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bronclvr
07-06-2010, 06:52 AM
A Mexican drug cartel has threatened police officers in Arizona who confiscated a marijuana shipment, prompting the small town department to warn its officers to remain armed and have radios with them at all times, and keep their body armor handy.

Police in Nogales, Arizona, have been told to carry guns at all times.Police and experts believe the warning against the Nogales, Ariz., cops marks the first time that powerful Mexican drug cartels, used to bribing and bullying police south of the border, have targeted U.S. officers.

Jeffrey Kirkham, chief of the Nogales police department, told ABCNews.com that informants had delivered the threats after two off-duty police officers seized 400 pounds of marijuana while horseback riding outside the city earlier this month. The pot was worth about $250,000, he said.

Kirkham said informants have told his police department that off-duty officers should ignore cross-border drug shipments or face retaliation.

The threats appear credible because various informants were able to identify the officers who intercepted the drug load. Kirkham said the threats by Mexican traffickers were the first against local law enforcement on the U.S. side of the border.

"They're getting upset that their product so to speak is not getting to where it needs to be," Kirkham said of the cartels.

The chief said he gave a stern warning of his own to his 63 officers for what to do while they are off duty.

"We met with all the employees and supervisors to make them aware of what was said, and to make sure that they have their body armor and are armed and that their communications equipment is working properly," Kirkham said. Kirkham attributed the surprising threat toMexico's war on the cartels.

"The pressure is on them from the president in Mexico and that desperation is starting to spill over the border," Kirkham told ABCNews.com.

Attacks by Mexican cartels on American law enforcement officers would be an alarming escalation of the Mexican drug wars. Cartel turf wars have killed more than 23,000 people across Mexico since President Felipe Calderon launched a military crackdown on drug gangs in late 2006.

In the neighboring Mexican city of Nogales, attacks on police officers have become commonplace. A deputy police chief in Nogales, Mexico, and his bodyguard were shot dead in March when gunmen in a pickup truck opened fire on them with assault rifles.

In November 2008, the police chief for Sonora state, which includes Nogales, was ambushed and killed just a few miles south of the Arizona border.


more here: http://abcnews.go.com/US/mexican-drug-cartels-threaten-police-arizona/story?id=10995661

Anybody else still against the Arizona Law?

sisterhellfyre
07-06-2010, 09:40 AM
Once upon a time, back in 1916, there was a guy named Doroteo Arango (aka Pancho Villa) raiding across the border and retreating back into Mexico. Woodrow Wilson sent the Army (Brigadier General Pershing in command) into Mexico in pursuit of Villa with the reluctant agreement of the Mexican president. Sounds great, but the rules of engagement were so restrictive that Pershing's troops were all but hamstrung.

I hear that history repeats itself. Something to think about?

gunns
07-06-2010, 09:53 AM
A Mexican drug cartel has threatened police officers in Arizona who confiscated a marijuana shipment, prompting the small town department to warn its officers to remain armed and have radios with them at all times, and keep their body armor handy.

Police in Nogales, Arizona, have been told to carry guns at all times.Police and experts believe the warning against the Nogales, Ariz., cops marks the first time that powerful Mexican drug cartels, used to bribing and bullying police south of the border, have targeted U.S. officers.

Jeffrey Kirkham, chief of the Nogales police department, told ABCNews.com that informants had delivered the threats after two off-duty police officers seized 400 pounds of marijuana while horseback riding outside the city earlier this month. The pot was worth about $250,000, he said.

Kirkham said informants have told his police department that off-duty officers should ignore cross-border drug shipments or face retaliation.

The threats appear credible because various informants were able to identify the officers who intercepted the drug load. Kirkham said the threats by Mexican traffickers were the first against local law enforcement on the U.S. side of the border.

"They're getting upset that their product so to speak is not getting to where it needs to be," Kirkham said of the cartels.

The chief said he gave a stern warning of his own to his 63 officers for what to do while they are off duty.

"We met with all the employees and supervisors to make them aware of what was said, and to make sure that they have their body armor and are armed and that their communications equipment is working properly," Kirkham said. Kirkham attributed the surprising threat toMexico's war on the cartels.

"The pressure is on them from the president in Mexico and that desperation is starting to spill over the border," Kirkham told ABCNews.com.

Attacks by Mexican cartels on American law enforcement officers would be an alarming escalation of the Mexican drug wars. Cartel turf wars have killed more than 23,000 people across Mexico since President Felipe Calderon launched a military crackdown on drug gangs in late 2006.

In the neighboring Mexican city of Nogales, attacks on police officers have become commonplace. A deputy police chief in Nogales, Mexico, and his bodyguard were shot dead in March when gunmen in a pickup truck opened fire on them with assault rifles.

In November 2008, the police chief for Sonora state, which includes Nogales, was ambushed and killed just a few miles south of the Arizona border.


more here: http://abcnews.go.com/US/mexican-drug-cartels-threaten-police-arizona/story?id=10995661

Anybody else still against the Arizona Law?

You can get rid of all the illegal immigrants here in the US and it isn't going to stop something like this. There are plenty of American citizens willing to take that product and if stopped by the police, the cartel would be just as pissed. It's time for a little reenforcement down there.

Binkythefrog
07-06-2010, 09:56 AM
What does this have to do with the Arizona law?

The Arizona law targets those who police suspect are not from the United States. Even with strict immigration controls, these drug cartels would exist because of high demand for drugs from the United States.

Hoping that random checks on citizens will reduce the number of Mexican drug operatives in the US is a pipe dream.

Closing the border, getting more national guard resources to the border or reducing the ridiculous demand for drugs from the United States is the answer to fight these powerful drug cartels, not randomly asking people for their papers.

gyldenlove
07-06-2010, 09:58 AM
This is why they have Delta Force right? send them to Mexico and let them do their ****, a few more dead drug dealers in dumpsters wouldn't be suspecious.

cutthemdown
07-06-2010, 10:10 AM
Eventually I could see US troops in Mexico. Still probably 3-5 yrs away but eventually.

cutthemdown
07-06-2010, 10:11 AM
Sending in Delta Force is an act of war. That no small thing even though we do it all the time LOL!!

Kaylore
07-06-2010, 10:12 AM
Illegal immigrants aren't making people smoke pot.

oubronco
07-06-2010, 10:13 AM
Hell just send in some snipers and rid the country of a few worthless human beings

baja
07-06-2010, 10:17 AM
Eventually I could see US troops in Mexico. Still probably 3-5 yrs away but eventually.

I love it when you come up with these time lines, does it hurt when you pull them out of your ass?

Paladin
07-06-2010, 10:21 AM
If Americans were allowed to grow their own pot, that would end the Mexican pot smuggling....

broncocalijohn
07-06-2010, 10:32 AM
This is why they have Delta Force right? send them to Mexico and let them do their ****, a few more dead drug dealers in dumpsters wouldn't be suspecious.

That is old school. Now they just behead the guys. I have yet to hear our President Obama say anything on this. This is the type of news you use to get the National Guard and more border patrol in the area. Mexico needs us to do more undercover work in Mexico on our terms (since Mexico is so damn corrupt). Cutting off the fingers is fine but more effective would be to go for the throat.

cutthemdown
07-06-2010, 10:35 AM
Illegal immigrants aren't making people smoke pot.

Also they grow somuch in calif im surprised they even need to smuggle anymore.

My area got smart, made it legal, sort of, but now wants to make these crazy taxes. They want shops to pay income tax, a 10 thousand a yr permit fee, and 15% right off the top each month of the gross income. LOL the gross!!!

DO that and you create a huge black market and nothing changes. Ou govt will never learn. You have to make drugs legal, and tax low, get rid of all black markets for it to work.

cutthemdown
07-06-2010, 10:37 AM
That is old school. Now they just behead the guys. I have yet to hear our President Obama say anything on this. This is the type of news you use to get the National Guard and more border patrol in the area. Mexico needs us to do more undercover work in Mexico on our terms (since Mexico is so damn corrupt). Cutting off the fingers is fine but more effective would be to go for the throat.

Let's give them some credit. Men have had families shot because they aren't taking payoffs and fighting them. The President of Mexico has fought them hard. It's just the billions from drug trade is hard to fight. They have gone for the throat which is why the criminals are desperate right now.

baja
07-06-2010, 10:41 AM
Let's give them some credit. Men have had families shot because they aren't taking payoffs and fighting them. The President of Mexico has fought them hard. It's just the billions from drug trade is hard to fight. They have gone for the throat which is why the criminals are desperate right now.

Clearly the depression is hurting all business including the drug business.

Smiling Assassin27
07-06-2010, 10:42 AM
And the Federal government, being the inefficient, lazy, and politically motivated entity that it is, will announce shortly that 'it's a state matter' as they pursue a lawsuit against that state to legislate border enforcement itself.

If anyone saw 'Tombstone', you know exactly who the President is in all this:

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nIdBAzWoRjg&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nIdBAzWoRjg&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

Sherriff John Behan...

TheElusiveKyleOrton
07-06-2010, 10:42 AM
You can get rid of all the illegal immigrants here in the US and it isn't going to stop something like this. There are plenty of American citizens willing to take that product and if stopped by the police, the cartel would be just as pissed. It's time for a little reenforcement down there.

This. The Arizona law doesn't JUST affect drug lords; in fact it would barely phase them.

Cop: "Can I see your papers please? I think you might be illegal."
Drug lord: /fires gun

You're right. The Arizona law would TOTALLY take care of these things.

Smiling Assassin27
07-06-2010, 10:48 AM
This. The Arizona law doesn't JUST affect drug lords; in fact it would barely phase them.

Cop: "Can I see your papers please? I think you might be illegal."
Drug lord: /fires gun

You're right. The Arizona law would TOTALLY take care of these things.

Strawman. The law wasn't enacted to deal with this and never has been represented as such.

Taking a pot shot at the 1070 because it doesn't solve the drug cartel problem or cure cancer is kinda cheap, really.

Homer Simpson
07-06-2010, 10:52 AM
Reminds me of Breaking Bad...

baja
07-06-2010, 10:53 AM
If the drug lords kill US cops it will prove to be their undoing.

Garcia Bronco
07-06-2010, 10:55 AM
If Americans were allowed to grow their own pot, that would end the Mexican pot smuggling....

This. Stop the bull****.

Meck77
07-06-2010, 11:22 AM
Mexico! Heaven on Earth!

barryr
07-06-2010, 11:29 AM
Meanwhile Holder and the Obama admin. would rather spend time suing the state of Arizona for trying to do something about this problem instead of securing the border like they are supposed to be doing.

broncosteven
07-06-2010, 11:43 AM
If Americans were allowed to grow their own pot, that would end the Mexican pot smuggling....

Ummm do you think that all they are bringing in is pot?

What about Coke, Heroin, Speed/Meth, not to mention slave trade, extortion, indentured servitude(sp?).

Legalizing weed won't make it all go away, it would just amplify the issues.

baja
07-06-2010, 11:45 AM
Ummm do you think that all they are bringing in is pot?

What about Coke, Heroin, Speed/Meth, not to mention slave trade, extortion, indentured servitude(sp?).

Legalizing weed won't make it all go away, it would just amplify the issues.Wrong
Made yo look

Cool Breeze
07-06-2010, 11:51 AM
If the drug lords kill US cops it will prove to be their undoing.

This
Watch the **** storm that occurs if they come across. People will be clamoring for intervention.

OBF1
07-06-2010, 11:58 AM
Also they grow somuch in calif im surprised they even need to smuggle anymore.

My area got smart, made it legal, sort of, but now wants to make these crazy taxes. They want shops to pay income tax, a 10 thousand a yr permit fee, and 15% right off the top each month of the gross income. LOL the gross!!!

DO that and you create a huge black market and nothing changes. Ou govt will never learn. You have to make drugs legal, and tax low, get rid of all black markets for it to work.

Like the low tax percentage on Liquor, cigarettes and gasoline ??? Buy a vowel Vanna

cutthemdown
07-06-2010, 12:00 PM
Clearly the depression is hurting all business including the drug business.

the profit margin so high though they will survive just fine. Probably if anything the war is about less money to pay off police and govt. So now they have to fight them more with violence.

OBF1
07-06-2010, 12:00 PM
Ummm do you think that all they are bringing in is pot?

What about Coke, Heroin, Speed/Meth, not to mention slave trade, extortion, indentured servitude(sp?).

Legalizing weed won't make it all go away, it would just amplify the issues.

Winner:thumbs:

24champ
07-06-2010, 12:06 PM
Little know that the United States trained Mexico's Special Forces in Georgia a couple years ago, and guess what? Most of those guys we trained are now fighting FOR the Cartel. These guys are highly trained with sniper rifles, automatics, and have great communication tools. The police officers on the border are badly outgunned. It's no match.

The President needs to start thinking about sending in Special Forces to snuff out these a-holes and to destroy the tunnels that lead into the United States. We need to get a plan going to erect a full proof wall that spans the border. The drawback is that it costs serious money, but even then, I doubt Americans would have a problem with the costs.

Blueflame
07-06-2010, 12:15 PM
Strawman. The law wasn't enacted to deal with this and never has been represented as such.

Taking a pot shot at the 1070 because it doesn't solve the drug cartel problem or cure cancer is kinda cheap, really.

Actually it was the OP who made the first attempt to link the drug cartels to 1070. Subsequent posters are pointing out (in apparent agreement with you) that there is no connection and the Arizona law was enacted for different reasons (illegal immigration; not drug cartels).

Kaylore
07-06-2010, 12:28 PM
My area got smart, made it legal, sort of, but now wants to make these crazy taxes. They want shops to pay income tax, a 10 thousand a yr permit fee, and 15% right off the top each month of the gross income. LOL the gross!!!

DO that and you create a huge black market and nothing changes. Ou govt will never learn. You have to make drugs legal, and tax low, get rid of all black markets for it to work.

No I think that's smart. Legalize it and tax the snot out of it. It will generate jobs, hurt the drug lords, reduce spending on border patrols and create income. That's basically what they do with Tobacco and it's still profitable and people aren't selling illegal tobacco at any real substantive level.

Meck77
07-06-2010, 12:38 PM
We just need to boycott anything related to Mexico. Most everyone I know doesn't even visit that ****hole anymore. As far as marijuana goes there is little doubt that Colorado's demand is way down. Everyone and their brother seems to be growing it these days.

epicSocialism4tw
07-06-2010, 02:22 PM
If our federal government actually does something on this issue, there's a legit chance that the Mexican cartels will start to use terrorism over here in a more visible way.

chadta
07-06-2010, 02:44 PM
That's basically what they do with Tobacco and it's still profitable and people aren't selling illegal tobacco at any real substantive level.

up here in ontario where the governemnt truely taxes the hell out of things, a pack of smokes is over 10 bucks, but you can get a bag of contraband rollies on the reserve for 20 bucks, one bag is equal to 200 smokes or a carton.

recently they did a study and found that 33% of butts outside the ontario legeslature, and 25% of butts outside the supremem court of canada are contraband native smokes.

thats a substantive level if you ask me.

Kaylore
07-06-2010, 02:49 PM
up here in ontario where the governemnt truely taxes the hell out of things, a pack of smokes is over 10 bucks, but you can get a bag of contraband rollies on the reserve for 20 bucks, one bag is equal to 200 smokes or a carton.

recently they did a study and found that 33% of butts outside the ontario legeslature, and 25% of butts outside the supremem court of canada are contraband native smokes.

thats a substantive level if you ask me.

Well, then there's Canada...

SportinOne
07-06-2010, 02:51 PM
while i do think that legalizing and taxing pot would only cause the cartels to deal more of the other drugs, it is pretty sad to know that people are getting killed over marijuana. but i guess it really has nothing to do with the drug.. they are just units. doesn't matter what it is. still, legalize it.

bronclvr
07-06-2010, 03:00 PM
I don't think you can treat Pot like Cigarettes-if you Tax it too high, you will just encourage an underground source, one that already has a distribution Network, and Salesmen already in place. Look at Alcohol-even today, there a lot of Stills working in the Southern States, and that thar 'shine is much more potent than the store bought stuff-

Tax it, make it affordable, and then you can control it-after the supply chains dry up then you can raise prices-maybe-

listopencil
07-06-2010, 04:16 PM
Defending citizens from foreign nationals is the duty of the Federal government, and is one of the prime reasons we have a national military. Send them in to Arizona. By all means attempt to operate in conjunction with Mexican forces. Perhaps they can set up a kill zone for us to chase them into. Notify, yes I mean notify, the Mexican government that if necessary we will chase members of the cartel into Mexican territory to track and kill them if they are caught trying to kill or harm American police.

This is ridiculous:

"In the neighboring Mexican city of Nogales, attacks on police officers have become commonplace. A deputy police chief in Nogales, Mexico, and his bodyguard were shot dead in March when gunmen in a pickup truck opened fire on them with assault rifles. "

A deputy police chief needs a bodyguard? **** that. Kill them.

UberBroncoMan
07-06-2010, 05:02 PM
Legalize MJ and make our border with Mexico - S. Korea/N. Korea 2.0. Get rid of all current illegals who have criminal history.

Houshyamama
07-06-2010, 05:15 PM
Illegal immigrants aren't making people smoke pot.

Shut up dude, you don't know what you're talking about. YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW. Pot is inherently evil as are those that grow and sell it.

McDman
07-06-2010, 05:24 PM
If the drug lords kill US cops it will prove to be their undoing.

Exactly, if this happens and Obama can grow a pair of balls it would be the worst thing for the cartels to do.

We all but tolerate the drug runners into this country, if we looked at it as a serious problem it would be a much bigger deal to us. Once they start offing our cops it will get real serious. Of course, our El Presidente has to show some cajones.

baja
07-06-2010, 05:38 PM
Exactly, if this happens and Obama can grow a pair of balls it would be the worst thing for the cartels to do.

We all but tolerate the drug runners into this country, if we looked at it as a serious problem it would be a much bigger deal to us. Once they start offing our cops it will get real serious. Of course, our El Presidente has to show some cajones.

Here's the scary thing. A person with a vendetta toward the drug lords could start a war on the border against the mexican cartals by offing a couple of police officers and making it look like the smugglers did it. We live in fragle times.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
07-06-2010, 07:50 PM
Strawman. The law wasn't enacted to deal with this and never has been represented as such.

Taking a pot shot at the 1070 because it doesn't solve the drug cartel problem or cure cancer is kinda cheap, really.

Strawman? That's the EXACT argument that was made by the OP. It assumes that people are still against 1070 and that it has anything to do with THIS STORY.

Tell it to the guy who posted the story, then asked how anyone can still be against the Arizona law.

listopencil
07-06-2010, 08:06 PM
Here's the scary thing. A person with a vendetta toward the drug lords could start a war on the border against the mexican cartals by offing a couple of police officers and making it look like the smugglers did it. We live in fragle times.


I'm gonna go ahead and root for anyone with a vendetta toward the drug lords.

McDman
07-06-2010, 08:44 PM
Here's the scary thing. A person with a vendetta toward the drug lords could start a war on the border against the mexican cartals by offing a couple of police officers and making it look like the smugglers did it. We live in fragle times.

True, but who cares really. Something needs to be done about them anyways and it's clear the Mexican government is either too inept or too corrupt to do it themselves.

I've read books about Mexico being an easy access route for a new wave of terrorism, while they are fiction it does provide some good points. Look how many illegals get across every day with the help of coyotes. With enough money I don't think any of those guides will have a problem sneaking people across carrying weapons.

baja
07-06-2010, 08:47 PM
I'm gonna go ahead and root for anyone with a vendetta toward the drug lords.

I get you point but we are in a deep recession and fighting two wars, this is extreemly bad timing to take on another war and the ranafications of this border war would be much more realized that the other two. This is close to home and would be devistating, so much so that if I were a terrorist I would consider this a smart move to get a conflict going on the border with the drug cartals.


Dude we got troops pulling 4 and 5 cycles of duty who do you plan on using to fight this third war?

broncocalijohn
07-06-2010, 08:53 PM
We just need to boycott anything related to Mexico. Most everyone I know doesn't even visit that ****hole anymore. As far as marijuana goes there is little doubt that Colorado's demand is way down. Everyone and their brother seems to be growing it these days.

Just another way to get Baja's polls banned. Where do I sign up?

Lev Vyvanse
07-06-2010, 09:01 PM
I get you point but we are in a deep recession and fighting two wars, this is extreemly bad timing to take on another war and the ranafications of this border war would be much more realized that the other two. This is close to home and would be devistating, so much so that if I were a terrorist I would consider this a smart move to get a conflict going on the border with the drug cartals.


Dude we got troops pulling 4 and 5 cycles of duty who do you plan on using to fight this third war?

Just pull out of one of the other wars. Think of the savings in fuel!!!!

extralife
07-06-2010, 09:03 PM
We really need to help Mexico out with taking on the cartels. Can't have it both ways.

azbroncfan
07-06-2010, 09:05 PM
No I think that's smart. Legalize it and tax the snot out of it. It will generate jobs, hurt the drug lords, reduce spending on border patrols and create income. That's basically what they do with Tobacco and it's still profitable and people aren't selling illegal tobacco at any real substantive level.

The Pot growers in California are the biggest supporters to keep it illegal.

Pontius Pirate
07-06-2010, 09:18 PM
http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/comment/9/2010/07/cf4630642225fb2dd1460d4da6485547/original.jpg

strafen
07-06-2010, 09:55 PM
Time for the National Guard to take over the borders...

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
07-06-2010, 10:19 PM
A Mexican drug cartel has threatened police officers in Arizona who confiscated a marijuana shipment, prompting the small town department to warn its officers to remain armed and have radios with them at all times, and keep their body armor handy.

Police in Nogales, Arizona, have been told to carry guns at all times.Police and experts believe the warning against the Nogales, Ariz., cops marks the first time that powerful Mexican drug cartels, used to bribing and bullying police south of the border, have targeted U.S. officers.

Jeffrey Kirkham, chief of the Nogales police department, told ABCNews.com that informants had delivered the threats after two off-duty police officers seized 400 pounds of marijuana while horseback riding outside the city earlier this month. The pot was worth about $250,000, he said.

Kirkham said informants have told his police department that off-duty officers should ignore cross-border drug shipments or face retaliation.

The threats appear credible because various informants were able to identify the officers who intercepted the drug load. Kirkham said the threats by Mexican traffickers were the first against local law enforcement on the U.S. side of the border.

"They're getting upset that their product so to speak is not getting to where it needs to be," Kirkham said of the cartels.

The chief said he gave a stern warning of his own to his 63 officers for what to do while they are off duty.

"We met with all the employees and supervisors to make them aware of what was said, and to make sure that they have their body armor and are armed and that their communications equipment is working properly," Kirkham said. Kirkham attributed the surprising threat toMexico's war on the cartels.

"The pressure is on them from the president in Mexico and that desperation is starting to spill over the border," Kirkham told ABCNews.com.

Attacks by Mexican cartels on American law enforcement officers would be an alarming escalation of the Mexican drug wars. Cartel turf wars have killed more than 23,000 people across Mexico since President Felipe Calderon launched a military crackdown on drug gangs in late 2006.

In the neighboring Mexican city of Nogales, attacks on police officers have become commonplace. A deputy police chief in Nogales, Mexico, and his bodyguard were shot dead in March when gunmen in a pickup truck opened fire on them with assault rifles.

In November 2008, the police chief for Sonora state, which includes Nogales, was ambushed and killed just a few miles south of the Arizona border.


more here: http://abcnews.go.com/US/mexican-drug-cartels-threaten-police-arizona/story?id=10995661

Anybody else still against the Arizona Law?

That Ok. :thumbsup:

Play2win
07-06-2010, 10:50 PM
Time for the National Guard to take over the borders...

I would hope it would be a step up from the National Guard.

Archer81
07-06-2010, 10:54 PM
A few things.

1. I dont think the cartels have anything to do with the Az law.

2. Eventually, a president and congress are not going to be in the mood to play politics with the American borders and will overreact to border violence and illegal immigration. What will spark this overreaction will be a terror group (hamas, al qaeda, hezbollah...take your pick) will get a nuclear, chemical, biological or dirty bomb across the border and set it off. Every president and congress since LBJ will be culpable in the deaths of citizens because of a lax and incoherent border policy.

3. Heaven help the regular mexican and american citizens on either side of the border when the regular American military is used to fight the cartels.

It still floors me that the world's sole superpower lacks the will to fortify the border. The world's great empires always ensured the stability of their frontiers. When they did not, they ceased to exist.

:Broncos:

cutthemdown
07-07-2010, 01:33 AM
No I think that's smart. Legalize it and tax the snot out of it. It will generate jobs, hurt the drug lords, reduce spending on border patrols and create income. That's basically what they do with Tobacco and it's still profitable and people aren't selling illegal tobacco at any real substantive level.

but its legal under the guise its medical. The law has always been no tax on pharmacuticals.

cutthemdown
07-07-2010, 01:45 AM
I am against bull****. If it is medical then dispense it at a pharmacy, no tax, insurance pays like anything else. It adds to the expense doesnt solve anything if done right.

If thats just a joke to let govt in on drug dealing then by all means.

If country wants it legal, then we do it at the fed level. They made laws that are more powerful. We dont just ignore and move on. Im sick of this crap leadership we have. This is all a big problem waiting to happen.

Legal calif weed, coming to a city near you were its not legal so it can be sold for more money, which goes back to calif, and is laundered into big bucks by once again not any of us.

BroncoBuff
07-07-2010, 02:42 AM
Time for the National Guard to take over the borders...

Definitely ... Obama has really fallen down on this issue, e could have really attacked it. Promptly and responsibly. Instead called them out in his Sate ofthe Union speech. Of course Bush ignored it for the last eight years, and Clinton eight before that, but that's no excuse.

He's missing a huge political opportunity too. Special interests like things the way they are, but a large part of the electorate wants aggresive action.

El Guapo
07-07-2010, 04:34 AM
If our federal government actually does something on this issue, there's a legit chance that the Mexican cartels will start to use terrorism over here in a more visible way.


Yup. Just a couple of weeks ago we barely thwarted an attempt to blow up a dam (Thats on the border w Texas). As mentioned earlier, these guys were trained by us, became hitmen for a cartel and then became thei own cartel. They already have hit squads over here in the states.

Unfortunately it will take an event like this, or a policemans death over here, to wake up the govt.

baja
07-07-2010, 06:28 AM
A few things.

1. I dont think the cartels have anything to do with the Az law.

2. Eventually, a president and congress are not going to be in the mood to play politics with the American borders and will overreact to border violence and illegal immigration. What will spark this overreaction will be a terror group (hamas, al qaeda, hezbollah...take your pick) will get a nuclear, chemical, biological or dirty bomb across the border and set it off. Every president and congress since LBJ will be culpable in the deaths of citizens because of a lax and incoherent border policy.

3. Heaven help the regular mexican and american citizens on either side of the border when the regular American military is used to fight the cartels.

It still floors me that the world's sole superpower lacks the will to fortify the border. The world's great empires always ensured the stability of their frontiers. When they did not, they ceased to exist.

:Broncos:

Good post. The sister problem to the unwillingness to protect our borders is that we are rottening from within. The citizens are being poisoned and dumbed down by the nutreant deficent food they are forced (through ecomonics) to eat, health care that is really sympton and pain management and though thought control via controled media. The United States power resides in unseen hands that do not have the interests of the people at heart. In fact it appears that it is the distruction of the US as we know it that is the real goal. Look to the response to the gulf oil spill as the most recent example of this.

Do you think American people will wake up to this situtation and take back their country before it is too late? That is the most pressing question of our lives.

sisterhellfyre
07-07-2010, 08:59 AM
He's missing a huge political opportunity too. Special interests like things the way they are, but a large part of the electorate wants aggresive action.

You're missing the point, Buff. It's not that the immigration mess is a failure of policy. This has gone on so long because the mess *is* the policy.

ZONA
07-07-2010, 12:11 PM
Eventually I could see US troops in Mexico. Still probably 3-5 yrs away but eventually.

Nope - it would lose the president willing the latino vote. That's exactly why nothing is being done today or has been done for years and years. I imagine that vote is worth some dead americans in the candidates eyes.

broncocalijohn
07-07-2010, 12:13 PM
Definitely ... Obama has really fallen down on this issue, e could have really attacked it. Promptly and responsibly. Instead called them out in his Sate ofthe Union speech. Of course Bush ignored it for the last eight years, and Clinton eight before that, but that's no excuse.

He's missing a huge political opportunity too. Special interests like things the way they are, but a large part of the electorate wants aggresive action.

Amazing you can attack your precious president but you are right on the mark. This has been neglected for so many years. The citizens are outraged and the government wants to take the stand of special interest group ie. La Raza to get votes or at elast show he is standing with them. Problem is that he will lose the independents and I suspect many Democrats in Arizona or the southern Democrat type for 2012 and probably hurt Dems chances in these upcoming elections.

Meck77
07-07-2010, 12:15 PM
Yup. Just a couple of weeks ago we barely thwarted an attempt to blow up a dam (Thats on the border w Texas). As mentioned earlier, these guys were trained by us, became hitmen for a cartel and then became thei own cartel. They already have hit squads over here in the states.

Unfortunately it will take an event like this, or a policemans death over here, to wake up the govt.

Didn't hear a peep about that. Just a matter of time before this really boils over like the PB oil disaster. At that point we'll hear more empty words from Obama and Co.

I wonder how much money the government is going to piss away on lawyers fighting the people's wishes of AZ.

broncocalijohn
07-07-2010, 12:19 PM
Didn't hear a peep about that. Just a matter of time before this really boils over like the PB oil disaster. At that point we'll hear more empty words from Obama and Co.

I wonder how much money the government is going to piss away on lawyers fighting the people's wishes of America.

fixed it for you.

Tombstone RJ
07-07-2010, 12:52 PM
I'll say it again, instead of supporting and backing up the state of AZ for attempting to enforce the law, the fed gov instead sues AZ and claims that they are the only gov entity that has a right to oversee immigration. Wow, the irony is so confounding its literally embarrassing to be a US citizen. Our fed gov totally neglects immigration and then sues the state of AZ for protecting its border because the fed gov refuses to do its job.

I just love the fed gov. Obama, you are a joke.

baja
07-07-2010, 12:52 PM
Nope - it would lose the president willing the latino vote. That's exactly why nothing is being done today or has been done for years and years. I imagine that vote is worth some dead americans in the candidates eyes.


Voting Latinos are the group most opposed to illegals being here.

The real and only reason nothing is being done is because the puppet masters (big Bus) do not want to lose the endless supply of cheap labor that they can abuse and discard.

sisterhellfyre
07-07-2010, 01:02 PM
I just love the fed gov. Obama, you are a joke.

Tombstone, I understand that you don't like Obama. But do you suppose that the Shrub, Clinton, or Bush Senior would have done any differently than sue Arizona?

When 20 states are already considering (or have adopted) resolutions about states rights and restricting the reach of the federals, there's just no way they could not take Arizona to court. That would make a huge statement and set a dangerous (for the federal govt) precedent about states rights. Preservation of the status quo is the modus vivendi for the majority of people in DC. Self-maintenance of the bureaucracy eventually becomes the reason for existence of any bureaucracy.

"It's very hard to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on not understanding it." -- Upton Sinclair

broncocalijohn
07-07-2010, 01:09 PM
Tombstone, I understand that you don't like Obama. But do you suppose that the Shrub, Clinton, or Bush Senior would have done any differently than sue Arizona?

When 20 states are already considering (or have adopted) resolutions about states rights and restricting the reach of the federals, there's just no way they could not take Arizona to court. That would make a huge statement and set a dangerous (for the federal govt) precedent about states rights. Preservation of the status quo is the modus vivendi for the majority of people in DC. Self-maintenance of the bureaucracy eventually becomes the reason for existence of any bureaucracy.

"It's very hard to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on not understanding it." -- Upton Sinclair

Then where is the precedent to go after San Francisco for being a safe haven for illegal aliens? That is against the law too yet you dont see the fed. government going after them. It is hypocrisy and they are fighting a losing battle. There is a reason why so many Americans think state rights is an important issue and this is prime example.

24champ
07-07-2010, 01:10 PM
Yup. Just a couple of weeks ago we barely thwarted an attempt to blow up a dam (Thats on the border w Texas). As mentioned earlier, these guys were trained by us, became hitmen for a cartel and then became thei own cartel. They already have hit squads over here in the states..

Exactly right, this is why I advocate putting together some teams of Special Forces along the border. The mission would be to systematically destroy the Cartel's shipment routes into the United States. These guys run drugs very well through tunnels and other means.

The United States Military has the capability to swiftly end this border bull**** in a days work or so. Once the Cartel is out of the way and drug routes are shut down, THEN you put the National Guard in and start building a complex wall to keep the United States secure. Problem is, we lack the spine to do it.

baja
07-07-2010, 01:19 PM
Tombstone, I understand that you don't like Obama. But do you suppose that the Shrub, Clinton, or Bush Senior would have done any differently than sue Arizona?

When 20 states are already considering (or have adopted) resolutions about states rights and restricting the reach of the federals, there's just no way they could not take Arizona to court. That would make a huge statement and set a dangerous (for the federal govt) precedent about states rights. Preservation of the status quo is the modus vivendi for the majority of people in DC. Self-maintenance of the bureaucracy eventually becomes the reason for existence of any bureaucracy.

<b>"It's very hard to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on not understanding it." -- Upton Sinclair

That is the quote of the month for me. Thanks

sisterhellfyre
07-07-2010, 01:31 PM
Then where is the precedent to go after San Francisco for being a safe haven for illegal aliens? That is against the law too yet you dont see the fed. government going after them. It is hypocrisy and they are fighting a losing battle. There is a reason why so many Americans think state rights is an important issue and this is prime example.

LOL I never said it made any sense, BCJ, just that I could see some consequences the federal government would want to avoid.

Play2win
07-07-2010, 01:35 PM
That is the quote of the month for me. Thanks

That quote might explain why some Republicans are Republicans-- Investments in the Oil Business, no?

baja
07-07-2010, 01:53 PM
That quote might explain why some Republicans are Republicans-- Investments in the Oil Business, no?

It reminds me of another pertnant quote, this one by Jack Nicholson "The truth, you can't handle truth."

sisterhellfyre
07-07-2010, 01:57 PM
The scary part is that Sinclair said it about the moneyed, self-serving powers of the early 1900s. It came years before even World War I, let alone Black Friday and the Great Depression. Funny how much things stay the same, no matter how much we think they've changed and we've learned better...

Baja, you might like this one too: "Fascism is capitalism plus murder."

TheElusiveKyleOrton
07-07-2010, 01:58 PM
I'll say it again, instead of supporting and backing up the state of AZ for attempting to enforce the law, the fed gov instead sues AZ and claims that they are the only gov entity that has a right to oversee immigration. Wow, the irony is so confounding its literally embarrassing to be a US citizen. Our fed gov totally neglects immigration and then sues the state of AZ for protecting its border because the fed gov refuses to do its job.

I just love the fed gov. Obama, you are a joke.

News flash for those who know nothing: the federal government "claims" that they're the only gov't entity that has a right to oversee immigration... because they're the only gov't entity that has the right to oversee immigration.

Please continue to blame Obama for a problem that's 40+ years old. Your ignorance makes me giggle.

baja
07-07-2010, 02:14 PM
The scary part is that Sinclair said it about the moneyed, self-serving powers of the early 1900s. It came years before even World War I, let alone Black Friday and the Great Depression. Funny how much things stay the same, no matter how much we think they've changed and we've learned better...

Baja, you might like this one too: "Fascism is capitalism plus murder."


I would say it this way,

"Fascism is capitalism with the curtain pulled back"

extralife
07-07-2010, 02:35 PM
You guys are idiots. Fascism has nothing to do with capitalism, in as much as it is even a defined economic philosophy to begin with (which it isn't).

sisterhellfyre
07-07-2010, 02:40 PM
You guys are idiots. Fascism has nothing to do with capitalism, in as much as it is even a defined economic philosophy to begin with (which it isn't).

Never mind, it was just me & Baja riffing off each other. [shrug] It was pretty incidental to the thread, and I don't want to derail it any further.

Hamrob
07-07-2010, 05:46 PM
What's the problem with asking people to properly identify themselves? I thought illegal immigrants were...eh, "Illegal"? If you can't prove your an American cititzen...see ya!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
07-07-2010, 06:08 PM
What's the problem with asking people to properly identify themselves? I thought illegal immigrants were...eh, "Illegal"? If you can't prove your an American cititzen...see ya!

Arresting legal citizens for not having a birth certificate on them is a problem. Pulling people over on fake charges (like going 1-2 MPH over the speed limit) because they "look" illegal is a problem.

But continue to oversimplify the issue. It's much easier. See ya!

strafen
07-07-2010, 06:44 PM
What's the problem with asking people to properly identify themselves? I thought illegal immigrants were...eh, "Illegal"? If you can't prove your an American cititzen...see ya!

That's how it is. It's cut and simple.
All they really need to do is uphold the already existing laws. That's it!
You came in to this country illegally, you are in violation of our laws.
How can it be any difficult to understand!

baja
07-07-2010, 07:01 PM
That's how it is. It's cut and simple.
All they really need to do is uphold the already existing laws. That's it!
You came in to this country illegally, you are in violation of our laws.
How can it be any difficult to understand!

Do you think a national idenity card that every American must carry just like you must carry your drivers licanse and present when asked for by athorties is a good idea?

cutthemdown
07-07-2010, 07:38 PM
I'm against police stopping us to ask for our papers.

People who support that are crazy.

You can fix this problem without being stupid.

cutthemdown
07-07-2010, 07:39 PM
Nope - it would lose the president willing the latino vote. That's exactly why nothing is being done today or has been done for years and years. I imagine that vote is worth some dead americans in the candidates eyes.

I could see it happening because American Latinos support it. Like a total collapse of the Mexican govt and/or military.

Hamrob
07-07-2010, 07:49 PM
Arresting legal citizens for not having a birth certificate on them is a problem. Pulling people over on fake charges (like going 1-2 MPH over the speed limit) because they "look" illegal is a problem.

But continue to oversimplify the issue. It's much easier. See ya!You're not going to need to have to have your birth certificate...just a drivers license or Social Security card. The officers only need to verify the SSN and your cool. What's so bad about that?

It's not like they're going to ship them off that very instant...but, if they're found to be "Illegal" they're going to get their "Illegal" asses shipped back to where they come from.

It's the law!

Archer81
07-07-2010, 08:06 PM
I'm against police stopping us to ask for our papers.

People who support that are crazy.

You can fix this problem without being stupid.


Most states require you to have a form of identification. That ID is your "papers". If you have one, then this statement is ridiculous.

I really doubt the police in AZ will pull someone over for "looking latino" when half the state is latino. I also think its ridiculous that the state of Arizona is branded as racist for doing what the federal government fails to do...AZ legislators copied and pasted FEDERAL law into the state code...so is the federal law and requirements racist?

:Broncos:

Garcia Bronco
07-07-2010, 09:31 PM
If you drive, and most of you do, you need your papers. If you want to drink or buy alcohol in a public establishment, you need your papers. Fly aircraft? Papers please. Health insurance? Better bring your papers. Employment? Fill out this I-9 and two forms of papers please.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
07-07-2010, 10:05 PM
You're not going to need to have to have your birth certificate...just a drivers license or Social Security card. The officers only need to verify the SSN and your cool. What's so bad about that?

It's not like they're going to ship them off that very instant...but, if they're found to be "Illegal" they're going to get their "Illegal" asses shipped back to where they come from.

It's the law!

And it still allows for profiling of anyone of a certain color. As long as that is a part of it -- even though the law specifically mentions that profiling is against the law, it's not hard to claim someone ran a red light or was going 5 MPH over or made an illegal lane shift -- I'm against it.

Homer Simpson
07-07-2010, 10:05 PM
What's the problem with asking people to properly identify themselves? I thought illegal immigrants were...eh, "Illegal"? If you can't prove your an American cititzen...see ya!

http://moranswithsigns.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/moran-sign.jpg

Are you aware you can reside and work in the USA legally without being a citizen?

http://i26.tinypic.com/155hwef.jpg

azbroncfan
07-07-2010, 11:23 PM
http://moranswithsigns.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/moran-sign.jpg

Are you aware you can reside and work in the USA legally without being a citizen?

http://i26.tinypic.com/155hwef.jpg

On a work VISA that last's only a certain amount of time.

azbroncfan
07-07-2010, 11:27 PM
I'm against police stopping us to ask for our papers.

People who support that are crazy.

You can fix this problem without being stupid.

Well 70 percent of the people voted for it.

broncocalijohn
07-07-2010, 11:37 PM
Arresting legal citizens for not having a birth certificate on them is a problem. Pulling people over on fake charges (like going 1-2 MPH over the speed limit) because they "look" illegal is a problem.

But continue to oversimplify the issue. It's much easier. See ya!

over simplify? How about you accusing every officer that they cant be trusted? Why stop with the AZ law and just have no speeding tickets because we cant trust an officer to really pull over a colored folk just driving the speed limit.

broncocalijohn
07-07-2010, 11:40 PM
[IMG]
Are you aware you can reside and work in the USA legally without being a citizen?



Are you aware that those in the country with a work or student visa (or visiting for vacation) must have on body and ready to show if asked? That law has been around since the 1940s and the paper is the size of about a plane voucher/boarding pass.

El Guapo
07-08-2010, 05:20 AM
America has spoken (through msnbc no less!):

http://world-news.newsvine.com/_question/2010/05/13/4274124-do-you-support-arizonas-tough-new-law-on-illegal-immigration

TheElusiveKyleOrton
07-08-2010, 07:14 AM
over simplify? How about you accusing every officer that they cant be trusted? Why stop with the AZ law and just have no speeding tickets because we cant trust an officer to really pull over a colored folk just driving the speed limit.

I never accused anyone of anything. An excellent attempt to pigeonhole me though. As usual, you're incapable of actually having a debate without resorting to shrill nonsense.

So tell me, Johnny, which is more likely? That SOME officers might take a law like this and interpret it their own way, in line with their own political beliefs? Or that NONE OF THEM will, regardless of their personal beliefs?

My problem with this law is that it could infringe on ONE PERSON'S civil rights. And that is NOT an America I want to live in.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
07-08-2010, 07:16 AM
America has spoken (through msnbc no less!):

http://world-news.newsvine.com/_question/2010/05/13/4274124-do-you-support-arizonas-tough-new-law-on-illegal-immigration

Nothing like an unscientific web poll to make your point. /rolleyes

Let me guess: as a Maverick, you think Palin is competent.

TailgateNut
07-08-2010, 08:06 AM
I never accused anyone of anything. An excellent attempt to pigeonhole me though. As usual, you're incapable of actually having a debate without resorting to shrill nonsense.

So tell me, Johnny, which is more likely? That SOME officers might take a law like this and interpret it their own way, in line with their own political beliefs? Or that NONE OF THEM will, regardless of their personal beliefs?

My problem with this law is that it could infringe on ONE PERSON'S civil rights. And that is NOT an America I want to live in.

So, everyone who doesn't subscribe to your line of thought utters "shrill nonsense". Some of us (based on polls, most of US) expect laws to be enforced, and if a few feelings are hurt in the process, so be it.

Homer Simpson
07-08-2010, 08:07 AM
On a work VISA that last's only a certain amount of time.

No, that's not right. You can be a permanent resident without ever becoming a citizen. Perhaps it can be seen as nit picking but when people make sweeping comments along the lines of "if you ain't a citizen, see ya!" the ignorance scares me.

Homer Simpson
07-08-2010, 08:07 AM
Are you aware that those in the country with a work or student visa (or visiting for vacation) must have on body and ready to show if asked? That law has been around since the 1940s and the paper is the size of about a plane voucher/boarding pass.

Absolutely, as I posted above, that wasn't my point.

El Guapo
07-08-2010, 08:20 AM
Nothing like an unscientific web poll to make your point. /rolleyes

Let me guess: as a Maverick, you think Palin is competent.
Negative. Nice try though!

Hamrob
07-08-2010, 09:35 AM
And it still allows for profiling of anyone of a certain color. As long as that is a part of it -- even though the law specifically mentions that profiling is against the law, it's not hard to claim someone ran a red light or was going 5 MPH over or made an illegal lane shift -- I'm against it.Understood. Personally, I think illegal immagrants are only a small part of the problem that exists here in the States.

The real problem is the rate at which impoverished citizens or illegal aliens for that matter are having kids.

If you take a look at the population growth in this country, you'll see that we are growing at a rate that we simply can't afford...primarily because 80% of our population growth comes from or are classified as coming from the "Poor".

We don't have a welfare system that can support it and adding costs such as free health care to this hugely increasing problem only intensifies the situation.

When are we going to quit being 100% PC in this country and have the balls to say...it's not o.k. to having kids when you can't afford to pay your own bills. When are we going to not be afraid to say, when you're on welfare and keep having 2, 3, 4 or more children...that it is WRONG!

Until we tackle the root cause (above) all these other arguments are pointless...really!

Homer Simpson
07-08-2010, 09:44 AM
When are we going to quit being 100% PC in this country and have the balls to say...it's not o.k. to having kids when you can't afford to pay your own bills. When are we going to not be afraid to say, when you're on welfare and keep having 2, 3, 4 or more children...that it is WRONG!


Exactly! China has the right idea...

TailgateNut
07-08-2010, 10:06 AM
Understood. Personally, I think illegal immagrants are only a small part of the problem that exists here in the States.

The real problem is the rate at which impoverished citizens or illegal aliens for that matter are having kids.

If you take a look at the population growth in this country, you'll see that we are growing at a rate that we simply can't afford...primarily because 80% of our population growth comes from or are classified as coming from the "Poor".

We don't have a welfare system that can support it and adding costs such as free health care to this hugely increasing problem only intensifies the situation.

When are we going to quit being 100% PC in this country and have the balls to say...it's not o.k. to having kids when you can't afford to pay your own bills. When are we going to not be afraid to say, when you're on welfare and keep having 2, 3, 4 or more children...that it is WRONG!

Until we tackle the root cause (above) all these other arguments are pointless...really!


You better DUCK, 'cause the PC crowd will surely bash you for suggesting that we "trample" on someones' civil rights, even though they are using and abusing the system, because it's set up for abuse.

I agree that those who can't afford to feed themselves should not be burdening our system with their breeding. The numbers of recipients of "free/reduced" lunch and school fees in my daughters' school district is
ridiculous. As long as someone doesn't step up to the plate and passes legislation limiting the amount of "freebies" based on family size, this trend of breeding like rabbits will continue amongst the poor and hispanic population (legal and illegal).

It's simple: If ya can't support your family either "keep your dick in your pants or wear a g-damn condom". **** all that religious nonsense.

broncocalijohn
07-08-2010, 11:39 AM
I never accused anyone of anything. An excellent attempt to pigeonhole me though. As usual, you're incapable of actually having a debate without resorting to shrill nonsense.

So tell me, Johnny, which is more likely? That SOME officers might take a law like this and interpret it their own way, in line with their own political beliefs? Or that NONE OF THEM will, regardless of their personal beliefs?

My problem with this law is that it could infringe on ONE PERSON'S civil rights. And that is NOT an America I want to live in.

You are afraid police officers will interpret it in their own way which could be with any law. I applied it to speeding tickets with police pulling over colored folks which is an example that you try to apply the AZ law with. So, if you cant trust AZ cops of the immigration law (which sheriff Joe has had in effect for 2 years with very few civil rights cases going to court) then why have them have a personality or what they are trained for? Sure, some cops make mistakes while patrolling but what makes this law different? These guys are trained to know the law and have been working on this one for months now to be ready for August (those that havent been already doing the fed law). You dont like it because of your political leanings and have no idea how to enforce the FEDERAL LAW! Federal troops or detectives cannot do what thousands are already doing and that is to protect the law. Remmeber, any law can infringe on ONE PERSON's civil rights. Either stop all laws or trust that the police will protect and serve.

azbroncfan
07-08-2010, 11:59 AM
No, that's not right. You can be a permanent resident without ever becoming a citizen. Perhaps it can be seen as nit picking but when people make sweeping comments along the lines of "if you ain't a citizen, see ya!" the ignorance scares me.

AKA "Green Card" there are way too many people with out it that don't pay taxes and other BS.

Tombstone RJ
07-08-2010, 02:10 PM
News flash for those who know nothing: the federal government "claims" that they're the only gov't entity that has a right to oversee immigration... because they're the only gov't entity that has the right to oversee immigration.

Please continue to blame Obama for a problem that's 40+ years old. Your ignorance makes me giggle.

News flash the fed have failed at their job and Obama is at the top and has the power to enfluence the justice department on their ignorant and stupid move to sue AZ.

At the very least Obama can be nuetral, but his rhetoric says he's not.

HE SUCKS.

baja
07-08-2010, 02:15 PM
News flash the fed have failed at their job and Obama is at the top and has the power to enfluence the justice department on their ignorant and stupid move to sue AZ.

At the very least Obama can be nuetral, but his rhetoric says he's not.

HE SUCKS.


He doesn't suck but he is not presidential and is no leader. Far as I can tell he is still campaining

Tombstone RJ
07-08-2010, 02:26 PM
Tombstone, I understand that you don't like Obama. But do you suppose that the Shrub, Clinton, or Bush Senior would have done any differently than sue Arizona?

When 20 states are already considering (or have adopted) resolutions about states rights and restricting the reach of the federals, there's just no way they could not take Arizona to court. That would make a huge statement and set a dangerous (for the federal govt) precedent about states rights. Preservation of the status quo is the modus vivendi for the majority of people in DC. Self-maintenance of the bureaucracy eventually becomes the reason for existence of any bureaucracy.

"It's very hard to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on not understanding it." -- Upton Sinclair

I'm calling BS on all of this crap (fed gov stuff).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but would the federal goverment exist without the states? That is, who serves who?

I'm of the opinion that the fed gov is becoming such a monstrosity that it is choosing to serve itself rather than the people or the states.

Yes, the fed gov is responsible for immigration and yes, they are failing at their job. Instead of suing AZ they should instead acknowledge their failure to get the job done and grant AZ temporary rights to enforce federal law and help AZ enforce the law.

The justice department can then have get their own house in order and do what they need to do to correct their crappy ways.

Instead, they are paying lawyers to sue a state. GREAT WORK FEDS!

Tombstone RJ
07-08-2010, 02:28 PM
He doesn't suck but he is not presidential and is no leader. Far as I can tell he is still campaining

When a publicly chastises AZ for enforcing a law, and sides with a foreign power like Mexico.HE.HAS.LOST.MY.RESPECT.PERIOD.

baja
07-08-2010, 03:05 PM
When a publicly chastises AZ for enforcing a law, and sides with a foreign power like Mexico.HE.HAS.LOST.MY.RESPECT.PERIOD.

The issue with Az is they are assuming power that is reserved for the federal government, that is what the suit is about.

Blueflame
07-08-2010, 03:27 PM
The issue with Az is they are assuming power that is reserved for the federal government, that is what the suit is about.

Yep. The question is whether or not states have the right to enact legislation that contradicts and/or supersedes the U.S. Constitution (in this case, the 14th Amendment).

bronclvr
07-08-2010, 03:45 PM
Yep. The question is whether or not states have the right to enact legislation that contradicts and/or supersedes the U.S. Constitution (in this case, the 14th Amendment).

Are there any other remedies or actions that Arizona could have taken to force the Federal Gov't to enforce Laws (already on the books) that affect this issue other than what they have done? It's obvous the issue is such a hot potatoe that no elected official (outside of Brewer) wants to touch it-

I realize that Obama has to make certain that he doesn't end up with a bunch of "rogue" States enacting their own Laws (Utah is moving forward with their own interpretation), but it sucks that no one can seem to get Laws enforced-

baja
07-08-2010, 03:51 PM
Are there any other remedies or actions that Arizona could have taken to force the Federal Gov't to enforce Laws (already on the books) that affect this issue other than what they have done? It's obvous the issue is such a hot potatoe that no elected official (outside of Brewer) wants to touch it-

I realize that Obama has to make certain that he doesn't end up with a bunch of "rogue" States enacting their own Laws (Utah is moving forward with their own interpretation), but it sucks that no one can seem to get Laws enforced-
what and loose all that cheap labor that has zero rights. Americans like their slaves.

Blueflame
07-08-2010, 03:56 PM
Are there any other remedies or actions that Arizona could have taken to force the Federal Gov't to enforce Laws (already on the books) that affect this issue other than what they have done? It's obvous the issue is such a hot potatoe that no elected official (outside of Brewer) wants to touch it-

I realize that Obama has to make certain that he doesn't end up with a bunch of "rogue" States enacting their own Laws (Utah is moving forward with their own interpretation), but it sucks that no one can seem to get Laws enforced-

What "I" think needs to be done in order to address the issue of illegal immigration... is to identify and prosecute any corporation that employs said illegal immigrants. Just like a weed in your backyard, if you don't go after the root of the problem, your efforts are wasted and/or will be minimally effective.

Enforcing existing federal laws would be a good start. But the reason for the lawsuit is to clarify whether or not a state law can take precedence over federal law. I honestly cannot imagine any scenario in which Arizona wins this lawsuit in a federal court... which means going to trial is most likely a waste of time and money.

El Guapo
07-08-2010, 07:36 PM
The issue with Az is they are assuming power that is reserved for the federal government, that is what the suit is about.

Only because it is convenient and what the fed can use to file a lawsuit against the state. Obama had said himself that he thinks its racial profiling (before he even read the law of course...).

baja
07-08-2010, 07:41 PM
Only because it is convenient and what the fed can use to file a lawsuit against the state. Obama had said himself that he thinks its racial profiling (before he even read the law of course...).

than why not prosacute that angle. Racial profiling is against the law too.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
07-08-2010, 09:48 PM
What "I" think needs to be done in order to address the issue of illegal immigration... is to identify and prosecute any corporation that employs said illegal immigrants. Just like a weed in your backyard, if you don't go after the root of the problem, your efforts are wasted and/or will be minimally effective.

Enforcing existing federal laws would be a good start. But the reason for the lawsuit is to clarify whether or not a state law can take precedence over federal law. I honestly cannot imagine any scenario in which Arizona wins this lawsuit in a federal court... which means going to trial is most likely a waste of time and money.

Yes yes yes yes yes. THIS.

If you don't take the job opportunities away, I don't care if all 50 states enact a law like Arizona's. They'll be half measures.

Kill off what draws them to this country. Period.

cutthemdown
07-08-2010, 09:53 PM
If you drive, and most of you do, you need your papers. If you want to drink or buy alcohol in a public establishment, you need your papers. Fly aircraft? Papers please. Health insurance? Better bring your papers. Employment? Fill out this I-9 and two forms of papers please.

fine then if you happen to find out they aren't legal then deal with it. But you don't pull over, ever, to ask who you are just for the sake of doing it. We only get stopped in this country when we do something wrong. Go ahead and make papers needed to get things done. Just dont be able to walk up to someone and ask them out of the blue.

cutthemdown
07-08-2010, 09:55 PM
What "I" think needs to be done in order to address the issue of illegal immigration... is to identify and prosecute any corporation that employs said illegal immigrants. Just like a weed in your backyard, if you don't go after the root of the problem, your efforts are wasted and/or will be minimally effective.

Enforcing existing federal laws would be a good start. But the reason for the lawsuit is to clarify whether or not a state law can take precedence over federal law. I honestly cannot imagine any scenario in which Arizona wins this lawsuit in a federal court... which means going to trial is most likely a waste of time and money.

exactly. I don't want my latino friends telling me stories about how they get pulled over more because of stuff like this. Police love to stop people it just gives them something more to abuse IMO.

Make it to where you cant have bank account, cant cash checks, can't buy insurance, can't get a job, can't put kids in school, can't use health system, can't do crap. Those things I dont mind showing my ID for.

cutthemdown
07-08-2010, 09:56 PM
no way though will i want to live in a country were we get stopped and asked if we are American. I'm sorry Mr Hernandez but your papers are not in order!!!!! WHAT!!!! CHECK them again!!!!

broncocalijohn
07-08-2010, 11:45 PM
no way though will i want to live in a country were we get stopped and asked if we are American. I'm sorry Mr Hernandez but your papers are not in order!!!!! WHAT!!!! CHECK them again!!!!

why do u keep coming back to this? It isnt Nazi Germany. You get asked when you do something wrong. So dont worry the gastapo isnt coming after you. If you are not a citizen, you better keep the mandatory papers on you as the law states from back in the 40s. Nothing new just finally bringing the law to the land. Cant wait until we have a proposition that will stand up to the courts unlike the one we had 15 years ago.

Champagne Powder
07-09-2010, 12:20 AM
My hero

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/4410/elchapoqy0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

TheElusiveKyleOrton
07-09-2010, 06:20 AM
why do u keep coming back to this? It isnt Nazi Germany. You get asked when you do something wrong. So dont worry the gastapo isnt coming after you. If you are not a citizen, you better keep the mandatory papers on you as the law states from back in the 40s. Nothing new just finally bringing the law to the land. Cant wait until we have a proposition that will stand up to the courts unlike the one we had 15 years ago.

Or you get asked when your skin is the wrong color. Why do you think that would never ever ever ever happen? Do you not live in reality with the rest of us?

Pontius Pirate
07-09-2010, 09:36 AM
What "I" think needs to be done in order to address the issue of illegal immigration... is to identify and prosecute any corporation that employs said illegal immigrants. Just like a weed in your backyard, if you don't go after the root of the problem, your efforts are wasted and/or will be minimally effective.

Enforcing existing federal laws would be a good start. But the reason for the lawsuit is to clarify whether or not a state law can take precedence over federal law. I honestly cannot imagine any scenario in which Arizona wins this lawsuit in a federal court... which means going to trial is most likely a waste of time and money.

Arizona already does this. They are one of the toughest in the country. The problem is that most of the employment of illegals (in AZ) is through smaller mom & pop outfits and on farms. The funny thing is that illegals in Phoenix (and in many SW cities) will just stand around on a corner outside of Home Depot waiting for some contractor, or dude doing housework, to pick them up and pay them under the table for simple labor. Since "employer" doesn't really apply in these situations, there is no way to "sting" those type of situations. I.e. there is no corporation consipiring against the law. And if the cops did try to sting it, it would be "racisit." Hence SB1070 requiring the cops to sting it.

Tombstone RJ
07-09-2010, 09:50 AM
Yep. The question is whether or not states have the right to enact legislation that contradicts and/or supersedes the U.S. Constitution (in this case, the 14th Amendment).

The 14th Amendment does not protect illegal immigrants or non-naturalized citizens. Its political correctness that is hampering justice is this country, not the fact that AZ wants to actually protect its border with Mexico.

If you are a citizen of the US, there is nothing to worry about. Countries like Mexico enforce their laws with no problem, that is, if they think you are not a citizen they will make you produce documentation.

However, here in the US where political correctness rules the day, our police can't ask for documents because they might inconvinience a few naturalized and legal citizens.

In other countries, this is ok because they are enforcing the law. In the US, it's not ok because it's deemed racial profiling.

Tombstone RJ
07-09-2010, 10:00 AM
Or you get asked when your skin is the wrong color. Why do you think that would never ever ever ever happen? Do you not live in reality with the rest of us?

Again with this crap? Would it make you feel better if the cop was a Latino or a Black or an Asian?

Can you sleep at night if that is the case?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
07-09-2010, 10:02 AM
Again with this crap? Would it make you feel better if the cop was a Latino or a Black or an Asian?

Can you sleep at night if that is the case?

Would it make me feel better? Why would that make any difference at all?

I sleep fine at night, thank you. I'm not out witch hunting like, ahem, some of you.

Tombstone RJ
07-09-2010, 10:04 AM
Would it make me feel better? Why would that make any difference at all?

I sleep fine at night, thank you. I'm not out witch hunting like, ahem, some of you.

weak

baja
07-09-2010, 10:06 AM
weak

No this is weak.

Again with this crap? Would it make you feel better if the cop was a Latino or a Black or an Asian?

cutthemdown
07-09-2010, 10:19 AM
I've had cops lie and say they pulled me over because I was speeding when I knew I wasn't. Then they basically see if your drunk or have anyone in car with a warrant. Then they let you go.

Now it will be let's stop them for something, then see if they are legal or not.

I get it, you want illegals either to be legal paying there way or gone. I agree with you. I just don't think states making own laws on this is the way to go.

Obama is blowing it, but Reagan, Bush SR, JR, Clinton all blew it also. Not sure if this was already a problem under Carter but I was so young then i can't know.

cutthemdown
07-09-2010, 10:22 AM
how do you expect me to feel. I have a ton of Latino American friends who don't like this law. I have to go with them because it doesn't really matter as much to me. I think they are good hard workers and what you want to get rid of is the ones in prison, dealing drugs, doing crimes. Not the ones on the corner looking for a days work. At least not like most at the unemployment office looking for a handout.

cutthemdown
07-09-2010, 10:26 AM
The Arizona law is not the way to do it. Get over it. Courts will strike it down as they should. And this is coming from a state rights person. This however can not be a state issue. It has feds written all over it.

TailgateNut
07-09-2010, 10:57 AM
Would it make me feel better? Why would that make any difference at all?

I sleep fine at night, thank you. I'm not out witch hunting like, ahem, some of you.

No, you'ld prefer not to catch those who are breaking the law, because in doing so you might upset a few innocent citizens.

barryr
07-09-2010, 11:16 AM
Yes, let's give it to the feds to do while they continue to do nothing. If the feds were really going to follow federal law, then AZ would have gotten rid of their new law by now and let the feds handle it. Obama and his admin. has no interest in protecting the borders, as well as the majority of politicians. I find it comical how some are so staunch in their belief AZ shouldn't be allowed to protect its own border and believe it's up to the feds when they haven't done a ****ing thing about in decades.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
07-09-2010, 11:22 AM
No, you'ld prefer not to catch those who are breaking the law, because in doing so you might upset a few innocent citizens.

You really can't have a discussion without being shrill, can you TGN? Are you just incapable of having a grown up conversation without resorting to bull**** "you just don't want to catch people breaking the law!" nonsense.

It's pathetic. It would be funny if it weren't so childish.

It's not about "upsetting" a few innocent citizens. It's about "arresting" and "trampling the civil rights of" a few innocent citizens.

And what's more, THERE ARE BETTER ****ING WAYS OF DOING THIS. Like cutting off the jobs that these people are coming to this country for. Until you make any REAL strides in that direction, a law like this is trampling civil rights for NO reason.

Christ. Pull your head out of your ass.

"TGN just wants to trample civil rights!" See what a ridiculous argument that is? I know that's not your intent, but to make my point, I'll accuse you of something ridiculous. It's the reasoning of a five year old, which is why I don't use it. Try to grow up.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
07-09-2010, 11:24 AM
Yes, let's give it to the feds to do while they continue to do nothing. If the feds were really going to follow federal law, then AZ would have gotten rid of their new law by now and let the feds handle it. Obama and his admin. has no interest in protecting the borders, as well as the majority of politicians. I find it comical how some are so staunch in their belief AZ shouldn't be allowed to protect its own border and believe it's up to the feds when they haven't done a ****ing thing about in decades.

Yep. It's all Obama's fault. When it was happening under Reagan and Bush I and Clinton and Bush II, it was Obama's fault then, too.

When you cut off the jobs, you'll be a step closer to solving this problem. Until you do that, a law like this is completely inane. "OKay, we arrested and sent back 150 people today! 125 will be back tomorrow because there are still jobs here, but STILL! Look how many people we got rid of! Hooray!" what an absolutely ****ing retarded idea.

barryr
07-09-2010, 11:35 AM
Yep. It's all Obama's fault. When it was happening under Reagan and Bush I and Clinton and Bush II, it was Obama's fault then, too.

When you cut off the jobs, you'll be a step closer to solving this problem. Until you do that, a law like this is completely inane. "OKay, we arrested and sent back 150 people today! 125 will be back tomorrow because there are still jobs here, but STILL! Look how many people we got rid of! Hooray!" what an absolutely ****ing retarded idea.

I said nothing has been about this for decades, so how did I put the blame just on Obama? No, securing the border is what is needed first. Without jobs, many will turn to crime if are not sent back, which they have already done, which is why AZ decided to do this in the first place. You just stated they will be back tomorrow if sent back. The **** they would if the border was being protected like the federal government is supposed to be doing in the first place. If the feds were doing its job, this wouldn't be an issue.

TailgateNut
07-09-2010, 11:55 AM
Yep. It's all Obama's fault. When it was happening under Reagan and Bush I and Clinton and Bush II, it was Obama's fault then, too.

When you cut off the jobs, you'll be a step closer to solving this problem. Until you do that, a law like this is completely inane. "OKay, we arrested and sent back 150 people today! 125 will be back tomorrow because there are still jobs here, but STILL! Look how many people we got rid of! Hooray!" what an absolutely ****ing retarded idea.


Here's another "shrill" tidbit: Using your analogy, maybe we can stop bank robbers be closing all the banks, in lieu of arresting them after the fact (after they broke the law).

These MFing Illegal migrants have broken the law and we should just turn our backs and act as if it's fine and dandy and the only one's at fault are the employers.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
07-09-2010, 12:07 PM
Here's another "shrill" tidbit: Using your analogy, maybe we can stop bank robbers be closing all the banks, in lieu of arresting them after the fact (after they broke the law).

These MFing Illegal migrants have broken the law and we should just turn our backs and act as if it's fine and dandy and the only one's at fault are the employers.

And again you take the most overly-simplistic view and just run with it. Don't know why I'm surprised. I shouldn't be.

Did I ever say that the ONLY thing we should do is punish the employers? Did I? No. It's the FIRST STEP that needs to be taken. Take away the reason they come here. THEN (this is what we call "step two," TGN, since this is a bigger problem than one solution can fix... at least here in the real world), you focus on finding and moving the illegal people back across the border, OR move towards citizenship for them as well.

I know, I know, it would be so awful to offer these folks a path to citizenship, but... would it really be THAT awful? I'm not talking about just making them full citizens. If they want to work for it, they can. And if they stop working towards citizenship, they're taken out of the country.

It would be a ****load more accurate than trying to find illegal needles in a haystack. Offer them a road to citizenship. Register them that way. Move them through the process.

Or, I guess, you could just arrest anyone who looks Mexican. That would probably be as effective.

Retarded.

By the way: Your bank robber analogy is a poor one. If bank robbery suspects were listed simply as "a mexican looking man" you might have something, but that's not how it works. Under the arizona law we're talking about here, EVERYONE is a suspect. It's absurd.

baja
07-09-2010, 12:17 PM
Some of you have no idea about the world you live in.

Your puppet masters want the cheap exploitable labor what is so hard to understand about that. I think it is as obvious as the nose on your face.

24champ
07-09-2010, 12:23 PM
What's the point of having an immigration policy or borders if we're not going to enforce it?

Why is it ok for Mexico to check for papers and deport people that do not have the proper identification to be in Mexico but not for the United States to do the same?:giggle:

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TheElusiveKyleOrton
07-09-2010, 12:25 PM
I guess I thought we were a better country than Mexico. With more freedoms and actual civil rights.

Guess not. We should strive to be just like them, I suppose.

broncocalijohn
07-09-2010, 12:26 PM
Or you get asked when your skin is the wrong color. Why do you think that would never ever ever ever happen? Do you not live in reality with the rest of us?

like i stated before knucklehead. Come out and say you dont trust cops and that we should have no speeding tickets since cops can pull u over by the basis of your skin. You can go on oand on but the main point is that you think cops are corrupt (at least enough to not pass a law). Come out and just say it but be consistent with everything not just this law.
Moose, the law doesnt make everyone a suspect. Please just read it unlike Obama and see that you need to do a crime first. If an illegal alien is reporting that someone broke into their house, they are not being asked if they have their paperwork to be in the country. Therefore, your point is, well, pointless. Have facts straight before exposing them to the forum.

Tombstone RJ
07-09-2010, 12:30 PM
I've had cops lie and say they pulled me over because I was speeding when I knew I wasn't. Then they basically see if your drunk or have anyone in car with a warrant. Then they let you go.

Now it will be let's stop them for something, then see if they are legal or not.

I get it, you want illegals either to be legal paying there way or gone. I agree with you. I just don't think states making own laws on this is the way to go.

Obama is blowing it, but Reagan, Bush SR, JR, Clinton all blew it also. Not sure if this was already a problem under Carter but I was so young then i can't know.

I hate to sound too preachy but a leader leads. Obama is not leading on this issue, he is backsliding and blaming and pointing fingers and being an overall moron about the whole thing.

He's not qualified to be the president and this demonstrates exactly why he's not qualified.

The oil spill is another indication he doesn't have a clue. If Bush was still in office, the lefties would be crucifying him and yet Obama is getting a free pass for doing nothing.

The hypocrisy of the left is just astounding. Really, it is.

I'm calling Obama out on being a moron and completely out of touch with the country. He's way more interested in protecting lobbyists and unions rather than LEADING the country duing difficult times.

baja
07-09-2010, 12:31 PM
I guess I thought we were a better country than Mexico. With more freedoms and actual civil rights.

Guess not. We should strive to be just like them, I suppose.

Please ask yourself what is the only reason we do not inforse the laws already on the books

Hint there is only one possable answer.

Very powerful people want the illegal workers here.

Hercules Rockefeller
07-09-2010, 12:31 PM
What's the point of having an immigration policy or borders if we're not going to enforce it?

Why is it ok for Mexico to check for papers and deport people that do not have the proper identification to be in Mexico but not for the United States to do the same?:giggle:


I really want to see a Congressman introduce a bill that mirrors Mexican immigration law as closely as possible, just to see how people react.

jhns
07-09-2010, 12:34 PM
What is funny about people crying over this law is that cops already ask for proof of citizenship every time they stop any person in this country. It is called your ID. It is all these people have to show. If you don't show an ID in any state, they take you in until they figure out who you are. Arizona is just now taking the extra step of actually doing something about those that are found to be illegal aliens. I'm not sure what all of this racism/profiling talk is about as they are going to ask for those same papers no matter what happens with this law and they will do it for every race.

Tombstone RJ
07-09-2010, 12:36 PM
Some of you have no idea about the world you live in.

Your puppet masters want the cheap exploitable labor what is so hard to understand about that. I think it is as obvious as the nose on your face.

If you want to talk about cheap exploited labor, then look at the country you live in, MEXICO.

Or look at Indonesia, or the Philippines, or India, or China, or El Salvador or any number of other countries that have cheap labor and that the US buys exports from because of the cheap labor.

The US is so enticing to illigal migrants because they are paid much better than in Mexico.

baja
07-09-2010, 12:41 PM
If you want to talk about cheap exploited labor, then look at the country you live in, MEXICO.

Or look at Indonesia, or the Philippines, or India, or China, or El Salvador or any number of other countries that have cheap labor and that the US buys exports from because of the cheap labor.

The US is so enticing to illigal migrants because they are paid much better than in Mexico.


Good point now mail your lawn to Indonesia to get mowed

bronco militia
07-09-2010, 12:47 PM
Good point now mail your lawn to Indonesia to get mowed

what about my windows?!?!?!

Tombstone RJ
07-09-2010, 12:49 PM
Good point now mail your lawn to Indonesia to get mowed

I agree that many people look the other way to hire illegals and I also agree that these people should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. That being said, the non-legals also know who they are and they are not exactly coming out and admitting their culpability either.

Listen, the people who are getting screwed once again are the poor. These non-legal migrants are going to end up being the ones who lose in the end because the freaking dumb ass feds have not done their jobs.

Now we live in a world where we have enemies who want to destroy us from within, plus all the drug cartels that are waring among themselves and with the Mexican police. It's a big crap sandwich for everyone.

Also, many of the non-legals who are in the US have no intention on becoming a US citizen. They simply want to work and send money home and then eventually go back to Mexico or Latin American to be with family. I understand that and I'm ok with that. However, they need to be here with proper identification and with work visas just like all the other people who come from other nations to work in the US.

sisterhellfyre
07-09-2010, 01:00 PM
what about my windows?!?!?!

Clean your screen. A little Windex and a paper towel should do it. Maybe an anti-static wipe if you want to get really fancy.

Blueflame
07-09-2010, 01:29 PM
The 14th Amendment does not protect illegal immigrants or non-naturalized citizens. Its political correctness that is hampering justice is this country, not the fact that AZ wants to actually protect its border with Mexico.

If you are a citizen of the US, there is nothing to worry about. Countries like Mexico enforce their laws with no problem, that is, if they think you are not a citizen they will make you produce documentation.

However, here in the US where political correctness rules the day, our police can't ask for documents because they might inconvinience a few naturalized and legal citizens.

In other countries, this is ok because they are enforcing the law. In the US, it's not ok because it's deemed racial profiling.

Do you genuinely believe that it will only be illegals who will be stopped by police and asked for papers... based primarily on the color of their skin? No... plenty of American citizens will be profiled and targeted for harassment too. And it's those American citizens' 14th Amendment rights that will be violated when (not if) they are stopped and "detained until they can show their papers". Y'know... most people don't routinely carry the original copy of their birth certificate in their car with them... doing so would raise a risk of identity theft if that important document were to be lost or stolen, which is why most people usually keep it in a safe place at home.

Dunno about other states, but here in Washington, you have to show your original birth certificate before obtaining your learner's permit (which means if you have a permit or driver's license, a state licensing agent has seen your proof of citizenship). And if you get the EDL (enhanced driver's license), then you have to show your original birth certificate again... as well as other paperwork that proves precisely where you live.

Again, the "problem employers" of illegal immigrants are not Home Depot customers. If finding a job wasn't pretty easy for the immigrants, then we wouldn't have such a large volume of them coming here. And maybe finding a job wouldn't be so easy for them if there were significant penalties applied to any employer who was found to have hired one.

bronclvr
07-09-2010, 01:41 PM
I think a lot of this is a bunch of hoo-hah-which issue is bigger: the fact that Arizona is losing land it can't Police, the Crime, loss of Jobs, Law enforcement is out-gunned (they say), Drug Cartels threatening local Law Enforcement, etc., etc., or someone might get pulled over because they are Speeding?

This Law has provisions regarding profiling, and if we all think that profiling doesn't happen in every US city we're blind-my Wife was in Phoenix and Tucson this week (she manages some Businesses down there and goes regulary), and it's getting scary-she is particularly concerned when in Tucson (the Business there is on the South side)-

If I'm Speeding, pull me over-want my License, Sir? Here you go-

Tombstone RJ
07-09-2010, 01:54 PM
Do you genuinely believe that it will only be illegals who will be stopped by police and asked for papers... based primarily on the color of their skin? No... plenty of American citizens will be profiled and targeted for harassment too. And it's those American citizens' 14th Amendment rights that will be violated when (not if) they are stopped and "detained until they can show their papers". Y'know... most people don't routinely carry the original copy of their birth certificate in their car with them... doing so would raise a risk of identity theft if that important document were to be lost or stolen, which is why most people usually keep it in a safe place at home.

Dunno about other states, but here in Washington, you have to show your original birth certificate before obtaining your learner's permit (which means if you have a permit or driver's license, a state licensing agent has seen your proof of citizenship). And if you get the EDL (enhanced driver's license), then you have to show your original birth certificate again... as well as other paperwork that proves precisely where you live.

Again, the "problem employers" of illegal immigrants are not Home Depot customers. If finding a job wasn't pretty easy for the immigrants, then we wouldn't have such a large volume of them coming here. And maybe finding a job wouldn't be so easy for them if there were significant penalties applied to any employer who was found to have hired one.

First of all, this is complete and utter speculation on your part. You are creating "what ifs" before anything is being inacted or acted upon. Secondly, it's not "harassment". This is a way for you to justify doing nothing.

Being harassed and being inconvenienced are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS!

This is not Nazi germany for pete's sake. The Gestapo "harassed" people. The police asking for proper identification is NOT harassment. Again, this is flame throwing by you. This a case of you completely blowing the situation out of proportion in order to justify your belief, which is sad.

Blueflame
07-09-2010, 03:06 PM
First of all, this is complete and utter speculation on your part. You are creating "what ifs" before anything is being inacted or acted upon. Secondly, it's not "harassment". This is a way for you to justify doing nothing.

Being harassed and being inconvenienced are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS!

This is not Nazi germany for pete's sake. The Gestapo "harassed" people. The police asking for proper identification is NOT harassment. Again, this is flame throwing by you. This a case of you completely blowing the situation out of proportion in order to justify your belief, which is sad.

It's not speculation... it will happen. Now, I'm not bashing cops in any way, shape or form... but they are human beings and some human beings can and do show bias. The law basically condones racial profiling and it will happen.

Where did I say I wanted to "do nothing"? I've repeatedly said I want the employers held accountable if they fail to verify that all of their employees are in this country legally. "I" think we have to address the root of the problem (cutting off or severely limiting the number of jobs available for illegals here) or it isn't going to be effectively dealt with. The Arizona law (IMHO) is going to be ineffective in its purpose... in addition to marginalizing the civil rights of certain demographic groups (brown-skinned people).

Tombstone RJ
07-09-2010, 03:21 PM
It's not speculation... it will happen. Now, I'm not bashing cops in any way, shape or form... but they are human beings and some human beings can and do show bias. The law basically condones racial profiling and it will happen.

Where did I say I wanted to "do nothing"? I've repeatedly said I want the employers held accountable if they fail to verify that all of their employees are in this country legally. "I" think we have to address the root of the problem (cutting off or severely limiting the number of jobs available for illegals here) or it isn't going to be effectively dealt with. The Arizona law (IMHO) is going to be ineffective in its purpose... in addition to marginalizing the civil rights of certain demographic groups (brown-skinned people).

As another poster has already pointed out, AZ is one of the toughest states in the union on this policy already. Apparently, illegals are still a problem.

One skeleton in the closet that no one is talking about is identity theft. Some illegals are getting hired because they have stole another person's identity and therefore present the proper documentation when being hired. There are loopholes illegals can exploit to get a job. I'm pretty sure alias's are a problem in the illegal immigrant situation and sometimes an employer can be duped even though they are following proper hiring proceedures.

cutthemdown
07-09-2010, 03:25 PM
There just is no need to have to prove you are an American. We don't even want tourists to feel they will have to deal with our police. Hell one guy shot someone and said he thought it was his taser. The less contact we can have with the police the better off we all will be. Let's not make them have to interact with people who aren't obviously committing a crime. They have more important things to do then look for illegals.

The laws to solve this are there. The border needs to be sealed. We need a federal worker program that documents who is in country working and sets forth how much tax they pay. The process to be an American is already there just enforce that.

We need a President with balls and not one has had the guts to tackle immigration.

Broncos_OTM
07-09-2010, 03:56 PM
KYou really can't have a discussion without being shrill, can you TGN? Are you just incapable of having a grown up conversation without resorting to bull**** "you just don't want to catch people breaking the law!" nonsense.

It's pathetic. It would be funny if it weren't so childish.

It's not about "upsetting" a few innocent citizens. It's about "arresting" and "trampling the civil rights of" a few innocent citizens.

And what's more, THERE ARE BETTER ****ING WAYS OF DOING THIS. Like cutting off the jobs that these people are coming to this country for. Until you make any REAL strides in that direction, a law like this is trampling civil rights for NO reason.

Christ. Pull your head out of your ass.

"TGN just wants to trample civil rights!" See what a ridiculous argument that is? I know that's not your intent, but to make my point, I'll accuse you of something ridiculous. It's the reasoning of a five year old, which is why I don't use it. Try to grow up.
No they would be arresting illeval immigrants who have no rights as citizens
Your arguement is weak grasshoppa

Blueflame
07-09-2010, 04:12 PM
As another poster has already pointed out, AZ is one of the toughest states in the union on this policy already. Apparently, illegals are still a problem.

One skeleton in the closet that no one is talking about is identity theft. Some illegals are getting hired because they have stole another person's identity and therefore present the proper documentation when being hired. There are loopholes illegals can exploit to get a job. I'm pretty sure alias's are a problem in the illegal immigrant situation and sometimes an employer can be duped even though they are following proper hiring proceedures.

Obviously they're not doing enough then.

I'm sure the identity theft problem can be alleviated through forcing people to carry their original birth certificate in their car whenever they drive.... talk about an opportunity for a potential identity thief.

I think one of the larger problems re: identity theft just might be the annual reports that Social Security mails out.... every single item of personal information that a potential identity thief would need is listed on that report. If the Post Office misdelivers that letter, it could be really bad... and considering the volume of mail, it's very likely to have happened.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
07-09-2010, 04:50 PM
K
No they would be arresting illeval immigrants who have no rights as citizens
Your arguement is weak grasshoppa

Ideally, you're right. It would only be "illeval" immigrants. Unfortunately, that's simply not necessarily how it would go, as someone could easily be arrested for walking around while Mexican, which is now an arrestable offense in Arizona.

When I run with my dog, I don't take my ID. If I have a tan, and a cop says he saw me not pick up my dog's waste, I can be arrested. Why? Because I don't have my "papers." See how that works, grasshoppa?

Tombstone RJ
07-09-2010, 05:14 PM
Ideally, you're right. It would only be "illeval" immigrants. Unfortunately, that's simply not necessarily how it would go, as someone could easily be arrested for walking around while Mexican, which is now an arrestable offense in Arizona.

When I run with my dog, I don't take my ID. If I have a tan, and a cop says he saw me not pick up my dog's waste, I can be arrested. Why? Because I don't have my "papers." See how that works, grasshoppa?

You seem to know what a "Mexican" looks like and you are the one profiling. I love how it's ok for you to profile because you are "concerned" about a Latino's rights being violated. You seem to be suggesting that there are no white Latinos, why is that? Is it not possible for a Latino to have fair skin? You also seem to be suggesting that anyone with tan skin is only a Mexican, again, why is that?

Irony of the highest order, congrats. :thumbs:

TheElusiveKyleOrton
07-09-2010, 05:19 PM
You seem to know what a "Mexican" looks like and you are the one pofiling. I love how it's ok for you to profile because you are "concerned" about a Latino's rights being violated. You seem to be suggesting that there are no white Latinos, why is that? Is it not possible for a Latino to have fair skin? You also seem to be suggesting that anyone with tan skin is only a Mexican, again, why is that?

Irony of the highest order, congrats. :thumbs:

Holy ****, you're a moron. Congratulations.

It was an example, stupid. Try to catch up with the rest of the class.

Tombstone RJ
07-09-2010, 05:23 PM
Holy ****, you're a moron. Congratulations.

It was an example, stupid. Try to catch up with the rest of the class.

I understand, but you're still profiling. That's ok, I won't call you a racist, I leave that up to alarmists who are trying to use political correctness to justify illegal activity.

Blueflame
07-09-2010, 05:23 PM
You seem to know what a "Mexican" looks like and you are the one profiling. I love how it's ok for you to profile because you are "concerned" about a Latino's rights being violated. You seem to be suggesting that there are no white Latinos, why is that? Is it not possible for a Latino to have fair skin? You also seem to be suggesting that anyone with tan skin is only a Mexican, again, why is that?

Irony of the highest order, congrats. :thumbs:

I'm personally concerned about the possibility of any American citizen's rights being violated.

Tombstone RJ
07-09-2010, 05:27 PM
I'm personally concerned about the possibility of any American citizen's rights being violated.

I agree Blue, it's a difficult situation.

Blueflame
07-09-2010, 05:27 PM
Question for you, Tombstone... if all of these American employers are in fact obeying the law and asking potential employees for IDs and other paperwork... being duped due to the illegals stealing Americans' identities... then just what is the Arizona law going to do to solve illegal immigration? If the illegals have (stolen-identity) ID, then they just show that and go on their merry way, right?

Tombstone RJ
07-09-2010, 05:48 PM
Question for you, Tombstone... if all of these American employers are in fact obeying the law and asking potential employees for IDs and other paperwork... being duped due to the illegals stealing Americans' identities... then just what is the Arizona law going to do to solve illegal immigration? If the illegals have (stolen-identity) ID, then they just show that and go on their merry way, right?

I agree that more needs to be done by the employers to insure that they are not "intentionally" hiring illegals. The big companies (ones that have a human resources department) can usually protect themselves by following proper protocol. The smaller companies (no HR department) are the ones who are at risk if they don't due their due diligence.

The most basic form of personal ID that I can think of is a driver's license, correct? If you cannot get a driver's license then you can still get a photo ID of some kind from the state, correct? It appears to me that this is where the main problem is, that is, if an illegal can get a state ID or DL and they are NOT a naturalized/legal citizen then the system itself is flawed.

I agree that carrying around a birth certificate is moronic and can lead to real abuse and personal harm if the certificate is stolen. That being said, there has to be an in between form of ID that is authentic, verifiable and very hard to counterfit. I know that when I'm hired for a job, I have to produce two forms of ID: a picture ID like a DL and my SS card. If illegals can get these two IDs then there is a real problem with "the system".

So, I guess my answer is to perhaps have a SS card with a picture. Update this SS card/pic every 5 years or so to keep it current. Keep this card/pic in a safe place like a safe. If push comes to shove and the authorities make you produce this ID, then yes it's kind of a hassel but once you show it to them then they know everything is ligit. Call it a US Citizen ID or something to that effect.

Dukes
07-09-2010, 05:55 PM
Question for you, Tombstone... if all of these American employers are in fact obeying the law and asking potential employees for IDs and other paperwork... being duped due to the illegals stealing Americans' identities... then just what is the Arizona law going to do to solve illegal immigration? If the illegals have (stolen-identity) ID, then they just show that and go on their merry way, right?

Except Police can identify a fake ID better than the average business owner.

Dukes
07-09-2010, 06:05 PM
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/nvrsumr/shoot.jpg

Archer81
07-09-2010, 06:10 PM
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/nvrsumr/shoot.jpg



Why do we owe them?



:Broncos:

Blueflame
07-09-2010, 06:26 PM
I agree that more needs to be done by the employers to insure that they are not "intentionally" hiring illegals. The big companies (ones that have a human resources department) can usually protect themselves by following proper protocol. The smaller companies (no HR department) are the ones who are at risk if they don't due their due diligence.

The most basic form of personal ID that I can think of is a driver's license, correct? If you cannot get a driver's license then you can still get a photo ID of some kind from the state, correct? It appears to me that this is where the main problem is, that is, if an illegal can get a state ID or DL and they are NOT a naturalized/legal citizen then the system itself is flawed.

I agree that carrying around a birth certificate is moronic and can lead to real abuse and personal harm if the certificate is stolen. That being said, there has to be an in between form of ID that is authentic, verifiable and very hard to counterfit. I know that when I'm hired for a job, I have to produce two forms of ID: a picture ID like a DL and my SS card. If illegals can get these two IDs then there is a real problem with "the system".

So, I guess my answer is to perhaps have a SS card with a picture. Update this SS card/pic every 5 years or so to keep it current. Keep this card/pic in a safe place like a safe. If push comes to shove and the authorities make you produce this ID, then yes it's kind of a hassel but once you show it to them then they know everything is ligit. Call it a US Citizen ID or something to that effect.

That's just the point though... I believe that the illegal immigration problem exists because "some" (not all, of course, but a significant number) employers do in fact intentionally hire illegals. Because they can pay them less than American citizens, who will require minimum wage and employment paperwork (Medicare and FICA tax withholdings, etc .)

I don't know for sure about other states, but I do know that Washington requires that an original birth certificate (with the raised seal) is shown... along with other paperwork proving residency in order to obtain a driver's license or permit... or a state ID card. And if the applicant is over 18 years old, the requirements are significantly more stringent (driving permits for those under 18 require an original birth certificate + the parent's driver's license to be shown; over 18 require additional paperwork as well... IIRC... 3 pieces of mail like utility bills addressed to the applicant... to prove where they live). And while no Social Security card has to be shown, a valid number (which is checked at the DOL before the ID is issued) must be provided.

The card you're describing (an "enhanced driver's license") does exist in some states (including Washington). It has an RFID chip embedded and the driver's license picture includes facial recognition technology. It would be very nearly impossible to counterfeit an EDL.

Pontius Pirate
07-09-2010, 06:59 PM
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/nvrsumr/shoot.jpg

You realize that's fake, right?

TailgateNut
07-09-2010, 07:04 PM
Holy ****, you're a moron. Congratulations.

It was an example, stupid. Try to catch up with the rest of the class.


Riiiiight!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
07-09-2010, 08:46 PM
I understand, but you're still profiling. That's ok, I won't call you a racist, I leave that up to alarmists who are trying to use political correctness to justify illegal activity.

How am I still profiling exactly? Did I miss the part where I said as an officer I would pull someone over for "looking Mexican" because they have a tan?

DURRRRRRP. Keep digging, Tombstone.

Tombstone RJ
07-10-2010, 10:27 AM
How am I still profiling exactly? Did I miss the part where I said as an officer I would pull someone over for "looking Mexican" because they have a tan?

DURRRRRRP. Keep digging, Tombstone.

I don't need to dig, you are managing to bury yourself with each new post.

BroncoBuff
07-10-2010, 02:51 PM
What "I" think needs to be done in order to address the issue of illegal immigration... is to identify and prosecute any corporation that employs said illegal immigrants.

Ding ding, we have a winner.

We're never gonna succeed fighting the supply side. No matter how many fences we build, no matter how high we build them, we can't stop illegals from crossing the border to work.

Fight the battle on the demand side. Biometrics work card issued for alien workers, forgery-safe, with bar code and bio-metrics (fingerprint and photo is enough). Chuck Schumer says the employer should hold the card and have it at all times the worker is employed with them. Tough to cheat like that. ICE pops in for a surprise check, and you don't have Pancho's card in the safe? Fine. Enforcement would be a lot cheaper.

BroncoBuff
07-10-2010, 02:54 PM
I add an extra twist to the plan, a deliciously evil one: Establish an anonymous 1-800 number anyone can call to report violations. If the violation meets certain criteria, the caller gets a reward check.

Pay the citizens to do the policing.

Tombstone RJ
07-10-2010, 02:56 PM
Ding ding, we have a winner.

We're never gonna succeed fighting the supply side. No matter how many fences we build, no matter how high we build them, we can't stop illegals from crossing the border to work.

Fight the battle on the demand side. Biometrics work card issued for alien workers, forgery-safe, with bar code and bio-metrics (fingerprint and photo is enough). Chuck Schumer says the employer should hold the card and have it at all times the worker is employed with them. Tough to cheat like that. ICE pops in for a surprise check, and you don't have Pancho's card in the safe? Fine. Enforcement would be a lot cheaper.

How about attacking from both sides? If you want to take care of the problem efficiently and without dragging it out then start arresting execs who hire illegals, and fine the hell out of the company and then also enforcing the laws against illegals who know they are here illegally (and the communities that hide them).

Why not both?

Tombstone RJ
07-10-2010, 02:58 PM
I add an extra twist to the plan, a deliciously evil one: Establish an anonymous 1-800 number anyone can call to report violations. If the violation meets certain criteria, the caller gets a reward check.

Pay the citizens to do the policing.

yah, I'm sure Homeland Security can't tap into this line and listen... nah, big brother can't do that, right?

baja
07-10-2010, 03:12 PM
I add an extra twist to the plan, a deliciously evil one: Establish an anonymous 1-800 number anyone can call to report violations. If the violation meets certain criteria, the caller gets a reward check.

Pay the citizens to do the policing.

I always knew you were a rat baastard commrade.

Hitler liked your idea alot too.

BroncoBuff
07-10-2010, 03:26 PM
How about attacking from both sides? If you want to take care of the problem efficiently and without dragging it out then start arresting execs who hire illegals, and fine the hell out of the company and then also enforcing the laws against illegals who know they are here illegally (and the communities that hide them).

Why not both?

Both, definitely both, though I'm thinking criminal liability for execs, no matter how fun it sounds, is a bit much.

The thing about the fines for employers is that it's cheaper. ICE spends a fortune patrolling the border, rounding them up, housing and adjudicating their statuses, and finally deporting them.

As far as the "Sanctuary City" thing you raised ... that always seems like a straw issue to me. Since 1993 when I started practicing law in Los Angeles, no force in L.A. County will arrest based on illegal status. In fact, LAPD and LASD have standing policies not to do so.

Of course the fright wingers never mention that. They'd rather focus on San Francisco. You know, where all the queers and fetus killers live.

And even in SF it's not "sanctuary" if you're arrested. All County Jails and the CDC weed out illegals for deportation at the time of their release. Although the governator want to skip illegals serving prison time, and deport them immediately to save money. Sounds dangerous to me.

Tombstone RJ
07-10-2010, 03:43 PM
Both, definitely both, though I'm thinking criminal liability for execs, no matter how fun it sounds, is a bit much.

The thing about the fines for employers is that it's cheaper. ICE spends a fortune patrolling the border, rounding them up, housing and adjudicating their statuses, and finally deporting them.

As far as the "Sanctuary City" thing you raised ... that always seems like a straw issue to me. Since 1993 when I started practicing law in Los Angeles, no force in L.A. County will arrest based on illegal status. In fact, LAPD and LASD have standing policies not to do so.

Of course the fright wingers never mention that. They'd rather focus on San Francisco. You know, where all the queers and fetus killers live.

And even in SF it's not "sanctuary" if you're arrested. All County Jails and the CDC weed out illegals for deportation at the time of their release. Although the governator want to skip illegals serving prison time, and deport them immediately to save money. Sounds dangerous to me.

not really a strong case you are making for CA, kinda weak.

broncocalijohn
07-10-2010, 03:59 PM
And even in SF it's not "sanctuary" if you're arrested. All County Jails and the CDC weed out illegals for deportation at the time of their release. Although the governator want to skip illegals serving prison time, and deport them immediately to save money. Sounds dangerous to me.


Sorry Buff but not true. SF gets top billing as Sanctuary City is because the city allowed an illegal alien to be released , not to ICE, but back out on the street where he killed a father and two sons. Only did the outrage from the crime did Gavin Newsome do anything to change policy. LA and SF are a bunch of illegal humping cities. It is all for the mighty vote and cheap labor.
Going after supply and demand will work if laws will be able to be passed. Handouts to illegals is what keeps them coming and staying. Free food among other things is something they dont get in their home country.

Pontius Pirate
07-13-2010, 02:15 PM
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/29/goingplaces.jpg

tebowisdabomb
07-13-2010, 05:03 PM
2 words

LAND MINES

Lev Vyvanse
07-13-2010, 09:02 PM
2 words

LAND MINES

Or one. Excellent plan though, it will zip right through congress.

tebowisdabomb
07-16-2010, 05:49 PM
actually build two fences with land mines between the two, clearly mark the fence that land mines are on the other side...
Want to come to America? Fine, get in line behind those who done it the right way and we will be glad you are here.

Problem solved

Dukes
07-16-2010, 05:59 PM
actually build two fences with land mines between the two, clearly mark the fence that land mines are on the other side...
Want to come to America? Fine, get in line behind those who done it the right way and we will be glad you are here.

Problem solved

No, it's not solved. They'll simply continue digging tunnels miles long under the border. A fence is a good first deterrent. Not the final answer.

Archer81
07-16-2010, 07:01 PM
No, it's not solved. They'll simply continue digging tunnels miles long under the border. A fence is a good first deterrent. Not the final answer.


Well...

Being that its 2010, I am sure we can find a second deterrent. We do tag sharks and find out where they go in the ocean...so why not tag illegals? They get caught, they get tagged and shipped back to Mexico. Electronic monitoring and if they come within 5 miles of the border local ICE and state police are notified via email alerts to meet them AT the border.

We could do the same with foreign students coming here on visas or migrant workers who come into the country to work and then leave. The chip/tag can be deactivated when they are here for the length of the visa. When the visa expires the chip activates, notifying local law enforcement and ICE.

Im not kidding, either.

:Broncos: