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TDmvp
05-19-2010, 01:11 PM
What started out as a cartoonist's call to action against censorship -- an open invitation to submit caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad -- has led to death threats, a court order to temporarily block parts of the website in Pakistan and a call for a boycott of Facebook to protest what Muslims believe is blasphemy.

"Everybody Draw Mohammed Day!" began last month as the brainchild of a Seattle-based cartoonist named Molly Norris, who was appalled by Comedy Central's decision to censor an episode of "South Park" that depicted Muhammad in a bear costume.

As a way to protest the network's decision -- which came after an Islamic extremist website warned of retaliation against the show's creators, Matt Stone and Trey Parker -- Norris created a poster with likenesses of Muhammad as a domino, a teacup and a box of pasta.

She declared May 20 "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day!" -- and her efforts quickly went viral, spawning several Facebook pages with thousands of followers dedicated to the event.

They also prompted a "protest" movement by thousands of other Facebook users opposed to it.


cont. at link
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/05/19/facebook-fracas-breaks-everybody-draw-mohammad-day/

Dagmar
05-19-2010, 01:15 PM
http://ken-jennings.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/southpark.gif

This episode aired very recently. It was a repeat. ZERO complaints.

Dagmar
05-19-2010, 01:24 PM
My effort

http://i47.tinypic.com/73h20m.jpg

:)

Kaylore
05-19-2010, 01:29 PM
My effort

http://i47.tinypic.com/73h20m.jpg

:)

Lol

The Joker
05-19-2010, 01:35 PM
Warning:

Some people may find the following image offensive...









http://zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/book_illos/Prophet_muhammad.jpg

HAT
05-19-2010, 01:48 PM
My effort

http://i47.tinypic.com/73h20m.jpg

:)

You just outed yourself as DemonEagles ghost. LOL

Kaylore
05-19-2010, 01:49 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but is it that people draw him poorly/inappropriately or that they draw him at all that has the Muslim community upset?

Kaylore
05-19-2010, 01:52 PM
FYI apparently she never suggested this and is disavowing it.

http://www.mollynorris.com/

I did NOT 'declare' May 20 to be "Everybody Draw Mohammed Day." I made a cartoon about the television show South Park being censored. I wish that was what our energies were going toward -- protesting revolutionmuslim.com's threat to Comedy Central, and Comedy Central's over reaction to it which set America on a slippery slope toward censorship!

At any rate...my cartoon-poster, with a fake 'group' behind it (Citizens Against Citizens Against Humor -- sigh, I WISH that were a real group as I love the name of it!) went viral and was taken seriously.

I never started a facebook page (I see that the two men who started the different fb pages names have now been made public).

My one-off cartoon does not work well as a long-term plan. The vitriol this 'day' has brought out, of people who only want to draw obscene images, is offensive to Muslims who did nothing to endanger our right to expression in the first place. Only Viacom and Revolution Muslim are to blame, so...draw them instead!

I apologize to people of Muslim faith and ask that this 'day' be called off.

Thank you to those who are turning this crazy thing into an opportunity for dialogue.

(Oh, and screw all of you who are mad at me for not leading a 'movement'. My cartoon was the beginning and end of what I had to say about this particular episode of a totally creepy, historic censorship.)

Sincerely,
Molly

P.S. The nicest email I have received have been from Muslims.

(I regret going on the Dave Ross radio show on April 25th, before my cartoon went viral; my ego took me there. It was a mistake to go there when I wasn't clear about things. I let myself get side-swiped. Crap!)

Houshyamama
05-19-2010, 01:53 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but is it that people draw him poorly/inappropriately or that they draw him at all that has the Muslim community upset?

I think it's the latter. I believe they see the drawing as an 'idol' and that's a no-no in Arab land.

TDmvp
05-19-2010, 01:58 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but is it that people draw him poorly/inappropriately or that they draw him at all that has the Muslim community upset?

draw him at all ... No idea why.


http://electronicmuseum.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/nophotos.jpg



He's the Randy Johnson of god's tho.

http://espn.starwave.com/media/mlb/2005/0111/photo/a_johnson_ft.jpg

DomCasual
05-19-2010, 02:36 PM
My effort

http://i47.tinypic.com/73h20m.jpg

:)

So, YOU'RE demonpenz! :yep:

DomCasual
05-19-2010, 02:37 PM
You just outed yourself as DemonEagles ghost. LOL

Where did I get demonpenz? My brain is getting feeble.

Ugly Duck
05-19-2010, 02:48 PM
There's a zillion Islamic pictorial depictions of Mohamed dating from way back when.... don't that mean that they have to kill themselves?

Mohamed preaching his final sermon:

http://zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/0_01.jpg

Mohamed on Buraq:

http://zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/Jami_al-Tawarikh_Miraj_2.jpg

Etc., etc....

http://zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/

epicSocialism4tw
05-19-2010, 02:52 PM
The whole "draw Mohammed to make Muslims mad" movement is childish.

However, the whole "kill infidels who draw Mohammed" movement is even worse.

This is what midieval politics gets you.

Sometimes its really annoying to be so involved with other cultures.

Archer81
05-19-2010, 02:52 PM
Im sure somebody will apologize for potentially offending muslims over a superficial and retarded topic.

:Broncos:

elsid13
05-19-2010, 02:57 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but is it that people draw him poorly/inappropriately or that they draw him at all that has the Muslim community upset?

It the latter and is tied to wishing of idols passage in the Korean.

Ugly Duck
05-19-2010, 02:59 PM
Mohamed watching women hang by their hair & burn for eternity for showing their hair in public:

http://zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/burning.jpg

Mohamed watching women hang by their tongues & burn for leaving their house without permission from a male:

http://zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/tongues.jpg

DomCasual
05-19-2010, 02:59 PM
It the latter and is tied to wishing of idols passage in the Korean.

I thought Koreans were mostly Buddhists?

I kid.

Smiling Assassin27
05-19-2010, 03:03 PM
A truly tasteless, tactless, disrespectful idea. This is not a statement against censorship, it's a juvenile, inflammatory, whore-out for attention. It violates the virtue of Charity in just about every way.

By the same token, Muslims ought not try to force others to practice their religion and government ought not allow them to.

elsid13
05-19-2010, 03:04 PM
I thought Koreans were mostly Buddhists?

I kid.

I'm trying to help Spider out.

epicSocialism4tw
05-19-2010, 03:15 PM
A truly tasteless, tactless, disrespectful idea. This is not a statement against censorship, it's a juvenile, inflammatory, whore-out for attention. It violates the virtue of Charity in just about every way.

By the same token, Muslims ought not try to force others to practice their religion and government ought not allow them to.

There's not a worse way for us to practice our free speech laws.

UberBroncoMan
05-19-2010, 03:31 PM
FYI apparently she never suggested this and is disavowing it.

http://www.mollynorris.com/

She's backtracking. "Nicest emails have been from Muslims"

Awww.... I wuv them. They wuv me! Call it off! I never meant it. Censor my words!

B**** is scared ****less that her head will be on a platter... and after what happened to Theo Van Gogh I guess it makes sense.

Archer81
05-19-2010, 03:33 PM
She's backtracking. "Nicest emails have been from Muslims"

Awww.... I wuv them. They wuv me! Call it off! I never meant it. Censor my words!

B**** is scared ****less that her head will be on a platter... and after what happened to Theo Van Gogh I guess it makes sense.


Islam means peace. The bloody corpses they leave behind prove it.


:Broncos:

UberBroncoMan
05-19-2010, 03:35 PM
Islam means peace. The bloody corpses they leave behind prove it.


:Broncos:

This is true. Also, the bodies of the infidels feed animals with the leftovers being absorbed into the ground to enrich the soil with protein for the plants.

UberBroncoMan
05-19-2010, 03:40 PM
A Muslim responding.

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/N6sd-vdUoGs&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/N6sd-vdUoGs&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

ROFL.

He's made an "Honor the Prophet Muhammad" page to counter the drawing one.

****ing Muslims and their high horse. They don't deserve any favoritism or freedom from being made fun of.

Maybe that's why we're infidels? We act the part don't we? All faiths except Islam are ok to make fun of. Guess we're saying Islam is better.

Archer81
05-19-2010, 03:43 PM
A Muslim responding.

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/N6sd-vdUoGs&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/N6sd-vdUoGs&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

ROFL.

He's made an "Honor the Prophet Muhammad" page to counter the drawing one.

****ing Muslims and their high horse. They don't deserve any favoritism or freedom from being made fun of.

Maybe that's why we're infidels? We act the part don't we? All faiths except Islam are ok to make fun of. Guess we're saying Islam is better.


They honor Jesus. Except the He died and rose again bit...or Him being the Son of God...

But beyond that, they like him. We have so much in common.

:Broncos:

chazoe60
05-19-2010, 03:43 PM
Mohamed watching women hang by their hair & burn for eternity for showing their hair in public:

http://zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/burning.jpg

Mohamed watching women hang by their tongues & burn for leaving their house without permission from a male:

http://zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/islamic_mo_full/tongues.jpg

What a beautiful culture. So peaceful and forgiving, it just warms the heart.

UberBroncoMan
05-19-2010, 03:46 PM
This just in. Pakistan has banned Facebook.

Lulz.

I can't imagine how I could live in a religion dominated country. Either the Middle East for centuries or Dark Age Christan Europe. Would be ****ing unbearable.

chazoe60
05-19-2010, 03:57 PM
This just in. Pakistan has banned Facebook.

Lulz.

I can't imagine how I could live in a religion dominated country. Either the Middle East for centuries or Dark Age Christan Europe. Would be ****ing unbearable.

I take it you're not from Utah?:rofl:

Archer81
05-19-2010, 04:01 PM
I take it you're not from Utah?:rofl:


Consider.

If you are living in Utah, you can always move and improve your social situation. If you live in Pakistan...where are you going to go? India? Afghanistan? Iran?

That entire region except for Israel is a gaping maw. If it did not have oil, no one would give a rats ass about it and most of them would still be living in tents and riding camels.

:Broncos:

chazoe60
05-19-2010, 04:02 PM
Consider.

If you are living in Utah, you can always move and improve your social situation. If you live in Pakistan...where are you going to go? India? Afghanistan? Iran?

That entire region except for Israel is a gaping maw. If it did not have oil, no one would give a rats ass about it and most of them would still be living in tents and riding camels.

:Broncos:


I agree, I was just making a funny with the Utah bit.

Archer81
05-19-2010, 04:04 PM
I agree, I was just making a funny with the Utah bit.


I know. I was making it serious.

If I had to live in Utah and drive to another state to buy real alcohol I'd go crazy.


:Broncos:

cutthemdown
05-19-2010, 04:05 PM
funny!!!!

chazoe60
05-19-2010, 04:05 PM
I know. I was making it serious.

If I had to live in Utah and drive to another state to buy real alcohol I'd go crazy.


:Broncos:

Imagine how crazy you'd go if you had to get married to see a little ankle?:rofl:

But at least if you lived in the Middle East you could have all the heroine you wanted.:thumbs:

UberBroncoMan
05-19-2010, 04:07 PM
<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/z7ok4njJXI8&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/z7ok4njJXI8&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

BroncsRule
05-19-2010, 04:59 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but is it that people draw him poorly/inappropriately or that they draw him at all that has the Muslim community upset?

It goes back to a VERY literal interpretation of the 2nd commandment - from Exodus 20:4-6:

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,

6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me

BroncsRule
05-19-2010, 05:00 PM
so, ANY image of the Divine, in any medium, is profane.

BroncsRule
05-19-2010, 05:01 PM
and infidels deserve death. Pretty straight forward, really.

BroncsRule
05-19-2010, 05:02 PM
Bat-**** crazy, but pretty standard.

DomCasual
05-19-2010, 05:16 PM
I agree, I was just making a funny with the Utah bit.

Utah's not too bad. I've gotten mostly used to it. The liquor thing just improved a lot, from what I hear (I'm not a drinker). Last year, they changed some laws so that it supposedly loosened things up a bit. You still can't get anything more than 3.2 beer in grocery stores. But there is no more "private club" nonsense - you can get alcohol at bars, restaurants, etc - just like everywhere else. There aren't private liquor stores. But my brothers have told me when they've visited that the state-run liquor stores have as much selection/as good of prices at any liquor store back in Colorado.

Granted, if I wasn't Mormon, I wouldn't really want to live here. But people here are generally pretty nice. The place is clean. The area is beautiful. There are LOTS of family-oriented activities. It's homogeneous, for sure. But it's also a great place to raise kids, whether you're Mormon or not.

Generally, I think people mostly find what they want to find, just about anywhere they live.

elsid13
05-19-2010, 05:18 PM
Utah's not too bad. I've gotten mostly used to it. The liquor thing just improved a lot, from what I hear (I'm not a drinker). Last year, they changed some laws so that it supposedly loosened things up a bit. You still can't get anything more than 3.2 beer in grocery stores. But there is no more "private club" nonsense - you can get alcohol at bars, restaurants, etc - just like everywhere else. There aren't private liquor stores. But my brothers have told me when they've visited that the state-run liquor stores have as much selection/as good of prices at any liquor store back in Colorado.

Granted, if I wasn't Mormon, I wouldn't really want to live here. But people here are generally pretty nice. The place is clean. The area is beautiful. There are LOTS of family-oriented activities. It's homogeneous, for sure. But it's also a great place to raise kids, whether you're Mormon or not.

Generally, I think people mostly find what they want to find, just about anywhere they live.


The lack of good beer would kill me.

Cito Pelon
05-19-2010, 06:22 PM
Seems to me human history has been a constant struggle against extremists.

Every time it looks like there might be some stability, along comes some extremist movement that forces people to choose a side.

It's the Hegelian dialectic at work, thesis vs. antithesis, from that conflict comes the new synthesis. That synthesis becomes the new thesis, then an antithesis arises to create a new conflict and subsequently a new synthesis. And so on and so on. Life is conflict. My advice is tend your own garden.

Ugly Duck
05-19-2010, 07:23 PM
Exodus 20:4-6: I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me

Huh? God will punish the great-grandchild of a rejecter? That is just wrong...

Archer81
05-19-2010, 07:25 PM
Huh? God will punish the great-grandchild of a rejecter? That is just wrong...


Old Testament God is serious business.



:Broncos:

UberBroncoMan
05-19-2010, 07:34 PM
Old Testament God is serious business.



:Broncos:

I've always found it funny how God has evolved in Western culture religions to be very peaceful and forgiving overall. Yet back int he "Old World" (Middle East) God is still the same bearer of pillars of fire and retribution etc. Really wish Islam would just evolve... yeah, not happening.

Archer81
05-19-2010, 08:02 PM
I've always found it funny how God has evolved in Western culture religions to be very peaceful and forgiving overall. Yet back int he "Old World" (Middle East) God is still the same bearer of pillars of fire and retribution etc. Really wish Islam would just evolve... yeah, not happening.


Islam wont evolve until something forces it to. If Islam has as large a moderate population as their spokemen claim, then they should be ashamed of themselves that they allow the radical elements of their faith to present what Islam is about to the rest of the world.


:Broncos:

epicSocialism4tw
05-19-2010, 10:09 PM
Huh? God will punish the great-grandchild of a rejecter? That is just wrong...

Sin leaves a path of destruction that doesnt stop at the sinner. We invite those "curses" into our midst, and there effects can spill over to harm your family. Its pretty easy to imagine. Imagine your child bearing witness to your sin over a long period of time. Maybe its bitterness or anger. Maybe its the way you treat waiters and servicepeople. Maybe its any number of things. You inadvertantly pass those things on to your child, who views them as okay because you modeled it for them.

Alot of Old Testament rules and laws are practical.

snowspot66
05-19-2010, 10:16 PM
Sin leaves a path of destruction that doesnt stop at the sinner. We invite those "curses" into our midst, and there effects can spill over to harm your family. Its pretty easy to imagine. Imagine your child bearing witness to your sin over a long period of time. Maybe its bitterness or anger. Maybe its the way you treat waiters and servicepeople. Maybe its any number of things. You inadvertantly pass those things on to your child, who views them as okay because you modeled it for them.

Alot of Old Testament rules and laws are practical.

I agree with this. The problem, as always, is in the translation and interpretation.

Dagmar
05-20-2010, 09:32 AM
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-sjc1/hs560.snc3/30598_389866142911_750032911_4138521_4075981_n.jpg

Tombstone RJ
05-20-2010, 09:42 AM
Utah's not too bad. I've gotten mostly used to it. The liquor thing just improved a lot, from what I hear (I'm not a drinker). Last year, they changed some laws so that it supposedly loosened things up a bit. You still can't get anything more than 3.2 beer in grocery stores. But there is no more "private club" nonsense - you can get alcohol at bars, restaurants, etc - just like everywhere else. There aren't private liquor stores. But my brothers have told me when they've visited that the state-run liquor stores have as much selection/as good of prices at any liquor store back in Colorado.

Granted, if I wasn't Mormon, I wouldn't really want to live here. But people here are generally pretty nice. The place is clean. The area is beautiful. There are LOTS of family-oriented activities. It's homogeneous, for sure. But it's also a great place to raise kids, whether you're Mormon or not.

Generally, I think people mostly find what they want to find, just about anywhere they live.

If you're not Mormon, leaving among Mormons can be difficult because they are so inclusive. The Mormon church is a cult, sorry, but it is.

Tombstone RJ
05-20-2010, 09:44 AM
Seems to me human history has been a constant struggle against extremists.

Every time it looks like there might be some stability, along comes some extremist movement that forces people to choose a side.

It's the Hegelian dialectic at work, thesis vs. antithesis, from that conflict comes the new synthesis. That synthesis becomes the new thesis, then an antithesis arises to create a new conflict and subsequently a new synthesis. And so on and so on. Life is conflict. My advice is tend your own garden.

Jesus preaches this very fact.

Tombstone RJ
05-20-2010, 09:48 AM
Huh? God will punish the great-grandchild of a rejecter? That is just wrong...

There are no grandchildren of God. You either accept God on a personal level or you don't. Islam breaks off from Judeo/Christian Old Testament very early on. This is why Islam is wrong.

Dagmar
05-20-2010, 10:29 AM
Freedom of Speech does not have limits. There is a point where your freedom of speech turns into inciting racial or religious hatred but my asserting my opinions that

Mohammed doesn't and didn't exist
If he did, he had a 6 year old wife and even with the 'olden days' excuse that's a wrongun for which I would like to see an excuse.
Islamists, the Taliban and Al Qeada seek to manipulate the muslim world into disharmony and violence against the West when in actual fact everyone could get along famously if they chilled out a bit.
You cannot be a religion of peace when you subjugate your women and fail to renounce terrorism, especially the recent attacks on girls schools and other civilian targets etc.


All of these things fall very far from inciting religious or racial hatred. But an Islamist will see a lot in there to justify violence.

If you can't have an open dialogue about your beliefs, and you can't have them challenged without recourse to violence, then simply put - you got issues.

Dagmar
05-20-2010, 10:31 AM
http://www.quitfacebookday.com/

DivineBronco
05-20-2010, 10:43 AM
one religion looking at another one and saying how silly and wrong it is with no sense of irony is just fascinating to me

Dagmar
05-20-2010, 10:46 AM
one religion looking at another one and saying how silly and wrong it is with no sense of irony is just fascinating to me

Exactly. They're all kind of silly! ;)

Archer81
05-20-2010, 10:49 AM
Exactly. They're all kind of silly! ;)


Manbearpig is going to get you for saying that.


:Broncos:

mizzoutigers
05-20-2010, 10:54 AM
who gives a sh** about this story and about mohammed

Dagmar
05-20-2010, 10:54 AM
Manbearpig is going to get you for saying that.


:Broncos:

http://nsaney.com/pics/al_gore_excelsior.jpg

DomCasual
05-20-2010, 10:55 AM
who gives a sh** about this story and about mohammed

Well, a bunch of unbalanced, angry Muslims, for one.

Dagmar
05-20-2010, 10:55 AM
who gives a sh** about this story and about mohammed

I'm not sure, but I never get this kind of response, I mean, it's there in the title, why click?

Ugly Duck
05-20-2010, 12:23 PM
The Mormon church is a cult, sorry, but it is.So is Christianity. How people can tell me with a straight face that they truly believe snakes can talk and there are invisible people flying around on bird wings... and that they will be burned in fire forever by red people with horns if they question it... is a dang mystery to me...

epicSocialism4tw
05-20-2010, 12:25 PM
So is Christianity. How people can tell me with a straight face that they truly believe snakes can talk and there are invisible people flying around on bird wings... and that they will be burned in fire forever by red people with horns if they question it... is a dang mystery to me...

Do you believe in life on other planets?

Ugly Duck
05-20-2010, 12:29 PM
Do you believe in life on other planets?There are so many zillions of planets out there, my guess would be that there is some life on some of them.

epicSocialism4tw
05-20-2010, 12:47 PM
There are so many zillions of planets out there, my guess would be that there is some life on some of them.

But you dont know for sure?

BroncoBuff
05-20-2010, 01:07 PM
F'ing intolerant Americans ... it's their freaking religion, RESPECT IT. Nobody has any burning need to graphically depict Mohammad, the only reason they're doing so is to provoke them. And we wonder why their fringe elements hate us ... duh.

Besides, the Christian religion has many bizarre historical definitions of blasphemy ... at one point you could not speak the word "Yahweh", just saying it would be blasphemy. So how cool would it be if everyone starting yelling "Yahweh" at you for no reason other than to make fun of you and piss you off?

epicSocialism4tw
05-20-2010, 01:56 PM
Besides, the Christian religion has many bizarre historical definitions of blasphemy ... at one point you could not speak the word "Yahweh", just saying it would be blasphemy. So how cool would it be if everyone starting yelling "Yahweh" at you for no reason other than to make fun of you and piss you off?

The same thing happens here to Christians all the time. You dont have to look far to see it.

I dont think that this is something that you trace back to Christians. This is the spirit of the age. This is the type of behavior that has been propagated by anti-religious philosophies. Secular humanists particularly have created a spirit of enmity toward religions of any kind. There is a militant extremist version of modern secular humanism that includes people like Richard Dawkins who have tried to avoid debate and instead to go straight to disrespectful attacks. This spirit has been amplified by mainly young people who would rather express hate than to try to understand or to live peacefully with people of other beliefs. Its astonishing how many Americans have been convinced that totalitarianism is acceptable...that would rather see opposing viewpoints snuffed out with violence than to see them peacefully cohabitate.

I'm afraid that if you asked militant humanists if they thought that Christianity and Islam and Judaism needed to be disposed of, that they would say "yes" and under any pragmatically appropriate circumstance...meaning that genocide is acceptable. Secular humanism doesnt have the logical, ethical, or moral fortitude to deny such things.

Scary.

Durango
05-20-2010, 02:06 PM
F'ing intolerant Americans ... it's their freaking religion, RESPECT IT. Nobody has any burning need to graphically depict Mohammad, the only reason they're doing so is to provoke them. And we wonder why their fringe elements hate us ... duh.

Besides, the Christian religion has many bizarre historical definitions of blasphemy ... at one point you could not speak the word "Yahweh", just saying it would be blasphemy. So how cool would it be if everyone starting yelling "Yahweh" at you for no reason other than to make fun of you and piss you off?


I think the whole 'draw Mohammed' idea is great. **** 'em if they can't take a joke. Jesus and God are shown in many unflattering poses all the time in a wide variety of media. Rational people recognize it for what it is; religious satire.

El Jué
05-20-2010, 02:16 PM
I was going to draw something irreverent but my god told me that it would be a sin against him to make sport of others' beliefs.

Rohirrim
05-20-2010, 02:19 PM
I was going to draw something irreverent but my god told me that it would be a sin against him to make sport of others' beliefs.

Was He sober?

woodall
05-20-2010, 02:49 PM
So is Christianity. How people can tell me with a straight face that they truly believe snakes can talk and there are invisible people flying around on bird wings... and that they will be burned in fire forever by red people with horns if they question it... is a dang mystery to me...

I completely agree. All religions have been invented by humans. There is no real, objective evidence that supports a God or an afterlife. Religions are nothing but childrens fairy tales to bring comfort to people who are afraid of the dark.

woodall
05-20-2010, 02:52 PM
There is a militant extremist version of modern secular humanism that includes people like Richard Dawkins who have tried to avoid debate and instead to go straight to disrespectful attacks.

Have you ever read anything that Richard Dawkins has written? Just because your simple mind cannot understand the concepts of evolutionary biology. Dawkins does not avoid debates but it is difficult to debate people who believe in fairy tales.

Hogan11
05-20-2010, 02:54 PM
What's the big deal? They've been drawing cartoons of Mohammed for years....

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/kni/lowres/knin505l.jpg

epicSocialism4tw
05-20-2010, 03:21 PM
Have you ever read anything that Richard Dawkins has written? Just because your simple mind cannot understand the concepts of evolutionary biology. Dawkins does not avoid debates but it is difficult to debate people who believe in fairy tales.

I am very familiar with Dawkins.

If you were more familiar with Dawkins, you would know the extent to which he avoids debate with proper philosophers. You would also understand what I meant when I referred to his penchant to launch attacks rather than to debate. And ironically, you exemplified for all of us exactly the type of attacks that Dawkins intends.

Ugly Duck
05-20-2010, 03:39 PM
But you dont know for sure?

?? Of course not... but I don't get what that has to do with folks here on Earth saying snakes can talk and invisible people are flying around them. Heck, one could postulate that there's a worm in the asshole of a grmphk on the planet Flmchbgr that's having a dream, and we are all just a part of it's dream - if it wakes up we all disappear... nobody can be sure that's not true. A goofy scenario just as silly as the red horned fire-people idea and with equal reason to believe its really the truth...

Dedhed
05-20-2010, 04:20 PM
Islam means peace. The bloody corpses they leave behind prove it.


:Broncos:

What does "Christianity" mean, and what do their bloody corpses prove?

Dedhed
05-20-2010, 04:25 PM
But you dont know for sure?

That isn't the question.

baja
05-20-2010, 04:29 PM
That isn't the question.

The rent is due on your avatar....

UberBroncoMan
05-20-2010, 04:31 PM
F'ing intolerant Americans ... it's their freaking religion, RESPECT IT. Nobody has any burning need to graphically depict Mohammad, the only reason they're doing so is to provoke them. And we wonder why their fringe elements hate us ... duh.

Besides, the Christian religion has many bizarre historical definitions of blasphemy ... at one point you could not speak the word "Yahweh", just saying it would be blasphemy. So how cool would it be if everyone starting yelling "Yahweh" at you for no reason other than to make fun of you and piss you off?

Key word in bold.

Islam needs to get with the ****ing times. If Muslims can't handle this **** they can **** off. They get no special treatment. Christianity and Judaism are made fun of all the ****ing time. WHAA WHAA WHAA.

I wonder btw. I mean... why on Earth would anyone feel the need to make fun of Mohammad. I mean, don't you think you'd need to be provoked to do something like that... O SH.

The ridiculous amount of insanely religious and fanatical Muslims have brought this kind of humor upon themselves with their constant violent actions and ****tard stupid proclamations.

Archer81
05-20-2010, 04:44 PM
What does "Christianity" mean, and what do their bloody corpses prove?


Really?

You are actually defending islamic insanity?

I am totally surprised.

:Broncos:

Archer81
05-20-2010, 04:48 PM
F'ing intolerant Americans ... it's their freaking religion, RESPECT IT. Nobody has any burning need to graphically depict Mohammad, the only reason they're doing so is to provoke them. And we wonder why their fringe elements hate us ... duh.

Besides, the Christian religion has many bizarre historical definitions of blasphemy ... at one point you could not speak the word "Yahweh", just saying it would be blasphemy. So how cool would it be if everyone starting yelling "Yahweh" at you for no reason other than to make fun of you and piss you off?


Yahweh is Jewish, not Christian.

And Christianity has always had a tradition of depicting Christ, the Saints or Mary in art and literature. For the love of God...the Sistene Chapel depicts God reaching for Adam.

:Broncos:

enjolras
05-20-2010, 04:51 PM
What a beautiful culture. So peaceful and forgiving, it just warms the heart.

How is this different from the modern Christian concept of hell? Change the caption to "Jesus watches as perfectly good people burn in hell for choosing not to arbitrarily believe in him".

Same difference.

listopencil
05-20-2010, 05:42 PM
I'm afraid that if you asked militant humanists if they thought that Christianity and Islam and Judaism needed to be disposed of, that they would say "yes" and under any pragmatically appropriate circumstance...meaning that genocide is acceptable. Secular humanism doesnt have the logical, ethical, or moral fortitude to deny such things.

Scary.


Wow, what a huge load of ****.

No wait. I do remember lessons in my history class from long ago. About how secular humanists invaded other countries and killed people because they had different beliefs. Oh never mind. That was Christians during The Crusades.

I bet it was those secular humanists that went after those "witches" in early American history, right? Nope. Christians again.

I know. It must have been secular humanists that have been persecuting the Bahá'ís in Iran. Nope. That's the Muslims.


Hmmm. Wait. I know. I bet that when a country is founded on the concept that the government isn't allowed to respect the establishment of any religion then those darned secular humanists finally have a chance to do some serious persecuting. Oh wait. That happened in the former Soviet Union. Not here.

listopencil
05-20-2010, 05:46 PM
F'ing intolerant Americans ... it's their freaking religion, RESPECT IT. Nobody has any burning need to graphically depict Mohammad, the only reason they're doing so is to provoke them. And we wonder why their fringe elements hate us ... duh.

Besides, the Christian religion has many bizarre historical definitions of blasphemy ... at one point you could not speak the word "Yahweh", just saying it would be blasphemy. So how cool would it be if everyone starting yelling "Yahweh" at you for no reason other than to make fun of you and piss you off?



No. Absolutely not. Your religious beliefs do not negate my freedom of expression.

BroncoBuff
05-20-2010, 05:55 PM
Yahweh is Jewish, not Christian.

And Christianity has always had a tradition of depicting Christ, the Saints or Mary in art and literature. For the love of God...the Sistene Chapel depicts God reaching for Adam.

All granted, I suppose ... but my reference was to Old Testament Judaism and the very early Christian Church, when it was called merely "The Way." For what it's worth, there was a huge debate in that early period whether gentiles should be permitted to join at all.

But it doesn't matter, Jewish or Christian, there was a time when speaking his name was a blasphemy. That was my point.

And uber, "If Muslims can't handle this **** they can **** off."

Really?

Wtf do you care? If their religion has a problem with it, why even question their rule? Why can't we respect that? It's not like any of us have some burning need to draw the guy.

listopencil
05-20-2010, 05:57 PM
How is this different from the modern Christian concept of hell? Change the caption to "Jesus watches as perfectly good people burn in hell for choosing not to arbitrarily believe in him".

Same difference.

I don't know- what is the modern concept of Hell? I'm half-assed familiar with Dante's Inferno but that was a long time ago. "Lake of fire", I guess? I suppose you could say that you don't see those types of depictions in modern media. Like Dante's Inferno for instance.

Hogan11
05-20-2010, 05:58 PM
No. Absolutely not. Your religious beliefs do not negate my freedom of expression.

Correct

listopencil
05-20-2010, 06:00 PM
Wtf do you care? If their religion has a problem with it, why even question their rule? Why can't we respect that? It's not like any of us have some burning need to draw the guy.


I have a problem with a group of people who are willing to travel outside of their own political boundaries to "punish" people who have different religious beliefs that theirs. Especially when that "punishment" is death.

BroncoBuff
05-20-2010, 06:01 PM
No. Absolutely not. Your religious beliefs do not negate my freedom of expression.

No, I'm not saying we should be forced not to depict him, I'm merely saying we should have the respect not to purposely disregard their rules - especially spitefully - whether we like them or not.

Zoroastrianism denies non-members to enter their temples at all, as do some I think Shintos. So what then, are you gonna march up and walk inside to prove you have "rights"?

listopencil
05-20-2010, 06:12 PM
No, I'm not saying we should be forced not to depict him, I'm merely saying we should have the respect not to purposely disregard their rules - especially spitefully - whether we like them or not.

Zoroastrianism denies non-members to enter their temples at all, as do some I think Shintos. So what then, are you gonna march up and walk inside to prove you have "rights"?

I don't have the right to enter a Shinto temple. I wouldn't go in uninvited because I respect their rights to freely assemble and the property rights of the owners/users of that temple.

I do have a right to express myself. I am displeased that some of my fellow human beings are being threatened with bodily harm and/or death merely because they wish to artistically represent Mohammed. It doesn't matter to me if they do this in a spiritual sense or an open act of defiance. I believe that they should have the right to do so, and in this country they absolutely do have the right to do so. I chose to express my displeasure by mocking their tormentors. It's one of those "you can't kill us all" statements. It is only when we stop making these statements and disconnect from the situation that their tormentors will have won. I don't want them to win. I don't want fear to win. I don't want terror to win. So they can soak up a mighty "**** You" from my direction.

elsid13
05-20-2010, 06:18 PM
No, I'm not saying we should be forced not to depict him, I'm merely saying we should have the respect not to purposely disregard their rules - especially spitefully - whether we like them or not.

Zoroastrianism denies non-members to enter their temples at all, as do some I think Shintos. So what then, are you gonna march up and walk inside to prove you have "rights"?

There is fundamental issues at the core this problem. Western ideas such of freedom of expression, speech and freedom of religion conflict directly with core beliefs some in the Muslim world have. While I respect their right to believe and worship as they please they need to respect our rights to express our freedoms. Personally I have problem with any fundamentalist that attempts to force there way of life on others.

Either the Islam religion will adopt to modern Western ideals or it will be regulated to junk pile of history. Because of the end of the day an Islamic fundamentalist Caliphate can not exist in the same space as our Modern West World.

epicSocialism4tw
05-20-2010, 06:33 PM
Wow, what a huge load of ****.

No wait. I do remember lessons in my history class from long ago. About how secular humanists invaded other countries and killed people because they had different beliefs. Oh never mind. That was Christians during The Crusades.

I bet it was those secular humanists that went after those "witches" in early American history, right? Nope. Christians again.

I know. It must have been secular humanists that have been persecuting the Bahá'ís in Iran. Nope. That's the Muslims.


Hmmm. Wait. I know. I bet that when a country is founded on the concept that the government isn't allowed to respect the establishment of any religion then those darned secular humanists finally have a chance to do some serious persecuting. Oh wait. That happened in the former Soviet Union. Not here.

What has atheism done?

...only the worst genocides in the history of the world. Two words: Russia and China.

epicSocialism4tw
05-20-2010, 06:34 PM
No. Absolutely not. Your religious beliefs do not negate my freedom of expression.

He's just asking a little maturity. I guess he's asking too much.

Archer81
05-20-2010, 06:39 PM
Wow, what a huge load of ****.

No wait. I do remember lessons in my history class from long ago. About how secular humanists invaded other countries and killed people because they had different beliefs. Oh never mind. That was Christians during The Crusades.

I bet it was those secular humanists that went after those "witches" in early American history, right? Nope. Christians again.

I know. It must have been secular humanists that have been persecuting the Bahá'ís in Iran. Nope. That's the Muslims.


Hmmm. Wait. I know. I bet that when a country is founded on the concept that the government isn't allowed to respect the establishment of any religion then those darned secular humanists finally have a chance to do some serious persecuting. Oh wait. That happened in the former Soviet Union. Not here.

Hmm...yet in 1000 years of Christian and Islam interaction and conflict neither side is even close to Soviet ethnic cleansing in the Ukraine, the Caucuses or Siberia. Can't forget Mao's butchering of Nationalist forces or his Cultural Revolution or invasion of Tibet. How about Cambodia? Vietnam? North Korea? Seems to be that communists decided other people were not worth living around.

:Broncos:

BroncoBuff
05-20-2010, 06:48 PM
There is fundamental issues at the core this problem. Western ideas such of freedom of expression, speech and freedom of religion conflict directly with core beliefs some in the Muslim world have.

How many times do I have to say this? Nobody is saying you CAN'T depict him. And freedom of religion has nothing to do with it.

You guys ever hear the phrase "Ugly American"?

BroncoBuff
05-20-2010, 06:48 PM
He's just asking a little maturity. I guess he's asking too much.

This.

Archer81
05-20-2010, 06:49 PM
All granted, I suppose ... but my reference was to Old Testament Judaism and the very early Christian Church, when it was called merely "The Way." For what it's worth, there was a huge debate in that early period whether gentiles should be permitted to join at all.

But it doesn't matter, Jewish or Christian, there was a time when speaking his name was a blasphemy. That was my point.


2000 years ago. It is 2010. Why is it that Judaism or Christianity no longer considers it a murdering offense to say "God"?

Thats the point. Why should a socially backwards area dictate to the rest of the world what they can say or cant say? Dhimmitude has many forms. I will not give up my freedom of speech to appease a group of thugs stuck in the 8th century.

:Broncos:

Dedhed
05-20-2010, 07:00 PM
The rent is due on your avatar....

Not until the 1st of the month.

Dedhed
05-20-2010, 07:05 PM
Really?

You are actually defending islamic insanity?

I am totally surprised.

:Broncos:

Nope. Merely pointing to the hypocrisy of subscribing to any religious ideology while crying foul on another.

listopencil
05-20-2010, 07:06 PM
What has atheism done?

...only the worst genocides in the history of the world. Two words: Russia and China.

That's laughable. Blaming the problems in China and the USSR on atheism. are you willing to blame Christianity for The Crusades?

Dedhed
05-20-2010, 07:07 PM
How is this different from the modern Christian concept of hell? Change the caption to "Jesus watches as perfectly good people burn in hell for choosing not to arbitrarily believe in him".

Same difference.
This.

BroncoBuff
05-20-2010, 07:09 PM
How is this different from the modern Christian concept of hell? Change the caption to "Jesus watches as perfectly good people burn in hell for choosing not to arbitrarily believe in him".

Same difference.

Yup ... Bill Maher said it best in "Religiulous": "How is it we think the Christian God is a loving God? Please, his rule is 'believe in me or burn for all eternity.'"

Archer81
05-20-2010, 07:09 PM
That's laughable. Blaming the problems in China and the USSR on atheism. are you willing to blame Christianity for The Crusades?


Depends on which Crusades you are talking about. The first few, no. Those were responses to invasion by Muslims in both the Balkans and Spain.

The later ones, yes. That was a territory and wealth grab.

And both the USSR and China are/were athiestic. Unless you feel that Christians, Muslims and Jews butchering eachother is somehow worse than athiests doing it.

:Broncos:

listopencil
05-20-2010, 07:11 PM
How many times do I have to say this? Nobody is saying you CAN'T depict him. And freedom of religion has nothing to do with it.

You guys ever hear the phrase "Ugly American"?


Because that isn't what you have been saying:

F'ing intolerant Americans ... it's their freaking religion, RESPECT IT. Nobody has any burning need to graphically depict Mohammad, the only reason they're doing so is to provoke them. And we wonder why their fringe elements hate us ... duh.

Besides, the Christian religion has many bizarre historical definitions of blasphemy ... at one point you could not speak the word "Yahweh", just saying it would be blasphemy. So how cool would it be if everyone starting yelling "Yahweh" at you for no reason other than to make fun of you and piss you off?


Are you or are you not saying that we (Americans) should not depict Mohammad if we so choose?

Archer81
05-20-2010, 07:11 PM
Yup ... Bill Maher said it best: "How is it we think the Christian God is a loving God? Please, his rule is 'believe in me or burn for all eternity.'"


Says a noted athiest...yeah. He has no reason to espouse his own personal dogma at all.


:Broncos:

Archer81
05-20-2010, 07:13 PM
People are so afraid to offend muslims that they resort to attacking Christians.

Why is it that 99% of the world's terrorists are Islamic? Anyone?


:Broncos:

listopencil
05-20-2010, 07:17 PM
Depends on which Crusades you are talking about. The first few, no. Those were responses to invasion by Muslims in both the Balkans and Spain.

The later ones, yes. That was a territory and wealth grab.

And both the USSR and China are/were athiestic. Unless you feel that Christians, Muslims and Jews butchering eachother is somehow worse than athiests doing it.

:Broncos:

Nope, not at all. I'm saying that I disagree with McSkillets post:

"...Secular humanism doesnt have the logical, ethical, or moral fortitude to deny such things (genocide)."


It's ridiculous to state that morality can not exist in a person without religion.

Dedhed
05-20-2010, 07:17 PM
I don't have the right to enter a Shinto temple. I wouldn't go in uninvited because I respect their rights to freely assemble and the property rights of the owners/users of that temple.

I do have a right to express myself. I am displeased that some of my fellow human beings are being threatened with bodily harm and/or death merely because they wish to artistically represent Mohammed.

What if I want to express myself by pissing on your car?

Archer81
05-20-2010, 07:18 PM
Nope, not at all. I'm saying that I disagree with McSkillets post:

"...Secular humanism doesnt have the logical, ethical, or moral fortitude to deny such things (genocide)."


It's ridiculous to state that morality can not exist in a person without religion.


AH. Got ya.

Agreed.

:Broncos:

Steve Sewell
05-20-2010, 07:19 PM
Have you ever read anything that Richard Dawkins has written? Just because your simple mind cannot understand the concepts of evolutionary biology. Dawkins does not avoid debates but it is difficult to debate people who believe in fairy tales.

You accuse someone of being simple minded, yet fail to write a complete sentence.

listopencil
05-20-2010, 07:20 PM
People are so afraid to offend muslims that they resort to attacking Christians.

Why is it that 99% of the world's terrorists are Islamic? Anyone?


:Broncos:


Nope, not at all. I'm attacking an arrogant mentality that believing in God makes you right. Deservedly so I might add.

listopencil
05-20-2010, 07:22 PM
What if I want to express myself by pissing on your car?


You would be violating my property rights in that instance. Similar to why I wouldn't enter a Shinto temple uninvited.

Dedhed
05-20-2010, 07:23 PM
People are so afraid to offend muslims that they resort to attacking Christians.Why are others so wont to offend?

Why is it that 99% of the world's terrorists are Islamic? Anyone?
I think that depends heavily on your definition of "terrorist". Some would consider a catholic priest who molests children a terrorist. Did you include them in your stat?

Dedhed
05-20-2010, 07:24 PM
You would be violating my property rights in that instance. Similar to why I wouldn't enter a Shinto temple uninvited.

Why is it such a stretch to see that Muslims consider the image of Mohammed their property?

BroncoBuff
05-20-2010, 07:26 PM
Because that isn't what you have been saying:

Are you or are you not saying that we (Americans) should not depict Mohammad if we so choose?

PLEASE! You simply must know the difference between "SHOULD not" and "CAN not."

Please tell me you know the difference.

Archer81
05-20-2010, 07:27 PM
Nope, not at all. I'm attacking an arrogant mentality that believing in God makes you right. Deservedly so I might add.


I'll try to explain how I view this. Islamic behavior now should not be justified or defended because of Christian behavior then. Simply because Christians butchered other Christians 800 years ago should not give Muslims free reign to terrorize at will.


:Broncos:

BroncoBuff
05-20-2010, 07:28 PM
Says a noted athiest...yeah. He has no reason to espouse his own personal dogma at all.

It's not a 'dogma' really ... it's merely him pointing out what he perceives to be a massive contradiction at the core of Christianity.

Archer81
05-20-2010, 07:28 PM
Why is it such a stretch to see that Muslims consider the image of Mohammed their property?


What difference does it make to them in the middle east if I depict Mohammed in the US? In what way does it affect them at all?


:Broncos:

listopencil
05-20-2010, 07:29 PM
Why is it such a stretch to see that Muslims consider the image of Mohammed their property?

Because I believe that an artist owns any image that he creates. Furthermore, Mohammad is an idea. A concept. I absolutely will not relinquish my free will, including any concepts that make up any part of it.

Archer81
05-20-2010, 07:30 PM
It's not a 'dogma' really ... it's merely his pointing out what he sees as a massive contradiction at the fundamental core of Christianity.


No. Its an attack on religion by a noted moron. He confuses the message with the messenger. On purpose, considering Mahers rants on religion.


:Broncos:

Dedhed
05-20-2010, 07:31 PM
I'll try to explain how I view this. Islamic behavior now should not be justified or defended because of Christian behavior then. Simply because Christians butchered other Christians 800 years ago should not give Muslims free reign to terrorize at will.
I don't think there is anyone here saying that.

listopencil
05-20-2010, 07:32 PM
I'll try to explain how I view this. Islamic behavior now should not be justified or defended because of Christian behavior then. Simply because Christians butchered other Christians 800 years ago should not give Muslims free reign to terrorize at will.


:Broncos:


Yes, I completely agree with you. I tend to use those comparisons though to illustrate similarities in religious thought. I think someone on this thread already pointed out that those Muslim countries seem to be caught up in the Dark Ages still.

Archer81
05-20-2010, 07:32 PM
Why are others so wont to offend?


I think that depends heavily on your definition of "terrorist". Some would consider a catholic priest who molests children a terrorist. Did you include them in your stat?


Oh, excuse me then. 98.999999% of terrorists are Islamic.


:Broncos:

Dedhed
05-20-2010, 07:35 PM
Because I believe that an artist owns any image that he creates. Furthermore, Mohammad is an idea. A concept. I absolutely will not relinquish my free will, including any concepts that make up any part of it.

I agree with you in principle, but I think you're walking a very fine line here.

Say an artist chose to depict the rape and murder of a loved one of yours. I think you would have the right to be very offended.

listopencil
05-20-2010, 07:37 PM
I agree with you in principle, but I think you're walking a very fine line here.

Say an artist chose to depict the rape and murder of a loved one of yours. I think you would have the right to be very offended.

I'm sure I would be very offended. If I killed the guy I'd still go to prison though. Because that would be wrong.

Steve Sewell
05-20-2010, 07:43 PM
Nope, not at all. I'm attacking an arrogant mentality that believing in God makes you right. Deservedly so I might add.

Just out of curiosity, would you support the rights of a group that, for example, organized a "Call a Black Person the [n-word] Day"? Or would you find it offensive and distasteful? Because that is similar to what "Draw Mohammed" day is to Muslims. They find it offensive.

I'm all for freedom of speech, and I LOVE South Park...but the only reason Stone and Parker did the Mohammed thing was for shock value.

Dedhed
05-20-2010, 07:45 PM
What difference does it make to them in the middle east if I depict Mohammed in the US? In what way does it affect them at all?

And if they burn American Flags?

elsid13
05-20-2010, 07:49 PM
How many times do I have to say this? Nobody is saying you CAN'T depict him. And freedom of religion has nothing to do with it.

You guys ever hear the phrase "Ugly American"?

What you are not getting this is not about "being nice" or "respecting" something. This is fundamental conflict between two core values systems. Both system can not exist in this world.

This isn't about being a "ugly American"

Dedhed
05-20-2010, 07:51 PM
Oh, excuse me then. 98.999999% of terrorists are Islamic.


:Broncos:If you honestly believe that, you can't be engaged in actual conversation.

Dedhed
05-20-2010, 07:55 PM
I'm sure I would be very offended. If I killed the guy I'd still go to prison though. Because that would be wrong.

Then we agree.

elsid13
05-20-2010, 07:56 PM
If you honestly believe that, you can't be engaged in actual conversation.

Actually since the Northern Ireland Issue has calmed down, most terrorist events that have occurred in last 10 years have connection to Islamic fundamentalist movement. That ranges from Middle East to South East Asia to Africa.

Dedhed
05-20-2010, 07:57 PM
This is fundamental conflict between two core values systems. Both system can not exist in this world.
Wow, that is a scary statement.

BroncoBuff
05-20-2010, 08:02 PM
What you are not getting this is not about "being nice" or "respecting" something. This is fundamental conflict between two core values systems. Both system can not exist in this world.

You must be pulling our legs ... core values?

It is of no value at all to draw pictures that offend others.

And "both systems cannot exist" ... wtf?

You simply cannot be serious.

elsid13
05-20-2010, 08:04 PM
Wow, that is a scary statement.

It should be. Because anyone that thinks that if we pull out of Afghanistan, Iraq and stop our support of Israel will make us safer is missing what is going on. This conflict is no different then the cold war. Do we want to represent freedom of individual to decide his/her own fate or do we what to give that power away to bunch of old men that make the rules for us.

elsid13
05-20-2010, 08:06 PM
You must be pulling our legs ... core values?

It is of no value at all to draw pictures that offend others.

And "both systems cannot exist" ... wtf?

You simply cannot be serious.

It not about drawing pictures. It about a deeper issue, do we as society have the right to express ourselves. Does Hustler have the right to make fun of Jerry Falwell?

Dedhed
05-20-2010, 08:07 PM
It should be. Because anyone that thinks that if we pull out of Afghanistan, Iraq and stop our support of Israel will make us safer is missing what is going on. This conflict is no different then the cold war. Do we want to represent freedom of individual to decide his/her own fate or do we what to give that power away to bunch of old men that make the rules for us.
Gibberish

Dedhed
05-20-2010, 08:10 PM
It about a deeper issue, do we as society have the right to express ourselves.Yes. And so do Muslim societies.

The whole "the two can't exist in this world" take is utter stupidity.

Dagmar
05-20-2010, 08:40 PM
http://i48.tinypic.com/978xmo.jpg

BroncoBuff
05-20-2010, 08:54 PM
It about a deeper issue, do we as society have the right to express ourselves. Does Hustler have the right to make fun of Jerry Falwell?

What is it about the difference between "can" not and "should" not that you don't get?

You have the right to draw whatever you want there, spanky ... nobody's trying to take that away.

Ugly Duck
05-20-2010, 09:07 PM
I mean... why on Earth would anyone feel the need to make fun of Mohammad. Folks don't like someone on the other side of the world saying, "We've outlawed something, and if you do it... we're gonna come over there and kill you!" Few would be depicting Mohamed if there was not a blanket death threat against it hanging over the world.

shaunroach
05-20-2010, 09:46 PM
Drawing Mohammed isn't about pissing off Muslims, it's about defending free speech.

Radical Muslim intolerance for free speech is already affecting our culture. South Park's episode 201 still isn't posted online because Comedy Central is afraid of the Muslim response. Not afraid of being boycotted or losing money, but out of fear they will be bombed or someone will be killed, like what happened in Holland.

That is not how America should function.

watermock
05-20-2010, 10:28 PM
No.

Mohammed was the exact of Jesus

epicSocialism4tw
05-20-2010, 10:30 PM
Nope, not at all. I'm saying that I disagree with McSkillets post:

"...Secular humanism doesnt have the logical, ethical, or moral fortitude to deny such things (genocide)."


It's ridiculous to state that morality can not exist in a person without religion.

I didnt say that morality doesnt exist without religion. I said that secular humanism doesnt have the logical, ethical, or moral fortitude to withstand the challenge of allowing competing philosophies, and that extension goes all the way out to genocide. Secular humanism is a suffocating box built around the heads of those without faith.

From the Humanist Manifesto:

"FIRST: Religious humanists regard the universe as self-existing and not created."

...these charter humanists set the groundwork in noting that humanism is 1) a religion, and 2) that God, a god, or gods are not part of it.

"NINTH: In the place of the old attitudes involved in worship and prayer the humanist finds his religious emotions expressed in a heightened sense of personal life and in a cooperative effort to promote social well-being."

...so, out with religions, and in with "cooperative effort to promote social well-being". Note that the "social well-being" is cooperative. That means that everyone has to conform to the humanist standard. What about those that refuse to conform?

"THIRTEENTH: Religious humanism maintains that all associations and institutions exist for the fulfillment of human life. The intelligent evaluation, transformation, control, and direction of such associations and institutions with a view to the enhancement of human life is the purpose and program of humanism. Certainly religious institutions, their ritualistic forms, ecclesiastical methods, and communal activities must be reconstituted as rapidly as experience allows, in order to function effectively in the modern world"

...this is the scary one. If this religion has its way, all religious practices will be stripped and replaced with what humanists believe is necessary to "function effectively in the modern world." To these clowns, humanism is an evangelical necessity...something that has to happen. This is where you can follow a logical extension out to anywhere. If they think that Islam makes the "socialized cooperative economic order" less stable, then who's to say that you dont just spray 'em all and dump 'em in a hole? Theyre just meat puppets anyway with no intrinsic worth except for what they mean to the "socialized cooperative economic order". There is no ultimate punishment other than what morally relativistic humanists deem necessary, which is completely arbitrary and flimsy. Moral relativism = injustice.

epicSocialism4tw
05-20-2010, 10:34 PM
Folks don't like someone on the other side of the world saying, "We've outlawed something, and if you do it... we're gonna come over there and kill you!" Few would be depicting Mohamed if there was not a blanket death threat against it hanging over the world.

A big part of why those bozos have killed our citizens is because we have interests in their countries (which have huge interest in us as well. ahem...Saudi Arabia), and we send our people and our culture to their world.

Our culture offends them severely, especially the culture out of Hollywood. We have invaded their holy land as well, so they have other reasons than the need to force Sharia law on us. Not to say that they dont want that too, because they do. But its not the only reason, and its probably the least significant reason.

baja
05-20-2010, 10:46 PM
No.

Mohammed was the exact of Jesus

Damn Jesus had an Exact???

BroncoBuff
05-20-2010, 11:36 PM
No.

Mohammed was the exact of Jesus

Not exactly sure what that means, but if you're comparing and contrasting faiths, how about this: I mentioned Zoroastrianism earlier in here, started about 500 years before Christ, and it is pretty clearly the precursor of Christianity. The Magi - three wise men who visited Bethlehem were Zoroastrians. Zoroastrians were the first monotheistic religion, complete with the concept of a good entity vs. evil entity, the first with the idea that forgiveness of sins comes through God ... they had many Christian concepts centuries earlier, including the idea of an armageddon where good will overcome evil, time will end, and all souls who ever lived would be brought back and the Earth will become a paradise. Sound familiar?

Heres the rub: There's a reasonably well received theory that Jesus' lost years between 12 and 30 were spent in ancient Iran, studying Zoroastrianism. This could conceivably explain where much of his teachings came from.

UberBroncoMan
05-20-2010, 11:39 PM
Damn Jesus had an Exact???

Actually kind of. Islam is just a rip off of Christianity and Judaism. It just so happened that the religion's creator believed in polygamy and which wasn't the case with the others. He also believed in pedophilia (it's a fact). At least Jesus wasn't banging kids. Regardless. The basis is the same.

So Mohammad basically said. Ok, Jesus was a prophet of God. The final prophet right? I mean that's what's taught. OH WAIT... no no, God made a mistake. I'm actually the final prophet... and, and, he says this and this, etc.

Followed by making the religion even more strict and violent than Christianity in an effort to help spread it and maintain faith within the group. Hence returning to Mecca (after he was banished) and butchering everyone who wouldn't submit and assimilate to his Muslim creation.

Remember why the Protestant sect of Christianity was made? How about Mormons? All for the convenience of one, and those who followed said person.

Islam is no different than Mormon. It just so happens that the Muslims started out centuries ago... as opposed to the 1800's.

Dagmar
05-20-2010, 11:46 PM
Not exactly sure what that means, but if you're comparing and contrasting faiths, how about this: I mentioned Zoroastrianism earlier in here, started about 500 years before Christ, and it is pretty clearly the precursor of Christianity. The Magi - three wise men who visited Bethlehem were Zoroastrians. Zoroastrians were the first monotheistic religion, complete with the concept of a good entity vs. evil entity, the first with the idea that forgiveness of sins comes through God ... they had many Christian concepts centuries earlier, including the idea of an armageddon where good will overcome evil, time will end, and all souls who ever lived would be brought back and the Earth will become a paradise. Sound familiar?

Heres the rub: There's a reasonably well received theory that Jesus' lost years between 12 and 30 were spent in ancient Iran, studying Zoroastrianism. This could conceivably explain where much of his teachings came from.

Another poster had posted this and you would have had a very different response.

Yes, well done Timmy, 2 + 2 does = a potato, but on the other hand...

watermock
05-21-2010, 12:02 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Marty_Feldman.png/220px-Marty_Feldman.png.

BroncoBuff
05-21-2010, 12:05 AM
Would you support the rights of a group that, for example, organized a "Call a Black Person the [n-word] Day"?

Damn right I'd support that ... nobody's gonna take away my rights or freedom of speech!




(That's a very good comparison SS)

BroncoBuff
05-21-2010, 12:14 AM
Another poster had posted this and you would have had a very different response.
?


Yes, well done Timmy, 2 + 2 does = a potato, but on the other hand...
Not sure how these circumstances and similarities can be brushed off with "on the other hand." For most historians there are meaningful parallels here.

baja
05-21-2010, 12:19 AM
?



Not sure how these circumstances and similarities can be brushed off with "on the other hand." For most historians there are meaningful parallels here.

I liked that earlier post of yours.

Archer81
05-21-2010, 12:22 AM
And if they burn American Flags?


I really dont care. If you've noticed they tend to burn everything over there. Effigies of world leaders, Oprah book club books, Israeli flags, the purple teletubby. Also amusing that when they hold these demonstrations in Damascus or Tehran the signs are in English...wonder which audience they are trying to reach...


:Broncos:

Archer81
05-21-2010, 12:29 AM
You must be pulling our legs ... core values?

It is of no value at all to draw pictures that offend others.

And "both systems cannot exist" ... wtf?

You simply cannot be serious.


So...I should shelve something I value because it could offend somebody? I do not understand this line of thinking. Why should I abandon my freedom of speech? Is Islam above criticism? Why can a picture of the pope be burned in effigy but a cartoonist can't use mohammed in a political satire in Denmark?

And both systems cannot exist side by side. What if they start rioting because our women have their heads uncovered? Should we stop offending them and make western women cover their heads? When exactly do we stop backtracking on our values to honor and respect theirs?

:Broncos:

Que
05-21-2010, 12:36 AM
I don't understand the fascination with engaging in or advocating for an activity exclusively meant to offend a large part of the world's population. I don't understand the whole "no imagery of the Prophet" thing but then again, I really don't understand the concept of engaging in an activity with the sole intention to upset people. Childish IMHO.

baja
05-21-2010, 12:56 AM
I don't understand the fascination with engaging in or advocating for an activity exclusively meant to offend a large part of the world's population. I don't understand the whole "no imagery of the Prophet" thing but then again, I really don't understand the concept of engaging in an activity with the sole intention to upset people. Childish IMHO.

It's just like the "N" word you can use it but there will be hell to pay.

BroncoBuff
05-21-2010, 12:57 AM
I don't understand the fascination with engaging in or advocating for an activity exclusively meant to offend a large part of the world's population and that otherwise you'd have no interest in engaging in. I don't understand the whole "no imagery of the Prophet" thing but then again, I really don't understand the concept of engaging in an activity with the sole intention to upset people. Childish IMHO.

THIS ... plus the blue.

Well said Que. I see you're an August '05 guy too ... we might have to make room in the Amigos for you. Dagmar? ;D

OABB
05-21-2010, 01:00 AM
I don't understand the fascination with engaging in or advocating for an activity exclusively meant to offend a large part of the world's population. I don't understand the whole "no imagery of the Prophet" thing but then again, I really don't understand the concept of engaging in an activity with the sole intention to upset people. Childish IMHO.

While I agree a bit, sometimes offending people is neccesary for the sake of mankind. Especially radical nutjobs. It's not only your right o offend them it should be encouraged. **** people that can't take a joke. It means they are caught up in bull**** and can't face it.

Taco John
05-21-2010, 01:59 AM
http://i.imgur.com/spuiE.jpg

watermock
05-21-2010, 02:57 AM
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/yh4mi2Ea_7o&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/yh4mi2Ea_7o&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>.

watermock
05-21-2010, 03:10 AM
It's all clear.

Kill.

listopencil
05-21-2010, 07:27 AM
I didnt say that morality doesnt exist without religion. I said that secular humanism doesnt have the logical, ethical, or moral fortitude to withstand the challenge of allowing competing philosophies, and that extension goes all the way out to genocide. Secular humanism is a suffocating box built around the heads of those without faith.



So you didn't say morality doesn't exist without religion but somehow secular humanists lack "moral fortitude"? And then you just posted an excerpt from some Religious Humanist doctrine, which has nothing to do with secular humanism. In that case, here's a bunny with a pancake on its head. This proves my point.

uplink
05-21-2010, 10:02 AM
I heard the next episode of Survivor will take place in an undisclosed town in the Middle East. The contestants will have to wear clothing with labeled pictures of Muhammad on them during the entire show until they are voted off.

gyldenlove
05-21-2010, 10:37 AM
I don't understand the fascination with engaging in or advocating for an activity exclusively meant to offend a large part of the world's population. I don't understand the whole "no imagery of the Prophet" thing but then again, I really don't understand the concept of engaging in an activity with the sole intention to upset people. Childish IMHO.

The question is should we limit our own freedom of speech because of the sensitivities of others?

If so how many people need to be offended to make something off limits? 1, 2, 100, 10000. 10000000?

Does it make a difference if the people who are offended are not American?

What if the people who would get offended do not actualy find out, would it be okay then?

Does it make a difference if people get offended for religious, racial, political, educational, national, or some other reason? are some reasons more important than others?

So who shouldn't people satire? the president? supreme court justices? jesus? brett favre? michael jackson?

epicSocialism4tw
05-21-2010, 12:17 PM
So you didn't say morality doesn't exist without religion but somehow secular humanists lack "moral fortitude"? And then you just posted an excerpt from some Religious Humanist doctrine, which has nothing to do with secular humanism. In that case, here's a bunny with a pancake on its head. This proves my point.

Um...

I have a little news for you.

That was from the first humanist manifesto.

http://www.americanhumanist.org/Who_We_Are/About_Humanism/Humanist_Manifesto_I

Dagmar
05-21-2010, 12:55 PM
http://i.imgur.com/spuiE.jpg

:notworthy LOL :notworthy LOL

BroncoBuff
05-21-2010, 01:19 PM
The question is should we limit our own freedom of speech because of the sensitivities of others?

This just makes zero sense to me.

You "limit your freedom" every single day to be polite, you just don't realize it: When you go to the mall or a restaurant, how often do you hold the door for a woman coming in behind you? How often do you defer to an older person when waiting in line to board a bus or elevator, even when you're "ahead" of them on an angle or in a line? We do these kinds of things all the time, without even noticing really.

So take it another step ... First off, wtf do you care about drawing Mohammad? Yes, you CAN draw Muhammad, I would defend that right 100%. I'm just asking why do you care? Just as with the elevator or bus or or restaurant entrance, we should not do so because it's a) rude to turn ytour back and/or draw a picture, and b) we don't need to draw Mohammad.

Just admit what it is: Yours is a racial/religious intolerance, based on 9/11. Just admit it, anybody in a turban threatens you.

El Jué
05-21-2010, 01:24 PM
Just admit it, anybody in a turban threatens you.

You shouldn't pretend to mistake contempt for fear. It weakens your position.

listopencil
05-21-2010, 02:31 PM
Um...

I have a little news for you.

That was from the first humanist manifesto.

http://www.americanhumanist.org/Who_We_Are/About_Humanism/Humanist_Manifesto_I

Um...

Try reading the links you post.


"THIRTEENTH: Religious humanism maintains that all associations and institutions exist for the fulfillment of human life. The intelligent evaluation, transformation, control, and direction of such associations and institutions with a view to the enhancement of human life is the purpose and program of humanism. Certainly religious institutions, their ritualistic forms, ecclesiastical methods, and communal activities must be reconstituted as rapidly as experience allows, in order to function effectively in the modern world."


You made a comment about secular humanism and then tried to back it up with a cut-and-paste about religious humanism, which is something entirely different. Not only that, you implied that secular humanists lacked the morality to make good ethical decisions. You lay claim to some sort of moral high ground and insinuate that people who don't share your religious beliefs are evil. Pathetic. This is exactly the kind of arrogant bull**** that is causing the problem. How does that pancake taste?

BroncoBuff
05-21-2010, 02:33 PM
You shouldn't pretend to mistake contempt for fear. It weakens your position.

Fair enough. Substitute "hate" for "fear" then.

listopencil
05-21-2010, 02:42 PM
This just makes zero sense to me.

You "limit your freedom" every single day to be polite, you just don't realize it: When you go to the mall or a restaurant, how often do you hold the door for a woman coming in behind you? How often do you defer to an older person when waiting in line to board a bus or elevator, even when you're "ahead" of them on an angle or in a line? We do these kinds of things all the time, without even noticing really.

I see that in a different way. Not as limiting my freedom but expressing myself. I am that guy that guy holds the door for the person behind me. I am that guy that gives up his seat on the bus because an elderly person needs it and I don't. At my heart, and at my best, I am that guy who loves and respects his fellow man. I owe it to myself to make that life affirming decision to live as I am.

So take it another step ... First off, wtf do you care about drawing Mohammad? Yes, you CAN draw Muhammad, I would defend that right 100%. I'm just asking why do you care? Just as with the elevator or bus or or restaurant entrance, we should not do so because it's a) rude to turn ytour back and/or draw a picture, and b) we don't need to draw Mohammad.


Same thing, opposite side of the coin.

2KBack
05-21-2010, 02:42 PM
This just makes zero sense to me.

You "limit your freedom" every single day to be polite, you just don't realize it: When you go to the mall or a restaurant, how often do you hold the door for a woman coming in behind you? How often do you defer to an older person when waiting in line to board a bus or elevator, even when you're "ahead" of them on an angle or in a line? We do these kinds of things all the time, without even noticing really.

So take it another step ... First off, wtf do you care about drawing Mohammad? Yes, you CAN draw Muhammad, I would defend that right 100%. I'm just asking why do you care? Just as with the elevator or bus or or restaurant entrance, we should not do so because it's a) rude to turn ytour back and/or draw a picture, and b) we don't need to draw Mohammad.

Just admit what it is: Yours is a racial/religious intolerance, based on 9/11. Just admit it, anybody in a turban threatens you.

Is this really an argument anymore? You don't seem to be against the concept that a person CAN draw whatever they want. That simple right I think is what most of the outrage is about. Nothing will raise the hackles of a person quite like the act of denying a right. whether you think there is value in fighting for that right in this particular instance is irrelevant. In the end it is about the right to draw whatever. It's about the CAN, not the SHOULD. You agree that a person should have the right to draw Mohammad it seems. Now it seems like you are giving a morality lesson in what a person should and should not do.

Br0nc0Buster
05-21-2010, 02:45 PM
Fair enough. Substitute "hate" for "fear" then.

<a href="http://photobucket.com/images/team%20america" target="_blank"><img src="http://i904.photobucket.com/albums/ac246/dnr_bam/dalton/team_america.jpg" border="0" alt="cjc Pictures, Images and Photos"/></a>

Rohirrim
05-21-2010, 02:45 PM
I sure as hell am not going to participate in this bull****.

I don't want to screw up my chance at getting 72 virgins.

Rohirrim
05-21-2010, 02:46 PM
So you didn't say morality doesn't exist without religion but somehow secular humanists lack "moral fortitude"? And then you just posted an excerpt from some Religious Humanist doctrine, which has nothing to do with secular humanism. In that case, here's a bunny with a pancake on its head. This proves my point.

I'm convinced.

epicSocialism4tw
05-21-2010, 03:24 PM
Um...

Try reading the links you post.


"THIRTEENTH: Religious humanism maintains that all associations and institutions exist for the fulfillment of human life. The intelligent evaluation, transformation, control, and direction of such associations and institutions with a view to the enhancement of human life is the purpose and program of humanism. Certainly religious institutions, their ritualistic forms, ecclesiastical methods, and communal activities must be reconstituted as rapidly as experience allows, in order to function effectively in the modern world."


You made a comment about secular humanism and then tried to back it up with a cut-and-paste about religious humanism, which is something entirely different. Not only that, you implied that secular humanists lacked the morality to make good ethical decisions. You lay claim to some sort of moral high ground and insinuate that people who don't share your religious beliefs are evil. Pathetic. This is exactly the kind of arrogant bull**** that is causing the problem. How does that pancake taste?

That's humanism's charter document, chief.

Secular humanism is squeezed from the cheeks of that document.

From the Council for Secular Humanism:
"In the twentieth century scientists, philosophers, and progressive theologians began to organize in an effort to promote the humanist alternative to traditional faith-based world views. These early organizers classified humanism as a non-theistic religion which would fulfill the human need for an ordered ethical/philosophical system to guide one's life, a "spirituality" without the supernatural"


Squirm all you want, but it is what it is.

Ugly Duck
05-21-2010, 03:53 PM
Religious Humanism, Secular Humanism... it all sounds like some kinda Church of No Religion or something. Don't forget that a lot of us folk are not an "ism" at all... we just don't believe there are leprechauns or witches or Gods or demons other similar hocus-pocus. Very simple, straightforward & non-philosophical.

I gotta feeling that there are lots of folks who say they are religious because of historic social pressure to say so... but deep in their heart of hearts they don't really believe in all the hooie they've been fed since they were a child. Lets make American culture safe for them folks to just come on out & admit it...

Archer81
05-21-2010, 03:56 PM
This thread has gone to strange places.


:Broncos:

listopencil
05-21-2010, 04:00 PM
That's humanism's charter document, chief.

Secular humanism is squeezed from the cheeks of that document.

From the Council for Secular Humanism:
"In the twentieth century scientists, philosophers, and progressive theologians began to organize in an effort to promote the humanist alternative to traditional faith-based world views. These early organizers classified humanism as a non-theistic religion which would fulfill the human need for an ordered ethical/philosophical system to guide one's life, a "spirituality" without the supernatural"


Squirm all you want, but it is what it is.


Thanks, I needed a laugh. "Squeezed from the cheeks". Anyway, no. Religious humanism is not secular humanism. Actually read the stuff you are quoting.

"early organizers classified humanism as a non-theistic religion "

That shows a fallacy in classification. Probably why it says "early organizers", huh? I'm talking about secular humanism. Secular humanism is what you made your comment about. You can try to lump it all together but it doesn't really work. Just like I could lump together Christians, Jews, Moslems, etc. but there are many differences between them.

Maybe this will help:

Adjective

* S: (adj) secular (of or relating to the doctrine that rejects religion and religious considerations)
* S: (adj) worldly, secular, temporal (characteristic of or devoted to the temporal world as opposed to the spiritual world) "worldly goods and advancement"; "temporal possessions of the church"
* S: (adj) profane, secular (not concerned with or devoted to religion) "sacred and profane music"; "secular drama"; "secular architecture", "children being brought up in an entirely profane environment"
* S: (adj) secular (of or relating to clergy not bound by monastic vows) "the secular clergy"
* S: (adj) laic, lay, secular (characteristic of those who are not members of the clergy) "set his collar in laic rather than clerical position"; "the lay ministry"

http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=secular


Generally "secular" refers to that first definition.

There is a somewhat obscure possible meaning of "secular" when referring to people of faith while engaged in activity that has nothing to do with the church, but it is obscure and rarely used. Yet it still fits my working definition of secular humanism, not yours.

listopencil
05-21-2010, 04:02 PM
Religious Humanism, Secular Humanism... it all sounds like some kinda Church of No Religion or something. Don't forget that a lot of us folk are not an "ism" at all... we just don't believe there are leprechauns or witches or Gods or demons other similar hocus-pocus. Very simple, straightforward & non-philosophical.

I gotta feeling that there are lots of folks who say they are religious because of historic social pressure to say so... but deep in their heart of hearts they don't really believe in all the hooie they've been fed since they were a child. Lets make American culture safe for them folks to just come on out & admit it...


I'm Agnostic, by the way. In fact- I'm an Agnostic minister.

epicSocialism4tw
05-21-2010, 04:13 PM
Thanks, I needed a laugh. "Squeezed from the cheeks". Anyway, no. Religious humanism is not secular humanism. Actually read the stuff you are quoting.

"early organizers classified humanism as a non-theistic religion "

That shows a fallacy in classification. Probably why it says "early organizers", huh? I'm talking about secular humanism. Secular humanism is what you made your comment about. You can try to lump it all together but it doesn't really work. Just like I could lump together Christians, Jews, Moslems, etc. but there are many differences between them.

Maybe this will help:

Adjective

* S: (adj) secular (of or relating to the doctrine that rejects religion and religious considerations)
* S: (adj) worldly, secular, temporal (characteristic of or devoted to the temporal world as opposed to the spiritual world) "worldly goods and advancement"; "temporal possessions of the church"
* S: (adj) profane, secular (not concerned with or devoted to religion) "sacred and profane music"; "secular drama"; "secular architecture", "children being brought up in an entirely profane environment"
* S: (adj) secular (of or relating to clergy not bound by monastic vows) "the secular clergy"
* S: (adj) laic, lay, secular (characteristic of those who are not members of the clergy) "set his collar in laic rather than clerical position"; "the lay ministry"

http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=secular


Generally "secular" refers to that first definition.

There is a somewhat obscure possible meaning of "secular" when referring to people of faith while engaged in activity that has nothing to do with the church, but it is obscure and rarely used. Yet it still fits my working definition of secular humanism, not yours.

I'm just showing you facts about the origins of humanism. The fact that you deny that it was originally a religion (and still is to many people today) tells more about you than it does about humanism.

Moral relativity = amorality .

listopencil
05-21-2010, 04:23 PM
I'm just showing you facts about the origins of humanism. The fact that you deny that it was originally a religion (and still is to many people today) tells more about you than it does about humanism.

Moral relativity = amorality .


Wrong again. I deny that being secular makes you immoral. Which is what you stated earlier.

Hotrod
05-21-2010, 04:29 PM
have we decided whos God is best yet?

gyldenlove
05-21-2010, 05:17 PM
This just makes zero sense to me.

You "limit your freedom" every single day to be polite, you just don't realize it: When you go to the mall or a restaurant, how often do you hold the door for a woman coming in behind you? How often do you defer to an older person when waiting in line to board a bus or elevator, even when you're "ahead" of them on an angle or in a line? We do these kinds of things all the time, without even noticing really.

So take it another step ... First off, wtf do you care about drawing Mohammad? Yes, you CAN draw Muhammad, I would defend that right 100%. I'm just asking why do you care? Just as with the elevator or bus or or restaurant entrance, we should not do so because it's a) rude to turn ytour back and/or draw a picture, and b) we don't need to draw Mohammad.

Just admit what it is: Yours is a racial/religious intolerance, based on 9/11. Just admit it, anybody in a turban threatens you.

Wow, who left a turd on your front lawn today, cool your jets there hotshot and stop being a judgemental asshole for a second.

Let me break it down so you understand:

If I want to make fun of Dubya or Obama I will, and nobody in the whole wide world can tell me not to. If anyone is offended it is their problem.

If I feel like making fun of Jesus I will, and nobody in the whole wide world can tell me not to.

Why is it then that someone is trying to tell me I can't make fun of Mohammed? interestingly these are the same people who publish pictures making fun of the pope amongst others. Why is it that the prophet is sacred but Jesus, Obama, Odin, Buddha and so many others are fair game?

Ultimately and you would know this if you were informed about the whole prophet drawing issue, this is not about depicting or satiring the prophet, this is about fighting the groups who wish to abolish free speech and who wish to impose religious reasoning and dogma on people who do not share their beliefs. Depicting and satiring the prophet was just a means to expose the powers that want to force their religious views on others through prohibitions and limitations.

I am not asking muslims to depict the prophet, they are free to not do so since it is against their beliefs and it is their right to have those beliefs. I am just standing up for my right to not share those beliefs and one of the beliefs I do not share is that the prophet should not be depicted.

Just FYI, I have several muslim friends and have lived in a predominantly muslim neighbourhood for 3 years and found it to be a great place to live.

You are right though, my intolerance is religious, I have no tolerance for any religion trying to preach to me, if people want to believe let them do it in the comfort of their own homes and holy places.

:thumbsup:

gyldenlove
05-21-2010, 05:18 PM
have we decided whos God is best yet?

Tim Tebow is best.

elsid13
05-21-2010, 05:23 PM
have we decided whos God is best yet?

We have, but BroncoBuff has convinced us that would be to mean to the tell the Muslims.

epicSocialism4tw
05-21-2010, 10:50 PM
Wrong again. I deny that being secular makes you immoral. Which is what you stated earlier.

Moral relativity doesnt have enough rigidity to deny genocide.

listopencil
05-21-2010, 11:08 PM
Moral relativity doesnt have enough rigidity to deny genocide.

Faith based motivations are removed from logic, and have been responsible for more acts of genocide than secular thought. Oh look, I can speak in absolutes too.

Vegas_Bronco
05-22-2010, 12:14 AM
Actually logic based motivations are the same as faith based motivations. Fear is the factor that leads us away from logic and faith altogether and causes truly irrational behavior. Fear causes us to put our hope in something of assurance or can be proven to 'work'. Fear leads to ridiculous actions and thought process.

Religion isn't about a group, it's an individual and his deity. When he/she has sufficient identity with that form (whatever it be), it becomes a mannerism and sense of morality - identity. This can dangerously come from generations of tradition or oppositely from rebellion from these same generations of tradition. Whatever the case, religion can be viewed as individual's fingerprint on others as we all come from dissimilar experiences. Some choose to spill blood in the name of the most sacred and pure individuals while others do marvelous works in the name of these same individuals. I will never be held accountable for anything you do or say - unless I choose to follow it whether it be through fear or logic/faith - then it becomes who I am also. 'By their works, ye shall know them.'

Individual Religion can be visualized in the teachings of both Mohammed and Christ. "Let him that is without sin be the first to cast the stone" (Christ taught when seeing an adultress woman being stoned by a group acting upon THEIR own version of legal and morale law). Notice that no one in the angry group about to stone the woman to death was without sin...except HE who introduced this new way of thinking to an angry mob. Regardless of your morale law(s), habit(s), or belief(s), religion isn't a judgement of who you are or what your religion has been; but is a sign of your personal morale fingerprint. Like your fingerprint, your own life experiences are like no others and therefore will have no similar 'print'.

I like all religions...but even God himself had 1/3 of his children choose to disregard his way and choose their own way of rational or morale print. He didn't blow them up or 'draw a picture of them'...He simply gave us all agency and said...."Go Now, and make your own print."

Now whether you believe in God or some kind of Diety or not is also your own road. Remember that the odds of a single protein molecule forming by chance is 1 in 10 to the 243rd power (that is a 10 followed by 243 zero's). A single cell is comprised of millions of protein molecules...and well, there are about 10-100 cells in the head of a pin....and well, there are millions of those pins that make you think, breath, feel, act/react cognitively and incognitively. But I firmly believe there are many hints in your life that will tell you in a more straight forward way then throwing some numerical odds at your door. Do some research on the golden section, fibonacci sequence, phi, etc....even the stock market is held to a 'higher law' based on the human print.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Xpt0ykZqP4&feature=related


Also the word 'cult' isn't necessarily a bad thing - take a minute and read the definition of a 'cult' and you'll see it can apply to even your crazed devotion to your beloved Broncos:

cult

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–noun 1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
7. the members of such a religion or sect.
8. any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.

re·li·gion

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–noun 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic. religious rites.
8. Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.

Ugly Duck
05-22-2010, 02:24 AM
have we decided whos God is best yet?

Not settled yet. If we kill more of them, our God is best. If they kill more of us, their God is best. Whole lotta killin' to go before its decided.