton is not making the right calls at the line depending on the front he is seeing. Having a rookie center is not the ideal solution when you have a coach with overly complex playbook.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-03-2010, 06:13 PM
Maybe we should divy up a detailed evaluation of each lineman by series. It would take a single poster hours / days to do the entire game.

driver
10-03-2010, 06:19 PM
We used to have a good oline coach named Dennison anybody but me missing him yet?

Bronco Yoda
10-03-2010, 06:23 PM
did it ever occur to you that maybe our running backs all suck and the OL sucks at run blocking and the running playbook sucks? i think all 3 are true.

this

driver
10-03-2010, 06:27 PM
NOOO that distinction has to go to the 76 Bucs. Remember when that dufus reporter asked McKay what he thought about his line's execution, Old McKay "said he was all for it!"

Can't find the crow eating thread, But here goes.
McD finally made a call in the redzone i liked he threw on 1st and goal and we scored, wow he does learn.

broncosteven
10-03-2010, 07:12 PM
Great win, and this thread isn't meant to take away from it. There was a lot to be excited about today. However...

In over 30 years of watching the team, I haven't seen anything this bad that I can remember.

Clearly, Maroney is no world-beater, but this now makes three backs who can't manage to get to the line of scrimmage without 2-3 defenders hanging all over them.

Something has to change up front. Whoever is truly coordinating these guys has to change some things up, or get some new players in there.

I've just never seen anything like it. We just can't open up a running lane... ever.

Curious to hear from some of the top-flight posters around here as to what may be the issue up front. Until today, the pass protection has been good. So, they're doing some things right. But, we've got to fix this if we want to have any chance of a respectable season.

I am proud of our OL and our weak RB corps.

extralife
10-03-2010, 07:15 PM
NOOO that distinction has to go to the 76 Bucs. Remember when that dufus reporter asked McKay what he thought about his line's execution, Old McKay "said he was all for it!"

Can't find the crow eating thread, But here goes.
McD finally made a call in the redzone i liked he threw on 1st and goal and we scored, wow he does learn.

for the record, that is the best football quote of all time.

broncocalijohn
10-03-2010, 09:39 PM
We used to have a good oline coach named Dennison anybody but me missing him yet?

I would take Bobby Turner back. Has the front office tried to see if anything is left in Nalen's tank. He couldnt be this bad and rusty from what we saw the last two weeks.

Gort
10-03-2010, 09:50 PM
At some point, McD is going to have to quit experimenting and go with a consistent group so that they can develop some sense of continuity.

Starting Maroney opposed to starting Hall or another back until Maroney could get up to speed with the players around him is a bad idea.

in today's postgame press conference, McD said he decided to abandon the running game with about 9:30 left in the 4th quarter. that's mind boggling to me. he stuck with this inept running attack for 3 quarters and 5:30 minutes. there's being stubborn... and then there is being stupid. during the offseason, McD said 2009 taught him some things about himself that he wanted to change for 2010. i think stubbornness is one of those things he needed to change. he doesn't seem to be working on that. i know we need a running attack to keep the defenses honest, but we all knew at the end of the 1st quarter that this team could not run the ball against the Titans. it took McD another 2+ quarters to come to the same conclusions that anyone watching the game could see early on. i don't know what the answer is... but forcing the offense to run the ball 20-25 times per game when you are averaging less than a yard a carry is not the way to win football games in this league. you're just wasting plays.

Gort
10-03-2010, 09:55 PM
Something is going on.

The defense is THERE WITH AUTHORITY on most running plays.

correct me if i'm wrong, but maybe it's because McD runs on downs where conventional wisdom says to run, and passes on downs where conventional wisdom says to pass. it's not rocket science to figure out when the Broncos are getting ready to run the ball. we need more misdirection and deception on offense. we really miss the bootlegs. if only Orton could run halfway decently...

Popps
10-03-2010, 10:00 PM
I am proud of our OL and our weak RB corps.

Heeeey... wet-blanket-boy showed up!


At least one of the trolls had the guts to show up today after a win.

Cito Pelon
10-03-2010, 10:14 PM
in today's postgame press conference, McD said he decided to abandon the running game with about 9:30 left in the 4th quarter. that's mind boggling to me. he stuck with this inept running attack for 3 quarters and 5:30 minutes. there's being stubborn... and then there is being stupid. during the offseason, McD said 2009 taught him some things about himself that he wanted to change for 2010. i think stubbornness is one of those things he needed to change. he doesn't seem to be working on that. i know we need a running attack to keep the defenses honest, but we all knew at the end of the 1st quarter that this team could not run the ball against the Titans. it took McD another 2+ quarters to come to the same conclusions that anyone watching the game could see early on. i don't know what the answer is... but forcing the offense to run the ball 20-25 times per game when you are averaging less than a yard a carry is not the way to win football games in this league. you're just wasting plays.

Wrong.

Gort
10-03-2010, 10:21 PM
Wrong.

not wrong. there are other ways to keep a defense off balance. if you can't run the ball the conventional way, then try something different. delayed draws. WR reverses. the goal should be to prevent the defense from dropping 7 into coverage and preventing the D lineman from pinning back their ears and coming full throttle for the QB. you don't need to give the ball to Maroney 7 times for -4 yards to do that. there are other ways. and if the HC can't figure that out, he needs to give back that $2M salary he's earning. it is $6M over 3 years, right?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-03-2010, 10:25 PM
You've been trying hard to sell this "our OL is terrible" to anybody who cares to listen.

We've had two years to fix it. We still have talent all across our OL.
What we don't have is talent at running back.

You've gotta realize that this is Mcdaniels way of doing things.
We have a plethora of WR's who are very good, but Mcd neglected our running game.
We have a running game, we just don't have a running attack...

Two whole years? Might wanna check your math on that.

Also, this was the first game of the season that every starter was available to start the game. That couldn't make any difference though, right strafen? it must just be the way McDaniels "does things."

What a simple-minded dumb ****.

uplink
10-03-2010, 10:36 PM
Drafting a RB in the first round would be an absolute terrible decision when we have ZERO young DL that can take over from Williams/Bannan.

Unless you get a top 10 guy in the draft, the DL players usually take too long to develop and contribute (3 years or so). I wouldn't use draft picks on the DL unless a gem falls into your lap. I'd just sign FAs on the DL.

strafen
10-03-2010, 10:57 PM
All the people wanting to go back to zone blocking.... don't we already run zone plays a lot of the time?Last week against Indy, we did.
They're mixing it up it seems.
I do agree the OL needs time to play together as a unit. Normally they'd start to gel in about 6 weeks if they're all playing evey week...

strafen
10-03-2010, 11:05 PM
Two whole years? Might wanna check your math on that.

Also, this was the first game of the season that every starter was available to start the game. That couldn't make any difference though, right strafen? it must just be the way McDaniels "does things."

What a simple-minded dumb ****.Do you think he'll have it fixed by the end of this year?
That will make two full years.
Does it matter?
He won't get it fixed this year. and that's how it is.
Orton was the leading rusher with 11 yards, I think.
That's pathetic!
This is the second year of the Mcdaniels system. Why is the OL so far behind out of proportion in scale to the rest of the offense, then?

He wanted his PBS and he's not even close to have that ready. It's not working on the running game.
That's a major flaw that can not be overlooked

We need quality running backs who can create their own lanes to run.
We lost two key coaches and it's started to become obvious it was another big mistake by the man in charge.
When you make changes, you hope to be for the best.
After today, I wouldn't be surprised if we are dead last in the whole NFL in rushing, and with pretty anemic numbers to boot.

Rausch 2.0
10-03-2010, 11:05 PM
Run offense.........ouch.

Run defense is definitely improving...

TomServo
10-04-2010, 12:00 AM
cutler haters said last week the packers gave that game to the bears. today the titans did the same thing. dumba ss penaltys to a team that cant run the ball,long pass interference call too? bronco fans will take the W same as the bears. a win is a win.
but if we cant find a way to run the ball its going to bite us in the butt sooner or later.

Popps
10-04-2010, 12:27 AM
cutler haters said last week the packers gave that game to the bears. today the titans did the same thing. .

Bull****.

We had the lead going into that fumbled kickoff, not the other way around.

Tenn made one big mistake, we made one big mistake.

Outside of that, we made big plays when we needed to and they didn't.

Why the need to denigrate the win?

TheProfessor
10-04-2010, 12:34 AM
1st series 1st play-
Maroney looks to be headed off tackle over Harris.
Kuper misses his block and end up facing Orton at one point
Harris tries to cutblock the DE and whiffs
As a direct result Maroney is engulfed 4 yards in the backfield

2nd series 2nd play-
Toss sweep to our left (wide side)
A slow developing play, but playside most everyone gets a hat on a hat. It was Maroney and the corner and Maroney lost. In fairness to him neither Kuper nor Harris did much to slow down the pursuit by the DE or DT. He was going to get crushed within a yard of where he landed no matter what he did.

2nd series 4th play
Looks to be headed right over kuper. Walton loses ground quickly but hangs on enough. Eddie Royal tries to pick up the safety and fails to even get a hand on him. Kuper hits his man at the 2nd level. Hell actually everyone gets their helmet on someone except royal. The safety fills the hole kupe left and Buck runs right into him.

OK, our run game is a mess on every level. Kuper and Harris are obviously still injured, scratch that, everyone is either injured or brand new to the team and that includes the RB’s

With all the injuries and inexperience these guys need more time. I’m not sure if this offense will ever have a dominating run game, but they should be more effective just through more experience.

Unfortunately we are about to play Baltimore…….. and the Jets.

SoCalBronco
10-04-2010, 12:47 AM
Unfortunately we are about to play Baltimore…….. and the Jets.

If we can just get a split from those two, I think we will set ourselves up well for the stretch run. Denver will then have Oakland at home which we should win and then a 49ers team that is self destructing on a neutral field, which we should have an excellent chance to win, then a bye to rest and prepare for the Chiefs at home, which I think we can win, also. I respect what the Chiefs have done so far this year, but I'm not quite convinced that they are for real, yet. They ARE improved, but I don't think they are world beaters and I think at home, Denver should be able to outlast them if we can just get our line in a little bit of order and keep some guys healthy. Really, if Denver can win one of the next two, we have a very realistic chance of winning the next three games after that.

TheProfessor
10-04-2010, 12:53 AM
If we can just get a split from those two, I think we will set ourselves up well for the stretch run. Denver will then have Oakland at home which we should win and then a 49ers team that is self destructing on a neutral field, which we should have an excellent chance to win, then a bye to rest and prepare for the Chiefs at home, which I think we can win, also. I respect what the Chiefs have done so far this year, but I'm not quite convinced that they are for real, yet. They ARE improved, but I don't think they are world beaters and I think at home, Denver should be able to outlast them if we can just get our line in a little bit of order and keep some guys healthy. Really, if Denver can win one of the next two, we have a very realistic chance of winning the next three games after that.

I agree that this season has been so front loaded, that a .500 record would be a very good result. Unfortunately I think we are going to have to wait until after the jets game to see much improvement in the run game.

The problem is, without a run game, I don't know how we can match either the jets or the ravens.

footstepsfrom#27
10-04-2010, 01:02 AM
I started watching the NFL with Super Bowl IV when the Chiefs won it...40 years ago if you can believe that. I know some of the Floyd Little teams had lousy run blocking but I don't recall anything this horrendous. I think some percentage of this problem is solveable with the return to health of guys like Clady and Harris, but how much I'm not sure. We have had two rookies starting and a first year UDFA starter. As bad as he's been I think Maroney will improve and so will Moreno. I want to see what Andre Brown has, but none of these guys will look any good till they can open holes up front. On a postive note, imagine how this offense will look once they CAN run the ball.

Cito Pelon
10-04-2010, 01:06 AM
not wrong. there are other ways to keep a defense off balance. if you can't run the ball the conventional way, then try something different. delayed draws. WR reverses. the goal should be to prevent the defense from dropping 7 into coverage and preventing the D lineman from pinning back their ears and coming full throttle for the QB. you don't need to give the ball to Maroney 7 times for -4 yards to do that. there are other ways. and if the HC can't figure that out, he needs to give back that $2M salary he's earning. it is $6M over 3 years, right?

I can see your point. Not much creativity.

cutthemdown
10-04-2010, 01:19 AM
Broncos should look for a super stud middle linebacker IMO. A captian of the middle. Someone big, mean and nasty.

colonelbeef
10-04-2010, 01:37 AM
So in this thread you admit that the running game is an atrocity, yet in another thread you are saying how "excellent a job" McDaniels is doing as HC.

Really Popps?

kappys
10-04-2010, 02:57 AM
Broncos should look for a super stud middle linebacker IMO. A captian of the middle. Someone big, mean and nasty.

That would be a big piece to add to this D. A stud MLB to pair up next to DJ would allow for a lot more creativity on blitz schemes - especially if we get the kind of guy who can cover effectively. Combined with Doom returning, Ayers improvement, and the strong coverage ability of our secondary I think we could see a very effective pass rush even without major upgrades on the D-line.

Spider
10-04-2010, 03:12 AM
worst run blocking ? not even close ..1973 , 1983 , 1985 , 1987

Dr. Broncenstein
10-04-2010, 04:28 AM
Great win, and this thread isn't meant to take away from it. There was a lot to be excited about today. However...

In over 30 years of watching the team, I haven't seen anything this bad that I can remember.

Clearly, Maroney is no world-beater, but this now makes three backs who can't manage to get to the line of scrimmage without 2-3 defenders hanging all over them.

Something has to change up front. Whoever is truly coordinating these guys has to change some things up, or get some new players in there.

I've just never seen anything like it. We just can't open up a running lane... ever.

Curious to hear from some of the top-flight posters around here as to what may be the issue up front. Until today, the pass protection has been good. So, they're doing some things right. But, we've got to fix this if we want to have any chance of a respectable season.

So I went and rewatched the game specifically on the offensive line, taking time to watch each player. Here are my thoughts:

The majority of running plays were from 11 personnel with Royal in the slot and Graham at TE. Even though we were 3 wide, the Titans almost always played with 8 in the box. We were usually out-manned, and Maroney never made the unblocked guy miss. Royal is quite possibly the worst run blocking receiver I've ever seen. There was one play in particular that Finnegan went completely uncontested by Royal to stop an otherwise sufficiently blocked play... and of course Maroney couldn't make him miss. Rarely in this formation was the fault on the offensive line on these plays. Tennessee out-schemed us. We have to stretch the defense vertically if we expect to run from this formation.

When we lined up in 21 personnel, Gronkowski was completely ineffective as a lead blocking FB. Hochstein was occasionally the FB and was equally ineffective, although he was usually in 22 and 23 personnel in short yardage situations.

Tennessee was on the other side of the LOS as soon as the ball was snapped. The silent count with Walton's head-bob might as well have been a starting gun. Their DL got away with lining up in the neutral zone, and consistanly jumped the silent count with impunity.

The running plays that did work were few and far between... and usually called back for a penalty. Daniels had a dumb penalty for holding which was completely unnecessary. He made a nice block after pulling and sealed off Witherspoon, only to throw him down afterwards.

Daniels played pretty well IMO. Walton and Kuper were beaten much more often than Daniels. I counted two runs where Daniels was beaten, and one sack which was questionable at best. The sack came on a missed pickup of a stunting DE... but Orton held the ball way too long and had Buckhalter as a checkdown but didn't get rid of it. Walton arguably should have been the guy to pick him up, but he was distracted to the right.

Beadles played a few snaps. He lined up as a tight end over Clady, and he played RT in place of Harris on the goal-line quarterback sneak. Its interesting to see him subbing for a starting tackle, and not as the LG as everyone demands to see.

Tennessee is dirty. Aside from playing on the other side of the ball, they do a lot of defensive holding. The reason their stunts are so effective is the outside-in guy holds the offensive tackle. Its subtle... you have to see it from the endzone camera to really see it... but it works.

My last thought is that Cortland Finnegan is a punk biatch. Kuper's helmet gets knocked off, and Finnegan took a 10 yard running punch at Kuper's head as soon as he saw it. He should have been ejected. He should be suspended and fined heavily. I didn't really notice it live, but it was about as dirty as it gets.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-04-2010, 04:33 AM
I can't decide if you're trolling or really think that this is obviously not an O-line issue. McDaniels spent three draft picks on the offensive line this year. To say that he's not trying to make it better is just incredibly... stupid (sorry I can't come up with any other word). I mean seriously, what the hell are you even talking about?

When you watch this offense the offensive line is clearly a HUGE issue. They get no push on run attempts. Our backs are typically making contact with the defense behind our line of scrimmage. Good offensive lines give their back at least 2 "free" yards per play by pushing up field. Our line nearly does the opposite.

I really do think it will get better with time, particularly as Beadles gets his chance at guard. Both Hochstein and Daniels remain liabilities. They're just awful.

Daniels wasn't the problem yesterday.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-04-2010, 04:39 AM
I'm wondering if there is something that Denver is doing that signals running plays.

They are trying to run out of 3 wide sets. When they aren't running from this personnel group, they are throwing short. The defense plays 8-9 in the box with Royal trying to block and Maroney trying to make the unblocked guy(s) miss.

Garcia Bronco
10-04-2010, 07:17 AM
This is consistently the worst run blocking I have ever seen.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-04-2010, 07:34 AM
We spent all day trying to run out of a passing formation, or a jumbo set with no passing threat. I think I counted one play in the first half where we lined up in 21 personnel... and ran it for 8 yards. When you line up with Beadles as your second tight end, its probably staying on the ground. When you line up with Royal in the slot, it's either a short pass or a run. I'm no professional football coach, but that doesn't seem like it requires a sophisticated plan to counter. Put 8-9 in the box, and play on the other side of the LOS. The only reason we moved the ball is because Orton was quick and on the money.

TonyR
10-04-2010, 07:39 AM
...if the HC can't figure that out, he needs to give back that $2M salary he's earning.

He doesn't earn any money for coaching a banged up team that beat a very good Titans team on the road? While you're busy blaming him for the running game, which is fair, you also need to credit him for the passing game and improved defense. Right?

Gort
10-04-2010, 07:42 AM
He doesn't earn any money for coaching a banged up team that beat a very good Titans team on the road? While you're busy blaming him for the running game, which is fair, you also need to credit him for the passing game and improved defense. Right?

McD's report card is a mixed bag. some good things. some bad things. some things the jury is still out on. but he's got to get this running game problem fixed! going all the way back to game #7 of last year... the Broncos offense has had to rely on the passing game because the running game is not getting it done.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-04-2010, 07:56 AM
I want to draw attention to a specific play when I talk about holding by the Tennessee defensive line, and the subsequent sack they get because of it. 3rd quarter @ 9:27, 3rd and 5:

95 is the LDE, 91 is the LDT. They stunt and 95 goes inside, grabs Harris, and pulls him inside. Harris is held down low and its difficult to see until you see the replay from the endzone view. 91 gets a clean release on the inside out stunt because Harris is held temporarily. Orton is eventually sacked by whoever Clady was blocking, but he was flushed by 91. The Titans did this all game long when they stunted.

I don't know if Tennesse did this before the umpire position change. It seems like it would be easier to get away with it with the umpire lined up in the new position.

TheProfessor
10-04-2010, 08:14 AM
Royal is quite possibly the worst run blocking receiver I've ever seen. There was one play in particular that Finnegan went completely uncontested by Royal to stop an otherwise sufficiently blocked play...

2nd series 4th play
Looks to be headed right over kuper. Walton loses ground quickly but hangs on enough. Eddie Royal tries to pick up the safety and fails to even get a hand on him. Kuper hits his man at the 2nd level. Hell actually everyone gets their helmet on someone except royal. The safety fills the hole kupe left and Buck runs right into him.


Just to back up what the Doc said- Royals effort in the run game is pretty pathetic sometimes.

Old Dude
10-04-2010, 08:22 AM
First, another weird little stat.

After 4 games, Denver ranks last (32d) in rushing.

In average yards per game, the 29th, 30th and 31st ranked teams are Indianapolis, Chicago and New Orleans. (Last year's super bowl teams and the 3-1 Bears.)

As for bad run blocking ... yes I have seen worse, but you have to go back to Floyd Little's Day ... which gives you guys an idea of just what the dude was up against.

That said, the O-Line is very young and inexperienced. Both tackles are coming off injuries. The five of them have spent very little time together as a unit and the cohesion isn't there yet. Things will improve. (No place to go but up anyway.)

Dedhed
10-04-2010, 08:32 AM
Maybe we should go back to ZBS since this isnt working at all.

We ran ZBS all last week, and it was equally as bad. regardless of the scheme right now, there's no coordination along the line when running zone, and guys are getting owned in the man blocking scheme.

Rohirrim
10-04-2010, 08:37 AM
Judging by the outcome yesterday, the Broncos running game will soon improve dramatically when D coordinators realize that you can stop the Broncos from running and still lose the game.

TheReverend
10-04-2010, 08:38 AM
So I went and rewatched the game specifically on the offensive line, taking time to watch each player. Here are my thoughts:

The majority of running plays were from 11 personnel with Royal in the slot and Graham at TE. Even though we were 3 wide, the Titans almost always played with 8 in the box. We were usually out-manned, and Maroney never made the unblocked guy miss. Royal is quite possibly the worst run blocking receiver I've ever seen. There was one play in particular that Finnegan went completely uncontested by Royal to stop an otherwise sufficiently blocked play... and of course Maroney couldn't make him miss. Rarely in this formation was the fault on the offensive line on these plays. Tennessee out-schemed us. We have to stretch the defense vertically if we expect to run from this formation.

When we lined up in 21 personnel, Gronkowski was completely ineffective as a lead blocking FB. Hochstein was occasionally the FB and was equally ineffective, although he was usually in 22 and 23 personnel in short yardage situations.

Tennessee was on the other side of the LOS as soon as the ball was snapped. The silent count with Walton's head-bob might as well have been a starting gun. Their DL got away with lining up in the neutral zone, and consistanly jumped the silent count with impunity.

The running plays that did work were few and far between... and usually called back for a penalty. Daniels had a dumb penalty for holding which was completely unnecessary. He made a nice block after pulling and sealed off Witherspoon, only to throw him down afterwards.

Daniels played pretty well IMO. Walton and Kuper were beaten much more often than Daniels. I counted two runs where Daniels was beaten, and one sack which was questionable at best. The sack came on a missed pickup of a stunting DE... but Orton held the ball way too long and had Buckhalter as a checkdown but didn't get rid of it. Walton arguably should have been the guy to pick him up, but he was distracted to the right.

Beadles played a few snaps. He lined up as a tight end over Clady, and he played RT in place of Harris on the goal-line quarterback sneak. Its interesting to see him subbing for a starting tackle, and not as the LG as everyone demands to see.

Tennessee is dirty. Aside from playing on the other side of the ball, they do a lot of defensive holding. The reason their stunts are so effective is the outside-in guy holds the offensive tackle. Its subtle... you have to see it from the endzone camera to really see it... but it works.

My last thought is that Cortland Finnegan is a punk biatch. Kuper's helmet gets knocked off, and Finnegan took a 10 yard running punch at Kuper's head as soon as he saw it. He should have been ejected. He should be suspended and fined heavily. I didn't really notice it live, but it was about as dirty as it gets.

Excellent post, repped.

Point blank: We need a "smarter" running game. We don't have the talent to telegraph our play selection and then successfully execute it. We aren't the 1960s Packers pointing out a sweep to the right and taking it for a TD.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-04-2010, 08:38 AM
We ran ZBS all last week, and it was equally as bad. regardless of the scheme right now, there's no coordination along the line when running zone, and guys are getting owned in the man blocking scheme.

This is simply not true.

outdoor_miner
10-04-2010, 08:48 AM
That said, the O-Line is very young and inexperienced. Both tackles are coming off injuries. The five of them have spent very little time together as a unit and the cohesion isn't there yet. Things will improve. (No place to go but up anyway.)

This is what gives me hope. Yesterday was as bad as I've ever seen as a fan. With that being said - our QB put the team on his back and won the game. If the OL can get some time as a unit and gel (and our running game can become "average") this offense can do great things. Kyle Orton is buying this team a little time. If they can eek out a victory in one of the next two, I will be really excited for the back half of the year.

Mountain Bronco
10-04-2010, 08:50 AM
Yes

Dr. Broncenstein
10-04-2010, 09:04 AM
Excellent post, repped.

Point blank: We need a "smarter" running game. We don't have the talent to telegraph our play selection and then successfully execute it. We aren't the 1960s Packers pointing out a sweep to the right and taking it for a TD.

The problems IMO with our scheme, if we are going to run 11 personnel as our base formation:

1. Non threat reciever at tight end.
2. Eddie Royal's run blocking
3. A runningback that can account for the unblocked defender

I still think we can make the defense play honest if we take the occasional shot down field. Every play with the exception of one yesterday was a short-intermediate pass or a run. With rare exception, the Titans had at least 8 defenders in the box even though we were three wide. It isn't fooling anyone, and apparently it isn't scaring anyone either.

That said, Orton was the ****ing man yesterday. That, and our defense couldn't have played CJ any better. I was kind of sour watching the game live, but I'm pretty happy in retrospect having re-watched the game. They tried to take away the short-intermediate game, and they couldn't. Take away the clock management fiasco and the kick-return, we kicked their asses in a hostile environment.

broncosteven
10-04-2010, 09:31 AM
Excellent post, repped.

Point blank: We need a "smarter" running game. We don't have the talent to telegraph our play selection and then successfully execute it. We aren't the 1960s Packers pointing out a sweep to the right and taking it for a TD.

But that is mCd's style, he wants to do things his way.

It is almost like he is trying to train a dog by running the same plays over and over if they execute then the yardage gain is their payoff, if they get creamed by the other team they are humiliated into getting better.

Thanks for the post Dr. B, I thought they have been running a very few base runs out of the same formations. That 3 TE jumbo with a pulling guard or tackle is the play dujour of the league right now. I don't mind them running it but design something off that so D's need to stay honest.

broncosteven
10-04-2010, 09:35 AM
Heeeey... wet-blanket-boy showed up!


At least one of the trolls had the guts to show up today after a win.

How can you be proud of the team in losses but then criticize a win?

I think 2 of the mCd protectors got week long bans right after the win yesterday so it doesn't seem that us "wet blankets" are the problem around here.

Tombstone RJ
10-04-2010, 09:43 AM
the running game is tragic. The Broncos are living on borrowed time if they can't run the ball effectively. If I was McD I'd make it a priority. We know the Broncos can pass the ball and play defense, but it's all for not if they can't run the ball. Focus on the run and shoring up special teams and this team is much better.

broncosteven
10-04-2010, 09:52 AM
BTW after watching the crappy sunday night game the Bronco's have a much better OL than Chicago does.

If we tried to throw 50 times with the OL duh bears have none of our QB's would be alive right now.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-04-2010, 09:55 AM
BTW after watching the crappy sunday night game the Bronco's have a much better OL than Chicago does.

If we tried to throw 50 times with the OL duh bears have none of our QB's would be alive right now.

Well at least Martz counters his lack of OL talent with a steady dose of seven step drops. He's a mad genius.

Popps
10-04-2010, 11:07 AM
How can you be proud of the team in losses but then criticize a win?

I think 2 of the mCd protectors got week long bans right after the win yesterday so it doesn't seem that us "wet blankets" are the problem around here.

Hey, look... we're just glad you were able to show your face after a win. I know that must have been hard on you.

But, I have confidence in you. I know you'll be working hard to **** on people's fun all week. Plus, we've got a tough game next weekend. Odds are, we won't win... so you'll really be able to do your thing next Sunday night.

Be strong, Wetty.

In the meanwhile, maybe go find some old ladies to push over or some kids birthday parties to ruin.

broncosteven
10-04-2010, 12:23 PM
Hey, look... we're just glad you were able to show your face after a win. I know that must have been hard on you.

But, I have confidence in you. I know you'll be working hard to **** on people's fun all week. Plus, we've got a tough game next weekend. Odds are, we won't win... so you'll really be able to do your thing next Sunday night.

Be strong, Wetty.

In the meanwhile, maybe go find some old ladies to push over or some kids birthday parties to ruin.

Your the one knocking the OL and run game. Your proud of the team when they lose but then are allowed to critique when the win and I am a wet blanket for being proud of our OL for not concussing our QB when he drops back 57 and 50 times (over 100 pass attempts) over the last 2 weeks?

Seems I hit a sensitive area.

bendog
10-04-2010, 12:49 PM
Well at least Martz counters his lack of OL talent with a steady dose of seven step drops. He's a mad genius.

I think McDaniels is slipping him some cash under the table.

ColoradoDarin
10-04-2010, 12:59 PM
I think McDaniels is slipping him some cash under the table.

If only he didn't do it to Kurt Warner, Bulger with the Rams and then carry it to Detroit and SF. Sad to say, that I called it (not that it was hard to call, so I can't really pat myself on the back for being Capt Obvious here), Martz + bad OL = QB getting killed.

bendog
10-04-2010, 01:01 PM
http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/2010/10/schadenfreude-gallery-all-the-photos-of-jay-cutler-getting-sacked-you-could-possibly-want.html

Dr. Broncenstein
10-04-2010, 01:07 PM
His number is 6, but at times it looked like a 9.

http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/cutler-sack7.jpg

azbroncfan
10-04-2010, 02:14 PM
The running game is so bad now they shouldn't even try to run the ball. Gives one less down to pass for a first and adds about 3 yards to the next play.

Popps
10-04-2010, 02:39 PM
Your the one knocking the OL and run game. Your proud of the team when they lose but then are allowed to critique when .

I'm allowed to do whatever I want, boss.

Just like you're allowed to pout, moan, complain and trash the Broncos as your main source of pleasure in life.

Isn't the internet great?

Now, go torture some puppies or something, Captain Misery.

vancejohnson82
10-04-2010, 03:02 PM
BTW after watching the crappy sunday night game the Bronco's have a much better OL than Chicago does.

If we tried to throw 50 times with the OL duh bears have none of our QB's would be alive right now.

the OL sucked but when you have a weak or suspect OLine (like I believe ours is) its up to the coach to shorten the plays up and the QB to get rid of hte ball

CEH
10-04-2010, 03:31 PM
The problems IMO with our scheme, if we are going to run 11 personnel as our base formation:

1. Non threat reciever at tight end.
2. Eddie Royal's run blocking
3. A runningback that can account for the unblocked defender

I still think we can make the defense play honest if we take the occasional shot down field. Every play with the exception of one yesterday was a short-intermediate pass or a run. With rare exception, the Titans had at least 8 defenders in the box even though we were three wide. It isn't fooling anyone, and apparently it isn't scaring anyone either.

That said, Orton was the ****ing man yesterday. That, and our defense couldn't have played CJ any better. I was kind of sour watching the game live, but I'm pretty happy in retrospect having re-watched the game. They tried to take away the short-intermediate game, and they couldn't. Take away the clock management fiasco and the kick-return, we kicked their asses in a hostile environment.

I've been saying #3 for a while now. When you're base offense is 3 wides with Graham or 4 wides with DT you are outnumbered to begin with

When the Oline starts to gel so it's going to be up to Moreno/Maroney/Buck to make someone miss. I believe 1 and 2 will improve #3 not do sure and will be the real test of our running game once the Oline plays longer together

Just think a pass play 9 guys can screw up and one can still make a play but with the running game if one guy screws up the whole play probably breaks down unless you have a special back

broncosteven
10-04-2010, 03:33 PM
I'm allowed to do whatever I want, boss.

Just like you're allowed to pout, moan, complain and trash the Broncos as your main source of pleasure in life.

Isn't the internet great?

Now, go torture some puppies or something, Captain Misery.

I am going to best buy and piss on a stack of Ipads. I like puppies.

bendog
10-04-2010, 03:37 PM
thinking of puppies, I had a brief happy time thinking Vick might have taken a broken rib into a lung or perhaps a ruptured spleen ..... but unfortunately it was just a pain injury that any pitbull would have to fight through

Dr. Broncenstein
10-04-2010, 03:45 PM
I've been saying #3 for a while now. When you're base offense is 3 wides with Graham or 4 wides with DT you are outnumbered to begin with



This is what I find the most frustrating from yesterday. If you are in 3 or 4 wide sets, you are only going to run if they respect the threat of the down field pass. We are either throwing short or running. Makes no difference to the defense... just stack the line and try to disrupt. We need to take a shot downfield here and there... it's open, and we have guys in Thomas and Lloyd that can go get it. Then run. Otherwise line up in 21 /12 / 22 personnel and at least take Royal out of the run blocking equation.

Popps
10-04-2010, 04:21 PM
This is what I find the most frustrating from yesterday. If you are in 3 or 4 wide sets, you are only going to run if they respect the threat of the down field pass. We are either throwing short or running. Makes no difference to the defense... just stack the line and try to disrupt. We need to take a shot downfield here and there... it's open, and we have guys in Thomas and Lloyd that can go get it. Then run. Otherwise line up in 21 /12 / 22 personnel and at least take Royal out of the run blocking equation.

I'm usually not a big "throw it deep" guy, but I agree, in this case. We did it against Indy with some success and I really thought their defense wasn't respecting the long-ball at all yesterday.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-04-2010, 06:45 PM
I'm usually not a big "throw it deep" guy, but I agree, in this case. We did it against Indy with some success and I really thought their defense wasn't respecting the long-ball at all yesterday.

They didn't. When we were 3-4 wide, they were 8-9 in the box with rare exception. That's why we couldn't run. People want to blame the line, but there were just a handful of plays where guys were legitimately beaten. Even if we were passing, it was short-intermediate range on a three step drop. We took one shot down field and it was so open they had to mug Gaffney to prevent the touchdown.

Popps
10-04-2010, 07:00 PM
They didn't. When we were 3-4 wide, they were 8-9 in the box with rare exception. That's why we couldn't run. People want to blame the line, but there were just a handful of plays where guys were legitimately beaten. Even if we were passing, it was short-intermediate range on a three step drop. We took one shot down field and it was so open they had to mug Gaffney to prevent the touchdown.

Good breakdown.

I haven't re-watched it yet. But, if you're correct... that's at least somewhat encouraging for our line. If they're stacking the line, McDaniels will see it on film and plan to exploit it in future games.

This coming Sunday should be a good barometer of where we are, overall.
Baltimore is rock-solid, top to bottom. Kyle won't be able to throw for 400 yards this weekend. We'll have to play a more complete game.

baja
10-04-2010, 07:47 PM
Any news on Moreno

snowspot66
10-04-2010, 08:03 PM
They didn't. When we were 3-4 wide, they were 8-9 in the box with rare exception. That's why we couldn't run. People want to blame the line, but there were just a handful of plays where guys were legitimately beaten. Even if we were passing, it was short-intermediate range on a three step drop. We took one shot down field and it was so open they had to mug Gaffney to prevent the touchdown.

I have to ask then if we had a realistic chance to throw it deep? We've done it a lot more this year so I wonder if we were trying to set it up but the pressure they managed to put on, especially in the first quarter, just disrupted that.

elsid13
10-04-2010, 08:10 PM
the OL sucked but when you have a weak or suspect OLine (like I believe ours is) its up to the coach to shorten the plays up and the QB to get rid of hte ball

Not if you are Mad Mike Martz. No wonder Bulger is shell of his former self.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-04-2010, 08:29 PM
I have to ask then if we had a realistic chance to throw it deep? We've done it a lot more this year so I wonder if we were trying to set it up but the pressure they managed to put on, especially in the first quarter, just disrupted that.

Hard to say. Orton had the time if he wanted it. It just seemed like the Titans knew what we were going to do from a passing standpoint, and they couldn't stop it. We couldn't run against the stacked defense, but Orton was just money yesterday... maybe to the point that we just continued to take what the defense would give. Orton put on a clinic despite the pressure... most of which was generated by defensive holding.