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Rohirrim
08-12-2010, 01:50 PM
Sounds like a must-see documentary. I didn't know anything about the correspondence from Tillman's dad. Here's an excerpt:

"You are a General," Tillman's father writes Jones after being presented with a briefing book of his findings. "There is no way a man like you, with your intelligence, education, military, experience, responsibilities (primarily for difficult situations), and rank... believes the conclusions reached in the March 31, 2005 Briefing Book. But your signature is on it. I assume, therefore, that you are part of this shameless bull****. I embarrassed myself by treating you with respect [on] March 31, 2005. I thought your rank deserved it and anticipated something different from the new and improved investigation. I won't act so hypocritically if we meet again."

"In sum: **** you... and yours."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/12/pat-tillmans-father-to-ar_n_680128.html

Chris
08-12-2010, 01:51 PM
My brother saw this at Cannes (film student program) and said it was unfrickinbelievable.

epicSocialism4tw
08-12-2010, 02:15 PM
Shouldnt this be in the politics forum?

epicSocialism4tw
08-12-2010, 02:16 PM
My brother saw this at Cannes (film student program) and said it was unfrickinbelievable.

Nothing produced by Hollywood is "unfrickinbelievable" because you are getting a bunch of garbage amplified in an echo chamber.

SonOfLe-loLang
08-12-2010, 02:23 PM
Nothing produced by Hollywood is "unfrickinbelievable" because you are getting a bunch of garbage amplified in an echo chamber.

1) Its a documentary
2) It was obviously done independently if Weinstein bought it.

Los Broncos
08-12-2010, 02:29 PM
Wow sounds awesome, I will for sure watch this.

Rohirrim
08-12-2010, 02:35 PM
Shouldnt this be in the politics forum?

Shouldn't you stop sniveling all over the board?

If I remember correctly, Tillman was a professional football player in the NFL.

Rohirrim
08-12-2010, 02:36 PM
Nothing produced by Hollywood is "unfrickinbelievable" because you are getting a bunch of garbage amplified in an echo chamber.

You don't even have to see the film to have a knee-jerk reaction. Pathetic.

epicSocialism4tw
08-12-2010, 02:39 PM
You don't even have to see the film to have a knee-jerk reaction. Pathetic.

:spit:

Yeah...I'm sure that this is an impartial "documentary".

You do realize that these are made with a purpose in mind, right?

bronclvr
08-12-2010, 02:40 PM
You know, that is the one thing I still remember about Jake-the class that he showed about Tillman-what a tragic story though-

Rohirrim
08-12-2010, 02:42 PM
:spit:

Yeah...I'm sure that this is an impartial "documentary".

You do realize that these are made with a purpose in mind, right?

Having not seen it yet I have no information upon which to base a judgment, and neither do you.

But that doesn't stop you, does it?

Rohirrim
08-12-2010, 02:44 PM
This is the write-up from the Sundance Festival:

Pat Tillman gave up his professional football career to join the Army Rangers in 2002—and became an instant symbol of patriotic fervor and unflinching duty. But the truth about Pat Tillman is far more complex, and ultimately more heroic, than the caricature created by the media. And when the government tried to turn his death into war propaganda, they took on the wrong family. From her home in the Santa Cruz mountains, Pat’s mother, Dannie Tillman, led the family’s crusade to reveal the truth beneath the mythology of their son’s life and death.

Featuring candid and revelatory interviews with Pat's fellow soldiers as well as his family, Amir Bar-Lev’s emotional and insightful film not only shines a light on the shady aftermath of Pat’s death and calls to task the entire chain of command but also examines themes as timeless as the notion of heroism itself.

epicSocialism4tw
08-12-2010, 02:47 PM
Having not seen it yet I have no information upon which to base a judgment, and neither do you.

But that doesn't stop you, does it?

Yeah...that write up sounds like its definitely giving the military a fair shake. Ha!

What a loon. If your brain is so fried that you cannot discern the message that the writers and producers of a movie are trying to convey through their product, then you are worse off than I realized.

Rohirrim
08-12-2010, 02:48 PM
Yeah...that write up sounds like its definitely giving the military a fair shake. Ha!

What a loon. If your brain is so fried that you cannot discern the message that the writers and producers of a movie are trying to convey through their product, then you are worse off than I realized.

Well, I generally wait until I've seen the product, loon that I am.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
08-12-2010, 02:52 PM
:spit:

Yeah...I'm sure that this is an impartial "documentary".

You do realize that these are made with a purpose in mind, right?

You're right. I'm sure the Tillman family is completely "impartial" to what happened to their ****ing son.

Christ, you are a ****ing retard.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
08-12-2010, 02:53 PM
This is the write-up from the Sundance Festival:

Pat Tillman gave up his professional football career to join the Army Rangers in 2002óand became an instant symbol of patriotic fervor and unflinching duty. But the truth about Pat Tillman is far more complex, and ultimately more heroic, than the caricature created by the media. And when the government tried to turn his death into war propaganda, they took on the wrong family. From her home in the Santa Cruz mountains, Patís mother, Dannie Tillman, led the familyís crusade to reveal the truth beneath the mythology of their sonís life and death.

Featuring candid and revelatory interviews with Pat's fellow soldiers as well as his family, Amir Bar-Levís emotional and insightful film not only shines a light on the shady aftermath of Patís death and calls to task the entire chain of command but also examines themes as timeless as the notion of heroism itself.

Are the Tillmans from Hollywood? Sure seems like they have an ax to grind, and McStupid told me that the only reason anyone would ever say anything negative about the military is if they're from Hollywood.

Rohirrim
08-12-2010, 02:54 PM
Are the Tillmans from Hollywood? Sure seems like they have an ax to grind, and McStupid told me that the only reason anyone would ever say anything negative about the military is if they're from Hollywood.

If you are asking me to explain the "logic" of the Drama Llama, I'm afraid that's beyond my pay grade.

That One Guy
08-12-2010, 02:56 PM
I've known a few different people that actually ran into or worked alongside him.

If they don't convey him as a complete asshole, they're not giving the full truth. Just keep that in mind.

We all know it'll create more drama if he's a saint and the military is the devil. Does anyone expect anything else? Are documentaries supposed to be biased?

epicSocialism4tw
08-12-2010, 02:58 PM
Well, I generally wait until I've seen the product, loon that I am.

Let me break it down into small, simple pieces for you.

at Tillman gave up his professional football career to join the Army Rangers in 2002óand became an instant symbol of patriotic fervor and unflinching duty. But the truth about Pat Tillman is far more complex, and ultimately more heroic, than the caricature created by the media.

Oh, so Pat Tillman's patriotic heroism was only a product of media spin. His "true" (the producers' interpretation of) heroism is much cooler.

And when the government tried to turn his death into war propaganda, they took on the wrong family. From her home in the Santa Cruz mountains, Patís mother, Dannie Tillman, led the familyís crusade to reveal the truth beneath the mythology of their sonís life and death.

Featuring candid and revelatory interviews with Pat's fellow soldiers as well as his family, Amir Bar-Levís emotional and insightful film not only shines a light on the shady aftermath of Patís death and calls to task the entire chain of command but also examines themes as timeless as the notion of heroism

Yep. The military is evil. Pat Tillmans parents are saints. Amir's film tells us the absolute truth about the military chain of command, doesnt it. Considering he spent all that time in the military, right? I would expect him to be an expert on the subject.

He may have some insight into heroism since he is a storymaker, but his role in this movie is to change it from someone who fights for their country into someone who fights against an evil imperialist regime (the US).

So enlightening. ::)

SonOfLe-loLang
08-12-2010, 03:31 PM
Let me break it down into small, simple pieces for you.



Oh, so Pat Tillman's patriotic heroism was only a product of media spin. His "true" (the producers' interpretation of) heroism is much cooler.





Yep. The military is evil. Pat Tillmans parents are saints. Amir's film tells us the absolute truth about the military chain of command, doesnt it. Considering he spent all that time in the military, right? I would expect him to be an expert on the subject.

He may have some insight into heroism since he is a storymaker, but his role in this movie is to change it from someone who fights for their country into someone who fights against an evil imperialist regime (the US).

So enlightening. ::)

Why do you assume the military is infallible. They **** up all the time. They are politically machine as well and will often spin their efforts. Whats your beef?

Chris
08-12-2010, 03:35 PM
I've known a few different people that actually ran into or worked alongside him.

If they don't convey him as a complete a-hole, they're not giving the full truth. Just keep that in mind.

We all know it'll create more drama if he's a saint and the military is the devil. Does anyone expect anything else? Are documentaries supposed to be biased?

What does his being an "a-hole" have to do with the crux of the film? That is - his death and his family's search for the truth.

epicSocialism4tw
08-12-2010, 03:35 PM
Why do you assume the military is infallible. They **** up all the time. They are politically machine as well and will often spin their efforts. Whats your beef?

This is well-known.

My beef was with the description of the film as an unbiased documentary, which is clearly a lie.

Chris
08-12-2010, 03:36 PM
Every documentary is biased. Some more so than others. I don't know enough about the film to comment either way - do you?

epicSocialism4tw
08-12-2010, 03:39 PM
Every documentary is biased. Some more so than others. I don't know enough about the film to comment either way - do you?

Yes.

You can discern the entire purpose of the film for yourself simply by reading information here:

http://tillmanstory.com/site/

orangemonkey
08-12-2010, 03:45 PM
Can't wait. Looks fantastic!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
08-12-2010, 03:54 PM
Yes.

You can discern the entire purpose of the film for yourself simply by reading information here:

http://tillmanstory.com/site/

Are you going to see this movie?

UberBroncoMan
08-12-2010, 04:20 PM
The army ****ed up big time with this. Just should have come out with the truth right away. He was killed by friendly fire. It was a pathetic miss-communication. Nothing we can say or do can bring Pat back. The End. Sucks to be the parents, but they've also gone a bit far themselves with this whole ordeal. Especially profiting off of his death and image (IRONY). Both sides fail.

Rohirrim
08-12-2010, 05:56 PM
Are you going to see this movie?

I don't think he needs to actually see it. He already knows what it's all about. Besides his many degrees and numerous fields of expertise, the drama llama also happens to be clairvoyant.

Anyway, those who simply want to issue blind, unquestioned support for the military should keep in mind this story: http://www.nytimes.com/1990/05/27/us/their-hearts-said-navy-erred-about-iowa-blast.html

One thing you learn in the Army, the **** always flows downhill.

OBF1
08-12-2010, 06:02 PM
Just like Titanic.... I already know how it ends, why spend the money???

StugotsIII
08-12-2010, 06:24 PM
Shouldn't you stop sniveling all over the board?

If I remember correctly, Tillman was a professional football player in the NFL.

Did he play for Denver?

No?

Then move it out of the Bronco board.

StugotsIII
08-12-2010, 06:25 PM
I don't think he needs to actually see it. He already knows what it's all about. Besides his many degrees and numerous fields of expertise, the drama llama also happens to be clairvoyant.

Anyway, those who simply want to issue blind, unquestioned support for the military should keep in mind this story: http://www.nytimes.com/1990/05/27/us/their-hearts-said-navy-erred-about-iowa-blast.html

One thing you learn in the Army, the **** always flows downhill.

...and this whole little tiff you two are having is exactly why this needs to be moved the hell out of here.

Dedhed
08-12-2010, 06:27 PM
:spit:

Yeah...I'm sure that this is an impartial "documentary".

You do realize that these are made with a purpose in mind, right?

To point to out something that clearly gets your panties in a bunch.

Rohirrim
08-12-2010, 06:30 PM
...and this whole little tiff you two are having is exactly why this needs to be moved the hell out of here.

Sorry that you were forced into this thread.

StugotsIII
08-12-2010, 06:34 PM
Sorry that you were forced into this thread.



Dude, you knew what you were doing when you posted this bullsh** here and not the political thread.


You knew more people would read it here...so that's why you broke the rules.


You are an internet troll...nothing more.

Dedhed
08-12-2010, 06:36 PM
The army ****ed up big time with this. Just should have come out with the truth right away. He was killed by friendly fire. It was a pathetic miss-communication. Nothing we can say or do can bring Pat back. The End. Sucks to be the parents, but they've also gone a bit far themselves with this whole ordeal. Especially profiting off of his death and image (IRONY). Both sides fail.

I think the point of the film is to bring this post to light for more than a handful of people who were engaged from the beginning.

Rohirrim
08-12-2010, 06:44 PM
Dude, you knew what you were doing when you posted this bullsh** here and not the political thread.


You knew more people would read it here...so that's why you broke the rules.


You are an internet troll...nothing more.

Afraid I don't even know you. Don't know the origin of your obviously deep issues here, either. Hope you find a way to deal with it.

watermock
08-12-2010, 06:46 PM
Tillman was a victim of actually assuming the military knew what the **** the mission was over in that craphole.

Dedhed
08-12-2010, 06:50 PM
Dude, you knew what you were doing when you posted this bullsh** here and not the political thread.


You knew more people would read it here...so that's why you broke the rules.


You are an internet troll...nothing more.
I didn't see you posting like this in threads like:
"Need Tech Help"
"Hilairious looking movie"
"Can Anyone justify this"
"This is a must see"

That One Guy
08-12-2010, 08:24 PM
What does his being an "a-hole" have to do with the crux of the film? That is - his death and his family's search for the truth.

I was just saying that without having seen so much as a trailer, I can tell you what it's going to be. Tillman is going to be the hero of all heroes and a man General George Washington himself should bow down to. The military is going to be an organization boiling over with self-serving backstabbers who did everything possible to make his family's life ever more miserable by denying them the truth.

There's an assumption of ignorant viewers that documentaries are unbiased reports of the facts but, undoubtedly, this will be about as unbiased as any Michael Moore movie.

My statement of him being an a-hole was just saying that this is almost unanimously agreed upon by people who knew him. His brother is supposedly an amazing soldier but Pat was an a-hole throwing $15,000 parties in the barracks, throwing his money and fame around, and generally being a nuisance for all of those he worked for. What do you think the odds are that they include THAT in his "hero" profile?

Boobs McGee
08-12-2010, 08:37 PM
I didn't see you posting like this in threads like:
"Need Tech Help"
"Hilairious looking movie"
"Can Anyone justify this"
"This is a must see"

holy **** I just read through this douchenozzle's post history...I honestly can't find ANY solid contributions. Just a bunch of worthless drivel coming from an emotionally starved little closet racist. I REALLY want to use my ignore button (never put anyone on the list), but it's like watching a train wreck in slow motion. I can't turn away.

Rohirrim
08-12-2010, 08:40 PM
I was just saying that without having seen so much as a trailer, I can tell you what it's going to be. Tillman is going to be the hero of all heroes and a man General George Washington himself should bow down to. The military is going to be an organization boiling over with self-serving backstabbers who did everything possible to make his family's life ever more miserable by denying them the truth.

There's an assumption of ignorant viewers that documentaries are unbiased reports of the facts but, undoubtedly, this will be about as unbiased as any Michael Moore movie.

My statement of him being an a-hole was just saying that this is almost unanimously agreed upon by people who knew him. His brother is supposedly an amazing soldier but Pat was an a-hole throwing $15,000 parties in the barracks, throwing his money and fame around, and generally being a nuisance for all of those he worked for. What do you think the odds are that they include THAT in his "hero" profile?

Even if that's true, that doesn't change the fact that the man gave up a lucrative football career to serve his country first. It seems that when Tillman was first killed and the mythology was being built up around him, everybody revered him as a hero. Then, when excerpts of his diary came out and it was revealed that maybe he was opposed to the administration, wasn't much of a Christian, and didn't toe the party line, suddenly he became a scuzbag. Maybe that's the "myth" of heroism that the filmmakers will explore?

Requiem
08-12-2010, 08:49 PM
Ro, don't worry about Stugots. Apparently he loves The Sopranos.

That One Guy
08-12-2010, 09:49 PM
Even if that's true, that doesn't change the fact that the man gave up a lucrative football career to serve his country first. It seems that when Tillman was first killed and the mythology was being built up around him, everybody revered him as a hero. Then, when excerpts of his diary came out and it was revealed that maybe he was opposed to the administration, wasn't much of a Christian, and didn't toe the party line, suddenly he became a scuzbag. Maybe that's the "myth" of heroism that the filmmakers will explore?

To be honest, the media coverage of him is probably the only reason I'm vocal about my stance on it. All you ever hear about him is how much of a hero he was, how he gave up so much money to go fight, etc but by all accounts he was just a bad person to be around. If they have so much media time, tell us about the good people that gave all rather than continue to linger on how much of a hero this a-hole was.

Soldiers are known for their loyalty to each other. This guy was self-absorbed, by all accounts. Maybe the stories are all jealousy, we'll never know... but I just hate it being Pat Tillman and everyone else when they all gave what millions of dollars can't even buy back.

Chris
08-12-2010, 09:50 PM
Gonna have to side with Rohirrim on this. It's a movie that's coming out that he found interesting enough to share. At no point did it appear to me that he posted this to rub in anyone's face. Mcskillet was the one who reacted so strongly and politicised it.

Anyways... I'm not here to argue with any of you (though I highly doubt anything could be as biased as a Michael Moore film).

Miss I.
08-12-2010, 10:47 PM
A few points before I get out of here:
1. Aren't we still in offseason mode? so anything can be posted in the main board at the moment.
2. There are other threads not relating to the Broncos in here that are about Brett Favre, around the NFL, the hawtness of some female sports announcer (a thread I find a bit sexist and stupid, but whatever) so why shouldn't this be in here. It is football related because Pat Tillman played in the NFL and nothing says everything has to be Bronco related, particularly in off season.
3. Documentaries - To McSkillet, please point out where the description said "unbiased". I didn't see it, but if I missed it please do point it out. I think you, as do others, assume documentary means unbiased. Every piece of media (film, print, etc) is told from someone's perspective and supports a particular argument. The key to any good documentary is to have reliable sources to support the argument, not that it is unbiased. Being unbiased is not possible, but having reliable supporting evidence or sources is.

That said, regardless, it looks interesting. I've always been a bit curious about it and I am aware of the various discussions about Tillman and in particular his tie to the Broncos via Jake Plummer. He may not have been a perfect guy in someone's eyes, nobody is, but I do believe he gave his life for his country when he didn't have to and for that he deserves credit. If the army is wrong they should step up and admit it and fix it so they can avoid future situations as much as possible. At any rate, it's one perspective about the situation and if other perspectives want a film made on the topic, they should make their own film.

Bronco Yoda
08-12-2010, 11:18 PM
On my to do/watch list.

Blart
08-13-2010, 01:37 AM
I won't be seeing this movie, either.

The military doesn't lie. Propaganda is truth. Skepticism is for lunatics.

gunns
08-13-2010, 05:15 AM
Dude, you knew what you were doing when you posted this bullsh** here and not the political thread.


You knew more people would read it here...so that's why you broke the rules.


You are an internet troll...nothing more.

Broke the rules? When did TJ post that off season mode was over? The "more people" included you didn't it. I'm sorry but when I read the title I kind of knew what it referred to....a movie about Pat Tillman. If you want to compare bunched panties, talk with Skillet, he made it a political bashing.

I really think this guy is sixtimeseight or a close relation.

azbroncfan
08-13-2010, 05:19 AM
Shouldnt this be in the politics forum?

About as much as the soccer thread shouldn't ever be on main forum.

Rohirrim
08-13-2010, 09:49 AM
Gonna have to side with Rohirrim on this. It's a movie that's coming out that he found interesting enough to share. At no point did it appear to me that he posted this to rub in anyone's face. Mcskillet was the one who reacted so strongly and politicised it.

Anyways... I'm not here to argue with any of you (though I highly doubt anything could be as biased as a Michael Moore film).

Actually, I was kind of surprised by the reaction. I'm more interested in the story because of the mystery behind it. I want to know what really happened, before, and after the fact.

And I'm surprised that you would accuse Michael Moore of bias.




I kid. ;D

edgemyster
08-13-2010, 10:10 AM
I went to school with him for 6 years. Played on the same football team as him for 4 (Leland HS, San Jose, CA). He was outspoken, blunt and frank in his opinions at times, and sometimes people don't want to hear the truth, but he wasn't an a-hole in the negative sense I see people portraying him - at least not during that stretch. Instead he existed as one of the more interesting and unique characters from that time in my life.

FWIW, there is a trailer: http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/weinstein/thetillmanstory/

TailgateNut
08-13-2010, 10:17 AM
Did he play for Denver?

No?

Then move it out of the Bronco board.

Hilarious!

Rohirrim
08-13-2010, 11:39 AM
I went to school with him for 6 years. Played on the same football team as him for 4 (Leland HS, San Jose, CA). He was outspoken, blunt and frank in his opinions at times, and sometimes people don't want to hear the truth, but he wasn't an a-hole in the negative sense I see people portraying him - at least not during that stretch. Instead he existed as one of the more interesting and unique characters from that time in my life.

FWIW, there is a trailer: http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/weinstein/thetillmanstory/

That's what I mean. For some reason there was suddenly a move to publicly demonize the guy. The Navy pulled this crap before, blaming the blown up turret on the Iowa on some poor, dead sailor and publicly turning him into a suicidal homosexual, none of which turned out to be true.

shaunroach
08-13-2010, 01:21 PM
My statement of him being an a-hole was just saying that this is almost unanimously agreed upon by people who knew him. His brother is supposedly an amazing soldier but Pat was an a-hole throwing $15,000 parties in the barracks, throwing his money and fame around, and generally being a nuisance for all of those he worked for. What do you think the odds are that they include THAT in his "hero" profile?

Do you have a source for this? I'm reading the Krakauer book about him now and it says he did everything he could to avoid the extra attention from being an NFL player.

broncocalijohn
08-13-2010, 04:16 PM
Just like Titanic.... I already know how it ends, why spend the money???

Then why see any movie made from a book you read? You dont or wont know every detail. This is from another point of view or same with more details.

I cant believe Drama Llama just assumes the worst. Hey, there is a thing called "friendly fire" that happens in every war. Military is very good part of our government but it screws up too.

Jason7730
08-13-2010, 04:46 PM
Really, how can someone bash a guy who quits a job that he loves where he gets paid millions to sign up and serve his country? He gave his own life in service to his country. Anyone can be an asshole from time to time. I have great respect for him. How some people can turn it around and make it out like he is the bad guy is beyond me. These types probably never served their country in a combat zone, imo.

Chris
08-13-2010, 10:42 PM
It's not about the truth. We know the truth. It's about the search for truth and what that tells us.

That One Guy
08-14-2010, 04:08 PM
Do you have a source for this? I'm reading the Krakauer book about him now and it says he did everything he could to avoid the extra attention from being an NFL player.

I've run into a few people who worked with him in the Rangers but no sworn testimony or anything.

That One Guy
08-14-2010, 04:12 PM
Really, how can someone bash a guy who quits a job that he loves where he gets paid millions to sign up and serve his country? He gave his own life in service to his country. Anyone can be an a-hole from time to time. I have great respect for him. How some people can turn it around and make it out like he is the bad guy is beyond me. These types probably never served their country in a combat zone, imo.

Since I was one of the first to bash, I'll take this as a shot on me. I spent two years in Iraq. I've known good men who chose to serve and never got to return to their familes. A friend was killed by an IED in south Baghdad while I was home on leave with my wife who was expecting. He never got to see his baby. He had been married less than two months before leaving.

Is money really anything more on that scale?

Jason7730
08-14-2010, 04:42 PM
Well, I guess you think he is a bad guy. I don't. I think it shows high character on his part to quit a job that he liked to serve his country. In his mind it was the more important to serve his country than to make big bank. I guess there are always going to be haters.

Jason7730
08-14-2010, 04:44 PM
BTW, I also lost friends when I served in Iraq. It is really sad that not everybody gets to make it back to their families. Thanks for your service, man.

DarkHorse30
08-14-2010, 06:35 PM
The army ****ed up big time with this. Just should have come out with the truth right away. He was killed by friendly fire. It was a pathetic miss-communication. Nothing we can say or do can bring Pat back. The End. Sucks to be the parents, but they've also gone a bit far themselves with this whole ordeal. Especially profiting off of his death and image (IRONY). Both sides fail.

this. I doubt Tilman would have wanted this charade from both sides. I won't watch it.....I don't do reality TV either......except of course "wipeout"

Pseudofool
08-14-2010, 06:54 PM
Whether or not Tillman was a hero or a douchebag is beside the point. I'm sure his choices to leave football and go to war weren't entirely pure (can one ever set out to be hero?), but they are culturally and socially significant. The nature of his death and the apparent cover-up only add to the story's significance. I think Tillman's story and his families story will gives a poignant picture about our American heart during the aftermath of 9-11.

I think to try such a story without bias would not only be impossible (as objectivity is a myth) but a misdeed to what makes the story compelling. I hope we see the story through his father's eyes, because that's what really matters here. We're all smart enough people, I hope, to see through political biases, and feast the real emotional truth we might actually get.

That One Guy
08-15-2010, 08:18 AM
Whether or not Tillman was a hero or a douchebag is beside the point. I'm sure his choices to leave football and go to war weren't entirely pure (can one ever set out to be hero?), but they are culturally and socially significant. The nature of his death and the apparent cover-up only add to the story's significance. I think Tillman's story and his families story will gives a poignant picture about our American heart during the aftermath of 9-11.

I think to try such a story without bias would not only be impossible (as objectivity is a myth) but a misdeed to what makes the story compelling. I hope we see the story through his father's eyes, because that's what really matters here. We're all smart enough people, I hope, to see through political biases, and feast the real emotional truth we might actually get.

I think I can agree with most of this. I guess I just always thought there was more of a difference between a movie and a documentary but as more documentaries come out, the lines continue to get blurred.

And I hope for but doubt people's ability to see through the bias and one-sided pieces. That often isn't the strong suit of the American people.

That One Guy
08-15-2010, 08:22 AM
BTW, I also lost friends when I served in Iraq. It is really sad that not everybody gets to make it back to their families. Thanks for your service, man.

I wont judge but I am quite surprised to learn you served and don't see an issue with the hero worship.

It was the same way with the whole Jessica Lynch thing, for me.

epicSocialism4tw
08-15-2010, 09:41 AM
I wont judge but I am quite surprised to learn you served and don't see an issue with the hero worship.

It was the same way with the whole Jessica Lynch thing, for me.

People dont seen to complain that we worship pro athletes, but when they become soldiers...thats when we complain.

Pretty sad, really.

That One Guy
08-15-2010, 10:00 AM
People dont seen to complain that we worship pro athletes, but when they become soldiers...thats when we complain.

Pretty sad, really.

I think the worship of pro athletes is pretty silly, as well. I've mentioned in numerous different threads here on the Mane the different ways I've taken to avoid giving any more money to the NFL as everyone seems determined to out-fan each other.

Beyond that, even if they are worshipped as players it's just a celebrity worship like any other. When you come to worshipping fallen soldiers though, you're isolating one of thousands who have made the exact same sacrifice. How do you think that makes families feel when their loved one has probably never made the news yet Tillman's family insists on dragging this out for drama and a few bucks? There's a lot of stories of fallen soldiers to be told but all we ever get is Tillman's and how much of a hero he was - which implies moreso than any other fallen soldier.

Pontius Pirate
08-15-2010, 11:04 AM
People dont seen to complain that we worship pro athletes, but when they become soldiers...thats when we complain.

Pretty sad, really.

Coming soon to a theater near you: "The MkSkillet Story"

McSkillet gave up his professional grocery check-out career to join the Orange Mane in 2004óand became an instant troll. But the truth about McSkillet is far more simple, and ultimately more embarassing, than the caricature created by the OM. And when the OM tried to expose his trollduggery, they took on the wrong troll. From her home in Texas, McSkillet's mommy, Mrs. Skillet, led the familyís crusade to reveal the truth beneath the mythology of their sonís trolling ways.

Featuring candid and revelatory interviews with McSkillet's World of Warcraft clan members, as well as his family, Amir Bar-Levís emotional and insightful film not only shines a light on McSkillet's underachieving, boring, and totally unremarkable life, it calls to task the entire notion of trolling to fill that void in your own life - that deep void that makes young men try to make a point on the internet (because it's all they have), fail miserably, and keep on trying to make that point 3 pages later.

Pseudofool
08-15-2010, 11:17 AM
I guess I just always thought there was more of a difference between a movie and a documentary but as more documentaries come out, the lines continue to get blurred. The line was always blurry, but there's been lots of propaganda passing as documentary for the past decade (you can safely blame Michael Moore for this). Documentary is a method of film making, which utilizes interviews and exposition to tell a story, rather than narrative. It's like any film or book or text, fictional or not, if it's honest it'll be good.

And I hope for but doubt people's ability to see through the bias and one-sided pieces. That often isn't the strong suit of the American people.I think you're selling people short, because the loudest Americans are the ones at the margins. We're all pretty well trained to see through bias at this point, the problem is that it's the bias itself that gets people to tune in.

I bet it'll be pretty good. It won't be balanced (give equal time to both sides), because the military position is pretty indefensible, but balance should not be mistaken for lack bias.

Pseudofool
08-15-2010, 11:33 AM
People dont seen to complain that we worship pro athletes, Yeah, no one ever complains about athletes making millions.
Never heard a word about the lack of role models in professional sports. I wish ESPN would start covering off-the-field issues, instead of focusing exclusively on highlights and analysis. ****, I heard pro athletes can just straight up shoot dogs in the street.

I don't really believe that you're that out-of-touch. You just can't help yourself from turning the discussion into some patriotic quibble that becomes a bullhorn for your rightwing values. Every damn American, when pressed, values the soldier more than the athlete. If there was MSPN to show battle highlights and bleachers on the edge of the warzone we wouldn't even be having this discussion. It's a product of the media, not of our values.

epicSocialism4tw
08-15-2010, 01:53 PM
I think the worship of pro athletes is pretty silly, as well. I've mentioned in numerous different threads here on the Mane the different ways I've taken to avoid giving any more money to the NFL as everyone seems determined to out-fan each other.

Beyond that, even if they are worshipped as players it's just a celebrity worship like any other. When you come to worshipping fallen soldiers though, you're isolating one of thousands who have made the exact same sacrifice. How do you think that makes families feel when their loved one has probably never made the news yet Tillman's family insists on dragging this out for drama and a few bucks? There's a lot of stories of fallen soldiers to be told but all we ever get is Tillman's and how much of a hero he was - which implies moreso than any other fallen soldier.

I think that by "worshipping" one, people find a way to lift them all up.

Personally, if I see a soldier at the airport, I offer to carry their luggage. I offer to buy dinner if I see one out at a restaurant. I have paid for valet. I do what I can to help them to know that they are supported and appreciated here. I have had soldiers refuse my offers on numerous occasions, but the message has been communicated.

Rohirrim
08-15-2010, 02:23 PM
Coming soon to a theater near you: "The MkSkillet Story"

McSkillet gave up his professional grocery check-out career to join the Orange Mane in 2004óand became an instant troll. But the truth about McSkillet is far more simple, and ultimately more embarassing, than the caricature created by the OM. And when the OM tried to expose his trollduggery, they took on the wrong troll. From her home in Texas, McSkillet's mommy, Mrs. Skillet, led the familyís crusade to reveal the truth beneath the mythology of their sonís trolling ways.

Featuring candid and revelatory interviews with McSkillet's World of Warcraft clan members, as well as his family, Amir Bar-Levís emotional and insightful film not only shines a light on McSkillet's underachieving, boring, and totally unremarkable life, it calls to task the entire notion of trolling to fill that void in your own life - that deep void that makes young men try to make a point on the internet (because it's all they have), fail miserably, and keep on trying to make that point 3 pages later.

http://27.media.tumblr.com/4OQZNqQEaivi5w1vJQCHqTAfo1_500.jpg

Rohirrim
08-15-2010, 02:24 PM
I think that by "worshipping" one, people find a way to lift them all up.

Personally, if I see a soldier at the airport, I offer to carry their luggage. I offer to buy dinner if I see one out at a restaurant. I have paid for valet. I do what I can to help them to know that they are supported and appreciated here. I have had soldiers refuse my offers on numerous occasions, but the message has been communicated.

They probably figure you're trying to pick them up.

Pseudofool
08-15-2010, 03:59 PM
I think that by "worshipping" one, people find a way to lift them all up.

Personally, if I see a soldier at the airport, I offer to carry their luggage. I offer to buy dinner if I see one out at a restaurant. I have paid for valet. I do what I can to help them to know that they are supported and appreciated here. I have had soldiers refuse my offers on numerous occasions, but the message has been communicated.We all know how you feel about the "border war," one wonders what you'd do for a border patrol agent who happened upon your path. Offer to pay for their kids college? Maybe donate to their 401K? Pay their health insurance premiums?

Look, while buying a dinner and paying for a valet are real acts of generosity, it amounts to tokenism when compared to the weight of the wars your ideology put those kids in. Perhaps pre-2004, there may have been a palatable sense of heroism that soldiers could feed off, but now, you probably just patronize the poor kids by offering to carry their bags. A thank you and a hand shake communicates the same message, but then you don't get to put on a show.

That One Guy
08-15-2010, 09:44 PM
We all know how you feel about the "border war," one wonders what you'd do for a border patrol agent who happened upon your path. Offer to pay for their kids college? Maybe donate to their 401K? Pay their health insurance premiums?

Look, while buying a dinner and paying for a valet are real acts of generosity, it amounts to tokenism when compared to the weight of the wars your ideology put those kids in. Perhaps pre-2004, there may have been a palatable sense of heroism that soldiers could feed off, but now, you probably just patronize the poor kids by offering to carry their bags. A thank you and a hand shake communicates the same message, but then you don't get to put on a show.

To be honest, I think I had a lot of issues at the end of my time in but I really got to the point that I didn't want anyone's handshakes or thank yous or to even see a support the troops sticker on their car. I'm not positive why but I always attributed it to kind of what you are saying there. I always told my wife I thought it was hollow - as if people said thank you out of a sense of guilt or because it made them feel better about forgetting we were at war for months on end. Strangely, I preferred a "be safe" 100x more than a "thank you".

I sometimes feel guilty because a Vietnam vet would probably punch me in the nose for my attitude after what all they went through. For me, for whatever reason, any sort of going out of the way just irked the hell out of me.

epicSocialism4tw
08-15-2010, 09:52 PM
We all know how you feel about the "border war," one wonders what you'd do for a border patrol agent who happened upon your path. Offer to pay for their kids college? Maybe donate to their 401K? Pay their health insurance premiums?

Look, while buying a dinner and paying for a valet are real acts of generosity, it amounts to tokenism when compared to the weight of the wars your ideology put those kids in. Perhaps pre-2004, there may have been a palatable sense of heroism that soldiers could feed off, but now, you probably just patronize the poor kids by offering to carry their bags. A thank you and a hand shake communicates the same message, but then you don't get to put on a show.

You have no idea what I have and have not done and I dont plan on sharing it with you here. Pearls before swine.

Everyone likes to have a little kindness and appreciation shown to them. I just used those little things as examples.

What an absolute jerk worthy of scorn you are.

A small, narrow minded little thing crushed under the weight of your own ego.

Natedogg
08-15-2010, 10:07 PM
http://www.amazon.com/Where-Men-Win-Glory-Odyssey/dp/0385522266

Was a very good read. It probably has more details than the film. (I saw no instance of 15,000 dollar parties, or of Pat being a jerk-- in fact it was just the opposite. Of course the book was subjective (I think "bias" might be an incorrect term), almost all writing/art/film is subjective.

It's kind of sad that when someone lies (in this case the army, can we all agree on that?) and other people try to get to the bottom of the lie and try to find out why the lie was created, that some people have a knee jerk reaction is to dismiss the lie as not important and criticize people for "muckraking" and call them names. (Its especially jarring when its done to the parents of the victim of the lie.)

But hey, Welcome to the Orange Mane!