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View Full Version : Sky is falling!! Jarvis Moss promoted, Ayers demoted.


RunSilentRunDeep
06-11-2010, 12:13 PM
Everyone overreact!!!!!


http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2010/06/11/zane-beadles-jarvis-moss-promoted-seth-olsen-robert-ayers-demoted/

Centennial _ For the first day of mandatory minicamp Friday, the Broncos made some depth-chart changes.

Zane Beadles, the second-round pick out of Utah who had been working at right tackle, has shifted to first-string left guard. The move was made with the limited return of right tackle Ryan Harris from toe surgery. Harris is still only taking a few snaps and in his stead, veteran D’Anthony Batiste has been taking first-team, right tackle reps.

The changes have pushed second-year guard Seth Olsen, a fourth-round pick in 2009 out of Iowa, to second team.

On defense, projected starting outside linebackers of Elvis Dumervil and Robert Ayers aren’t with the first team. Dumervil isn’t practicing live at all in hopes of getting a multiyear contract. He is expected to sign his $3.168 million tender by Monday.

Ayers, the Broncos’ No. 18 overall draft pick in 2009 and a rookie disappointment, has been demoted. Jarvis Moss, the Broncos’ first-round pick in 2007 who has been a three-year disappointment, and undrafted rookie Kevin Alexander have been working with the first team.

Rohirrim
06-11-2010, 12:15 PM
Maybe they're trying to inspire Ayers? Hard to know the motivation behind what coaches do sometimes. Could mean a lot of things.

Br0nc0Buster
06-11-2010, 12:15 PM
that freaking sucks

Popps
06-11-2010, 12:15 PM
Just another step by McDaniels to alienate players he himself drafted while giving undue playing time to Shanahan-guys.

What a disgrace.

Man-Goblin
06-11-2010, 12:15 PM
They need to let him loose.

BlaK-Argentina
06-11-2010, 12:16 PM
I don't think Ayers was a disappointment but maybe that's just me.

baja
06-11-2010, 12:17 PM
That doesn't sound very good

tsiguy96
06-11-2010, 12:18 PM
personally i dont think this means a lot, zeadles stepped in front of olsen while having never played the spot. they are trying different people out to see how they perform in the #1 spot. i still think olsen has a good shot at starting here, and i think its all but guaranteed for ayers.

The Joker
06-11-2010, 12:18 PM
Moss standing in for Doom makes sense.

The other thing is bizarre though, hopefully Ayers hasn't been ****ting the bed.

Popps
06-11-2010, 12:19 PM
Remember, folks... this is the same coach who made Champ Bailey improve his conditioning before he was allowed to practice. (And like a pro, Champ did... and played well.)

So, don't be surprised if he goes after a player to motivate him. Ayers may need it, for all we know.

Pseudofool
06-11-2010, 12:21 PM
I hope we get clarification at some point. Could mean any number of things, so let's not get ahead of ourselves.

bronco militia
06-11-2010, 12:22 PM
I hope we get clarification at some point. Could mean any number of things, so let's not get ahead of ourselves.

bwhahaha Ha!

Mr.Meanie
06-11-2010, 12:23 PM
It's minicamp...

RunSilentRunDeep
06-11-2010, 12:25 PM
Elvis is obviously still in the building (http://blog.denverbroncos.com/denverbroncos/mini-camp-underway/). I just seized on the Post's poorly worded "promoted" headline. Moss is still second team.

I think they're just send a message to Ayers the job isn't going to be giving to him. Beadles, however, will be the starter IMHO.

Rabb
06-11-2010, 12:26 PM
It's minicamp...

I was just thinking that

it's a little early to worry about any of this

gyldenlove
06-11-2010, 12:30 PM
I am actually not that surprised, I think Moss is a better pure pass rusher than Ayers is and is certainly a more natural standin for Dumervil than Ayers.

broncosteven
06-11-2010, 12:42 PM
Ayers was terrible last year. I am glad they are not sticking with him just because he was a 1st round pick. I hope this motivates him and he plays up to his pick value in time.

OBF1
06-11-2010, 12:42 PM
It is Tebow working his magic on a fellow Gator.

end thread

tsiguy96
06-11-2010, 12:50 PM
I am actually not that surprised, I think Moss is a better pure pass rusher than Ayers is and is certainly a more natural standin for Dumervil than Ayers.

i soooo hope you are kidding about moss having pass rush ability...

Tom G
06-11-2010, 01:00 PM
Omygod - overreaction - omygod - overreaction - omygod - overreaction :flush:

JDB7821
06-11-2010, 01:01 PM
Coming from a Falcons fan and a draft fanatic, Ayers reminded me a lot of Jamaal Anderson coming out. I certainly hope for the Broncos' sake he doesn't go down that same path.

Irish Stout
06-11-2010, 01:03 PM
I am actually not that surprised, I think Moss is a better pure pass rusher than Ayers is and is certainly a more natural standin for Dumervil than Ayers.

He's also got the best throwing arm on our team now and has beaten Tiger Woods in golf numerous times while hooking up with more strippers. This man is a god.

OABB
06-11-2010, 01:12 PM
I need a mock Haiku right about now.

Mock, where you at?

dbfan21
06-11-2010, 01:13 PM
Remember, folks... this is the same coach who made Champ Bailey improve his conditioning before he was allowed to practice. (And like a pro, Champ did... and played well.)

So, don't be surprised if he goes after a player to motivate him. Ayers may need it, for all we know.

Exactly. This will light a fire under Ayers and will, ultimately, help him perform better in TC.

Drek
06-11-2010, 01:16 PM
Pretty standard Belichick/Parcells move. Demote the young expected/incumbent starter and make him "prove" that he's going to seize the job. Those guys typically make the demoted player battle with the second team for a week or so before getting the bump. Logic being that a young second year player like Ayers just handed the starting job over a veteran like Moss looks bad, so they make them "win" it in camp.

BroncoSojia
06-11-2010, 01:19 PM
Robert Ayers was in uniform but not practicing today; McDaniels said it was "a coaching decision."

http://twitter.com/MaxBroncos

Kid A
06-11-2010, 01:19 PM
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Man-Goblin
06-11-2010, 01:26 PM
I need a mock Haiku right about now.

Mock, where you at?

Your not listening.

Beavis threw out his trash and forgot to recycle.

Bellichick is the new Bowlen.

ITIOTS.

Los Broncos
06-11-2010, 01:30 PM
Ayers should be cut for this.

gyldenlove
06-11-2010, 01:34 PM
i soooo hope you are kidding about moss having pass rush ability...

One of the two players has 3.5 sacks, the other doesn't have a single one, they have over their careers played about the same number of snaps too, so it is a not result of one having a lot more time on field than the other. I am not saying he is good, I am just saying he is better than Ayers.

Br0nc0Buster
06-11-2010, 01:39 PM
One of the two players has 3.5 sacks, the other doesn't have a single one, they have over their careers played about the same number of snaps too, so it is a not result of one having a lot more time on field than the other. I am not saying he is good, I am just saying he is better than Ayers.

except he isnt
Ayers while not getting a sack did get pressure from time to time
Moss never did any of that
If I recall one of his "sacks" was when JeFatass ran out of bounds and Moss just happened to be the closest to him
I think another one was off a jailbreak blitz and one one picked him up

Moss would get raped by third stringers in the preseason

GoHAM
06-11-2010, 01:49 PM
except he isnt
Ayers while not getting a sack did get pressure from time to time
Moss never did any of that
If I recall one of his "sacks" was when JeFatass ran out of bounds and Moss just happened to be the closest to him
I think another one was off a jailbreak blitz and one one picked him up

Moss would get raped by third stringers in the preseason

One of them was on a Wildcat play against Miami, and it counted as a sack because Ronnie Brown pump faked while rolling out.

Lestat
06-11-2010, 01:51 PM
i don't see the issue. new DC, tweaks to the system and he didn't have the expected year that people were hoping for.
sounds like a motivation technique and if anything it's good that Moss is potentially starting to come around.

Rabb
06-11-2010, 01:53 PM
One of the two players has 3.5 sacks, the other doesn't have a single one, they have over their careers played about the same number of snaps too, so it is a not result of one having a lot more time on field than the other. I am not saying he is good, I am just saying he is better than Ayers.

come on man, the fact that Ayers has the same amount of playing time in his rookie season as Moss in his career should tell you something

if anything, it supports the argument that Ayers is better

friggin lemmings

elsid13
06-11-2010, 01:58 PM
They are in OTA and this mean nothing. Anyone trying to draw any conclusion on anything that happen during them should be writing for Bobo the AssClown internet ragsite

SoDak Bronco
06-11-2010, 01:58 PM
This is strange news...all reports out of dove valley were that he has been great in the weight room, working hard, and making strides. I think something is fishy, i doubt he is being beat out by moss..that's pathetic.

cmhargrove
06-11-2010, 02:28 PM
Any chance we're trying to increase Moss' value so we can trade him?

crush17
06-11-2010, 02:29 PM
Ayers was terrible last year. I am glad they are not sticking with him just because he was a 1st round pick. I hope this motivates him and he plays up to his pick value in time.

are you effing MENTAL??

HE WAS A ROOKIE!!!!!

CHRIST what is wrong with some of you people...

Kaylore
06-11-2010, 02:30 PM
It's minicamp...

This. It could be a package (like third down) that they pull Ayers for. It could be them wanting to see how these guys react on certain plays. So much of mini camp and camp is just the coaches experimenting.

Natedog24
06-11-2010, 02:35 PM
It is Tebow working his magic on a fellow Gator.

end thread

This!

Jarvis Moss confirmed for comeback player of the year in 2010. Praise Tebow! :tebow:

SouthStndJunkie
06-11-2010, 02:37 PM
I don't think Ayers was a disappointment but maybe that's just me.

His next sack will be his first.

montrose
06-11-2010, 02:38 PM
The title of this thread may be misleading, McD said Ayers was held out of practice as a "coaching decision". Now that can mean a lot of things, but it doesn't necessarily mean he was demoted. In fact, if he were demoted he'd probably still be at practice on the 2nd team.

TheReverend
06-11-2010, 02:54 PM
except he isnt
Ayers while not getting a sack did get pressure from time to time
Moss never did any of that
If I recall one of his "sacks" was when JeFatass ran out of bounds and Moss just happened to be the closest to him
I think another one was off a jailbreak blitz and one one picked him up

Moss would get raped by third stringers in the preseason

Bull****.

TheReverend
06-11-2010, 02:57 PM
His next sack will be his first.

I don't mind that so much.

What I DO mind:

He's a converted 4-3 strongside DE, with a fantastic skillset at the point of attack on running downs... yet he was only used primarily in nickle packages.

2011 is his make it or break it season, imo. Will be great if he can play more and better this year, but if he still looks poor in Dec 2011, he needs to go back to a 4-3 defense where he belongs.

broncosteven
06-11-2010, 03:10 PM
are you effing MENTAL??

HE WAS A ROOKIE!!!!!

CHRIST what is wrong with some of you people...

He was late on many plays in the pass rush, did not make the right decisions and stunk it up in run support.

Plus there was a post or thread her recently about him starting slow off the snap and being tentative.

Who cares what his excuse was, his play was bad. I am guessing this is motivational but hoping he improves and we get 1st round value out of him.

gyldenlove
06-11-2010, 03:35 PM
except he isnt
Ayers while not getting a sack did get pressure from time to time
Moss never did any of that
If I recall one of his "sacks" was when JeFatass ran out of bounds and Moss just happened to be the closest to him
I think another one was off a jailbreak blitz and one one picked him up

Moss would get raped by third stringers in the preseason

From time to time? Whenever Ayers was great at being the first person on the scene of a sack, but that doesn't really mean he did anything, he just had a better view of many sacks than most people, but he will need to be more than a bystander in year 2.

Jesterhole
06-11-2010, 03:40 PM
So the first three picks from last years draft are probably all busts. Good thing we got rid of Shanahan and that 2nd rated offense we had...

2KBack
06-11-2010, 03:43 PM
We've gone over all of this several times before. Defensive lineman often take a lot of time to develop in the pros, switching positions can compound that, on top of that both Moss and Ayers were extremely raw coming out anyway.

It isn't so hard to imagine that Moss is putting it together (he is a freakish athlete after all) finally. It also isn't hard to imagine that Ayers might need more time to develop (I believe Mayock said 3 years).

Despite these two plausible scenarios, the reality of the situation is probably that it is freakin mini-camp and guys are shuffled around constantly.

2KBack
06-11-2010, 03:48 PM
So the first three picks from last years draft are probably all busts. Good thing we got rid of Shanahan and that 2nd rated offense we had...

The more I find out about McDouche, the more I think he sucks. Giving your brother a NFL job because he once coached some kids in High School is pathetic. There is no way dude is a better choice that a professional coach with real NFL experience.

News Flash. McDouchebag wastes picks on projects. He also doesn't like talented probowlers on his roster.

'Lil Josh sure has done a great job of running off proven, accomplished people and replacing them with injured, faith-based yes men

June has been a fun month for reading your posts, keep up the good work.

tsiguy96
06-11-2010, 04:03 PM
We've gone over all of this several times before. Defensive lineman often take a lot of time to develop in the pros, switching positions can compound that, on top of that both Moss and Ayers were extremely raw coming out anyway.

It isn't so hard to imagine that Moss is putting it together (he is a freakish athlete after all) finally. It also isn't hard to imagine that Ayers might need more time to develop (I believe Mayock said 3 years).

Despite these two plausible scenarios, the reality of the situation is probably that it is freakin mini-camp and guys are shuffled around constantly.

yep, just as mcdaniels said, all the QBs worked with the #1s, that doesnt mean they are all starting. they are switching guys around to see what works and what doesnt.

crush17
06-11-2010, 04:06 PM
Welcome to my ingore list, jesterdouche. You'll find your best friend jhns there. Maybe you guys can jerk each other off and talk about your hatred for McDaniels and your love for Cutler together.

Br0nc0Buster
06-11-2010, 04:13 PM
From time to time? Whenever Ayers was great at being the first person on the scene of a sack, but that doesn't really mean he did anything, he just had a better view of many sacks than most people, but he will need to be more than a bystander in year 2.

from time to time is still light years ahead of Moss, at least Ayers would occasionally force the qb to move around
Moss got either pancaked or stonewalled on every play but because the play would sometimes go in the direction he got pushed into he would get credited with a sack or a tackle

Besides there was an article that said Ayers job for the most part was to contain and not let the qb get away as opposed to just flying off the corner for the sack on every play

I specifically remember a quote from Martindale that said Doom wouldnt have got some of the sacks he got if Ayers wasnt on the other side containing the qb in the pocket

Ayers does need to have more of an impact, but while his stats dont show I saw more positives in his rookie year than I have seen in the Jarven's career so far

ZachKC
06-11-2010, 04:14 PM
Any chance we're trying to increase Moss' value so we can trade him?

Ha!

BroncoInferno
06-11-2010, 04:15 PM
Um, did everyone fail to notice that Ayers did not practice at all today? That doesn't mean he was demoted.

gyldenlove
06-11-2010, 05:32 PM
Um, did everyone fail to notice that Ayers did not practice at all today? That doesn't mean he was demoted.

When it is a coaches decision that you sit out practice it does mean you did something wrong.

Broncos_OTM
06-11-2010, 05:49 PM
i don't see the issue. new DC, tweaks to the system and he didn't have the expected year that people were hoping for.
sounds like a motivation technique and if anything it's good that Moss is potentially starting to come around.
Winner winner chicken dinner.

Although you might get criticuEd around here for not being do and gloom or sarcastc

SouthStndJunkie
06-11-2010, 07:17 PM
I don't mind that so much.

What I DO mind:

He's a converted 4-3 strongside DE, with a fantastic skillset at the point of attack on running downs... yet he was only used primarily in nickle packages.

2011 is his make it or break it season, imo. Will be great if he can play more and better this year, but if he still looks poor in Dec 2011, he needs to go back to a 4-3 defense where he belongs.

You take 426 snaps at OLB in the 3-4 defense and you should at least notch a few sacks.

He's not explosive enough to play 3-4 OLB in my opinion....when I look at him I see someone who should be playing 4-3 DE in the NFL.

randomtask
06-11-2010, 07:44 PM
Damnit, there goes my week of sobriety.

:griese:

By the way it's Griese's fault.

TheReverend
06-11-2010, 07:58 PM
You take 426 snaps at OLB in the 3-4 defense and you should at least notch a few sacks.

He's not explosive enough to play 3-4 OLB in my opinion....when I look at him I see someone who should be playing 4-3 DE in the NFL.

Yeah, I felt the same way before we drafted him:

In bold will have to be where we differ. With some good effort and good coaching, I think he'll be the best 4-3 end in this entire draft.

RE your explosiveness comment. I thought he definitely had solid explosion for a 4-3 player, but this is exactly why I love Gyldenlove... look at this year old assessment and line it up with your current Ayers gripe:

The best measure of explosiveness is the jumps, the first step. He was only average in that.

Here are his combine numbers:

Weight 40 yard 20 yard 10 yard bench reps Vert Broad Shuttle Cone
272 4.77 2.78 1.66 18 29 1/2 08'06" 4.51 7.58

For his weight and size he was average, compared to the smaller tweeners he was poor.

Ratboy
06-11-2010, 08:44 PM
I don't think Ayers was a disappointment but maybe that's just me.

I agree. We knew this dude was going to suck from the beginning. The only disappointment I see is us drafting this guy.

colonelbeef
06-12-2010, 02:35 AM
Just another step by McDaniels to alienate players he himself drafted while giving undue playing time to Shanahan-guys.

What a disgrace.

Or an indictment of the terrible drafting McDaniels has done, either way.

FireFly
06-12-2010, 02:43 AM
I'm not feeling the Ayers love in here tonight!

Bob's your Information Minister
06-12-2010, 02:45 AM
Jarvis Moss is still around? Christ. I thought he was sharing a condo with Marcus Nash or something.

BroncoInferno
06-12-2010, 06:49 AM
When it is a coaches decision that you sit out practice it does mean you did something wrong.

True, but it could be a relatively minor issue. You hear of the "coaching decisions" all the time that don't amount to a hill of beans. Let's see how it plays out in the next couple of months. If Moss is starting on opening day, then the sky may well be falling.

BroncoInferno
06-12-2010, 06:50 AM
Or an indictment of the terrible drafting McDaniels has done, either way.

Or an indictment of idiots such as yourself who judge a draft after one season.

azbroncfan
06-12-2010, 06:54 AM
They finally turned the Moss loose!

strafen
06-12-2010, 07:27 AM
Ayers is a superstar in the making!

broncosteven
06-12-2010, 11:42 AM
Jarvis Moss is still around? Christ. I thought he was sharing a condo with Marcus Nash or something.

Is it true that Matt Cassell is being mentored by Steve Bono?

Man-Goblin
06-12-2010, 03:20 PM
Still no Ayers today. McD still said it was a coach decision again, with no elaboration.

There is something going on behind the scenes here, people. No use guessing till it comes out.

fontaine
06-12-2010, 03:33 PM
I don't give a damn whether Ayers plays with the first/second/special teams all offseason as long as he plays much better come start of the season.

Last year he was slow off the snap, didn't chase down plays and didn't show any second moves after his initial pass rush attack was blocked by linemen.

It doesn't take experience/time/snaps etc to show hustle and committment on every play and that's what I was most disapointed by with Ayers. Yeah every pick takes time to develop but even a rookie can show that he plays with a non stop motor which Ayers certainly DID NOT last year.

oubronco
06-12-2010, 04:08 PM
Put the player who is playing best in there and let the rest try to beat him out for playing time

SoCalBronco
06-12-2010, 05:02 PM
Jarvis Moss is still around? Christ. I thought he was sharing a condo with Marcus Nash or something.

Ok....that was funny.

Br0nc0Buster
06-12-2010, 05:16 PM
Josh said just a few days ago that Robert was one of the top offseason workers, putting in a lot of work and effort

I doubt he would go out of his way to say that if Robert was actually being lazy and dogging it
I have no idea what this is all about

watermock
06-12-2010, 05:33 PM
amusing.

expantion.

watermock
06-12-2010, 05:35 PM
Josh said just a few days ago that Robert was one of the top offseason workers, putting in a lot of work and effort

I doubt he would go out of his way to say that if Robert was actually being lazy and dogging it
I have no idea what this is all about

Moss is the real deal!

bronco militia
06-12-2010, 05:37 PM
Robert Ayers residing in the doghouse
Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on June 12, 2010 7:13 PM ET
Do the Broncos have the next Vernon Gholston on their hands?

It's way too early to call 2009 first-round pick Robert Ayers a bust, but a deeply disappointing rookie season has only turned worse this offseason.

Ayers worked with the second team defense at linebacker for the second straight day at minicamp on Saturday, despite Elvis Dumervil sitting out 11-on-11 drills.

Asked if Ayers was being punished, coach Josh McDaniels said, "I'm not going to talk about it."

The former college defensive end struggled converting to linebacker last season, making only 19 tackles. Ayers only has to look up on the depth chart to remember that his first-round status will continue to provide him chances.

Now lining up as Broncos starter at minicamp: 2007 No. 17 overall pick Jarvis Moss

gyldenlove
06-12-2010, 05:53 PM
True, but it could be a relatively minor issue. You hear of the "coaching decisions" all the time that don't amount to a hill of beans. Let's see how it plays out in the next couple of months. If Moss is starting on opening day, then the sky may well be falling.

The last coaches decision I remember was Scheffler and Marshall......

SoCalBronco
06-12-2010, 05:59 PM
I dunno Inferno...Josh's "I'm not going to talk about it" comment makes it hard to argue that it's something relatively minor.

fontaine
06-12-2010, 06:24 PM
Robert Ayers residing in the doghouse
Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on June 12, 2010 7:13 PM ET
Do the Broncos have the next Vernon Gholston on their hands?

It's way too early to call 2009 first-round pick Robert Ayers a bust, but a deeply disappointing rookie season has only turned worse this offseason.

Ayers worked with the second team defense at linebacker for the second straight day at minicamp on Saturday, despite Elvis Dumervil sitting out 11-on-11 drills.

Asked if Ayers was being punished, coach Josh McDaniels said, "I'm not going to talk about it."

The former college defensive end struggled converting to linebacker last season, making only 19 tackles. Ayers only has to look up on the depth chart to remember that his first-round status will continue to provide him chances.

Now lining up as Broncos starter at minicamp: 2007 No. 17 overall pick Jarvis Moss

This is just flat out wrong. Ayers didn't play excusively at LB. The coaches put him in on a three point stance plenty of times and he still looked sluggish and lacking effort.

TheReverend
06-12-2010, 06:24 PM
Guys we could seriously be over-reacting. Maybe it has nothing to do with his on-field performance and effort and he only killed a hooker or something.

God, I hope so.

Drek
06-12-2010, 06:42 PM
Guys we could seriously be over-reacting. Maybe it has nothing to do with his on-field performance and effort and he only killed a hooker or something.

God, I hope so.

Everyone is over reacting because McDaniels even said that Ayers was held out of practice.

Moss being 1st string when Ayers isn't even practicing is a massive non-story.

What will be interesting is how Ayers looks this year when we see him in live action. He's one of the few players who has ever outright said that all the preparation for the combine messed with his football conditioning. To further that theme, he was supposedly one of the most active in off-season conditioning leading up to this point.

For all we know the day off could have been praise of Ayers for impressing and getting himself into the kind of shape McDaniels/Martindale wanted him to be in at the start of camp.

Ayers is a project. When projects openly acknowledge their problems (like improper conditioning to last a 16 game NFL season) and we then hear word from others around them corroborating them doing what it takes to fix those problems that is a sign for optimism, not skepticism. Its not the same as the Jarvis Moss "I'm working harder" vague bull**** when they specifically mention what they need to fix and how they're fixing it.

Greg Rosenthal's article says Ayers was with the 2nd string for the second straight day, but McDaniels himself said on 6/11 that Ayers was held out of practice. Someone needs to check their facts, and I'm assuming it isn't the head coach.

Also a UDFA rookie is practicing at OLB opposite Moss. Either Ayers has seriously ****ed up in some way or McDaniels is just making Ayers "prove" its his job.

watermock
06-12-2010, 06:45 PM
So, we got Ayers, Moreno ,Fonzie, Tebow, some WR with a bad foot...and a guard.

And Quinn X2.

http://www.nndb.com/people/125/000086864/vince-lombardi-1.jpg

SoCalBronco
06-12-2010, 06:47 PM
Moss being 1st string when Ayers isn't even practicing is a massive non-story.


As Shanny would say.....anytime you got a guy like Jarvis Moss ahead of you on the depth chart, you're probably not going to last very long in the National Football League.

;D

watermock
06-12-2010, 06:49 PM
All our 1st rounders are projects.

Every 1.

Drek
06-12-2010, 06:59 PM
All our 1st rounders are projects.

Every 1.

Yeah, rookie RBs who lead their class in rushing and put up ~950 yards their first year are such projects.

TheReverend
06-12-2010, 07:02 PM
for all we know the day off could have been praise of ayers for impressing and getting himself into the kind of shape mcdaniels/martindale wanted him to be in at the start of camp.

Hilarious!

SoCalBronco
06-12-2010, 07:16 PM
For all we know the day off could have been praise of Ayers for impressing and getting himself into the kind of shape McDaniels/Martindale wanted him to be in at the start of camp.

.

Really? So guys get TWO days off in a row as a reward? I didn't know that. Ordinarily, if praise was due I'd expect Josh to actually give it....kinda like he's done with other youngsters (Royal, Tebow etc.)......not say "I'm not gonig to talk about it". I wonder how hard it would have been for Peter King to write a 5 page article on Tim Tebow without Josh commenting on him AT ALL?

Yes...he was held out twice totally for PRAISE! http://www.ottawahondaclub.com/forum/Smileys/ohc/facepalm.gif

I expect alot better from you that than line. I love the positive stuff and all and I'm sure we'd all love to take the homer angle every time, but this inference is just pushing it a little, no?

Seriously...that line was tsiguyian.

broncosteven
06-12-2010, 07:21 PM
Yeah, rookie RBs who lead their class in rushing and put up ~950 yards their first year are such projects.

This is how you lead your class in rushing:

Most Yards Gained, Rookie, Season
1,808 Eric Dickerson, L.A. Rams, 1983
1,674 George Rogers, New Orleans, 1981
1,605 Ottis Anderson, St. Louis, 1979

I think last year was a down year.

BTW Portis had 1500 yards and Sarge had 1400 in their rookie campaigns.

Play2win
06-12-2010, 07:23 PM
Between Ayers, Demaryius Thomas, and Tebow, we have three "projects". All these guys might take around 3 years to get there, but once they do, they could all be dynamic playmakers, and keystones to our team for years to come.

Obviously, Josh is playing chess here, and thinking a few moves ahead.

broncosteven
06-12-2010, 07:24 PM
...Also a UDFA rookie is practicing at OLB opposite Moss. Either Ayers has seriously ****ed up in some way or McDaniels is just making Ayers "prove" its his job.

I am guessing both.

TheReverend
06-12-2010, 07:24 PM
Really? So guys get TWO days off in a row as a reward? I didn't know that. Ordinarily, if praise was due I'd expect Josh to actually give it....kinda like he's done with other youngsters (Royal, Tebow etc.)......not say "I'm not gonig to talk about it". I wonder how hard it would have been for Peter King to write a 5 page article on Tim Tebow without Josh commenting on him AT ALL?

Yes...he was held out twice totally for PRAISE! http://www.ottawahondaclub.com/forum/Smileys/ohc/facepalm.gif

I expect alot better from you that than line. I love the positive stuff and all and I'm sure we'd all love to take the homer angle every time, but this inference is just pushing it a little, no?

Seriously...that line was tsiguyian.

I loved it. It's a guy who they've publicly said they're going to push because they have high expectations etc, but he gets rewarded with time off because he deserves it, while our aging all-pros like Dawkins and Champ clearly need the mini camp reps.

broncosteven
06-12-2010, 07:26 PM
Seriously...that line was tsiguyian.

A new OM phrase is born...

oubronco
06-12-2010, 07:30 PM
at least McD isn't handling his business in the press this time

Drek
06-12-2010, 08:26 PM
Really? So guys get TWO days off in a row as a reward? I didn't know that. Ordinarily, if praise was due I'd expect Josh to actually give it....kinda like he's done with other youngsters (Royal, Tebow etc.)......not say "I'm not gonig to talk about it". I wonder how hard it would have been for Peter King to write a 5 page article on Tim Tebow without Josh commenting on him AT ALL?

Yes...he was held out twice totally for PRAISE! http://www.ottawahondaclub.com/forum/Smileys/ohc/facepalm.gif

I expect alot better from you that than line. I love the positive stuff and all and I'm sure we'd all love to take the homer angle every time, but this inference is just pushing it a little, no?

Seriously...that line was tsiguyian.

I'm not saying I believe it. Just that we don't know the whole story and it is just as likely at this point as him being outplayed by Moss and a UDFA.

If it was simply that Ayers wasn't performing up to par and Moss had outplayed him for the job then I can't see any reason why Ayers would be excused from practice the first day of camp. That just doesn't make sense. If he's ****ing up he should be on the field trying to fix it one would think, especially when Doom is out.

I'm personally guessing he did something stupid like miss a meeting or make a crack about the OLB job being in the bag around some people he shouldn't have. If it was an actual play/production related issue they wouldn't have taken him off the field for a day, they would've actually made him run with the second teamers from the start.

This is how you lead your class in rushing:

Most Yards Gained, Rookie, Season
1,808 Eric Dickerson, L.A. Rams, 1983
1,674 George Rogers, New Orleans, 1981
1,605 Ottis Anderson, St. Louis, 1979

I think last year was a down year.

BTW Portis had 1500 yards and Sarge had 1400 in their rookie campaigns.

Down class or not, 950 yards from a split duty back isn't betting on potential. He stepped on the field and gave production from day one. I could go into all the issues that potentially slowed him down (holding out, spraining his MCL in his first pre-season game, having ****ty blocking) but the point remains, guy produced as a rookie.

The attitude that every young draftee needs to either set the league on fire or he's a bust/underachiever is a little ridiculous around here. Moreno stepped up and went to work from day one of the regular season last year. Ayers actually played meaningful minutes despite being labeled as a 3 year project by every scout out there coming into the draft.

Talk about a fan base spoiled by Clady and Royal. If that is our standard then we'll see a whole lot of "busts" for a while going forward, those kinds of rookie seasons are few and far between.

Br0nc0Buster
06-12-2010, 08:36 PM
My guess is he skipped a meeting or did something like that which pissed off Josh
it doesnt make sense to hold him out because of poor play, even if he was sucking he would still be on the field

So saying he was "demoted" is not entirely accurate either I think

Josh said something along the lines that he will be on the field tomorrow and said something like "well see how it plays out" to another question about Ayers

just me but it sounds like he was on the right track, but did something stupid and Josh is letting him know its not acceptable

broncosteven
06-12-2010, 08:37 PM
...The attitude that every young draftee needs to either set the league on fire or he's a bust/underachiever is a little ridiculous around here. Moreno stepped up and went to work from day one of the regular season last year. Ayers actually played meaningful minutes despite being labeled as a 3 year project by every scout out there coming into the draft.

Talk about a fan base spoiled by Clady and Royal. If that is our standard then we'll see a whole lot of "busts" for a while going forward, those kinds of rookie seasons are few and far between.

I dunno, I expected a guy who started 9 games and played in all 16 who is the feature back to avg more YPC than Knowshon did.

Knowshon had at least 70 more carries than Beanie Wells.

Rk Player Team Pos Att Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TD Lng 1st 1st% 20+ 40+ FUM
1 Knowshon Moreno DEN RB 247 15.4 947 3.8 59.2 7 36 52 21.1 2 0 2
2 Beanie Wells ARI RB 176 11.0 793 4.5 49.6 7 33 39 22.2 4 0 4
3 Arian Foster HOU RB 54 9.0 257 4.8 42.8 3 24 15 27.8 1 0 0
4 LeSean McCoy PHI RB 155 9.7 637 4.1 39.8 4 66T 28 18.1 1 1 2
5 Shonn Greene NYJ RB 108 7.7 540 5.0 38.6 2 33T 24 22.2 5 0 3
6 Kahlil Bell CHI RB 40 5.7 220 5.5 31.4 0 72 9

If Knowshon's YPC goes up everything else will. 3.8 ypc is pretty weak. Blame some on the line and injury but also blame some on lack of vision and speed to and through the hole.

Drek
06-12-2010, 09:14 PM
I dunno, I expected a guy who started 9 games and played in all 16 who is the feature back to avg more YPC than Knowshon did.

Knowshon had at least 70 more carries than Beanie Wells.

Rk Player Team Pos Att Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TD Lng 1st 1st% 20+ 40+ FUM
1 Knowshon Moreno DEN RB 247 15.4 947 3.8 59.2 7 36 52 21.1 2 0 2
2 Beanie Wells ARI RB 176 11.0 793 4.5 49.6 7 33 39 22.2 4 0 4
3 Arian Foster HOU RB 54 9.0 257 4.8 42.8 3 24 15 27.8 1 0 0
4 LeSean McCoy PHI RB 155 9.7 637 4.1 39.8 4 66T 28 18.1 1 1 2
5 Shonn Greene NYJ RB 108 7.7 540 5.0 38.6 2 33T 24 22.2 5 0 3
6 Kahlil Bell CHI RB 40 5.7 220 5.5 31.4 0 72 9

If Knowshon's YPC goes up everything else will. 3.8 ypc is pretty weak. Blame some on the line and injury but also blame some on lack of vision and speed to and through the hole.

The last criticism anyone would have of Moreno from college was lack of vision and acceleration through the hole though. So what's more likely, a major positive skill for him in college against the best collegiate defenses in the SEC just doesn't play at the NFL level for some reason, or the holes generally just weren't there and the MCL robbed him of much of the acceleration he displayed in college?

I'd consider the later theory more sound. The only legitimate knock on Moreno is a lack of elite top end speed (which is actually a fairly useless skill for most RBs). The production he gave is pretty damn impressive when you consider the frequency he saw an eighth man in the box and his line's inability to keep anyone off him.

And I know people love to put Buck up as an example of a back in the same offense with more success, but Buck was a change of pace back who rarely pounded between the tackles (where our OL was weakest). Getting outside and running behind Clady and/or Graham is a whole lot easier than expecting Ben Hamilton to go one on one with a DT and make a hole for you.

He produced well enough last season to where he legitimately deserved OROY honors. He didn't get it because Brent Favruh had a pet WR who made a few nice plays and the mainstream media was too busy circle jerking over it to notice Moreno, but his numbers where historically good enough for an OROY award every season an RB met them in the past. Hardly a "project" who underperformed.

Bob's your Information Minister
06-12-2010, 09:27 PM
which is actually a fairly useless skill for most RBsJamaal Charles and Chris Johnson would like to have a word with you.

Besides, it's not that he lacks ELITE speed. It's that he lacks even good speed. He ran a 4.6 for crying out loud.

Slowshon.

TheReverend
06-12-2010, 09:50 PM
He produced well enough last season to where he legitimately deserved OROY honors. He didn't get it because Brent Favruh had a pet WR who made a few nice plays and the mainstream media was too busy circle jerking over it to notice Moreno, but his numbers where historically good enough for an OROY award every season an RB met them in the past. Hardly a "project" who underperformed.

This is even more absurd than Ayers getting 2 days off because he's just that awesome.

1. I think it's funny that you make this argument in a year where there were NO significant stand out rookies and Knowshon didn't even net a single ****ing vote. Harvin had a significantly better rookie campaign. So did Oher (vote getter #2). Hell, so did Sanchez (vote getter #3). After that, you have guys like Maclin, Austin Collie and even Johnny Knox who in the same tier as Knowshon if not more successful thus far.

2. His numbers do not line up with past rookies of the year. Guys like Adrian Peterson, Portis, and Edgerrin James are actually insulted by it. His numbers also don't sniff Anderson. His rushing numbers don't touch Cadillac Williams or even Anthony Thomas. If you crowbar receiving numbers in, and just glance at totals then maybe, but you're also ignoring the impact those players had on their teams success. Meanwhile, our running game DECLINED when Knowshon came off the bench.

He's got special talent, but he's barely shown any of it. Is that a big deal? Maybe... not like RB is hard to transition into. But regardless, your point about him deserving rookie of the year is so hilarious my sides hurt.

baja
06-12-2010, 11:13 PM
Pull out the lobster spines and your side will stop hurting

watermock
06-13-2010, 01:47 AM
Between Ayers, Demaryius Thomas, and Tebow, we have three "projects". All these guys might take around 3 years to get there, but once they do, they could all be dynamic playmakers, and keystones to our team for years to come.

Obviously, Josh is playing chess here, and thinking a few moves ahead.

It's not the teams job to redshirt first round picks. That's moronic, to be a farm club.

fontaine
06-13-2010, 07:48 AM
Between Ayers, Demaryius Thomas, and Tebow, we have three "projects". All these guys might take around 3 years to get there, but once they do, they could all be dynamic playmakers, and keystones to our team for years to come.

Obviously, Josh is playing chess here, and thinking a few moves ahead.

I don't have a problem with drafting projects as long as you can also draft players who can come in and contribute because EVERY nfl team in Nov/Dec needs it's depth players to play a part, yes even rookies.

This is why it's extremely important that we see significant improvement and contributions from guys like McBath/Quinn/Alphonso Smith not next year, but THIS year.

It would be different if we had Marshall, then yes you can develop a Thomas.

It would be different if we had a real OLB, then we could develop Ayers.

We don't. We had real needs, not for depth players, but for starters along those two positions and if McDaniels drafted two players that weren't going to contribute in the first 2/3 years then he's not really filling a need. He's just screwing it up.

fontaine
06-13-2010, 08:01 AM
And just for the record McDaniels doesn't consider Ayers to be a 3 year project.

Ayers played in passing downs as a rookie.
He's pencilled in as a starter in his second year.

So while he may need experience and seasoning like every young player, the coaches are DEFINITELY expecting him to contribute now.

strafen
06-13-2010, 08:08 AM
And just for the record McDaniels doesn't consider Ayers to be a 3 year project.

Ayers played in passing downs as a rookie.
He's pencilled in as a starter in his second year.

So while he may need experience and seasoning like every young player, the coaches are DEFINITELY expecting him to contribute now.

They do expect them to contribute now.
If the "3-year project" didn't apply to Scheffler, Hillis and Cutler, why do we now have to give Moreno, Ayers and every draft pick from lat year a 3 year to develop?
It's amazing how the side you're on, determines or shows your real football acumen.

Cito Pelon
06-13-2010, 09:04 AM
It's gonna be interesting to see how these second-year players contribute in 2010. 2009 was a large draft class in terms of numbers:

Year Rnd Pick Pos To AP1 PB St CarAV G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD Int Sk College/Univ
2009 1 12 Knowshon Moreno RB 2009 0 0 1 6 16 247 947 7 28 213 2 Georgia
2009 1 18 Robert Ayers DE 2009 0 0 0 3 15 Tennessee
2009 2 37 Alphonso Smith DB 2009 0 0 0 1 15 Wake Forest
2009 2 48 Darcel McBath DB 2009 0 0 0 1 13 2 Texas Tech
2009 2 64 Richard Quinn TE 2009 0 0 0 1 15 North Carolina
2009 4 114 David Bruton DB 2009 0 0 0 1 14 Notre Dame
2009 4 132 Seth Olsen G 0 0 0 Iowa
2009 5 141 Kenny McKinley WR 2009 0 0 0 0 8 South Carolina
2009 6 174 Tom Brandstater QB 0 0 0 Fresno State
2009 7 225 Blake Schlueter C 0 0 0

10 draftees in 2009, five of them in round one and round 2. Five draftees for Denver in the first 64 drafted.

Two gone already. Several UDFA's still on the roster.

Only one rookie - Moreno - produced beyond mediocre as a starter.

Granted, McBath, Bruton, McKinley, Quinn, even Phonz, were probably selected not as impact starters since FA had produced Dawkins, Goodman, Hill, and Dan Graham, Eddie Royal, Marshall were already on the roster. The 2nd-rounders and McKinley were IMO selected as learners/ST contributors behind some solid vets the staff felt comfortable with.

But to call 2009 a good draft class, at minimum the team needs Ayers, Phonz, and Moreno to step it up this year, especially Ayers and Phonz.

To call 2009 a great draft class all five of the 1st and 2nd rounders will have to contribute mightily, as starters.

So I'm looking forward to TC and PS to see how the 2009 draft class performs with a year under their belts learning from the ageing vets.

fontaine
06-13-2010, 10:17 AM
It's gonna be interesting to see how these second-year players contribute in 2010. 2009 was a large draft class in terms of numbers:

Year Rnd Pick Pos To AP1 PB St CarAV G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD Int Sk College/Univ
2009 1 12 Knowshon Moreno RB 2009 0 0 1 6 16 247 947 7 28 213 2 Georgia
2009 1 18 Robert Ayers DE 2009 0 0 0 3 15 Tennessee
2009 2 37 Alphonso Smith DB 2009 0 0 0 1 15 Wake Forest
2009 2 48 Darcel McBath DB 2009 0 0 0 1 13 2 Texas Tech
2009 2 64 Richard Quinn TE 2009 0 0 0 1 15 North Carolina
2009 4 114 David Bruton DB 2009 0 0 0 1 14 Notre Dame
2009 4 132 Seth Olsen G 0 0 0 Iowa
2009 5 141 Kenny McKinley WR 2009 0 0 0 0 8 South Carolina
2009 6 174 Tom Brandstater QB 0 0 0 Fresno State
2009 7 225 Blake Schlueter C 0 0 0

10 draftees in 2009, five of them in round one and round 2. Five draftees for Denver in the first 64 drafted.

Two gone already. Several UDFA's still on the roster.

Only one rookie - Moreno - produced beyond mediocre as a starter.

Granted, McBath, Bruton, McKinley, Quinn, even Phonz, were probably selected not as impact starters since FA had produced Dawkins, Goodman, Hill, and Dan Graham, Eddie Royal, Marshall were already on the roster. The 2nd-rounders and McKinley were IMO selected as learners/ST contributors behind some solid vets the staff felt comfortable with.

But to call 2009 a good draft class, at minimum the team needs Ayers, Phonz, and Moreno to step it up this year, especially Ayers and Phonz.

To call 2009 a great draft class all five of the 1st and 2nd rounders will have to contribute mightily, as starters.

So I'm looking forward to TC and PS to see how the 2009 draft class performs with a year under their belts learning from the ageing vets.

This is pretty much it.

We had 5 picks in first two rounds. That's a huge quantity of opportunities in the top two rounds where historically most of your pro-bowlers and starters come form.

Obviously not all of these guys is going to be a home run, but you expect at least three out of the five to be starters and good players considering the staff thought so highly of at least two of them (Smith/Quinn) that they actively traded/manuevered to get these guys in the team.

Tombstone RJ
06-13-2010, 10:20 AM
They do expect them to contribute now.
If the "3-year project" didn't apply to Scheffler, Hillis and Cutler, why do we now have to give Moreno, Ayers and every draft pick from lat year a 3 year to develop?
It's amazing how the side you're on, determines or shows your real football acumen.

Yes it does dragster, yes it does...

WolfpackGuy
06-13-2010, 10:49 AM
If you need someone to bodyslam a guy after the whistle, Ayers is your guy.

He better put up more than 15 tackles and fumble return TD this year.

Play2win
06-13-2010, 11:07 AM
I don't have a problem with drafting projects as long as you can also draft players who can come in and contribute because EVERY nfl team in Nov/Dec needs it's depth players to play a part, yes even rookies.

This is why it's extremely important that we see significant improvement and contributions from guys like McBath/Quinn/Alphonso Smith not next year, but THIS year.

It would be different if we had Marshall, then yes you can develop a Thomas.

It would be different if we had a real OLB, then we could develop Ayers.

We don't. We had real needs, not for depth players, but for starters along those two positions and if McDaniels drafted two players that weren't going to contribute in the first 2/3 years then he's not really filling a need. He's just screwing it up.

I hear you, but I am completely in the "keep the faith" mode, and enjoy the ride. I can imagine it might be a bumpy ride-- a full on roller coaster, probably. But, I think we will get to the promised land, and I, for one, am going to enjoy getting there.

BigPlayShay
06-13-2010, 11:09 AM
Wasn't Tim Crowder running with the 1st uint in parts of last offseason? I will wait until August to get concerned.

Tombstone RJ
06-13-2010, 11:13 AM
I'd love for Moss to actually be good. I'd love for the light to go on in his head and just start kicking ass and taking names. But I seriously doubt that is going to happen. Ayers on the other hand is a guy who might need some motivating and this might be McD's way of motivating Ayers to work a little harder. Again, this is just part and parcel of McD's system that no one is being given anything. If Ayers wants to play then he's got to at least beat out Moss who is a guy with lots of physical talent but just can't seem to put it all together on a regular basis on the field. This is probably Mosse's last chance with this team (of course, I said that last year too).

Play2win
06-13-2010, 11:17 AM
Yes it does dragster, yes it does...

Yeah... what if my "real football acumen" is I just want to be a fan and enjoy the season and watch the games...

Cito Pelon
06-13-2010, 11:22 AM
If you need someone to bodyslam a guy after the whistle, Ayers is your guy.

He better put up more than 15 tackles and fumble return TD this year.

It wasn't after the whistle, and I enjoyed that bodyslam of Jamaal Charles. That was the best play Ayers made all year. Charles beat him outside, then stopped, spent too much time looking at how his blocking would play out, meanwhile Ayers came steaming in from behind in pursuit as he should do, Charles wasn't aware of the backside pursuit and got slammed. That's the NFL.

Charles didn't snivel about it, so why are you?

Drek
06-13-2010, 11:24 AM
This is even more absurd than Ayers getting 2 days off because he's just that awesome.

1. I think it's funny that you make this argument in a year where there were NO significant stand out rookies and Knowshon didn't even net a single ****ing vote. Harvin had a significantly better rookie campaign. So did Oher (vote getter #2). Hell, so did Sanchez (vote getter #3). After that, you have guys like Maclin, Austin Collie and even Johnny Knox who in the same tier as Knowshon if not more successful thus far.

2. His numbers do not line up with past rookies of the year. Guys like Adrian Peterson, Portis, and Edgerrin James are actually insulted by it. His numbers also don't sniff Anderson. His rushing numbers don't touch Cadillac Williams or even Anthony Thomas. If you crowbar receiving numbers in, and just glance at totals then maybe, but you're also ignoring the impact those players had on their teams success. Meanwhile, our running game DECLINED when Knowshon came off the bench.

He's got special talent, but he's barely shown any of it. Is that a big deal? Maybe... not like RB is hard to transition into. But regardless, your point about him deserving rookie of the year is so hilarious my sides hurt.

Traditionally if a rookie puts up the yards and touchdowns that Moreno did, leading the league in rushing, he either wins ROY or comes very close.

The fact that he didn't get a single vote more underscores a problem with the rookie of the year system than Moreno's performance. Its a popularity contest where playing with media darlings or in big media markets nets you more favor than actually being a cornerstone player on your team from day one.

I'll agree that it was a down year for rookie production, but that doesn't matter with regards to Moreno, one of the few rookies who did produce. He didn't have an amazing rookie season, but then he didn't have an amazing offense around him to help out either.

Acting like Moreno was somehow a big disappointment as a rookie is just blatant stat whoring (on YPC) and axe grinding. It completely overlooks the reality of what happened on the field.

Br0nc0Buster
06-13-2010, 11:33 AM
apparently Ayers was held out again today

I think its time :tebow: step in and intervene

Tombstone RJ
06-13-2010, 11:33 AM
I think we are all disappointed in Moreno's rookie season. I also think we've all been a little spoiled by the running game production in Denver for a long time. That being said, Moreno has to get better. He's arguably, the most talented RB the Broncos have drafted since Floyd Little. Portis was nice and the Broncos were lucky to get him but his college scouting report and production was no where close to Moreno's.

Moreno has to get better and he has to be a threat other teams game plan around. That is why the Broncos took him because they think he game be a game changer. If he gets the running game going it opens up all kinds of doors for the passing game. Orton is not a QB that other good defenses worry about because they know his limits. If the running game becomes a big threat then that opens up the middle of the field for Orton who is an acccurate passer.

Cito Pelon
06-13-2010, 11:45 AM
Well, I'm looking forward to see what Moreno does in year two. I'm sold on him as a solid tailback. I liked his work around the goalline as a rookie. He has that knack between the tackles inside the five that gets TD's.

Popps
06-13-2010, 11:48 AM
Wasn't Tim Crowder running with the 1st uint in parts of last offseason? I will wait until August to get concerned.

Thank you.

Popps
06-13-2010, 11:49 AM
Well, I'm looking forward to see what Moreno does in year two. I'm sold on him as a solid tailback. I liked his work around the goalline as a rookie. He has that knack between the tackles inside the five that gets TD's.

He's going to have a great season if the line can come together. Can't wait to watch the kid play.

TheReverend
06-13-2010, 11:51 AM
It's gonna be interesting to see how these second-year players contribute in 2010. 2009 was a large draft class in terms of numbers:

Year Rnd Pick Pos To AP1 PB St CarAV G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD Int Sk College/Univ
2009 1 12 Knowshon Moreno RB 2009 0 0 1 6 16 247 947 7 28 213 2 Georgia
2009 1 18 Robert Ayers DE 2009 0 0 0 3 15 Tennessee
2009 2 37 Alphonso Smith DB 2009 0 0 0 1 15 Wake Forest
2009 2 48 Darcel McBath DB 2009 0 0 0 1 13 2 Texas Tech
2009 2 64 Richard Quinn TE 2009 0 0 0 1 15 North Carolina
2009 4 114 David Bruton DB 2009 0 0 0 1 14 Notre Dame
2009 4 132 Seth Olsen G 0 0 0 Iowa
2009 5 141 Kenny McKinley WR 2009 0 0 0 0 8 South Carolina
2009 6 174 Tom Brandstater QB 0 0 0 Fresno State
2009 7 225 Blake Schlueter C 0 0 0

10 draftees in 2009, five of them in round one and round 2. Five draftees for Denver in the first 64 drafted.

Two gone already. Several UDFA's still on the roster.

Only one rookie - Moreno - produced beyond mediocre as a starter.

Granted, McBath, Bruton, McKinley, Quinn, even Phonz, were probably selected not as impact starters since FA had produced Dawkins, Goodman, Hill, and Dan Graham, Eddie Royal, Marshall were already on the roster. The 2nd-rounders and McKinley were IMO selected as learners/ST contributors behind some solid vets the staff felt comfortable with.

But to call 2009 a good draft class, at minimum the team needs Ayers, Phonz, and Moreno to step it up this year, especially Ayers and Phonz.

To call 2009 a great draft class all five of the 1st and 2nd rounders will have to contribute mightily, as starters.

So I'm looking forward to TC and PS to see how the 2009 draft class performs with a year under their belts learning from the ageing vets.

You're forgetting McBath. He was the best of the 2009 rookie class thus far and played well above expectations.

Traditionally if a rookie puts up the yards and touchdowns that Moreno did, leading the league in rushing, he either wins ROY or comes very close.

The fact that he didn't get a single vote more underscores a problem with the rookie of the year system than Moreno's performance. Its a popularity contest where playing with media darlings or in big media markets nets you more favor than actually being a cornerstone player on your team from day one.

Your popularity contest statement is extremely laughable considering he was the leading candidate to win it in EVERY article going into the season. He just flat out didn't deserve it... he got zero votes because that's exactly what his performance EARNED.

I'll agree that it was a down year for rookie production, but that doesn't matter with regards to Moreno, one of the few rookies who did produce. He didn't have an amazing rookie season, but then he didn't have an amazing offense around him to help out either.

Acting like Moreno was somehow a big disappointment as a rookie is just blatant stat whoring (on YPC) and axe grinding. It completely overlooks the reality of what happened on the field.

No. What you're doing is stat whoring. Bottom line: Knowshon played well in 4 games all season. Period. He has work to do. He can get it done, but he's got to play a lot better than last year.

TheReverend
06-13-2010, 11:52 AM
He's going to have a great season if the line can come together. Can't wait to watch the kid play.

This. Remember the Giants game? Oh lawd that kid was moving that day.

Cito Pelon
06-13-2010, 12:17 PM
You're forgetting McBath. He was the best of the 2009 rookie class thus far and played well above expectations.

Eh, you're a McBathaholic.

He's certainly fast and athletic. We'll find out this year if he's NFL starter smart, and can he make NFL open field tackles.

OABB
06-13-2010, 12:33 PM
I think we are all disappointed in Moreno's rookie season. I also think we've all been a little spoiled by the running game production in Denver for a long time. That being said, Moreno has to get better. He's arguably, the most talented RB the Broncos have drafted since Floyd Little. Portis was nice and the Broncos were lucky to get him but his college scouting report and production was no where close to Moreno's.

Moreno has to get better and he has to be a threat other teams game plan around. That is why the Broncos took him because they think he game be a game changer. If he gets the running game going it opens up all kinds of doors for the passing game. Orton is not a QB that other good defenses worry about because they know his limits. If the running game becomes a big threat then that opens up the middle of the field for Orton who is an acccurate passer.


I wasn't disappointed at all. In fact Moreno is my favorite player on the team and my favorite player since td or elway. The fact that some people don't see what i see makes me question alot of people's football knowledge here. I don't watch college either. I'm basing my man crush on all the games moreno played as a Denver Bronco. If there was a stock market to buy into for players, I would put it all on this kid.

The last time I felt this way about a player, was td's rookie campaign. To me, if you are down on Moreno you aren't allowed to talk about football at all. Just like if you voted for G.W. in 2004, you are not aloud to argue politics. Moreno will be huge for us, and I will be an obnoxious rub your face in the dirt guy about it too. I can't wait.

fontaine
06-13-2010, 01:19 PM
I wasn't disappointed at all. In fact Moreno is my favorite player on the team and my favorite player since td or elway. The fact that some people don't see what i see makes me question alot of people's football knowledge here. I don't watch college either. I'm basing my man crush on all the games moreno played as a Denver Bronco. If there was a stock market to buy into for players, I would put it all on this kid.

The last time I felt this way about a player, was td's rookie campaign. To me, if you are down on Moreno you aren't allowed to talk about football at all. Just like if you voted for G.W. in 2004, you are not aloud to argue politics. Moreno will be huge for us, and I will be an obnoxious rub your face in the dirt guy about it too. I can't wait.


Moreno isn't the problem at all.

He produced pretty well for a RB considering the OL couldn't consistently open up holes for him and defenders had a free shot at him in the backfied, in a passing offense that didn't really scare anyone.

The biggest problem last year in the running game was the amount of negative plays. The ZBS typically ensures that RB won't have to deal with defenders in the backfield but with our interior, Moreno had to fight off at least two/three tackles in the backfield every game.

TheReverend
06-13-2010, 01:21 PM
Eh, you're a McBathaholic.

He's certainly fast and athletic. We'll find out this year if he's NFL starter smart, and can he make NFL open field tackles.

He definitely is. He's the next big thing for our secondary.

TonyR
06-13-2010, 01:22 PM
I'm a little bit concerned about Ayers but two things make me feel a little bit better.

First, I recall Mike Mayock saying by his third year Ayers would be the best defensive player from the '09 draft. He didn't say first year or second year indicating he knew Ayers would take time to settle into his position in the NFL.

Second, Anthony Spencer was a first round pick of the Cowboys in '07. He didn't do a whole lot his first two seasons and then busted out last year, his third. Sometimes it takes time.

Not too early to be concerned, but far too early to panic and start calling Ayers a bust.

Dagmar
06-13-2010, 01:25 PM
6 pages. This crap wouldn't have warranted column inches even 5 years ago. It's obvious from the reports today that he ****ed up and was punished. That's it.

hookemhess
06-13-2010, 01:30 PM
Ayers Returns to Defense … McDaniels: Issue Has ‘Resolved Itself’

http://maxdenver.com/blog1/2010/06/13/ayers-returns-to-defense-mcdaniels-issue-has-resolved-itself/

BroncoInferno
06-13-2010, 01:53 PM
Ayers Returns to Defense … McDaniels: Issue Has ‘Resolved Itself’

http://maxdenver.com/blog1/2010/06/13/ayers-returns-to-defense-mcdaniels-issue-has-resolved-itself/

OK, this makes it pretty clear that it wasn't a performance related issue. Sounds like he may have stepped out of line somehow and got punished for it.

meangene
06-13-2010, 02:08 PM
OK, this makes it pretty clear that it wasn't a performance related issue. Sounds like he may have stepped out of line somehow and got punished for it.

All the whining about McD's draft busts and how guys won't contribute for several years, etc. can take a break now. Until the next preseason depth chart change alerts all the Chicken Littles again. ;D

Hulamau
06-13-2010, 03:00 PM
Or an indictment of idiots such as yourself who judge a draft after one season.

Bingo!

baja
06-13-2010, 03:02 PM
OK, this makes it pretty clear that it wasn't a performance related issue. Sounds like he may have stepped out of line somehow and got punished for it.

Howdy Inferno how ya bean?

TheReverend
06-13-2010, 03:16 PM
I'm a little bit concerned about Ayers but two things make me feel a little bit better.

First, I recall Mike Mayock saying by his third year Ayers would be the best defensive player from the '09 draft. He didn't say first year or second year indicating he knew Ayers would take time to settle into his position in the NFL.

Second, Anthony Spencer was a first round pick of the Cowboys in '07. He didn't do a whole lot his first two seasons and then busted out last year, his third. Sometimes it takes time.

Not too early to be concerned, but far too early to panic and start calling Ayers a bust.

Agree... but Spencer's comp was Ellis... far cry than what Ayers is up against here.

Traveler
06-13-2010, 06:32 PM
Did Moss sign a 4 or five year contract? Just wondering if this is the final year of his rookie contract?

Captain 'Dre
06-13-2010, 07:11 PM
Maybe they're trying to inspire Ayers? Hard to know the motivation behind what coaches do sometimes. Could mean a lot of things.

Correct, but it's unlikely that it could mean anything GOOD.

gyldenlove
06-13-2010, 07:13 PM
Did Moss sign a 4 or five year contract? Just wondering if this is the final year of his rookie contract?

5 year.

azbroncfan
06-14-2010, 12:22 PM
ZZZZZ offseason sports page news filler. Non story.