BREAKING: Israel attacks aid flotilla -- kills ten

[mhgaffney]

Press Release 05/31/2010

Uri Avnery: this night a crime was perpetrated in the middle of the sea, by order of the government of Israel and the IDF Command

A warlike attack against aid ships and deadly shooting at peace and humanitarian aid activists

It is a crazy thing that only a government that crossed all red lines can do

"Only a crazy government that has lost all restraint and all connection to reality could something like that - consider ships carrying humanitarian aid and peace activists from around the world as an enemy and send massive military force to international waters to attack them, shoot and kill.

"Noone in the world will believe the lies and excuses which the government and army spokesmen come up with," said former Knesset member Uri Avnery of the Gush Shalom movement. Gush Shalom activists together with activists of other organizations are to depart at 11:00 from Tel Aviv to protest in front of the prepared detention facility where the international peace activists will be brought.

Greta Berlin, the spokeswoman for the flotilla organizers located in Cyprus, told Gush Shalom activists that the Israeli commandos landed by helicopter on the boats and immediately opened fire.

This is a day of disgrace to the State of Israel, a day of anxiety in which we discover that our future was entrusted to a bunch of trigger-happy people without any responsibility. This day is a day of disgrace and madness and stupidity without limit, the day the Israeli government took care to blacken the name of the country in the world, adding convincing evidence of aggressiveness and brutality to Israel's already bad international image, discouraging and distancing the few remaining friends.

Indeed, today a provocation took place off the coast of Gaza - but the provocateurs were not the peace activists invited by the Palestinians and seeking to reach Gaza. The provocation was carried out by Navy ships commandos at the bidding of the Israeli government, blocking the way of the aid boats and using deadly force.

It is time to lift the siege on the Gaza Strip, which causes severe suffering to its residents. Today the Israeli government ripped the mask of its face with its own hands and exposed the fact that Israel did not "disengage" from Gaza. Real disengagement from the area does not go together with blocking the access to it or sending soldiers to shoot and kill and wound those who try to get there.

The State of Israel promised in the Oslo Accords 17 years ago to enable and encourage the establishment of a deep water port in Gaza, through which Palestinians could import and export freely to develop their economy. It's time to realize this commitment and open the Port of Gaza. Only after the Gaza port will be open to free and undisturbed movement, just like the Ashdod and Haifa ports, will Israel really have disengaged from the Gaza Strip. Until then, the world will continue - and rightly so - to consider the Gaza Strip under Israeli occupation and the State of Israel as responsible for the fate of the people living there.

Contact: Uri Avnery 0505-306449
Adam Keller, Gush Shalom spokesman 03-5565804 or 054-2340749
Coalition Against the Siege Yacov - 050-5733276, 09-7670801, Sebastian -050-6846056

Greta Berlin spokeswoman for flotilla organizers
35799187275

[theAPAOps5]

Good

[W*GS]

Too bad gaff-o wasn't there doing his part to help out Hamas terrorists. Humanity mighta got lucky.

He claims to be a "peace activist" and pro-Palestinian, but he lacks the balls to actually do the work.

[DenverBrit]

Too bad gaff-o wasn't there doing his part to help out Hamas terrorists. Humanity mighta got lucky.

He claims to be a "peace activist" and pro-Palestinian, but he lacks the balls to actually do the work.

To be fair, he jumped into action and started a thread on a football board.

[mhgaffney]

Shame on you Apa.

You are showing your true anti-semitic colors. The Arab Palestinians imprisoned in Gaza are semitic -- and the activists trying to relieve them with humanitarian aid were not armed.

This is a clear case of murder -- and you think it's "good.." ?


http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/israeli-butchery-at-sea-by-gilad-atzmon.html

Israeli Butchery at Sea

by Gilad Atzmon
Monday, May 31, 2010

As I write this piece the scale of the Israeli lethal slaughter at sea is yet to be clear. However we already know that at around 4am Gaza time, hundreds of IDF commandos stormed the Free Gaza international humanitarian fleet. We learn from the Arab press that at least 16 peace activists have been murdered and more than 50 were injured. Once again it is devastatingly obvious that Israel is not trying to hide its true nature: an inhuman murderous collective fuelled by a psychosis and driven by paranoia.

For days the Israeli government prepared the Israeli society for the massacre at sea. It said that the Flotilla carried weapons, it had ‘terrorists’ on board. Only yesterday evening it occurred to me that this Israeli malicious media spin was there to prepare the Israeli public for a full scale Israeli deadly military operation in international waters. Make no mistake. If I knew exactly where Israel was heading and the possible

consequences, the Israeli cabinet and military elite were fully aware of it all the way along. What happened yesterday wasn’t just a pirate terrorist attack. It was actually murder in broad day light even though it happened in the dark.

Yesterday at 10 pm I contacted Free Gaza and shared with them everything I knew. I obviously grasped that hundreds of peace activists most of them elders, had very little chance against the Israeli killing machine. I was praying all night for our brothers and sisters. At 5am GMT the news broke to the world. In international waters Israel raided an innocent international convoy of boats carrying cement, paper and medical aid to the besieged Gazans. The Israelis were using live ammunition murdering and injuring everything around them.

Today we will see demonstrations around the world, we will see many events mourning our dead. We may even see some of Israel’s friends ‘posturing’ against the slaughter. Clearly this is not enough.

The massacre that took place yesterday was a premeditated Israeli operation. Israel wanted blood because it believes that its ‘power of deterrence’ expands with the more dead it leaves behind. The Israeli decision to use hundreds of commando soldiers against civilians was taken by the Israeli cabinet together with the Israeli top military commanders. What we saw yesterday wasn’t just a failure on the ground. It was actually an institutional failure of a morbid society that a long time ago lost touch with humanity.

It is no secret that Palestinians are living in a siege for years. But it is now down to the nations to move on and mount the ultimate pressure on Israel and its citizens. Since the massacre yesterday was committed by a popular army that followed instructions given by a ‘democratically elected’ government, from now on, every Israeli should be considered as a suspicious war criminal unless proved different.

Considering the fact that Israel stormed naval vessels sailing under Irish, Turkish and Greek flags. Both NATO members and EU countries must immediately cease their relationships with Israel and close their airspace to Israeli airplanes.

Considering yesterday’s news about Israeli nuclear submarines being stationed in the Gulf, the world must react quickly and severely. Israel is now officially mad and deadly. The Jewish State is not just careless about human life, as we have been following the Israeli press campaign leading to the slaughter, Israel actually seeks pleasure in inflicting pain and devastation on others.

Free Gaza!

[mhgaffney]

I am here -- because in my opinion the peace movement for too long has preached to the choir.

After the Viet Nam debacle the peace movement should have engaged the American people in a debate about the moral dimension -- why the war was immoral. That debate never happened. Everyone wanted to forget.

Change in society can only happen when the peace movement reaches out to broader segments of society. That is why I have posted on this board -- frequented by the silent majority, right wing nut cases, knee jerks etc

[Spider]

this is why you are such a joke numb nuts ........ there are 2 sides to every story , They very well could have been smuggling weapons or terrorist .........You are no different then the bedwetters .............

[W*GS]

To be fair, he jumped into action and started a thread on a football board.

True. He might get a medal for his extensive and powerful efforts from Hamas.

[elsid13]

Hey Gaff, was the America naval blockade of Cuba a legal action in your mind?

[W*GS]

gaff-o is not part of the "peace movement".

He's one of those insane individuals who thinks that being reflexively anti-American (and anti-Israel and pro-Palestinian) is "peace".

He's a tool - and not a very useful one at that, since about all he does is post here and call us idiots for seeing through his charade. Oh, and he does try to drum up sales for his bloodsucking books.

He's one of the most morals-bereft and contemptible people I've ever "met".

[elsid13]

Interesting

"Turkey's NTV network showed activists beating one commando with sticks as he landed on one of the boats. Dr. Arnon Afek, deputy director of Chaim Sheba Medical Center outside Tel Aviv, said two commandos were brought in with gunshot wounds. Another had serious head wounds from an unspecified blow, Afek added."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100531/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

[mhgaffney]

I asked an Israeli peace activist -- about the reporting in Israel. The media there alleged that the activists on the boats were armed with box cutters -- and serious weapons like marbles.

I am not joking. Here is her response. The Israeli government prepared the public for violence. It was clearly premeditated.

BTW she agrees with Giliad Atzmon's analysis:

Hi Mark,

See below a letter that I wrote to friends – the Israeli media was preparing violence in advance and monitoring the media today it could be seen how the propoganda evolved: on Friday some activists were "identified with Iz a-Din al-Qasam" and might extinguish cigarettes on soldiers' faces; by mid-morning they allegedly used cold weapons, such as sticks, slingshots, iron bars and had two hand guns which were found with empty magazines, allegedly after all rounds had been fired at the Israeli commandoes; by afternoon they were said to have "stockpiled" baseball clubs and media websites showed bags of what were said to be such weapons as well as bags of marbles; a reporter on board who was wounded reportedly had two box cutters in his pockets – this was offered as proof of the activists being armed to the teeth. At around 4:00 p.m. the deputy Foreign Minister stated that the activists are connected to international terrorism, including al-Qaeda. Allegations in the media also included that activists had snatched machine guns from the commandoes. These allegations, cover-ups and apologetics are being shown non-stop on TV and websites in Israel.

For me, the most telling headline in Ha'aretz today was: "Navy Commandoes: The [activists] Were Prepared for War". Obviously, the navy commandoes were prepared for a tea party.

I agree with Gilad Atzmon's anaysis below. The aim seems to have been ending international solidarity and the aid boats.

Rayna



Friends,

I don't have any specific news about the activists aboard the boats, beyond what the media is reporting. Apparently, Israeli citizens are among the dead. Their families have been notified and threatened not to speak to the media. There are conflicting reports about the status of Sheikh Ra'ed Salah, leader of the Islamic Movement in Israel and probably the most prominent Israeli citizen among the activists. His family is gathered at the hospital where a man who looks like him is in surgery for a head wound and they are accusing the police and the hospital of concealing information about his status and the identity of the wounded man. According to Israeli media, there are 36 wounded now in Israeli hospitals, and this is before all of the ships have arrived.

The Palestinians in Israel have called for a general strike for tomorrow (Tuesday). At the time of writing hundreds of activists are near Ashdod port, protesting the massacre and observing the towing of the flotilla into the port – see below press release from Gush Shalom. Demos are scheduled for this evening at 7:00 in Tel-Aviv, Jerusalem and Haifa.

Anyone who watched the Friday news magazine on the Israeli government TV channel could have expected some violence against the flotilla – commentators, former 'security agents' and government spokespersosns prepared the ground for the deadly attack. Among other things, they called to stop the flotilla "at any cost," alleged that there were Palestinian Islamist commandoes on board, accompanied by "professional demonstrators," and warned that the Israeli soldiers could expect curses, spitting, cigarettes used to burn them…

There is little to say right now. Gush Shalom have activists on site at the Ashdod port demo and are in contact with the flotilla organizers, so you can look at their website.

[mhgaffney]

Hey Gaff, was the America naval blockade of Cuba a legal action in your mind?

Legal? By what law?

Bullies do not need laws. In fact, they generally ignore laws.

Another case was the US blockade of Nicaragua in the 1980s -- which was declared illegal by the international court. But did this stop the US? Of course not. The US simply ignored the court's decision.

[mhgaffney]

hey Spider,

Do you honestly think the peace activists on the flotilla would put their own lives in danger by trying to smuggle in weapons? You must be insane.

NO, they are trying to bring in supplies currently blocked by Israel -- medicines, wheel chairs, cement (for rebuilding homes), probably even commodities like shoes.

Israel cannot allow the siege to be broken -- or will lose face. This is what it is all about. Wake up. Use your brain.

MHG

[Spider]

hey Spider,

Do you honestly think the peace activists on the flotilla would put their own lives in danger by trying to smuggle in weapons? You must be insane.

NO, they are trying to bring in supplies currently blocked by Israel -- medicines, wheel chairs, cement (for rebuilding homes), probably even commodities like shoes.

Israel cannot allow the siege to be broken -- or will lose face. This is what it is all about. Wake up. Use your brain.

MHG Hey genius , we are talking about people that strap bombs to themselves and their kids ............ Hello Mcfly ...........

[W*GS]

gaff-o's bizarre beliefs are on full display.

Rather horrifying, aren't they?

He's no "peace activist" - I don't know WTF he is, but "peace" isn't what motivates him. Hatred does.

[mhgaffney]

Hey genius , we are talking about people that strap bombs to themselves and their kids ............ Hello Mcfly ...........

You have evidently swallowed the lie that the ships were carrying terrorists. Nonsense. This is propaganda.

We are talking about 700 peace activists from 50 different nations. The group includes at least one Nobel Peace Prize winner -- from Ireland.

The claim that Israel attacked these ships in self defense is absurd. It's also a lie.

Get serious. If heavily armed Israeli soldiers descended on your boat from helicopters and started shooting -- would you try to defend yourself with sticks or whatever? Get serious. Of course you would.

Here is an editorial from the Electronic Intifada --

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article11305.shtml

International solidarity and the Freedom Flotilla massacre

Editorial, The Electronic Intifada, 31 May 2010

Early this morning under the cover of darkness Israeli soldiers stormed the lead ship of the six-vessel Freedom Flotilla aid convoy in international waters and killed and injured dozens of civilians aboard. All the ships were violently seized by Israeli forces, but hours after the attack fate of the passengers aboard the other ships remained unknown.

The Mavi Marmara was carrying around 600 activists when Israeli warships flanked it from all sides as soldiers descended from helicopters onto the ship's deck. Reports from people on board the ship backed up by live video feeds broadcast on Turkish TV show that Israeli forces used live ammunition against the civilian passengers, some of whom resisted the attack with sticks and other items.

The Freedom Flotilla was organized by a coalition of groups that sought to break the Israeli-led siege on the Gaza Strip that began in 2007. Together, the flotilla carried 700 civilian activists from around 50 countries and over 10,000 tons of aid including food, medicines, medical equipment, reconstruction materials and equipment, as well as various other necessities arbitrarily banned by Israel.

As of 6:00pm Jerusalem time most media were still reporting that up to 20 people had been killed, and many more injured. However, Israel was still withholding the exact numbers and names of the dead and injured. Passengers aboard the ships who had been posting Twitter updates on the Flotilla's progress had not been heard from since before the attack and efforts to contact passengers by satellite phone were unsuccessful. The Arabic- and English-language networks of Al-Jazeera lost contact with their half dozen staff traveling with the flotilla.

News of the massacre on board the Freedom Flotilla began to emerge around dawn in the eastern Mediterranean first on the live feed from the ship, social media, Turkish television, and Al-Jazeera. Israeli media were placed under strict military censorship, and reported primarily from foreign sources. However, by the morning the Jerusalem Post reported that the Israeli soldiers who boarded the flotilla in international waters were fired upon by passengers. Quoting anonymous military sources, the Jerusalem Post claimed that the flotilla passengers had set-up a "well planned lynch." ("IDF: Soldiers were met by well-planned lynch in boat raid")

The Israeli daily Haaretz also reported that the Israeli soldiers were "attacked" when trying to board the flotilla. ("At least 10 activists killed in Israel Navy clashes onboard Gaza aid flotilla")

This narrative of passengers "attacking" the Israeli soldiers was quickly adopted by the Associated Press and carried across mainstream media sources in the United States, including the Washington Post. ("Israeli army: More than 10 killed on Gaza flotilla")

Israel's Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon stated in a Monday morning press conference that the Israeli military was acting in "self-defense." He claimed that "At least two guns were found" and that the "incident" was still ongoing. Ayalon also claimed that the Flotilla organizers were "well-known" and were supported by and had connections to "international terrorist organizations."

It is unclear how anyone could credibly adopt an Israeli narrative of "self-defense" when Israel had carried out an unprovoked armed assault on civilian ships in international waters. Surely any right of self-defense would belong to the passengers on the ship. Nevertheless, the Freedom Flotilla organizers had clearly and loudly proclaimed their ships to be unarmed civilian vessels on a humanitarian mission.

The Israeli media strategy appeared to be to maintain censorship of the facts such as the number of dead and injured, the names of the victims and on which ships the injuries occurred, while aggressively putting out its version of events which is based on a dual strategy of implausibly claiming "self-defense" while demonizing the Freedom Flotilla passengers and intimating that they deserved what they got.

As news spread around the world, foreign governments began to react. Greece and Turkey, which had many citizens aboard the Flotilla, immediately recalled their ambassadors from Tel Aviv. Spain strongly condemned the attack. France's foreign minister Bernard Kouchner expressed "profound shock." The European Union's foreign minister Catherine Ashton called for an "enquiry."

What should be clear is this: no one can claim to be surprised by what the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights correctly termed a "hideous crime." Israel had been openly threatening a violent attack on the Flotilla for days, but complacency, complicity and inaction, specifically from Western and Arab governments once more sent the message that Israel could act with total impunity.

There is no doubt that Israel's massacre of 1,400 people, mostly civilians, in Gaza in December 2008/January 2009 was a wake up call for international civil society to begin to adopt boycott, divestment and sanctions (BDS) against Israel similar to those applied to apartheid-era South Africa.

Yet governments largely have remained complacent and complicit in Israel's ongoing violence and oppression against Palestinians and increasingly international humanitarian workers and solidarity activists, not only in Gaza, but throughout historic Palestine. We can only imagine that had former Israeli foreign minister Tzipi Livni indeed been arrested for war crimes in Gaza when a judge in London issued a warrant for her arrest, had the international community begun to implement the recommendations of the UN-commissioned Goldstone Report, had there been a much firmer response to Israel's assassination of a Hamas official in Dubai, it would not have dared to act with such brazenness.

As protest and solidarity actions begin in Palestine and across the world, this is the message they must carry: enough impunity,

[mhgaffney]

From this op ed and from my source in Israel -- it appears that censorship now rules in Israel. The people there are being fed lies -- propaganda -- about what is happening.

Israel has no bill of rights. Although the Israeli press is generally more open and free than in the US -- the Israeli military can and does impose censorship whenever it chooses.

[Spider]

You have evidently swallowed the lie that the ships were carrying terrorists. Nonsense. This is propaganda.

We are talking about 700 peace activists from 50 different nations. The group includes at least one Nobel Peace Prize winner -- from Ireland.

The claim that Israel attacked these ships in self defense is absurd. It's also a lie.

Get serious. If heavily armed Israeli soldiers descended on your boat from helicopters and started shooting -- would you try to defend yourself with sticks or whatever? Get serious. Of course you would.

Here is an editorial from the Electronic Intifada --

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article11305.shtml

International solidarity and the Freedom Flotilla massacre

Editorial, The Electronic Intifada, 31 May 2010

Early this morning under the cover of darkness Israeli soldiers stormed the lead ship of the six-vessel Freedom Flotilla aid convoy in international waters and killed and injured dozens of civilians aboard. All the ships were violently seized by Israeli forces, but hours after the attack fate of the passengers aboard the other ships remained unknown.

The Mavi Marmara was carrying around 600 activists when Israeli warships flanked it from all sides as soldiers descended from helicopters onto the ship's deck. Reports from people on board the ship backed up by live video feeds broadcast on Turkish TV show that Israeli forces used live ammunition against the civilian passengers, some of whom resisted the attack with sticks and other items.

The Freedom Flotilla was organized by a coalition of groups that sought to break the Israeli-led siege on the Gaza Strip that began in 2007. Together, the flotilla carried 700 civilian activists from around 50 countries and over 10,000 tons of aid including food, medicines, medical equipment, reconstruction materials and equipment, as well as various other necessities arbitrarily banned by Israel.

As of 6:00pm Jerusalem time most media were still reporting that up to 20 people had been killed, and many more injured. However, Israel was still withholding the exact numbers and names of the dead and injured. Passengers aboard the ships who had been posting Twitter updates on the Flotilla's progress had not been heard from since before the attack and efforts to contact passengers by satellite phone were unsuccessful. The Arabic- and English-language networks of Al-Jazeera lost contact with their half dozen staff traveling with the flotilla.

News of the massacre on board the Freedom Flotilla began to emerge around dawn in the eastern Mediterranean first on the live feed from the ship, social media, Turkish television, and Al-Jazeera. Israeli media were placed under strict military censorship, and reported primarily from foreign sources. However, by the morning the Jerusalem Post reported that the Israeli soldiers who boarded the flotilla in international waters were fired upon by passengers. Quoting anonymous military sources, the Jerusalem Post claimed that the flotilla passengers had set-up a "well planned lynch." ("IDF: Soldiers were met by well-planned lynch in boat raid")

The Israeli daily Haaretz also reported that the Israeli soldiers were "attacked" when trying to board the flotilla. ("At least 10 activists killed in Israel Navy clashes onboard Gaza aid flotilla")

This narrative of passengers "attacking" the Israeli soldiers was quickly adopted by the Associated Press and carried across mainstream media sources in the United States, including the Washington Post. ("Israeli army: More than 10 killed on Gaza flotilla")

Israel's Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon stated in a Monday morning press conference that the Israeli military was acting in "self-defense." He claimed that "At least two guns were found" and that the "incident" was still ongoing. Ayalon also claimed that the Flotilla organizers were "well-known" and were supported by and had connections to "international terrorist organizations."

It is unclear how anyone could credibly adopt an Israeli narrative of "self-defense" when Israel had carried out an unprovoked armed assault on civilian ships in international waters. Surely any right of self-defense would belong to the passengers on the ship. Nevertheless, the Freedom Flotilla organizers had clearly and loudly proclaimed their ships to be unarmed civilian vessels on a humanitarian mission.

The Israeli media strategy appeared to be to maintain censorship of the facts such as the number of dead and injured, the names of the victims and on which ships the injuries occurred, while aggressively putting out its version of events which is based on a dual strategy of implausibly claiming "self-defense" while demonizing the Freedom Flotilla passengers and intimating that they deserved what they got.

As news spread around the world, foreign governments began to react. Greece and Turkey, which had many citizens aboard the Flotilla, immediately recalled their ambassadors from Tel Aviv. Spain strongly condemned the attack. France's foreign minister Bernard Kouchner expressed "profound shock." The European Union's foreign minister Catherine Ashton called for an "enquiry."

What should be clear is this: no one can claim to be surprised by what the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights correctly termed a "hideous crime." Israel had been openly threatening a violent attack on the Flotilla for days, but complacency, complicity and inaction, specifically from Western and Arab governments once more sent the message that Israel could act with total impunity.

There is no doubt that Israel's massacre of 1,400 people, mostly civilians, in Gaza in December 2008/January 2009 was a wake up call for international civil society to begin to adopt boycott, divestment and sanctions (BDS) against Israel similar to those applied to apartheid-era South Africa.

Yet governments largely have remained complacent and complicit in Israel's ongoing violence and oppression against Palestinians and increasingly international humanitarian workers and solidarity activists, not only in Gaza, but throughout historic Palestine. We can only imagine that had former Israeli foreign minister Tzipi Livni indeed been arrested for war crimes in Gaza when a judge in London issued a warrant for her arrest, had the international community begun to implement the recommendations of the UN-commissioned Goldstone Report, had there been a much firmer response to Israel's assassination of a Hamas official in Dubai, it would not have dared to act with such brazenness.

As protest and solidarity actions begin in Palestine and across the world, this is the message they must carry: enough impunity,
LOL speaking of propaganda ..............

[epicSocialism4tw]

Israel has the right to protect itself.

[mhgaffney]

hey Spider, Do yourself a favor. I assume you have an Internet connection in your big rig.

While you are trucking along - listen to this tremendous interview with British journalist Alan Hart. He is one of our best authorities about the Palestinian - Israeli conflict.

I heard Hart lecture at UC Berkeley back in 1987 -- when I was writing my book about Vanunu and the Israeli nuke program.

He was close to officials on both sides of the conflict - including Golda Meir and Yasser Arafat. He was also present during the 1967 Six Day War.

Check out Hart's analysis of the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty which occurred during that war. Hart is correct about the history. They covered up the attack --

MHG

http://edwardrynearson.wordpress.com/2010/05/25/alan-hart/

[mhgaffney]

Israel has the right to protect itself.

From what?

Unarmed peace activists?

[epicSocialism4tw]

From what?

Unarmed peace activists?

Thats what you all call yourselves, but you advocate organizations that call for the demolition of Israel.

You are an advocate for terrorists.

After a recent visit to Ground Zero on Manhattan and seeing the effects of terrorism on the people of NY, I am all the more convinced that there needs to be a strong line drawn in the sand beetween the good people of the world and people like you who advocate terrorism.

[Spider]

hey Spider, Do yourself a favor. I assume you have an Internet connection in your big rig.

While you are trucking along - listen to this tremendous interview with British journalist Alan Hart. He is one of our best authorities about the Palestinian - Israeli conflict.

I heard Hart lecture at UC Berkeley back in 1987 -- when I was writing my book about Vanunu and the Israeli nuke program.

He was close to officials on both sides of the conflict - including Golda Meir and Yasser Arafat. He was also present during the 1967 Six Day War.

Check out Hart's analysis of the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty which occurred during that war. Hart is correct about the history. They covered up the attack --

MHG

http://edwardrynearson.wordpress.com/2010/05/25/alan-hart/

first off Ignore McSkillit he is just as bat **** crazy as you are ........ Look I know Israel isnt innocent , and thats the difference between you and me , you want us to believe Haamas is without blame , just out ot do humanitarian deeds ............Ghaff dont piss on my leg and tell me it is rainin ...........I ****ing know better you twit

[barryr]

It's not Israel going around saying they will wipe certain countries and groups of people off the map for just existing, but it's the same bozos who constantly give the terror groups who do say such things the benefit of the doubt though. They then must support terrorism and are anti-semitic. Sick ****s.

[El Guapo]

Israel warned them not to do it, and they did it on purpose to provoke the israelis. They deserved every bit of it... Retards.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Israel warned them not to do it, and they did it on purpose to provoke the israelis. They deserved every bit of it... Retards.

ABOARD INS KIDON, Mediterranean Sea - Israeli commandos who raided a Gaza aid ship Monday were set upon by activists with knives and clubs and some troops jumped overboard to save themselves, according to an Israeli account.

Israel said commandos opened fire in self-defense and 10 activists were killed and seven troops wounded. With Israel jamming signals and censoring media, there was little independent reporting of the events at sea.

An Israeli military spokesman said some of the commandos were equipped with paintball guns but the non-lethal weapons were not enough against activists who charged in with batons.

"They had pistols with live ammunition as back-up, to defend themselves," he said.

One of the commandos told reporters he descended by rope from a helicopter onto one of the six ships in the convoy and was immediately attacked by a group of people waiting for them.

"They beat us with metal sticks and knives," he said. "There was live fire at some point against us."

A Reuters cameraman on the Israeli navy ship Kidon close to the six-vessel aid convoy said commanders monitoring the operation were surprised by the strong resistance put up by the pro-Palestinian activists.

One of the commandos said some of the soldiers were stripped of their helmets and equipment and a number were tossed from the top deck to a lower deck and then leapt into the sea to save themselves.

"They jumped me, hit me with clubs and bottles and stole my rifle," one of the commandos said. "I pulled out my pistol and had no choice but to shoot."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37434486/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/?gt1=43001

[Cool Breeze]

I wonder what the Coast Guard would do if a flotilla of nuts wanting to drop off aid to the Mexicans in the US starting resisting arrest. Seeing as how they were warned and all.
Stupid...
Stop ****ing with Isreal and you may have a real country...

[mhgaffney]

Cool,

What are you talking about?

The aid flotilla was 65 miles off the coast of Israel -- in international waters -- when the Israeli commandos attacked.

This is a clear case of piracy on the high seas. What would YOU if heavily armed pirates tried to board YOUR ship at sea? Would you defend yourself?

This is the real question.

Also-- can you see how the pro Israeli media is re framing these events -- to make Israel's violent attack look like self defense?

Do you have a brain? Or have you surrendered your critical faculties to the boob tube?

[mhgaffney]

first off Ignore McSkillit he is just as bat **** crazy as you are ........ Look I know Israel isnt innocent , and thats the difference between you and me , you want us to believe Haamas is without blame , just out ot do humanitarian deeds ............Ghaff dont piss on my leg and tell me it is rainin ...........I ****ing know better you twit

No the difference between me and you is that I read, study, listen and learn -- trying to find out the truth - and you just shoot your big mouth off without knowing what the **** you are talking about...

BIG difference.

Listen to that radio interview -- then tell me what you think.

IF you are paying attention -- it's clear the Israelis are jamming the airwaves -- so the peace activists on the flotilla cannot communicate what is happening to the world.

Israel did the same thing in 1967 when they attacked the US naval ship -- the Liberty -- also off the Israeli coast. The ship managed to get off only one mayday distress call.

The Israelis would have sunk it - killing all 200 US sailors -- but luckily a Soviet ship happened on the scene. There was a witness -- so the Israelis pulled back.

MHG

[Spider]

No the difference between me and you is that I read, study, listen and learn -- trying to find out the truth - and you just shoot your big mouth off without knowing what the **** you are talking about...

BIG difference.

Listen to that radio interview -- then tell me what you think.

IF you are paying attention -- it's clear the Israelis are jamming the airwaves -- so the peace activists on the flotilla cannot communicate what is happening to the world.

Israel did the same thing in 1967 when they attacked the US naval ship -- the Liberty -- also off the Israeli coast. The ship managed to get off only one mayday distress call.

The Israelis would have sunk it - killing all 200 US sailors -- but luckily a Soviet ship happened on the scene. There was a witness -- so the Israelis pulled back.

MHG

LOL trying to tell if you are really this clueless , or if this is PUT ON .....Seriously getting on an unarmed ship and sailing into a blockade ............Hello genius ........

[mhgaffney]

LOL trying to tell if you are really this clueless , or if this is PUT ON .....Seriously getting on an unarmed ship and sailing into a blockade ............Hello genius ........

WTF are you talking about?

You post shows you do not understand the purpose of the flotilla. Peace activists are attempting to break Israel's 4 year siege of Gaza -- through non violent means.

These activists are heros. Their numbers include several former US government officials - who have put their lives on the line for peace. They understand that personal sacrifices will have to be made to alter the political map --- for the better.

Here's the latest update from another peace group:

Action Alert: Israeli military attacks Gaza Freedom Flotilla, 4 deaths confirmed

May 31st, 2010

Free Gaza Movement -- Israel Murders at Least 4 Unarmed Civilians on Aid Flotilla to Gaza, Dozens Injured

(Cyprus, June 1, 2010, 6:30AM local) Under darkness of night, Israeli commandos from at least 14 warships and military helicopters boarded the Turkish passenger ship, Mavi Marmara, and began shooting. According to live video from the ship, at least two civilians have been murdered, and dozens injured. Israeli television is reporting 16 civilians killed.

The Mavi Marmara was part of a 6-ship unarmed flotilla, including a U.S.-flagged vessel, carrying 700 passengers from 40 different countries and 10,000 tons of humanitarian aid on a mission of mercy to besieged Gaza.
The last GPS signal from the flotilla, sent just prior to the attack, placed the ships at latitude:32.64113, longitude:33.56727 – approximately 65 miles off the coast of Netanya, well in international waters.

Palestinian fishermen are regularly fired upon off the coast of Gaza, but these are the first Israeli murders of internationals at sea. In recent years, the Israeli military has adopted increasingly vicious policies toward international human rights workers in Palestine, murdering Rachel Corrie and Tom Hurdall in 2003.

The names of the dead are not yet known. The flotilla passengers included retired US diplomats Amb. Edward Peck and Col. Ann Wright as well as humanitarian aid and human rights workers, several Members of Parliament from Ireland, Germany, Sweden, Turkey, Malaysia, and Palestinian Members of the Knesset.

Numbers for Israeli officials:

Mark Regev in the Prime Minister’s office: +972 2670 5354 or +972 5 0620 3264
Shlomo Dror in the Ministry of Defence: +972 3697 5339 or +972 50629 8148
Major Liebovitz from the Israeli Navy: + 972 5 781 86248
The Israeli Ministry of Defense, Fax: 972-3-697-6717
The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Fax: 972-2- 5303367

[mhgaffney]

oops -- here is the link

http://icahdusa.org/2010/05/action-alert-israeli-military-attacks-gaza-freedom-flotilla-4-deaths-confirmed/

[Spider]

WTF are you talking about?

You post shows you do not understand the purpose of the flotilla. Peace activists are attempting to break Israel's 4 year siege of Gaza -- through non violent means.

These activists are heros. Their numbers include several former US government officials - who have put their lives on the line for peace. They understand that personal sacrifices will have to be made to alter the political map --- for the better.

Here's the latest update from another peace group:

Action Alert: Israeli military attacks Gaza Freedom Flotilla, 4 deaths confirmed

May 31st, 2010

Free Gaza Movement -- Israel Murders at Least 4 Unarmed Civilians on Aid Flotilla to Gaza, Dozens Injured

(Cyprus, June 1, 2010, 6:30AM local) Under darkness of night, Israeli commandos from at least 14 warships and military helicopters boarded the Turkish passenger ship, Mavi Marmara, and began shooting. According to live video from the ship, at least two civilians have been murdered, and dozens injured. Israeli television is reporting 16 civilians killed.

The Mavi Marmara was part of a 6-ship unarmed flotilla, including a U.S.-flagged vessel, carrying 700 passengers from 40 different countries and 10,000 tons of humanitarian aid on a mission of mercy to besieged Gaza.
The last GPS signal from the flotilla, sent just prior to the attack, placed the ships at latitude:32.64113, longitude:33.56727 – approximately 65 miles off the coast of Netanya, well in international waters.

Palestinian fishermen are regularly fired upon off the coast of Gaza, but these are the first Israeli murders of internationals at sea. In recent years, the Israeli military has adopted increasingly vicious policies toward international human rights workers in Palestine, murdering Rachel Corrie and Tom Hurdall in 2003.

The names of the dead are not yet known. The flotilla passengers included retired US diplomats Amb. Edward Peck and Col. Ann Wright as well as humanitarian aid and human rights workers, several Members of Parliament from Ireland, Germany, Sweden, Turkey, Malaysia, and Palestinian Members of the Knesset.

Numbers for Israeli officials:

Mark Regev in the Prime Minister’s office: +972 2670 5354 or +972 5 0620 3264
Shlomo Dror in the Ministry of Defence: +972 3697 5339 or +972 50629 8148
Major Liebovitz from the Israeli Navy: + 972 5 781 86248
The Israeli Ministry of Defense, Fax: 972-3-697-6717
The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Fax: 972-2- 5303367

LOL you can spin ...... point is they went ot break a blockade , apparently a legal one , got their collective asses kicked ..... dont **** with the big dog then bitch when you get bit ........... fine line between an Idiot and a hero

[mhgaffney]

Legal? Are you kidding me?

How is it legal?

No it is not.

Israel supposedly disengaged from Gaza back around 2003 or 2004. So why is Israel preventing Gaza from engaging in trade? Or developing their economy? Why is Israel blockading at all -- if they disengaged?

This is piracy -- on the high seas. No less. Another crime by you guessed it.

MHG

[theAPAOps5]

Good

[Spider]

Legal? Are you kidding me?

How is it legal?

No it is not.

Israel supposedly disengaged from Gaza back around 2003 or 2004. So why is Israel preventing Gaza from engaging in trade? Or developing their economy? Why is Israel blockading at all -- if they disengaged?

This is piracy -- on the high seas. No less. Another crime by you guessed it.

MHG

sure it is legal ......... they are doing aint they ?

[DenverBrit]

Legal? Are you kidding me?

How is it legal?

No it is not.

Israel supposedly disengaged from Gaza back around 2003 or 2004. So why is Israel preventing Gaza from engaging in trade? Or developing their economy? Why is Israel blockading at all -- if they disengaged?

This is piracy -- on the high seas. No less. Another crime by you guessed it.

MHG

You should help the Palestinians instead of promoting your anti-Israeli agenda.
Have you thought about raising money to buy necessities and personally taking them to Gaza? By ship, of course.
Just a thought, because you're doing no good here.

[mhgaffney]

sure it is legal ......... they are doing aint they ?

hey Spider,

You missed your calling. You should have been a comedian.

Did you see that great routine of Lenny Bruce (back in the 1950s), when he appeared on the Lawrence Welk show?

Lenny's punch line was "Arrrrrgh, I got a monkey on my back!"

Whereupon, Welk walks out and says, "That's OK. We love having animals on our show!"

[Spider]

hey Spider,

You missed your calling. You should have been a comedian.

Did you see that great routine of Lenny Bruce (back in the 1950s), when he appeared on the Lawrence Welk show?

Lenny's punch line was "Arrrrrgh, I got a monkey on my back!"

Whereupon, Welk walks out and says, "That's OK. We love having animals on our show!"
...........

[watermock]

I wonder what the Coast Guard would do if a flotilla of nuts wanting to drop off aid to the Mexicans in the US starting resisting arrest. Seeing as how they were warned and all.
Stupid...
Stop ****ing with Isreal and you may have a real country...

Gaza is not part of so called Isreal. It's more like an internment camp from hell. Gaza is Egyptian.

Last night I heard the were smuggling weapons, now, it appears they found 2 handguns.

This was clear agression. They could of inspected the ships upon arrival. Of course, by then the would of been in Egyptian/Hamas water.

Much cleaner just to pirate the ships in open water.

Regardless, it should of still gone thru the Red Cross.

Obama will make it all OK.

[cutthemdown]

I am here -- because in my opinion the peace movement for too long has preached to the choir.

After the Viet Nam debacle the peace movement should have engaged the American people in a debate about the moral dimension -- why the war was immoral. That debate never happened. Everyone wanted to forget.

Change in society can only happen when the peace movement reaches out to broader segments of society. That is why I have posted on this board -- frequented by the silent majority, right wing nut cases, knee jerks etc

What makes you think the Palestinians or the Muslims want peace?

[cutthemdown]

Gaff Israel has the right to make sure weapons aren't being smuggled in. If it wasn't for the fact the Muslims resort to killing and blowing things up then Israel wouldn't get away with being heavy handed.

[Meck77]

ABOARD INS KIDON, Mediterranean Sea - Israeli commandos who raided a Gaza aid ship Monday were set upon by activists with knives and clubs and some troops jumped overboard to save themselves, according to an Israeli account.

Israel said commandos opened fire in self-defense and 10 activists were killed and seven troops wounded. With Israel jamming signals and censoring media, there was little independent reporting of the events at sea.

An Israeli military spokesman said some of the commandos were equipped with paintball guns but the non-lethal weapons were not enough against activists who charged in with batons.

"They had pistols with live ammunition as back-up, to defend themselves," he said.

One of the commandos told reporters he descended by rope from a helicopter onto one of the six ships in the convoy and was immediately attacked by a group of people waiting for them.

"They beat us with metal sticks and knives," he said. "There was live fire at some point against us."

A Reuters cameraman on the Israeli navy ship Kidon close to the six-vessel aid convoy said commanders monitoring the operation were surprised by the strong resistance put up by the pro-Palestinian activists.

One of the commandos said some of the soldiers were stripped of their helmets and equipment and a number were tossed from the top deck to a lower deck and then leapt into the sea to save themselves.

"They jumped me, hit me with clubs and bottles and stole my rifle," one of the commandos said. "I pulled out my pistol and had no choice but to shoot."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37434486/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/?gt1=43001


You'd have to be a complete idiot to believe Israel commandos could not defend themselves from some peace activists. Come on people.

[Rigs11]

goota love the israel sympathizers around here.they are never at fault right? they constantly pull this crap and the US goes along like a little lost puppy. But remember folks the mean ol terrorists hate us because they hate freedom.

[watermock]

And the body count?

Regardless, the flotilla should of had a crecent red cross in front.

[watermock]

An Israeli military spokesman said some of the commandos were equipped with paintball guns but the non-lethal weapons were not enough against activists who charged in with batons.



Yep, the IDF came down from heli's with paint guns.

It's comical.

[sirhcyennek81]

A few things.

Why send "aid" ships when the Palestinians do not require it? They get food and medicine overland through Israel. Also...Gaza shares a border with Egypt. So clearly Egypt is involved with the embargo as well...which makes you wonder why would they do that? Could it possibly have anything to do with Hamas sending BS "aid" ships into the Gaza strip so they could get weapons to the PLA? Of course not. Israel is the big meanie here. And why am I not shocked the UN security council condemns Israel for self defense but has not done jack **** in regards to North Korea?

Also not surprised the OP posted this. In the world according to gaff-o the Israelis did 9/11, secretly funded Timothy McVeigh, made a US spyplane crash in China and is directly responsible for grilled chicken at KFC.

:Broncos:

[epicSocialism4tw]

The "aid ship" was just a propaganda ploy by a boat full of Gaffneys who wanted to provoke Israel into stopping them at the blockade. Heck, Gaffney prpbably works for these anti-Semitic losers.

Israel and Egypt blockade Gaza because Hamas tries to sneak weapons in there. Israel warned them not to approach the blockade, and they refused. You can all see the soldiers being mobbed as they board the ship. These "peace activists" were violent offenders who only wanted to provoke Israel into attacking them so they could spin the story and create furor against Israel.

Israel has the right to protect their citizens.

[Rigs11]

didn't the flotilla have aid and passengers from 20 nations?

[epicSocialism4tw]

didn't the flotilla have aid and passengers from 20 nations?

Is Gaffney from Syria? Iran?

These kooks and nutjobs are from all over the world. And they only help to escalate violence, not to promote peace.

[BroncoLifer]

You'd have to be a complete idiot to believe Israel commandos could not defend themselves from some peace activists. Come on people.

You come on. The Israelis were operating under very strict Rules of Engagement, thereby in fact, yes, making it difficult to protect themselves from the terrorists-lite that you call peace activists.

[Broncojef]

The Israelis are constantly being bombarded by Palestinians firing rockets and missiles at their towns in Gaza. They set up a blockade and monitor all traffic to try and control illegal crap coming in so the bad guys don't pummel their streets. If a foriegn government continued to bomb us from the same location using the same techniques even Obama might be able to figure out a blockade to keep the rockets out would be good. This boat was full of IHH members a radical far left muslim organization trying to take control of Turkey and eradicate Israel and the United States. Their mission was that of a kamikazee mission. If they break the blockade they are heros and if they get the snot kicked out of them the liberal media spins in their anti-semetic way to show Israel as a radical country. Israel is being set-up plain and simple and its nauseating to see a friend and allie get beat-up as we stand back and let them take it on the chin. Another testament to Barrack being a muslim and treating our friends as enemies. This was not an aide flotilla any more than if a 911 terrorist had written "I love the USA" as he had flown it into the twin towers. These people are absolute morons and bent on our destruction and it gets a little old to hear how bad we and Israel are and for media types to keep standing for the wrong side and Americans reading the BS they publish.

[Cito Pelon]

You'd have to be a complete idiot to believe Israel commandos could not defend themselves from some peace activists. Come on people.

Oh, here we go. Meck77 the total Israel hater. I knew as certain as I'll die I'd see Meck77 bashing Israel on this thread. There was absolutely no doubt about it.

Meck, you have an agenda against Israel. Anytime and everytime you have a chance to attack Israel, you do so. You and I have been at it a long time over this same subject. There is no doubt you hate Israel, you have an agenda against Jews.

There's no doubt about it. Anytime Israel is mentioned, you rabidly attack the Jews. Every - single - time.

[Cito Pelon]

It's funny in a twisted sort of way that Christians would support Muslims. Muslim countries consider Christians as second-class citizens, tolerated only, but never allowed to be among the elite. And Jews? Muslim countries consider them only to be tolerated as slaves, and allow only a small percentage of their population to be Jews.

If the Jews happen to have children, well, the Muslims have no problem killing the children. They're just Jews, right Meck?

[sirhcyennek81]

It's funny in a twisted sort of way that Christians would support Muslims. Muslim countries consider Christians as second-class citizens, tolerated only, but never allowed to be among the elite. And Jews? Muslim countries consider them only to be tolerated as slaves, and allow only a small percentage of their population to be Jews.

If the Jews happen to have children, well, the Muslims have no problem killing the children. They're just Jews, right Meck?

But but but...only in the last 50 years. Muslims have ALWAYS loved Jews. Just ask them.


:Broncos:

[mhgaffney]

Is Gaffney from Syria? Iran?

These kooks and nutjobs are from all over the world. And they only help to escalate violence, not to promote peace.

Kooks? You are clueless.

The peace activists on the boats include many distinguished people. This includes one Nobel Peace Prize winner, at least two former US government officials, numerous members of the Parliaments of various nations, a former member of the Israeli Knesset, and even former UN officials.

For example, I just learned that Dennis Halliday, the former UNSCOM weapons inspector for Iraq, was on one of the ships.

Israel just engaged in a terrorist attack on the high seas. That basically sums up what happened.

[mhgaffney]

You come on. The Israelis were operating under very strict Rules of Engagement, thereby in fact, yes, making it difficult to protect themselves from the terrorists-lite that you call peace activists.

The Israelis attacked unarmed people on the high seas. It was a clear case of piracy -- or terrorism -- take you pick.

We have seen the same thing many times before -- yet the Israel-friendly media invariably turn it around and give it "a positive spin."

The problem, this tome is that the latest case is so transparent you'd have to be really stupid -- or totally brainwashed -- to view what just happened as Israel defending itself.

Please turn off your TV and start using that thing between your ears that God gave you.

[mhgaffney]

BTW, Gaffney is an Irish name.

[mhgaffney]

What makes you think the Palestinians or the Muslims want peace?

The fact that all of the Arab states signed on to the 2002 Saudi peace offer to Israel.

http://www.al-bab.com/arab/docs/league/peace02.htm

Iran and Hezbollah have made it clear they will support whatever peace settlement the Palestinians agree to.

The rest of the world also supports this approach.

The only states who do not support it are Israel and its benefactor, the US.

Cut, you are typical of this board. You guys cannot plead ignorance. I've posted this numerous times.

Israel has treated the Arab peace offer with contempt.

I should add though that time is running out. The peace offer has been on the table for 8 years. Recently, one of the Saudi leaders warned that if Israel and the US do not respond -- at some point the peace offer will be withdrawn.

I suspect the Arabs will withdraw the offer by the end of this year. Patience has pretty much run out with the US and Israel. We have shown that we are committed to violence -- period.

Obama is a weakling -- and does not have the political clout to pressure Israel to negotiate a compromise

The region from Palestine to Pakistan is a powder keg. It can explode at any time.

You clowns show what idiots you are on this board -- time and time again.

[sirhcyennek81]

The fact that all of the Arab states signed on to the 2002 Saudi peace offer to Israel.

http://www.al-bab.com/arab/docs/league/peace02.htm

Iran and Hezbollah have made it clear they will support whatever peace settlement the Palestinians agree to.

The rest of the world also supports this approach.

The only states who do not support it are Israel and its benefactor, the US.

Cut, you are typical of this board. You guys cannot plead ignorance. I've posted this numerous times.

Israel has treated the Arab peace offer with contempt.

I should add though that time is running out. The peace offer has been on the table for 8 years. Recently, one of the Saudi leaders warned that if Israel and the US do not respond -- at some point the peace offer will be withdrawn.

I suspect the Arabs will withdraw the offer by the end of this year. Patience has pretty much run out with the US and Israel. We have shown that we are committed to violence -- period.

Obama is a weakling -- and does not have the political clout to pressure Israel to negotiate a compromise

The region from Palestine to Pakistan is a powder keg. It can explode at any time.

You clowns show what idiots you are on this board -- time and time again.


You know that Israel offered to split Jerusalem, give immediate statehood to the palestinians and a remove settlements in the west bank, and hamas and the pla refused?

Or does that not fit into the hate Israel narrative you supply daily?

:Broncos:

[mhgaffney]

There was no such offer.

Where did you hear that nonsense? On FOX?

[W*GS]

BTW, Gaffney is an Irish name.

Don't let the Irish hear about you. They'll kick your ass.

[mhgaffney]

The double speak used by the NY Times in the following article is chilling. Heavily armed Israeli commandos stage a terrorist attack on the high seas -- yet are described as "defending themselves" when some people resist the illegal seizure of their vessel.

You can hear Orwell rolling over in his grave.

Israel Holds Hundreds Seized During Raid on Flotilla
By ISABEL KERSHNER and ALAN COWELL
New York Times: June 1, 2010

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/02/world/middleeast/02flotilla.html?hp


JERUSALEM — A day after Israeli commandos raided an aid flotilla seeking to breach the blockade of Gaza, Israel held more than 600 activists seized aboard the convoy on Tuesday as news reports said activists may be planning a fresh attempt to ferry supplies to the Hamas-run enclave.

As international pressure mounted for Israel to end its blockade, Egypt’s president ordered a temporary reopening of its border with Gaza to allow humanitarian and medical aid to reach the 1.5 million people there.

Hours earlier, the Israeli military said troops clashed with two militants who infiltrated from Gaza, killing them both. While such occurrences are almost routine along the volatile border between Israel and Gaza, the clash underscored the tensions seizing the region after Monday’s confrontation at sea, which strained relations between Israel and the United States just as American-sponsored proximity talks involving Palestinians and Israelis were getting under way.

There was little sign Tuesday that international criticism of Israel was easing.

In the early hours of the morning, after protracted wrangling, the United Nations Security Council condemned “acts” leading to the loss of life in Israel’s operation in international waters on Monday, which had claimed the lives of nine civilians, many of them Turks aboard a Turkish vessel. The Security Council also urged an impartial inquiry — a call echoed in a separate forum by Russia and the European Union on Tuesday at a meeting of senior officials in the southern Russian city of Rostov-on-Don.

For its part, Turkey, once seen as Israel’s most important friend in the Muslim world, recalled its ambassador on Monday and canceled planned military exercises with Israel as the countries’ already tense relations soured even further. On Tuesday, Israel announced that four of the nine killed in the military operation were Turkish citizens, the Anatolian News Agency reported.

Turkish animosity seemed to deepen.

“This irresponsible, heedless, unlawful attitude that defies any human virtue should definitely, but definitely, be punished,” Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said in his regular weekly address to his party in the capital, Ankara.

“No one should dare to challenge Turkey or test her patience for that the strength of Turkey’s animosity is as strong as the value of its friendship.”

In a speech often interrupted by loud applause, Mr. Erdogan called on Israel to end the embargo on Gaza and asked the Israeli people to rise against the violent policies of their government. And Egypt’s official Middle East News Service said that President Hosni Mubarak was moving to temporarily reopen the Rafah border crossing — the only crossing not controlled by Israel — to “alleviate the suffering of the Palestinian people in the besieged Gaza Strip.”

Egypt has kept its border with Gaza largely sealed since Hamas seized power there in 2007.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel, meanwhile, was flying home after canceling a Tuesday meeting with President Obama.

Mr. Netanyahu has defended the Israeli military’s actions, saying the commandos, enforcing what Israel says is a legal blockade, were set upon by passengers on the Turkish ship they boarded and fired only in self-defense. The military released a video of the early moments of the raid to support that claim.

Israel said the violence was instigated by pro-Palestinian activists who presented themselves as humanitarians but had come ready for a fight. Organizers of the flotilla accused the Israeli forces of opening fire as soon as they landed on the deck, and released videos to support their case. On Tuesday, activists promised more confrontation. Greta Berlin of the Free Gaza Movement, which organized the flotilla, said that another cargo boat was heading to Gaza from the coast of Italy while a second boat carrying some 35 passengers was expected to join it, The Associated Press reported.

“This initiative is not going to stop,” Ms. Berlin said from the group’s base in Cyprus. “We think eventually Israel will get some kind of common sense. They’re going to have to stop the blockade of Gaza, and one of the ways to do this is for us to continue to send the boats.”

An Israeli police spokesman, Micky Rosenfeld, said 634 activists, mostly from the Turkish passenger ship, who had refused to identify themselves were being detained at a prison in southern Israel, where they were awaiting deportation procedures. Forty-five others had agreed to identify themselves and were being deported.

Immigration officials said the people to be deported included Henning Mankell, a best-selling Swedish author.

While the Israeli public seemed largely to support the navy, policy experts questioned preparations for the military operation, whether there had been an intelligence failure and whether the Israeli insistence on stopping the flotilla had been counterproductive. Some commentators were calling for the resignation of Ehud Barak, the defense minister.

“The government failed the test of results; blaming the organizers of the flotilla for causing the deaths by ignoring Israel’s orders to turn back is inadequate,” wrote Aluf Benn, a columnist for Haaretz, on the newspaper’s Web site on Monday, calling for a national committee of inquiry. “Decisions taken by the responsible authorities must be probed.”

The flotilla of six cargo ships and passenger boats was carrying 10,000 tons of aid for Gaza. But the raid and its deadly consequences have thrown Israel’s policy of blockading Gaza into the international limelight. The statement by the United Nations Security Council early on Tuesday stressed “the need for sustained and regular flow of goods and people to Gaza.”

Israel had vowed not to let the flotilla reach the shores of Gaza, held by Hamas, an organization sworn to Israel’s destruction.

Named the Freedom Flotilla, and led by the pro-Palestinian Free Gaza Movement and a Turkish organization, Insani Yardim Vakfi, the convoy had converged at sea near Cyprus and set out on the final leg of its journey on Sunday afternoon. Israel warned the vessels to abort their mission, describing it as a provocation.

The confrontation began shortly before midnight on Sunday when Israeli warships intercepted the aid flotilla, according to a person on one boat. The Israeli military warned the vessels that they were entering a hostile area and that the Gaza shore was under blockade.

The vessels refused the military’s request to dock at the Israeli port of Ashdod, north of Gaza, and continued toward their destination.

Around 4 a.m. Monday, naval commandos came aboard the Turkish ship, the Mavi Marmara, having been lowered by ropes from helicopters onto the decks.

At that point, the operation seems to have gone badly wrong.

Israeli officials say that the soldiers were dropped into an ambush and were attacked with clubs, metal rods and knives.

An Israeli official said that the navy was planning to stop five of the six vessels of the flotilla with large nets that interfere with propellers, but that the sixth was too large for that. The official said there was clearly an intelligence failure in that the commandos were expecting to face passive resistance, and not an angry, violent reaction.

The Israelis had planned to commandeer the vessels and steer them to Ashdod, where their cargo would be unloaded and, the authorities said, transferred overland to Gaza after inspection.

The military said in a statement that two activists were later found with pistols taken from Israeli commandos. It accused the activists of opening fire, “as evident by the empty pistol magazines.”

Another soldier said the orders were to neutralize the passengers, not to kill them.

But the forces “had to open fire in order to defend themselves,” the navy commander, Vice Adm. Eliezer Marom, said at a news conference in Tel Aviv, adding, “Their lives were at risk.”

At least seven soldiers were wounded, one of them seriously. The military said that some suffered gunshot wounds; at least one had been stabbed.

Einat Wilf, a Labor Party member of Parliament who sits on the influential Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, said that she had warned Mr. Barak and others well in advance that the flotilla was a public relations issue and should not be dealt with by military means.

The fatalities all occurred aboard the Mavi Marmara, a Turkish passenger vessel that was carrying about 600 activists under the auspices of Insani Yardim Vakfi, an organization also known as I.H.H. Israeli officials have characterized it as a dangerous Islamic organization with terrorist links.

Yet the organization, founded in 1992 to collect aid for the Bosnians, is now active in 120 countries and has been present at recent disaster areas like Haiti and New Orleans.

“Our volunteers were not trained military personnel,” said Yavuz Dede, deputy director of the organization. “They were civilians trying to get aid to Gaza. There were artists, intellectuals and journalists among them. Such an offensive cannot be explained by any terms.”

There were no immediate accounts available from the passengers of the Turkish ship, which arrived at the naval base in Ashdod on Monday evening, where nearly three dozen were arrested, many for not giving their names. The base was off limits to the news media and declared a closed military zone.

The Free Gaza Movement has organized several aid voyages since the summer of 2008, usually consisting of one or two vessels. The earliest ones were allowed to reach Gaza. Others have been intercepted and forced back, and one, last June, was commandeered by the Israeli Navy and towed to Ashdod. This six-boat fleet was the most ambitious attempt yet to break the blockade.


[Isabel Kershner reported from Jerusalem, and Alan Cowell from London. Reporting was contributed by Sebnem Arsu from Istanbul; Dina Kraft from Tel Aviv; Rina Castelnuovo from Ashdod, Israel; Fares Akram from Gaza; Mona El-Naggar from Cairo; and Neil MacFarquhar from the United Nations.]

[W*GS]

The fact that all of the Arab states signed on to the 2002 Saudi peace offer to Israel.

The offer was disingenuous given the Passover Massacre.

That terrorist attack is something gaff-o doesn't want to talk about or mention. He's deluded himself into believing it was all a Jew plot, too.

I'm just about willing to set up a bank account so we can collect some money and send gaff-o to Iran, where he'll be welcomed with open arms.

[W*GS]

Hey gaff-o!

How many Jews died in the Holocaust?

(Pssst - how many Jews really died in the Holocaust?)

Answer or shut the **** up.

[DenverBrit]

Gaffney, did you watch the videos of the boarding, or are you just being your usual stupid self??

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<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z2duPV9MQIc&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Z2duPV9MQIc&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[sirhcyennek81]

Hey gaff-o!

How many Jews died in the Holocaust?

(Pssst - how many Jews really died in the Holocaust?)

Answer or shut the **** up.


Conservative estimates put the total number of the holocaust at 12 million. It could have been as high as 15 million total. (Jews, gypsies, physically/mentally infirm, gays, Catholics, slavs, poles). The consensus appears to be roughly 6 million Jews or nearly half of the world wide population of jews in the 1930s and 40s.

:Broncos:

[DenverBrit]

The double speak used by the NY Times in the following article is chilling. Heavily armed Israeli commandos stage a terrorist attack on the high seas -- yet are described as "defending themselves" when some people resist the illegal seizure of their vessel.



LOL
Paint guns and pistols. You really are a twerp, Gaffney.

[W*GS]

Conservative estimates put the total number of the holocaust at 12 million. It could have been as high as 15 million total. (Jews, gypsies, physically/mentally infirm, gays, Catholics, slavs, poles). The consensus appears to be roughly 6 million Jews or nearly half of the world wide population of jews in the 1930s and 40s.

Those are the facts.

I say we give equal time to gaff-o's beliefs that those numbers are wrong.

[El Minion]

Oh, here we go. Meck77 the total Israel hater. I knew as certain as I'll die I'd see Meck77 bashing Israel on this thread. There was absolutely no doubt about it.

Meck, you have an agenda against Israel. Anytime and everytime you have a chance to attack Israel, you do so. You and I have been at it a long time over this same subject. There is no doubt you hate Israel, you have an agenda against Jews.

There's no doubt about it. Anytime Israel is mentioned, you rabidly attack the Jews. Every - single - time.

Why is it if anyone is critical of Israel they are immediately labeled an anti-semite, or if jew is criticizing Israel they are labeled as self-hating jews?

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[sirhcyennek81]

Those are the facts.

I say we give equal time to gaff-o's beliefs that those numbers are wrong.


I agree. It does not make him any less wrong.

:kiss:


:Broncos:

[mhgaffney]

hey Brit,

When pirates descend from helicopters to illegally seize ships on the high seas -- are you telling me the people on the ships who are being attacked -- are guilty for not knowing that the attackers are only armed with paint guns?

And if they were only paint guns -- then why are 70 innocent people in the hospital?

You are hypnotized by the media. Please turn off the boob tube-- and use the brain between your ears.

[mhgaffney]

Excuse me. This thread is not about the Holocaust.

We are talking about Israeli terrorism on the high seas. Do you deny it was terrorism?

[mhgaffney]

The offer was disingenuous given the Passover Massacre.

That terrorist attack is something gaff-o doesn't want to talk about or mention. He's deluded himself into believing it was all a Jew plot, too.

I'm just about willing to set up a bank account so we can collect some money and send gaff-o to Iran, where he'll be welcomed with open arms.

Disingenuous?

Look who's talking. You are the most disingenuous poster on the OM.

You (and Israel) have never responded to the 2002 Arab peace offer - except with contempt. If you don't respond to peace offers you are not in a position to criticize them.

The only way to know if they are bona fide is to respond in kind.

[sirhcyennek81]

Excuse me. This thread is not about the Holocaust.

We are talking about Israeli terrorism on the high seas. Do you deny it was terrorism?


Yes.

Nations board vessels all the time outside of territorial waters. Usually with the belief that the boarded vessel has some form of contraband. The Israeli navy stopping a boat from Turkey paid for by a group with terror ties is enough reason to stop and search.

But keep spinning it, giggles.

:Broncos:

[W*GS]

Excuse me. This thread is not about the Holocaust.

Answer the question.

Prove to us that you're not a neo-Nazi.

[W*GS]

If you don't respond to peace offers you are not in a position to criticize them.

Show us that you know what the Passover Massacre was.

Give us the facts about it.

[mhgaffney]

This incident will not be the last - the situation appears ready to escalate.

Israel is now saying it will use MORE force next time.

Turkey is saying it will send military ships to accompany the next aid flotilla. To protect them from Israeli attack.

[sirhcyennek81]

This incident will not be the last - the situation appears ready to escalate.

Israel is now saying it will use MORE force next time.

Turkey is saying it will send military ships to accompany the next aid flotilla. To protect them from Israeli attack.


The Turks can try,


:Broncos:

[W*GS]

Answer my direct question with a direct answer, gaff-o.

How many Jews died in the Holocaust?

Show us you're not neo-Nazi filth.

If you refuse to answer, you are indeed a Nazi.

[mhgaffney]

Yes.

Nations board vessels all the time outside of territorial waters. Usually with the belief that the boarded vessel has some form of contraband. The Israeli navy stopping a boat from Turkey paid for by a group with terror ties is enough reason to stop and search.

But keep spinning it, giggles.

:Broncos:

All the time? BS.

Terror ties? Where did you see that? On FOX? CNN?

This was a humanitarian aid flotilla. The Turkish PM stated that all the ships were searched BEFORE they were allowed to depart Cyprus. They were carrying food, medicine, wheel chairs (for the Palestinians whose legs were blown off by Israel in January 2009), cement and building supplies, etc

Wake up to the world -- Sircy

[mhgaffney]

hey W*gs,

You won't succeed in hijacking this thread-- as the Israelis hijacked those aid ships.

Wag more. Bark Less.

[SoCalBronco]

Yes.

Nations board vessels all the time outside of territorial waters. Usually with the belief that the boarded vessel has some form of contraband. The Israeli navy stopping a boat from Turkey paid for by a group with terror ties is enough reason to stop and search.

But keep spinning it, giggles.

:Broncos:

Contraband? Are you on drugs?

The mere fact that this boat was coming from Turkey and was paid for by a group with terror ties does not justify the inference that it may have contained contraband.

The more plausible conclusion is that it was probably was filled with smiles and hugs and strawberry twizzlers.

Come on Gaff...help me out...educate these people.

[W*GS]

Answer my direct question with a direct answer, gaff-o.

How many Jews died in the Holocaust?

Show us you're not neo-Nazi filth.

If you refuse to answer, you are indeed a Nazi.

You got one more chance, arseface.

[W*GS]

Well, gaff-o?

What's your answer?

Refuse and you're a proven Nazi.

[El Guapo]

...cement and building supplies, etc



Which are items that are not allowed.

[mhgaffney]

Contraband? Are you on drugs?

The mere fact that this boat was coming from Turkey and was paid for by a group with terror ties does not justify the inference that it may have contained contraband.

The more plausible conclusion is that it was probably was filled with smiles and hugs and strawberry twizzlers.

Come on Gaff...help me out...educate these people.

Terror ties?

Nonsense. Where did you see this?

This is the standard Zionist procedure -- muddy the waters with lies and/or disinfo - to plant a seed of doubt in the minds of ordinary people who are not sophisticated -- and who do not know the history.

No.

This was a flotilla of peace activists. Loaded with humanitarian aid for the starving people of Gaza.

That's the truth. The only thing that keeps the people of Gaza alive is international aid.

If you have evidence this was a terror armada -- please post it.

[DenverBrit]

hey Brit,

When pirates descend from helicopters to illegally seize ships on the high seas -- are you telling me the people on the ships who are being attacked -- are guilty for not knowing that the attackers are only armed with paint guns?

And if they were only paint guns -- then why are 70 innocent people in the hospital?

You are hypnotized by the media. Please turn off the boob tube-- and use the brain between your ears.

I asked you if you watched the video, not would you preach.
I see people descending one at a time and getting a severe beating as they land.

What did you see?? Not what you think, what you see. Ok?

[mhgaffney]

I watched the video.

Do you deny that the descending Israeli commandos were attacking the ship? Do you deny they proceeded to hijack it -- and the other five ships -- on the high seas?

If pirates attacked your ship on the high seas -- what would YOU do?

Get real.

[mhgaffney]

As the posts on this thread show -- people can look at a terrorist attack and see something completely opposite. The human capacity for self delusion boggles the mind. Of course, it is enhanced and greatly magnified by the deceitful corporate media.

The US is now like Stalinist Russia -- in the grip of evil forces. Orwell was right.

And so is Paul Craig Roberts. Yes, in this latest raid Israel attacked many of its own citizens. Numerous Israeli peace activists were on board those ships.

He is also correct that America is complicit.

MHG

June 1, 2010

Barbarism on the High Seas

America's Complicity in Evil

By PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS

As I write at 5pm on Monday, May 31, all day has passed since the early morning reports of the Israeli commando attack on the unarmed ships carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza, and there has been no response from President Obama except to say that he needed to learn “all the facts about this morning’s tragic events” and that Israeli prime minister Netanyahu had canceled his plans to meet with him at the White House. Thus has Obama made America complicit once again in Israel’s barbaric war crimes. Just as the US Congress voted to deep-six Judge Goldstone’s report on Israel’s war crimes committed in Israel’s January 2009 invasion of Gaza, Obama has deep-sixed Israel’s latest act of barbarism by pretending that he doesn’t know what has happened.

No one in the world will believe that Israel attacked ships in international waters carrying Israeli citizens, a Nobel Laureate, elected politicians, and noted humanitarians bringing medicines and building materials to Palestinians in Gaza, who have been living in the rubble of their homes without repairs or medicines since January 2009, without first clearing the crime with its American protector. Without America’s protection, Israel, a totally artificial state, could not exist. No one in the world will believe that America’s spy apparatus did not detect the movement of the Israeli attack force toward the aid ships in international waters in an act of piracy, killing 20, wounding 50, and kidnapping the rest. Obama’s pretense at ignorance confirms his complicity.

Once again the US government has permitted the Israeli state to murder good people known for their moral conscience. The Israeli state has declared that anyone with a moral conscience is an enemy of Israel, and every American president except Eisenhower and Carter has agreed.

Obama’s 12-hour silence in the face of extreme barbarity is his signal to the controlled corporate media to remain on the sidelines until Israeli propaganda sets the story.

The Israeli story, preposterous as always, is that the humanitarians on one of the ships took two pistols from Israeli commandos, highly trained troops armed with automatic weapons, and fired on the attack force. The Israeli government claims that the commandos’ response (70 casualties at last reporting) was justified self-defense. Israel was innocent. Israel did not do anything except drop commandos aboard from helicopters in order to intercept an arms shipment to Gazans being brought in by ships manned by terrorists.

Many Christian evangelicals, brainwashed by their pastors that it is God’s will for Americans to protect Israel, will believe the Israeli story, especially when it is unlikely they will ever hear any other. Conservative Americans, especially on Memorial Day when they are celebrating feats of American arms, will admire Israel for its toughness. Here in north Georgia where I am at the moment, I have heard several say, admiringly, “Them, Israelis, they don’t put up with nuthin.”

Conservative Americans want the US to be like Israel. They do not understand why the US doesn’t stop pissing around after nine years and just go ahead and defeat the Taliban in Afghanistan. They don’t understand why the US didn’t defeat whoever was opposing American forces in Iraq. Conservatives are incensed that America had to “win” the war by buying off the Iraqis and putting them on the US payroll. Israel murders people and then blames its victims. This appeals to American conservatives, who want the US to do the same.

It is likely that Americans will accept Israeli propagandist Mark Regev’s story that Israelis were met by deadly fire when they tried to intercept an arms shipment to Palestinian terrorists from IHH, a radical Turkish Islamist organization hiding under the cover of humanitarian aid.

Americans will never hear from the US media that Turkey’s prime minister Erdogan declared that the aid ships were carefully inspected before departure from Turkey and that there were no terrorists or arms aboard: "I want to say to the world, to the heads of state and the governments, that these boats that left from Turkey and other countries were checked in a strict way under the framework of the rules of international navigation and were only loaded with humanitarian aid."

Turkey is a US ally, a member of NATO. Turkey’s cooperation is important to American’s plan for world hegemony. Erdogan must wonder about the morality of Israel’s American protector. According to a report in antiwar.com, the Turkish government declared that “future aid ships will be dispatched with a military escort so as to prevent future Israeli attacks.” Will the CIA assassinate Erdogan or pay the Turkish military to overthrow him? Murat Mercan, head of Turkey’s foreign relations committee, said that Israel’s claim that there were terrorists aboard the aid ships was Israel’s way of covering up its crime.

Mercan declared: "Any allegation that the members of this ship is attached to al-Qaeda is a big lie because there are Israeli civilians, Israeli authorities, Israeli parliamentarians on board the ship."

The criminal Israeli state does not deny its act of piracy. Israeli military spokeswoman, Avital Leibovich, confirmed that the attack took place in international waters: “This happened in waters outside of Israeli territory, but we have the right to defend ourselves.” Americans, and their Western European puppet states and the puppet state in Canada, will be persuaded by the servile media to buy the story fabricated by Israeli propaganda that the humanitarian aid ships were manned by terrorists bringing weapons to the Palestinians in Gaza, and that the terrorists posing as humanitarians attacked the force of Israeli commandos with two pistols, clubs, and knives. Many Americans will swallow this story without a hiccup.

Paul Craig Roberts was an editor of the Wall Street Journal and an Assistant Secretary of the U.S. Treasury. His latest book, HOW THE ECONOMY WAS LOST, has just been published by CounterPunch/AK Press. He can be reached at: PaulCraigRoberts@yahoo.com

[DenverBrit]

I watched the video.

Do you deny that the descending Israeli commandos were attacking the ship? Do you deny they proceeded to hijack it -- and the other five ships -- on the high seas?

If pirates attacked your ship on the high seas -- what would YOU do?

Get real.

You just can't report what you see without preaching your agenda.

Your prejudice is apparent each time you post about Israel.

Everyone knows that when you mess with them, they will act violently, often it's overkill. Despite that, activists still insist on testing them over and over. Only a political solution will work, nothing else. Trying to run the blockade was risky and potentially dangerous and until an investigation is concluded, we won't know the facts. So stop pretending you know what happened, you don't.

In fact, you can't even relate what you see in a video with your own eyes.

You're a lousy witness.

[watermock]

Why was Netanyahoo in washington and Big O in Chitown?

[mhgaffney]

You just can't report what you see without preaching your agenda.

Your prejudice is apparent each time you post about Israel.

Everyone knows that when you mess with them, they will act violently, often it's overkill. Despite that, activists still insist on testing them over and over. Only a political solution will work, nothing else. Trying to run the blockade was risky and potentially dangerous and until an investigation is concluded, we won't know the facts. So stop pretending you know what happened, you don't.

In fact, you can't even relate what you see in a video with your own eyes.

You're a lousy witness.

No. No. And No.

I saw people on that ship -- probably emotional Turks -- trying to fight off an attack by heavily armed Israeli commandos. They were using whatever they had available -- batons -- whatever.

Do you deny this was self defense?

Your bigger problem is that you do not understand what is happening. You are unaware -- like most Americans -- of the dire situation on the ground in Gaza. The place is an open air prison -- the largest concentration camp on the planet.

1.5 million Palestinian refugees facing starvation -- and continual violence and harassment by Israel, which controls its borders -- including the sea -- and has doomed these people to utter misery.

Why? Because they are Palestinians. This is collective punishment -- and is illegal under international law.

We in America are largely responsible for this travesty. We helped create it. We have a responsibility to try to fix it.

That is what the aid flotilla was about. That is why so many distinguished people were on those ships.

It is imperative that we break the blockade of Gaza.

[watermock]

Yes.

Nations board vessels all the time outside of territorial waters. Usually with the belief that the boarded vessel has some form of contraband. The Israeli navy stopping a boat from Turkey paid for by a group with terror ties is enough reason to stop and search.

But keep spinning it, giggles.

:Broncos:

Last night, I heard they were smuiggling WMD.

I'm sure the IDF could produce some rockets at the very least.

[theAPAOps5]

good

[epicSocialism4tw]

Gaffney, did you watch the videos of the boarding, or are you just being your usual stupid self??

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It looks like Gaffney's people showed their true colors: terrorists.

[watermock]

[Originally Posted by sirhcyennek81
Yes.

Nations board vessels all the time outside of territorial waters. Usually with the belief that the boarded vessel has some form of contraband. The Israeli navy stopping a boat from Turkey paid for by a group with terror ties is enough reason to stop and search.

But keep spinning it, giggles.


How amusing.

If I'd been on that ship with a stinger, I'd of shot the copter down as piracy.

[mhgaffney]

This is not the first time this has happened. Last year -- Israel rammed an aid ship on its way to Gaza. See this link.

http://www.sfbayview.com/2009/israeli-gunboats-ram-boat-carrying-cynthia-mckinney-the-people’s-secretary-of-state/

And let us not forget Israel's 1967 unprovoked attack on the USS Liberty -- a US intelligence ship which was at anchor about 20 miles of the Gaza -- Sinai coast during the six day war, in June 1967.

That attack killed 30+ US sailors - and wounded more than 100 -- yet was covered up -- and has never to this day been acknowledged.

The incredible thing is that in spite of the fact that Israel attacked the US during that war -- Israel was rewarded (punished?) with a spigot of aid and military arms that soon totaled at least $3 billion a year. The spigot remains open as we speak.

Unbelievable.

So what's the lesson? Attack the US and be punished with a blank check. Only the Zionists could get away with this.

Don't believe it? Check this out:

http://www.gtr5.com/

[JPEZ]

Brog's BlogMay 31, 2010
Here we go again
Filed under: All Posts — brogsblog @ 11:40 pm

Like most of you, I awoke this morning to the disturbing news that Israeli commandos had raided a flotilla of “peaceful” ships trying to bring food to the residents of Gaza. In their “brazen” assault, the Israelis had killed at least ten “peace activists.” Oh no, I feared, perhaps some of those young Israeli soldiers finally snapped under the pressure. This time, they went too far. They had spilled the blood of those who had chosen the path of peace.

Then the facts of what actually happened began to emerge. As they did so, it became increasingly apparent that the Israelis had acted in self defense, after repeated attempts to avert violence had been ignored. And it also became clear that once again Israel’s side of the story was neither obvious nor simple. It takes an open mind and knowledge of the facts to understand what led to today’s tragedy at sea. Lacking both, most observers issued their guilty verdict against Israel the minute the death toll was announced.

First of all, this “humanitarian” flotilla was, at best, a cynical PR stunt. There is no food shortage in Gaza. Israel maintains an open corridor for the transfer of food to Gaza, and this route is used daily by legitimate relief organizations including the United Nations and the Red Cross. Over the last 18 months, well over a million tons of humanitarian supplies have entered Gaza from Israel. This equals almost a ton of aid for every man, woman and child in Gaza.

Secondly, the Israelis offered the flotilla a peaceful way to resolve the conflict. They proposed that the ships dock at Israel’s southern port of Ashdod and unload their cargo there. The Israelis pledged to transfer all truly humanitarian cargo to Gaza. They simply wanted to screen the cargo first so that they could ensure that no arms or explosives were hidden among the food and other legitimate items. This offer was flatly rejected.

Only then — when faced with the declared intention of these ships to break Israel’s security blockade of Gaza – did Israel decide to board the ships and bring them to Ashdod by force. To do otherwise would have been to allow Israel’s opponents to dictate Israel’s security policy. The Gaza strip is controlled by Hamas, a terrorist organization openly committed to Israel’s destruction. As the constant smuggling of arms and rockets into Gaza – and their repeated use by Hamas — makes clear, Israel has every right and reason to screen shipments going into Gaza.

So long as the Israeli soldiers who boarded these boats were met by peaceful protests, no one was hurt. Of the six ships in the flotilla, Israeli naval forces boarded five of them without incident. Only on one ship – the Marmara — did Israeli soldiers harm passengers. Why did they do so? As videos taken by Israel’s navy since made clear, the Israelis boarding this particular ship met with instant and vicious violence. As the Israeli soldiers were lowered one-by-one onto the ship by helicopter, they were assaulted by an angry mob that beat them with metal rods and knives, threw them off the sides of the deck, and reportedly stole their handguns and shot at them. What awaited the Israelis was a lynch mob, pure and simple. Only after the mob began using deadly force did the Israelis respond with deadly force to save their lives.

Anyone doubting the intensity and severity of the attack by the so-called peace activists should watch the following video taken by the Israeli navy. It is sobering.


We will no doubt learn more of the specifics in the days to come. And we may well come to learn that the Israelis made mistakes in the planning and execution of this operation. But as the initial facts have emerged, it has already become clear that these soldiers were acting in self defense, and would never have resorted to violence had they not genuinely feared for their lives. Yet as in prior conflicts, Israel’s efforts at self defense are being twisted and distorted by the very people who provoked and now celebrate the violence.

So here we go again. Prepare for a wave of attacks and vitriol to crash upon Israel. Get ready for lies and exaggeration to control the media coverage. And gird yourself to stand up and spread the truth. Because once again, the truth is Israel’s ally. And once again, it is up to us to spread the truth when others will not.





http://brogsblog.wordpress.com/2010/05/31/here-we-go-again/

[mhgaffney]

JPEZ,

Congrats. You are a dupe.

Check out this account by a Greek peace activist -- who was on one of the other ships.

He describes how people were beaten -- and forced to sign papers written in Hebrew.


Greek activist details Israeli raid, detention

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=39320


Activist: Israelis used bullets, gas, electroshock followed by 'wretched detention conditions'.

ATHENS- A Greek activist told Tuesday of the moment Israeli troops stormed the ill-fated Gaza-bound aid flotilla, using rubber bullets, tear gas and electroshock weapons to subdue those aboard.

"Israeli troops jumped onto the boat around 0530 on Monday," Michalis Grigoropoulos said of the pre-dawn raid by Israeli forces in international waters that killed nine activists and sparked global outrage.

Grigoropoulos was aboard the Eleftheri Mesogeio, smaller than the lead boat, the Mavi Marmara, which Israeli troops had attacked earlier.

"They fired rubber coated bullets, tear gas and then used electroshock weapons on some activists," he told Skai television shortly after Israel deported him and five compatriots to Athens.

"An hour beforehand, at 0430 local time, we heard gunfire on the Turkish boat Mavi Marmara, the Israelis jumped from helicopters onto the boat," he said.

Israel is still holding hundreds of the 686 passengers they seized and took back to the Israeli port of Ashdod, where Grigoropoulos said he was kept incommunicado, denied access to a lawyer and made to sign papers he did not understand.

Grigoropoulos criticised "the wretched detention conditions at Ashdod (where) 500 people were packed in together" saying that "two Greek activists were beaten up" there by Israeli police.

"They made me sign papers on my expulsion, without me knowing what was on the papers because I did not have the right to a translator, a lawyer or to communicate with my family," he said.

The Eleftheri Mesogeio's captain, Zaharias Stilianakis, who was among those returned to Athens, said that "after their assault on the boat, the commandos cut all means of communication."

Another crew member, Aris Papadokostopoulos said that two of the detained Greeks "were beaten because they refused to give their digital fingerprints."

After storming the boat, the troops then "cut all forms of communication," Papadokostopoulos added.

Around 30 pro-Palestinian Greek activists from the flotilla are still being held in Israel.

Activists who have refused to identify themselves have been taken to an Israeli prison.

[epicSocialism4tw]

JPEZ,

Congrats. You are a dupe.

Check out this account by a Greek peace activist -- who was on one of the other ships.

He describes how people were beaten -- and forced to sign papers written in Hebrew.


Greek activist details Israeli raid, detention

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=39320


Activist: Israelis used bullets, gas, electroshock followed by 'wretched detention conditions'.

ATHENS- A Greek activist told Tuesday of the moment Israeli troops stormed the ill-fated Gaza-bound aid flotilla, using rubber bullets, tear gas and electroshock weapons to subdue those aboard.

"Israeli troops jumped onto the boat around 0530 on Monday," Michalis Grigoropoulos said of the pre-dawn raid by Israeli forces in international waters that killed nine activists and sparked global outrage.

Grigoropoulos was aboard the Eleftheri Mesogeio, smaller than the lead boat, the Mavi Marmara, which Israeli troops had attacked earlier.

"They fired rubber coated bullets, tear gas and then used electroshock weapons on some activists," he told Skai television shortly after Israel deported him and five compatriots to Athens.

"An hour beforehand, at 0430 local time, we heard gunfire on the Turkish boat Mavi Marmara, the Israelis jumped from helicopters onto the boat," he said.

Israel is still holding hundreds of the 686 passengers they seized and took back to the Israeli port of Ashdod, where Grigoropoulos said he was kept incommunicado, denied access to a lawyer and made to sign papers he did not understand.

Grigoropoulos criticised "the wretched detention conditions at Ashdod (where) 500 people were packed in together" saying that "two Greek activists were beaten up" there by Israeli police.

"They made me sign papers on my expulsion, without me knowing what was on the papers because I did not have the right to a translator, a lawyer or to communicate with my family," he said.

The Eleftheri Mesogeio's captain, Zaharias Stilianakis, who was among those returned to Athens, said that "after their assault on the boat, the commandos cut all means of communication."

Another crew member, Aris Papadokostopoulos said that two of the detained Greeks "were beaten because they refused to give their digital fingerprints."

After storming the boat, the troops then "cut all forms of communication," Papadokostopoulos added.

Around 30 pro-Palestinian Greek activists from the flotilla are still being held in Israel.

Activists who have refused to identify themselves have been taken to an Israeli prison.

Wow...that's not predictable at all, Gaffney.

I'm quite surprised that your Jew-hating butt was not out there playing victim with all the rest of those terrorists.

[mhgaffney]

Another Irish owned ship named after the slain American peace activist Rachel Corrie will attempt to break the blockade next week.

Israeli Navy braced to intercept next Gaza aid ship

Ireland's prime minister urges Jewish state to allow Irish-owned vessel to complete its mission, discharge humanitarian cargo in Gaza

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3897664,00.html

Reuters
Published: 06.01.10, 21:04 / Israel News

Activists vowed on Tuesday to try to break the Israeli blockade of Gaza with another ship, and an Israeli officer pledged to halt it, setting the stage for a fresh confrontation after Monday's deadly clash.

The MV Rachel Corrie, a converted merchant ship bought by pro-Palestinian activists and named after an American woman killed in the Gaza Strip in 2003, set off on Monday from Malta, organizers said.

"We are an initiative to break Israel's blockade of 1.5 million people in Gaza. Our mission has not changed and this is not going to be the last flotilla," Free Gaza Movement activist Greta Berlin, based in Cyprus, told Reuters.

Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen described the vessel as Irish-owned and said it should be allowed to finish its mission. The ship was carrying 15 activists including a northern Irish Nobel Peace laureate.

"The government has formally requested the Israeli government to allow the Irish-owned ship ... to be allowed to complete its journey unimpeded and discharge its humanitarian cargo in Gaza," Cowen told parliament in Dublin.

An Israeli marine lieutenant, who was not identified, told Israel's Army Radio his unit was prepared to block the ship.

"We as a unit are studying, and we will carry out professional investigations to reach conclusions," the lieutenant said, referring to Monday's confrontation in which his unit shot nine activists aboard a Turkish ferry.

"And we will also be ready for the Rachel Corrie," he added.

Passengers include Northern Irish Nobel peace laureate Mairead Corrigan-Maguire and Denis Halliday, an Irish former senior UN diplomat, and several other Irish citizens.

'Watching situation very closely'

Irish Foreign Minister Micheal Martin told parliament he had spoken with Halliday on Tuesday afternoon. "We will be watching this situation very closely – as indeed will the world – and it is imperative that Israel avoid any action which leads to further bloodshed," Martin said.

Israel's Army Radio reported that the ship would reach Gazan waters by Wednesday, but activist Berlin said it might not attempt to reach Gaza until early next week.

"We will probably not send her till (next) Monday or Tuesday," she said of the 1,200 ton cargo ship. The Israeli navy stormed aboard a Turkish ferry leading a six-ship convoy on Monday, killing nine people in what authorities said was self-defense but sparking a world outcry, a crisis in diplomatic relations with Turkey and condemnation from the United Nations Security Council.

The Rachel Corrie was carrying medical equipment, wheelchairs, school supplies and cement, a material Israel has banned in Hamas-ruled Gaza, organizers said.

[mhgaffney]

The Plumbatt Affair...

The Israelis are old hands at hijacking ships. Back in 1968 the Mossad hijacked a Liberian freighter loaded with uranium ore -- enough uranium for 20 nukes.

The ship was diverted to Israel. The cargo was used to fuel the secretly expanded Dimona reactor -- and produce plutonium for Israel's ultra secret nuclear weapons program.

If you never heard about it - you are not alone. Credit the pro Israel western media -- for not telling you.

http://www.amazon.com/plumbat-affair-Elaine-Davenport/dp/0397012489/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1275475465&sr=1-1

[W*GS]

gaff-o is a Nazi.

[El Guapo]

Israel: Global Jihad Linked to Flotilla
June 2, 2010 - 3:35 AM | by: Dana Lewis

Israeli defense officials now say dozens of passengers who were aboard the Turkish ship Mavi Marmara, the scene of a bloody showdown with Israeli commandos Monday, are suspected of having connections to terrorist organizations. The Israeli Army says it's identified 50 passengers on the ship with terrorist links.

It's known the flotilla of 6 ships was in part organized by the IHH group in Turkey, which reportedly has links to Al Qaeda. And three members of Yemen's Parliament, from the Islah Party, were also among the more than 600 activists detained by Israel after ships refused to stop for Israeli patrol boats and were boarded by Israeli Navy SEALs who eventually opened fire, killing 9 people. The Islah party is also said to have shadowy links to Al Qaeda. Both groups certainly support the Hamas organization in Gaza.

Israel believes the larger danger is that Turkey, a NATO ally, is becoming a foe of the U.S. and Israel. Israel's intelligence Chief, Meir Dagan, told top government ministers here that Turkish President Recip Tayyip Erdogan has "a dream of returning Turkey's dominance through going down the Islamic hall." He cites Turkey's warmer relations with the Palestinians and Hamas, and improving relations with Syria, Iran and others. Dagan described a new anti-Israel coalition. Turkey facilitated the flotilla and the Marmara is Turkish-flagged.

When Israeli commandos lowered themselves onto the deck of the Marmara they met a violent mob armed with bats, steel bars, knives -- and even guns ripped from Israeli troops who were beaten to the point they feared for their lives. Four of the Israelis were set upon, stabbed and shot, and are still in the hospital. Why then did Israel then send its Naval commandos down to the Marmara, armed mainly with paintball guns, into what was clearly much more than a mission of crowd control? The answer is Israeli commanders now admit it was a case of "bad equipment, bad tactics, and bad intelligence."

Had the team boarding the ship not been lowered one by one to be quickly overwhelmed by violent activists, had they been trained in crowd control, the outcome may have been much different, spared the bloody ending that now has the international community in uproar.

Even close allies are under pressure. U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has been wobbling between supporting Israel's right to defend its borders against Hamas smuggling and the need to show sympathy for 1.5 million Palestinians under a 3-year blockade struggling to get everything from medical supplies to food. Clinton won't condemn the blockade, even though Israel itself is increasingly questioning keeping it in place, considering that Hamas manages to smuggle arms from underground tunnels in Egypt regardless.

The defense official's claim a portion of the activists aboard the 6 ships had such serious links to extremist groups raises more questions about who in Israel ultimately approved the bungled plan to board the ships. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's inner cabinet is said to be fuming about not being consulted on the actual details of the raid and is demanding answers now. Israel's political leaders and top generals are trying to avoid taking responsibility for the "fiasco at sea," as one newspaper headline screamed here this week.

A top general told Israel's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee this week that Israeli commandos also used some "gray" tactics at sea on the other 5 ships, an indication they may have somehow disabled engines on the ships. But they decided not to do the same to the Marmara, the large cruise ship where most of the activists were, fearing they would create another kind of humanitarian problem by stranding hundred of activists at sea without food and water and creating a different kind of spectacle.

There are now two more ships on course to attempt to run the Israeli blockade on Gaza, arriving sometime later this week. This is a war for world opinion and Israel knows it. But an army source told me "we will also do everything necessary to stop these ships too." Israel still believes the blockade is necessary at any cost. But the price Israel is paying is still being tallied internationally in terms of weakened support in Europe and even in America.


http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/06/02/israel-global-jihad-linked-to-flotilla/

[Hogan11]

My faith in Israel's slapdown ability was shaken a bit after the last round...it didn't fare too well against those Hamas missile attacks from Lebanon a couple of years ago or so.

So buck up Daffney, your guys are improving it seems.

[Bronco Yoda]

From the night vision videos being shown on CNN, those 'PEACE ACTIVISTS' started beating the commando's with lead pipes and throwing them off the boat from the start.

Looks like the 'peace activists' were itching for a fight and got one. With all that went down I'm surprised that only nine people lost their lives in that activity.

[El Guapo]

No joke. Luckily the Israeli's initially came on with paintball guns. These idiots (funded by turkey) are sending two more boats now.

It's like poking a stick at a caged pit-bull. They're asking for it (and the sad thing is that the world will not side with Israel in whatever it is they choose to do about it).

[epicSocialism4tw]

No joke. Luckily the Israeli's initially came on with paintball guns. These idiots (funded by turkey) are sending two more boats now.

It's like poking a stick at a caged pit-bull. They're asking for it (and the sad thing is that the world will not side with Israel in whatever it is they choose to do about it).

Hopefully Gaffney's on one of those boats. Maybe theyll forget their tinfoil hats and end up sucked into a vortex of imploding conspiracy theories.

[gyldenlove]

From the night vision videos being shown on CNN, those 'PEACE ACTIVISTS' started beating the commando's with lead pipes and throwing them off the boat from the start.

Looks like the 'peace activists' were itching for a fight and got one. With all that went down I'm surprised that only nine people lost their lives in that activity.

That has been working procedure for about 500 years when you get boarded in international waters. Israel has rights to inspect and detain ships in territorial waters, but in international waters boarding a ship uninvited is tantamount to piracy. That would be like Israeli police forces arresting people in Illinois.

[epicSocialism4tw]

From the NY Post:

"The president's appeasement policies helped to create the incident. Israel took the bait, but the trap was set in Washington.

Weakness always begets aggression, and, like clockwork, Obama's repeated signals that he is weakening America's commitment to Israel are emboldening the Jewish state's enemies. From Syria to Iran to Lebanon, from Hezbollah to Hamas (http://www.nypost.com/t/Hamas)and the PLO, the wolves smell blood and are trying to gauge whether they can get close enough for the kill."

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/anti_israel_sharks_sniff_weakness_n5AbqK6bk6NHcy6q EWK5jJ#ixzz0sYmdsF8f

[Spider]

Hopefully Gaffney's on one of those boats. Maybe theyll forget their tinfoil hats and end up sucked into a vortex of imploding conspiracy theories.

:rofl: very christian of you ................

[epicSocialism4tw]

very christian of you ................

What the heck are you talking about?

If you dont understand the humor, its best just to nod your head and laugh. Unfortunately for you, you go straight into defense mode.

[Spider]

What the heck are you talking about?

If you dont understand the humor, its best just to nod your head and laugh. Unfortunately for you, you go straight into defense mode.

LOL so christian humor is hopin somebody implodes while bein on the front line of a ship trying to break a barricade.........Oh if thats the case Hilarious!Hilarious!Hilarious!Hilarious!....... oh good one

[Spider]

still Hilarious! ............... oh jeez Skillit .......Hilarious!

[Spider]

what a zinger Skillit .... you sure got one on Ghaff Hilarious!

[DBruleU]

No wonder you have the massive post count you do....you're too stupid to put down three consecutive thoughts into one post.

[epicSocialism4tw]

No wonder you have the massive post count you do....you're too stupid to put down three consecutive thoughts into one post.

I dont know if I would consider anything in those posts as containing something that even remotely resembles a thought. ;D

[epicSocialism4tw]

LOL so christian humor is hopin somebody implodes while bein on the front line of a ship trying to break a barricade.........Oh if thats the case....... oh good one

I think that this would probably be the first time that a person was hurt by imploding conspiracy theory vortexes, and the first time that such a thing actually existed.

[Spider]

No wonder you have the massive post count you do....you're too stupid to put down three consecutive thoughts into one post.

it was a funny post ......... McSkillit is a comic genius ...........

[Spider]

I think that this would probably be the first time that a person was hurt by imploding conspiracy theory vortexes, and the first time that such a thing actually existed.

I see and thats whats so funny ......... got it

[Spider]

I dont know if I would consider anything in those posts as containing something that even remotely resembles a thought. ;D

jeeez I laugh at one of your jokes and you still insult me .......... Listen here Ted Haggard , just because I rejected your advances is no reason to hold a grudge .....forgive and forget ..... that crap is somewhere in the bible ................

[mhgaffney]

From the night vision videos being shown on CNN, those 'PEACE ACTIVISTS' started beating the commando's with lead pipes and throwing them off the boat from the start.

Looks like the 'peace activists' were itching for a fight and got one. With all that went down I'm surprised that only nine people lost their lives in that activity.

You should know better than to believe anything that comes out of the mouth of Benjamin Netanyahu.

It was not an inspection. In the past Israel has hijacked other aid ships trying to break the blockade -- and the plan was no different, this time.

Imagine if Somali pirates had forced their way aboard a US ship 100 miles off the horn of Africa -- then -- when the sailors tried to repel them ins elf defense -- opened fire killing nine sailors and wounding dozens more.

In that case there would be no confusion about who was the attacker. But Yoda you and the rest are so brainwashed from the US media -- you can't think straight.

If such a thing happened off Somalia there would be hysterical cries on this board for vengeance. The West would undoubtedly send a naval armada to teach the Somali pirates a lesson.

But clearly Israel is exempt from any law. They can bomb, kill, maim, starve, impose collective punishment etc -- and you just wink.

Something is rotten and I do not mean in Denmark. You guys are seriously confused.

[mhgaffney]

I agree with this author. BTW the Israeli commandos were not ordinary soldiers. They were a highly trained crack unit used for SWAP type operations.

It was not an inspection team.

June 2, 2010

All at Sea

From Klinghoffer to the Gaza Flotilla

By YVONNE RIDLEY

I wonder how many of you remember the hijacking of the Italian cruise ship the Achille Lauro way back in October 1985?

Four members of the Palestine Liberation Front took control of the liner off Egypt as she was sailing from Alexandria to Port Said. It was a bungled operation in which the hijackers killed disabled Jewish-American passenger Leon Klinghoffer and then threw his body overboard.

The incident created headlines around the world and polarized people over the Palestinian cause. It also prompted the law makers to create new legislation making it an international crime for anyone to take a ship by force.

And this is the reason for the brief history lesson - under article 3 of the Rome Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the Safety of Maritime Navigation of 1988, it is an international crime for any person to seize or exercise control over a ship by force, and also a crime to injure or kill any person in the process.

The treaty necessarily adopts a strict approach. One cannot attack a ship and then claim self-defense if the people on board resist the unlawful use of violence.

In other words, according to international law, the actions of the Israeli military were beyond the law and those involved should be treated no differently than, say, the Somali pirates who are also in the habit of boarding ships by force.

Any rights to self defense in such dramatic circumstances rests purely with the passengers and crew on board. Under international maritime law you are legally entitled to resist unlawful capture, abduction and detention.

What those on board the Freedom Flotilla did was perfectly legal. I believe they acted with great courage in the face of heavily armed IDF commandos, while others might have thought their actions reckless. Whatever your view, a number paid the ultimate price for their international right to resist.

Israel now stands virtually alone having exposed itself as a pariah state. I wrote an article last year calling them the Pirates of the Mediterranean after they had illegally boarded other aid ships, kidnapping crew and passengers.

Now I want you to ask yourself this question … if a group of Somali pirates had forced their way onto half a dozen humanitarian aid ships from the West, slaughtering around nine or 10 people and injuring scores more what do you think the international reaction would have been?

Let me tell you. A NATO task force would by now be steaming towards the Horn of Africa accompanied by a couple of drones and various members of the press to record the occasion. (On a point of interest the Achille Lauro sank in the Indian Ocean off the coast of Somalia in 1994.)

So why is Israel allowed to get away with murder? In a pre-meditated act the Zionist State showed once again its total disregard for human life – and international law.There were pensioners, women and children on board those ships which were carrying bags of cement, electric wheelchairs, toys, medicines and water purifiers for Gaza's people.

Realizing Israel had shot itself in the foot, Isrsael’s prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu then started shooting from the lip.

He asked us to believe that his troops were acting in self-defense. And then, 24 hours later, given time to come up with more lies he told the world that the soldiers were armed with paintballs and had not expected to use their weapons. Not content with insulting our intelligence he said his nice, cuddly IDF folk had only boarded the boats to carry out an inspection and inventory.

Then backing him up was Mark Regev, Israel’s political Pinocchio. He reckons these evil-doers on board the boats grabbed the IDF’s real guns and used them to fire on the soldiers.

These are the same soldiers that come from an elite, highly trained, crack squad … hmm Mr Regev, if that’s the case why would you send in the A-Team if they were just going to do an inventory? And if they were such a hot squad how did a bunch of civilians manage to overpower them and give them a good slap?

Either Israeli soldiers fight like a bunch of old women – which Hizb’Allah says they do – or they intended to massacre those on board to make sure that no other peace activists get involved in trying to help the Palestinian people of Gaza.

Well if that was the aim then it has failed. As I write this some heroic friends of mine from the Free Gaza Movement including Malaysian lawyer Matthias Chang are bound for Gaza now onboard the appropriately named ship Rachel Corrie.

Yvonne Ridley is a British Journalist and author of In The Hands of the Taliban which is due to be updated and republished later this year. She is also a presenter for The Agenda and co-presenter of the Rattansi & Ridley show, both of which are broadcast on Press TV. In addition she is a founding member of the Stop the War Coalition as well as the RESPECT political party.

[mhgaffney]

http://www.counterpunch.org/ridley06022010.html

[DenverBrit]

Gaffney, the beatings are shown clearly in the video.

But here's a question for you.

Let's say those ships were carrying explosives and weapons.

Would you still take the same stance?

The Israelis were boarding with that possibility in mind. They weren't looking for blankets and food.

[mhgaffney]

That has been working procedure for about 500 years when you get boarded in international waters. Israel has rights to inspect and detain ships in territorial waters, but in international waters boarding a ship uninvited is tantamount to piracy. That would be like Israeli police forces arresting people in Illinois.

You nailed it.

According to international law -- in this case -- the Israelis were the equivalent of pirates.

[DenverBrit]

You nailed it.

According to international law -- in this case -- the Israelis were the equivalent of pirates.

Yeah, the outcome would have been very different in Israeli waters.

Should the various countries trying to stamp out piracy off the Somali coast only board when pirates enter.......which waters exactly?

[epicSocialism4tw]

Gaffney, the beatings are shown clearly in the video.

But here's a question for you.

Let's say those ships were carrying explosives and weapons.

Would you still take the same stance?

The Israelis were boarding with that possibility in mind. They weren't looking for blankets and food.

Gaffney is advocating an organization that brought Al-Qaeda recruits on its boat to break an Israeli blockade.

He would probably prefer that weapons make it into Gaza to Hamas.

[mhgaffney]

Gaffney, the beatings are shown clearly in the video.

But here's a question for you.

Let's say those ships were carrying explosives and weapons.

Would you still take the same stance?

The Israelis were boarding with that possibility in mind. They weren't looking for blankets and food.

No -- that is not true.

The ships had already been inspected -- before leaving Cyprus. Everything was public -- out in the open. There was nothing stealthy about this convoy.

The ships were bringing 10,000 tons of desperately needed food, medicine, etc to Gaza.

If this is not coming through in the US media coverage -- it is easy to understand why. The US media becomes more Orwellian as the crisis of civilization deepens.

The dumbing down, the aversion to issues, the absence of any analysis, the replacing of news with infotainment etc etc

The only way to escape the drum beat of TV propaganda is to turn off the tube -- and use the intelligence God gave you.

[gyldenlove]

Yeah, the outcome would have been very different in Israeli waters.

Should the various countries trying to stamp out piracy off the Somali coast only board when pirates enter.......which waters exactly?

The ships hunting pirates off the coast of Somalia are under very strict orders only to engage aggressors. They do not have mandate and I don't believe they have ever attacked or boarded a vessel without someone on that vessel attacking or attempting to board a ship first.

It is the same here, if the Israelis had boarded and controlled the ship in their territorial waters, just fine, that is their right, just as any other country can board and control any vessel suspected of smuggling. However in international waters you have no jurisdiction so any attempt at boarding a vessel would be illegal.

[epicSocialism4tw]

No -- that is not true.

The ships had already been inspected -- before leaving Cyprus. Everything was public -- out in the open. There was nothing stealthy about this convoy.

The ships were bringing 10,000 tons of desperately needed food, medicine, etc to Gaza.

If this is not coming through in the US media coverage -- it is easy to understand why. The US media becomes more Orwellian as the crisis of civilization deepens.

The dumbing down, the aversion to issues, the absence of any analysis, the replacing of news with infotainment etc etc

The only way to escape the drum beat of TV propaganda is to turn off the tube -- and use the intelligence God gave you.

That ship of fools could have easily cooperated and all would have been well. Instead, they chose to commit an act of war.

Your people arent interested in bringing aid to Gaza. They are interested in destroying Israel.

[gyldenlove]

Gaffney is advocating an organization that brought Al-Qaeda recruits on its boat to break an Israeli blockade.

He would probably prefer that weapons make it into Gaza to Hamas.

Having seen the Israeli videos, the only weapons cache they found contained some rather nasty knives and something that looks like machetes, a lot of metal rods and a lot of tools like hammers and wrenches. No explosives, no molotov cocktails, no guns.

[mhgaffney]

Gaffney is advocating an organization that brought Al-Qaeda recruits on its boat to break an Israeli blockade.

He would probably prefer that weapons make it into Gaza to Hamas.

What organization are you referring to?

The convoy carried 700 peace activists from at least 40 nations.

As I have stated -- it carried many distinguished people, diplomats, members of parliament -- including the Knesset -- and even a winner of the Nobel Peace Prize.

You could confirm all of this by doing some reading.

The Israeli claims are not surprising. This is the standard propaganda. But some reality checks will show the claims are not true.

Israel has been moving to the right fir many years. In recent years Israel has crossed over into total paranoia and extremism.

Instead of sitting down to negotiate they resort increasingly to violence. One of Netanyahu's ministers, Avigdor Lieberman (apparently a relative of Joe Lieberman), talks about nuking Gaza into dust.

A nation has gone crazy.

[DenverBrit]

No -- that is not true.

The ships had already been inspected -- before leaving Cyprus. Everything was public -- out in the open. There was nothing stealthy about this convoy.

The ships were bringing 10,000 tons of desperately needed food, medicine, etc to Gaza.

If this is not coming through in the US media coverage -- it is easy to understand why. The US media becomes more Orwellian as the crisis of civilization deepens.

The dumbing down, the aversion to issues, the absence of any analysis, the replacing of news with infotainment etc etc

The only way to escape the drum beat of TV propaganda is to turn off the tube -- and use the intelligence God gave you.

First you assume I get my news from network TV. You couldn't be more wrong.

Secondly, you assume because a manifest is made public,and an inspection takes place that nothing else is being shipped. Again, dead wrong and naive.

Lusitania for example, or the many vessels that brought arms and explosives to N Ireland..

Stop talking down to people and assuming that you know how others get their information, it makes you appear condescending and pompous....and you wonder how people get that impression.

I asked you a specific question which you avoided. Try again.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Having seen the Israeli videos, the only weapons cache they found contained some rather nasty knives and something that looks like machetes, a lot of metal rods and a lot of tools like hammers and wrenches. No explosives, no molotov cocktails, no guns.

That simply does not matter.

When you pass a blockade by willfully ignoring Israeli requests for more information, you are committing an act of war.

See, this is what these morons want. They wanted to provoke Israel into defending themselves so that they could play the victim, when in actuality they are committing acts of aggression. Unfortunately for them, Israel went about it diplomatically until the last boat started attacking Israeli soldiers and throwing them three stories into the drink like a bunch of rabid animals.

Dont buy what these hucksters are selling.

[mhgaffney]

That ship of fools could have easily cooperated and all would have been well. Instead, they chose to commit an act of war.

Your people arent interested in bringing aid to Gaza. They are interested in destroying Israel.

You are kidding, right?

Cooperated with whom? You mean with the government of Israel? The very government that has imposed a blockade on Gaza for many years.

You are saying that unarmed peace activists committed an act of war -- how? By defending themselves?

You are confused.

[mhgaffney]

That simply does not matter.

When you pass a blockade by willfully ignoring Israeli requests for more information, you are committing an act of war.

See, this is what these morons want. They wanted to provoke Israel into defending themselves so that they could play the victim, when in actuality they are committing acts of aggression. Unfortunately for them, Israel went about it diplomatically until the last boat started attacking Israeli soldiers and throwing them three stories into the drink like a bunch of rabid animals.

Dont buy what these hucksters are selling.

Spider was right. McSkillet is being humorous. He is pulling our leg. He can't be serious.

[DenverBrit]

The ships hunting pirates off the coast of Somalia are under very strict orders only to engage aggressors. They do not have mandate and I don't believe they have ever attacked or boarded a vessel without someone on that vessel attacking or attempting to board a ship first.

It is the same here, if the Israelis had boarded and controlled the ship in their territorial waters, just fine, that is their right, just as any other country can board and control any vessel suspected of smuggling. However in international waters you have no jurisdiction so any attempt at boarding a vessel would be illegal.

It's really not that simple.

Under federal law, the Coast Guard's mandate includes arresting traffickers even if they are on the high seas--that is, far outside any country's territorial boundaries. Toward this effort the United States has cooperative agreements with many other nations to intercept drug activity. And several U.S. federal agencies, including the Department of Defense and the Customs Service, are charged with monitoring possible drug trafficking far outside our borders.

When an embargo or blockade is in effect, ships are routinely inspected in international waters. How else can an embargo be implemented and enforced?

[epicSocialism4tw]

You are kidding, right?

Cooperated with whom? You mean with the government of Israel? The very government that has imposed a blockade on Gaza for many years.

You are saying that unarmed peace activists committed an act of war -- how? By defending themselves?

You are confused.

Well, we would expect that they actually cooperate with Israel, now would we? You know...a "peace" delegation actually promoting peace? They would much rather launch rockets into neighborhoods from Gaza.

These morons only wanted to cause problems.

[mhgaffney]

Now that the peace activists are being released -- we are hearing a different version of events. They say the Israelis started firing before they boarded the ships.

It;s clear that the Israelis jammed the communications on the ships. The peace activists were unable to use their phones -- or other communications -- This is standard procedure -- for terrorist entities.

The Israelis insured that only their version of events would be heard.

Israelis opened fire before boarding Gaza flotilla,

say released activists

First eyewitness accounts of raid contradict version put out by Israeli officials

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/gaza-flotilla-eyewitness-accounts-gunfire

[sirhcyennek81]

Now that the peace activists are being released -- we are hearing a different version of events. They say the Israelis started firing before they boarded the ships.

It;s clear that the Israelis jammed the communications on the ships. The peace activists were unable to use their phones -- or other communications -- This is standard procedure -- for terrorist entities.

The Israelis insured that only their version of events would be heard.

Israelis opened fire before boarding Gaza flotilla,

say released activists

First eyewitness accounts of raid contradict version put out by Israeli officials

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/gaza-flotilla-eyewitness-accounts-gunfire


You know paranoia and a fixation on conspiracy theories sings volumes about your lack of vagina getting.

:Broncos:

[mhgaffney]

This has never been about mhgaffney.

From your post it does appear that you are jealous...

What is clear is that we are in an extremely fluid international situation. If Turkey sends its navy to protect the Rachel Corrie, the next aid ship - -- which is supposed to leave Cyprus in a matter of days for Gaza --

And if the Israelis attack with deadly force -- again --

because Turkey is a member of NATO, the other countries of NATO would be legally bound by their treaty obligations to come to Turkey's defense.

Try to wrap your brain around this. While there is little chance that the nations of Europe will confront Israel militarily -- there will be serious consequences.

Is NATO about to unravel because of Israeli piracy?

Israeli Murders, NATO and Afghanistan

By Craig Murray


http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25596.htm

June 02, 2010 "Information Clearing House" -- I was in the British Foreign and Commonwealth Office for over 20 years and a member of its senior management structure for six years, I served in five countries and took part in 13 formal international negotiations, including the UN Convention of the Law of the Sea and a whole series of maritime boundary treaties. I headed the FCO section of a multidepartmental organisation monitoring the arms embargo on Iraq.

I am an instinctively friendly, open but unassuming person who always found it easy to get on with people, I think because I make fun of myself a lot. I have in consequence a great many friends among ex-colleagues in both British and foregin diplomatic services, security services and militaries.

I lost very few friends when I left the FCO over torture and rendition. In fact I seemed to gain several degrees of warmth with a great many acquantances still on the inside. And I have become known as a reliable outlet for grumbles, who as an ex-insider knows how to handle a discreet and unintercepted conversation.

What I was being told last night was very interesting indeed. NATO HQ in Brussels is today a very unhappy place. There is a strong understanding among the various national militaries that an attack by Israel on a NATO member flagged ship in international waters is an event to which NATO is obliged - legally obliged, as a matter of treaty - to react.

I must be plain - nobody wants or expects military action against Israel. But there is an uneasy recognition that in theory that ought to be on the table, and that NATO is obliged to do something robust to defend Turkey.

Mutual military support of each other is the entire raison d'etre of NATO. You must also remember that to the NATO military the freedom of the high seas guaranteed by the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea is a vital alliance interest which officers have been conditioned to uphold their whole career.

That is why Turkey was extremely shrewd in reacting immediately to the Israeli attack by calling an emergency NATO meeting. It is why, after the appalling US reaction to the attack with its refusal to name Israel, President Obama has now made a point of phoning President Erdogan to condole.

But the unhappiness in NATO HQ runs much deeper than that, I spoke separately to two friends there, from two different nations. One of them said NATO HQ was "a very unhappy place". The other described the situation as "Tense - much more strained than at the invasion of Iraq".

Why? There is a tendency of outsiders to regard the senior workings of governments and international organisations as monolithic. In fact there are plenty of highly intelligent - and competitive - people and diverse interests involved.

There are already deep misgivings, especially amongst the military, over the Afghan mission. There is no sign of a diminution in Afghan resistance attacks and no evidence of a clear gameplan. The military are not stupid and they can see that the Karzai government is deeply corrupt and the Afghan "national" army comprised almost exclusively of tribal enemies of the Pashtuns.

You might be surprised by just how high in Nato scepticism runs at the line that in some way occupying Afghanistan helps protect the west, as opposed to stoking dangerous Islamic anger worldwide.

So this is what is causing frost and stress inside NATO. The organisation is tied up in a massive, expensive and ill-defined mission in Afghanistan that many whisper is counter-productive in terms of the alliance aim of mutual defence. Every European military is facing financial problems as a public deficit financing crisis sweeps the continent. The only glue holding the Afghan mission together is loyalty to and support for the United States.

But what kind of mutual support organisation is NATO when members must make decades long commitments, at huge expense and some loss of life, to support the Unted States, but cannot make even a gesture to support Turkey when Turkey is attacked by a non-member?

Even the Eastern Europeans have not been backing the US line on the Israeli attack. The atmosphere in NATO on the issue has been very much the US against the rest, with the US attitude inside NATO described to me by a senior NATO officer as "amazingly arrogant - they don't seem to think it matters what anybody else thinks".

Therefore what is troubling the hearts and souls of non-Americans in NATO HQ is this fundamental question. Is NATO genuinely a mutual defence organisation, or is it just an instrument to carry out US foreign policy? With its unthinking defence of Israel and military occupation of Afghanistan, is US foreign policy really defending Europe, or is it making the World less safe by causing Islamic militancy?

I leave the last word to one of the senior NATO officers - who incidentally is not British: "Nobody but the Americans doubts the US position on the Gaza attack is wrong and insensitve. But everyone already quietly thought the same about wider American policy. This incident has allowed people to start saying that now privately to each other."

Craig Murray is a human rights activist, writer, former British Ambassador, and an Honorary Research Fellow at the University of Lancaster School of Law. Visit his blog http://www.craigmurray.org.uk

[mhgaffney]

The present situation shows the impotence of the US government. Obama cannot act.

There is an old saying -- those who fail to act will be acted upon...

[epicSocialism4tw]

The present situation shows the impotence of the US government. Obama cannot act.

There is an old saying -- those who fail to act will be acted upon...

Yep. He should show solidarity with Israel ASAP.

[DenverBrit]

Looky here, Gaffney, an alternative to your 'they were all innocent' assumption. Yeah, I know, it's not from one of your carefully chosen sources.
This one is AP....not always right, but clearly there are two sides to this story......even if Israel was its usual heavy handed self.

AP INTERVIEW: Turkish aid group had terror ties

By ALFRED de MONTESQUIOU (AP) – 6 hours ago

PARIS — The Turkish Islamic charity behind a flotilla of aid ships that was raided by Israeli forces on its way to Gaza had ties to terrorism networks, including a 1999 al-Qaida plot to bomb Los Angeles International Airport, France's former top anti-terrorism judge said Wednesday.

The Istanbul-based Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief, known by its Turkish acronym IHH, had "clear, long-standing ties to terrorism and Jihad," former investigating judge Jean-Louis Bruguiere told The Associated Press in a telephone interview.

Bruguiere, who led the French judiciary's counterterrorism unit for nearly two decades before retiring in 2007, didn't indicate whether IHH now has terror ties, but said it did when he investigated it in the late 1990s.

"They were basically helping al-Qaida when (Osama) bin Laden started to want to target U.S. soil," he said.

Some members of an international terrorism cell known as the Fateh Kamel network then worked at the IHH, he said. Kamel, an Algerian-Canadian dual national, had ties to the nascent al-Qaida, Bruguiere said.

Among Kamel's followers was Ahmed Ressam, an Algerian who was arrested in the U.S. state of Washington in December 1999 on his way to bomb Los Angeles International Airport as part of an al-Qaida plot.

"IHH had a role in the organization that led to the plot," Bruguiere said, reiterating sworn testimony he made in a U.S. Federal Court during Ressam's trial. Ressam is serving a 22-year prison sentence.

Bruguiere issued an international warrant for Kamel, Ressam's former mentor, who was extradited from Jordan to France in 1999 and sentenced to eight years in prison on terror-related charges.

IHH vehemently denies ties to radical groups. The group is not among some 45 groups listed as terrorists by the U.S. State Department's Office of the Coordinator for Counterterrorism. Nine people on board the IHH flotilla were killed by Israeli forces on Monday.

"We are a legal organization," IHH board member Omer Faruk Korkmaz said late Wednesday in response to Bruguiere's statements. "We have nothing to do with any illegal organization," he said.

"We don't know Ahmed Ressam or Fateh Kamel," Korkmaz said. "We don't approve of the actions of any terrorist organization in the world."

French investigators found in the 1990s that "several members of Fateh Kamel's network worked at the IHH as a cover," Bruguiere said. "It was too systematic and too widespread for the NGO (non-governmental organization) not to know" their real goal, he said.

The former judge, renowned for tracking down convicted terrorist Carlos the Jackal, said he didn't believe the IHH could have been infiltrated by terrorists without its knowledge.

"It's hard to prove, but all elements of the investigation showed that part of the NGO served to hide jihad-type activities," Bruguiere said. "I'm convinced this was a clear strategy, known by IHH."

The judge said he was personally involved in a raid with French and Turkish police at IHH headquarters in Istanbul in 1998, where they found weapons, false documents and other "incriminating" material.

"It was clearly proven that some of the NGO's work was not charity, it was to provide a facade for moving funds, weapons and mujahedeen to and from Bosnia and Afghanistan" — areas focused on by Islamic militants then.

In Istanbul, Korkmaz, of IHH, confirmed the late '90s police raid but denied that any weapons were found and said there was no evidence found of links to militancy.

Bruguiere would not specify how many members of Kamel's terror cell worked at IHH or give their names, but he said one of the suspects, a man from Bosnia, appeared in another terror-related case as recently as 2005 — though there was no indication at the time that the man still had ties to IHH.

Elements within the charity supported jihadi operations in the 1990s, Bruguiere said, before adding: "I don't know whether they continued to do so" more recently.

"But it seemed clear at the time that it was thanks to a measure of political backing within the Turkish government that it (IHH) could continue to operate," despite the strong suspicions against it, Bruguiere said.

Bruguiere retired from the judiciary in 2007 when he took part in an election to become a lawmaker in the conservative party of French President Nicolas Sarkozy. He lost his bid.

Bruguiere, 67, is now the coordinator for the European Union in a terrorism finance tracking program jointly run with the United States.

In Washington, U.S. State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley told reporters on Wednesday that "we know that IHH representatives have met with senior Hamas officials in Turkey, Syria, and Gaza over the past three years. That is obviously of great concern to us."

But, he said the U.S. could not "validate" that IHH has connections to al Qaida.

[mhgaffney]

Brit,

This is lame and will not convince anybody -- outside the US and Israel.

The fact is that the ships were not carrying contraband -- they were carrying food, medicine, cement etc

Of course, now that Israel has seized the cargo -- anything is possible. We have seen evidence planted before -- many times. I would not be surprised to see stories floated from Israel -- in the next few days -- about guns and weapons being discovered on the ships.

[DenverBrit]

Brit,

This is lame and will not convince anybody -- outside the US and Israel.

The fact is that the ships were not carrying contraband -- they were carrying food, medicine, cement etc

Of course, now that Israel has seized the cargo -- anything is possible. We have seen evidence planted before -- many times. I would not be surprised to see stories floated from Israel -- in the next few days -- about guns and weapons being discovered on the ships.

LOL

Lame?? And you accuse people here of being closed minded.
You are the literal definition of 'hypocrite'!!

The 'judge' has more credibility than anyone you've brought to the table.
Is any possibility that some of these 'activists' are terrorists to be discounted because it's not anti-Israeli??

[DenverBrit]

A useful Q&A on the incident.

An extract:

Why did Israel want to stop the flotilla?

Israel and Egypt prevent a large range of goods from reaching Gaza, in order to put pressure on the Hamas government. These include cement and scaffolding, which it says can be used to make launchers for rockets, but also a range of other goods which do not undermine Israeli security. Israel also wanted to check that the ships did not contain deliveries of weapons or cash. It offered to allow the flotilla to land in an Israeli port, and to deliver by road any goods that passed its checks.

Did Israel breach international law?

This is disputed. A Turkish draft resolution circulated at the UN Security Council described the attack as a violation of international law. Turkish foreign minister Ahmet Davutoglu called the raid "tantamount to banditry and piracy" and "murder conducted by a state".

Israel's foreign ministry says that under international maritime law, when a maritime blockade is in effect, no boats can enter the blockaded area. It adds: "Any vessel that violates or attempts to violate a maritime blockade may be captured or even attacked under international law."

More:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10203726.stm

[DenverBrit]

You nailed it.

According to international law -- in this case -- the Israelis were the equivalent of pirates.

Wrong again!!

The facts, Gaffo!

From: The International Committee of the Red Cross

San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994

SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

Neutral merchant vessels

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;

http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce

[mhgaffney]

Brit,

You think the Israeli blockade is legal. It is not. You are mistaken.

[W*GS]

gaff-o is a Nazi.

[sirhcyennek81]

Brit,

You think the Israeli blockade is legal. It is not. You are mistaken.


You think its just an Israeli blockade? You know Gaza shares a border with Egypt, right?

And Egypt, much like Israel has sealed their Gaza border too. But I suppose that is all part of the Zionist plot, right?

Dumb ****.

:Broncos:

[DenverBrit]

Brit,

You think the Israeli blockade is legal. It is not. You are mistaken.

Admit it Gaffney, you only read your own anti Israeli propaganda.

I posted this simple summary earlier so that even a blowhard like you would understand.
Israel and Egypt prevent a large range of goods from reaching Gaza, in order to put pressure on the Hamas government. These include cement and scaffolding, which it says can be used to make launchers for rockets, but also a range of other goods which do not undermine Israeli security. Israel also wanted to check that the ships did not contain deliveries of weapons or cash. It offered to allow the flotilla to land in an Israeli port, and to deliver by road any goods that passed its checks.

[gyldenlove]

It's really not that simple.



When an embargo or blockade is in effect, ships are routinely inspected in international waters. How else can an embargo be implemented and enforced?

Calling it an embargo or blockade is just a name. The act is still the same.

People tend to get killed during war, that is how you have a war, that doesn't change the fact that people get murdered.

We have just adapted to a terminology that allows national governments to perform certain acts under different terminology to make it more acceptable to the public mind.

When the Israeli army boards a ship in international waters, seize the vessel and confiscate the goods and capture the crew and passengers it is a blockage. When Somalis board a ship in international waters, seizes the vessel and confiscates the goods and captures the crew and passengers it is piracy. From a logical view the only difference is that a government can hide behind the blockade terminology.

Just FYI, ships are very rarely inspected in international waters, even during the Cuba blockade ships were very rarely boarded. Currently no other naval blockade is in effect, so this is not by any means a common occurence.

[DenverBrit]

Calling it an embargo or blockade is just a name. The act is still the same.

People tend to get killed during war, that is how you have a war, that doesn't change the fact that people get murdered.

We have just adapted to a terminology that allows national governments to perform certain acts under different terminology to make it more acceptable to the public mind.

When the Israeli army boards a ship in international waters, seize the vessel and confiscate the goods and capture the crew and passengers it is a blockage. When Somalis board a ship in international waters, seizes the vessel and confiscates the goods and captures the crew and passengers it is piracy. From a logical view the only difference is that a government can hide behind the blockade terminology.

Just FYI, ships are very rarely inspected in international waters, even during the Cuba blockade ships were very rarely boarded. Currently no other naval blockade is in effect, so this is not by any means a common occurence.

No it's not. But the modern naval blockade goes back to the Napoleonic period and has been used by nations ever since.
Israel and Egypt have been blockading Gaza overland together and Israel has been enforcing the blockade at sea. The naval blockade allows Israel to stop and board ships to inspect cargoes, which they have been doing for years.
Even the Israelis admit that this search was botched on many levels.

Recent blockades.

# Egyptian blockade of Israel during Operation Badr, part of the Yom Kippur War.
# NATO blockade of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia 1993-1996 during Operation Sharp Guard.
# Israeli sea and land blockade of the Gaza Strip since the outbreak of the Second Intifada (2000) up to the present. (It's been in place for a decade and searches have taken place during that time)
# Israeli blockades of some or all the shores of Lebanon at various times during the Lebanese Civil War (1975–1990), the 1982 Lebanon War and the 1982-2000 South Lebanon conflict — resumed during the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict.
# Israeli and Egyptian blockade of the Gaza Strip, beginning in June 2007.[13]
# Turkey and Azerbaijan blockades on Armenia during the Nagorno-Karabakh War (This one is especially ironic as Turkey wrings it's collective hands.)

[DenverBrit]

Brit,

You think the Israeli blockade is legal. It is not. You are mistaken.

No I'm not. As usual, you're dead wrong, admit it, you know as much about maritime law as you do structural engineering.

I can only school you to a point, you really need to do your own homework before pontificating.

CAN ISRAEL IMPOSE A NAVAL BLOCKADE ON GAZA?

Yes it can, according to the law of blockade which was derived from customary international law and codified in the 1909 Declaration of London. It was updated in 1994 in a legally recognized document called
the "San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea."
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2856173&postcount=151
Under some of the key rules, a blockade must be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral states, access to neutral ports cannot be blocked, and an area can only be blockaded which is under enemy control.

Under the law of a blockade, intercepting a vessel could apply globally so long as a ship is bound for a "belligerent" territory, legal experts say

CAN ISRAEL USE FORCE WHEN INTERCEPTING SHIPS?

Under international law it can use force when boarding a ship.

"If force is disproportionate it would be a violation of the key tenets of the use of force," said Commander James Kraska, professor of international law at the U.S. Naval War College.
(This is the where the investigation will focus)

Here Gaffney, educate yourself!
More.http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65133D20100602

Blockade defined: http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce

[gyldenlove]

No it's not. But the modern naval blockade goes back to the Napoleonic period and has been used by nations ever since.
Israel and Egypt have been blockading Gaza overland together and Israel has been enforcing the blockade at sea. The naval blockade allows Israel to stop and board ships to inspect cargoes, which they have been doing for years.
Even the Israelis admit that this search was botched on many levels.

Recent blockades.

# Egyptian blockade of Israel during Operation Badr, part of the Yom Kippur War. (More than 30 years ago)
# NATO blockade of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia 1993-1996 during Operation Sharp Guard. (More than 10 years ago)
# Israeli sea and land blockade of the Gaza Strip since the outbreak of the Second Intifada (2000) up to the present. (It's been in place for a decade and searches have taken place during that time) (Same as the last one)
# Israeli blockades of some or all the shores of Lebanon at various times during the Lebanese Civil War (1975–1990), the 1982 Lebanon War and the 1982-2000 South Lebanon conflict — resumed during the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict. (The blockade in 2006 lasted about 2 months, the previous blockade is more than 30 years ago).
# Israeli and Egyptian blockade of the Gaza Strip, beginning in June 2007.[13]
# Turkey and Azerbaijan blockades on Armenia during the Nagorno-Karabakh War (This one is especially ironic as Turkey wrings it's collective hands.)

In the last 10 years that makes a 2 months blockade of Lebanon and the ongoing blockade of Gaza both by Israel, in fact in the last 20 years only one blockade has been carried out by a party other than Israel (NATO).

If by allow you mean enables then yes. Doing something doesn't make it legal, piracy goes back to before Columbus' journey to the West Indies (a few 100 years before Napoleon), but that doesn't mean you can just do it.

Again, had this taken place in Israeli waters no problem, it was a botched operation and could have been handled better but in Israeli waters it is their right to inspect vessels and if necesary divert them to a controlled port to ensure control with the goods.

[El Minion]

Glenn Greenwald has a great piece on this whole fiasco, read the whole thing hear (http://www.salon.com/news/israel/index.html?story=/opinion/greenwald/2010/06/03/israel).


––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Thus, nuclear-armed Israel is bullied and victimized by starving Gazans with stones. The Israel Navy is threatened by a flotilla filled with wheelchairs and medicine. And the greatest superpower the Earth has ever known faces a grave and existential threat from a handful of religious fanatics hiding in caves. An American condemnation of Israel, as welcomed as it would have been, would be an act of senseless insincerity, because the two countries (along with many others) operate with this same "we-are-the-victim" mindset.

* * * * *

A prime cause of this inversion is the distortion in perception brought about by rank tribalism. Those whose worldview is shaped by their identification as members of a particular religious, nationalistic, or ethnic group invariably over-value the wrongs done to them and greatly under-value the wrongs their group perpetrates. Those whose world view is shaped by tribalism are typically plagued by an extreme persecution complex (the whole world is against us!!! (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/netanyahu-was-right-1.293886); everyone who criticizes us is hateful (http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3839044,00.html) and biased!!! (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,552420,00.html)). Haaretz today reports (http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-republicans-and-democrats-show-rare-sign-of-unity-in-support-of-gaza-flotilla-raid-1.293801) that "Jewish Republicans and Democrats in the U.S. gave a rare demonstration of unity on Wednesday when they backed Israel's raid of a Gaza-bound humanitarian aid flotilla." Gee, whatever could account for that "rare demonstration of unity" between these left-wing Jewish progressives and hard-core, Jewish right-wing war cheerleaders who agree on virtually nothing else? My, it's such a mystery.

I can't express how many emails I've received over the last week, from self-identified Jewish readers (almost exclusively), along the lines of: I'm a true progressive, agree with you on virtually every issue, but hate your views on Israel. When it comes to Israel, we see the same mindset from otherwise admirable Jewish progressives such as Anthony Weiner, Jerry Nadler, Eliot Spitzer, Alan Grayson, and (after a brief stint of deviation) Barney Frank (http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/06/02/the-spin-is-in/). On this one issue, they magically abandon their opposition to military attacks on civilians, their defense of weaker groups being bullied and occupied by far stronger factions, their belief that unilateral military attacks are unjustified, and suddenly find common cause with Charles Krauthammer, The Weekly Standard, and the Bush administration in justifying even the most heinous Israeli crimes of aggression.

It will never cease to be mystifying (at least to me) that they never question why they suddenly view the world so differently when it comes to Israel. They never wonder to themselves:

I had it continuously drummed into my head from the time I was a small child, from every direction, that Israel was special and was to be cherished, that it's fundamentally good but persecuted and victimized by Evil Arab forces surrounding it, that I am a part of that group and should see the world accordingly. Is this tribal identity which was pummeled into me from childhood -- rather than some independent, dispassionate analysis -- the reason I find myself perpetually sympathizing with and defending Israel?

Doesn't the most minimal level of intellectual awareness -- indeed, the concept of adulthood itself -- require that re-analysis? And, of course, the "self-hating" epithet -- with which I've naturally been bombaded relentlessly over the last week -- is explicitly grounded in the premise that one should automatically defend one's "own group" rather than endeaveor to objectively assess facts and determine what is right and true.

This tribalism is hardly unique to Israel and Jews; it's instead universal. As the Bush years illustrated, there is no shortage of Americans who "reason" the same way:

I was taught from childhood that America is right and thus, even in adulthood, defend America no matter what it does; my duty as an American is to defend and justify what America does and any American who criticizes the U.S. is "self-hating" and anti-American; the wrongs perpetrated by Us to Them pale in comparison to the wrongs perpetrated by Them on U.S.

Or listen to Fox News fear-mongers declare how Christians in the U.S. and/or white males -- comprising the vast majority of the population and every power structure in the country -- are the Real Persecuted Victims, from the War on Christmas to affirmative action evils. Ronald Reagan even managed to convince much of the country that the true economic injustices in America were caused by rich black women driving their Cadillacs to collect their welfare checks. This kind of blinding, all-consuming tribalism leads members of even the most powerful group to convince themselves that they are deeply victimized by those who are far weaker, whose necks have been under the boots of the stronger group for decades, if not longer.

That's just the standard symptom of the disease of tribalism and it finds expression everywhere, in every group. It's just far more significant -- and far more destructive -- when the groups convincing themselves that they are the Weak and Bullied Victims are actually the strongest forces by far on the planet, with the greatest amount of weaponry and aggression, who have been finding justifications for so long for their slaughtering of civilians that, as Israeli Amos Oz suggested this week about his country (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/02/opinion/02oz.html), there are virtually no limits left on the naked aggression that will be justified. Thus, even when Israel attacks a ship full of civilians and wheelchairs in international waters and kills at least 9 human beings, this is depicted by its tribal loyalists as an act of justified self-defense against the Real Aggressors.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Glenn Greenwald has a great piece on this whole fiasco, read the whole thing hear (http://www.salon.com/news/israel/index.html?story=/opinion/greenwald/2010/06/03/israel).


––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––
Thus, nuclear-armed Israel is bullied and victimized by starving Gazans with stones. The Israel Navy is threatened by a flotilla filled with wheelchairs and medicine. And the greatest superpower the Earth has ever known faces a grave and existential threat from a handful of religious fanatics hiding in caves. An American condemnation of Israel, as welcomed as it would have been, would be an act of senseless insincerity, because the two countries (along with many others) operate with this same "we-are-the-victim" mindset.

* * * * *

A prime cause of this inversion is the distortion in perception brought about by rank tribalism. Those whose worldview is shaped by their identification as members of a particular religious, nationalistic, or ethnic group invariably over-value the wrongs done to them and greatly under-value the wrongs their group perpetrates. Those whose world view is shaped by tribalism are typically plagued by an extreme persecution complex (the whole world is against us!!! (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/netanyahu-was-right-1.293886); everyone who criticizes us is hateful (http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3839044,00.html) and biased!!! (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,552420,00.html)). Haaretz today reports (http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-republicans-and-democrats-show-rare-sign-of-unity-in-support-of-gaza-flotilla-raid-1.293801) that "Jewish Republicans and Democrats in the U.S. gave a rare demonstration of unity on Wednesday when they backed Israel's raid of a Gaza-bound humanitarian aid flotilla." Gee, whatever could account for that "rare demonstration of unity" between these left-wing Jewish progressives and hard-core, Jewish right-wing war cheerleaders who agree on virtually nothing else? My, it's such a mystery.

I can't express how many emails I've received over the last week, from self-identified Jewish readers (almost exclusively), along the lines of: I'm a true progressive, agree with you on virtually every issue, but hate your views on Israel. When it comes to Israel, we see the same mindset from otherwise admirable Jewish progressives such as Anthony Weiner, Jerry Nadler, Eliot Spitzer, Alan Grayson, and (after a brief stint of deviation) Barney Frank (http://www.balloon-juice.com/2010/06/02/the-spin-is-in/). On this one issue, they magically abandon their opposition to military attacks on civilians, their defense of weaker groups being bullied and occupied by far stronger factions, their belief that unilateral military attacks are unjustified, and suddenly find common cause with Charles Krauthammer, The Weekly Standard, and the Bush administration in justifying even the most heinous Israeli crimes of aggression.

It will never cease to be mystifying (at least to me) that they never question why they suddenly view the world so differently when it comes to Israel. They never wonder to themselves:

I had it continuously drummed into my head from the time I was a small child, from every direction, that Israel was special and was to be cherished, that it's fundamentally good but persecuted and victimized by Evil Arab forces surrounding it, that I am a part of that group and should see the world accordingly. Is this tribal identity which was pummeled into me from childhood -- rather than some independent, dispassionate analysis -- the reason I find myself perpetually sympathizing with and defending Israel?

Doesn't the most minimal level of intellectual awareness -- indeed, the concept of adulthood itself -- require that re-analysis? And, of course, the "self-hating" epithet -- with which I've naturally been bombaded relentlessly over the last week -- is explicitly grounded in the premise that one should automatically defend one's "own group" rather than endeaveor to objectively assess facts and determine what is right and true.

This tribalism is hardly unique to Israel and Jews; it's instead universal. As the Bush years illustrated, there is no shortage of Americans who "reason" the same way:

I was taught from childhood that America is right and thus, even in adulthood, defend America no matter what it does; my duty as an American is to defend and justify what America does and any American who criticizes the U.S. is "self-hating" and anti-American; the wrongs perpetrated by Us to Them pale in comparison to the wrongs perpetrated by Them on U.S.

Or listen to Fox News fear-mongers declare how Christians in the U.S. and/or white males -- comprising the vast majority of the population and every power structure in the country -- are the Real Persecuted Victims, from the War on Christmas to affirmative action evils. Ronald Reagan even managed to convince much of the country that the true economic injustices in America were caused by rich black women driving their Cadillacs to collect their welfare checks. This kind of blinding, all-consuming tribalism leads members of even the most powerful group to convince themselves that they are deeply victimized by those who are far weaker, whose necks have been under the boots of the stronger group for decades, if not longer.

That's just the standard symptom of the disease of tribalism and it finds expression everywhere, in every group. It's just far more significant -- and far more destructive -- when the groups convincing themselves that they are the Weak and Bullied Victims are actually the strongest forces by far on the planet, with the greatest amount of weaponry and aggression, who have been finding justifications for so long for their slaughtering of civilians that, as Israeli Amos Oz suggested this week about his country (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/02/opinion/02oz.html), there are virtually no limits left on the naked aggression that will be justified. Thus, even when Israel attacks a ship full of civilians and wheelchairs in international waters and kills at least 9 human beings, this is depicted by its tribal loyalists as an act of justified self-defense against the Real Aggressors.

What a terrible piece of analysis.

None of these morons ever want to talk about how the entire muslim world are using the Palestinian land to stage attacks on Israel.

Israel are not doing this because they are mean. They are doing it because they are literally at risk every day of every year. The whole region is anxiously awaiting the day that they can charge across Israeli borders and kill every Jew there.

Quit buying the muslim propaganda.

[DenverBrit]

In the last 10 years that makes a 2 months blockade of Lebanon and the ongoing blockade of Gaza both by Israel, in fact in the last 20 years only one blockade has been carried out by a party other than Israel (NATO).

If by allow you mean enables then yes. Doing something doesn't make it legal, piracy goes back to before Columbus' journey to the West Indies (a few 100 years before Napoleon), but that doesn't mean you can just do it.

Again, had this taken place in Israeli waters no problem, it was a botched operation and could have been handled better but in Israeli waters it is their right to inspect vessels and if necesary divert them to a controlled port to ensure control with the goods.


I posted this in a reply to Gaffney. But basically, Israel is within its rights to declare a blockade and inspect ships in international waters if they are headed towards Gaza. Their excessive use of force is really the issue that has to be investigated.

Under the law of a blockade, intercepting a vessel could apply globally so long as a ship is bound for a "belligerent" territory, legal experts say

[El Minion]

What a terrible piece of analysis.

None of these morons ever want to talk about how the entire muslim world are using the Palestinian land to stage attacks on Israel.

Israel are not doing this because they are mean. They are doing it because they are literally at risk every day of every year. The whole region is anxiously awaiting the day that they can charge across Israeli borders and kill every Jew there.

Quit buying the muslim propaganda.

And the aggressor is the victim, thanks for proving his point. By any means necessary, like four shots to the head to protect Israel from the american teenager brining aid to the Israeli enforced quarantine of the Palestinians. Wont matter though as Israel will soon wipe out all of Palestine right to exist from the face of the earth with America as an enabler.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/Israel_stealing_palestine.jpg

[epicSocialism4tw]

And the aggressor is the victim, thanks for proving his point. By any means necessary, like four shots to the head to protect Israel from the american teenager brining aid to the Israeli enforced quarantine of the Palestinians. Wont matter though as Israel will soon wipe out all of Palestine right to exist from the face of the earth with America as an enabler.


You have been propagandized by Al Jazeera and clowns like Gaffney, who at their core are supporting the destruction of Israel and the anihilation of the Jews.

I guess the Nazi's never really went away. They just handed over the torch to you guys.

[El Minion]

You have been propagandized by Al Jazeera and clowns like Gaffney, who at their core are supporting the destruction of Israel and the anihilation of the Jews.

I guess the Nazi's never really went away. They just handed over the torch to you guys.

Let me guess you would fully support Israel if they nuked Gaza and wiped out all the Palestinians, all in the name of Israel right to exist. That is the genocide that is palatable to the group-think supporters of Israeli actions against Palestinians and civilians.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Let me guess you would fully support Israel if they nuked Gaza and wiped out all the Palestinians, all in the name of Israel right to exist. That is the genocide that is palatable to the group-think supporters of Israeli actions against Palestinians and civilians.

LOL

Wow...that's quite a jump in logic. All Israel wants is security. That's not too much to ask given that nearly every country in the region is ready to start launching nukes into Jerusalem.

You guys are too gullible. You dont even realize how ugly your position looks to anyone with enough brains to see through the muslim propaganda. You are advocating the forceful destruction of Israel, which will result in genocide.

Pretty sick. You have more in common with Adolf Hitler than you do with Harry Truman.

[mhgaffney]

LOL

Wow...that's quite a jump in logic. All Israel wants is security. That's not too much to ask given that nearly every country in the region is ready to start launching nukes into Jerusalem.

You guys are too gullible. You dont even realize how ugly your position looks to anyone with enough brains to see through the muslim propaganda. You are advocating the forceful destruction of Israel, which will result in genocide.

Pretty sick. You have more in common with Adolf Hitler than you do with Harry Truman.

No Brit,

It's you who have internalized propaganda. You are regurgitating the Zionist party line verbatim.

The existence of Israel has never been in doubt. Its survival has never been threatened by the Arabs -- not even once -- not in 1948, nor in 1967, nor in 1973 -- nor any time since.

I know this is a hard pill for you to swallow. But it happens to be the truth.

Do yourself a favor. Listen to this interview with Alan Hart, who covered Palestine for the BBC, and had friends and contacts on both sides of the conflict.

He has just published a three volume history of the conflict.

Hart was there for the 1967 war -- and in this interview he presents a brilliant analysis of the history. He also happens to be correct.

http://edwardrynearson.wordpress.com/2010/05/25/alan-hart/

[El Minion]

LOL

Wow...that's quite a jump in logic. All Israel wants is security. That's not too much to ask given that nearly every country in the region is ready to start launching nukes into Jerusalem.

You guys are too gullible. You dont even realize how ugly your position looks to anyone with enough brains to see through the muslim propaganda. You are advocating the forceful destruction of Israel, which will result in genocide.

Pretty sick. You have more in common with Adolf Hitler than you do with Harry Truman.

muslim propaganda?!?!? ROFL! There is no reasoning with you, you will excuse and justify any and all aggression actions by the Israelis against Palestinians and civilians alike, regardless of law, all for Israeli security. Carte blanche. But I'm the Nazi for being concerned for the oppressed people living in Gaza, the majority I have read are children. Some lives or more equal than others to you, the least being muslims.

––––––––––––––––––––––
THURSDAY, JUN 3, 2010 15:30 ET
Edward Peck: Israel "smearing" the opposition (http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/06/03/edward_peck_on_gaza/index.html)
BY ANIKA ANAND
http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/06/03/edward_peck_on_gaza/md_horiz.jpgReuters/Kevin Lamarque
Edward Peck, a former U.S. Ambassador to Mauritania, speaks to demonstrators in front of the White House in Washington June 1, 2010 about his experience aboard a Gaza aid ship as that was seized by Israeli commandos.


Edward Peck, a career foreign service officer and former ambassador, was with the Gaza-bound humanitarian flotilla that was raided by Israel on Monday. He was detained by Israel, processed and expelled from the country. Now back in the United States, he spoke with Salon on Thursday.

What do you think of the American media coverage of this event?

Here's the thing. I just got off a radio interview. One of the things that distresses me is the extent to which Israel has been successful in, for example, getting Americans to ask questions as to why the passengers on that big Turkish ship attacked the Israeli soldiers.

I said, wait a minute, wait a minute, they were defending the ship against people who were attacking it. You've got it backwards. There are civilians, men and woman, on a Turkish-flagged vessel, in international waters. And here comes a group of heavily armed -- forget the paintball story -- heavily armed guys who are going to take over the ship by force and then take it to Israel, where the passengers don't want to go. And so they pick up deck chairs and other things to fight off these heavily armed -- and by the way, masked -- commandos, and somehow they become the attackers. So, that depresses me a little bit.

Leaving aside the horrible bloodshed and all, it becomes a war of words. Americans are reading what comes out of Tel Aviv, which is carried in the American press ... So, all of a sudden, the people on the Turkish ship are described as terrorist, Israel-hating, Hamas supporters, murderers and killers. I say to myself, What would you expect the Israelis to call these people? Tree-hugging environmentalists? No, they're all killers! Every single one of them. It's called smearing the opposition. And the press seems to take that. And I find that distressing. It's the use of the language that concerns me. Who's defending and who's attacking?

What questions do you think the media should be asking right now?

They should be focused on the fact that Israel illegally occupies Gaza, as recognized by the rest of the world. Therefore, Israel says you can't come into this territory because we're defending ourselves. Well, not really. Taking a ship on the high seas, if it happens off the coast of Somalia, is called piracy. If Israel claims that it's defending itself by keeping ships out, they can do it. Nobody seems to be able to stop them, or even criticize them for it if they're Americans. But that's illegal.

I offer you a further illustration of this issue. When I was taken off [the] ship in Ashdod, an Israeli official told me I was going to be deported. And I said, OK. He said, You broke an Israeli law. I said, Excuse me, I just got here, what Israeli law have I broken? And he said you came into Israel illegally. I said, OK, the ship was captured by force and I'm brought here by force, under duress, and forced into your country against my will and you call that illegal entry? We're not speaking the same language. But, of course, that's why they deported me, because I entered illegally and didn't want to.

Americans need to understand that no one in his or her right mind wants anything bad to happen to one Israeli, to one Palestinian, and in my case, above all, one American. But, bad things have happened, are happening, and are going to happen.

Thomas Friedman and Jeffrey Goldberg are both suggesting that the flotilla was not a humanitarian mission, but a political setup. How would you respond?

I would have to ask you, How the hell would they know? Sitting behind their desks, wherever it was. And the second question I would ask is, Are they known as critics of Israel? And the anwer to that question is no, they are not. I don't fault them for this. But they are known as card-carrying supporters of Israel. OK, you're allowed to do that. But don't expect me to take what you have to say as necessarily the unquestionable truth. Both of these are intelligent journalists and honorable men and all that, but their views are different than mine. So if you asked me what I think about what they wrote, I would have to respond with a Bronx cheer -- when you stick your tongue out and make a rousing noise.

I tend to discount what comes from hard-line anti-Israelis and strong-held pro-Israels, because you get their opinions, which aren't necessarily related to the facts.

Why do you think this incident, as opposed to Gaza in 2009, has attracted so much interest here?

It's partly because there were people involved from 30 countries. This is the sort of thing that organizers worked hard to get done -- despite what Mr. Friedman and Mr. Goldberg said -- to get activists, people who are aware of what is, and isn't, going on in Gaza. You can accuse that of being politically motivated. That's true to a degree. The idea was a humanitarian program.

[epicSocialism4tw]

No Brit,

It's you who have internalized propaganda. You are regurgitating the Zionist party line verbatim.

The existence of Israel has never been in doubt. Its survival has never been threatened by the Arabs -- not even once -- not in 1948, nor in 1967, nor in 1973 -- nor any time since.

I know this is a hard pill for you to swallow. But it happens to be the truth.

Do yourself a favor. Listen to this interview with Alan Hart, who covered Palestine for the BBC, and had friends and contacts on both sides of the conflict.

He has just published a three volume history of the conflict.

Hart was there for the 1967 war -- and in this interview he presents a brilliant analysis of the history. He also happens to be correct.

http://edwardrynearson.wordpress.com/2010/05/25/alan-hart/

Thanks but no thanks, Hitler. I'm not interested in wiping the Jews off the face of the earth like you are.

[mhgaffney]

You think its just an Israeli blockade? You know Gaza shares a border with Egypt, right?

And Egypt, much like Israel has sealed their Gaza border too. But I suppose that is all part of the Zionist plot, right?

Dumb ****.

:Broncos:

Egypt is a client of the US.

Egypt receives $2 billion a year from the US in aid.

Egypt's leaders do what they are told (by Washington). Which is to support Israel's blockade.

Obviously -- the US government fully supports Israel's blockade. This in itself should be a matter of concern for every American who believes in fairness, justice and freedom.

[mhgaffney]

McSkillet,

I have always supported Israel's right to exist.

But these days that is not good enough.

Today, Israel is demanding that Americans support their agenda -- their long term project for hegemony of the MIdeast.

This includes nuclear supremacy.

It's about keeping the darkies on their knees. If they raise their heads -- then we blow them away.

This is the goal. Israel is the only nation on earth that has refused to declare its borders. Why?

Because the Zionist project has no end. They will continue to expand until someone stops them.

Hate to hit you with this bad news. But it's the truth.

Israel is therefor it's own worst enemy. Peace activists like me are Israel's truest friend. We have to help the Zionist fanatics to come to their senses -- before they destroy the planet.

It comes down to this.

MHG

[epicSocialism4tw]

Egypt is a client of the US.

Egypt receives $2 billion a year from the US in aid.

Egypt's leaders do what they are told (by Washington). Which is to support Israel's blockade.

Obviously -- the US government fully supports Israel's blockade. This in itself should be a matter of concern for every American who believes in fairness, justice and freedom.

The only freedom that you are interested in is the freedom of Hamas and Al-Qaeda to launch attacks on innocent Israeli civilians.

[El Minion]

More muslim propaganda

––––––––––––––––––––––
Under Scrutiny, IDF Retracts Claims About Flotilla’s Al Qaeda Links (http://maxblumenthal.com/2010/06/under-scrutiny-idf-retracts-claims-about-flotillas-al-qaeda-links/)

When placed under journalistic scrutiny, the IDF is being forced to admit that its claims about the flotilla’s links to international terror are based on innuendo, not facts. On June 2, the IDF blasted out a press release (http://dover.idf.il/IDF/English/News/today/10/06/0201.htm) to reporters and bloggers with the shocking headline: “Attackers of the IDF soldiers found to be Al Qaeda mercenaries.” The only supporting evidence offered in the release was a claim that the passengers “were equipped with bullet proof vests, night vision goggles, and weapons.” A screen capture of the press release is below:

http://maxblumenthal.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/qaeda-mercenary-lie.jpg

The IDF distributed this press release on June 2. The following day, it changed the headline, essentially retracting its lurid accusation.

Not content to believe that night vision goggles signal membership in Al Qaeda, Israel-based freelance reporter Lia Tarachansky and I called the IDF press office to ask for more conclusive evidence. Tarachansky reached the IDF’s Israel desk, interviewing a spokesperson in Hebrew; I spoke with the North America desk, using English. We both received the same reply from Army spokespeople: “We don’t have any evidence. The press release was based on information from the [Israeli] National Security Council.” (The Israeli National Security Council is Netanyahu’s kitchen cabinet of advisors).

Today, the Israeli Army’s press office changed the headline of its press release (see below), basically retracting its claim about the flotilla’s Al Qaeda links. The new headline (http://dover.idf.il/IDF/English/News/today/10/06/0201.htm) reads: “Attackers of the IDF Soldiers Found Without Identification Papers” (the top of the browser screen still contains the original headline about Al Qaeda). The more Israel’s claims about the flotilla’s terrorist links are challenged, the more they fall apart.

http://maxblumenthal.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/qaeda-lie-changed.jpg

After admitting "there is no evidence" to back up its claim about the flotilla's Qaeda links, the IDF quietly changed the headline of its press release.

[W*GS]

Remember, folks...

gaff-o is an effing Nazi.

[mhgaffney]

Hey Mcskillet, answer this. Since Israel has never declared its final borders -- which Israeli state is Hamas supposed to recognize?

You should be demanding that Israel agree to final borders -- consistent with UN Security Council Resolutions. This could lead to a peace settlement.

So far -- Israel refuses. Its borders are open ended.

It's the reason Hamas refuses to recognize Israel. And it's logical and understandable.

During the 1990s --- millions of Palestinians demonstrated for a peace settlement -- and they were betrayed by Israel and the US. Israel had promised to stop building settlements -- but continued anyway.

Israel exploited the good faith of the Palestinians -- to steal more and more land and build facts on the ground.

This betrayal of Arafat and the PLO -- strengthened Hamas.

You need to shut your big mouth and listen. Learn something. The truth can set you free.

MHG

[sirhcyennek81]

Hey Mcskillet, answer this. Since Israel has never declared its final borders -- which Israeli state is Hamas supposed to recognize?

You should be demanding that Israel agree to final borders -- consistent with UN Security Council Resolutions. This could lead to a peace settlement.

So far -- Israel refuses. Its borders are open ended.

It's the reason Hamas refuses to recognize Israel. And it's logical and understandable.

During the 1990s --- millions of Palestinians demonstrated for a peace settlement -- and they were betrayed by Israel and the US. Israel had promised to stop building settlements -- but continued anyway.

Israel exploited the good faith of the Palestinians -- to steal more and more land and build facts on the ground.

This betrayal of Arafat and the PLO -- strengthened Hamas.

You need to shut your big mouth and listen. Learn something. The truth can set you free.

MHG


I find it amusing you expect a country the size of Delaware to cede land to create a palestinian state when Jordan (same exact people as the palestinians) already exists.

Also amusing you blame Israel for the palestinian crisis when it was the Arab states that created it in the first place. So you condemn Israel for doing what it needs to do to survive as a country while tacitly condoning arab behavior throughout the 20th century.

Which basically means you are no different then the Nazis.

But bring up more links from a site from a nutbag who believes the same nonsense you do. I am sure you will convince someone someday.

:Broncos:

[DenverBrit]

muslim propaganda?!?!? ROFL! There is no reasoning with you, you will excuse and justify any and all aggression actions by the Israelis against Palestinians and civilians alike, regardless of law, all for Israeli security. Carte blanche. But I'm the Nazi for being concerned for the oppressed people living in Gaza, the majority I have read are children. Some lives or more equal than others to you, the least being muslims.

––––––––––––––––––––––
THURSDAY, JUN 3, 2010 15:30 ET
Edward Peck: Israel "smearing" the opposition (http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/06/03/edward_peck_on_gaza/index.html)
BY ANIKA ANAND
http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/06/03/edward_peck_on_gaza/md_horiz.jpgReuters/Kevin Lamarque
Edward Peck, a former U.S. Ambassador to Mauritania, speaks to demonstrators in front of the White House in Washington June 1, 2010 about his experience aboard a Gaza aid ship as that was seized by Israeli commandos.


Edward Peck, a career foreign service officer and former ambassador, was with the Gaza-bound humanitarian flotilla that was raided by Israel on Monday. He was detained by Israel, processed and expelled from the country. Now back in the United States, he spoke with Salon on Thursday.

What do you think of the American media coverage of this event?

Here's the thing. I just got off a radio interview. One of the things that distresses me is the extent to which Israel has been successful in, for example, getting Americans to ask questions as to why the passengers on that big Turkish ship attacked the Israeli soldiers.

I said, wait a minute, wait a minute, they were defending the ship against people who were attacking it. You've got it backwards. There are civilians, men and woman, on a Turkish-flagged vessel, in international waters. And here comes a group of heavily armed -- forget the paintball story -- heavily armed guys who are going to take over the ship by force and then take it to Israel, where the passengers don't want to go. And so they pick up deck chairs and other things to fight off these heavily armed -- and by the way, masked -- commandos, and somehow they become the attackers. So, that depresses me a little bit.

Leaving aside the horrible bloodshed and all, it becomes a war of words. Americans are reading what comes out of Tel Aviv, which is carried in the American press ... So, all of a sudden, the people on the Turkish ship are described as terrorist, Israel-hating, Hamas supporters, murderers and killers. I say to myself, What would you expect the Israelis to call these people? Tree-hugging environmentalists? No, they're all killers! Every single one of them. It's called smearing the opposition. And the press seems to take that. And I find that distressing. It's the use of the language that concerns me. Who's defending and who's attacking?

What questions do you think the media should be asking right now?

They should be focused on the fact that Israel illegally occupies Gaza, as recognized by the rest of the world. Therefore, Israel says you can't come into this territory because we're defending ourselves. Well, not really. Taking a ship on the high seas, if it happens off the coast of Somalia, is called piracy. If Israel claims that it's defending itself by keeping ships out, they can do it. Nobody seems to be able to stop them, or even criticize them for it if they're Americans. But that's illegal.

I offer you a further illustration of this issue. When I was taken off [the] ship in Ashdod, an Israeli official told me I was going to be deported. And I said, OK. He said, You broke an Israeli law. I said, Excuse me, I just got here, what Israeli law have I broken? And he said you came into Israel illegally. I said, OK, the ship was captured by force and I'm brought here by force, under duress, and forced into your country against my will and you call that illegal entry? We're not speaking the same language. But, of course, that's why they deported me, because I entered illegally and didn't want to.

Americans need to understand that no one in his or her right mind wants anything bad to happen to one Israeli, to one Palestinian, and in my case, above all, one American. But, bad things have happened, are happening, and are going to happen.

Thomas Friedman and Jeffrey Goldberg are both suggesting that the flotilla was not a humanitarian mission, but a political setup. How would you respond?

I would have to ask you, How the hell would they know? Sitting behind their desks, wherever it was. And the second question I would ask is, Are they known as critics of Israel? And the anwer to that question is no, they are not. I don't fault them for this. But they are known as card-carrying supporters of Israel. OK, you're allowed to do that. But don't expect me to take what you have to say as necessarily the unquestionable truth. Both of these are intelligent journalists and honorable men and all that, but their views are different than mine. So if you asked me what I think about what they wrote, I would have to respond with a Bronx cheer -- when you stick your tongue out and make a rousing noise.

I tend to discount what comes from hard-line anti-Israelis and strong-held pro-Israels, because you get their opinions, which aren't necessarily related to the facts.

Why do you think this incident, as opposed to Gaza in 2009, has attracted so much interest here?

It's partly because there were people involved from 30 countries. This is the sort of thing that organizers worked hard to get done -- despite what Mr. Friedman and Mr. Goldberg said -- to get activists, people who are aware of what is, and isn't, going on in Gaza. You can accuse that of being politically motivated. That's true to a degree. The idea was a humanitarian program.

You really should read the piece I posted earlier in this thread.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2856134&postcount=147

[DenverBrit]

This is a well reasoned description of why Gaza has become such a contentious issue and why there will be no peace with Hamas in control.


Alan Dershowitz
Lawyer and author
Posted: March 14, 2008 04:11 PM

The Hamas Government Has Declared War Against Israel: How Should Israel Respond?

Article 51 of the United Nations Charter guarantees its members "the inherent right to...individual self defense" against "an armed attack." In January of 2006, Hamas was elected to govern the Palestinian Authority. After Israel ended its occupation of Gaza and removed all of its settlers, Hamas threw the Palestinian Authority out of the Gaza and assumed de facto as well as de jure control over the entire Gaza Strip. Its leaders then instructed its military wing to direct rockets at civilian targets in southern Israel.

At first these rockets were Qassams with a relatively short range. Now they include Katyushas, which can reach to Israel's large cities, including Ashkelon, with its population of 120,000 civilians. Hamas has officially declared that its policy is to develop or smuggle even longer range missiles capable of reaching Israel's largest city Tel Aviv and its lifeblood, Ben Gurion Airport. It has promised to keep aiming its missiles at civilian targets until the Jewish state is finally destroyed.

If this is not an "armed attack" under Article 51, then I don't know what is. The only argument against it being an armed attack is that rocketing civilian population centers, as Hamas is doing, is a war-crime. International law prohibits, even during a declared war, the deliberate targeting of civilians or the bombing of areas of civilian population centers with absolutely no military significance. But war-crimes may also constitute an armed attack: Hitler's invasion of Poland was both, as the Nuremberg Tribunal determined. If anything, an armed attack that is also a war crime justifies the right of self defense even more than a mere armed attack.

Nor can it be said that these attacks on Israeli towns and cities are merely the work of individual terrorists or terrorist groups. The military wing of Hamas is in fact a terrorist organization, as the Untied States and the European Community have recognized. But since Hamas is in political and military control of the liberated Gaza Strip, the military wing of Hamas is also the official army of that government, as Hamas itself has proclaimed.

What then are Israel's rights under international law, under the law of war, under historical precedents and under various treaties and human rights concepts? What have, and what would, other nations whose cities and towns were attacked by enemy rockets do? Israel certainly has the right to counterattack its enemy, destroy its capacity to fire rockets and engage in "belligerent reprisal." The only constraint on Israeli action is "proportionality." Israel's military actions must be proportional. But proportional to what? Certainly not to the actual number of people who have thus far been killed or injured by rocket attacks.

Israel has spent an enormous amount of money building shelters to protect against rockets. Close to a thousand rockets have been aimed at southern Israel in recent years. Each one of them had the capacity to kill dozens, if not hundreds of civilians. The fact that no Hamas rocket has yet hit a school bus, a kindergarten, an ambulance, a synagogue, or a school yard is simply happenstance. It is only a matter of time until this happens. No nation has to wait until the goals of its enemy are fulfilled before it engages in a proportional response. Proportion must be defined by reference to the threat posed by the enemy and not by the harm it has produced. No nation need allow its enemies to play Russian Roulette with its children.

Israel has tried several options, each of which has been condemned by vocal members of the international community, human rights groups and religious organizations - some of whom have been silent about the Hamas war crimes that precipitated the Israeli actions. Israel has tried economic sanctions, border controls, targeted attacks on terrorists and ground incursions. Each of these generally acceptable war measures carry with it the risk of some civilian casualties. The reason for this is that the distinction between combatants and civilians has deliberately been blurred by Hamas. Rockets are fired from densely populated areas, precisely in order to force Israel into choosing between allowing its own civilians to continue to be killed by its inaction, or taking actions that risk hurting killing some Palestinian civilians.

Either way Hamas wins. If Israel does nothing, then Hamas accuses it of impotence. If it does something, then Hamas accuses it if disproportionally. Hamas leader Khaled Mashal characterized Israel's military actions in Gaza as "the real Holocaust." Even Mahmoud Abbas, the so-called moderate Palestinian leader in the West Bank said that Israel's military efforts to stop the rockets was "more than a Holocaust".

The time has come for Israel's critics to tell Israel what it should do in the face of these escalating rocket attacks on its civilian population centers. If economic sanctions, border controls, targeting terrorists and ground incursions should not be done, what are the alternatives?

The answer to this question is important not only to Israel, but to the United States and other democratic nations that will surely face the prospect of having to take actions to prevent terrorist attacks by enemies who deliberately hide among civilians. The barrage of unconstructive criticism directed against Israeli self-defense actions will only encourage more terrorism of this kind.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alan-dershowitz/the-hamas-government-has-_b_91630.html

[W*GS]

gaff-o - a simple question...

How many Jews died in the Holocaust?

Answer, or **** off.

[gyldenlove]

I posted this in a reply to Gaffney. But basically, Israel is within its rights to declare a blockade and inspect ships in international waters if they are headed towards Gaza. Their excessive use of force is really the issue that has to be investigated.

The problem is that for a blockade to be legal it must be against a belligerent state in an international armed conflict. Gaza is not a state and Israel will be the last country to ever accept Gaza's status as a state. There is no doubt that there is armed conflict going on to some extend, but since Israel is treating the situation as an insurgency and not a war (for legal reasons, amongst others that means they do not have to observe the Geneva convention) it is pretty dicey if they can declare a blockade legally.

The only other case I can find of a non international armed conflict blockade is the union blockading the confederacy, but that blockade was by the international society deemed a declaration of war that afforded the confederacy belligerency status which allowed many European countries to declare neutrality and deal unobstructed with both parties (and they did).

I don't know of a loophole that would make the blockade legal without forcing Israel to accept Gaza's status as a sovereign state.

On the other hand since Gaza is not a state, Israel holds territorial rights to waters off the coast and could easily and legally search and detain all suspect ships heading for Gaza ports.

[cutthemdown]

Gaff probably doesn't believe millions of Jews died in at the hands of the Nazi's.

[mhgaffney]

Gaff probably doesn't believe millions of Jews died in at the hands of the Nazi's.

Cut,

Don't put words in my mouth, please. I have never disputed the standard figures about the Holocaust.

At the same time, why is research into the Holocaust viewed as taboo? And why do Zionists attack scholars who do this research? That is wrong.

I also repeat my question to W*gs -- Why is it illegal in Israel for Israeli Arabs to talk about the Palestinian Holocaust -- the Nakba? They can be arrested for even speaking about it in public.

He has no answered the question. But the answer is obvious. The nation of Israel is in denial about the many crimes that the Israeli army committed in 1947-49.

[mhgaffney]

I find it amusing you expect a country the size of Delaware to cede land to create a palestinian state when Jordan (same exact people as the palestinians) already exists.

Also amusing you blame Israel for the palestinian crisis when it was the Arab states that created it in the first place. So you condemn Israel for doing what it needs to do to survive as a country while tacitly condoning arab behavior throughout the 20th century.

Which basically means you are no different then the Nazis.

But bring up more links from a site from a nutbag who believes the same nonsense you do. I am sure you will convince someone someday.

:Broncos:

Sirhcy,

No one is saying the Israelis should cede land to the Palestinians. It is already Palestinian land -- currently under illegal occupation by Israel. When I say "illegal" I mean exactly that.

We are talking about lands taken by military conquest in the 1967 six day war. The UN and the entire world regards Israel's military occupation of these lands -- the W Bank -- as illegal.

So Israel should simply withdraw its army.

As for your claim that the Arab states started this conflict, not true. You are reciting the standard history we all know. Problem is, that history is a big fib.

I suggest you stop listening to the US media --and do some real research.

Start by listening to this excellent interview with Alan Hart, former BBC journalist. Hart was on the scene in 1967. He has just published a three-volume history of the conflict.

This is the real history -- which has never been reported on US TV.
http://edwardrynearson.wordpress.com/2010/05/25/alan-hart/

[mhgaffney]

Interview with Israeli Spokesperson Mark Regev

Check out this excellent interview -- which I believe aired in the UK.

Why don't we have reporting of this caliber here in the US?

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25617.htm

It's clear the crisis is not over. If the Turks send a naval vessel to escort the next aid ship -- the confrontation could escalate.

This is a very dangerous situation -- and Obama is utterly powerless to do anything about it.

This tells us the US has lost its role as world leader. The tail (Israel) is now wagging the dog (USA).

[cutthemdown]

Obama needs to pressure the Turks to stand down. If Obama let's the Turkish Navy and the Israeli navy tangle he's making a big mistake.

[sirhcyennek81]

As for your claim that the Arab states started this conflict, not true.


History does not change simply because you wish it to.

After the Arabs attacked Israel in 1949, The Arab states forced the Jews in occupied territories out. They went to Israel. Israel responded in kind, kicking out Arabs. Who were stuck in occupied territory and not permitted to emigrate to surrounding Arab states. The Arab states insisted on a "right of return", which would have made Israel an arab-majority country. That is not going to happen right after the Israeli's pushed so hard for a country of their own. So these refugees become political chips rather than people.

I know it bugs you for some reason to paint the Arabs in a bad light, but you strike me as the type that thinks a country the size of Israel with less then 5% of the population of the rest of the middle east is the problem. Also funny that the "palestinians" did not consider themselves seperate from the arabs in Jordan and Syria until after the 1967 6 day war and the creation of the PLO. Your anti-semitism is showing, gaff. But then again you are the fool who believes Israeli mini nukes leveled the WTC...so I am not surprised.

:Broncos:

[broncocalijohn]

amazing there are people like Gaff who think Israel should return land from the 6 day war. The same land that looks upon Israel and would be considered prime real estate for war. No way in hell would I think that Israel should give it up. How about next time a country attacks another, they better know what they can lose.

[Al Wilson]

Yup the ship was full of weapons for terrorists, which was being supported by passengers from about 20 or so nations...bunch of smart asses we have here on this board :thumbs:

It's a ****ing ship that was supplied with aid to the Palestinians because of the crisis that Israel declared on them. Yet it was attacked in international waters, and the smart members of this forum are saying that Israel was protecting itself from terrorists :)

[Bronco Yoda]

It's all Barbara Streisand's fault for wanting Beach-Gaza front property.

[Smiling Assassin27]

It's Friday, so to inject a bit of levity here...

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[W*GS]

Don't put words in my mouth, please. I have never disputed the standard figures about the Holocaust.

What are the "standard figures"?

What are the "real" numbers?

Two simple questions, gaff-o.

At the same time, why is research into the Holocaust viewed as taboo? And why do Zionists attack scholars who do this research? That is wrong.

Now you're proving you're a Jew-hater. You a Institute for Historical Review fellow?

I also repeat my question to W*gs -- Why is it illegal in Israel for Israeli Arabs to talk about the Palestinian Holocaust -- the Nakba?

Calling that event a "Holocaust" is a load of crap, and you ought to know that.

gaff-o, it's very simple - you hate Jews.

Be honest and 'fess up.

[sirhcyennek81]

Yup the ship was full of weapons for terrorists, which was being supported by passengers from about 20 or so nations...bunch of smart asses we have here on this board :thumbs:

It's a ****ing ship that was supplied with aid to the Palestinians because of the crisis that Israel declared on them. Yet it was attacked in international waters, and the smart members of this forum are saying that Israel was protecting itself from terrorists :)


Uhh...ok giggles. When members of the "peace flotilla" was saying it was about breaking the blockade and not so much the supplies, then it was intentionally designed to force a conflict with Israel. You also seem to think that its just Israel that has the gaza strip blocked off...but it shares a border with Egypt, too.

Of course its more fun to believe the Israelis are doing it by themselves. So continue with your ass backwards line of thought.

:Broncos:

[TonyR]

To read Charles Krauthammer today ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060304287.html ) is to enter a twilight zone of an alternate reality. A country permanently occupying and colonizing a neighboring region, and treating its original inhabitants as dangerous interlopers, is the victim. An elite commando unit attacking a ship carrying toys and wheelchairs in the hours before dawn are those we should feel pity for. A country with 150 nuclear warheads and the strongest military in its region, the victor in every conventional war it has always fought, is somehow also always fighting for its very existence. A country backed by the sole superpower, supplied with aid by huge majorities in the US Congress, is facing extinction. Self-defense requires not civilly disabling and inspecting the cargo of an unarmed ship but raiding it at dawn and killing nine and injuring dozens. Basic human revulsion at a military that can kill over a thousand people - including scores of women and children in a trapped, impoverished enclave - can only be a function of anti-Semitism. A territory that is being systematically populated with Israelis in illegal settlements in contravention of the Geneva Conventions is merely a "buffer zone". You need to colonize buffer zones?

Invasion and occupation of neighboring countries is "forward defense". And asking that a two-state solution be moved forward by freezing illegal settlement construction and allowing a blockade that, while interdicting arms, doesn't seek to kill civilians and restrict the import of basic necessities is to deprive a country with 150 nuclear warheads of any legitimate form of self-defense.

This is a form of derangement, or of such a passionate commitment to a foreign country that any and all normal moral rules or even basic fairness are jettisoned. And you will notice one thing as well: no regret whatsoever for the loss of human life, just as the hideous murder of so many civilians in the Gaza war had to be the responsibility of the victims, not the attackers. There is no sense of the human here; just the tribe.

Something has been wrong here for a very long time, and now it is inescapable. Until the discourse is rescued from the victims of Israel Derangement Syndrome, Israel and America will slowly be drawn into wars they cannot ultimately win, lose every other ally they ever had, and embolden and fortify the very Islamist forces we are seeking to defuse and defeat.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/06/israel-derangement-syndrome.html

[epicSocialism4tw]

To read Charles Krauthammer today ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060304287.html ) is to enter a twilight zone of an alternate reality. A country permanently occupying and colonizing a neighboring region, and treating its original inhabitants as dangerous interlopers, is the victim. An elite commando unit attacking a ship carrying toys and wheelchairs in the hours before dawn are those we should feel pity for. A country with 150 nuclear warheads and the strongest military in its region, the victor in every conventional war it has always fought, is somehow also always fighting for its very existence. A country backed by the sole superpower, supplied with aid by huge majorities in the US Congress, is facing extinction. Self-defense requires not civilly disabling and inspecting the cargo of an unarmed ship but raiding it at dawn and killing nine and injuring dozens. Basic human revulsion at a military that can kill over a thousand people - including scores of women and children in a trapped, impoverished enclave - can only be a function of anti-Semitism. A territory that is being systematically populated with Israelis in illegal settlements in contravention of the Geneva Conventions is merely a "buffer zone". You need to colonize buffer zones?

Invasion and occupation of neighboring countries is "forward defense". And asking that a two-state solution be moved forward by freezing illegal settlement construction and allowing a blockade that, while interdicting arms, doesn't seek to kill civilians and restrict the import of basic necessities is to deprive a country with 150 nuclear warheads of any legitimate form of self-defense.

This is a form of derangement, or of such a passionate commitment to a foreign country that any and all normal moral rules or even basic fairness are jettisoned. And you will notice one thing as well: no regret whatsoever for the loss of human life, just as the hideous murder of so many civilians in the Gaza war had to be the responsibility of the victims, not the attackers. There is no sense of the human here; just the tribe.

Something has been wrong here for a very long time, and now it is inescapable. Until the discourse is rescued from the victims of Israel Derangement Syndrome, Israel and America will slowly be drawn into wars they cannot ultimately win, lose every other ally they ever had, and embolden and fortify the very Islamist forces we are seeking to defuse and defeat.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/06/israel-derangement-syndrome.html


Sounds like Ahmadinejad. Nice.

[TonyR]

Sounds like Ahmadinejad. Nice.

Typical response. Anyone who criticized Israel is automatically anti-Semitic. Sad to go through life so misinformed, under informed, and/or stupid.

[DBruleU]

Typical response. Anyone who criticized Israel is automatically anti-Semitic. Sad to go through life so misinformed, under informed, and/or stupid.

That's just about the way it goes these days.

Krauthammer isn't the guy I would label being in the twilight zone. The guy knows his stuff on a multitude of subjects.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Typical response. Anyone who criticized Israel is automatically anti-Semitic. Sad to go through life so misinformed, under informed, and/or stupid.

Dude, you posted an article that sounds like it came from an Iranian State Media control officer.

Its you who are misinformed.

[DBruleU]

I just can't see how any logical thinking human would see Israel as the aggressors. They are constantly being attacked and provoked into violence, that when they do what any nation would do, defend themselves, the rest of the ME cries foul.

What a freakin' backwards world we live in now.

[gyldenlove]

I just can't see how any logical thinking human would see Israel as the aggressors. They are constantly being attacked and provoked into violence, that when they do what any nation would do, defend themselves, the rest of the ME cries foul.

What a freakin' backwards world we live in now.

Over the last 50 years: Israeli casualties vs Palestinian casualties? About 5 times as many Palestinian casualties. During the 2nd intifada alone 720 Israeli civilian casualties (killed by Palestinians), 2200 civilian palestinian casualties (killed by Israelis). That is 3 Palestinian civilians killed for every 1 Israeli.

Do you still think Israel is an innocent victim of endless crimes?

[DBruleU]

Over the last 50 years: Israeli casualties vs Palestinian casualties? About 5 times as many Palestinian casualties. During the 2nd intifada alone 720 Israeli civilian casualties (killed by Palestinians), 2200 civilian palestinian casualties (killed by Israelis). That is 3 Palestinian civilians killed for every 1 Israeli.

Do you still think Israel is an innocent victim of endless crimes?

No, you changed my mind actually.

[epicSocialism4tw]

"Israel has already twice intercepted ships laden (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A16637-2002Jan8?language=printer) with Iranian arms destined for Hezbollah and Gaza. What country would allow that?

But even more important, why did Israel even have to resort to blockade? Because, blockade is Israel's fallback as the world systematically de-legitimizes its traditional ways of defending itself -- forward and active defense.

(1) Forward defense: As a small, densely populated country surrounded by hostile states, Israel had, for its first half-century, adopted forward defense -- fighting wars on enemy territory (such as the Sinai and Golan Heights) rather than its own.
Where possible (Sinai, for example) Israel has traded territory for peace. But where peace offers were refused, Israel retained the territory as a protective buffer zone. Thus Israel retained a small strip of southern Lebanon to protect the villages of northern Israel. And it took many losses in Gaza, rather than expose Israeli border towns to Palestinian terror attacks. It is for the same reason America wages a grinding war in Afghanistan: You fight them there, so you don't have to fight them here.

But under overwhelming outside pressure, Israel gave it up. The Israelis were told the occupations were not just illegal but at the root of the anti-Israel insurgencies -- and therefore withdrawal, by removing the cause, would bring peace.

Land for peace. Remember? Well, during the past decade, Israel gave the land -- evacuating South Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005. What did it get? An intensification of belligerency, heavy militarization of the enemy side, multiple kidnappings, cross-border attacks and, from Gaza, years of unrelenting rocket attack.

(2) Active defense: Israel then had to switch to active defense -- military action to disrupt, dismantle and defeat (http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-the-President-on-a-New-Strategy-for-Afghanistan-and-Pakistan/) (to borrow President Obama's description of our campaign against the Taliban and al-Qaeda) the newly armed terrorist mini-states established in southern Lebanon and Gaza after Israel withdrew.

The result? The Lebanon war of 2006 and Gaza operation of 2008-09. They were met with yet another avalanche of opprobrium and calumny by the same international community that had demanded the land-for-peace Israeli withdrawals in the first place. Worse, the U.N. Goldstone report (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/14/AR2009111402279.html), which essentially criminalized Israel's defensive operation in Gaza while whitewashing the casus belli -- the preceding and unprovoked Hamas rocket war -- effectively de-legitimized any active Israeli defense against its self-declared terror enemies.

(3) Passive defense: Without forward or active defense, Israel is left with but the most passive and benign of all defenses -- a blockade to simply prevent enemy rearmament. Yet, as we speak, this too is headed for international de-legitimation. Even the United States is now moving toward having it abolished.
But, if none of these is permissible, what's left?

Ah, but that's the point. It's the point understood by the blockade-busting flotilla of useful idiots and terror sympathizers, by the Turkish front organization that funded it, by the automatic anti-Israel Third World chorus at the United Nations, and by the supine Europeans who've had quite enough of the Jewish problem.

What's left? Nothing. The whole point of this relentless international campaign is to deprive Israel of any legitimate form of self-defense. Why, just last week, the Obama administration joined the jackals, and reversed four decades of U.S. practice, by signing onto a consensus document (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/29/AR2010052902304.html) that singles out Israel's possession of nuclear weapons -- thus de-legitimizing Israel's very last line of defense: deterrence.

The world is tired of these troublesome Jews, 6 million -- that number again -- hard by the Mediterranean, refusing every invitation to national suicide. For which they are relentlessly demonized, ghettoized and constrained from defending themselves, even as the more committed anti-Zionists -- Iranian in particular -- openly prepare a more final solution."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060304287.html

[TonyR]

Do you still think Israel is an innocent victim of endless crimes?

It is interesting how so many people continue to cling to Israel as the "victim" without regards for the facts. Good post from Glenn Greenwald on the topic:

What this really underscores is that the mentality driving both Israel and the U.S. is quite similar, which is why those two countries find such common cause, even when the rest of the world recoils in revulsion. One of the more amazing developments in the flotilla aftermath is how a claim that initially appeared too self-evidently ludicrous to be invoked by anyone -- Israel was the victim here and was acting against the ship in self-defense --has actually become the central premise in Israeli and (especially) American discourse about the attack (and as always, there is far more criticism of Israeli actions in Israel than in the U.S.).

How could anyone with the slightest intellectual honesty claim that Israel and its Navy were the victims of a boat which Jon Stewart said last night looked like "P Diddy's St. Bart's vacation yacht"; or that armed Israeli commandos were the victims of unarmed civilian passengers; or, more generally, that a nuclear-armed Israel with the most powerful military by far in the Middle East and the world's greatest superpower acting as Protector is the persecuted victim of a wretched, deprived, imprisoned, stateless population devastated by 40 years of brutal Israeli occupation and, just a year ago, an unbelievably destructive invasion and bombing campaign? The casting of "victim" and "aggressor" is blatantly reversed with such claims -- which is exactly the central premise that has been driving, and continues to drive, U.S. foreign policy as well.

I recommend the whole post, particularly to those of you who are desperately in need of some perspective and diversity of opinion.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/06/03/israel/index.html

[gyldenlove]

"Israel has already twice intercepted ships laden (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A16637-2002Jan8?language=printer) with Iranian arms destined for Hezbollah and Gaza. What country would allow that?

But even more important, why did Israel even have to resort to blockade? Because, blockade is Israel's fallback as the world systematically de-legitimizes its traditional ways of defending itself -- forward and active defense.

(1) Forward defense: As a small, densely populated country surrounded by hostile states, Israel had, for its first half-century, adopted forward defense -- fighting wars on enemy territory (such as the Sinai and Golan Heights) rather than its own.
Where possible (Sinai, for example) Israel has traded territory for peace. But where peace offers were refused, Israel retained the territory as a protective buffer zone. Thus Israel retained a small strip of southern Lebanon to protect the villages of northern Israel. And it took many losses in Gaza, rather than expose Israeli border towns to Palestinian terror attacks. It is for the same reason America wages a grinding war in Afghanistan: You fight them there, so you don't have to fight them here.

But under overwhelming outside pressure, Israel gave it up. The Israelis were told the occupations were not just illegal but at the root of the anti-Israel insurgencies -- and therefore withdrawal, by removing the cause, would bring peace.

Land for peace. Remember? Well, during the past decade, Israel gave the land -- evacuating South Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005. What did it get? An intensification of belligerency, heavy militarization of the enemy side, multiple kidnappings, cross-border attacks and, from Gaza, years of unrelenting rocket attack.

(2) Active defense: Israel then had to switch to active defense -- military action to disrupt, dismantle and defeat (http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-by-the-President-on-a-New-Strategy-for-Afghanistan-and-Pakistan/) (to borrow President Obama's description of our campaign against the Taliban and al-Qaeda) the newly armed terrorist mini-states established in southern Lebanon and Gaza after Israel withdrew.

The result? The Lebanon war of 2006 and Gaza operation of 2008-09. They were met with yet another avalanche of opprobrium and calumny by the same international community that had demanded the land-for-peace Israeli withdrawals in the first place. Worse, the U.N. Goldstone report (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/14/AR2009111402279.html), which essentially criminalized Israel's defensive operation in Gaza while whitewashing the casus belli -- the preceding and unprovoked Hamas rocket war -- effectively de-legitimized any active Israeli defense against its self-declared terror enemies.

(3) Passive defense: Without forward or active defense, Israel is left with but the most passive and benign of all defenses -- a blockade to simply prevent enemy rearmament. Yet, as we speak, this too is headed for international de-legitimation. Even the United States is now moving toward having it abolished.
But, if none of these is permissible, what's left?

Ah, but that's the point. It's the point understood by the blockade-busting flotilla of useful idiots and terror sympathizers, by the Turkish front organization that funded it, by the automatic anti-Israel Third World chorus at the United Nations, and by the supine Europeans who've had quite enough of the Jewish problem.

What's left? Nothing. The whole point of this relentless international campaign is to deprive Israel of any legitimate form of self-defense. Why, just last week, the Obama administration joined the jackals, and reversed four decades of U.S. practice, by signing onto a consensus document (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/29/AR2010052902304.html) that singles out Israel's possession of nuclear weapons -- thus de-legitimizing Israel's very last line of defense: deterrence.

The world is tired of these troublesome Jews, 6 million -- that number again -- hard by the Mediterranean, refusing every invitation to national suicide. For which they are relentlessly demonized, ghettoized and constrained from defending themselves, even as the more committed anti-Zionists -- Iranian in particular -- openly prepare a more final solution."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060304287.html

1) Forward defense, or as it is also known offense. When you fight wars in other countries it is called offense, as of yet no method of attack has been devised under which you attack another country on your own territory.

Where possibly Israel has occupied territory such as the Golan heights, the West bank, Gaza and Sinai, most of which Israel has no territorial claim to at all.

That is akin to stealing someones car and giving it back to them so they won't report you to the police.

2) Active defense, which is what we call war. This strategy, I fully understand and support and I believe that most other countries in similar situations would react likewise.

3) Passive defense, this one is a pickle. Precedence and international law does make it clear that you can only blockade a sovereign nation and that announcing a naval blockade is equivalent to declaring war, if war has not already been declared.

Israel is not and have never been willing to accept a 2 state solution so Gaza is not a state and is not considered a state internationally, this means you can not legally blockade Gaza under current maritime law, unless you are willing to accept Gaza being treated as a seperate state, in which case the declaration of a blockade triggers an international armed conflict (war), under which the Geneva convention would apply, as well and this would allow other nations to declare either neutrality or alliance with one of the two sides.

Currently there is little doubt that the blockade itself is illegal under current maritime practices unless Israel is willing to grant Gaza full sovereignity in which case a state of war would exist.

If Israel rather than waging what is currently an illegal blockade instead deployed its navy inside its own territorial waters they would through merchantile restrictions and import regulations be able to achieve the same effect (keeping weapons out of Gaza) but without violating international law.

Israel is like any other nation entitled to self defense and as long as terrorist attacks from Palestinian areas are rampant also entitled to stop these attacks by use of force and preventing weapons, explosives and like materials from entering the Palestinian areas. However, if this defense is not handled in accordance with international law, as it hasn't been for long periods since the 6-day war, Israel do put themselves in a position where the international society as a whole can not support them strongly without invalidating all charters of civil rights etc.

The current situation in Asia Minor is clearly volatile and conductive of nothing but continued polarization. Unfortunately the current powers that be on both sides of the conflict have proven beyond any doubt that they are incapable of enacting short term or long term solutions and until both sides have undergone shift in leadership neither side will be able to break the stalemate. Meanwhile casualties will continues to pile up and act as a motivation for futher violence and divide between the parties.

[Fedaykin]

Israel war born of violence and injustice, and it will live that way and end that way.

[DBruleU]

Israel war born of violence and injustice, and it will live that way and end that way.

Israel will never be destroyed, sorry.

[sirhcyennek81]

Israel will never be destroyed, sorry.


Kinda odd how many people seem hopeful that happens. Like losing an ally who is a real ally is a good thing.

But anyways...

Jews are evil, new holocaust, poor arabs, blah blah.


:Broncos:

[sirhcyennek81]

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:Broncos:

[Fedaykin]

Israel will never be destroyed, sorry.

Un huh, sure. Dare I ask what you base this extraordinary claim on?

[DBruleU]

Un huh, sure. Dare I ask what you base this extraordinary claim on?

Why do you think they will be destroyed?

I know that's what you hope.

[Fedaykin]

Why do you think they will be destroyed?

All nations fall; it's that simple. The root and primary tool of the conflict in Israel is religion. It would take a huge shift in attitude on all sides for a peaceable resolution. When you've brainwashed your people into believing the other side are enemies of your sky faerie -- it's hard, as we've learned, to convince them to broker a peace.

This conflict has been going on for thousands of years, and shows no signs of stopping anytime soon. That chunk of useless desert has been conquered and reconquered dozens of times. It will happen again.

Now, answer my question. On what basis do you claim that Israel will "never fall"?


I know that's what you hope.

Putting words in my mouth again?. Are you allergic to integrity?

Pointing out the reality of the situation is far liking or wanting that reality.

[DenverBrit]

All nations fall; it's that simple.

Interesting comment. How do you define fall?

Historically, some nations have fallen, but certainly not all.

[DenverBrit]

The problem is that for a blockade to be legal it must be against a belligerent state in an international armed conflict. Gaza is not a state and Israel will be the last country to ever accept Gaza's status as a state. There is no doubt that there is armed conflict going on to some extend, but since Israel is treating the situation as an insurgency and not a war (for legal reasons, amongst others that means they do not have to observe the Geneva convention) it is pretty dicey if they can declare a blockade legally.

The only other case I can find of a non international armed conflict blockade is the union blockading the confederacy, but that blockade was by the international society deemed a declaration of war that afforded the confederacy belligerency status which allowed many European countries to declare neutrality and deal unobstructed with both parties (and they did).

I don't know of a loophole that would make the blockade legal without forcing Israel to accept Gaza's status as a sovereign state.

On the other hand since Gaza is not a state, Israel holds territorial rights to waters off the coast and could easily and legally search and detain all suspect ships heading for Gaza ports.

That wouldn't explain the Cuban blockade. The US was not at war with Cuba or the USSR.

Hamas is a terrorist organization elected by Palestinians to govern Gaza, and has declared war on Israel, backing up their declaration by firing hundreds of rockets at Israelis.
Many think that qualifies as a 'belligerent' state, but I'm sure some could argue otherwise. It won't matter for now, the blockade will stay until a political pollution has been reached........we shouldn't hold our breath

Until some moderates on both sides get elected, they will continue to fight and look for propaganda opportunities......and the blockade will continue.

[gyldenlove]

That wouldn't explain the Cuban blockade. The US was not at war with Cuba or the USSR.

Hamas is a terrorist organization elected by Palestinians to govern Gaza, and has declared war on Israel, backing up their declaration by firing hundreds of rockets at Israelis.
Many think that qualifies as a 'belligerent' state, but I'm sure some could argue otherwise. It won't matter for now, the blockade will stay until a political pollution has been reached........we shouldn't hold our breath

Until some moderates on both sides get elected, they will continue to fight and look for propaganda opportunities......and the blockade will continue.

The Cuban blockade was only a partial blockade and was announced to prevent soviet warheads from reaching Cuba, and if the US had enforced the blockade it would have been treated as a declaration of war that ultimately could have culminated in the cold war turning decidedly warmer. As futher proof that the Cuban blockade was a declaration of war is that many of the restrictions on trade with Cuba are actually regulated under the "Trading with the enemy act".

There is no doubt that Gaza is belligerent, but it is not a state. As long as Israel does not accept Gaza as a sovereign nation they can not declare a blockade or armed conflict against Gaza under international law.

A poor analogy would be a dog that kills a human. You couldn't pursue that dog on manslaughter charges, not because it didn't kill, but because it is not a human. Same with Gaza, they are definitely hostile and belligerent, but they are not a state, and will not be one for a long long time because it would reduce Israels ability to pursue terrorists in Gaza, it would allow the Palestinians to seize all Israeli propperty in Gaza including settlements and it would allow other Arab nations to ally themselves with Gaza including trading weapons and ammo with them and if Israel should declare an IAC to assist Gaza.

[Fedaykin]

Interesting comment. How do you define fall?

Historically, some nations have fallen, but certainly not all.

All nations in history have either been outright purged (Carthage), dissolved into separate nations (USSR/Rome), or evolved (willingly or unwillingly) into something significantly different (China, Japan, modern European nations).

And I suppose your definition of "nation" is important. I'm using it in the sense of a contiguous political/cultural entity.

[sirhcyennek81]

That wouldn't explain the Cuban blockade. The US was not at war with Cuba or the USSR.

Hamas is a terrorist organization elected by Palestinians to govern Gaza, and has declared war on Israel, backing up their declaration by firing hundreds of rockets at Israelis.
Many think that qualifies as a 'belligerent' state, but I'm sure some could argue otherwise. It won't matter for now, the blockade will stay until a political pollution has been reached........we shouldn't hold our breath

Until some moderates on both sides get elected, they will continue to fight and look for propaganda opportunities......and the blockade will continue.


The Cuban "blockade" was called a quarentine. It gave the US some legal standing to slow Soviet missile silo construction while they gathered evidence to present to the UN to force the USSR out of Cuba and come to a negotiated resolution.

The Gaza strip is "governed" by Hamas, who was elected to lead that portion of the Palestinian territories. Because Hamas is a terrorist org. that is currently in a state of war with Israel, the Israelis are not allowing banned items into the country, stopping any ships trying to make port there.

:Broncos:

[TonyR]

Good read on the importance of this incident, and the response to it, to the U.S.

If Obama genuinely believes in the urgent strategic imperative of rebuilding relations with the world's Muslim communities, he must quickly--and personally--address the ongoing blockade of Gaza and use the crisis as an opportunity to underscore the need for a peace process and the delivery of humanitarian aid to Palestinians. If he tries to ignore the issue or simply defend Israel's actions, then the first anniversary of the Cairo speech will also be its epitaph.

http://mideast.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/06/03/can_obamas_muslim_engagement_survive_gaza

Netanyahu is really making things difficult for both Israel and the U.S. He's like Dick Cheney but much, much worse.

[DenverBrit]

The Cuban blockade was only a partial blockade and was announced to prevent soviet warheads from reaching Cuba, and if the US had enforced the blockade it would have been treated as a declaration of war that ultimately could have culminated in the cold war turning decidedly warmer. As futher proof that the Cuban blockade was a declaration of war is that many of the restrictions on trade with Cuba are actually regulated under the "Trading with the enemy act".

There is no doubt that Gaza is belligerent, but it is not a state. As long as Israel does not accept Gaza as a sovereign nation they can not declare a blockade or armed conflict against Gaza under international law.

A poor analogy would be a dog that kills a human. You couldn't pursue that dog on manslaughter charges, not because it didn't kill, but because it is not a human. Same with Gaza, they are definitely hostile and belligerent, but they are not a state, and will not be one for a long long time because it would reduce Israels ability to pursue terrorists in Gaza, it would allow the Palestinians to seize all Israeli propperty in Gaza including settlements and it would allow other Arab nations to ally themselves with Gaza including trading weapons and ammo with them and if Israel should declare an IAC to assist Gaza.

I have to wonder if the "San Remo Manual" requires a blockade to be defined as a 'State' at war, or has some other acceptable definitions. I haven't looked closely enough for an answer.
But when 'legal experts' were asked by the BBC.....they seemed to allow 'Territories' for a valid blockade.

Under the law of a blockade, intercepting a vessel could apply globally so long as a ship is bound for a "belligerent" territory, legal experts say

Either way, Israel needs to tread carefully in its attempts to inspect any shipments bound for Gaza.

[gyldenlove]

I have to wonder if the "San Remo Manual" requires a blockade to be defined as a 'State' at war, or has some other acceptable definitions. I haven't looked closely enough for an answer.
But when 'legal experts' were asked by the BBC.....they seemed to allow 'Territories' for a valid blockade.



Either way, Israel needs to tread carefully in its attempts to inspect any shipments bound for Gaza.

I believe by territory in this context is meant land controlled by a beliggerent state, as a blockade traditionally is used in the context or an armed conflict to limit supplies to the enemy or to cut off a beach head. An example of such would be the Danish navy blockading Danish ports controlled by Prussia during the war or 1864, in this case clearly Denmark can not be belligerent to Denmark so it would be impossible to blockade ports under Danish territorial claim, however if those ports are controlled by the enemy they can be blockaded under enemy territory.

[mhgaffney]

That wouldn't explain the Cuban blockade. The US was not at war with Cuba or the USSR.

Hamas is a terrorist organization elected by Palestinians to govern Gaza, and has declared war on Israel, backing up their declaration by firing hundreds of rockets at Israelis.
Many think that qualifies as a 'belligerent' state, but I'm sure some could argue otherwise. It won't matter for now, the blockade will stay until a political pollution has been reached........we shouldn't hold our breath

Until some moderates on both sides get elected, they will continue to fight and look for propaganda opportunities......and the blockade will continue.

Hamas is a terrorist organization?

That is the standard propaganda - repeated ad infinitum on US TV. But is it the truth?

No -- IMO - it is not. Israel has targeted Hamas just as it targeted the PLO informer years. Why? Because Hamas is radical and militant.

Hamas came to power in a legal fair election. Israel promptly started murdering, bombing, and arresting the elected Hamas officials.

Israel also immediately stopped the disembursements to the civil servants in Gaza. Israel had been paying these salaries previously -- with taxes paid by the Palestinians. When Israel stole this money -- thousands of police in Gaza went without pay for months.

Israel also imposed a blockade on Gaza -- a form of collective punishment which is illegal under international law. Only international food aid has prevented mass starvation.

Israel and the US also sought to divide the Palestinians (divide and conquer) by inciting the PLO to stage a coup in Gaza. The result was a short period of intense fighting -- Palestinians fighting one another. But Hamas won because it had broad popular support.

This spectacle was reminiscent of how the US encouraged Saddam Hussein to attack Iran back in I think it was around 1981 -- an attempt to destabilize Iran after the 1979 Khomeini revolution ousted the Shah (a US puppet).

It's the same old pattern. When are you guys going to get smart -- and see that they make the same moves over and over again?

Here's what you need to know.

As long as Israel refuses to declare its final borders -- I agree with Hamas -- it is appropriate to refuse to recognize Israel. Israel's present open-ended borders are unacceptable.

Let Israel announce that it accepts the 1967 border -- "with insubstantial alterations" - consistent with UN Security Council Resolutions -- and then I will join in demanding that Hamas recognize Israel.

Until then, Hamas is correct to refuse.

[sirhcyennek81]

Hamas is a terrorist organization?

No -- IMO - it is not. Israel has targeted Hamas just as it targeted the PLO informer years. Why? Because Hamas is radical and militant.


...They have murdered Israeli citizens using funding and weapons from Iran. They have also destroyed Lebanon to make war on Israel. You cannot possibly be so ****ed in the head that this simple fact escapes you.

Jesus Christ man educate yourself.

:Broncos:

[Meck77]

Can someone explain to me why I, as an American, should care about what goes on with border disputes and who kills who over there?

Our own country and borders are not properly protected yet BILLIONS of our tax dollars are shipped over to Israel every year and for what?

Am I alone in that I think those BILLIONS should be spent along the Cali, AZ, New Mexico and Texas border instead of Israels?

[DenverBrit]

All nations in history have either been outright purged (Carthage), dissolved into separate nations (USSR/Rome), or evolved (willingly or unwillingly) into something significantly different (China, Japan, modern European nations).

And I suppose your definition of "nation" is important. I'm using it in the sense of a contiguous political/cultural entity.

I would define France, Japan, England, Spain etc. as 'nations', for example.
Born out of various tribes/provinces/counties etc. until they became unified political entities. None were formally 'failed nations' in the modern sense.
Since becoming nations, they have remained so.
Almost the opposite of 'all nations fail.'....unless one is describing tribes/provinces, etc. as nations, then one could argue that they 'failed' in some countries.
I like to think of them more as 'coming to their senses.' ;D

[Fedaykin]

I would define France, Japan, England, Spain etc. as 'nations', for example.
Born out of various tribes/provinces/counties etc. until they became unified political entities. None were formally 'failed nations' in the modern sense.
Since becoming nations, they have remained so.
Almost the opposite of 'all nations fail.'....unless one is describing tribes/provinces, etc. as nations, then one could argue that they 'failed' in some countries.
I like to think of them more as 'coming to their senses.' ;D

I would say that pre-revolution France is a different nation than post revolution. The French people determined that their government was a failure, so they tore it down and replaced it with a new one.

Similarly Imperial Japan was conquered by the U.S. in 1945, and in it's place a new nation (also referred to commonly as Japan) was constructed.

That's just my view and what I meant by "all nations fail".

[The Lone Bolt]

Let Israel announce that it accepts the 1967 border -- "with insubstantial alterations" - consistent with UN Security Council Resolutions -- and then I will join in demanding that Hamas recognize Israel.

Will you then demand that Israel comply with the "right of return" that the arab states are insisting on?

[DenverBrit]

Hamas is a terrorist organization?

That is the standard propaganda - repeated ad infinitum on US TV. But is it the truth?

No -- IMO - it is not. Israel has targeted Hamas just as it targeted the PLO informer years. Why? Because Hamas is radical and militant.

Hamas came to power in a legal fair election. Israel promptly started murdering, bombing, and arresting the elected Hamas officials.

Israel also immediately stopped the disembursements to the civil servants in Gaza. Israel had been paying these salaries previously -- with taxes paid by the Palestinians. When Israel stole this money -- thousands of police in Gaza went without pay for months.

Israel also imposed a blockade on Gaza -- a form of collective punishment which is illegal under international law. Only international food aid has prevented mass starvation.

Israel and the US also sought to divide the Palestinians (divide and conquer) by inciting the PLO to stage a coup in Gaza. The result was a short period of intense fighting -- Palestinians fighting one another. But Hamas won because it had broad popular support.

This spectacle was reminiscent of how the US encouraged Saddam Hussein to attack Iran back in I think it was around 1981 -- an attempt to destabilize Iran after the 1979 Khomeini revolution ousted the Shah (a US puppet).

It's the same old pattern. When are you guys going to get smart -- and see that they make the same moves over and over again?

Here's what you need to know.

As long as Israel refuses to declare its final borders -- I agree with Hamas -- it is appropriate to refuse to recognize Israel. Israel's present open-ended borders are unacceptable.

Let Israel announce that it accepts the 1967 border -- "with insubstantial alterations" - consistent with UN Security Council Resolutions -- and then I will join in demanding that Hamas recognize Israel.

Until then, Hamas is correct to refuse.

You don't own a TV, so what are you talking about?

Anytime you disagree, you resort to the same tactic. Your agenda is showing again. You should be embarrassed about showing your ass on such a regular basis.

Hamas....walks like a duck......

The group has also operated a terrorist wing, carrying out suicide bombings and attacks using mortars and short-range rockets. Hamas has launched attacks both in the Palestinian territories of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and inside the pre-1967 boundaries of Israel. In Arabic, the word "hamas" means zeal. But it's also an Arabic acronym for "Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya," or Islamic Resistance Movemen
http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/

The Hamas charter (or covenant), issued in 1988, calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[47] and the obliteration or nullification of Israel.

[DenverBrit]

I would say that pre-revolution France is a different nation than post revolution. The French people determined that their government was a failure, so they tore it down and replaced it with a new one.

Similarly Imperial Japan was conquered by the U.S. in 1945, and in it's place a new nation (also referred to commonly as Japan) was constructed.

That's just my view and what I meant by "all nations fail".

Ok.....just a typo then. Your original comment:

All nations fall; it's that simple.

I ended up using 'fail' probably subconsciously understanding the typo. ;D

[watermock]

Gaza is absolutely no threat to Israel.

It's almost comical.

Hamas won, and was promptly embargoed, after IDF forces ransacked the region.

Shiat, Gaza is the size of Moab, Utah. Not Utah, Moab.

(insert funny story about ex stealing a liter of that chocolate vodka.

[mhgaffney]

Hamas may have grand designs -- but Mock is correct. Hamas is too weak militarily to threaten Israel.

Hamas has offered Israel a truce -- which can develop into an indefinite cease fire.

A truce can develop into a long tern political settlement.

Unfortunately, Israel does not want a settlement. It wants to deport ALL the Palestinians and keep ALL the land.

[W*GS]

Unfortunately, too many Arabs do not want a settlement. They want to kill ALL the Jews and keep ALL the land.

Fixed it for ya.

[DenverBrit]

Hamas may have grand designs -- but Mock is correct. Hamas is too weak militarily to threaten Israel.

Hamas has offered Israel a truce -- which can develop into an indefinite cease fire.

A truce can develop into a long tern political settlement.

Unfortunately, Israel does not want a settlement. It wants to deport ALL the Palestinians and keep ALL the land.

What a brains trust you two are. Have either of you seen the human destruction caused by terrorism? I have, and if you had, you'd probably be singing a different tune.

But don't let the facts spoil your love-fest.

This is a list of 2008 rocket and mortar attacks on Israel, by Hamas and Palestinian militants from the Gaza Strip. This was part of a rapid escalation of attacks by Hamas on Israel. Until the ceasefire in June 19 2008 2378 rockets and mortars were launched. This is more than the 1,639 attacks launched in all of 2007, the rate of fire per month had increased more than 240%. A six-month 2008 Israel–Hamas ceasefire was agreed to by both sides and began on June 19, 2008.[1] Sporadic attacks continued during the cease-fire at a vastly diminished rate; a total of 20 rockets and 18 mortars were launched from the signing of the ceasefire until the beginning of November. This represented a 98% reduction in rocket fire four and a half month period prior to the signing of the ceasefire during which over 1,800 rockets were fired from Gaza.[2][3][4] On November 4, the Israeli military attacked a cross-border tunnel on the Gaza side, killing two Hamas gunman. The resulted in rocket and mortar attacks and subsequent Israel Air Force strikes on launching sites and killed an additional four Hamas gunmen. Israeli officials allege Hamas was constructing a tunnel to be used to abduct Israeli soldiers.[5] Following this event the number of rockets fired from Gaza escalated, 125 being launched in the month of November. This page lists rocket attacks on Israel by Palestinian militants. According to the Israeli military's count on December 27, 3,000 rockets hit Israel since the beginning of the year.

A total of eight people were killed by Qassam rocket, Grad rocket and mortar attacks on Israel in 2008. Four of these deaths occurred between 27-29 December[6][7].

Yeah, Hamas is harmless and no threat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2008

[Sam.I.Am]

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/9757/000rk2738763243.jpg

[El Minion]

http://danzigercartoons.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/dancart4103.jpg

[epicSocialism4tw]

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/9757/000rk2738763243.jpg

Yep...that about sums it up.

[mhgaffney]

Blame the victim. We've seen it on this board since forever.

[W*GS]

gaff-o always blames the Jews. He's done that since day one here.

We've all seen it.

[DBruleU]

Blame the victim. We've seen it on this board since forever.

Ever since you've been here, ya.

[The Lone Bolt]

Blame the victim. We've seen it on this board since forever.

Actually Gaff, there are plenty of victims on both sides. Israel has made some regrettable decisions, but you can't possibly believe that Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hizbollah, etc have no innocent blood on their hands.

[sirhcyennek81]

Blame the victim. We've seen it on this board since forever.


Yeah...thank God the theocracies and totalitarian thugs that rule the middle east are telling their people they alone are responsible for their own misery...the West has nothing to do with it...oh wait...


:Broncos:

[Fedaykin]

Yeah...thank God the theocracies and totalitarian thugs that rule the middle east are telling their people they alone are responsible for their own misery...the West has nothing to do with it...oh wait...


:Broncos:

Saddam Hussein, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi and other theocrats and totalitarians installed and supported by the west (in the case of Reza, in place of a democratically elected government) are testament to the naivety of the above.

[Fedaykin]

Saddam Hussein, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi and other theocrats and totalitarians installed and supported by the west (in the case of Reza, in place of a democratically elected government) are testament to the naivety of the above.

Actually now that I think about it, it's all BPs fault (yes, the same BP) The Shah was supported and installed because the Iranians wanted to take over the company's operations in Iran.

*shakes fist* Damn you BP!

[sirhcyennek81]

Saddam Hussein, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi and other theocrats and totalitarians installed and supported by the west (in the case of Reza, in place of a democratically elected government) are testament to the naivety of the above.


Yes. Cold war politics...

Does not change the fact that when the "arab street" gets upset their leaders automatically blame the West and Israel for any and all problems, regardless of how much aid they receieve from the IMF or the West.

:Broncos:

[TonyR]

Came across this today, thought I'd add to the discussion:

Ken O’Keefe, former US Marine, Gulf War veteran, and now survivor of the Mavi Marmara massacre, has issued a remarkable and searing statement from Istanbul.

“While in Israeli custody I, along with everyone else, was subjected to endless abuse and flagrant acts of disrespect. Women and elderly were physically and mentally assaulted. Access to food and water and toilets was denied. Dogs were used against us, we ourselves were treated like dogs. We were exposed to direct sun in stress positions while hand cuffed to the point of losing circulation of blood in our hands. We were lied to incessantly, in fact I am awed at the routineness and comfort in their ability to lie, it is remarkable really. We were abused in just about every way imaginable and I myself was beaten and choked to the point of blacking out… and I was beaten again while in my cell.

In all this what I saw more than anything else were cowards… and yet I also see my brothers. Because no matter how vile and wrong the Israeli agents and government are, they are still my brothers and sisters and for now I only have pity for them. Because they are relinquishing the most precious thing a human being has, their humanity.“

http://pulsemedia.org/2010/06/06/ken-okeefe-we-the-defenders-of-the-mavi-marmara/

[epicSocialism4tw]

Came across this today, thought I'd add to the discussion:

Ken O’Keefe, former US Marine, Gulf War veteran, and now survivor of the Mavi Marmara massacre, has issued a remarkable and searing statement from Istanbul.

“While in Israeli custody I, along with everyone else, was subjected to endless abuse and flagrant acts of disrespect. Women and elderly were physically and mentally assaulted. Access to food and water and toilets was denied. Dogs were used against us, we ourselves were treated like dogs. We were exposed to direct sun in stress positions while hand cuffed to the point of losing circulation of blood in our hands. We were lied to incessantly, in fact I am awed at the routineness and comfort in their ability to lie, it is remarkable really. We were abused in just about every way imaginable and I myself was beaten and choked to the point of blacking out… and I was beaten again while in my cell.

In all this what I saw more than anything else were cowards… and yet I also see my brothers. Because no matter how vile and wrong the Israeli agents and government are, they are still my brothers and sisters and for now I only have pity for them. Because they are relinquishing the most precious thing a human being has, their humanity.“

http://pulsemedia.org/2010/06/06/ken-okeefe-we-the-defenders-of-the-mavi-marmara/

Um...Ken. Let me clear some things up for you. You were on a boat full of terrorist sympathizers that flagrantly violated the Egypt/Israeli blockade. When the Israeli army was forced to board your ship through your actions (at best irresponsible, at worst actions of war), and they were assaulted by your shipmates, YOUR PEOPLE FORCED THEIR HAND.

Quit complaining about not getting to go to the bathroom for awhile.

[DenverBrit]

http://cagle.msnbc.msn.com/news/GazaShipAttacks/images/bish.jpg

http://cagle.msnbc.msn.com/news/GazaShipAttacks/images/olle.jpg

http://cagle.msnbc.msn.com/news/GazaShipAttacks/images/bish3.jpg

http://cagle.msnbc.msn.com/news/GazaShipAttacks/images/olle5.jpg

[TonyR]

...it shows how out of touch the Israeli government’s American defenders are with, well, America. There’s an irony here. The Netanyahu government is filled with Americans. The prime minister himself attended high school in the Philadelphia suburbs. Ron Dermer, one of his closest advisors, was born in Miami Beach. His ambassador to the United States, Michael Oren, hails from New Jersey. In addition, prominent Americans like Abrams regularly appear in the U.S. media to echo the Netanyahu line. But paradoxically, this familiarity breeds overconfidence and ignorance. When Netanyahu travels to Washington, he speaks before Jewish audiences that mostly dislike Barack Obama’s Israel policy, even though according to a recent American Jewish Committee survey, American Jews overall support it by a margin of close to two to one. When he’s not speaking to right-wing Jews, he’s speaking to right-wing Christians. And when he’s not speaking to right-wing Christians, he’s speaking to former Bush administration officials who expect to soon be back in their old jobs. As an Obama official once told me about the Netanyahu team, with amazement, “these guys are actually waiting for President Palin.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-07/israels-gaza-blockade-crisis-shows-its-out-of-touch-with-america/

[DenverBrit]

...it shows how out of touch the Israeli government’s American defenders are with, well, America. There’s an irony here. The Netanyahu government is filled with Americans. The prime minister himself attended high school in the Philadelphia suburbs. Ron Dermer, one of his closest advisors, was born in Miami Beach. His ambassador to the United States, Michael Oren, hails from New Jersey. In addition, prominent Americans like Abrams regularly appear in the U.S. media to echo the Netanyahu line. But paradoxically, this familiarity breeds overconfidence and ignorance. When Netanyahu travels to Washington, he speaks before Jewish audiences that mostly dislike Barack Obama’s Israel policy, even though according to a recent American Jewish Committee survey, American Jews overall support it by a margin of close to two to one. When he’s not speaking to right-wing Jews, he’s speaking to right-wing Christians. And when he’s not speaking to right-wing Christians, he’s speaking to former Bush administration officials who expect to soon be back in their old jobs. As an Obama official once told me about the Netanyahu team, with amazement, “these guys are actually waiting for President Palin.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-06-07/israels-gaza-blockade-crisis-shows-its-out-of-touch-with-america/


LOL
Neither can the idiots who actually think she is Presidential material.

[mhgaffney]

Thank you Tony. The article by Ken O'Keefe needs to go up in its entirety. he writes from Istanbul.

The resident clowns presume to know Gandhi -- but without understanding him.

Check this out. The Turks led the opposition to the US attack on Iraq- - and even are now on the forefront of peace.

A few hundred activists may yet stave off WW III.

MHG

June 7, 2010

http://www.counterpunch.org/

Reflections by a Former US Marine on the Mavi Marmara

On Cowardice and Violence

By KEN O'KEEFE

Istanbul

In 2002 I initiated the TJP Human Shield Action to Iraq because I knew that the invasion of Iraq had been planned well in advance, that it was part of a ‘Global Spectrum Dominance’ agenda as laid out by the Project For A New American Century. I knew that protests had no chance of stopping the invasion, and that largely these protests were just a way of making us feel better about the coming mass murder; by being able to say “I protested against it.” With that understanding I argued that the only viable way to stop the invasion was to conduct a mass migration to Iraq. A migration in which people from around the world, especially western citizens, would position themselves at sites in Iraq that are supposed to be protected by international law, but which are routinely bombed when it is only Iraqi, Palestinian, generally non-white, western lives who will be killed. I felt 10,000 such people could stop the invasion, or at the very least, expose the invasion for what it was from the start, an act of international aggression, a war crime and a crime against humanity.

I have for many years understood that we, people of conscience, are the true holders of power in this world. Frustratingly however we have largely relinquished that power and failed to reach our full potential. Our potential to create a better world, a just world. Nonetheless I have conspired with others of like mind to reveal and exercise our true power.

When our two double decker busses travelled from London to Baghdad through Turkey, it was ever clear that the people of Turkey also could sense the power of this act, and they were the biggest participants in it. In the end we did not get the numbers required to stop the war, with at least one million Iraqi’s dead as a result, but I remain convinced that it was within our power to prevent the invasion. A massive opportunity lost as far as I am concerned.

In 2007 I joined the Free Gaza Movement with its plan to challenge the blockade of Gaza by travelling to Gaza by sea. From the moment I heard of the plan I knew it could succeed and ultimately I served as a captain on the first attempt. The Israeli government said throughout our preparation that we were no better than pirates and they would treat us as such. They made clear we would not reach Gaza. And still I knew we could succeed. And we did. Two boats with 46 passengers from various countries managed to sail into Gaza on August 23, 2007; this was the first time this had been done in 41 years.

The truth is the blockade of Gaza is far more than three years old, and yet we, a small group of conscientious people defied the Israeli machine and celebrated with tens of thousands of Gazans when we arrived that day. We proved that it could be done. We proved that an intelligent plan, with skilled manipulation of the media, could render the full might of the Israeli Navy useless. And I knew then that this was only the tip of the iceberg.

So participating in the Freedom Flotilla is like a family reunion to me. It is my long lost family whose conscience is their guide, who have shed the fear, who act with humanity. But I was especially proud to join IHH and the Turkish elements of the flotilla. I deeply admire the strength and character of the Turkish people, despite your history having stains of injustice, like every nation, you are today from citizen to Prime Minister among the leaders in the cause of humanity and justice.

I remember being asked during the TJP Human Shield Action to Iraq if I was a pacifist, I responded with a quote from Gandhi by saying I am not a passive anything. To the contrary I believe in action, and I also believe in self-defence, 100 per cent, without reservation. I would be incapable of standing by while a tyrant murders my family, and the attack on the Mavi Marmara was like an attack on my Palestinian family. I am proud to have stood shoulder to shoulder with those who refused to let a rogue Israeli military exert their will without a fight.

And yes, we fought.

When I was asked, in the event of an Israeli attack on the Mavi Marmara, would I use the camera, or would I defend the ship? I enthusiastically committed to defence of the ship. Although I am also a huge supporter of non-violence, in fact I believe non-violence must always be the first option. Nonetheless I joined the defence of the Mavi Mamara understanding that violence could be used against us and that we may very well be compelled to use violence in self defence.

I said this straight to Israeli agents, probably of Mossad or Shin Bet, and I say it again now, on the morning of the attack I was directly involved in the disarming of two Israeli Commandos. This was a forcible, non-negotiable, separation of weapons from commandos who had already murdered two brothers that I had seen that day. One brother with a bullet entering dead center in his forehead, in what appeared to be an execution.

I knew the commandos were murdering when I removed a 9mm pistol from one of them. I had that gun in my hands and as an ex-US Marine with training in the use of guns it was completely within my power to use that gun on the commando who may have been the murderer of one of my brothers. But that is not what I, nor any other defender of the ship did. I took that weapon away, removed the bullets, proper lead bullets, separated them from the weapon and hid the gun. I did this in the hopes that we would repel the attack and submit this weapon as evidence in a criminal trial against Israeli authorities for mass murder. I also helped to physically separate one commando from his assault rifle, which another brother apparently threw into the sea.

I and hundreds of others know the truth that makes a mockery of the brave and moral Israeli military. We had in our full possession, three completely disarmed and helpless commandos. These boys were at our mercy, they were out of reach of their fellow murderers, inside the ship and surrounded by 100 or more men. I looked into the eyes of all three of these boys and I can tell you they had the fear of God in them. They looked at us as if we were them, and I have no doubt they did not believe there was any way they would survive that day. They looked like frightened children in the face of an abusive father.

But they did not face an enemy as ruthless as they. Instead the woman provided basic first aid, and ultimately they were released, battered and bruised for sure, but alive. Able to live another day. Able to feel the sun over head and the embrace of loved ones. Unlike those they murdered. Despite mourning the loss of our brothers, feeling rage towards these boys, we let them go.

The Israeli prostitutes of propaganda can spew all of their disgusting bile all they wish, the commandos are the murderers, we are the defenders, and yet we fought. We fought not just for our lives, not just for our cargo, not just for the people of Palestine, we fought in the name of justice and humanity. We were right to do so, in every way.

While in Israeli custody I, along with everyone else was subjected to endless abuse and flagrant acts of disrespect. Women and elderly were physically and mentally assaulted. Access to food and water and toilets was denied. Dogs were used against us, we ourselves were treated like dogs. We were exposed to direct sun in stress positions while hand cuffed to the point of losing circulation of blood in our hands. We were lied to incessantly, in fact I am awed at the routineness and comfort in their ability to lie, it is remarkable really. We were abused in just about every way imaginable and I myself was beaten and choked to the point of blacking out… and I was beaten again while in my cell. In all this what I saw more than anything else were cowards… and yet I also see my brothers. Because no matter how vile and wrong the Israeli agents and government are, they are still my brothers and sisters and for now I only have pity for them. Because they are relinquishing the most precious thing a human being has, their humanity.

In conclusion; I would like to challenge every endorser of Gandhi, every person who thinks they understand him, who acknowledges him as one of the great souls of our time (which is just about every western leader), I challenge you in the form of a question.

Please explain how we, the defenders of the Mavi Mamara, are not the modern example of Gandhi’s essence? But first read the words of Gandhi himself. I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence.... I would rather have India resort to arms in order to defend her honour than that she should, in a cowardly manner, become or remain a helpless witness to her own dishonour. – Gandhi And lastly I have one more challenge. I challenge any critic of merit, publicly, to debate me on a large stage over our actions that day. I would especially love to debate with any Israeli leader who accuses us of wrongdoing, it would be my tremendous pleasure to face off with you. All I saw in Israel was cowards with guns, so I am ripe to see you in a new context. I want to debate with you on the largest stage possible. Take that as an open challenge and let us see just how brave Israeli leaders are.

Ken O'Keefe is a former US Marine and Gulf War veteran.

[mhgaffney]

When I was in Berkeley the other day I heard a report from another activist who was on the flotilla. He saw his friend die before his eyes -- shot from above -- the bullet went through the top of his head -- before the Israeli commandos descended on the ship.

This wrinkle changes everything -- but it won't be heard by the Israeli 5th column who spew the lies and hatred. They will no doubt just turn up the volume.

[epicSocialism4tw]

When I was in Berkeley the other day I heard a report from another activist who was on the flotilla. He saw his friend die before his eyes -- shot from above -- the bullet went through the top of his head -- before the Israeli commandos descended on the ship.

This wrinkle changes everything -- but it won't be heard by the Israeli 5th column who spew the lies and hatred. They will no doubt just turn up the volume.

Whatever, man.

There's no reason to believe anything that you or they say.

[W*GS]

A few hundred activists may yet stave off WW III.

It's pessimistic paranoids with Messiah complexes like you who will do whatever they can to make life for everyone else miserable.

You and Kim Jong-Il have a lot in common. Ponder that, ****head.