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jossjeff
09-27-2010, 11:28 AM
Ok lets get real, as a Raiderfan I despise the Broncos. As mulefans you despise the Raiders.

Its the way the world should be.....

However as football fans I believe we can all recognize great talent when we see it.

Point is - not only do I believe Aso is the best corner in this league I believe that when it is all said and done he is among the greatest to play the position. And I mean ever.

He absolutely crushed arguably the best receiver in the NFL yesterday.

Revis? Please....dude makes picks cause he is picked on. Teams rarely even look in Asos direction and for good reason.

Fitzgerald was a non factor excluding a PI call. How many other players can shut down a talent like that?

Shame he plays for this sorry bunch of candy asses in Oakland but it is what it is.

If our kicker wasnt slipping on that puddle of piss running down his leg we would be 2-1.

Yet woulda shoulda coulda....

Whatever.......

Agree, disagree, give me an argument.....

Thoughts?

Popps
09-27-2010, 11:30 AM
He's too good to be a Raider. Too bad he'll rot there his whole career.

Sort of like Tim Brown... a talent wasted.

Doggcow
09-27-2010, 11:30 AM
you mad brah?

crush17
09-27-2010, 11:32 AM
Cool topic.
Belongs on a RAIDER BOARD.

Rohirrim
09-27-2010, 11:33 AM
Champ is better.

tsiguy96
09-27-2010, 11:37 AM
historically, champ is far, far better.

however now, even though the oakland defense sucks, the best way ive heard it is hes so good, he basically makes the game 10 vs 10. which the rest of the team proceeds to lose.

mkporter
09-27-2010, 11:42 AM
Ok lets get real, as a Raiderfan I despise the Broncos. As mulefans you despise the Raiders.

Its the way the world should be.....

However as football fans I believe we can all recognize great talent when we see it.

Point is - not only do I believe Aso is the best corner in this league I believe that when it is all said and done he is among the greatest to play the position. And I mean ever.

He absolutely crushed arguably the best receiver in the NFL yesterday.

Revis? Please....dude makes picks cause he is picked on. Teams rarely even look in Asos direction and for good reason.

Fitzgerald was a non factor excluding a PI call. How many other players can shut down a talent like that?

Shame he plays for this sorry bunch of candy asses in Oakland but it is what it is.

If our kicker wasnt slipping on that puddle of piss running down his leg we would be 2-1.

Yet woulda shoulda coulda....

Whatever.......

Agree, disagree, give me an argument.....

Thoughts?

Derek Anderson.
/Thread

broncswin
09-27-2010, 11:44 AM
He puts that together for 10 years and then we can talk...the guy is real good, lets see how he handles himself year in and year out.....till then, we know he is not on the long term level of Champ.

broncswin
09-27-2010, 11:45 AM
Derek Anderson.
/Thread

lol...was just getting ready to post that...there is a reason Fitz was like the plague in FF

*WARHORSE*
09-27-2010, 11:48 AM
Ok lets get real, as a Raiderfan I despise the Broncos. As mulefans you despise the Raiders.

Its the way the world should be.....

However as football fans I believe we can all recognize great talent when we see it.

Point is - not only do I believe Aso is the best corner in this league I believe that when it is all said and done he is among the greatest to play the position. And I mean ever.

He absolutely crushed arguably the best receiver in the NFL yesterday.

Revis? Please....dude makes picks cause he is picked on. Teams rarely even look in Asos direction and for good reason.

Fitzgerald was a non factor excluding a PI call. How many other players can shut down a talent like that?

Shame he plays for this sorry bunch of candy asses in Oakland but it is what it is.

If our kicker wasnt slipping on that puddle of piss running down his leg we would be 2-1.

Yet woulda shoulda coulda....

Whatever.......

Agree, disagree, give me an argument.....

Thoughts?


:spit:

You lost me at the 'ok lets get real' part........


A faderfan getting real.......impossible.


But just to set you straight...........Gumby Asamoah would be an all world megastar on any other team in the NFL.




Chew on that for a tat.Ha!

Champagne Powder
09-27-2010, 11:50 AM
Asomugha has only 11 interceptions in seven seasons and two games. Explain that to me, Raider fan.

ColoradoDarin
09-27-2010, 11:52 AM
Derek Anderson.
/Thread

Rep.

Hey, you let us know when Aso gets to half of what a career Champ has.

jossjeff
09-27-2010, 12:10 PM
Rep.

Hey, you let us know when Aso gets to half of what a career Champ has.

Jesus dude....

Like has been said.

Dude doesnt have the stats cause dude is avoided like the black plague back in the day.

He takes away half the field, ultimate sign of respect.

Taking nothing away from Champ, great player for a long time. But I'll take Nnamdi any and every day over him.

ColoradoDarin
09-27-2010, 12:14 PM
Jesus dude....

Like has been said.

Dude doesnt have the stats cause dude is avoided like the black plague back in the day.

He takes away half the field, ultimate sign of respect.

Taking nothing away from Champ, great player for a long time. But I'll take Nnamdi any and every day over him.

yeah yeah, and Champ has always been challenged, even when he was in his prime?

eddie mac
09-27-2010, 12:15 PM
If Nnamdi actually takes away half the field on his own surely 10 Raider defenders can stop teams in the other half???

jossjeff
09-27-2010, 12:21 PM
yeah yeah, and Champ has always been challenged, even when he was in his prime?

Hey not arguing over here....

There was a time IMHO when Champ was the best cover corner in the NFL.

That time however, is gone.

Think it may have been the best trade the rat ever made, Portis for Champ. I'd do that ten times over.

Doesn't change the topic of this thread, doesnt make a difference to me in terms of the first post.

Still think Nnamdi is a freaking great cover corner stuck in a horrible situation, doesnt mean I think Champ sucks. Actually think highly of him.

Still would take Nnamdi over Champ both of them in their primes over and over

ColoradoDarin
09-27-2010, 12:24 PM
Hey not arguing over here....

There was a time IMHO when Champ was the best cover corner in the NFL.

That time however, is gone.

Think it may have been the best trade the rat ever made, Portis for Champ. I'd do that ten times over.

Doesn't change the topic of this thread, doesnt make a difference to me in terms of the first post.

Still think Nnamdi is a freaking great cover corner stuck in a horrible situation, doesnt mean I think Champ sucks. Actually think highly of him.

Still would take Nnamdi over Champ both of them in their primes over and over

Eh, I was taking exception to your original assertion:

I believe that when it is all said and done he is among the greatest to play the position. And I mean ever.

Champ's career >>>>> Aso's career. Champ's first 7 years >>>>> Aso's

Peoples Champ
09-27-2010, 12:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P-Zc-APZAA&feature=related


Someone needs to find a video of that 2005-06 season where champ had 10 picks, and he was only thrown at like 40 times, one of the best seasons as a corner ever,

Until Nnamdi has a season like that, i still gotta say champ is better and would rather have him.

Peoples Champ
09-27-2010, 12:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzUhbJZaGsE&feature=related

This is a bad quality video, but if you go to 2:20 mark its one of the best picks i have ever seen

JoRo
09-27-2010, 12:32 PM
Derek Anderson.
/Thread

Seconded. Derek Anderson has literally made my pickup of Larry Fitz worth next to nothing in fantasy, I hate him every time I see the Cards game tickers.

Peoples Champ
09-27-2010, 12:33 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98r1UQ6jY0M&NR=1

Its the 2 minute mark here

Peoples Champ
09-27-2010, 12:36 PM
Seconded. Derek Anderson has literally made my pickup of Larry Fitz worth next to nothing in fantasy, I hate him every time I see the Cards game tickers.


Ya even the Rams kinda held Fitzgerald in Check

Mogulseeker
09-27-2010, 12:40 PM
Hey not arguing over here....

There was a time IMHO when Champ was the best cover corner in the NFL.

That time however, is gone.

Think it may have been the best trade the rat ever made, Portis for Champ. I'd do that ten times over.

Doesn't change the topic of this thread, doesnt make a difference to me in terms of the first post.

Still think Nnamdi is a freaking great cover corner stuck in a horrible situation, doesnt mean I think Champ sucks. Actually think highly of him.

Still would take Nnamdi over Champ both of them in their primes over and over

Around 2004-2007, Champ might have been the best defensive player in the league.

Tom G
09-27-2010, 12:42 PM
Aso is not even the best CB the Raiders ever had. Willie Brown is.

HorseHead
09-27-2010, 12:46 PM
please Fed Ex me whatever it is you are smoking...

oubronco
09-27-2010, 12:46 PM
Assamuncha is good but he's not Champ good

orangenblue
09-27-2010, 01:18 PM
Ok lets get real, as a Raiderfan I despise the Broncos. As mulefans you despise the Raiders.

Its the way the world should be.....

However as football fans I believe we can all recognize great talent when we see it.

Point is - not only do I believe Aso is the best corner in this league I believe that when it is all said and done he is among the greatest to play the position. And I mean ever.

He absolutely crushed arguably the best receiver in the NFL yesterday.

Revis? Please....dude makes picks cause he is picked on. Teams rarely even look in Asos direction and for good reason.

Fitzgerald was a non factor excluding a PI call. How many other players can shut down a talent like that?

Shame he plays for this sorry bunch of candy asses in Oakland but it is what it is.

If our kicker wasnt slipping on that puddle of piss running down his leg we would be 2-1.

Yet woulda shoulda coulda....

Whatever.......

Agree, disagree, give me an argument.....

Thoughts?


Their QB is Derek Anderson for christs sake! nuff said

ColoradoBuff
09-27-2010, 01:21 PM
Aso. is no Champ!!!

Garcia Bronco
09-27-2010, 01:22 PM
Champ Bailey is still the best corner in this league...everyone else is second best.

Tombstone RJ
09-27-2010, 01:25 PM
Ok lets get real, as a Raiderfan I despise the Broncos. As mulefans you despise the Raiders.

Its the way the world should be.....

However as football fans I believe we can all recognize great talent when we see it.

Point is - not only do I believe Aso is the best corner in this league I believe that when it is all said and done he is among the greatest to play the position. And I mean ever.

He absolutely crushed arguably the best receiver in the NFL yesterday.

Revis? Please....dude makes picks cause he is picked on. Teams rarely even look in Asos direction and for good reason.

Fitzgerald was a non factor excluding a PI call. How many other players can shut down a talent like that?

Shame he plays for this sorry bunch of candy asses in Oakland but it is what it is.

If our kicker wasnt slipping on that puddle of piss running down his leg we would be 2-1.

Yet woulda shoulda coulda....

Whatever.......

Agree, disagree, give me an argument.....

Thoughts?

Well, there's no doubt the faiders are paying him like the greatest CB to ever play the game... for that much money, he should be able to line up behind center and matriculate the ball down the field...

WABronco
09-27-2010, 01:28 PM
Who are the raiders?

GoBroncos84
09-27-2010, 01:39 PM
I rank him 4th I'm the league right now. He's a hell of a player. I put champ, revis, and woodson over him. Career wise, champ is head and shoulders over him. No disrespect though. Very talented, plays the game the right way. Would love to have him on my team

DeuceOfClub
09-27-2010, 01:57 PM
Ok lets get real, ...

Raiders wins average 1996-2002 (seven years prior to drafting Asomugha): 8.6
Raiders wins average 2003-2009 (seven years after drafting Asomugha): 4.1

11 interceptions in 7+ years? seriously? ROFL!

vancejohnson82
09-27-2010, 02:10 PM
Champ is and was a better tackler as well....

Mountain Bronco
09-27-2010, 02:25 PM
He is a great player, but Fitgerald was rendered obsolete when Anderson became his QB, so it is hard to tell whay Nnamdi actually accomplished.

ScottXray
09-27-2010, 03:43 PM
Asa does not get picks because he is very very good, and the rest of Oaklands Secondary is .... something less (being kind). I wouldn't throw on him if I had the choice to throw elsewhere. so Number of picks is going to be low..

Different teams, different situations.

Asa at his best vs Champ at his best (5 years ago)......I'd take Champ, but Asa is a very close second. Would love to have both of them.

Unless the Raiders come out of their hole and start winning (read... Al is gone)
consistently he is going to have very little to show for his ability. Might make the pro bowl...but without playoff games and performance there, he will never make the hall. Champ might even without a SB win to his credit.

Sucks to be him AND be a raider.

OBF1
09-27-2010, 04:01 PM
This message is hidden because jossjeff is on your ignore list.

s0phr0syne
09-27-2010, 04:35 PM
Asomugha is obviously really really good. Better than Champ? Probably not. Honestly, even now, I think Champ is quite possibly the best CB in the league. I was starting to have my doubts, but the way he played Reggie Wayne yesterday solidified just how good he can be. In the modern era with the rules the way they are, and to shut down a receiver of that caliber with a quarterback of that stature is just unbelievable.

As for Aso, this might sound harsh, but to some extent he deserves to be unrecognized. No offense, but with the Raiders in the state they've been in for the last 10+ years, he was retarded to sign a long term deal with them, no matter how much they were paying him. IMO, he should have played out his franchise tag year and then bolted as an FA.

I think his greed (not some misplaced notion of Faider loyalty) kept him in Oakland where that FO is known to F**K up the market and overpay in certain instances. Sure, he got his money to set him up forever, but he lost his chance at true historical greatness. Just like the best player in college football on a losing team won't win the Heisman, it's not possible for Asomugha to really challenge the historical ranks of DBs stuck on that team.

extralife
09-27-2010, 04:44 PM
Asomugha has only 11 interceptions in seven seasons and two games. Explain that to me, Raider fan.

interceptions are an absolutely awful measure of a corner's ability and impact

Broncoman13
09-27-2010, 05:20 PM
Hey not arguing over here....

There was a time IMHO when Champ was the best cover corner in the NFL.

That time however, is gone.

Think it may have been the best trade the rat ever made, Portis for Champ. I'd do that ten times over.

Doesn't change the topic of this thread, doesnt make a difference to me in terms of the first post.

Still think Nnamdi is a freaking great cover corner stuck in a horrible situation, doesnt mean I think Champ sucks. Actually think highly of him.

Still would take Nnamdi over Champ both of them in their primes over and over



Interesting take and most people agree with that line of thinking. Simple fact though, the Broncos before the Champ Bailey trade were absolute beasts in the Redzone. We scored TDs something like 65% of the time. While Champ Bailey is probably the best Bronco defender ever, the simple truth is our offense never recovered after losing CP.

Hulamau
09-27-2010, 06:13 PM
Jesus dude....

Like has been said.

Dude doesnt have the stats cause dude is avoided like the black plague back in the day.

He takes away half the field, ultimate sign of respect.

Taking nothing away from Champ, great player for a long time. But I'll take Nnamdi any and every day over him.

Nnamdi is a great corner no arguments, but Champ in his prime ... no contest.

Nnamdi shut down Fitz yesterday as much because Oil-Derek Anderson wouldnt dare throw to him when he had other easier choices.

The reason no one throws to Nnamdi is not only becuse of his skill, but also because the Faders have never had a decent enough corner on the other side to force the opposing QB to make a choice! Why would they when youve got practice squad corners everywhere else? No reason at all why to challenge Nnamdi on occasion when the rest of the field is wide open and the opposing running backs are having a field day. :-)... :approve:

Hulamau
09-27-2010, 06:22 PM
If we could have had Nnamdi for the day next to Champ yesterday Mellonhead loses going away... No doubt same could be said for you guys if the Fade could have borrowed Champ yesterday to pair up with Nnamdi as well.

WolfpackGuy
09-27-2010, 06:25 PM
Interesting take and most people agree with that line of thinking. Simple fact though, the Broncos before the Champ Bailey trade were absolute beasts in the Redzone. We scored TDs something like 65% of the time. While Champ Bailey is probably the best Bronco defender ever, the simple truth is our offense never recovered after losing CP.

Agreed.

Great corners like Champ and Nnamdi are nice luxuries, but not a necessity to have a great defense. Especially in an increasingly passing friendly game.

I'd much rather have the lost offensive production than just have other teams go after the other DB's.

rmsanger
09-27-2010, 06:51 PM
sorry I'd visit Revis Island before Nnamdyland...

briane
09-27-2010, 07:03 PM
Champ is also one of the best tacklers I have ever seen.

Archer81
09-27-2010, 08:07 PM
Its a sad commentary that a raider fan comes to a Broncos board to seek validation for one of his team's players.


:Broncos:

dsmoot
09-27-2010, 08:15 PM
Jesus dude....

Like has been said.

Dude doesnt have the stats cause dude is avoided like the black plague back in the day.

He takes away half the field, ultimate sign of respect.

Taking nothing away from Champ, great player for a long time. But I'll take Nnamdi any and every day over him.

Joss,

Everything you are saying about Aso was being said about Champ at the same point in his career. Not to take ANYTHING away from recognizing him as a great talent. Greatness is defined over time. Many a player didn't get his due because he played for terrible teams. Louis Wright was a great player in his own right (not Champ, maybe not Aso) and many NFL WR's recognized him as being as good as Mel Blount. He goes unrecognized because his teams didn't win the big games and he was hidden in Denver. They didn't throw his way either, ask John Madden.

GoHAM
09-27-2010, 09:37 PM
Nnamdhi is a great talent, he's one of the top 10 CB's in the league for sure.

But... nobody really knows how good he is because he is the only true NFL talent in the Oakland secondary. So when faced with a 2nd string (for real NFL teams) CB or Nnamdhi (who has real talent) of course opposing teams are going to throw at the back up CB, or just run the ball.

Nobody challenges Nnamdhi because nobody has to.

Take a look at the Dallas game last year where McDaniels and Nolan forced Romo to throw at Champ... twice! What happened? Two pass defenses by Champ. When has Nnamdhi ever been challenged like that? Not ever. Because the Raiders suck and Nnamdhi is the only player in their secondary that has NFL starter caliber skill. Until Nnamdhi plays on a better team, we will never know how good he actually is.

Champagne Powder
09-27-2010, 11:10 PM
interceptions are an absolutely awful measure of a corner's ability and impact

I would disagree considering the all-time interception list is littered with names like Rod Woodson, Night Train Lane, Willie Brown, Lem Barney, Deion Sanders, Mel Blount, and Darrell Green.

I consider Asomugha an All-Pro and one of the elite players in the game, but the original poster is boasting that the Raiders corner might be the best ever.

If we are talking best ever, give me the greats that pick the ball off over a guy who doesn't touch the ball.

extralife
09-27-2010, 11:48 PM
For starters, teams no longer throw to good coverage guys very often, and the short passing game and rules that curb what DBs can do to receivers make for far less interceptions in the modern game than in past eras. And of course there are plenty of mediocre or bad corners that will get picks because 1, they are picked on by the opposing QB with great frequency, and 2, they gamble for the pick all the time and give up TDs and yards more often than they get them back. That doesn't make them good corners. Picks are also a greater reflection of a DBs ball skills and hands than they are a reflection of the things that actually make him good at what he does. And it's a bit of a random stat. Sometimes you don't get the bounces.

Broncos_OTM
09-28-2010, 12:37 AM
interceptions are an absolutely awful measure of a corner's ability and impact

Is it the end all be all, No. Is it a way to measure, Yes. I rule that # of interceptions will be allowed.

Champagne Powder
09-28-2010, 01:39 AM
For starters, teams no longer throw to good coverage guys very often, and the short passing game and rules that curb what DBs can do to receivers make for far less interceptions in the modern game than in past eras. And of course there are plenty of mediocre or bad corners that will get picks because 1, they are picked on by the opposing QB with great frequency, and 2, they gamble for the pick all the time and give up TDs and yards more often than they get them back. That doesn't make them good corners. Picks are also a greater reflection of a DBs ball skills and hands than they are a reflection of the things that actually make him good at what he does. And it's a bit of a random stat. Sometimes you don't get the bounces.

I agree that there is luck involved when it comes to picks, but last year's two top corners in interceptions, Charles Woodson and Asante Samuel, were both established standouts at the position and are universally respected among NFL insiders.

Ball skills and hands are a part of playing defensive back. Turnovers are game changing plays and their impact shouldn't be minimized.

Rock Chalk
09-28-2010, 05:25 AM
sorry I'd visit Revis Island before Nnamdyland...

Revis is the most over-rated CB I can remember.

Put Revis on the Broncos without the luxury of that pass rush the Jet's have and you will find him burnt toast.

Champ or Nmandi on the Jets right now, would look 10 times better than Revis.

Rock Chalk
09-28-2010, 05:26 AM
Is it the end all be all, No. Is it a way to measure, Yes. I rule that # of interceptions will be allowed.

Interception % would be a better way to judge. How many interceptions divided by how many times thrown at. Since Asomugha, Bailey, Revis and other elite corners are not targeted nearly as much, they have far fewer opportunities for picks.

BroncosSR
09-28-2010, 06:15 AM
Champ has lost a step though... He gave up 2 crucial 3rd down passes, one for big yardage... He could have kept points off the board for the Colts...

Broncoman13
09-28-2010, 06:26 AM
Revis is the most over-rated CB I can remember.

Put Revis on the Broncos without the luxury of that pass rush the Jet's have and you will find him burnt toast.

Champ or Nmandi on the Jets right now, would look 10 times better than Revis.

Hahaha, the Jets pass rush is pretty average. Revis is the real deal. Not quite in the category of guys like Champ, Deion, or Green in their prime... but very close. The Jets pass rush is usually gimmicked by blitzes and it's usually a result of overload blitzes or "train" blitzes up the middle. You don't get away with that unless you have a very dynamic cover guy and Revis fits that bill.

Speaking of blitzes and such. Anybody watch the Packers game last night? You look at the blitz packages that Dom Capers puts together and how a guy like Charles Woodson can get to the QB and it makes you wish all the much more that we either had Dom or Wink would blitz more. I think the truth in the matter is that McD doesn't like to blitz. That very well may be why Dom Capers decided not to come here last year when McD took the job.

Champagne Powder
09-28-2010, 11:25 AM
Champ has lost a step though... He gave up 2 crucial 3rd down passes, one for big yardage... He could have kept points off the board for the Colts...

Champ is still a top 3-5 cornerback. This year Bailey and Revis are going to fight to make the Pro Bowl though. Asomugha, Leon Hall and Brandon Flowers are going to all give them a run for their money.

Rabb
09-28-2010, 11:33 AM
Champ has lost a step though... He gave up 2 crucial 3rd down passes, one for big yardage... He could have kept points off the board for the Colts...

I know, he should have ran over to the opposite side of the field to help Cox out right?

I swear some of you don't even watch football.

2KBack
09-28-2010, 12:16 PM
I know, he should have ran over to the opposite side of the field to help Cox out right?

I swear some of you don't even watch football.

Um champ did give up those passes at the beginning of the game. i love Champ, but he got burnt a couple times on that drive, it's fair to say it.

BroncosSR
09-28-2010, 12:25 PM
Champ is still a top 3-5 cornerback. This year Bailey and Revis are going to fight to make the Pro Bowl though. Asomugha, Leon Hall and Brandon Flowers are going to all give them a run for their money.

100% agree.

Rabb
09-28-2010, 12:25 PM
Um champ did give up those passes at the beginning of the game. i love Champ, but he got burnt a couple times on that drive, it's fair to say it.

not doubting that he gave a couple up, but Champ wasn't the reason that Denver gave up the TDs

unless you count them throwing at the other side because of the rookie being caused by Champ, then yeah

BroncosSR
09-28-2010, 12:34 PM
not doubting that he gave a couple up, but Champ wasn't the reason that Denver gave up the TDs

unless you count them throwing at the other side because of the rookie being caused by Champ, then yeah

Dude, read what I said. I said Champ gave up 2 crucial 3rd down passes, one of them being for big yardage... Had he not given up those, the Colts would have punted on that drive, hence keeping points off the board...

It might not be us that's not watching football...

2KBack
09-28-2010, 12:38 PM
not doubting that he gave a couple up, but Champ wasn't the reason that Denver gave up the TDs

unless you count them throwing at the other side because of the rookie being caused by Champ, then yeah

Nah, he was just mentioning that he had a slow start I think, which he did. The rest of the game Manning almost avoided him though. I honestly think it comes so easy to champ that he kinda has to get shaken out of a zone sometimes. Complete a couple passes on him and he wakes up and shuts you down.

Rabb
09-28-2010, 12:42 PM
Nah, he was just mentioning that he had a slow start I think, which he did. The rest of the game Manning almost avoided him though. I honestly think it comes so easy to champ that he kinda has to get shaken out of a zone sometimes. Complete a couple passes on him and he wakes up and shuts you down.

I agree with that