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Popps
09-28-2010, 03:57 PM
News: Browns coach Eric Mangini said RB Peyton Hillis will remain the starter Week 4 against the Bengals regardless of whether Jerome Harrison is able to return from his thigh injury. Hillis had 22 carries for 144 yards and a touchdown Week 3 at Baltimore.
(CBS Sports)



Commence forum implosion...

Rulon Velvet Jones
09-28-2010, 03:59 PM
You know better than to do this, Popps.

Popps
09-28-2010, 04:01 PM
You know better than to do this, Popps.

http://helian.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/nuclear-explosion.jpg

vancejohnson82
09-28-2010, 04:01 PM
hahaha...this has 16 pages written all over

Popps
09-28-2010, 04:03 PM
hahaha...this has 16 pages written all over

:sunshine:


Just doing Taco a solid. Traffic, and all.

Tombstone RJ
09-28-2010, 04:04 PM
where's the pic of darth vader screaming NOOOOO!!

Pony Boy
09-28-2010, 04:04 PM
Wow ...... Hillis might be the first white running back to gain 1000 yds in 25 years.......Craig James in '85'.

Popps
09-28-2010, 04:06 PM
http://questionitnow.com/educationb/uploaded_images/QuestionItNow%20End%20Times-703524.jpg

OBF1
09-28-2010, 04:07 PM
Lets talk asian running backs in NFL history

Chris
09-28-2010, 04:08 PM
http://www.worldofstock.com/slides/PCH4675.jpg

broncosteven
09-28-2010, 04:09 PM
The good news is that Richard Quinn might be cut

Popps
09-28-2010, 04:10 PM
The good news is that Richard Quinn might be cut

Unlesssssssss..... we trade him for Harrison?

Huh? Like it?

barryr
09-28-2010, 04:13 PM
Yes, Hillis is a good starter at RB for a team that wins 3-4 games.

broncogary
09-28-2010, 04:13 PM
I like it. I picked up Hillis in fantasy football last night.

Mr.Meanie
09-28-2010, 04:15 PM
Moreno is miles better than Hillis.

BroncoDoug
09-28-2010, 04:19 PM
ib4 25 pages

Rulon Velvet Jones
09-28-2010, 04:25 PM
I'll just lump this in here, but Tom Brandstater is back on the streets after being released from the Colts practice squad.

fontaine
09-28-2010, 04:26 PM
I'm glad for Hillis, just like I was glad for Anderson/Droughns when they moved and did well.

Hopefully Moreno/Harris/Kuper come back strong and save our non existent running game.

Dagmar
09-28-2010, 04:27 PM
100,576 neg rep points, 25 pages, 10 meltdowns, 2 bannings and a partridge in a pear tree.

HILife
09-28-2010, 04:36 PM
News: Browns coach Eric Mangini said RB Peyton Hillis will remain the starter Week 4 against the Bengals regardless of whether Jerome Harrison is able to return from his thigh injury. Hillis had 22 carries for 144 yards and a touchdown Week 3 at Baltimore.
(CBS Sports)



Commence forum implosion...

I do still believe that Hillis didn't get a fair chance here. I'm pretty sure the coaches saw something I didn't, but I still say give him the carries and lets see what happens. Oh well, he's not here anymore, time to move on.

HILife
09-28-2010, 04:37 PM
hahaha...this has 16 pages written all over

Being a little conservative with your count?

Popps
09-28-2010, 04:41 PM
I do still believe that Hillis didn't get a fair chance here. I'm pretty sure the coaches saw something I didn't, but I still say give him the carries and lets see what happens. Oh well, he's not here anymore, time to move on.

He's fun to watch.

I do believe there is a reason Shanny and Josh didn't make him a starter.

But, it's a good story to watch. :)

SouthStndJunkie
09-28-2010, 04:44 PM
After his performance against the Ravens, Peyton Hillis deserves his shot to be the starter.

Taco John
09-28-2010, 04:51 PM
:sunshine:


Just doing Taco a solid. Traffic, and all.

LOL! This cloud server can handle it! We're getting more traffic than we've gotten in history on game days, and not so much as a hiccup!

Taco John
09-28-2010, 04:53 PM
He's fun to watch.

I do believe there is a reason Shanny and Josh didn't make him a starter.

But, it's a good story to watch. :)


Shanny did make him a starter. There's a reason Josh didn't make him a starter though: didn't want his first round pick overall being shown up by Shanny's 7th rounder. And it would have happened too. Peyton Hillis runs harder than Moreno and is a better all around back than him.

/thread rocket boosters on

cutthemdown
09-28-2010, 04:53 PM
Hillis making Mcdaniels look bad no doubt about it. he's running hard like he always did. Let's see if he lasts. He's really running people over right now.

Kaylore
09-28-2010, 04:54 PM
Hillis is amazing. He can do anything. He's the greatest. :approve:

Popps
09-28-2010, 04:57 PM
Hillis is amazing. He can do anything. He's the greatest. :approve:

I said we should have kept him.


No one would listen.

Dagmar
09-28-2010, 04:57 PM
Hillis is amazing. He can do anything. He's the greatest. :approve:

He died for our (read:Josh) sins you know.

Popps
09-28-2010, 04:58 PM
He's got 5 tools.

Dagmar
09-28-2010, 04:58 PM
http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2008/1208/fantasy_a_phillis_300.jpg

You can see the halo if you have the full size version.

Dagmar
09-28-2010, 05:03 PM
http://i51.tinypic.com/2heljqd.jpg

Epic paint skillssssssssssss.

Taco John
09-28-2010, 05:05 PM
He's got 5 tools.

Yup

Watch the highlight reel above at 1:00 and check those few runs. It's runs like those that separate him from bruiser-types people want to compare him to. This isn't Mike Alstott, folks. Hillis has legitimate starting RB vision and moves. He's big, so he's not going to look like Barry Sanders when he runs, but this isn't a plodding back. He's got excellent body-control and awareness. He uses his blockers (even if he has to knock them over) and doesn't force things when they're not there.

Again, I think it's all just great that he can catch, block, kick, cook, paint and any other skills he may have. But, I want to see this guy lining up for at least 1/3rd of our carries. After watching him last year, there is absolutely no acceptable excuse for not giving this guy 10-15 carries a game, or more.

Taco John
09-28-2010, 05:07 PM
http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2008/1208/fantasy_a_phillis_300.jpg

You can see the halo if you have the full size version.

Seriously though... What kinds of IPAs are in your area. I'd like to start narrowing down the beer you'll be sending me early so that I can look forward to it properly.

Dedhed
09-28-2010, 05:07 PM
Hillis making Mcdaniels look bad no doubt about it.
No he's not.

Hamrob
09-28-2010, 05:08 PM
I liked Hillis and thought he never got a fair shot. But, if you liked Brady Quinn and his potential and wanted someone to push Orton...that's not a bad trade.

Now, Quinn hasn't looked all that great as of yet, but I still don't blame McDaniels for the deal he made...it was a good deal.

2 2's for Marshall was a good deal.
2 1's and a 3 for Cutler was a good deal.

But, you have to make those draft picks and trades into something quickly or your bacon is burnt.

Moreno - Bad pick for #12 (equates to 2nd/3rd round talent)
Quinn the TE - Bust
Ayers - Good pick (He'll be a beast with Doom in the line up)
Thomas - Good pick (Loads of potential - needs time)
Tebow - Good pick (Big-balls to make this pick)...I think he's going to be big time

The issue really comes down to how much time McD is given to cook the dinner. He was given the checkbook and allowed to shop for the groceries...now he needs to produce a masterpiece.

Bowlen didn't fire Shanny to wait another 3-4yrs to make the playoffs.

Taco John
09-28-2010, 05:11 PM
I think it's great that the people who are being proven wrong about Hillis can sit back and mock, but I don't think they should believe that anybody is buying that they're feeling good about watching Moreno sit on the bench in street clothes while Hillis is destroying the Ravens defense.

Kaylore
09-28-2010, 05:14 PM
I really don't care about Hillis outside of hoping to get a pizza out of him. I am not happy about Moreno being hurt, but that's not really his fault.

Jay3
09-28-2010, 05:14 PM
This is starting to get harder to ignore. It's like the "beat the dead Hillis-horse" people are starting to win.

Dedhed
09-28-2010, 05:19 PM
I think it's great that the people who are being proven wrong about Hillis can sit back and mock

The fact that Hillis blew his chance here won't change regardless of what he does in Cleveland.

~Crash~
09-28-2010, 05:25 PM
I'm glad for Hillis, just like I was glad for Anderson/Droughns when they moved and did well.

Hopefully Moreno/Harris/Kuper come back strong and save our non existent running game.

this !:afro: Thank you

~Crash~
09-28-2010, 05:25 PM
The fact that Hillis blew his chance here won't change regardless of what he does in Cleveland.

yep you are a dead head

vancejohnson82
09-28-2010, 05:26 PM
Can we start filling out Pro Bowl ballots now?

Popps
09-28-2010, 05:28 PM
I think it's great that the people who are being proven wrong about Hillis can sit back and mock, but I don't think they should believe that anybody is buying that they're feeling good about watching Moreno sit on the bench in street clothes while Hillis is destroying the Ravens defense.

Plus, let's have a little fun here before we get too heavy, Taco.

Hillis has had one good game.

You may recall how his last stint as a "starter" ended in Denver....

injury, out for season.

cabronco
09-28-2010, 05:32 PM
The fact that Hillis blew his chance here won't change regardless of what he does in Cleveland.

I don't think Hillis got a fair chance with McDaniels here. Its all water under the bridge now, but Hillis is doing what he's always done and thats moving the chains while running defenders over.

Popps
09-28-2010, 05:33 PM
The fact that Hillis blew his chance here won't change regardless of what he does in Cleveland.

It is too bad. McDaniels places a premium on smart players who work hard. Apparently he just wasn't one of them.

But, props to Cleveland if they can make it work out. Seriously.

Shanny and Josh just didn't see him as a starter. Fun side-story to follow, though.

Dagmar
09-28-2010, 05:33 PM
I really don't care about Hillis outside of hoping to get a pizza out of him. I am not happy about Moreno being hurt, but that's not really his fault.

I think Taco is in "wind up mood", implying that Moreno's injury makes Hillis superior is ridiculous and he knows it.

And TJ, I'm in Denver dude, finding an IPA around here ain't hard!

Dedhed
09-28-2010, 05:35 PM
yep you are a dead head

SO you're saying that if he runs for 1500 yards in Cleveland it will magically erase the mistakes and fumbles that got him shipped there.

Dagmar
09-28-2010, 05:35 PM
I'm glad for Hillis, just like I was glad for Anderson/Droughns when they moved and did well.

Hopefully Moreno/Harris/Kuper come back strong and save our non existent running game.

This.

Popps
09-28-2010, 05:35 PM
It also raises the question... are they doing something more effectively in the blocking department in Cleveland than we are in Denver.

Hmmmmmm....

strafen
09-28-2010, 05:35 PM
No he's not.


say that 20 times in a row, and I'll bet you will even believe it...

Taco John
09-28-2010, 05:36 PM
I think Taco is in "wind up mood", implying that Moreno's injury makes Hillis superior is ridiculous and he knows it.

And TJ, I'm in Denver dude, finding an IPA around here ain't hard!

That's not what I'm implying at all. It's not Moreno's injury that makes Hillis a superior runner. It's that Hillis is better at taking the ball and running it towards the endzone that makes him a superior runner.

There is a caveat, however. Hillis doesn't seem to be nearly as good an east-west runner as Moreno is.

strafen
09-28-2010, 05:37 PM
It also raises the question... are they doing something more effectively in the blocking department in Cleveland than we are in Denver.

Hmmmmmm....lol!!!!
Keep spinning it. It's gotta be something, but God forbid is the guys natural abilties to pound the ball against ANY team in the NFL...

Dedhed
09-28-2010, 05:37 PM
I don't think Hillis got a fair chance with McDaniels here. Its all water under the bridge now, but Hillis is doing what he's always done and thats moving the chains while running defenders over.

Sure he did. He clearly wasn't handling practice well, leading to being buried on the depth chart at RB. Missed assignments regularly.

McDaniels gave him a chance on STs and he bombed. What more do you want?

baja
09-28-2010, 05:38 PM
Was there a conditional pick attached to the Hillis / Quinn trade?

Popps
09-28-2010, 05:38 PM
That's not what I'm implying at all. It's not Moreno's injury that makes Hillis a superior runner. It's that Hillis is better at taking the ball and running it towards the endzone that makes him a superior runner.

There is a caveat, however. Hillis doesn't seem to be nearly as good an east-west runner as Moreno is.

The last we saw of Hillis was him getting stuffed on a crucial 3rd and short at Indy.

Moreno came in and mopped up after him for the first down.


Then again, maybe Hillis was running the wrong play. Who kowns.


^5

strafen
09-28-2010, 05:39 PM
Sure he did. He clearly wasn't handling practice well, leading to being buried on the depth chart at RB. Missed assignments regularly.

McDaniels gave him a chance on STs and he bombed. What more do you want?

ROFL!LOLHilarious!:wave:

Popps
09-28-2010, 05:39 PM
lol!!!!
Keep spinning it. It's gotta be something, but God forbid is the guys natural abilties to pound the ball against ANY team in the NFL...


There's a lot of talk about tools and pounding around here.

Dedhed
09-28-2010, 05:39 PM
abilties to pound the ball against ANY team in the NFL...
We shall see.

strafen
09-28-2010, 05:41 PM
We shall see.

You, me, popps, and everybody has seen it.
That you don't want to believe it, is another different story...

strafen
09-28-2010, 05:42 PM
There's a lot of talk about tools and pounding around here.When it comes down to Hillis, that's exactly what you get. Now, Moreno on the other hand... LOL

Garcia Bronco
09-28-2010, 05:42 PM
The proof is in the pudding. It was a
Mistake to let him go.

baja
09-28-2010, 05:44 PM
It's not like we gave Hillis away for chopped liver. Quinn will be a very good QB, give him a season with McD.

Dedhed
09-28-2010, 05:46 PM
You, me, popps, and everybody has seen it.
That you don't want to believe it, is another different story...
It's another different story? Is that like a double negative or something?


I've seen a lot of people who like to make grand proclamations based on very little information.

joe9999
09-28-2010, 05:47 PM
Shanny did make him a starter. There's a reason Josh didn't make him a starter though: didn't want his first round pick overall being shown up by Shanny's 7th rounder. And it would have happened too. Peyton Hillis runs harder than Moreno and is a better all around back than him.

/thread rocket boosters on

Sad, funny and true. Glad to see you posting again. You are one of the rare reasonable posters since the McD era.

ColoradoDarin
09-28-2010, 05:51 PM
Eh, I hope he does well, he got his stuff together for one game, let's see if it can continue!

WolfpackGuy
09-28-2010, 05:51 PM
The last we saw of Hillis was him getting stuffed on a crucial 3rd and short at Indy.

Moreno came in and mopped up after him for the first down.

Then again, maybe Hillis was running the wrong play. Who kowns.


^5

Moreno's 1/5 (maybe worse) in short yardage that day was overwhelmingly better.

In fairness to both, the playcalling was awful in those situations that game.

Edit: Moreno was 0/3 in short yardage. Hillis had one carry for two yards on a first down play.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2009121304/2009/REG14/broncos@colts/analyze/box-score#analyze-channels:cat-post-playbyplay

strafen
09-28-2010, 05:53 PM
It's another different story? Is that like a double negative or something?


I've seen a lot of people who like to make grand proclamations based on very little information.

So you don't recall any of Hillis runs here in Denver at all?
You;re making claims the guy blew his chances here in meaningless amount of plays?
Had McDaniels given Hillis a full game to play lst year, he would've shown what he has always have.
The only meaningful game Hillis played last year was against KC. Yet, people were quick to point out it was during garbage time. That's just too funny.
All I can say is that Hillis will have a great season, better than all the RB's combined we currently have in our roster...

cabronco
09-28-2010, 05:54 PM
Sure he did. He clearly wasn't handling practice well, leading to being buried on the depth chart at RB. Missed assignments regularly.

McDaniels gave him a chance on STs and he bombed. What more do you want?

Well apparently the Rb's that were practicing well and doing their assignments forgot to translate that on game day, as the running game failed many times last year to pick up a yard or two more times than I care to remember.. This year the same albeit with rookie lineman. Hopefully the run game starts developing soon, or we'll be a pass happy team that struggles in the red zone.

Dedhed
09-28-2010, 05:59 PM
Shanny did make him a starter. There's a reason Josh didn't make him a starter though: didn't want his first round pick overall being shown up by Shanny's 7th rounder. And it would have happened too. Peyton Hillis runs harder than Moreno and is a better all around back than him.


This is absolute revisionist history. Saying Shanahan made him the starter is like saying Shaun Hill won the starting job in Detroit.

And yeah, McDaniels has shown a real penchant for playing guys because of where they were drafted instead of how they perform.

Dedhed
09-28-2010, 06:01 PM
Well apparently the Rb's that were practicing well and doing their assignments forgot to translate that on game day, as the running game failed many times last year to pick up a yard or two more times than I care to remember.

And Hillis was among those failing in short yardage in the beginning of the season, although I'm sure you've forgotten that.

Then he added missed assignments and fumbles to the mix, and he was gone.

Taco John
09-28-2010, 06:03 PM
This is absolute revisionist history. Saying Shanahan made him the starter is like saying Shaun Hill won the starting job in Detroit.

And yeah, McDaniels has shown a real penchant for playing guys because of where they were drafted instead of how they perform.


Fact: Shanahan put Hillis in as a starter. However that came about is immaterial. Hillis got starting carries and made the most of them. That's been the hallmark of his career to date: when he gets an ample opportunity to do his thing, he does it well.

But you guys are right that when he was given one-off duties where he didn't get many opportunities in practice and was thrown in cold, he performed like it.

I'm happy to see such a quality kid getting his come-uppance. He is a hard worker, a good teammate, and was a solid Bronco who appreciated being a Bronco so much that he saluted the fans when he got into the endzone.

http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/5138/doc4b9d5549963dc7589292.jpg

Taco John
09-28-2010, 06:08 PM
This wouldn't even be a controversey if our running game wasn't so atrocious right now.

Popps
09-28-2010, 06:08 PM
Taco, just wondering...

Considering that 3 different coaches declined to make him a starter and he's only played when people in front of him were injured... what makes you know he's a "hard worker?"

Or a good teammate, for that matter?

Popps
09-28-2010, 06:09 PM
Also, do you have a bigger Hillis pic?

Can't see all of his tools.

Dedhed
09-28-2010, 06:09 PM
So you don't recall any of Hillis runs here in Denver at all?
You;re making claims the guy blew his chances here in meaningless amount of plays?


Hillis was great in spot duty in Shanahan's system.

He was a worthless liability in the system we run now.

Why would McDaniels continue to give opportunities to him when he was utterly failing with the opportunities he was given? To make you feel good?

Popps
09-28-2010, 06:10 PM
Hillis was great in spot duty in Shanahan's system.

He was a worthless liability in the system we run now.

Why would McDaniels continue to give opportunities to him when he was utterly failing with the opportunities he was given? To make you feel good?

On account of his tools.

Bob's your Information Minister
09-28-2010, 06:12 PM
Moreno is miles better than Hillis.

In parcheesi or something?

TonyR
09-28-2010, 06:15 PM
Shanny did make him a starter. There's a reason Josh didn't make him a starter though: didn't want his first round pick overall being shown up by Shanny's 7th rounder.

This silly theory would perhaps hold a thimble's worth of water if McD hadn't proven he isn't afraid of admitting mistakes by dumping Alphonso Smith. If he thought Hillis was the better player he'd still be here. He clearly didn't think that, nor should he have.

colonelbeef
09-28-2010, 06:15 PM
Another fantastic pick by Shanahan.

Dedhed
09-28-2010, 06:16 PM
Fact: Shanahan put Hillis in as a starter. However that came about is immaterial. No it's not. He clearly had done nothing in practice to impress Shanahan or McDaniels, and that is certainly material if you're going to argue that Hillis was never given a chance.

Practice is your chance in this league, and you do it every day. If you work hard there you get real chances.


I'm happy to see such a quality kid getting his come-uppance. He is a hard worker, a good teammate, and was a solid Bronco

You don't know that any of this is true, only that it supports your allegiance to him.

colonelbeef
09-28-2010, 06:18 PM
He's fun to watch.

I do believe there is a reason Shanny and Josh didn't make him a starter.

But, it's a good story to watch. :)

Yeah, he was a rookie, and he eventually did start.

He is the perfect hybrid FB, and he would definitely still be here if Shanahan was still the coach.

The trade didn't make sense at the time, and it looks absolutely horrible now

colonelbeef
09-28-2010, 06:18 PM
No it's not. He clearly had done nothing in practice to impress Shanahan or McDaniels, and that is certainly material if you're going to argue that Hillis was never given a chance.

Practice is your chance in this league, and you do it every day. If you work hard there you get real chances.


You don't know that any of this is true, only that it supports your allegiance to him.

Just like you don't know what Jay Cutler is really like, right?

colonelbeef
09-28-2010, 06:19 PM
This silly theory would perhaps hold a thimble's worth of water if McD hadn't proven he isn't afraid of admitting mistakes by dumping Alphonso Smith. If he thought Hillis was the better player he'd still be here. He clearly didn't think that, nor should he have.

Thats all well and fine, but how about he starts making less of these terrible mistakes initially so that we don't have to pat him on the back for admitting them later

Dedhed
09-28-2010, 06:25 PM
he would definitely still be here if Shanahan was still the coach.So would Bob Slowik, Jamie Winborn, Nate Webster, Nate Jackson, Keary Colbert, Marlon McRee, Marquand Manuel, Calvin Lowry, Dre Bly, Niko Koutawhatever, Boss Bailey, etc.

TonyR
09-28-2010, 06:28 PM
Thats all well and fine, but how about he starts making less of these terrible mistakes initially so that we don't have to pat him on the back for admitting them later

Nobody's "patting him on the back". A Smith and R Quinn appear to have been mistakes. Not the first or last mistakes McD will make, as with any coach. Unlike you I'm not going to get worked up about Peyton Hillis having a good game in Cleveland. With our run blocking he wouldn't have done that here.

WolfpackGuy
09-28-2010, 06:28 PM
And Hillis was among those failing in short yardage in the beginning of the season, although I'm sure you've forgotten that.

Then he added missed assignments and fumbles to the mix, and he was gone.

FUMBLES?

He had ONE all of 2009, and that was on a KICKOFF return!

Los Broncos
09-28-2010, 06:32 PM
What does it mean for Colquitt?

TonyR
09-28-2010, 06:32 PM
So would Bob Slowik, Jamie Winborn, Nate Webster, Nate Jackson, Keary Colbert, Marlon McRee, Marquand Manuel, Calvin Lowry, Dre Bly, Niko Koutawhatever, Boss Bailey, etc.

That list of names still makes me shudder.

Dedhed
09-28-2010, 06:34 PM
Just like you don't know what Jay Cutler is really like, right?

I know he's a pouty quitter on the sidelines when the chips are down, and that's enough.

rugbythug
09-28-2010, 06:36 PM
FUMBLES?

He had ONE all of 2009, and that was on a KICKOFF return!

Hillis-was only in 6-10 offensive plays last year. Other than garbage time at KC

He fumbled, went offsides, dropped passes basically pissed away his assignments. Not sure how many years he needed to stay here to get a good shot. BTW is what hillis doing anything different than what the Browns did at the end of last year?

Dedhed
09-28-2010, 06:41 PM
That list of names still makes me shudder.

Its pitiful.

~Crash~
09-28-2010, 06:55 PM
SO you're saying that if he runs for 1500 yards in Cleveland it will magically erase the mistakes and fumbles that got him shipped there.

He never did anthing wrong . He gave it his all every play and was a good team mate .

broncosteven
09-28-2010, 06:56 PM
This silly theory would perhaps hold a thimble's worth of water if McD hadn't proven he isn't afraid of admitting mistakes by dumping Alphonso Smith. If he thought Hillis was the better player he'd still be here. He clearly didn't think that, nor should he have.

So your saying that if mCd thought he was wrong he would have gone and got Hillis back this week?

I am confused

Rabb
09-28-2010, 06:59 PM
I heard a guy in front of me at the game Sunday saying over and over how stupid we were for dumping Hillis and Scheffler.

I don't think anyone will deny their physical tools and talents, but we just were not the system for them any longer. We clearly aren't using a TE to stretch the field, Detroit will. We need backs that are versatile, and while I think Hillis has some tools he is best when he has one or two jobs in a pretty straight forward system which is what Cleveland needs.

Could Hillis help us in short yardage situations? Sure. So can Brown probably, and eventually Tebow.

The coach didn't see them as a fit here, he traded them, it's over and time to move on. Good lord people.

The MVPlaya
09-28-2010, 07:10 PM
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/3/lu3z6.gif

Taco John
09-28-2010, 07:15 PM
What does it mean for Colquitt?

I'm afraid they're going to have to amputate.

Hamrob
09-28-2010, 07:15 PM
This silly theory would perhaps hold a thimble's worth of water if McD hadn't proven he isn't afraid of admitting mistakes by dumping Alphonso Smith. If he thought Hillis was the better player he'd still be here. He clearly didn't think that, nor should he have.And, just who the hell is McDaniels? Give me a break. McDaniels has done nothing in this league as a head coach and talent evaluater.

He traded Hillis for Quinn...not a bad trade in my book.

Hillis is a talented kid with plenty of upside...McD wanted to take his chance with Quinn. It had little to do with him thinking that Hillis didn't have talent r that he squandered his chances in Denver. It was a clean break for both sides.

Hillis will do very well in Cleveland or anywhere else where they decide to utilize his skillset. They will need to change it up with their speed back and allow Hillis time to wear on a defense. We all know he has excellent hands out of the backfield and can be a weapon if used correctly.

Taco John
09-28-2010, 07:17 PM
SO you're saying that if he runs for 1500 yards in Cleveland it will magically erase the mistakes and fumbles that got him shipped there.

...as though they never happened.

Taco John
09-28-2010, 07:18 PM
I don't think anyone will deny their physical tools and talents, but we just were not the system for them any longer.



Hillis just gained 140 yards rushing against the Ravens defense in virtually the same fundamental offense as we run.

Hamrob
09-28-2010, 07:21 PM
It's amazing just how many of you are so Mcfatuated that you refuse to admit that Hillis is a talented young kid with a bright NFL future.

SoCalBronco
09-28-2010, 07:28 PM
http://media.cleveland.com/startingblocks/photo/peyton-hillis-nopadsjpg-0a4b06a3fbb8e3a0_large.jpg

IMO.....he's the next LeBron for that city, albeit more gifted. ;D

Good for Hillis.

rbackfactory80
09-28-2010, 07:29 PM
Peyton Hillis, that trade set the franchise back at least a decade. That one is sure to set our franchise back at least as bad as the Herschel Walker trade crushed the Vikings.

Missouribronc
09-28-2010, 07:29 PM
It's amazing just how many of you are so Mcfatuated that you refuse to admit that Hillis is a talented young kid with a bright NFL future.

So, at this point in his three year career, he's had two really good games and something like four starts.

Thus far the only reason he sees the field is because of injuries to other players. He was the seventh option in 2008 and never really was an option in 2009. He's now the third option for quite possibly the worst team in football.

I'm honestly confused. What is so great about this dude, and why can't he win a starting job without injury?

mhgaffney
09-28-2010, 07:29 PM
Moreno is miles better than Hillis.

Moreno and Hillis in the same backfield would be better than any of the above.

go_broncos
09-28-2010, 07:30 PM
Trading Hillis for Quinn shows how dumb our coach is.

mhgaffney
09-28-2010, 07:31 PM
Who cares if his IQ is sub par?

Is this rocket science? No. The game is foootball.

Popps
09-28-2010, 07:31 PM
Peyton Hillis, that trade set the franchise back at least a decade. That one is sure to set our franchise back at least as bad as the Herschel Walker trade crushed the Vikings.

Hilarious!

For sure.

bronco militia
09-28-2010, 07:32 PM
hilllis is awesome! who knew

Missouribronc
09-28-2010, 07:34 PM
For all of you who thinks he's the greatest running back ever, can you answer the question I posed?

The MVPlaya
09-28-2010, 07:35 PM
http://media.cleveland.com/startingblocks/photo/peyton-hillis-nopadsjpg-0a4b06a3fbb8e3a0_large.jpg

IMO.....he's the next LeBron for that city, albeit more gifted. ;D

Good for Hillis.

meaning he'll quit on his team, have his mom ****ed by a teammate, have his jersey burned and never really win anything?

The MVPlaya
09-28-2010, 07:36 PM
For all of you who thinks he's the greatest running back ever, can you answer the question I posed?

Sorry, the mane doesn't accept exposure to the great Hillis.

SoCalBronco
09-28-2010, 07:36 PM
meaning he'll quit on his team, have his mom ****ed by a teammate, have his jersey burned and never really win anything?

Ok....I walked into that one. :)

Rep.

Missouribronc
09-28-2010, 07:39 PM
Sorry, the mane doesn't accept exposure to the great Hillis.

You're right. Bron, Bron is gone. I'm concerned what might happen if Hillis and Delonte West hit the local Denny's.

Bronkota
09-28-2010, 07:39 PM
For all of you who thinks he's the greatest running back ever, can you answer the question I posed?

Not the greatest running back ever but sadly better than any running back on the Broncos roster.

Missouribronc
09-28-2010, 07:42 PM
Not the greatest running back ever but sadly better than any running back on the Broncos roster.

You still didn't answer the question, but thanks for the assumption.

s0phr0syne
09-28-2010, 07:43 PM
So, at this point in his three year career, he's had two really good games and something like four starts.

Thus far the only reason he sees the field is because of injuries to other players. He was the seventh option in 2008 and never really was an option in 2009. He's now the third option for quite possibly the worst team in football.

I'm honestly confused. What is so great about this dude, and why can't he win a starting job without injury?



He's white. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM.

The MVPlaya
09-28-2010, 07:44 PM
He's white. BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM.

http://www.lolgifs.com/pictures/1b7a993f99310d7.gif

s0phr0syne
09-28-2010, 07:45 PM
Look, all the Hillis bashers can keep hating as much as they want.

Spin it any way you like, but even Shanny admitted that he had found a gem in Hillis, referring to his potential in playing the "Tiger" position and that he could be a Dallas Clark-type player.

This is all from one of his press conference while he was still the head coach of this fine organization.

So no, it's not like every coach that hillis has ever played for came away unimpressed by him. There are certain forces that work against his success, certainly some of them being things he could do differently, and others being things that he can't control. However, no one can say that he hasn't produced when given the opportunity. Just look at what the guy did in garbage time against the Queefs last year, when he really had no incentive to run that hard.

TonyR
09-28-2010, 07:51 PM
It had little to do with him thinking that Hillis didn't have talent r that he squandered his chances in Denver.

Did I say that it did? If you go back and read my post you'll see very clearly that I didn't. What I did say is that Hillis wasn't traded because McD feared he'd be better than Moreno which some of the dopes here actually believe is the case.

Missouribronc
09-28-2010, 07:51 PM
Someone answer the question.

The MVPlaya
09-28-2010, 07:52 PM
Someone answer the question.

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/8/18/bbfccedf-a938-48ed-8643-ca2a0e569461.jpg

Dedhed
09-28-2010, 07:56 PM
...as though they never happened.

Well, with that wand of yours we'll be able to get him back, increase his IQ, he won't fumble ever, and he'll be a perfect fit here.

Popps
09-28-2010, 08:01 PM
Just look at what the guy did in garbage time against the Queefs last year, when he really had no incentive to run that hard.

Hilarious!

TonyR
09-28-2010, 08:01 PM
I am confused

Yes. Yes you are. But the first step towards recovery is admitting you have a problem so you're well on your way.

Rabb
09-28-2010, 08:02 PM
Hillis just gained 140 yards rushing against the Ravens defense in virtually the same fundamental offense as we run.

It's not the same offense TJ. It's pretty clear that we are more closely modeled to the Pats with smaller and more versatile backs.

And again, don't misread what I said. He is talented, and works in a system that just wants a running back to pound the ball. That is Cleveland.

I don't buy the "since he is a Bellicheat guy, he must run the same offense" bit for a second.

Can any team use a bruiser? Absolutely. For whatever reason, we weren't going to use him like he should be used so they got what they felt was fair value.

I wish the guy well, I have no hard feelings.

Popps
09-28-2010, 08:04 PM
This thread is delivering.

Not like I'd hoped just yet, but it's early-going.

Dagmar
09-28-2010, 08:04 PM
Someone answer the question.
Won't happen. They are too mired in the opinion McDaniels is the devil to answer. Hillis has looked good in a handful of games. At the time of the trade in all honesty I was glad to pick up a QB who I thought (and still think) will be a solid back up, and a better option than Simms. And we gave up a FB who had looked good in 4 games under Shanahan, plus a late round pick. At the moment, I'd rather see Hillis and Moreno in our back field with Tebow and Orton as our 2 and 1 QBs, but at the time Orton & Quinn struck me as better than Orton & Simms.

A lot of people are under the impression Hillis was hated. Not true at all. The posters that kept claiming we would have won 2 or 3 more games if he had started, the posters who were claiming that McDaniels not giving Hillis reps was because of anti Shanahan's players bias. The same Shanahan who gave him 3 carries in the 1st 8 weeks of 2008.

Posters here don't hate Hillis, they hate posters who use this situation as another reason to hate the coach.

TonyR
09-28-2010, 08:05 PM
Look, all the Hillis bashers can keep hating as much as they want.

I don't know that anyone's hating on Hillis. I'm certainly not, I like the guy and wish he would have worked out for him in Denver. But it's silly to get so worked up over him having a good game for another team.

TonyR
09-28-2010, 08:07 PM
Posters here don't hate Hillis, they hate posters who use this situation as another reason to hate the coach.

Exactly right.

Dagmar
09-28-2010, 08:08 PM
http://i53.tinypic.com/2rm5j5j.gif

Br0nc0Buster
09-28-2010, 08:12 PM
so has the Vegas line changed since Hillis has been named starter?

I would think that alone is worth at least a 14 point difference

Pony Boy
09-28-2010, 08:13 PM
The sad fact is.... we beat Indy if we had Hills.

Missouribronc
09-28-2010, 08:15 PM
The sad fact is.... we beat Indy if we had Hills.

Is this, in fact the dumbest post of the thread?


Survey says....


YES!

We have a winner!

gunns
09-28-2010, 08:18 PM
The sad fact is.... we beat Indy if we had Hills.

I think this is the problem. While there is no reason to cry over spilled milk (letting Hillis go) and I'm not at a point where I decry moves McDaniels has made because it does take time (next year will be it for me) I have to wonder why Hillis was not used and let go. But it is what it is and like I said I'm giving McDaniels time he deserves.

KipCorrington25
09-28-2010, 08:19 PM
He's fun to watch.

I do believe there is a reason Shanny and Josh didn't make him a starter.

But, it's a good story to watch. :)

Yes, the reason being one of them got fired and the other is on pace to.

Rabb
09-28-2010, 08:21 PM
The sad fact is.... we beat Indy if we had Hills.

since today seems to be "what if" day

We would have also had a good chance with Brown in there right? He's a power guy after all.

Hell why stop there, if only we still had TD and Elway we would have won Sunday. Or if we had only kept Scheffler, he would have gotten behind all the LBs and scored every time!!!

:strong:

gunns
09-28-2010, 08:26 PM
So, at this point in his three year career, he's had two really good games and something like four starts.

Thus far the only reason he sees the field is because of injuries to other players. He was the seventh option in 2008 and never really was an option in 2009. He's now the third option for quite possibly the worst team in football.

I'm honestly confused. What is so great about this dude, and why can't he win a starting job without injury?

Because he hasn't been given a chance and was/is looked at as a FB. He was allowed to start in 6 games in 2008 and made 6 TD's...as the 7th option. Last year basically only 2 games in which he had one TD and one fumble. Looks like he's the #1 option now. I'm wondering what would have happened to Tom Brady and Kurt Warner if it weren't for winning a starting job because of injury.

Taco John
09-28-2010, 08:30 PM
I don't buy the "since he is a Bellicheat guy, he must run the same offense" bit for a second.

Both Josh McDaniels and Eric Mangini run the Erhardt-Perkins offensive system whether you believe it or not. The point of the running game in their Erhardt-Perkins offensive system is to draw the linebackers up and keep them from cheating into coverage while they send wideouts deep into coverage, opening up holes for the underneath guys and the tight ends to attack.

The type of runningback you need for this system has to be multi-talented: they need to be able to hit the holes fast, to pull the linebackers, they need to be able to pass block, they need to be able to receive out of the back field, and they need to be able to gain 3.5 yards per carry so that they can draw the play action.

The idea that Peyton Hillis is fundamentally not a good fit for this style of offense is laughable.

The MVPlaya
09-28-2010, 08:31 PM
Because [Hillis] hasn't been given a chance and was/is looked at as a FB. He was allowed to start in 6 games in 2008 and made 6 TD's...as the 7th option. Last year basically only 2 games in which he had one TD and one fumble. Looks like he's the #1 option now. I'm wondering what would have happened to Tom Brady and Kurt Warner if it weren't for winning a starting job because of injury.



http://willyobiker.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/wtf.jpg?w=306&h=227

Traveler
09-28-2010, 08:31 PM
I wonder if Hillis net net us a compensatory draft pick since he's doing so well in Cleveland?

Popps
09-28-2010, 08:32 PM
Yes, the reason being one of them got fired and the other is on pace to.

I can't tell if that's a level... but it's awesome either wa.

Hilarious!

The MVPlaya
09-28-2010, 08:32 PM
The idea that Peyton Hillis is fundamentally not a good fit for this style of offense is laughable.

Sure, even though Hillis was stuck as a back up full back and not listed as an RB all through TC and pre-season.

Taco John
09-28-2010, 08:33 PM
Sure, even though Hillis was stuck as a back up full back and not listed as an RB all through TC and pre-season.


If I was a young immature coach who had just drafted a runningback with my first draft pick of my career, I probably wouldn't want the dead last draft pick of the previous regime showing my guy up either.

gunns
09-28-2010, 08:34 PM
Is this, in fact the dumbest post of the thread?


Survey says....


YES!

We have a winner!

Nope, you must have missed this one

For all of you who thinks he's the greatest running back ever,

Get over yourself.

Rabb
09-28-2010, 08:34 PM
Both Josh McDaniels and Eric Mangini run the Erhardt-Perkins offensive system whether you believe it or not. The point of the running game in their systems is to draw the linebackers up and keep them from cheating into coverage while they send wideouts deep into coverage, opening up holes for the underneath guys and the tight ends to attack.

The type of runningback you need for this system has to be multi-talented: they need to be able to hit the holes fast, to pull the linebackers, they need to be able to pass block, they need to be able to receive out of the back field, and they need to be able to gain 3.5 yards per carry so that they can draw the play action.

The idea that Peyton Hillis is fundamentally not a good fit for this style of offense is laughable.

Ok, then how on earth are we having so much success passing the ball with no running game right now? Or better yet, why was Hillis our last option...right up there with a phone salesman...in 2008 when we were decimated at the position (under a completely different coach and with a completely different system)?

And conversely, shouldn't Cleveland be dominating now in the passing game since they have Hillis who is obviously the best fit for "our" systems?

The fact is, we are all guessing. Nobody knows why he wasn't looked upon as a fit here but the fact we all know is...he wasn't perceived that way. I always forget how much more we know than the coaches.

The MVPlaya
09-28-2010, 08:36 PM
If I was a young immature coach who had just drafted a runningback with my first draft pick of my career, I wouldn't want the dead last draft pick of the previous regime showing my guy up either.

I was talking about the Browns.

Fail.

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/30/failboatwedgie.jpg

It's quite nice that you continuously insult our coach though.

FireFly
09-28-2010, 08:36 PM
I always thought Hillis could be good.

Didn't think he got a fair chance either.

I think he's better than the RB's on our roster - Moreno might have more talent... but Hillis is on the field.

That all being said, I really thought Quinn might be a player, so I can't fault Josh for making the trade.

Taco John
09-28-2010, 08:36 PM
Ok, then how on earth are we having so much success passing the ball with no running game right now?

You've hit on the question that is keeping me up at nights. Without a running game, I don't think we'll be able to sustain our passing game at all. Thankfully, we've got some talented guys who can get down the field fast and open up the zones.

gunns
09-28-2010, 08:36 PM
http://willyobiker.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/wtf.jpg?w=306&h=227

Keep up there MVP.....he was saying the only way Hillis gets to play is if someone is hurt. That's how Brady and Warner got to play, plus how numerous other players that turned out to have some talent got their chance. Not hard to comprehend

vindico
09-28-2010, 08:37 PM
So, at this point in his three year career, he's had two really good games and something like four starts.

Thus far the only reason he sees the field is because of injuries to other players. He was the seventh option in 2008 and never really was an option in 2009. He's now the third option for quite possibly the worst team in football.

I'm honestly confused. What is so great about this dude, and why can't he win a starting job without injury?

The reason is obvious. He's white.

http://www.castefootball.us/images/temp/09a61b961a6a6ea794b67b327acba397.jpg

A superstar running back in high school who went to Arkansas and mainly blocked for NFL disappointments Felix Jones and Darren McFadden, both first round draft picks, Hillis was selected as a fullback by Denver in the 7th round in 2008. After six, count 'em six, black RBs were all felled by injuries, Mike Shanahan was forced to use Hillis at tailback, and the then-rookie was easily the team's best runner that season. When Josh McDaniels took over for Shanahan in 2009, he immediately banished Hillis from his taboo role, turning him back to his "racially mandated" role of fullback, and a little used one at that.

In the offseason Hillis was traded to Cleveland for Brady Quinn. Some optimists hoped that Hillis would be given a shot at the starting running back job against Jerome Harrison, but veteran Caste System devotee Mike Holmgren quickly squashed those hopes by drafting oft-injured Montario Hardesty in the second round in April to be the Browns' featured back. However Hardesty quickly reverted to form and went out for the year from a knee injury in his first preseason action, and once again that darned Hillis moved up the depth chart thanks to attrition.

After clearly besting Harrison as the team's best runner in the exhibition games, Hillis and Harrison had an equal number of carries in the season opener, with Hillis being more effective. However he uncharacteristically fumbled twice, which the media and self-loathing White fans jumped on as reasons why Hillis had to be replaced, either by Harrison, or the proverbial black journeyman "off the street."

Peyton Hillis is clearly a very talented all-around running back and should be the starter. But for the past 25 years the NFL has refused to let a single White man run the ball as a starter except in "emergency" situations when all the "real" running backs were injured. And on each of those occasions -- whether Brock Forsey, Heath Evans, Brad Hoover, Travis Jervey, Brian Leonard or Peyton Hillis -- the "emergency" running back has acquitted himself well only to quickly find himself moved back to his "proper" position of fullback. Hillis is a classic power back who would be an unquestioned starter at tailback in the integrated NFL of the 1950s, '60s, '70, and early '80s. But given the total "whiteout" on White RBs going back close to 30 years now, it's hard to be optimistic about Hillis's career trajectory from here, especially with Mikey Holmgren calling the personnel shots in Cleveland.

http://www.castefootball.us/index.asp

http://www.castefootball.us/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=8179&PN=47&title=peyton-hillis

Rabb
09-28-2010, 08:38 PM
If I was a young immature coach who had just drafted a runningback with my first draft pick of my career, I probably wouldn't want the dead last draft pick of the previous regime showing my guy up either.

I know this is your running theory with Hillis, but McD has pretty much shown that he will play the best player he has regardless of draft positions.

I also remember Moss getting the nod over Ayers at one point which was speculated to be because of a behavioral issue on Ayers' part. Wouldn't that qualify under the conspiracy draft theory?

The MVPlaya
09-28-2010, 08:38 PM
If I was a young immature coach who had just drafted a runningback with my first draft pick of my career, I probably wouldn't want the dead last draft pick of the previous regime showing my guy up either.

Posters here don't hate Hillis, they hate posters who use this situation as another reason to hate the coach.


http://www.lolgifs.com/pictures/1b7a993f99310d7.gif

Taco John
09-28-2010, 08:40 PM
It's quite nice that you continuously insult our coach though.


I don't know that I continuously insult Josh. I can't say that I continuously praise him either. He is intriguing to me. He's a gambler, which I don't care for, but if you've ever had a gambler for a good friend, you know that they're the life of the party. You can't take your eyes off of them because you don't know what they'll do next. You find yourself loving them for being so bold, but you also find yourself agreeing with others who talk bad about some of the lesser successful gambles.

I don't know what to think of Josh right now. He's a high risk high reward guy who doesn't seem to care about playing the odds that are in his favor when he can go for the glory doing it his way.

I certainly have no apologies for my criticisms of Josh. I think I've been more than fair with him.

Rabb
09-28-2010, 08:41 PM
You've hit on the question that is keeping me up at nights. Without a running game, I don't think we'll be able to sustain our passing game at all. Thankfully, we've got some talented guys who can get down the field fast and open up the zones.

Hey me too, believe me. The encouraging thing is, if we ever get even an average running attack...we may be the deadliest offense in the league.

All I want is the team to do well, I don't care who's helping to do it.

Let's never fight again, k?

:twokisses

The MVPlaya
09-28-2010, 08:42 PM
Keep up there MVP.....he was saying the only way Hillis gets to play is if someone is hurt. That's how Brady and Warner got to play, plus how numerous other players that turned out to have some talent got their chance. Not hard to comprehend

Yes, because Brady and Warner situations are comparable to Hillis'

bowtown
09-28-2010, 08:43 PM
If I was a young immature coach who had just drafted a runningback with my first draft pick of my career, I probably wouldn't want the dead last draft pick of the previous regime showing my guy up either.

Right, but he's cool with a 5th round pick, a 7th round pick and an undrafted rookie showing up the CB he spent a 1st and a 2nd on, and he's got no problem with a 3rd string TE he traded that pick for showing up the TE he spent two 3rds on. Yeah, McDaniels has proven again and again he'll allow public perception to get in the way of what he feels are his best chances of winning.

Taco John
09-28-2010, 08:44 PM
I know this is your running theory with Hillis, but McD has pretty much shown that he will play the best player he has regardless of draft positions.

For the most part, I buy this. But the Hillis/Moreno thing is a special deal. Like I say, I wouldn't want the dead last guy of the last regime showing up my first pick overall as a head coach.

I think Popps said it best:


This isn't Mike Alstott, folks. Hillis has legitimate starting RB vision and moves. He's big, so he's not going to look like Barry Sanders when he runs, but this isn't a plodding back. He's got excellent body-control and awareness. He uses his blockers (even if he has to knock them over) and doesn't force things when they're not there.

Again, I think it's all just great that he can catch, block, kick, cook, paint and any other skills he may have. But, I want to see this guy lining up for at least 1/3rd of our carries. After watching him last year, there is absolutely no acceptable excuse for not giving this guy 10-15 carries a game, or more.

gunns
09-28-2010, 08:47 PM
Yes, because Brady and Warner situations are comparable to Hillis'

Oh God I wish I knew how to post a facepalm pic. You deserve it.

Dagmar
09-28-2010, 08:50 PM
Oh God I wish I knew how to post a facepalm pic. You deserve it.

Click on this link.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_kl2GKlgG_Xc/SOse7AGa5qI/AAAAAAAAAgo/HrGCN8Sy5U8/s400/facepalm.jpg

Right click "copy image location".

Paste that link in place of the 3 dots.
...

Ta Da!

The MVPlaya
09-28-2010, 08:55 PM
Oh God I wish I knew how to post a facepalm pic. You deserve it.

Yes, because I'm the one attempting to prove that Brady and Warner's situations are comparable to Hillis'.

Oh God, I wish you realized how ridiculous that analogy is here.

bowtown
09-28-2010, 08:58 PM
For the most part, I buy this. But the Hillis/Moreno thing is a special deal. Like I say, I wouldn't want the dead last guy of the last regime showing up my first pick overall as a head coach.

I think Popps said it best:

Fine but your consipracy theory doesn't hold water. There are about 50 other scenarios that are more plausible than yours. Here are a few:

1. McDaniels is still learning how to judge talent.

2. Peyton Hilis is a douchebag and doesn't respond well to coaching, as his college coach CLAIMED.

3. Peyton Hillis wasn't able to hold down his assignemnts in Josh's system when he wasn't running the ball.

4. The fumbles and penalties pissed Josh off an he was trying to exert a work ethic and authority over the team as a new coach, so he put Peyton in the doghouse and gave up on him too soon.

5. Josh really liked Quinn, saw an oppertunity to get him, and went for it.

6. Bobby Turner does not like Peyon Hillis.


All of these make WAY more sense than Josh being so threatened by a 7th round Shanahan pick, that he purposly ignored his potential and abilities and burried him on the depth chart, just so his rookie running back, who was still learning the ropes, could shine more brightly... along with that other running back Josh picked up in FA and also that Shanahan fullback/MLB 6th round holdover of course.

gunns
09-28-2010, 09:01 PM
Yes, because I'm the one attempting to prove that Brady and Warner's situations are comparable to Hillis'.

Oh God, I wish you realized how ridiculous that analogy is here.

And the bolded is why you deserve the face palm. I'm not surprised though because you have no reading comprehension skills except what you want to see or how you can twist it to your argument....of which there is none here but once again you've attempted to make it one. It merely pointed out there is nothing wrong with getting a chance because someone is hurt or makes a player any less talented because they got their chance that way. A lot of those players may have never been known if not for another getting hurt. But turn that into whatever you want. I'll give you this, you can be amusing.

Taco John
09-28-2010, 09:01 PM
Fine but your consipracy theory doesn't hold water.

Conspiracy theory? No idea what you're talking about. I don't think that there was any conspiring going on. Just a plenty of youthful pride and a gambling nature.

bowtown
09-28-2010, 09:04 PM
Conspiracy theory? No idea what you're talking about. I don't think that there was any conspiring going on. Just a plenty of youthful pride and a gambling nature.

Yes it would be a consipracy for Josh to purposly bury a talented RB soley because he was a 7th round pick from a previous regime and might conflict with his 1st round pick. And since you have absolutley no proof of it, it would also fall smack under the header of theory.

Taco John
09-28-2010, 09:06 PM
Yes it would be a consipracy for Josh to purposly bury a talented RB soley because he was a 7th round pick from a previous regime and might conflict with his 2st round pick. And since you have absolutley no proof of it, it would also fall smack under the header of theory.

CONSPIRACY!

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/2934/itsaconspiracy.jpg


LOL Ha!

bowtown
09-28-2010, 09:10 PM
CONSPIRACY!

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/2934/itsaconspiracy.jpg


LOL Ha!

Indeed.

Taco John
09-28-2010, 09:11 PM
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/9056/conspiracy1.gif

Popps
09-28-2010, 09:12 PM
I think Popps said it best:

Taco, I know you love that quote... but are you going to remind folks that we were literally pulling guys out of cell-phone huts at that time? We had a depleted roster and Shanahn was trotting Selvin Young (or some asshole) out there on one leg instead of giving Hillis carries.

Now, under those circumstances, of course he should be starting.

After we draft a 1st round RB who shows promise, and Hillis has trouble with his assignments... of course he shouldn't be starting.

Though, I would have been thrilled to see him as a 1-2 punch with Moreno. Problem seemed to be what it always had been for him... the coach didn't think he was capable.

Shanny... McDaniels and Mangina... none of them thought he was a starting RB, and really... none of them made him a starter in ANY capacity for long.

So, don't talk to me... talk to the 3 NFL coaches who didn't think he had what it took.

Taco John
09-28-2010, 09:16 PM
Taco, I know you love that quote... but are you going to remind folks that we were literally pulling guys out of cell-phone huts at that time? We had a depleted roster and Shanahn was trotting Selvin Young (or some a-hole) out there on one leg instead of giving Hillis carries.

Now, under those circumstances, of course he should be starting.

After we draft a 1st round RB who shows promise, and Hillis has trouble with his assignments... of course he shouldn't be starting.

Though, I would have been thrilled to see him as a 1-2 punch with Moreno. Problem seemed to be what it always had been for him... the coach didn't think he was capable.

Shanny... McDaniels and Mangina... none of them thought he was a starting RB, and really... none of them made him a starter in ANY capacity for long.

So, don't talk to me... talk to the 3 NFL coaches who didn't think he had what it took.


Yes, I do love that quote. It completely undermines your credibility in this discussion and makes everything you say a "emperor has no clothes" proposition. I mean just look at what you said now and what you said then. It's like night and day. You turned about face on what you said as though you never said it. Sort of like how you used to think that the defensive line was such a priority, and when Josh started putting his main focus on secondary and offense, you got quiet about the defensive line.

Popps
09-28-2010, 09:23 PM
Yes, I do love that quote. It completely undermines your credibility in this discussion

Really?

So, then... if we had Adrian Peterson and Chris Johnson on our rosters that year... should Hillis have started over them?

No?

O.K... so... if we were dragging guys off of UPS loading docks.... should have have started over THEM?

See the difference?

Your feigned confusion on my stance aside, Hillis was CLEARLY the best runner on our roster at that time. Oh, and... I think he's got great physical talent. I made that very clear.

It's like night and day. .

The only thing night and day are the situations.

If I was dying of thirst... I'd drink Budweiser. I'm not, so I drink other beer.

See how situations can play into decisions, brah?

Sort of like how you used to think that the defensive line was such a priority, and when Josh started putting his main focus on secondary and offense, you got quiet about the defensive line.

Quiet?

You mean... the defensive line that was completely re-tooled? You talking about the front seven that had all-new starters except in one position?
You talking about the D-line that got rid of scrubs like Engleberger? How about Elvis leading the league in sacks. You mean.... that pass-rush?

Sorry, did I say it wasn't important now and don't remember saying it?

Let's recap...

I said our D-line was ****. It was. Josh replaced every position in the front seven except one, and even that one played a different position.

Looks like I got what I wanted... or at least the start of what I wanted. Dumping dead weight like Engleberger was a gift in itself. (He's out of the league, I assume.)

Would I like to see us draft more DL help? Of course. Then again, we run a different system now, so our pass-rush (my biggest and longest-standing complaint) comes from our OLB's. Once Doom is back, I think we'll have one of the better pass-rushes in the league.

But, all that takes some simple math... and you're unlikely to do it. You're more likely to cut a few corners to make your story look how you want it to.
(Read: I hate Hillis and I have no interest in the front seven.)

Ray Finkle
09-28-2010, 09:28 PM
Here is the real question....

Are the Bears, 49ers, and Skins fans talking about B.L. in the same fashion?

Taco John
09-28-2010, 09:28 PM
Let's review:

This isn't Mike Alstott, folks. Hillis has legitimate starting RB vision and moves. He's big, so he's not going to look like Barry Sanders when he runs, but this isn't a plodding back. He's got excellent body-control and awareness. He uses his blockers (even if he has to knock them over) and doesn't force things when they're not there.

Again, I think it's all just great that he can catch, block, kick, cook, paint and any other skills he may have. But, I want to see this guy lining up for at least 1/3rd of our carries. After watching him last year, there is absolutely no acceptable excuse for not giving this guy 10-15 carries a game, or more.


Now it's "he was only worth starting because we were pulling guys out of Radio Shack."

By the way, have you seen our running back corps lately?

barryr
09-28-2010, 09:31 PM
Hillis spent more time falling over himself and making mistakes last season than any player on the team, yet somehow some believe McDaniels would be considered "smart" if he would have kept putting that guy in anyway or even starting him. What?

Arkie
09-28-2010, 09:32 PM
Browns fans are saying the same thing we were two years ago.

Start feeding him the ball on a regular basis. He is the type of guy who needs to gain momentum and wear the other team down with his constant bruising runs.

He inspires his team mates....while they might be standing around they see him pushing 2-3 guys another 2-3 yards....it makes them work a little harder the next play.....it's almost like a slap in the face...I missed my block but this guy is going to gain some yards, I better do more on the next play so I don't look like a total sissy.

Thank Harrison for his time and let him go to FA

Popps
09-28-2010, 09:32 PM
Let's review:




Now it's "he was only worth starting because we were pulling guys out of Radio Shack."

By the way, have you seen our running back corps lately?

He was clearly the best back on our roster when I made that statement, which wasn't saying much. I also think he benefited from our system. He's got physical talent.

Too bad he's never been able to put it together as a starter. Since he became a pro, 3 different coaches have seen enough to refuse to give him a starting gig.

I'm not seeing what they're seeing behind the scenes, so I'll defer to them.

As for our runners, Moreno has more long-term upside, imo. Agree or disagre. My ultimate hope would have been for Hillis to be able to split carries. But, McDaniels... who made other Shanahan players very productive... saw Hillis as incapable of handling his assignments. Just like the other two coaches he's had.

Not my fault, bro.

Popps
09-28-2010, 09:33 PM
I think around page 23, someone is going to win this argument. I just have a feeling we'll all agree.

Pony Boy
09-28-2010, 09:34 PM
Is this, in fact the dumbest post of the thread?


Survey says....


YES!

We have a winner!

So you enjoyed the powder-puff football we played inside the 5 yard line.

Taco John
09-28-2010, 09:39 PM
He was clearly the best back on our roster when I made that statement, which wasn't saying much. I also think he benefited from our system. He's got physical talent.

Too bad he's never been able to put it together as a starter. Since he became a pro, 3 different coaches have seen enough to refuse to give him a starting gig.

I'm not seeing what they're seeing behind the scenes, so I'll defer to them.

As for our runners, Moreno has more long-term upside, imo. Agree or disagre. My ultimate hope would have been for Hillis to be able to split carries. But, McDaniels... who made other Shanahan players very productive... saw Hillis as incapable of handling his assignments. Just like the other two coaches he's had.

Not my fault, bro.


Do you think that anybody is fooled into believing that you were making a comparison between Peyton Hillis and Tatum Bell? You made a very real comparison in that quote, and it was to Mike Alstott, an 11 year pro who amassed over 5000 yards rushing, 2000 yards receiving and a total of 71 Touchdowns. And your assessment then was that Peyton Hillis was BETTER than Alstott with a substantially higher talent ceiling.

I understand that you don't want to take any amount of accountability for what you said and want to play it off. The point is, you can't. All your explanations aren't doing much to help your case. It's not me that you're up against here: it's you.

Taco John
09-28-2010, 09:39 PM
I think around page 23, someone is going to win this argument. I just have a feeling we'll all agree.

LOL

I do love your sense of humor though... :clown:

Arkie
09-28-2010, 09:39 PM
News: Browns coach Eric Mangini said RB Peyton Hillis will remain the starter Week 4 against the Bengals regardless of whether Jerome Harrison is able to return from his thigh injury. Hillis had 22 carries for 144 yards and a touchdown Week 3 at Baltimore.
(CBS Sports)



Commence forum implosion...

He would have remained the starter under Shanahan too if he stayed healthy and our other backs came back that season. A 5.1 average on 120 carries is proof you need to just give him the rock. Shanny could see that after the first 60 carries like you saw back then.

Popps
09-28-2010, 09:41 PM
Do you think that anybody is fooled into believing that you were making a comparison between Peyton Hillis and Tatum Bell? .

Dude, who was our other option... quick... Andre Hall? Selvin Young?

They were all so awful, I can't even remember.

Oh, and for accuracy... Tatum Bell has done way more in his NFL career than Hillis, at this point.


My explanations are just simple reality, Taco.

Under one set of circumstances, one thing may be appropriate.

Under another, they may not.


But, you can keep pretending to be confused. I'm having fun with this.

Taco John
09-28-2010, 09:41 PM
He would have remained the starter under Shanahan too if he stayed healthy and our other backs came back that season. A 5.1 average on 120 carries is proof you need to just give him the rock. Shanny could see that after the first 60 carries like you did back then.

Yeah no kidding. What a suprise that when he was given a real opportunity to contribute, he picked up right where he left off the last time he was given a real opportunity.

Popps
09-28-2010, 09:42 PM
He would have remained the starter under Shanahan too if he stayed healthy and our other backs came back that season. A 5.1 average on 120 carries is proof you need to just give him the rock. Shanny could see that after the first 60 carries like you did back then.

Agree, he was clearly our best option to finish the 07 season and had he stayed healthy, we may have made the playoffs.

In fact, Shanahan might still be here if he stayed healthy. He was running extremely well.

Unfortunately, he was unable to hold a starting position after that. But, that's been his theme as a pro. We'll see how he does now. I wish him the best. I love watching the guy run. Wish he could have held onto a job here.

Popps
09-28-2010, 09:44 PM
Yeah no kidding. What a suprise that when he was given a real opportunity to contribute, he picked up right where he left off the last time he was given a real opportunity.

A real opportunity?

So... I guess we all just need to know why Josh singled him out as the one guy he wouldn't give a "real" opportunity?

Inquiring minds.

This should be good...

Pony Boy
09-28-2010, 09:47 PM
since today seems to be "what if" day

We would have also had a good chance with Brown in there right? He's a power guy after all.

Hell why stop there, if only we still had TD and Elway we would have won Sunday. Or if we had only kept Scheffler, he would have gotten behind all the LBs and scored every time!!!

:strong:

Ok so "what if" we had Tebow at QB and Hills in the backfield ...... Tebow options to Hillis, run, jump pass, or keeps himself...... unstoppable combination inside the 10.

Taco John
09-28-2010, 09:52 PM
A real opportunity?

So... I guess we all just need to know why Josh singled him out as the one guy he wouldn't give a "real" opportunity?

Inquiring minds.

This should be good...


It's like I said before. I wouldn't want my first pick overall in my professional career being shown up by the last pick overall from the previous regime. I'd love to know a better explination of why the demonstrably better runningback got buried while the one who has struggled with consistency and toughness got moved to the top of the depth chart ahead of everyone else before he had proven a thing. I mean, all things considered, Buckhalter has proven a better runningback than Moreno.

strafen
09-28-2010, 09:52 PM
A real opportunity?

So... I guess we all just need to know why Josh singled him out as the one guy he wouldn't give a "real" opportunity?

Inquiring minds.

This should be good...Scheffler, Royal, and Hillis were given little opportunities to succeed last year. You know that, but you just want to ignore the facts. It wasn't just Hillis being singled out...

Taco John
09-28-2010, 09:55 PM
Scheffler, Royal, and Hillis were given little opportunities to succeed last year. You know that, but you just want to ignore the facts. It wasn't just Hillis being singled out...

I wouldn't go this far. I don't make any claims about Scheffler or Royal other than the obvious that Shanahan was able to get more out of them than Josh has managed.

Popps
09-28-2010, 09:59 PM
Scheffler, Royal, and Hillis were given little opportunities to succeed last year. You know that, but you just want to ignore the facts. It wasn't just Hillis being singled out...

Royal is having a great season. McDaniels routinely praises him.
What about Kuper, Thomas, Williams, Doom, Bailey and other Shanny guys who have done well?

Gosh, I guess McDaniels just gave them a fair chance for some reason huh?

Popps
09-28-2010, 10:04 PM
It's like I said before. I wouldn't want my first pick overall in my professional career being shown up by the last pick overall from the previous regime. I'd love to know a better explination of why the demonstrably better runningback got buried while the one who has struggled with consistency and toughness got moved to the top of the depth chart ahead of everyone else before he had proven a thing. I mean, all things considered, Buckhalter has proven a better runningback than Moreno.

OK, so then to Josh, winning is secondary to his image? That's what you're saying.

But, why not just give Hillis a few carries instead of Buck?

You're saying that McD was so horrified of Hillis' tools that he wouldn't even let him see the field?

Had nothing to do with him screwing up a few times when given chances, huh?

strafen
09-28-2010, 10:05 PM
I wouldn't go this far. I don't make any claims about Scheffler or Royal other than the obvious that Shanahan was able to get more out of them than Josh has managed.Scheffler really didn't have a business with us after Mcdaniels took over.
There really isn't a spot for a catching TE.
Daniel Graham is one of two catching TE's on our team, and even then, we don't see him involved as much as you would see him in a WC offense.

Royal and Hillis were never involved in Mcdaniels offensive plans last year.
This year we've seen Royal involve like he should, and playing as good as he was in 2008.
I don't see why he wouldn't have performed in the same way last year, and the same goes for Hillis.
To say the reason they didn't play last year -as they should've- because of performance issues is a big crock...
McDaniels wanted to win with his own guys on offense and not have people say, well, he won because of Shanny guys on offense.
That's just my opinions based on McDaniels ego...

strafen
09-28-2010, 10:10 PM
OK, so then to Josh, winning is secondary to his image? That's what you're saying.

But, why not just give Hillis a few carries instead of Buck?

You're saying that McD was so horrified of Hillis' tools that he wouldn't even let him see the field?

Had nothing to do with him screwing up a few times when given chances, huh?
You, McDaniels and everybody else knew Hillis would've out-permormed Moreno. Mcdaniels didn't want any part of that.
Heck, he even gave Lamont freaking Jordan a better chance than Hillis.
Is that absurd or what?
Doesn't that tell you more than what you're really willing to admit?
Lamont freakin' Jordan was put in position to carry the ball more than Hillis, and Jordan sucks big time!
Are you going to tell me it was because Jordan was better?
Please!

Popps
09-28-2010, 10:11 PM
Now we're getting somewhere. McDaniels has no interest in winning. Got it.

I knew it!

strafen
09-28-2010, 10:13 PM
Now we're getting somewhere. McDaniels has no interest in winning. Got it.

I knew it!

Those are your words, man.
Nobody had said that but you...
Continue on...

Popps
09-28-2010, 10:14 PM
With this new info, I don't think we can rule out double reverse white on white racism.

Taco John
09-28-2010, 10:18 PM
OK, so then to Josh, winning is secondary to his image? That's what you're saying.

Not at all. Josh is a gambler, that's what I'm saying. Gamlers make moves because they think they'll win them. Gamblers aren't necessarily rational. It certainly wasn't rational to trade a first round pick in a deep draft for a nickle back in a shallow draft. But like I say, gamblers make moves because they think that they'll win them.


But, why not just give Hillis a few carries instead of Buck?

There's no excuse, right? I mean, that's what you said yourself: "there is absolutely no acceptable excuse for not giving this guy 10-15 carries a game, or more."


Had nothing to do with him screwing up a few times when given chances, huh?

Oh I think that those little "throw him in cold" errors are forgivable enough. Especially for a guy who is capable of ripping the Ravens defense for 140+ yards and a TD. I mean, the talent is clearly there for anyone to see, right? "This isn't Mike Alstott, folks. Hillis has legitimate starting RB vision and moves... He's got excellent body-control and awareness. He uses his blockers (even if he has to knock them over) and doesn't force things when they're not there."

Frankly, I think Occams Razor does the heavy lifting in this discussion.

Popps
09-28-2010, 10:25 PM
But Taco, why not give Hillis a chance? Why did Josh give other players a chance?

You and I agree he's got physical talent.

Why didn't Shanny? McDaniels or Mangini make him a starter?

If McD wants to win, why not with Hillis?

Whats the reason?

strafen
09-28-2010, 10:27 PM
But Taco, why not give Hillis a chance? Why did Josh give other players a chance?

You and I agree he's got physical talent.

Why didn't Shanny? McDaniels or Mangini make him a starter?

If McD wants to win, why not with Hillis?

Whats the reason?Knowshon Moreno

Florida_Bronco
09-28-2010, 10:30 PM
Ok, then how on earth are we having so much success passing the ball with no running game right now? Or better yet, why was Hillis our last option...right up there with a phone salesman...in 2008 when we were decimated at the position (under a completely different coach and with a completely different system)?

And conversely, shouldn't Cleveland be dominating now in the passing game since they have Hillis who is obviously the best fit for "our" systems?

The fact is, we are all guessing. Nobody knows why he wasn't looked upon as a fit here but the fact we all know is...he wasn't perceived that way. I always forget how much more we know than the coaches.

Because he's wrong. Josh doesn't run the Erhart-Perkins offense, and neither does Daboll, Mangini's OC.

Taco John
09-28-2010, 10:32 PM
But Taco, why not give Hillis a chance? Why did Josh give other players a chance?

You and I agree he's got physical talent.

Why didn't Shanny? McDaniels or Mangini make him a starter?

If McD wants to win, why not with Hillis?

Whats the reason?


Shanny did make him a starter (http://www.rotoworld.com/CONTENT/features/column.aspx?sport=NFl&columnid=77&articleid=31700). And so did Mangini (http://www.rototimes.com/nfl/player.php?tqid=7307&type=news&nid=79824). McDaniels is the only one who didn't make him a starter. The reason is simple: pride.

footstepsfrom#27
09-28-2010, 10:37 PM
Taco, just wondering...

Considering that 3 different coaches declined to make him a starter and he's only played when people in front of him were injured... what makes you know he's a "hard worker?"

Or a good teammate, for that matter?
Ummm...he's starting NOW so that's two coaches...I'd say a guy who comes in new on the roster and gets the starting job within 3 games has nothing to apologize for. You do realize that players taking advantage of another guy going down is how alot of NFL guys become starters in the first place right? Second, he was a rookie when he played here and got to start, and it's not like we have expectations that most 7th round rookies will start at all, let alone as rookies...so what's the complaint again?

Hillis just destroyed the Ravens defense. Can you tell me any back on our current roster could have done what he did on Sunday?

strafen
09-28-2010, 10:39 PM
You do realize that players taking advantage of another guy going down is how alot of NFL guys become starters in the first place right? Second, he was a rookie when he played here and got to start, and it's not like we have expectations that most 7th round rookies will start at all, let alone as rookies.

Hillis just destroyed the Ravens defense. Can you tell me any back on our current roster could have done what he did on Sunday?

/end thread... ^5

Popps
09-28-2010, 10:40 PM
You do realize that players taking advantage of another guy going down is how alot of NFL guys become starters in the first place right? Second, he was a rookie when he played here and got to start, and it's not like we have expectations that most 7th round rookies will start at all, let alone as rookies.

Hillis just destroyed the Ravens defense. Can you tell me any back on our current roster could have done what he did on Sunday?

What offensive line and blocking scheme would our back be using?

Taco John
09-28-2010, 10:41 PM
Because he's wrong. Josh doesn't run the Erhart-Perkins offense, and neither does Daboll, Mangini's OC.

They both run an Erhardt-Perkins base system introducing a twist that borrows from the West Coast philosophy in which short 3.5 yard passes are just as desireable as 3.5 yard runs. But the system is still Erhardt-Perkins at its core.

footstepsfrom#27
09-28-2010, 10:42 PM
Shanny did make him a starter (http://www.rotoworld.com/CONTENT/features/column.aspx?sport=NFl&columnid=77&articleid=31700). And so did Mangini (http://www.rototimes.com/nfl/player.php?tqid=7307&type=news&nid=79824). McDaniels is the only one who didn't make him a starter. The reason is simple: pride.
It's tough to argue with that because the guy performed in games when called on, which should be the bottom line. The guy's a mack truck and is there anyone who thinks he would not have scored on one of those runs Maroney got near the goal line against the Colts? Yet people are complaining about him getting hurt...eh, Moreno? Hello?

Wish Hillis the best in Cleveland.

Popps
09-28-2010, 10:42 PM
Shanny did make him a starter (http://www.rotoworld.com/CONTENT/features/column.aspx?sport=NFl&columnid=77&articleid=31700). And so did Mangini (http://www.rototimes.com/nfl/player.php?tqid=7307&type=news&nid=79824). McDaniels is the only one who didn't make him a starter. The reason is simple: pride.

Really? Shanahan made him a starter? Not at tailback. He was briefly a starter at FB before losing that job. Mangini didn't have him startig at either position.

Popps
09-28-2010, 10:44 PM
I just picked him up in my fantasy league and will start him
in honor of this conversation.

SoCalBronco
09-28-2010, 10:46 PM
I just picked him up in my fantasy league and will start him
in honor of this conversation.

I'll drink to that.

footstepsfrom#27
09-28-2010, 10:47 PM
What offensive line and blocking scheme would our back be using?
Plug in any current Bronco back on the Browns in that game.

Taco John
09-28-2010, 10:47 PM
I just picked him up in my fantasy league and will start him
in honor of this conversation.


Nonsense. You'll start him because you know he'll help you score points. :approve:

But good for you! I've been telling everyone I know to steal him in late rounds expecting 8-10 TDs out of him this season. Three down!

Taco John
09-28-2010, 10:48 PM
As usual it was real and it was fun... :)

But if you'll excuse me, I've got some Zerg to put a beating on before I hit the hay.

strafen
09-28-2010, 10:49 PM
I just picked him up in my fantasy league and will start him
in honor of this conversation.

Cheers! :thumbsup:

Popps
09-28-2010, 10:51 PM
Plug in any current Bronco back on the Browns in that game.

I didn't see the game but I did see Cleveland's first unit in the preseason. Their blocking was excellent. Vickers was destroying people. If Moreno had blocking like I saw in that game, he'd flourish.

strafen
09-28-2010, 10:54 PM
I didn't see the game but I did see Cleveland's first unit in the preseason. Their blocking was excellent. Vickers was destroying people. If Moreno had blocking like I saw in that game, he'd flourish.I was just about to say/predict that somebody would be praising the Browns OL. Lol! ROFL!

Popps
09-28-2010, 10:59 PM
I was just about to say/predict that somebody would be praising the Browns OL. Lol! ROFL!

They were very impressive the one game I watched.

Look at the results. That's not all Hillis.

Peyton would not be doing what he's doing with our current run blocking. Not even close.

footstepsfrom#27
09-28-2010, 11:36 PM
I didn't see the game but I did see Cleveland's first unit in the preseason. Their blocking was excellent. Vickers was destroying people. If Moreno had blocking like I saw in that game, he'd flourish.
It's been 18 games since anyone ran on the Ravens like Hillis did on Sunday. The last guy to gain 140+ on that defense? Adrian Peterson in Oct 2009. Moreno gained 39 yards in his game against them last year.

Cleveland's run game was very average till this last game BTW.

Boomhauer
09-28-2010, 11:37 PM
Really? Shanahan made him a starter? Not at tailback. He was briefly a starter at FB before losing that job. Mangini didn't have him startig at either position.

Are you talking about a different Hillis than the one that started at RB for the Broncos until tearing a hammy and was the starter for the Browns this week?

footstepsfrom#27
09-28-2010, 11:38 PM
They were very impressive the one game I watched.

Look at the results. That's not all Hillis.

Peyton would not be doing what he's doing with our current run blocking. Not even close.
With the state of this line, I don't disagree, but he'd be better than anything else we've seen so far this year, and he'd have scored on the goal line I bet in this last game against Indy...which means the result might have been different.

Popps
09-28-2010, 11:44 PM
Are you talking about a different Hillis than the one that started at RB for the Broncos until tearing a hammy and was the starter for the Browns this week?

All by injury.

Never by choice.

3 coaches had the option to make him a starting RB. When they had other choices... they never chose Hillis.

Hey, maybe they were all wrong... but there's a reason. That's no accident.

Hillis has a chance to make his case the rest of the season. I wish him the best of luck.

footstepsfrom#27
09-28-2010, 11:51 PM
All by injury.

Never by choice.

3 coaches had the option to make him a starting RB. When they had other choices... they never chose Hillis.

Hey, maybe they were all wrong... but there's a reason. That's no accident.

Hillis has a chance to make his case the rest of the season. I wish him the best of luck.
You keep saying this when it's false. Shanny didn't start him because he played fullback so how was he supposed to start at TB before we had injuries at the position? Then after we lost about 6 guys he plugged him in and VOILA!...he proves he can carry the ball. You're holding it against him because he was a 7th round rookie playing another position and the coach didn't jump all over him right off the bat to start? TD didn't start much of his time in college either...so what?

Two guys have gained 140 plus on the Ravens in the last year...AP and Hillis. What else matters?

DivineLegion
09-29-2010, 12:09 AM
Week 10 Browns sneak by with 86 yards against the Ravens
Week 11 Browns run for 131 on the Lions
Week 12 Browns manage 58 on the Bengals
Week 13 Browns put up 115 on the Chargers
Week 14 Browns post 171 on the Steelers (With Palamalu)
Week 15 Browns get 89 yards on the Vikings with
Week 16 Browns slam the Raiders with 164 yards rushing (That same Raiders D that held the Broncos a week previous to 80 yards rushing at home in a must win. Lets not forget this is also the same line that Hillis ran behind minus an injured Ryan Harris)
Week 17 Browns finnish the season with 214 yards rushing against the Jaguars.



If you don't think that Line was good at run blocking last season just take a look at what they were doing the second half when that line started clicking. I'm pretty sure they were one of the top rushing teams in the league last year though the last 8 games of the 09 season. Peyton is a good kid and I wish him luck but if you have good blocking in front of you anyone can look like an all pro. Example: LT is averaging 5.3 behind a very good run blocking offensive line in NY. His past two seasons with the Chargers he averaged 3.3, and 3.8 behind a very poor pass blocking offensive line. Same guy diffrent line...You decide.

footstepsfrom#27
09-29-2010, 12:36 AM
Week 10 Browns sneak by with 86 yards against the Ravens
Week 11 Browns run for 131 on the Lions
Week 12 Browns manage 58 on the Bengals
Week 13 Browns put up 115 on the Chargers
Week 14 Browns post 171 on the Steelers (With Palamalu)
Week 15 Browns get 89 yards on the Vikings with
Week 16 Browns slam the Raiders with 164 yards rushing (That same Raiders D that held the Broncos a week previous to 80 yards rushing at home in a must win. Lets not forget this is also the same line that Hillis ran behind minus an injured Ryan Harris)
Week 17 Browns finnish the season with 214 yards rushing against the Jaguars.



If you don't think that Line was good at run blocking last season just take a look at what they were doing the second half when that line started clicking. I'm pretty sure they were one of the top rushing teams in the league last year though the last 8 games of the 09 season.
They averaged 128 a game during that stretch, slightly worse than the 130 they finished with and good for 8th in the league. This year through three games they rank 11th. Minus Hillis last game against the Ravens they got about 90 yards on the ground and were shut out. Clearly he's a difference maker and to deny it is silly.

broncocalijohn
09-29-2010, 01:41 AM
I do still believe that Hillis didn't get a fair chance here. I'm pretty sure the coaches saw something I didn't, but I still say give him the carries and lets see what happens. Oh well, he's not here anymore, time to move on.

we are never moving on!!!!! The hillis crusade will continue. Unlike JHNS and strafen (drag queen), I wont be buying a rival jersey because a player left. More he kicks ass, the better us Hillisites will look better and better and Popps will look like the turncoat he is.
Now onto the 10th page.

driver
09-29-2010, 03:24 AM
Shanny did make him a starter. There's a reason Josh didn't make him a starter though: didn't want his first round pick overall being shown up by Shanny's 7th rounder. And it would have happened too. Peyton Hillis runs harder than Moreno and is a better all around back than him.

/thread rocket boosters on

EGO the same problem our last H/C had?

tsiguy96
09-29-2010, 03:31 AM
2 things: hillis is a very good RB who when he gets his shot to run the ball typically makes the most of it. no NFL HC wants to give him a shot, and this is proven by 3 coaches having him as a 3rd string+ RB until they were forced to play him. why? who knows, but its how it is.

when they do play him though, he is a beast. not sure why mcdaniels wouldnt given him more of a shot to run the ball besides the 5-6 carries he had last year.

driver
09-29-2010, 03:46 AM
[QUOTE=Popps;2951696]He was clearly the best back on our roster when I made that statement, which wasn't saying much. I also think he benefited from our system. He's got physical talent.

Too bad he's never been able to put it together as a starter. Since he became a pro, 3 different coaches have seen enough to refuse to give him a starting gig.

I'm not seeing what they're seeing behind the scenes, so I'll defer to them.

As for our runners, Moreno has more long-term upside, imo. Agree or disagre. My ultimate hope would have been for Hillis to be able to split carries. But, McDaniels... who made other Shanahan players very productive... saw Hillis as incapable of handling his assignments. Just like the other two coaches he's had.

Might be Shanny's bug-a-boo about practice you don't practice well you don't start.
A lot of players are like that they don't have good practices but put them in a game and look out. They're called gamers.
As for Moreno I watched that draft, I was floored when they took him so high in the first round, he's a avg good back but certainly not worth that high a pick.

Missouribronc
09-29-2010, 04:49 AM
So you enjoyed the powder-puff football we played inside the 5 yard line.

Remember when Hillis was powering over people in short yardage last year in Denver?

3-1-PHI 16 (11:07) 22-P.Hillis up the middle to PHI 16 for no gain (50-W.Witherspoon, 54-J.Trotter).

Man, if we just had Hillis when we played Philadelphia last year....

ColoradoDarin
09-29-2010, 04:51 AM
Shanny did make him a starter (http://www.rotoworld.com/CONTENT/features/column.aspx?sport=NFl&columnid=77&articleid=31700). And so did Mangini (http://www.rototimes.com/nfl/player.php?tqid=7307&type=news&nid=79824). McDaniels is the only one who didn't make him a starter. The reason is simple: pride

Well, either pride, or we managed to keep other RBs healthy.

To review, 3 HC think so much of Hillis that they bury him on their depth chart. 2 HC have all their other RBs go down to injury before they give Hillis a shot. The other HC didn't have all his other RBs get injured. TJ, this isn't all about McD, it's about 2 other HC and their injury situations forcing them to put Hillis on the field.

Hillis only gets his chances when all other options are exhausted. Maybe he's one of those Jake Plummer type players where they don't care about practice or look bad there, whatever, but they can turn it on during games?

strafen
09-29-2010, 05:53 AM
we are never moving on!!!!! The hillis haters will continue. Unlike broncocalimoron and MVPlaya, I wont be buying a rival jersey because a player left. More he kicks ass, the better us Hillisites will look better and better and Popps will look like the turncoat he is.
Now onto the 10th page.

:strong:

TonyR
09-29-2010, 05:56 AM
I'd love to know a better explination of why the demonstrably better runningback got buried while the one who has struggled with consistency and toughness got moved to the top of the depth chart ahead of everyone else before he had proven a thing.

Apparently you missed post #162 which contains a few explanations which are both better and more plausible than yours.

bowtown
09-29-2010, 06:46 AM
Apparently you missed post #162 which contains a few explanations which are both better and more plausible than yours.

His thoughtful rebuttal to that was a tin foil hat pic.

Also, I haven't heard anyone discuss the fact that we also had another 1st round pick last year that we used on an OLB. So based on Taco's favorite theory, "The Gambler" McDaniels must have also leap frogged him right up the depth chart last year to starter in order to save face. Oh wait, Ayers didn't start at all last year? Well that's probably because there was a better guy on the roster that Josh brought in or maybe a real high round talent leftover from the last regime. Oh what, it was Mario Haggan, the 7th round draft pick that Shanahan pulled off the Buffalo ST scrap heap? Well he must be quite the OLB then. WHAT, he is not even an OLB by trade? So let me get this straight... Kenny Rodgers drafted a player in the 1st round and then started a 7th round holdover from the last regime out of position over him? Interesting.

TonyR
09-29-2010, 07:38 AM
Also, I haven't heard anyone discuss the fact that...

Great points, good post. You certainly won't hear Taco discuss this since it destroys his joke of a theory.

Mogulseeker
09-29-2010, 07:52 AM
where's the pic of darth vader screaming NOOOOO!!

http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/

Taco John
09-29-2010, 08:01 AM
Apparently you missed post #162 which contains a few explanations which are both better and more plausible than yours.


I didn't miss that. I thought his complicated reaches were pretty well handled by occam. I mean, it could be any number of those fanciful reaches, or it could be the simplest thing. I'm going for the simplest thing.

Tombstone RJ
09-29-2010, 08:03 AM
http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/

Muchas Gracias :approve:

Taco John
09-29-2010, 08:04 AM
His thoughtful rebuttal to that was a tin foil hat pic.

Also, I haven't heard anyone discuss the fact that we also had another 1st round pick last year that we used on an OLB. So based on Taco's favorite theory, "The Gambler" McDaniels must have also leap frogged him right up the depth chart last year to starter in order to save face. Oh wait, Ayers didn't start at all last year? Well that's probably because there was a better guy on the roster that Josh brought in or maybe a real high round talent leftover from the last regime. Oh what, it was Mario Haggan, the 7th round draft pick that Shanahan pulled off the Buffalo ST scrap heap? Well he must be quite the OLB then. WHAT, he is not even an OLB by trade? So let me get this straight... Kenny Rodgers drafted a player in the 1st round and then started a 7th round holdover from the last regime out of position over him? Interesting.

Yeah, see... He goes for another complicated and convoluted point that has nothing to do with the position or unique situation, and tries to find complications where there are none. Hell, I doubt Josh even gives much feedback on the defensive starters. His thing is offense. He probably leaves that to Wink.

2KBack
09-29-2010, 08:10 AM
I didn't miss that. I thought his complicated reaches were pretty well handled by occam. I mean, it could be any number of those fanciful reaches, or it could be the simplest thing. I'm going for the simplest thing.

If you're going with Occam, then the explanation is simple Moreno was the better back in practice.

bowtown
09-29-2010, 08:13 AM
Yeah, see... He goes for another complicated and convoluted point that has nothing to do with the position or unique situation, and tries to find complications where there are none. Hell, I doubt Josh even gives much feedback on the defensive starters. His thing is offense. He probably leaves that to Wink.

Actually Nolan was his D coordinator last year and he quit because Josh insisted on having too much control over the D. Remember?

There is absolutely no evidence to back up your theory, in fact there is plenty of evidence that suggests the exact opposite. Yet you just keep making up excuses and scenarios to try and justify it. It's impressive.

lostknight
09-29-2010, 08:17 AM
Never ascribe to malice what can be better described by stupidity.

Josh simply didn't know/care/want what Hillis brought. He wanted Brady Quinn, trusting in his innate ability to find looser and make decent QB's of them.

Josh doesn't care about running the ball. He doesn't have the discipline to do it even when it starts out not working - outside of the first series, we rushed exactly once in all of those failed red zones last week. He also doesn't have a system that is favorable for running backs - period. Moreno or Hillis.

The retrospective hate on Hillis is amusing though - and another example of Dove Valley marching orders at work. Hillis was used as a purely FB, at which Larsen was better early on with Shanahan. It wasn't until Shanny was forced to use him as a pass catching threat (which he excelled at), or as a RB (which he excelled at) that he came alive. Why? He's not a prototypical FB. Larsen did it better.

That being said, at least one of the failed rushes last week appears to be due to Larsen blocking the wrong man.

bowtown
09-29-2010, 08:22 AM
Never ascribe to malice what can be better described by stupidity.

Josh simply didn't know/care/want what Hillis brought. He wanted Brady Quinn, trusting in his innate ability to find looser and make decent QB's of them.



Nope, that was one of my scenarios. Taco has already deemed it fanciful and convoluted. Try again.

bowtown
09-29-2010, 08:23 AM
If you're going with Occam, then the explanation is simple Moreno was the better back in practice.

Fanciful.

Alright, my point is made. I'll stop.

go_broncos
09-29-2010, 08:27 AM
I want Hillis back in this team..
Bowlen..pls make it happen..He will resolve all our short yardage issues.

Tombstone RJ
09-29-2010, 08:27 AM
Never ascribe to malice what can be better described by stupidity.

Josh simply didn't know/care/want what Hillis brought. He wanted Brady Quinn, trusting in his innate ability to find looser and make decent QB's of them.

Josh doesn't care about running the ball. He doesn't have the discipline to do it even when it starts out not working - outside of the first series, we rushed exactly once in all of those failed red zones last week. He also doesn't have a system that is favorable for running backs - period. Moreno or Hillis.

The retrospective hate on Hillis is amusing though - and another example of Dove Valley marching orders at work. Hillis was used as a purely FB, at which Larsen was better early on with Shanahan. It wasn't until Shanny was forced to use him as a pass catching threat (which he excelled at), or as a RB (which he excelled at) that he came alive. Why? He's not a prototypical FB. Larsen did it better.

That being said, at least one of the failed rushes last week appears to be due to Larsen blocking the wrong man.

Nice starry bra...

misturanderson
09-29-2010, 09:11 AM
I want Hillis back in this team..
Bowlen..pls make it happen..He will resolve all our short yardage issues.
Week 1
3-2-DEN 44 (4:28) 8-K.Orton pass incomplete short right to 22-P.Hillis. Hit him in the hands.

Week 2
2-2-OAK 2 (6:42) 22-P.Hillis left guard to OAK 1 for 1 yard (Team).

3-1-OAK 1 (6:02) 22-P.Hillis up the middle to OAK 1 for no gain (Team).

Week 16
3-1-PHI 16 (11:07) 22-P.Hillis up the middle to PHI 16 for no gain (50-W.Witherspoon, 54-J.Trotter).

You're absolutely right. In the 4 short yardage situations last year that he had a shot at (outside of cleanup time against KC) he was a beast at picking up the yardage.

24champ
09-29-2010, 09:21 AM
Yeah, he was a rookie, and he eventually did start.

He is the perfect hybrid FB, and he would definitely still be here if Shanahan was still the coach.

The trade didn't make sense at the time, and it looks absolutely horrible now

No he actually isn't. I recall Shanahan benched Hillis in favor of our current FB Larsen. Anyone know what the primary job of a fullback is? Blocking...Hillis wasn't great at blocking because he wasn't smart enough to know his assignments.

Steve Sewell
09-29-2010, 09:28 AM
Mangini >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> McDummy

This is obvious now.

Popps
09-29-2010, 09:30 AM
I didn't miss that. I thought his complicated reaches were pretty well handled by occam. I mean, it could be any number of those fanciful reaches, or it could be the simplest thing. I'm going for the simplest thing.

Dude, no one has put forth a bigger reach on this thread than yourself.

The notion that McD would purposely sabotage his own success by randomly picking out ONE ex-Shanahan player to persecute is loony-bin material.

It's funny as hell... so I'm encouraging you, but it really is loony-bin stuff. I'm assuming you don't really believe it, because you're not a dumb guy.

Even if you just said... "McD didn't recognize how awesome Hillis' Tools were,".... that would be more plausible.


But, again... 3 head coaches have declined to give him starting positions when given the chance, and only used him when forced to by injury. No big deal, maybe they all missed the boat.

But, this idea that for some reason... despite numerous examples to the contrary, McDaniels wanted to sabotage his own team is really tinfoil-hat stuff.

Popps
09-29-2010, 09:31 AM
No he actually isn't. I recall Shanahan benched Hillis in favor of our current FB Larsen. Anyone know what the primary job of a fullback is? Blocking...Hillis wasn't great at blocking because he wasn't smart enough to know his assignments.

Shanahan benched Hillis for Larsen....

McD did the same...

Mangini made Vickers the starter over him....


3 coaches, no starting job when given the choice.

Taco John
09-29-2010, 11:02 AM
Dude, no one has put forth a bigger reach on this thread than yourself.

The notion that McD would purposely sabotage his own success by randomly picking out ONE ex-Shanahan player to persecute is loony-bin material.

I've never made the case that McD would "purposely" sabotage his own success. Just that he's a gambler, and this was a gamble that he thought he'd win, but ended up losing (at least thus far). I don't believe Josh ever makes a move that he thinks is going to fail.