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View Full Version : OT: Placing the Blame as Students Are Buried in Debt


Hercules Rockefeller
06-02-2010, 01:17 PM
Stuff like this annoys me. My debtload was just about the same as hers when I graduated law school, and I know quite a few people with much higher debt loads. You knew what you were getting into.

http://finance.yahoo.com/college-education/article/109701/placing-the-blame-as-students-are-buried-in-debt?mod=edu-collegeprep

Just some suggestions for her:

An interdisciplinary degree in Religious and Women's Studies probably isn't going to pay a ton, even if it's from NYU

Don't go to NYU if you plan on getting a degree that isn't going to pay a lot when you graduate. I had a roommate in undergrad who left George Washington when he realized he wanted to be a teacher, and it was stupid of him to pay that much for an education when that's what he wanted to do. You work for a photographer, I don't know if that means you want to eventually be one professionally or what, a degree from any other school would probably serve you just as well.

Don't live in San Francisco, just about the most expensive city in the country, and then complain about how you can't afford things.

Pay something, even if it's just the interest, and not just continue to defer your payments.

Lots of people take on loan debt to go to college understanding that some day they will have to start paying it all down.

Smiling Assassin27
06-02-2010, 01:30 PM
Surely you jest. It's common knowledge that the government exists specifically for the purpose of allowing chicks like this to run up tons of debt on largely useless and unmarketable degrees. If she waits long enough, I'm sure our fearless leader, along with his merry band of wankers in Congress, will find a way to forgive her debt AND place her in a job AND guarantee her health care, even as she decides to just be an artist or something. In return, all she has to do is sell her political soul and become dependent on the government teat. Nice gig if you can live with yourself.

Dagmar
06-02-2010, 01:33 PM
Obama. Always Obama. And McDaniels.

gyldenlove
06-02-2010, 01:33 PM
In this situation it is solely on her.

She wasn't decieved in any way, she knew what the tuition bill was, and she knew she was borrowing the money to get her education. From what I can see from the NYU website an undergrad pays roughly 20k per year for education which means that the 100k debt should have covered all tuition, fees and probably rent and expenses as well, although the debt has accrued interest for 5 years.

What I wonder is...

... Why didn't she have a summer or part time job? I know you probably couldn't cover everything but a waitress part time job and a solid summer job should cover at least half the cost per year.

... Why doesn't she have a full time job? If she makes 2300 a month on 22 an hour that is about 20 hours a week. What is she doing with the rest of her time?

... Why hasn't she realized that defering is a bad idea? it is much better to make temporary agreements to pay off only interest to keep the debt manageable.

... Why she doesn't realize that education is an investment, if you invest in an education that is not going to make you a lot of money then make sure your bet isn't bigger than what you can afford.

... Why doesn't she reduce her cost of living (she could move to Myrtle Beach and get a job while having a lot lower rent etc) - you were all thinking that.

Paladin
06-02-2010, 01:36 PM
Surely you jest. It's common knowledge that the government exists specifically for the purpose of allowing chicks like this to run up tons of debt on largely useless and unmarketable degrees. If she waits long enough, I'm sure our fearless leader, along with his merry band of wankers in Congress, will find a way to forgive her debt AND place her in a job AND guarantee her health care, even as she decides to just be an artist or something. In return, all she has to do is sell her political soul and become dependent on the government teat. Nice gig if you can live with yourself.

That's just stupid.....

epicSocialism4tw
06-02-2010, 01:36 PM
San Francisco isnt more expensive than Manhattan. She made two poor choices there. Not to mention the terribile degree choice that will open up non-specific jobs that require a "college degree"...retail management, etc. If she wants a job in that field, then she needs to go to graduate school, which will cost her more money and the job will earn less than you can make by going into management. She's the classic fall-back teacher who ends up hating their job and complaining about wages.

I see this all the time. If you go to college, go with the mindset of being there to get a real job when you are done that will provide you with the lifestyle that you desire. College is expensive, and if you get done without a degree that will get you work, then you wasted your time and money.

Smart people take advantage of college. They use it to develop networks and to develop themselves personally to be prepared to forge their own niche in the field they want to work in. Don't be an idiot and let it go to waste like the girl in this article who is obviously more interested in living in fashionable cities and doing fashionable things than she is in working.

All of the information she needed was there for her. She made the decisions. Its her fault. Own your poor decisions...they have real repurcussions.

Kaylore
06-02-2010, 01:38 PM
My friend did this. He buried himself 100 grand in debt to earn an international studies degree. He said at the start of his college career he was assured by his councilors that he would make it all back after he graduated. Declaring bankruptcy doesn't move it either. He's screwed.

I don't understand how people can't factor that into their borrowing plan, though. I mean I know you kind of have to work backwards, but the pay dictates the job, dictates the degree, dictates the college plan, dictates your borrowing schedule and how you want to attack it.

There's this huge emphasis on "get your degree" and no emphasis at all on what to get it in or what we as a nation need. I understand that something like 40% of the jobs graduates will be working at four years from now don't exist and all that, but there needs to be more focus early on in school so students aren't just told to go to a college and get a generic degree. I think it's pretty jacked up.

bpc
06-02-2010, 01:41 PM
Did the school force her to take loans, just as banks forced owners into miserable mortgages so they could have the model home of their dreams, the 3 SUV's (dvd players included) and designer clothes? The two probably run hand n' hand and there's one side keeps trying rachet up the hype and anger. It's pretty laughable, then again, some people are stupid enough to blame somebody other than those who accrued the debt. Alas, it's the society we live in now a'days, where nothing is your fault, somebody was attempting to profit off of you with their evil capitalist tendencies.

In America you should be guaranteed life, liberty, a home, food on the table, a car, internet, pda, a job, an education, clothes on your back, a SNES, designer shoes.... the list goes on.

epicSocialism4tw
06-02-2010, 01:42 PM
... Why doesn't she reduce her cost of living (she could move to Myrtle Beach and get a job while having a lot lower rent etc) - you were all thinking that.

Sometimes you have to sacrifice. Manhattan is very expensive. It clearly was a poor choice to go to NYU.

She should move to somewhere cheap, find a better job, and begin digging herself out. If nothing else because it is her responsibility to own up to her own decisions.

epicSocialism4tw
06-02-2010, 01:45 PM
This generation of Americans are a whiny bunch of entitlement queens.

No sense of personal responsibility.

Garcia Bronco
06-02-2010, 01:48 PM
Degrees, frankly, cost too much. Its a reality. The only way to change that is to speak with your dollars and go to less expensive schools. And for the love of Pete, pick a degree that will actually make you money. Degree's in poly sci, theater, and English for example won't make you good money unless you are lucky enough. Engineering, Mathmatics, and programming will make you money.

tsiguy96
06-02-2010, 01:49 PM
look at the rise of education costs, and then look at the list of jobs you can currently get without a degree. education costs bury almost everyone whos family doesnt have money, im looking at the same problem right now.

Taco John
06-02-2010, 01:52 PM
Man, my student loan payments are the happiest payments I make each month. So glad I have them.

Garcia Bronco
06-02-2010, 01:55 PM
This generation of Americans are a whiny bunch of entitlement queens.

No sense of personal responsibility.

I didn't get that from the article. What I got was that colleges have convinced employers that degrees are needed for good employees. Americans are faced with fact that they have a better chance to get ahead with a degree. Then on top of that they get buried trying to get that degree financially. You know me...I believe in tough love. But from a 100,000 foot view, post high-school education is becoming cost prohibitive and it's not helping our country.

epicSocialism4tw
06-02-2010, 01:55 PM
Degrees, frankly, cost too much. Its a reality. The only way to change that is to speak with your dollars and go to less expensive schools. And for the love of Pete, pick a degree that will actually make you money. Degree's in poly sci, theater, and English for example won't make you good money unless you are lucky enough. Engineering, Mathmatics, and programming will make you money.

Other degrees that can make you money: accounting, biology (plus grad school), nursing, architecture, law (grad school), etc.

Some nurses make upward of 150k.

You can get a 2-year degree (radiology tech) that can make you 60k, which is probably three times what the womens studies chick is making.

tsiguy96
06-02-2010, 01:58 PM
Other degrees that can make you money: accounting, biology (plus grad school), nursing, architecture, law (grad school), etc.

Some nurses make upward of 150k.

You can get a 2-year degree (radiology tech) that can make you 60k, which is probably three times what the womens studies chick is making.

so people should base their education on waht makes money instead of what will make that person happy? i agree womens studies is ridiculous and people NEED to look at job outlook when picking a major, but at the same time, the fact that it costs so much money to get a degree in the first place that you need to get a degree that promises a lot of money in the future just to justify is pretty ridiculous.

Garcia Bronco
06-02-2010, 02:00 PM
[QUOTE=tsiguy96;2855764]so people should base their education on waht makes money instead of what will make that person happy? QUOTE]

The other issue there, to me, is you have a great deal of citizens that go to college too early to even know what will make them happy or not. So factor that in.

epicSocialism4tw
06-02-2010, 02:01 PM
I didn't get that from the article. What I got was that colleges have convinced employers that degrees are needed for good employees. Americans are faced with fact that they have a better chance to get ahead with a degree. Then on top of that they get buried trying to get that degree financially. You know me...I believe in tough love. But from a 100,000 foot view, post high-school education is becoming cost prohibitive and it's not helping our country.

I agree only in the fact that the job market has suffered and that education hasnt adapted. White collar tech jobs took a huge hit after 9/11 and havent recovered. Some white collar salaries were diminished to a third of what they were previously. The same thing is about to happen in medicine and the health sciences with Obamacare fast approaching.

They arent telling students that jobs are getting harder and harder to find upon graduation.

tsiguy96
06-02-2010, 02:02 PM
[QUOTE=tsiguy96;2855764]so people should base their education on waht makes money instead of what will make that person happy? QUOTE]

The other issue there, to me, is you have a great deal of citizens that go to college too early to even know what will make them happy or not. So factor that in.

i dont think anyone really knows what they want to do until theyve actually been in the field for awhile, but in order to get in the field you need a degree, and to get a degree you need to spend a ridiculous load of money. im out of my bachelors for about a month and can barely get an interview anywhere, im wondering if me having a masters will even help.

gyldenlove
06-02-2010, 02:03 PM
so people should base their education on waht makes money instead of what will make that person happy? i agree womens studies is ridiculous and people NEED to look at job outlook when picking a major, but at the same time, the fact that it costs so much money to get a degree in the first place that you need to get a degree that promises a lot of money in the future just to justify is pretty ridiculous.

Not at all, but if you follow your heart and get that degree in creative dance and navajo folklore you should stop whining about the cost. You did what you wanted, you knew at the onset what it would cost, now go ahead and pay it off.

You never hear people coming out of Disney land complaining about getting gouged by the hotel and food costs, they did what they wanted and they pay the price exorbitant as it might be.

If you are not going to use a degree then why get it from an expensive school like NYU? you could have gotten it from a much smaller school for a lot less and since you are not using that education it is not going to ruin your job perspectives, I doubt the photographer she works for currently was really looking for someone with an honors degree from a top college.

epicSocialism4tw
06-02-2010, 02:06 PM
so people should base their education on waht makes money instead of what will make that person happy? i agree womens studies is ridiculous and people NEED to look at job outlook when picking a major, but at the same time, the fact that it costs so much money to get a degree in the first place that you need to get a degree that promises a lot of money in the future just to justify is pretty ridiculous.

Its reality.

You need a job that pays you enough to pay back your loans, and still provides you with the lifestyle that you want while you are doing that and paying for your other expenses. Those are the two most important factors. Taking those factors into account, you then start looking at things that you would enjoy and that you know you could be successful doing.

That's how you cover your bases.

The pie in the sky "oh, im doing this because I love it" approach drops you on your face where this NYU girl ended up more often than not.

Man-Goblin
06-02-2010, 02:12 PM
I didn't get that from the article. What I got was that colleges have convinced employers that degrees are needed for good employees. Americans are faced with fact that they have a better chance to get ahead with a degree. Then on top of that they get buried trying to get that degree financially. You know me...I believe in tough love. But from a 100,000 foot view, post high-school education is becoming cost prohibitive and it's not helping our country.

I would be willing to bet that in-state tuition nationwide is still pretty affordable.

I paid for my degrees at CU strictly through loans, grants and working part time. I have a very affordable loan payment of $133/month.

Granted, I graduated in 2003, and I have heard CU's tuition costs are rising. But it would be interesting to see the data.

epicSocialism4tw
06-02-2010, 02:16 PM
I would be willing to bet that in-state tuition nationwide is still pretty affordable.

I paid for my degrees at CU strictly through loans, grants and working part time. I have a very affordable loan payment of $133/month.

Granted, I graduated in 2003, and I have heard CU's tuition costs are rising. But it would be interesting to see the data.

You can still find in-state tuition in most states for less than 10k/year for undergraduate programs. Some states (SC for instance) give kids money to go to college.

Garcia Bronco
06-02-2010, 02:25 PM
[QUOTE=Garcia Bronco;2855767]

i dont think anyone really knows what they want to do until theyve actually been in the field for awhile, but in order to get in the field you need a degree, and to get a degree you need to spend a ridiculous load of money. im out of my bachelors for about a month and can barely get an interview anywhere, im wondering if me having a masters will even help.

That's why I say get a job first as early as you can and then decide on school. Or if you have the means, take the time to think about it after high school. Now the issue becomes whether they go or not. I guess whether you go, don't go, wait, take loans, or pay out of pocket the individual has to have the discipline to study the factors. Then they have a better chance to make an informed decision.

Inkana7
06-02-2010, 02:30 PM
You can still find in-state tuition in most states for less than 10k/year for undergraduate programs. Some states (SC for instance) give kids money to go to college.

South Carolina is VERY nice to kids that go to school in-state. I know a girl from there and I'm very jealous of what they have to pay in comparison to here in Ohio.

epicSocialism4tw
06-02-2010, 02:35 PM
South Carolina is VERY nice to kids that go to school in-state. I know a girl from there and I'm very jealous of what they have to pay in comparison to here in Ohio.

Texas is pretty reasonable as well. The UT system is pretty good (especially UT Austin, which is an awesome school all around), and you end up spending about 8-9k on school expenses in an academic year. Texas also has relatively cheap grad school (at least in the health sciences...I dont know much about other fields).

California isnt bad either. Oklahoma is cheap.

Garcia Bronco
06-02-2010, 02:41 PM
I would be willing to bet that in-state tuition nationwide is still pretty affordable.

I paid for my degrees at CU strictly through loans, grants and working part time. I have a very affordable loan payment of $133/month.

Granted, I graduated in 2003, and I have heard CU's tuition costs are rising. But it would be interesting to see the data.

My loans were the same way in the 90's. I have paid them off, but I made a few dumb decisions that kicked my butt for a few years. I'll try to make this short. I bought a new car and way more than I should have. Then the dotcom bust..laid off. Boomerang. Then I change careers because I got a degree in psychology and WTF do you do with that if you don't want to be a doctor? Back to school. More student loans through a bank. It got screwed up. So now I even have to make more money. Sometimes you learn the hard way, but I got it done.

gyldenlove
06-02-2010, 03:00 PM
My loans were the same way in the 90's. I have paid them off, but I made a few dumb decisions that kicked my butt for a few years. I'll try to make this short. I bought a new car and way more than I should have. Then the dotcom bust..laid off. Boomerang. Then I change careers because I got a degree in psychology and WTF do you do with that if you don't want to be a doctor? Back to school. More student loans through a bank. It got screwed up. So now I even have to make more money. Sometimes you learn the hard way, but I got it done.

How many times did you whine to media about your situation?

Garcia Bronco
06-02-2010, 03:18 PM
How many times did you whine to media about your situation?

Sadly...no one came to my press conference.

jhns
06-02-2010, 03:23 PM
I just got my mommy to pay for my college education. It made life easier.

MplsBronco
06-02-2010, 03:24 PM
Didn't read the article but why are we making it so expensive to get an education, particularly a good education? We are not setting ourselves up well for the future as a nation.

kappys
06-02-2010, 03:36 PM
Degrees, frankly, cost too much. Its a reality. The only way to change that is to speak with your dollars and go to less expensive schools. And for the love of Pete, pick a degree that will actually make you money. Degree's in poly sci, theater, and English for example won't make you good money unless you are lucky enough. Engineering, Mathmatics, and programming will make you money.

You are spot on there. One of the best deciscions I made was to go to state school. Also got a couple scholarships that helped for the first 3 years. In the end I left with roughly half the cost of most of my colleagues and noone even asks where I went to school at this point.

epicSocialism4tw
06-02-2010, 03:40 PM
You are spot on there. One of the best deciscions I made was to go to state school. Also got a couple scholarships that helped for the first 3 years. In the end I left with roughly half the cost of most of my colleagues and noone even asks where I went to school at this point.

Same here. After the first job, your school means very little.

tsiguy96
06-02-2010, 03:43 PM
in the grand scheme of things, its a cop out to say "pick a better major" when talking about education costs burying students into debt. its not realistic to ask students to fill into 10 majors that pay good just so they can leave school with little debt.



http://inflationdata.com/inflation/images/charts/Education/education.jpg


For example, if the cost of college tuition was $10,000 in 1986, it would now cost the same student over $20,000 if education had increased as much as the average inflation rate but instead education is $51,000 or almost 2 times the inflation rate.

loborugger
06-02-2010, 03:43 PM
she's been enrolled in night school, which allows her to defer loan payments.

Well, if she is studying something useful, maybe this isnt as bad a solution as the paper initially suggested. Not that world doesnt need a ton more women's studies types.

epicSocialism4tw
06-02-2010, 03:45 PM
she's been enrolled in night school, which allows her to defer loan payments.

Well, if she is studying something useful, maybe this isnt as bad a solution as the paper initially suggested. Not that world doesnt need a ton more women's studies types.

Actually, she's paying for classes so that she can accrue more interest.

This chick is a couple bricks short of a load.

bronclvr
06-02-2010, 03:53 PM
I read an Article last week on MSNBC that said that there are more people with Degrees than there are jobs requiring Degrees (even in good times)-I went back to post the Link and couldn't find it-looks like the bigger problem is skilled trades, nurses, doctors, etc.-

gyldenlove
06-02-2010, 04:07 PM
I read an Article last week on MSNBC that said that there are more people with Degrees than there are jobs requiring Degrees (even in good times)-I went back to post the Link and couldn't find it-looks like the bigger problem is skilled trades, nurses, doctors, etc.-

It is easy to stereotype, but in reality a lot of arts and humanities and social sciences degrees have little application outside of teaching. You only need so many people with philosophy or american studies degrees.

TheReverend
06-02-2010, 04:29 PM
Women's studies...

Has she tried applying to Lifetime?

BroncoMatt
06-02-2010, 05:18 PM
State schools should be free like in other countries. Why are our schools only public through high school? How does that prepare our society?

Atwater His Ass
06-02-2010, 05:18 PM
Unless you are getting a specialized degree from a major school, say an engineering degree from MIT, or something similiar, it really doesn't matter which college you attend.

Paying more for a "brand name" college degree is just plain foolish.

Man-Goblin
06-02-2010, 06:31 PM
My loans were the same way in the 90's. I have paid them off, but I made a few dumb decisions that kicked my butt for a few years. I'll try to make this short. I bought a new car and way more than I should have. Then the dotcom bust..laid off. Boomerang. Then I change careers because I got a degree in psychology and WTF do you do with that if you don't want to be a doctor? Back to school. More student loans through a bank. It got screwed up. So now I even have to make more money. Sometimes you learn the hard way, but I got it done.

My mistake in college was credit cards. They hand them out to 18 year olds on campus with $800-$1000 limits like they're candy. I maxed out three of them my first 2 years in school and it took me a few years after graduation to pay them off. But like you said you learn, and I haven't carried a balance on a credit card since.

tsiguy96
06-02-2010, 06:45 PM
My mistake in college was credit cards. They hand them out to 18 year olds on campus with $800-$1000 limits like they're candy. I maxed out three of them my first 2 years in school and it took me a few years after graduation to pay them off. But like you said you learn, and I haven't carried a balance on a credit card since.

same here, i still have a fatty balance on credit cards im working on, but at the same time you do live and learn, its a mistake you are unlikely to seriusly get into later in life when it can be detrimental.

mkporter
06-02-2010, 06:46 PM
I gotta put a good chunk of blame on this girl's Mom as well. She enabled this whole fiasco. I was very fortunate that my parents saved since I was 2 years old to put me through college. But I can tell you that they were very clear that they weren't going to pay for me to go to an out of state school unless it there was a justifiable reason for doing so. I was very well aware of how much money was being spent, and what kind of return was expected. If my parents hadn't been able to pay, I guarantee you there was no way they'd have any part of me racking up $100k in loans for some worthless degree.

gyldenlove
06-02-2010, 06:53 PM
Unless you are getting a specialized degree from a major school, say an engineering degree from MIT, or something similiar, it really doesn't matter which college you attend.

Paying more for a "brand name" college degree is just plain foolish.

It matters somewhat if you plan on going grad school, a big school definitely opens doors.

TheReverend
06-02-2010, 06:57 PM
State schools should be free like in other countries. Why are our schools only public through high school? How does that prepare our society?

While I completely agree, I benefit greatly from the current situation so stfu :)

Mr. Elway
06-02-2010, 06:57 PM
The real mistake was that tattoo.

Tombstone RJ
06-02-2010, 07:00 PM
Didn't read the article but why are we making it so expensive to get an education, particularly a good education? We are not setting ourselves up well for the future as a nation.

Because higher education is big business. I think it's a bunch of crap too.

OCBronco
06-02-2010, 07:04 PM
Texas is pretty reasonable as well. The UT system is pretty good (especially UT Austin, which is an awesome school all around), and you end up spending about 8-9k on school expenses in an academic year. Texas also has relatively cheap grad school (at least in the health sciences...I dont know much about other fields).

California isnt bad either. Oklahoma is cheap.


I can only speak for California, because I'm in the UC system. But the schools are cheap because tax payers help subsidize the system. Of course, that's not a sure thing anymore, since there's a movement under way to try to privatize the system. I suppose in the end it depends on whether taxpayers think it's a better idea to invest in colleges or prisons.

Tombstone RJ
06-02-2010, 07:05 PM
State schools should be free like in other countries. Why are our schools only public through high school? How does that prepare our society?

Are you high? Universities have to pay for mega facilities, plus the crappy professors, plus all the other crap that goes into higher education. You really think that should be free, or come from state taxes?

The real problem with the big universities is they have so much overhead they have to keep raising tuition. It's a joke for sure. That being said, it shouldn't be free. K-12 is already free and if you blow that then that is on you my friend, not on the rest of us.

400HZ
06-02-2010, 07:29 PM
It matters somewhat if you plan on going grad school, a big school definitely opens doors.

That is true only to a limited degree. That is most people's perception though, and that's why many of them end up in trouble. In my grad program, the only difference between the students who shelled out $20,000 a year in undergrad tuition and those of us who paid $5,000 is that we have beer money on Saturday night.

tsiguy96
06-02-2010, 07:31 PM
That is true only to a limited degree. That is most people's perception though, and that's why many of them end up in trouble. In my grad program, the only difference between the students who shelled out $20,000 a year in undergrad tuition and those of us who paid $5,000 is that we have beer money on Saturday night.

its completely true, hes not talking about if the location of your undergrad helps you get into grad school (sometimes does, depends on departmental connections and competitiveness), but WHERE you go to grad school means a lot more than where you went to undergrad.

Atwater His Ass
06-02-2010, 07:35 PM
I gotta put a good chunk of blame on this girl's Mom as well. She enabled this whole fiasco. I was very fortunate that my parents saved since I was 2 years old to put me through college. But I can tell you that they were very clear that they weren't going to pay for me to go to an out of state school unless it there was a justifiable reason for doing so. I was very well aware of how much money was being spent, and what kind of return was expected. If my parents hadn't been able to pay, I guarantee you there was no way they'd have any part of me racking up $100k in loans for some worthless degree.

It's great that some parents do this / are able to subsidise their child's education.

But, I'm firmly of the belief that it is up to the student to take that burden upon themselves. I saw too many kids just going through the motions at college with zero situational awareness, and a large part of that was mommy and daddy picking up the tab.

gyldenlove
06-02-2010, 07:37 PM
its completely true, hes not talking about if the location of your undergrad helps you get into grad school (sometimes does, depends on departmental connections and competitiveness), but WHERE you go to grad school means a lot more than where you went to undergrad.

Exactly, while it does open some doors if you got a really expensive undergrad when it comes to applying to grad school, having a PhD or Masters from MIT, Harvard, Oxford or Caltech is quite valuable compared to having one from say Southern Mississippi or Wayne State.

Atwater His Ass
06-02-2010, 07:39 PM
It matters somewhat if you plan on going grad school, a big school definitely opens doors.

Disagree once again. It's the same argument...once you get that masters or phd, it really doesn't matter where you got it from in the vast majority of cases. It only matters that you got it.

College and higher education, is really just about showing you have the commitment and drive to finish something. It shows you have the capability to learn, follow direction, adhere to schedules, develop networks, etc. In short, it prepares you for enterance into the workforce.

epicSocialism4tw
06-02-2010, 07:42 PM
Exactly, while it does open some doors if you got a really expensive undergrad when it comes to applying to grad school, having a PhD or Masters from MIT, Harvard, Oxford or Caltech is quite valuable compared to having one from say Southern Mississippi or Wayne State.

One of my buddies has an MIT PhD. People have taken his name from alumni lists and offered him jobs. But just like anything else, its who you know that gets you places with that degree.

gyldenlove
06-02-2010, 07:53 PM
Disagree once again. It's the same argument...once you get that masters or phd, it really doesn't matter where you got it from in the vast majority of cases. It only matters that you got it.

College and higher education, is really just about showing you have the commitment and drive to finish something. It shows you have the capability to learn, follow direction, adhere to schedules, develop networks, etc. In short, it prepares you for enterance into the workforce.

That definitely depends what field you are in. If you want to get a post doc at CERN or NASA or a researcher job at Lockheed, you are MUCH better off if it says MIT or Caltech on your diploma.

Sure if you are just going to go work for the state and do lab work or something then it doesn't matter, but if you want an elite job you better have an elite degree.

gyldenlove
06-02-2010, 07:54 PM
One of my buddies has an MIT PhD. People have taken his name from alumni lists and offered him jobs. But just like anything else, its who you know that gets you places with that degree.

Maybe it is just physics, but if you have a degree from a top school a lot more people want to know you. If you look over the top research facilities in the world you see a lot of very good schools and not a lot of small schools.

tsiguy96
06-02-2010, 08:03 PM
Disagree once again. It's the same argument...once you get that masters or phd, it really doesn't matter where you got it from in the vast majority of cases. It only matters that you got it.


thats not true at the masters and phd level. my brother is finishing his phd at marquette and got one of the best post docs available for his field. when you go to better colleges, you meet better and higher level professors, youre contacts are developed and you have a better chance at funding to get published. at bigger schools you get more funding and meet better contacts that will prepare you for the workplace, and these jobs are not publicly posted, its who you know and what have you done.

Dedhed
06-02-2010, 08:03 PM
[QUOTE=Garcia Bronco;2855767]

i dont think anyone really knows what they want to do until theyve actually been in the field for awhile, but in order to get in the field you need a degree, and to get a degree you need to spend a ridiculous load of money. im out of my bachelors for about a month and can barely get an interview anywhere, im wondering if me having a masters will even help.
Actually, I've never spent a minute as an accountant, but I know for sure that there would be a hostage situation within a month of graduating had I taken McSkillet's advice in college.

brncs_fan
06-02-2010, 08:04 PM
If you have the skills necessary it doesn't matter in the end what name is at the top of your diploma.

Both my wife and I started off in Junior College for two years paying college expenses out of pockets. From there we were able to earn grants and scholarships that took care of a good chunk of the rest. We both also worked a lot during school as well to subsidize the cost of education. We have her student loans paid off and mine are about done as well. We both have jobs that we love and we make enough to live comfortably.

She is actually getting her PhD now and we are paying for her tuition in cash! You don't have to go to a private college like NYU (especially for a degree in women's studies) to get a good job and be successful.

Dedhed
06-02-2010, 08:05 PM
If you have the skills necessary it doesn't matter in the end what name is at the top of your diploma.

If you have skills, the diploma itself doesn't matter.

epicSocialism4tw
06-02-2010, 08:17 PM
Maybe it is just physics, but if you have a degree from a top school a lot more people want to know you. If you look over the top research facilities in the world you see a lot of very good schools and not a lot of small schools.

Oh yeah...when he was finishing up his degree, he had people looking at him from all over the world.

The people that graduate from those schools can handle some serious work. They also form networks with other people just like them...so, jobs are relatively easily found.

Tombstone RJ
06-03-2010, 09:17 AM
If I was a high school councelor, this is what I'd tell my students:

1. Find out what you love in life, and then, find out what you are good at. If those two things are the same thing, then you have found your professsional career calling.

2. You don't need a college degree to be successful in this world. For example, if you what you love in life is to wrench on your motorcycle or car, and you are actually good at fixing mechanical things, then trade school is probably your best option.

3. Learning a trade is more important than getting a degree. If you become proficient at a trade, you can eventually own your own company.

4. If you don't go to college there are some night courses at the local community college that you need to take. Courses like accounting and time management will help you become a more efficient manager of yourself and your business. Know the language of business and that is accounting, know how to manage your own money.

That's pretty much it. Learning a trade is more important in life than getting some flakey degree. If you are lucky enough in life to know from an early age that you want to be a doctor or lawyer or astronaut or soldier or whatever, great! But, for the rest of us its way more pragmatic. Find out what you like and find out what you are good at. If you can marry those two things you have a great chance of being successful. If you can't marry those two things then find out what you are good at and just do it as good as you can!

gyldenlove
06-03-2010, 09:31 AM
If I was a high school councelor, this is what I'd tell my students:

1. Find out what you love in life, and then, find out what you are good at. If those two things are the same thing, then you have found your professsional career calling.

2. You don't need a college degree to be successful in this world. For example, if you what you love in life is to wrench on your motorcycle or car, and you are actually good at fixing mechanical things, then trade school is probably your best option.

3. Learning a trade is more important than getting a degree. If you become proficient at a trade, you can eventually own your own company.

4. If you don't go to college there are some night courses at the local community college that you need to take. Courses like accounting and time management will help you become a more efficient manager of yourself and your business. Know the language of business and that is accounting, know how to manage your own money.

That's pretty much it. Learning a trade is more important in life than getting some flakey degree. If you are lucky enough in life to know from an early age that you want to be a doctor or lawyer or astronaut or soldier or whatever, great! But, for the rest of us its way more pragmatic. Find out what you like and find out what you are good at. If you can marry those two things you have a great chance of being successful. If you can't marry those two things then find out what you are good at and just do it as good as you can!

The one thing people need to be told more than anything is that college will still be there in 5 years. I have taught enough 1st year university students to know that a significant percentage of them are not ready for it.

I think many would have a great benefit from working full time in whatever job they can find for 6 months and then backpacking around the world or serving in the military or going on a trip with a charity or working abroad for a year or two.

I worked full time for 2 years abroad before starting my physics degree and it meant I was able to deal with the workload, the cramming, living independently and taking responsibility for myself, something I see a lot of 1st year students incapable of doing and all it means is that they need to stay in school longer to make up for their awful 1st and 2nd year grades so they can get into professional school or grad school.

Tombstone RJ
06-03-2010, 09:42 AM
The one thing people need to be told more than anything is that college will still be there in 5 years. I have taught enough 1st year university students to know that a significant percentage of them are not ready for it.

I think many would have a great benefit from working full time in whatever job they can find for 6 months and then backpacking around the world or serving in the military or going on a trip with a charity or working abroad for a year or two.

I worked full time for 2 years abroad before starting my physics degree and it meant I was able to deal with the workload, the cramming, living independently and taking responsibility for myself, something I see a lot of 1st year students incapable of doing and all it means is that they need to stay in school longer to make up for their awful 1st and 2nd year grades so they can get into professional school or grad school.

Yep, I agree. Some people in this world just have a calling in life. Whatever that calling is (for Josh McDaniels it's football and specifically coaching football) some people just know what it is.

If a kid knows that he or she wants to be a doctor (and they have kept up with their grades in K-12) then hell yah, get your undergrad and then go to med school! It's going to take a lot of time and effort to become a medical doctor and if you know this is what you want to do for the rest of your life, then get on with it.

However, for most people it's a little more trial and error. Why waste a year or two at a college when you can be out in the real world working? Again, you have to get out there in order to find out what you want, no? Being in college can actually prohibit you from advancing in life, especially if you have no clue what you want to do.

missingnumber7
06-03-2010, 10:43 AM
I gotta put a good chunk of blame on this girl's Mom as well. She enabled this whole fiasco. I was very fortunate that my parents saved since I was 2 years old to put me through college. But I can tell you that they were very clear that they weren't going to pay for me to go to an out of state school unless it there was a justifiable reason for doing so. I was very well aware of how much money was being spent, and what kind of return was expected. If my parents hadn't been able to pay, I guarantee you there was no way they'd have any part of me racking up $100k in loans for some worthless degree.

My parents didn't pay a penny for my degree and I was forcibly pushed towards a private school. If it weren't for realizing that after 5 semesters they were dropping the program I was in, and weren't going to tell the students, that I transfered back to a closer state school and then getting told that I was no longer eligible for Fed financial Aid I wouldn't have joined the military and recieved tremedous help with my loans. But in 3 years I still racked up 30K, 10K paid by the army, and the rest is being paid by me.

Its part of being in the real world, and all these people lining up for goverment hand outs keep seeing other people pull crap like this and getting away with it so more and more people get in line for govt handouts. Next thing you know, people that really need those handouts can't get it so they dip into other funds and borrow from money that really isn't there to give out money, when most of the people getting the handouts should be out earning a living and paying for things out of their own pocket.

Don't get me wrong...I'm all for government assistance, when its needed, but I was told to go to unemployment when I was laid off from my construction job for the winter. I walk in, listen to people talk about how he forgot about his job interview here, or he'd just wait for construction season to start back up, and I turned around and walked out. Went to Target and applied to do anything they needed, turned off Cable and cut out alot of extras. I made it work.

DrFate
06-03-2010, 11:00 AM
State schools should be free like in other countries. Why are our schools only public through high school? How does that prepare our society?

I hope you realize that nothing is 'free', in other countries or not. Personally, I don't advocate higher taxes so that some chick can get a do-nothing degree and then watch her float on the taxpayer's dime after graduation as well.

missingnumber7
06-03-2010, 11:15 AM
I hope you realize that nothing is 'free', in other countries or not. Personally, I don't advocate higher taxes so that some chick can get a do-nothing degree and then watch her float on the taxpayer's dime after graduation as well.

Or Mandatory military service.

Gort
06-05-2010, 04:48 PM
Are you high? Universities have to pay for mega facilities, plus the crappy professors, plus all the other crap that goes into higher education. You really think that should be free, or come from state taxes?

The real problem with the big universities is they have so much overhead they have to keep raising tuition. It's a joke for sure. That being said, it shouldn't be free. K-12 is already free and if you blow that then that is on you my friend, not on the rest of us.

no schools anywhere are free. government schools are paid for by taxpayers. i have the high property tax bills to prove it. of course, to Obama voters, everything should be free, which is really code for "i shouldn't have to pay for it, somebody else should". the state of public education in this country is troubling... nobody is taught civics, or economics, or even critical thinking skills anymore. dumbing down the population through government schools was one of Marx' 10 planks for global communist/socialist domination. our government school system has embraced his goal wholeheartedly. :(

Tombstone RJ
06-05-2010, 04:58 PM
no schools anywhere are free. government schools are paid for by taxpayers. i have the high property tax bills to prove it. of course, to Obama voters, everything should be free, which is really code for "i shouldn't have to pay for it, somebody else should". the state of public education in this country is troubling... nobody is taught civics, or economics, or even critical thinking skills anymore. dumbing down the population through government schools was one of Marx' 10 planks for global communist/socialist domination. our government school system has embraced his goal wholeheartedly. :(

No argument here. Public schools are in trouble in many areas of the nation because they no longer focus on education. Nope, they have to instead baby sit the students. Why, because the parents are crap. Sorry, but this is the real reason many public schools fail. The parents don't care about their kids and they don't care about their kids education. They just want the kid to go to school and be fed and pampered by the school. The teachers can't teach because the classroom is full of perps and gang members. The teachers can't dicipline because they will get sued by the parents. The teachers unions also protect the crappy teachers.

It's a big mess and throwing money at it won't help. But I have a solution: if the kid is a dicipline problem, then hold the parents responsible. Hey, what an idea! If a kid brings a gun to school, throw the parents in jail, not the kid!

Yah, that's right, throw the lowlife, scumsucking parent(s) in jail. Hold the parents responsible for their kid's actions.

But NOOOO! People in this country don't want to take responsibility for their actions (or inactions in case of lazy no good parents). It's always someone elses fault!

extralife
06-05-2010, 05:07 PM
The problem with public schools are twofold: one, 1-12 is mandatory; two, schools are homogenized and everything is based on empty test scores and hardline mandated curriculum. Public schools aren't about learning, and they never were.

Meck77
06-05-2010, 05:14 PM
State schools should be free like in other countries. Why are our schools only public through high school? How does that prepare our society?

We could have funded it with the trillions we just blew via the bailout handouts.

I'm not sure what the costs are these days but in state tuition to the University of Arizona back in the 90's was around $900 semester. As a waiter I was making-50- 80 bones a night and paying for it with money left over for beer! Good times. It would seem much harder in this economy and increases.

Depending on the degree I just don't see why you'd spend 100k just to have some fancy name on your diploma. Hell nobody ever even asked for mine during the interview process.

RhymesayersDU
06-05-2010, 05:36 PM
However, for most people it's a little more trial and error. Why waste a year or two at a college when you can be out in the real world working? Again, you have to get out there in order to find out what you want, no? Being in college can actually prohibit you from advancing in life, especially if you have no clue what you want to do.

Well wait a minute here. With proper advising, the first two years don't have to be a waste. I'm one of the kids who grew up in New Mexico, could have gone to UNM for free w/ the lottery scholarship, but decided to go to private DU instead. I currently have roughly $15K I'm paying back right now.

I didn't pick my major (accounting) until the beginning of my junior year. The first two years weren't a waste. I took electives, I banged out core classes. I knocked down required basic classes to get any degree at DU while figuring out what exactly I wanted to do. Now granted, I knew I wanted a degree in business, so I also took some of the lower level business classes that again, were required of anybody getting any business degree. So maybe I was slightly ahead of the game. But nonetheless, I didn't waste my time taking every basket weaving class under the sun. I took classes that I needed while still sampling different avenues.

I guess my major problem with one of the things you said was that you'd tell a high school student to find what they loved and pursue that. Nobody in high school knows anything. Part of me figuring out what I wanted to do was leaving home, living in the dorms, living with other people, having a new experience, etc. I'm not saying that simply going away to college out of state is the answer. But what I am saying is, I think it's going to be pretty hard to tell a high school senior "figure out what you want to do" and get any kind of meaningful response out of them. You wouldn't have gotten one from me. But my college experience was very valuable both from an academic standpoint and a social standpoint.

Could I have gotten the same experience from a cheaper school? Yeah, probably. But let's not all just rag on college here, which I feel like is happening.

Tombstone RJ
06-05-2010, 07:54 PM
Well wait a minute here. With proper advising, the first two years don't have to be a waste. I'm one of the kids who grew up in New Mexico, could have gone to UNM for free w/ the lottery scholarship, but decided to go to private DU instead. I currently have roughly $15K I'm paying back right now.

I didn't pick my major (accounting) until the beginning of my junior year. The first two years weren't a waste. I took electives, I banged out core classes. I knocked down required basic classes to get any degree at DU while figuring out what exactly I wanted to do. Now granted, I knew I wanted a degree in business, so I also took some of the lower level business classes that again, were required of anybody getting any business degree. So maybe I was slightly ahead of the game. But nonetheless, I didn't waste my time taking every basket weaving class under the sun. I took classes that I needed while still sampling different avenues.

I guess my major problem with one of the things you said was that you'd tell a high school student to find what they loved and pursue that. Nobody in high school knows anything. Part of me figuring out what I wanted to do was leaving home, living in the dorms, living with other people, having a new experience, etc. I'm not saying that simply going away to college out of state is the answer. But what I am saying is, I think it's going to be pretty hard to tell a high school senior "figure out what you want to do" and get any kind of meaningful response out of them. You wouldn't have gotten one from me. But my college experience was very valuable both from an academic standpoint and a social standpoint.

Could I have gotten the same experience from a cheaper school? Yeah, probably. But let's not all just rag on college here, which I feel like is happening.

Fair enough, but I think my main point is college is not the end all be all of figuring out your potential and future in this world. If you go to college motivated to get a good education then you will get one. You went to school knowing you wanted a BS in a business field, so you had some idea of what you wanted to do. However, if a person goes to college because that's what everyone expects him/her to do then they may be wasting their time (and their money). You sound like you were a motivated student even if you were not sure of what you wanted to major in, and that's great.

enjolras
06-05-2010, 08:06 PM
You can still find in-state tuition in most states for less than 10k/year for undergraduate programs. Some states (SC for instance) give kids money to go to college.

Arkansas has incredible in-state scholarships. My wife and I both where PAID $15K a semester to attend school in Arkansas. It was awesome.

strafen
06-05-2010, 08:10 PM
Man, my student loan payments are the happiest payments I make each month. So glad I have them.I've got mine paid off, and I've just enrolled in another bachelor degree program.
Hope it pays off, and that I can pay it off this time around as well! Ha!

strafen
06-05-2010, 08:11 PM
Arkansas has incredible in-state scholarships. My wife and I both where PAID $15K a semester to attend school in Arkansas. It was awesome.I'm moving to Arkansas! ROFL!

enjolras
06-05-2010, 08:18 PM
Exactly, while it does open some doors if you got a really expensive undergrad when it comes to applying to grad school, having a PhD or Masters from MIT, Harvard, Oxford or Caltech is quite valuable compared to having one from say Southern Mississippi or Wayne State.

So my wife is a PhD from North Texas. Her degree is considered second level (of four or five tiers). Her issue being a masters degree from Central Arkansas, which carries VERY little weight. Her test scores where off the charts, but MIT and Texas both wanted a more prestigious masters degree. Being well published, and a lot of networking has effectively closed the gap. She's now considered a bright up-and-comer in her field, but it was a lot of extra work that she wouldn't have needed to do if she had the pedigree of a top-tier degree program behind her.

The thing is, she had lots of opportunities for higher tier masters degrees. That she went to low-tier university for undergrad simply didn't matter. Stanford, Berkley, etc... all came calling. She simply didn't know (at the time) that it was so very worth it to pursue those degrees.

So the formula I always recommend:

Undergrad: An inexpensive, but fun school. Your local state universities probably fit the bill... go to football games, go greek, and have a great time. Study and get good grades tho, but undergrad is not the place to be academically stretching yourself. Learn how to learn....

Masters: If you want an advanced degree, this is where you put up the money. If you can go ivy league, DO IT. I've been through 3 start-up cycles in the last decade. Competing with young ivy-leaguers is really difficult. They have access to capital that I simply never had (until I managed to build a successful business). An ivy league or top-tier advanced degree is worth every penny you'll spend on it.

PhD: If you want to go this far (and outside of a couple of disciplines you won't be doing it for the money) then find the best school that will take you. In some disciplines you'll go even farther into debt, and when you graduate you'll be competing for jobs with an army of other PhD's (almost any liberal arts field is this way) for the privilege of making what a cashier at COSTCO makes. Accounting and most engineering disciplines pay very well... you'll start at somewhere near 6-figures. So it's not all bad.

Requiem
06-18-2010, 06:07 PM
As I was nearing high school graduation, I had some tough decisions to make regarding my future and where I wanted to go to school. I was dead set on leaving South Dakota, and felt absolutely no reason to stay in the state. None of the schools I visited I really enjoyed, and I knew it was best for me to get away from the friends I had made and meet new ones and have a completely new experience.

Thus, I applied to the University of Oregon, University of Minnesota (Twin Cities) and North Dakota State University.

As an out of state resident, the University of Oregon was simply too much for me. Back in 2005, I think the costs with housing, tuition, etc. was near 30,000 dollars. I've heard it has went up considerably since then. I would have been able to cut that in half due to scholarships, grants and loans, but there was no way I felt obligated to sign on any more debt outside that.

South Dakota had reciprocity with Minnesota, but the U of M still would have been a little over 20,000 a year; which was still out of my price range. The admissions process there was sloppy as hell, and although I was accepted, they were too late and I had already made my decision on where I was to go.

Ended up going to NDSU in Fargo, and I loved every minute of it. South Dakota didn't have reciprocity with North Dakota, but I was offered a rate somewhere between in-state and out-of-state, so it was still affordable, and actually quite similar to some in-state schools in South Dakota. I was able to get grants, scholarships and working stipends -- and got involved in departments on campus that helped pay for some of my expenses in my time there.

In May, I ended up getting my double major (Political Science and Anthropology) and I without the juice figured (still waiting on all the documents so I can consolidate) I owe somewhere around ~ 30,000 -- which isn't too bad compared to a lot of people I know. I feel extremely fortunate, and hope that things wil work out for me.

I can't go out and say this girl did the wrong thing. She got a degree in something she enjoyed, and that is something I encourage. However, she probably didn't have to go to NYU and get that degree. It is the same thing I told my ex-girlfriend, who ended up going to UC Berkeley for a mass communications degree. I understand the prestige of the school, but I highly doubt it'll matter that much in the end.

I realize money matters, but I'd never tell someone to go and further their education and pick a degree based on how much you will be making. My father is living proof that your job can pay extremely well and it not matter if you absolutely hate it.

Currently, I'm in the midst of sending off my application to obtain admission to postgraduate school at the University of Sheffield in England. If I can't get in there, I'll continue my job hunt in the states. I have not had to settle in my job search and with my majors have found plenty of solid entry level paying positions that I can apply to.

I think a big problem with a lot of college students not being able to find work is the fact that besides getting their degree, most students don't do **** in college, don't get involved and lack the proper references and connections to obtain good work. I know people who have those "good money making degrees" as some have alluded to, but can't find work because they don't have any experience or anyone to back them up. That is their fault, and for that, I really don't feel sorry for them.

Not sure what else there is to say. If I could do it all over again, I'd probably do the same thing -- but it'd be interesting to see where my debt would be had I stayed in state and went to school here. Either way, I couldn't be more pleased with where I am at.

cutthemdown
06-18-2010, 06:31 PM
My suggesting to young people is medical for sure. One person mentioned what nurses can make. Another career to consider, if your really bright, is nurse anesthesiologist. They have to go to same school as a real anesthesiologist but can't do all the same procedures. The do outpatient stuff etc etc but they make over 120 grand a yr!!!!

Lolad
06-18-2010, 09:20 PM
I think the problem is the overall inflation of the college tuition. Yes a lot of students are coming out with degrees that will not take them anywhere. But in the overall scheme of things, if the U.S wants to be competitive in the future we have to find out a way to get the overall cost of education down.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
06-18-2010, 09:38 PM
Surely you jest. It's common knowledge that the government exists specifically for the purpose of allowing chicks like this to run up tons of debt on largely useless and unmarketable degrees. If she waits long enough, I'm sure our fearless leader, along with his merry band of wankers in Congress, will find a way to forgive her debt AND place her in a job AND guarantee her health care, even as she decides to just be an artist or something. In return, all she has to do is sell her political soul and become dependent on the government teat. Nice gig if you can live with yourself.

:notworthy

Requiem
06-19-2010, 12:08 PM
I think the problem is the overall inflation of the college tuition. Yes a lot of students are coming out with degrees that will not take them anywhere. But in the overall scheme of things, if the U.S wants to be competitive in the future we have to find out a way to get the overall cost of education down.

The price of tuition in the time I was an undergraduate went up probably a couple of thousand for me, probably around 500 or so a year, if not a little more. Not too much, but really, every penny does count.

Cito Pelon
06-19-2010, 12:32 PM
Seems like it's too easy to get out from under debt nowadays, too many easy ways out. People don't take debt seriously. I don't know what the solution is, but I'm thinking I pay a lot of tax money to bail bums out.

I'm thinking if you default on a loan you should be shipped off to Mexico in a one-for-one exchange and we'll take a hard worker in exchange that wants to actually work for a living.

Cmac821
06-19-2010, 01:00 PM
[QUOTE=tsiguy96;2855764]so people should base their education on waht makes money instead of what will make that person happy? QUOTE]

The other issue there, to me, is you have a great deal of citizens that go to college too early to even know what will make them happy or not. So factor that in.

That is what I face, but I am taking dual credit classes while in high school to save some future money

Requiem
06-19-2010, 01:05 PM
Seems like it's too easy to get out from under debt nowadays, too many easy ways out. People don't take debt seriously. I don't know what the solution is, but I'm thinking I pay a lot of tax money to bail bums out.

I'm thinking if you default on a loan you should be shipped off to Mexico in a one-for-one exchange and we'll take a hard worker in exchange that wants to actually work for a living.

As far as I know, you cannot default on student loans that are issued through the Federal Government.

Inkana7
06-19-2010, 01:16 PM
[QUOTE=Garcia Bronco;2855767]

That is what I face, but I am taking dual credit classes while in high school to save some future money

I did this. Saved me a ton. I entered college 5 credits short of being a "sophomore."

Cito Pelon
06-19-2010, 02:06 PM
As far as I know, you cannot default on student loans that are issued through the Federal Government.

The Feds don't issue the loans, they guarantee them. Therefore lots of students default on the loans and the taxpayers pay them off. It almost seems like free money to a lot of students.

Lolad
06-19-2010, 02:11 PM
The Feds don't issue the loans, they guarantee them. Therefore lots of students default on the loans and the taxpayers pay them off. It almost seems like free money to a lot of students.

Correct me if im wrong but that used to be the case. But now it's all through the Federal government. But I understand you're talking about the past

Requiem
06-19-2010, 02:24 PM
The Feds don't issue the loans, they guarantee them. Therefore lots of students default on the loans and the taxpayers pay them off. It almost seems like free money to a lot of students.

My brother filed for bankruptcy and he was not able to default on his college loans, and what Lolad said.

Requiem
06-19-2010, 02:26 PM
I did this. Saved me a ton. I entered college 5 credits short of being a "sophomore."

It is a great idea on paper, but not everyone has the opportunity to enroll in courses that transfer over to college. Especially people in small, rural areas where the school systems are already having issues. If I would have been able to do that (besides a few AP courses) -- I would have in a second. It is good advice, not not advice that everyone can take advantage of.

Lolad
06-19-2010, 05:50 PM
It is a great idea on paper, but not everyone has the opportunity to enroll in courses that transfer over to college. Especially people in small, rural areas where the school systems are already having issues. If I would have been able to do that (besides a few AP courses) -- I would have in a second. It is good advice, not not advice that everyone can take advantage of.

I actually did this, the majority of my classes almost 50 credits worth transferred directly into the engineering program. Drexel btw!

elsid13
06-19-2010, 05:55 PM
I'm moving to Arkansas! ROFL!

Dude it is Arkansas, it doesn't even have a roof*

Xenos
06-20-2010, 11:21 PM
I'm just glad I never had to use student loans in the first place to get through college.

baja
06-20-2010, 11:38 PM
I went to school on the GI Bill. had enough to pay tuition and rent with enough leftover for basic food.

I went in 1970, tuition was around $300 a semester for residents. You could rent a nice apartment for about $250 a month.

houghtam
06-21-2010, 04:00 AM
So my wife is a PhD from North Texas. Her degree is considered second level (of four or five tiers). Her issue being a masters degree from Central Arkansas, which carries VERY little weight. Her test scores where off the charts, but MIT and Texas both wanted a more prestigious masters degree. Being well published, and a lot of networking has effectively closed the gap. She's now considered a bright up-and-comer in her field, but it was a lot of extra work that she wouldn't have needed to do if she had the pedigree of a top-tier degree program behind her.

The thing is, she had lots of opportunities for higher tier masters degrees. That she went to low-tier university for undergrad simply didn't matter. Stanford, Berkley, etc... all came calling. She simply didn't know (at the time) that it was so very worth it to pursue those degrees.

So the formula I always recommend:

Undergrad: An inexpensive, but fun school. Your local state universities probably fit the bill... go to football games, go greek, and have a great time. Study and get good grades tho, but undergrad is not the place to be academically stretching yourself. Learn how to learn....

Masters: If you want an advanced degree, this is where you put up the money. If you can go ivy league, DO IT. I've been through 3 start-up cycles in the last decade. Competing with young ivy-leaguers is really difficult. They have access to capital that I simply never had (until I managed to build a successful business). An ivy league or top-tier advanced degree is worth every penny you'll spend on it.

PhD: If you want to go this far (and outside of a couple of disciplines you won't be doing it for the money) then find the best school that will take you. In some disciplines you'll go even farther into debt, and when you graduate you'll be competing for jobs with an army of other PhD's (almost any liberal arts field is this way) for the privilege of making what a cashier at COSTCO makes. Accounting and most engineering disciplines pay very well... you'll start at somewhere near 6-figures. So it's not all bad.

Pretty much agreed with everything here. It always seems like the people who say "you don't need a prestigious degree" know this because of second, third, or fourth-hand experience.

I got my BA from University of Cincinnati. When it came time for grad school, I applied to Wisconsin, Kansas, Penn State, and Michigan State. In my field, that was the order of prestige for those schools. Although I scored extremely high on the GRE and carried a 3.8 departmental GPA through undergrad, I was passed up on admission to Wisconsin. I received acceptances from Kansas and Penn State. I got a $5000 recruitment scholarship, TA position, full tuition and stipend offered from Michigan State, which was not very highly regarded in my field.

Every professor and administrator I spoke with at the time said that if I had started out at a Wisconsin or Kansas, my chances of getting into a much more prestigious school would have been much higher. I can also attest that my fellow TAs from MSU are in a lot worse hierarchic position than the people that I know who went to Kansas.

That One Guy
06-21-2010, 07:50 AM
There has and always will be a bailout for these people. For a simple 4 year term, the military will give them 50-100K in student loan repayment. They'll also have enough money to leave after 4 more years debt free. Nothing in life is free.

Mountain Bronco
06-21-2010, 04:18 PM
I have close to 100K in school debt, wife has over 30K we both have jobs in fields that are in demand and pay well so we can afford the debt. What the F did she expect with that kind of degree. What job is even out there with that degree?

Also, student loan debt you can consolidate with really low interest (mine is down to 1%) with on time payments and direct withdrawal. Entitlement Generation at its finest. Maybe she isn't whinning as much as the article is, but damn people take some personal responsibility for your actions. You went to a really expensive school, you got a worthless degree, and you live in a very expensive place. You want me to feel sorry for you?

tsiguy96
06-21-2010, 04:20 PM
you guys keep forgetting the point of the article, and that is that education costs are rising at a rate that is absolutely ridiculous and unaffordable for a very large amount of the population. student loans or not, the fact is that education should not cost 60k to go to a local in state school, 120k to go out of state.

Mountain Bronco
06-21-2010, 04:25 PM
^^^^ The world needs ditch diggers too. I say that in jest, but college is not for everyone nor is it an entitlement. I have friend who is in college and her parents couldn't afford much and she didn't want to be burried in loans, so she found a local school with incredibly hard standards (admissions wise and throughout school) that was affordable. She went into it with eyes wide open and it is paying off for her as she already as a paying intership in with an engineer after her freshman year because of her choice.

Accountability.

That One Guy
06-21-2010, 04:47 PM
you guys keep forgetting the point of the article, and that is that education costs are rising at a rate that is absolutely ridiculous and unaffordable for a very large amount of the population. student loans or not, the fact is that education should not cost 60k to go to a local in state school, 120k to go out of state.

Well there's so many people going to college these days that you're really not anything special until you have a post-graduate degree. That means plenty are finding a way to get it done.

Secondly, even if schools do matter, there's no reason the first two years can't be done at community colleges if needed. It seems our generation goes to college for the experience moreso than the degree. Until that changes it is obviously not cost prohibitive.

Rock Chalk
06-21-2010, 05:24 PM
Maybe it is just physics, but if you have a degree from a top school a lot more people want to know you. If you look over the top research facilities in the world you see a lot of very good schools and not a lot of small schools.

That has to do with money and donations to research the school receives - mostly from alumni.

Nothing to do with the school being better at all.

The simple truth is, what you learn at Harvard is, effectively, what you learn at the University of Louisville.

Louisville does not have the research facilities to match Harvard because they do not have the multi-billion dollar endowment that Harvard has nor the alumni base that actually donates money back to the school.

And for that matter, a degree doesn't make one smart. Einstein never got a degree, but many argue he was the most brilliant human being since Isaac Newton. BilL Gates never got a degree either, nor did Steve Jobs. A degree does not equate to intelligence nor to success, its just a piece of paper.

I could argue that many people who go to college and get their degree's and then complain about debt are quite stupid. As has been said many times before, you knew what you were getting into when you took on that debt and you chose to study a field that, through the course of your life, is not likely to ever be able to repay that debt.

Who the **** majors in Women's Studies and expects to make a living? This is a waste of money and colleges/universities need to drop stupid **** like this from the Curriculum.

gyldenlove
06-21-2010, 06:03 PM
That has to do with money and donations to research the school receives - mostly from alumni.

Nothing to do with the school being better at all.

The simple truth is, what you learn at Harvard is, effectively, what you learn at the University of Louisville.

Louisville does not have the research facilities to match Harvard because they do not have the multi-billion dollar endowment that Harvard has nor the alumni base that actually donates money back to the school.

And for that matter, a degree doesn't make one smart. Einstein never got a degree, but many argue he was the most brilliant human being since Isaac Newton. BilL Gates never got a degree either, nor did Steve Jobs. A degree does not equate to intelligence nor to success, its just a piece of paper.

I could argue that many people who go to college and get their degree's and then complain about debt are quite stupid. As has been said many times before, you knew what you were getting into when you took on that debt and you chose to study a field that, through the course of your life, is not likely to ever be able to repay that debt.

Who the **** majors in Women's Studies and expects to make a living? This is a waste of money and colleges/universities need to drop stupid **** like this from the Curriculum.

That is utter BS. When you get to advanced degrees there is a HUGE difference in the quality and content between schools.

Look at places like CERN, DESY, Bell labs, NASA, they have a disproportionately high representation of schools like MIT, Caltech and Ivy league establishments. In theoretical physics if you are a year behind you are irrelevant, so having access to a professor who is at the front of the field as well as major networking opportunities is going to give you much better qualifications compared to someone from a school without the means to attract top supervisors.

Einstein got his undergrad in 1900 from Zurich polytechnik and his Doctorial degree in 1905 from University of Zurich. It is true Bill Gates didn't finish his degree but he did spend a couple of years as an undergrad at Harvard.

University of Aarhus is a good example of why endowments mean **** when it comes to research, as a school it gets fewer donations and endowments than most state colleges, yet it is consistently ranked in the top 50 as a science school because good researchers attract good researchers, that is one of the reason they can have multiple Nobel laureates while having a student enrollment of less than 15.000.

That One Guy
06-21-2010, 06:42 PM
That has to do with money and donations to research the school receives - mostly from alumni.

Nothing to do with the school being better at all.

The simple truth is, what you learn at Harvard is, effectively, what you learn at the University of Louisville.

Louisville does not have the research facilities to match Harvard because they do not have the multi-billion dollar endowment that Harvard has nor the alumni base that actually donates money back to the school.

And for that matter, a degree doesn't make one smart. Einstein never got a degree, but many argue he was the most brilliant human being since Isaac Newton. BilL Gates never got a degree either, nor did Steve Jobs. A degree does not equate to intelligence nor to success, its just a piece of paper.

I could argue that many people who go to college and get their degree's and then complain about debt are quite stupid. As has been said many times before, you knew what you were getting into when you took on that debt and you chose to study a field that, through the course of your life, is not likely to ever be able to repay that debt.

Who the **** majors in Women's Studies and expects to make a living? This is a waste of money and colleges/universities need to drop stupid **** like this from the Curriculum.

Heyyy... I'm supposed to start at U of L in the fall. What are you trying to say here?

houghtam
06-21-2010, 07:47 PM
That has to do with money and donations to research the school receives - mostly from alumni.

Nothing to do with the school being better at all.

The simple truth is, what you learn at Harvard is, effectively, what you learn at the University of Louisville.

Louisville does not have the research facilities to match Harvard because they do not have the multi-billion dollar endowment that Harvard has nor the alumni base that actually donates money back to the school.

And for that matter, a degree doesn't make one smart. Einstein never got a degree, but many argue he was the most brilliant human being since Isaac Newton. BilL Gates never got a degree either, nor did Steve Jobs. A degree does not equate to intelligence nor to success, its just a piece of paper.

I could argue that many people who go to college and get their degree's and then complain about debt are quite stupid. As has been said many times before, you knew what you were getting into when you took on that debt and you chose to study a field that, through the course of your life, is not likely to ever be able to repay that debt.

Who the **** majors in Women's Studies and expects to make a living? This is a waste of money and colleges/universities need to drop stupid **** like this from the Curriculum.

This argument is pretty much the same (and generally comes from the same people who hold that opinion) as saying people from under-funded public schools are getting the same education as someone from a private school. Sure, every once in awhile you find a flower growing in a garbage can, but a garbage can isn't a great place to plant a garden.

houghtam
06-21-2010, 07:54 PM
^^^^ The world needs ditch diggers too. I say that in jest, but college is not for everyone nor is it an entitlement. I have friend who is in college and her parents couldn't afford much and she didn't want to be burried in loans, so she found a local school with incredibly hard standards (admissions wise and throughout school) that was affordable. She went into it with eyes wide open and it is paying off for her as she already as a paying intership in with an engineer after her freshman year because of her choice.

Accountability.

Agreed. College is NOT for everyone. And people who take student loans (regardless of what area of study they are for) need to realize it is real money that needs to be paid back.

However, the people making quips about "useless degrees" are pretty much idiots who don't know what they are talking about. I have a BA in German Literature with a concentration on 19th century German-American Immigration. I now run a movie theater. However, I wouldn't take back the experience that I got in college for anything in the world, nor would I trade in the 3 years I spent at university studying Latin and ancient Greek.

Just as the world needs ditch diggers, the world needs people who focus on anthropology, women's studies, languages, history, and all other manner of "useless" areas of study. Without these "useless" areas of study, we would live in a bland, boring world with no regard for our cultural past or future.

That said, I don't expect the government to pay for my "useless degree".



I do still want universal health care though.

cutthemdown
06-21-2010, 08:17 PM
Also college kids waste a tons of money partying. If you asked them what do you go without more, food or alcohol half of them say food.

That One Guy
06-21-2010, 08:18 PM
Agreed. College is NOT for everyone. And people who take student loans (regardless of what area of study they are for) need to realize it is real money that needs to be paid back.

However, the people making quips about "useless degrees" are pretty much idiots who don't know what they are talking about. I have a BA in German Literature with a concentration on 19th century German-American Immigration. I now run a movie theater. However, I wouldn't take back the experience that I got in college for anything in the world, nor would I trade in the 3 years I spent at university studying Latin and ancient Greek.

Just as the world needs ditch diggers, the world needs people who focus on anthropology, women's studies, languages, history, and all other manner of "useless" areas of study. Without these "useless" areas of study, we would live in a bland, boring world with no regard for our cultural past or future.

That said, I don't expect the government to pay for my "useless degree".



I do still want universal health care though.

Sure the degrees are necessary. SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE, in the world is taking advantage of a German Literature degree. That doesn't mean it's a good idea when planning for the future. If you get one of the half dozen jobs that require such a narrow field, perfect. If you don't, you could've benefitted equally from getting a degree in Smiley Face Design.

And you said it, you got an EXPERIENCE. If you paid for the experience and it was worth it, great. If you paid and it wasn't, well, you got the experience so you pay for it. The issue isn't with anyone and their decisions but it's with making the decision and then having complaints about how it turned out when the endstate is clearly the forseeable destination all along.

houghtam
06-21-2010, 09:01 PM
Sure the degrees are necessary. SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE, in the world is taking advantage of a German Literature degree. That doesn't mean it's a good idea when planning for the future. If you get one of the half dozen jobs that require such a narrow field, perfect. If you don't, you could've benefitted equally from getting a degree in Smiley Face Design.

And you said it, you got an EXPERIENCE. If you paid for the experience and it was worth it, great. If you paid and it wasn't, well, you got the experience so you pay for it. The issue isn't with anyone and their decisions but it's with making the decision and then having complaints about how it turned out when the endstate is clearly the forseeable destination all along.

I don't take issue with anyone calling this woman out for complaining about having to pay back a student loan. I DO take issue with some of the self-righteous ****s on here who think there is such thing as a useless degree. Everything has worth to someone, and I would go so far as to say every degree is worth SOMETHING to EVERYONE, whether you realize it or not.

Except Jay Cutler. He's worthless.

Hercules Rockefeller
06-21-2010, 09:09 PM
I don't take issue with anyone calling this woman out for complaining about having to pay back a student loan. I DO take issue with some of the self-righteous ****s on here who think there is such thing as a useless degree. Everything has worth to someone, and I would go so far as to say every degree is worth SOMETHING to EVERYONE, whether you realize it or not.

Except Jay Cutler. He's worthless.

And in San Francisco, this girl's degree is worth $20 an hour.

Atwater His Ass
06-21-2010, 09:19 PM
I don't take issue with anyone calling this woman out for complaining about having to pay back a student loan. I DO take issue with some of the self-righteous ****s on here who think there is such thing as a useless degree. Everything has worth to someone, and I would go so far as to say every degree is worth SOMETHING to EVERYONE, whether you realize it or not.

Except Jay Cutler. He's worthless.

And this is the attitude that lands these people into a situation like this in the first place.

houghtam
06-21-2010, 10:54 PM
And this is the attitude that lands these people into a situation like this in the first place.

Mkay.

So what exactly makes a degree worthless then? Is it anything that won't make you $50k a year? $40k? $60k? Or is it just some arbitrary list you came up with? Is it wrong to go into ANY field with limited availability? Or just ones you don't like? Are you going to criticize all college athletes with intentions on going pro, too, or is that sacrosanct because they play sorts that you enjoy watching while sitting on your fat ass and drinking beer? What about actors? Are their degrees useless too?

Go ahead and keep thinking the way you're thinking, chum. It won't change the fact that nearly every field of study offered anywhere has a use, whether or not its effects can be immediately seen.

As Richard Dreyfuss said in Mr. Holland's Opus: "Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want, Gene. Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about."

That One Guy
06-21-2010, 11:02 PM
Mkay.

So what exactly makes a degree worthless then? Is it anything that won't make you $50k a year? $40k? $60k? Or is it just some arbitrary list you came up with? Is it wrong to go into ANY field with limited availability? Or just ones you don't like? Are you going to criticize all college athletes with intentions on going pro, too, or is that sacrosanct because they play sorts that you enjoy watching while sitting on your fat ass and drinking beer? What about actors? Are their degrees useless too?

Go ahead and keep thinking the way you're thinking, chum. It won't change the fact that nearly every field of study offered anywhere has a use, whether or not its effects can be immediately seen.

As Richard Dreyfuss said in Mr. Holland's Opus: "Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want, Gene. Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about."

Since you wanted to get offended and take this personal, I'll contribute my opinion to you guys' spat.

I would say while the college experience is what many go for, choosing a bad field and getting a degree that wont pay for your college is probably a very bad decision and would be considered a useless degree. If college educated You can't use the skills you got to repay the costs accrued, it's useless. You can get that college experience while also studying something that is beneficial to your future and the lady in the OP apparently didn't. If she finds a way to use her degree then suddenly the useless degree is a useful degree and this is all moot. For the time being though, since she got educated in such a narrow field and is not applying it to her current job, it is essentially useless. She could've studied photography instead and could be doing much better but she's paying for a bad decision.

Binkythefrog
06-22-2010, 09:19 AM
A couple things I'd like to add:

1. The way loans are structured, federal loans usually can only account for a portion of a total student's debt. I went to graduate school, and I could only get federal loans for about 45k, and I have 20k in "Grad Plus" loans, which have higher interest rates. I pay about 6.5% interest on my federal loans, and 8% on my grad plus loans. Where lots of students get totally hammered is where they need so many loans that they have to go to the private sector.

Many lenders offer loans with variable interest rates. I have heard of terrible horror stories of students not doing their due diligence and now paying upwards of 15% in interest.

2. I am surprised that more students these days do not work while they are in school. Many of my classmates did not take other jobs. My part time job that I had paid for all of my living expenses, and I only had to take out loans for tuition.

3. Being married really helps. With the wonderful support of my wife, I am able to handle my loans much better than if I was living on my own. Now I'm not saying that marriage is best for everyone, but people nowadays are getting married later and later. I am 28 and was the first of my friends to get married. My parents on the other hand, were married at age 22, and started building their financial house much earlier than I did. So many people my age are just living an extended adolescence and not fully understanding the financial burdens they are placing themselves under. Having a dual income household is enabling me to pay my loans faster and therefore avoiding interest in the future.

Beantown Bronco
06-22-2010, 09:41 AM
3. Being married really helps. With the wonderful support of my wife, I am able to handle my loans much better than if I was living on my own. Now I'm not saying that marriage is best for everyone, but people nowadays are getting married later and later. I am 28 and was the first of my friends to get married. My parents on the other hand, were married at age 22, and started building their financial house much earlier than I did. So many people my age are just living an extended adolescence and not fully understanding the financial burdens they are placing themselves under. Having a dual income household is enabling me to pay my loans faster and therefore avoiding interest in the future.

For every one of you that are successful at employing this strategy, there's 5 other guys that run off to Myrtle Beach with the first thing that comes there way and end up ruining their lives.

Tombstone RJ
06-22-2010, 10:03 AM
Mkay.

So what exactly makes a degree worthless then? Is it anything that won't make you $50k a year? $40k? $60k? Or is it just some arbitrary list you came up with? Is it wrong to go into ANY field with limited availability? Or just ones you don't like? Are you going to criticize all college athletes with intentions on going pro, too, or is that sacrosanct because they play sorts that you enjoy watching while sitting on your fat ass and drinking beer? What about actors? Are their degrees useless too?

Go ahead and keep thinking the way you're thinking, chum. It won't change the fact that nearly every field of study offered anywhere has a use, whether or not its effects can be immediately seen.

As Richard Dreyfuss said in Mr. Holland's Opus: "Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want, Gene. Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about."

I agree in principle with your premis that all degrees hold value, at least on some level. That being said, what are you going to use that degree for? In the OP, the girl was complaining about how much it cost her to get her degree yet she had other options, she didn't have to spend all that money to get her degree of choice. The reality of the situation is she chose expensive school(s) and majored in a field of study that does not translate well to earning a living.

Really, if you are going to choose a degree like "Women's Studies" then the best thing you can do is get your MA and then eventually a phd in it in order to teach. All of that, of course, requires more $.

If this lady does not have a true "passion" for her degree then she kinda screwed herself. Becuase if she is not willing to do field research (go to a third world country, study the culture, write papers and get published, put in the 'hands-on' time and really make it a life goal) then she can't complain about her financial situation.

If I was her, I'd be like "'screw it'" I'm gonna apply for a grant and go to Africa or Latin America or Asia or where ever there is a real need to study "'women's'" issues and do field research in order to get published. I will then come back to the US in order to get a teaching position at an institution of higher education..."

Mountain Bronco
06-22-2010, 10:06 AM
I will then come back to the US in order to get a teaching position at an institution of higher education..."

To bad she would need more than being published and a bacheloret degree. She would also need at minimum a masters ($$$) and then a PhD ($$$$$$).<!-- / message -->

That One Guy
06-22-2010, 10:11 AM
I agree in principle with your premis that all degrees hold value, at least on some level. That being said, what are you going to use that degree for? In the OP, the girl was complaining about how much it cost her to get her degree yet she had other options, she didn't have to spend all that money to get her degree of choice. The reality of the situation is she chose expensive school(s) and majored in a field of study that does not translate well to earning a living.

Really, if you are going to choose a degree like "Women's Studies" then the best thing you can do is get your MA and then eventually a phd in it in order to teach. All of that, of course, requires more $.

If this lady does not have a true "passion" for her degree then she kinda screwed herself. Becuase if she is not willing to do field research (go to a third world country, study the culture, write papers and get published, put in the 'hands-on' time and really make it a life goal) then she can't complain about her financial situation.

If I was her, I'd be like "'screw it'" I'm gonna apply for a grant and go to Africa or Latin America or Asia or where ever there is a real need to study "'women's'" issues and do field research in order to get published. I will then come back to the US in order to get a teaching position at an institution of higher education..."

Odds are she isn't really even interested in the field. There would be SOMETHING that compared closer to her field than being a photographer's assistant if she really wanted it. Instead, she got a piece of paper that says she accomplished 4 years of college level classes.

When you see the things college has come to be known for in today's world, I kinda like seeing some of these people fall on their face. God forbid the places go back to being a learning institution first, frat party and athletic association second.

Tombstone RJ
06-22-2010, 10:17 AM
I will then come back to the US in order to get a teaching position at an institution of higher education..."

To bad she would need more than being published and a bacheloret degree. She would also need at minimum a masters ($$$) and then a PhD ($$$$$$).<!-- / message -->

too bad you didn't read my entire post :welcome:

Tombstone RJ
06-22-2010, 10:26 AM
If I was this gal, I'd go to Russia and study how women are being effected by prostitution, pornography and drugs and tie it into the overall effect of how the free market in Russian has failed terribly (not that I'm a socialist, but damn, Russia is just doing it wrong). I'd then research the effect of pandemic abortions on the overall society and how it's going to project long term into the social fabric of Russia.

Women are struggling mightily in Russia, they are for the most part being used and abused by the system. Men are pretty worthless in Russia and their first victoms are women IMHO.

houghtam
06-22-2010, 05:48 PM
Since you wanted to get offended and take this personal, I'll contribute my opinion to you guys' spat.

I would say while the college experience is what many go for, choosing a bad field and getting a degree that wont pay for your college is probably a very bad decision and would be considered a useless degree. If college educated You can't use the skills you got to repay the costs accrued, it's useless. You can get that college experience while also studying something that is beneficial to your future and the lady in the OP apparently didn't. If she finds a way to use her degree then suddenly the useless degree is a useful degree and this is all moot. For the time being though, since she got educated in such a narrow field and is not applying it to her current job, it is essentially useless. She could've studied photography instead and could be doing much better but she's paying for a bad decision.

For the record, I didn't take people's criticism of her choices personally. I took Rock Chalk's statement that "they need to take stupid **** like this out of the curriculum" personally, because that is an ignorant statement to make. There's a difference between a) chastizing someone for choosing a degree that won't make them any money and their complaints about having to repay the money they borrowed for said degree, and b) criticizing all degrees that you personally don't find very useful.

The college experience I received could not have been gotten while getting a degree in business because, well, I am not now, nor ever have been interested in what college business courses have to offer. I chose Latin & Greek originally, and later German Literature because that is what interested me. I can guarantee my "college experience" would have been more of a waste to me dreading going to classes that teach me stuff I already knew, than learning stuff I was genuinely interested in, whether or not there was any "practical" use for it.

I reject your statement that if you cannot make up the cost of your education with the money you make from the degree you receive, than your degree is worthless, because I do not see the money as the end that the means need to justify. Rather, I see the degree itself as the end.

Let's say you collect sports memorabilia. You see something you really like: oh, I don't know, a signed helmet from Elway's first game as a rookie. Do you want it for the value it has to you? Or do you want it for the value of resale later on?

I went to college because I wanted to learn something, and because I believe education has value besides the amount of money you can make. You're damn right I'm going to take it personally when someone stupidly suggests that colleges get rid of a curriculum because they personally consider it pointless, because there is no way you can clearly draw that line.

As for the bimbo the OP was referencing, people are right to be critical over her complaint of having to pay back student loans, but they have no right to criticize her choice of major, regardless of her loan status.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
06-22-2010, 06:07 PM
OT: Placing the Blame as Students Are Buried in Debt

Look no further than "greed is good" and the nitwits who have been hoodwinked into voting for it against their own interests.