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View Full Version : McDaniels Press Conference right now...


crush17
09-21-2010, 11:05 AM
http://www.denverbroncos.com/multimedia/videos/Head-Coach-Josh-McDaniels-Press-Conference/ce74c27d-2eda-4ce9-93c8-b555fe417151

Los Broncos
09-21-2010, 11:06 AM
Since I don't have sound at work can someone break it down later, thanks.

baja
09-21-2010, 11:09 AM
not on for me

crush17
09-21-2010, 11:09 AM
He's been very emotional on the verge of tears, as well as crying some throughout the conference.

Broncos will wear his number on a decal on their helmets

Moment of silence at the Colts game

Will be leaving his locker the way it was throughout the season

Players all gathered today to talk about it

Out of respect to Kenny and his family, no questions answered about the circumstances involving his death

Kenny had been around the facility recently and showed zero signs of depression, was his usual self, eating with the team, etc

Made the decision to get him surgery together and understood reasons to be on IR and was going through rehab just as planned

gyldenlove
09-21-2010, 11:09 AM
He is obviously very emotional about it.

crush17
09-21-2010, 11:10 AM
No indications of trouble to anyone. Smiling, no issues as far as anyone knew.

Team has been very quiet and somber throughout the day. Respectful of one another, eager to support each other and help Kenny's family and son.

No word on any sort of memorial just yet

crush17
09-21-2010, 11:11 AM
Difficult to move on, but that's what they have to do. Understands everyone will handle differently, but they are going to continue to get ready for the Colts

crush17
09-21-2010, 11:13 AM
Has had professionals talk to the team about the situation and counselors will be on hand throughout process.

Talked briefly about dealing with the death of a teammate in NE, and about how the Broncos have gone through this with DWill and Nash

crush17
09-21-2010, 11:15 AM
Wesley Woodyard talking now.

gyldenlove
09-21-2010, 11:19 AM
Woodyard is on, he has been crying before.

Talked about Mckinley having the team over for a cookout, being very respectful of the other players and everybody around him.

gyldenlove
09-21-2010, 11:19 AM
This team is going to play with a special fire and passion on Sunday, you can bet on that.

crush17
09-21-2010, 11:21 AM
Bronco Nation... we lost one of ours this week.
No matter how you look at it, he was a Denver Bronco and with as much love and dedication as most of us have to this team, it sure feels like we all lost a brother as well.

RIP Kenny. You will always be missed, but never forgotten.

Los Broncos
09-21-2010, 11:21 AM
Thanks for the breakdown guys, watching WW and McD made me want to cry.

Very sad...

epicSocialism4tw
09-21-2010, 11:25 AM
No indications of trouble to anyone. Smiling, no issues as far as anyone knew.

Team has been very quiet and somber throughout the day. Respectful of one another, eager to support each other and help Kenny's family and son.

No word on any sort of memorial just yet

I didnt know he had a son.

Not cool.

supermanhr9
09-21-2010, 11:29 AM
So sad. I've seen this before, my brother-in-law's brother killed himself about 3 years ago, and it was the same sort of thing, no signs, seemed happy, no one had a clue. Worst of it is, everyone in that locker room is soul searching, trying to remember if there was anything they should have noticed. People who really want to kill themselves do it. They don't leave notes, they don't half ass it. They just want to leave, end their inner battles. Unfortunately, this leaves tons of un-resolved issues and the beginning of so many inner battles with the loved ones left behind and is why suicide is the most selfish act a person can do. RIP on one hand, but shame on you in the other. I hope no one took this the wrong way, but I have seen suicide affect my family twice, do not have a soft side for it and am dissapointed in McKinley for doing this to his team and family.

epicSocialism4tw
09-21-2010, 11:35 AM
So sad. I've seen this before, my brother-in-law's brother killed himself about 3 years ago, and it was the same sort of thing, no signs, seemed happy, no one had a clue. Worst of it is, everyone in that locker room is soul searching, trying to remember if there was anything they should have noticed. People who really want to kill themselves do it. They don't leave notes, they don't half ass it. They just want to leave, end their inner battles. Unfortunately, this leaves tons of un-resolved issues and the beginning of so many inner battles with the loved ones left behind and is why suicide is the most selfish act a person can do. RIP on one hand, but shame on you in the other. I hope no one took this the wrong way, but I have seen suicide affect my family twice, do not have a soft side for it and am dissapointed in McKinley for doing this to his team and family.

You are right.

His child will feel the loss the deepest, and that isnt cool.

OABB
09-21-2010, 11:36 AM
Suicide is what it is. It's the persons choice. It is selfish, no doubt, but not up to any of us to place judgement on him.

He made his choice.

I do however feel for that kid. He is the one that all our compassion and sympathy should be extended to. He has been dealt a terrible hand, and will never get over this loss. Here's to hoping he gets proper support and doesn't buy into depression being chemical and popping brain damaging pills.

I hope he is honest in his pain and gets help from an actual therapist that will listen to him and take the time necessary to help him deal with his very real pain.

I'm sorry for that little guy...

Beantown Bronco
09-21-2010, 11:36 AM
Good. I'm glad someone else said what I was thinking. Thank you, Superman.

55CrushEm
09-21-2010, 11:39 AM
So sad. I've seen this before, my brother-in-law's brother killed himself about 3 years ago, and it was the same sort of thing, no signs, seemed happy, no one had a clue. Worst of it is, everyone in that locker room is soul searching, trying to remember if there was anything they should have noticed. People who really want to kill themselves do it. They don't leave notes, they don't half ass it. They just want to leave, end their inner battles. Unfortunately, this leaves tons of un-resolved issues and the beginning of so many inner battles with the loved ones left behind and is why suicide is the most selfish act a person can do. RIP on one hand, but shame on you in the other. I hope no one took this the wrong way, but I have seen suicide affect my family twice, do not have a soft side for it and am dissapointed in McKinley for doing this to his team and family.

Yes. I feel sad for Kenny, and no one can understand the pain he must have been going through to want to kill himself. But for the simple fact he left a child behind.....I'll never understand it.

epicSocialism4tw
09-21-2010, 11:41 AM
Suicide is what it is. It's the persons choice. It is selfish, no doubt, but not up to any of us to place judgement on him.

He made his choice.

I do however feel for that kid. He is the one that all our compassion and sympathy should be extended to. He has been dealt a terrible hand, and will never get over this loss. Here's to hoping he gets proper support and doesn't buy into depression being chemical and popping brain damaging pills.

I hope he is honest in his pain and gets help from an actual therapist that will listen to him and take the time necessary to help him deal with his very real pain.

I'm sorry for that little guy...

When you commit suicide, you set off a bomb in your circle of friends and loved ones. You have no idea how it will effect them, and it could end up ruining a significant portion of any or all of their lives.

You certainly invite judgment when you do such a thing to so many people with such a selfish act.

SonOfLe-loLang
09-21-2010, 11:42 AM
So sad. I've seen this before, my brother-in-law's brother killed himself about 3 years ago, and it was the same sort of thing, no signs, seemed happy, no one had a clue. Worst of it is, everyone in that locker room is soul searching, trying to remember if there was anything they should have noticed. People who really want to kill themselves do it. They don't leave notes, they don't half ass it. They just want to leave, end their inner battles. Unfortunately, this leaves tons of un-resolved issues and the beginning of so many inner battles with the loved ones left behind and is why suicide is the most selfish act a person can do. RIP on one hand, but shame on you in the other. I hope no one took this the wrong way, but I have seen suicide affect my family twice, do not have a soft side for it and am dissapointed in McKinley for doing this to his team and family.

Suicide can be perceived as selfish, but until youve felt suicidal, you have no right to judge another. People who say **** like this do not understand.

epicSocialism4tw
09-21-2010, 11:47 AM
Suicide can be perceived as selfish, but until youve felt suicidal, you have no right to judge another. People who say **** like this do not understand.

It deserves judgment. It deserves scorn. Why? Because it is so unbelievably selfish, and that sort of behavior should be discouraged in the extreme. There's not a worse thing you could do to a person.

Beantown Bronco
09-21-2010, 11:51 AM
Suicide can be perceived as selfish, but until youve felt suicidal, you have no right to judge another. People who say **** like this do not understand.

Ummmm, not to get too far off track...but this is just asinine logic. I've never felt the need to murder or rape someone....but you bet your *** I will judge those that have murdered and/or raped. And I believe I have every right to. Suicide is no different.....ESPECIALLY with children involved (but even when they're not....there's always family/friends/etc that are affected)

SonOfLe-loLang
09-21-2010, 11:51 AM
It deserves judgment. It deserves scorn. Why? Because it is so unbelievably selfish, and that sort of behavior should be discouraged in the extreme.

As someone who has been there and still struggles with things, this is completely ignorant. First off, we're all built differently, we are chemically different, we all have different backgrounds that shape us. Certain people, like myself, are susceptible to feeling lost and filled with pain. You get stuck in a moment and lose sight of the world. Its not fun and completely unrelatable to people who have never been there. So keep your ****ty opinions to yourself. Of course it should be discouraged, but when you shoot your ****ing self in the head, thats not a cry for help. That's someone in such deep pain you cannot imagine. And its not a choice he's making with sane mind, he's mentally ill.

SonOfLe-loLang
09-21-2010, 11:52 AM
Ummmm, not to get too far off track...but this is just asinine logic. I've never felt the need to murder or rape someone....but you bet your *** I will judge those that have murdered and/or raped. And I believe I have every right to. Suicide is no different.....ESPECIALLY with children involved (but even when they're not....there's always family/friends/etc that are affected)

Yes, its sad, but do not compare suicide with rape and murder.

baja
09-21-2010, 11:53 AM
Good. I'm glad someone else said what I was thinking. Thank you, Superman.

I think everyone it thinking that along with compassion for the level of pain that would make killing yourself look like the best option.

Beantown Bronco
09-21-2010, 11:54 AM
Yes, its sad, but do not compare suicide with rape and murder.

Because you say so? Why do you make the rules? Suicide is murder of one-self. Do you think his son feels any better that his daddy was his own murderer? At least if someone else did it and was caught, he could get answers and closure. As it stands now, he has nothing.

SonOfLe-loLang
09-21-2010, 11:55 AM
Because you say so? Why do you make the rules? Suicide is murder of one-self. Do you think his son feels any better that his daddy was his own murderer? At least if someone else did it and was caught, he could get answers and closure. As it stands now, he has nothing.

Whatever, im not having this argument. Lets just leave it at that its sad.

epicSocialism4tw
09-21-2010, 11:57 AM
As someone who has been there and still struggles with things, this is completely ignorant. First off, we're all built differently, we are chemically different, we all have different backgrounds that shape us. Certain people, like myself, are susceptible to feeling lost and filled with pain. You get stuck in a moment and lose sight of the world. Its not fun and completely unrelatable to people who have never been there. So keep your ****ty opinions to yourself. Of course it should be discouraged, but when you shoot your ****ing self in the head, thats not a cry for help. That's someone in such deep pain you cannot imagine. And its not a choice he's making with sane mind, he's mentally ill.

I think its a rather prideful and selfish choice.

Everyone goes through times of failure, times of disillusionment, but to turn those feelings into a permanent action that kills you and takes big chunks out of the hearts of those that love you is a mistake every time. Its an irreversable mistake. Its one that your friends and loved ones will grow more and more ticked off about over time and that they'll never resolve.

If you feel suicidal, instead of stabbing your loved ones in the heart, why dont you talk to them about it?

crush17
09-21-2010, 11:57 AM
The most important thing to take from this discussion, is that no matter how bad someone thinks things are, they can always get better.

Its hard to pass judgment, because sometimes people don't have mentors, parents, or friends who really take the time to drive that message home early and often.

I can honestly say that if it weren't for my parents always telling me that things will always get better eventually, and that taking your own life is not ever worth it, I might have gone down this path earlier in my own life.

BroncosinDC
09-21-2010, 11:57 AM
Suicide can be perceived as selfish, but until youve felt suicidal, you have no right to judge another. People who say **** like this do not understand.

I'm still pretty pissed at my brother for killing himself, whatever it's what he wanted. Who am I to tell you what to do with your life, but it is selfish. No way around it, whatever your inner demons when people love you and care about you...peacing out is selfish.

Especially when like Kenny and my brother you are always smiling and appear to be happy as can be.

I don't know though this just hits me harder than most I guess. I wish Kenny and his family the best, but know its just going to suck for them. No way around it.

SonOfLe-loLang
09-21-2010, 11:58 AM
I think its a rather prideful and selfish choice.

Everyone goes through times of failure, times of disillusionment, but to turn those feelings into a permanent action that kills you and takes big chunks out of the hearts of those that love you is a mistake every time. Its an irreversable mistake. Its one that your friends and loved ones will grow more and more ticked off about over time and that they'll never resolve.

If you feel suicidal, instead of stabbing your loved ones in the heart, why dont you talk to them about it?

I understand why you say this and its tragic and not fair to everyone involved, but until youve been there, trust me, TRUST ME, you cannot understand.

SonOfLe-loLang
09-21-2010, 11:59 AM
I'm still pretty pissed at my brother for killing himself, whatever it's what he wanted. Who am I to tell you what to do with your life, but it is selfish. No way around it, whatever your inner demons when people love you and care about you...peacing out is selfish.

Especially when like Kenny and my brother you are always smiling and appear to be happy as can be.

I don't know though this just hits me harder than most I guess. I wish Kenny and his family the best, but know its just going to suck for them. No way around it.

Again, you guys are looking at this like they are thinking normally and lucidly. Its a mental illness.

Beantown Bronco
09-21-2010, 12:01 PM
sonoflelolang,

What you're missing is that it's a selfish act regardless of mental capacity/illness/etc. Whatever you have going on in your head does not change the definition of "selfish".

SonOfLe-loLang
09-21-2010, 12:02 PM
sonoflelolang,

What you're missing is that it's a selfish act regardless of mental capacity/illness/etc. Whatever you have going on in your head does not change the definition of "selfish".

Whatever, pretty much any act in the entire world is selfish. I'm not having this argument.

Beantown Bronco
09-21-2010, 12:06 PM
Whatever, pretty much any act in the entire world is selfish. I'm not having this argument.

...and yet you keep trying to get in the last word, claiming "only you" can understand because supposedly "only you" have been there. Yet we've had at least 3 other people in this thread tell their first hand accounts of friends and family members who have committed suicide, and they are all on the other side of the fence from you. THESE are the folks affected by these selfish acts. And you are telling them that they are ignorant and don't know what they are talking about....at least try to see it from their side.

SonOfLe-loLang
09-21-2010, 12:07 PM
...and yet you keep trying to get in the last word, claiming "only you" can understand because supposedly "only you" have been there. Yet we've had at least 3 other people in this thread tell their first hand accounts of friends and family members who have committed suicide, and they are all on the other side of the fence from you. THESE are the folks affected by these selfish acts. And you are telling them that they are ignorant and don't know what they are talking about....at least try to see it from their side.

Yes, and these people HAVENT TRIED TO COMMIT SUICIDE. I said i understand why you think that, and its sad, I'm just telling you thats its not some flippant choice thats made. You make a serious attempt (not a cry for help) its coming from a place thats darker than you can ever imagine. So sure, call it selfish, but jesus christ, you dont understand what its like.

BroncosinDC
09-21-2010, 12:08 PM
Again, you guys are looking at this like they are thinking normally and lucidly. Its a mental illness.

Well no ****.

No rational person takes a shotgun to the head. You think I like being woken up to a call from my baby sister because she is crying, or having to console my parents. Whatever goes through someones mind in that moment is not a rational thought. But it is an absolutly terrible choice.

I'll assume you have been "sucidal" but obviously something stopped that, and your family wether they knew about it or not is thankful that you didn't go through with it. I don't know you man but I'm glad you didn't.

SonOfLe-loLang
09-21-2010, 12:12 PM
Well no ****.

No rational person takes a shotgun to the head. You think I like being woken up to a call from my baby sister because she is crying, or having to console my parents. Whatever goes through someones mind in that moment is not a rational thought. But it is an absolutly terrible choice.

I'll assume you have been "sucidal" but obviously something stopped that, and your family wether they knew about it or not is thankful that you didn't go through with it. I don't know you man but I'm glad you didn't.

I appreciate that and ive learned how to deal with it best i can. Its a horrible choice, i completely agree with you and its terrible to ever be in that place, i just get annoyed when people make it seem like its a choice similar to selecting what kind of peanut butter to buy.

epicSocialism4tw
09-21-2010, 12:14 PM
I understand why you say this and its tragic and not fair to everyone involved, but until youve been there, trust me, TRUST ME, you cannot understand.

Remember, you are not unique in your feelings. Not that they arent important or that you arent important, because I believe that God made you both unique and important in many ways. Thats what I believe to be true.

However, you are not the first person to feel alienated, confused, disillusioned, or ashamed. Everybody goes through that. For me, those are the times when I become very much open to listening to God in a contrite way.

One time I felt like I had let God down in a major way at work, and I retreated to a back room to collect my thoughts and regroup and I couldnt do it. I sat down on a chair and put my heads in my hands. I closed my eyes and apologized to God over and over again. When I opened my eyes (which were aimed down at the floor between my feet), I saw a picture on the floor there right between my feet. It literally was a picture of a man who had collapsed under the weight of life, and there Jesus was holding him up. Its a famous picture that I had never seen before. I cried. God loves us very much, and is more than happy to cradle us like a child in those dark times. Why was the picture there? I know why. In a fashion typical of my God, it was an extremely personal, tender moment that he chose to use to reach through the cosmos to deliver me a hand up from the floor.

Here's the picture:
http://abundantlrc.net/Jesus%20Holding%20Man.jpg

Swedish Extrovert
09-21-2010, 12:17 PM
This is a very interesting conversation... I happen to know BroncosinDC personally, but I can't say that I agree with him 100 percent. Obviously when Alex did it it was a tough time for all of us that knew him. But, there are demons that a suicidal person has to face every single day. I can say that it is ALL internal - you're not thinking of other people, and there's no way out. That's the only kind of person who does this. It could even be someone elses fault... but people don't kill themselves over another person. They do it when they are tortured by something, and they feel there is no possible escape.

Kaylore
09-21-2010, 12:24 PM
McDaniels is really choked up about this. I've seen so little rattle McD and it's very sad and humbling to see him brought to tears.

Mr.Meanie
09-21-2010, 12:25 PM
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/8686/tebowsaves.jpg

BroncosinDC
09-21-2010, 12:31 PM
This is a very interesting conversation... I happen to know BroncosinDC personally, but I can't say that I agree with him 100 percent. Obviously when Alex did it it was a tough time for all of us that knew him. But, there are demons that a suicidal person has to face every single day. I can say that it is ALL internal - you're not thinking of other people, and there's no way out. That's the only kind of person who does this. It could even be someone elses fault... but people don't kill themselves over another person. They do it when they are tortured by something, and they feel there is no possible escape.

Yeah and it just sucks. Nothing else to say about what the living go through.

I do know this though, the Denver Broncos have been a big part of the coping for myself and my family. Sunday was Alex's birthday and that win meant more to me than anyother. I even framed his autographed Brian Griese jersey as a menorial of sorts. Probably the only person with a framed Griese jersey.

I'll never know what makes someone sucidal, I do know having been so close to it that the moment of blocking out all the love people share for you is the worst moment that could possibly exist. I can't comprehend that level of darkness. I can only live my life, wishing my phone would have rang, or that I had replied to his last "finally free" facebook message in the 20 minutes before he ended it.

It is a combination of events a whirlwind of **** basically that has someone end this way, with my Brother I can point to several hitting all at once, adding in a hefty amount of booze and a phone battery running out on some girls cell phone in the middle of a fight.

All I'm saying is that whatever blocks someone from seeing that life is worth living, sucks. And the word selfish might not be the right one to use to describe that emotion but, this site will bleep out the other words I've used to describe it.

Kenny's family and friends should be in your thoughts, they are going through hell right now.

OABB
09-21-2010, 12:34 PM
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/8686/tebowsaves.jpg

I know you are gonna get destroyed for this, but it was nice to have a little chuckle in the midst of all of this.


rep. Well done.

hookemhess
09-21-2010, 12:37 PM
Anyone know if the McD presser will be replayed?

crush17
09-21-2010, 12:40 PM
subtle. uncalled for, but subtle.

hookemhess
09-21-2010, 12:45 PM
Anyone know if the McD presser will be replayed?

It's up on www.denverbroncos.com now.

footstepsfrom#27
09-21-2010, 12:55 PM
So sad. I've seen this before, my brother-in-law's brother killed himself about 3 years ago, and it was the same sort of thing, no signs, seemed happy, no one had a clue. Worst of it is, everyone in that locker room is soul searching, trying to remember if there was anything they should have noticed. People who really want to kill themselves do it. They don't leave notes, they don't half ass it. They just want to leave, end their inner battles. Unfortunately, this leaves tons of un-resolved issues and the beginning of so many inner battles with the loved ones left behind and is why suicide is the most selfish act a person can do. RIP on one hand, but shame on you in the other. I hope no one took this the wrong way, but I have seen suicide affect my family twice, do not have a soft side for it and am dissapointed in McKinley for doing this to his team and family.
As someone who has been through this and burried one I was extremely close to, I can only say you have to let go of thinking like this and forgive. Nobody knows what level of hopelessness someone else feels or the ability they had within them to fight off the world and keep persevering in the face of despair. We all have the same judge.

hookemhess
09-21-2010, 12:59 PM
Damn, watching Woodyard choke up is tougher than McD.

Chris
09-21-2010, 01:00 PM
This is a very interesting conversation... I happen to know BroncosinDC personally, but I can't say that I agree with him 100 percent. Obviously when Alex did it it was a tough time for all of us that knew him. But, there are demons that a suicidal person has to face every single day. I can say that it is ALL internal - you're not thinking of other people, and there's no way out. That's the only kind of person who does this. It could even be someone elses fault... but people don't kill themselves over another person. They do it when they are tortured by something, and they feel there is no possible escape.

This is how some mental illness works. You become sucked into a grey world. You are not sad. You are emotionless (hence no red flags). You lose your sense of self sometimes... this is why something can become less real... death can become less real. You lose your sense of consequence.

cutthemdown
09-21-2010, 01:08 PM
This team is going to play with a special fire and passion on Sunday, you can bet on that.

Or it can screw up concentration etc etc. You never know exactly how a tragedy will effect something like a game. Could be positive, as in let's do this for our fallen friend, or could be bad as in I couldn't concentrate etc etc.

Most importantly let's hope his family can get over the guilt people always feel when a close friend or family member decides to call it quits in life.

I have some experience with this type of thing unfortunately. It's one of those things were you really go back over in your head little details, trying to find something you missed, something you could have done. Sometimes makes it very hard to concentrate.

Like you said though I'm sure they will be emotional. Hard to say which way that takes the team.

DomCasual
09-21-2010, 01:09 PM
I think its a rather prideful and selfish choice.

Everyone goes through times of failure, times of disillusionment, but to turn those feelings into a permanent action that kills you and takes big chunks out of the hearts of those that love you is a mistake every time. Its an irreversable mistake. Its one that your friends and loved ones will grow more and more ticked off about over time and that they'll never resolve.

If you feel suicidal, instead of stabbing your loved ones in the heart, why dont you talk to them about it?

Okay, just playing the devil's advocate here. I don't really have a pony in this race.

But...

What if you feel that your continued existence will only hurt those around you? What if you're so filled with self-loathing that you cannon possibly understand how anyone wouldn't be better off if you just disappeared?

We're not talking about a rational process, obviously. Someone might think, "Sure I have a son. And that son will be better off in life with the void that is my loss than he would be to have me screwing up his life."

It breaks my heart that people get to that point. But they do.

cutthemdown
09-21-2010, 01:13 PM
As someone who has been through this and burried one I was extremely close to, I can only say you have to let go of thinking like this and forgive. Nobody knows what level of hopelessness someone else feels or the ability they had within them to fight off the world and keep persevering in the face of despair. We all have the same judge.

Ya I agree. Not going to chime in on his post even though I feel he isn't seeing it exactly clear. It's so hard when someone you love decides to end there own life. The anger you feel towards them is so real. To understand though you have to have empathy and realize the other person was so lost things like family and friends could not over come the feeling of hopelessness that suicidal people feel.

In fact the decide they are doing friends and family a favor. They feel world and everyone they love will be so much better off without them.

Please to anyone on the board ever feeling that depressed...Don't be afraid to reach out. Lot's of people here at the Mane that will help out a brother if they can. Sometimes when you have no hope, all you have to do is take a chance and you will find there are people out there who will understand and try and help.

cutthemdown
09-21-2010, 01:16 PM
Okay, just playing the devil's advocate here. I don't really have a pony in this race.

But...

What if you feel that your continued existence will only hurt those around you? What if you're so filled with self-loathing that you cannon possibly understand how anyone wouldn't be better off if you just disappeared?

We're not talking about a rational process, obviously. Someone might think, "Sure I have a son. And that son will be better off in life with the void that is my loss than he would be to have me screwing up his life."

It breaks my heart that people get to that point. But they do.

Being someone who got really depressed about 15 yrs ago I wanted to say you hit the nail on the head. It's not about being selfish and taking easy way out. You start to convince yourself that you can't be helped, that people are better off without you, that no one wants to be drug down with your problems, that you aren't right in the head and not like other people etc etc. It goes on and on.

Very sad for Broncos players. They sure have dealt with a lot of death lately. Makes Moreno not having break away speed seem sort of unimportant.

Rohirrim
09-21-2010, 01:21 PM
Okay, just playing the devil's advocate here. I don't really have a pony in this race.

But...

What if you feel that your continued existence will only hurt those around you? What if you're so filled with self-loathing that you cannon possibly understand how anyone wouldn't be better off if you just disappeared?

We're not talking about a rational process, obviously. Someone might think, "Sure I have a son. And that son will be better off in life with the void that is my loss than he would be to have me screwing up his life."

It breaks my heart that people get to that point. But they do.

What concerns me is, was he taking any medications? Some of the **** they are peddling these days...

mr007
09-21-2010, 01:55 PM
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/8686/tebowsaves.jpg

Am I the only one that has the urge to make this my avatar?

Rock Chalk
09-21-2010, 01:59 PM
This is so heart wrenching to watch.

Man ****, you know you still gotta go on with your life but how do you do that in any kind of normal manner as a football coach, or player?

I think we've all lost friends here through one cause or another, getting over it is never easy.

Mr.Meanie
09-21-2010, 02:00 PM
Am I the only one that has the urge to make this my avatar?

By all means! You have His blessing

denvernut1
09-21-2010, 02:43 PM
da sad part of all this is dat we know what happens to people who do this...i so sad to hear this after my uncle did the same last august.. im still thinking why n then this im a die hard bronco fan since 86.. n after all the crap now this ....wow im sadden for his family n the team ....but this was a choice he choose...n im christian n sad ...god bless him n his family n da broncos ...

DomCasual
09-21-2010, 02:44 PM
da sad part of all this is dat we know what happens to people who do this...i so sad to hear this after my uncle did the same last august.. im still thinking why n then this im a die hard bronco fan since 86.. n after all the crap now this ....wow im sadden for his family n the team ....but this was a choice he choose...n im christian n sad ...god bless him n his family n da broncos ...

That's sweet of you to say, Josina.

baja
09-21-2010, 05:04 PM
My respect for Josh McDaniels grows with each challenge he rises to.

Loved his genuineness in handling the press conference and the clear dispair for the young man McKinley that passed and his family.

I feel like the Broncos are a true family, something that I feel has been missing for a few years.

Tragedy has shown good things have come to Dove Valley.

gyldenlove
09-21-2010, 05:15 PM
Or it can screw up concentration etc etc. You never know exactly how a tragedy will effect something like a game. Could be positive, as in let's do this for our fallen friend, or could be bad as in I couldn't concentrate etc etc.

Most importantly let's hope his family can get over the guilt people always feel when a close friend or family member decides to call it quits in life.

I have some experience with this type of thing unfortunately. It's one of those things were you really go back over in your head little details, trying to find something you missed, something you could have done. Sometimes makes it very hard to concentrate.

Like you said though I'm sure they will be emotional. Hard to say which way that takes the team.

Looking at how hard Mcdaniels has taken it he will be looking to take that hurt out on someone and my guess is it will be the Colts. There is a lot of emotion going around Dove Valley right now, and the 2nd stage of grief according to Kubler-Ross is anger, that should be about where most of the Broncos will be on Sunday.

Dedhed
09-21-2010, 08:11 PM
Wow, there have been some pitiful holier than thou attempts at proselytizing and self congratulations on the Mane before, but this thread is utterly despicable.

RIP Kenny

OABB
09-21-2010, 08:27 PM
What concerns me is, was he taking any medications? Some of the **** they are peddling these days...

Well said. I've touched on this before here and got ripped apart. The fact is antidepressants not only don't work, butthey can actually make the patient worse. Depression is a spiritual illness, not a physical one. Treating depression is a long process of self honesty and facing demons, there is no happy pill that will fix it.

Gutless Drunk
09-21-2010, 08:42 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_16135786

Broncos receiver Kenny McKinley was suffering from depression after undergoing knee surgery four weeks ago, according to a report released Tuesday night by the Arapahoe County Sheriff's office.

The department ruled that McKinley's death was a suicide caused by a self-inflicted gunshot wound to his head while lying in his bed at his Aurora home. An autopsy performed by the Arapahoe County coroner's office Tuesday morning confirmed McKinley died Monday afternoon from a gunshot wound to the head.

The sheriff's office report, quoting an investigator at the scene, said McKinley had made statements shortly after the surgery "that he should just kill himself."

The report added McKinley didn't know what he would do if he couldn't play football because football was all he knew.

McKinley broke most of the significant receiving records at South Carolina previously held by Sterling Sharpe, but making it in the NFL had been a challenge since being selected by the Broncos in the fifth round of the 2009 draft.

McKinley, 23, played sparingly last year as a rookie and was placed on season-ending injured reserve with his knee problem just before training camp.

The report said McKinley was found in his upstairs bedroom with a pillow over his head. The gun, a black, semiautomatic Taurus, was inside the pillow case and McKinley's right hand was just below the gun's grip. The TV in the bedroom was on the NFL Network. Police said the second floor was "very smoky" and the attending officer "could smell a strong odor of marijuana." A bag of leafy substance was found in a shoe box that was in the bedroom.

The report also said McKinley had been taking 500 milligrams of Naproxen, an over the counter pain reliever.

Police responded to a call from a female who was hysterical, saying her friend (McKinley) just shot himself, saying he had the gun in his hand and blood was coming out.

Among those listed who presented information were former Broncos' running back Cory Boyd, who was McKinley's roommate at the University of South Carolina and a close friend, Boyd's wife Brittany, and several females. Brittany Boyd and Shantell Smith, both of Aurora, and a small child were outside McKinley's residence when officers arrived. The child was McKinley's son, Keon.

An interview with Smith revealed she and Brittany Boyd picked up McKinley and his son at the Denver International Airport on Sunday night. The two women stayed at McKinley's house with his son while McKinley went to an unknown female's home. He did not return to his home until 7 a.m. Monday.

The report said officers were told Shantell Smith and Brittany Boyd went with a person to get lunch at 12:15 p.m. When they returned they went upstairs to McKinley's room and saw a sheet pulled over his body.

They decided to let him sleep, but then both women went upstairs around 3 p.m. and pulled the sheet down from his body.

Investigators with the Arapahoe County sheriff's office said no suicide note was left by McKinley.

mkporter
09-21-2010, 09:24 PM
Well said. I've touched on this before here and got ripped apart. The fact is antidepressants not only don't work, butthey can actually make the patient worse. Depression is a spiritual illness, not a physical one. Treating depression is a long process of self honesty and facing demons, there is no happy pill that will fix it.

I recommend avoiding broad generalizations about depression. No doubt about it, anti-depressants are serious drugs, and it is foolish how they are given out like candy to anyone that feels a little down. That said, there are a lot of people that have been helped, saved even, because of their existence. There are many causes and types of depression, and they aren't all "spiritual." As you noted, these drugs can make depression worse in some people, which means you acknowledge there is a chemically controlled component to depression. There are people who just are off in the chemical make-up in their brain such that feeling okay is an uphill battle. Not every person suffering from depression just needs to face their demons. It ain't that simple.

Dagmar
09-21-2010, 09:31 PM
Well said. I've touched on this before here and got ripped apart. The fact is antidepressants not only don't work, butthey can actually make the patient worse. Depression is a spiritual illness, not a physical one. Treating depression is a long process of self honesty and facing demons, there is no happy pill that will fix it.

The strongest thing he was taking was Aleve. It was reported by Lindsay Jones today.

Archer81
09-21-2010, 09:38 PM
da sad part of all this is dat we know what happens to people who do this...i so sad to hear this after my uncle did the same last august.. im still thinking why n then this im a die hard bronco fan since 86.. n after all the crap now this ....wow im sadden for his family n the team ....but this was a choice he choose...n im christian n sad ...god bless him n his family n da broncos ...


Im sorry you lost a family member.

But would it kill you to type out complete words and sentences? I should be greatful you didnt use ima...

As for Kenny, the kid will be missed. RIP.

:Broncos:

TheElusiveKyleOrton
09-21-2010, 09:51 PM
This is how some mental illness works. You become sucked into a grey world. You are not sad. You are emotionless (hence no red flags). You lose your sense of self sometimes... this is why something can become less real... death can become less real. You lose your sense of consequence.

This. And in many cases, your thinking is so distorted as to believing that your family will actually be better off without you in their life.

It's not a matter of not considering those around you. In many cases, that's all you're considering. You're just looking through a broken glass.

I've been there. It's a horrible place to be.

"wouldn't it just be easier for dad/mom/son/daughter/whoever if I were out of the picture?" "I won't be missed." "This is better for everyone." That's the deepest cut of all when you're already in that dark place. And no picture of Jesus carrying some guy is going to turn that thinking around when you're already in so deep.

strafen
09-21-2010, 09:52 PM
What concerns me is, was he taking any medications? Some of the **** they are peddling these days...
I've heard this from D-mac on the Fan this afternoon...
Some of details that have emerged from this tragedy -according to the police and the coroner's office- are:
Police upon arrival found the room to be still "smokey" that's the words they used to describe recent pot smoking in the room where Kenny was found laid down on his bed.

Kenny shot himself in the head.
They found a bag of weed in a shoe box in his room
His head was covered under a pillow and a 45 cal. Taurus pistol on top of the pillow.

The coroner's office comfirmed it was a suicide.
Again, this was aired this afternoon on 104.3 The Fan with Big Al and D-mac.
D-mac read the report he's obtained from the coroner's office, it appears...

OABB
09-21-2010, 09:58 PM
I recommend avoiding broad generalizations about depression. No doubt about it, anti-depressants are serious drugs, and it is foolish how they are given out like candy to anyone that feels a little down. That said, there are a lot of people that have been helped, saved even, because of their existence. There are many causes and types of depression, and they aren't all "spiritual." As you noted, these drugs can make depression worse in some people, which means you acknowledge there is a chemically controlled component to depression. There are people who just are off in the chemical make-up in their brain such that feeling okay is an uphill battle. Not every person suffering from depression just needs to face their demons. It ain't that simple.


I acknowledge that taking drugs that alter brain chemistry will make you have brain chemistry issues, yes. I don't acknowledge that there are people born with depression.

Depression is caused by environment and the person's reaction to it. There is no magical "marker" on the brain that is genetic. I know what people have been told, but it simply is not true. There is no biological marker that shows depression in the medical field. The genetic and biological theory by modern day society is just that, a theory.

I have a problem with dangerous drugs being dolled out based on a theory.

But this is a topic for another time. I was just responding to another post. And it appears he only had taken aleve so this is all moot.

strafen
09-21-2010, 10:15 PM
Broncos WR McKinley had talked about suicide

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=154141&catid=339

ENGLEWOOD (AP) - Denver Broncos wide receiver Kenny McKinley, who is thought to have killed himself with a gunshot to the head, had made previous statements about committing suicide, according to a sheriff's investigative report released Tuesday.
The Arapahoe County Sheriff's report quoted one investigator as saying McKinley had been depressed over a knee surgery he had a month ago.

"He had made statements while playing dominoes shortly after the surgery that he should just kill himself," the officer reported. "No one believed he was serious."

The report provided no explanation for the source of the investigator's information.

The report also said McKinley had made statements about not knowing what he would do without football. It said McKinley had flown to South Carolina 10 days earlier to see his young son and had brought him back with him to Denver on Sunday night.

Two female friends who were taking care of his son discovered McKinley's body Monday and called 911. Detectives who responded to his home a few miles from the Broncos headquarters found McKinley's body with a pillow over his head and a .45-caliber semiautomatic pistol on top of the pillow. They also noted a strong odor of freshly burned marijuana, according to the report.

The officers said the NFL Network was on the television in the bedroom.

The report also said McKinley was taking 500 mg naproxen tablets, which is in a class of anti-inflammatories called NSAIDS, but listed no other medications.

Arapahoe County Coroner Michael Dobersen said Tuesday that McKinley died of a gunshot wound to the head. He said a preliminary investigation "suggests the wound to be self-inflicted."

Brittany Boyd, the wife of former Broncos running back Cory Boyd, who was McKinley's best friend and college teammate, was one of the two women who were taking care of McKinley's toddler son when they discovered McKinley had shot himself.

She told The Associated Press she didn't know who told the investigators that McKinley had mentioned suicide - "That wasn't from us," she said - but added that she wouldn't be surprised if nobody would have taken such a threat seriously.

"If it had been said to me, I probably would have been like, 'Yeah, whatever, Kenny.' It would have completely gone over my head," she said. "That's not the type of thing he would say and if he did say it, that's not the type of thing that you would take seriously coming from him.

"Because of his personality, because of who he is, nobody would have ever believed he would have done it."

Boyd, who lives in Denver, said she flew to Columbia, S.C., on Tuesday to take McKinley's son, Keon, who is almost 2, back to the boy's mother, Shayla Lites.

Boyd said she had picked up McKinley and his son at the Denver airport Sunday night and nothing seemed amiss.

"He was just excited about having his son here. He showed no signs of depression, no signs of awkwardness. He was 100 percent himself," Boyd said. "He was 100 percent Kenny, laughing and joking, playing. And he was absolutely normal, he was fine."

She did say, however, that she could tell over the last month that McKinley was having a hard time with not being able to play football or be around his teammates every day. But she said it wasn't like he was struggling to the point anyone feared he would harm himself.

She said neither she nor her friend who was helping take care of the boy knew McKinley had a gun.

"We had no idea," she said. "Nobody knew."

McKinley's teammates and coaches said Tuesday that they didn't see any hint the gregarious 23-year-old wide receiver was suicidal. Neither did the players at his alma mater, South Carolina, when he visited them earlier this month.

"I actually saw Kenny a week and a half ago. He was over here picking up some stuff out of his locker," Broncos linebacker Wesley Woodyard said. "He was always a guy that used to love to joke with me and I would joke back and forth with him. But he had a big smile on his face. He just walked out of the building.

"And that's the last thing we remember, that huge smile. Like coach said, he always showed every tooth in his mouth, just smiling and being happy."

This is the third time in four years the Broncos have had to deal with the death of a teammate under stunning circumstances. Cornerback Darrent Williams, 24, was slain in a drive-by shooting on New Year's Day 2007, and three months later running back Damien Nash, 24, collapsed and died after a charity basketball game in St. Louis.

Broncos coach Josh McDaniels said in a tearful news conference Tuesday that nobody with the Broncos sensed any warning signs from McKinley about his state of mind.

"We've all seen him recently. He's been the same person every time we see him. Liked junk food and chips and things like that," McDaniels said. "He was in the cafeteria, or in the training room, when we were seeing him the last so many weeks here. Nothing that would alarm us to anything like this."

Woodyard said McKinley was his usual joking and jovial self in recent weeks even as he was recovering from his second knee operation this year.

"Every memory that we have of Kenny is a joke and a big smile," Woodyard said.

Woodyard said despite what it might look like to fans, NFL players have lots of pressures in their lives even though they're living the dream.

"Well, you know, football's a stressful job," he said, adding that players have to reach out for help. "It's the same thing with people in everyday life, you've got to talk to somebody in your life, so just to help you work out those problems."

McKinley was a fifth-round draft choice out of South Carolina in 2009. He remains South Carolina's all-time leading receiver with 207 catches for 2,781 yards. He returned to the school earlier this month, watching the Gamecocks beat Georgia 17-6 and visiting with his college coach, Steve Spurrier.

None of his old friends in Columbia, S.C., sensed anything was wrong.

"No, all of our players said the same thing. When he was here, he was happy, smiling, the usual Kenny," Spurrier said.

People who are dealing with depression or suicidal thoughts aren't always outwardly despondent, said Dr. Michael Allen, director of research at the University of Colorado Denver Depression Center. He said suicidal individuals don't always reach out for help, even to those closest to them.

"Warning signs depend on the run up," Allen said, adding that suicidal people who have been depressed and thinking about killing themselves for weeks may sometimes reach out, or have trouble keeping a happy face to cover up their feelings.

"For many people in the mild to moderate range you wouldn't know they're depressed. They're able to put up a good front of joviality," Allen said.

Allen, who wasn't addressing McKinley's death specifically, said reaching out can be difficult for those in the military or on sports teams: "In any group of men where toughness is valued, talking about anything that may be viewed as weakness goes against the grain," Allen said.

The Broncos gathered Tuesday morning on their normal day off and met with grief counselors to help them deal with the death of their friend, who was on injured reserve after hurting his left knee in August.

"We prayed for his family and him," McDaniels said.

The players decided to leave McKinley's locker in place for the remainder of the season as a shrine to their teammate. There will also be a moment of silence Sunday before their game against Indianapolis and players will wear white decals with No. 11 in navy on their helmets.

"We've got to play with him on our shoulders and in our hearts," Woodyard said.

News of his suicide touched players across the NFL.

"Kenny was such a good guy, such a fun guy to be around," said Minnesota Vikings receiver Sidney Rice, a college teammate of McKinley. "He was a happy guy who had a great sense of humor and he's going to be missed by so many people. He was funny and always kept people around him upbeat. I'm shocked he's gone."

McKinley played in eight games as a rookie in 2009 with seven kick returns for 158 yards before going on injured reserve with a left knee injury on Dec. 29. He recovered and participated in the team's offseason workouts but got hurt again during the first week of training camp and was placed on IR on Aug. 5.

McDaniels said McKinley took the news well when he went on IR again, ending his season.

"It was really a decision that we made together," McDaniels said. "... He was working hard with his rehab."

McKinley's agent, Andrew Bondarowicz, said family and friends are at a loss to explain the death of a young man "who had such a love for life."

"There's nothing that we can point to and say, you know what, that's the sign that something was wrong or that he was struggling," Bondarowicz said. "At the end of the day, he was still an NFL player. Even the theories of financial difficulties, it was not like he was cut from the roster. You still get paid on injured reserve."

McKinley signed a four-year deal worth just under $2 million last year after the Broncos selected him in the fifth round of the draft. He was making $395,000 this season even though he was hurt.

(Copyright 2010 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)

BroncosinDC
09-21-2010, 10:38 PM
The similarities here between my Brothers suicide and Kenny's are so close it hurts me. I just hope a charity or foundation starts up to help people with these issues. I lack the funds to do so...or I would have.



Godspeed Kenny, I hope you meet up with Alex he was the ultimate Broncos fan in my opinion. I made this pic the summer before his suicide...

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/3508/alexbroncos.png (http://img84.imageshack.us/i/alexbroncos.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

mkporter
09-21-2010, 10:44 PM
I acknowledge that taking drugs that alter brain chemistry will make you have brain chemistry issues, yes. I don't acknowledge that there are people born with depression.

Depression is caused by environment and the person's reaction to it. There is no magical "marker" on the brain that is genetic. I know what people have been told, but it simply is not true. There is no biological marker that shows depression in the medical field. The genetic and biological theory by modern day society is just that, a theory.

I have a problem with dangerous drugs being dolled out based on a theory.

But this is a topic for another time. I was just responding to another post. And it appears he only had taken aleve so this is all moot.

I'll leave the discussion for another time. I definitely disagree, just don't want to derail the thread.

OABB
09-21-2010, 10:44 PM
I'll leave the discussion for another time. I definitely disagree, just don't want to derail the thread.

agreed.

BroncoInferno
09-22-2010, 06:55 AM
I acknowledge that taking drugs that alter brain chemistry will make you have brain chemistry issues, yes. I don't acknowledge that there are people born with depression.

Depression is caused by environment and the person's reaction to it. There is no magical "marker" on the brain that is genetic. I know what people have been told, but it simply is not true. There is no biological marker that shows depression in the medical field. The genetic and biological theory by modern day society is just that, a theory.

I have a problem with dangerous drugs being dolled out based on a theory.

But this is a topic for another time. I was just responding to another post. And it appears he only had taken aleve so this is all moot.

Thanks for expert medical opinion, Tom Cruise.

It is a scientific fact that brain chemistry has an impact on one's moods and mental health.

BroncoInferno
09-22-2010, 07:06 AM
Okay, just playing the devil's advocate here. I don't really have a pony in this race.

But...

What if you feel that your continued existence will only hurt those around you? What if you're so filled with self-loathing that you cannon possibly understand how anyone wouldn't be better off if you just disappeared?

We're not talking about a rational process, obviously. Someone might think, "Sure I have a son. And that son will be better off in life with the void that is my loss than he would be to have me screwing up his life."

It breaks my heart that people get to that point. But they do.

Great post, Dom. I was getting sick reading these self-righteous pricks comparing suicide to murder and rape. The person who commits suicide is generally so mentally-ill, feels such self-loathing, that they truly believe they are dragging down the people around them and that everyone will be better off in the long run without them. They aren't thinking, "I don't care if everyone is devestated by this; I want to die." They think they are doing family and friends a favor by unburdening them of their existence. It's not a rational thought process, and it is small minded to judge them on those terms.

Beantown Bronco
09-22-2010, 07:17 AM
Great post, Dom. I was getting sick reading these self-righteous pricks comparing suicide to murder and rape. The person who commits suicide is generally so mentally-ill, feels such self-loathing, that they truly believe they are dragging down the people around them and that everyone will be better off in the long run without them. They aren't thinking, "I don't care if everyone is devestated by this; I want to die." They think they are doing family and friends a favor by unburdening them of their existence. It's not a rational thought process, and it is small minded to judge them on those terms.

To play Devil's advocate, one could easily argue that rapists and murderers are equally mentally-ill and go through the same irrational thought processes. Is it self-righteous to judge them?

2KBack
09-22-2010, 07:19 AM
To play Devil's advocate, one could easily argue that rapists and murderers are equally mentally-ill and go through the same irrational thought processes. Is it self-righteous to judge them?

I would argue that most judging is self-righteous. As a self-righteous prick I'm cool with that.

Rulon Velvet Jones
09-22-2010, 07:20 AM
Whoa.

/slowly backs out of thread

OABB
09-22-2010, 07:20 AM
Thanks for expert medical opinion, Tom Cruise.

It is a scientific fact that brain chemistry has an impact on one's moods and mental health.

Yes. but it's not a fact that there is a genetic or biological imbalance doucher.

What you are saying is "a lobotomy will affect moods" which is true. What I'm saying is a lobotomy is when they drill out your brain with a large bit trough your eye socket which is medically cruel and also based on a theory.

People may be born with autism or other mental issues. But depression is from not liking ones life douche rod. I know it's hard for people to accept that they are unhappy because uncle willy touched them instead of the easy out of saying it's from genetic brain damage.

baja
09-22-2010, 07:21 AM
To play Devil's advocate, one could easily argue that rapists and murderers are equally mentally-ill and go through the same irrational thought processes. Is it self-righteous to judge them?

Without knowing the circumstances yes. That was what our legal system was suposed to be for.

BroncoInferno
09-22-2010, 07:25 AM
To play Devil's advocate, one could easily argue that rapists and murderers are equally mentally-ill and go through the same irrational thought processes. Is it self-righteous to judge them?

The murderer surely KNOWS and INTENDS to harm his victim. If it is shown clearly that he does not, we have the little used "not guilty by reason of insanity" verdict. The suicide case normally does not believe he is harming anyone else, that he is in fact improving the quality of life of others by ridding them of himself.

Beantown Bronco
09-22-2010, 07:28 AM
The suicide case normally does not believe he is harming anyone else, that he is in fact improving the quality of life of others by ridding them of himself.

This is patently false. Is it true for some? Sure. But MANY do it out of spite for the actions of others, so that they will feel guilt for their actions that supposedly led to the suicide.

I'm not guessing here, BTW.

BroncoInferno
09-22-2010, 07:43 AM
This is patently false. Is it true for some? Sure. But MANY do it out of spite for the actions of others, so that they will feel guilt for their actions that supposedly led to the suicide.

I'm not guessing here, BTW.

That's why I said "normally." You are right, sometimes people do it out of spite to "get back" at someone. In fact, I had an aquaintance in college whose girlfriend dumped him at a party. He went to his car and got his gun and shot himself right in front of her. So, yeah, that kind of thing does happen. But, generally, a suicide case is someone with a long history of severe depression. It sounds like that was essentially the case with Kenny,

2KBack
09-22-2010, 07:43 AM
This is patently false. Is it true for some? Sure. But MANY do it out of spite for the actions of others, so that they will feel guilt for their actions that supposedly led to the suicide.

I'm not guessing here, BTW.

I don't think it can be generalized either way. My best friend committed suicide 3 years ago this past August. His direct reasoning through his note was to make his Ex-feel guilty. This supports your argument, but I am convinced that he was very mentally ill as well. I am also very supportive of understanding clinical depression better.

There is no "normally" when it comes to killing ones self. There are lots of forms of suffering.

BroncoInferno
09-22-2010, 07:46 AM
Yes. but it's not a fact that there is a genetic or biological imbalance doucher.

What you are saying is "a lobotomy will affect moods" which is true. What I'm saying is a lobotomy is when they drill out your brain with a large bit trough your eye socket which is medically cruel and also based on a theory.

People may be born with autism or other mental issues. But depression is from not liking ones life douche rod. I know it's hard for people to accept that they are unhappy because uncle willy touched them instead of the easy out of saying it's from genetic brain damage.

Again, your expert medical opinion is greatly appreciated.

55CrushEm
09-22-2010, 07:49 AM
i would argue that most judging is self-righteous. As a self-righteous prick i'm cool with that.

:rofl:

OABB
09-22-2010, 07:50 AM
Again, your expert medical opinion is greatly appreciated.

It's not an opinion. The apa( American psychiatric association) is the ones that said it not me. Look it up. There are no biological markers for depression. Does a psychiatrist test brain chemistry? Do they do a spinal tap before they diagnose you? Is there a blood test? No. It's like a doctor saying you have cancer because you have eyebags and a lump. It really is this way.

There is no brain chemistry issue in depression outside of a 60 year old theory. In the thorozine days. Look it up instead of insulting me.

mkporter
09-22-2010, 10:14 AM
It's not an opinion. The apa( American psychiatric association) is the ones that said it not me. Look it up. There are no biological markers for depression. Does a psychiatrist test brain chemistry? Do they do a spinal tap before they diagnose you? Is there a blood test? No. It's like a doctor saying you have cancer because you have eyebags and a lump. It really is this way.

There is no brain chemistry issue in depression outside of a 60 year old theory. In the thorozine days. Look it up instead of insulting me.

Well, since the thread is now derailed, I'm jumping back in. From the APA:

http://www.apa.org/topics/depress/recover.aspx

What Causes Depression?

There is no single answer to this question. Some depression is caused by changes in the body's chemistry that influence mood and thought processes. Biological factors can also cause depression. In other cases, depression is a sign that certain mental and emotional aspects of a person's life are out of balance. For example, significant life transitions and life stresses, such as the death of a loved one, can bring about a depressive episode.



Are Medications Useful for Treating Depression?

Medications can be very helpful for reducing the symptoms of depression in some people, particularly in cases of moderate to severe depression. Often a combination of psychotherapy and medications is the best course of treatment. However, given the potential side effects, any use of medication requires close monitoring by the physician who prescribes the drugs.

epicSocialism4tw
09-22-2010, 10:18 AM
This whole "dont judge" argument is irrational and useless.

Value judgments are made by every person during every minute of every day. It is literally the job of your brain to process information input, evaluate it, store it, and then put it to use. On a macro and a micro scale this is true.

By saying "dont judge" you are literally saying not to use your brain. Typical liberal tactic...ignore reality and instead just feel the emotions of the situation.

epicSocialism4tw
09-22-2010, 10:19 AM
Well, since the thread is now derailed, I'm jumping back in. From the APA:

http://www.apa.org/topics/depress/recover.aspx

Think about this one...

What effects does RNA regulation have on the production of neurotransmitters? Can the brain up-regulate the presence of certain neurotransmitters based on plasticity?

mkporter
09-22-2010, 10:33 AM
This whole "dont judge" argument is irrational and useless.

Value judgments are made by every person during every minute of every day. It is literally the job of your brain to process information input, evaluate it, store it, and then put it to use. On a macro and a micro scale this is true.

By saying "dont judge" you are literally saying not to use your brain. Typical liberal tactic...ignore reality and instead just feel the emotions of the situation.

I think when most people say "don't judge," the message they want to impart is "take consideration in your judgment that you don't have all of the information."

And you're really gonna make this a left/right issue? How many bible thumping right wingers will drop Matthew 7-1?: "Judge not, that ye be not judged." And how many granola eating, tree hugging lefties will call you are murderer for wearing leather shoes? Not everything is about politics.

mkporter
09-22-2010, 10:59 AM
Think about this one...

What effects does RNA regulation have on the production of neurotransmitters? Can the brain up-regulate the presence of certain neurotransmitters based on plasticity?

What luck, an expert! Please enlighten us.

Tombstone RJ
09-22-2010, 11:04 AM
Fact of the matter is that it is ok to judge other people and their actions, that being said, you can choose to agree or disagree with those actions. In today's progressive society, you have to walk a fine line when casting judgement on another person. However, if you're MO is that there is a higher standard by which all humans are judged (this is my own personal MO) then I am ok with someone saying "this is right, and this is wrong."

When you judge another person for their actions, my MO is that this is ok, if you first admit that you are not without flaws. In other words, don't condemn another until you have admitted your own transgressions. Once you have acknowledge your own imperfections it's then ok to say about another person "I don't agree with what he or she did because of this...."

None of us are perfect, we all live in a fallen and sinful world. I don't agree with suicide but I'm not going to cast shame on McKinnley for his actions. It's unfortunate he decided to do this, especially considering that many people loved him. IMHO if a person seeks help, there is another way out of whatever percieved predicament that person might be in. Seek and you shall find, ask and you shall receive an answer...

Rohirrim
09-22-2010, 11:15 AM
The Arapahoe Sheriff reported that McKinley was taking 500 mgs of Naproxen. Naproxen has been indicated for suicidal ideation in previous cases (and some suicides, it appears):
http://www.druglib.com/adverse-reactions_side-effects/naproxen/seriousness_death/reaction_completed_suicide/

Popps
09-22-2010, 11:21 AM
The Arapahoe Sheriff reported that McKinley was taking 500 mgs of Naproxen. Naproxen has been the suspected cause of suicidal ideation in previous cases (and some suicides, it appears):
http://www.druglib.com/adverse-reactions_side-effects/naproxen/seriousness_death/reaction_completed_suicide/

I speculated on his tribute thread that medications could have been involved. Yet another reason jumping to any conclusions and mouthing "opinions" about his suicide is so idiotic, at this point.

Let the man rest. Have some decency, folks.... if not just briefly.

Rohirrim
09-22-2010, 11:26 AM
I speculated on his tribute thread that medications could have been involved. Yet another reason jumping to any conclusions and mouthing "opinions" about his suicide is so idiotic, at this point.

Let the man rest. Have some decency, folks.... if not just briefly.

That's the first thing I thought of when I read about McKinley. If something just doesn't make sense, then there has to be another explanation.

mkporter
09-22-2010, 11:30 AM
The Arapahoe Sheriff reported that McKinley was taking 500 mgs of Naproxen. Naproxen has been indicated for suicidal ideation in previous cases (and some suicides, it appears):
http://www.druglib.com/adverse-reactions_side-effects/naproxen/seriousness_death/reaction_completed_suicide/

I think you might want to look a little closer at that page. First, Naproxen is the generic for Aleve, which is a common over the counter pain medication. Second, this list just shows the medications people were on when they contemplated suicide, or something else. It does not specifically link the disorder to the medication. I'm pretty sure the fact that these people were taking Aleve is just happenstance. Most of these people were taking a lot of other more serious medications. I think it is probably a stretch to implicate Aleve in suicidal ideation.

Beantown Bronco
09-22-2010, 11:32 AM
People too quickly jumping to conclusions about others supposedly jumping too quickly to conclusions.....awesome.

DomCasual
09-22-2010, 11:35 AM
People too quickly jumping to conclusions about others supposedly jumping too quickly to conclusions.....awesome.

http://a1.phobos.apple.com/us/r1000/036/Purple/42/6b/1d/mzl.ljgpyakv.320x480-75.jpg

Rohirrim
09-22-2010, 11:50 AM
I think you might want to look a little closer at that page. First, Naproxen is the generic for Aleve, which is a common over the counter pain medication. Second, this list just shows the medications people were on when they contemplated suicide, or something else. It does not specifically link the disorder to the medication. I'm pretty sure the fact that these people were taking Aleve is just happenstance. Most of these people were taking a lot of other more serious medications. I think it is probably a stretch to implicate Aleve in suicidal ideation.

I didn't say it was specifically linked. I just searched for the indications and that's what I found. Personally, I don't accept that simply calling something over-counter makes it safe. It just means the FDA says it's safe. The FDA says that bovine hormones in milk is safe, among about a million other things.

Beantown Bronco
09-22-2010, 11:54 AM
Reminds me of all the disclaimers you see at the end of every commercial involving meds these days. Could be a freakin tylenol commercial, yet you're forced to hear about all the 5,000 potential side effects up to and including possible death.....when all you have is a headache.

mkporter
09-22-2010, 12:11 PM
I didn't say it was specifically linked. I just searched for the indications and that's what I found. Personally, I don't accept that simply calling something over-counter makes it safe. It just means the FDA says it's safe. The FDA says that bovine hormones in milk is safe, among about a million other things.

You certainly made the implication that there was a link. There isn't one. I pointed out that it was over-the-counter to note that it is a very common substance, that many people take, so it is likely to show up as being in the system of many people who suffer from any particular malady. If one didn't know better, Naproxen sounds like it could be any kind of much more dangerous medication, instead of Aleve, which most people are pretty comfortable with.

OABB
09-22-2010, 12:12 PM
Well, since the thread is now derailed, I'm jumping back in. From the APA:

http://www.apa.org/topics/depress/recover.aspx

here are some you may have missed from our friends in the APA;


THIS IS ONE OF MY FAVORITES-

"[B]rain science has not advanced to the point where scientists or clinicians can point to readily discernible pathologic lesions or genetic abnormalities that in and of themselves serve as reliable or predictive biomarkers of a given mental disorder or mental disorders as a group. "

SO.....THERE IS NO ACTUAL LESION OR MARKER OR WAY TO TEST? HMM..LET'S GIVE THEM SOME MIND ALTERING DRUGS! THAT'LL FIX THESE LESIONS...THAT AREN'T....THERE....

HERE'S ANOTHER:

"Ultimately, no gross anatomical lesion such as a tumor may ever be found; rather, mental disorders will likely be proven to represent disorders of intercellular communication; or of disrupted neural circuitry. ...

I LIKE THE SCIENTIFIC USE OF THE WORD "LIKELY". IS THAT AN OFFICIAL SCIENCE TERM? IT SEEMS SO....WELL...NOT SCIENCY...

HERE'S ANOTHER:

"In the absence of one or more biological markers for mental disorders, these conditions are defined by a variety of concepts.

WOW! THAT'S SCIENCY TOO. A VARIETY OF STUFF!

HERE'S ANOTHER.

"As noted in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, which is published by the APA, the lack of a laboratory-based diagnostic test is not unique to mental and behavioral disorders."

AW **** IT! WE CAN'T TEST FOR IT OR PROVE IT, BUT WE CAN'T DO THAT WITH OTHER STUFF!

AND ANOTHER:

"Thus, mental disorders may well be shown to be emergent properties of multiple systems that have gone subtly awry.

OTHER STUFF WENT ALL CRAZY LIKE! LET'S GET YOU SOME HAPPY PILLS!

HERES ONE MORE- A GOOD ONE:

"The lack of a laboratory-based diagnostic test for mental disorders does not diminish the irrefutable evidence that mental and behavioral disorders exact devastating emotional and financial tolls on individuals, families, communities, and our Nation. ... "


DOES JHIZ WORK FOR THE APA? WHAT A BACK OUT JHIZ STYLE!

JUST CAUSE WE CAN'T PROVE IT DOESN'T MEAN IT ISNT BAD!

DOUCHES.

Popps
09-22-2010, 12:29 PM
I didn't say it was specifically linked. I just searched for the indications and that's what I found. Personally, I don't accept that simply calling something over-counter makes it safe. It just means the FDA says it's safe. The FDA says that bovine hormones in milk is safe, among about a million other things.

Believe me when I tell you... the FDA saying something is "safe" means very little. I just went through an adverse drug reaction that's taken me months to get over from a supposedly "safe" drug. That led me to speaking to a number of experts, including an author on the subject and it's just fascinating. (Or, scary.) I had a healthy distrust for the medical industry before this ordeal. Now, it's off the charts. (No pun intended.)

If people knew what drug companies were allowed to get away with as far as their clinical "trials," they wouldn't ever take medicine again.

I do agree that with OTC meds, you at least have a larger sample-size of people taking them, and hence more reported side effects.

All that said... Naxopren alone does seem unlikely to have such an effect. But, we don't know... which is again why voicing opinions or trying to make moral "points" out of this thing right now is just ignorant.

Rohirrim
09-22-2010, 01:03 PM
You certainly made the implication that there was a link. There isn't one. I pointed out that it was over-the-counter to note that it is a very common substance, that many people take, so it is likely to show up as being in the system of many people who suffer from any particular malady. If one didn't know better, Naproxen sounds like it could be any kind of much more dangerous medication, instead of Aleve, which most people are pretty comfortable with.

I didn't imply ****. I said this was an indication. It was an indication.

mkporter
09-22-2010, 01:37 PM
I didn't imply ****. I said this was an indication. It was an indication.

You said he was taking Naproxen, then you posted a link showing a list of suicidal people who were taking Naproxen. Then you said the presence of Naproxen was an indication for suicidal ideation.

This is the definition I use for the term "indication":


Indication: 1. In medicine, a condition which makes a particular treatment or procedure advisable. CML (chronic myeloid leukemia) is an indication for the use of Gleevec (imatinib mesylate). 2. A sign or a circumstance which points to or shows the cause, pathology, treatment, or outcome of an attack of disease. The presence of the Philadelphia chromosome in peripheral blood cells is an indication of a relapse in CML.

Indication implies that the substance has something to do with the condition. Maybe your definition is different, and that led to the misunderstanding.

Dutch
09-22-2010, 01:57 PM
Believe me when I tell you... the FDA saying something is "safe" means very little. I just went through an adverse drug reaction that's taken me months to get over from a supposedly "safe" drug. That led me to speaking to a number of experts, including an author on the subject and it's just fascinating. (Or, scary.) I had a healthy distrust for the medical industry before this ordeal. Now, it's off the charts. (No pun intended.)
If people knew what drug companies were allowed to get away with as far as their clinical "trials," they wouldn't ever take medicine again.

I do agree that with OTC meds, you at least have a larger sample-size of people taking them, and hence more reported side effects.

All that said... Naxopren alone does seem unlikely to have such an effect. But, we don't know... which is again why voicing opinions or trying to make moral "points" out of this thing right now is just ignorant.

THIS!
Didn't even want to weigh in on this debate as I am just feeling very bad for his loved ones right now. I live in Cobb county, Ga. Kenny played his high school ball at South Cobb High and was a very popular, bright, and good kid who everyone was proud of around here. Really a fine young man. To equate 500mg naproxen being prescribed in 1000mg doses with OTC 200mg doses of the same drug is foolish. This is why you don't get 500mg OTC. 2 500mg naps can make you feel "off" and act as a downer. I've been on them daily for 3 years. Add alcohol, makes it worse. Add weed as has been indicated by the Sherriff's dept, gets worse. This I do know from personal experience. Both booze and weed are depressants and Naproxen in the doses which Kenny had been taken them post op could have easily led him down this path in conjunction with the head space he was already in due to being IR'ed again this year. I really feel bad for the young man and his family. I also don't doubt the mind frame he was in post op in conjunction with the meds had more than a little to do with this turn of events. On a side note, had my Broncos hat on at the store today, you would not believe the number of people who asked about the situation and offered their condolences for me and my team. Well over a dozen. Just really surprised by it. He really was well thought of around here.

OABB
09-22-2010, 02:00 PM
the fda requires two positive trials for an approval. if there are 100 negative trials, they aren't reported. the popular drug cymbalta caused a girl to hang herself(she was a non depressed variable patient) and it wasn't submitted to the fda.

mkporter
09-22-2010, 02:02 PM
here are some you may have missed from our friends in the APA;


THIS IS ONE OF MY FAVORITES-

"[B]rain science has not advanced to the point where scientists or clinicians can point to readily discernible pathologic lesions or genetic abnormalities that in and of themselves serve as reliable or predictive biomarkers of a given mental disorder or mental disorders as a group. "

SO.....THERE IS NO ACTUAL LESION OR MARKER OR WAY TO TEST? HMM..LET'S GIVE THEM SOME MIND ALTERING DRUGS! THAT'LL FIX THESE LESIONS...THAT AREN'T....THERE....

HERE'S ANOTHER:

"Ultimately, no gross anatomical lesion such as a tumor may ever be found; rather, mental disorders will likely be proven to represent disorders of intercellular communication; or of disrupted neural circuitry. ...

I LIKE THE SCIENTIFIC USE OF THE WORD "LIKELY". IS THAT AN OFFICIAL SCIENCE TERM? IT SEEMS SO....WELL...NOT SCIENCY...

HERE'S ANOTHER:

"In the absence of one or more biological markers for mental disorders, these conditions are defined by a variety of concepts.

WOW! THAT'S SCIENCY TOO. A VARIETY OF STUFF!

HERE'S ANOTHER.

"As noted in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, which is published by the APA, the lack of a laboratory-based diagnostic test is not unique to mental and behavioral disorders."

AW **** IT! WE CAN'T TEST FOR IT OR PROVE IT, BUT WE CAN'T DO THAT WITH OTHER STUFF!

AND ANOTHER:

"Thus, mental disorders may well be shown to be emergent properties of multiple systems that have gone subtly awry.

OTHER STUFF WENT ALL CRAZY LIKE! LET'S GET YOU SOME HAPPY PILLS!

HERES ONE MORE- A GOOD ONE:

"The lack of a laboratory-based diagnostic test for mental disorders does not diminish the irrefutable evidence that mental and behavioral disorders exact devastating emotional and financial tolls on individuals, families, communities, and our Nation. ... "


DOES JHIZ WORK FOR THE APA? WHAT A BACK OUT JHIZ STYLE!

JUST CAUSE WE CAN'T PROVE IT DOESN'T MEAN IT ISNT BAD!

DOUCHES.

Wow. All caps really drives your points home. Maybe you shouldn't use the APA in your arguments if you think they are such fools. You do realize that pretty much all advances in modern medicine have come about empirically, right? I mean, if some one invented a drug, based on a hypothesis, that was observed to eliminate tumors, and was tested on 1000's of subjects, wouldn't you consider taking it if you had cancer? Even without being able to know with certainty how it was reducing the tumors?

All medications have side effects. Anytime you take one, you have to weigh the risk/reward ratio. This is particularly true for antidepressants. They can have some pretty serious side effects. They can also save lives when used properly.

I'm not arguing that people with depression have brain lesions. It is clear that certain people are much more naturally capable of handling stressful circumstances than others (whatever the cause may be), and there is a preponderance of evidence that anti-depressants can make a positive impact in this area. I've seen it first hand. I have also seen some of the nasty side effects, so don't think that I take that lightly.

OABB
09-22-2010, 02:06 PM
Wow. All caps really drives your points home. Maybe you shouldn't use the APA in your arguments if you think they are such fools. You do realize that pretty much all advances in modern medicine have come about empirically, right? I mean, if some one invented a drug, based on a hypothesis, that was observed to eliminate tumors, and was tested on 1000's of subjects, wouldn't you consider taking it if you had cancer? Even without being able to know with certainty how it was reducing the tumors?

All medications have side effects. Anytime you take one, you have to weigh the risk/reward ratio. This is particularly true for antidepressants. They can have some pretty serious side effects. They can also save lives when used properly.

I'm not arguing that people with depression have brain lesions. It is clear that certain people are much more naturally capable of handling stressful circumstances than others (whatever the cause may be), and there is a preponderance of evidence that anti-depressants can make a positive impact in this area. I've seen it first hand. I have also seen some of the nasty side effects, so don't think that I take that lightly.

lobotomies are said to work too. just because you numb a depressed person, doesn't mean they are getting better. it's just that their symptoms are lessened. anti depressants treat the symptoms, not the cause.

If a medication killed cancer, than it is successfull because it killed the cause of the illness. If it just made the tumor shrink, and the person stopped feeling ill, but still had cancer it wouldn't be a success. You see, the cause of depression is a depressing life, not a tumor. which is my whole point dummy.

maybe we should go back to drilling holes in people's brains or elotrocuting them? they were said to have worked.

Beantown Bronco
09-22-2010, 02:08 PM
the popular drug cymbalta caused a girl to hang herself.

Opinion.

OABB
09-22-2010, 02:13 PM
Opinion.

no. she was in a drug trial, and she hung herself in the lab at Eli Lilly. This is a fact. She was not depressed. she was in the trial to see what would happen if an undepressed person took cymbalta. she killed herself. seriously.

The flip side of the argument is that she was given heavy doses, so if you want to refute, you can go there. It is not an opinion though. it is a fact. a real actual fact.

Beantown Bronco
09-22-2010, 02:17 PM
no. she was in a drug trial, and she hung herself in the lab at Eli Lilly. This is a fact. She was not depressed. she was in the trial to see what would happen if an undepressed person took cymbalta. she killed herself. seriously.

The flip side of the argument is that she was given heavy doses, so if you want to refute, you can go there. It is not an opinion though. it is a fact. a real actual fact.

What is a fact is that she killed herself. What is NOT a fact is that the "drug made her do it." Any number of things could've made her do it. Only she knows for sure why.

Flex Gunmetal
09-22-2010, 02:21 PM
no. she was in a drug trial, and she hung herself in the lab at Eli Lilly. This is a fact. She was not depressed. she was in the trial to see what would happen if an undepressed person took cymbalta. she killed herself. seriously.

The flip side of the argument is that she was given heavy doses, so if you want to refute, you can go there. It is not an opinion though. it is a fact. a real actual fact.

oh. snap.

kappys
09-22-2010, 02:23 PM
1) Naproxen - belongs to a class of drugs called NSAIDS - including motrin, indocin, toradol and a large variety of other medications. The widespread use of the drugs and the lack of relationship to suicide strongly suggests that aleve is probably not linked to suicide. That said we know for certain that chronic pain is linked to suicide - and of course most people are taking aleve for pain.

2) The FDA reporting system or medwatch - is far from perfect. Submitted reports go through very little verification and overall very few physicians or pharmacists routinely report information to medwatch. I haven't looked up formal studies on this but I might - would be a very quick and easy thing to get published I think.

3) Brain chemistry - I suspect it is altered by depression and drugs. But it is quite clearly altered by praying and meditation as well. Newer imaging modalities such as SPECT and DWI MRI which can demonstrate regional brain metabolic activity show clear changes in people with differing mental states. The most impressive of which IMO are the studies done on monks who meditate. Almost certainly they weren't just born with unusually wired brains but developed a sort of mental discipline and rewired their brains with practice. Another interesting case study is pancreatic cancer which is often associated with very profound depression despite the lack of brain metastases or observable brain changes.

4) Orange - as for your cancer analogy that is exactly what we do now with certain diseases. Perhaps the poster children are prostate cancer and more recently multiple myeloma. These diseases can be very challenging to cure but medicaitons allow for enough cancer suppresion that quite often people live full lives and die from some other cause. It is not a classic cure but would we deny that these people deserve to have those medications and that while its not perfect it is at least a "cure" of sorts?

OABB
09-22-2010, 02:27 PM
What is a fact is that she killed herself. What is NOT a fact is that the "drug made her do it." Any number of things could've made her do it. Only she knows for sure why.

WHAT? whose using opinions now? A non depressed patient taking part in a drug trial with a drug KNOWN for increasing suicidal risks in patients killing herself in the lab is an opinion?

I have an excellent opportunity in real estate for you. pm if interested.

mkporter
09-22-2010, 02:29 PM
lobotomies are said to work too. just because you numb a depressed person, doesn't mean they are getting better. it's just that their symptoms are lessened. anti depressants treat the symptoms, not the cause.

If a medication killed cancer, than it is successfull because it killed the cause of the illness. If it just made the tumor shrink, and the person stopped feeling ill, but still had cancer it wouldn't be a success. You see, the cause of depression is a depressing life, not a tumor. which is my whole point dummy.

maybe we should go back to drilling holes in people's brains or elotrocuting them? they were said to have worked.

Science has come up with some really ridiculous treatments in the history of mankind. Science is also the reason most of the people on this message board are still alive. It's messy, but it eventually works.

It is certainly unfortunate that people may have died that otherwise wouldn't have because they took these medications. There are likely many more that would have died if they didn't.

Some people are depressed because they have depressing lives. This is pretty normal, and therapy/exercise/diet treatment is probably a much better course of treatment for them then drugs. There are some people who suffer from major depressive disorder that have otherwise very good lives, however. For these people, relatively normal, but stressful events can cause very severe depression. They are not "sad," because daddy touched them in the wrong place. They are very depressed, often to the point that they can't live their lives. Studies show that the combination of anti-depressants and therapy is the best treatment to help them live better lives. They do work, and they are risky, which is why I think they should be approached with much more caution than they are by most.

baja
09-22-2010, 02:30 PM
Is the FDA working in your behalf?

http://www.naturalnews.com/GoogleSearchResults.html?q=FDA+and+the+phara&cx=010579349100583850635:w_kzwe9_yca&cof=FORID:11&ie=UTF-8&sa.x=49&sa.y=9&sa=Search&siteurl=www.naturalnews.com/

mkporter
09-22-2010, 02:33 PM
If it just made the tumor shrink, and the person stopped feeling ill, but still had cancer it wouldn't be a success.

People with cancer would probably disagree with you.

gunns
09-22-2010, 02:34 PM
Suicide is what it is. It's the persons choice. It is selfish, no doubt, but not up to any of us to place judgement on him.

He made his choice.

I do however feel for that kid. He is the one that all our compassion and sympathy should be extended to. He has been dealt a terrible hand, and will never get over this loss. Here's to hoping he gets proper support and doesn't buy into depression being chemical and popping brain damaging pills.

I hope he is honest in his pain and gets help from an actual therapist that will listen to him and take the time necessary to help him deal with his very real pain.

I'm sorry for that little guy...

It's not unusual to feel anger towards a person who has done this. And you are right, it's this child now that needs to be surrounded and helped throughout the years. His one question will be, why wasn't I important enough for dad to stay around. While none of us can understand the thoughts of a suicidal person, this little boy won't have any comprehension. Just a sad, sad situation for everyone.

OABB
09-22-2010, 02:36 PM
1)

4) Orange - as for your cancer analogy that is exactly what we do now with certain diseases. Perhaps the poster children are prostate cancer and more recently multiple myeloma. These diseases can be very challenging to cure but medicaitons allow for enough cancer suppresion that quite often people live full lives and die from some other cause. It is not a classic cure but would we deny that these people deserve to have those medications and that while its not perfect it is at least a "cure" of sorts?

Sure. If depression were an actual disease and not a made up one like obesity than I would agree with you. But it is not. gain there is no belief in the scientific community that it is a disease. If cancer were caused by being unhappy in your life, like depression ACTUALLY is, wouldn't you want these patients to change their lives instead of taking suppressive, but dangerous drugs?

That is the ultimate point. Whatever "benefit" these anti-depressants have( and they perform around the same level as placebo in REALITY) wouldn't you want someone to take responsibility for their unhappiness?

If you had a friend that was depressed because, lets say their wife left them, would you want them to take damaging drugs or talk to you about their sadness in hopes that dealing with the pain will ultimately reduce the depression.

Drinking alcohol is effective in the symptoms of depression too, ultimately it does the same thing as anti-depressants. although instead of a red nose and liver issues you get side effects like suicidal thoughts, mania or homicidal thoughts with drugs.

This is a nation of fatties that want to blame their chubbs on genes or glandular disorders when all they really should do is stop eating like a fat hog and work out once in a while. The depression "epidemic" is the same. get over it, change your life and talk to someone. don't look for something outside of you to blame.

OABB
09-22-2010, 02:40 PM
People with cancer would probably disagree with you.

lose an argument with class. I said it wouldn't be succesful in response to it being a "cure'. suppression of side effects is not a cure. It is not. I didn't say it wasn't an improvement.

however there is a cure for depression. It's called therapy and responsibility.

OABB
09-22-2010, 02:44 PM
There are some people who suffer from major depressive disorder that have otherwise very good lives, however.
for our viewers:
This is an opinion.

You have no idea what these people with "normal lives" have really been through. They may seem happy and may seem to have a good support system. But you have no idea what they may be hiding.

I had this conversation with clav here and he said the same thing. He had a normal life and was depressed for no reason. Than he lets it slip that his dad died when he was 11.

I mentioned that maybe HIS ****ING DAD DIEING may have SOMETHING TO DO WITH HIS SADNESS. and he responded that he was "over that".

how do you get over that?

he must of had a brain chemistry issue right?

don't talk about things you don't know. You have no idea what people have seen or been through.

kappys
09-22-2010, 02:44 PM
Sure. If depression were an actual disease and not a made up one like obesity than I would agree with you. But it is not.

Prostate cancer and depression - there is a link there and curing the cancer cures the disease(depression). BTW the depression is often the presenting feature - I'm not talking about people who get diagnosed with prostate cancer and then get depressed.

OABB
09-22-2010, 02:46 PM
Prostate cancer and depression - there is a link there and curing the cancer cures the disease(depression). BTW the depression is often the presenting feature - I'm not talking about people who get diagnosed with prostate cancer and then get depressed.

can you show me a link? I'm curious as to what you are saying.

if you are saying that these people with cancer are depressed, but it's not because they have cancer, how do you know this?

kappys
09-22-2010, 02:51 PM
can you show me a link? I'm curious as to what you are saying.

if you are saying that these people with cancer are depressed, but it's not because they have cancer, how do you know this?

http://www.cancernetwork.com/cancer-management-12/chapter36/article/10165/1537470

Scroll down to the etiology section. I am too lazy to look up the original scholarly articles but the relationship is well established by prior studies. There are a number of people that have gone through this cycle - not depressed --> depressed, then diagnosed the pancreatic cancer --> treatment(cure rates stil suck but some make it,esp if early disease that is surgically resectable) --> no depression.

I know this because of scholarly work in this area that is in the medical literature.

OABB
09-22-2010, 02:54 PM
http://www.cancernetwork.com/cancer-management-12/chapter36/article/10165/1537470

Scroll down to the etiology section. I am too lazy to look up the original scholarly articles but the relationship is well established by prior studies. There are a number of people that have gone through this cycle - not depressed --> depressed, then diagnosed the pancreatic cancer --> treatment(cure rates stil suck but some make it,esp if early disease that is surgically resectable) --> no depression.

I know this because of scholarly work in this area that is in the medical literature.

Umm.. maybe you want me to look at something else?


Etiology
Psychological causesMajor depressive disorder is common in the general population (point prevalence, ~6%) and is a recurrent disease. Patients with a history of mood disorder are at risk for relapse in the face of a cancer diagnosis. In the setting of malignancy, obvious stressors include news of initial diagnosis, treatment failure, or disease progression. Patients may also confront more subtle stressors, including loss of independence, financial woes, diminished body image, family strain, and existential angst.


this sounds like they are depressed by the diagnosis, no?

kappys
09-22-2010, 03:25 PM
Presenting symptom of malignancy Depression may be a presenting symptom of some primary malignancies, most notably pancreatic carcinoma. Primary and metastatic brain tumors can cause frontal lobe disinhibition syndromes or personality changes that mimic depression and other psychiatric disorders.

From the next paragraph

mkporter
09-22-2010, 03:26 PM
for our viewers:
This is an opinion.

You have no idea what these people with "normal lives" have really been through. They may seem happy and may seem to have a good support system. But you have no idea what they may be hiding.


And somehow you do? You know for sure that every person who suffers from depression suffered through an event that caused it?


I had this conversation with clav here and he said the same thing. He had a normal life and was depressed for no reason. Than he lets it slip that his dad died when he was 11.

I mentioned that maybe HIS ****ING DAD DIEING may have SOMETHING TO DO WITH HIS SADNESS. and he responded that he was "over that".

how do you get over that?

he must of had a brain chemistry issue right?


At no point have I made the claim that all depression is caused by inherent brain chemistry issues. I will readily admit that depression can be caused by traumatic life events. But how are you so sure that even in your one, hand-picked, example that you are right? Maybe he has dealt with the death of his dad, and even if his dad were still alive he would still be depressed? And even supposing that your psychoanalytic powers are that good, not everyone is like Clay.


don't talk about things you don't know. You have no idea what people have seen or been through.

An absolutely astonishing quote from you. Your entire hypothesis is predicated on the fact that you know that all people with depression have seen or been through something traumatic that caused it. Everyone has been through difficult life events. Not everyone deals with clinical depression.

Depression is not a monolithic entity. It covers a broad spectrum of disorders with have a variety of known and potential causes. Millions, probably billions, of dollars worth of research is being conducted on science to improve our understanding of the causes and effects. The fact that you are so sure that you have the answer for it all is really just pure arrogance.

OABB
09-22-2010, 06:44 PM
Presenting symptom of malignancy Depression may be a presenting symptom of some primary malignancies, most notably pancreatic carcinoma. Primary and metastatic brain tumors can cause frontal lobe disinhibition syndromes or personality changes that mimic depression and other psychiatric disorders.

From the next paragraph

I may be president. I'm sorry but if you guys are arguing in favor of a biological depression, you should stay away from the word MAY. They could just be saying this for grant money. It's not definitive. Cancer is. You can see it, test for it and cut it out. Mays and coulda are not the base of strong arguments.

OABB
09-22-2010, 06:46 PM
And somehow you do? You know for sure that every person who suffers from depression suffered through an event that caused it?



At no point have I made the claim that all depression is caused by inherent brain chemistry issues. I will readily admit that depression can be caused by traumatic life events. But how are you so sure that even in your one, hand-picked, example that you are right? Maybe he has dealt with the death of his dad, and even if his dad were still alive he would still be depressed? And even supposing that your psychoanalytic powers are that good, not everyone is like Clay.



An absolutely astonishing quote from you. Your entire hypothesis is predicated on the fact that you know that all people with depression have seen or been through something traumatic that caused it. Everyone has been through difficult life events. Not everyone deals with clinical depression.

Depression is not a monolithic entity. It covers a broad spectrum of disorders with have a variety of known and potential causes. Millions, probably billions, of dollars worth of research is being conducted on science to improve our understanding of the causes and effects. The fact that you are so sure that you have the answer for it all is really just pure arrogance.


It's not arrogance. The burden of proof is on you and the scientific community. They have failed to prove it. This is fact as I have shown many times.

I'm saying there is no substantial evidence outside of mays and coulds. Until there is a biological marker your theory is just that.

Seriously. Why can't you see this?

Popps
09-22-2010, 07:01 PM
no. she was in a drug trial, and she hung herself in the lab at Eli Lilly. This is a fact. She was not depressed. she was in the trial to see what would happen if an undepressed person took cymbalta. she killed herself. seriously.

The flip side of the argument is that she was given heavy doses, so if you want to refute, you can go there. It is not an opinion though. it is a fact. a real actual fact.

Like I said, people just wouldn't believe what goes on during these clinical trials. The example you cited is the tip of the iceberg.

But, Lilly probably didn't even have to disclose that because they're allowed to submit "processed" data to the FDA for consideration.


You people had better do your homework before putting a single drug in your body from this day forward. I mean, exhaustive research like your life depends on it.

baja
09-22-2010, 07:19 PM
Like I said, people just wouldn't believe what goes on during these clinical trials. The example you cited is the tip of the iceberg.

But, Lilly probably didn't even have to disclose that because they're allowed to submit "processed" data to the FDA for consideration.


You people had better do your homework before putting a single drug in your body from this day forward. I mean, exhaustive research like your life depends on it.

Here is an email i received 5 minutes ago, sorry it's kinda long but it's pertinent and important. I will forward the whole think to anyone interested;

The Senate Judiciary Committee is planning to debate - and approve - S.3767 as early as tomorrow, September 23, 2010. It is entirely likely that while moving this bill forward, the text of dangerous, Codex-friendly S.510 will be introduced into that bill as an amendment; perhaps even elements of the long-discredited fake dietary supplement "safety" bill, S.3002 might worm their way in... Right now, to the tooth gnashing frustration of the Uber Cartel, S.510 has been stalled by Senator Coburn's courageous hold on it. Please take a moment to tip your hat to Dr. Coburn and honor him for character unbecoming a politician: courage, the ability to act for the common good and willingness to buck the tide for what is clearly right. (Action Item No. 3 above.) Men and women of principle need to know that we know what they are doing and what they are facing for doing it!

We only have from the time you receive this email to the time when Committee consideration of S. 3767 is opened to make sure that two things occur:

1. The opposition to the bill is so enormous that it dies in committee and
2. There is simply no Senatorial will to attach S.510 as an amendment

Here is what you have to do, and do now, right now:

1. Take Each Of The Three Action Items Above Once For Each Member of Your Household - Again, If You Have Done It Before
2. Send an email to each of your colleagues, friends, family members, associates, etc., with the following message (or something like it):

"There are times when whether each of us acts or not can change history and, with it, our own destiny. Whether we can access clean, locally produced, organic food or not impacts our health, longevity and quality of life. So does whether we can access high potency nutrients. The Senate, at the behest of Big Agribiz and Big Pharma, is very close to passing legislation which will end those choices for us and bring in International standards (e.g., Codex Alimentarius) to restrict our freedoms and degrade our food.

The Senate Judiciary Committee will act to move these restrictions forward tomorrow, September 23, 2010. I am urging you to take the actions that I have already taken once on behalf of each member of my household and then to share this as rapidly as possible with each of the people whom you can reach electronically asking them to take these actions for their households and forward this item to their contacts, and so on.

Thank you for your activism and your prompt action to save our health and our freedom.

[YOUR NAME]"

What else can you do? Join Our 510/3767 Club

http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/?page_id=189






Emergency 2:
Halt Dangerous Flu Vaccines, including H1N1,
Once and For All Before More Babies Die

Stop the Shot3 Law Suit Moves Forward

The Natural Solutions Foundation's ground breaking Stop the Shot Law Suit is ready to move in for Round 3.

Round 1: We filed a law suit in the United States District Court for the District of Columbia when New York's Governor declared a universal mandate requiring the vaccination of every New York State HealthCare Worker. A couple days before New York State had to meet us in Federal Court, VOILA! NY decided that there was, in fact, not enough vaccine to go around and "temporarily suspended" the mandate. The Judge's comment? "Well, you've won!"

We raised the issue of the New Jersey preschool student mandate and he acknowledged that we could come back into his Court with plaintiffs who were under that state's mandate to vaccinate children in State Registered daycare facilities saying that he believed that the case should be tried.

Round 2: We prepared to come back into Court with plaintiffs whose young children were required to be vaccinated or face not being able to enroll in NJ State certified Day Care Institutions. Just days before the papers were scheduled to be filed in Federal Court, VOILA! NJ decided that there was, in fact, not enough vaccine to go around and suspended the mandate for that year. The Judge's comment would have been, "Well, you've won again!"

The Judge had suggested we return to court bringing some plaintiffs whose harm has already been made manifest. 'If there are women who have lost babies, please bring them into Court, too', was the message.

Round 3 had to wait for something to happen: First, the US CDC decided that although the absurd Level 6 Pandemic had officially been called off by the WHO, the un-safety-tested H1N1 Swine Flu vaccine would, for no reason that we can understand, be included in the seasonal flu shot and second, the CDC began recommending, as we predicted they would, universal flu vaccination for everyone 6 months and older (including pregnant women, which vaccinates babies who are not even born yet). Furthermore, it is recommended that all health care workers be forced to receive the vaccines. These recommendations are coming through the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) and are published on the official MMWR site. ACIP's recommendations are being turned into mandates by employers and school districts, thereby privatizing the mandate, and by states like New York for health care workers.

The absurd notion of "herd immunity" is being invoked like the rabbit in a hat that it is: if vaccines work, why does it matter what the vaccination status of the next person is? If vaccines work, the person receiving the vaccine would be protected and someone who chooses not to receive the vaccine could not pass the disease to the vaccinated... if vaccines worked. Cases of flu are among the top side effects of vaccination: scientific studies continue to show that immunity to the flu virus is, on the other hand, NOT among those side effects.

These vaccines are untested, unnecessary, unsafe, uninsurable and unthinkable once you understand what is at stake: your health AND your freedom.

So what do we need from you to make sure that this case goes ahead with as many strong plaintiffs and all the legal research and support that we need to win it? We need your donations. They are tax deductible and vitally needed. The costs of entering a Federal Court lawsuit are not small. We, frankly, do not have the money to do much more than we have already done.

Here is your invitation to join another club,
Whether you are a joiner or not.
It's the 42USC300aa/21USC351 Club

http://www.healthfreedomusa.org/?page_id=189


You see, 42 USC 300 is the National Vaccine Compensation Act section which says that a Special Vaccine Court with a Special Vaccine Master will preside over claims of vaccine injury and, if the plaintiff prevails, will award damages to the injured party or their survivors. It is the Court which recently found in favor of Hanah Polling, the vaccine injured autistic child who received 9 vaccines on the same day and promptly became unreacheable by her family or by life - she became an autistic child. That same law mandates that the Secretary of HHS make sure vaccines are as safe as they can be... How safe are they? Not safe at all.

OABB
09-22-2010, 08:33 PM
Good stuff popps and baja....

What is truly tragic is how trusting we are if something is ok'd by someone in the medical field. They are humans too. They make mistakes. They are greedy and niave too. Don't take something without doing your homework.

And certainly, when presented with a clear argument, such as I have awesomely done here, don't reject it because it comes from a peer. Sometimes people know what they are talking about.

And sometimes the multiple billion dollar corporation doesn't care about you. I know it's hard to fathom.

And..... you are fat because you eat too much and you are depressed because your life blows.

baja
09-22-2010, 09:10 PM
Good stuff popps and baja....

What is truly tragic is how trusting we are if something is ok'd by someone in the medical field. They are humans too. They make mistakes. They are greedy and niave too. Don't take something without doing your homework.

And certainly, when presented with a clear argument, such as I have awesomely done here, don't reject it because it comes from a peer. Sometimes people know what they are talking about.

And sometimes the multiple billion dollar corporation doesn't care about you. I know it's hard to fathom.

<b>And..... you are fat because you eat too much and you are depressed because your life blows.

It's ironic that you are making the same sweeping assumptions that those with whom you argue with do,only on the other side of the coin.

I disagree with both points in the part of your post that I bolded.

It's not that simple. It is not so much how much you eat but what you eat. If you stick to eating uncooked or lightly cooked local grown organic foods you can pretty much eat as much as you like and not get over weight and if you are overweight and make this life style change you will naturally and easily drop to your ideal weight.

2. There are chemical (hormonal) imbalances in the body that cause depression (often food related) that some of the current medications have an almost magic bullet effect in balancing out the person suffering and they go on to lead normal lives so if the meds. work there must have been something out of balance to work on.

I do agree that Spiritual disconnect leaves an emptiness (sense of something missing) that very often grows into what we call depression. The core mistake we all make is we thing we are separate beings and we are not.

Popps
09-22-2010, 09:24 PM
It's ironic that you are making the same sweeping assumptions that those with whom you argue with do,only on the other side of the coin.

I disagree with both points in the part of your post that I bolded.

It's not that simple. It is not so much how much you eat but what you eat. If you stick to eating uncooked or lightly cooked local grown organic foods you can pretty much eat as much as you like and not get over weight and if you are overweight and make this life style change you will naturally and easily drop to your ideal weight.

2. There are chemical (hormonal) imbalances in the body that cause depression (often food related) that some of the current medications have an almost magic bullet effect in balancing out the person suffering and they go on to lead normal lives so if the meds. work there must have been something out of balance to work on.

I do agree that Spiritual disconnect leaves an emptiness (sense of something missing) that very often grows into what we call depression. The core mistake we all make is we thing we are separate beings and we are not.

The chemical imbalance thing is sort of up for debate. Certainly, drug companies want depressed/anxious people to believe this because it moves their products. (See their commercials.) But, there's no clear science that tells us that depression is from a chemical imbalance in the brain.

Now, I DO believe that hormonal changes are a big culprit. (For men, and women.) I also don't rule out that certain people may have chemical issues, but there is certainly no proof of exactly which chemicals and which drugs would fix them. Antidepressants basically numb EVERYTHING. It's like carpet-bombing with drugs. You just hope it hits the depression first. Of course, there are tons of side effects and they haven't been studied for long-term use, but that's another story.

I'm not exactly sure what Orangeandblue is saying, either. But, anxiety and depression are very real disorders. They're debilitating for some people and certainly not imaginary or things people willfully create. Both anxiety and depression create real and measurable physical changes in the body, some of which can be dangerous in the long term. (Aside from the obvious discomfort and quality of life lost.)

The thing is, science is really behind the curve on understanding these things. Why? Because it's simply been easier to hand out drugs and hope people will improve in the short term.

Think about it... how much money would be behind research to naturally cure depression using cognitive therapy, exercise and natural supplements?

Now, how much money would be behind "curing" depression with drugs.

There's your answer if you're wondering why our doctors and scientists have such a lack of understanding of these disorders.

OABB
09-22-2010, 09:39 PM
The chemical imbalance thing is sort of up for debate. Certainly, drug companies want depressed/anxious people to believe this because it moves their products. (See their commercials.) But, there's no clear science that tells us that depression is from a chemical imbalance in the brain.

Now, I DO believe that hormonal changes are a big culprit. (For men, and women.) I also don't rule out that certain people may have chemical issues, but there is certainly no proof of exactly which chemicals and which drugs would fix them. Antidepressants basically numb EVERYTHING. It's like carpet-bombing with drugs. You just hope it hits the depression first. Of course, there are tons of side effects and they haven't been studied for long-term use, but that's another story.

I'm not exactly sure what Orangeandblue is saying, either. But, anxiety and depression are very real disorders. They're debilitating for some people and certainly not imaginary or things people willfully create. Both anxiety and depression create real and measurable physical changes in the body, some of which can be dangerous in the long term. (Aside from the obvious discomfort and quality of life lost.)

The thing is, science is really behind the curve on understanding these things. Why? Because it's simply been easier to hand out drugs and hope people will improve in the short term.

Think about it... how much money would be behind research to naturally cure depression using cognitive therapy, exercise and natural supplements?

Now, how much money would be behind "curing" depression with drugs.

There's your answer if you're wondering why our doctors and scientists have such a lack of understanding of these disorders.

I'm saying what you said in this post word for word.

My disconnect is probably that I am a tad bit angry in my posting. I know I can be douchey, but it's hard not to get mad at the logic of some people.

I see a country full of people hiding behind mystery illnesses because it suits them not having to work on themselves. It's maddening, and I am sorry to all that I get carried away sometimes.

The misfires people have are shocking to me. You can tell them clearly where the logic is flawed and they just ignore it.

It's like a world of jhns...How can I not get angry?

Why can't people just see that depression stems from depressing things and this only?

brain cancer, brain damage, retardation and so forth are real of course. and THEY WILL change your brain chemistry. I never denied that. But people aren't born depressed. I can say this emphatically because there is no evidence otherwise...and if you think about it it is really ****ing obvious.

depression is real. It is a problem. I would never suggest otherwise. It is because I care about people that I want to shout this from the rooftops. I don't want people to hide behind pseudo science because than they never deal with uncle willy's penis.

This disconnect from reality will make them even more depressed over time and reek havoc to the organism.

So many depressed people say that it is just the way they are born. Like drunks think being an alchoholic is a disease from birth. it's not. you just drink too much.

but no, that's too simple. and than people would have to question why they need to escape and drink and than they see uncle willy's penis and melt down.

depression is a disease like alcoholism and obesity, in the way that it isn't.

baja
09-22-2010, 09:49 PM
Orange & Blue - So many depressed people say that it is just the way they are born. <b>Like drunks think being an alchoholic is a disease from birth. it's not. you just drink too much. </b>

You could not be more wrong....

That was my first response

But after rereading it I have to agree with one part, I do not think you are born with it.

I can tell you this though from first hand experience. I drank alcoholically from my first drink at age 13.

Do you know what it means to drink alcoholically?

OABB
09-22-2010, 09:51 PM
It's ironic that you are making the same sweeping assumptions that those with whom you argue with do,only on the other side of the coin.

I disagree with both points in the part of your post that I bolded.

It's not that simple. It is not so much how much you eat but what you eat. If you stick to eating uncooked or lightly cooked local grown organic foods you can pretty much eat as much as you like and not get over weight and if you are overweight and make this life style change you will naturally and easily drop to your ideal weight.

2. There are chemical (hormonal) imbalances in the body that cause depression (often food related) that some of the current medications have an almost magic bullet effect in balancing out the person suffering and they go on to lead normal lives so if the meds. work there must have been something out of balance to work on.

I do agree that Spiritual disconnect leaves an emptiness (sense of something missing) that very often grows into what we call depression. The core mistake we all make is we thing we are separate beings and we are not.

this is why I chose my avatar...

There is no proof that these imbalances cause depression. Doctors have no idea what causes it. They thought it was seratonin and haven't been able to remotely prove it. Its a theory. theory is not scientific fact. I'm sorry but ITS NOT FACT! and what's to say depression doesn't cause these imbalances
(whatever they are?)



and there is no magic bullet medication in regards to depression.

except the bullet that is loaded in the gun before the person on anti-depressants goes on a killing spree.

OABB
09-22-2010, 09:52 PM
Orange & Blue - So many depressed people say that it is just the way they are born. <b>Like drunks think being an alchoholic is a disease from birth. it's not. you just drink too much. </b>

You could not be more wrong....

That was my first response

But after rereading it I have to agree with one part, I do not think you are born with it.

I can tell you this though from first hand experience. I drank alcoholically from my first drink at age 13.

Do you know what it means to drink alcoholically?

no. what does it mean?

and are you agreeing with me here or not? I'm confused.

baja
09-22-2010, 09:56 PM
where? I would love to see this. I am sure that it is interesting (the crap that is high fructose corn syrup and all) but like I have pointed out many times..do your homework.

where did you see this and what did it say exactly?

If you mean information on depression being food related there is so much out there I wouldn't know where to begin. If this is a serious query I will supply you with a few links if you will read the information.

OABB
09-22-2010, 09:58 PM
If you mean information on depression being food related there is so much out there I wouldn't know where to begin. If this is a serious query I will supply you with a few links if you will read the information.

I am, but I misread your post...I thought you were saying it was caused by food...(I do think diet can affect mood and I would love to see stuff..but you need to reread this post because I changed it in a very douchey way where I was much more condescending...)

baja
09-22-2010, 10:06 PM
no. what does it mean?

and are you agreeing with me here or not? I'm confused.

Are you saying there is no such thing as alcoholism?




If your position is that alcoholism is not a dis ease than I disagree.

I do agree it is a dis ease of the Spirit. The reason that the only reasonably successful treatment for Alcoholism is AA is because it is a Spiritual program.

Alcoholics drink differently that drinkers / lushes / heavy drinkers. Alcoholism is actually an allergy run wild. Lots and lots on good information on this.

OABB
09-22-2010, 10:12 PM
Are you saying there is no such thing as alcoholism?




If your position is that alcoholism is not a dis ease than I disagree.

I do agree it is a dis ease of the Spirit. The reason that the only reasonably successful treatment for Alcoholism is AA is because it is a Spiritual program.

Alcoholics drink differently that drinkers / lushes / heavy drinkers. Alcoholism is actually an allergy run wild. Lots and lots on good information on this.


I'm saying it's not a medical disease.

Dis ease? sure.

People actually by the crap that alcoholism, depression, obesity and being a general asshole are biological disorders that one can catch like aids or cancer.

I know a lot of drunks, and If it was a legitimate disease, I would have caught alcoholism by now. It's like one day you are fine and happy, and than an alcoholic sneezes on you and now you are one. people actually believe this.

I think a good stiff drink is an escape from depression or anxiety. I think people that drink to the point of blacking out are obvioulsy trying to black out on purpose because there are memories or issues they don't want to face...

But I'm an ahole apparantly so what do I know. Fatties, drunks and depressed losers just have a brain condition from birth I guess. poor guys.

baja
09-22-2010, 10:15 PM
this is why I chose my avatar...

There is no proof that these imbalances cause depression. Doctors have no idea what causes it. They thought it was seratonin and haven't been able to remotely prove it. Its a theory. theory is not scientific fact. I'm sorry but ITS NOT FACT! and what's to say depression doesn't cause these imbalances
(whatever they are?)



and there is no magic bullet medication in regards to depression.

except the bullet that is loaded in the gun before the person on anti-depressants goes on a killing spree.

You won't find a bigger enemy of the pharmaceutical industry than me on this board. They are corrupt to the core and could care less about the people taking there medications. This industry is the 4th largest killer in the nation by some calculations. But how do you explain the person that is helped by the medication for depression?

baja
09-22-2010, 10:17 PM
I'm saying it's not a medical disease.

Dis ease? sure.

People actually by the crap that alcoholism, depression, obesity and being a general a-hole are biological disorders that one can catch like aids or cancer.

I know a lot of drunks, and If it was a legitimate disease, I would have caught alcoholism by now. It's like one day you are fine and happy, and than an alcoholic sneezes on you and now you are one. people actually believe this.

I think a good stiff drink is an escape from depression or anxiety. I think people that drink to the point of blacking out are obvioulsy trying to black out on purpose because there are memories or issues they don't want to face...

But I'm an ahole apparantly so what do I know. Fatties, drunks and depressed losers just have a brain condition from birth I guess. poor guys.

You will need to define disease for me before we can continue.

baja
09-22-2010, 10:20 PM
I am, but I misread your post...I thought you were saying it was caused by food...(I do think diet can affect mood and I would love to see stuff..but you need to reread this post because I changed it in a very douchey way where I was much more condescending...)

Oh but I am saying some types of depression is caused by food.

Proof? Eliminate the culprit food (s) and the depression goes away.

OABB
09-22-2010, 10:22 PM
You won't find a bigger enemy of the pharmaceutical industry than me on this board. They are corrupt to the core and could care less about the people taking there medications. This industry is the 4th largest killer in the nation by some calculations. But how do you explain the person that is helped by the medication for depression?

They are numb. Like popps said it is basically carpet bombing symptoms.

Anti-depressants were actually only supposed to be prescribed in the most extreme cases for no more than 6 months. They numb the patient enough to keep them from comitting suicide. (unless of course your one of the many that actualy committed suicide from actually taking them).

It's the same as when someone gets high or drunk or whatever. They say they are feeling fine, or happy even. But that's of course because they are medicated.

Than they come down and all the stuff they were ignoring comes back.

Read the black label warning on these drugs now. They actually WARN of increased risk of suicide in people under 18. You have probably heard it in the commercials. That was the result of a huge lawsuit in England.

so while some people say these drugs help, others are shooting up their high schools, killing themselves or getting Tardive Diskonesia(sp? which looks like tourettes syndrome in the way of physical ticks and is incurable).

OABB
09-22-2010, 10:28 PM
edit:I quoted the wrong post of yours...I am responding to you asking me to define disease....

I know this one and it is a good argument. I have used the dis ease semantics before and I know what you are doing.

This is why I used the word medical disease when responding to your post. I have specifically argued about biological factors and physical detections and used medical diseases like cancer to make my point.

but for the sake of a good argument I will post it here:

dis·ease (d-zz)
n.
1. A pathological condition of a part, organ, or system of an organism resulting from various causes, such as infection, genetic defect, or environmental stress, and characterized by an identifiable group of signs or symptoms.
2. A condition or tendency, as of society, regarded as abnormal and harmful.
3. Obsolete Lack of ease; trouble.

so yes, technically a the definition could describe general unease.

But when I refer to "medical disease" I am talking about actual infections, viruses, tumors, etc.


here is the one from websters which is the most accurate I think

: a condition of the living animal or plant body or of one of its parts that impairs normal functioning and is typically manifested by distinguishing signs and symptoms : sickness, malady

baja
09-22-2010, 10:36 PM
They are numb. Like popps said it is basically carpet bombing symptoms.

Anti-depressants were actually only supposed to be prescribed in the most extreme cases for no more than 6 months. They numb the patient enough to keep them from comitting suicide. (unless of course your one of the many that actualy committed suicide from actually taking them).

It's the same as when someone gets high or drunk or whatever. They say they are feeling fine, or happy even. But that's of course because they are medicated.

Than they come down and all the stuff they were ignoring comes back.

Read the black label warning on these drugs now. They actually WARN of increased risk of suicide in people under 18. You have probably heard it in the commercials. That was the result of a huge lawsuit in England.

so while some people say these drugs help, others are shooting up their high schools, killing themselves or getting Tardive Diskonesia(sp? which looks like tourettes syndrome in the way of physical ticks and is incurable).

My level of expertise in the area of depression is very limited I admit. Also your (and Popps) point sounds reasonable, the numbing of sufferer. I will drop out this part of the discussion.

What I have come to understand is the human body is a most amazing organism that when given the right building block (food & herbs) can and does fight off all dis ease. As Bochamp said it is the (internal) terrain and not the germ that determines one's health. A healthy body is an unfit home for disease.

Read "Sick and Tired" by Robert O. Young


“Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food.”Hippocrates, 460 B.C.

OABB
09-22-2010, 10:43 PM
My level of expertise in the area of depression is very limited I admit. Also your (and Popps) point sounds reasonable, the numbing of sufferer. I will drop out this part of the discussion.

What I have come to understand is the human body is a most amazing organism that when given the right building block (food & herbs) can and does fight off all dis ease. As Bochamp said it is the (internal) terrain and not the germ that determines one's health. A healthy body is an unfit home for disease.

Read "Sick and Tired" by Robert O. Young


“Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food.”Hippocrates, 460 B.C.

thanks. I think I'm being reasonable too......

ANd the body is amazing..i agree. Depression can be cured by the person if they are willing to do the work. Depression is uncomfortable by design, because it is the bodies way of telling you to change.

if depression felt good, it wouldn't work.

baja
09-22-2010, 10:48 PM
thanks. I think I'm being reasonable too......

ANd the body is amazing..i agree. Depression can be cured by the person if they are willing to do the work. Depression is uncomfortable by design, because it is the bodies way of telling you to change.

if depression felt good, it wouldn't work.

You can not change your level of health by will alone if you are putting poison into your internal environment regularly, unless of course you are saintly enough to transcend the toxins and effects of the physical plane.

kappys
09-22-2010, 10:48 PM
I may be president. I'm sorry but if you guys are arguing in favor of a biological depression, you should stay away from the word MAY. They could just be saying this for grant money. It's not definitive. Cancer is. You can see it, test for it and cut it out. Mays and coulda are not the base of strong arguments.

Actually their use of may refers to the fact that the vast majority of patients with depression do not, in fact, have pancreatic cancer. In addition most pancreatic cancer patients do not have depression as their first symptom.

That said there exists a cohort of people who developed depression due to pancreatic cancer.

As for your reference to may in medical literature you should stop quickly. Smoking may cause lung cancer - it does not always do so. Do you dispute that smoking does in fact cause lung cancer in some persons? Or that some people develop lung cancer having never smoked in their lives? Few things are universal when it comes to the human body and medicine hence may is peppered across the majority of medical literature.

baja
09-22-2010, 10:58 PM
thanks. I think I'm being reasonable too......

ANd the body is amazing..i agree. Depression can be cured by the person if they are willing to do the work. Depression is uncomfortable by design, because it is the bodies way of telling you to change.

if depression felt good, it wouldn't work.

I think we agree more that we disagree. I am in the early days of a prolonged fast. Traditionally these are the days of the most mental foggyness and I see I am not writing very clearly.

OABB
09-22-2010, 11:01 PM
Actually their use of may refers to the fact that the vast majority of patients with depression do not, in fact, have pancreatic cancer. In addition most pancreatic cancer patients do not have depression as their first symptom.

That said there exists a cohort of people who developed depression due to pancreatic cancer.

As for your reference to may in medical literature you should stop quickly. Smoking may cause lung cancer - it does not always do so. Do you dispute that smoking does in fact cause lung cancer in some persons? Or that some people develop lung cancer having never smoked in their lives? Few things are universal when it comes to the human body and medicine hence may is peppered across the majority of medical literature.





I know that a heart stopping will kill you, or that if your spinal cord is cut in half completely you will be paralyzed. I know that if you don't drink water you will dehydrate and than die. I know that viagra gives you a 4 hour boner. I know that fire is hot and will burn your skin and set of a reflex to your brain. I know that if you mix pop rocks with pepsi your head will explode. I KNOW all this because it is proven by science.

Why do people get cancer? do you know what is the cause? You should publish it. you would be a millionaire.

The fact is MAY is peppered throughtout psuedo science and theoretical science, not actual science.

Will the sun come up tomorrow? you betcha. You know why? Because the earth rotates every 24 hours. It always does, not may rise, will rise. I read that in a science book.

OABB
09-22-2010, 11:05 PM
I think we agree more that we disagree. I am in the early days of a prolonged fast. Traditionally these are the days of the most mental foggyness and I see I am not writing very clearly.

Most people agree with me on this issue. They are called "smart people" or "scientists".

Although there are some people on this site who have read otherwise on the interwebz and they disagree, and rightfully so. I mean they heard it on a commercial once or had a friend tell them it was true.

baja
09-22-2010, 11:09 PM
Most people agree with me on this issue. They are called "smart people" or "scientists".

Although there are some people on this site who have read otherwise on the interwebz and they disagree, and rightfully so. I mean they heard it on a commercial once or had a friend tell them it was true.

I am prompted to say being condescending will not help you spread your truth.

OABB
09-22-2010, 11:18 PM
I am prompted to say being condescending will not help you spread your truth.

I know. I am seeing that as my biggest problem when I reread this thread. I have really kicked ass here and am alarmed that it doesn't seem to be getting through. I know if I wasn't such a doucher I could get through to more people but I am not mature enough to be that guy yet. I am working on it. Anger motivates me especially on an internet bb. I am not alone in this I believe. I have a bloated sense of self but my heart is really in the right place and I know what I am talking about. I care deeply about people and sometimes my narcissism becomes unbearable.

But, I'm still telling the truth in this thread. I researched this stuff for years while working on a documentary about ssri's. I never got the money to make it, but the work was done.

kappys
09-22-2010, 11:36 PM
I know that a heart stopping will kill you, or that if your spinal cord is cut in half completely you will be paralyzed. I know that if you don't drink water you will dehydrate and than die. I know that viagra gives you a 4 hour boner. I know that fire is hot and will burn your skin and set of a reflex to your brain. I know that if you mix pop rocks with pepsi your head will explode. I KNOW all this because it is proven by science.

Why do people get cancer? do you know what is the cause? You should publish it. you would be a millionaire.

The fact is MAY is peppered throughtout psuedo science and theoretical science, not actual science.

Will the sun come up tomorrow? you betcha. You know why? Because the earth rotates every 24 hours. It always does, not may rise, will rise. I read that in a science book.

Really because I read in a "science book" that smoking causes cancer.

So now you agree not everyone who smokes gets cancer and not everyone who drinks gets cirrhosis so lets all start smoking 4 packs a day and downing a pint right? Afterall, its not proven that we will get these nasty diseases.

Might as well abandon 90% of medicine right there. Why take any medication at all since none of them are 100% effective? To use your examples above not everyone who takes viagra gets durable erections on demand.

I don't know the cause of cancer, but I do know that it exists and that smoking is one of the causes of lung cancer, as is radon, for example. Do you deny that these cause cancer? Is it possible that certain diseases have more than one potential root cause, and in fact probable that most diseases have multiple root causes?

Also what the hell are they paying that Hawking guy for anyways? After all most of his work is theoretical and hence outside of science according to your criteria.

baja
09-22-2010, 11:47 PM
The chemical imbalance thing is sort of up for debate. Certainly, drug companies want depressed/anxious people to believe this because it moves their products. (See their commercials.) But, there's no clear science that tells us that depression is from a chemical imbalance in the brain.

Now, I DO believe that hormonal changes are a big culprit. (For men, and women.) I also don't rule out that certain people may have chemical issues, but there is certainly no proof of exactly which chemicals and which drugs would fix them. Antidepressants basically numb EVERYTHING. It's like carpet-bombing with drugs. You just hope it hits the depression first. Of course, there are tons of side effects and they haven't been studied for long-term use, but that's another story.

I'm not exactly sure what Orangeandblue is saying, either. But, anxiety and depression are very real disorders. They're debilitating for some people and certainly not imaginary or things people willfully create. Both anxiety and depression create real and measurable physical changes in the body, some of which can be dangerous in the long term. (Aside from the obvious discomfort and quality of life lost.)

The thing is, science is really behind the curve on understanding these things. Why? Because it's simply been easier to hand out drugs and hope people will improve in the short term.

Think about it... how much money would be behind research to naturally cure depression using cognitive therapy, exercise and natural supplements?

Now, how much money would be behind "curing" depression with drugs.

There's your answer if you're wondering why our doctors and scientists have such a lack of understanding of these disorders.

Good post Popps you have made me rethink an unquestioned belief and I have found it wanting. It's always a good thing when one digs out those false beliefs that do not serve inorder to make room for the truth.

kappys
09-22-2010, 11:53 PM
Think about it... how much money would be behind research to naturally cure depression using cognitive therapy, exercise and natural supplements?

Now, how much money would be behind "curing" depression with drugs.

There's your answer if you're wondering why our doctors and scientists have such a lack of understanding of these disorders.

But it goes deeper than that I think - people want quick fixes and the easy way out. A pill a day to stay happy - that's Aldous Huxleys dreammare. Intensive introspective CBT combined with a natural healthy diet and exercise require a lot more work than popping a pill even though they will actually yield a long term result.

OABB
09-22-2010, 11:54 PM
Really because I read in a "science book" that smoking causes cancer.

So now you agree not everyone who smokes gets cancer and not everyone who drinks gets cirrhosis so lets all start smoking 4 packs a day and downing a pint right? Afterall, its not proven that we will get these nasty diseases.

Smoke in the lungs is not good for the body. Our lungs prefer oxygen(O2 its called). So if you smoke you are going against the bodies system you may get side effects. like cancer. which is why we shouldn't put things in our bodies that are unhealthy. like anti-depressant drugs. good point!


Might as well abandon 90% of medicine right there. Why take any medication at all since none of them are 100% effective? To use your examples above not everyone who takes viagra gets durable erections on demand.

no need. these medicines have actually tested better than placebo in trials for the most part and therefore actually work most of the time. unlike ssri's

I don't know the cause of cancer, but I do know that it exists and that smoking is one of the causes of lung cancer, as is radon, for example. Do you deny that these cause cancer? Is it possible that certain diseases have more than one potential root cause, and in fact probable that most diseases have multiple root causes?

sure.

Also what the hell are they paying that Hawking guy for anyways? After all most of his work is theoretical and hence outside of science according to your criteria.
I have no idea. people love to hear big words and take theory as fact. It's human nature. But yes, that guy offers nothing more than coffee table book fodder.



in bold.


also it's important to note that the "mays" argument refers to clinical trails and not general everyday usage of medicines.

A trial or theory proposed must test better than placebo and yield similar results in multiple tests, no?

so in regards to you linking cancer with depression, may is not a good link.

sure viagra may not get everyone hard, but viagra showed more than a "may cause a boner" in it's trials. The lab coats were pitched tents.

OABB
09-22-2010, 11:57 PM
But it goes deeper than that I think - people want quick fixes and the easy way out. A pill a day to stay happy - that's Aldous Huxleys dreammare. Intensive introspective CBT combined with a natural healthy diet and exercise require a lot more work than popping a pill even though they will actually yield a long term result.

I must really suck at communicating. I swear that i have been saying this all along and yet we are arguing.

OABB
09-22-2010, 11:59 PM
Good post Popps you have made me rethink an unquestioned belief and I have found it wanting. It's always a good thing when one digs out those false beliefs that do not serve inorder to make room for the truth.

ok... i do suck.

baja
09-23-2010, 12:01 AM
ok... i do suck.

No your input helped too. but since you chose to be condescending I left you off the credit post ;D

kappys
09-23-2010, 12:04 AM
Meh lots of things are beneficial but it also depends on the dose.

Too much oxygen in your lungs --> death (try breathing a 100% for a few days)

Too much vitamin B6 --> peripheral neuropathy

Too much water --> hyponatremia(low sodium its called) and death

Try with other chemicals too - you'll see how the game ends.

I would have to find the trial that compares SSRI to placebo - any links? My bet is they are mostly compared to each other or to older TCA's in non-inferiority trials. Maybe TCA's were tested against placebo, not sure there.

IMO SSRI have a definite role in treating depression and are probably of value for about 6 months or so, after that their effectiveness is lost. Those 6 months can be valuable time for a person to start pursuing some sort of cognitive therapy along with changes in lifestyle including diet and exercise that can effect a permanent cure. Similar to heroin addiction much of the treatment has to start after the acute withdrawal period is over.

Are SSRI's overused? Absolutely and by the truckload, but IMO much of that has to do with wanting a quick fix and the current insurance-healthcare-payment model.

kappys
09-23-2010, 12:05 AM
I must really suck at communicating. I swear that i have been saying this all along and yet we are arguing.

I feel its more that you've drawn a line in the sand - Depression is not biological, period. SSRI's or other antidepressants are of no value, period. That's what I disagree with. But perhaps I've misread your posts.

OABB
09-23-2010, 12:06 AM
No your input helped too. but since you chose to be condescending I left you off the credit post ;D

oh. o.k. Can't pricks make good points too?

baja
09-23-2010, 12:08 AM
oh. o.k. Can't pricks make good points too?

Sure your living proof. ;D

j/k

OABB
09-23-2010, 12:12 AM
I feel its more that you've drawn a line in the sand - Depression is not biological, period. SSRI's or other antidepressants are of no value, period. That's what I disagree with. But perhaps I've misread your posts.

depression is biological in the sense the organism is affected biologically.

My WHOLE point is that your innate and genetic biology is not the cause of depression, environment is. Of course brain damage or drugs can cause depression, but you aren't born with it. That is my point.

There are no well adjusted families with two normal kids and one who is depressed for no reason. He may be retarded, or schitzo, or autistic, but not merely depressed. i don't buy it.

Again, if it is discovered that I am wrong I will gladly retract all of this. But seeing as there is NO evidence at all that people are born depressed I am confident that my condescending nature can remain for all of you to enjoy.

and as far as the drugs, i'm the one that brought up the 6 month plan of action and so obviously I think they are helpfull for numbing the patient. But so is alcohol, and alcohol is a lot less damaging to the body.

kappys
09-23-2010, 12:22 AM
depression is biological in the sense the organism is affected biologically.

My WHOLE point is that your innate and genetic biology is not the cause of depression, environment is. Of course brain damage or drugs can cause depression, but you aren't born with it. That is my point.

There are no well adjusted families with two normal kids and one who is depressed for no reason. He may be retarded, or schitzo, or autistic, but not merely depressed. i don't buy it.

Again, if it is discovered that I am wrong I will gladly retract all of this. But seeing as there is NO evidence at all that people are born depressed I am confident that my condescending nature can remain for all of you to enjoy.

and as far as the drugs, i'm the one that brought up the 6 month plan of action and so obviously I think they are helpfull for numbing the patient. But so is alcohol, and alcohol is a lot less damaging to the body.

I do disagree on the alcohol point - alcohol IMO is not as effective as SSRI for short term depression tx. I'm sure there is no study comparing the two. At any rate the value of SSRI is that it provides some energy to the patient, which is what allows for some the apathetic depressed folks to garner the energy to kill themselves. Nonetheless that energy can be harvested for good gains as opposed to alcohol.

As for genetics you are right at the moment but who knows what the future holds. The list of genetic diseases that don't manifest until adulthood or later is pretty extensive, and those kids are born normally. Other things such as allergies or asthma have huge environmental influences, but with strong genetic ties as well. Whether or not genes play a role doesn't matter much to me. If it is so what? It can be overcome and playing the victim card won't do anything to help people who suffer with it.

Beantown Bronco
09-23-2010, 06:21 AM
WHAT? whose using opinions now? A non depressed patient taking part in a drug trial with a drug KNOWN for increasing suicidal risks in patients killing herself in the lab is an opinion?

I have an excellent opportunity in real estate for you. pm if interested.

I'll try this again for those in the cheap seats (ie, you):

She was a patient taking part in a drug trial. Fact.
She killed herself. Fact.

Those are the only true undebatable facts. Unless you are holding back more information, EVERYTHING ELSE is opinion. I'm not guessing. This is what I do for a living.

Can you PROVE the drug made her do it? To do so you would have to prove things such as the following:

She had no contact with anyone in her outside life. No chance she was broken up with by a longtime boyfriend, got word of a close family member's death, etc. No chance she started a relationship with someone else in the trial that ended badly during the trial. No chance that she was in fact a depressed individual and didn't know it or simply lied on her entrance questionnaire because she needed the money. No chance she knew what the study was about, was an anti-drug activist and wanted to make a statement. No chance of any of this?

You readily admit that "environment causes depression." Maybe the prison-like isolation she went through in the study itself made her do it and the drug had nothing to do with it at all.....

Any number of things could've made her kill herself. Saying "the drug did it" when there has been no ruling of any kind stating that, is grounds for a lawsuit actually. I'd be careful where you go with those statements.

bowtown
09-23-2010, 06:24 AM
I love drugs.

baja
09-23-2010, 06:56 AM
and it shows... ;D

OABB
09-23-2010, 08:13 AM
I'll try this again for those in the cheap seats (ie, you):

She was a patient taking part in a drug trial. Fact.
She killed herself. Fact.

Those are the only true undebatable facts. Unless you are holding back more information, EVERYTHING ELSE is opinion. I'm not guessing. This is what I do for a living.

Can you PROVE the drug made her do it? To do so you would have to prove things such as the following:

She had no contact with anyone in her outside life. No chance she was broken up with by a longtime boyfriend, got word of a close family member's death, etc. No chance she started a relationship with someone else in the trial that ended badly during the trial. No chance that she was in fact a depressed individual and didn't know it or simply lied on her entrance questionnaire because she needed the money. No chance she knew what the study was about, was an anti-drug activist and wanted to make a statement. No chance of any of this?

You readily admit that "environment causes depression." Maybe the prison-like isolation she went through in the study itself made her do it and the drug had nothing to do with it at all.....

Any number of things could've made her kill herself. Saying "the drug did it" when there has been no ruling of any kind stating that, is grounds for a lawsuit actually. I'd be careful where you go with those statements.


Seeing as the case was settled out of court it is impossible to get anyb
facts on the case it will be hard to say anything more. For some strange reason Eli Lilly felt paying millions of dollars to silence the family was a good choice. Perhaps if she had broken up with her boyfriend or ever showed a shred of depression in any way shape or form, Eli Lilly could have used this to save face.

But nope. They shelled out the big bucks. I'm guessing your job is pr for BP?

Beantown Bronco
09-23-2010, 08:28 AM
Seeing as the case was settled out of court it is impossible to get anyb
facts on the case it will be hard to say anything more. For some strange reason Eli Lilly felt paying millions of dollars to silence the family was a good choice. Perhaps if she had broken up with her boyfriend or ever showed a shred of depression in any way shape or form, Eli Lilly could have used this to save face.

But nope. They shelled out the big bucks. I'm guessing your job is pr for BP?

good. so we're in agreement on facts vs. opinion.

Big companies like Eli Lilly? Not so little-known-fact: they instruct their counsel to settle ALL suits brought against them (even if they are not guilty in any way.....shocking) unless the claims are not just 100% bogus, but also either guaranteed to be dismissed early in pre-trial stages and/or the demands are ridiculously high.

OABB
09-23-2010, 08:31 AM
good. so we're in agreement on facts vs. opinion.

Big companies like Eli Lilly? Not so little-known-fact: they instruct their counsel to settle ALL suits brought against them (even if they are not guilty in any way.....shocking) unless the claims are not just 100% bogus, but also either guaranteed to be dismissed early in pre-trial stages and/or the demands are ridiculously high.

Yes. It is also opinion that oj mudered his wife and Ron Goldman. I like how you think.

Beantown Bronco
09-23-2010, 08:38 AM
Yes. It is also opinion that oj mudered his wife and Ron Goldman. I like how you think.

Well, technically it is. If someone stated it as fact say, on tv or in a public forum, they could be sued.

Though the two situations couldn't be more different, so comparing them is, well, odd.

OABB
09-23-2010, 08:52 AM
Well, technically it is. If someone stated it as fact say, on tv or in a public forum, they could be sued.

Though the two situations couldn't be more different, so comparing them is, well, odd.

I guess it comes down to perspective. I think when a non depressed person takes large quantities of a drug that is known to cause suicidal thoughts kills herslef in the lab that is overdosing her with the suicide pills, saying the drugs had something to do with it is the normal reaction.

But you think when the company silences the family and seals allthe medical records it's just standard business practice. The oj example I used was to show that even though the outcome of the trial didn't point to the murders as fact, it's pretty ****ing obvious.

Are you a corporate lawyer perchance?

baja
09-23-2010, 08:56 AM
I guess it comes down to perspective. I think when a non depressed person takes large quantities of a drug that is known to cause suicidal thoughts kills herslef in the lab that is overdosing her with the suicide pills, saying the drugs had something to do with it is the normal reaction.

But you think when the company silences the family and seals allthe medical records it's just standard business practice. The oj example I used was to show that even though the outcome of the trial didn't point to the murders as fact, it's pretty ****ing obvious.

Are you a corporate lawyer perchance?

Think about it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8ztmhONi4k

http://civicsnews.blogspot.com/2009/05/trudeau-bilderberg-elite-mass.html

Beantown Bronco
09-23-2010, 09:06 AM
I guess it comes down to perspective. I think when a non depressed person takes large quantities of a drug that is known to cause suicidal thoughts kills herslef in the lab that is overdosing her with the suicide pills, saying the drugs had something to do with it is the normal reaction.

Yup, nowhere do I even attempt to disagree with this. All I'm saying is that this "normal reaction" doesn't make something fact. It is the very definition of opinion.

But you think when the company silences the family and seals allthe medical records it's just standard business practice.

Ummm, because IT IS. I'm not saying it's right. I'm not saying I agree with it. I'm saying that it's what happens every day....innocent or guilty. That's just the way it is. Every big business has their formula for % chance of being found criminally responsible x the potential losses + amount of legal fees / the cost to simply settle the case and they make the call.

Go watch the movie Michael Clayton. While it is obviously a "Hollywood-ized" version of what happens, it has some very real elements to it and is a great, highly underrated movie.

The oj example I used was to show that even though the outcome of the trial didn't point to the murders as fact, it's pretty ****ing obvious.

That's fine. That's your opinion. And even if I agree with that opinion....even if every other person other than the jury in the case agrees with your opinion, it doesn't make it fact.

OABB
09-23-2010, 09:40 AM
Yup, nowhere do I even attempt to disagree with this. All I'm saying is that this "normal reaction" doesn't make something fact. It is the very definition of opinion.



Ummm, because IT IS. I'm not saying it's right. I'm not saying I agree with it. I'm saying that it's what happens every day....innocent or guilty. That's just the way it is. Every big business has their formula for % chance of being found criminally responsible x the potential losses + amount of legal fees / the cost to simply settle the case and they make the call.

Go watch the movie Michael Clayton. While it is obviously a "Hollywood-ized" version of what happens, it has some very real elements to it and is a great, highly underrated movie.



That's fine. That's your opinion. And even if I agree with that opinion....even if every other person other than the jury in the case agrees with your opinion, it doesn't make it fact.

fair enough. I just feel on some level of humanity that her death shall not be in vain. It certainly adds to the suspicion of these drugs.

mkporter
09-23-2010, 02:27 PM
It's not arrogance. The burden of proof is on you and the scientific community. They have failed to prove it. This is fact as I have shown many times.

I'm saying there is no substantial evidence outside of mays and coulds. Until there is a biological marker your theory is just that.

Seriously. Why can't you see this?

This issue is personal for me, so I'm fairly passionate about it. I don't really want to make the discussion personal with you, which is where this is heading, as I typically enjoy most of what you post on other topics.

Given that, I'm going to try and step away gracefully (and probably epically fail) so I don't continue to waste so much time when I should be working.

I think you've demonstrated the following with your arguments:

1)Anti-depressants are medications with often very serious side-effects.
I totally agree. It does not seem unlikely that they contributed to the suicide of this girl in the study. In no way should should her death be in vain. The pharmaceutical companies who engage in the cover up of negative results should face serious repercussions. The medical community (and the public) deserve the full picture about these drugs so that their use can be properly evaluated.

2) Anti depressants are over-prescribed
Also agree here. Given the risk/reward profile of these drugs, way too many people take them. There a several factors at play here. The risk of these drugs has been downplayed through suppression of clinical trials and over-zealous marketing by the drug companies, and the withholding of accurate information by some doctors. I also really don't think these drugs should be prescribed by your general practitioner, but they frequently are. Proper monitoring and psychiatric evaluation is critical, and should be performed by a specialist. Another big part of the blame goes to people who would rather just pop a pill than put in the work to make changes to their life and work through therapy. These people over estimate the reward, and greatly under estimate the risk.

3) Anti-depressants are not a cure
I agree. They are a treatment which purports to lesson the depressive symptoms that a person may suffer from.

4) There are effective treatment besides drugs
Very much agree. The brain is a complicated place. Many different types of therapy have shown to help clinically depressed people. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) is often successfully used to help people train themselves to think in patterns which can help avoid depressive episodes. Talk therapy, or traditional psychotherapy, which you advocate, has been shown to help many people. Exercise has been shown to have very positive effects on many depressive disorders. Meditation as noted elsewhere in the thread has positive benefits, as well.

Here are the points I'll leave you with (I don't expect to change your mind, but I'd a least hope you'll consider them)

1) Depression encompasses a very wide range of disorders. There are people who suffer from persistent depressive episodes which majorly impact their quality of life. These people are not just sad, or mopey. They are also not irresponsible or weak.

2) There are likely inherited factors which effect a persons ability to manage stress and negative life events. Studies have actually linked this phenomenon to specific genetic sequences:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12869766

3) While the efficacy of antidepressants is inconsistent, and often times unpredictable, they do produce positive clinical results in many patients. I have been a witness to this. I have also witnessed that for a given individual, each anti-depressant has differing levels of efficacy. Professionals that I have discussed this with say that it is typical that they will have to try several different medications to find one that works well for a patient. Quite frankly, some of them are disasters for some people.

4) RIP Kenny.

5) Go Broncos

6) You are an arrogant butthole. :giggle: <--- This is the graceful part.

OABB
09-23-2010, 02:36 PM
This issue is personal for me, so I'm fairly passionate about it. I don't really want to make the discussion personal with you, which is where this is heading, as I typically enjoy most of what you post on other topics.

Given that, I'm going to try and step away gracefully (and probably epically fail) so I don't continue to waste so much time when I should be working.

I think you've demonstrated the following with your arguments:

1)Anti-depressants are medications with often very serious side-effects.
I totally agree. It does not seem unlikely that they contributed to the suicide of this girl in the study. In no way should should her death be in vain. The pharmaceutical companies who engage in the cover up of negative results should face serious repercussions. The medical community (and the public) deserve the full picture about these drugs so that their use can be properly evaluated.

2) Anti depressants are over-prescribed
Also agree here. Given the risk/reward profile of these drugs, way too many people take them. There a several factors at play here. The risk of these drugs has been downplayed through suppression of clinical trials and over-zealous marketing by the drug companies, and the withholding of accurate information by some doctors. I also really don't think these drugs should be prescribed by your general practitioner, but they frequently are. Proper monitoring and psychiatric evaluation is critical, and should be performed by a specialist. Another big part of the blame goes to people who would rather just pop a pill than put in the work to make changes to their life and work through therapy. These people over estimate the reward, and greatly under estimate the risk.

3) Anti-depressants are not a cure
I agree. They are a treatment which purports to lesson the depressive symptoms that a person may suffer from.

4) There are effective treatment besides drugs
Very much agree. The brain is a complicated place. Many different types of therapy have shown to help clinically depressed people. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) is often successfully used to help people train themselves to think in patterns which can help avoid depressive episodes. Talk therapy, or traditional psychotherapy, which you advocate, has been shown to help many people. Exercise has been shown to have very positive effects on many depressive disorders. Meditation as noted elsewhere in the thread has positive benefits, as well.

Here are the points I'll leave you with (I don't expect to change your mind, but I'd a least hope you'll consider them)

1) Depression encompasses a very wide range of disorders. There are people who suffer from persistent depressive episodes which majorly impact their quality of life. These people are not just sad, or mopey. They are also not irresponsible or weak.

2) There are likely inherited factors which effect a persons ability to manage stress and negative life events. Studies have actually linked this phenomenon to specific genetic sequences:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12869766

3) While the efficacy of antidepressants is inconsistent, and often times unpredictable, they do produce positive clinical results in many patients. I have been a witness to this. I have also witnessed that for a given individual, each anti-depressant has differing levels of efficacy. Professionals that I have discussed this with say that it is typical that they will have to try several different medications to find one that works well for a patient. Quite frankly, some of them are disasters for some people.

4) RIP Kenny.

5) Go Broncos

6) You are an arrogant butthole. :giggle: <--- This is the graceful part.


I actually think we agree on 99 percent of things. I just don't believe it is inherited or innate. I believe it is real and dangerous. I don't think depressed people are weak either. I think they are depressed for good reason. I believe these reasons are environmental.

As the old saying goes(it's mine) youre depressed because your life has depressing things in it.

If you don't want to be depressed you must change your life. I think this is ho humans survived for thousands of years, and this movement for it being out of your control is very dangerous. If people believe this than they will never dothe work.

mkporter
09-23-2010, 02:58 PM
I actually think we agree on 99 percent of things. I just don't believe it is inherited or innate. I believe it is real and dangerous. I don't think depressed people are weak either. I think they are depressed for good reason. I believe these reasons are environmental.


Agreed. I certainly believe that there are environmental causes as well.


If you don't want to be depressed you must change your life. I think this is ho humans survived for thousands of years, and this movement for it being out of your control is very dangerous. If people believe this than they will never dothe work.

I agree with you to a point here, but there are a lot of humans who didn't survive because they fell victim to suicide, and since the advent of modern anti-depressants, there is evidence that the suicide rate has declined. (http://www.jad-journal.com/article/S0165-0327%2806%2900172-8/abstract) To me, this is the equivalent of people who say "Who needs all this fancy medical equipment, women have been giving birth for centuries, we know how to do it!" When until fairly recently, women died in childbirth at a staggering rate.

I accept that you aren't convinced that genetics has any role in depression, and maybe I'm wrong and it doesn't. But I do hope that you'll keep an open mind to the possibility.

OABB
09-23-2010, 03:09 PM
Agreed. I certainly believe that there are environmental causes as well.



I agree with you to a point here, but there are a lot of humans who didn't survive because they fell victim to suicide, and since the advent of modern anti-depressants, there is evidence that the suicide rate has declined. (http://www.jad-journal.com/article/S0165-0327%2806%2900172-8/abstract) To me, this is the equivalent of people who say "Who needs all this fancy medical equipment, women have been giving birth for centuries, we know how to do it!" When until fairly recently, women died in childbirth at a staggering rate.

I accept that you aren't convinced that genetics has any role in depression, and maybe I'm wrong and it doesn't. But I do hope that you'll keep an open mind to the possibility.

My mind is always open. That's how I became so super smart.

baja
09-23-2010, 03:23 PM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/image.php?u=7839&dateline=1266905295

mkporter
09-23-2010, 03:29 PM
My mind is always open. That's how I became so super smart.

Got it. I had assumed it was granted to you by Him. :tebow: