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View Full Version : Moreno = K. Faulk


ZONA
09-20-2010, 10:06 PM
To me, I think it's becoming more clear every game, Moreno is going to be what Kevin Faulk was in NE. Now some people might think I'm slamming the guy but not really. While Kevin Faulk was definitely no Marshall Faulk, he was still a solid productive back who did several things very well, just nothing great. Moreno does show a ton of toughness out there on the turf. He does tough out some hard yards and if you don't think so you're blind. He catches the ball well and can block good enough. He's probably not going to break many long runs but he'll get a few here and there like he did Sunday. I have reached the verdict though that he's not going to be a great back. A solid player and one I think will make alot of nice plays for the Broncos but we are going to need another solid RB to help carry the load. He's just not going to make ENOUGH big plays to be a feature back. Again, not ripping the guy, he's steady, but for the Broncos offense to get to another level, I think we need another RB. Maybe when Maroney gets healthy, he can provide that extra boost. Those 2 healthy I think can be pretty good.

Popps
09-20-2010, 10:08 PM
Let's learn to block first and then make definitive judgments.

That One Guy
09-20-2010, 10:10 PM
Let's learn to block first and then make definitive judgments.

Exactly. When an OL is blocking, everyone looks like LT in his prime. When an OL isn't blocking, everyone looks like a RB stuck behind a crappy line.

ZONA
09-20-2010, 10:14 PM
Let's learn to block first and then make definitive judgments.

Nah, I've watched a ton of his running plays over and over and you just always get the feeling he left yards out there. Just a little to much hesitation here and there. I think great backs find ways to get yards even with so so blocking. Great backs help set up blocking. You can't just say hey OLmen, go out and pancake everybody on every play. That's not how blocking happens at the NFL level. You need backs who can feel running lanes out, set up defenders, and so on. As I said, I think Moreno does a decent job at these things, he just doesn't have that special something the great ones do. Are you saying you think he's going to be a great back?

Baba Booey
09-20-2010, 10:22 PM
More often than not, Moreno gets the ball with either a guy or two in his face, or no hole whatsoever to run through.

footstepsfrom#27
09-20-2010, 10:44 PM
Theh problem with trying to evaluate this guy at this point in the game is that he really hasn't been terribly healthy for most of his time here, starting with the injury last year then the hammy again this time around...I'm more concerned about whether he's injury prone at this point than anything else. But while I agree with the OP that he does seem to leave yards on the field, it's also true that I don't think we've really seen this guy at his top level performance yet. Mix in the ugly blocking and you've got reason to take a wait and see approach here. I'm hopeful for Maroney though as well...speed to turn the corner is one thing missing on this offense and he provides that out of the backfield which could really pop things loose for our WR's downfield as well.

SoCalBronco
09-20-2010, 10:47 PM
Moreno has an extremely annoying running style...he dances a ton, often times unnecessarily and he does leave yards on the field that way....but he definitely flashes talent and had that great play this week in space on that pass play. I'll reserve judgement until the OL looks like something more than dog****, though.

Popps
09-20-2010, 11:22 PM
Nah, I've watched a ton of his running plays over and over and you just always get the feeling he left yards out there. Just a little to much hesitation here and there. I think great backs find ways to get yards even with so so blocking. Great backs help set up blocking. You can't just say hey OLmen, go out and pancake everybody on every play. That's not how blocking happens at the NFL level. You need backs who can feel running lanes out, set up defenders, and so on. As I said, I think Moreno does a decent job at these things, he just doesn't have that special something the great ones do. Are you saying you think he's going to be a great back?

I think he could be... but more likely, he'll be part of a combo that will be effective. He can pound a team down when he's given enough space to make initial forward progress. He's not Chris Johnson, and he won't rip off a lot of long runs. But, he's effective at gaining chunks of yards when the blocking is there. We don't need to pancake people on every play, but the guy needs some space to work with. That's the kind of back he is. He can't have 3 ****ers draped on him as he takes the snap.

I think he's a 1200 yard rusher with good blocking. He ran for about 1K last year with ****ty blocking.

He's also useful in the passing game and tends to get into the endzone quite a bit.

I also think we need a dependable #2 back with some speed to mix in with him.

ZONA
09-21-2010, 01:03 AM
Yeah, I'm not giving up on the kid at all, I just feel on too many runs where there are lanes and he's gaining yards, that more yards could have been had. Too many times I'm watching a run saying ooh, this could be a big gain, the blockers are out there, there is space and not many defenders in the area, and next thing you know, the run is over and you feel like he either didn't set up the blocking well enough or didn't break a tackle that normally could be broken. Just stuff like that.

The MVPlaya
09-21-2010, 01:06 AM
http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d81aa9453/Moreno-45-yard-rec

props to J.D. Walton on that play....

and Hochstein...smfh

ZONA
09-21-2010, 01:11 AM
http://www.nfl.com/videos/denver-broncos/09000d5d81aa9453/Moreno-45-yard-rec

My point exactly. Excellent job at the start of the run, making some nifty moves, but once he got into the open with a few blockers out there and a single defender, that could have easily been a TD. I don't think he used those blockers that well at the end of the run. A single defender in space, while there was at least 1 or 2 blockers there, makes the tackle. Defintely yards left on the field.

DivineLegion
09-21-2010, 01:32 AM
My point exactly. Excellent job at the start of the run, making some nifty moves, but once he got into the open with a few blockers out there and a single defender, that could have easily been a TD. I don't think he used those blockers that well at the end of the run. A single defender in space, while there was at least 1 or 2 blockers there, makes the tackle. Defintely yards left on the field.

He should have kept running outside. When he started taking the ball between the hash's he ran right into that tackle.

The MVPlaya
09-21-2010, 01:40 AM
My point exactly. Excellent job at the start of the run, making some nifty moves, but once he got into the open with a few blockers out there and a single defender, that could have easily been a TD. I don't think he used those blockers that well at the end of the run. A single defender in space, while there was at least 1 or 2 blockers there, makes the tackle. Defintely yards left on the field.

Not really. 1st off, Moreno is not a burner, and probably the only people whom can possibly turn that into a TD is Chris Johnson, Jahvid Best, or AP (maybe).

Watch the play again. If he cuts it inside, he's definitely going to get tackled by the DB thats off the screen that Lloyd is "blocking" or even Earl Thomas. He had to cut it to the outside, so the only thing I can agree with here is for him to keep cutting it the outside instead of cutting back in again.

Moreno is not a home run threat/burner type RB like a Jahvid Best.

If you watch enough football, you'd see that a play like that where an RB has 2 defenders that are essentially 5-15 yards ahead of him.. and they're moving backwards as he's going forward, that likely will not be a TD unless it's a runner I listed above.

Go watch some youtube clips from college of Moreno to see what type of runner he is, instead of sitting here talking about what he should be.

cutthemdown
09-21-2010, 02:05 AM
Moreno obviously would do better with bigger holes. Any RB will do better as blocking gets more dominant. but.........

No way after all these carries it all the olines fault he doesn't make any big plays. He's just not a special back, game breaker type player. He's an avg NFL RB who can join the long list of other first round runners who lacked whatever it is the special ones have for making big plays.

Moreno doesn't make people miss much, has avg power, avg speed. He can be a decent player for us but nothing that would make the team pass on a super talented runner in the next couple drafts. That is if one is there for the taking etc etc.

The MVPlaya
09-21-2010, 02:06 AM
Moreno obviously would do better with bigger holes. Any RB will do better as blocking gets more dominant. but.........

No way after all these carries it all the olines fault he doesn't make any big plays. He's just not a special back, game breaker type player. He's an avg NFL RB who can join the long list of other first round runners who lacked whatever it is the special ones have for making big plays.

Moreno doesn't make people miss much, has avg power, avg speed. He can be a decent player for us but nothing that would make the team pass on a super talented runner in the next couple drafts. That is if one is there for the taking etc etc.

Sorry bud, but TD or any running back in the Shanny era would be complete **** without blocking.

cutthemdown
09-21-2010, 02:18 AM
Sorry bud, but TD or any running back in the Shanny era would be complete **** without blocking.

Sorry bud but Moreno is an avg runner. He doesn't make people miss or have the speed to hit a home run. Blocking of course has to be good for a consistent running game. But no way can all the blame for a 1.7 yrd per carry offense be laid at the blockers. I've seen plenty of runs were I felt the runner either failed to hit hole, or had one guy to make miss to get into open and couldn't do it. Remember you rarely block everyone.

Look at Peterson the other night. He was making 2-3 guys miss then running a guy over at the end. I just don't see stuff like that from Moreno.

I'm not saying he's crap, I just don't feel he is a special player. I doubt he get's a big extension from Broncos when his rookie deal is up. Broncos will move on and keep looking for the real deal.

The MVPlaya
09-21-2010, 02:41 AM
Sorry bud but Moreno is an avg runner. He doesn't make people miss or have the speed to hit a home run. Blocking of course has to be good for a consistent running game. But no way can all the blame for a 1.7 yrd per carry offense be laid at the blockers. I've seen plenty of runs were I felt the runner either failed to hit hole, or had one guy to make miss to get into open and couldn't do it. Remember you rarely block everyone.


He doesn't have the speed to hit a home run, neither does most of the top RBs in the league or some ofthe greatest RBs of all time. **** we never had any RB outside of Clinton Portis and Tatum Bell be able to hit a home run, no one was complaining then? Neither does Peyton Hillis, BTW. I'm not sure why you keep reiterating this, but this was KNOWN at the time of draft. He isn't a "home run hitter" like a Jahvid Best.

He doesn't make people miss. I have no idea what the **** you're saying here. I think he was top 10 last year in yards after contact? I'd also hope you watch some of the Broncos games this year, because he broke off some nice runs in the Jags game, made nifty moves on defenders. Last game, he was consistently getting positive yardage in chunks of 3, 4, 5. He was a huge contributor for our strong start and game. It was during late 3rd qtr and 4th qtr that his avg started to slip. He's not exactly in 100% game shape yet, and he was gased late in the game.


Look at Peterson the other night. He was making 2-3 guys miss then running a guy over at the end. I just don't see stuff like that from Moreno.

Why are you comparing him to AP? There is only 1 AP. He arguably the best RB in the league. AP and CJ are in their own league. But you know what? Minnsesota and Tenn. have 2 of the best run block oline's in the league. What a ****ing coincidence.


I'm not saying he's crap, I just don't feel he is a special player. I doubt he get's a big extension from Broncos when his rookie deal is up. Broncos will move on and keep looking for the real deal.

Ok, so now you're thinking about his rookie extension after 18 games of his career, the 1st 16 in which he went through with lingering injuries, and yet still led his RB class his rush yards.

Did Knowshon miss some holes? Definitely. Could the blocking improve? definitely.

I think you and others here are talking about "it" that he supposedly doesn't have, but that "it" is just being a home run threat.

I don't see how you can sit here and watch Shanahan football for over a decade and not realize how important blocking is to the running game.

I have no idea what the **** you have going on in your head as far as expectations go, but if it is AP or Chris Johnson, save yourself the stress and realize that he was not drafted to be one of them nor was he ever projcted to have skill set of either.

The way you refer to players reminds of Raiders brand of football - and we all know how far that goes.

Garcia Bronco
09-21-2010, 05:28 AM
To me, I think it's becoming more clear every game, Moreno is going to be what Kevin Faulk was in NE. Now some people might think I'm slamming the guy but not really. While Kevin Faulk was definitely no Marshall Faulk, he was still a solid productive back who did several things very well, just nothing great. Moreno does show a ton of toughness out there on the turf. He does tough out some hard yards and if you don't think so you're blind. He catches the ball well and can block good enough. He's probably not going to break many long runs but he'll get a few here and there like he did Sunday. I have reached the verdict though that he's not going to be a great back. A solid player and one I think will make alot of nice plays for the Broncos but we are going to need another solid RB to help carry the load. He's just not going to make ENOUGH big plays to be a feature back. Again, not ripping the guy, he's steady, but for the Broncos offense to get to another level, I think we need another RB. Maybe when Maroney gets healthy, he can provide that extra boost. Those 2 healthy I think can be pretty good.

I thought about that this weekend and we'd be lucky to get that kind of service out of any player.

bpc
09-21-2010, 06:03 AM
Knowshon is a hard worker, who has skills in all three faucets of his game as a HB. Unfortunately he the ultimate "Jack of all trades, master of none." He was drafted 12th overall so people are expecting him to be a beast and he'll never be that. He's a 60/70 yd rushing guy who's going to chip in 4 or 5 receptions when he's healthy. Health is a concern with the guy, and his game couldn't replicate from the college level where his good quickness and average speed got him by. He still has solid quickness at the NFL level but his speed for the post part is sub-par.

We can all hope for lightning in a bottle with him, I just don't see it. He has RBBC written all over him. That's ok. He'll contribute when on the field and as I said before, you don't have to worry about him in the lockerroom or the offseason as he'll work hard for the team. There's something to be said for a contributor in these days even if they don't have the exact desired impact we all would like.

driver
09-21-2010, 07:01 AM
[QUOTE=The MVPlaya;2941975]Not really. 1st off, Moreno is not a burner, and probably the only people whom can possibly turn that into a TD is Chris Johnson, Jahvid Best, or AP (maybe).

Watch the play again. If he cuts it inside, he's definitely going to get tackled by the DB thats off the screen that Lloyd is "blocking" or even Earl Thomas. He had to cut it to the outside, so the only thing I can agree with here is for him to keep cutting it the outside instead of cutting back in again.

Disagree! I think if he had made 1 more stride to the left the db would've had to commit by turning Then slomo could've cut hard to the outside and probably scored.

azbroncfan
09-21-2010, 07:27 AM
Julius Jones 2.0 in my opinion.

orange skier
09-21-2010, 07:28 AM
Knowshon, I think, will mature very well, similar to a Ricky Williams. This kid still hasn't really had a full healthy training camp. He's going to get bigger and stronger as the years go by. Look at Ricky Williams, and look at Reggie Bush. These guys are young, and they get strength and grit, as they age. He's going to be fine. Not a Terrell Davis, maybe, but he's going to get better and better. We're just seeing the start. Let's get the O line healthy, and let them work together. One of the problems is we're used to one of the best running attacks in the game. Bobby Turner and Shanahan and the Zone Blocking System....you just can't get better than that.....I'm still not sold 100 percent on power blocking. I question whether we have the people to carry this off..........

OABB
09-21-2010, 07:45 AM
I watched the Seattle game again just to make sure I wasn't crazy defending the kid as much as I do. The kid is great. The kid is special. I am not sure why people don't see it. Did Kevin faulk vault over players? Did he spin out of two dlinmens grips like he did against the giants last year? He has inferior blocking, he is in a scheme that is not condusive to large numbers, he has been injured and he is till early in his career.

He is not Barry sanders or ap. But that doesn't mean he isn't great or will be. Walter Payton wasn't ap or sanders either. Just give the kid a chance and shut the **** up.

Beantown Bronco
09-21-2010, 07:52 AM
Kevin Faulk is averaging 300 yds rushing per year and only hit 600 yards once.....900 his rookie year? He wishes.

TheProfessor
09-21-2010, 07:54 AM
His story is a long ways from being written, but I have definately lowered my expectations since we drafted him.

bronco militia
09-21-2010, 07:57 AM
Moreno has an extremely annoying running style...he dances a ton, often times unnecessarily and he does leave yards on the field that way....but he definitely flashes talent and had that great play this week in space on that pass play. I'll reserve judgement until the OL looks like something more than dog****, though.

this....

Steve Sewell
09-21-2010, 08:10 AM
Nah, I've watched a ton of his running plays over and over and you just always get the feeling he left yards out there. Just a little to much hesitation here and there. I think great backs find ways to get yards even with so so blocking. Great backs help set up blocking. You can't just say hey OLmen, go out and pancake everybody on every play. That's not how blocking happens at the NFL level. You need backs who can feel running lanes out, set up defenders, and so on. As I said, I think Moreno does a decent job at these things, he just doesn't have that special something the great ones do. Are you saying you think he's going to be a great back?

He's saying the verdict is still out.

Moreno spent last season running behind an o-line trying to execute a power blocking scheme that featured ZBS-oriented guys like Ben Hamilton, Casey Weigman, and Tyler Polumbus. So far this season, he's running behind essentially 3 rookies, a backup guard, and an LT coming off of reconstructive knee surgery.

People need to chill the f-out and give the running game a chance to develop.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
09-21-2010, 08:37 AM
I've lowered my expectations too. I just don't see the burst that you want to see from a lead back. He takes 4-6 steps to really reach top speed, and when players are as quick as they are in the NFL, that just won't result in much.

Thing is, he seemed to have that burst in college... I don't know if he's bulked up too much or what, but his steps seem heavier, his strides longer, than they did when he was at Georgia.

He runs like a Robert Smith now. Long, heavy strides. Good going straight ahead. But he doesn't shed tackles like Smith did.

Baba Booey
09-21-2010, 08:42 AM
I've lowered my expectations too. I just don't see the burst that you want to see from a lead back. He takes 4-6 steps to really reach top speed, and when players are as quick as they are in the NFL, that just won't result in much.

Thing is, he seemed to have that burst in college... I don't know if he's bulked up too much or what, but his steps seem heavier, his strides longer, than they did when he was at Georgia.

He runs like a Robert Smith now. Long, heavy strides. Good going straight ahead. But he doesn't shed tackles like Smith did.

Yeah he just doesn't look like the same guy he was at Georgia.

Then again he did miss training camp again this year...maybe by midseason?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
09-21-2010, 08:49 AM
Yeah he just doesn't look like the same guy he was at Georgia.

Then again he did miss training camp again this year...maybe by midseason?

I hope you're right. That would be great.

Thing is, I really want him to be successful. He was lights out at Georgia, and I just haven't seen the same guy. His attitude is awesome, and I don't think he's ever not run hard. it's just a matter of timing with the line and how he makes his cuts (I think and hope).

I'd like to see his footwork get better, too. If he could get to top speed in 3 steps instead of 5, I think that would make him more successful, especially when he has to change direction (since it takes five steps all over again for him to get going).

Tombstone RJ
09-21-2010, 08:50 AM
Moreno just needs to get in sink with the oline and develop some kind of flow during a game. He's got the talent and the toughness, he just needs more experience and that will come with time. The oline is getting better but is still a work in progress, Moreno is getting better but is still a work in progress.

outdoor_miner
09-21-2010, 08:54 AM
Knowshon is a hard worker, who has skills in all three faucets of his game as a HB. Unfortunately he the ultimate "Jack of all trades, master of none." He was drafted 12th overall so people are expecting him to be a beast and he'll never be that. He's a 60/70 yd rushing guy who's going to chip in 4 or 5 receptions when he's healthy. Health is a concern with the guy, and his game couldn't replicate from the college level where his good quickness and average speed got him by. He still has solid quickness at the NFL level but his speed for the post part is sub-par.

We can all hope for lightning in a bottle with him, I just don't see it. He has RBBC written all over him. That's ok. He'll contribute when on the field and as I said before, you don't have to worry about him in the lockerroom or the offseason as he'll work hard for the team. There's something to be said for a contributor in these days even if they don't have the exact desired impact we all would like.

I agree with this. I see good quickness and balance, which serves him well behind the line of scrimmage (where his most impressive/elusive moves have occurred). I also agree with folks that he is getting hit at the line of scrimmage way too often. However, I still don't see him being an elite back in the NFL. When he gets to the second level, I've seen way too many times where he fails to make somebody miss. He'll burst through to the second level, only to be tackled by a linebacker or a safety. The announcers even commented on it during the game.

I think he can be a very solid player, but he doesn't look like a game changer. I think his best quality may end up being his ability to catch the ball out of the backfield...

Beantown Bronco
09-21-2010, 09:11 AM
You certainly wouldn't know by reading this thread that Moreno was the most productive rookie RB in the league last year.

Tombstone RJ
09-21-2010, 09:15 AM
You certainly wouldn't know by reading this thread that Moreno was the most productive rookie RB in the league last year.

Well, he's no Hillis...

Br0nc0Buster
09-21-2010, 09:19 AM
I watched the Seattle game again just to make sure I wasn't crazy defending the kid as much as I do. The kid is great. The kid is special. I am not sure why people don't see it. Did Kevin faulk vault over players? Did he spin out of two dlinmens grips like he did against the giants last year? He has inferior blocking, he is in a scheme that is not condusive to large numbers, he has been injured and he is till early in his career.

He is not Barry sanders or ap. But that doesn't mean he isn't great or will be. Walter Payton wasn't ap or sanders either. Just give the kid a chance and shut the **** up.

Im thinking more along these lines as well
even though his stats are not great and his YPC was garbage last game, I am getting more impressed with Moreno

Times he dances and maybe misses a hole, but our offensive line is so bad at run blocking right now the entire second half of the game I seriously dont think they opened even a crease for anyone to run through

its hard to blame a RB when he is met with defenders before he even reaches the line of scrimmage

Captain 'Dre
09-21-2010, 09:21 AM
To me, I think it's becoming more clear every game, Moreno is going to be what Kevin Faulk was in NE. Now some people might think I'm slamming the guy but not really. While Kevin Faulk was definitely no Marshall Faulk, he was still a solid productive back who did several things very well, just nothing great. Moreno does show a ton of toughness out there on the turf. He does tough out some hard yards and if you don't think so you're blind. He catches the ball well and can block good enough. He's probably not going to break many long runs but he'll get a few here and there like he did Sunday. I have reached the verdict though that he's not going to be a great back. A solid player and one I think will make alot of nice plays for the Broncos but we are going to need another solid RB to help carry the load. He's just not going to make ENOUGH big plays to be a feature back. Again, not ripping the guy, he's steady, but for the Broncos offense to get to another level, I think we need another RB. Maybe when Maroney gets healthy, he can provide that extra boost. Those 2 healthy I think can be pretty good.

Remember Ronnie Harmon?

He was a 1st round pick of the Bills in 1986.

Excellent receiver, a very fluid runner, always able to make the first defender miss when he got the ball in space.

Ronnie was a 1st Down machine.... but not an "every down" back, and didn't possess the size and brute strength to be a between-the-tackles runner.

That's what I see when I observe Knowshon.

Captain 'Dre
09-21-2010, 09:23 AM
Yeah he just doesn't look like the same guy he was at Georgia.

Then again he did miss training camp again this year...maybe by midseason?

The opponents are considerably faster in the NFL than they were when Knowshon played at Georgia.

Tombstone RJ
09-21-2010, 09:24 AM
Remember Ronnie Harmon?

He was a 1st round pick of the Bills in 1986.

Excellent receiver, a very fluid runner, always able to make the first defender miss when he got the ball in space.

Ronnie was a 1st Down machine.... but not an "every down" back, and didn't possess the size and brute strength to be a between-the-tackles runner.

That's what I see when I observe Knowshon.

Remember John Avery? Dude was ligtning fast, he was truly a breakaway RB, why didn't he last in the NFL again? Oh yah, he hated being hit...

MaloCS
09-21-2010, 09:33 AM
It doesn't take a running back two seasons to get their game. This idea that we should give him more time is absurd, the guy is just not going to be the second coming of Terrell Davis. Maybe he can attain the heights of Wilhite or Winder but a Davis he is not.

Regardless, there is no shame in being a solid, no nonsense back in the NFL. A very productive career can be had by having these traits. But... if the Broncos are looking for the next Terrell Davis then they're going to have to look elsewhere because this kid is not it.

I'm of the opinion that the first 2 to 3 yards of a running play are generally produced by the offensive line. After that initial 2 to 3 yards the talent of the running back takes over and is responsible for the additionally yardage. As a result, when I critique Moreno I just completely throw out any runs he makes that are less the 3 yards because I feel the OL is responsible for the lack of success. On the other hand, I've seen way to many average performances when he gets past that initial 2 to 3 yards. For whatever reason he just seems to lack the confidence to make something happen when he gets to the second level. His decisions are tentative, his reactions are slow and he tends to trip over his own feet way to often. The 40 yarder he busted against Seattle would have been 6 points if T.D. were the back.

Tombstone RJ
09-21-2010, 09:40 AM
It doesn't take a running back two seasons to get their game. This idea that we should give him more time is absurd, the guy is just not going to be the second coming of Terrell Davis. Maybe he can attain the heights of Wilhite or Winder but a Davis he is not.

Regardless, there is no shame in being a solid, no nonsense back in the NFL. A very productive career can be had by having these traits. But... if the Broncos are looking for the next Terrell Davis then they're going to have to look elsewhere because this kid is not it.

I'm of the opinion that the first 2 to 3 yards of a running play are generally produced by the offensive line. After that initial 2 to 3 yards the talent of the running back takes over and is responsible for the additionally yardage. As a result, when I critique Moreno I just completely throw out any runs he makes that are less the 3 yards because I feel the OL is responsible for the lack of success. On the other hand, I've seen way to many average performances when he gets past that initial 2 to 3 yards. For whatever reason he just seems to lack the confidence to make something happen when he gets to the second level. His decisions are tentative, his reactions are slow and he tends to trip over his own feet way to often. The 40 yarder he busted against Seattle would have been 6 points if T.D. were the back.

I'm seeing what you are seeing for sure, however I do think it's gonna take a little more time for Moreno to feel comfortable in this offense. I think right now he is too amped up and this causes him to become jittery (is that a word?).

In Georgia, he was extremely confortable in that offense. For whatever reason, he has not been able to get that comfortable feeling in this offense and hopefully that will come with reps and time.

baja
09-21-2010, 09:47 AM
My take is he is a slow bloomer.

He missed his rookie camp with contract issues and ran behind a ZBS line that was pretending to be a power blocking line and he played all year with a knee injury.

This season so far he missed all training camp with a hammy, ran hard in Jacksonville and looked much better in the home opener against Seattle. He is just rounding into game shape running behind a make shift line.

You guys are judging him way too early. I think many of you are going to be pleasantly surprised with KM.

TheChamp24
09-21-2010, 09:54 AM
Again, Moreno is not a good/great back.
He is average. He seems to get a good play or two every game, but thats it. Mostly short gains where he may get 4-7 on a run. I call that average.
A 2.8 YPC is ATROCIOUS.
Buffalo has a terrible OL, and Marshawn Lynch/Fred Jackson both are averaging > 3.5 ypc.
Is it all Moreno? No. But is it all the OL? No.
Moreno will probably get labeled as a bust in terms of draft status. IMO, the production he brings is not worth the 12th pick in the draft, not even close.

And give him time? A RB's average shelf life is what, 3 years? If he doesn't start getting it done by the end of the year, he's an average RB.

Rock Chalk
09-21-2010, 09:58 AM
Everyone wants a home run hitter.

Man give me a workhorse back that gets 4-5 yards on first or second down. This has become a primarily passing team anyway, so when you get that work horse that gives you short 3rd downs that's worth his weight in gold.

I dont care if he makes a linebacker miss. If he got to the linebacker he did his job. The fact that he was hit behind or at the LOS 75% (roughly) of the time gainst Seattle is the real concern here. THAT falls on the o-line.

Now, Seattle stacked it and they got some big beefy dudes up front and some real fast LBs but you wont have any success running if you cant get your RB at least some sort of crease on the line.

Despite the fact that we ran poorly against Seattle, we continued to do so. We did not abandon the run and only throw in the token run play every other series. We pounded it and that's what you have to do. With our passing game, our run game does not necessarily have to be extremely effective, just effective enough.

Give our Line some time to gel and you will see Moreno getting 4-5 yards a clip with regularity. If you rush for 4.5 yards per carry thats 3rd and 1 dude, and that's a good place to be. Home run hitters are exciting, but consistent RBs control games. Id rather Moreno just become that consistent RB and he can do that (I think we all agree on that) when the line gets a little better.

Beantown Bronco
09-21-2010, 09:59 AM
Again, Moreno is not a good/great back.
He is average. He seems to get a good play or two every game, but thats it. Mostly short gains where he may get 4-7 on a run. I call that average.
A 2.8 YPC is ATROCIOUS.
Buffalo has a terrible OL, and Marshawn Lynch/Fred Jackson both are averaging > 3.5 ypc.
Is it all Moreno? No. But is it all the OL? No.
Moreno will probably get labeled as a bust in terms of draft status. IMO, the production he brings is not worth the 12th pick in the draft, not even close.

And give him time? A RB's average shelf life is what, 3 years? If he doesn't start getting it done by the end of the year, he's an average RB.

Damn, you make it sound like he couldn't start for Myrtle Beach High School.

MaloCS
09-21-2010, 10:07 AM
I'm seeing what you are seeing for sure, however I do think it's gonna take a little more time for Moreno to feel comfortable in this offense. I think right now he is too amped up and this causes him to become jittery (is that a word?).

In Georgia, he was extremely confortable in that offense. For whatever reason, he has not been able to get that comfortable feeling in this offense and hopefully that will come with reps and time.

Your point is somewhat grounded in reality but from my experience as a running back in HS and college it doesn't take this long to get your game.

Football is football and the instincts to play the game are the same at every level of competition. The difference between the levels is the speed of the game and the talent level of the competition. Having said that, I do agree that there is a small learning curve when it comes to an offensive system, the speed of the game and the defensive talent level for there to be some patience in allowing a young player to mature. Regardless, at this point in his career he should be accustomed to the system and the speed of the professional game. If he doesn't have it by now then as a coach, I have to start wondering if he's ever going to get it. Not for a lack of trying but for a lack of adaption.

A running back has to have a high level of confidence when they play the game, regardless of which level they're playing in. They need to hit the hole/crease with confidence and they need to make defenders miss when they reach the secondary. In the NFL, the crease the OL creates is not going to be very big, maybe 2 to 3 feet wide. The running back has to have the vision to see the crease and the confidence to hit it with authority. If there's any indecision, even for a tenth of a second, the crease will close and the play will fail.

When I said I generally throw out the first 2 to 3 yards of any running play when critiquing a running back what I mean is that I feel there are just too many variables in play to honestly judge that back in that specific situation. What I initially look for is what the back does when they get past that 2 to 3 yards; do they make people miss, do they run with confidence, do they run with authority? If the answer is yes then I know the back has the goods. If the answer is no then I have to wonder about the backs ability to succeed in the professional ranks.

If every time the running back gets into the secondary he shows signs of being special but he only gets to the secondary once or twice a game then I have to look at why he's not getting to the second level. Is it the OL or is it the RBs lack of ability to hit the crease with authority? In Moreno's case, what I see is a running back that's tentative when he gets to the second level. He's unsure about his ability and his brain is fighting his instincts; this is why he's always tripping over his own feet. His instincts want him to do one thing but his brain is forcing another.

I believe he has the physical goods to be a special running back but he needs to overcome his indecision and lack of confidence. Like I stated earlier, if he hasn't done it by now then as a coach, I would have to start wondering why.

BlaK-Argentina
09-21-2010, 10:19 AM
My guess is people would be all over his nuts if he had been a Shanny pick. I mean he's no Hillis right?

I have no complaints with him considering the piss poor run blocking we've had and he'll only get better. Not worried one bit and I could care less about having a home run hitter at RB. That's what your change of pace back is for. Right now we don't have one.

Gutless Drunk
09-21-2010, 10:29 AM
My guess is people would be all over his nuts if he had been a Shanny pick. I mean he's no Hillis right?

I have no complaints with him considering the piss poor run blocking we've had and he'll only get better. Not worried one bit and I could care less about having a home run hitter at RB. That's what your change of pace back is for. Right now we don't have one.

Don't think being a Shanny pick has much to do with it. Being the 12th pick in the draft does... of such much is expected. As for Hillis.. being the 227th pick..not so much.

Killericon
09-21-2010, 10:32 AM
Or maybe his running style and role in this offence doesn't mirror any NE player.

Maybe.

BlaK-Argentina
09-21-2010, 10:33 AM
Don't think being a Shanny pick has much to do with it. Being the 12th pick in the draft does... of such much is expected. As for Hillis.. being the 227th pick..not so much.

Well I could care less about where a guy is picked as long as he contributes, which Moreno has clearly done. I don't understand people's obsession with Draft picks, slots, and whatever.

MaloCS
09-21-2010, 10:34 AM
My guess is people would be all over his nuts if he had been a Shanny pick. I mean he's no Hillis right?

I have no complaints with him considering the piss poor run blocking we've had and he'll only get better. Not worried one bit and I could care less about having a home run hitter at RB. That's what your change of pace back is for. Right now we don't have one.

Who was the change of pace back for Terrell Davis? What? That's right, there wasn't one because with T.D., the Broncos didn't need to resort to trickery. In T.D., the Broncos had a back that could get the difficult yards as well as take it to the house when he reached the secondary. No change of pace back was needed.

And for the record, I WAS NOT a fan of Portis. I always felt his yards were EMPTY yards and never influenced the outcome of the game. Sure, for fantasy football players he was a great player to have on your team but in real life he never controlled a ball game and dictated how the defense played.

As a critic of running backs, especially at the NFL level, I expect the back to score a touchdown when they're in the secondary with only one guy to beat. Portis rarely did this and Moreno is showing the same tendencies.

It's disappointing because Moreno really does have the physical tools to get the job done. For some reason, the pieces are just not falling into place. If it's because of injuries then a coach has to wonder if the guy is going to be reliable enough to build a running game around.

Additionally, look at a guy like Buckhalter that has a reputation for being injury prone. The guy runs with passion and authority and has adapted to the NFL game despite his injuries. If a guy like "Buck" can run the way he does despite his physical problems then one can only wonder what kind of back he could have been without the injuries. If "Buck" can adapt to the NFL game despite injuries is it too much to expect Moreno to do the same?

MaloCS
09-21-2010, 10:36 AM
I don't understand people's obsession with Draft picks, slots, and whatever.

I agree... great observation.

Beantown Bronco
09-21-2010, 10:38 AM
At least we now know the answer to the previously hypothetical question of "who will the negative nancies mercilessly pick apart and generally shower with criticism once Kyle Orton shuts them up with solid play?"

BlaK-Argentina
09-21-2010, 10:38 AM
Who was the change of pace back for Terrell Davis? What? That's right, there wasn't one because with T.D., the Broncos didn't need to resort to trickery. In T.D., the Broncos had a back that could get the difficult yards as well as take it to the house when he reached the secondary. No change of pace back was needed.

And for the record, I WAS NOT a fan of Portis. I always felt his yards were EMPTY yards and never influenced the outcome of the game. Sure, for fantasy football players he was a great player to have on your team but in real life he never controlled a ball game and dictated how the defense played.

As a critic of running backs, especially at the NFL level, I expect the back to score a touchdown when they're in the secondary with only one guy to beat. Portis rarely did this and Moreno is showing the same tendencies.

It's disappointing because Moreno really does have the physical tools to get the job done. For some reason, the pieces are just not falling into place. If it's because of injuries then a coach has to wonder if the guy is going to be reliable enough to build a running game around.

Additionally, look at a guy like Buckhalter that has a reputation for being injury prone. The guy runs with passion and authority and has adapted to the NFL game despite his injuries. If a guy like "Buck" can run the way he does despite his physical problems then one can only wonder what kind of back he could have been without the injuries. If "Buck" can adapt to the NFL game despite injuries is it too much to expect Moreno to do the same?

Obviously a different team, and a different era. There's only one TD and you're not comparing that team with this team, are you?

BlaK-Argentina
09-21-2010, 10:40 AM
BTW MaloCS I don't disagree with you. I expect Moreno to improve.

MaloCS
09-21-2010, 10:52 AM
Obviously a different team, and a different era. There's only one TD and you're not comparing that team with this team, are you?

YES! ABSOLUTELY!

I was always taught that if you wanted to be the best you have to compare yourself to the best. If I'm a running back and I believe T.D. to be the best running back to play the game then I'm going to compare myself to T.D. I'm going to pattern my behavior after his, I'm going to do the same things he did, I'm going to study his game tape to see how he reacts in certain situations. Then, when it's all said and done I'm going to compare my performance to his because that the baseline performance I've set for myself.

As a fan I'm going to do the same exact thing. The Broncos in the late 1990's were the best Denver Broncos teams EVER! So, as a fan, I'm going to compare every forthcoming team to the standard set by that team in the 90s. That's my baseline for success as a fan.

Boobs McGee
09-21-2010, 11:30 AM
Everyone wants a home run hitter.

Man give me a workhorse back that gets 4-5 yards on first or second down. This has become a primarily passing team anyway, so when you get that work horse that gives you short 3rd downs that's worth his weight in gold.

I dont care if he makes a linebacker miss. If he got to the linebacker he did his job. The fact that he was hit behind or at the LOS 75% (roughly) of the time gainst Seattle is the real concern here. THAT falls on the o-line.

Now, Seattle stacked it and they got some big beefy dudes up front and some real fast LBs but you wont have any success running if you cant get your RB at least some sort of crease on the line.

Despite the fact that we ran poorly against Seattle, we continued to do so. We did not abandon the run and only throw in the token run play every other series. We pounded it and that's what you have to do. With our passing game, our run game does not necessarily have to be extremely effective, just effective enough.

Give our Line some time to gel and you will see Moreno getting 4-5 yards a clip with regularity. If you rush for 4.5 yards per carry thats 3rd and 1 dude, and that's a good place to be. Home run hitters are exciting, but consistent RBs control games. Id rather Moreno just become that consistent RB and he can do that (I think we all agree on that) when the line gets a little better.


I agree with this whole heartedly.

It really felt like he was getting some nice gains on 1st 2nd downs early in the game, and that's what I'm really after when it comes to running back. 3rd and two/three is fantastic when you're grinding out the clock. Would a home run hitter be nice? Sure. And I think once he and the line get in sync, that's not entirely out of the question.

I guess, from the flashes I've seen so far, that he'll be a solid workhorse back who can occasionally make some big gains. He's looked decent for a guy getting consistently hit at or behind the los.

OABB
09-21-2010, 11:30 AM
YES! ABSOLUTELY!

I was always taught that if you wanted to be the best you have to compare yourself to the best. If I'm a running back and I believe T.D. to be the best running back to play the game then I'm going to compare myself to T.D. I'm going to pattern my behavior after his, I'm going to do the same things he did, I'm going to study his game tape to see how he reacts in certain situations. Then, when it's all said and done I'm going to compare my performance to his because that the baseline performance I've set for myself.

As a fan I'm going to do the same exact thing. The Broncos in the late 1990's were the best Denver Broncos teams EVER! So, as a fan, I'm going to compare every forthcoming team to the standard set by that team in the 90s. That's my baseline for success as a fan.


our offensive line today is obviously on par with those teams.

~Crash~
09-21-2010, 11:35 AM
lets hope our Oline gets health and we get a real look ..who knows

OABB
09-21-2010, 11:38 AM
lets hope our Oline gets health and we get a real look ..who knows

the oline matters not, silly.

TD would have gotten 2009 yards behind the likes of polumbus, hamilton, wiegman, hochstien, and daniels!

Moreno is a bust!

MaloCS
09-21-2010, 11:46 AM
our offensive line today is obviously on par with those teams.

No it isn't and I agree with your statement, despite the sarcasm. But I do and will continue to gauge the performance of the 90s OL to the performance of today's OL. The late 90s OL is my baseline of success and presents a standard that every OL that comes after should aspire to be. Not in terms of technique and scheme but in terms of success.

If you read my assessment of Moreno's performance ONCE he reaches the secondary I DO NOT believe he would be a great running back, even if he was running behind the OL of the late 90s. He's too tentative and doesn't run with authority once he gets to the second level. In my opinion, if the Broncos had an OL that was on par with the line of the late 90s we would see more indecision, more uncertainty and more tripping over one self's feet.

Steve Sewell
09-21-2010, 11:51 AM
YES! ABSOLUTELY!

I was always taught that if you wanted to be the best you have to compare yourself to the best. If I'm a running back and I believe T.D. to be the best running back to play the game then I'm going to compare myself to T.D. I'm going to pattern my behavior after his, I'm going to do the same things he did, I'm going to study his game tape to see how he reacts in certain situations. Then, when it's all said and done I'm going to compare my performance to his because that the baseline performance I've set for myself.

As a fan I'm going to do the same exact thing. The Broncos in the late 1990's were the best Denver Broncos teams EVER! So, as a fan, I'm going to compare every forthcoming team to the standard set by that team in the 90s. That's my baseline for success as a fan.

Your "baselines for success" lead to unreasonable expectations and will ultimately lead to more disappointment than joy.

MaloCS
09-21-2010, 12:02 PM
Your "baselines for success" lead to unreasonable expectations and will ultimately lead to more disappointment than joy.

Not true... So not true.

Sure, my baseline of success for the Broncos is set pretty high but I'm also realistic about the team and their talent level. I enjoy watching the growing process the young talent goes through. I find that aspect very enjoyable and exciting.

So... even though I have a high standard of team success there are still plenty of aspects that I can get excited about. I enjoy watching Thomas, Decker, Royal, Clady, Dumervile and Tebow. I consider these players to be the core of the team in years to come and their individual success as they work towards a greater team success is something to enjoy.

Beantown Bronco
09-21-2010, 12:54 PM
Ironic. This thread gets created the same day Faulk is diagnosed with an ACL tear that might end his career.

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/extra_points/2010/09/faulk_has_torn.html

(losing their 2 most productive backs from last year in the span of one week.....ouch)

Inkana7
09-21-2010, 01:08 PM
YES! ABSOLUTELY!

I was always taught that if you wanted to be the best you have to compare yourself to the best. If I'm a running back and I believe T.D. to be the best running back to play the game then I'm going to compare myself to T.D. I'm going to pattern my behavior after his, I'm going to do the same things he did, I'm going to study his game tape to see how he reacts in certain situations. Then, when it's all said and done I'm going to compare my performance to his because that the baseline performance I've set for myself.

As a fan I'm going to do the same exact thing. The Broncos in the late 1990's were the best Denver Broncos teams EVER! So, as a fan, I'm going to compare every forthcoming team to the standard set by that team in the 90s. That's my baseline for success as a fan.

That's kind of pretty dumb.

MaloCS
09-21-2010, 01:24 PM
That's kind of pretty dumb.

Hilarious! I don't even know how to respond to this.

Dagmar
09-21-2010, 01:29 PM
I like the kid and expect him to improve as the year goes on, like the rest of the team. He got over a hundred yards and a td, good return for a player.

listopencil
09-21-2010, 05:43 PM
It's hard to say right now. I'm certainly willing to give him some more time before I form an opinion, because:

1) he's had two pre seasons with roadblocks to his development.

2) our O-line has not been run blocking consistently well since he's been here

3) the NE running game with McD as OC disappointed me


I'm hoping Moreno benefits from our passing game, honestly. I think that may be the best we can hope for right now.

listopencil
09-21-2010, 05:46 PM
Oh, regarding the OP, he does remind me of Kevin Faulk too. And that's not a downgrade of Moreno by any means.

WolfpackGuy
09-21-2010, 05:56 PM
KM's just not a home run hitter.

When Greene and McCoy get in the open field, they are capable of taking it to the house.

A solid player, but they really should've traded down from 12.

Archer81
09-21-2010, 06:26 PM
I hope KM is not like KF...considering how Faulk tore his ACL and all.


:Broncos:

Popps
09-21-2010, 06:59 PM
Well I could care less about where a guy is picked as long as he contributes, which Moreno has clearly done. I don't understand people's obsession with Draft picks, slots, and whatever.

It just stems from a lack of understanding.

If people really looked at the history of the draft and the rate of success/failure of picks, then it wouldn't be a topic of conversation.

Alphonso Smith not panning out just isn't the front page story people want it to be... trade or not.

Dedhed
09-21-2010, 07:31 PM
My point exactly. Excellent job at the start of the run, making some nifty moves, but once he got into the open with a few blockers out there and a single defender, that could have easily been a TD. I don't think he used those blockers that well at the end of the run. A single defender in space, while there was at least 1 or 2 blockers there, makes the tackle. Defintely yards left on the field.
While I disagree completely with your Kevin Faulk take, Moreno is light years more explosive than Faulk, I agree with this point.

If, at around the 35 yard line, Moreno makes that cut to his left and just angles away from the defender he easily gets that ball inside the 10 yard line and possibly scores if any blocker gets a piece of Thomas. Instead he makes an extra cut back into the defender and goes down at the 20.

He does have a tendency to make an unnecessary move that slows him down and brings defenders back into the play.

With that said, I still think he's going to be a top back in the league in overall production over the next 5 years.

ZONA
09-21-2010, 08:26 PM
I just hope Moreno can develop a better sense of running judgement in open space and how to set up blocks better closer to the LOS. And for those who scream out that we need better blocking, nobody will disagree with that. But blocking is not a simple study, it has many dynamics to it. A good back that knows how to set up a block well, can actually make the blocker look good, and vise versa, take that same exact play (the blocker and defender positions) a RB who doesn't know how to set up a block well, can make the same blocker look bad, like he's not getting the job done. A blocker can't see behind him and he doesn't know if the back is going to take it outside of cut it in. The blocker is just trying to maintain his position in front of the defender, thus blocking the defenders path to the RB. That's what it's called blocking. Most of the time the defender is going to try and hold ground and stand the blocker up, keeping is eye on the runner trying to figure out which side of the block he is going to run. It's up to the RB to sell that defender a lie. At the very least, if he can't sell the defender, he doesn't want to just give away where he is going. That makes it easier on the defender to position himself to that side of the blocker, giving him a much better chance at making the tackle. Blocking is hardly just X's and O's for linemen, you get in front of this guy and there you go. The back has a job to do as well when it comes to the blocking game. He simply just can't wait for "room to run". He's got to help create that "room to run". I think he can eventually learn this technique but presently, it's my opinion that he doesn't do a great job of this. Not that he's doing horribly because he's not. He's been productive. I think some people here are trying to convince themselves we are saying he's not a good back. He's good, just not great.

And when I compared him to K. Faulk, that's how I kinda feel that Moreno is going to work out. Faulk never had those impressive running stats at the end of the game, but he was a guy that didn't make mistakes. He rarely missed a block in the passing game, hardly fumbled, always seemed to get enough yards for the 1st down, a guy who understood how to get open in the middle of the field, had a good sense of timing on passing plays where he would stay in to block and know just when to scat to the flat for the dump off. I just always remember saying to myself as I watched Faulk with NE, that he wasn't a great runner but time and time again, he was making the play that kept NE's offense on the field. Not a high priced flashy and sassy RB. Just a guy that was tough and did his job well. I hope Moreno can be that for a long time. I just don't expect the Broncos to shower him with a ton of money at the end of his contract. They'll want him, but only at the right price I think.

OABB
09-21-2010, 10:52 PM
While I disagree completely with your Kevin Faulk take, Moreno is light years more explosive than Faulk, I agree with this point.

If, at around the 35 yard line, Moreno makes that cut to his left and just angles away from the defender he easily gets that ball inside the 10 yard line and possibly scores if any blocker gets a piece of Thomas. Instead he makes an extra cut back into the defender and goes down at the 20.

He does have a tendency to make an unnecessary move that slows him down and brings defenders back into the play.

With that said, I still think he's going to be a top back in the league in overall production over the next 5 years.

I think the extra cutback was a good idea since he had three blockers on that side....he wanted a touchdown. also why do we ignore the great slip of two defenders at the los and the hurdle?

only here can a guy make two moves like that and than have his cutback into blockers questioned.

Im at a loss with the moreno stuff here.

also, lloyd was behind trufant, and moreno's double move allowed him to catch up...if gaffney stayed with his man it was actually a good move to set that block up.

ton80
09-21-2010, 11:55 PM
To me, I think it's becoming more clear every game, Moreno is going to be what Kevin Faulk was in NE. Now some people might think I'm slamming the guy but not really. While Kevin Faulk was definitely no Marshall Faulk, he was still a solid productive back who did several things very well, just nothing great. Moreno does show a ton of toughness out there on the turf. He does tough out some hard yards and if you don't think so you're blind. He catches the ball well and can block good enough. He's probably not going to break many long runs but he'll get a few here and there like he did Sunday. I have reached the verdict though that he's not going to be a great back. A solid player and one I think will make alot of nice plays for the Broncos but we are going to need another solid RB to help carry the load. He's just not going to make ENOUGH big plays to be a feature back. Again, not ripping the guy, he's steady, but for the Broncos offense to get to another level, I think we need another RB. Maybe when Maroney gets healthy, he can provide that extra boost. Those 2 healthy I think can be pretty good.

Agree totally. Moreno has no burst but OK speed, some lateral movement but no quicks, so-so feet but not real deceptive or balanced(TD had the greatest feet of all time-balance plus deceptiveness) , good power and pedigree.

I could easily see McDaniels picking a RB early in next year's draft to improve upon the assets of Moreno.

Bronco Yoda
09-22-2010, 12:58 AM
As of right now, Moreno is an average back. A good #2 but lacking as a #1. He's a hard worker and ok to good at everything. I'd still like to see us get a real monster at #1. Either explosive or power.

ELEVATION
09-22-2010, 04:43 AM
It doesn't take a running back two seasons to get their game. This idea that we should give him more time is absurd, the guy is just not going to be the second coming of Terrell Davis. Maybe he can attain the heights of Wilhite or Winder but a Davis he is not.

Regardless, there is no shame in being a solid, no nonsense back in the NFL. A very productive career can be had by having these traits. But... if the Broncos are looking for the next Terrell Davis then they're going to have to look elsewhere because this kid is not it.

I'm of the opinion that the first 2 to 3 yards of a running play are generally produced by the offensive line. After that initial 2 to 3 yards the talent of the running back takes over and is responsible for the additionally yardage. As a result, when I critique Moreno I just completely throw out any runs he makes that are less the 3 yards because I feel the OL is responsible for the lack of success. On the other hand, I've seen way to many average performances when he gets past that initial 2 to 3 yards. For whatever reason he just seems to lack the confidence to make something happen when he gets to the second level. His decisions are tentative, his reactions are slow and he tends to trip over his own feet way to often. The 40 yarder he busted against Seattle would have been 6 points if T.D. were the back.


really ...benson....deangelo williams....mendehall.....just 3 quick examples of guys needing a few years then the dividends paying off.....

ELEVATION
09-22-2010, 04:48 AM
Ironic. This thread gets created the same day Faulk is diagnosed with an ACL tear that might end his career.

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/extra_points/2010/09/faulk_has_torn.html

(losing their 2 most productive backs from last year in the span of one week.....ouch)

and they gave us maroney...karma for the barett move they pulled.....:~ohyah!:

Dedhed
09-22-2010, 06:25 AM
I think the extra cutback was a good idea since he had three blockers on that side....he wanted a touchdown. also why do we ignore the great slip of two defenders at the los and the hurdle?

only here can a guy make two moves like that and than have his cutback into blockers questioned.

Im at a loss with the moreno stuff here.

also, lloyd was behind trufant, and moreno's double move allowed him to catch up...if gaffney stayed with his man it was actually a good move to set that block up.First of all, relax and try to be somewhat objective.

I think KM is going to be a great back, but he definitely left yards on the field on that run, and needs to gain patience.

His patience is improving at the LOS, but at the 2nd level he still gets very fidgety and ends up leaving yards on the field.

Watch the tape. After he lands from the hurdle, Gaffney is engaged perfectly in front of KM on Thomas. Lloyd is off screen to the right in perfect position on Trufant. If KM just falls in behind Royal he can probably follow those 3 blockers into the end zone.

Instead, he cuts inside, allowing Thomas to disengage from Gaff. At that point he might be able to outrun Thomas to the corner, but he gets fidgety again and makes another cut that brings him right back into Thomas.

KM did an amazing job to get to that point, but once he got there that run should have gone all the way. He had two better options than the one he chose. No cuts or one cut leads to more yards than he got.

OABB
09-22-2010, 07:28 AM
First of all, relax and try to be somewhat objective.

I think KM is going to be a great back, but he definitely left yards on the field on that run, and needs to gain patience.

His patience is improving at the LOS, but at the 2nd level he still gets very fidgety and ends up leaving yards on the field.

Watch the tape. After he lands from the hurdle, Gaffney is engaged perfectly in front of KM on Thomas. Lloyd is off screen to the right in perfect position on Trufant. If KM just falls in behind Royal he can probably follow those 3 blockers into the end zone.

Instead, he cuts inside, allowing Thomas to disengage from Gaff. At that point he might be able to outrun Thomas to the corner, but he gets fidgety again and makes another cut that brings him right back into Thomas.

KM did an amazing job to get to that point, but once he got there that run should have gone all the way. He had two better options than the one he chose. No cuts or one cut leads to more yards than he got.



You must be good at madden. It's a real athletic gift you have to be able to watch a play from your couch in slow motion and choose the correct angles. You should coach. Knowshon needs to learn how to see Eddie royal behind him wile he actually running at full speed while 300 pound men are trying to crush him. He really could benefit from some slow motion or maybe a birds eye camera while he's running.


I also am good at madden and I also have slow mo and I'm telling you Lloyd was not on his man. Ik knowshon continued going forward trufant would have him. It was his move that allowed trufant to be blocked. Watch it again.

And as you do remember that knowshon is a real athlete on a real field with out the benefit of Video analysis you doucher.

Also his move was to turn the defender who gaffney didn't really have around. It was a good defensive play.

Drek
09-22-2010, 07:48 AM
really ...benson....deangelo williams....mendehall.....just 3 quick examples of guys needing a few years then the dividends paying off.....

Thomas Jones, Tiki Barber, Steven Jackson, Ricky Williams, Warrick Dunn, Emmitt Smith, and Thruman Thomas all had similar rushing numbers to Moreno their first seasons as the full time starter.

To this point MJD has had one season where he's rushed for more yardage than Moreno did as a rookie. He's in his 5th year in the NFL.

How someone can watch Moreno turn a screen pass from Orton that should've been a 1 yard loss into a 45 yard gain when NOT A SINGLE BLOCKER did their job and claim the guy isn't explosive just blows my mind.

Walton and Hochstein both missed their pickups to start that play. Lloyd made a weak effort to block his man. Gaffney basically just had a little slap fight when a real block on his part turns that into a touchdown.

The problem with our running game is blocking. The OL has been unhealthy and inconsistent. It needs time to gel. At the same time our WRs are not standout blockers. Lloyd and Gaffney both have below average technique and are physically slight WRs. Royal has some good power for his size and solid technique, but he's still a 5'10", 180 pound WR, he's not going to seal off linebackers or safeties consistently.

Broncos fans have been spoiled in their perception of a run game thanks to years of having an OL built to run block first and WRs selected almost as much on their ability to run block as actually get open. We've been a run first team for years. Now we're becoming a pass first team (like the NFL rules are trying to make everybody). There will be some transitional growing pains as the offense finds its way towards doing both.

Moreno does hesitate too much before hitting a hole, likely a result of so often seeing holes disappear as soon as they open and having half the defense in the backfield with him off the snap. But as the blocking improves he'll do that less and less. He is an exceptional physical talent who will break out as a standout RB if given the chance.

Wait until we have some OL cohesiveness with Thomas and Decker setting up Moreno's down field blocks before you try to pigeon hole him as some 3rd down specialist RB.

And FYI, if you want a good comp as to what we can expect from Moreno as he develops, check out Tiki Barber's career stats. Very similar skill sets but Moreno has basically jumped to Barber's year 4 numbers as a rookie. We now have the RB coach who was with Barber from '01 to '03 when he really broke out. It isn't a coincidence that Studesville is here.

BroncoInferno
09-22-2010, 08:02 AM
Garrison Hearst is another RB whose career picked up after he got over nagging injuries and received better blocking. Plenty of examples. This notion that top backs are elite right out of the gate is simply wrong. There are plenty of examples to the contrary.

OABB
09-22-2010, 08:22 AM
Thomas Jones, Tiki Barber, Steven Jackson, Ricky Williams, Warrick Dunn, Emmitt Smith, and Thruman Thomas all had similar rushing numbers to Moreno their first seasons as the full time starter.

To this point MJD has had one season where he's rushed for more yardage than Moreno did as a rookie. He's in his 5th year in the NFL.

How someone can watch Moreno turn a screen pass from Orton that should've been a 1 yard loss into a 45 yard gain when NOT A SINGLE BLOCKER did their job and claim the guy isn't explosive just blows my mind.

Walton and Hochstein both missed their pickups to start that play. Lloyd made a weak effort to block his man. Gaffney basically just had a little slap fight when a real block on his part turns that into a touchdown.

The problem with our running game is blocking. The OL has been unhealthy and inconsistent. It needs time to gel. At the same time our WRs are not standout blockers. Lloyd and Gaffney both have below average technique and are physically slight WRs. Royal has some good power for his size and solid technique, but he's still a 5'10", 180 pound WR, he's not going to seal off linebackers or safeties consistently.

Broncos fans have been spoiled in their perception of a run game thanks to years of having an OL built to run block first and WRs selected almost as much on their ability to run block as actually get open. We've been a run first team for years. Now we're becoming a pass first team (like the NFL rules are trying to make everybody). There will be some transitional growing pains as the offense finds its way towards doing both.

Moreno does hesitate too much before hitting a hole, likely a result of so often seeing holes disappear as soon as they open and having half the defense in the backfield with him off the snap. But as the blocking improves he'll do that less and less. He is an exceptional physical talent who will break out as a standout RB if given the chance.

Wait until we have some OL cohesiveness with Thomas and Decker setting up Moreno's down field blocks before you try to pigeon hole him as some 3rd down specialist RB.

And FYI, if you want a good comp as to what we can expect from Moreno as he develops, check out Tiki Barber's career stats. Very similar skill sets but Moreno has basically jumped to Barber's year 4 numbers as a rookie. We now have the RB coach who was with Barber from '01 to '03 when he really broke out. It isn't a coincidence that Studesville is here.


Excellent excellent post. It's good to get a good take here once and a while. The mane lives.

Dedhed
09-22-2010, 08:50 AM
You must be good at madden. It's a real athletic gift you have to be able to watch a play from your couch in slow motion and choose the correct angles. You should coach. Knowshon needs to learn how to see Eddie royal behind him wile he actually running at full speed while 300 pound men are trying to crush him. He really could benefit from some slow motion or maybe a birds eye camera while he's running.


I also am good at madden and I also have slow mo and I'm telling you Lloyd was not on his man. Ik knowshon continued going forward trufant would have him. It was his move that allowed trufant to be blocked. Watch it again.

And as you do remember that knowshon is a real athlete on a real field with out the benefit of Video analysis you doucher.

Also his move was to turn the defender who gaffney didn't really have around. It was a good defensive play.
Alright, whatever, clearly you can't just admit that Knowshon has things to improve on.

The MVPlaya
09-22-2010, 08:52 AM
Knowshon turned **** into sugar in that play, but because he didn't finalize it into caramel people are pissed.

Cito Pelon
09-22-2010, 09:10 AM
SD would have drafted Moreno if Denver didn't snatch him at #12.

People would be complaining like crazy if SD had Moreno right now, saying "Why didn't Denver get him when they had a chance to at #12? Perfect replacement for Tomlinson."

Dedhed
09-22-2010, 09:35 AM
SD would have drafted Moreno if Denver didn't snatch him at #12.

People would be complaining like crazy if SD had Moreno right now, saying "Why didn't Denver get him when they had a chance to at #12? Perfect replacement for Tomlinson."
Knowshon was my favorite player coming out, and I was giddy when they drafted him.

I think he's going to continue to improve and make a lot of people on the Mane eat their words.

Steve Sewell
09-22-2010, 09:45 AM
Garrison Hearst is another RB whose career picked up after he got over nagging injuries and received better blocking. Plenty of examples. This notion that top backs are elite right out of the gate is simply wrong. There are plenty of examples to the contrary.

But in Madden they are good WTF MORINO

TheChamp24
09-22-2010, 10:52 AM
I never, ever liked the Moreno pick. I hate taking backs in the 1st round unless they are exceptional talents, like Adrian Peterson and Darren McFadden.
A lot of solid backs in the past few years have been drafted outside of round 1 or gone undrafted.
Jones-Drew, Ray Rice, Ryan Grant, Frank Gore, Jamaal Charles, Marion Barber, Matt Forte, Fred Jackson, Michael Turner, Pierre Thomas, Brandon Jacobs.

I don't view Moreno as one of those elite backs, and have always felt we should've taken Orakpo. With our other 1st round pick, there would be a slew of options available. Of course, this is doing a "what if" scenario which doesn't matter.

And people hold where a player was drafted against that player because of the production that should be gained from that. Bear fans call Cedric Benson a bust because he was horrible for them, when in reality he is an average RB in the NFL and nothing more.

ZONA
09-22-2010, 10:59 AM
We shall see people, we shall see. But I'm going to call it now. Moreno is going to be a far better pass catching RB then a pure runner of the ball. I think he still can improve in setting up blocks but I think he's going to end up being a steady and reliable back who will probably get as many catching yards as he does rushing yards. I think you'll see him with 60 rushing and about 50- 60 receiving. Which is good. I think this is where he excels and if people are thinking he's going to turn into a 150 yard rusher per game, I don't see it, not right now anyway.

Beantown Bronco
09-22-2010, 11:05 AM
I'd be thrilled if he had about 1,000 yds rushing and 800+ yds receiving at the end of each year, to go along with say 8+ TDs.

ZONA
09-22-2010, 11:11 AM
I'd be thrilled if he had about 1,000 yds rushing and 800+ yds receiving at the end of each year, to go along with say 8+ TDs.

I agree. That's how I see this team using him as well as what he excels at. Thus I said he would produce results similar to K. Faulk. I do think Moreno is more gifted then Faulk was but I do see this playing out as Moreno being more of a balanced passing\running type of back then just a pure runner like AP or Johnson. I see many many screen passes in Moreno's future here.

Drek
09-22-2010, 12:34 PM
I agree. That's how I see this team using him as well as what he excels at. Thus I said he would produce results similar to K. Faulk. I do think Moreno is more gifted then Faulk was but I do see this playing out as Moreno being more of a balanced passing\running type of back then just a pure runner like AP or Johnson. I see many many screen passes in Moreno's future here.

Except what you just suggested (1K/800, 8 TDs) is literally about 1/3rd of Kevin Faulk's entire 12 year career.

If you want an idea of what that kind of dual threat looks like you have the following examples:

Marshall Faulk - idealized example. Went form one offense where he was the featured carrier/receiver to another.
MJD - pre-2009 when he had Taylor to do the dirty work between the tackles and just made big plays in the running and passing game.
Brian Westbrook - a very good comp here.

And again, the single best comp for Moreno since even before he left college: Tiki Barber.

Beantown Bronco
09-22-2010, 12:35 PM
I agree. That's how I see this team using him as well as what he excels at. Thus I said he would produce results similar to K. Faulk. I do think Moreno is more gifted then Faulk was but I do see this playing out as Moreno being more of a balanced passing\running type of back then just a pure runner like AP or Johnson. I see many many screen passes in Moreno's future here.

Except Faulk averages 600 yards total rushing and receiving and 2.5 TDs a year.

[Edit: Drek beat me to it]

OABB
09-22-2010, 02:48 PM
Alright, whatever, clearly you can't just admit that Knowshon has things to improve on.

I didn't say that. Every player in the nfl has room to improve. I'm just saying is he is very good right now and is taking unfair criticism. Which I really believe is true.

Dedhed
09-22-2010, 03:29 PM
I didn't say that. Every player in the nfl has room to improve. I'm just saying is he is very good right now and is taking unfair criticism. Which I really believe is true.
If you think my criticism of that run is unfair, then you're simply not being objective.

He left yards on the field, and has done so pretty consistently thus far in his career.

Nowhere have a said anything to the effect that he isn't good right now. I said "Here's an example of what he needs to work on".

Hamrob
09-22-2010, 05:11 PM
Excellent comparison to Faulk. Moreno is a good back who can help us win games, but he will never be a great back. I doubt we'll see Moreno in the probowl. He's a 3yd a carry back. A guy who runs hard, dances way too much and has 4.7 speed wearing fireman boots.

KipCorrington25
09-22-2010, 06:25 PM
I don't know, I think he plays hard I'll give him that... but he gets hurt a lot and isn't that fast, isn't big, so he's not a burner and not a power back so why was he the 12th pick overall?

If he was a 4th rounder I'd be happy but at #12 overall you need a franchise back that can carry the load all season or a special athelete that can hit the home run at any moment which he isn't either and will never be.

Overall I've been pretty disapointed with the pick.

Tombstone RJ
09-22-2010, 06:30 PM
Excellent comparison to Faulk. Moreno is a good back who can help us win games, but he will never be a great back. I doubt we'll see Moreno in the probowl. He's a 3yd a carry back. A guy who runs hard, dances way too much and has 4.7 speed wearing fireman boots.

We shall see. I think Moreno has a few things to iron out, along with the oline, along with the entire offense. That being said, he's a good RB with lots of upside.

Drek
09-22-2010, 07:58 PM
I don't know, I think he plays hard I'll give him that... but he gets hurt a lot and isn't that fast, isn't big, so he's not a burner and not a power back so why was he the 12th pick overall?

If he was a 4th rounder I'd be happy but at #12 overall you need a franchise back that can carry the load all season or a special athelete that can hit the home run at any moment which he isn't either and will never be.

Overall I've been pretty disapointed with the pick.

He was never hurt in college and he has yet to miss a regular season start. Has he been getting screwed out of pre-season work due to just two unfortunate breaks but he's gone out and taken the ball every Sunday when it counts.

Moreno's first year was more productive than Ronnie Brown's first year. Actually comparable to Ronnie Brown's best season. Ronnie Brown was the 2nd overall pick and actually has real injury issues. But you don't hear Dolphins fans talking about him being a disappointing pick or a bust.

Moreno is a productive back in the NFL. Its not like we just drafted Curtis Ennis or Lawrence Phillips.

gyldenlove
09-22-2010, 08:01 PM
SD would have drafted Moreno if Denver didn't snatch him at #12.

People would be complaining like crazy if SD had Moreno right now, saying "Why didn't Denver get him when they had a chance to at #12? Perfect replacement for Tomlinson."

The one thing that would shut up all this nonsense is when he has a 100 yard game, could very well be this week.

TheChamp24
09-22-2010, 08:46 PM
He was never hurt in college and he has yet to miss a regular season start. Has he been getting screwed out of pre-season work due to just two unfortunate breaks but he's gone out and taken the ball every Sunday when it counts.

Moreno's first year was more productive than Ronnie Brown's first year. Actually comparable to Ronnie Brown's best season. Ronnie Brown was the 2nd overall pick and actually has real injury issues. But you don't hear Dolphins fans talking about him being a disappointing pick or a bust.

Moreno is a productive back in the NFL. Its not like we just drafted Curtis Ennis or Lawrence Phillips.

Yards aren't everything. The fact Moreno's ypc was a mere 3.8 last year, and 2.8 this year worries me.
You know what Brown's lowest ypc has been? 4.2
Brown boosted a 4.4 ypc his rookie year, and had 2 100 yard rushing games.
What I want is a back that will average around 4.5 yards a carry, setting up 2nd and 6, 3rd and 2 type situations instead of 2nd and 7, 3rd and 4.

OABB
09-22-2010, 08:48 PM
Yards aren't everything. The fact Moreno's ypc was a mere 3.8 last year, and 2.8 this year worries me.
You know what Brown's lowest ypc has been? 4.2
Brown boosted a 4.4 ypc his rookie year, and had 2 100 yard rushing games.
What I want is a back that will average around 4.5 yards a carry, setting up 2nd and 6, 3rd and 2 type situations instead of 2nd and 7, 3rd and 4.

Maybe if we blocked the defensive players his ypc would go up?

TheChamp24
09-22-2010, 08:56 PM
Maybe if we blocked the defensive players his ypc would go up?

Yeah cuz Miami's OL was amazing back in 2005 in Brown's first year, where he averaged 4.4 yards.
Good RB's will get their average over 4 yards no matter the OL. Maybe the ONLY RB I can think of off the top of my head that didn't was Eddie George and he was basically run into the ground in Tennessee, getting over 450 touches in the regular season in 2000.
Jerome Bettis could be another guy, but really he was a strictly power back to get tough yards. One of the most overrated RB's in the history of the game.

Archer81
09-22-2010, 09:01 PM
Yards aren't everything. The fact Moreno's ypc was a mere 3.8 last year, and 2.8 this year worries me.
You know what Brown's lowest ypc has been? 4.2
Brown boosted a 4.4 ypc his rookie year, and had 2 100 yard rushing games.
What I want is a back that will average around 4.5 yards a carry, setting up 2nd and 6, 3rd and 2 type situations instead of 2nd and 7, 3rd and 4.


Knowshon has been less then 100% for the last two seasons. New HC, new offensive scheme and the second year of an offensive line shift. I have a pretty good feeling that the run game will be much improved by the end of the year. Its also a relatively young and banged up offensive line. So they are getting tested.

Also, I dont care if Moreno averages 2.8 yards a carry as long as the team wins,

:Broncos:

TheChamp24
09-22-2010, 09:09 PM
Knowshon has been less then 100% for the last two seasons. New HC, new offensive scheme and the second year of an offensive line shift. I have a pretty good feeling that the run game will be much improved by the end of the year. Its also a relatively young and banged up offensive line. So they are getting tested.

Also, I dont care if Moreno averages 2.8 yards a carry as long as the team wins,

:Broncos:

There won't be very many wins when you only average 2-3 yards a carry.

Archer81
09-22-2010, 09:16 PM
There won't be very many wins when you only average 2-3 yards a carry.


Colts averaged 3.5 ypc last year.

For the reasons I listed, the running game we see now will not be the one we see in November and December. It should improve just from repetition and cohesion of the guys getting used to eachother.

If we get to November and Moreno is still at 2.8 ypc, then we can have this discussion.

:Broncos:

spdirty
09-22-2010, 09:59 PM
Right now I'd HAPPILY trade Knowshons always injured ass for Jahvid Best, Brian Orakpo, Ryan Mathews, or Clay Matthews. Even throw in a 3rd round pick to get him.

Sick of the ****in excuses. 12th overall pick should ****in dominate, and every time I see or think about him I get pissed because of what we could have had.

OABB
09-22-2010, 10:00 PM
Yeah cuz Miami's OL was amazing back in 2005 in Brown's first year, where he averaged 4.4 yards.
Good RB's will get their average over 4 yards no matter the OL. Maybe the ONLY RB I can think of off the top of my head that didn't was Eddie George and he was basically run into the ground in Tennessee, getting over 450 touches in the regular season in 2000.
Jerome Bettis could be another guy, but really he was a strictly power back to get tough yards. One of the most overrated RB's in the history of the game.

Williams had good numbers too. I would think that that is indicative of a good rushing offense.

What are buckhalters ypc this season?

Archer81
09-22-2010, 10:11 PM
Right now I'd HAPPILY trade Knowshons always injured ass for Jahvid Best, Brian Orakpo, Ryan Mathews, or Clay Matthews. Even throw in a 3rd round pick to get him.

Sick of the ****in excuses. 12th overall pick should ****in dominate, and every time I see or think about him I get pissed because of what we could have had.


Wasn't Mathews drafted this year?...

Any RB we put back there is going to have a hard time finding yards. Line is just not where it should be. So dont be mad lil frog.


:Broncos:

spdirty
09-22-2010, 10:29 PM
Wasn't Mathews drafted this year?...

Any RB we put back there is going to have a hard time finding yards. Line is just not where it should be. So dont be mad lil frog.


:Broncos:

I admit Ive been spoiled. After seeing guys like Tatum Bell, Mike Anderson, Reuben Droughns, Peyton Hillis, Clinton Portis, and Olandis Gary look damn good running the ball for us, this guy just pisses me off because he doesn't play the way a 12th overall pick should look. I honestly hate it when we run the ball anymore because i feel like we will get about 2 yards tops.

And the fact that all I hear about is how the line sucks and he's always hurt are nothing but excuses to me. What i'm really pissed about is this running game and its total lack of resembling anything halfway competent. I like seeing us get 4, 5 yards at will on the ground on 3rd and 2, and the fact that we arent is an indictment on either the coaching or the person that picks the personnel.

However, if we are able to get a top 5 offense in points scored, I guess I can get over it. Orton and the wideouts are making up for the lack of a running game right now, and I really have no complaints over the performance of the offense this last week. J'Ville sucked though.

This week if we get shut out and get 50 total yards I won't hold it against the team because of what they have had to go through.

ELEVATION
09-23-2010, 12:09 AM
Yards aren't everything. The fact Moreno's ypc was a mere 3.8 last year, and 2.8 this year worries me.
You know what Brown's lowest ypc has been? 4.2
Brown boosted a 4.4 ypc his rookie year, and had 2 100 yard rushing games.
What I want is a back that will average around 4.5 yards a carry, setting up 2nd and 6, 3rd and 2 type situations instead of 2nd and 7, 3rd and 4.

how can you say yards arent everything, then justify your arguement using a stat specifically measuring yds.........

it is a tad disconcerting at times, but taking into a account everything the OL has gone through the last 2 years...its also understandble the struggles that are ongoing right now with the run game and moreno....and yes while moreno has room for improvement he said so even himself.....the immense crticism he is taking makes it sound like we took Curtis ennis as someone mentioned.

the good news is the guy scores, can pick up the blitz, and catch the ball out of the backfield consistently, now we just need him to get back to 100% healthy, be consistent and in full game shape, and have the OL healthy. They work hand in hand though....without blocking even Chris johnson gets blown up.....

ELEVATION
09-23-2010, 12:10 AM
Right now I'd HAPPILY trade Knowshons always injured ass for Jahvid Best, Brian Orakpo, Ryan Mathews, or Clay Matthews. Even throw in a 3rd round pick to get him.

Sick of the ****in excuses. 12th overall pick should ****in dominate, and every time I see or think about him I get pissed because of what we could have had.

jahvid best/Clay matthews yes

ryan matthews, brian orakpo hell no......

Dedhed
09-23-2010, 06:46 AM
Knowshon has been less then 100% for the last two seasons. New HC, new offensive scheme and the second year of an offensive line shift. I have a pretty good feeling that the run game will be much improved by the end of the year. Its also a relatively young and banged up offensive line. So they are getting tested.

Also, I dont care if Moreno averages 2.8 yards a carry as long as the team wins,

:Broncos:I agree with all of this, and would add that teams have really had very little respect for our passing game since Moreno came into the league.

If the passing game continues on the pace it's at through 2 games, and particularly if Thomas can stretch the field as a true deep threat, the running game will turn around.

I think DCs have dared Orton to beat them, and he's starting to show that he can. Once opposing teams adjust to that the running lanes will open up.

Beantown Bronco
09-23-2010, 06:56 AM
Right now I'd HAPPILY trade Knowshons always injured ass for Jahvid Best, Brian Orakpo, Ryan Mathews, or Clay Matthews. Even throw in a 3rd round pick to get him.


Ohhh, the irony.

misturanderson
09-23-2010, 07:02 AM
Ohhh, the irony.

Don't forget the irony of talking about Best, a guy who dropped considerably in the draft due to durability concerns, in that same light.

Dedhed
09-23-2010, 07:04 AM
Ohhh, the irony.

Particularly that Knowshon has never missed a game due to injury, and Matthews is likely to after only two games.

TheChamp24
09-23-2010, 08:22 AM
how can you say yards arent everything, then justify your arguement using a stat specifically measuring yds.........

it is a tad disconcerting at times, but taking into a account everything the OL has gone through the last 2 years...its also understandble the struggles that are ongoing right now with the run game and moreno....and yes while moreno has room for improvement he said so even himself.....the immense crticism he is taking makes it sound like we took Curtis ennis as someone mentioned.

the good news is the guy scores, can pick up the blitz, and catch the ball out of the backfield consistently, now we just need him to get back to 100% healthy, be consistent and in full game shape, and have the OL healthy. They work hand in hand though....without blocking even Chris johnson gets blown up.....

Saying Moreno rushed for more yards in his rookie year than Ronnie Brown did his rookie year is pointless to me. What matters is how you get to that total yards.
For instance, if a back rushes for exactly 1,200 yards, but it takes 400 carries to get that total, then I'd question the RB. If a RB gets 1,000 yards on 200 carries, then thats a back I'd want.
Would you rather have 2nd and 7, or 2nd and 5?

jahvid best/Clay matthews yes

ryan matthews, brian orakpo hell no......

No to Orakpo? Man everyday I wish we would've taken Orakpo instead of Moreno.

Drek
09-23-2010, 03:43 PM
No to Orakpo? Man everyday I wish we would've taken Orakpo instead of Moreno.

I would take Ayers over Orakpo after seeing the start of their second seasons. Orakpo is a pass rusher, not much more. We have Doom to do that when he's healthy. Ayers is developing into a run stopping monster who can also generate pressure. He's becoming the prototypical strong side 3-4 OLB.

Orakpo reminds me of Mark Anderson with the Chicago Bears.

Drek
09-23-2010, 04:08 PM
Yards aren't everything. The fact Moreno's ypc was a mere 3.8 last year, and 2.8 this year worries me.
You know what Brown's lowest ypc has been? 4.2
Brown boosted a 4.4 ypc his rookie year, and had 2 100 yard rushing games.
What I want is a back that will average around 4.5 yards a carry, setting up 2nd and 6, 3rd and 2 type situations instead of 2nd and 7, 3rd and 4.

If its all about YPC then how about this list:

Ricky Williams - 3.5 YPC his rookie year.
Matt Forte - 3.8 YPC his rookie year.
Reggie Bush - last year was the first time he broke 3.8 YPC (3.6/3.7/3.8 to start his career)
Joseph Addai - 3.8 YPC last season.
Cedric Benson - 3.5 YPC in '08 (the year he "resurrected his career")
Marion Barber - 3.9 YPC as as a rookie, dropped down to 3.7 in '08, first season as a full time starter.
Willis McGahee - started his career with 4.0, 3.8, 3.8 seasons.
Clinton Portis - first year in Washington guess what his YPC was. Thats right, 3.8!
LaDainian Tomlinson - rookie year YPC of 3.6.
Thomas Jones - YPC of 3.4, 3.3, 3.7 his first three years. YPC of 3.6 his first year in New York.
Tiki Barber - YPC of 3.8 as a rookie, 3.2 as a sophomore.
Eddie George - only broke 3.7 YPC three times, career best of 4.1.
Curtis Martin - first six years: 4.0/3.6/4.2/3.5/4.0/3.8.
Marshall Faulk - first three years: 4.0/3.7/3.0
Garrison Hearst - rookie year 3.5, first two as a starter 3.8.
Jerome Bettis - did better than 3.8 exactly 3 times in a 13 year career.
Ricky Watters - best stretch of football from '94 to '99 saw him put up the following YPC: 3.7/3.8/4.0/3.9/3.9/3.7.
Emmitt Smith - rookie year 3.9 YPC.
Thurman Thomas - '94 to '96, in his prime years, 3.8/3.8/3.7.
Marcus Allen - first year as a starter his YPC was 3.8.

What you describe, 4.5 YPC year to year, has been done by less than a dozen RBs in the history of the NFL. You're living in a TD fueled fantasy. Get over it.

skunk
09-23-2010, 04:32 PM
thanks for your opinions. you obviously have some serious problems and should seek help soon? maybe go outside, virgins.

mwill07
09-23-2010, 04:51 PM
I haven't read this whole thread to see if this has been mentioned, but here's a very good video breakdown of Moreno's carries vs SEA. (http://www.milehighreport.com/2010/9/22/1704303/under-review-knowshon-moreno-vs)

This should make the OL's shortcomings crystal clear - see 5:10, for example.

baja
09-23-2010, 05:07 PM
If its all about YPC then how about this list:

Ricky Williams - 3.5 YPC his rookie year.
Matt Forte - 3.8 YPC his rookie year.
Reggie Bush - last year was the first time he broke 3.8 YPC (3.6/3.7/3.8 to start his career)
Joseph Addai - 3.8 YPC last season.
Cedric Benson - 3.5 YPC in '08 (the year he "resurrected his career")
Marion Barber - 3.9 YPC as as a rookie, dropped down to 3.7 in '08, first season as a full time starter.
Willis McGahee - started his career with 4.0, 3.8, 3.8 seasons.
Clinton Portis - first year in Washington guess what his YPC was. Thats right, 3.8!
LaDainian Tomlinson - rookie year YPC of 3.6.
Thomas Jones - YPC of 3.4, 3.3, 3.7 his first three years. YPC of 3.6 his first year in New York.
Tiki Barber - YPC of 3.8 as a rookie, 3.2 as a sophomore.
Eddie George - only broke 3.7 YPC three times, career best of 4.1.
Curtis Martin - first six years: 4.0/3.6/4.2/3.5/4.0/3.8.
Marshall Faulk - first three years: 4.0/3.7/3.0
Garrison Hearst - rookie year 3.5, first two as a starter 3.8.
Jerome Bettis - did better than 3.8 exactly 3 times in a 13 year career.
Ricky Watters - best stretch of football from '94 to '99 saw him put up the following YPC: 3.7/3.8/4.0/3.9/3.9/3.7.
Emmitt Smith - rookie year 3.9 YPC.
Thurman Thomas - '94 to '96, in his prime years, 3.8/3.8/3.7.
Marcus Allen - first year as a starter his YPC was 3.8.

What you describe, 4.5 YPC year to year, has been done by less than a dozen RBs in the history of the NFL. You're living in a TD fueled fantasy. Get over it.

well McFoneco1331 won't be back for a while.

Steve Sewell
09-23-2010, 05:26 PM
If its all about YPC then how about this list:

Ricky Williams - 3.5 YPC his rookie year.
Matt Forte - 3.8 YPC his rookie year.
Reggie Bush - last year was the first time he broke 3.8 YPC (3.6/3.7/3.8 to start his career)
Joseph Addai - 3.8 YPC last season.
Cedric Benson - 3.5 YPC in '08 (the year he "resurrected his career")
Marion Barber - 3.9 YPC as as a rookie, dropped down to 3.7 in '08, first season as a full time starter.
Willis McGahee - started his career with 4.0, 3.8, 3.8 seasons.
Clinton Portis - first year in Washington guess what his YPC was. Thats right, 3.8!
LaDainian Tomlinson - rookie year YPC of 3.6.
Thomas Jones - YPC of 3.4, 3.3, 3.7 his first three years. YPC of 3.6 his first year in New York.
Tiki Barber - YPC of 3.8 as a rookie, 3.2 as a sophomore.
Eddie George - only broke 3.7 YPC three times, career best of 4.1.
Curtis Martin - first six years: 4.0/3.6/4.2/3.5/4.0/3.8.
Marshall Faulk - first three years: 4.0/3.7/3.0
Garrison Hearst - rookie year 3.5, first two as a starter 3.8.
Jerome Bettis - did better than 3.8 exactly 3 times in a 13 year career.
Ricky Watters - best stretch of football from '94 to '99 saw him put up the following YPC: 3.7/3.8/4.0/3.9/3.9/3.7.
Emmitt Smith - rookie year 3.9 YPC.
Thurman Thomas - '94 to '96, in his prime years, 3.8/3.8/3.7.
Marcus Allen - first year as a starter his YPC was 3.8.

What you describe, 4.5 YPC year to year, has been done by less than a dozen RBs in the history of the NFL. You're living in a TD fueled fantasy. Get over it.

Owned. Rep

Too many Madden/fastasy tards on this board.

Dedhed
09-23-2010, 05:32 PM
I haven't read this whole thread to see if this has been mentioned, but here's a very good video breakdown of Moreno's carries vs SEA. (http://www.milehighreport.com/2010/9/22/1704303/under-review-knowshon-moreno-vs)

This should make the OL's shortcomings crystal clear - see 5:10, for example.That is a terrific video. I think every OM member should have to watch that in order to post anything concerning Moreno.

I've been disappointed with KM overall thus far, but most of that is due to the fact that he was my favorite player in the draft 2 years ago and I have a bad habit of comparing him to those RBs we had when we had the best OL in football.

KM needs to improve on some things, but overall he has not been given much of an opportunity in the running game.

spdirty
09-23-2010, 05:50 PM
Ohhh, the irony.

How many games and training camps has Mathews missed?

Dedhed
09-23-2010, 05:52 PM
How many games and training camps has Mathews missed?

How many games has Knowshon missed?

OABB
09-23-2010, 06:16 PM
If its all about YPC then how about this list:

Ricky Williams - 3.5 YPC his rookie year.
Matt Forte - 3.8 YPC his rookie year.
Reggie Bush - last year was the first time he broke 3.8 YPC (3.6/3.7/3.8 to start his career)
Joseph Addai - 3.8 YPC last season.
Cedric Benson - 3.5 YPC in '08 (the year he "resurrected his career")
Marion Barber - 3.9 YPC as as a rookie, dropped down to 3.7 in '08, first season as a full time starter.
Willis McGahee - started his career with 4.0, 3.8, 3.8 seasons.
Clinton Portis - first year in Washington guess what his YPC was. Thats right, 3.8!
LaDainian Tomlinson - rookie year YPC of 3.6.
Thomas Jones - YPC of 3.4, 3.3, 3.7 his first three years. YPC of 3.6 his first year in New York.
Tiki Barber - YPC of 3.8 as a rookie, 3.2 as a sophomore.
Eddie George - only broke 3.7 YPC three times, career best of 4.1.
Curtis Martin - first six years: 4.0/3.6/4.2/3.5/4.0/3.8.
Marshall Faulk - first three years: 4.0/3.7/3.0
Garrison Hearst - rookie year 3.5, first two as a starter 3.8.
Jerome Bettis - did better than 3.8 exactly 3 times in a 13 year career.
Ricky Watters - best stretch of football from '94 to '99 saw him put up the following YPC: 3.7/3.8/4.0/3.9/3.9/3.7.
Emmitt Smith - rookie year 3.9 YPC.
Thurman Thomas - '94 to '96, in his prime years, 3.8/3.8/3.7.
Marcus Allen - first year as a starter his YPC was 3.8.

What you describe, 4.5 YPC year to year, has been done by less than a dozen RBs in the history of the NFL. You're living in a TD fueled fantasy. Get over it.


Ouch. That's gonna leave a mark. At least he's got a good women to support him in his time of need.

TheChamp24
09-23-2010, 08:25 PM
If its all about YPC then how about this list:

Ricky Williams - 3.5 YPC his rookie year.
Matt Forte - 3.8 YPC his rookie year.
Reggie Bush - last year was the first time he broke 3.8 YPC (3.6/3.7/3.8 to start his career)
Joseph Addai - 3.8 YPC last season.
Cedric Benson - 3.5 YPC in '08 (the year he "resurrected his career")
Marion Barber - 3.9 YPC as as a rookie, dropped down to 3.7 in '08, first season as a full time starter.
Willis McGahee - started his career with 4.0, 3.8, 3.8 seasons.
Clinton Portis - first year in Washington guess what his YPC was. Thats right, 3.8!
LaDainian Tomlinson - rookie year YPC of 3.6.
Thomas Jones - YPC of 3.4, 3.3, 3.7 his first three years. YPC of 3.6 his first year in New York.
Tiki Barber - YPC of 3.8 as a rookie, 3.2 as a sophomore.
Eddie George - only broke 3.7 YPC three times, career best of 4.1.
Curtis Martin - first six years: 4.0/3.6/4.2/3.5/4.0/3.8.
Marshall Faulk - first three years: 4.0/3.7/3.0
Garrison Hearst - rookie year 3.5, first two as a starter 3.8.
Jerome Bettis - did better than 3.8 exactly 3 times in a 13 year career.
Ricky Watters - best stretch of football from '94 to '99 saw him put up the following YPC: 3.7/3.8/4.0/3.9/3.9/3.7.
Emmitt Smith - rookie year 3.9 YPC.
Thurman Thomas - '94 to '96, in his prime years, 3.8/3.8/3.7.
Marcus Allen - first year as a starter his YPC was 3.8.

What you describe, 4.5 YPC year to year, has been done by less than a dozen RBs in the history of the NFL. You're living in a TD fueled fantasy. Get over it.

Well, kudos to actually taking the time to do all that. I could take the time and rebuttal each player, one that just jumps out at me is Thurman Thomas as his prime years were not '94-'96 as he average over 4.0 ypc up until '93.
Anyways, my whole argument against Moreno is that people are calling him a good/great RB, when he has not shown to do that and has been average to above-average.
What do all the good RB's in the NFL have in common? A high ypc, and a knack for getting into the end zone.

Until I see more consistency in Moreno, and him be able to turn those 3 yard gains into 4-5 yard gains, he's average/above-average. I honestly don't believe we have a special back in Moreno, but you know what? I hope he proves me wrong.

Dagmar
09-23-2010, 08:39 PM
Well, kudos to actually taking the time to do all that. I could take the time and rebuttal each player, one that just jumps out at me is Thurman Thomas as his prime years were not '94-'96 as he average over 4.0 ypc up until '93.
Anyways, my whole argument against Moreno is that people are calling him a good/great RB, when he has not shown to do that and has been average to above-average.
What do all the good RB's in the NFL have in common? A high ypc, and a knack for getting into the end zone.

Until I see more consistency in Moreno, and him be able to turn those 3 yard gains into 4-5 yard gains, he's average/above-average. I honestly don't believe we have a special back in Moreno, but you know what? I hope he proves me wrong.

Hilarious!

Excellent rebuttal. "I could refute every charge m'lord, I just don't want to."

http://i54.tinypic.com/jv58r7.jpg

Requiem
09-23-2010, 08:44 PM
Moreno is 23 years old, could still be playing college ball for Christ sake. He has had to battle some injuries, and has not had the luxury of playing behind a fluid offensive line with strength and stability.

We have talented players on our front, they are young and still learning. The growing pains are coming. It doesn't matter if we have an All-Pro LT in Clady, when it matters how they come together as a unit. What is the number -- seven or eight different starting units in the past two years since McDaniels' has been here?

It is still a work in process. We have the building blocks, (they've done a great job of acquiring assets there) now the time and meshing will come into place.

Behind a stable unit, Moreno and the rest should have the chance to excel. Talent with Knowshon is not the issue. He will continue to mature and emerge as time goes on. I liken him to a Rick Watters type guy with us -- maybe Curtis Martin. I think either would be just fine. They were both consummate pros.

Rock Chalk
09-23-2010, 08:47 PM
Moreno is 23 years old, could still be playing college ball for Christ sake. He has had to battle some injuries, and has not had the luxury of playing behind a fluid offensive line with strength and stability.

We have talented players on our front, they are young and still learning. The growing pains are coming. It doesn't matter if we have an All-Pro LT in Clady, when it matters how they come together as a unit. What is the number -- seven or eight different starting units in the past two years since McDaniels' has been here?

It is still a work in process. We have the building blocks, (they've done a great job of acquiring assets there) now the time and meshing will come into place.

Behind a stable unit, Moreno and the rest should have the chance to excel. Talent with Knowshon is not the issue. He will continue to mature and emerge as time goes on. I liken him to a Rick Watters type guy with us -- maybe Curtis Martin. I think either would be just fine. They were both consummate pros.

That requires some semblance of patience. Americans in general are an impatient bunch that want it now.

But your post has merit. Im on the fence with Moreno. I see some flashes, I see the guy working hard and when he does get a hole he can get that 7-12 yard run which is all we need. But he does MISS holes and he does dance a little too much. Not everyone is super fantastic right from the start and I have confidence when things mesh a little better up front and everyone is finally on the same page Moreno will break out of the shell he is in.

Rock Chalk
09-23-2010, 09:00 PM
I haven't read this whole thread to see if this has been mentioned, but here's a very good video breakdown of Moreno's carries vs SEA. (http://www.milehighreport.com/2010/9/22/1704303/under-review-knowshon-moreno-vs)

This should make the OL's shortcomings crystal clear - see 5:10, for example.

I noticed that the counter play where that dude think he should have followed Larsen looked more to me like Larsen thought it was a counter and the play was designed to go between teh tackles. At least that's the way the line was blocking. Clady was pushing his guy out and Larsen had to actually go around him.

Larsen blew that one up IMO.

And Daniels does get completely pancaked causing a loss of like 5 yards on Moreno's last run.

He also had 3 attempts at goal line which is going to bring his YPC down, the first two of which were clearly explained as a missed block and one hell of a play by #21 from Seattle. The third was a TD.

Fantastic video though.

Requiem
09-23-2010, 09:04 PM
Agreed.

I think that he is still trying to catch up with the pace of the NFL. He only had two years of college ball and probably didn't acquire enough in that span to be able to tackle it right away. I think the capability is there, and once the front is more established and better opportunities are created for him, I think he'll take advantage of the situation.

More patience and decisiveness on his behalf + stability up front -- I think is the fair formula for success.

I will never expect him to rush for 1,500 + on a consistent basis. I expect him to be a hard worker who can grind out that 1,200 yard season on the ground and add another three to five hundred in receptions. More than enough for a #12 pick. He is also putting points on the board. People forget that.

I think he can be a very good player. Heck, I already think he is "good" right now. He'll get there. Easily.

Soul-Bronco
09-23-2010, 09:20 PM
The only reason that trick play to royal worked last week was because of the attention given to moreno. It was 3rd and 5 and orton was already passing the ball well at that point but the whole defense went straight for KM. He threw a pretty dam good spiral back to orton too.

On that screen play, i agree he has to let the block develop dowfield, but look at it again he looks straight gassed out at that point after breaking three tackles. not being in game shape and having a busted hammy can do that to you.

Drek
09-23-2010, 09:21 PM
Well, kudos to actually taking the time to do all that. I could take the time and rebuttal each player, one that just jumps out at me is Thurman Thomas as his prime years were not '94-'96 as he average over 4.0 ypc up until '93.
Anyways, my whole argument against Moreno is that people are calling him a good/great RB, when he has not shown to do that and has been average to above-average.
What do all the good RB's in the NFL have in common? A high ypc, and a knack for getting into the end zone.

Until I see more consistency in Moreno, and him be able to turn those 3 yard gains into 4-5 yard gains, he's average/above-average. I honestly don't believe we have a special back in Moreno, but you know what? I hope he proves me wrong.

That post took less than ten minutes while making dinner, talking to my wife, feeding my cats, and handling two phone calls from work.

See, on the internet we have this crazy thing called "google". You type in search parameters for information you want and it leads you to a place where you can get it.

For example, the NFL runs a fantastic little database on draft history, found HERE (http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft) were you can search draft history by a variety of categories, like position, and have it provide hot linked player names that take you directly to the player's NFL.com page.

Having actually watched football the last 20 some odd years my brain immediately said "4.5 YPC? That is RARE AS HELL". Turns out I was right. Not only that, the notion that 3.8 YPC in a pass first offense with shaky OL play is some horrible production is also not true. In fact, its a pretty standard number you see from a lot of guys when they first take over a starting role in the NFL.

Also, 94 to 96 was Thomas' prime. He had proven his ability as a rusher in previous seasons and continued to perform throughout that time. Much like how Albert Pujols is now in his prime as a baseball player. His skills developed, peaked, and are now in the plateau that represents his best level of play. His "prime years".

Thomas spent his prime as the single biggest threat on the Bills and someone teams focused the entire game plan around stopping. He was still a highly productive back.

If that isn't enough for you though, I did forget to mention that in '93 when Thomas ran for a pathetic 3.7 YPC he was a Pro-Bowler, a 2nd team All Pro, and a 1st team All AFC selection. I guess everyone in the NFL just had their heads up their asses, what with voting for a 3.7 YPC back and all. He also only scored 6 touchdowns that year. Moreno scored 7 on the ground and two receiving last year.

Speaking of touchdowns, you want to stand by your statement that the other "defining stat" for an RB (besides YPC) is touchdowns? Because my powers of recollection are pretty solid man. I can put together an impressive list of guys who don't meet Moreno's 9 scores last year as well if you'd like.

OABB
09-23-2010, 09:28 PM
That post took less than ten minutes while making dinner, talking to my wife, feeding my cats, and handling two phone calls from work.

See, on the internet we have this crazy thing called "google". You type in search parameters for information you want and it leads you to a place where you can get it.

For example, the NFL runs a fantastic little database on draft history, found HERE (http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft) were you can search draft history by a variety of categories, like position, and have it provide hot linked player names that take you directly to the player's NFL.com page.

Having actually watched football the last 20 some odd years my brain immediately said "4.5 YPC? That is RARE AS HELL". Turns out I was right. Not only that, the notion that 3.8 YPC in a pass first offense with shaky OL play is some horrible production is also not true. In fact, its a pretty standard number you see from a lot of guys when they first take over a starting role in the NFL.

Also, 94 to 96 was Thomas' prime. He had proven his ability as a rusher in previous seasons and continued to perform throughout that time. Much like how Albert Pujols is now in his prime as a baseball player. His skills developed, peaked, and are now in the plateau that represents his best level of play. His "prime years".

Thomas spent his prime as the single biggest threat on the Bills and someone teams focused the entire game plan around stopping. He was still a highly productive back.

If that isn't enough for you though, I did forget to mention that in '93 when Thomas ran for a pathetic 3.7 YPC he was a Pro-Bowler, a 2nd team All Pro, and a 1st team All AFC selection. I guess everyone in the NFL just had their heads up their asses, what with voting for a 3.7 YPC back and all. He also only scored 6 touchdowns that year. Moreno scored 7 on the ground and two receiving last year.

Speaking of touchdowns, you want to stand by your statement that the other "defining stat" for an RB (besides YPC) is touchdowns? Because my powers of recollection are pretty solid man. I can put together an impressive list of guys who don't meet Moreno's 9 scores last year as well if you'd like.

remind me never to argue against you. This is brutal to watch. Well done.

Steve Sewell
09-23-2010, 09:45 PM
remind me never to argue against you. This is brutal to watch. Well done.

whaaaaaaat? McFoneco pwned him with his dope knowledge son. You crazy.

j/k thanks to Drek we can just post his message in every retarded Slowshon thread.

baja
09-23-2010, 09:53 PM
That requires some semblance of patience. Americans in general are an impatient bunch that want it now.

But your post has merit. Im on the fence with Moreno. I see some flashes, I see the guy working hard and when he does get a hole he can get that 7-12 yard run which is all we need. But he does MISS holes and he does dance a little too much. Not everyone is super fantastic right from the start and I have confidence when things mesh a little better up front and everyone is finally on the same page Moreno will break out of the shell he is in.

You think Moreno dances wait to you see LoMo he's a veritable ballerina.....but he's our ballerina.

TheChamp24
09-24-2010, 07:42 AM
Having actually watched football the last 20 some odd years my brain immediately said "4.5 YPC? That is RARE AS HELL". Turns out I was right. Not only that, the notion that 3.8 YPC in a pass first offense with shaky OL play is some horrible production is also not true. In fact, its a pretty standard number you see from a lot of guys when they first take over a starting role in the NFL.

Last year, of the RB's that ran for over 1,000 yards, 15 in total, only 5 of them did not have a ypc of 4.5 or greater. Those that didn't?
Steven Jackson, 4.4
Thomas Jones, 4.2
Adrian Peterson, 4.4
Ryan Grant, 4.4
Cedric Benson, 4.2
And of those 4, only Jackson and Benson didn't wind up with over 10 TD's scored.

2008, 16 RB's ran for over 1,000 yards, 8 of them did not have a ypc of 4.5 or greater.
Of those that didn't, one of them is out of football now(Jamal Lewis) and two others either had their team cut them(Tomlinson) or draft a "replacement" back(Bills with Lynch). The other 5:
Clinton Portis, 4.3
Matt Forte, 3.9
Ryan Grant, 3.9
Steven Jackson, 4.1
Frank Gore, 4.3

2007, probably the worst year for my claim, 17 RB's rushed for over 1,000 yards, and 11 of them ended up not having a ypc of 4.5 or greater.
3 are out of football, Edgerrin James, Willie Parker and Jamal Lewis. Willis McGahee wound up becoming a backup, Lendale White is a backup at best, Joseph Addai had the Colts taking a RB in the 1st in 2009 and Marshawn Lynch had the Bills taking Spiller in 2010. 7 of the 11 have been determined unproductive enough to have full time RB duties.


Also, 94 to 96 was Thomas' prime. He had proven his ability as a rusher in previous seasons and continued to perform throughout that time. Much like how Albert Pujols is now in his prime as a baseball player. His skills developed, peaked, and are now in the plateau that represents his best level of play. His "prime years".

No, they weren't. It was the downhill of his career. Most RB's get to the downside of their career in their late 20's/30's. Heck, after 1992, Thomas saw a steady decline in numbers.

If that isn't enough for you though, I did forget to mention that in '93 when Thomas ran for a pathetic 3.7 YPC he was a Pro-Bowler, a 2nd team All Pro, and a 1st team All AFC selection. I guess everyone in the NFL just had their heads up their asses, what with voting for a 3.7 YPC back and all. He also only scored 6 touchdowns that year. Moreno scored 7 on the ground and two receiving last year.

1993 was a terrible year for RB's. No one in the AFC had a year that just wowed you. Shoot, Johnny Johnson was 2nd in the AFC in total yards in the AFC with 1,462.

Speaking of touchdowns, you want to stand by your statement that the other "defining stat" for an RB (besides YPC) is touchdowns? Because my powers of recollection are pretty solid man. I can put together an impressive list of guys who don't meet Moreno's 9 scores last year as well if you'd like.

Moreno's scores are actually one solid attribute for him. Some guys just couldn't get in the end zone, like Tatum Bell. If he can get his ypc up while maintaining his TD totals, then he'll jump into that good/great back category in my eyes.

Dedhed
09-24-2010, 08:23 AM
Last year, of the RB's that ran for over 1,000 yards, 15 in total, only 5 of them did not have a ypc of 4.5 or greater. Those that didn't?
Steven Jackson, 4.4
Thomas Jones, 4.2
Adrian Peterson, 4.4
Ryan Grant, 4.4
Cedric Benson, 4.2
And of those 4, only Jackson and Benson didn't wind up with over 10 TD's scored.

2008, 16 RB's ran for over 1,000 yards, 8 of them did not have a ypc of 4.5 or greater.
Of those that didn't, one of them is out of football now(Jamal Lewis) and two others either had their team cut them(Tomlinson) or draft a "replacement" back(Bills with Lynch). The other 5:
Clinton Portis, 4.3
Matt Forte, 3.9
Ryan Grant, 3.9
Steven Jackson, 4.1
Frank Gore, 4.3

2007, probably the worst year for my claim, 17 RB's rushed for over 1,000 yards, and 11 of them ended up not having a ypc of 4.5 or greater.
3 are out of football, Edgerrin James, Willie Parker and Jamal Lewis. Willis McGahee wound up becoming a backup, Lendale White is a backup at best, Joseph Addai had the Colts taking a RB in the 1st in 2009 and Marshawn Lynch had the Bills taking Spiller in 2010. 7 of the 11 have been determined unproductive enough to have full time RB duties.




No, they weren't. It was the downhill of his career. Most RB's get to the downside of their career in their late 20's/30's. Heck, after 1992, Thomas saw a steady decline in numbers.



1993 was a terrible year for RB's. No one in the AFC had a year that just wowed you. Shoot, Johnny Johnson was 2nd in the AFC in total yards in the AFC with 1,462.



Moreno's scores are actually one solid attribute for him. Some guys just couldn't get in the end zone, like Tatum Bell. If he can get his ypc up while maintaining his TD totals, then he'll jump into that good/great back category in my eyes.Funny you mentioned Tatum Bell, he averaged 4.9 yds/carry over his entire career. Must be one of the best backs in history, right?

Rock Chalk
09-24-2010, 08:25 AM
Last year, of the RB's that ran for over 1,000 yards, 15 in total, only 5 of them did not have a ypc of 4.5 or greater. Those that didn't?
Steven Jackson, 4.4
Thomas Jones, 4.2
Adrian Peterson, 4.4
Ryan Grant, 4.4
Cedric Benson, 4.2
And of those 4, only Jackson and Benson didn't wind up with over 10 TD's scored.

2008, 16 RB's ran for over 1,000 yards, 8 of them did not have a ypc of 4.5 or greater.
Of those that didn't, one of them is out of football now(Jamal Lewis) and two others either had their team cut them(Tomlinson) or draft a "replacement" back(Bills with Lynch). The other 5:
Clinton Portis, 4.3
Matt Forte, 3.9
Ryan Grant, 3.9
Steven Jackson, 4.1
Frank Gore, 4.3

2007, probably the worst year for my claim, 17 RB's rushed for over 1,000 yards, and 11 of them ended up not having a ypc of 4.5 or greater.
3 are out of football, Edgerrin James, Willie Parker and Jamal Lewis. Willis McGahee wound up becoming a backup, Lendale White is a backup at best, Joseph Addai had the Colts taking a RB in the 1st in 2009 and Marshawn Lynch had the Bills taking Spiller in 2010. 7 of the 11 have been determined unproductive enough to have full time RB duties.




No, they weren't. It was the downhill of his career. Most RB's get to the downside of their career in their late 20's/30's. Heck, after 1992, Thomas saw a steady decline in numbers.



1993 was a terrible year for RB's. No one in the AFC had a year that just wowed you. Shoot, Johnny Johnson was 2nd in the AFC in total yards in the AFC with 1,462.



Moreno's scores are actually one solid attribute for him. Some guys just couldn't get in the end zone, like Tatum Bell. If he can get his ypc up while maintaining his TD totals, then he'll jump into that good/great back category in my eyes.

You didn't refute a single point. He said "Not only that, the notion that 3.8 YPC in a pass first offense with shaky OL play is some horrible production is also not true. In fact, its a pretty standard number you see from a lot of guys when they first take over a starting role in the NFL."

Not a single one of those players you mentioned were taking over a starting role in the NFL.

His 4.5 ypc claim was over the course of a career. His examples were RBs who are widely regarded as elite backs or upper tier backs anyway, were from their ROOKIE seasons which is what he was comparing Moreno to.

Drek
09-24-2010, 08:43 AM
Last year, of the RB's that ran for over 1,000 yards, 15 in total, only 5 of them did not have a ypc of 4.5 or greater. Those that didn't?
Steven Jackson, 4.4
Thomas Jones, 4.2
Adrian Peterson, 4.4
Ryan Grant, 4.4
Cedric Benson, 4.2
And of those 4, only Jackson and Benson didn't wind up with over 10 TD's scored.

2008, 16 RB's ran for over 1,000 yards, 8 of them did not have a ypc of 4.5 or greater.
Of those that didn't, one of them is out of football now(Jamal Lewis) and two others either had their team cut them(Tomlinson) or draft a "replacement" back(Bills with Lynch). The other 5:
Clinton Portis, 4.3
Matt Forte, 3.9
Ryan Grant, 3.9
Steven Jackson, 4.1
Frank Gore, 4.3

2007, probably the worst year for my claim, 17 RB's rushed for over 1,000 yards, and 11 of them ended up not having a ypc of 4.5 or greater.
3 are out of football, Edgerrin James, Willie Parker and Jamal Lewis. Willis McGahee wound up becoming a backup, Lendale White is a backup at best, Joseph Addai had the Colts taking a RB in the 1st in 2009 and Marshawn Lynch had the Bills taking Spiller in 2010. 7 of the 11 have been determined unproductive enough to have full time RB duties.

What is your point?

You talk about Moreno like he needs to put up 4.5 YPC year on year. I said that guys doing that is rare as hell. It is. The league leaders for rushing yardage do it but that list rotates every year, due to the shortened lifespan of RBs in the NFL.

Go look at the career numbers for the best RBs of the last 20 years. All of them have up and down years by YPC. It borders on complete statistical irrelevance as a year to year predictor.

If Chris Johnson keeps at the pace of his first two years for another 5 or 6 he's a first ballot hall of famer. Right now he's rocking a 4.1 YPC.

Adrian Peterson has been considered either 1A or 1B (behind Johnson) as the best back in the NFL for much of his career. He dipped below 4.5 YPC last season.

Steven Jackson, one of the better backs in the NFL, has never broken 4.5 YPC as a full time starter.

Two of Frank Gore's four seasons as a full time starter he failed to reach a 4.5 YPC.

Maurice Jones Drew had an impressive 5.7 YPC his first year, but then put up 4.6 (split duty back with Taylor), 4.2 (began to take over the starting job), and 4.5 (full time starter) YPC seasons. In short, after his first year when no one knew who he was he's been unable to average 4.5 YPC.

Since leaving Denver Clinton Portis has had four seasons with over 1200 yards rushing and started all 16 games. Not once did he pass a YPC of 4.3.

Thomas Jones has only reached 4.5 YPC once in his career as a full time starter.

LaDainian Tomlinson was below 4.5 YPC in '04, '05, and '08. '04 and '05 obviously preceded his record setting '06 campaign. In reality Tomlinson had only two 2 year windows in which he was a 4.5 or better YPC back. He is supposed to be the most dominant running back of this decade and he only managed what you think Moreno should do every year 4 of his 10 season in the NFL.

Over the last several years these have been the consistently elite backs in the league. As you can see a 4.5 YPC is not something they're guaranteed to produce every year, even Johnson, Peterson, and Tomlinson who look like first ballot HOFers right now.

No, they weren't. It was the downhill of his career. Most RB's get to the downside of their career in their late 20's/30's. Heck, after 1992, Thomas saw a steady decline in numbers.
Of course. Teams played him differently. But his peers and coaches thought enough of him to win multiple accolades in '93 and continued to be the bell cow for the franchise through '96.

Are you seriously trying to argue that a HOF running back was only an elite player for four years of his career? That the next four, where he consistently ran for over 1K yards when that actually still meant something, where his team made the playoffs three of those four years (including the Super Bowl in one of them), and where he was still widely regarded by his peers as an elite back was the downside of his career?

Talk about revisionist history to defend an argument.

Moreno's scores are actually one solid attribute for him. Some guys just couldn't get in the end zone, like Tatum Bell. If he can get his ypc up while maintaining his TD totals, then he'll jump into that good/great back category in my eyes.
And again, a low YPC in the first year of an NFL career is hardly something new for rookie RBs in the NFL. The only statistically consistent thing you can determine from YPC is that it goes up as a player is in the NFL longer, works in the same system longer, and works behind the same line longer.

In short, YPC is a product of familiarity. That passes the eyeball test since familiarity is what so much of the NFL offensive game is built around. Trying to use a 3.8 YPC rookie season as a referendum on his future in the NFL just flat out does not hold water.

Cito Pelon
09-24-2010, 09:14 AM
The one thing that would shut up all this nonsense is when he has a 100 yard game, could very well be this week.

Moreno avg'd 15.4 rushes per game in 2009. Obviously if he had more carries he could get to 100 yds in a game easily. 26 carries, actually, with a 3.8 ypc.

This bagging on Moreno by some people is nitpicking to an extreme. The guy is a good back.

1160 yds from scrimmage in 2009. 182 yds from scrimmage this year, which extrapolates to 1456 yds from scrimmage for the season. And I expect we'll see 1800-2000 yds from scrimmage by the end of the year. The guy is a good back, it's just that some people have to nitpick to an extreme for whatever reason.

baja
09-24-2010, 09:24 AM
Another way to say it is if the standard for a good back is 4.5 YPC why would a team that had one ever pass.

MaloCS
09-24-2010, 01:00 PM
For whatever reason the guy isn't making the transition. We can sit here all day and roll out stats after stats after stats but the only thing stats are good for are wannabes playing fantasy football. I prefer to trust my own eyes and my experience tells me the guy is struggling with the transition to the NFL.

His problems aren't from an average line or a lack of talent or not enough time in the system; his problem comes from a lack of confidence and the inability to run with authority.

After learning that he's not going to play this weekend it's apparent the coaches have lost interest. At least for game 3 of the 2010 season.

Beantown Bronco
09-24-2010, 01:13 PM
He was the #1 rookie RB in the entire league last year....but he's struggling with the transition. Yikes.

~Crash~
09-24-2010, 07:19 PM
He was the #1 rookie RB in the entire league last year....but he's struggling with the transition. Yikes.

yep all those great runs up the middle and all for no gain . super stud .

Look we should all hope he develops but to this point sorry I cannot call him much . I think he can develop but at this point he is not elite in any fashion

azbroncfan
09-24-2010, 07:22 PM
He was the #1 rookie RB in the entire league last year....but he's struggling with the transition. Yikes.

Wells looked much better than Moreno. Did Moreno even have a 100 yard game?

Beantown Bronco
09-24-2010, 07:24 PM
yep all those great runs up the middle and all for no gain . super stud .

Look we should all hope he develops but to this point sorry I cannot call him much . I think he can develop but at this point he is not elite in any fashion

Who is saying he is elite already? Who? Name one.

I am absolutely amazed by people that not only just love to hate, but can't acknowledge that there is a HUGE area in between "sucks" and "elite". And on top of that, they can't understand that even Moreno supporters acknowledge that he has plenty of room to grow and has not even scratched the surface of his potential. This is basic stuff people. If you can type on a computer, you should be able to see and understand this.

oubronco
09-24-2010, 07:26 PM
If Moreno would quit dancing so much and just hit the hole with authority you wouldn't hear all these clowns beeotchin about him

Beantown Bronco
09-24-2010, 07:27 PM
Wells looked much better than Moreno. Did Moreno even have a 100 yard game?

1. That's debatable.
2. Wells was running against 6 and 7 man nickel fronts all season as a result of Arizona's superior passing game. Moreno? 8 man fronts if he was lucky last year. This is elementary stuff.
3. How's Wells doing this year?

TheChamp24
09-24-2010, 07:54 PM
Who is saying he is elite already? Who? Name one.

I am absolutely amazed by people that not only just love to hate, but can't acknowledge that there is a HUGE area in between "sucks" and "elite". And on top of that, they can't understand that even Moreno supporters acknowledge that he has plenty of room to grow and has not even scratched the surface of his potential. This is basic stuff people. If you can type on a computer, you should be able to see and understand this.

People get antsy at me for saying Moreno has the look of an average RB right now. That doesn't mean he sucks, that means he is serviceable for the time being.

1. That's debatable.
2. Wells was running against 6 and 7 man nickel fronts all season as a result of Arizona's superior passing game. Moreno? 8 man fronts if he was lucky last year. This is elementary stuff.
3. How's Wells doing this year?

It sure would be hard to do better than Moreno this year though, I mean only 25 backs are doing better than him right now.
Seriously though, last year's rookie RB's were nothing special in terms of 1st year stats. 2 backups and 1 starter, and then 1 guy who was 50-50 basically in carries. If the starter(Moreno) DIDN'T have top yardage, then it'd be a massive failure on his part.
With that said, I never really liked the guys from the RB class last year. They never wowed me with college film.

Dagmar
09-24-2010, 08:22 PM
People get antsy at me for saying Moreno has the look of an average RB right now. That doesn't mean he sucks, that means he is serviceable for the time being.



It sure would be hard to do better than Moreno this year though, I mean only 25 backs are doing better than him right now.
Seriously though, last year's rookie RB's were nothing special in terms of 1st year stats. 2 backups and 1 starter, and then 1 guy who was 50-50 basically in carries. If the starter(Moreno) DIDN'T have top yardage, then it'd be a massive failure on his part.
With that said, I never really liked the guys from the RB class last year. They never wowed me with college film.

So we pussed out of responding to Drek and tried for Beantown then?

ZONA
09-24-2010, 08:29 PM
1. That's debatable.
2. Wells was running against 6 and 7 man nickel fronts all season as a result of Arizona's superior passing game. Moreno? 8 man fronts if he was lucky last year. This is elementary stuff.
3. How's Wells doing this year?

I think he got hurt in game 1.

The MVPlaya
09-24-2010, 08:40 PM
So we pussed out of responding to Drek and tried for Beantown then?

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/midget_wrestling.gif

SouthStndJunkie
09-24-2010, 08:41 PM
I think he got hurt in game 1.

Wells had minor knee surgery and missed the first two weeks of the season, he is supposed to play this weekend.

WolfpackGuy
09-24-2010, 08:46 PM
If Moreno would quit dancing so much and just hit the hole with authority you wouldn't hear all these clowns beeotchin about him

Unfortunately, you can't coach that out of anybody.

Beantown Bronco
09-25-2010, 05:11 AM
People get antsy at me for saying Moreno has the look of an average RB right now. That doesn't mean he sucks, that means he is serviceable for the time being.

Did I quote you? Nope. I'm talking to those who say he sucks, can't transition to the NFL level, doesn't run for authority (even though, no matter where he gets hit, he ALWAYS falls forward at the end of runs).

If I'm talking to you or about you, I'll quote you.

It sure would be hard to do better than Moreno this year though, I mean only 25 backs are doing better than him right now.

If you're gonna throw out a number, at least be right about it. He's currently 25th in rushing yards, so that would mean 24 people are ahead of him, not 25. But you'll also note that one of those is a QB. So that means 23 backs have more rushing yards. And that doesn't mean they are "doing better" than him at all. If numbers are your thing, why not pick TDs? He's tied for 4th in the league in rushing TDs. Oh yeah, doesn't fit your argument.

Numbers are meaningless without context.

Drek
09-25-2010, 05:20 AM
Unfortunately, you can't coach that out of anybody.

Tiki Barber got over it. His coach when he did? Eric Studesville.

Moreno's coach now? Eric Studesville.

He's had 18 games at the pro level, has yet to have any consistency in his OL, has dealt with a couple nagging non-serious injuries already, and has missed almost the entirety of two pre-seasons.

Yet much of this board is ready to write him off. Damn, I would've loved to see how this place would've responded to the start of Tiki Barber's or Thomas Jones' careers.

The moral of those two examples by the way? You give a talented young back some time. The Giants had faith in Barber and were repaid in kind by some outstanding years down the road. It would've been even better for them if Barber hadn't retired early. The Cardinals meanwhile cut bait on Jones after just a few seasons only to see him break out in year six and provide the kind of exceptional production they've been searching for in the running game all along.

Rock Chalk
09-25-2010, 06:08 AM
Wow this thread just has some serious pwnage.

Dedhed
09-25-2010, 07:50 AM
If Moreno would quit dancing so much and just hit the hole with authority you wouldn't hear all these clowns beeotchin about him

You realize there's a prerequisite in that statement don't you?

cutthemdown
09-25-2010, 08:27 AM
Tiki Barber got over it. His coach when he did? Eric Studesville.

Moreno's coach now? Eric Studesville.

He's had 18 games at the pro level, has yet to have any consistency in his OL, has dealt with a couple nagging non-serious injuries already, and has missed almost the entirety of two pre-seasons.

Yet much of this board is ready to write him off. Damn, I would've loved to see how this place would've responded to the start of Tiki Barber's or Thomas Jones' careers.

The moral of those two examples by the way? You give a talented young back some time. The Giants had faith in Barber and were repaid in kind by some outstanding years down the road. It would've been even better for them if Barber hadn't retired early. The Cardinals meanwhile cut bait on Jones after just a few seasons only to see him break out in year six and provide the kind of exceptional production they've been searching for in the running game all along.

Which means what? I mean Maroney is in same boat then. Cut loose before yr 6. Tons of rbs in the NFL have been cut loose early on because they don't get it done. Just because you find a few examples of ones who then went on to play well means little.

Moreno better finish up this yr strong at some point or no way Broncos go into next yr counting on him. To do so would be foolish.

TheChamp24
09-25-2010, 09:00 AM
What is your point?

You talk about Moreno like he needs to put up 4.5 YPC year on year. I said that guys doing that is rare as hell. It is. The league leaders for rushing yardage do it but that list rotates every year, due to the shortened lifespan of RBs in the NFL.

I'm saying in order for Moreno to be classified as a good/great back, like many on here are saying, he needs to kick it up a notch in production. Does he have to average 4.5 ypc every year? No, but around that.

Go look at the career numbers for the best RBs of the last 20 years. All of them have up and down years by YPC. It borders on complete statistical irrelevance as a year to year predictor.

I understand YPC varies, but the good/great backs, it hovers around 4.5

If Chris Johnson keeps at the pace of his first two years for another 5 or 6 he's a first ballot hall of famer. Right now he's rocking a 4.1 YPC.

Adrian Peterson has been considered either 1A or 1B (behind Johnson) as the best back in the NFL for much of his career. He dipped below 4.5 YPC last season.

Chris Johnson and Adrian Peterson are the best backs in the game. Peterson's YPC last year was 4.4, and he scored 18 TD's. This year so far, a 4.9 YPC.
Johnson is sporting a 4.1 YPC, but that includes a game against one of the best defenses in the game today, the Steelers.

Steven Jackson, one of the better backs in the NFL, has never broken 4.5 YPC as a full time starter.

Two of Frank Gore's four seasons as a full time starter he failed to reach a 4.5 YPC.

Maurice Jones Drew had an impressive 5.7 YPC his first year, but then put up 4.6 (split duty back with Taylor), 4.2 (began to take over the starting job), and 4.5 (full time starter) YPC seasons. In short, after his first year when no one knew who he was he's been unable to average 4.5 YPC.

Since leaving Denver Clinton Portis has had four seasons with over 1200 yards rushing and started all 16 games. Not once did he pass a YPC of 4.3.

Thomas Jones has only reached 4.5 YPC once in his career as a full time starter.

LaDainian Tomlinson was below 4.5 YPC in '04, '05, and '08. '04 and '05 obviously preceded his record setting '06 campaign. In reality Tomlinson had only two 2 year windows in which he was a 4.5 or better YPC back. He is supposed to be the most dominant running back of this decade and he only managed what you think Moreno should do every year 4 of his 10 season in the NFL.

Jackson hasn't broken 4.5, but has come close as his career YPC is 4.3, very respectable.

Gore's career YPC is 4.7, and never dipped below 4.2.

Jones-Drew has a career YPC of 4.6, and scored 12 TD's rushing + 2 receiving in the year he didn't have a YPC of 4.5.

Clinton Portis changed to a more power running back, which I thought was never a good fit for him. In Denver, he was a great back, in Washington, he was a good/solid back.

Thomas Jones is one of those guys who is a decent back, but nothing spectacular. A guy you would want on your team to be your RB, and funny how he was run off of 2 teams that he produced for. Maybe 3 if you count Tampa Bay.

Tomlinson not only produced a solid YPC, but he got into the endzone. 18 TD's, 20 TD's, and even the years where he has been on the downhill of his career, still sporting 10+ TD's.

Over the last several years these have been the consistently elite backs in the league. As you can see a 4.5 YPC is not something they're guaranteed to produce every year, even Johnson, Peterson, and Tomlinson who look like first ballot HOFers right now.


Of course. Teams played him differently. But his peers and coaches thought enough of him to win multiple accolades in '93 and continued to be the bell cow for the franchise through '96.

Are you seriously trying to argue that a HOF running back was only an elite player for four years of his career? That the next four, where he consistently ran for over 1K yards when that actually still meant something, where his team made the playoffs three of those four years (including the Super Bowl in one of them), and where he was still widely regarded by his peers as an elite back was the downside of his career?

Talk about revisionist history to defend an argument.

If he was still an elite back '94-'96, don't you think he would've at least made a Pro Bowl appearance? Fact is, Thurman's production slipped each year, thus being the DOWNHILL of his career. Every RB has it, some it happens in the span of a year, some it happens over the course of a couple years. But RB's truly elite years are smaller than any other position.
Walter Payton and Curtis Martin both dropped off in the span of 1 year.
Emmitt Smith saw his production totals drop each year after 1999 until he retired.


And again, a low YPC in the first year of an NFL career is hardly something new for rookie RBs in the NFL. The only statistically consistent thing you can determine from YPC is that it goes up as a player is in the NFL longer, works in the same system longer, and works behind the same line longer.

In short, YPC is a product of familiarity. That passes the eyeball test since familiarity is what so much of the NFL offensive game is built around. Trying to use a 3.8 YPC rookie season as a referendum on his future in the NFL just flat out does not hold water.

So can I use his 2.8 YPC in his 2nd year then?

TheChamp24
09-25-2010, 09:05 AM
If you're gonna throw out a number, at least be right about it. He's currently 25th in rushing yards, so that would mean 24 people are ahead of him, not 25. But you'll also note that one of those is a QB. So that means 23 backs have more rushing yards. And that doesn't mean they are "doing better" than him at all. If numbers are your thing, why not pick TDs? He's tied for 4th in the league in rushing TDs. Oh yeah, doesn't fit your argument.

Numbers are meaningless without context.

Yeah, rushing yards don't mean much. I said 25 because I threw out Vick and Cadillac Williams who are ahead of him, but added Mike Tolbert and Jahvid Best who are just below him in yards.
All those other running backs have a better YPC and more or close to the yards Moreno has. The 2 TD's Moreno has is the only thing respectable about his numbers right now.

OABB
09-25-2010, 09:45 AM
Whose next on the nancies radar if moreno picks it up? I noticed since orton started playing better, all of the sudden moreno became the problem. Do you guys have a plan abou whose next? Just curious.

azbroncfan
09-25-2010, 10:49 AM
I only hope that Moreno can contribute to 4 superbowl teams and have meaningful plays in each of them.

WolfpackGuy
09-25-2010, 11:04 AM
Tiki Barber got over it. His coach when he did? Eric Studesville.

Moreno's coach now? Eric Studesville.

He's had 18 games at the pro level, has yet to have any consistency in his OL, has dealt with a couple nagging non-serious injuries already, and has missed almost the entirety of two pre-seasons.

Yet much of this board is ready to write him off. Damn, I would've loved to see how this place would've responded to the start of Tiki Barber's or Thomas Jones' careers.

The moral of those two examples by the way? You give a talented young back some time. The Giants had faith in Barber and were repaid in kind by some outstanding years down the road. It would've been even better for them if Barber hadn't retired early. The Cardinals meanwhile cut bait on Jones after just a few seasons only to see him break out in year six and provide the kind of exceptional production they've been searching for in the running game all along.

Fair statements. Barber was a valuable multi-purpose player his first few years, and eventually became "the guy" out of necessity. I agree. He tended to dance in limited carries in his early career, but it was to a MUCH lesser degree than Moreno. Whether it was because of coaching or just being more comfortable as a full time RB are debatable.

The only comments I have on Jones are he would've been perfect for the old ZBS, and many former Cardinals from their dark period thrived once they left Arizona.

Moreno's solid, just not the "game breaker if not for the OL" some make him out to be.

TomServo
09-26-2010, 12:31 AM
kiosk guy straight out of the mall, 37 yard long run. young stud No1 No.12 overall 35 yard long run.
moreno OK but GOD not worth the 12th pick in the entire draft. OYEAH we could have had Orapko.

TomServo
09-26-2010, 12:46 AM
but we have morenos hand slap dance Yahoo

TomServo
09-26-2010, 12:47 AM
YAY to go along with his 2.8 lifetime AVG YPC

Bob's your Information Minister
09-26-2010, 12:50 AM
Slowshon is slow...learn to live with it.

driver
09-26-2010, 05:26 AM
kiosk guy straight out of the mall, 37 yard long run. young stud No1 No.12 overall 35 yard long run.
moreno OK but GOD not worth the 12th pick in the entire draft. OYEAH we could have had Orapko.

What I thought when they took him. Only 2 Georgia backs that have ever been any real good Walker and TD.

Beantown Bronco
09-26-2010, 09:38 AM
Whose next on the nancies radar if moreno picks it up? I noticed since orton started playing better, all of the sudden moreno became the problem. Do you guys have a plan abou whose next? Just curious.

Gaffney. He's the only thing in between D. Thomas and the HOF. :)