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GoBroncos DownUnder
09-11-2010, 02:13 AM
I thought the players doing that "one finger" thing before the game Thursday night was REALLY weird, so I looked up what it was about.
From the NFLPA website (http://www.nflplayers.com/Articles/Player-News/Kickoff-Message-From-All-NFL-Players-to-Our-Fans/):

Kickoff Message From All NFL Players to Our Fans
{ The Players of the National Football League will "stand as one" during the new season. }
Author: NFL Players AssociationPosted: 9/9/2010
KICKOFF MESSAGE FROM ALL NFL PLAYERS TO OUR FANS
We are men, and we are family men who love our country, our game and our fans.
As we face an uncertain future and the threat of being locked out of the game we love and rely on to provide for our families, we make to you this solemn promise:
To the Players who have come before us, fought and paid the price for pensions, health care and free agency—to men like John Mackey, Alan Page, Dan Marino, Freeman McNeil, Boomer Esiason, Reggie White and Kevin Mawae;
To the stadium workers, officers, businesses and everyone who gets their hands dirty working for this game;
To each and every player who risks everything for the thrill of this game;
To everyone who loves this game and lives as we do for kickoff;
And to the few who stand against us;
The Players and fans will STAND AS ONE.

- NFLPA Executive Committee: Charlie Batch, Drew Brees, Brian Dawkins, Domonique Foxworth, Scott Fujita, Sean Morey, Tony Richardson, Jeff Saturday, Mike Vrabel, Brian Waters & the Players of the National Football League.


--------------------


The Players and fans will STAND AS ONE. ... WTF? As a fan why the hell wasn't I asked who I supported before the millionaires assumed I was on their side?!?!

When the terminally stupid millionaires (players) can't come to an agreement, with the insanely greedy billionaires (owners), over how to share the proceeds from their $50,000,000,000 pie ... I don't think I give a flying f&#k!



Dear Mr Goodell, NFLPA, and NFL Owners,
Take note - I'm DONE with giving you my money.
If an item has an NFL tag on it, I WON'T buy it. Hats, t-shirts, jerseys ... I'm DONE with all of them, I already have a couple of each and I figure this should last me until I die. I like the old school stuff anyway, I don't want "Jonny New Kid"'s jersey, so he can get hurt or traded, as I contribute more money to the league and players. Screw you guys, I'm DONE.
I might buy a ticket to an NFL game in the future, and will still likely drink at a bar with the NFL ticket, because that's entirely for MY entertainment, but aside from that, DONE.

Good luck with the upcoming lock-out, call me when it's sorted out, ... I'll be engrossed in College Football (GO BIG RED!), so I might not notice, or care anymore.

As I raise my finger (middle) to you all, I wish you all the best. (Unlikely that you'll notice or care though)
GBDU

SouthStndJunkie
09-11-2010, 02:18 AM
Dear Mr Taglibue, NFLPA, and NFL Owners,
Take note - I'm DONE with giving you my money.
If an item has an NFL tag on it, I WON'T buy it. Hats, t-shirts, jerseys ... I'm DONE with all of them, I already have a couple of each and I figure this should last me until I die. I like the old school stuff anyway, I don't want "Jonny New Kid"'s jersey, so he can get hurt or traded, as I contribute more money to the league and players. Screw you guys, I'm DONE.
I might buy a ticket to an NFL game in the future, and will still likely drink at a bar with the NFL ticket, because that's entirely for MY entertainment, but aside from that, DONE.


Paul Tagliabue?

Roger Goodell has been the commish since 2006.

GoBroncos DownUnder
09-11-2010, 02:21 AM
Paul Tagliabue?

Roger Goodell has been the commish since 2006.

Holy ****, must be 5.20am ... I'll adjust that ... need sleep ...:notworthy

Remembering the good ole days when Tags and Upshaw used to run the league ... Tags would convince the owners to shut up and take their money, Upshaw would do the same to players ... aaaaaaaaaahhhhh, good times!:wiggle:

DivineLegion
09-11-2010, 02:28 AM
Martinez is going to rip Idaho a new one tomorrow...can't wait.

On the other hand I totally agree with the Players on this whole issue. They are the product no ifs ands or buts. I agree that they get payed way to much money, and something needs to be done about conduct. The rookie cap system is totally screwed sure, but these guys put a lot on the lines every week. For some of these guys the million dollar contracts that they receive are the peak of their financial security. It's not uncommon to hear about ex-NFL players working odd/****y jobs trying to make their way in a tough economy. What happens to the 23 year old kid dreaming of stardom that leaves college early and suffers a carrier ending injury during his second snap in the NFL? Most of these guys are rewarded with such large contracts because the degree of uncertainty surrounding the nature of football.

GoBroncos DownUnder
09-11-2010, 02:44 AM
On the other hand I totally agree with the Players on this whole issue. They are the product no ifs ands or buts. I agree that they get payed way to much money, and something needs to be done about conduct. The rookie cap system is totally screwed sure, but these guys put a lot on the lines every week. For some of these guys the million dollar contracts that they receive are the peak of their financial security. It's not uncommon to hear about ex-NFL players working odd/****y jobs trying to make their way in a tough economy. What happens to the 23 year old kid dreaming of stardom that leaves college early and suffers a carrier ending injury during his second snap in the NFL? Most of these guys are rewarded with such large contracts because the degree of uncertainty surrounding the nature of football.
I agree, but players play in stadiums they never paid for, under 30 coaches they don't have to pay either, earning money from a billion dollar TV deal they never had to negotiate.
It's a big nasty circle of "who needs who" more.
Like I said: Millionaires vs Billionaires - and only guarantee is that FANS will lose.

NUB
09-11-2010, 02:47 AM
Martinez is going to rip Idaho a new one tomorrow...can't wait.

On the other hand I totally agree with the Players on this whole issue. They are the product no ifs ands or buts. I agree that they get payed way to much money, and something needs to be done about conduct. The rookie cap system is totally screwed sure, but these guys put a lot on the lines every week. For some of these guys the million dollar contracts that they receive are the peak of their financial security. It's not uncommon to hear about ex-NFL players working odd/****y jobs trying to make their way in a tough economy. What happens to the 23 year old kid dreaming of stardom that leaves college early and suffers a carrier ending injury during his second snap in the NFL? Most of these guys are rewarded with such large contracts because the degree of uncertainty surrounding the nature of football.

Indeed... recall that when we re-picked up Tatum Bell a few years back he was selling cell phones in the mall.

DivineLegion
09-11-2010, 02:56 AM
I agree, but players play in stadiums they never paid for, under 30 coaches they don't have to pay either, earning money from a billion dollar TV deal they never had to negotiate.
It's a big nasty circle of "who needs who" more.
Like I said: Millionaires vs Billionaires - and only guarantee is that FANS will lose.

If the Players really wanted they could find some other Billionaire looking to start a sports league, and put a fork in the NFL. Nobody is going to pay to watch Eric Crouch play for the Indianapolis Colts while Peyton Manning is playing for the Omaha Nighthawks. What would Ford do if they could no longer make motor vehicles? What would Nike do if they lost their right to produce textiles? What would Kellogs do if they could no longer produce breakfast products? What are Oil tycoons going to sell when the Oil runs out? You don't have a business if you don't have a marketable product. The Players are the NFL's bread and butter. If the NFL wants to move on without the players they can do so, but they won't last long.

OBF1
09-11-2010, 03:35 AM
If the Players really wanted they could find some other Billionaire looking to start a sports league, and put a fork in the NFL. Nobody is going to pay to watch Eric Crouch play for the Indianapolis Colts while Peyton Manning is playing for the Omaha Nighthawks. What would Ford do if they could no longer make motor vehicles? What would Nike do if they lost their right to produce textiles? What would Kellogs do if they could no longer produce breakfast products? What are Oil tycoons going to sell when the Oil runs out? You don't have a business if you don't have a marketable product. The Players are the NFL's bread and butter. If the NFL wants to move on without the players they can do so, but they won't last long.

Such flawed logic and comments abound. First off the players are too stupid to find anyone... Besides that, billionairs do not become billionaires by giving up 60% or more of total income on salaries, It is just a poor business model to follow.


2) Said billionaires would need to build new stadiums and that takes years to do, In a few years there will be no Peyton Manning's, Bret Favre's or others that have been in the league for years now, So where would the players come from?

3) Way too many if's for me.... What IF you aunt had balls, would she become your uncle?

Son, go back to high school economics class then come back and tell me how a business is run, Your business plan would never work in the real world... and the orangemane is not the real world.

OBF1
09-11-2010, 03:40 AM
Indeed... recall that when we re-picked up Tatum Bell a few years back he was selling cell phones in the mall.

Serious question for you... Who's fault is it that a guy like Tatum Bell who not only got a college education (Free) made millions of dollars in the NFL had to work at a mall kiosk.

Is it the owners fault this guy spent his money like a drunk sailor in a whore house??? When do adults become responsible for their own actions and poor judgement???

DivineLegion
09-11-2010, 03:59 AM
Such flawed logic and comments abound. First off the players are too stupid to find anyone... Besides that, billionairs do not become billionaires by giving up 60% or more of total income on salaries, It is just a poor business model to follow.


2) Said billionaires would need to build new stadiums and that takes years to do, In a few years there will be no Peyton Manning's, Bret Favre's or others that have been in the league for years now, So where would the players come from?

3) Way too many if's for me.... What IF you aunt had balls, would she become your uncle?

Son, go back to high school economics class then come back and tell me how a business is run, Your business plan would never work in the real world... and the orangemane is not the real world.

You can't argue that the Players are the NFL's product, and where the hell did I present a business model? The only thing I posted was a hypothetical question. Do I need to pull my dictionary out for you, or are you good with that one?

Atwater His Ass
09-11-2010, 04:04 AM
Meh, it's all business on both sides. It's not any different from anyone else other than the amount of money at stake. The martydom both sides attempt to take is laughable.

I could really care less if the owners "win" or the players "win". I will not be affiliated with either side. I only care about the product put out on the field.

For me it's simple. When I stop caring about the product and the meaning of it out of the field, I'll just stop watching.

OBF1
09-11-2010, 04:05 AM
Oh, I sure could argue, but I need to go no further than either the stike shortened season when alot of fans still showed up or to college football where the players make ZERO $$$ unless your name is Reggie Bush. and 100K + show up in many stadiums.

But go ahead and head that players union to find new billionaires to take over... What a dumb ass... This is your business model

Play2win
09-11-2010, 04:06 AM
Brand is more (or can be) important than product.

Atwater His Ass
09-11-2010, 04:10 AM
Brand is more (or can be) important than product.

To you perhaps. To the majority of the population perhaps, which I agree if true, dictates the course of action each side must take, no matter if it is good for the game or not. Money talks, everybody wants to grab as much as they can. Neither side will care about the game itself, but only how much they can comporamise it to their desire before the average fan will stop pumping his money into it.

However, I personally do not care about the brand, the perception, or anything else related to it. I only care about when I stop caring about the league and the product it puts out on the field.

Not a problem the NFL has, since most sheep in America will trust in the brand and follow along no matter what happens, even if a lockout occurs. In only a few short years, people will forget about it, move on, and continue dumping their money into a league that really doesn't care.

Play2win
09-11-2010, 04:17 AM
Completely on the owner's side on this one. When its commonplace for players to not honor their contract, even though they are making absolute millions, something is not right. I wonder how the NFL salaries compare to movies/Hollywood. At this point it is all just entertainment. The difference is Hollywood/movies don't cram it down our throat how much they make...

Atwater His Ass
09-11-2010, 04:20 AM
It's a money grab on both sides (and I don't blame either side). They will both play to the media in an attempt to convert the simple minded to their side.

Bottom line for me is I just don't care as long as football continues uninterrupted. If any stoppage in play occurs, I will more than likely not watch another NFL game after that time.

Drek
09-11-2010, 04:55 AM
Completely on the owner's side on this one. When its commonplace for players to not honor their contract, even though they are making absolute millions, something is not right. I wonder how the NFL salaries compare to movies/Hollywood. At this point it is all just entertainment. The difference is Hollywood/movies don't cram it down our throat how much they make...

Teams don't honor player contracts either. They have the right to cut a player and avoid paying all non-guaranteed money from that point forth. In all sports leagues with guaranteed contracts (NBA, MLB, etc.) you never have players holding out. The NFL owners, by nature of their non-guaranteed contracts, empower the players to hold out.

broncogary
09-11-2010, 04:58 AM
Teams don't honor player contracts either. They have the right to cut a player and avoid paying all non-guaranteed money from that point forth. In all sports leagues with guaranteed contracts (NBA, MLB, etc.) you never have players holding out. The NFL owners, by nature of their non-guaranteed contracts, empower the players to hold out.

It's not that teams don't honor the contracts; that's the way the contracts are written.

Rock Chalk
09-11-2010, 06:22 AM
Completely on the owner's side on this one. When its commonplace for players to not honor their contract, even though they are making absolute millions, something is not right. I wonder how the NFL salaries compare to movies/Hollywood. At this point it is all just entertainment. The difference is Hollywood/movies don't cram it down our throat how much they make...

PLayers dont honor contracts but neither do owners.

You people act like players are just walking out but owners cut bait and run all the time.

NFL contracts should be gauranteed. This means personell will be more accountable for ****ups and players will be forced to play their contract or pay back their signing bonus.

Im tired of this hold out **** and Im tired of owners cutting players so they dont have to pay out the big roster bonus that was in the contract towards the end of a deal. ****ing shady **** that is.

Sign a contract, get that contract's worth, and do your ****ing job.

Hogan11
09-11-2010, 06:36 AM
All that finger stuff showed me was that there will be no NFL season in 2011. There's no way this is going to be resolved in the upcoming months.

Get your fix this season, because it's strictly college football & the UFL next year.

gunns
09-11-2010, 07:10 AM
All that finger stuff showed me was that there will be no NFL season in 2011. There's no way this is going to be resolved in the upcoming months.

Get your fix this season, because it's strictly college football & the UFL next year.

I think eventually, during the season, it will get fixed. Both sides will lose money and will see their money maker, the fan, moving away out of anger from their product. I think the owners have lied, to an extent, about their loss of money. I think the players have gotten greedy also although I can understand them wanting to protect their futures. I do not want to hear from players like Brady, Manning, etc., who are making an obscene amount of money. If you cannot protect your future with that you have no one to blame but yourself.

RhymesayersDU
09-11-2010, 07:13 AM
If any stoppage in play occurs, I will more than likely not watch another NFL game after that time.

Mike Vrabel was interviewed on Jim Rome yesterday, and he said in no uncertain terms that the fans will always come back. I believe that's what the players are banking on, the fact that most people will watch again like nothing ever happened. It was pretty interesting to hear him say that. I wish I could post the interview but it was a pretty candid line.

Mediator12
09-11-2010, 07:27 AM
Holy ****, must be 5.20am ... I'll adjust that ... need sleep ...:notworthy

Remembering the good ole days when Tags and Upshaw used to run the league ... Tags would convince the owners to shut up and take their money, Upshaw would do the same to players ... aaaaaaaaaahhhhh, good times!:wiggle:

Actually, it was those 2 who put us in this WHOLE situation with the ridiculous CBA they made!

The players are the ones who are in serious trouble and that is why this is such a big deal a whole year before the deadline. They are trying to win over the public perception in order to gain any form or semblance of leverage. Right now, they have absolutely no leverage and are panicking and resorting to guerilla Tactics.

The owners caved big time to give up such a huge portion of the pie to the players upon serious threats from Upshaw, who did not care one iota for the players who had made the NFL what it was today. There is no entertainment outlet that pays 60% of Gross Defined REVENUES except the NFL. Most are lucky to get Profit sharing, but GDR is a huge difference as teams were barely making 20 million in profit last year. Yes, that's right the players payroll was 6 times the profit margin for most teams.

And, 85% of those players who leave the game are insolvent from all their NFL earnings within 5 years of leaving the NFL. That means the players live so outside their means that they have nothing left for the future after 5 years in the league. You think the owners do not look at that and get pissed they are giving up the Lions share of Revenues to people who need handouts 5 years later? Please. They already spend about 2 million a year per team off the Revenues in programs to help players manage their lives better. Guess what, they still hang out in clubs and make it rain, they still get arrested, and they still blow all their money :welcome:

And, the Precious NFLPA barely even worked with the veterans who truly needed the money from the era where they did not get paid so much and are so injured and need benefits more than anyone else. Upshaw would not even get in the same room with those guys. Now, DeMaurice Smith is trying to reverese that major mistake with political gestures like this "we are one" business. It is the only thing they can do, because Upshaw totally screwed the owners in the last CBA. He threatened a work stoppage and decertification until they got paid. And, that did not include ANYTHING for the veterans who really needed the money.

The union is in MAJOR trouble and that is why they went after a darkhorse political candidate in Smith. Their only play is to influence public opinion and they cry like Babies when the tactics they used to secure the last CBA are being used against them! They are going to lose and lose badly in this one.

RhymesayersDU
09-11-2010, 07:34 AM
And, 85% of those players who leave the game are insolvent from all their NFL earnings within 5 years of leaving the NFL. That means the players live so outside their means that they have nothing left for the future after 5 years in the league. You think the owners do not look at that and get pissed they are giving up the Lions share of Revenues to people who need handouts 5 years later? Please. They already spend about 2 million a year per team off the Revenues in programs to help players manage their lives better. Guess what, they still hang out in clubs and make it rain, they still get arrested, and they still blow all their money :welcome:

I would disagree with this paragraph, specifically the bold part. I realize these guys make (and spend) a lot of money, but on principle alone I don't think any employer should judge how an employee spends their money. I wouldn't want my boss telling me how to spend my check. I realize that a lot of guys can't handle money and spend it all immediately. Those guys are stupid. But the owners have no right to be upset over how guys spend their money when off the field.

Mediator12
09-11-2010, 07:34 AM
PLayers dont honor contracts but neither do owners.

You people act like players are just walking out but owners cut bait and run all the time.

NFL contracts should be gauranteed. This means personell will be more accountable for ****ups and players will be forced to play their contract or pay back their signing bonus.

Im tired of this hold out **** and Im tired of owners cutting players so they dont have to pay out the big roster bonus that was in the contract towards the end of a deal. ****ing shady **** that is.

Sign a contract, get that contract's worth, and do your ****ing job.

The whole reason NFL contracts are so poorly constructed is Agents wanting to one up one another. NFL contracts should NEVER be gauranteed, because of the higher incidence of injury, but the NFPLA and agents have fought any middle ground because they get an immediate cut for Gauranteed money. That is the only real part of any NFL contract and its because agents are a ruthless bunch.

They talk their clients into ridiculous things so they can get paid. Instead of looking out for their clients true best interest, they get all lawyer like and become all or nothing for my guy. That is where the true adversarial nature of contracts comes from. The agents and NFLPA not wanting to appear soft. What they actually are though are money driven, instead of client driven.

theAPAOps5
09-11-2010, 07:41 AM
I thought the players doing that "one finger" thing before the game Thursday night was REALLY weird, so I looked up what it was about.
From the NFLPA website (http://www.nflplayers.com/Articles/Player-News/Kickoff-Message-From-All-NFL-Players-to-Our-Fans/):

Kickoff Message From All NFL Players to Our Fans
{ The Players of the National Football League will "stand as one" during the new season. }
Author: NFL Players AssociationPosted: 9/9/2010
KICKOFF MESSAGE FROM ALL NFL PLAYERS TO OUR FANS
We are men, and we are family men who love our country, our game and our fans.
As we face an uncertain future and the threat of being locked out of the game we love and rely on to provide for our families, we make to you this solemn promise:
To the Players who have come before us, fought and paid the price for pensions, health care and free agency—to men like John Mackey, Alan Page, Dan Marino, Freeman McNeil, Boomer Esiason, Reggie White and Kevin Mawae;
To the stadium workers, officers, businesses and everyone who gets their hands dirty working for this game;
To each and every player who risks everything for the thrill of this game;
To everyone who loves this game and lives as we do for kickoff;
And to the few who stand against us;
The Players and fans will STAND AS ONE.

- NFLPA Executive Committee: Charlie Batch, Drew Brees, Brian Dawkins, Domonique Foxworth, Scott Fujita, Sean Morey, Tony Richardson, Jeff Saturday, Mike Vrabel, Brian Waters & the Players of the National Football League.


--------------------


The Players and fans will STAND AS ONE. ... WTF? As a fan why the hell wasn't I asked who I supported before the millionaires assumed I was on their side?!?!

When the terminally stupid millionaires (players) can't come to an agreement, with the insanely greedy billionaires (owners), over how to share the proceeds from their $50,000,000,000 pie ... I don't think I give a flying f&#k!



Dear Mr Goodell, NFLPA, and NFL Owners,
Take note - I'm DONE with giving you my money.
If an item has an NFL tag on it, I WON'T buy it. Hats, t-shirts, jerseys ... I'm DONE with all of them, I already have a couple of each and I figure this should last me until I die. I like the old school stuff anyway, I don't want "Jonny New Kid"'s jersey, so he can get hurt or traded, as I contribute more money to the league and players. Screw you guys, I'm DONE.
I might buy a ticket to an NFL game in the future, and will still likely drink at a bar with the NFL ticket, because that's entirely for MY entertainment, but aside from that, DONE.

Good luck with the upcoming lock-out, call me when it's sorted out, ... I'll be engrossed in College Football (GO BIG RED!), so I might not notice, or care anymore.

As I raise my finger (middle) to you all, I wish you all the best. (Unlikely that you'll notice or care though)
GBDU

I actually side with the players. You know the owners can't even agree with what they want to negotiate about because they can't agree with one another. So the players may be locked out before even being able to negotiate.

Look a large number of players in the NFL are rich. But ALL the owners in the NFL are insanely rich!

Mediator12
09-11-2010, 07:49 AM
I would disagree with this paragraph, specifically the bold part. I realize these guys make (and spend) a lot of money, but on principle alone I don't think any employer should judge how an employee spends their money. I wouldn't want my boss telling me how to spend my check. I realize that a lot of guys can't handle money and spend it all immediately. Those guys are stupid. But the owners have no right to be upset over how guys spend their money when off the field.

The thing you are missing is how much they pay the players. The players keep wanting more and more for what they do, but then come back to the NFL after 5 years and want even more when they have blown it. What employee gets to come back to a company and demand more money and benefits after they have retired?

No matter how people want to look at this, the players are paid a lot of money to take the severe risks they take every day. 30 Years ago, the NFL was STILL not profitable. It was a prestigous ownership, not a money maker. In the last 20 years, the owners have put the cap system into place in order to make this business become profitable. Right now, their pissed the players make as much as they do and they are only making less than Peyton Manning does with his salary and endorsements. Players get to double dip there, but team revenues almost all go into that player pool of GDR.

So, while you might disagree with that paragragh on principle, it's still pretty true. The players have a very one sided agreement and the owners are tired of thier employees antics and spending habits....

Rohirrim
09-11-2010, 07:50 AM
Mike Vrabel was interviewed on Jim Rome yesterday, and he said in no uncertain terms that the fans will always come back. I believe that's what the players are banking on, the fact that most people will watch again like nothing ever happened. It was pretty interesting to hear him say that. I wish I could post the interview but it was a pretty candid line.

They're wrong. I grew up a rabid baseball fan, but after all their labor disputes and strikes and bs, the love for the game was extinguished in me. Now, I barely follow the game. Occasionally I'll go to a game or watch the playoffs, but it's nothing like the way I used to be. If you give fans the opportunity to find something else, they will. And once they do, don't assume they'll come back. Baseball's decline was caused by their own greed. Guys like me stopped talking to their kids about baseball. Instead of buying mitts and playing catch, I buy a football or a frisbee and we toss that around. Or I take them to the driving range with me. Kids stop learning the game. The game goes "Poof."

Rohirrim
09-11-2010, 07:53 AM
The thing you are missing is how much they pay the players. The players keep wanting more and more for what they do, but then come back to the NFL after 5 years and want even more when they have blown it. What employee gets to come back to a company and demand more money and benefits after they have retired?

No matter how people want to look at this, the players are paid a lot of money to take the severe risks they take every day. 30 Years ago, the NFL was STILL not profitable. It was a prestigous ownership, not a money maker. In the last 20 years, the owners have put the cap system into place in order to make this business become profitable. Right now, their pissed the players make as much as they do and they are only making less than Peyton Manning does with his salary and endorsements. Players get to double dip there, but team revenues almost all go into that player pool of GDR.

So, while you might disagree with that paragragh on principle, it's still pretty true. The players have a very one sided agreement and the owners are tired of thier employees antics and spending habits....

Not to mention paying top draft choices millions and millions of dollars, and you have no idea if they can even play in the NFL. That's why the #1 draft pick has become poison.

driver
09-11-2010, 08:00 AM
Tagliabue Goodell Good ol Days??? Better when Rosell ran the NFL and Foss Ran the AFL and their was compitition between the leagues and the Stooper Bowl actually meant something . Before the TV Exec's started running the league. In other words before the merger.

Mediator12
09-11-2010, 08:05 AM
Tagliabue Goodell Good ol Days??? Better when Rosell ran the NFL and Foss Ran the AFL and their was compitition between the leagues and the Stooper Bowl actually meant something . Before the TV Exec's started running the league. In other words before the merger.

No way. That was a crappy business model and a much tougher business than it is today.

rbackfactory80
09-11-2010, 10:27 AM
They're wrong. I grew up a rabid baseball fan, but after all their labor disputes and strikes and bs, the love for the game was extinguished in me. Now, I barely follow the game. Occasionally I'll go to a game or watch the playoffs, but it's nothing like the way I used to be. If you give fans the opportunity to find something else, they will. And once they do, don't assume they'll come back. Baseball's decline was caused by their own greed. Guys like me stopped talking to their kids about baseball. Instead of buying mitts and playing catch, I buy a football or a frisbee and we toss that around. Or I take them to the driving range with me. Kids stop learning the game. The game goes "Poof."

Not to mention hockey. Hockey used to be big and they totally damaged their product. If they don't get a deal done I will find something else to do with my Sundays, and maybe someday I will come back just not as involved as I have been.

Its funny because the hype and marketing that has drawn so much interest to the league has also caused the problems that are currently spawning. The NFL is currently as big as I have ever seen it and they should be careful with their decisions. If you asked fans of baseball during its golden days if it ever would downward spiral like it has they would have never believed it as possible. It happened to other sports it can also happen to football.

Steve Sewell
09-11-2010, 10:37 AM
I'm on the player's side on this one all the way. This ain't the NBA or MLB where the the career lifespan is much longer, and contracts are HUGE and guaranteed. NFL players play for the best league in the world and get peanuts compared to their counterparts. They need to get theirs when they can. If there's one thing, they absolutely have to do something about the rookie contract system. Thats the only ridiculous thing from the players side.

OBF1
09-11-2010, 11:23 AM
I'm on the player's side on this one all the way. This ain't the NBA or MLB where the the career lifespan is much longer, and contracts are HUGE and guaranteed. NFL players play for the best league in the world and get peanuts compared to their counterparts. They need to get theirs when they can. If there's one thing, they absolutely have to do something about the rookie contract system. Thats the only ridiculous thing from the players side.

Are you kidding me... What do you do for a living that the money NFL players are making is peanuts?

MLB play 162 games
NBA play 82 games
NFL play 16 games.

According to this, MLB players should earn 10x as much as NFL players

Top paid NBA players 2009/2010
1) Kevin Garnett 24.75 mil
2) Jermain O'neal/ Jason Kidd 21.37 mil
3) Kobe Bryant 21.26 mil
4) Shaq 21 mil

Top MLB
1) ARod 33 mil
2) Vernon Wells/Johan Santana 21 mil
3) Manny 20 mil

Top NFL (Paid out over past 12 months)
1) Eli Manning 39.9 mil
2) Terrell Suggs 38.3 mil
3) J Peppers 36 mil
4) P Rivers 32.1 mil

total of 13 players made over 20 million over the past year

Sewell, quit talking when you have no clue what you are saying

HEAV
09-11-2010, 11:23 AM
I've been saying it for months... Enjoy the 2010 season, Win or lose, because 2011 will be a lockout and a lost season.

misturanderson
09-11-2010, 11:25 AM
I'm on the player's side on this one all the way. This ain't the NBA or MLB where the the career lifespan is much longer, and contracts are HUGE and guaranteed. NFL players play for the best league in the world and get peanuts compared to their counterparts. They need to get theirs when they can. If there's one thing, they absolutely have to do something about the rookie contract system. Thats the only ridiculous thing from the players side.
They're going to need to start playing with much smaller rosters and play 80+ games per year if they think that what they do can possibly earn them as much as NBA and MLB players.

baja
09-11-2010, 11:34 AM
I think they should roll back and freeze ticket prices so the real fans can afford to go to games and base the new players contracts on those revenue numbers. The league is in danger of pricing itself out of the market, sure the players and owners would make less but this plan would save the league during these troubled times.

OBF1
09-11-2010, 11:35 AM
I've been saying it for months... Enjoy the 2010 season, Win or lose, because 2011 will be a lockout and a lost season.

NOT GOING TO HAPPEN....

this is starting to go around the net:

(KFFL) The NFLPA has started handing out voting cards to the players, which would allow the players to authorize a decertification of the union, reports Liz Mullen, of The Sports Business Journal. If the union decertifies, NFL teams could be prevented from locking players out when the CBA expires in March. If the union were to decertify, they would still act as a trade organization but cease to be a union. If the players were then locked out, under U.S. antitrust laws the NFLPA could sue the NFL and contend the league was conducting a group boycott, which is illegal. If they remained a union, they would not be able to sue the NFL. Members of the New Orleans Saints have already voted to authorize decertification. While the voting does not mean the NFLPA will decertify, it gives them the option to do so and use it as leverage against the NFL if the need arises. They also would want to decertify before the CBA expires, otherwise they would not be able to sue the NFL for six months. Furthermore, if the union decertifies, the NFL may sue the NFLPA and say they decertified as a "sham" to gain access to antitrust laws while still acting as a union.

Read this, then tell me how the owners can lock them out?

HEAV
09-11-2010, 11:47 AM
With the start of the NFL just one day away, NFLPA chief DeMaurice Smith is again warning fans of the possibility for a work stoppage next year.

"I still feel that a lockout is coming in March," Smith told Bloomberg News.

The collective bargaining agreement between the NFL and NFLPA expires after the 2010 season. The sides have been in negotiations, but remain far apart in talks.

Among the points of division are the total revenue the NFL accumulates. The union does not trust the NFL's revenue estimates and wants the league to open its financial books.

"If this model is not working, i.e. teams are losing money, then we're willing to see the evidence of that and make the changes," Smith told Bloomberg. "But prove it. If not, what's the justification for getting a billion back from us?"

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell said Wednesday on ESPN that the pressure on both sides to get a deal done will increase as the season churns along.

"There is really a window here," Goodell said. "Once we get to March, this becomes more difficult."

Why?

"When you don't have a system ... potentially you start getting loss of revenue," Goodell said. "When you have loss of revenue, there is less money for us to negotiate over. That's always a harder situation."

Smith has maintained that the owners are intent on locking out the players since prior to the Super Bowl, when he described the likelihood of a lockout as a "14" on a scale of 1 to 10.

HEAV
09-11-2010, 11:49 AM
NOT GOING TO HAPPEN....

this is starting to go around the net:

(KFFL) The NFLPA has started handing out voting cards to the players, which would allow the players to authorize a decertification of the union, reports Liz Mullen, of The Sports Business Journal. If the union decertifies, NFL teams could be prevented from locking players out when the CBA expires in March. If the union were to decertify, they would still act as a trade organization but cease to be a union. If the players were then locked out, under U.S. antitrust laws the NFLPA could sue the NFL and contend the league was conducting a group boycott, which is illegal. If they remained a union, they would not be able to sue the NFL. Members of the New Orleans Saints have already voted to authorize decertification. While the voting does not mean the NFLPA will decertify, it gives them the option to do so and use it as leverage against the NFL if the need arises. They also would want to decertify before the CBA expires, otherwise they would not be able to sue the NFL for six months. Furthermore, if the union decertifies, the NFL may sue the NFLPA and say they decertified as a "sham" to gain access to antitrust laws while still acting as a union.

Read this, then tell me how the owners can lock them out?


Furthermore, if the union decertifies, the NFL may sue the NFLPA and say they decertified as a "sham" to gain access to antitrust laws while still acting as a union.

That One Guy
09-11-2010, 12:18 PM
I think they should roll back and freeze ticket prices so the real fans can afford to go to games and base the new players contracts on those revenue numbers. The league is in danger of pricing itself out of the market, sure the players and owners would make less but this plan would save the league during these troubled times.

Thank all those idiots willing to throw their money down the drain to claim season ticket ownership - and then not even attend half the games. As long as there's a waiting list for season tickets, owners know they can increase prices regularly and folks will keep handing over the money.

Want to actually affect ticket prices? States need to enforce scalping laws (for those who have them) or people need to smarten up and stop paying so much for a fairly unenjoyable experience. The comforts and quality of home are going to make that a reality soon enough, I think. The NFL's answers to home comfort is that KangarooTV crap that they're buying into... ROFL!

That One Guy
09-11-2010, 12:24 PM
I'm on the player's side on this one all the way. This ain't the NBA or MLB where the the career lifespan is much longer, and contracts are HUGE and guaranteed. NFL players play for the best league in the world and get peanuts compared to their counterparts. They need to get theirs when they can. If there's one thing, they absolutely have to do something about the rookie contract system. Thats the only ridiculous thing from the players side.

Contracts aren't suddenly going to get bigger if they were all guarranteed. They wouldn't just take the contract and stamp guarranteed on it. Contract sizes would go down as they compensate for the lost leverage that owners used to have. Owners can give a little more now knowing that they can cut bait if the player doesn't work out. Force an owner to guarrantee that contract 5 years out and they'll be a lot more careful with their contracts. With the size of guarrantees increasing as fast as they are, players are on the path to an ideal situation if they'd just keep letting it build upon itself.

In reality, owners are the f'ing idiots in this case as you absolutely never see an owner stand their ground. We're finally seeing it in SD but when was the last time a player actually sat out a season? Owners always end up giving them the new contract or whatever. Also, when negotiating CBAs, the owners completely overlooked the lack of leverage they were leaving themselves with once they paid those big signing bonuses. Fines and whatnot have to be enough to actually force a player's hand and they charge something like 14K a day for TC. Whoop-dee-doo... some players will make almost 100 times that much in a single game.

Play2win
09-11-2010, 12:26 PM
Teams don't honor player contracts either. They have the right to cut a player and avoid paying all non-guaranteed money from that point forth. In all sports leagues with guaranteed contracts (NBA, MLB, etc.) you never have players holding out. The NFL owners, by nature of their non-guaranteed contracts, empower the players to hold out.

Of course.


But the way guaranteed money is written into every contract, and how the contracts have escalated, I would love the owners to play hardball. Its like wallstreet out there, let the NFL crash, and a period of equalization go on. Then, have contracts written for about 1 million/year, with only moderate amounts of guaranteed money. Then, maybe folks could go out to the game, hotdogs, and a beer or two without spending 3 C-notes (pipe dream-- I know...).

That One Guy
09-11-2010, 12:29 PM
Dear Mr Goodell, NFLPA, and NFL Owners,
Take note - I'm DONE with giving you my money.
If an item has an NFL tag on it, I WON'T buy it. Hats, t-shirts, jerseys ... I'm DONE with all of them, I already have a couple of each and I figure this should last me until I die. I like the old school stuff anyway, I don't want "Jonny New Kid"'s jersey, so he can get hurt or traded, as I contribute more money to the league and players. Screw you guys, I'm DONE.
I might buy a ticket to an NFL game in the future, and will still likely drink at a bar with the NFL ticket, because that's entirely for MY entertainment, but aside from that, DONE.



Where else in the world does a person pay so much to advertise for someone else? You often see T-shirts being given out by businesses at functions and whatnot as it has advertising built in but in the NFL, Get this!, You PAY THEM to allow you to market for them. T-shirts, jersey, etc should all be free (or close to cost in the worst of situations) but instead we'll pay 5x the price of the shirt for the team to ALLOW us to tell all of our friends that we're fans. Anyone that participates in such sillyness and then complains about how much money is being made should kick themselves.

That One Guy
09-11-2010, 12:35 PM
Serious question for you... Who's fault is it that a guy like Tatum Bell who not only got a college education (Free) made millions of dollars in the NFL had to work at a mall kiosk.

Is it the owners fault this guy spent his money like a drunk sailor in a whore house??? When do adults become responsible for their own actions and poor judgement???

I know community college graduates who have careers yet Tater comes from a solid school like OK ST (or OU?) and finds himself selling phones in a kiosk and someone wants us to feel sorry? Someone went wrong along the way in that case.

Antonio Bryant received enough money from the Bengals (without ever playing a game for them) that he could spend over 425 years living above the poverty level of a family of four. Just from money earned this year without playing a single game! When such money exists to be thrown around like that, I can't feel sorry for any person who makes it in the league.

Worst case scenario - they use their free college education and prosper in society. Best case scenario - they live like kings and for 3 or 4 generations their family doesn't have to worry about money.

SPfloppy
09-11-2010, 12:44 PM
NBC, Fox, ABC and CBS are all far larger than the NFL or the NFLPA. The networks may end up having alot of influence on a lockout or strike. On the plus side UFC, Pro wrestling, College Ball, the UFL(if it survives that long), the NBA and NHL all stand to do very well if the NFL isn't putting out a product to compete with next year

That One Guy
09-11-2010, 12:50 PM
This article just got posted on PFT and made me chuckle. Folks are willing to ride a bus an hour and a half each way (at least) and pay $25 to do it rather than go to the stadium.

Posted by Michael David Smith on September 11, 2010 1:11 PM ET
The Tampa Bay Buccaneers couldn't sell out their home opener. But a bus taking Tampa Bay fans to a bar outside the blackout zone will be full on Sunday.

Sunday's Bucs game didn't sell out within 72 hours before kickoff, which means it won't be shown on television within 75 miles of Tampa Bay. When the blackout was announced, the folks at JoeBucsFan.com decided to arrange for a 29-passenger luxury bus (http://www.joebucsfan.com/?page_id=32410) to take fans to Lee Roy Selmon's restaurant in Fort Myers, where the game will be shown. At $24.95, tickets for the blackout bus tour are already sold out.

So if you're going to get on a bus to go watch a football game, why not go to the stadium? Cost seems to be the main factor; as one fan who's choosing to buy a bus ticket rather than a Bucs ticket explained to the Tampa Tribune, at the stadium it's $25 just to park (http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/sep/11/na-fans-can-ride-bus-to-watch-game-on-tv/), let alone the ticket to the game. Another fan noted that a bar is more comfortable than sitting outside in the sweltering Florida heat.

Although the NFL is bringing in bigger TV audiences than ever before, several franchises are having a hard time filling their stadiums. Expect to hear a lot more stories of fans choosing to watch on TV instead of in person, even if they can't watch on TV from the comfort of home.

That One Guy
09-11-2010, 12:53 PM
NBC, Fox, ABC and CBS are all far larger than the NFL or the NFLPA. The networks may end up having alot of influence on a lockout or strike. On the plus side UFC, Pro wrestling, College Ball, the UFL(if it survives that long), the NBA and NHL all stand to do very well if the NFL isn't putting out a product to compete with next year

The Networks have to pay whether there's games or not and will get the money back gradually over time. They'll definitely have incentive to avoid the blackout but the extent of their reach is kinda unknown.

Also, imagine how much money would be lost on the NFLN if there were no games happening. NFLN, clothing revenue, presumably a Madden, etc... There's a lot of people aside from just players and owners who are going to be affected if no games happen.

OBF1
09-11-2010, 01:10 PM
This article just got posted on PFT and made me chuckle. Folks are willing to ride a bus an hour and a half each way (at least) and pay $25 to do it rather than go to the stadium.

Posted by Michael David Smith on September 11, 2010 1:11 PM ET
The Tampa Bay Buccaneers couldn't sell out their home opener. But a bus taking Tampa Bay fans to a bar outside the blackout zone will be full on Sunday.

Sunday's Bucs game didn't sell out within 72 hours before kickoff, which means it won't be shown on television within 75 miles of Tampa Bay. When the blackout was announced, the folks at JoeBucsFan.com decided to arrange for a 29-passenger luxury bus (http://www.joebucsfan.com/?page_id=32410) to take fans to Lee Roy Selmon's restaurant in Fort Myers, where the game will be shown. At $24.95, tickets for the blackout bus tour are already sold out.

So if you're going to get on a bus to go watch a football game, why not go to the stadium? Cost seems to be the main factor; as one fan who's choosing to buy a bus ticket rather than a Bucs ticket explained to the Tampa Tribune, at the stadium it's $25 just to park (http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/sep/11/na-fans-can-ride-bus-to-watch-game-on-tv/), let alone the ticket to the game. Another fan noted that a bar is more comfortable than sitting outside in the sweltering Florida heat.

Although the NFL is bringing in bigger TV audiences than ever before, several franchises are having a hard time filling their stadiums. Expect to hear a lot more stories of fans choosing to watch on TV instead of in person, even if they can't watch on TV from the comfort of home.



Hummmm Let me take a stab at this....

Stadium holds 65,890 people, hot and bad team at who knows how much $$$

VS

Party bus seating a whopping 29 people, eating at all time Tampa bay legend Lee Roy Selmons restaurant while watching the game for only $25.00.. and maybe even Mr Selmon being at said restaurant.

Add Elway to the name above and I would be all over it.

baja
09-11-2010, 01:24 PM
rediscover market value and issue contracts accordingly

Play2win
09-11-2010, 01:34 PM
rediscover market value and issue contracts accordingly

exactly. It might take a "Crash" and a period of equalization, though.

But, I completely agree.


Vrable and others might find the fans might not always come back, regardless of the brand (and the product).





Maybe folks will get their football fix from the college game...

Mediator12
09-11-2010, 02:04 PM
rediscover market value and issue contracts accordingly

I hate the disparity between the haves and have not's in the NFL. Manning and Brady make 50 times more than some veterans when you look at their total Pay and endorsements. This is what the union should try and be fixing instead of trying to keep an outrageously one sided deal they got from a threatened work stoppage.

Wait, now they are crying about being "locked Out" :kiddingme

Hogan11
09-11-2010, 03:49 PM
NBC, Fox, ABC and CBS are all far larger than the NFL or the NFLPA. The networks may end up having alot of influence on a lockout or strike. On the plus side UFC, Pro wrestling, College Ball, the UFL(if it survives that long), the NBA and NHL all stand to do very well if the NFL isn't putting out a product to compete with next year

The UFL is banking on a strike happening and I believe I heard the NFLPA has already advised the players they can play in the UFL if they so choose in the event of any strike/lockout. (I'm still searching for the link to back this BTW)

In any case, I'm not optimistic that the dispute will be resolved in time to save an infringment upon the 2011 season, though I remain hopeful.

That One Guy
09-11-2010, 04:37 PM
Hummmm Let me take a stab at this....

Stadium holds 65,890 people, hot and bad team at who knows how much $$$

VS

Party bus seating a whopping 29 people, eating at all time Tampa bay legend Lee Roy Selmons restaurant while watching the game for only $25.00.. and maybe even Mr Selmon being at said restaurant.

Add Elway to the name above and I would be all over it.

I absolutely agree. Just saying those same people could've come pretty close to spending the same money and watching the game in the stadium. The time is coming when folks realize gameday isn't worth $75 per ticket and prices start to come back to earth.

Dudeskey
09-11-2010, 04:52 PM
One way to get ticket prices back down is through the TV revenue side. If there's a blackout,that team forfeits the TV money. No Broadcast, no revenue for you. This could force owners to slash prices to spur ticket sales. I'm sure networks wouldn't have a problem with not paying in the event of a blackout. So until the TV contracts change, the owners won't give a **** how much fans are being charged for tickets.

That One Guy
09-11-2010, 04:59 PM
One way to get ticket prices back down is through the TV revenue side. If there's a blackout,that team forfeits the TV money. No Broadcast, no revenue for you. This could force owners to slash prices to spur ticket sales. I'm sure networks wouldn't have a problem with not paying in the event of a blackout. So until the TV contracts change, the owners won't give a **** how much fans are being charged for tickets.

Is that actually true? Isn't the system way more complex than that? I'd think through either a revenue pooling or outright all for one negotiation of TV rights, a team generally wouldn't even notice lost money due to a blackout.

If that were actually the case, either the NFL would change the blackout rules or they'd regularly buy any remaining tickets. Some revenue is better than none.

Drek
09-11-2010, 05:21 PM
Of course.


But the way guaranteed money is written into every contract, and how the contracts have escalated, I would love the owners to play hardball. Its like wallstreet out there, let the NFL crash, and a period of equalization go on. Then, have contracts written for about 1 million/year, with only moderate amounts of guaranteed money. Then, maybe folks could go out to the game, hotdogs, and a beer or two without spending 3 C-notes (pipe dream-- I know...).

Please.

Player contracts and stadium pricing are about as related as global warming and the world pirate population. Owners price stadium tickets, concessions, etc. based on what fans will pay, nothing more. They aim to make as much revenue as possible off the fans. Until stadiums stop selling beer, hot dogs, and tickets prices won't be coming down.

Owners negotiated for non-guaranteed contracts. Players negotiated for the right to hold out if they were unhappy with their contract. No one throws a fit when a team cuts a player before his contract is over, so why when a player holds out? It is his contractual right.

driver
09-11-2010, 06:25 PM
No way. That was a crappy business model and a much tougher business than it is today.

SOOO? A crappy business model?? Football used to be a sporting contest between 2 teams, not an opportunity to cramm 30 minutes of advertisemnets into 1 hour of programming. The defenses now are sacraficial goats for offenses to lay a butt kicking on thanks to the tv people running the compitition commitee. I loved football, not stupid specticles like the super bowl has become.

Steve Sewell
09-11-2010, 06:47 PM
Are you kidding me... What do you do for a living that the money NFL players are making is peanuts?

MLB play 162 games
NBA play 82 games
NFL play 16 games.

According to this, MLB players should earn 10x as much as NFL players

Top paid NBA players 2009/2010
1) Kevin Garnett 24.75 mil
2) Jermain O'neal/ Jason Kidd 21.37 mil
3) Kobe Bryant 21.26 mil
4) Shaq 21 mil

Top MLB
1) ARod 33 mil
2) Vernon Wells/Johan Santana 21 mil
3) Manny 20 mil

Top NFL (Paid out over past 12 months)
1) Eli Manning 39.9 mil
2) Terrell Suggs 38.3 mil
3) J Peppers 36 mil
4) P Rivers 32.1 mil

total of 13 players made over 20 million over the past year

Sewell, quit talking when you have no clue what you are saying

Average MLB salary: $3,297,828 GUARANTEED
Average NBA salary: $5 million + GUARANTEED
Average NFL salary: $1.5 million NOT GUARANTEED (unless you are an elite player who can command a large signing bonus)

Figure in the physical toll that these respective sports take on their players...comparing season lengths is just idiotic. I'm not going to even bother to compare average career lengths.

But you keep talking about how I have no clue. The "average" NFL player is just completely exposed both physically and financially, while the "average" NBA and MLB player is doing much, much better.

Cito Pelon
09-11-2010, 08:57 PM
My opinion is the owners took a hit with the current CBA, now the union has to compromise some. I seriously doubt the owners are out to totally screw over the union.

NUB
09-12-2010, 01:36 AM
Serious question for you... Who's fault is it that a guy like Tatum Bell who not only got a college education (Free) made millions of dollars in the NFL had to work at a mall kiosk.

Is it the owners fault this guy spent his money like a drunk sailor in a whore house??? When do adults become responsible for their own actions and poor judgement???

It was an observation on what becomes of many players, not what they do or do not deserve.

cutthemdown
09-12-2010, 04:16 AM
You can't argue that the Players are the NFL's product, and where the hell did I present a business model? The only thing I posted was a hypothetical question. Do I need to pull my dictionary out for you, or are you good with that one?

First of all the brand does matter. In marketing brand is everything. So right off the bat NFL means mountains more then any other league could muster. Plus without the brand TV would be reticent to give a huge deal making it tough for any new league to pay the players more. Your idea that the players are the product has some merit, but your reasoning after that flawed I think.