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TheReverend
07-01-2010, 11:48 PM
Poll inc

Pseudofool
07-01-2010, 11:59 PM
I almost went with TJ but had to go with FDR, the wheel chair cinches it for me. :)

OBF1
07-02-2010, 12:00 AM
FDR,

Had to deal with the great depression and WWII all the while suffering from polio. A great man.

fdf
07-02-2010, 12:21 AM
FDR,

Had to deal with the great depression and WWII all the while suffering from polio. A great man.

I'm mixed about FDR. He blew the great depression big time and in doing that, eviscerated fundamental constitutional provisions that limited congress' powers. OTOH, he was a more than brilliant war leader--perhaps our best ever (Lincoln being his only competitor in that regard). It is amazing that Winston Churchill and FDR were both living at the same time and collaborating on the war--the Nazi's never really stood a chance.

But Washington was the greatest. Hands down. He was offered to be made king of America and turned it down. He refused to be president more than two terms. He not only believed in limited government. He put his money where his mouth was doing an utterly unnatural act--a politician turning down more power that was his to take. He was, in addition, the presence that held the continental army together during the revolution.

Without Washington, the great thinkers like Jefferson, Adams, Madison, Hamilton et al would never have had a country that resembled ours to make great.

My second favorite is Jackson. Again a mixed bag. His treatment of Indians was odious. But he was responsible for breaking the hold the Virginia money folks had on property ownership and for establishing recordable property rights for folks the Virginians considered squatters in the west. That change has a lot to do with America's prosperity today. He also broke the first bank of the United States on the ground that it was accumulating power and then using it's power and money to influence elections. So he saw and destroyed a pernicious institution and whose manner of doing business is a lot like how our interlocking TBTF/Labor Union/Congressional mafia works. Frankly, we need another Jackson today to rip it to shreds.

24champ
07-02-2010, 12:31 AM
http://theamalgam.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/teddy-roosevelt1.jpg

Florida_Bronco
07-02-2010, 12:32 AM
FDR, by far.

Pseudofool
07-02-2010, 12:39 AM
He was offered to be made king of America and turned it down. Wha?

Cool Breeze
07-02-2010, 12:41 AM
By abolishing slavery and reuniting a country torn apart by civil war, honest Abe gets my vote.

TheReverend
07-02-2010, 12:43 AM
Wha?

It's mostly accurate. Quite a few wanted him to be king, and everyone wanted to treat him like a king, and there was no precedent on the volume of terms he could serve, so it's generally accepted that he "turned down" being a King because he refused the treatment and left office after 2 terms. Had he actually wanted to be a king, the congress certainly wouldn't have stood for it and we probably would've had serious infighting and been devoured by the Brits.

Pseudofool
07-02-2010, 12:48 AM
It's mostly accurate. Quite a few wanted him to be king, and everyone wanted to treat him like a king, and there was no precedent on the volume of terms he could serve, so it's generally accepted that he "turned down" being a King because he refused the treatment and left office after 2 terms. Had he actually wanted to be a king, the congress certainly wouldn't have stood for it and we probably would've had serious infighting and been devoured by the Brits.It's a romantic exaggeration at best. Declining to serve more than two terms isn't akin to being offered the anything like the throne. This is more folk-tale myth based on a few specious facts, than real history.

TheReverend
07-02-2010, 12:53 AM
It's a romantic exaggeration at best. Declining to serve more than two terms isn't akin to being offered the anything like the throne. This is more folk-tale myth based on a few specious facts, than real history.

This is what I meant with my "Quite a few wanted him to be king" explanation of fdf's post. Sorry it's kind of a ghetto link:

http://www.laughtergenealogy.com/bin/history/washington2.html

Kaylore
07-02-2010, 01:50 AM
Nice shout out to TMBG "Young hickory."

My vote's for Lincoln (which you could argue is another TMBG vote)


Reagan for modern era.

Andrew Jackson was one of the worst Presidents in history. He was essentially a fascist.

Killericon
07-02-2010, 02:11 AM
Just barely voted for Lincoln over Teddy, but this thread deserves a little bit of this:

Hello, Americans, look at your politician, and now back to me. Now back at your politician, and now back to me.

Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped using shallow talking points and switched to real discourse, he could be like me.

http://intellectualconservative.com/images/trsvlt.jpg

Look down, back up, where are you? You’re on the Great White Fleet with the man your politician could be like.

http://warandgame.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/great_white_fleet_sails-708953.jpg

What’s in your hand, back at me. I have a Square Deal with the trust busting you love. Look at it again, that trust busting is now Progressivism.

http://www.bartleby.com/51/11.gif

Anything is possible when your politician acts like a real statesman and not a self-serving twat. I’m on a horse.

http://www.whitehousemuseum.org/west-wing/roosevelt-room/roosevelt-room-Theodore-Roosevelt-Tade-Styka-1909.jpg (http://www.whitehousemuseum.org/west-wing/roosevelt-room/roosevelt-room-Theodore-Roosevelt-Tade-Styka-1909.jpg)

Credit. (http://redvsblue.com/forum/viewTopic.php?id=2186937&page=357)

UberBroncoMan
07-02-2010, 03:04 AM
Eisenhower minus the Al Bundy. Lincoln was definitely up there.

TDmvp
07-02-2010, 03:43 AM
Considering there might not be a country without Washington , who was a way more than a politician , picking anyone else to me seems to not be acknowledging how uncommon Washington was. From being the best military person we had had the time and also setting up a spy network that he secretly was the head of and being maybe the most selfless president ever...

1st and to me most ...

Broncos_OTM
07-02-2010, 03:56 AM
Nice shout out to TMBG "Young hickory."

My vote's for Lincoln (which you could argue is another TMBG vote)


Reagan for modern era.

Andrew Jackson was one of the worst Presidents in history. He was essentially a fascist.

I guess you havent read much of TJ, Anti Semtic. Although i love this comment The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

FDR was great for the war. Although alot of his polocies he brought in are still haunting us.

Teddy was a guy i could admire.

BroncoBuff
07-02-2010, 04:44 AM
Forgot Clinton ???

brncs_fan
07-02-2010, 05:21 AM
Abraham Lincoln. No president ever inherited a greater problem and was more affected by the Presidency (btw, if you have never read A Team of Rivals then you are missing out)

Washington is more famous for being first than anything else. His actual Presidency was defined more by what he didn't do rather than what he did.

Jefferson gets by on reputation for writing the D of I. His second term as president was atrocious.

Jackson; fascinating figure, awful President.

FDR did a great job with the war but, as previously mentioned, put a a strain on the Constitution and his New Deal policies were ineffective in dealing with the Great Depression

TR would be my #2

JFK was a solid President and navigated us through the most tense situation of the entire cold war.

Eisenhower would be #4

Wilson and Truman were more admirable than great.

brncs_fan
07-02-2010, 05:22 AM
http://www.c-span.org/PresidentialSurvey/Overall-Ranking.aspx

Rohirrim
07-02-2010, 06:10 AM
FDR, Washington and Lincoln are so close, in my mind. All three made enormous contributions to America. Washington set the course and the character example that all the rest are measured against. Lincoln held the country together through the trial of breaking the back of slavery. Both he and FDR stretched the Constitution to achieve their ends. But FDR was faced with a global conflagration and steered the country through, never letting his spirit flag, always showing a resolute optimism that became part of the national character. All three showed extraordinary leadership. But facing a worldwide, destroyed economy and global war on two fronts, I have to give FDR the slight edge.

ColoradoDarin
07-02-2010, 06:20 AM
Washington and it shouldn't even be close. He could have served as long as he wanted to (defacto king) but didn't. Without him, the US as we know it would be something quite different.

I don't get the love for FDR. His policies lengthened the Great Depression by 7 years. It was only the fact that the rest of the world was completely destroyed in the aftermath of WWII which gave us a leg up. I guess I'll blame it on the history taught in this country.

You have Woodrow Wilson up there but not Reagan or Coolidge? Wow. Just wow.

And I couldn't tell you any songs of They Might be Giants, but Polk was pretty darn good in his own right, he ran on a few things, got them done and left after doing so in one term.

McDman
07-02-2010, 07:09 AM
I'm mixed about FDR. He blew the great depression big time and in doing that, eviscerated fundamental constitutional provisions that limited congress' powers. OTOH, he was a more than brilliant war leader--perhaps our best ever (Lincoln being his only competitor in that regard). It is amazing that Winston Churchill and FDR were both living at the same time and collaborating on the war--the Nazi's never really stood a chance.

But Washington was the greatest. Hands down. He was offered to be made king of America and turned it down. He refused to be president more than two terms. He not only believed in limited government. He put his money where his mouth was doing an utterly unnatural act--a politician turning down more power that was his to take. He was, in addition, the presence that held the continental army together during the revolution.

Without Washington, the great thinkers like Jefferson, Adams, Madison, Hamilton et al would never have had a country that resembled ours to make great.

My second favorite is Jackson. Again a mixed bag. His treatment of Indians was odious. But he was responsible for breaking the hold the Virginia money folks had on property ownership and for establishing recordable property rights for folks the Virginians considered squatters in the west. That change has a lot to do with America's prosperity today. He also broke the first bank of the United States on the ground that it was accumulating power and then using it's power and money to influence elections. So he saw and destroyed a pernicious institution and whose manner of doing business is a lot like how our interlocking TBTF/Labor Union/Congressional mafia works. Frankly, we need another Jackson today to rip it to shreds.

I was a history major so this is right up my ally.

It's true Washington was great and turned down the Kingship, but he was very neutral on a lot of points and was not really that active as President. Much of his work was by the hand of Madison, he basically had a massive hand in how Washington ran the country. Both were very smart and capable men, but Hamilton was probably more suited for the role than Washington was.

Because Washington was such of fan of Hamiltonian economic policy it established a system that greatly favored the rich over the poor. Farmers were left on there own while the rich gained favors and exemptions. He also had some other drawbacks, but who didn't I think he is one of the best, but probably not the best.

If I had to choose it has to be Lincoln, far and away. A lot of people will choose FDR for the depression, but many don't realize is that his New Deal failed at getting us out of the depression, it was war that got us out. The New Deal also established a basis of socialism in the country and started the ever growing government's involvement in civilians lives. FDR was great too but I don't think he can stand up to Lincoln.

Lincoln had to deal with by far the most abhorred situation any President has been faced with. He was a great leader and an excellent man. Had he had any competent generals int he first year of the war he would have quelled it very quickly. In fact, very early on General McClellan had the main Confederate army trapped but refused to attack. Lincoln had some drawbacks, he did suspend Habeus Corpus, but he was in the most extreme circumstances one can think of.

McDman
07-02-2010, 07:12 AM
http://www.c-span.org/PresidentialSurvey/Overall-Ranking.aspx

That's actually a pretty good list. I think the top 3 are in the right order. Although I don't know about Teddy, he was the ultimate bad ass, but the dude was racist as all get out. He loved killing him some Panamanians with the rough riders.

Dr. Broncenstein
07-02-2010, 07:13 AM
http://ironkyle.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/teddy-roosevelt.jpg

They shot me in in the chest, biatches. It's gonna take more than that.

McDman
07-02-2010, 07:14 AM
Abraham Lincoln. No president ever inherited a greater problem and was more affected by the Presidency (btw, if you have never read A Team of Rivals then you are missing out)

Washington is more famous for being first than anything else. His actual Presidency was defined more by what he didn't do rather than what he did.

Jefferson gets by on reputation for writing the D of I. His second term as president was atrocious.

Jackson; fascinating figure, awful President.

FDR did a great job with the war but, as previously mentioned, put a a strain on the Constitution and his New Deal policies were ineffective in dealing with the Great Depression

TR would be my #2

JFK was a solid President and navigated us through the most tense situation of the entire cold war.

Eisenhower would be #4

Wilson and Truman were more admirable than great.

Very simple and poignant. I like it.

Dr. Broncenstein
07-02-2010, 07:17 AM
http://henpantha.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/ronald-reagan1.jpg

I see your flesh wound and raise you a massive hemothorax requiring a thoracotomy. Biatches.

crawdad
07-02-2010, 07:21 AM
JFK bucked up against the Russians and told thenm to get the hell out of Cuba. This was one of the most scary moments in my life, with all the bomb shelters and all. JFK brought the country together at that time!

Rohirrim
07-02-2010, 07:21 AM
Every age revises history to suit its own political ends.

Ergo, FDR in some eyes is now seen as almost a criminal.

While in many of those same eyes, Nixon is seen as a hero.

Go figure.

Kaylore
07-02-2010, 07:43 AM
Abraham Lincoln. No president ever inherited a greater problem and was more affected by the Presidency (btw, if you have never read A Team of Rivals then you are missing out)

Washington is more famous for being first than anything else. His actual Presidency was defined more by what he didn't do rather than what he did.

Jefferson gets by on reputation for writing the D of I. His second term as president was atrocious.

Jackson; fascinating figure, awful President.

FDR did a great job with the war but, as previously mentioned, put a a strain on the Constitution and his New Deal policies were ineffective in dealing with the Great Depression

TR would be my #2

JFK was a solid President and navigated us through the most tense situation of the entire cold war.

Eisenhower would be #4

Wilson and Truman were more admirable than great.

Agreed with everything right up to JFK who was not good.

And I couldn't tell you any songs of They Might be Giants, but Polk was pretty darn good in his own right, he ran on a few things, got them done and left after doing so in one term.
Polk left office because he was really, really sick (he died months later). I know people like to give props to him for "doing his job and getting out of there" but the fact is if he wasn't dying he would have run again.

Kaylore
07-02-2010, 07:49 AM
http://henpantha.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/ronald-reagan1.jpg

I see your flesh wound and raise you a massive hemothorax requiring a thoracotomy. Biatches.

And don't forget he broke the curse. Prior to that, like clockwork, every 20 years our Presidents were getting assassinated.

Every age revises history to suit its own political ends.

Ergo, FDR in some eyes is now seen as almost a criminal.
FDR ran a good war and was bailed out by timing. None of his big government policies worked in helping the depression. This is come to be acknowledged universally by academia as fact. What they did do was get the angry mob off his lawn and may have created enough of an illusion of recovery, or that the government was at least, trying to avoid fascist movements across the globe at that time. I don't like how he threatened the Supreme Court every time they didn't rule in his favor. Very Jackson-eque.

crawdad
07-02-2010, 07:51 AM
Agreed with everything right up to JFK who was not good.


If you were alive during that time, you wouldn't be saying this!

Kaylore
07-02-2010, 08:05 AM
If you were alive during that time, you wouldn't be saying this!

I know, which I think makes me impartial as the assassination thing and his pretty hair doesn't cloud my opinion of his policies. I liked a lot of his domestic stuff, but his foreign policy, especially his lack of temperance and heavy hand, almost created a nuclear war.

BroncoBuff
07-02-2010, 08:46 AM
Agreed with everything right up to JFK who was not good.

C'mon Chris, your partisanship is clouding your assessment a bit. There's more to being a great president than policies, wars and the economy. You like Ronald Reagan, he was great in large part because he made Americans proud of their country, confident and optimistic. Kennedy did the exact same thing.

I completely agree with you on Andrew Jackson though ... horrible, even evil man. Somebody should start a petition to get him off the $20. Jackson's last words" "My only regrets in life are that I did not hang John Calhoun and shoot Henry Clay." Calhoun was his VP, Clay Speaker of the House.

Archer81
07-02-2010, 09:16 AM
Lincoln, followed by TR, then Washington.

"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world." A. Lincoln.

:Broncos:

Rohirrim
07-02-2010, 09:18 AM
Only the modern Right wing movement of America would have the gall to suggest that FDR just got lucky that WWII came along and saved his ass. Hilarious!

Archer81
07-02-2010, 09:25 AM
Only the modern Right wing movement of America would have the gall to suggest that FDR just got lucky that WWII came along and saved his ass. Hilarious!


Only the left thinks that having an unemployment rate at 15% for an entire decade is fixing the economy.

But we have had this argument before, and that is not the focus of the poll.

:Broncos:

Kaylore
07-02-2010, 09:33 AM
C'mon Chris, your partisanship is clouding your assessment a bit. There's more to being a great president than policies, wars and the economy. You like Ronald Reagan, he was great in large part because he made Americans proud of their country, confident and optimistic. Kennedy did the exact same thing.

I completely agree with you on Andrew Jackson though ... horrible, even evil man. Somebody should start a petition to get him off the $20. Jackson's last words" "My only regrets in life are that I did not hang John Calhoun and shoot Henry Clay." Calhoun was his VP, Clay Speaker of the House.

My partisanship? Just because he was a Democrat doesn't mean I didn't like what he did. Democrats of the 50's and 60's are nothing like they are now. Some were even racists like the Dixiecrats and opposed ending segregation. I'm not a fan of JFK because he was too heavy handed in his foreign policy. I already said I didn't have any problems with his domestic policy (well other than him pussing out on civil rights issues.)

And I completely agree on Jackson. Between the trail of tears and him telling the Supreme Court to piss off ignoring their ruling, he essentially was a racist fascist as a President and I would rather have a piece of buffalo dung on the 20 than that guy.

Kaylore
07-02-2010, 09:41 AM
Only the modern Right wing movement of America would have the gall to suggest that FDR just got lucky that WWII came along and saved his ass. Hilarious!

You talk to most scholars and they point out if FDR was elected before Hoover, he would have been flogged out of office. Hoover was considered and economic genius by most. He was blamed for a system he didn't create that had no precedent how to fix (this is also why FDR had such a hard time digging out). Pretty much anyone who was President when the market crashed was going to get voted off the island regardless of what they were doing.

I wouldn't say FDR was lucky by any means, but his domestic stuff had really no teeth. Social security didn't kick in until two years past the average mortality rate so few could collect on it, and his jobs program didn't help the economy at all. However, as I already said, all over the world the economic depression was putting despots into power and FDR sending people to do menial tasks killed a lot of the mob mentality and created the illusion the government was trying. That's pretty important as far as getting things to stop from blowing up. And I think despite his critics he handled the war pretty well.

Most of what I said above is acknowledged as fact by historians. Go pick up any book and you'll see what I'm saying isn't false. This is why I hate these debates because most people turn these discussions into "my party is better than your party" when it really should show that sticking to a party line doesn't have anything to do with a President's greatness.

And FWIW I put FDR in my top five because I think Presidents should be judged on how difficult things were while they were in office. This is why Lincoln will always be number one for me.

McDman
07-02-2010, 09:57 AM
Only the modern Right wing movement of America would have the gall to suggest that FDR just got lucky that WWII came along and saved his ass. Hilarious!

That's just wrong. It's a fact that the New Deal didn't actually work. He was a good President because of what he had to deal with, but he is not as great as everyone suggests.

I had a feeling this thread would eventually turn into a conservative vs. liberal debate and much to my chagrin this post will undoubtedly start it with it's hostile nature.

Rohirrim
07-02-2010, 10:12 AM
Hoover not only did nothing, he was totally out of touch with the American people and their pain. The only thing he did was pass the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act which exponentially worsened the Great Depression. Hoover got the boot because his ideas (or better yet, his total lack of ideas, failed. FDR tried anything and everything without favoritism over any single ideology. Now, for political reasons, people go back and pick out what didn't work and blast him for it, conveniently forgetting what did work. To characterize all the building programs as nothing more than morale boosters is just silly. It put actual Americans off the government dole and into real jobs. People were working. Many of the projects built at that time are still in use to this day, and the pride Americans took in those projects is evident in the work. Visit the lodge on Mount Hood in Oregon, to see for yourself. There are many others around the country. Besides, if you want to argue that FDR's Keynesian policies were a failure then you have to explain how WWII, in economic terms the largest Keynesian project ever, pulled this country out of the Great Depression.

Hating FDR is simply an adjunct disease to the more prevalent strain of hating the United States government which Reagan unleashed on us. It's a shame, really. I'm sure that more than half the world would much prefer our government over their own. The odd thing is that when Reagan was a young man, FDR was his hero, and yet he will be remembered as the man who, more than any other, is responsible for unraveling the America that FDR built.

Also, keep in mind that many of the Wall Street and banking regulations enacted during FDR's time in office kept this country out of another major depression until they were dismantled, allowing our current catastrophe to occur. In fact, it would be easy to argue that the dismantling of FDR's entire tax and regulation structure is directly responsible for putting us where we are today.

McDman
07-02-2010, 10:17 AM
Hoover not only did nothing, he was totally out of touch with the American people and their pain. The only thing he did was pass the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act which exponentially worsened the Great Depression. Hoover got the boot because his ideas (or better yet, his total lack of ideas, failed. FDR tried anything and everything without favoritism over any single ideology. Now, for political reasons, people go back and pick out what didn't work and blast him for it, conveniently forgetting what did work. To characterize all the building programs as nothing more than morale boosters is just silly. It put actual Americans off the government dole and into real jobs. People were working. Many of the projects built at that time are still in use to this day, and the pride Americans took in those projects is evident in the work. Visit the lodge on Mount Hood in Oregon, to see for yourself. There are many others around the country. Besides, if you want to argue that FDR's Keynesian policies were a failure then you have to explain how WWII, in economic terms the largest Keynesian project ever, pulled this country out of the Great Depression.

Hating FDR is simply an adjunct disease to the more prevalent strain of hating the United States government which Reagan unleashed on us. It's a shame, really. I'm sure that more than half the world would much prefer our government over their own. The odd thing is that when Reagan was a young man, FDR was his hero, and yet he will be remembered as the man who, more than any other, is responsible for unraveling the America that FDR built..

You realize literally no one in here has claimed they hate FDR. In fact, even the people who claim his New Deal was not all it was cracked up to be put him in their top five.

Quit being a drama queen and trying to start arguments where there really is no substance to start one. No one has said they hated him, I don't know where you're getting that.

Mr.Meanie
07-02-2010, 10:24 AM
Poll is flawed becasue there is no option for Obama

Rohirrim
07-02-2010, 10:28 AM
You realize literally no one in here has claimed they hate FDR. In fact, even the people who claim his New Deal was not all it was cracked up to be put him in their top five.

Quit being a drama queen and trying to start arguments where there really is no substance to start one. No one has said they hated him, I don't know where you're getting that.

You obviously aren't much of a student of American history. Since William F. Buckley launched the modern conservative movement in the late 50s, FDR has been the number one target. Reagan put the bullseye on FDR in all his rhetoric using him as the worst possible example of government. The number one goal of the Right Wing in America is to take apart FDR's legacy, both literally and figuratively. In fact, you could say that the main political battle going on in this country right now still revolves around FDR, his policies, and those who oppose his policies. Just like historians like to say that on many levels, America is still fighting the Civil War, in many ways we are still fighting over the FDR/Hoover conflict. Hell, the actual origins of the fight probably go back to Jefferson vs. Hamilton.

Kaylore
07-02-2010, 10:34 AM
You realize literally no one in here has claimed they hate FDR. In fact, even the people who claim his New Deal was not all it was cracked up to be put him in their top five.

Quit being a drama queen and trying to start arguments where there really is no substance to start one. No one has said they hated him, I don't know where you're getting that.

Beat me to it. Talk about a wailing banshee. We point out some simple facts and he goes all hysterical saying we're "hating" on FDR and "attacking" him. And you're right: both groups have their icons and will not allow anyone to be even slightly critical.

Archer81
07-02-2010, 10:38 AM
You ever think if FDR was alive today if he would have had his wheel chair pimped out? Spinner rims and a lift kit?

:Broncos:

McDman
07-02-2010, 10:45 AM
You obviously aren't much of a student of American history. Since William F. Buckley launched the modern conservative movement in the late 50s, FDR has been the number one target. Reagan put the bullseye on FDR in all his rhetoric using him as the worst possible example of government. The number one goal of the Right Wing in America is to take apart FDR's legacy, both literally and figuratively. In fact, you could say that the main political battle going on in this country right now still revolves around FDR, his policies, and those who oppose his policies. Just like historians like to say that on many levels, America is still fighting the Civil War, in many ways we are still fighting over the FDR/Hoover conflict. Hell, the actual origins of the fight probably go back to Jefferson vs. Hamilton.

First off, you know nothing about my education in history. I have my degree in the subject and I did very well. Just because you're getting personally offended for no reason does not mean you need to attack my knowledge, especially on what I studied for four years.

Secondly, I have had professors who were enamored with FDR, if I had listened blindly to all those people I would have had a very subjective love for him. I'm not even a conservative. I have not been influenced by anyone to hate what he stood for. The fact of the matter is that the New Deal wasn't everything it was cracked up to be. Get over your conspiracy theories.

Cmac821
07-02-2010, 10:50 AM
Washington because what he pre-presidency. Gave up on the British and led our charge, didn't abuse his powers a course. From history classes and documentaries I think George Washington really loved democracy and believed thoroughly, he would be so disappointed if he saw what a mess it has become

broncocalijohn
07-02-2010, 11:20 AM
FDR brought in the welfare state we currently get to encounter. While he did a splendid job during the war, his decade of failed policies were saved by the war. Hopefully, Obama realizes you cant keep spending government money to get us out of a depression/recession. For modern times, I would say Reagan.

crush17
07-02-2010, 11:20 AM
FDR hands down.

This country didn't even get to see 1/2 of the New Deal he laid out becuase he passed before most of it came to fruition.

We need another leader like FDR to come in and take charge the way he did.

I will always admire him.

broncocalijohn
07-02-2010, 11:23 AM
Poll is flawed becasue there is no option for Obama

that will be when we have our worst presidents of the United States. Each day he is president, we forget how bad Carter was for us. Since WW2, I would say Obama, Carter and George Bush 2 would be top 3 in a poll.

Kaylore
07-02-2010, 11:25 AM
All I'm going to say is Senators make horrible presidents, and McCain would have been terrible (though in different ways.).

bronclvr
07-02-2010, 12:20 PM
Okay, I admit it, I'm a horrible person-call me a nepotist, i had to vote for my great, great Grandfather-just don't forget his name-Andrew "action" Jackson!

JJJ
07-02-2010, 12:41 PM
Top four are Lincoln, Jefferson, Washington, and TR. These also happen to be the Mt. Rushmore quartet. Those rock breakers knew what they were talking about.

The fifth is.... wait for it.......my man Grover.

26786


26787

JJJ
07-02-2010, 12:52 PM
Okay, I admit it, I'm a horrible person-call me a nepotist, i had to vote for my great, great Grandfather-just don't forget his name-Andrew "action" Jackson!

No reason at all to be apologetic about voting for Old Hickory. He is routinely in the top 10 of such lists. I don't share the negative opinion of him that was posted previously.

BroncoLifer
07-02-2010, 01:00 PM
JFK was a solid President and navigated us through the most tense situation of the entire cold war.



I give JFK high marks for handling things once he got the intel of what the Soviets were up to.

But why did Khrushchev think he could get away with it? Because JFK was so weak and feckless over the Bay of Pigs fiasco and also at the US-USSR summit meeting in Vienna the year before, so Khrushchev figured that Kennedy was a wuss.

The point is that if Kennedy had been better in his 1st year as President the Cuban Missle Crisis probably would have never happened in the first place. Not something that his most ardent admirers like to consider.

brncs_fan
07-02-2010, 01:41 PM
But why did Khrushchev think he could get away with it? Because JFK was so weak and feckless over the Bay of Pigs fiasco and also at the US-USSR summit meeting in Vienna the year before, so Khrushchev figured that Kennedy was a wuss.


Bay of Pigs was an Eisenhower plan that was simply carried out by the Eisenhower staff that stayed on with Kennedy and got him to go along with it. It put him into a really bad position going forward.

There is a great movie called Thirteen Days that shows how the whole Cuban Missile Crisis went down (from the American standpoint anyway).

BroncoLifer
07-02-2010, 02:06 PM
Bay of Pigs was an Eisenhower plan that was simply carried out by the Eisenhower staff that stayed on with Kennedy and got him to go along with it. It put him into a really bad position going forward.


You seem to be missing the point. It doesn't matter who made the plan. What mattered vis-a-vis the Soviets was how it reflected on JFK. In their eyes, Eisenhower people talked him into it = JFK weak and inexperienced, under Ike's shadow and not really running the show himself. And again, from the Soviet perspective, things started going bad with the invasion and JFK pulled the plug = JFK weak, not willing to tough it out when the going gets rough.



There is a great movie called Thirteen Days that shows how the whole Cuban Missile Crisis went down (from the American standpoint anyway).

Kennedy administration people who were there have criticized that movie for being high on drama and a bit loose with the facts. Hollywood is a lousy source to learn history.

Ugly Duck
07-02-2010, 02:29 PM
I can't believe George Bush is not on the list. He kept us safe from terrorism - thats gotta count for something.

http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/b/e/bush_imports.jpg

FADERPROOF
07-02-2010, 02:30 PM
War and politics thread!!!!!

brncs_fan
07-02-2010, 02:37 PM
You seem to be missing the point. It doesn't matter who made the plan. What mattered vis-a-vis the Soviets was how it reflected on JFK. In their eyes, Eisenhower people talked him into it = JFK weak and inexperienced, under Ike's shadow and not really running the show himself. And again, from the Soviet perspective, things started going bad with the invasion and JFK pulled the plug = JFK weak, not willing to tough it out when the going gets rough.

Krhuschev was also falling a bit out of favor a bit in his country as well and may have been using it as a show of strength for himself.


Kennedy administration people who were there have criticized that movie for being high on drama and a bit loose with the facts. Hollywood is a lousy source to learn history.
Well aware of Hollywood's typical murder of historical facts when it comes to making movies. I mention the movie though for those of us who weren't alive during that time and therefore don't have an understanding of what the country was feeling during that time. It does have several of the key components of the crisis though with the U-2 flights, the quarantine, and the scene in the UN.

woodall
07-02-2010, 03:13 PM
It is amazing that Winston Churchill and FDR were both living at the same time and collaborating on the war--the Nazi's never really stood a chance.

Please.....I have nothing but respect for Churchill and FDR. The Nazi's defeated themselves when Hitler made the biggest mistake of the war by invading the Soviet Union. As Americans, we love to overestimate our part in defeating the Nazi's, but the largest, bloodiest, and most important battles took place in the east not the west.

TheReverend
07-02-2010, 03:18 PM
Please.....I have nothing but respect for Churchill and FDR. The Nazi's defeated themselves when Hitler made the biggest mistake of the war by invading the Soviet Union. As Americans, we love to overestimate our part in defeating the Nazi's, but the largest, bloodiest, and most important battles took place in the east not the west.

You're aware that there was an entire other theatre to that war, right?

woodall
07-02-2010, 03:24 PM
Yes, I am aware of the Pacific theatre, but he was talking about defeating the Nazi's not the Japanese.

TheReverend
07-02-2010, 03:32 PM
Yes, I am aware of the Pacific theatre, but he was talking about defeating the Nazi's not the Japanese.

Defeating the Nazi's would've meant little if it let Japan run wild, and if there weren't a Japan in the Axis, we could've easily single-handedly rofl-stomped Germany

woodall
07-02-2010, 03:38 PM
Defeating the Nazi's would've meant little if it let Japan run wild, and if there weren't a Japan in the Axis, we could've easily single-handedly rofl-stomped Germany

I disagree with the above because Japan wasn't going to run wild on anybody except maybe China and saying we could have single-handedly destroyed Germany is just stupid. None of this changes the fact that what I said above was accurate about Germany miscalculating and invading the Soviet Union which really cost them the war.

dsmoot
07-02-2010, 05:27 PM
Very much an admirer of Lincoln and TR. However we have lost touch with our founding fathers. George Washington as a leader and man of great personal strength and integrity does not get the credit he much deserves for the integral part in the formation of this country during such a critical time. He was much more than just a General and a President. For him to not be there with Lincoln and TR is travesty. It certainly is to be considered equal with FDR.

Homer Simpson
07-02-2010, 05:50 PM
Couple of interesting things from Digg today.

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-presapp0605-31.html

http://i48.tinypic.com/330a652.png

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0701/nations-leading-presidential-scholars-bush-worst-president-modern-era-5th-worst-history/

It's one thing for a coterie of liberals at a late-night Washington soirée to say that George W. Bush was the worst president in their lifetimes.
It's another thing when the same is said by the nation's 238 leading presidential scholars, who have been polled annually for the last 28 years.
President Bush ranked worst among modern presidents -- and the fifth worst in history, according to the poll by the Siena Research Institute. Ranking first? President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, who led the country from 1933 until his death in 1945.
President Roosevelt served four terms, the longest of any president in history. US presidents became limited to two terms after US states ratified the 22nd Amendment to the US constitution in 1951.
President Barack Obama, who hasn't yet served a full term, rated 15th.
Since 1982, the Siena Research Institute has polled presidential scholars on whom they view to be best and worst presidents in American history, based on a variety of issues from “integrity” to economic stewardship. This year’s poll of 238 scholars found that President Franklin Roosevelt was once again ranked on top, joined by Presidents Lincoln, Jefferson, Washington, and Teddy Roosevelt to complete the top five. However, President George W. Bush did not fare well since the last poll was conducted in 2002. He dropped 16 places to 39th, making him the worst president since Warren Harding died in office in 1923, and one of the bottom five of all time, according to the experts:
"Today, just one year after leaving office, the former president has found himself in the bottom five at 39th rated especially poorly in handling the economy, communication, ability to compromise, foreign policy accomplishments and intelligence. Rounding out the bottom five are four presidents that have held that dubious distinction each time the survey has been conducted: Andrew Johnson, James Buchanan, Warren G. Harding, and Franklin Pierce."
Bush was rated second from the bottom on “intelligence,” “foreign policy accomplishments,” and “handling of U.S. economy.” This despite promises from Bush supporters that “history will be very kind” to the former president, as his Attorney General John Ashcroft put it. Bush’s father’s legacy “held constant” in this year’s poll, with George H.W. Bush coming in at 22nd. President Reagan “dropped two places from 16th overall in 2002 to 18th today.” President Obama was ranked 15th.

WABronco
07-02-2010, 06:03 PM
I would say FDR based off his wartime leadership. However, in today's age he'd be just like any other prez, skewered and roasted on the tele every night.

They're all politicians. They're all dirty or flawed in some way.

WABronco
07-02-2010, 06:07 PM
It is amazing that Winston Churchill and FDR were both living at the same time and collaborating on the war--the Nazi's never really stood a chance.

Neither did Poland.

ColoradoDarin
07-02-2010, 06:32 PM
Couple of interesting things from Digg today.

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-presapp0605-31.html

http://i48.tinypic.com/330a652.png

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0701/nations-leading-presidential-scholars-bush-worst-president-modern-era-5th-worst-history/

Eh, I thought they changed it when Clinton was president (split personal approval from job approval, it had all been one before then) - meaning presidential approval ratings aren't as good to compare historically anymore. You can compare Clinton onward and Bush 41 backwards and still be alright, but a comparison of the 2 different time periods wouldn't be as accurate. I guarantee Clinton's approval would have been lower and I think both W.s and Obama's would be higher (with all 3 dragged up/down).

Homer Simpson
07-02-2010, 06:46 PM
Eh, I thought they changed it when Clinton was president (split personal approval from job approval, it had all been one before then) - meaning presidential approval ratings aren't as good to compare historically anymore. You can compare Clinton onward and Bush 41 backwards and still be alright, but a comparison of the 2 different time periods wouldn't be as accurate. I guarantee Clinton's approval would have been lower and I think both W.s and Obama's would be higher (with all 3 dragged up/down).

Your argument is with the Wall Street Journal!

Obushma
07-02-2010, 07:13 PM
I'm gonna throw my vote in for Taft.

ColoradoDarin
07-02-2010, 08:42 PM
Your argument is with the Wall Street Journal!

Actually it's with Gallup who changed it then.

gyldenlove
07-02-2010, 08:52 PM
Gotta go with Woodrow Wilson on this one, clearly anyone named Woodrow is badass.

Archer81
07-02-2010, 09:01 PM
Gotta go with Woodrow Wilson on this one, clearly anyone named Woodrow is badass.


Yeah..."badass" is what I think of when I think of Wilson...


:Broncos:

Homer Simpson
07-02-2010, 09:36 PM
Gotta go with Woodrow Wilson on this one, clearly anyone named Woodrow is badass.

And he almost nailed Edna Krabappel!

Obushma
07-02-2010, 09:53 PM
Yeah...ass is what I think of when I think of Wilson...


:Broncos:

fixed it for ya

WolfpackGuy
07-02-2010, 09:59 PM
FDR because he signed the 21st Amendment

brncs_fan
07-02-2010, 10:15 PM
I'm gonna throw my vote in for Taft.

He served at the head of two branches of government: executive (President), and judicial (Supreme Court Chief Justice).

He also got stuck in the White House bathtub.

Obushma
07-02-2010, 10:47 PM
He served at the head of two branches of government: executive (President), and judicial (Supreme Court Chief Justice).

He also got stuck in the White House bathtub.

He was a big boy, the biggest who ever served.

DivineLegion
07-03-2010, 01:20 AM
Teddy or fail.

Majik
07-03-2010, 09:43 AM
Other -- Ronald Reagan

rmsanger
07-03-2010, 09:53 AM
President George W Bush, may god bless him and his family for protecting us against extremists!

Cito Pelon
07-03-2010, 10:15 AM
Lincoln is ahead right now, that's a good choice. The Southern states had way too much power based on the "3/5th's Compromise" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-fifths_compromise) in the original US Constitution that stated slaves would be counted as 3/5th's of a man for representation in the House of Representatives and the Electoral College.

So the Southern states had way too much power in the House of Representatives and the Electoral College because of that often overlooked provision of the original US Constitution.

Lincoln put an end to the Southern states' out-sized representation in the Federal Government. And with the Missouri Compromise, new states were getting added that would increase the "Slave Power" of the southern states. Lincoln ended that.

bowtown
07-03-2010, 10:20 AM
President George W Bush, may god bless him and his family for protecting us against extremists!

I think you might have him confused with a president who's watch the worst terrorst attack in US history didn't happen under.

Raidersbane
07-03-2010, 11:18 AM
The greatest Statesman ever to serve as president. The man that brought this nation to the status of true world power. He was J.P. Morgans nightmare because he refused to bow to the overwhelming politcal influence of the big monopolies of coal and the railroads. His decisions were based on what was best for the nation as a whole using common ****ing sense and not given over to pleasing any particular class or group. His loyalty was to America and it's citizens and not to his polictical party and it's donors.


And finally when someone asked him a question he would give a direct and honest answer. How often do we see that in these fine days.......from either party?

Bullmoose!

Pick Six
07-03-2010, 12:59 PM
Buchanan is the only president who remained single. That has to count for something...:sunshine:

BroncoLifer
07-03-2010, 02:45 PM
Buchanan is the only president who remained single. That has to count for something...:sunshine:

You know why he was single, don't you?

OABB
07-03-2010, 02:48 PM
President George W Bush, may god bless him and his family for protecting us against extremists!

Brawndo has electrolytes. It's got what plants crave.

Archer81
07-03-2010, 03:00 PM
The greatest Statesman ever to serve as president. The man that brought this nation to the status of true world power. He was J.P. Morgans nightmare because he refused to bow to the overwhelming politcal influence of the big monopolies of coal and the railroads. His decisions were based on what was best for the nation as a whole using common ****ing sense and not given over to pleasing any particular class or group. His loyalty was to America and it's citizens and not to his polictical party and it's donors.


And finally when someone asked him a question he would give a direct and honest answer. How often do we see that in these fine days.......from either party?

Bullmoose!

Then again...in 1901 era America there was no twitter, facebook, cnn or foxnews. Presidential gaffes and misstatements were not broadcast to the people. President's speeches were only carried to whoever was in the crowd that day. Simpler times...when people could believe the president was always on top of things.

:Broncos:

broncosteven
07-03-2010, 08:12 PM
It's mostly accurate. Quite a few wanted him to be king, and everyone wanted to treat him like a king, and there was no precedent on the volume of terms he could serve, so it's generally accepted that he "turned down" being a King because he refused the treatment and left office after 2 terms. Had he actually wanted to be a king, the congress certainly wouldn't have stood for it and we probably would've had serious infighting and been devoured by the Brits.

This is why Washington got my vote, I would have picked FDR if I could vote more than once.

I thought FDR guiding us out of the depression and through the worst war ever was very big even though I didn't like that he stayed for a 3rd term.

Lincoln is interesting but not one of the greatest presidents ever.

Archer81
07-03-2010, 08:19 PM
This is why Washington got my vote, I would have picked FDR if I could vote more than once.

I thought FDR guiding us out of the depression and through the worst war ever was very big even though I didn't like that he stayed for a 3rd term.

Lincoln is interesting but not one of the greatest presidents ever.


His policies prolonged it. FDR was a good war time president.

Lincoln on the other hand...if he faltered, or allowed his advisors or generals to override him, the US would not exist. So that is why he is the greatest president to me.

:Broncos:

bombay
07-03-2010, 08:23 PM
Jimmy Carter was far and away the best president we ever had.

He presided over an awesome national 4 year party.

I bet he invented quaaludes while he was ****ing around trying to find **** to do with peanuts.

He's my hero.

gyldenlove
07-03-2010, 09:31 PM
And he almost nailed Edna Krabappel!

He is also the only prez ever to have a genuine doctorate and not one of those fake honorable degrees.

Rock Chalk
07-03-2010, 09:47 PM
Hoover not only did nothing, he was totally out of touch with the American people and their pain. The only thing he did was pass the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Act which exponentially worsened the Great Depression. Hoover got the boot because his ideas (or better yet, his total lack of ideas, failed. FDR tried anything and everything without favoritism over any single ideology. Now, for political reasons, people go back and pick out what didn't work and blast him for it, conveniently forgetting what did work. To characterize all the building programs as nothing more than morale boosters is just silly. It put actual Americans off the government dole and into real jobs. People were working. Many of the projects built at that time are still in use to this day, and the pride Americans took in those projects is evident in the work. Visit the lodge on Mount Hood in Oregon, to see for yourself. There are many others around the country. Besides, if you want to argue that FDR's Keynesian policies were a failure then you have to explain how WWII, in economic terms the largest Keynesian project ever, pulled this country out of the Great Depression.

Hating FDR is simply an adjunct disease to the more prevalent strain of hating the United States government which Reagan unleashed on us. It's a shame, really. I'm sure that more than half the world would much prefer our government over their own. The odd thing is that when Reagan was a young man, FDR was his hero, and yet he will be remembered as the man who, more than any other, is responsible for unraveling the America that FDR built.

Also, keep in mind that many of the Wall Street and banking regulations enacted during FDR's time in office kept this country out of another major depression until they were dismantled, allowing our current catastrophe to occur. In fact, it would be easy to argue that the dismantling of FDR's entire tax and regulation structure is directly responsible for putting us where we are today.

FDR's america? The one that enacted MANDATORY retirement plans that less than 1% were SUPPOSED to collect in Social Security? In other words, a hidden TAX that was supposed to be taken from the American people and never paid out because People DIED before they could collect?

The FDR that threw thsouands of AMERICAN citizens in internment camps, seizing their property and assets and never giving them back?

That FDR? Im glad that his America was destroyed, he was a Marxist hack and the second worst president this country has ever had next to only that colossal douchenozzel in office right now.

McDman
07-03-2010, 11:01 PM
This is why Washington got my vote, I would have picked FDR if I could vote more than once.

I thought FDR guiding us out of the depression and through the worst war ever was very big even though I didn't like that he stayed for a 3rd term.

Lincoln is interesting but not one of the greatest presidents ever.

We're all entitled to our own opinions, but I just cannot see how that statement is correct.

Everyone loves FDR for guiding us out of the depression, but Lincoln did that very same thing only it was our country fighting a civil war. World War II was horrendous and we lost around 300,000 men, but Lincoln led us through the single hardest time in American history and through a war that lost around 600,000 people, all Americans.

For the world, yes, World War II is the worst war ever, but for America, I don't think there is any doubt that the Civil War was much more devastating.

brncs_fan
07-03-2010, 11:08 PM
I thought FDR guiding us out of the depression and through the worst war ever was very big even though I didn't like that he stayed for a 3rd term.


1. WWII guided us out of the depression.

2. He also ran for and won a fourth term, which was completed by Truman.

JJJ
07-04-2010, 01:52 AM
Andrew Jackson is the only president to completely eliminate the US debt.

Though his purpose was trying to kill off the national bank by doing so.

Durango
07-04-2010, 06:31 AM
George Washington set the bar. Every single decision he made set standards we live by today. His respect for the newly written constitution codified the three branches of government in a way that gave each it's own authority. There would not have been a Lincoln with the versatile authority he needed to win the Civil War had it not been for Washington establishing the ground rules of the Presidency. In my mind, there just isn't another choice, although we have been blessed with many great minds, some generally unknown, over the 2+ centuries.

BroncoBuff
07-04-2010, 07:25 AM
FDR's america? The one that enacted MANDATORY retirement plans that less than 1% were SUPPOSED to collect in Social Security? In other words, a hidden TAX that was supposed to be taken from the American people and never paid out because People DIED before they could collect?

The FDR that threw thsouands of AMERICAN citizens in internment camps, seizing their property and assets and never giving them back?

That FDR? Im glad that his America was destroyed, he was a Marxist hack and the second worst president this country has ever had next to only that colossal douchenozzel in office right now.

If that's the best you can do to hammer on a president who served during the worst 12 years in US history, what you're doing is praising with faint damnation.

I think he should've sent an emissary to Yalta. That might've been his biggest mistake, going himself as weak as he was.

Cito Pelon
07-04-2010, 07:43 AM
1. WWII guided us out of the depression.
2. He also ran for and won a fourth term, which was completed by Truman.

Yes, because of the huge increase in Federal spending, right? Exactly what the New Deal was meant to do - deficit-side spending to get people to work so they would pay it back in taxes. People that don't work don't pay Federal taxes, right?

This argument will exist for as long as history does, because there will always be people firmly against any taxes that can be construed as a 'dole out', expands government, etc.

Cito Pelon
07-04-2010, 07:49 AM
The greatest Statesman ever to serve as president. The man that brought this nation to the status of true world power. He was J.P. Morgans nightmare because he refused to bow to the overwhelming politcal influence of the big monopolies of coal and the railroads. His decisions were based on what was best for the nation as a whole using common ****ing sense and not given over to pleasing any particular class or group. His loyalty was to America and it's citizens and not to his polictical party and it's donors.


And finally when someone asked him a question he would give a direct and honest answer. How often do we see that in these fine days.......from either party?

Bullmoose!

Yeah, Teddy would be a good choice. The Trust-busting was important. He was certainly a statesman, good leader, good administrator.

McDman
07-04-2010, 07:55 AM
Yes, because of the huge increase in Federal spending, right? Exactly what the New Deal was meant to do - deficit-side spending to get people to work so they would pay it back in taxes. People that don't work don't pay Federal taxes, right?

This argument will exist for as long as history does, because there will always be people firmly against any taxes that can be construed as a 'dole out', expands government, etc.

Actually, I don't think we'll ever really know if the increased spending would have worked. Had the war not happened I really don't believe it would have. While I don't necessarily agree with FDR's semi-socialists views, I really don't know what else he could have done. He's easily a top five President.

One more thing, people keep saying that the depression was by far the worst point in American history but they're forgetting that we were at war with ourselves for 4 1/2 years. The depression did last longer but we lost so many American lives during the Civil War, it's really hard to fathom.

Gcver2ver3
07-04-2010, 08:11 AM
far as i'm concerned...

there's Lincoln and then there's everybody else...

with that said, i'm surpised at some of the inclusions and omissions from the list...

while not without contraversy, Bill Clinton should still be on the list...

and even though he didn't like Blacks very much...:afro:, Ronald Reagan did big things as president...many believe he's the greatest president of the modern era easily...

brncs_fan
07-04-2010, 08:56 AM
Yes, because of the huge increase in Federal spending, right? Exactly what the New Deal was meant to do - deficit-side spending to get people to work so they would pay it back in taxes. People that don't work don't pay Federal taxes, right?

It had nothing to do with deficit spending. It had everything to do with countries such as France and England and Poland and Russia buying massive amounts of weapons from us to help then fight the war. Turns out we had a readily available workforce to build all of this stuff.

Cash and Carry and the Lend Lease had more to do with us getting out of the Depression than anything FDR came up with. This is not meant to completely tear apart FDR as he was a great wartime president. I just can't say that he guided us out o the great depression and be historically accurate.

Cito Pelon
07-04-2010, 09:09 AM
Actually, I don't think we'll ever really know if the increased spending would have worked. Had the war not happened I really don't believe it would have. While I don't necessarily agree with FDR's semi-socialists views, I really don't know what else he could have done. He's easily a top five President.

One more thing, people keep saying that the depression was by far the worst point in American history but they're forgetting that we were at war with ourselves for 4 1/2 years. The depression did last longer but we lost so many American lives during the Civil War, it's really hard to fathom.

Pretty brutal. The military leadership threw lives away like crazy back then.

Cito Pelon
07-04-2010, 09:23 AM
It had nothing to do with deficit spending. It had everything to do with countries such as France and England and Poland and Russia buying massive amounts of weapons from us to help then fight the war. Turns out we had a readily available workforce to build all of this stuff.

Cash and Carry and the Lend Lease had more to do with us getting out of the Depression than anything FDR came up with. This is not meant to completely tear apart FDR as he was a great wartime president. I just can't say that he guided us out o the great depression and be historically accurate.

The Cash-and-Carry, yeah, we put the screws on Russia - they paid in gold bullion. We really put the screws on them. I can't remember the name of the book I read not long ago about the arms convoys to Archangel and Murmansk, how the Russians actually fired on convoys trying to get the arms for free and avoid loading the gold bullion on in return.

But, I have to differ with you about the rest, that's not quite accurate, brncs.

France bought nothing, and Lend-Lease to Great Britain didn't get paid back until AFTER the war, and in fact GB never paid most of their bill from Lend-Lease. They stalled on the payments until the 1960's I believe when their debt was finally forgiven.

It was deficit-spending for war materiel that put people to work, and that was what the New Deal was meant to accomplish - Keynesian economics. Also, war-bonds were a huge contributor to ending the Great Depression. And bonds are defecit-spending, right?

The argument will go on forever, I'm sure you'll have a retort. ^5

JJJ
07-04-2010, 09:35 AM
Actually, I don't think we'll ever really know if the increased spending would have worked. Had the war not happened I really don't believe it would have. While I don't necessarily agree with FDR's semi-socialists views, I really don't know what else he could have done. He's easily a top five President.

One more thing, people keep saying that the depression was by far the worst point in American history but they're forgetting that we were at war with ourselves for 4 1/2 years. The depression did last longer but we lost so many American lives during the Civil War, it's really hard to fathom.

We do know that had he only served two terms as was the unwritten but no less expected tradition he certainly would have gone down in history in the bottom 5 presidents and nobody would have remembered FDR for anything.

By January 1941 when his presidency should have rightfully ended the New Deal had done nothing to escape the depression and tax rates were above 80%. Also at this point he had provided little or no aid to his supposed allies in the fight against facism and had pretty much watched while Europe and Asia were enslaved.

Other than that a good guy.

Cito Pelon
07-04-2010, 09:53 AM
far as i'm concerned...

there's Lincoln and then there's everybody else...

with that said, i'm surpised at some of the inclusions and omissions from the list...

while not without contraversy, Bill Clinton should still be on the list...

and even though he didn't like Blacks very much...:afro:, Ronald Reagan did big things as president...many believe he's the greatest president of the modern era easily...

The problem I have with Reagan is that every single dollar he rang up on the deficit is still on the books. Every single dollar, all $8 trillion of it. Supply-side economics just flat out doesn't work. Never has, never will.

Cutting taxes on rich people just flat out doesn't work. Hell, even with the tax cuts on the top 1%, who are still the biggest tax-cheats? Yup, the top 1%. Despite getting huge cuts in their taxes, the top 1% are still trying to cheat on their taxes.

ColoradoDarin
07-04-2010, 12:04 PM
The problem I have with Reagan is that every single dollar he rang up on the deficit is still on the books. Every single dollar, all $8 trillion of it. Supply-side economics just flat out doesn't work. Never has, never will.

Cutting taxes on rich people just flat out doesn't work. Hell, even with the tax cuts on the top 1%, who are still the biggest tax-cheats? Yup, the top 1%. Despite getting huge cuts in their taxes, the top 1% are still trying to cheat on their taxes.

You do realize that income and spending are 2 different things?

You then realize that if you double your income yet spend even more you should probably change your spending habits?

Cito Pelon
07-05-2010, 10:17 AM
You do realize that income and spending are 2 different things?

You then realize that if you double your income yet spend even more you should probably change your spending habits?

Point taken.

Steve Sewell
07-05-2010, 10:37 AM
The maneuvering that FDR did throughout the depression and especially WWII ultimately positioned the United States to be the economic and military world power that it is today. The guy was a brilliant and calculating politician. There could be no New Deal, social security or anything, and he'd still be #1 just for the way he handled WWII (the true turning point in the history of the modern world as we know it).

Steve Sewell
07-05-2010, 10:52 AM
Please.....I have nothing but respect for Churchill and FDR. The Nazi's defeated themselves when Hitler made the biggest mistake of the war by invading the Soviet Union. As Americans, we love to overestimate our part in defeating the Nazi's, but the largest, bloodiest, and most important battles took place in the east not the west.

This is true, but who kept Stalin in the war? That would be Churchill and FDR, my friend. Great Britain was never going to be a world power after WWII, and FDR essentially got the Russians to fight the war for the United States.

Look at the casualty figures from WWII...FDR's political maneuverings were an absolute stroke of genius.

Steve Sewell
07-05-2010, 11:07 AM
Also at this point he had provided little or no aid to his supposed allies in the fight against facism and had pretty much watched while Europe and Asia were enslaved.


This couldn't be further from the truth.

Obushma
07-05-2010, 02:01 PM
You want a modern day Thomas Jefferson...here ya go

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Pick Six
07-05-2010, 06:37 PM
You know why he was single, don't you?

Yeah, I know about those rumors of him being gay. That's a mystery about which we'll never know the truth...

MrPeepers
07-05-2010, 09:07 PM
George Washington, followed by Polk -I flipped.

GW set the bar, and to be the first and be so revered, I think he's the gold standard all other presidents lived up to.

to be very blunt, i'm pretty ignorant on the older presidents accomplishments, but polk did alot in a very short time, and shaped the US to its modern boundary.

broncocalijohn
07-05-2010, 09:09 PM
want polk the only president not backed by his own party?

MrPeepers
07-05-2010, 10:29 PM
want polk the only president not backed by his own party?

think it was millard fillmore