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BMarsh615
06-27-2010, 05:10 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncosheadlines/ci_15386559?source=rss&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter

By Woody Paige
The Denver Post
Posted: 06/27/2010 01:00:00 AM MDT


John Elway and Josh McDaniels loathe losing more than bare-knuckle champion Jim Corbett detested solar plexus punches and ancient Athenians hated solar eclipses.

Josh & John lost bad the other day.

As teammates for the first time, El and McD were beaten in a golf match at Cherry Hills Country Club by a pair of gadflies — Joe Ellis, Broncos chief operating officer, and Mark Thewes, the coach's assistant. "We lost by one," McDaniels said.

But the game was a win-win for the Broncos, McDaniels and Elway in a new partnership.

Ellis said Saturday: "I think the 4 hours John and Josh spent together was great for them and the franchise."

McDaniels said: "I've really enjoyed being around John. He means so much to the Broncos, Denver and the NFL. We've had fun, and I look forward to John having a relationship with the Broncos, Pat Bowlen and me well into the future."

Elway said: "I've gotten to know Josh, and I'd like to get to know him even better and assist him and the Broncos whatever way I can. Josh knows what he wants and how to get there."

Elway, who engineered more comebacks than any other quarterback in NFL history, wants one more comeback with the Broncos.

The Broncos want John to come back.

The Broncos and Elway have agreed that the Hall of Fame quarterback will be an asset with the team's business operations in "marketing initiatives," particularly in advance of the team's game in London, and will observe practices and consult with McDaniels on football matters.

This is a super development. It was too long coming. Lamentably, the Broncos and Elway have been estranged since he retired 11 years ago.

Elway will be a half-century old on Monday. He joined the Broncos more than a quarter-century ago. He was, and remains, the face of the franchise.

In our conversation about his 50th birthday, Elway was emphatic about "getting involved" with the Broncos again "and see where it goes from there."

Ellis said the Broncos and Elway have "low-keyed" his return, but Bowlen "is happy about John's interest. After all, John not only raised the Broncos to a championship level, but he was one of the few players responsible for raising the entire level of attention for the NFL.

"Of course, we want him involved with the Broncos. We want John coming to our headquarters, talking football and helping us in many different areas."

Echoing Elway's words, Ellis said: "We'll see where it leads."

McDaniels opens door

The Hall of Fame quarterback attended a recent minicamp workout (closed to the media, so it went unreported). McDaniels told me Saturday that Elway is "welcome any time to Dove Valley. I look forward to that as head coach. He is the greatest Bronco of all time and someone all our players should know and respect. We can benefit from John's knowledge, presence and experience."

John wasn't as welcomed before.

There was a breakdown between Elway and Mike Shana- han.

"Honestly, some things went on between Mike and me," said Elway, who wouldn't elaborate.

In 1984, Shanahan was brought in by Dan Reeves as a 32-year-old assistant (same age as McDaniels when he took the Broncos' head coaching job) to work specifically with Elway. The two became virtually inseparable, especially when Shanahan was elevated to offensive coordinator. Shanahan left in '87 to become head coach of the Raiders.

When Shanahan was fired abruptly in '89, Bowlen ordered Reeves to rehire him. But Reeves believed Shanahan and Elway secretly scripted plays behind his back. Shana- han was fired in 1991. In '95, he returned as head coach and reunited with Elway.

Elway said: "I told Mike I understood the relationship between head coach and player. My father (Jack) was a coach. I told him I wouldn't cross the line, but he made sure I didn't."

However, even after Shana- han and Elway won two Super Bowls (after losing three together) and John retired, the abyss widened, because Bowlen had shouted "this one's for John" after the first title, Shanahan didn't want Elway in an executive role, and if the coach won without Elway, that one would be for Shanahan.

So, John was persona non grata at Dove Valley until Mc- Daniels reached out to Elway.

"Don't need a job title"

At the end of Elway's career, Bowlen offered to sell him up to 20 percent of the ownership, and Elway eventually would become COO. Elway declined; he didn't want then to be a minority shareholder.

That proposed deal prompted former owner Edgar Kaiser, who had maneuvered the Elway acquisition, to file a lawsuit, claiming he had first right-of-refusal. Litigation dragged through federal and state courts for years before a final ruling in Bowlen's favor in 2007.

Elway would be willing if Bowlen made the offer again. They were owners (with Stan Kroenke) of the defunct Colorado Crush arena football team. "I did that because I wanted to be in football again," Elway said. "I got the experience on the ownership and personnel side, and I was ready for the NFL . . . Would I like to be part owner of the Broncos? Yes."

Bowlen repeatedly has said he will not sell the franchise.

With a new regime, Elway was enthused about ending the split.

"It's easier to be involved now. I don't need a job title. I don't want to call shots. It's not necessarily day-to-day, but if I can help Josh, Pat and Joe get this franchise back on track, that's important. It's just a matter of being the guy there who if you wanted a different point of view, I can give it."

Would he want to coach? "Oh, yeah. Being off to the side and working it that way . . . spending time with the quarterbacks and the offense."

Elway has been impressed with McDaniels. "He's considered too young at 34, and I was considered too old at 34. The players, I can tell you, don't give a rat's (behind) if he's 34 or 64. You want a man who can motivate, teach you, coach you to a championship. Josh can do that."

John also has linked up with Tim Tebow. "He texted me when he got to Denver. I watched him practice. I've talked to him. I like him a whole lot. People say he doesn't have the perfect release, but I didn't have a perfect release. You can fix that.

"When Tim came to my (birthday party), we had a long talk. What I told him is that in pro football, the window of accuracy is this small (he spreads his hands 18 inches), not this big (3 feet). Those complete passes in college are incompletions and interceptions in the NFL. You don't get better at accuracy in the weight room. You throw thousands of passes. He's got the natural talent and the smarts. But he's got to throw, throw, throw."

John threw for 56,439 yards (regular season and postseason) and set the record for quarterback victories.

Legendary No. 7 strives to come back to help the Broncos get back.

baja
06-27-2010, 06:01 AM
Great read! I have been waiting for this article for years. I have been saying there was a problem between Shanahan and Elway for years and got roasted here for that take. It was obvious to me there was a problem because Elway was never around and you never saw Shanny and John doing events together it was unnatural. So to all you peeps that said I was crazy screw you. ;D

So many interesting points in this article.

However, even after Shana- han and Elway won two Super Bowls (after losing three together) and John retired, the abyss widened, because Bowlen had shouted "this one's for John" after the first title, Shanahan didn't want Elway in an executive role, and if the coach won without Elway, that one would be for Shanahan.


This is a super development. It was too long coming. Lamentably, the Broncos and Elway have been estranged since he retired 11 years ago.

Elway said: "I've gotten to know Josh, and I'd like to get to know him even better and assist him and the Broncos whatever way I can. Josh knows what he wants and how to get there."



John wasn't as welcomed before.

There was a breakdown between Elway and Mike Shana- han.

"Honestly, some things went on between Mike and me," said Elway, who wouldn't elaborate.

Elway has been impressed with McDaniels. "He's considered too young at 34, and I was considered too old at 34. The players, I can tell you, don't give a rat's (behind) if he's 34 or 64. You want a man who can motivate, teach you, coach you to a championship. Josh can do that."


The little man up stairs is gone, thank you Pat.



So what say you McDaniels bashers now?

baja
06-27-2010, 06:13 AM
However, even after Shana- han and Elway won two Super Bowls (after losing three together) and John retired, the abyss widened, because Bowlen had shouted "this one's for John" after the first title, Shanahan didn't want Elway in an executive role, and if the coach won without Elway, that one would be for Shanahan.

Every Bronco fan should now be glad Shanahan and his ego have been run out of town by the " gutless drunk".

Thank you Mr.Bowlen and if you are a gutless drunk it is not for firing Mike Shanahan but for waiting way too long to do it.

tsiguy96
06-27-2010, 06:14 AM
holy ****ing shanahan-ego. thats incredible, was he just straight jealous of elway?

baja
06-27-2010, 06:32 AM
So how do you peeps reconcile you hero Shanahan treating your hero Elway like this.

I'd like to hear the righteous rev's take on this.

I'd like to hear the enraged So Cal's take on this.



I'd like to hear the author of the gutless drunk thread Taco John's take on this.


I'd say that Shanny and Snyder are a perfect match.

baja
06-27-2010, 06:41 AM
Was Bowlen afraid of Shanahan?

TDmvp
06-27-2010, 07:01 AM
the abyss widened, because Bowlen had shouted "this one's for John" .



ZZZ...ZZZ...:bs:

baja
06-27-2010, 07:05 AM
ZZZ...ZZZ...:bs:

And the denial continues

Broncoman13
06-27-2010, 07:09 AM
I've always agreed that something was wrong there. I'm not sold that there won't be a jealousy factor with the current regime though. Sounds like they are all willing to make it work and it appears that Elway isn't interested in taking someone's job... But I'm not convinced that guys like Ellis and McD would be interested in someone that Bowlen would favor so heavily. I'm glad everyone is willing to give it a shot and Elway is going about it the right way, not looking to take someone's job, but rather just create a role that supports the current structure. I also believe that this is an opening step for Elway to become part owner. This would help Bowlen in a huge way with financing some of these contracts. To me, this is the path forward that facilitates keeping guys like Champ, Doom and even Clady in Bronco uniforms.

bowtown
06-27-2010, 07:14 AM
Woody just gave me a woody.

Broncoman13
06-27-2010, 07:15 AM
Btw Baja, in SD this weekend. Went fishing yesterday just west of Tj. Way choppy, but plenty of good fishing. Mainly 'cuda, guess it's a little early for Yellowtail? Menwhile, the fam was spending the weekend up in CCME. Tracking your new and old stomping grounds pretty well this weekend! ;D

Going to watch Ubaldo dominate tomorrow night!

baja
06-27-2010, 07:18 AM
I've always agreed that something was wrong there. I'm not sold that there won't be a jealousy factor with the current regime though. Sounds like they are all willing to make it work and it appears that Elway isn't interested in taking someone's job... But I'm not convinced that guys like Ellis and McD would be interested in someone that Bowlen would favor so heavily. I'm glad everyone is willing to give it a shot and Elway is going about it the right way, not looking to take someone's job, but rather just create a role that supports the current structure. I also believe that this is an opening step for Elway to become part owner. This would help Bowlen in a huge way with financing some of these contracts. To me, this is the path forward that facilitates keeping guys like Champ, Doom and even Clady in Bronco uniforms.

Funny that so many here think that Shanny was a players coach and that MCD is a young ego driven power happy kid that is running off good players and as it turns out it was Shanahan that ran off the greatest Bronco player ever, John Elway. I am glad Josh is setting things right a Dove Valley.

It is going to be interesting to watch Snyder and Shanahan try to co exist, I give it 1 and change seasons before Shanny is out of football again.

baja
06-27-2010, 07:25 AM
Btw Baja, in SD this weekend. Went fishing yesterday just west of Tj. Way choppy, but plenty of good fishing. Mainly 'cuda, guess it's a little early for Yellowtail? Menwhile, the fam was spending the weekend up in CCME. Tracking your new and old stomping grounds pretty well this weekend! ;D

Going to watch Ubaldo dominate tomorrow night!

LOL small world huh. ;D

Good fishing to you bro.

I found a great Brazilian restaurant in SD it's on 4th Ave. near the mall. Buffet style unbelievable spread and quality all the way.

Here;

http://www.reidogado.net/

Miss I.
06-27-2010, 07:26 AM
Funny that so many here think that Shanny was a players coach and that MCD is a young ego driven power happy kid that is running off good players and as it turns out it was Shanahan that ran off the greatest Bronco player ever, John Elway. I am glad Josh is setting things right a Dove Valley.

It is going to be interesting to watch Snyder and Shanahan try to co exist, I give it 1 and change seasons before Shanny is out of football again.

Baja, not to be a dissenting voice...but who am I kidding, of course I am. ;D But I don't believe all of that article is accurate and it's clearly a puff piece to support McD. There is no way Shanny was pissed about the "this one's for John." remark. That just seems inane somehow. Do I think he might have had a problem with Elway for whatever reason, yes, but I find it hard to believe it had anything to do with the Superbowl remark. I suspect at least part of the reason John was kept away was because Shanny wanted total control over his QBs and it would be hard to do that with a living legend around, which can certainly intimidate new QBs or usurp the authority of the HC.

Now, having said that, I do like McDaniels and think if he repairs the rift with Elway all the better.

dsmoot
06-27-2010, 07:30 AM
I like Mike Shanahan and John Elway and Pat Bowlen.

Just as it was time for Dan Reeves to go, it was time for Mike to go. The situation had run its course. Without the Superbowl victories, Mike's leash would have been at least 5 years less, just based on the on field and GM level performance following the 1999 season. When I watch the Redskin coverage with Mike, it is bittersweet for what he accomplished here in Denver.

When I watched Reeves after he left, not bittersweet because I really believe he lost his mind over his perceived level of control and the Elway saga. I do have tremendous respect for where he took the Bronco franchise during his tenure.

It was quite obvious that the Elway/Shanahan relationship was not good following his retirement just by listening to what wasn't being said.

I think Elway's reattachment to the Bronco organization is a tremendous accomplishment. I would love to see Tebow attach himself to him to speed up his learning curve. Tebow is a sponge and Elway is the man who has been through it all from high expectations to intense media scrutiny. That part of the relationship can be as positive as the on field learning. I know Elway comes from a coach's home so I hope that translates to an ability to communicate the things Tebow or Quinn need to learn.

baja
06-27-2010, 07:31 AM
Baja, not to be a dissenting voice...but who am I kidding, of course I am. ;D But I don't believe all of that article is accurate and it's clearly a puff piece to support McD. There is no way Shanny was pissed about the "this one's for John." remark. That just seems inane somehow. Do I think he might have had a problem with Elway for whatever reason, yes, but I find it hard to believe it had anything to do with the Superbowl remark. I suspect at least part of the reason John was kept away was because Shanny wanted total control over his QBs and it would be hard to do that with a living legend around, which can certainly intimidate new QBs or usurp the authority of the HC.

Now, having said that, I do like McDaniels and think if he repairs the rift with Elway all the better.

I think for once Woody nailed it.

BTW I'm amazed you can say all that with that thing in your mouth. ;D j/k

Good job in getting Boob to step in it. You did what many have tried to do.

Wes Mantooth
06-27-2010, 07:34 AM
if I remember correctly, they quit hanging out around the time Elway had a divorce / sister died / Dad died.

Cause of the divide aside, this is great stuff! Can't wait to see him helping out!

Miss I.
06-27-2010, 07:35 AM
I think for once Woody nailed it.

BTW I'm amazed you can say all that with that thing in your mouth. ;D j/k

Good job in getting Boob to step in it. You did what many have tried to do.

You know, now I have to go vomit, thanks for the image. Bastard J/k ;D

But alas, I have to continue to disagree, I think dsmoot nailed it. ;D Good job sir.

theAPAOps5
06-27-2010, 07:37 AM
Its hard to believe that Woody is off base when Elway is quoted in it saying things happened between he and Shanny. Woody can only report and more specifically quote someone if they are ok being on the record.

Miss I.
06-27-2010, 07:43 AM
Its hard to believe that Woody is off base when Elway is quoted in it saying things happened between he and Shanny. Woody can only report and more specifically quote someone if they are ok being on the record.

I don't disagree with that, but this part "However, even after Shana- han and Elway won two Super Bowls (after losing three together) and John retired, the abyss widened, because Bowlen had shouted "this one's for John" after the first title" was not a quote this was his conjecture. I don't think he was off base with the meat of the article, just the idea that one phrase contributed to the rift in any significant way.

CEH
06-27-2010, 07:52 AM
My take is a little simpler
There was a disagreement after Elway decided to retire
Snanny and his ego wanted to go for 3 in a row. Something that has never been done before. Mike's main purpose in life is to get that 3rd SB win so he can be in elite company. The reason why he was always reloading instead of rebuilding. He wanted #3 and Elway was his best way to get there. Plain and simple

Cito Pelon
06-27-2010, 07:52 AM
Baja, not to be a dissenting voice...but who am I kidding, of course I am. ;D But I don't believe all of that article is accurate and it's clearly a puff piece to support McD. There is no way Shanny was pissed about the "this one's for John." remark. That just seems inane somehow. Do I think he might have had a problem with Elway for whatever reason, yes, but I find it hard to believe it had anything to do with the Superbowl remark. I suspect at least part of the reason John was kept away was because Shanny wanted total control over his QBs and it would be hard to do that with a living legend around, which can certainly intimidate new QBs or usurp the authority of the HC.

Now, having said that, I do like McDaniels and think if he repairs the rift with Elway all the better.

Well, one has to remember this is Woody Paige. He plays fast and loose with the truth. With Woody, you have to always think to yourself, "MAYBE this is true, MAYBE that is true". Dude is like an infomercial in print.

baja
06-27-2010, 07:55 AM
Its hard to believe that Woody is off base when Elway is quoted in it saying things happened between he and Shanny. Woody can only report and more specifically quote someone if they are ok being on the record.

Bingo

Yet people still find a way to deny the truth.

I guess the ass Elway is lying about what happened.

First he dissed reeves and now he goes after the Deity Shanahan.

Maybe the big man really is is the little man up stairs......

Rulon Velvet Jones
06-27-2010, 07:56 AM
McDaniels is an egomaniac! He's killing this team! Patriots!

baja
06-27-2010, 07:59 AM
Well, one has to remember this is Woody Paige. He plays fast and loose with the truth. With Woody, you have to always think to yourself, "MAYBE this is true, MAYBE that is true". Dude is like an infomercial in print.

Like Aba said woody directly quotes Elway saying there was a problem. Too that is just stating the obvious.

lostknight
06-27-2010, 08:02 AM
It's good to see Josh McDaniel's embracing some of the Bronco's legacy rather then some of the Patriots. When "we" starts to mean Broncos rather then Patriots, I will be a happy man.

Funny that so many here think that Shanny was a players coach and that MCD is a young ego driven power happy kid that is running off good players and as it turns out it was Shanahan that ran off the greatest Bronco player ever, John Elway. I am glad Josh is setting things right a Dove Valley.

It is going to be interesting to watch Snyder and Shanahan try to co exist, I give it 1 and change seasons before Shanny is out of football again.

If you read it carefully (which is awfully hard because of how tight your eyes are to Josh McDaniel's buttcheecks) John decided not to get involved in a minority bid, and only after he retired. There was no chasing, just the same personality issues that infect every relationship.

Mike Shanahan was a great. As was John Elway. Elway's gone through a hell of a lot the last few years, which is why I suspect that he is interested now in getting involved. Pat Bowlen and Josh McDaniels are taking heap of abuse, and may or may not be under financial pressure - but certainly getting tired of the constant stream of abuse they are taking from both local and national press.

It's in everyone's self interest to move forward, and for Elway to have some "credit" in the Bronco's heir apparent - Tim Tebow.

Cito Pelon
06-27-2010, 08:13 AM
I don't disagree with that, but this part "However, even after Shana- han and Elway won two Super Bowls (after losing three together) and John retired, the abyss widened, because Bowlen had shouted "this one's for John" after the first title" was not a quote this was his conjecture. I don't think he was off base with the meat of the article, just the idea that one phrase contributed to the rift in any significant way.

Agreed.

BTW, Elway was on the local radio show every Monday last season. Long segments, usually 30-45 minutes, and that's long segments by radio standards. Some of us tried to mention that last year among all the "wreck and ruin" hysteria. Deep critiques about all aspects of the team, Elway knows football. And he was generally full of praise the direction the team was going, commented often he talked with McD informally about the team. BTW, Rod Smith also was on local radio every Thursday for a long segment.

Both of them had long segments and did general critiques, not just fluff stuff. They both went into some deep critiques of the team and came off sounding like they'd want to be involved in some capacity with getting the team back into elite status, but certainly not in a way that interfered with day-to-day coaching.

Whether John & Rod were angling for a salaried position, had an agenda in mind for 2010, I don't know, but both sounded very genuinely excited about being in on a resurgence of the franchise.

baja
06-27-2010, 08:15 AM
It's good to see Josh McDaniel's embracing some of the Bronco's legacy rather then some of the Patriots. When "we" starts to mean Broncos rather then Patriots, I will be a happy man.



If you read it carefully (which is awfully hard because of how tight your eyes are to Josh McDaniel's buttcheecks) John decided not to get involved in a minority bid, and only after he retired. There was no chasing, just the same personality issues that infect every relationship.

Mike Shanahan was a great. As was John Elway. Elway's gone through a hell of a lot the last few years, which is why I suspect that he is interested now in getting involved. Pat Bowlen and Josh McDaniels are taking heap of abuse, and may or may not be under financial pressure - but certainly getting tired of the constant stream of abuse they are taking from both local and national press.

It's in everyone's self interest to move forward, and for Elway to have some "credit" in the Bronco's heir apparent - Tim Tebow.

I just quoted a post of yours in another thread saying I did not think you could get it any more wrong and here in your very next post you did get it more wrong. Congrats!

DBroncos4life
06-27-2010, 08:18 AM
LOL like there wasn't a number of former Broncos hanging around and helping out Mike Shanahan.

baja
06-27-2010, 08:19 AM
LOL like there wasn't a number of former Broncos hanging around and helping out Mike Shanahan.

Like who, Al Wilson?

Hogan11
06-27-2010, 08:19 AM
Maybe Shanahan resented the fact that Elway didn't come back to try for three in a row. I remember soon after the second super bowl win, both appeared on the Tonight Show where Leno asked Elway if he was coming back for another run and Shanahan said something like "three would be nice John" and Elway hedged. (I looked for a clip of this on You Tube, but to no avail).

Maybe being stuck defending the championship with the likes of Brister & Griese created some resentment there? It's no more of a stretch than anything else in the thread.

lostknight
06-27-2010, 08:20 AM
I just quoted a post of yours in another thread saying I did not think you could get it any more wrong and here in your very next post you did get it more wrong. Congrats!

Hmm. It's like I am suddenly debating my son. me: "here is why you are wrong, a,b,c,d,e,f"

You: "nuh-oh"

With rhetorical genius like this, I can't imagine why you limit your scope to talking about the Broncos.

As a side note, I really hope that they do this - John Elway in the building will really help some identity issues that are ripping this team apart.

baja
06-27-2010, 08:20 AM
Or maybe TD?

Or Zim maybe


was it Stinky

Oh I know it was eddie Mac.

Help me out here who were those Broncos heros hanging at Dove valley "helping" Mike.

DBroncos4life
06-27-2010, 08:24 AM
Like who, Al Wilson?

Really baja? You're helpless. I love how all of the sudden Woody's word is gospel and not a crazy nut job but in all of his articles bashing McD you thought he was. What about when he was calling for Simms over Orton was he a great writer there?

baja
06-27-2010, 08:24 AM
Hmm. It's like I am suddenly debating my son. me: "here is why you are wrong, a,b,c,d,e,f"

You: "nuh-oh"

With rhetorical genius like this, I can't imagine why you limit your scope to talking about the Broncos.

As a side note, I really hope that they do this - John Elway in the building will really help some identity issues that are ripping this team apart.

How does one rebut someone that calls a direct quote from the person in question a lie.

Ya John is lying him and Shanny are really best of friends and the reason he was never around Dove valley was because he needed time to reflect on life.

lostknight
06-27-2010, 08:25 AM
Woody has consistently been in McDaniels corner, so he has consistently been Baja's favorite writer.

Until Tebow has won a few games, don't compare him to Elway. until McDaniels has one a few rings, don't compare him with Shanahan.

baja
06-27-2010, 08:27 AM
Really baja? You're helpless. I love how all of the sudden Woody's word is gospel and not a crazy nut job but in all of his articles bashing McD you thought he was. What about when he was calling for Simms over Orton was he a great writer there?

John wasn't as welcomed before.

There was a breakdown between Elway and Mike Shana- han.

<b>"Honestly, some things went on between Mike and me," said Elway, who wouldn't elaborate.</b>

Do you know the difference between a direct quote and opinion?

DBroncos4life
06-27-2010, 08:29 AM
John wasn't as welcomed before.

There was a breakdown between Elway and Mike Shana- han.

<b>"Honestly, some things went on between Mike and me," said Elway, who wouldn't elaborate.</b>

Do you know the difference between a direct quote and opinion?

Yes I do

lostknight
06-27-2010, 08:30 AM
How does one rebut someone that calls a direct quote from the person in question a lie.

Ya John is lying him and Shanny are really best of friends and the reason he was never around Dove valley was because he needed time to reflect on life.

Now I just suspect you are illiterate, because you clearly didn't read what I wrote, or once again, it might just be the McDaniels shaped glasses. I never accused anyone of lying, nor did I disagree with this article. That isn't to say that I think it's even close to the full story, as Elway himself represents.

People say whatever is in their best interest to say, and while I have no doubt that there was a falling out between Mike Shanahan and Elway, I also suspect that John's strong interest in a _controlling_ interest in the Broncos and refusal of the part ownership strained that relationship and the one with Bowlen significantly.

Remember that Elway had serious skin in the UFL debacle. Just like everyone else, he has things to gain by a rapprochement with the Broncos. The fact that Shanahan didn't get along with everyone is secondary to this basic truth - outside of Rod Smith and Tim Tebow - everyone in the NFL is there for themselves.

baja
06-27-2010, 08:31 AM
Woody has consistently been in McDaniels corner, so he has consistently been Baja's favorite writer.

Until Tebow has won a few games, don't compare him to Elway. until McDaniels has one a few rings, don't compare him with Shanahan.

I got an idea go tell you son what to do but don't assume you have that privilege with me.

I don't compare Josh with Shanny Josh is better.

And it is my opinion that Tebow will be right up there with Elway in what he does for the Broncos and it sounds like Elway thinks he has a shot too.

baja
06-27-2010, 08:32 AM
Yes I do


You don't argue like you know the difference.

baja
06-27-2010, 08:37 AM
Amazing how the eyes glaze over when some negative info comes forth on a scared cow.

scorpio
06-27-2010, 08:39 AM
McDaniels is an egomaniac! He's killing this team! Patriots!

I'm scorpio and I approve this message.

lostknight
06-27-2010, 08:39 AM
I don't compare Josh with Shanny Josh is better.


Which is your opinion, and opinion only. Please don't try to force it on everyone else as fact, because right now McDaniels has done a grand total of diddly-squat as a NFL head coach.


And it is my opinion that Tebow will be right up there with Elway in what he does for the Broncos and it sounds like Elway thinks he has a shot too.

At least you admit that's a opinion, and one I happen to share, but still a opinion. until Tebow has his own Drive, and his own Super Bowl rings - and until Orton wins one himself, and Quinn proves to be something other then a innacurate QB, comparing any element of this team to the 96-98 Broncos is a farce. Bringing Elway back into the house is a step in the right direction.

Cito Pelon
06-27-2010, 08:41 AM
Like Aba said woody directly quotes Elway saying there was a problem. Too that is just stating the obvious.

I like the article, but Woody's articles always have some innuendo in there that is way off-base, hence Miss I's point. Hell, Woody was adamant that Elway and McD never talked in 2009, which was just flat false. I guess this is a kiss and makeup article from Woody for that journalistic gaff. But, of course, good ol' Woody, a zebra can't change his stripes, Woody has to throw some innuendo in there.

Edit: Good Lord, dude, don't your fingers know the difference btwn a 'b' and a 'p' on the keyboard? I saw "Aba" and I was thinking wtf does a pop band have to do with this thread? Hell dude, the b and the p keys are like a klick apart on the keyboard. Lay off those mad-cow tacos for breakfast. :wiggle:

scorpio
06-27-2010, 08:42 AM
Amazing how the eyes glaze over when some negative info comes forth on a scared cow.

The signal-to-noise ratio in your posts rivals that of watermock.

baja
06-27-2010, 08:47 AM
Which is your opinion, and opinion only. Please don't try to force it on everyone else as fact, because right now McDaniels has done a grand total of diddly-squat as a NFL head coach.



At least you admit that's a opinion, and one I happen to share, but still a opinion. until Tebow has his own Drive, and his own Super Bowl rings - and until Orton wins one himself, and Quinn proves to be something other then a innacurate QB, comparing any element of this team to the 96-98 Broncos is a farce. Bringing Elway back into the house is a step in the right direction.

Oh ya that is what I'm doing comparing the first year coach Josh McD's team to the Broncos SUper Bowl years. You'll help me out and show me where I said that right?

You named yourself well "The lost night"

baja
06-27-2010, 08:49 AM
I like the article, but Woody's articles always have some innuendo in there that is way off-base, hence Miss I's point. Hell, Woody was adamant that Elway and McD never talked in 2009, which was just flat false. I guess this is a kiss and makeup article from Woody for that journalistic gaff. But, of course, good ol' Woody, a zebra can't change his stripes, Woody has to throw some innuendo in there.

Edit: Good Lord, dude, don't your fingers know the difference btwn a 'b' and a 'p' on the keyboard? I saw "Aba" and I was thinking wtf does a pop band have to do with this thread? Hell dude, the b and the p keys are like a klick apart on the keyboard. Lay off those mad-cow tacos for breakfast. :wiggle:

Dude I'm mildly dyslexic I've tried to correct that for years. It's weird really.

WolfpackGuy
06-27-2010, 08:53 AM
Both were probably sick of the Elway needs Shanahan and vice versa discussion.

I do remember Shanahan being miffed that Elway announced his retirement so late.

The press conference was at least a few months after winning Super Bowl XXIII.

Cito Pelon
06-27-2010, 08:59 AM
Woody has consistently been in McDaniels corner, so he has consistently been Baja's favorite writer.

Until Tebow has won a few games, don't compare him to Elway. until McDaniels has one a few rings, don't compare him with Shanahan.

Don't make me laugh. I've noticed you like to sneer at all things positive about the Broncos. Critiques are fine with me, but the constant sneering tone you and some others present is irritating. You, KipCorrinton, you chip in once in a while, and only to present a sneer or attack someone's positive post.

Cito Pelon
06-27-2010, 09:09 AM
Oh ya that is what I'm doing comparing the first year coach Josh McD's team to the Broncos SUper Bowl years. You'll help me out and show me where I said that right?

You named yourself well "The lost night"

That's where some of the posters make a jackass of themselves, they somehow thought it was a given that a new HC would win the Lombardi because that's what new coaches are supposed to do in their first year.

No matter the last HC had only one AFC West title in ten years. It's amazing Shanny is still up on the pedestal when he couldn't even win the AFC West title but once in ten years.

Hulamau
06-27-2010, 09:14 AM
Woody just gave me a woody.

Yeah man!

baja
06-27-2010, 09:14 AM
The signal-to-noise ratio in your posts rivals that of watermock.

Well I'm not the one that chose a flame thrower for my avatar.

Hulamau
06-27-2010, 09:22 AM
Hmm. It's like I am suddenly debating my son. me: "here is why you are wrong, a,b,c,d,e,f"

You: "nuh-oh"

With rhetorical genius like this, I can't imagine why you limit your scope to talking about the Broncos.

As a side note, I really hope that they do this - John Elway in the building will really help some identity issues that are ripping this team apart.

Drama Queen Alert!!

This team is becoming more cohesive than at anytime since the SB years. You apparently just don't have the eyes to see it yet. Maybe read a little less of the national media's take you reference as a 'source' on the Broncos and get a little better feel for what's really happening at Dove Valley before getting a little too hysterical on us LK.

baja
06-27-2010, 09:26 AM
Drama Queen Alert!!

Why do you think he calls himself the Lost Knight?

Just think of all the perfectly named posters on this board.

Hell I feel a thread coming

"Rename that poster"

baja
06-27-2010, 09:28 AM
Shanahan should have been fired after the 06 season. That was the only display of gutlessness on Bowlen's part.

Cito Pelon
06-27-2010, 09:32 AM
Dude I'm mildly dyslexic I've tried to correct that for years. It's weird really.

You meant to say lysdexic. It's ok. ;)

I like the article. I just want to see some movement in the team, I want to see something happen. And I'm seeing it. I hope some of the contract issues with Elvis and Champ can be worked out where both sides of the coin are happy and they can build this D up to kickass levels again like the old Crush days where it was just plain kickass.

Hulamau
06-27-2010, 09:35 AM
Really baja? You're helpless. I love how all of the sudden Woody's word is gospel and not a crazy nut job but in all of his articles bashing McD you thought he was. What about when he was calling for Simms over Orton was he a great writer there?


With this type of article the message is far more the issue than the messenger. This isn't just an opinion peice or Woody's analysis. Here the writer is almost an afterthought, this was clearly a message Elway, Josh and the Broncos front office wanted to convey.

Whether it was Woody, who is prone to huge gaffs as well between relatively informative articles, Klis - probably the most level headed of the three or Mark 'Mr Negative' Kizla, is a minor footnote here.

Dont lose sight of the forest here for the trees, DB4F.

baja
06-27-2010, 09:40 AM
You meant to say lysdexic. It's ok. ;)

I like the article. I just want to see some movement in the team, I want to see something happen. And I'm seeing it. I hope some of the contract issues with Elvis and Champ can be worked out where both sides of the coin are happy and they can build this D up to kickass levels again like the old Crush days where it was just plain kickass.

LOL seems I can't spell very well either. I should have studied at Mars U. ;D

gunns
06-27-2010, 09:47 AM
I had heard that Shanahan was upset with Elway for not contacting him and informing him of his plans to retire well in advance. Whatever the reason I have never doubted it was Shanahan's ego that got in the way. I don't think there is any doubt that Shanahan was bound and determined to show he could win without Elway and panicked in the process, lost his true expertise by not giving up the GM and sticking to pure coaching. Regardless it was Shanahan's mistake and I don't give a **** if this is to perk McD's image or whatever, I'm thrilled to have the franchise back in the fold.

NYBronco
06-27-2010, 09:50 AM
Every Bronco fan should now be glad Shanahan and his ego have been run out of town by the " gutless drunk".

Thank you Mr.Bowlen and if you are a gutless drunk it is not for firing Mike Shanahan but for waiting way too long to do it.

The "gutless drunk" took the biggest risk in the success of his multi-million dollar franchise by releasing the ever popular Shanahan and maintaining status quo. That's no where near being gutless. The Broncos since the unpopular decision was made have been negatively criticised and ridiculed for hiring the young Josh McDaniels. Now John Elway is back in the house and for me it just keeps getting better.

Thank you, Pat Bowlen and to John, Welcome Home!

It's long over due on so many levels.

baja
06-27-2010, 09:58 AM
The "gutless drunk" took the biggest risk in the success of his multi-million dollar franchise by releasing the ever popular Shanahan and maintaining status quo. That's no where near being gutless. The Broncos since the unpopular decision was made have been negatively criticised and ridiculed for hiring the young Josh McDaniels. Now John Elway is back in the house and for me it just keeps getting better.

Thank you, Pat Bowlen and to John, Welcome Home!

It's long over due on so many levels.

Just as in life the cream (of the posters) always rise to the top.

Why this take is not obvious to all is beyond me. Rep NYB.

SoCalBronco
06-27-2010, 10:00 AM
So how do you peeps reconcile you hero Shanahan treating your hero Elway like this.

I'd like to hear the righteous rev's take on this.

I'd like to hear the enraged So Cal's take on this.



I'd like to hear the author of the gutless drunk thread Taco John's take on this.


I'd say that Shanny and Snyder are a perfect match.

I'm not quite sure why you are automatically assuming that keeping John out was a bad thing. Shanahan had total control of the organization. It's obvious that John wanted to eventually be in a GM capacity one day. Shanny had that all wrapped up himself. That's just how he operates. Whether it was a good idea for Shanny to keep the FO portion of the job duties all to himself is a seperate question from whether it's a good idea to start involving John in the FO. Keep in mind, the article is objectively INCORRECT as to John's involvmenet as a whole in the Broncos. He wasn't persona non grata....he showed up at Dove Valley from time to time....Shanny always spoke glowingly of him and ofcourse he brought the whole team to attend the HOF induction. Shanny simply didn't want him to get into Bowlen's ear re: a FO role (that would only get bigger and bigger). John wants to run a team. He's said that before many times. He actually ran the AFL team in Colorado.

Shanny probably didn't want him to get involved in the NFL because he thought that he had it already under wraps and also because he probably thought John was unqualified. Again.....whether it was a good idea to have Shanny run everything is one issue...its questionable whether that was a good idea looking back on it. It's a seperate question as to whether it should be John of all people, having a FO role in the organization. I absolutely agree that he's unqualified to have a FO role. That's what we're REALLy talking about here. Running an AFL team is not sufficient experience. He doesn't have the scouting experience, the cap experience, the day to day operations management experience to be doing that and if he got a foot in the door, it would only grow because of Bowlen. We need trained and experienced football people in the FO. Again, this does not mean I agree that only Shanny should have been running the show, but there should have been an independent, experienced NFL GM....not John Elway in the shadows whispering in Bowlen's ear. Bowlen's quite susceptible to that...especially these days. We have enough shadowy figures whispering into his ears already (Ellis), we didn't need and still don't need people he has strong personal feelings for affecting his purely football decisions. The ideal scenario would have been a purely independent and qualified GM and staff (which we still don't have, BTW). And as between the two other scenarios, Shanny having full control, or Elway getting a foot in the door and then having a "presence" over football issues, I'd say what we ended up having was the lesser of two evils.

I'm not quite sure why you are boasting about this article...I don't see how it helps you. I'm glad he didn't get his foot in the door in football operations. He's the best QB in the history of the NFL. He wasn't, however, qualified to just step into the FO (which is what he wanted) and have a "presence". I'm kinda ticked that he vaguely trashed Mike like that. Mike never said a bad word about him in public. Ever. Mike did alot for him and helped him win two titles. Just because he wanted to keep a tight rein over everything doesn't mean you take a shot at him after he's gone. Just let it be.

Broncoman13
06-27-2010, 10:10 AM
I seem to remember Shanny wanting John out so that he could prove he could win without him. That is, he could prove to the football world that he was the important piece of the puzzle, not the great John Elway. Shanny would have readily took him back as that was the easiest route for a three-pete, but he pushed Elway away with his, my system is king moto. Not unlike McD in some ways, the system is more important than the individual members.

SoCalBronco
06-27-2010, 10:10 AM
this was clearly a message Elway, Josh and the Broncos front office wanted to convey.



This I definitely agree with. And it horrifies me. Why are they going out of their way to do this to Mike? Ok..so he wanted to have tight control, so what? John wasn't qualified to have a role, anyway. If this article means that he's going to have a significant role in actual football operations, eventually (they've mentioned marketing only so far, but that's kinda a thinly veiled thing), that concerns me. That hurts Josh. He doesn't need a towering legendary presence in the background whispering in Bowlen's ear anymore than Mike did. If you are correct that this article is something the FO and Elway personally wanted Woody to convey then it probably means Shanahan will never end up in the ROF, on his own volition. I'm sure they'll extend it to him, but he's not the type of guy that will reconcile with you when you start taking backhanded shots at him after he's gone. I can guaratee that neither Bowlen nor Elway would be asked to give his HOF induction speech (well...its probably a good idea never to ask Bowlen to do that again, anyway) and that saddens me. I want it to be a Bronco-themed event, but I don't think it will be...partially due to stupid stuff like this. I hope they thought about that before they started telling Woody to do stupid stuff like this.

broncswin
06-27-2010, 10:18 AM
Keeping John out was a bad thing...this guy is the Broncos...He brought this organization out of the dumps...Shanny was a great at a lot of things...but was Shiatty at a few important things as well. I love that Elway and Mcd are getting to know each other, and hearing Elway giving props to Tebow is just awsome.

Shanny: wouldn't even let Elway come back into the mix (dumb)
McD: sounds like he is trying to get Elway back in the mix (smart)

Cutler: thinks he has a stronger arm than Elway-LMAO, wouldn't take any advice from John and John apparently did like him enough to give any

Tebow: uses the advice that Elway gives and realizes he is not the greatest to ever play the position. Elway must like this kid because he is willing to invite him to the B-day party and then have a sit down with him.

End result...very good to have Elway back in the mix

SoCalBronco
06-27-2010, 10:22 AM
Keeping John out was a bad thing...this guy is the Broncos

Again....he wasn't kept out of the Broncos. He was just kept out of an organizational/FO role. That's what he wanted. He said several times he wanted to run a team. If you think he would have been satisfied doing marketing...I don't really know what to tell you. He wasn't qualified and still isn't qualified to have a role in running the actual team, which is what would have happened eventually due to his stature. That would have hurt the Broncos. You need professionals, not legendary former players.

DBroncos4life
06-27-2010, 10:24 AM
This I definitely agree with. And it horrifies me. Why are they going out of their way to do this to Mike? Ok..so he wanted to have tight control, so what? John wasn't qualified to have a role, anyway. If this article means that he's going to have a significant role in actual football operations, eventually (they've mentioned marketing only so far, but that's kinda a thinly veiled thing), that concerns me. That hurts Josh. He doesn't need a towering legendary presence in the background whispering in Bowlen's ear anymore than Mike did. If you are correct that this article is something the FO and Elway personally wanted Woody to convey then it probably means Shanahan will never end up in the ROF, on his own volition. I'm sure they'll extend it to him, but he's not the type of guy that will reconcile with you when you start taking backhanded shots at him after he's gone. I can guaratee that neither Bowlen nor Elway would be asked to give his HOF induction speech (well...its probably a good idea never to ask Bowlen to do that again, anyway) and that saddens me. I want it to be a Bronco-themed event, but I don't think it will be...partially due to stupid stuff like this. I hope they thought about that before they started telling Woody to do stupid stuff like this.

Pretty much how I feel about it as well.

Broncoman13
06-27-2010, 10:26 AM
Btw, I agree with SoCal. Elway doesn't have the experience to run a front office. I would much prefer a role of consulting, which it seems is what he is doing. He'll have opinions and will speak from a position of trust but not authority. I'm okay with how this is going and hope that it won't be much more than that until he develops the INS and outs of running all things relating to the business operations side. As far as coaching, I am sure he can offer some great insight, but he cannot give anyone his ability. Gonna be hard for him to be a great coach ever... Then again, Mike Singletary is doing pretty well and is similar to Elway in that regard.

broncswin
06-27-2010, 10:26 AM
Again....he wasn't kept out of the Broncos. He was just kept out of an organizational/FO role. That's what he wanted. He said several times he wanted to run a team. If you think he would have been satisfied doing marketing...I don't really know what to tell you. He wasn't qualified and still isn't qualified to have a role in running the actual team, which is what would have happened eventually due to his stature. That would have hurt the Broncos. You need professionals, not legendary former players.

Ya but you gotta start the learning process somewhere...how do you know Elway wouldn't do a great job with a few years of mentoring. You would think Shanny would have enough confidence in himself to teach Elway some of the ropes and not fear this proposal. You keep saying he isn't qualified...give him some time under Shanny. John isn't dumb, he would have sat quietly and learned under Shanny, because John likes to be successful in what he does. If you don't think that my thinking is right, then I don't know what to tell you.

baja
06-27-2010, 10:40 AM
I'm not quite sure why you are automatically assuming that keeping John out was a bad thing. Shanahan had total control of the organization. It's obvious that John wanted to eventually be in a GM capacity one day.

Obvious! I don't think that is obvious,in fact I doubt it's true. What do you base Elway wanted to be GM on.

Shanny had that all wrapped up himself. That's just how he operates. Whether it was a good idea for Shanny to keep the FO portion of the job duties all to himself is a separate question from whether it's a good idea to start involving John in the FO. Keep in mind, the article is objectively INCORRECT as to John's involvement as a whole in the Broncos. He wasn't persona non grata...


We really don't know that,what we do know is John "This one is for John" Elway visits were few and far between.

he showed up at Dove Valley from time to time....Shanny always spoke glowingly of him and of course he brought the whole team to attend the HOF induction.

Could he have played it any other way? No of course not!

Shanny simply didn't want him to get into Bowlen's ear re: a FO role (that would only get bigger and bigger). John wants to run a team. He's said that before many times. He actually ran the AFL team in Colorado.

Please show me one quote where John expressed any interest in taking over the GM position. What you are saying here is Pat Bowlen is so stupid that he would let his emotions rule and hand Elway the GM position because he was a great QB. Ridiculous.

Shanny probably didn't want him to get involved in the NFL because he thought that he had it already under wraps and also because he probably thought John was unqualified. Again.....whether it was a good idea to have Shanny run everything is one issue...its questionable whether that was a good idea looking back on it. It's a separate question as to whether it should be John of all people, having a FO role in the organization. I absolutely agree that he's unqualified to have a FO role.

see above.


That's what we're REALLy talking about here. Running an AFL team is not sufficient experience. He doesn't have the scouting experience, the cap experience, the day to day operations management experience to be doing that and if he got a foot in the door, it would only grow because of Bowlen. We need trained and experienced football people in the FO. Again, this does not mean I agree that only Shanny should have been running the show, but there should have been an independent, experienced NFL GM....not John Elway in the shadows whispering in Bowlen's ear. Bowlen's quite susceptible to that...especially these days. We have enough shadowy figures whispering into his ears already (Ellis), we didn't need and still don't need people he has strong personal feelings for affecting his purely football decisions. The ideal scenario would have been a purely independent and qualified GM and staff (which we still don't have, BTW). And as between the two other scenarios, Shanny having full control, or Elway getting a foot in the door and then having a "presence" over football issues, I'd say what we ended up having was the lesser of two evils.

I'm not quite sure why you are boasting about this article...I don't see how it helps you. I'm glad he didn't get his foot in the door in football operations. He's the best QB in the history of the NFL. He wasn't, however, qualified to just step into the FO (which is what he wanted) and have a "presence". I'm kinda ticked that he vaguely trashed Mike like that. Mike never said a bad word about him in public. Ever. Mike did alot for him and helped him win two titles. Just because he wanted to keep a tight rein over everything doesn't mean you take a shot at him after he's gone. Just let it be.

You are the one running with the Elway for GM idea I don't think there was ever a chance in hell of Bowlen giving him that job. In fact Bowlen offering John 20 % of the Broncos pretty much proves there was never any thought of him becoming GM. He would be an un-fireable GM and Bowlen would never put himself in that position.

Your whole post is full of ridiculous assumptions.

This is a simple case of Shanny's ego carving out his kingdom

Hulamau
06-27-2010, 10:41 AM
This I definitely agree with. And it horrifies me. Why are they going out of their way to do this to Mike? Ok..so he wanted to have tight control, so what? John wasn't qualified to have a role, anyway. If this article means that he's going to have a significant role in actual football operations, eventually (they've mentioned marketing only so far, but that's kinda a thinly veiled thing), that concerns me. That hurts Josh. He doesn't need a towering legendary presence in the background whispering in Bowlen's ear anymore than Mike did. If you are correct that this article is something the FO and Elway personally wanted Woody to convey then it probably means Shanahan will never end up in the ROF, on his own volition. I'm sure they'll extend it to him, but he's not the type of guy that will reconcile with you when you start taking backhanded shots at him after he's gone. I can guaratee that neither Bowlen nor Elway would be asked to give his HOF induction speech (well...its probably a good idea never to ask Bowlen to do that again, anyway) and that saddens me. I want it to be a Bronco-themed event, but I don't think it will be...partially due to stupid stuff like this. I hope they thought about that before they started telling Woody to do stupid stuff like this.

Think you may be reading into this one a little too far SoCal. This article wasnt so much about Shanny as it is about the future and bringing Elway back into the fold.

It was no secret there was a strain between John and Mike long before McDaniels ever got here. Josh doesn't have a beef with Shanny either.

Its not as if the issue betwen Mike and Elway isnt a real legitimate subject that a reporter might want to discuss when given the opportunity for such an Elway reunion peice. How do you write a reunion peice without even mentioning why he was estranged in the first place??

No I think the message the FO and Elway wanted to emphasize here was on the postives of getting Josh and John together on the same page as a benefit for the franchise. Elway isnt going to steam role McD, nor does he want to be head coach. But he can be a hell of an asset in teaching guys like Tebow, Thomas, Decker the finer nuances of being a winner in this league with an authority that will get players attention.

John didnt go into bashing Shanny either, only acknowledged discretely what everyone knew already. The comments on 'This one 's for John' was classic Woody but may well have more than a kernal of truth to it as well.

Shanny was and is (I suspect) a great coach who did great things for the team, NFL and city. But he has a serious ego and a bit of a vindictive mean streak as well so having a falling out with Elway isnt too surprising either. Can you image for a guy like Mike who is so driven to be reminded over and over he could only win it all with Elway on board and only manage one play off win in ten seasons without Elway? Must have been a thorn in Shanny's shoe no doubt t hat may well have been part of why no reconcilation did take place while Shanny was here.

Maybe if he had won it all again without John, the ice would have melted? We'll never know but Shanny has been known to hold a grudge for a long time .. just ask Al Davis :-).

In any event, the purpose of the article isnt to slam Shanny, but to reopen the door to a legend here that can help not only as an inspirational influence in player developement, but in the PR arena as well! It also highlights Josh's openness and willingness to do anything that might help this team get back on top. Kudos to Josh for that!

Can imagine they both get along as well with Josh's knowledge of the game and QB in particular, and both being coaches sons etc.

But I just think you are really reaching here in trying to view this as a nefarious 'Out to Smear Shanny' campaign by the FO as the motive behind this article.

Have a relaxing Sundag whatever you got going!

SoCalBronco
06-27-2010, 10:50 AM
You are the one running with the Elway for GM idea I don't there was ever a chance in hell of Bowlen giving him that job. In fact Bowlen offering John 20 % of the Broncos pretty much proves there was never any thought of him becoming GM. He would be an un-fireable GM and Bowlen would never put himself in that position.

Your whole post is full of ridiculous assumptions.

This is a simple case of Shanny's ego carving out his kingdom

I'm not sure how Bowlen offering him 20% of the team rules out the thought of him becoming the GM? I hope you aren't suggesting that owners don't have control over team operations. It would have put him in an even powerful role. The facts are as follows: He's said on many occasions that he wants to run a team. He in fact ran a team in the AFL. There is one quote where he said he wanted to get involved in the Broncos FO but that Mike already has that pretty much under control (not in this article but in a past article). He wants to run a team. Period. It's on record. It doesn't matter the title....advisor, part-owner, whatever. That's neither a good or bad thing...its actually kinda neat...we'd all like to do that. I know I would. It's just that he's unqualified and that we all know that as a practical matter, given his stature and Bowlen's feeling for him, no matter how you phrased his title or his position, we know for a certainty that it would amount to more than what it is on paper, either initially or over time and that hurts the Broncos. He's not a professional manager. He lacks the skills required. It's not a learn as you go, job. This is a billion dollar business. There's no room for sentamentality on these types of things.

baja
06-27-2010, 10:56 AM
I'm not sure how Bowlen offering him 20% of the team rules out the thought of him becoming the GM? I hope you aren't suggesting that owners don't have control over team operations. It would have put him in an even powerful role. The facts are as follows: He's said on many occasions that he wants to run a team. He in fact ran a team in the AFL. There is one quote where he said he wanted to get involved in the Broncos FO but that Mike already has that pretty much under control (not in this article but in a past article). He wants to run a team. Period. It's on record. It doesn't matter the title....advisor, part-owner, whatever. That's neither a good or bad thing...its actually kinda neat...we'd all like to do that. I know I would. It's just that he's unqualified and that we all know that as a practical matter, given his stature and Bowlen's feeling for him, no matter how you phrased his title or his position, we know for a certainty that it would amount to more than what it is on paper, either initially or over time and that hurts the Broncos. He's not a professional manager. He lacks the skills required. It's not a learn as you go, job. This is a billion dollar business. There's no room for sentamentality on these types of things.

Lots of people want lots of things and elway wanting to run a team has nothing to do with his ability to get the job. Everyone on this board knows Elway was not qualified for a job like that and if you think Pat Bowlen would be so stupid as to hire John Elway in 1999 to be GM of the Broncos than you are putting Bowlen in Al Davis league. Your favorite team is owned by one of the best owners in all of pro sport franchises, too bad you don't know that...

gunns
06-27-2010, 10:58 AM
Ok..so he wanted to have tight control, so what?

It didn't work. And that has nothing to do with Elway. I think what it's about is Elway would have liked to have been a part of the team. Not GM, even any type of coach, just give something to the team that he made and made him. And the team could have used it with the QB's. The tension between Elway and Shanahan kept him away. It was smart of Elway to go the Arena football route, he got some experience. Everyone knows he's smart, I don't believe he would get into anything he didn't feel he could do.

SoCalBronco
06-27-2010, 11:02 AM
Lots of people want lots of things and elway wanting to run a team has nothing to do with his ability to get the job. Everyone on this board knows Elway was not qualified for a job like that and if you think Pat Bowlen would be so stupid as to hire John Elway in 1999 to be GM of the Broncos than you are putting Bowlen in Al Davis league. Your favorite team is owned by one of the best owners in all of pro sport franchises, too bad you don't know that...

I'm not talking about 1999, I'm talking about now. He's still not qualified. Running an AFL franchise and 75 cents gets you a mediocre cup of coffee. It's not John's fault that whatever role he got would bloom into something greater just due to who he is, but let's not pretend that he only wants a limited role. He wants to run an NFL team as an executive. He's said that before many times. Here's one article from Krieger shortly after Shanny was fired discussing it (and there's another that I can't find currently but I remember a specific quote as mentioned in my other post): http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/dec/30/krieger-goodbye-shanahan-hello-elway/

As for Pat, I guess we agree to disagree. I don't think he's what he once was. He's now got Joe Ellis whispering in his ear and he just doesn't seem to be on top of things...at least not totally. His performance last summer was less than inspiring and whether its age or something else, I'm not sure, but he's not quite the same. I just don't have the confidence that he could keep Elway's role properly confined. I just don't.

baja
06-27-2010, 11:02 AM
BTW The first year coach Josh McD should by rights have more insecurity about having a more ready to handle a FO job Elway around than the tenured supper bowl winning Shanahan ever did, yet it was Shanny that was paranoid not Josh. Josh already has a better temperament to run our Broncos than Shanny ever did. Shanny did not know his limitations. Josh acknowledges his mistakes and endeavors to learn from them.

Shanny was a great battle planner but a lousy over all general

colonelbeef
06-27-2010, 11:02 AM
Bunch of people conjecturing on things they know next to nothing about, and Baja claiming that Josh McDaniels is a better coach than Mike (HOF upcoming) Shanahan.

Laughably useless thread

gunns
06-27-2010, 11:08 AM
I'm not talking about 1999, I'm talking about now. He's still not qualified. Running an AFL franchise and 75 cents gets you a mediocre cup of coffee. It's not John's fault that whatever role he got would bloom into something greater just due to who he is, but let's not pretend that he only wants a limited role. He wants to run an NFL team as an executive. He's said that before many times. Here's one article from Krieger shortly after Shanny was fired discussing it (and there's another that I can't find currently but I remember a specific quote as mentioned in my other post): http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/dec/30/krieger-goodbye-shanahan-hello-elway/

As for Pat, I guess we agree to disagree. I don't think he's what he once was. He's now got Joe Ellis whispering in his ear and he just doesn't seem to be on top of things...at least not totally. His performance last summer was less than inspiring and whether its age or something else, I'm not sure, but he's not quite the same. I just don't have the confidence that he could keep Elway's role properly confined. I just don't.

Maybe Bowlen couldn't, but I think Elway could. I do believe Elway eventually wants to run an NFL team but I also don't believe he wants to jump right into the position. Like I said, Elway is smart, he'll learn the job before trying to do the job.

ColoradoDarin
06-27-2010, 11:14 AM
Well, one thing I think this means. It's going to be hell playing the skins. I can imagine that Shanny is going to want to stick it to Bowlen/John and he will start planning for those games just like he did for the raiders.

baja
06-27-2010, 11:15 AM
I'm not talking about 1999, I'm talking about now. He's still not qualified. Running an AFL franchise and 75 cents gets you a mediocre cup of coffee. It's not John's fault that whatever role he got would bloom into something greater just due to who he is, but let's not pretend that he only wants a limited role. He wants to run an NFL team as an executive. He's said that before many times. Here's one article from Krieger shortly after Shanny was fired discussing it (and there's another that I can't find currently but I remember a specific quote as mentioned above): http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/dec/30/krieger-goodbye-shanahan-hello-elway/

As for Pat, I guess we agree to disagree. I don't think he's what he once was. He's now got Joe Ellis whispering in his ear and he just doesn't seem to be on top of things...at least not totally. His performance last summer was less than inspiring and whether its age or something else, I'm not sure, but he's not quite the same. I just don't have the confidence that he could keep Elway's role properly confined. I just don't.

I don't know why you keep talking about Elway and a GM job. You have brought this into the discussion why? We agree 100% in that Elway is not qualified to be GM and I do not believe he wants that job. It is not the point here. It's not even a good deflection on your part.

Here' my point

Shanny's ego hurt the Broncos more than his Xs & Os helped them.

Josh at a young age is way ahead of Shanahan in this area and I am very grateful that it is Josh running things and not Shanny.

It's a good feeling to see John will be welcomed around Dove Valley is it not?

Josh is humble enough to recognize his mistakes and correct them Shanahan was not.

I think it is a huge leap to judge Bowlen near incompetent you have no hard evidence of this. Every one that is anyone in the NFL has huge respect for Bowlen yet you make this leap of faith that he is diminished. Where's you evidence counselor?

uplink
06-27-2010, 11:17 AM
Seems also that Dan Reeves has been separated from the broncos as well, wonder if that has to do with Shanny. Probably also problems with Elway and Bowlen.

The guy does deserve some appreciation though, the ring of fame if coaches are eligible.

baja
06-27-2010, 11:19 AM
Bunch of people conjecturing on things they know next to nothing about, and Baja claiming that Josh McDaniels is a better coach than Mike (HOF upcoming) Shanahan.

Laughably useless thread

Josh has a better team in two draft & free agent cycles that Shanny could manage from 1999 to 2008

Polster60
06-27-2010, 11:19 AM
Bunch of people conjecturing on things they know next to nothing about, and Baja claiming that Josh McDaniels is a better coach than Mike (HOF upcoming) Shanahan.

Laughably useless thread


LOL agree wholeheartedly (sp??). Whether Shanahan and Elway had issues, or John wanting a larger role in the organization, this article hopefully is the start of something good. John was a winner that gave the broncos and his teammates everything he had everyday. Let Elway and Rod show the young players on this team how winning is done; they may not be able to play on game day, but they sure can show them what preparing to win is all about.

This article is full of win and awesome.

DBroncos4life
06-27-2010, 11:23 AM
josh has a better team in two draft & free agent cycles that shanny could manage from 1999 to 2008

lol

footstepsfrom#27
06-27-2010, 11:45 AM
Funny that so many here think that Shanny was a players coach and that MCD is a young ego driven power happy kid that is running off good players and as it turns out it was Shanahan that ran off the greatest Bronco player ever, John Elway. I am glad Josh is setting things right a Dove Valley.

It is going to be interesting to watch Snyder and Shanahan try to co exist, I give it 1 and change seasons before Shanny is out of football again.
Baja...just curious; why do you and some others in here hang onto this notion that the debate over McDaniel's competency has something to do with being a Shanny loyalist, as if the two are interrelated? A lot of posters in here were/are highly critical of the moves Shanny made over the last decade AND the ones they've seen from the new guy as well but you act like membership to the McD haters club was limited to Shanahan fans, which it wasn't. The only common denominator between Shannahan's performance and the McD situation is Bowlen, since he hired them both.

If we can agree that Shanahan stayed well past his window of opportunity here then we should rightfully blame Bowlen for that (because who else should we hold responsible?...duh), so I doubt you'd disagree that Bowlen's judgement is suspect for the extended length of time he stuck with Mike. If that's true, then one has to admit it's OK to question his judgment elsewhere as well, especially since the guy has basically opened the door and invited increased scrutiny with his quasi-Jerry Jones approach that he adopted when he brought McD here.

Personally I believe Woody Paige's account since it contains direct quotes. What I mean by that is that I believe Elway told him the things he stated in the article, but as to whether Elway's account is accurate or not is an entirely different question. Apparently he believes the rift had to do with the trophy quote, but who knows if that perception is correct or not? Nobody except Shannahan in all probability.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter, because the only thing that's important now is that Elway is going to be hanging out with Tebow. I'd like to see Tim in two years under the guidance of both McDaniels and Elway. What Tebow has that no other QB in the post-Elway here has had is that elite level of leadership that inspires teamates to play above their abilities. He and John share that quality, so the other questions about him aside, this is great news. I think Tebow is part of the reason Elway's back as well, not just that he wants to buddy up with McDaniels. Tebow's vocal leadership style is similar to John's and I think Elway seems Tebow as a way for him to continue to make an impact on the field even if he's not playing or coaching.

Cito Pelon
06-27-2010, 11:49 AM
I'm not quite sure why you are automatically assuming that keeping John out was a bad thing. Shanahan had total control of the organization. It's obvious that John wanted to eventually be in a GM capacity one day. Shanny had that all wrapped up himself. That's just how he operates. Whether it was a good idea for Shanny to keep the FO portion of the job duties all to himself is a seperate question from whether it's a good idea to start involving John in the FO. Keep in mind, the article is objectively INCORRECT as to John's involvmenet as a whole in the Broncos. He wasn't persona non grata....he showed up at Dove Valley from time to time....Shanny always spoke glowingly of him and ofcourse he brought the whole team to attend the HOF induction. Shanny simply didn't want him to get into Bowlen's ear re: a FO role (that would only get bigger and bigger). John wants to run a team. He's said that before many times. He actually ran the AFL team in Colorado.

Shanny probably didn't want him to get involved in the NFL because he thought that he had it already under wraps and also because he probably thought John was unqualified. Again.....whether it was a good idea to have Shanny run everything is one issue...its questionable whether that was a good idea looking back on it. It's a seperate question as to whether it should be John of all people, having a FO role in the organization. I absolutely agree that he's unqualified to have a FO role. That's what we're REALLy talking about here. Running an AFL team is not sufficient experience. He doesn't have the scouting experience, the cap experience, the day to day operations management experience to be doing that and if he got a foot in the door, it would only grow because of Bowlen. We need trained and experienced football people in the FO. Again, this does not mean I agree that only Shanny should have been running the show, but there should have been an independent, experienced NFL GM....not John Elway in the shadows whispering in Bowlen's ear. Bowlen's quite susceptible to that...especially these days. We have enough shadowy figures whispering into his ears already (Ellis), we didn't need and still don't need people he has strong personal feelings for affecting his purely football decisions. The ideal scenario would have been a purely independent and qualified GM and staff (which we still don't have, BTW). And as between the two other scenarios, Shanny having full control, or Elway getting a foot in the door and then having a "presence" over football issues, I'd say what we ended up having was the lesser of two evils.

I'm not quite sure why you are boasting about this article...I don't see how it helps you. I'm glad he didn't get his foot in the door in football operations. He's the best QB in the history of the NFL. He wasn't, however, qualified to just step into the FO (which is what he wanted) and have a "presence". I'm kinda ticked that he vaguely trashed Mike like that. Mike never said a bad word about him in public. Ever. Mike did alot for him and helped him win two titles. Just because he wanted to keep a tight rein over everything doesn't mean you take a shot at him after he's gone. Just let it be.

Jeez, that's a legal brief. You obscure points with bombast. You could have reduced that to five sentences. What, you practice your legal briefs here on the Mane?

In fact, I can reduce that entire post to one sentence - this one:

I absolutely agree that he's unqualified to have a FO role. That's what we're REALLy talking about here

"He" being John Elway. And nobody at all in this thread has mentioned John Elway having "an FO role". We all admire your linguistic and argumentative skills, but can you please exercise them elsewhere? Thanks in advance for your anticipated cooperation. ;)

Homer Simpson
06-27-2010, 11:50 AM
Well I'm not the one that chose a flame thrower for my avatar.

It's his name. Hank Scorpio.

Cito Pelon
06-27-2010, 11:56 AM
I seem to remember Shanny wanting John out so that he could prove he could win without him. That is, he could prove to the football world that he was the important piece of the puzzle, not the great John Elway. Shanny would have readily took him back as that was the easiest route for a three-pete, but he pushed Elway away with his, my system is king moto. Not unlike McD in some ways, the system is more important than the individual members.

Man, that's pure excalation.

SouthStndJunkie
06-27-2010, 12:00 PM
Great read! I have been waiting for this article for years. I have been saying there was a problem between Shanahan and Elway for years and got roasted here for that take. It was obvious to me there was a problem because Elway was never around and you never saw Shanny and John doing events together it was unnatural. So to all you peeps that said I was crazy screw you. ;D


I think it was pretty common knowledge that Shanny and Elway had their differences after Elway retired....it was no secret, that is for sure.

broncswin
06-27-2010, 12:01 PM
BTW The first year coach Josh McD should by rights have more insecurity about having a more ready to handle a FO job Elway around than the tenured supper bowl winning Shanahan ever did, yet it was Shanny that was paranoid not Josh. Josh already has a better temperament to run our Broncos than Shanny ever did. Shanny did not know his limitations. Josh acknowledges his mistakes and endeavors to learn from them.

Shanny was a great battle planner but a lousy over all general

This

steeledude
06-27-2010, 12:05 PM
Great read! I have been waiting for this article for years. I have been saying there was a problem between Shanahan and Elway for years and got roasted here for that take. It was obvious to me there was a problem because Elway was never around and you never saw Shanny and John doing events together it was unnatural. So to all you peeps that said I was crazy screw you. ;D

So many interesting points in this article.












The little man up stairs is gone, thank you Pat.



So what say you McDaniels bashers now?


That Elway is supporting the successor of the man he seems to have bad blood with. When my ex boss whom I hated was fired, I supported his sh*tty follow up almost blindly for awhile. The way it goes.

Hopefully Elway will support our next coach too.

steeledude
06-27-2010, 12:08 PM
Every Bronco fan should now be glad Shanahan and his ego have been run out of town by the " gutless drunk".

Thank you Mr.Bowlen and if you are a gutless drunk it is not for firing Mike Shanahan but for waiting way too long to do it.

Well that quote is PURE speculation by one of our worst sports writers, which is saying something considering we have the likes of Klit and Kiz around here.

Of course it rings true--there is no understanding why the two had a falling out, and Shanahan had a huge ego. He was a fantastic coach, but the haters of McD like me don't argue he should have stayed. Just that he should have been replaced by a competent coach, not a complete jackass who is exactly the same as Shanny.

footstepsfrom#27
06-27-2010, 12:09 PM
You are the one running with the Elway for GM idea I don't think there was ever a chance in hell of Bowlen giving him that job. In fact Bowlen offering John 20 % of the Broncos pretty much proves there was never any thought of him becoming GM. He would be an un-fireable GM and Bowlen would never put himself in that position.

Your whole post is full of ridiculous assumptions.

This is a simple case of Shanny's ego carving out his kingdom
Assumptions? You made one large one in this take. Why would a minority owner be unfireable as GM? I see no reason he would be. In any case the only reason John was offered a stake in the team at all is because Bowlen's financial position at the time and the cap restrictions made it dificult and/or impossible to pay him the considerations of his contract. Bowlen was highly leveraged financially which made the stock option attractive to him. I don't think it says anything at all about how he saw him as GM material. As for whether Bowlen would put himself in that position...see the horrible Kaiser deal he signed on for for an example of what Pat would do in terms of mortgaging the future for the present. Or can you name another NFL owner who signed a right of first refusal agreement with the guy he bought the team from? As far as we know, Pat's the only guy in the league with that Albatross around his neck...yeah Bowlen WOULD put himself in that postion and his track record proves he would.

steeledude
06-27-2010, 12:13 PM
Its hard to believe that Woody is off base when Elway is quoted in it saying things happened between he and Shanny. Woody can only report and more specifically quote someone if they are ok being on the record.

Or, as any hack writer does, he can fill in the blank with his imagination and pretend he has inside knowledge even though Elway gave him NONE.

CEH
06-27-2010, 12:14 PM
Joe Ellis is running the Denver Broncos right now. He is the man Bowlen listens to. Ellis wanted to fire Shanny after the '07 season but it took Bowlen another season to finally listen to Ellis

Ellis was the guy who hired Josh, interviewed him multiple times

Notice who's playing golf, Elway, Ellis, McD and an assitant.

Notice who said was was great for Josh and John to talk.

HEAV
06-27-2010, 12:15 PM
Elway will always be one of my biggest heroes! This fanchise needs former greats like Elway & Smith around and active with the current players!

Shanny did what he did...it's over and we all have to let it go. Things changed for the better in my eyes.

Just enjoy the Team we have now.

Borks147
06-27-2010, 12:31 PM
I never quite realized how well your avatar suited you.



As for Pat, I guess we agree to disagree. I don't think he's what he once was. He's now got Joe Ellis whispering in his ear and he just doesn't seem to be on top of things...at least not totally. His performance last summer was less than inspiring and whether its age or something else, I'm not sure, but he's not quite the same. I just don't have the confidence that he could keep Elway's role properly confined. I just don't.

Archer81
06-27-2010, 12:47 PM
Relationships change. No one outside of the Broncos players and coaches themselves knows exactly what happened. From the sounds of it, John did not feel welcome at Dove Valley after his retirement. Who knows why.

Its awesome he's going to be involved in some way with the Broncos.

:Broncos:

Cito Pelon
06-27-2010, 12:51 PM
Assumptions? You made one large one in this take. Why would a minority owner be unfireable as GM? I see no reason he would be. In any case the only reason John was offered a stake in the team at all is because Bowlen's financial position at the time and the cap restrictions made it dificult and/or impossible to pay him the considerations of his contract. Bowlen was highly leveraged financially which made the stock option attractive to him. I don't think it says anything at all about how he saw him as GM material. As for whether Bowlen would put himself in that position...see the horrible Kaiser deal he signed on for for an example of what Pat would do in terms of mortgaging the future for the present. Or can you name another NFL owner who signed a right of first refusal agreement with the guy he bought the team from? As far as we know, Pat's the only guy in the league with that Albatross around his neck...yeah Bowlen WOULD put himself in that postion and his track record proves he would.

Good god, 'steps, Bowlen won the lawsuit Kaiser brought. Kaiser LOST that lawsuit. You're not impressing any of us that know the Broncos.

I guess you're trying to build an anti-Bowlen army that's as stupid as yourself. I don't want to insult you, but please . . . .

You keep bringiing up stupid, ridiculous things that are meant to smear the team. If I thought you were making some good points, I'd agree with you sometimes.

baja
06-27-2010, 01:17 PM
Bunch of people conjecturing on things they know next to nothing about, and Baja claiming that Josh McDaniels is a better coach than Mike (HOF upcoming) Shanahan.

Laughably useless thread

I did not say better coach. Josh is better all around leader for the Broncos.

Shanahan the game day offensive coach may be the best the game has ever seen but Shanahan the GM is one of the worst. Look at his draft and free agent record.

Offense game planning > Shanahan

Defensive understanding and over view > Josh

Free agency acquisitions > Josh

Draft strategy and team building > Josh

understanding the value of team chemistry > Josh

Team first concept > josh

Best player plays > Josh

Learns from mistakes > Josh

Admitting mistakes > Josh

Over all best for the team > Josh

footstepsfrom#27
06-27-2010, 01:35 PM
Good god, 'steps, Bowlen won the lawsuit Kaiser brought. Kaiser LOST that lawsuit. You're not impressing any of us that know the Broncos.

I guess you're trying to build an anti-Bowlen army that's as stupid as yourself. I don't want to insult you, but please . . . .

You keep bringiing up stupid, ridiculous things that are meant to smear the team. If I thought you were making some good points, I'd agree with you sometimes.
First of all, Bowlen only won the suit based on a highly dubious technicality of legal mumbo jumbo and of MUCH more importance, the right of first refusal that Kaiser holds was NOT revoked by the judge, only Kaiser's right to profit from the operations Bowlen has currently. Even if Bowlen had won a total victory and had it ruled invalid, it still speaks to his own tendency to make risky and leveraged deals to get what he wants...him winning the suit doesn't change that. Read the legal decision submitted by the court...surf around and you'll find it online or maybe I linked to it in one of the prior threads...but do that before you call me stupid.

Second, I could give a damn about any of this, much less the need to smear the team. I'm simply pointing out some facts. If you don't like the facts, fine...not my problem...but at least know what those facts actually are before you blab away.

baja
06-27-2010, 01:41 PM
Baja...just curious; why do you and some others in here hang onto this notion that the debate over McDaniel's competency has something to do with being a Shanny loyalist, as if the two are interrelated?

I don't think that. I do think there a high percentage of posters that are against Josh because he replaced Shanny. What I do think is McD has not been given much of a grace period because of the high profile players he got rid of. Basically the jury is still out on McD, some like what he has done and others honestly believe he is doing deep damage to the team

A lot of posters in here were/are highly critical of the moves Shanny made over the last decade AND the ones they've seen from the new guy as well but you act like membership to the McD haters club was limited to Shanahan fans, which it wasn't. The only common denominator between Shannahan's performance and the McD situation is Bowlen, since he hired them both.

If we can agree that Shanahan stayed well past his window of opportunity here then we should rightfully blame Bowlen for that (because who else should we hold responsible?...duh), so I doubt you'd disagree that Bowlen's judgement is suspect for the extended length of time he stuck with Mike. If that's true, then one has to admit it's OK to question his judgment elsewhere as well,

Bowlen himself said he had been thinking about this move for quite some time. I don't think it was as much a judgement issue as it was a loyalty issue. I think firing Shanny was probably one of the hardest things Bowlen ever had to do.


especially since the guy has basically opened the door and invited increased scrutiny with his quasi-Jerry Jones approach that he adopted when he brought McD here.

Not following you here

Personally I believe Woody Paige's account since it contains direct quotes. What I mean by that is that I believe Elway told him the things he stated in the article, but as to whether Elway's account is accurate or not is an entirely different question. Apparently he believes the rift had to do with the trophy quote, but who knows if that perception is correct or not? Nobody except Shannahan in all probability.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter, because the only thing that's important now is that Elway is going to be hanging out with Tebow. I'd like to see Tim in two years under the guidance of both McDaniels and Elway. What Tebow has that no other QB in the post-Elway here has had is that elite level of leadership that inspires teamates to play above their abilities. He and John share that quality, so the other questions about him aside, this is great news. I think Tebow is part of the reason Elway's back as well, not just that he wants to buddy up with McDaniels. Tebow's vocal leadership style is similar to John's and I think Elway seems Tebow as a way for him to continue to make an impact on the field even if he's not playing or coaching.

I would prefer Elway be more of a sponsor/ confidant to Tebow rather than yet another mechanics coach.

A guy to help deal with the pressures of playing in the NFL and being a QB in Denver

Cito Pelon
06-27-2010, 02:03 PM
First of all, Bowlen only won the suit based on a highly dubious technicality of legal mumbo jumbo and of MUCH more importance, the right of first refusal that Kaiser holds was NOT revoked by the judge, only Kaiser's right to profit from the operations Bowlen has currently. Even if Bowlen had won a total victory and had it ruled invalid, it still speaks to his own tendency to make risky and leveraged deals to get what he wants...him winning the suit doesn't change that. Read the legal decision submitted by the court...surf around and you'll find it online or maybe I linked to it in one of the prior threads...but do that before you call me stupid.

Second, I could give a damn about any of this, much less the need to smear the team. I'm simply pointing out some facts. If you don't like the facts, fine...not my problem...but at least know what those facts actually are before you blab away.

Just relax, 'steps. You get yourself all worked up into negative ways. I guess that's how some of you like to live your lives. Seems pointless to me.

baja
06-27-2010, 02:09 PM
First of all, Bowlen only won the suit based on a highly dubious technicality of legal mumbo jumbo and of MUCH more importance, the right of first refusal that Kaiser holds was NOT revoked by the judge, only Kaiser's right to profit from the operations Bowlen has currently. Even if Bowlen had won a total victory and had it ruled invalid, it still speaks to his own tendency to make risky and leveraged deals to get what he wants...him winning the suit doesn't change that. Read the legal decision submitted by the court...surf around and you'll find it online or maybe I linked to it in one of the prior threads...but do that before you call me stupid.

Second, I could give a damn about any of this, much less the need to smear the team. I'm simply pointing out some facts. If you don't like the facts, fine...not my problem...but at least know what those facts actually are before you blab away.

You do know that the owners chose the according to you incompetent Bowlen to negotiate their all important TV contracts don't you?

footstepsfrom#27
06-27-2010, 02:13 PM
Just relax, 'steps. You get yourself all worked up into negative ways. I guess that's how some of you like to live your lives. Seems pointless to me.
Speculating on my current emotional state rather than responding to the content of the post seems pointless to me.

footstepsfrom#27
06-27-2010, 02:23 PM
You do know that the owners chose the according to you incompetent Bowlen to negotiate their all important TV contracts don't you?
I've never said Bowlen was incompetent but as for the TV thing I doubt Pat himself is doing the numbers...an army of CPA's and finance wizards are handling it and he's directing a committe...fine, but that has nothing to do with the facts surrounding his purchase of the team nor how the conditions of that purchase have impacted his current operations and decisions. That issue's been rehashed in here at length but almost entirely only from the fan-level viewpoint (contracts, etc) as opposed to what we know from a legal and business perspective based on evidence from the court trial, the only available source of legal information on the team's corporate affairs. In any case, it fits in this discussion only because I made the point that Bowlen by virtue of being the guy who hired both these coaches is the only link between them. It strikes me as disingenuous to praise him for good decisions and ignore the bad ones.

baja
06-27-2010, 02:31 PM
I've never said Bowlen was incompetent but as for the TV thing I doubt Pat himself is doing the numbers...an army of CPA's and finance wizards are handling it and he's directing a committe...fine, but that has nothing to do with the facts surrounding his purchase of the team nor how the conditions of that purchase have impacted his current operations and decisions. That issue's been rehashed in here at length but almost entirely only from the fan-level viewpoint (contracts, etc) as opposed to what we know from a legal and business perspective based on evidence from the court trial, the only available source of legal information on the team's corporate affairs. In any case, it fits in this discussion only because I made the point that Bowlen by virtue of being the guy who hired both these coaches is the only link between them. It strikes me as disingenuous to praise him for good decisions and ignore the bad ones.

Hiring Shanny = good decision

Firing Shanny = good decision (a little late but Bowlen was guilty loyalty no more)

Hiring Josh McDaniels = good decision IMO but it is fair to say the jury is still out on this.

I don't think you have made your point.

footstepsfrom#27
06-27-2010, 02:47 PM
Hiring Shanny = good decision

Firing Shanny = good decision (a little late but Bowlen was guilty loyalty no more)

Hiring Josh McDaniels = good decision IMO but it is fair to say the jury is still out on this.

I don't think you have made your point.
My point was simply to ask why you usually link being a Shanny supporter with being a McD hater. The two have little or nothing in common. I try to evaluate everything McD is doing on its own merits.

baja
06-27-2010, 02:52 PM
My point was simply to ask why you usually link being a Shanny supporter with being a McD hater. The two have little or nothing in common. I try to evaluate everything McD is doing on its own merits.

Actually that was about 5 of your "points" ago and I answered it.

As much as I like you Footsteps it is not fun going around the barn with you

footstepsfrom#27
06-27-2010, 03:03 PM
Actually that was about 5 of your "points" ago and I answered it.

As much as I like you Footsteps it is not fun going around the barn with you
Well you didn't answer any of them but I'd settle for just the main one. It's not just you, it's the mindset on the board as well. Maybe dancing around in circles is a euphemism for going around the barn...whatever. Just making an observation.

Hulamau
06-27-2010, 03:12 PM
Baja...just curious; why do you and some others in here hang onto this notion that the debate over McDaniel's competency has something to do with being a Shanny loyalist, as if the two are interrelated? A lot of posters in here were/are highly critical of the moves Shanny made over the last decade AND the ones they've seen from the new guy as well but you act like membership to the McD haters club was limited to Shanahan fans, which it wasn't. The only common denominator between Shannahan's performance and the McD situation is Bowlen, since he hired them both.

If we can agree that Shanahan stayed well past his window of opportunity here then we should rightfully blame Bowlen for that (because who else should we hold responsible?...duh), so I doubt you'd disagree that Bowlen's judgement is suspect for the extended length of time he stuck with Mike. If that's true, then one has to admit it's OK to question his judgment elsewhere as well, especially since the guy has basically opened the door and invited increased scrutiny with his quasi-Jerry Jones approach that he adopted when he brought McD here.

Personally I believe Woody Paige's account since it contains direct quotes. What I mean by that is that I believe Elway told him the things he stated in the article, but as to whether Elway's account is accurate or not is an entirely different question. Apparently he believes the rift had to do with the trophy quote, but who knows if that perception is correct or not? Nobody except Shannahan in all probability.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter, because the only thing that's important now is that Elway is going to be hanging out with Tebow. I'd like to see Tim in two years under the guidance of both McDaniels and Elway. What Tebow has that no other QB in the post-Elway here has had is that elite level of leadership that inspires teamates to play above their abilities. He and John share that quality, so the other questions about him aside, this is great news. I think Tebow is part of the reason Elway's back as well, not just that he wants to buddy up with McDaniels. Tebow's vocal leadership style is similar to John's and I think Elway seems Tebow as a way for him to continue to make an impact on the field even if he's not playing or coaching.

Good post and I largely agree. Certainly anyone can have questions with some moves with either Shanny and Josh. The bigger picture has alwasybeen seeing the talent and potential of a young guy like Josh who has all the makings of a rare coaching talent in this league that could win conssitently for many years. If given the chance to grow into the job a bit and revamp this team.

He WILL make mistakes, just as he seems to learn quickly as well. I'd much rather give him a year or two exztra over say a seasoned veteran coach who has to winin year two in order to reap the likely long term benefits of a more stable team dynasty again where we are truly competitive year in and year out for the whiole enchilada.

Josh is on track to pull that off. Shanny had his chance and finally struck gold in the late 90s. Since then he has struggled to stay just above mediocre most of his last decade with the Broncos. But Shanny deserved a nioce long chance to repeat afte back to back SBs

Im glad Bowlen isn't a hot head win now or else owner. . That way lies only chaos. We can have this cionversation again in 4 years after both Shanny and Josh have had ample opportunity to put their stamps on the Broncos and Skins.

Should be interesting but my money is on Josh ... not only head to head with Shanny but also with a much better owner behind him.

Archer81
06-27-2010, 03:13 PM
My point was simply to ask why you usually link being a Shanny supporter with being a McD hater. The two have little or nothing in common. I try to evaluate everything McD is doing on its own merits.


I look at it like this. I loved what Shanahan did as Broncos HC. He built the teams that got us the Lombardis. He was simply here too long. That does not mean I hate what Shanahan did for 14 or whatever years.

I support the Broncos. The HC at the moment is McDaniels. If he does well here and eventually moves on, I wont hate him either. No point. But the minute he, like Shanahan has nothing to do with the Broncos anymore, I cease to care about what they are doing. Its that way for players and coaches for me.

Thats my take in a nutshell.

:Broncos:

Hamrob
06-27-2010, 03:19 PM
Elway was and still is the face of the Rocky Mountains. After winning back to back Superbowls he was at the height of his popularity.

Shanahan was a young ambitious coach trying to make a name for himself. I'm sure at the time, he was reluctant to get Elway too involved for fear of the fact...he'd be in Elway's shadow. I'm not sure that McD wouldn't feel and react the same.

Who cares at this point...it's nice to see the best football player ever back in the saddle where he should be!

Broncoman13
06-27-2010, 06:29 PM
Man, that's pure excalation.

Whatever that is supposed to mean???

wolf754life
06-27-2010, 06:30 PM
the broncos are rebuilding and i love pat bowlen!

baja
06-27-2010, 06:58 PM
http://coloradosportsdesk.com/wp/wp-content/elway_paige.jpg

baja
06-27-2010, 06:59 PM
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/2008/magazine/specials/sportsman/2008/10/31/wahl.elway/john-elway.jpg

baja
06-27-2010, 07:00 PM
http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/9500/John-Elway--9725.jpg

baja
06-27-2010, 07:02 PM
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u80/Dorkforjesus/JohnElway.jpg

HAT
06-27-2010, 07:12 PM
My point was simply to ask why you usually link being a Shanny supporter with being a McD hater. The two have little or nothing in common. I try to evaluate everything McD is doing on its own merits.

People get wrongly lumped into that category because of the vocal minority that feels exactly that way.....

Plenty of people hated and still hate McD precisely b/c he wasn't Shanny.

No need to name names b/c we all know the 5-10 people who shouted the loudest for the last 18 months.

DBroncos4life
06-27-2010, 07:30 PM
I did not say better coach. Josh is better all around leader for the Broncos.

Shanahan the game day offensive coach may be the best the game has ever seen but Shanahan the GM is one of the worst. Look at his draft and free agent record.

Offense game planning > Shanahan

Defensive understanding and over view > Josh

Free agency acquisitions > Josh

Draft strategy and team building > Josh

understanding the value of team chemistry > Josh

Team first concept > josh

Best player plays > Josh

Learns from mistakes > Josh

Admitting mistakes > Josh

Over all best for the team > Josh

You would think Josh would have lead us to a Super Bowl victory already by the way you talk him up.

baja
06-27-2010, 07:40 PM
You would think Josh would have lead us to a Super Bowl victory already by the way you talk him up.

The sun never sets on the British Empire, oh wait that was a while ago...

montrose
06-27-2010, 08:00 PM
Baja correctly me if I'm wrong, but what I think Baja is saying regarding McD or Shanahan is not that in not in terms of their career resume but right now - McD is a better fit for the Broncos than Shanny. No one will take away those two championships and the way he ran this team early in his tenure but following those wins we were a largely mediocre team that appeared to be very stale. That isn't to say he wasn't a great coach or still couldn't be, but he's not the best fit here anymore. LaDanian Tomlinson's resume is way more impressive than Ryan Matthews but Matthews will be a far better player for the Chargers now than LT. In their short time on the job, McD and Xanders cleaned house of the malcontents for great value, built a deeper and more talented 53-man roster and assembled a superior coaching staff of teachers.

Baja - is this what you're trying to say?

footstepsfrom#27
06-27-2010, 08:06 PM
People get wrongly lumped into that category because of the vocal minority that feels exactly that way.....

Plenty of people hated and still hate McD precisely b/c he wasn't Shanny.

No need to name names b/c we all know the 5-10 people who shouted the loudest for the last 18 months.
Fair enough...but it's worth noting; all chickens are birds, but not all birds are chickens.

Clear enough eh?

SoCalBronco
06-27-2010, 08:07 PM
. In their short time on the job, McD and Xanders cleaned house of the malcontents for great value, built a deeper and more talented 53-man roster and assembled a superior coaching staff of teachers.



http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_WCrIotSdkFA/SLgnWy03dlI/AAAAAAAAAZ4/WsXOCvm3MMw/s320/virgil+million+dollar+man.jpg

montrose
06-27-2010, 08:13 PM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_WCrIotSdkFA/SLgnWy03dlI/AAAAAAAAAZ4/WsXOCvm3MMw/s320/virgil+million+dollar+man.jpg

http://img.skysports.com/08/06/218x298/WWE-RAW-Vince-McMahon_915197.jpg

DBroncos4life
06-27-2010, 08:30 PM
The sun never sets on the British Empire, oh wait that was a while ago...

That's pretty relevant.

Hulamau
06-27-2010, 08:35 PM
You would think Josh would have lead us to a Super Bowl victory already by the way you talk him up.

Give him a couple more years ... he'll get it done or at least knocking on the door.

baja
06-27-2010, 08:51 PM
Baja correctly me if I'm wrong, but what I think Baja is saying regarding McD or Shanahan is not that in not in terms of their career resume but right now - McD is a better fit for the Broncos than Shanny. No one will take away those two championships and the way he ran this team early in his tenure but following those wins we were a largely mediocre team that appeared to be very stale. That isn't to say he wasn't a great coach or still couldn't be, but he's not the best fit here anymore. LaDanian Tomlinson's resume is way more impressive than Ryan Matthews but Matthews will be a far better player for the Chargers now than LT. In their short time on the job, McD and Xanders cleaned house of the malcontents for great value, built a deeper and more talented 53-man roster and assembled a superior coaching staff of teachers.

Baja - is this what you're trying to say?

LOL well I knew I was posting hurriedly but I did not know I was not being clear about what I was trying to say Montrose but you are mostly right I would only add that it is my opinion that when it is all said and done the Broncos will be known as a team fortunate enough to have had two great coaches but Josh McDaniels will be the better of the two by far. The reason I believe that is because I think Josh's plan about a team first way of building a team is the right way especially in these modern times and he has shown he will put his career on the line for this belief of his. I am also vrey impressed at how much he has grown in his jop in one short year. I think we have a HOF coach in the making. Bottom line is we can't know these things for sure but right or wrong I am enjoying the Broncos more than most right now.

baja
06-27-2010, 09:02 PM
That's pretty relevant.

That's the point son. Shanny winning two SBs ten years ago is not all that relevant either especially after he went ten years steeped in mediocrity while proclaiming we were SB contenders every year only to have some real team (Ravens Colts) blow us out of the water, than he would fire a DC and claim next year was the year. Dude was in love with his mastermind moniker. He did not learn from his mistakes because he did not believe he made any.

baja
06-27-2010, 09:08 PM
Fair enough...but it's worth noting; all chickens are birds, but not all birds are chickens.

Clear enough eh?

Don't forget they all shiit through feathers.

baja
06-27-2010, 09:09 PM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_WCrIotSdkFA/SLgnWy03dlI/AAAAAAAAAZ4/WsXOCvm3MMw/s320/virgil+million+dollar+man.jpg

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2003/Free-Speech-Repression27apr03.GIF

Hulamau
06-27-2010, 09:28 PM
Baja correctly me if I'm wrong, but what I think Baja is saying regarding McD or Shanahan is not that in not in terms of their career resume but right now - McD is a better fit for the Broncos than Shanny. No one will take away those two championships and the way he ran this team early in his tenure but following those wins we were a largely mediocre team that appeared to be very stale. That isn't to say he wasn't a great coach or still couldn't be, but he's not the best fit here anymore. LaDanian Tomlinson's resume is way more impressive than Ryan Matthews but Matthews will be a far better player for the Chargers now than LT. In their short time on the job, McD and Xanders cleaned house of the malcontents for great value, built a deeper and more talented 53-man roster and assembled a superior coaching staff of teachers.

Baja - is this what you're trying to say?

Speaking for myself... and I suspect Baja as well ... that hit the nail pretty much on the head Montrose. ^5

DBroncos4life
06-27-2010, 09:47 PM
Give him a couple more years ... he'll get it done or at least knocking on the door.

Nothing he has done is better then what Mike has did period. Even if he wins one in a couple of years it will never be better then what Mike did. It at the very best it will be equal. History will repeat itself though over time Kid McD will get played out just like Mike did.

baja
06-27-2010, 09:49 PM
Nothing he has done is better then what Mike has did period. Even if he wins one in a couple of years it will never be better then what Mike did. It at the very best it will be equal. History will repeat itself though over time Kid McD will get played out just like Mike did.

And we are all gonna die so what's the use... sigh

SoCalBronco
06-27-2010, 10:15 PM
Give him a couple more years ... he'll get it done or at least knocking on the door.

I'm willing to give him some more time. It's only been one year. I realize that with drastic changes in offensive/defensive systems and also personnel, there is going to be transition issues and as such, some reasonable period of adjustment is warranted. I sharply disagree with some things he's done, but I've also been quite impressed by other things. Unless the 2010 season is a complete disaster (for reasons other than multiple injuries to key personnel), I would say Josh is definitely entitled to have a third year. A fourth year is an open question, however. I would say that he would need to at least qualify for the postseason in 2010 or 2011 to get a 4th shot.

HAT
06-27-2010, 10:17 PM
History will repeat itself though over time Kid McD will get played out just like Mike did.

Sweet....Like I said over and over again in wolfies original "time for Shanahan to go thread" 10 years is about the max for any one coach to remain effective with any one team.

Thanks in advance for the 20-teens Josh. Take 2020 off to enjoy your family & good luck with your next team in 2021. :thumbsup:

CEH
06-28-2010, 07:32 AM
That's the point son. Shanny winning two SBs ten years ago is not all that relevant either especially after he went ten years steeped in mediocrity while proclaiming we were SB contenders every year only to have some real team (Ravens Colts) blow us out of the water, than he would fire a DC and claim next year was the year. Dude was in love with his mastermind moniker. He did not learn from his mistakes because he did not believe he made any.

Mediocricy (8-8) , firing a DC after a year on the job.
Who are we talking about here Mike or Josh? ;D

At this point we have change. We don't know if it is change for change sake or change for the better. Hope springs external. We know Mike had to go, we know LT had to go but the jury is still out whether Josh will be here long term or Ryan Matthews is the answer in SD



This year it's Josh's team and Josh has a vision that we all can agree works for New England. We'll see if it works in the AFCW (KC and Denver ) . To assume it will goes against current results from other BB decendents. I do like the power running game I sure hopes he can get that to work here

I hope for the best but the pesstimist in me says "results are all that matters in the NFL" and with Josh so far for every ying (6-0 start, top defense ) there is a yang (2-8 finish, fires DC). However I can't find a ying to his draft day trade for Zo Smith

bronco militia
06-28-2010, 07:54 AM
it sounds like John has a raging Tebowner

baja
06-28-2010, 07:56 AM
it sounds like John has a raging Tebowner

LOL that's funny

Who did you steal that from.;D

bronco militia
06-28-2010, 07:58 AM
LOL that's funny

Who did you steal that from.;D

http://www.tebowner.com/images/tebowboner1.gif

http://www.tebowner.com/index.php

Ha!

baja
06-28-2010, 08:00 AM
Mediocricy (8-8) , firing a DC after a year on the job.
Who are we talking about here Mike or Josh? ;D

At this point we have change. We don't know if it is change for change sake or change for the better. Hope springs external. We know Mike had to go, we know LT had to go but the jury is still out whether Josh will be here long term or Ryan Matthews is the answer in SD

This year it's Josh's team and Josh has a vision that we all can agree works for New England. We'll see if it works in the AFCW (KC and Denver ) . To assume it will goes against current results from other BB decendents

I hope for the best but the pesstimist in me says "results are all that matters in the NFL"

Although I can't argue with this take CEH (?) I can say this vision holds no fun.

I'll see roses now and if i have to admit it was planted in horse shiit later so be it, I still had months of giddy anticipation.

But I believe it's not just blind homerism on my part. I will predict that hiring Josh McDaniels will be considered the best move this team has made since we lucked into drafting TD in the 6th round.

BTW does this make me a frontrunner TJ?

Durango
06-28-2010, 08:16 AM
I have repeatedly heard from other people around me at Mile Hi and Invesco that Shanny was 'offended' when John wouldn't return for one more year after the back-to-back Super Bowls and that the relationship began to seriously strain after that. Don't know if that's the basis for the issues between John and Mike, but no-one had mentioned it here, so I thought I would.

MaloCS
06-28-2010, 08:30 AM
My take is a little simpler
There was a disagreement after Elway decided to retire
Snanny and his ego wanted to go for 3 in a row. Something that has never been done before. Mike's main purpose in life is to get that 3rd SB win so he can be in elite company. The reason why he was always reloading instead of rebuilding. He wanted #3 and Elway was his best way to get there. Plain and simple

I tend to agree with this post. I believe that Elway foiled the plans to make a 3rd run at the super bowl by retiring and that didn't sit well with Shanny. For all intents and purposes, the Broncos were returning the same team that won the previous two super bowls so the expectations were realistic for a third.

For someone with tunnel vision, which people tend to get when they focus so hard on one goal for so long, it's easy to imagine how Shanny could blame Elway for the demise of the Broncos. The season following Elway's retirement was a disaster with the quarterback situation and the injury to TD. The Broncos haven't been the same since.

I think Elway's retirement really screwed up Shanny's plans which he never got over.

Irish Stout
06-28-2010, 08:53 AM
Woody has consistently been in McDaniels corner, so he has consistently been Baja's favorite writer.

Until Tebow has won a few games, don't compare him to Elway. until McDaniels has one a few rings, don't compare him with Shanahan.

Sorry, but I had to pull this up, even if it was already addressed once before.

Woody has not been in McD's corner until recently and never by the term consistently. Woody has been one of McD's biggest detractors at the post and I would argue that he was even a proponent of discord in Broncosland because of this new, young, brash, and most likely clueless coach.

To argue otherwise is wrong.

That being said, I think Woody Paige is a useless drunk.

CEH
06-28-2010, 08:54 AM
Although I can't argue with this take CEH (?) I can say this vision holds no fun.

I'll see roses now and if i have to admit it was planted in horse shiit later so be it, I still had months of giddy anticipation.

But I believe it's not just blind homerism on my part. I will predict that hiring Josh McDaniels will be considered the best move this team has made since we lucked into drafting TD in the 6th round.

BTW does this make me a frontrunner TJ?

I will say on one hand when you listen to Josh speak you can't help but get excited for the future on the other hand you hear stories locally about whether some key players really are buying into Josh.

I think if he can develop Tebow into the leader and QB he thinks he is it's easier to lead going forward when you have a stable relationship with your QB. Teams feed off someone and who is that someone for Denver? Dawkins if this were 2004 . I could easily see it being Tebow in the future. He's the best bet right now. This is why I'm excited to see John back in the fold.

baja
06-28-2010, 08:59 AM
I will say on one hand when you listen to Josh speak you can't help but get excited for the future <b>on the other hand you hear stories locally about whether some key players really are buying into Josh.</b>

I think if he can develop Tebow into the leader and QB he thinks he is it's easier to lead going forward when you have a stable relationship with your QB. Teams feed off someone and who is that someone for Denver? Dawkins if this were 2004 . I could easily see it being Tebow in the future. He's the best bet right now. This is why I'm excited to see John back in the fold.

Here we are down to discussing reloading equipment and you and others say these big stories are out there, why o why don't some of you guys share these stories you allude to.

Irish Stout
06-28-2010, 09:14 AM
Or, as any hack writer does, he can fill in the blank with his imagination and pretend he has inside knowledge even though Elway gave him NONE.

I don't like Woody. But, to guess at this? Man, falsifying quotes about one of the greatest NFL QBs ever and one of the current most intriguing football teams... Woody would be risking his paycheck from the Post and ESPN if he was making this stuff up... even portraiting McD, Elway, Ellis, and Bowlen in a false light could severly jeopardize his career.

HAT
06-28-2010, 09:17 AM
Here we are down to discussing reloading equipment and you and others say these big stories are out there, why o why don't some of you guys share these stories you allude to.

Sucks for us non-Denverites......No light rail.

dbfan21
06-28-2010, 10:00 AM
Going back to the OP, Shanny's resentment could have been bourne out of the media's claim that Shanny couldn't win a playoff game in the post-Elway era (until Jan 2006). That's still 5+ years of hearing that statement made and not being able to do anything about it. I could see Mike getting his panties in a bunch about something like that....especially if his ego is as big as everyone on this board claims.

baja
06-28-2010, 10:12 AM
Going back to the OP, Shanny's resentment could have been bourne out of the media's claim that Shanny couldn't win a playoff game in the post-Elway era (until Jan 2006). That's still 5+ years of hearing that statement made and not being able to do anything about it. I could see Mike getting his panties in a bunch about something like that....especially if his ego is as big as everyone on this board claims.

Well we don't hear about Shanny and John texting each other on their birthdays. Tebow thought to do that a week after he was drafted.

BTW Shanny really can't win the big one without John and TD

Kaylore
06-28-2010, 10:18 AM
If Shanahan didn't include Elway more, that was to his detriment. I agree that Elway wasn't qualified to be a GM, but I completely disagree that Elway wanted to be the GM and there is no evidence suggesting that is the case. I agree that Joe Ellis is more of a shot-caller now, and whether that is blessing or a curse remains to be seen. I don't think it's any different than before other than the head coach is accountable and prior to Shanahan being let go, there didn't seem to be much of that.

I don't know how strained Elway and Shanahan's relationship was, but if Elway said so himself, there must have been something. I think Shanahan did his best when the whole show was less about him and ceded power. The problem is he started ceding power to people based on his personal relationships and not their qualifications and that led directly to his demise.

I hope Shanahan and Elway both help their respective franchises to great success.

Cito Pelon
06-28-2010, 10:18 AM
Whatever that is supposed to mean???

Just a dumb joke. This was about the only interesting thread so I was fooling around a little to keep it going.

baja
06-28-2010, 10:25 AM
Not only could Shanny not win the big one he could not even get there in 10 seasons and worse yet he could manage only one playoff win in that ten years so don't tell me shanny could beat you with his players than turn around a beat you with your players as was a popular saying for so many years around here

bronco militia
06-28-2010, 10:29 AM
. I think Shanahan did his best when the whole show was less about him and ceded power. The problem is he started ceding power to people based on his personal relationships and not their qualifications and that led directly to his demise.

I hope Shanahan and Elway both help their respective franchises to great success.

IMO, that all started after DWILL.

baja
06-28-2010, 10:31 AM
IMO, that all started after DWILL.

Why do you say that?

dbfan21
06-28-2010, 10:33 AM
Just a question cause I am bored as heck...

Let's say the Broncos just won SB XXXIII and Elway retired, but we had just about everyone else coming back. Would you have wanted Brett Favre of THIS PAST year (2009) to come in and be our QB for another run at the SB?

Cito Pelon
06-28-2010, 10:36 AM
Not only could Shanny not win the big one he could not even get there in 10 seasons and worse yet he could manage only one playoff win in that ten years so don't tell me shanny could beat you with his players than turn around a beat you with your players as was a popular saying for so many years around here

What really chapped me from 1998 on was Shanny couldn't win the AFC West title but once. Even if the team was to lose in the playoffs, at least you have that AFC West title banner flying at Mile High. Denver hadn't been in that kind of title-less drought since 1976. It was horrible for me to endure, since I've always had my "location" as either 'In AFC West Championshipville' or 'Not in AFC West Championshipville'. I'm gonna be jumping on McD pretty soon if I can't change that location - and keep it as 'In' more often than 'Not in'.

bronco militia
06-28-2010, 10:41 AM
Why do you say that?

IMO he started to value his relationships with his players more. That should not be a bad thing, but maybe it's not a good thing for NFL head coaches.

Bottom line, he lost his edge.

Irish Stout
06-28-2010, 10:41 AM
I blame Invesco Funds! Its all their fault!