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TheReverend
09-12-2010, 09:58 PM
Okay, so after my blow up thread, everyone wanted to pin point my criticism of Kyle Orton's play today and ignore the rest of the facts. Anyways, during the Redskins I was starting to wonder if maybe I was seeing it wrong. Naturally I realized that wasn't likely so I pulled the game stats up.

Here's Kyle on 3rd down out of EIGHT 3rd down drop backs:

2 completions for 20 yards
2 first downs out of 8 for a whopping 25% conversion rate
3 sacks for 21 yards
1 run for 5 yards
2 delay of game penalties
4 yards of offense gained in 8 3rd downs for 0.5 ypp

That's not embarrassing to you? If you're satisfied with that and consider play like that "the bright spot" then you should be ashamed of yourself as a Bronco fan, in my opinion.

3-11 sacked for -8 yards
3-3 incomplete short mid
3-8 short mid to royal for 11 yards
3-10 sacked for -6 yards
3-7 sacked for -7 yards
3-4 runs for 5 yards
3-15 short left to Royal for 9 yards
3-3 incomplete short right to lloyd

And a fourth down for good measure:
4-3 incomplete short right to lloyd

KevinJames
09-12-2010, 09:59 PM
Our offensive line wasn't really helping the cause....

Popps
09-12-2010, 10:00 PM
Uh oh... Mock II is back.

TheReverend
09-12-2010, 10:01 PM
Uh oh... Mock II is back.

Why don't you discuss the points?

I forgot, that's not your thing.

Popps
09-12-2010, 10:02 PM
Why don't you discuss the points?

I forgot, that's not your thing.

You won't remember in the morning, anyway.

Cito Pelon
09-12-2010, 10:07 PM
Why don't you discuss the points?

I forgot, that's not your thing.

Give it a rest, Rev.

WABronco
09-12-2010, 10:08 PM
He's just mad he didn't have the biggest tebowner in the stadium today.

TheReverend
09-12-2010, 10:08 PM
Give it a rest, Rev.

See the thread topic.

See the downs.

See the performance.

Why would we want to give this a rest? Why does anyone want to excuse a performance like that?

TheReverend
09-12-2010, 10:10 PM
He's just mad he didn't have the biggest tebowner in the stadium today.

Oh there were some HUGE ones.

And some hatred too.

Took a pic of this in the parking lot because I thought it was hilarious.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs430.snc4/47327_425535858154_515728154_5030202_6007990_n.jpg

TheElusiveKyleOrton
09-12-2010, 10:11 PM
See the thread topic.

See the downs.

See the performance.

Why would we want to give this a rest? Why does anyone want to excuse a performance like that?

You know, you're absolutely right. Let's use one of our excellent alternatives instead. Quinn, who can't hit the broad side of a barn from INSIDE the barn. Or Tebow, who still has trouble taking the snap from center.

Excellent.

The Joker
09-12-2010, 10:12 PM
He wasn't embarrassing, but at the same time I'm not sure what game the people saying he looked good out there were watching.

Yes, he put up some alright numbers and made one or two nice throws, so he was hardly abysmal.

But we do run a very QB friendly system, we get a lot of YAC on plays that are basically extended handoffs. And when it came down to it, on those 3rd down situation where they knew we had to pass the ball, he generally didn't get the job done or look like he was ever going to. And against a defense that probably isn't very good either.

Generally though I think there are bigger things to worry about. Orton isn't going to be the long term solution for us at QB anyway, so I'm more worried about some of the other problems we had today.

TheReverend
09-12-2010, 10:15 PM
You know, you're absolutely right. Let's use one of our excellent alternatives instead. Quinn, who can't hit the broad side of a barn from INSIDE the barn. Or Tebow, who still has trouble taking the snap from center.

Excellent.

I'm not suggesting benching him. I'm saying it's unacceptable and Josh has to have him MUCH better prepared or we are in for the season cutthemdown has been predicting.

Popps
09-12-2010, 10:18 PM
I'm not suggesting benching him. I'm saying it's unacceptable and Josh has to have him MUCH better prepared or we are in for the season cutthemdown has been predicting.

Orton had a 90 QB rating, 300 yards passing, and even ran for a first down or two. His INT came when he was in a pass-only hole with a minute left in the game.

He was the LEAST of our problems today.


For a guy who touts himself as having an elite football education, you should understand that a team with no offensive line has no balance... and hence ANY QB in that system is going to run into problems.


You're the only person outside of BPC on this forum who will be pushing this agenda, dude. The rest of us were pretty happy with Orton's play today.

TheReverend
09-12-2010, 10:21 PM
Orton had a 90 QB rating, 300 yards passing, and even ran for a first down or two. His INT came when he was in a pass-only hole with a minute left in the game.

He was the LEAST of our problems today.


For a guy who touts himself as having an elite football education, you should understand that a team with no offensive line has no balance... and hence ANY QB in that system is going to run into problems.


You're the only person outside of BPC on this forum who will be pushing this agenda, dude. The rest of us were pretty happy with Orton's play today.

Steps to follow:
1. See the original post in this thread.

2. Read it.

3. Make a comment on it.

4. If you think 25% on 3rd down (along with 2 penalties on him on 3rd down) is the "LEAST of our problems" then I suggest you watch it again.

Lev Vyvanse
09-12-2010, 10:21 PM
I'm not suggesting benching him. I'm saying it's unacceptable and Josh has to have him MUCH better prepared or we are in for the season cutthemdown has been predicting.

We've got one week to pull our head out. We lose to the seahawks and this season will be over before it really got going.

TheReverend
09-12-2010, 10:22 PM
PS. I don't tout myself as anything. I could care less about what people think here. Hence the last two threads which are very unpopular with the Orton apologist fanboys.

TheReverend
09-12-2010, 10:23 PM
We've got one week to pull our head out. We lose to the seahawks and this season will be over before it really got going.

I disagree. Seattle looked pretty sharp today so if we play like we did today, we'll get absolutely destroyed.

Regardless, the season is never over 2 games in. I'm looking forward to seeing how Josh and the team respond to some adversity after caving to it last season.

The MVPlaya
09-12-2010, 10:26 PM
Rev, I know you're not too great at watching games live, maybe your view sucked or something but our oline was playing like ass and Kampman was all up in Orton's ass (no homo) all day.

Let's go through the 3rd downs today:

1) 3rd and 1... Moreno for 6 yards, called back for holding then 3rd and 11.... Kampman sacks Orton

2) 3rd and 3... Orton incompletion to Gaffney (not a good play here, he was looking for the PI)

3) 3rd and 9... Orton competes to Royal for 11 yards

4) 3rd and 3.. Buckhalter rushes for 2 yards ... 4th and 1 Buckhalter runs for 2 more for a 1st (LOOK A RUSHING DOWN!)

5) 3rd and 10... Orton sacked by Alualu (this is the one where Daniels completely wiffed the help block... of course you didn't see since you a) suck at watching games live b) probably didn't see the replay)

6) 3rd and 7... Orton sacked by Kampon + Middleton

7) 3rd and 4... Orton rushes for 5

8)3rd and 15... caused by a false start... screen pass to Royal for 9 that led to a FG

9) 3rd and 3... Orton Lloyd incomplete

Orton gets sacked on 3/9 of the 3rd downs.

We do need to improve on 3rd downs - no doubt. However he wasn't getting help at all. 2 of the 3rd downs had penalities that extended the 3rd down. 3 he was sacked. That's 5/9 in which we ****ed ourselves. 5/9 3rd downs were 3rd and longs. Not good.

Colts were 4/12 today on 3rd downs.

Broncos were 3/9

33%.

Now rev, just hang it up bud. I think you should stop going to live games or else you'll soon react like this:

http://i36.tinypic.com/rk1vn4.gif

TheElusiveKyleOrton
09-12-2010, 10:27 PM
I'm not suggesting benching him. I'm saying it's unacceptable and Josh has to have him MUCH better prepared or we are in for the season cutthemdown has been predicting.

Lay off the crack.

What's the average completion percentage for QBs in the NFL on 3rd down? Just curious.

I'd say giving up 60 yards on two penalties was a bigger problem than Orton on third down. I'd say being unable to stop Garrard was a bigger problem, too.

****, I sort of think Lloyd being unable to keep his foot three inches from where it landed was a bigger deal since, you know, that would have been a touchdown and would have tied the game.

But sure. McDaniels needs to have him better prepared than throwing for almost 300 yards and getting some very close calls go against us. We should just ignore the defensive holds, the fumble that broke our back, and mcBean becoming a Raider for three plays in the third.

Orton's 3rd downs... that's what we need to fix.

Cito Pelon
09-12-2010, 10:27 PM
See the thread topic.

See the downs.

See the performance.

Why would we want to give this a rest? Why does anyone want to excuse a performance like that?

Orton was not a problem.

The MVPlaya
09-12-2010, 10:29 PM
I disagree. Seattle looked pretty sharp today so if we play like we did today, we'll get absolutely destroyed.

Regardless, the season is never over 2 games in. I'm looking forward to seeing how Josh and the team respond to some adversity after caving to it last season.

Again you didn't watch the game so stop looking at the box scores and calling them sharp.

The niners completely ****ed themselves over and Alex Smith sucks. Seattle wasn't doing **** at all... they couldn't run the ball for horse **** until the game was pretty much over.

Seattle's oline is horrible.

Niners gave them the game in a package signed by Mike Singletary.

Lev Vyvanse
09-12-2010, 10:30 PM
Colts were 4/12 today on 3rd downs.

They lost too.

The MVPlaya
09-12-2010, 10:31 PM
They lost too.

my point was, no one is doomed and this doesn't necessarily mean someone flat out sucks.

TheReverend
09-12-2010, 10:33 PM
Rev, I know you're not too great at watching games live, maybe your view sucked or something but our oline was playing like ass and Kampman was all up in Orton's ass (no homo) all day.

Everyday I get more confident that you're actually illiterate.

KevinJames
09-12-2010, 10:33 PM
I disagree. Seattle looked pretty sharp today so if we play like we did today, we'll get absolutely destroyed.

Regardless, the season is never over 2 games in. I'm looking forward to seeing how Josh and the team respond to some adversity after caving to it last season.

Seattle wasn't bad but they honestly didn't look all that great, SF looked horrible mainly Alex Smith you wanna talk about a QB that struggled wow

Alex Smith was 1 / 15 on third downs :spit:

Seattle only had 170 yds passing and their 3 RBs only managed 77 yards.

not to mention Seattle doesn't travel good at all one of the worst road teams in the NFL by far.

Lev Vyvanse
09-12-2010, 10:33 PM
my point was, no one is doomed and this doesn't necessarily mean someone flat out sucks.

Maybe you're not good at making a point. Because that was a bad one.

TheReverend
09-12-2010, 10:36 PM
Lay off the crack.

What's the average completion percentage for QBs in the NFL on 3rd down? Just curious.

I'd say giving up 60 yards on two penalties was a bigger problem than Orton on third down. I'd say being unable to stop Garrard was a bigger problem, too.

****, I sort of think Lloyd being unable to keep his foot three inches from where it landed was a bigger deal since, you know, that would have been a touchdown and would have tied the game.

But sure. McDaniels needs to have him better prepared than throwing for almost 300 yards and getting some very close calls go against us. We should just ignore the defensive holds, the fumble that broke our back, and mcBean becoming a Raider for three plays in the third.

Orton's 3rd downs... that's what we need to fix.

Good QBs are usually around 60% on 3rd. 25% is usually reserved for rookies and guys like Derek Anderson

And yes, I fully agree that our new, bigger, more physical defense was smacked around all day by a far less talented offense. I mentioned this in the other thread. I agree about every other point you made too until your final paragraph. But this is a thread specifically about Kyle Orton... and more specifically about his play on 3rd down. Did you miss that somehow?

The MVPlaya
09-12-2010, 10:36 PM
Everyday I get more confident that you're actually illiterate.

As you said... I read your post, made a comment and yet you quote the one thing that got your vagina in a knot.

Cito Pelon
09-12-2010, 10:36 PM
I'm not suggesting benching him. I'm saying it's unacceptable and Josh has to have him MUCH better prepared or we are in for the season cutthemdown has been predicting.

Good god, why anybody would go into the crying camp that cut has been preaching is beyond me. I guess that's what makes some of you feel good.

ro_50
09-12-2010, 10:36 PM
Does anyone know how Orton was on third downs last year?

TheReverend
09-12-2010, 10:38 PM
Orton was not a problem.

Would you go into some detail or try and support that in relation to the original post or....?

Seattle wasn't bad but they honestly didn't look all that great, SF looked horrible mainly Alex Smith you wanna talk about a QB that struggled wow

Alex Smith was 1 / 15 on third downs :spit:

Seattle only had 170 yds passing and their 3 RBs only managed 77 yards.

not to mention Seattle doesn't travel good at all one of the worst road teams in the NFL by far.

So Alex Smith struggled that badly, but Kyle only managed 1 more third down conversion than that so he was our bright spot?

I'm struggling to find any sense in this logic...

The MVPlaya
09-12-2010, 10:41 PM
Would you go into some detail or try and support that in relation to the original post or....?



So Alex Smith struggled that badly, but Kyle only managed 1 more third down conversion than that so he was our bright spot?

I'm struggling to find any sense in this logic...

I'm struggling to find why you are completely avoiding all other aspects of the game. Did you ****ing see what he said? 1/15. Kyle had 1 more in less attempts?

Are you trying to say Kyle Orton struggled just as much as Alex Smith or ALMOST as much?

TheReverend
09-12-2010, 10:43 PM
Does anyone know how Orton was on third downs last year?

I don't. But probably not good. Last year the team was 22nd in the league with an abysmal 36% conversion rate, down from 2008s #2 ranked 48%.

QBs usually outperform the team rating so I'd GUESS it was around 40-45%

KevinJames
09-12-2010, 10:44 PM
Would you go into some detail or try and support that in relation to the original post or....?



So Alex Smith struggled that badly, but Kyle only managed 1 more third down conversion than that so he was our bright spot?

I'm struggling to find any sense in this logic...

Maybe your struggling to watch the actual game if you go watch the SF game, Alex Smith was HORRIBLE. Orton was not, again its only week 1 Kyle wasn't sharp at all in week 1 last season and if it wasn't for that miracle play we would of lost that game too. First games are always tough Peyton Manning's team wasn't too hot on third down today either despite him throwing it 50+ times and putting up monster numbers.

its week 1, he didn't play bad and he didn't play great either, don't start calling for his head after 1 game.

like I said if we struggle against Seattle than worry because if we lose to that horrible squad @Invesco than you can consider us a bad team.....but I highly doubt that happens

TheReverend
09-12-2010, 10:44 PM
I'm struggling to find why you are completely avoiding all other aspects of the game. Did you ****ing see what he said? 1/15. Kyle had 1 more in less attempts?

Are you trying to say Kyle Orton struggled just as much as Alex Smith or ALMOST as much?

No...

I'm saying who cares about Alex Smith. Orton struggled and that's our concern. Not other teams in another conference that we don't play for 2 months.

Kaylore
09-12-2010, 10:46 PM
I appreciate your concern. Orton doesn't have a high ceiling, Rev. He's way better than he was last year and we can win with him now until Tebow is ready. He's really perfect as a veteran starter to lean on while Tebow develops. Just try and be patient. No, we're probably not winning the SB with Kyle Orton. He will get better as the line gets better and by next year we'll likely see Tebow play.

TheReverend
09-12-2010, 10:47 PM
Maybe your struggling to watch the actual game if you go watch the SF game, Alex Smith was HORRIBLE. Orton was not, again its only week 1 Kyle wasn't sharp at all in week 1 last season and if it wasn't for that miracle play we would of lost that game too.

its week 1, he didn't play bad and he didn't play great either, don't start calling for his head after 1 game.

like I said if we struggle against Seattle than worry because if we lose to that horrible squad @Invesco than you can consider us a bad team.....but I highly doubt that happens

I'm not suggesting benching him. I'm saying it's unacceptable and Josh has to have him MUCH better prepared or we are in for the season cutthemdown has been predicting.

Boy, I'm really calling for his head alright.

And we'll see. I wouldn't put too much stock into losing to Seattle if it happens. New NFL headcoaches (yes I'm aware Pete coached in the NFL in the 90s and early 2000s) are very hard to gameplan.

Cito Pelon
09-12-2010, 10:49 PM
Good QBs are usually around 60% on 3rd. 25% is usually reserved for rookies and guys like Derek Anderson

And yes, I fully agree that our new, bigger, more physical defense was smacked around all day by a far less talented offense. I mentioned this in the other thread. I agree about every other point you made too until your final paragraph. But this is a thread specifically about Kyle Orton... and more specifically about his play on 3rd down. Did you miss that somehow?

That's just ignorant. Give it a rest, mutt.

The MVPlaya
09-12-2010, 10:50 PM
No...

I'm saying who cares about Alex Smith. Orton struggled and that's our concern. Not other teams in another conference that we don't play for 2 months.

Not sure how you come down to "who cares" when you said

So Alex Smith struggled that badly, but Kyle only managed 1 more third down conversion than that so he was our bright spot?

I'm struggling to find any sense in this logic...

Any ways - Orton played well and moved the ball well, 3rd downs is 1 phase of the game. Orton had absolutely no time... he ran the 1 minute drill to perfection... those are bright spots. No one said Orton executed a perfect game, so I'm not sure why you're stuck on 1 phase of the game where we shot ourselves in the foot time after time.

Unless someone said he executed a perfect game, you'll always be able to find some fault.

He averaged 8.9 ypa... that's pretty damn good.

TheReverend
09-12-2010, 10:50 PM
I appreciate your concern. Orton doesn't have a high ceiling, Rev. He's way better than he was last year and we can win with him now until Tebow is ready. He's really perfect as a veteran starter to lean on while Tebow develops. Just try and be patient. No, we're probably not winning the SB with Kyle Orton. He will get better as the line gets better and by next year we'll likely see Tebow play.

I completely disagree with the bolded statement judging from what I saw tonight.

Week one last year he had these excuses:

Broken finger
First game and learning a new system
Against one of the best defenses in the NFL

What now? I mean... it's really cute that he can hang up almost 300 yards and made 4 or 5 legitimately great throws, but, sorry, if you can't move the chains then either you can't play or you were terribly prepared.

Kaylore
09-12-2010, 10:56 PM
Now you're just being obtuse. His accuracy, arm strength and confidence are light years ahead of last year. His yards per play are also up. Orton sucks on third down, and no amount of your threads bitching about this game are going to change that we lost or that he will stop sucking on third down. He has his whole career if you look at his splits. You're just gonna have to suck it up until Tebow or someone else displaces him, because he's it for now. Frankly we could do worse.

The MVPlaya
09-12-2010, 10:58 PM
Philip Rivers
Ben
Schaub
Warner
Romo
Tom Brady

Those are all QBs with under 60% completion on 3rd downs (Brady is exactly 60%). That's completion %, not CONVERSION, just COMPLETION...

So you little theory of "good" qbs convert 60% of the time... if good QBs convert 60% what do great/elite QBs complete? 100%?

TheReverend
09-12-2010, 11:00 PM
Now you're just being obtuse. His accuracy, arm strength and confidence are light years ahead of last year. His yards per play are also up. Orton sucks on third down, and no amount of your threads b****ing about this game are going to change that we lost or that he will stop sucking on third down. He has his whole career if you look at his splits. You're just gonna have to suck it up until Tebow or someone else displaces him, because he's it for now. Frankly we could do worse.

I'm sorry... so as you say he's improved in accuracy, arm strength and confidence and then make a blanket statement that he just sucks on 3rd down and can't improve despite "elevating his game"... that makes me obtuse?

TheReverend
09-12-2010, 11:01 PM
Philip Rivers
Ben
Schaub
Warner
Romo
Tom Brady

Those are all QBs with under 60% completion on 3rd downs (Brady is exactly 60%). That's completion %, not CONVERSION, just COMPLETION...

So you little theory of "good" qbs convert 60% of the time... if good QBs convert 60% what do great/elite QBs complete? 100%?

Yup, you are correct. I just looked that up to.

The MVPlaya
09-12-2010, 11:01 PM
I'm sorry... so as you say he's improved in accuracy, arm strength and confidence and then make a blanket statement that he just sucks on 3rd down and can't improve despite "elevating his game"... that makes me obtuse?

Do you realize you are focusing on only 1 element of the game? I'm starting to believe you're just as ignorant as jhns, go_broncos, watermock...etc

Cito Pelon
09-12-2010, 11:01 PM
No...

I'm saying who cares about Alex Smith. Orton struggled and that's our concern. Not other teams in another conference that we don't play for 2 months.

Orton did struggle to make some plays under pressure, yes.

The MVPlaya
09-12-2010, 11:01 PM
And let's not forget, this is 1 GAME... 1 ****ing game and you're calling it a representation of the whole season...

Archer81
09-12-2010, 11:02 PM
Orton played well enough to get the Broncos a win. Inconsistent line play, horrifically timed penalties and ridiculous kickoff returns did the team in. I am not entirely sure if you can blame Orton for the sacks, he had no time to throw.

:Broncos:

TheReverend
09-12-2010, 11:03 PM
Do you realize you are focusing on only 1 element of the game? I'm starting to believe you're just as ignorant as jhns, go_broncos, watermock...etc

Yeah... that's kinda what the thread title says.

And let's not forget, this is 1 GAME... 1 ****ing game and you're calling it a representation of the whole season...

Where did I say this?

You really do have serious reading issues don't you?

TheReverend
09-12-2010, 11:04 PM
Orton played well enough to get the Broncos a win. Inconsistent line play, horrifically timed penalties and ridiculous kickoff returns did the team in. I am not entirely sure if you can blame Orton for the sacks, he had no time to throw.

:Broncos:

I felt like two were his fault. If I get a chance to watch it tomorrow I may be able to confirm/debunk.

easymobee
09-12-2010, 11:04 PM
Reverend must be a lonely man on sundays. I can't imagine anyone would want to watch the game with him.

TheReverend
09-12-2010, 11:07 PM
Reverend must be a lonely man on sundays. I can't imagine anyone would want to watch the game with him.

Yup. That's absolutely the case. And great addition to the thread.

The MVPlaya
09-12-2010, 11:09 PM
Yeah... that's kinda what the thread title says.



Where did I say this?

You really do have serious reading issues don't you?

It's pretty clear you're implying it. It's quite obvious, if you're questioning my reading issues and avoiding all statistical inputs and quoting on parts of my post that are convient for you, yet avoiding the other parts that completely **** on your input on the Broncos... you're really not up to par in serious Broncos discussion unless it involves TT.

I mean, you're sitting here in doubt that he has elevated his game, and you're "calling for his head" after 1 game... so theoretically that usually means you think he'll play like this for the rest of the season... unless you're here just making serious knee jerk reactions thus showing us that you have real feminine characteristics.

Troy Aikman should be your favorite commentator, king of knee jerk reactions.

****in mutt.
LOL

The MVPlaya
09-12-2010, 11:11 PM
Suggestion for Rev:

http://questionabletopic.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/suicide.jpg

Gort
09-12-2010, 11:15 PM
Steps to follow:
1. See the original post in this thread.

2. Read it.

3. Make a comment on it.

4. If you think 25% on 3rd down (along with 2 penalties on him on 3rd down) is the "LEAST of our problems" then I suggest you watch it again.

good luck. that's not the "new" OM way. the new way is.

1. See thread
2. Guess what thread is about
3. Post whatever you want regardless of what the thread is about or the facts. Bonus points for insulting the thread starter.

;)

i'm not getting on either side of your argument. just pointing out that this is what this site is becoming, as i've seen on a thread i posted today. my sin? i guess my title's meaning wasn't what i intended.

since this site is for entertainment, it's ultimately not a big deal. just shrug and smile at the people who have no clue what they are talking about, but still have the gall to post and tell you that you have no clue what you're talking about.

Archer81
09-12-2010, 11:15 PM
I love the fact orton attempted deeper passes and completed a solid number of them. I liked the fact that he found Royal and Lloyd consistently, and managed to move around in the pocket and actually scramble some to pick up yards. I'm not sure why so many of his passes get batted into the air or down...dude is 6'4 isnt he?, that should not happen more than twice in a game. The line needs to gel. Two rookies on the line is going to be hard, and rotating in Clady and Batiste makes me uncomfortable. If it was done for the heat and helping the stamina of Clady, fine. If it was done because of Clady's knee, then he should not be playing until he can go full time.

:Broncos:

Archer81
09-12-2010, 11:16 PM
Suggestion for Rev:

http://questionabletopic.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/suicide.jpg


Inappropriate man.

:Broncos:

Cito Pelon
09-12-2010, 11:22 PM
Would you go into some detail or try and support that in relation to the original post or....?
...

Orton played a good game, why you want to bag on Orton is beyond my comprehension.

The MVPlaya
09-12-2010, 11:24 PM
Inappropriate man.

:Broncos:

oreally, but the thread "Necessary tool for some of our posters" is cool.
:spit:

The MVPlaya
09-12-2010, 11:24 PM
Orton played a good game, why you want to bag on Orton is beyond my comprehension.

Because Tim Tebow is holding his clip board, that's why.

Archer81
09-12-2010, 11:26 PM
oreally, but the thread "Necessary tool for some of our posters" is cool.
:spit:


Yes. It totally is. A razorblade is completely ok.

:Broncos:

TheElusiveKyleOrton
09-12-2010, 11:31 PM
Good QBs are usually around 60% on 3rd. 25% is usually reserved for rookies and guys like Derek Anderson

And yes, I fully agree that our new, bigger, more physical defense was smacked around all day by a far less talented offense. I mentioned this in the other thread. I agree about every other point you made too until your final paragraph. But this is a thread specifically about Kyle Orton... and more specifically about his play on 3rd down. Did you miss that somehow?

Did you miss your own words where you claimed that Kyle Orton was the biggest problem this team has?

Would you say hyperbole is something you engage in compulsively? Or do you really just need a shoulder to cry on?

TheReverend
09-12-2010, 11:32 PM
I love the fact orton attempted deeper passes and completed a solid number of them. I liked the fact that he found Royal and Lloyd consistently, and managed to move around in the pocket and actually scramble some to pick up yards.

Fully agree. These were the brightspots of the game. He had some really good throws to them. Royal was also consistently getting open, so I'm looking forward to a little resurgence from him and helping Kyle out with a bigger window.

I'm not sure why so many of his passes get batted into the air or down...dude is 6'4 isnt he?, that should not happen more than twice in a game. The line needs to gel. Two rookies on the line is going to be hard, and rotating in Clady and Batiste makes me uncomfortable. If it was done for the heat and helping the stamina of Clady, fine. If it was done because of Clady's knee, then he should not be playing until he can go full time.

:Broncos:

Part of that is blocking. Every DL is trying to get his hands up after three seconds if they can't get to the QB. It's the QBs responsibility to find an open passing lane though, and that does seem to be one of Kyle's deficiencies.

I also didn't like rotating Clady. If he needed it for health reasons, sure. Otherwise, we need him getting all those live action reps to knock that rust off, so I agree with you 100% on that point too.

I think the most frustrating part of this is I really think Josh did a **** job preparing him. We've seen Kyle's ceiling. Remember the NE game last year? Orton played at a borderline all pro level. I'd like to see Josh put the effort into preparing his team and play calling that he did that week into every week. He genuinely seemed outclassed by the Jax coaches and we looked extremely unprepared in almost every situation where we needed to execute.

TheReverend
09-12-2010, 11:32 PM
Did you miss your own words where you claimed that Kyle Orton was the biggest problem this team has?

Would you say hyperbole is something you engage in compulsively? Or do you really just need a shoulder to cry on?

Uh, yeah, I DEFINITELY missed that. Where is that?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
09-12-2010, 11:35 PM
Steps to follow:
1. See the original post in this thread.

2. Read it.

3. Make a comment on it.

4. If you think 25% on 3rd down (along with 2 penalties on him on 3rd down) is the "LEAST of our problems" then I suggest you watch it again.

Sure seems like you're insinuating that Kyle Orton is among the biggest problems here... because of third downs... ignoring all the other good he did today, especially the near-misses on the sideline and in the end zone.

But what am I saying? How can you have a "LOOK AT ME!!" thread without making absurd arguments?

TheReverend
09-12-2010, 11:35 PM
Suggestion for Rev:

http://questionabletopic.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/suicide.jpg

Cute. Since we're going with that maturity level and posting pictures... I found a picture of you. Lookin ripped bro.

http://nazret.com/blog/media/blogs/new/_44721131_ethiopia1_226b.jpg

TheReverend
09-12-2010, 11:37 PM
Sure seems like you're insinuating that Kyle Orton is among the biggest problems here... because of third downs... ignoring all the other good he did today, especially the near-misses on the sideline and in the end zone.

But what am I saying? How can you have a "LOOK AT ME!!" thread without making absurd arguments?

Ah, okay, so I know I'm "insinuating" it instead of "in my words". Gotcha.

And how is this a "look at me" thread when it has a very specific title with every example laid out along with the conclusion?

If you don't want to discuss the topic, by all means, the door to 10,000 other threads is over there.

Cito Pelon
09-12-2010, 11:42 PM
Ah, okay, so I know I'm "insinuating" it instead of "in my words". Gotcha.

And how is this a "look at me" thread when it has a very specific title with every example laid out along with the conclusion?

If you don't want to discuss the topic, by all means, the door to 10,000 other threads is over there.

Rev, there is no quit in you arguing about the Broncos, but there is some quit in you about the Broncos.

TheReverend
09-12-2010, 11:45 PM
Rev, there is no quit in you arguing about the Broncos, but there is some quit in you about the Broncos.

One example.

Requiem
09-12-2010, 11:46 PM
Rev,

Care to elaborate on the pass protection (judging the adequacy) for each of the third down scenarios?

TheReverend
09-12-2010, 11:49 PM
Rev,

Care to elaborate on the pass protection (judging the adequacy) for each of the third down scenarios?

See this post:

I felt like two were his fault. If I get a chance to watch it tomorrow I may be able to confirm/debunk.

Al Wilson
09-12-2010, 11:58 PM
Rev, relax bro, it is only week 1. Our O-Line is struggling, but there were 2 rookies starting, and Harris was out, and Clady is still injured. It was tough to watch, but they will only get better next time. Still a long season, and Kyle looks a lot better than last year.

DBroncos4life
09-13-2010, 01:52 AM
Seattle wasn't bad but they honestly didn't look all that great, SF looked horrible mainly Alex Smith you wanna talk about a QB that struggled wow

Alex Smith was 1 / 15 on third downs :spit:

Seattle only had 170 yds passing and their 3 RBs only managed 77 yards.

not to mention Seattle doesn't travel good at all one of the worst road teams in the NFL by far.

I missed the part where people thought alex smith was ever thought as a good qb in te nfl

fontaine
09-13-2010, 04:51 AM
We're going to struggle on third downs because

- our OL is still raw and inexperienced at key positions
- we are less than nothing at TE
- we don't have a reliable running game
- we don't have a constant reliable mismatch on third downs like Marshall last year
- and yes, Orton is limited.

Blaming Orton though is hardly the point when there are so many other problems.

Put it simply, we're a finesse offense. We can't ram it down defenses, or load up with big TEs and beat up teams in the seam or across the middle.

So love it or hate it, that leaves our offense with trying to flood the secondary with Royal/Gaff/Decker/Lloyd and put it on Orton's arm.

Rock Chalk
09-13-2010, 05:35 AM
Okay, so after my blow up thread, everyone wanted to pin point my criticism of Kyle Orton's play today and ignore the rest of the facts. Anyways, during the Redskins I was starting to wonder if maybe I was seeing it wrong. Naturally I realized that wasn't likely so I pulled the game stats up.

Here's Kyle on 3rd down out of EIGHT 3rd down drop backs:

2 completions for 20 yards
2 first downs out of 8 for a whopping 25% conversion rate
3 sacks for 21 yards
1 run for 5 yards
2 delay of game penalties
4 yards of offense gained in 8 3rd downs for 0.5 ypp

That's not embarrassing to you? If you're satisfied with that and consider play like that "the bright spot" then you should be ashamed of yourself as a Bronco fan, in my opinion.

3-11 sacked for -8 yards
3-3 incomplete short mid
3-8 short mid to royal for 11 yards
3-10 sacked for -6 yards
3-7 sacked for -7 yards
3-4 runs for 5 yards
3-15 short left to Royal for 9 yards
3-3 incomplete short right to lloyd

And a fourth down for good measure:
4-3 incomplete short right to lloyd

3-11 Sacked for -8 yards. This was a first down on a 3rd and 1 that got called back on Holding call. League wide, 3 and 10+ has less than a 10% completion percentage.

3-10 Sacked for -6 yards. Again a 3rd and long and obvious passing play. Orton's only option would be to throw it short here and Jax was in press man coverage on the play. The sack was not a coverage sack but a blitz sack.

3-7 Sacked for -7 yards. Once again the team is in a hole here and well behind the sticks. 3rd and 7 is provably about a 30% completion percentage league wide. Its an obvious passing play and Jax brought a blitz after playing press coverage.

3-15, short to Royal for 9 yards. This is a designed play. A penalty put us back in a hole here and out of FG range so the play was not designed to get a first down but rather just get us back into FG range to tie the game.

The two 3rd and 3s I dont specifically recall so I cant really give comment on but on 4 of your 3rd downs you expect Orton to make miracles on very low success plays.

Even the great Peyton Manning was only 4-12 on 3rd down failing on a 3rd and 1, a 3rd and 4, 3rd and 13, 3rd and 2, 3rd and 2, 3rd and 15.

gyldenlove
09-13-2010, 06:25 AM
3-11 Sacked for -8 yards. This was a first down on a 3rd and 1 that got called back on Holding call. League wide, 3 and 10+ has less than a 10% completion percentage.

3-10 Sacked for -6 yards. Again a 3rd and long and obvious passing play. Orton's only option would be to throw it short here and Jax was in press man coverage on the play. The sack was not a coverage sack but a blitz sack.

3-7 Sacked for -7 yards. Once again the team is in a hole here and well behind the sticks. 3rd and 7 is provably about a 30% completion percentage league wide. Its an obvious passing play and Jax brought a blitz after playing press coverage.

3-15, short to Royal for 9 yards. This is a designed play. A penalty put us back in a hole here and out of FG range so the play was not designed to get a first down but rather just get us back into FG range to tie the game.

The two 3rd and 3s I dont specifically recall so I cant really give comment on but on 4 of your 3rd downs you expect Orton to make miracles on very low success plays.

Even the great Peyton Manning was only 4-12 on 3rd down failing on a 3rd and 1, a 3rd and 4, 3rd and 13, 3rd and 2, 3rd and 2, 3rd and 15.

Considering last year we had the best 3rd and 10+ defense and we allowed 9.8% the league wide 10% is wrong, Jacksonville last year had the number 1 3rd and 10+ offense and clicked at 25% in that situation.

The first sack was inexcusable, it took us out of field goal range and I wonder if anyone remembers back to week 1 last year WHEN THE EXACT SAME THING HAPPENED! Except this year we didn't have Marshall and Stokley to bail us out.

Actually it was rush 4 on the 2nd sack, Shane Daniels tried to double team the rusher with Clady but for some reason gave up half way through and the rush got to Orton with Daniels watching the whole thing.

ColoradoDarin
09-13-2010, 06:59 AM
Orton played well enough to get the Broncos a win. Inconsistent line play, horrifically timed penalties and ridiculous kickoff returns did the team in. I am not entirely sure if you can blame Orton for the sacks, he had no time to throw.

:Broncos:

This.

I blame Orton for a few plays, especially the sack on 3rd down after the holding penalty when Knowshon picked up the first - he had time to get rid of it. That took 3 points off the board right there (add that to Buck's fumble in FG range and we'd would have been kicking for the win at the end).

Orton didn't have a perfect game, but he wasn't the problem yesterday.

TheReverend
09-13-2010, 07:27 AM
This.

I blame Orton for a few plays, especially the sack on 3rd down after the holding penalty when Knowshon picked up the first - he had time to get rid of it. That took 3 points off the board right there (add that to Buck's fumble in FG range and we'd would have been kicking for the win at the end).

Orton didn't have a perfect game, but he wasn't the problem yesterday.

I think we can all agree the 2nd half play of the defense was the #1 problem, but there was no "the problem". There were problems. And this was absolutely one of them. So I agree that he wasn't "the problem", but he sure as hell wasn't the solution either.

jhns
09-13-2010, 07:31 AM
Okay, so after my blow up thread, everyone wanted to pin point my criticism of Kyle Orton's play today and ignore the rest of the facts. Anyways, during the Redskins I was starting to wonder if maybe I was seeing it wrong. Naturally I realized that wasn't likely so I pulled the game stats up.

Here's Kyle on 3rd down out of EIGHT 3rd down drop backs:

2 completions for 20 yards
2 first downs out of 8 for a whopping 25% conversion rate
3 sacks for 21 yards
1 run for 5 yards
2 delay of game penalties
4 yards of offense gained in 8 3rd downs for 0.5 ypp

That's not embarrassing to you? If you're satisfied with that and consider play like that "the bright spot" then you should be ashamed of yourself as a Bronco fan, in my opinion.

3-11 sacked for -8 yards
3-3 incomplete short mid
3-8 short mid to royal for 11 yards
3-10 sacked for -6 yards
3-7 sacked for -7 yards
3-4 runs for 5 yards
3-15 short left to Royal for 9 yards
3-3 incomplete short right to lloyd

And a fourth down for good measure:
4-3 incomplete short right to lloyd

This is why this offense sucked last season. They can't convert 3rd downs. McDaniels better figure something out or it is going to be pretty hard to improve on last seasons record.

On top of this, he also threw a pick and had multiple other passes land right in the hands of defenders. I thought he was all about ball security and making the smart throws?

oubronco
09-13-2010, 07:35 AM
Although I think Orton is better than last year the same problem came up as last year, when he's pressured and needs to make a play he fails and I personally don't think Tebow is the answer either

ColoradoDarin
09-13-2010, 07:51 AM
I think we can all agree the 2nd half play of the defense was the #1 problem, but there was no "the problem". There were problems. And this was absolutely one of them. So I agree that he wasn't "the problem", but he sure as hell wasn't the solution either.

Even with holding all else the same, we get a FG on that drive, one of the drive where Buck fumbled and at the end we're driving to set up the winning FG, being down 1 point then instead of 7.

Change just those 2 plays (Orton's sack and Buck's fumble) and we probably win. There are plenty of areas to improve, but it was the opener, on the road, we need to kick the snot out of the Seahags next week at home. I think we'll know more after that game.

txtebow
09-13-2010, 08:19 AM
Orton's immobility coupled with our inexperienced OL,coupled with our lack of players who can create quick separation on the outside will make consistent 3rd down conversions a novelty act this season. Orton seems to take more sacks on 3rd down than an above average starting caliber QB would as well.

I began the McDaniels era as an Orton hater, but I do feel that he can be a functionally servicable QB if given a better OL and better weapons on the outside. Hopefully, Decker and Thomas can develop into those type of weapons.

Seattle looks to have a smallish, bend but don't break style on defense that relies on creating turnovers. Hopefully, Knowshon and our running game can have success on early downs so we don't play into Seattle's strengths this week because 0-2 will turn into 0-4 VERY quickly with our schedule (INDY then @ TEN)

Dagmar
09-13-2010, 09:40 AM
http://i56.tinypic.com/24yntk2.png

Spider
09-13-2010, 09:44 AM
Okay, so after my blow up thread, everyone wanted to pin point my criticism of Kyle Orton's play today and ignore the rest of the facts. Anyways, during the Redskins I was starting to wonder if maybe I was seeing it wrong. Naturally I realized that wasn't likely so I pulled the game stats up.

Here's Kyle on 3rd down out of EIGHT 3rd down drop backs:

2 completions for 20 yards
2 first downs out of 8 for a whopping 25% conversion rate
3 sacks for 21 yards
1 run for 5 yards
2 delay of game penalties
4 yards of offense gained in 8 3rd downs for 0.5 ypp

That's not embarrassing to you? If you're satisfied with that and consider play like that "the bright spot" then you should be ashamed of yourself as a Bronco fan, in my opinion.

3-11 sacked for -8 yards
3-3 incomplete short mid
3-8 short mid to royal for 11 yards
3-10 sacked for -6 yards
3-7 sacked for -7 yards
3-4 runs for 5 yards
3-15 short left to Royal for 9 yards
3-3 incomplete short right to lloyd

And a fourth down for good measure:
4-3 incomplete short right to lloyd

I bet you got the local beauty shop phone # listed as an emergency # ......
only an idiot would post such drivel ...... A real fan would ask why was we running zone beating routes in Man coverage ? ....... Meh never mind no sense in trying to fix stupid

TheReverend
09-13-2010, 09:59 AM
http://i56.tinypic.com/24yntk2.png

Yup. You can't get an incompletion on your back.

Eldorado
09-13-2010, 10:01 AM
I bet you got the local beauty shop phone # listed as an emergency # ......
only an idiot would post such drivel ...... A real fan would ask why was we running zone beating routes in Man coverage ? ....... Meh never mind no sense in trying to fix stupid


Yeah, why was we?

Spider
09-13-2010, 10:23 AM
Yeah, why was we?

I have no Idea , I dont understand why we didnt handle the double A gap blitz either , we just didnt adjust ......

Merlin
09-13-2010, 10:23 AM
I disagree. Seattle looked pretty sharp today so if we play like we did today, we'll get absolutely destroyed.
They did look good...and if we lose we could potentially start 0-6...the irony.

HAT
09-13-2010, 10:30 AM
Anyone who thinks Seattle "looked sharp" yesterday obviously didn't see the game. I watched almost the whole thing & they were anything but sharp.

McDman
09-13-2010, 10:34 AM
Orton's immobility coupled with our inexperienced OL,coupled with our lack of players who can create quick separation on the outside will make consistent 3rd down conversions a novelty act this season. Orton seems to take more sacks on 3rd down than an above average starting caliber QB would as well.

I began the McDaniels era as an Orton hater, but I do feel that he can be a functionally servicable QB if given a better OL and better weapons on the outside. Hopefully, Decker and Thomas can develop into those type of weapons.

Seattle looks to have a smallish, bend but don't break style on defense that relies on creating turnovers. Hopefully, Knowshon and our running game can have success on early downs so we don't play into Seattle's strengths this week because 0-2 will turn into 0-4 VERY quickly with our schedule (INDY then @ TEN)

Immobility?! IMMOBILITY?!

Didn't you hear the announcers yesterday? They called him "the elusive Orton"! He's clearly not immibile!

go_broncos
09-13-2010, 10:35 AM
Anyone who thinks Seattle "looked sharp" yesterday obviously didn't see the game. I watched almost the whole thing & they were anything but sharp.

You are talking as if we are talented team(2 games won out of 11)..

LRtagger
09-13-2010, 10:35 AM
I think another key stat to also consider is that we only had ONE 3 and out all game.

While Orton may have been subpar on some 3rd down plays, if you look at the game as a whole he played well.

Dagmar
09-13-2010, 10:36 AM
They did look good...and if we lose we could potentially start 0-6...the irony.

Please point out the ironic nature. Please, I cannot wait.

Spider
09-13-2010, 10:36 AM
Orton's immobility coupled with our inexperienced OL,coupled with our lack of players who can create quick separation on the outside will make consistent 3rd down conversions a novelty act this season. Orton seems to take more sacks on 3rd down than an above average starting caliber QB would as well.

I began the McDaniels era as an Orton hater, but I do feel that he can be a functionally servicable QB if given a better OL and better weapons on the outside. Hopefully, Decker and Thomas can develop into those type of weapons.

Seattle looks to have a smallish, bend but don't break style on defense that relies on creating turnovers. Hopefully, Knowshon and our running game can have success on early downs so we don't play into Seattle's strengths this week because 0-2 will turn into 0-4 VERY quickly with our schedule (INDY then @ TEN)

let me help you out here , go to Rent to own , get a nice TV , then call up Direct TV , get the NFL package , and watch a game ........... really cool stuff

LRtagger
09-13-2010, 10:38 AM
You are talking as if we are talented team(2 games won out of 11)..

And the Colts are 2-4 in their last 6 games. :welcome:

Spider
09-13-2010, 10:40 AM
You are talking as if we are talented team(2 games won out of 11)..

:clown:

Archer81
09-13-2010, 11:05 AM
You are talking as if we are talented team(2 games won out of 11)..


Im sorry, did the Broncos just get spotted 6-0 before the rest of the season kicked in? Josh is 8-9 as HC. Not 2-9. If you cannot do math or realize the ENTIRE season matters and not sections, then heaven help you. Or are you one of the tards who believes the Titans = SB contenders because they are 9-2 in their last 11?

ESPN is ruining America. I swear to God. MTV for sports...


:Broncos:

Spider
09-13-2010, 11:07 AM
Im sorry, did the Broncos just get spotted 6-0 before the rest of the season kicked in? Josh is 8-9 as HC. Not 2-9. If you cannot do math or realize the ENTIRE season matters and not sections, then heaven help you. Or are you one of the tards who believes the Titans = SB contenders because they are 9-2 in their last 11?

ESPN is ruining America. I swear to God. MTV for sports...


:Broncos:
;D politics have taught me one thing ........ Cant fix stupid ...... this go broncos cant be fixed ...... ;D

montrose
09-13-2010, 11:14 AM
I just finished watching the game and I have to agree with Rev (maybe not as over-the-top, lol) but I wasn't terribly impressed with Orton's play. One point I haven't seen discussed yet is that he totally bi*ch slid early on a 2nd down play when he could've gotten at least another yard or two before sliding or even had a chance at the 1st down if he dove. We didn't convert the 3rd down and I kept thinking to myself, "man, Tebow would've gotten that the play before." lol

There were a few plays to be made down the field but I agree with Rev that I just don't think Kyle has the confidence to consistently go down the field even though the few times we did we easily moved the ball and scored. I don't think Orton lost the game but I do think if he played as well as did in the preseason and camp we would've won easily. The delay of game penalties (which could be on the coaches for getting the play in late) were a killer and the inability to convert 3rd downs doomed us. Our WR corps is really good and they were destroying the Jacksonville secondary, I'm really dissapointed we didn't take further advantage of it because Lloyd, Eddie and Jabar had their way - imagine if Bay Bay was healthy too. I really like our WR group.

And on a completely unrelated note, does anyone else miss Sam Brandon. Tight Ends have destroyed us for years and I expect that trend will continue all year long. Woodyard, Hill and Haggan got owned by Lewis. Maybe McBath gets a try?

bowtown
09-13-2010, 11:15 AM
Please point out the ironic nature. Please, I cannot wait.

He's probably a big Polumbus fan.

Spider
09-13-2010, 11:19 AM
I just finished watching the game and I have to agree with Rev (maybe not as over-the-top, lol) but I wasn't terribly impressed with Orton's play. One point I haven't seen discussed yet is that he totally bi*ch slid early on a 2nd down play when he could've gotten at least another yard or two before sliding or even had a chance at the 1st down if he dove. We didn't convert the 3rd down and I kept thinking to myself, "man, Tebow would've gotten that the play before." lol

There were a few plays to be made down the field but I agree with Rev that I just don't think Kyle has the confidence to consistently go down the field even though the few times we did we easily moved the ball and scored. I don't think Orton lost the game but I do think if he played as well as did in the preseason and camp we would've won easily. The delay of game penalties (which could be on the coaches for getting the play in late) were a killer and the inability to convert 3rd downs doomed us. Our WR corps is really good and they were destroying the Jacksonville secondary, I'm really dissapointed we didn't take further advantage of it because Lloyd, Eddie and Jabar had their way - imagine if Bay Bay was healthy too.

And on a completely unrelated note, does anyone else miss Sam Brandon. Tight Ends have destroyed us for years and I expect that trend will continue all year long. Woodyard, Hill and Haggan got owned by Lewis. Maybe McBath gets a try?
Nice .. so what did you think of the zone beating routes we was running against man coverage ..Not sure but the jagoffs pulled the double a gap blitzs back to back what 2 or 3 times in the second half alone ?

fontaine
09-13-2010, 12:44 PM
Not sure but the jagoffs pulled the double a gap blitzs back to back what 2 or 3 times in the second half alone ?

Why wouldn't you when you've got an inexperience combo in the middle. Team's will be pulling that on us all season until the interior shores up.

Spider
09-13-2010, 12:51 PM
Why wouldn't you when you've got an inexperience combo in the middle. Team's will be pulling that on us all season until the interior shores up. Hell I would have to , but I am just wondering why we didnt adjust with a back ......

fontaine
09-13-2010, 01:01 PM
Hell I would have to , but I am just wondering why we didnt adjust with a back ......

Now you're thinking! :wave:

We did, we started going two back formation in the 4th quarter.

On the 4th down 3 play one of the backs was at home blocking a blitzer and then on the next drive also.

Spider
09-13-2010, 01:26 PM
Now you're thinking! :wave:

We did, we started going two back formation in the 4th quarter.

On the 4th down 3 play one of the backs was at home blocking a blitzer and then on the next drive also.go back and reread the post , and get the over all gist of what I said and why , you will see I was thinking along time ago ....... I just think the game plan was poor , lack of adjusting , and to blame that on Orton is just way off the reservation ....... Adjusting to that blitz in the 4 th quarter when you been seeing it all along is a tad bit late wouldnt you agree ?

Spider
09-13-2010, 01:29 PM
not to be impressed with ortons play when you dont know what was being played ? ... i was thinking , when the Jagoffs dropped into Man , it would have been nice to have Hillis ... Pounder and soft hands out of the backfield ......

fontaine
09-13-2010, 01:38 PM
go back and reread the post , and get the over all gist of what I said and why , you will see I was thinking along time ago ....... I just think the game plan was poor , lack of adjusting , and to blame that on Orton is just way off the reservation ....... Adjusting to that blitz in the 4 th quarter when you been seeing it all along is a tad bit late wouldnt you agree ?


Hey you won't get an argument from me there. Orton was asked to do too much without the benefit of great pass protection and a consistent run game.

Most QBs in the league need help from the rest of the team and Orton is no different. The improvement is definitely there and he made two very good throws out there - the long ball to Lloyd and another intermediate pass in the 2nd half when he was absolutely drilled by a free blitzer right as he released the ball.

Asking him to throw the ball more than 30 times a game without a decent run game isn't going to win you too many football games.

Florida_Bronco
09-13-2010, 02:12 PM
What section were you sitting in Rev?

Spider
09-13-2010, 02:16 PM
Hey you won't get an argument from me there. Orton was asked to do too much without the benefit of great pass protection and a consistent run game.

Most QBs in the league need help from the rest of the team and Orton is no different. The improvement is definitely there and he made two very good throws out there - the long ball to Lloyd and another intermediate pass in the 2nd half when he was absolutely drilled by a free blitzer right as he released the ball.

Asking him to throw the ball more than 30 times a game without a decent run game isn't going to win you too many football games.

agreed ... ;D

Beantown Bronco
09-13-2010, 02:22 PM
What section were you sitting in Rev?

Here's some footage I got of Rev before the game and on his way to the stadium. Should explain some things....

<object style="height: 344px; width: 425px"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VuCFgiWfVF4?version=3"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VuCFgiWfVF4?version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></object>

montrose
09-13-2010, 02:42 PM
Nice .. so what did you think of the zone beating routes we was running against man coverage ..Not sure but the jagoffs pulled the double a gap blitzs back to back what 2 or 3 times in the second half alone ?

Obviously you can only see so much with wide-angle TV shot but from what I could see there were plays to BLloyd and Jab down the field during those instances if Kyle had thrown the ball up.

NYBronco
09-13-2010, 02:43 PM
Okay, so after my blow up thread, everyone wanted to pin point my criticism of Kyle Orton's play today and ignore the rest of the facts. Anyways, during the Redskins I was starting to wonder if maybe I was seeing it wrong. Naturally I realized that wasn't likely so I pulled the game stats up.

Here's Kyle on 3rd down out of EIGHT 3rd down drop backs:

2 completions for 20 yards
2 first downs out of 8 for a whopping 25% conversion rate
3 sacks for 21 yards
1 run for 5 yards
2 delay of game penalties
4 yards of offense gained in 8 3rd downs for 0.5 ypp

That's not embarrassing to you? If you're satisfied with that and consider play like that "the bright spot" then you should be ashamed of yourself as a Bronco fan, in my opinion.

3-11 sacked for -8 yards
3-3 incomplete short mid
3-8 short mid to royal for 11 yards
3-10 sacked for -6 yards
3-7 sacked for -7 yards
3-4 runs for 5 yards
3-15 short left to Royal for 9 yards
3-3 incomplete short right to lloyd

And a fourth down for good measure:
4-3 incomplete short right to lloyd


This was an odd play as it looked like Royal could have made the first down but for some reason he seemed to go to the turf on his own.

Could you do a follow up of our ST coverage on the fourth down punts?

TheReverend
09-13-2010, 02:49 PM
I just finished watching the game and I have to agree with Rev (maybe not as over-the-top, lol) but I wasn't terribly impressed with Orton's play. One point I haven't seen discussed yet is that he totally bi*ch slid early on a 2nd down play when he could've gotten at least another yard or two before sliding or even had a chance at the 1st down if he dove. We didn't convert the 3rd down and I kept thinking to myself, "man, Tebow would've gotten that the play before." lol

There were a few plays to be made down the field but I agree with Rev that I just don't think Kyle has the confidence to consistently go down the field even though the few times we did we easily moved the ball and scored. I don't think Orton lost the game but I do think if he played as well as did in the preseason and camp we would've won easily. The delay of game penalties (which could be on the coaches for getting the play in late) were a killer and the inability to convert 3rd downs doomed us. Our WR corps is really good and they were destroying the Jacksonville secondary, I'm really dissapointed we didn't take further advantage of it because Lloyd, Eddie and Jabar had their way - imagine if Bay Bay was healthy too. I really like our WR group.

And on a completely unrelated note, does anyone else miss Sam Brandon. Tight Ends have destroyed us for years and I expect that trend will continue all year long. Woodyard, Hill and Haggan got owned by Lewis. Maybe McBath gets a try?

110% from the first to final word (though McBath was out wasn't he? I think they would've tried using him in that area if he were available. Did they have him cover TEs in man in TC at all?). Maybe it's just being spoiled by seeing Orton play at his ceiling and be truly prepared like he did vs NE, but I'm certainly not accepting the product on the field on Sunday as a "bright spot".

What section were you sitting in Rev?

109. Lower level 60 yard line.

Beantown Bronco
09-13-2010, 02:52 PM
109. Lower level 60 yard line.

Damn. Big field down there in Jacksonville. No wonder they have trouble selling it out.

TheReverend
09-13-2010, 02:56 PM
Damn. Big field down there in Jacksonville. No wonder they have trouble selling it out.

Ha! you know what I meant

orange skier
09-13-2010, 02:56 PM
Obviously you can only see so much with wide-angle TV shot but from what I could see there were plays to BLloyd and Jab down the field during those instances if Kyle had thrown the ball up.

Orton's last pick........Gaffney was wide open on the left side line, and I mean wide open........no one around him for 10 to 15 yards......Orton chose to try to toss it into four man coverage, resulting in the pick.....Orton is looking down the field more, but...he still can't "see" the field......we're one game closer to Tebow Time........

Beantown Bronco
09-13-2010, 03:01 PM
Orton's last pick........Gaffney was wide open on the left side line, and I mean wide open........no one around him for 10 to 15 yards......Orton chose to try to toss it into four man coverage, resulting in the pick.....Orton is looking down the field more, but...he still can't "see" the field......we're one game closer to Tebow Time........

Watch it again and follow the deep safety #37. He's standing and shading just outside the numbers around 10-15 yds deeper than Gaff, but Gaff is running right towards him. Any throw in that direction would've had the same result if he tried to hit him in stride. If Gaff had stopped on a dime and come back.....maybe. But he didn't.

Mountain Bronco
09-13-2010, 03:02 PM
Orton had a 90 QB rating, 300 yards passing, and even ran for a first down or two. His INT came when he was in a pass-only hole with a minute left in the game.

He was the LEAST of our problems today.


For a guy who touts himself as having an elite football education, you should understand that a team with no offensive line has no balance... and hence ANY QB in that system is going to run into problems.


You're the only person outside of BPC on this forum who will be pushing this agenda, dude. The rest of us were pretty happy with Orton's play today.


Not happy unless we win PERIOD He didn't make the plays that needed to be made to put points on the board ie convert third downs, not take costly sacks. If you have a great running game and a great D, his game would have been a perfect compliment, problem is we have neither of the other two ingredients, which again isn't his fault, and asking him to be a great QB and win on his shoulders is too much.

Just tired of the mediocracy for the past decade and I don't see any young stars on the roster (besides Dummerville and he ain't getting any younger and loses and entire season and Clady) to make that change in the next couple of years.

LRtagger
09-13-2010, 03:08 PM
I just finished watching the game and I have to agree with Rev (maybe not as over-the-top, lol) but I wasn't terribly impressed with Orton's play. One point I haven't seen discussed yet is that he totally bi*ch slid early on a 2nd down play when he could've gotten at least another yard or two before sliding or even had a chance at the 1st down if he dove. We didn't convert the 3rd down and I kept thinking to myself, "man, Tebow would've gotten that the play before." lol

There were a few plays to be made down the field but I agree with Rev that I just don't think Kyle has the confidence to consistently go down the field even though the few times we did we easily moved the ball and scored. I don't think Orton lost the game but I do think if he played as well as did in the preseason and camp we would've won easily. The delay of game penalties (which could be on the coaches for getting the play in late) were a killer and the inability to convert 3rd downs doomed us. Our WR corps is really good and they were destroying the Jacksonville secondary, I'm really dissapointed we didn't take further advantage of it because Lloyd, Eddie and Jabar had their way - imagine if Bay Bay was healthy too. I really like our WR group.

And on a completely unrelated note, does anyone else miss Sam Brandon. Tight Ends have destroyed us for years and I expect that trend will continue all year long. Woodyard, Hill and Haggan got owned by Lewis. Maybe McBath gets a try?


Not to nitpick, but I don't remember Woodyard getting beat by their TE. The first TD he beat Haggan on a crossing route and Goodman couldnt get off his block. The second TE he beat Hill over the top and then outjumped him.

I don't even remember seeing Woodyard on the field except on ST. I remember thinking to myself "OK Woodyard isnt great in coverage, but we need to try him on this guy because this **** isnt working".


I will say that I agree about the WRs, but disagree on Orton. He could have played better on some of those 3rd downs, but I'll point out again that we only had ONE 3 and out all game. And that is really without much of a running game and pretty terrible field position.

Obviously we need to improve on 3rd down, but I think it was more of reading and picking up the blitz and cutting out the penalties than it was that Orton just flat out stunk.

Florida_Bronco
09-13-2010, 04:42 PM
109. Lower level 60 yard line.

You had good seats. I was all the way up in the 400's on the Broncos side.

bendog
09-13-2010, 04:52 PM
He's got a pt even though homers don't like it. Orton doesn't convert 3rd and long well, never has never will. Comparing him to Alex Smith or MelonHead is meaningless. Smith sucks and indy couldn't stop the runninggame. If Denver can't run the ball, they really have little chance in any game. But from what little I saw, Orton wasn't the problem. He's not really a guy who is going to cost a team wins very often. Keep him at 3rd and 3 and he can move the chains.

If they can't beat seattle, they're even worse than I think they are, and I don't think they're in the top half of the league in terms of talent.

broncosteven
09-13-2010, 04:54 PM
Orton had a 90 QB rating, 300 yards passing, and even ran for a first down or two. His INT came when he was in a pass-only hole with a minute left in the game.

He was the LEAST of our problems today.


For a guy who touts himself as having an elite football education, you should understand that a team with no offensive line has no balance... and hence ANY QB in that system is going to run into problems.


You're the only person outside of BPC on this forum who will be pushing this agenda, dude. The rest of us were pretty happy with Orton's play today.

Are we talking about the 2008 Denver vs Buffalo game or yesterday's game?

TheReverend
09-13-2010, 05:01 PM
He's got a pt even though homers don't like it. Orton doesn't convert 3rd and long well, never has never will. Comparing him to Alex Smith or MelonHead is meaningless. Smith sucks and indy couldn't stop the runninggame. If Denver can't run the ball, they really have little chance in any game. But from what little I saw, Orton wasn't the problem. He's not really a guy who is going to cost a team wins very often. Keep him at 3rd and 3 and he can move the chains.

If they can't beat seattle, they're even worse than I think they are, and I don't think they're in the top half of the league in terms of talent.

That's what I don't understand. I'd think all the guys that have been pumping Orton all off-season would've been the most disappointed, but it seems to have gone the other way outside of Montrose. It's hardly an indictment on the season he'll have this year, but it certainly was not a good start.

Spider
09-13-2010, 05:12 PM
Obviously you can only see so much with wide-angle TV shot but from what I could see there were plays to BLloyd and Jab down the field during those instances if Kyle had thrown the ball up.

well you dont have to see much to see the formation ....... And there is a serious problem with just lobbing it up . orton didnt have much time to survey the field and account for all the defenders , he lobs without knowing where everyone is , and he makes Plummer look like a ball control hawk ......

bendog
09-13-2010, 05:17 PM
"That's what I don't understand. I'd think all the guys that have been pumping Orton all off-season would've been the most disappointed, but it seems to have gone the other way outside of Montrose. It's hardly an indictment on the season he'll have this year, but it certainly was not a good start."

But from what I saw and read (I listened on the net a little in the first) and most of the 4th seemed to be on TV (I'd been cleaning and watching hou/indy), Orton wasn't that bad. Your thread seems to imply he couldn't convert on third. It's not really that so much as he just doesn't have the skills to convert 3rd and 7, and the oline didn't help him yesterday. McDaniels has sucked the enthusiasm that I had left after seeing shanny bring in the guy who fathered children like a dog that needs fixing. Orton is Brian Sipe. Put the guy consistently in third and short, and he'll move the chains. Give him a top 5 defense and a running game, he'll possibly get deep in the playoffs.

He may be a fantasy steal, and will be unless he gets hurt or he loses the relatively few red zone chances (as compared to other qbs who see more because of better run games) to the Wildcat. lol

Hamrob
09-13-2010, 07:00 PM
Orton didn't play bad yesterday. And, although it's hard for me to say...he wasn't our biggest problem.

Oline
RB's
Dline

Those are bigger issues that Orton.

Having said that...Orton is not a crunch time QB (3rd downs or when the game is on the line). However, he did have a nice drive to end the half that resulted in a TD. Orton isn't the long term answer at QB and McD knows that. But, he would at last be servicable if our lines played better and we had any type of running game to help him out. To have guys like Hunter and Vickersham (or whatever his name is) starting on defense is absolutely pathetic!!!

To be fair...I believe McD addressed the Oline and that it will improve greatly during the season. Where McD screwed the pooch was at RB and the Dline. We could have done a lot more to have improved in these areas. To settle for Moreno and Buck and not bring in any real competition and then to go get a back up DE and 13yr NT to supposedly fix the Dline is not acceptable. To have hunter and Vickersham (or whatever his name is) starting on defense is absolutely pathetic!!!

TonyR
09-13-2010, 07:13 PM
Dline


Regarding the D-line, I posted the below on a thread earlier today and didn't get much response:

Legwold's article today ( http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16058674 ) suggests that much/most of the rushing damage was done against our nickel. Agree/disagree? Did we over-employ the nickel? Curious what people think of this and the implications.

Beantown Bronco
09-14-2010, 09:02 AM
Mark Sanchez just made Kyle Orton on third down look like Joe Montana out there.

TheReverend
12-19-2010, 01:38 PM
I'm not suggesting benching him. I'm saying it's unacceptable and Josh has to have him MUCH better prepared or we are in for the season cutthemdown has been predicting.

Welp...