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View Full Version : 4th and 3 is a running down...


Taco John
09-12-2010, 01:41 PM
Just sayin. If on 4th and 3, you are clearing out your backfield, you're saying something about the faith that you have in your running backs.

Popps
09-12-2010, 01:42 PM
Just sayin. If on 4th and 3, you are clearing out your backfield, you're saying something about the faith that you have in your running backs.

These days, it's probably a passing down in that position... but how about a play designed to pick up 4 yards?

If we score, it looks brilliant, of course. But, I would have liked a higher percentage play, personally.

Hercules Rockefeller
09-12-2010, 01:42 PM
No, it's not. 3 yds is a passing distance on 4th down for every team.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
09-12-2010, 01:42 PM
Well, unless you're trying to outsmart the defense... and end up outsmarting yourself.

Shanahan ran on 4th and short all the time. All the time. In fact, every coach does on occasion.

whoops, 4th and short.

Rulon Velvet Jones
09-12-2010, 01:42 PM
Not when you know your passing game is good against the weakest aspect of the opponent's defense.

That One Guy
09-12-2010, 01:42 PM
These days, it's probably a passing down in that position... but how about a play designed to pick up 4 yards?

If we score, it looks brilliant, of course. But, I would have liked a higher percentage play, personally.

I usually get annoyed by people saying "This" but... well...

This.

broncosteven
09-12-2010, 01:43 PM
I was going to start a thread asking when our young HC is going to grow out of rolling the dice on 4th down. Kick the FG, then hope the D holds (which they did) then play for the WIN rather than the tie.

2 years now of 4th down dice rolls coming up snake eyes.

baja
09-12-2010, 01:44 PM
TJ i did not agree with the call either but if we score you would be calling mcD the new mastermind

Popps
09-12-2010, 01:45 PM
TJ i did not agree with the call either but if we score you would be calling mcD the new mastermind

It was within inches of being a score, btw. Not like it was a total whiff.

Taco John
09-12-2010, 01:45 PM
All I'm saying is, they cleared out the backfield. On fourth down and 3 yards to go.

"We're not even going to play around and even try to fake you out. Look Defense - we need 4 yards, and here comes a pass."

oubronco
09-12-2010, 01:45 PM
Just sayin. If on 4th and 3, you are clearing out your backfield, you're saying something about the faith that you have in your running backs.

We have no running game

The Joker
09-12-2010, 01:45 PM
No it isn't.

I don't know what the stats are, but if teams going for it on 4th and 3 ran the ball anywhere near 50% of the time last season I'd be amazed.

baja
09-12-2010, 01:46 PM
It was within inches of being a score, btw. Not like it was a total whiff.

in this game i would have taken the field goal

DBruleU
09-12-2010, 01:47 PM
Uh, not sure many teams run on 4th and 3. Pass was the right call...would have rather seen something to just pick up the 1st, but the pass was an inch away from being a TD...great catch by Lloyd.

Requiem
09-12-2010, 01:47 PM
in this game i would have taken the field goal

I probably would have too, if you have faith in your defense enough to get you back the ball and have the opportunity to win the game.

Taco John
09-12-2010, 01:47 PM
TJ i did not agree with the call either but if we score you would be calling mcD the new mastermind


If we would have converted that, I still would have been suprised at the playcall, but would have been thrilled about the execution. You have to be perfect to convert a 4th and 3 pass when you've cleared out the backfield.

The MVPlaya
09-12-2010, 01:48 PM
These days, it's probably a passing down in that position... but how about a play designed to pick up 4 yards?

If we score, it looks brilliant, of course. But, I would have liked a higher percentage play, personally.

It was. It looked like a read play, and he read single coverage on the outside so he went in that direction.

That One Guy
09-12-2010, 01:48 PM
It was within inches of being a score, btw. Not like it was a total whiff.

The players made a great effort but it was a high risk, low % play from there. You don't take such risks when they could potentially sink you at that point and you don't have to.

Taco John
09-12-2010, 01:48 PM
No it isn't.

I don't know what the stats are, but if teams going for it on 4th and 3 ran the ball anywhere near 50% of the time last season I'd be amazed.

I doubt you're right, but even still: How many of them cleared out their backfield?

ant1999e
09-12-2010, 01:48 PM
We have no running game

This. We weren't going to fool anyone.

That One Guy
09-12-2010, 01:49 PM
If we would have converted that, I still would have been suprised at the playcall, but would have been thrilled about the execution. You have to be perfect to convert a 4th and 3 pass when you've cleared out the backfield.

A 4th and 3 pass like NE runs with Welker where he goes to the other side of the 1st down marker and turns around would've been just fine in my opinion.

Popps
09-12-2010, 01:49 PM
in this game i would have taken the field goal

I wouldn't have. Not on the road, and not the way our secondary had been getting eaten up.

No pressure up front most of the day... about what I expected and always a recipe for trouble.

I sound like a broken record, but you can't win NFL games without disrupting the passing games these days. It's been our problem most of the past decade.

SoCalBronco
09-12-2010, 01:50 PM
I think it was also a faith in the interior OL thing, Taco. It's not fair to ask kids to push them three yards against a 9 man front. You've got to play to your strengths, although I would have rather thrown a short stick pass or something than a fade.

The MVPlaya
09-12-2010, 01:50 PM
I was going to start a thread asking when our young HC is going to grow out of rolling the dice on 4th down. Kick the FG, then hope the D holds (which they did) then play for the WIN rather than the tie.

2 years now of 4th down dice rolls coming up snake eyes.

Well - you can kick the FG and still be down a touchdown. You need to score a touchdown either way...

Broncoman13
09-12-2010, 01:51 PM
Just sayin. If on 4th and 3, you are clearing out your backfield, you're saying something about the faith that you have in your running backs.

4th and 3 is NOT a running down. It's a down to roll the QB giving him options. The only way you run on 4th and 3 is if you're the Texans, you have Arian Foster and you're playing the Colts. Other than that, rolling the QB is the best play call.

baja
09-12-2010, 01:51 PM
I probably would have too, if you have faith in your defense enough to get you back the ball and have the opportunity to win the game.

if you can't put it on your D in this situation you will lose a lot of games. there was plenty of time left.

broncosteven
09-12-2010, 01:52 PM
Well - you can kick the FG and still be down a touchdown. You need to score a touchdown either way...

Yep, and if you kick the FG and then score the TD you win, not tie.

Oh well, maybe next week we will dominate an avg team.

NASurfer
09-12-2010, 01:52 PM
No it isn't.

I don't know what the stats are, but if teams going for it on 4th and 3 ran the ball anywhere near 50% of the time last season I'd be amazed.
It's a running down for the early 2000's Chiefs but not for a team with a generally weak offensive line.

My issue was forcing the ball to the sidelines where the DB could easily funnel the WR out of bounds, it was close though... damn.

Tombstone RJ
09-12-2010, 01:53 PM
Just sayin. If on 4th and 3, you are clearing out your backfield, you're saying something about the faith that you have in your running backs.

Yah the message is: this is a spread offense where we pass for first downs.

you are pushing the panic button over nothing

Broncoman13
09-12-2010, 01:54 PM
Not sure why we don't run the "jerk" route with Royal more in those situations. Middle of the field is way open, especially when they're playing the sides and trying to focus everything to the middle. I thought the bubble screen in that scenario was a poor call. I also thought the final offensive play was close to pass interference... throw the ball up to where the receiver has to come back to it and it would have been.

The MVPlaya
09-12-2010, 01:55 PM
4th and 3 is not a running down in any situation. Maybe if you're trying to catch the defense off guard, but you won't see any team in the NFL run the ball with a heavy formation on 4th and 3.

fontaine
09-12-2010, 01:56 PM
TJ you're wrong about 4th and 3 being a running down, but you're right when you say that clearing out your backfield and not even pretending to run is a bit weak.

Especially when the pass went right to their best cover guy in Mathis.

But then again we have no reliable TEs, and no power running game, well no running game really to speak of since McD dropped the ZBS.

So that leaves flooding the secondary with WRs and expecting the QB to make the play happen.

BlaK-Argentina
09-12-2010, 01:58 PM
I wouldn't have. Not on the road, and not the way our secondary had been getting eaten up.

No pressure up front most of the day... about what I expected and always a recipe for trouble.

I sound like a broken record, but you can't win NFL games without disrupting the passing games these days. It's been our problem most of the past decade.

Ayers played very well. Had good pressure. With Doom in there we win this game going away IMO.

Rohirrim
09-12-2010, 01:59 PM
I think what TJ means to say is,

If we only had Hillis! ;D

jutang
09-12-2010, 02:01 PM
I finally realized that Taco John is really Dan Reeves!

Taco John
09-12-2010, 02:01 PM
I think what TJ means to say is,

If we only had Hillis! ;D

Hillis had two fumbles today.

But that's beside the point.

I don't think Josh has much faith in Moreno. I think this game showed that. But more than that, teams don't really have to do any game planning to keep Moreno in check.

I don't know if I'm hitting the panic button over it yet, but we're going to be in a lot of close games this season. IMO, in the 4th quarter, 4th and 3 is a running down - or at the very least, you should be trying to disguise your pass with a run.

Popps
09-12-2010, 02:06 PM
Hillis had two fumbles today.
..

Not a big surprise.


H
I don't think Josh has much faith in Moreno..

It's not Moreno, man. He gave the ball to Moreno twice in a row on the earlier drive, and was rewarded with a TD.

It's the RUNNING GAME, as in... the line. McDaniels isn't making decisions based on 1 puzzle piece out there, Taco.


Beyond that, 4th and 3 from that spot is very rarely a running down, man.
It's just not.

barryr
09-12-2010, 02:09 PM
4th and 3 hasn't been a running play since the 1960's.

orange 4 life
09-12-2010, 02:09 PM
Just sayin. If on 4th and 3, you are clearing out your backfield, you're saying something about the faith that you have in your running backs.

Or at least a short pass.
That awful play call cost us the game (among many other things I suppose) and IMHO it's a no brainer.
Call a play to get the first down and take your shots at the endzone with a fresh set of downs.

Dumb call. Wasn't the first.

Requiem
09-12-2010, 02:10 PM
It's the RUNNING GAME, as in... the line. McDaniels isn't making decisions based on 1 puzzle piece out there, Taco.

You'll have to forgive Taco for the excessive use of Occam's Razor today. Sometimes. . . it is just easier that way. ROFL!

Broncoman13
09-12-2010, 02:11 PM
Hillis had two fumbles today.

But that's beside the point.

I don't think Josh has much faith in Moreno. I think this game showed that. But more than that, teams don't really have to do any game planning to keep Moreno in check.

I don't know if I'm hitting the panic button over it yet, but we're going to be in a lot of close games this season. IMO, in the 4th quarter, 4th and 3 is a running down - or at the very least, you should be trying to disguise your pass with a run.

I do agree that you don't empty the backfield.

Knowshon isn't the problem. Not sure how you see a problem with him. 15 carries for 60 yards and a couple of those were in short yardage situations, one of which was a TD conversion. I thought Moreno looked really good. I hope that he gets his act together in the 2nd level though. He has to make plays in one on one situations with a safety. It was a problem last year and he had a couple opportunities today. Long of 17 today and that could have very easily been 25+ if he shakes the safety.

Rohirrim
09-12-2010, 02:13 PM
Hillis had two fumbles today.

But that's beside the point.

I don't think Josh has much faith in Moreno. I think this game showed that. But more than that, teams don't really have to do any game planning to keep Moreno in check.

I don't know if I'm hitting the panic button over it yet, but we're going to be in a lot of close games this season. IMO, in the 4th quarter, 4th and 3 is a running down - or at the very least, you should be trying to disguise your pass with a run.

Our Oline is weak. We knew that going in. Look how many running plays went to the outside?. Did we even try it up the pipe once? What would be the point? You've got to play with what you've got and make the best of it.

Today's game is the best argument for why Josh shouldn't have taken Tebow. He could have taken three lineman for what Tebow cost.

Here's the second point:
I think that J'Ville has put together a pretty good Dline down there. They brought in Joe Cullen and turned it over to him. Then, he brings in Kampman, and while we're chasing after Tebow, he makes the surprise pick of the day (not to me) and takes Alualu. They also brought in Larry Hart and Austen Lane (another player I would have used one of those Tebow picks on - and said so on draft day) so, in many ways, we see the results in today's game from the two different directions these two teams took. Josh chased after a "star" QB, and the Jags built a Dline. Jags win.

fontaine
09-12-2010, 02:13 PM
It's not just the one play.

We're simply not going to beat teams in a tight game passing the ball 33 times and rushing it only 21 times with Orton at QB.

I like the guy, he's a team player and will give you his best but expecting him to carry the offense is just stupid.

McD and the rest of the coaches simply need to get the running game better.

It's as simple as that.

Taco John
09-12-2010, 02:14 PM
It's a bad down to clear out your backfield. And I disagree... In the second quarter, it may be a passing down. But in the 4th quarter, you should be pounding the football. We went shotgun 3 times in a row on 3 seperate occassions in the fourth quarter. Jacksonville went shotgun once all fourth quarter.

If that doesn't alarm you a little, that's fine. But it alarms me.

Jesterhole
09-12-2010, 02:14 PM
It doesn't matter what the play was. We should have gone for 4 yards. There have to be 10x as many plays in there that will get you 4 yards than ones that will get you +10 and into the endzone.

I don't mind going for it, but a stupid, stupid play call. Just one more example of McDaniels as a failure.

ScottXray
09-12-2010, 02:15 PM
Hillis had two fumbles today.

But that's beside the point.

I don't think Josh has much faith in Moreno. I think this game showed that. But more than that, teams don't really have to do any game planning to keep Moreno in check.

I don't know if I'm hitting the panic button over it yet, but we're going to be in a lot of close games this season. IMO, in the 4th quarter, 4th and 3 is a running down - or at the very least, you should be trying to disguise your pass with a run.

Agree about not clearing the BF. For 3 rooks on the O-line they did pretty well in Pass protect. Run blocking was pretty bad. Moreno was still getting hit in the BF a lot, and Buck did nada, zero , zip when he was in. As usual Moreno got the calls up the gut and Buck to the outside. Moreno was more effective at both.

Too much going to the well and Gaffney was open to the outside on that last play by Orton. Pick was on Orton alone... he needs to play better than that if we are to win games that are close. He put up decent numbers, but didn't take control.

Overall, I'm not too down. Our secondary did not play up to expectations, and McNeal gave the jags that last TD drive with stupid penalties...exactly when we didn't need them.

Royal disappeared in the 2nd half.

McD called some stupid plays...I don't know what you put Tebow in for 1st and 2nd downs for, if you take Orton out. No disguise or "Wild" flavor to those plays. And Tebow as a RB made no sense when the line was getting stuffed in the middle.

Overall...we are 0-1....should get to 1-1 next week.

Take em as they come.

Dagmar
09-12-2010, 02:16 PM
It doesn't matter what the play was. We should have gone for 4 yards. There have to be 10x as many plays in there that will get you 4 yards than ones that will get you +10 and into the endzone.

I don't mind going for it, but a stupid, stupid play call. Just one more example of McDaniels as a failure.

Exactly. What were your NFL coaching credentials again? No? College? No? High School?

Get back to the fryers at MacDonalds you pathetic ****.

Dagmar
09-12-2010, 02:17 PM
Hillis had two fumbles today.

But that's beside the point.

I don't think Josh has much faith in Moreno. I think this game showed that. But more than that, teams don't really have to do any game planning to keep Moreno in check.

I don't know if I'm hitting the panic button over it yet, but we're going to be in a lot of close games this season. IMO, in the 4th quarter, 4th and 3 is a running down - or at the very least, you should be trying to disguise your pass with a run.

How is it beside the point? Why do you give allowances for Browns but not for your own team??

Taco John
09-12-2010, 02:18 PM
I do agree that you don't empty the backfield.

Knowshon isn't the problem. Not sure how you see a problem with him. 15 carries for 60 yards and a couple of those were in short yardage situations, one of which was a TD conversion. I thought Moreno looked really good. I hope that he gets his act together in the 2nd level though. He has to make plays in one on one situations with a safety. It was a problem last year and he had a couple opportunities today. Long of 17 today and that could have very easily been 25+ if he shakes the safety.


If Knowshon is so great then why are we putting the entire game in Orton's shoulders by going to the shotgun 3 times in a row on 3 seperate occassions in the fourth quarter instead of pounding the defense?

That was a finesse loss. That's a concern.

TonyR
09-12-2010, 02:19 PM
You might want to consider changing your thread title since 4th and 3 isn't a running down in today's NFL. Just sayin.

Taco John
09-12-2010, 02:19 PM
How is it beside the point? Why do you give allowances for Browns but not for your own team??

Get out of my face with Browns talk on Broncos Sunday you git. This thread is not about Hillis. Go find one that is if you want to talk about him.

snowspot66
09-12-2010, 02:19 PM
It's a bad down to clear out your backfield. And I disagree... In the second quarter, it may be a passing down. But in the 4th quarter, you should be pounding the football. We went shotgun 3 times in a row on 3 seperate occassions in the fourth quarter. Jacksonville went shotgun once all fourth quarter.

If that doesn't alarm you a little, that's fine. But it alarms me.

McDaniels likes to pass. Both our RB's were in their first action since last year. Our OL is full of dinged up or rookie or both players.

It seems quite reasonable to me that we would go shotgun and not try to run on 4 and 3.

baja
09-12-2010, 02:20 PM
If Knowshon is so great then why are we putting the entire game in Orton's shoulders by going to the shotgun 3 times in a row on 3 seperate occassions in the fourth quarter instead of pounding the defense?

That was a finesse loss. That's a concern.

Our 1 & 2 RBs were injured all pre season give them time to get in rhythm and get their game legs. Not to mention the O line is in disarray

Cito Pelon
09-12-2010, 02:21 PM
Just sayin. If on 4th and 3, you are clearing out your backfield, you're saying something about the faith that you have in your running backs.

Please. 4th and 3 is certainly not a running down. It CAN be a running down, but it is certainly not a given.

TonyR
09-12-2010, 02:21 PM
If Knowshon is so great then why are we putting the entire game in Orton's shoulders by going to the shotgun 3 times in a row on 3 seperate occassions in the fourth quarter instead of pounding the defense?

Maybe because our O-line sucks and we have two gimpy, rusty RB's? Just maybe? And who said "Knowshon is so great"?

Popps
09-12-2010, 02:25 PM
If Knowshon is so great then why are we putting the entire game in Orton's shoulders by going to the shotgun 3 times in a row on 3 seperate occassions in the fourth quarter instead of pounding the defense?

That was a finesse loss. That's a concern.

I wouldn't disagree that we need to be more physical.

But, Orton is our best offensive player. He looked great today. Of course you put the game in his hands on 4th and 3.

Again, you're built this thread on a false premise, Taco. Our run game definitely has to get better. (Blocking, in particular.) But, that has little to do with what happened on that 4th and 3 play.

Jesterhole
09-12-2010, 02:25 PM
Exactly. What were your NFL coaching credentials again? No? College? No? High School?

Get back to the fryers at MacDonalds you pathetic ****.

Haha, I'd figure that trailer trash like you could spell McDonalds. Perhaps your Aunt Mother should have raised you better.

I'm I hurting your feelings again? We are 2-9 in our last games...your boy wonder is doing a great job. Keep up the blind homerism and keep chugging your bud light!

Taco John
09-12-2010, 02:31 PM
I wouldn't disagree that we need to be more physical.

But, Orton is our best offensive player. He looked great today. Of course you put the game in his hands on 4th and 3.

Again, you're built this thread on a false premise, Taco. Our run game definitely has to get better. (Blocking, in particular.) But, that has little to do with what happened on that 4th and 3 play.

I disagree. I think that 4th and 3 play is a microcosm of where our team is at right now. We turned the 4th quarter over to Orton, and if we expect to do that all season, we're going to lose. Not that Orton is a bad quarterback, it's just that he's not that kind of guy. He showed it with his last two passes, both to covered guys. The guy is as gutty a quarterback as you can hope to have, but he needs rushing support. It's not an option.

Does anyone here really think we can win consistently by clearing out our backfield and throwing shotgun throughout the 4th quarter all season long?

I'm not saying that we should hit the panic button yet, but we need more than 75 yards out of our rushing game against teams like Jacksonville.

TonyR
09-12-2010, 02:34 PM
...we need more than 75 yards out of our rushing game against teams like Jacksonville.

Now here's something that's correct. If we can't do better than this then we're in big trouble, no doubt. But 4th and 3 still isn't a "running down" as the thread title and OP suggests.

Beantown Bronco
09-12-2010, 02:35 PM
Not that Orton is a bad quarterback, it's just that he's not that kind of guy. He showed it with his last two passes, both to covered guys.

Less than a minute to go in the game and the defense is only worried about the pass. Good luck finding a guy who ISN'T covered.

Lev Vyvanse
09-12-2010, 02:36 PM
I think we need a poll.
Anyone who thinks it's not a viable option to spread out the defence like that, on any down, hasn't been watching football the last decade. I love smash mouth football, but that boat has sailed. I personally don't like football as much as I use to because of the spread.

Taco John
09-12-2010, 02:36 PM
Now here's something that's correct. If we can't do better than this then we're in big trouble, no doubt. But 4th and 3 still isn't a "running down" as the thread title and OP suggests.

If you're any kind of a team it is.

snowspot66
09-12-2010, 02:40 PM
If you're any kind of a team it is.

I don't think you'll find much support for this statement. Especially when it's in or near the red zone.

Beantown Bronco
09-12-2010, 02:42 PM
I honestly can't remember the last time I saw a true running play called on 4th and anything more than 2. If the ball is ever run there, it's a QB sneak on 4th and 1.

4th and 3? Taco: I'd donate $1,000 to the Mane's server fund if you could prove that it's a running down for any NFL team even 30% of the time over the last 2-3 years. There's simply no way.

strafen
09-12-2010, 02:43 PM
These days, it's probably a passing down in that position... but how about a play designed to pick up 4 yards?

If we score, it looks brilliant, of course. But, I would have liked a higher percentage play, personally.

He had Royal open on the left side IIRC. All he needed was 3+ yards. Orton decided to go for broke on that play, but that's not who he is.
He can't make those kind of plays regularly because he's not used to it.
We can not put the game on Orton's shoulders. Never!
We need a running game to help him out.
That's why the dink and dunk was designed for him...

Rohirrim
09-12-2010, 02:45 PM
I think we need a poll.
Anyone who thinks it's not a viable option to spread out the defence like that, on any down, hasn't been watching football the last decade. I love smash mouth football, but that boat has sailed. I personally don't like football as much as I use to because of the spread.

Bingo. I don't like it either. But the league has turned the game on its head. The old saying was that three things could happen when you pass, and two of them are bad. Now it's changed to two to them are good - a completion or a penalty.

jsco70
09-12-2010, 02:47 PM
I think, TJ, you should change your previous post and state the truth...YOU don't have faith in Moreno. 4th and three might have been a running down in the past, but the NFL is a passing league now. You know this.

Beantown Bronco
09-12-2010, 02:47 PM
He had Royal open on the left side IIRC. All he needed was 3+ yards. Orton decided to go for broke on that play, but that's not who he is....

I'm watching this play now.

He never even looked that way because it was designed to go to Lloyd and Lloyd alone if he was in single coverage. I don't think that was Orton's call.

Royal and Gaffney were running a pick play on the other side of the field. Not sure what would've happened there cause the play happened so quick.

He can't make those kind of plays regularly because he's not used to it.
We can not put the game on Orton's shoulders. Never!...

I now know at least one person who missed the NE game last year.

Lev Vyvanse
09-12-2010, 02:49 PM
I honestly can't remember the last time I saw a true running play called on 4th and anything more than 2. If the ball is ever run there, it's a QB sneak on 4th and 1.

4th and 3? Taco: I'd donate $1,000 to the Mane's server fund if you could prove that it's a running down for any NFL team even 30% of the time over the last 2-3 years. There's simply no way.

New York Jets last year had 2 passing Att. when 4th and 3-7 yards and 3 rushing plays. Pay up.

RhymesayersDU
09-12-2010, 02:49 PM
4th and 3 is not a running down. At all.

But I agree that I dislike tipping your hand by clearing out the backfield.

I also dislike going for endzone when you just need 3 yards.

Dagmar
09-12-2010, 02:52 PM
Get out of my face with Browns talk on Broncos Sunday you git. This thread is not about Hillis. Go find one that is if you want to talk about him.

:spit: I can't tell if you are serious or not...

Beantown Bronco
09-12-2010, 02:53 PM
New York Jets last year had 2 passing Att. when 4th and 3-7 yards and 3 rushing plays. Pay up.

I'll let you read my challenge again. Once obviously wasn't enough.

oubronco
09-12-2010, 02:54 PM
If we had a good defensive line we wouldn't even be discussing this

Dagmar
09-12-2010, 02:55 PM
If we had a good defensive line we wouldn't even be discussing this

It was their 1st game together. We saw flashes of promise today, I felt the much lauded secondary was the biggest weakness today.

The MVPlaya
09-12-2010, 02:56 PM
If we had a good defensive line we wouldn't even be discussing this

not about our dline, about our pass rush... Ayers had 4 QB hits alone.

Kampman had 6 and and Jags had 11 as a team...thats horrible.

baja
09-12-2010, 02:57 PM
It was their 1st game together. We saw flashes of promise today, I felt the much lauded secondary was the biggest weakness today.


truthfully wink did not have a good day

R8R H8R
09-12-2010, 02:57 PM
Just sayin. If on 4th and 3, you are clearing out your backfield, you're saying something about the faith that you have in your running backs.

Disagree. Here's why:

If on 3rd and 3 MCD already knew he would go for it if they don't make it, then 3rd and 3 would have been the running play. That way if Moreno/ Buck doesn't make it, but possibly gets 1 or 2 yds. to make it 4th and 1 or 2, then the 4th down can be either.

The Jags D wouldn't know how to play it and it changes their coverage and changes the situation to be in our favor. But that was not the case, they knew the Broncos were going to pass on 4th and 3, and it showed.

baja
09-12-2010, 02:57 PM
the biggest problem today was STs

oubronco
09-12-2010, 03:00 PM
the biggest problem today was STs

I say defensive playcalling when you leave the middle of the field vacated the other team will utilize it and they did

SoCalBronco
09-12-2010, 03:00 PM
Bingo. I don't like it either. But the league has turned the game on its head. The old saying was that three things could happen when you pass, and two of them are bad. Now it's changed to two to them are good - a completion or a penalty.

Eh..I've never cared for that whole "three things can happen when you pass, two are bad" type of mentality. There's four things that can happen when you run the ball, and three of them are bad.

R8R H8R
09-12-2010, 03:01 PM
If we had a good defensive line we wouldn't even be discussing this

Yep. This is where the game was lost, imo. We couldn't stop MJD when it mattered and we couldn't consistently pressure Garrard. Game over.

The MVPlaya
09-12-2010, 03:04 PM
Yep. This is where the game was lost, imo. We couldn't stop MJD when it mattered and we couldn't consistently pressure Garrard. Game over.

So the 4th down stop wasn't much.

Stopping him to get the ball back to give us a chance to tie the game under 2 minutes didn't count either I guess.

We played MJD good today, not sure how you can see anything else.

Lev Vyvanse
09-12-2010, 03:08 PM
I'll let you read my challenge again. Once obviously wasn't enough.

How about this.
The Giants over the last two years have passed the ball 5 times on 4th and 3-7 and run the ball twice. 35%. Pay up.

Rock Chalk
09-12-2010, 03:09 PM
I was going to start a thread asking when our young HC is going to grow out of rolling the dice on 4th down. Kick the FG, then hope the D holds (which they did) then play for the WIN rather than the tie.

2 years now of 4th down dice rolls coming up snake eyes.

The D only held because Jax was playing to run down the clock as much as possible. If the game is tied, Jax likely changes their playcalling to march down the field for a game winning FG.

And at that point I had no faith in our defense to stop them.

TonyR
09-12-2010, 03:11 PM
I say defensive playcalling when you leave the middle of the field vacated the other team will utilize it and they did

The D wasn't as bad as many are making it out to be. They need to do better overall for sure but they only gave up 299 net yards, 3.9 average per rush, and 3/10 3rd down conversions.

Beantown Bronco
09-12-2010, 03:12 PM
How about this.
The Giants over the last two years have passed the ball 5 times on 4th and 3-7 and run the ball twice. 35%. Pay up.

2 out of 7 is NOT 35%....try 28.57%. And that is assuming we're talking about true run calls and not QB sneaks (see my post again for this disclaimer)

Your math teachers would be real proud.

Lev Vyvanse
09-12-2010, 03:14 PM
2 out of 7 is NOT 35%....try 28.57%. And that is assuming we're talking about true run calls and not QB sneaks (see my post again for this disclaimer)

Your math teachers would be real proud.

No ****. I don't know what I was thinking. Thanks for being a dick though.

Beantown Bronco
09-12-2010, 03:14 PM
you're welcome

Rock Chalk
09-12-2010, 03:15 PM
New York Jets last year had 2 passing Att. when 4th and 3-7 yards and 3 rushing plays. Pay up.

Good point but the Jets were among the leagues top rushing teams and our Offensive line is broken down and our RBs are ruster.

Given the situation, 4th and 3 for the Denver broncos would not be a running play. It may be later on in the year if our O-line is healthy and our RBs are more up to game speed but this day, 4th and 3 is a passing play and would be for 100% of the teams given the same circumstances.

Lolad
09-12-2010, 03:15 PM
It was their 1st game together. We saw flashes of promise today, I felt the much lauded secondary was the biggest weakness today.

There was hardly any pressure all day. We sent the house too many times and left our corners on islands. They caught a lot of crossing patterns

oubronco
09-12-2010, 03:18 PM
The D wasn't as bad as many are making it out to be. They need to do better overall for sure but they only gave up 299 net yards, 3.9 average per rush, and 3/10 3rd down conversions.

But when you need a stop you don't leave the middle of the field wide open

Dagmar
09-12-2010, 03:19 PM
There was hardly any pressure all day. We sent the house too many times and left our corners on islands. They caught a lot of crossing patterns

The aggressiveness in the 1st half was working. The 2nd half we were gassed and fell apart.

Bronco Yoda
09-12-2010, 03:21 PM
4th and 3 is NOT a running down.

fontaine
09-12-2010, 03:24 PM
Guys it's not about the one play call.

If we could somehow go back in time and make it so the perfect play was called for a TD, would it fix:

1. The lack of pass rush going back years?
2. The mediocre to poor rush defense we've had for years?
3. The crappy ground game going back to last year?
4. The lousy ST that cost us at least two games a season?

This team has bigger problems than just ONE goddamn play call and ONE freakin' RB in Moreno.

McDaniels is looking more and more like Shanahan every game as the guy that's supposed to bring in the right defensive talent.

McD has gone through two DL's worth of starters in his two years here, just like Shanahan did every year but the results are still pretty much the same.

THAT'S the problem. We're still a mediocre team in the trenches and we'll keep seeing games like this one like a lousy rerun until we fix that.

Br0nc0Buster
09-12-2010, 03:31 PM
I was fine going with it there, but didnt like the call
a fade route on 4th and 3 is not a high percentage play at all, and because they were blitzing a quick slant would of been much better I would think

TonyR
09-12-2010, 03:35 PM
2. The mediocre to poor rush defense we've had for years?

Our rush D really wasn't bad today. 134 yards, 3.9 avg. Not great but not as awful as many are saying here today.

Lev Vyvanse
09-12-2010, 03:42 PM
2 out of 7 is NOT 35%....try 28.57%. And that is assuming we're talking about true run calls and not QB sneaks (see my post again for this disclaimer)

Your math teachers would be real proud.

This is the last time I embarrass myself. KC 4th and 3-7yds nine passes and four rushes haven't checked for QB yet. Pay up dick.

R8R H8R
09-12-2010, 03:47 PM
So the 4th down stop wasn't much.

Huge play, no doubt. But you obviously missed my point.
The Jags ran for 134 yds. today and MJD got 98 of them. The score to take the lead coming out of half time was set-up by running the ball down our throats to get deep in our territory. Not a good day for the D today, not sure how you can see anything else.

Stopping him to get the ball back to give us a chance to tie the game under 2 minutes didn't count either I guess.

That was fine, but they got a 1st down to begin the series and enable them to take at least another 2 mins. off the clock. This was after they fed the ball to MJD when we knew what they were going to do. That is the kind of thing I'm talking about.

We played MJD good today, not sure how you can see anything else.

As I said in the 1st quote, they got 134 yds on the ground and MJD got 98 of them. That is not good any way you slice it. For every good stop we may have had, they got 2 or 3 that killed us.

Beantown Bronco
09-12-2010, 06:40 PM
This is the last time I embarrass myself. KC 4th and 3-7yds nine passes and four rushes haven't checked for QB yet. Pay up dick.

Please provide your source.

I literally just spent 35 mins going through the nfl.com game logs for KC in 2009 and here's what they did in 4th and 3-7 yds when they didn't punt:

4 pass plays
3 sacks (all resulted in losses of more than 1 or 2 yds so you know they weren't even designed runs - they were true sacks)
1 punter scramble after muffing the snap
0 designed running plays

[Edit below]

Just finished the review of their 2008 season:

5 pass plays
2 QB scrambles (both from shotgun formation)
0 designed runs (unless the QB scrambles from the shotgun were designed - no way to know for sure)

So.....last two years....quite possibly 0 designed running plays and 14 passing plays.

broncosteven
09-12-2010, 06:56 PM
Does anyone here really think we can win consistently by clearing out our backfield and throwing shotgun throughout the 4th quarter all season long?


Nope,

I don't think we win by putting Tebow out there for a 1 yard gain on a crappy formation that has run it's course.

The MVPlaya
09-12-2010, 07:05 PM
Huge play, no doubt. But you obviously missed my point.
The Jags ran for 134 yds. today and MJD got 98 of them. The score to take the lead coming out of half time was set-up by running the ball down our throats to get deep in our territory. Not a good day for the D today, not sure how you can see anything else.


That was fine, but they got a 1st down to begin the series and enable them to take at least another 2 mins. off the clock. This was after they fed the ball to MJD when we knew what they were going to do. That is the kind of thing I'm talking about.



As I said in the 1st quote, they got 134 yds on the ground and MJD got 98 of them. That is not good any way you slice it. For every good stop we may have had, they got 2 or 3 that killed us.

The averaged 3.9 YPC.. which is good. It's not great, it's good. It's not bad, it's good. It's not horrible, it's good. It's unacceptable, it's good.

Anytime you can hold a team at <4.0 YPC you're doing a good job.

broncosteven
09-12-2010, 07:06 PM
The averaged 3.9 YPC.. which is good. It's not great, it's good. It's not bad, it's good. It's not horrible, it's good. It's unacceptable, it's good.

Anytime you can hold a team at <4.0 YPC you're doing a good job.

Jags did a good job holding us under 4.0 YPC today.

Rock Chalk
09-12-2010, 07:14 PM
This team will NEVER field a stifling defense the kinds of which we fantasize over. Bowlen doesn't hire that type of head coach. He has hired Shanahan and McDaniels and neither will ever BUILD a stifling defense.

The best we can hope for is an opportunistic defense that can **** with the elite QBs because the kinds of defense you see in NY Jets, Baltimore, Dallas, Pittsburgh in most years, that will never be in Denver so long as Bowlen is hiring the head coaches.

The MVPlaya
09-12-2010, 07:27 PM
I watched that 4th and 3 play again and Royal was wide open on the out route on the other side...

Beantown Bronco
09-12-2010, 07:30 PM
I watched that 4th and 3 play again and Royal was wide open on the out route on the other side...

Gaffney ran a sweet pick route there.

It was pretty obvious, though, where Orton was going with the ball. It was the quickest decision and release of the game. I assume it was designed that way, that if Lloyd had single coverage, he was instructed to go that way immediately.

The MVPlaya
09-12-2010, 07:31 PM
Gaffney ran a sweet pick route there.

It was pretty obvious, though, where Orton was going with the ball. It was the quickest decision and release of the game. I assume it was designed that way, that if Lloyd had single coverage, he was instructed to go that way immediately.

Exactly what I'm thinking since everything is based of pre-snap reads.

Lev Vyvanse
09-12-2010, 07:45 PM
Please provide your source.

I literally just spent 35 mins going through the nfl.com game logs for KC in 2009 and here's what they did in 4th and 3-7 yds when they didn't punt:

4 pass plays
3 sacks (all resulted in losses of more than 1 or 2 yds so you know they weren't even designed runs - they were true sacks)
1 punter scramble after muffing the snap
0 designed running plays

[Edit below]

Just finished the review of their 2008 season:

5 pass plays
2 QB scrambles (both from shotgun formation)
0 designed runs (unless the QB scrambles from the shotgun were designed - no way to know for sure)

So.....last two years....quite possibly 0 designed running plays and 14 passing plays.

I was looking at espn splits. I'm glad I got you to sift through KC game logs...dick.

Beantown Bronco
09-12-2010, 07:48 PM
I was looking at espn splits. I'm glad I got you to sift through KC game logs...dick.

Weird. You said earlier that you wouldn't embarass yourself again....and yet one page later, here you are.

Lev Vyvanse
09-12-2010, 07:49 PM
Weird. You said earlier that you wouldn't embarass yourself again....and yet one page later, here you are.

I'm not the one looking at KC game logs for 35 mins....dick.

Beantown Bronco
09-12-2010, 07:51 PM
I'm not the one looking at KC game logs for 35 mins....dick.

I'm not a welcher.

Your creativity with colorful metaphors is astounding BTW.

Cito Pelon
09-12-2010, 07:54 PM
in this game i would have taken the field goal

I probably would have gone for it. It's a toss up with less than 5 minutes left and down by 7. And it's the first game, and you're on the road. You kick the three, and it's only a maybe that you get the ball back to score again.

oubronco
09-12-2010, 07:57 PM
I probably would have gone for it. It's a toss up with less than 5 minutes left and down by 7. And it's the first game, and you're on the road. You kick the three, and it's only a maybe that you get the ball back to score again.

With the way our D was playing I doubt we would've seen the ball

footstepsfrom#27
09-12-2010, 08:03 PM
If Knowshon is so great then why are we putting the entire game in Orton's shoulders by going to the shotgun 3 times in a row on 3 seperate occassions in the fourth quarter instead of pounding the defense?
Keep in mind Moreno was getting his first action of the entire season and he's still dealing with the hanstring...so he may not have been in peak game condition, especially for a hot weather game like this. But I agree on emptying the backfield and over-using the shotgun as well. I think the running game will slowly improve as the season goes on.

SouthStndJunkie
09-12-2010, 08:14 PM
I don't think it's a running down, but I would have liked to have seen a higher percentage play run in that situation.

strafen
09-12-2010, 08:20 PM
I don't think it's a running down, but I would have liked to have seen a higher percentage play run in that situation.

Perfect!
And that was my point on my previous post.
Go for the high-percentage play. Orton's got no business attempting a long pass when all you need is 3 yards on a crucial 4th down play...
He (Orton) during the game I've noticed he hardly ever checked his receivers. He was locking in on his primary target.
Had he scanned the field, he would've seen other safer options.

Br0nc0Buster
09-12-2010, 08:27 PM
I don't think it's a running down, but I would have liked to have seen a higher percentage play run in that situation.

I would of preferred a safer pass as well, like a slant to Royal

but I think Josh said that Kyle knew where he was going before the snap
he saw that the corner was playing tight and inside, and Kyle knew they were blitzing, so he figured the fade would be there

it almost was, Lloyd was inches away from getting that other foot in