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TonyR
05-31-2010, 11:36 AM
I think one of the surprises of training camps come August will be the readiness of Brady Quinn. Denver coach Josh McDaniels likes what he sees in Quinn, has tinkered with his drop and delivery (slowing him down, which was vital, since Quinn's drop always looked like someone just pulled a fire alarm), and will let the quarterback drama play out there. I still think Kyle Orton wins the starting job, but Quinn has a shot to unseat him, and Tim Tebow a very outside shot.

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/peter_king/05/30/mmqb/2.html#ixzz0pWtsaTew

SouthStndJunkie
05-31-2010, 11:39 AM
That doesn't surprise me at all.

I think Brady Quinn is going to start a lot of games this year.

Broncos123
05-31-2010, 12:27 PM
That doesn't surprise me at all.

I think Brady Quinn is going to start a lot of games this year.

I don't, if he starts 60% of the snaps it triggers something like an 8 million dollars contract for next year. I doubt he plays much this year, does not make good business sense

colonelbeef
05-31-2010, 12:49 PM
He has to be better than Orton.

Captain 'Dre
05-31-2010, 12:54 PM
He has to be better than Orton.

Says who?!?

We HOPE he's better than Orton, but that *hope* plus $1.50 will buy you a coffee at Denny's... and not anything more.

colonelbeef
05-31-2010, 12:55 PM
Says who?!?

We HOPE he's better than Orton, but that *hope* plus $1.50 will buy you a coffee at Denny's... and not anything more.

Says anybody who has seen Kyle Orton throw or run a football

I've seen marble statues move better in the pocket

KipCorrington25
05-31-2010, 12:59 PM
If he can't beat out Orton then he's terrible. Hell, Stephen Hawkin saw how Orton avoided the rush last year and he now wants a shot at the QB job.

Dagmar
05-31-2010, 01:12 PM
Says anybody who has seen Kyle Orton throw or run a football

I've seen marble statues move better in the pocket

14th ranked qb in the league last year. Your opinion is retarded.

Cool Breeze
05-31-2010, 01:13 PM
I don't, if he starts 60% of the snaps it triggers something like an 8 million dollars contract for next year. I doubt he plays much this year, does not make good business sense

If Brady does usurp Orton because of better play, the above statement is horse $hit.
That would be like saying Wil Wolfork wouldn't start here because he's too expensive...
It ain't your money brother - be a fan!Hilarious!

NYBronco
05-31-2010, 01:54 PM
14th ranked qb in the league last year. Your opinion is retarded.

... and behind that offensive line, not bad for a QB in a major offensive system overhaul. I'm all for Orton having a good year and look for some improvement over last year.

fontaine
05-31-2010, 03:42 PM
Who the hell cares about Quinn?

Seriously who the hell is he other than yet another QB bust out of Cleveland? I understand Orton is limited as a QB but I'm amazed to hear people clutch to a bust like Quinn and call Orton useless when all this guy did was allow the team to compete, handle himself professionally on and off the field and never pointed the finger to the usual defensive end of year collapse, junk OL and joke of a running game.

Orton as a QB is ok.
But, Orton as a leader and team player is all class.

We can only hope guys like Tebow/Quinn carry themselves like this guy has when his own coach brought in not one but TWO first round QBs in one offseason to compete against him.

A pu$$y like Cutler on the other hand pouted like a crybaby and whined his way out of town for far far less.

And we got Orton for what? Nothing really. The guy was thrown into the trade as an after thought, window dressing. He may not be a pro-bowler but in terms of bang for buck he's so far turned out to be McD's best move as a head coach.

gunns
05-31-2010, 04:02 PM
I don't, if he starts 60% of the snaps it triggers something like an 8 million dollars contract for next year. I doubt he plays much this year, does not make good business sense

So because he might cost us more if we play him because he's playing better and winning games, that's not good business sense? NFL football is a business and the business is winning.

14th ranked qb in the league last year. Your opinion is retarded

Thank god for those receivers and some amazing catches!

SouthStndJunkie
05-31-2010, 04:02 PM
I don't, if he starts 60% of the snaps it triggers something like an 8 million dollars contract for next year. I doubt he plays much this year, does not make good business sense

Winning as many football games as possible makes good business sense.

RhymesayersDU
05-31-2010, 04:07 PM
Seriously who the hell is he other than yet another QB bust out of Cleveland? I understand Orton is limited as a QB but I'm amazed to hear people clutch to a bust like Quinn and call Orton useless when all this guy did was allow the team to compete, handle himself professionally on and off the field and never pointed the finger to the usual defensive end of year collapse, junk OL and joke of a running game.

So if I understand correctly...

Orton is limited as a QB, but he's a really nice guy.

Wow, we are really lowering the bar for QB play.

Tombstone RJ
05-31-2010, 04:14 PM
I just think Peter King would love a QB controversy in Denver. He'll keep stoking the fires...

SonOfLe-loLang
05-31-2010, 04:24 PM
Who the hell cares about Quinn?

Seriously who the hell is he other than yet another QB bust out of Cleveland? I understand Orton is limited as a QB but I'm amazed to hear people clutch to a bust like Quinn and call Orton useless when all this guy did was allow the team to compete, handle himself professionally on and off the field and never pointed the finger to the usual defensive end of year collapse, junk OL and joke of a running game.

Orton as a QB is ok.
But, Orton as a leader and team player is all class.

We can only hope guys like Tebow/Quinn carry themselves like this guy has when his own coach brought in not one but TWO first round QBs in one offseason to compete against him.

A pu$$y like Cutler on the other hand pouted like a crybaby and whined his way out of town for far far less.

And we got Orton for what? Nothing really. The guy was thrown into the trade as an after thought, window dressing. He may not be a pro-bowler but in terms of bang for buck he's so far turned out to be McD's best move as a head coach.


Quinn started an entire 13 games in the NFL. He started 13 games for a horribly dysfunctional franchise that is in the process of completely cleaning house. He was a first round pick for a reason. I'm not saying he's going to be a pro-bowler, but i'd like to see what he can do with good coaching and a stable team before i proclaim him complete ****.

cmhargrove
05-31-2010, 04:27 PM
If Orton just would have scrambled well for 2 games, we would have made the playoffs.

I like Orton, but if Quinn can be Orton + mobility, it could be a good thing.

tsiguy96
05-31-2010, 04:31 PM
If Orton just would have scrambled well for 2 games, we would have made the playoffs.

I like Orton, but if Quinn can be Orton + mobility, it could be a good thing.

hard to disagree with this, and i like orton.

DBroncos4life
05-31-2010, 04:35 PM
hard to disagree with this, and i like orton.

Slowly the super fans are starting to point out flaws in Orton. I can't wait to see what they say about him after he is gone. :spit:

gyldenlove
05-31-2010, 04:51 PM
Quinn is the 2nd coming of Chris Simms, aside from not being spleenless.

Seriously, Quinn hasn't played a meaningful football game since his senior year at ND. If you can't beat out Derek Anderson who completed a Jamarcusesque 44% of his throws you do not belong in the NFL. The only impressive stat Quinn has ever generated was his 18 yards per catch last season, but that does seem like an anomaly.

tsiguy96
05-31-2010, 05:10 PM
Slowly the super fans are starting to point out flaws in Orton. I can't wait to see what they say about him after he is gone. :spit:

ive always said that orton is better than half you idiots make him out to be, but hes not great. nice try though.

HAT
05-31-2010, 05:39 PM
Quinn will not start a game for Denver in 2010 unless Orton gets hurt.

mhgaffney
05-31-2010, 05:56 PM
Quinn will not start a game for Denver in 2010 unless Orton gets hurt.

ooooh. I would not go out on that limb.

Rabb
05-31-2010, 06:16 PM
If Brady does usurp Orton because of better play, the above statement is horse $hit.
That would be like saying Wil Wolfork wouldn't start here because he's too expensive...
It ain't your money brother - be a fan!Hilarious!

exactly

I don't think for a second that Denver is going to limit play if Quinn is the clear starter

winning will just equal more $ for the team anyhow, thinking that they would purposely not let someone play because of an incentive is just stupid

HAT
05-31-2010, 07:05 PM
ooooh. I would not go out on that limb.

I will go out on it with wallet firmly in hand. Make me an offer.

Kaylore
05-31-2010, 08:41 PM
I think most fans know Orton isn't going to ever be awesome. However he's better than the haters suggest and with a good defense, solid running game and better special teams, I really think he could take us deep into the playoffs. Unfortunately when all that comes together for us we'll likely be moving forward with someone younger.

DBroncos4life
05-31-2010, 08:43 PM
ive always said that orton is better than half you idiots make him out to be, but hes not great. nice try though.

Just like you said that Cutler and Marshall need to retire with the Broncos. I know how you are when a "player" is a member of the Broncos there super fan.

TheReverend
05-31-2010, 08:44 PM
I think most fans know Orton isn't going to ever be awesome. However he's better than the haters suggest and with a good defense, solid running game and better special teams, I really think he could take us deep into the playoffs. Unfortunately when all that comes together for us we'll likely be moving forward with someone younger.

Khan...

You set a statement where he's under appreciated, and then place caveats for success that are ridiculous. You actually said, "If every other phase of the game is successful, he can be sufficient". I mean... jesus christ... who can't be a successful QB with good defense, special teams and running game?

Edit: Hell, in that scenario, you don't even really need a QB

SoCalBronco
05-31-2010, 08:44 PM
Just like you said that Cutler and Marshall need to retire with the Broncos. I know how you are when a "player" is a member of the Broncos there super fan.

You mean like when after we drafted Tebow he said he supported going in that direction after he spent the whole season on Orton's dick?

tsiguy96
05-31-2010, 08:47 PM
Just like you said that Cutler and Marshall need to retire with the Broncos. I know how you are when a "player" is a member of the Broncos there super fan.

i definitely wanted marshall too, i still like him. cutler on the other hand, i dont care anymore, after seeing the players we got for him im glad he was here for 3 years.

tsiguy96
05-31-2010, 08:48 PM
You mean like when after we drafted Tebow he said he supported going in that direction after he spent the whole season on Orton's dick?

i never spent the whole season on ortons dick jackass, i always said hes playing pretty good, even great a few games, and it was very very obvius when there was anyone else playing QB for this team last year. but his skills are not replaceable, even though i think he should start this year (unless quinn really shows something).

DBroncos4life
05-31-2010, 08:48 PM
You mean like when after we drafted Tebow he said he supported going in that direction after he spent the whole season on Orton's dick?

Yep, he already one foot off the Orton bandwagon. The only problem he doesn't know which player to jump onto Quinn or Tebow. :rofl:

TheReverend
05-31-2010, 08:58 PM
Yep, he already one foot off the Orton bandwagon. The only problem he doesn't know which player to jump onto Quinn or Tebow. :rofl:

Whichever plays. He won't say **** other than positive praise for all 3 until the regular season hits.

DBroncos4life
05-31-2010, 09:02 PM
Whichever plays. He won't say **** other than positive praise for all 3 until the regular season hits.

Very true. That's just the price he pays for being the best fan on the message board.

SoCalBronco
05-31-2010, 09:03 PM
i never spent the whole season on ortons dick jackass, i always said hes playing pretty good, even great a few games, and it was very very obvius when there was anyone else playing QB for this team last year. but his skills are not replaceable, even though i think he should start this year (unless quinn really shows something).

You need to formulate your own opinions. Don't always advocate whatever the team is currently doing. Take a look at things objectively and provide reasons for why you think they should do whatever it is you think they should do. Do NOT take a cue from the team. It's weak. You have a mind, and you've watched alot of football I'm sure, so you don't need to rely on the team for your opinion.

And yes you were on his dick the whole year. You were the ultimate homer. You spent the whole season trashing Cutler and praising Orton CONSTANTLY. Now...its somehow totally different because you can sense the wind is changing. Seriously man...think for yourself.

tsiguy96
05-31-2010, 09:06 PM
You need to formulate your own opinions. Don't always advocate whatever the team is currently doing. Take a look at things objectively and provide reasons for why you think they should do whatever it is you think they should do. Do NOT take a cue from the team. It's weak. You have a mind, and you've watched alot of football I'm sure, so you don't need to rely on the team for your opinion.

And yes you were on his dick the whole year. You were the ultimate homer. You spent the whole season trashing Cutler and praising Orton CONSTANTLY. Now...its somehow totally different because you can sense the wind is changing. Seriously man...think for yourself.

im very, very capable of thinking for myself, and i know for a fact i wasnt praising orton all year besides saying he did a good job and had a career year for him. he was good, sometimes great, but not consistantly great.

cutler deserved to be trashed all year, he was awful.

objectively, i cant make an accurate decision on whos the best because i dont sit and watch them in practice, i cant see whos struggling and who isnt in practice. i WANT orton to start this year because hes probably the best shot at winning a lot, especially if the defense holds up, he wont lose the game for the team. the other 2 you cant say that for right now. next year however, i dont think orton will be starting here, especially if tebow develops, so i hope they franchise and trade him.

TheReverend
05-31-2010, 09:32 PM
im very, very capable of thinking for myself


http://i607.photobucket.com/albums/tt156/tbattle3/0fa04b1befdc5cd3d02a6150d03f36f1.gif

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75465

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75855

SouthStndJunkie
05-31-2010, 09:53 PM
im very, very capable of thinking for myself, and i know for a fact i wasnt praising orton all year besides saying he did a good job and had a career year for him. he was good, sometimes great, but not consistantly great.

next year however, i dont think orton will be starting here, especially if tebow develops, so i hope they franchise and trade him.

You do realize that the franchise tender for a QB is over $14 million dollars of guaranteed money for one year?

tsiguy96
05-31-2010, 10:06 PM
You do realize that the franchise tender for a QB is over $14 million dollars of guaranteed money for one year?

you realize MATT CASSEL got traded after being franchised...

strafen
05-31-2010, 10:14 PM
I think most fans know Orton isn't going to ever be awesome. However he's better than the haters suggest and with a good defense, solid running game and better special teams, I really think he could take us deep into the playoffs. Unfortunately when all that comes together for us we'll likely be moving forward with someone younger.You forgot a solid offensive line. Heck, I even like my chances as a QB with that kind of support around me!

HAT
05-31-2010, 10:20 PM
You do realize that the franchise tender for a QB is over $14 million dollars of guaranteed money for one year?

Orton will be making more than that in 2011.

DBroncos4life
05-31-2010, 10:20 PM
im very, very capable of thinking for myself, and i know for a fact i wasnt praising orton all year besides saying he did a good job and had a career year for him. he was good, sometimes great, but not consistantly great.

cutler deserved to be trashed all year, he was awful.

objectively, i cant make an accurate decision on whos the best because i dont sit and watch them in practice, i cant see whos struggling and who isnt in practice. i WANT orton to start this year because hes probably the best shot at winning a lot, especially if the defense holds up, he wont lose the game for the team. the other 2 you cant say that for right now. next year however, i dont think orton will be starting here, especially if tebow develops, so i hope they franchise and trade him.

Good luck finding five posters on this board to agree with that :thumbsup:

DBroncos4life
05-31-2010, 10:21 PM
you realize MATT CASSEL got traded after being franchised...

How many times in NFL history has that happened?

strafen
05-31-2010, 10:24 PM
http://i607.photobucket.com/albums/tt156/tbattle3/0fa04b1befdc5cd3d02a6150d03f36f1.gif

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75465

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75855That's too funny! :rofl:

tsiguy96
05-31-2010, 10:31 PM
How many times in NFL history has that happened?

just saying, recent history shows that it can. its not often a situation like that arises. dont want to just let a good starting QB walk for nothing.

DBroncos4life
05-31-2010, 10:36 PM
just saying, recent history shows that it can. its not often a situation like that arises. dont want to just let a good starting QB walk for nothing.

They traded for Quinn and drafted Tebow in the first round. Any thoughts of keeping Orton around went out the door. No one is going to take him off our hands if we tag him at 14 million dollars for next season. They would let him eat up our cap space even more so after they saw Cassel flounder.

tsiguy96
05-31-2010, 10:38 PM
They traded for Quinn and drafted Tebow in the first round. Any thoughts of keeping Orton around went out the door. No one is going to take him off our hands if we tag him at 14 million dollars for next season. They would let him eat up our cap space even more so after they saw Cassel flounder.

theres no chance we actually keep orton to compete, but to just let him walk seems silly to me, and if its going to be impossible to get anything for him next year, doesnt it make the most sense to trade him this year? thats contingent on quinn being able to play at the same level as orton, which is highly in question.

tsiguy96
05-31-2010, 10:39 PM
Good luck finding five posters on this board to agree with that :thumbsup:

should i start pulling your "mcdaniels destroyed this team" comments back up? you cried that for a very long time, until you know, you were flat out wrong.

Jerry Curl
05-31-2010, 10:57 PM
How many times in NFL history has that happened?

It's not like the franchise tag has a long history to look at it like that.

Mogulseeker
05-31-2010, 11:15 PM
who can't be successful with good defense, special teams and running game?



Marty Schottenheimer

DBroncos4life
06-01-2010, 12:18 AM
should i start pulling your "mcdaniels destroyed this team" comments back up? you cried that for a very long time, until you know, you were flat out wrong.

go for it. LOL

watermock
06-01-2010, 01:18 AM
should i start pulling your "mcdaniels destroyed this team" comments back up? you cried that for a very long time, until you know, you were flat out wrong.

How so?

We lost 3 coaches, Our QB, replaced by 4, our 3 time 100 catch WR, our top OLB draft choice didn't have a sack and our trade for Smith was such a bust we got Ty Law.

That is before the pile of crap we managed this year, despite multiple choices.

Who is going to be the playmaker his year?

Huh?

Doom? Moreno?Champ?

Orton? Ha!

Ayers?

watermock
06-01-2010, 01:23 AM
shiat, you think Champ is lookiking for a new contract?

14 million is a joke.

fontaine
06-01-2010, 04:47 AM
So if I understand correctly...

Orton is limited as a QB, but he's a really nice guy.

Wow, we are really lowering the bar for QB play.

No you don't understand. The comparison is being made between Quinn and Orton.

Hamrob
06-01-2010, 07:02 AM
Quinn will have to play lights out to get the job. Orton is in his 2nd year and knows the ins and outs of the playcalls at this point. Quinn may be learning quickly, but he'll still have to think about things when the bullets are flying.

We'll see. It should be fun.

At the end of the day...our QB situation should be better than last year...so, at least we will have improved.

RhymesayersDU
06-01-2010, 07:28 AM
No you don't understand. The comparison is being made between Quinn and Orton.

Even so, it seems like the highest praise we can give the guy is that he's acted "with class." Which is true. But does not a good QB make.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
06-01-2010, 07:31 AM
Even so, it seems like the highest praise we can give the guy is that he's acted "with class." Which is true. But does not a good QB make.

That's not quite right. The highest praise we can give him is that he came into a new system, a new situation, with all new teammates, and played pretty damn well. 2:1 TD/INT ratio is pretty good, man.
On top of that, he's been nothing but class since he got here.

jhns
06-01-2010, 07:35 AM
The highest praise we can give him is that he came into a new system, a new situation, with all new teammates, and played pretty damn well.

Well enough that his coach spent a lot of resources looking for a replacement.

jhns
06-01-2010, 07:56 AM
should i start pulling your "mcdaniels destroyed this team" comments back up? you cried that for a very long time, until you know, you were flat out wrong.

Flat out wrong? McDaniels has never had a winning season yet. I would say his success is still up in the air.

Also, we won't get anything for Orton. You guys just don't know good QB play. It is kind of funny how some of you try convincing yourselves that Orton actually played well. McDaniels doesn't seem to agree.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
06-01-2010, 07:59 AM
Well enough that his coach spent a lot of resources looking for a replacement.

Competition/Replacement. Long-term answer/replacement.

It's all about how you choose to view the situation, and we all know how you choose to view the situation.

jhns
06-01-2010, 08:04 AM
Competition/Replacement. Long-term answer/replacement.

It's all about how you choose to view the situation, and we all know how you choose to view the situation.

Sure, he drafted a first round QB because we had good QB play. When I see a young QB doing well, I always think the team needs to draft his replacement.

Good stuff.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
06-01-2010, 08:07 AM
Sure, he drafted a first round QB because we had good QB play. When I see a young QB doing well, I always think the team needs to draft his replacement.

Good stuff.

Long term. Long term is the operative phrase. I know you're very short-sighted, but unless you think Tebow is going to start this year -- and I don't -- he was drafting Orton's long-term replacement, not his immediate replacement.

But you know more than everyone here. I always forget that.

jhns
06-01-2010, 08:11 AM
Long term. Long term is the operative phrase. I know you're very short-sighted, but unless you think Tebow is going to start this year -- and I don't -- he was drafting Orton's long-term replacement, not his immediate replacement.

But you know more than everyone here. I always forget that.

So the fact that we couldn't replace Orton right now means something different? Who exactly did we have a chance to draft that could play right away?

Again, why are we looking for replacements, long or short term, if this young QB is playing so well for us?

I would say I do know more about QB play than anyone claiming Orton played good. McDaniels agrees with me.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
06-01-2010, 08:18 AM
So the fact that we couldn't replace Orton right now means something different? Who exactly did we have a chance to draft that could play right away?

Again, why are we looking for replacements, long or short term, if this young QB is playing so well for us?

I would say I do know more about QB play than anyone claiming Orton played good. McDaniels agrees with me.

I'm sure you would say that. You're a cocky little **** who injects opinion over facts. But the FACTS show that Orton was a top-15 quarterback last year. That's playing pretty well. Period.

If McDaniels agrees with you, why is Orton still the starter?

TheReverend
06-01-2010, 08:23 AM
I'm sure you would say that. You're a cocky little **** who injects opinion over facts. But the FACTS show that Orton was a top-15 quarterback last year. That's playing pretty well. Period.

If McDaniels agrees with you, why is Orton still the starter?

While you have a point, he also DOES have a point and you know it.

If Orton was a "top 15" QB last year in his first year in the system, we can all expect him to play better as he gets more comfortable in the system this year and the next... and he's a young player, especially at a position with the most longevity in the NFL by far. Yet QB WAS a priority this off-season because he's way more limited than people are admitting and his game last season was way more flawed than people are admitting.

jhns
06-01-2010, 08:25 AM
If McDaniels agrees with you, why is Orton still the starter?

Maybe because he stuck himself with Orton and the only QBs to come out this year aren't close to being ready to play? Again, who do you suggest we could have replaced him with now if we wanted to?

No really, I always think teams with young QBs playing good should use first round picks on other QBs. Especially complete teams like this that wouldn't be able to use those significant resources elsewhere. I'm real sure he used a first round pick just to get a little competition.

tsiguy96
06-01-2010, 08:26 AM
While you have a point, he also DOES have a point and you know it.

If Orton was a "top 15" QB last year in his first year in the system, we can all expect him to play better as he gets more comfortable in the system this year and the next... and he's a young player, especially at a position with the most longevity in the NFL by far. Yet QB WAS a priority this off-season because he's way more limited than people are admitting and his game last season was way more flawed than people are admitting.

has game last year wasnt FLAWED, but like you said, limited. he played great within the confines of the system and what was asked upon him, and hes a better starter than many QBs in this league, especially due to leadership, just isten to what his teammates say about him.

QB was a priority, but i think finding a long term replacement and backup to the QB position was the priority, not replacing orton this year.

Paladin
06-01-2010, 08:40 AM
This message is hidden because jhns is on your ignore list (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/profile.php?do=ignorelist).

Because he's a "cocky little **** who injects opinion over facts".

jhns
06-01-2010, 08:47 AM
This message is hidden because jhns is on your ignore list (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/profile.php?do=ignorelist).

Because he's a "cocky little **** who injects opinion over facts".

Don't look now but your vagina is showing.

Tombstone RJ
06-01-2010, 09:16 AM
Flat out wrong? McDaniels has never had a winning season yet. I would say his success is still up in the air.

Also, we won't get anything for Orton. You guys just don't know good QB play. It is kind of funny how some of you try convincing yourselves that Orton actually played well. McDaniels doesn't seem to agree.

Oh wise one, please tell us about good QB play. I mean, break it down son.

jhns
06-01-2010, 09:19 AM
Oh wise one, please tell us about good QB play. I mean, break it down son.

No.

Tombstone RJ
06-01-2010, 09:21 AM
No.

Aw, why not? You are the expert, right?

jhns
06-01-2010, 09:33 AM
You are the expert

You said it.

Tombstone RJ
06-01-2010, 09:43 AM
You said it.

Yes, yes I did. Based, of course, on your post telling us we "just don't know good QB play."

So tell us about "good QB play" and be very specific.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
06-01-2010, 09:49 AM
While you have a point, he also DOES have a point and you know it.

If Orton was a "top 15" QB last year in his first year in the system, we can all expect him to play better as he gets more comfortable in the system this year and the next... and he's a young player, especially at a position with the most longevity in the NFL by far. Yet QB WAS a priority this off-season because he's way more limited than people are admitting and his game last season was way more flawed than people are admitting.

He does have a point, but it's the wrong point. I think McDaniels is looking for the best long-term solution, and is hedging his bets by drafting Tebow and trading for Quinn. If it was as cut and dry as "McD doesn't want Orton here," Orton would have been moved or cut. That's not what happened.

The smart teams know that QB is a premium position, so having more than one clear-cut starting-quality QB is imperative to success. If Flacco goes down in Baltimore, they are in deep ****. If Hasselbeck goes down in Seattle, they are in deep ****. Does Carroll have zero faith in Hasselbeck? He did go out and trade some picks to get a third stringer from San Diego... He must want that guy to start. /rolleyes

I honestly believe that McDaniels wants an embarrassment of riches at that position on this team. Starting-caliber guys in every slot on the depth chart. He's got that now with Quinn and Orton. He might have it with Tebow too as the year progresses. Or he may dangle Orton to a team that loses a starter in camp. Who knows?

Either way, the moves this off-season strike me more as being prepared for anything than they do liking or disliking Orton.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
06-01-2010, 09:50 AM
Yes, yes I did. Based, of course, on your post telling us we "just don't know good QB play."

So tell us about "good QB play" and be very specific.

This should be interesting. Get ready to google his answer; I'd guess he'll just pull it from a website somewhere.

jhns
06-01-2010, 10:02 AM
Yes, yes I did. Based, of course, on your post telling us we "just don't know good QB play."

So tell us about "good QB play" and be very specific.

Again, my answer is no. That is not a well thought out response. Do you want me to break down what the perfect QB is or what? There are a million variables that can make different QBs have good play by doing it a completely different way than other QBs that play good. Different upsides and what not. So am I supposed to go through all of the good QBs and break down why they are good or what?

jhns
06-01-2010, 10:04 AM
This should be interesting. Get ready to google his answer; I'd guess he'll just pull it from a website somewhere.

Nah, a website that answers that is about as dumb as you.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
06-01-2010, 10:09 AM
Again, my answer is no. That is not a well thought out response. Do you want me to break down what the perfect QB is or what? There are a million variables that can make different QBs have good play by doing it a completely different way than other QBs that play good. Different upsides and what not. So am I supposed to go through all of the good QBs and break down why they are good or what?

So we're just supposed to take your word for it that you know what good QB play looks like? We're just supposed to trust you... is that right?

:rofl:

jhns
06-01-2010, 10:12 AM
So we're just supposed to take your word for it that you know what good QB play looks like? We're just supposed to trust you... is that right?

:rofl:

It is smarter than saying I need to break down the one specific way you can play good at the QB position.

tsiguy96
06-01-2010, 10:13 AM
So we're just supposed to take your word for it that you know what good QB play looks like? We're just supposed to trust you... is that right?

:rofl:

its incredible, isnt it? i sometimes wonder if hes just trying to get a response by saying stupid stuff.

jhns
06-01-2010, 10:15 AM
its incredible, isnt it? i sometimes wonder if hes just trying to get a response by saying stupid stuff.

I was looking for this right here. Way to get played.

Dagmar
06-01-2010, 10:29 AM
I was looking for this right here. Way to get played.

So you went on to the internet, posted multiple times on a football forum just to illicit that above response which wasn't exactly funny or witty?

And this makes you a "winner"?

Wow.

jhns
06-01-2010, 10:37 AM
So you went on to the internet, posted multiple times on a football forum just to illicit that above response which wasn't exactly funny or witty?

And this makes you a "winner"?

Wow.

A "winner"? Where did that come from?

Anyways, no I didn't really just post for that response. I just enjoy laughing at stupidity with sarcasm. Guys like TSI always cry that others are trolling or just trying to get responses. They then "feed the trolls" and provide those responses. He will then cry later that I am ruining the board and blah blah blah, need banned, blah.... It doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
06-01-2010, 10:42 AM
So you went on to the internet, posted multiple times on a football forum just to illicit that above response which wasn't exactly funny or witty?

And this makes you a "winner"?

Wow.

He lives in an alternate reality. I'd say it's about time he go on my block list again.

Thought he'd make it at least a day before I put him back. Oh well.

Cito Pelon
06-01-2010, 10:53 AM
Quinn will really have to shine and Orton really stink it up for Quinn to start opening day. Both will have to happen.

Why? Because Quinn will have to win over the vets as well as McD.

I really think it's just plain knuckleheaded to think Quinn is gonna start opening day, Orton will be traded, all that garbage.

It's certainly gonna be an interesting competition, but I think the vets like their chances with Orton, and McD is not gonna mess around with that. Not to mention McD has already said Orton is the starter.

I can understand some people want to hook onto the Quinn bandwagon since they're heavily invested on the Orton sucks bandwagon, but I don't think it's very realistic.

So we'll see what happens. Gonna be very interesting to see who's the knucklehead and who isn't.

HAT
06-01-2010, 10:56 AM
Again, why are we looking for replacements, long or short term, if this young QB is playing so well for us?


Because McD is going to do what he does best. Maximize trade value. Orton will be in the top 10 QB rankings this year based on traditional measurables.

Tag & trade is coming. Some team, somewhere will be thinking..."Wow, look at the progress KO made in years 4 & 5...We can win with this guy"

jhns
06-01-2010, 11:01 AM
He lives in an alternate reality. I'd say it's about time he go on my block list again.

Thought he'd make it at least a day before I put him back. Oh well.

Why do you take me off in the first place? Every other week I get to read your crying that I need to be on ignore. Then you put it in every thread that everyone should ignore me and cry about it a bunch more. Then you take me off the list to repeat the cycle. I would say you are clearly the dumb one in this situation.

Cito Pelon
06-01-2010, 11:06 AM
Even so, it seems like the highest praise we can give the guy is that he's acted "with class." Which is true. But does not a good QB make.

Ah, c'mon, jebus. That's the highest praise YOU can come up with.

jhns
06-01-2010, 11:13 AM
Because McD is going to do what he does best. Maximize trade value. Orton will be in the top 10 QB rankings this year based on traditional measurables.

Tag & trade is coming. Some team, somewhere will be thinking..."Wow, look at the progress KO made in years 4 & 5...We can win with this guy"

So your theory is Orton is good but McDaniels likes to trade QBs? That isn't exactly a good thing for this team.

Cito Pelon
06-01-2010, 11:27 AM
While you have a point, he also DOES have a point and you know it.

If Orton was a "top 15" QB last year in his first year in the system, we can all expect him to play better as he gets more comfortable in the system this year and the next... and he's a young player, especially at a position with the most longevity in the NFL by far. Yet QB WAS a priority this off-season because he's way more limited than people are admitting and his game last season was way more flawed than people are admitting.

Dude's not awesome, but on the other hand, Rich Gannon and Trent Dilfer have AFC Championship rings as well as Peyton Manning. Matter of fact, the awesome Peyton Manning has only two AFC Championship rings. Chris Chandler has an NFC Championship ring. Kerry Collins has an NFC Championship ring. Phillip Rivers has no Conference Championship rings, Dan Fouts has no Conference Championship rings, Rex Grossman has an NFC Championship ring.

Relax, don't get all into elite this and that jibba-jabba.

TheReverend
06-01-2010, 11:39 AM
Dude's not awesome, but on the other hand, Rich Gannon and Trent Dilfer have AFC Championship rings as well as Peyton Manning. Matter of fact, the awesome Peyton Manning has only two AFC Championship rings. Chris Chandler has an NFC Championship ring. Kerry Collins has an NFC Championship ring. Phillip Rivers has no Conference Championship rings, Dan Fouts has no Conference Championship rings, Rex Grossman has an NFC Championship ring.

Relax, don't get all into elite this and that jibba-jabba.

There's a big difference towards being a large contributor towards that team success and being along for the ride.

I'll take a player over 10 game managers every day of the week.

ScottXray
06-01-2010, 11:43 AM
exactly

I don't think for a second that Denver is going to limit play if Quinn is the clear starter

winning will just equal more $ for the team anyhow, thinking that they would purposely not let someone play because of an incentive is just stupid

If Quinn is the better player than by all means start him. However if its a matter of 50% Quinn, 50% Orton then 2 things come into play.

1. Orton has been a team player and everything equal deserves to continue. Only being OUTplayed should be a reason to lose your job.

2. Being equal means that the financial aspect of Quinns contract IS a factor.
I figure Quinn will definitely start 1-2 games due to injury to Orton along the way this year. Should Quinn actually take > 60 or 70% of the snaps then his contract escalates. Unless he is playing really well then Orton will probably get the benefit of the doubt as to starting at least half the starts, and bad play by Quinn at any point would cement Ortons status. So even if Quinn wins the start position during camp, a few bad games would result in his being replaced by Orton.
QB controversies are never really good for teams, as consistent play is important too.

dsmoot
06-01-2010, 11:45 AM
Khan...

You set a statement where he's under appreciated, and then place caveats for success that are ridiculous. You actually said, "If every other phase of the game is successful, he can be sufficient". I mean... jesus christ... who can't be a successful QB with good defense, special teams and running game?

Edit: Hell, in that scenario, you don't even really need a QB


It got Terry Bradshaw in the HOF

Kaylore
06-01-2010, 11:48 AM
Khan...

You set a statement where he's under appreciated, and then place caveats for success that are ridiculous. You actually said, "If every other phase of the game is successful, he can be sufficient". I mean... jesus christ... who can't be a successful QB with good defense, special teams and running game?

Edit: Hell, in that scenario, you don't even really need a QB

You forgot a solid offensive line. Heck, I even like my chances as a QB with that kind of support around me!

Maybe I wasn't a clear. I'm not saying all the other areas need to be dominant. I'm saying with improvement in the the three he can win. I don't think we need the 85 bears defense, or their 2008 special teams to win with Orton. I think with a top ten rushing attack (not necessarily top 5), top 15 special teams and top ten defense, we could win a SB with Orton as our starting QB. That's not an incredibly tall order.

And I don't believe "every" QB could win under those conditions. I think the top third of all QB's in the league probably could could and I believe that Orton is (granted toward the bottom) in that top third. However I don't think the rest of the QB's in the league that would be enough. There would have to be more dominance from one of those areas to pull them along.

Pseudofool
06-01-2010, 11:59 AM
The fact that Orton isn't mistake prone is a boon in our system. So yes, getting better production from other phases of play, gives Orton a better chance to win. Orton won't lose games, but he probably won't be the precipitous player that leads to a win either. There will be games where some of our other units play poorly or get out-schemed, and we'll certainly yearn for a QB who has a skill base (arm to stretch the field, pocket mobility, "it" factor) to make plays in unideal conditions.

Tombstone RJ
06-01-2010, 12:17 PM
Again, my answer is no. That is not a well thought out response. Do you want me to break down what the perfect QB is or what? There are a million variables that can make different QBs have good play by doing it a completely different way than other QBs that play good. Different upsides and what not. So am I supposed to go through all of the good QBs and break down why they are good or what?

You seem so knowledgable on what makes a good QB I just thought you'd share that knowledge with the rest of us. But, it appears you have no real knowledge, just an opinion. Your opinion is that we "don't know good QB play" and that you do. However, you can't tell us what "good QB play" involves.

I'm not asking you to "break down what the perfect QBs is...." I'm not asking you "to go through all of the good QBs and break down why they are good...." I'm simply asking you what constitutes "good QB play" because you seem to know while the rest of us don't.

So again, what makes for "good QB play" in the NFL? Please enlighten the rest of us with your indepth analysis. Please put your money where your mouth is. Your above answer is nothing more than a deflection.

jhns
06-01-2010, 12:30 PM
I'm not asking you to "break down what the perfect QBs is...." I'm not asking you "to go through all of the good QBs and break down why they are good...." I'm simply asking you what constitutes "good QB play" because you seem to know while the rest of us don't.



See, you still are giving a lame response. Does Manning play the same exact way Brady does? Does Brees play the exact same way as either of them? There is no one specific thing that makes for good QB play. There isn't even a specific list. It is different with every QB that has played good. I'm not real sure what you are asking for as you still aren't making it clear.

HAT
06-01-2010, 12:39 PM
So your theory is Orton is good but McDaniels likes to trade QBs? That isn't exactly a good thing for this team.

No....My 'theory', as we discussed in another thread is that Orton's market price after 2010 will be too much for McD & Company to swallow when Tebow is waiting in the wings.

That doesn't mean they think any less of him. Do you think the Braves thought Mark Teixeira sucked when they traded him to the Angels? Of course not.

Buy low, sell high.

Tombstone RJ
06-01-2010, 12:42 PM
See, you still are giving a lame response. Does Manning play the same exact way Brady does? Does Brees play the exact same way as either of them? There is no one specific thing that makes for good QB play. There isn't even a specific list. It is different with every QB that has played good. I'm not real sure what you are asking for as you still aren't making it clear.

There are people on this board who have put stats in front of you to show you that Orton had a respectable year. Combine that with the fact that it was Orton's first year in this system and the entire roster was/is in flux. Orton's winning record in the NFL is better than Cutler's yet you don't think he's a good QB. Also, you keep saying that anyone who defend's Orton "just don't know good QB play."

Correct me if I'm wrong but what I think your saying is that Orton is a bad QB even though the stats and his wins/losses as a starting NFL QB do not support your opinion. So, if Orton is a bad QB, what is a good QB? Again, I'm asking you to tell us what constitutes a "good QB" in the NFL. Please explain to the rest of us why Orton is not a good QB, and then please explain to us what constitutes a good QB. I'm eager to learn because I'm confused.

Cito Pelon
06-01-2010, 12:54 PM
There's a big difference towards being a large contributor towards that team success and being along for the ride.

I'll take a player over 10 game managers every day of the week.

Well, I'm not gonna bag on Orton. I admire his intestinal fortitude. Dude came into a bad situation and pulled the team together through sheer guts and will.

People talk about what a great year Marshall had. Jeez, who was throwing Marshall the ball? Orton is a guy that gets it done. It's fine with me if he gets it done a little bit better in 2010.

The bottom line is I have a hard time seeing Brady Quinn supplanting Orton in 2010, or your boy Tebow.

TheReverend
06-01-2010, 01:00 PM
Well, I'm not gonna bag on Orton. I admire his intestinal fortitude. Dude came into a bad situation and pulled the team together through sheer guts and will.

People talk about what a great year Marshall had. Jeez, who was throwing Marshall the ball? Orton is a guy that gets it done. It's fine with me if he gets it done a little bit better in 2010.

The bottom line is I have a hard time seeing Brady Quinn supplanting Orton in 2010, or your boy Tebow.

I'm really not "down" on Orton, but I'm not so sure he gets the credit for "pulling the team together". And how exactly are you quantifying guts and will?

He did enough to win the first six. And he played MAGNIFICENTLY against NE... all pro game, easily. Dallas and SD pt 1 were both good too. The rest he had very little to do with. And when the defense did start to collapse and the team needed him to make some plays... we went 2-8.

I do think he'll start the season, but I don't think he'll finish it (and I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't start the season).

Also (in bold)... never discount divine intervention

jhns
06-01-2010, 01:08 PM
There are people on this board who have put stats in front of you to show you that Orton had a respectable year. Combine that with the fact that it was Orton's first year in this system and the entire roster was/is in flux. Orton's winning record in the NFL is better than Cutler's yet you don't think he's a good QB. Also, you keep saying that anyone who defend's Orton "just don't know good QB play."

Correct me if I'm wrong but what I think your saying is that Orton is a bad QB even though the stats and his wins/losses as a starting NFL QB do not support your opinion. So, if Orton is a bad QB, what is a good QB? Again, I'm asking you to tell us what constitutes a "good QB" in the NFL. Please explain to the rest of us why Orton is not a good QB, and then please explain to us what constitutes a good QB. I'm eager to learn because I'm confused.

And again I will tell you that there are too many variables to just list what makes a good QB. That is unless you really are going to read the 50 page book I post in response to that. I know I wouldn't and it is why I'm not wasting my time with it.

As for what makes Orton not a good QB, that is something that can actually be broken down easily. He has no playmaking ability. He goes down when defenders barely swipe his shoulder as they are pushed by him by our linemen. He has no pocket awareness and no ability to manipulate a pocket. He is an inaccurate passer that completely falls apart if there is any pressure given up. These are the main reasons he is not a good QB.

I can answer you with a very general statement on what separates a good QB from a guy like Orton. Good QBs make guys around them better. They don't get one of the best young receivers to come out and make them invisible even when they are starting all year. They don't get one of the best pass protecting o-lines in the NFL and make them look like one of the worst lines in the NFL (and yes, they all looked worse well before any injuries).

Tombstone RJ
06-01-2010, 02:28 PM
And again I will tell you that there are too many variables to just list what makes a good QB. That is unless you really are going to read the 50 page book I post in response to that. I know I wouldn't and it is why I'm not wasting my time with it.

So, you have no answer.

As for what makes Orton not a good QB, that is something that can actually be broken down easily. He has no playmaking ability. He goes down when defenders barely swipe his shoulder as they are pushed by him by our linemen. He has no pocket awareness and no ability to manipulate a pocket. He is an inaccurate passer that completely falls apart if there is any pressure given up. These are the main reasons he is not a good QB.

Yet, he's a winner in the NFL, and has won more games than Cutler who is mobil, has a big arm but throws a lot of interceptions. Again, you're good at pointing out what you don't like about Orton but that doesn't change the fact that he's a winner. So again, this is just your opinion and nothing more. I'd have more respect for you if you just said "I don't like Orton and I don't know why."

I can answer you with a very general statement on what separates a good QB from a guy like Orton. Good QBs make guys around them better. They don't get one of the best young receivers to come out and make them invisible even when they are starting all year. They don't get one of the best pass protecting o-lines in the NFL and make them look like one of the worst lines in the NFL (and yes, they all looked worse well before any injuries).

If you're talking about Royal, how do you know Royal was not to blame for at least some of his invisibility? What if Royal ran the wrong routes? It's a well known fact that small WRs struggle in their second year because teams have film on them and can game plan for them. As for the oline, it was the running game that struggled, not the passing game. Yah, Orton got sacked but when every team in the NFL knows you can't run the ball and you don't have a mobil QB, they are gonna bring the house.

Flex Gunmetal
06-01-2010, 02:36 PM
jhns never knows what he is talking about. Just forget about rationalizing with him, it's a waste of time.

jhns
06-01-2010, 02:42 PM
So, you have no answer.



Yet, he's a winner in the NFL, and has won more games than Cutler who is mobil, has a big arm but throws a lot of interceptions. Again, you're good at pointing out what you don't like about Orton but that doesn't change the fact that he's a winner. So again, this is just your opinion and nothing more. I'd have more respect for you if you just said "I don't like Orton and I don't know why."



If you're talking about Royal, how do you know Royal was not to blame for at least some of his invisibility? What if Royal ran the wrong routes? It's a well known fact that small WRs struggle in their second year because teams have film on them and can game plan for them. As for the oline, it was the running game that struggled, not the passing game. Yah, Orton got sacked but when every team in the NFL knows you can't run the ball and you don't have a mobil QB, they are gonna bring the house.

1) Of course not, I actually know what I'm talking about. If you think there is an answer to that, let's hear it. I will then point out the QBs that are good and differ from what you say. It will be good for laughs.

2) This isn't a one man sport. Orton has only had a winning record when he had extremely good defenses and special teams. He sure didn't do any better than Cutler here and he had a WAY better defense and special teams when he got here. Good stuff though. These one man sport arguments show that you know what you are talking about. It is why greats like Elway and Manning have won 13 SBs each. The team just doesn't matter!

3) LOL... Sure, Royal had one of the best rookie seasons ever for a receiver. He got a very complex playbook down before his first camp. He was said to be one of the best route runners on the team. You are suggesting he just suddenly forgot how to play? Riiight.... Let's now talk about McDaniels. When did he start wanting to hurt his own team by starting guys that are running poor routes and playing bad? You need to think that one through a lot better.

Sure, the o-line didn't look any worse in pass protection. That is why we had to get so many new guys and that is why they gave up more sacks in a few games than they did the entire season before. All of these guys just suck, Orton is the man, nothing can be put on him!

jhns
06-01-2010, 02:54 PM
jhns never knows what he is talking about.

Sure I don't. McDaniels agrees with me and that is all I care about. He has already started the countdown to 0rtons departure.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
06-01-2010, 03:12 PM
jhns never knows what he is talking about. Just forget about rationalizing with him, it's a waste of time.

But HE says he DOES know what he's talking about, and HE says we should just believe him.

Beantown Bronco
06-01-2010, 03:17 PM
I can answer you with a very general statement on what separates a good QB from a guy like Orton. Good QBs make guys around them better.

Marshall had the best year of his career under Orton.
Gaffney had the best 2 game starting stretch of his career under Orton.

jhns
06-01-2010, 03:18 PM
But HE says he DOES know what he's talking about, and HE says we should just believe him.

No, you are way off. McDaniels says I know what I'm talking about. I just agree with him.

It is funny that you want to talk though. Your argument is that we traded picks for one QB and then drafted a first rounder because we wanted a backup. Funny stuff but it shows a lack of thinking.

I hear it all the time from the best coaches. The usual "We have a young QB that played good in his first year with the team. I think we need to spend significant resources on the QB position this offseason. You know, because we are happy with our QB play."

Kaylore
06-01-2010, 03:24 PM
1) Of course not, I actually know what I'm talking about.

2) This isn't a one man sport. Orton has only had a winning record when he had extremely good defenses and special teams. He sure didn't do any better than Cutler here and he had a WAY better defense and special teams when he got here.



This is funny because you completely show what a moronic idiot you are in one fell sweep.

Jhiz just said the Broncos have a better defense and special teams than the Bears.

So, so stupid.

jhns
06-01-2010, 03:24 PM
Marshall had the best year of his career under Orton.
Gaffney had the best 2 game starting stretch of his career under Orton.

Marshall had the same year as other years because he is a playmaker, unlike Orton. He doesn't need a good QB because he makes those around him(Orton) better.

As for Gaffney, he could have caught 2 balls and had the best 2 starts in a row for his career.

jhns
06-01-2010, 03:26 PM
This is funny because you completely show what a moronic idiot you are in one fell sweep.

Jhiz just said the Broncos have a better defense and special teams than the Bears.

So, so stupid.

Ummm, no I didn't.

The use of 5 year old insults is cute though. Has anyone ever told you, "Don't drive angry."?

Kaylore
06-01-2010, 03:29 PM
Ummm, no, I didn't.
um
He sure didn't do any better than Cutler here and he had a WAY better defense and special teams when he got here.

jhns
06-01-2010, 03:31 PM
um

Now point out where it says something about the Bears.

Kaylore
06-01-2010, 03:38 PM
Now point out where it says something about the Bears.

You said he had better special teams and defense when he got here! He left the best ST unit in football behind, and their defense was usually pretty good. That is not better. He went from good to bad. And mind you with a harder schedule and everyone learning a new system in all phases they matched Cutler's wins, who played easier teams and crappier defenses.

underrated29
06-01-2010, 03:40 PM
Damn I must be bored at work!!

I just read through every post on this worthless thread. It started out ok then it became a freaking Orton sucks vs Jhns thread mixed in with a dash of tebow.



Does talon69 still post here...thats more enjoyable to read.

jhns
06-01-2010, 03:45 PM
You said he had better special teams and defense when he got here!

Read the comparison in that sentence. It is Cutler here vs Orton here. I didn't say a word about what Chicago had in that. I agree, they had great special teams and a very good defense. I said so in that post. It is the reason I gave for Orton winning with them and not with us...

Dagmar
06-01-2010, 03:47 PM
Damn I must be bored at work!!

I just read through every post on this worthless thread. It started out ok then it became a freaking Orton sucks vs Jhns thread mixed in with a dash of tebow.



Does talon69 still post here...thats more enjoyable to read.

If you mean homophobescumbagevildragsterwank69 he is now homophobescumbagevilstrafenwank now.

HAT
06-01-2010, 04:06 PM
If you mean homophobescumbagevildragsterwank69 he is now homophobescumbagevilstrafenwank now.

It's time to start referring to them interchangeably as 'draghns7'.

underrated29
06-01-2010, 04:11 PM
If you mean homophobescumbagevildragsterwank69 he is now homophobescumbagevilstrafenwank now.



aha
thestrafen

I knew it started with an S though.

Cito Pelon
06-01-2010, 04:29 PM
I'm really not "down" on Orton, but I'm not so sure he gets the credit for "pulling the team together". And how exactly are you quantifying guts and will?

He did enough to win the first six. And he played MAGNIFICENTLY against NE... all pro game, easily. Dallas and SD pt 1 were both good too. The rest he had very little to do with. And when the defense did start to collapse and the team needed him to make some plays... we went 2-8.

I do think he'll start the season, but I don't think he'll finish it (and I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't start the season).

Also (in bold)... never discount divine intervention

Orton needed the rest of the team to make some plays down the stretch, and the rest of the team did not do so. It was pretty sad, actually. The team was pretty much Orton and Marshall down the stretch. That was pretty much it, Orton and Marshall. Champ did nothing, DJ did nothing, Elvis tried like hell, but he was the only front seven guy that made a mark.

It's kind of silly for you to say Orton was supposed to magically produce victories when the D down the stretch was giving up an avg of 149 yds/gm rushing.

Cito Pelon
06-01-2010, 04:35 PM
Marshall had the best year of his career under Orton.
Gaffney had the best 2 game starting stretch of his career under Orton.

Gotta rep that for truth. Brandon Marshall's best year. Orton showcased him.

SouthStndJunkie
06-01-2010, 04:45 PM
Yet, he's a winner in the NFL, and has won more games than Cutler who is mobil, has a big arm but throws a lot of interceptions. Again, you're good at pointing out what you don't like about Orton but that doesn't change the fact that he's a winner. So again, this is just your opinion and nothing more. I'd have more respect for you if you just said "I don't like Orton and I don't know why."

I'm not really in the mood to jump in the middle of an argument....but Rex Grossman is 19-12 as a starter and has won games at a 61% clip...all of them with the Bears. Plus, Rexasaurus won a few playoff games and started a Super Bowl with the Bears.

Orton is 29-19 as a starter....and has won games at a 60.4% clip, most of those with the Bears. Orton has not won any playoff games.

Orton is basically a .500 QB with the Broncos and has essentially the same won/loss percentage with the Bears as Rex Grossman did.

Kyle Orton is a limited QB who has already hit his ceiling in terms of potential. The Broncos would not have drafted their QB of the future if they thought Kyle Orton had all the skills to be a franchise QB.

Cito Pelon
06-01-2010, 05:04 PM
I'm not really in the mood to jump in the middle of an argument....but Rex Grossman is 19-12 as a starter and has won games at a 61% clip...all of them with the Bears. Plus, Rexasaurus won a few playoff games and started a Super Bowl with the Bears.

Orton is 29-19 as a starter....and has won games at a 60.4% clip, most of those with the Bears. Orton has not won any playoff games.

Orton is basically a .500 QB with the Broncos and has essentially the same won/loss percentage with the Bears as Rex Grossman did.

Kyle Orton is a limited QB who has already hit his ceiling in terms of potential. The Broncos would not have drafted their QB of the future if they thought Kyle Orton had all the skills to be a franchise QB.

Well, I'm thinking that argument has some flaws. Not big, egregious flaws but, notable flaws.

Flaw one, Orton moved to the Broncos and produced a respectable season despite a dislocated finger. Rexasauras hasn't started since Chicago, is certainly relegated to backup status. Orton has not been relegated to backup status.

Flaw two - 29 wins is bigtime more than 19 wins in the NFL. That's a whole season more wins for Orton over the Rex.

TheReverend
06-01-2010, 05:05 PM
Orton needed the rest of the team to make some plays down the stretch, and the rest of the team did not do so. It was pretty sad, actually. The team was pretty much Orton and Marshall down the stretch. That was pretty much it, Orton and Marshall. Champ did nothing, DJ did nothing, Elvis tried like hell, but he was the only front seven guy that made a mark.

It's kind of silly for you to say Orton was supposed to magically produce victories when the D down the stretch was giving up an avg of 149 yds/gm rushing.

Jay did it the year before. Just sayin

TheElusiveKyleOrton
06-01-2010, 05:10 PM
Jay did it the year before. Just sayin

He did? He won games down the stretch? When we needed one win out of three games, and he went 0-3?

TheReverend
06-01-2010, 05:15 PM
He did? He won games down the stretch? When we needed one win out of three games, and he went 0-3?

Cherry picking. Nice try.

Tombstone RJ
06-01-2010, 05:18 PM
I'm not really in the mood to jump in the middle of an argument....but Rex Grossman is 19-12 as a starter and has won games at a 61% clip...all of them with the Bears. Plus, Rexasaurus won a few playoff games and started a Super Bowl with the Bears.

Orton is 29-19 as a starter....and has won games at a 60.4% clip, most of those with the Bears. Orton has not won any playoff games.

Orton is basically a .500 QB with the Broncos and has essentially the same won/loss percentage with the Bears as Rex Grossman did.

Kyle Orton is a limited QB who has already hit his ceiling in terms of potential. The Broncos would not have drafted their QB of the future if they thought Kyle Orton had all the skills to be a franchise QB.

That's just gross man... Yep, Orton has limits. We shall see soon enough if McD can work his magic with Orton and turn him into a playoff caliber QB. Grossman had one or two good years and then flamed out. That being said, the year the Bears went to the SB they had a great defense.

I agree with jhns that Orton is probably a short timer with the Broncos. What I don't agree with is his insistence that he sucks donky ballz. He's got limits but he's not a "bad" QB per say. He's just not super flashy either.

TheReverend
06-01-2010, 05:20 PM
That's just gross man... Yep, Orton has limits. We shall see soon enough if McD can work his magic with Orton and turn him into a playoff caliber QB. Grossman had one or two good years and then flamed out. That being said, the year the Bears went to the SB they had a great defense.

I agree with jhns that Orton is probably a short timer with the Broncos. What I don't agree with is his insistence that he sucks donky ballz. He's got limits but he's not a "bad" QB per say. He's just not super flashy either.

I think that credit lies way more with Josh than it does with Kyle.

Tombstone RJ
06-01-2010, 05:20 PM
Cherry picking. Nice try.

One win in three games and the Broncos couldn't get it done. That's not so much cherry picking as it is a Bronco's fan scratching his head saying "why?".

Cito Pelon
06-01-2010, 05:25 PM
Jay did it the year before. Just sayin

Marshall almost doubled his career TD total playing with Orton for only one year.

TheReverend
06-01-2010, 05:28 PM
One win in three games and the Broncos couldn't get it done. That's not so much cherry picking as it is a Bronco's fan scratching his head saying "why?".

No, it's someone cherry picking or illiterate. Are you going to join him on the "I can't read in context" train?

Orton needed the rest of the team to make some plays down the stretch, and the rest of the team did not do so. It was pretty sad, actually. The team was pretty much Orton and Marshall down the stretch. That was pretty much it, Orton and Marshall. Champ did nothing, DJ did nothing, Elvis tried like hell, but he was the only front seven guy that made a mark.

It's kind of silly for you to say Orton was supposed to magically produce victories when the D down the stretch was giving up an avg of 149 yds/gm rushing.

Everything in bold is an INSANELY accurate depiction of the 2008 Denver defense.

2009 Broncos in those circumstances that Cito mentioned won 20%

2008 Broncos in those circumstances that Cito mentioned won 50%

TheReverend
06-01-2010, 05:31 PM
Marshall almost doubled his career TD total playing with Orton for only one year.

Awesome?

We now judge success on Brandon Marshall's stats?

Paladin
06-01-2010, 05:55 PM
Yeah, that was reading almost Mock-like.....

Cito Pelon
06-01-2010, 06:05 PM
Yeah, that was reading almost Mock-like.....

I hung you out to dry a little bit since I deleted my post replying to Rev just above this one . . .

TheReverend
06-01-2010, 06:07 PM
I hung you out to dry a little bit since I deleted my post replying to Rev just above this one . . .

Who cares what the french man says. What was YOUR reply?

Cito Pelon
06-01-2010, 06:19 PM
Who cares what the french man says. What was YOUR reply?

It was kind of nasty and we don't need to get into it.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
06-01-2010, 06:25 PM
Cherry picking. Nice try.

You didn't specify, perhaps. The post you quoted said this:
It's kind of silly for you to say Orton was supposed to magically produce victories when the D down the stretch was giving up an avg of 149 yds/gm rushing.

Then you said this:
Jay did it the year before. Just sayin

Cherry picking? Not really.

TheReverend
06-01-2010, 06:29 PM
Since you figure it's something to argue about, it was really nasty, Nancy.

Actually, it wasn't that bad, but it was something I knew would get under you skin, and would probably lead to further argumentation.

Something fairly innocuous, nothing to get your panties in a wad, nancy.

I'm not. I'm just wondering if you're following your own train of thought...

YOU set this standard for excusing Orton down the 2-8 stretch:

"Champ did nothing, DJ did nothing, Elvis tried like hell, but he was the only front seven guy that made a mark.

It's kind of silly for you to say Orton was supposed to magically produce victories when the D down the stretch was giving up an avg of 149 yds/gm rushing."

When in reality, even in that 2-8 stretch, the defense was still better than 2008's defense the entire year.

For example:

Elvis in the 2-8 stretch had .7 sacks per game.
Elvis in 2008 had .3 sacks per game.

Champ picked off a ball .2 times per game down the 2-8 stretch and .7 passes defensed per game.
Champ was hurt half the 2008 season and when in the game wasn't much better with an interception .1 times per game and .3 passes defensed per game.

Then you cite the run defense and that we surrendered 149 ypg down the 2-8 stretch.
In 2008 we gave up 146 yards per game all season long.

Which is why I made the initial point... in those circumstances, Jay could win games.

Still not sure what point you were trying to make with Marshall increasing his TD number... what that has to do with anything other than his shiny new contract in Miami is beyond me.

TheReverend
06-01-2010, 06:30 PM
You didn't specify, perhaps. The post you quoted said this:
It's kind of silly for you to say Orton was supposed to magically produce victories when the D down the stretch was giving up an avg of 149 yds/gm rushing.

Then you said this:
Jay did it the year before. Just sayin

Cherry picking? Not really.

See above post.

Jay did do it the year before. Yes, he lost the last three, that has little to do with the discussion, but if you'd like, we can talk about that.

tsiguy96
06-01-2010, 06:40 PM
See above post.

Jay did do it the year before. Yes, he lost the last three, that has little to do with the discussion, but if you'd like, we can talk about that.

you assume jay had nothing to do with the defenses failures. go watch his CHI/SF game this year and see how badly he lost that game for them.

TheReverend
06-01-2010, 06:44 PM
you assume jay had nothing to do with the defenses failures. go watch his CHI/SF game this year and see how badly he lost that game for them.

Oh he had some bad games. I'm definitely not saying he's flawless (he's no Tebow). He's terrible at reading linebackers... probably 90% of the interceptions that are his fault come from hitting linebackers in their drops.

Regardless, that defense was an absolute mess, and no he wasn't responsible for their failure. In fact, they were largely responsible for his failure to put more points on the board.

Did you know that despite how badly people here knock his redzone ability, he actually was 17 TDs to 4 INTs in 2008 in the redzone? All 4 are inexcusable... but not nearly as bad people made it out to be.

pdaddy
06-01-2010, 06:56 PM
I'm not. I'm just wondering if you're following your own train of thought...

YOU set this standard for excusing Orton down the 2-8 stretch:

"Champ did nothing, DJ did nothing, Elvis tried like hell, but he was the only front seven guy that made a mark.

It's kind of silly for you to say Orton was supposed to magically produce victories when the D down the stretch was giving up an avg of 149 yds/gm rushing."

When in reality, even in that 2-8 stretch, the defense was still better than 2008's defense the entire year.

For example:

Elvis in the 2-8 stretch had .7 sacks per game.
Elvis in 2008 had .3 sacks per game.

Champ picked off a ball .2 times per game down the 2-8 stretch and .7 passes defensed per game.
Champ was hurt half the 2008 season and when in the game wasn't much better with an interception .1 times per game and .3 passes defensed per game.

Then you cite the run defense and that we surrendered 149 ypg down the 2-8 stretch.
In 2008 we gave up 146 yards per game all season long.

Which is why I made the initial point... in those circumstances, Jay could win games.

Still not sure what point you were trying to make with Marshall increasing his TD number... what that has to do with anything other than his shiny new contract in Miami is beyond me.

Say wha?!! In the 8 games that the Broncos won in 2008, opponents rushed for an average of 119 yards per game. In games where the 2008 Broncos' opponents rushed for over 149 yards per game, the Broncos were 2-5. They didn't give up 146 yards per game all season long in 2008. When they did, they were generally losing (2-6 if 146 ypg is your threshold).

I personally think both Orton and Cutler sucked down the stretch in those years. Compare each guy's numbers from the first 6 games of those Broncos seasons to the last 6 games. Dramatic drop off. In Cutler's case, people always point to the lack of running game with all the injuries in 2008, but running stats from last 6 games of 2008 were pretty damn close to running game states from first 6 games. In Orton's case, the guy just seems too damn tentative all the time.

Cito Pelon
06-01-2010, 06:56 PM
I'm not. I'm just wondering if you're following your own train of thought...

YOU set this standard for excusing Orton down the 2-8 stretch:

"Champ did nothing, DJ did nothing, Elvis tried like hell, but he was the only front seven guy that made a mark.

It's kind of silly for you to say Orton was supposed to magically produce victories when the D down the stretch was giving up an avg of 149 yds/gm rushing."

When in reality, even in that 2-8 stretch, the defense was still better than 2008's defense the entire year.

For example:

Elvis in the 2-8 stretch had .7 sacks per game.
Elvis in 2008 had .3 sacks per game.

Champ picked off a ball .2 times per game down the 2-8 stretch and .7 passes defensed per game.
Champ was hurt half the 2008 season and when in the game wasn't much better with an interception .1 times per game and .3 passes defensed per game.

Then you cite the run defense and that we surrendered 149 ypg down the 2-8 stretch.
In 2008 we gave up 146 yards per game all season long.

Which is why I made the initial point... in those circumstances, Jay could win games.

Still not sure what point you were trying to make with Marshall increasing his TD number... what that has to do with anything other than his shiny new contract in Miami is beyond me.

Well, first I'm gonna apologize to Paladin for hanging him out to dry by deleting the post he replied to.

Second, Rev, wow, you made a good comeback from your Mock-like couple of posts earlier. That's pretty studly. You have resilience.

TheReverend
06-01-2010, 06:58 PM
Well, first I'm gonna apologize to Paladin for hanging him out to dry by deleting the post he replied to.

Second, Rev, wow, you made a good comeback from your Mock-like couple of posts earlier. That's pretty studly. You have resilience.

What was the "Mock-like" post?

Or did you just not read the question marks and understand I was making fun of you?

gunns
06-01-2010, 06:59 PM
Orton needed the rest of the team to make some plays down the stretch, and the rest of the team did not do so. It was pretty sad, actually. The team was pretty much Orton and Marshall down the stretch. That was pretty much it, Orton and Marshall. Champ did nothing, DJ did nothing, Elvis tried like hell, but he was the only front seven guy that made a mark.

It's kind of silly for you to say Orton was supposed to magically produce victories when the D down the stretch was giving up an avg of 149 yds/gm rushing.

You have got to be kidding me. A defense that went from 30th in pts to 12? A team that went from 31st to 7th in turnovers. Marshall probably got 10 TD's instead of just 6 because he didn't fumble 4 times like he did in 2008. And let's look at those final 4 losses of 2009. 5 offensive turnovers and all of them were Orton. The defense got 10 turnovers during those games. Ridiculous to put it all on the defense and give Orton the credit.

theAPAOps5
06-01-2010, 07:05 PM
Holy crap this thread gave me a headache!

TheReverend
06-01-2010, 07:06 PM
You have got to be kidding me. A defense that went from 30th in pts to 12? A team that went from 31st to 7th in turnovers. Marshall probably got 10 TD's instead of just 6 because he didn't fumble 4 times like he did in 2008. And let's look at those final 4 losses of 2009. 5 offensive turnovers and all of them were Orton. The defense got 10 turnovers during those games. Ridiculous to put it all on the defense and give Orton the credit.

Another strong point.

No, Kyle is not bad. He was also outstanding in the redzone with a 17:1 ratio, and as I previously mentioned, all-world against New England.

And regardless of deficiencies, he should improve this season, but it won't be enough. Josh sees this. QB was a priority for a reason. 26 year old quarterbacks are just entering their prime, if he felt the same way about Kyle as the board does, we'd have signed a vet like Delhomme or Bulger to back him up and kept our draft picks.

Yes, Jay is gone. C'est la vie. Fact is, soon so will Kyle... and we'll be better off for it.

Cito Pelon
06-01-2010, 07:07 PM
Oh he had some bad games. I'm definitely not saying he's flawless (he's no Tebow). He's terrible at reading linebackers... probably 90% of the interceptions that are his fault come from hitting linebackers in their drops.

Regardless, that defense was an absolute mess, and no he wasn't responsible for their failure. In fact, they were largely responsible for his failure to put more points on the board.

Did you know that despite how badly people here knock his redzone ability, he actually was 17 TDs to 4 INTs in 2008 in the redzone? All 4 are inexcusable... but not nearly as bad people made it out to be.

Dude can play football, but seems to me he wanted to get out of Elway's shadow as fast he could.

TheReverend
06-01-2010, 07:18 PM
Dude can play football, but seems to me he wanted to get out of Elway's shadow as fast he could.

Maybe so.

I see it differently. I see all the people he had personal relationships with and loyalty too were gone. In good faith he came in to work one on one with Josh in his off-time to learn the offense and then the Cassel trade rumors. Stupidity from that point on from both sides acting like kids... only one actually was a kid, but whatever.

Cito Pelon
06-01-2010, 07:44 PM
What was the "Mock-like" post?

Or did you just not read the question marks and understand I was making fun of you?

No need to get into it. You have a good heart but no brain to speak of.

TheReverend
06-01-2010, 07:54 PM
No need to get into it. You have a good heart but no brain to speak of.

Then you'll have no problem finally explaining your train of thought for that random outburst of Brandon Marshall stats?

Cito Pelon
06-01-2010, 08:03 PM
Maybe so.

I see it differently. I see all the people he had personal relationships with and loyalty too were gone. In good faith he came in to work one on one with Josh in his off-time to learn the offense and then the Cassel trade rumors. Stupidity from that point on from both sides acting like kids... only one actually was a kid, but whatever.

That was the issue right there.

Josh: Ok, this is what we're gonna do. You see this? You have to do this.
Jay: I think it's better if we do this. I'm better doing this.
Josh: Jay, I know this offense and it works.
Jay (disintersted immediately): OK, yawn, let's take a look at it.

Those two were not gonna have a good relationship from the get go. And Bowlen could care less. Bowlen was happy to move on from Cutler. Bowlen was willing to roll the dice on any QB besides Cutler.

So we'll see how it pans out.

Cito Pelon
06-01-2010, 08:08 PM
Then you'll have no problem finally explaining your train of thought for that random outburst of Brandon Marshall stats?

You mean how Marshall had his best year when he played with Orton and McD? It wasn't random.

TheReverend
06-01-2010, 08:33 PM
That was the issue right there.

Josh: Ok, this is what we're gonna do. You see this? You have to do this.
Jay: I think it's better if we do this. I'm better doing this.
Josh: Jay, I know this offense and it works.
Jay (disintersted immediately): OK, yawn, let's take a look at it.

Those two were not gonna have a good relationship from the get go. And Bowlen could care less. Bowlen was happy to move on from Cutler. Bowlen was willing to roll the dice on any QB besides Cutler.

So we'll see how it pans out.

Maybe so. Fact is, it's all speculation.

You mean how Marshall had his best year when he played with Orton and McD? It wasn't random.

By what measure? First downs? Na, he dropped from 65 to 55. Over 10% less effective in yardage and extremely important stats like yards per catch (even with a career long 75 yard pass reception and 4 catches of 40+ yards despite only having one 40+ yarder in 2008-47 yards)

Scoring? Is your point that we had tunnel vision in the red zone and didn't spread the ball around? We went from 9 players catching TDs in 2008 to 6 in 2009... there's how Marshall's scoring increased bro. And I'm not knocking it because it flat out worked. We were actually more efficient passing in the redzone even though we used less players as legitimate potential threats. Counter-intuitive but remarkably interesting.

One thing I'll definitely note, Brandon's ball security DEFINITELY improved.

SoCalBronco
06-01-2010, 08:58 PM
That was the issue right there.

Josh: Ok, this is what we're gonna do. You see this? You have to do this.
Jay: I think it's better if we do this. I'm better doing this.
Josh: Jay, I know this offense and it works.
Jay (disintersted immediately): OK, yawn, let's take a look at it.

Those two were not gonna have a good relationship from the get go. And Bowlen could care less. Bowlen was happy to move on from Cutler. Bowlen was willing to roll the dice on any QB besides Cutler.

So we'll see how it pans out.

What proof do you have that this is how Jay reacted when initially presented with the offense? The fact that he came in on his own time prior to OTA's suggests he was in fact trying to soak up as much as he could in good faith as Rev suggested.

If he really didn't give a ****, or didn't care for the offense as presented to him, he'd be enjoying his offseason like everyone else.

Instead of continuing to work with him, the staff simply summarily concluded that they wanted to go another direction and tried to get a different QB and then lied about it. I don't particularly fault them for lying about it...they were boxed into a corner, there was no other option at that point. What I do have a problem with, however, was the two faced nature of the organization. They put on the front that they wanted to repair the relationship and wanted to work it out, but at the same time they leaked inflammatory material about Jay to turn the PR war in their favor. Additionally, for all of the alleged olive branches they tried to extend, had Bowlen really been interested in working things out and resolving the crisis in a satisfactory manner, then he would have made time on his calendar to meet with Jay when he came to the facility.

It is extremely difficult for me to sympathize with someone who's phone calls aren't being returned when that individual has allowed character assasination and who has felt that a brisk walk of about 20-50 feet is too taxing on him. The Broncos are Pat Bowlen's top priority. As a mature and experienced owner, he had a fiduciary obligation to the fanbase to give his best efforts to quell this crisis. His acts and omissions were a failure of biblical proportions and shook many fans confidence in him personnaly to the core. This is not to say that other actors acted without moral blame, but we expect better and deserve better from ownership. Bowlen waived the right to complain about ANYTHING through his despicable behavior. Between his performance in last year's drama and his complete about-face as to financial commitment the last five years (DEN ranked in the Top 5 in the NFL in wins to dollars spent despite being a .500 club), I have reached a point where I have very little respect or reverence for the man in his current form. Pat Bowlen used to be a real hero for me. I really loved him. I will always respect his massive contributions in the past, but I don't even like to think about him, now.

TheReverend
06-01-2010, 09:06 PM
What proof do you have that this is how Jay reacted when initially presented with the offense? The fact that he came in on his own time prior to OTA's suggests he was in fact trying to soak up as much as he could in good faith as Rev suggested.

If he really didn't give a ****, or didn't care for the offense as presented to him, he'd be enjoying his offseason like everyone else.

Instead of continuing to work with him, the staff simply summarily concluded that they wanted to go another direction and tried to get a different QB and then lied about it. I don't particularly fault them for lying about it...they were boxed into a corner, there was no other option at that point. What I do have a problem with, however, was the two faced nature of the organization. They put on the front that they wanted to repair the relationship and wanted to work it out, but at the same time they leaked inflammatory material about Jay to turn the PR war in their favor. Additionally, for all of the alleged olive branches they tried to extend, had Bowlen really been interested in working things out and resolving the crisis in a satisfactory manner, then he would have made time on his calendar to meet with Jay when he came to the facility.

It is extremely difficult for me to sympathize with someone who's phone calls aren't being returned when that individual has allowed character assasination and who has felt that a brisk walk of about 20-50 feet is too taxing on him. The Broncos are Pat Bowlen's top priority. As a mature and experienced owner, he had a fiduciary obligation to the fanbase to give his best efforts to quell this crisis. His acts and omissions were a failure of biblical proportions and shook many fans confidence in him personnaly to the core. This is not to say that other actors acted without moral blame, but we expect better and deserve better from ownership. Bowlen waived the right to complain about ANYTHING through his despicable behavior. Between his performance in last year's drama and his complete about-face as to financial commitment the last five years (DEN ranked in the Top 5 in the NFL in wins to dollars spent despite being a .500 club), I have reached a point where I have very little respect or reverence for the man in his current form. Pat Bowlen used to be a real hero for me. I really loved him. I will always respect his massive contributions in the past, but I don't even like to think about him, now.

"Well, he's the man around here now, so I'll be talking with Jay about any potential coaching candidates"

Cito Pelon
06-01-2010, 09:23 PM
Maybe so. Fact is, it's all speculation.



By what measure? First downs? Na, he dropped from 65 to 55. Over 10% less effective in yardage and extremely important stats like yards per catch (even with a career long 75 yard pass reception and 4 catches of 40+ yards despite only having one 40+ yarder in 2008-47 yards)

Scoring? Is your point that we had tunnel vision in the red zone and didn't spread the ball around? We went from 9 players catching TDs in 2008 to 6 in 2009... there's how Marshall's scoring increased bro. And I'm not knocking it because it flat out worked. We were actually more efficient passing in the redzone even though we used less players as legitimate potential threats. Counter-intuitive but remarkably interesting.

One thing I'll definitely note, Brandon's ball security DEFINITELY improved.

I think the focus is scoring. Sans Marshall, they still want to score. Seems like they're confident about scoring. Moreno has a knack around the goal line. Turner recognized it. Moreno was a good pick. He's intense around the goal line, has a nose for the end zone like Portis. Maybe not so good between the 20's, but Moreno has a nose for the endzone. Moreno will bang it in behind some good guard drive.
Seems to me in the redzone the stats you presented hopefully augment a more aggressive ground scoring attack.

TheReverend
06-01-2010, 09:45 PM
I think the focus is scoring. Sans Marshall, they still want to score. Seems like they're confident about scoring. Moreno has a knack around the goal line. Turner recognized it. Moreno was a good pick. He's intense around the goal line, has a nose for the end zone like Portis. Maybe not so good between the 20's, but Moreno has a nose for the endzone. Moreno will bang it in behind some good guard drive.
Seems to me in the redzone the stats you presented hopefully augment a more aggressive ground scoring attack.

No need to sell me on Moreno. I've liked him for a while. He has a lot of work to do proving he's worth it still, though.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
06-01-2010, 09:50 PM
Man, we're still going with "the organization leaked inflammatory PR material" huh?

Sheesh. thought that would have died off now since there's zero proof that it actually went down that way.

SoCal believes what he wants, though. Which is why he has Nixon as his avy, I suppose.

TheReverend
06-01-2010, 09:55 PM
In b4 a lengthy, thorough and home run response by SoCal

Dagmar
06-01-2010, 09:55 PM
Man, we're still going with "the organization leaked inflammatory PR material" huh?

Sheesh. thought that would have died off now since there's zero proof that it actually went down that way.

SoCal believes what he wants, though. Which is why he has Nixon as his avy, I suppose.

His meltdown last year was still glorious. Absolutely epic. We should stop talking about the emo QB who threw for less yards than Kyle Orton last year, we could find ourselves banned.

;)

http://thejetpress.com/files/2009/03/emo_jay_cutler.jpg

http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/rr194/lorincej/KyleOrton.gif

Dagmar
06-01-2010, 09:56 PM
In b4 a lengthy, thorough and home run response by SoCal

A homerun post based on speculation and a slobbering man crush on the beetus ridden interception cannon?

Cito Pelon
06-01-2010, 10:02 PM
What proof do you have that this is how Jay reacted when initially presented with the offense? The fact that he came in on his own time prior to OTA's suggests he was in fact trying to soak up as much as he could in good faith as Rev suggested.

If he really didn't give a ****, or didn't care for the offense as presented to him, he'd be enjoying his offseason like everyone else.

Instead of continuing to work with him, the staff simply summarily concluded that they wanted to go another direction and tried to get a different QB and then lied about it. I don't particularly fault them for lying about it...they were boxed into a corner, there was no other option at that point. What I do have a problem with, however, was the two faced nature of the organization. They put on the front that they wanted to repair the relationship and wanted to work it out, but at the same time they leaked inflammatory material about Jay to turn the PR war in their favor. Additionally, for all of the alleged olive branches they tried to extend, had Bowlen really been interested in working things out and resolving the crisis in a satisfactory manner, then he would have made time on his calendar to meet with Jay when he came to the facility.

It is extremely difficult for me to sympathize with someone who's phone calls aren't being returned when that individual has allowed character assasination and who has felt that a brisk walk of about 20-50 feet is too taxing on him. The Broncos are Pat Bowlen's top priority. As a mature and experienced owner, he had a fiduciary obligation to the fanbase to give his best efforts to quell this crisis. His acts and omissions were a failure of biblical proportions and shook many fans confidence in him personnaly to the core. This is not to say that other actors acted without moral blame, but we expect better and deserve better from ownership. Bowlen waived the right to complain about ANYTHING through his despicable behavior. Between his performance in last year's drama and his complete about-face as to financial commitment the last five years (DEN ranked in the Top 5 in the NFL in wins to dollars spent despite being a .500 club), I have reached a point where I have very little respect or reverence for the man in his current form. Pat Bowlen used to be a real hero for me. I really loved him. I will always respect his massive contributions in the past, but I don't even like to think about him, now.

You go on and on. After said and done, you seem pretty sour about the Broncs.

SoCalBronco
06-01-2010, 10:04 PM
You go on and on. After said and done, you seem pretty sour about the Broncs.

No...I'm only sour about Bowlen. I've given Josh props on a number of occasions during the season and this offseason as well (Tebow etc.).

TheReverend
06-01-2010, 10:09 PM
A homerun post based on speculation and a slobbering man crush on the beetus ridden interception cannon?

Just wait for it...

You don't want to make him angry.

http://andreoli.altervista.org/nascosti/Hulk01.jpg

tsiguy96
06-01-2010, 10:10 PM
No...I'm only sour about Bowlen. I've given Josh props on a number of occasions during the season and this offseason as well (Tebow etc.).


how can you still be sour about bowlen? theres no indication hes changing his style under any circumstance, especially when it comes to spending money to improve the team.

SoCalBronco
06-01-2010, 10:13 PM
Just wait for it...

You don't want to make him angry.

http://andreoli.altervista.org/nascosti/Hulk01.jpg

LOL....nah, I don't get into it with people that much anymore. It doesn't accomplish anything of value. Everyone has their own opinion and sometimes infer different conclusions from the same facts. It is what it is.

SoCalBronco
06-01-2010, 10:15 PM
how can you still be sour about bowlen? theres no indication hes changing his style under any circumstance, especially when it comes to spending money to improve the team.

DEN 5th best in wins per dollars spent in the last few years under Shanny.

We were roughly .500 during that time.

2+2=4.

Cito Pelon
06-01-2010, 10:15 PM
"Well, he's the man around here now, so I'll be talking with Jay about any potential coaching candidates"

Seems like Jay didn't talk with Bowlen much. And not a big deal. As I've pointed out many, many times - the only state that approved the Cutler to Chicago trade out of 50 possible choices was C-O-L-O-R-A-D-O.

Cito Pelon
06-01-2010, 10:23 PM
No...I'm only sour about Bowlen. I've given Josh props on a number of occasions during the season and this offseason as well (Tebow etc.).

Just relax, jeez. Seems like you put so much effort into being negative. You bust out 300 word posts that -yes - initially praise McD, then gradually build up to a rant about Bowlen. Just relax and let it pan out. You worked yourself up . . ..well, just relax, eh? It's gonna be a good year.

Dagmar
06-01-2010, 10:44 PM
Just relax, jeez. Seems like you put so much effort into being negative. You bust out 300 word posts that -yes - initially praise McD, then gradually build up to a rant about Bowlen. Just relax and let it pan out. You worked yourself up . . ..well, just relax, eh? It's gonna be a good year.

To be fair he is a LOT calmer than last year.

gunns
06-01-2010, 11:55 PM
A homerun post based on speculation and a slobbering man crush on the beetus ridden interception cannon?

Maybe, as all of the posts on the situation have been. But I don't see it as a man crush on Cutler as a closer scenario to what truly happened and who had the greater responsibility in the situation. It takes two to tango and to think only one was guilty is absurd. And please don't come back with the juvenile response that I am a Cutler lover. I was off his bandwagon long before that whole thing happened. While I'm not an Orton fan I wouldn't be any happier with Cutler. And just to make sure, I was thrilled when Shanahan was let go.

colonelbeef
06-01-2010, 11:58 PM
14th ranked qb in the league last year. Your opinion is retarded.

2-8 in the second half, including 4 straight losses which clearly demonstrated an inability to make a play when it mattered. The defenses adjusted to the limited gameplan built around a limited QB, and the Broncos offense was horrible as a result.

Orton has a below average arm, below average pocket awareness, and is possible the most immobile QB in the league. The Broncos will never win anything of significance with him at QB.

If he is so awesome, why is McDaniels desperately trying to replace him?

But you go ahead and tout his 14th ranked stats. That really means a lot, lol. His stats were padded with lots of slants which ended up going nowhere. The bottom line is that the offense clearly regressed form 2008, and subpar QB play was the major factor.

I'm sorry that you don't understand football, really.

colonelbeef
06-02-2010, 12:01 AM
Slowly the super fans are starting to point out flaws in Orton. I can't wait to see what they say about him after he is gone. :spit:

Once he is gone, all of the superfans will say how terrible be was, and how much better off we are with Quinn

Killericon
06-02-2010, 12:36 AM
Once he is gone, all of the superfans will say how terrible be was, and how much better off we are with Quinn

Then we'll rip him a new one when we go to Tebow...All sports fans are like this. Don't pretend it's a Bronco/OM only problem.

jhns
06-02-2010, 06:56 AM
All sports fans are like this.

I'm not.

bowtown
06-02-2010, 07:23 AM
I'm not.

Right, you are the opposite. You like all players until they come to the Broncos or once they've left.

fontaine
06-02-2010, 07:28 AM
Once he is gone, all of the superfans will say how terrible be was, and how much better off we are with Quinn

Only if Orton stinks it up this season. Realistically, Orton probably played up to his peak last year. Because he's physically limited and can't make plays with his mobility etc there's probably a real chance he'll struggle this year with a reformed OL and his most reliable WR gone.

jhns
06-02-2010, 07:38 AM
Right, you are the opposite. You like all players until they come to the Broncos or once they've left.

More like I live in reality and don't pretend **** players are good. I also don't have the need to hate on players that leave unless they go to a division rival. In other words, I don't act like a teenage girl like the rest of you.

tsiguy96
06-02-2010, 07:55 AM
DEN 5th best in wins per dollars spent in the last few years under Shanny.

We were roughly .500 during that time.

2+2=4.

i still dont get how you come to the conclusion that is bowlens fault, should he have told shanahan to spend more money, he wasnt signing enough FAs?

Captain 'Dre
06-02-2010, 08:10 AM
Says anybody who has seen Kyle Orton throw or run a football

I've seen marble statues move better in the pocket

Dude... Quinn has been awful thus far in the NFL. AWFUL!

We can hope he turns it around, but Orton has at least proven himself to be a serviceable starter. Quinn hasn't.

tsiguy96
06-02-2010, 08:26 AM
dont try to make sense to colonelbeef, it will never work, he believes what he wants, fact or fiction.

oubronco
06-02-2010, 08:27 AM
Once he is gone, all of the superfans will say how terrible be was, and how much better off we are with Quinn

Popps will be leading the way

oubronco
06-02-2010, 08:28 AM
Dude... Quinn has been awful thus far in the NFL. AWFUL!

We can hope he turns it around, but Orton has at least proven himself to be a serviceable starter. Quinn hasn't.

Exactly

Steve Sewell
06-02-2010, 10:54 AM
Marshall almost doubled his career TD total playing with Orton for only one year.

That's because Orton can produce in the red zone, unlike his interception-machine predecessor.

Dagmar
06-02-2010, 11:07 AM
That's because Orton can produce in the red zone, unlike his interception-machine predecessor.

http://i37.tinypic.com/2lvmwl0.gif

AlienBronco
06-02-2010, 11:33 AM
Career total TD production for Orton and it's predecessor?

gyldenlove
06-02-2010, 11:39 AM
That's because Orton can produce in the red zone, unlike his interception-machine predecessor.

So aside from the fact that our red zone offense was quite a bit worse in 09 than 08 what do you base that on?

TheReverend
06-02-2010, 11:43 AM
So aside from the fact that our red zone offense was quite a bit worse in 09 than 08 what do you base that on?

It's a gross exaggeration but he was better in the red zone.

17:1 for Orton
17:4 for Cutler

AlienBronco
06-02-2010, 11:47 AM
Orton 2005-2009 51 TD's
Predeccesor 2006-2009 81 TD's

Tombstone RJ
06-02-2010, 12:05 PM
More like I live in reality and don't pretend **** players are good. I also don't have the need to hate on players that leave unless they go to a division rival. In other words, I don't act like a teenage girl like the rest of you.

You sure about this? Seems like you can never admit you're wrong either. Kinda like a teeny bopper with a self esteem issue, and pink panties.

jhns
06-02-2010, 12:54 PM
You sure about this? Seems like you can never admit you're wrong either. Kinda like a teeny bopper with a self esteem issue, and pink panties.

I was just talking about when it comes to players coming and going. We all enjoy acting like teenage girls at some point.

I also admit I am wrong all the time. I have to be wrong to do that though.