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RonDaChamp24
05-19-2010, 07:25 AM
ESPN Insider: Quinn the best option?
With Denver Broncos head coach Josh McDaniels potentially on the hot seat -- as we discussed earlier this week -- the choice for him at starting QB is an important one, even moreso than for a coach with a little more security.

Two of the Broncos QBs, Tim Tebow and Kyle Orton, have been in the headlines quite a bit recently; the former for his alleged over-drafting and the latter for his possibly being traded. But perhaps one of the other guys on the roster, former Cleveland Browns flameout Brady Quinn, could be the best option as the team's 2009 starter, at least in the opinion of Mark Kiszla of the Denver Post. According to Kiszla, out of all four options (sophomore Tom Brandstater being the other), Quinn "can place the football in a window 15-20 yards downfield" better than the rest.

Coming out of college, Quinn appeared to be poised for stardom. Perhaps being united with a QB guru such as McDaniels will bring that ability back out of him.

http://insider.espn.go.com/insider/features/rumors

TheReverend
05-19-2010, 07:29 AM
Wouldnt surprise me

Beantown Bronco
05-19-2010, 07:30 AM
Coming out of college, Quinn appeared to be poised for stardom. Perhaps being united with a QB guru such as McDaniels will bring that ability back out of him.


I love how this has been spread throughout the media like wildfire. Can anyone really name any other instance of a guy that was drafted high, sucked for a few years as a starter for the team that drafted him, and then went on to light it up on his next team?

I can't think of any examples of this. Seriously.

tsiguy96
05-19-2010, 07:33 AM
cant believe i used to pay for insider

HEAV
05-19-2010, 07:35 AM
ESPN loves to put crap like this on the "Insider" and draw in the chumps ($$$)

Hogan11
05-19-2010, 07:37 AM
I love how this has been spread throughout the media like wildfire. Can anyone really name any other instance of a guy that was drafted high, sucked for a few years as a starter for the team that drafted him, and then went on to light it up on his next team?

I can't think of any examples of this. Seriously.

Steve Young is the only name that comes to mind...though I'm not really sure where he was drafted before going to the USFL instead.

Ray Finkle
05-19-2010, 07:38 AM
cant believe i used to pay for insider

I bought a three year magazine subscription for 10 bucks...free insider....

Beantown Bronco
05-19-2010, 07:50 AM
Steve Young is the only name that comes to mind...though I'm not really sure where he was drafted before going to the USFL instead.

He would come the closest I guess, but he still doesn't really meet the criteria these guys are talking about with Quinn coming right in from year one and starting. It literally took until Young's 6th season in San Fran (8th season overall) before he became anything resembling a full time starter. His first four or five years with them, he really didn't do much of anything and just came in for a few series here and there in less than half the games, averaging about 40 completions per season. Hardly an impact player.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-19-2010, 07:52 AM
Doug Williams and Steve Young both played for the Bucs at first, neither was any good, each won a Super Bowl later.

Hogan11
05-19-2010, 07:56 AM
He would come the closest I guess, but he still doesn't really meet the criteria these guys are talking about with Quinn coming right in from year one and starting. It literally took until Young's 6th season in San Fran (8th season overall) before he became anything resembling a full time starter. His first four or five years with them, he really didn't do much of anything and just came in for a few series here and there in less than half the games, averaging about 40 completions per season. Hardly an impact player.

As Moose Guy pointed out, I was talking about his flameout with the Bucs prior to his arrival in SF. I'm trying to remember the time he arrived in TB, I think hopes were pretty high for him there.

Williams did take the Bucs into the playoffs before darting off to the USFL, so I don't believe he qualifies under the terms you set.

watermock
05-19-2010, 07:56 AM
Brett Favre

Hogan11
05-19-2010, 07:59 AM
Brett Favre

He was never a starter for Atlanta.

Jason in LA
05-19-2010, 08:05 AM
Jim Plunkett. Won the Heisman, drafted number 1 overall, sucked for the Pats, didn't do anything with the 49ers, then won two Super Bowl titles with the Raiders.

I'm not giving up hope on Quinn for two years in Cleveland. That team sucked, and he had injuries, oh yeah, and he was benched because of his contract, not poor play. Anderson came in and was JaMarcus Russell awful and they stuck with him instead of going back to Quinn. It was all because of the contract.

Maybe Quinn really is a bust, but he might just live up to his potential with the Broncos. That would be really big for this team.

TheReverend
05-19-2010, 08:09 AM
I love how this has been spread throughout the media like wildfire. Can anyone really name any other instance of a guy that was drafted high, sucked for a few years as a starter for the team that drafted him, and then went on to light it up on his next team?

I can't think of any examples of this. Seriously.

Kinda Brees, but he had 2 pretty damn good years with the Bolts before really lighting it up in New Orleans.

Beantown Bronco
05-19-2010, 08:13 AM
Doug Williams and Steve Young both played for the Bucs at first, neither was any good, each won a Super Bowl later.

Ummm, from 1980-81, Doug Williams had 7,000 yds passing, 47 TDs and 30 INTs for a terrible franchise. Are you really comparing that to what Quinn's done the last two years?

TheReverend
05-19-2010, 08:15 AM
I love how this has been spread throughout the media like wildfire. Can anyone really name any other instance of a guy that was drafted high, sucked for a few years as a starter for the team that drafted him, and then went on to light it up on his next team?

I can't think of any examples of this. Seriously.

Also...

1. Why is there a draft pedigree prerequisite?

2. Quinn's combined starting experience is 12 games...

HEAV
05-19-2010, 08:16 AM
I love how this has been spread throughout the media like wildfire. Can anyone really name any other instance of a guy that was drafted high, sucked for a few years as a starter for the team that drafted him, and then went on to light it up on his next team?

I can't think of any examples of this. Seriously.

Rich Gannon kinda sorta

Beantown Bronco
05-19-2010, 08:16 AM
Jim Plunkett. Won the Heisman, drafted number 1 overall, sucked for the Pats, didn't do anything with the 49ers, then won two Super Bowl titles with the Raiders.

No way. Statistically speaking, Plunkett's first four years in the league were among the best of his career!

http://www.nfl.com/players/jimplunkett/profile?id=PLU604056

Beantown Bronco
05-19-2010, 08:18 AM
Also...

1. Why is there a draft pedigree prerequisite?

2. Quinn's combined starting experience is 12 games...

Why? Because the media keeps pointing to that in their "pro-Quinn" assessments. They're saying that he had all the tools, pedigree, etc in college that McD will somehow be able to bring out where others couldn't in a matter of mere months.

It's not my argument. It's the media's. I'm just trying to find another example where this has happened. And, so far, I'm not seeing any other valid examples. There are plenty of examples of guys who were mediocre their first few years and then went on to light it up. But not one single example that I can think of of a guy who sucked as bad as Quinn did his first few years going on to light it up.

tsiguy96
05-19-2010, 08:22 AM
Why? Because the media keeps pointing to that in their "pro-Quinn" assessments. They're saying that he had all the tools, pedigree, etc in college that McD will somehow be able to bring out where others couldn't in a matter of mere months.

It's not my argument. It's the media's. I'm just trying to find another example where this has happened. And, so far, I'm not seeing any other valid examples. There are plenty of examples of guys who were mediocre their first few years and then went on to light it up. But not one single example that I can think of of a guy who sucked as bad as Quinn did his first few years going on to light it up.

i might be the only one whos still curious what brandstater brings to the table.

TheReverend
05-19-2010, 08:37 AM
Why? Because the media keeps pointing to that in their "pro-Quinn" assessments. They're saying that he had all the tools, pedigree, etc in college that McD will somehow be able to bring out where others couldn't in a matter of mere months.

It's not my argument. It's the media's. I'm just trying to find another example where this has happened. And, so far, I'm not seeing any other valid examples. There are plenty of examples of guys who were mediocre their first few years and then went on to light it up. But not one single example that I can think of of a guy who sucked as bad as Quinn did his first few years going on to light it up.

Brees was the definition of terrible and played his way into the drafting of Phillip Rivers... now he's a HoF'er...

Beantown Bronco
05-19-2010, 08:40 AM
Brees was the definition of terrible and played his way into the drafting of Phillip Rivers... now he's a HoF'er...

We're getting away from the original argument here.

Brees' last two years in SD were great. Mirror images of his first two in New Orleans. The original argument was essentially sucking in stop #1, simply not getting it, but performing great in stop #2 due to different coaching.

fontaine
05-19-2010, 08:41 AM
It doesn't matter who plays as QB.

I know it's hard to see past the position but honestly, our offense is a huge unkown at this point regardless of who's throwing the ball.

OL: Interior was awful last year, and a few rookies and an injured Clady are not going to improve that.
WRs: Two new rookies with foot injuries minus the 1000 yards, multiple TDs from Marshall.
TEs: Quinn/Graham minus Scheff.
RB: About the only plus with Moreno getting over his first year but this ofcourse depends on Buck staying healthy which he doesn't.

So how is a rookie QB, or a bust going to magically produce from day one in this team with that many holes?

On paper, this is probably the weakest offense I've seen in years. About the only guy that brings some kind of continuity is Orton and I don't even think that highly of him. Yes he's limited but he gives us the best chance to win.

BMarsh615
05-19-2010, 08:45 AM
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. **** ESPN Insider.

ColoradoDarin
05-19-2010, 08:51 AM
E!spn Insider - We recycle the free Denver Post website and charge you for it!

bowtown
05-19-2010, 08:54 AM
ESPN Insider: Quinn the best option?
With Denver Broncos head coach Josh McDaniels potentially on the hot seat

Stopped reading there.

TheReverend
05-19-2010, 08:55 AM
We're getting away from the original argument here.

Brees' last two years in SD were great. Mirror images of his first two in New Orleans. The original argument was essentially sucking in stop #1, simply not getting it, but performing great in stop #2 due to different coaching.

That's silly... he has 12 total games of starting experience on one of the worst teams in the NFL during that entire stretch outside of 2007 which only further complicated his path to playing time.

55CrushEm
05-19-2010, 09:03 AM
Stopped reading there.

Yep.....the notion that McD is on the "hot seat" this year is just laughable.

Beantown Bronco
05-19-2010, 09:04 AM
That's silly...

That's exactly what I'm saying. The media's argument is silly.

Tombstone RJ
05-19-2010, 09:27 AM
E!spn Insider - We recycle the free Denver Post website and charge you for it!

Hilarious!

Rigs11
05-19-2010, 09:35 AM
Didn't we hear this same crap last year about how Simms was pushing orton for the job? Blah..Blah..Blah...

MaloCS
05-19-2010, 09:44 AM
The Broncos aren't Orton's team, they aren't Quinn's team and they most definitely aren't Brandy's team. Timbow is the prince and the Broncos are most definitely his team. He's the QB of the future and in my opinion, the sooner the future starts, the better it will be for the Broncos organization.

It baffles me as to how most people on this forum can't see this. Most of you people honestly believe that the Broncos are going to make a run for the Super Bowl this year which is hilarious. The Broncos are rebuilding and the sooner the young talent gets on the field and takes their lumps the faster the rebuilding process will be.

Timbow needs to play sooner rather then later. He has to and he will. Just wait and see who's under center by game 12 of the 2010 season. Here's a hint, it won't be Orton, it won't be Quinn and it won't be Brandy.

Steve Sewell
05-19-2010, 09:47 AM
ESPN Insider: Quinn the best option?
With Denver Broncos head coach Josh McDaniels potentially on the hot seat -- as we discussed earlier this week -- the choice for him at starting QB is an important one, even moreso than for a coach with a little more security.

Two of the Broncos QBs, Tim Tebow and Kyle Orton, have been in the headlines quite a bit recently; the former for his alleged over-drafting and the latter for his possibly being traded. But perhaps one of the other guys on the roster, former Cleveland Browns flameout Brady Quinn, could be the best option as the team's 2009 starter, at least in the opinion of Mark Kiszla of the Denver Post. According to Kiszla, out of all four options (sophomore Tom Brandstater being the other), Quinn "can place the football in a window 15-20 yards downfield" better than the rest.

Coming out of college, Quinn appeared to be poised for stardom. Perhaps being united with a QB guru such as McDaniels will bring that ability back out of him.

http://insider.espn.go.com/insider/features/rumors

I'm glad that part of their analysis hinges on Mark Kiszla's expertise when it comes to player evaluation.

/sarcasm

Popps
05-19-2010, 10:18 AM
ESPN Insider: Quinn the best option?
With Denver Broncos head coach Josh McDaniels potentially on the hot seat -- as we discussed earlier this week -- the choice for him at starting QB is an important one, even moreso than for a coach with a little more security.

Two of the Broncos QBs, Tim Tebow and Kyle Orton, have been in the headlines quite a bit recently; the former for his alleged over-drafting and the latter for his possibly being traded. But perhaps one of the other guys on the roster, former Cleveland Browns flameout Brady Quinn, could be the best option as the team's 2009 starter, at least in the opinion of Mark Kiszla of the Denver Post. According to Kiszla, out of all four options (sophomore Tom Brandstater being the other), Quinn "can place the football in a window 15-20 yards downfield" better than the rest.

Coming out of college, Quinn appeared to be poised for stardom. Perhaps being united with a QB guru such as McDaniels will bring that ability back out of him.

http://insider.espn.go.com/insider/features/rumors


[ ] McDaniels is on hot seat
[x] Writer needed an angle for his pay-per-read story

Dagmar
05-19-2010, 10:44 AM
Didn't we hear this same crap last year about how Simms was pushing orton for the job? Blah..Blah..Blah...

And quite a few journalists kept pushing for it even when we 6 & 0 (Woody) and some posters too (mock & Buff)! Hilarious!

mnfan
05-19-2010, 10:50 AM
2009 starter? How old is the article? Sorry, but if you are the WWL, you don't make that mistake.

Inkana7
05-19-2010, 10:56 AM
I love how this has been spread throughout the media like wildfire. Can anyone really name any other instance of a guy that was drafted high, sucked for a few years as a starter for the team that drafted him, and then went on to light it up on his next team?

I can't think of any examples of this. Seriously.

*cough* Brett Favre *cough*

bronco militia
05-19-2010, 10:56 AM
I love how this has been spread throughout the media like wildfire. Can anyone really name any other instance of a guy that was drafted high, sucked for a few years as a starter for the team that drafted him, and then went on to light it up on his next team?

I can't think of any examples of this. Seriously.

Jake Plummer for a season or two

Inkana7
05-19-2010, 10:57 AM
He was never a starter for Atlanta.

because he blew so hard.

Beantown Bronco
05-19-2010, 11:00 AM
*cough* Brett Favre *cough*

Nope. He didn't play for Atlanta before going to Green Bay.

Unless you are saying he sucked after his grand total of 4 pass attempts he had there.

Beantown Bronco
05-19-2010, 11:02 AM
Jake Plummer for a season or two

He had 6,000 yds passing and 38 TDs after his first two seasons.

Inkana7
05-19-2010, 11:09 AM
Nope. He didn't play for Atlanta before going to Green Bay.

Unless you are saying he sucked after his grand total of 4 pass attempts he had there.

Brett Favre sucked so hard in preseason and got so fat that the Falcons shipped him out, despite him being a high draft pick. That was the criteria, no?

Inkana7
05-19-2010, 11:10 AM
He had 6,000 yds passing and 38 TDs after his first two seasons.

And a lot of INTs and losses.

Jason in LA
05-19-2010, 11:10 AM
Ummm, from 1980-81, Doug Williams had 7,000 yds passing, 47 TDs and 30 INTs for a terrible franchise. Are you really comparing that to what Quinn's done the last two years?

I don't think that's a fair comparison to Quinn. Those were Williams' 3rd and 4th full years as the starter. Williams started the bulk of his rookie season, and he was the starter from week one. He started his entire second season. So he got a chance to develop into a good QB.

Quinn only played in one game his rookie season, his season was cut short his second because of injury after only three games, and last year he was benched because of a contract issue. It wasn't because he was playing horrible. By the time they put him back in that team had mailed it in for the season.

I'd say that with the Broncos, this is his shot to show if he's really good, or if he was one of the reasons why the Browns sucked. To me the jury is still out on the guy. Orton is as average as it gets, so I don't see the point in wasting any more time with him. But at least with Quinn there is the potential of something good. If he turns out to be a bust, well he was just there until Tebow is ready. It's a risk worth taking.

bronco militia
05-19-2010, 11:12 AM
He had 6,000 yds passing and 38 TDs after his first two seasons.

so a "few years" equals 2 years....just checking

I think Jake qualifies for your scenario. Brady Quinn just friggen sucks, period.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PlumJa00.htm

RonDaChamp24
05-19-2010, 11:13 AM
I bought a three year magazine subscription for 10 bucks...free insider....

Same here except it was 2 years for $14. It's free and I jut activated it yesterday. Figured some news was better than none.

Jason in LA
05-19-2010, 11:16 AM
No way. Statistically speaking, Plunkett's first four years in the league were among the best of his career!

http://www.nfl.com/players/jimplunkett/profile?id=PLU604056

On second thought, Plunkett sucked his whole career. Those stats are nothing to write home about. Looks like he ended up on a really good team in the second half of his career.

Beantown Bronco
05-19-2010, 11:16 AM
Brett Favre sucked so hard in preseason and got so fat that the Falcons shipped him out, despite him being a high draft pick. That was the criteria, no?

No. Here it is again. Word for word.

Can anyone really name any other instance of a guy that was drafted high, sucked for a few years as a starter for the team that drafted him, and then went on to light it up on his next team

Favre doesn't meet that criteria.

footstepsfrom#27
05-19-2010, 11:18 AM
I love how this has been spread throughout the media like wildfire. Can anyone really name any other instance of a guy that was drafted high, sucked for a few years as a starter for the team that drafted him, and then went on to light it up on his next team?

I can't think of any examples of this. Seriously.
Jim Plunket comes to mind. You could make a case for Rich Gannon and Jake Plummer but neither was drafted that high, though both found their success late in their careers.

And how about Craig Morton? He was taken 5th overall and used mostly in a backup roll till he came to Denver except for a brief Giants stint where he started and sucked eggs.

Jason in LA
05-19-2010, 11:22 AM
The Broncos aren't Orton's team, they aren't Quinn's team and they most definitely aren't Brandy's team. Timbow is the prince and the Broncos are most definitely his team. He's the QB of the future and in my opinion, the sooner the future starts, the better it will be for the Broncos organization.

It baffles me as to how most people on this forum can't see this. Most of you people honestly believe that the Broncos are going to make a run for the Super Bowl this year which is hilarious. The Broncos are rebuilding and the sooner the young talent gets on the field and takes their lumps the faster the rebuilding process will be.

Timbow needs to play sooner rather then later. He has to and he will. Just wait and see who's under center by game 12 of the 2010 season. Here's a hint, it won't be Orton, it won't be Quinn and it won't be Brandy.

What are you talking about. I haven't heard anybody say that the Broncos are going to make a run at the Super Bowl this year. And you say that most of us believe that? And not everybody is sold on Tebow being a potential great QB.

Kaylore
05-19-2010, 11:25 AM
Jim Plunket comes to mind. You could make a case for Rich Gannon and Jake Plummer but neither was drafted that high, though both found their success late in their careers.

And how about Craig Morton? He was taken 5th overall and used mostly in a backup roll till he came to Denver except for a brief Giants stint where he started and sucked eggs.

Morton was the Cowboys starter and then supplanted by Staubach and then shipped out. He was their legit starter though and played very well for the Cowboys. That would be more like an example of Boomer Esiason where they play well, change teams and play well again for another team.

Beantown Bronco
05-19-2010, 11:26 AM
Jim Plunket comes to mind. You could make a case for Rich Gannon and Jake Plummer but neither was drafted that high, though both found their success late in their careers.

And how about Craig Morton? He was taken 5th overall and used mostly in a backup roll till he came to Denver except for a brief Giants stint where he started and sucked eggs.

We dealt with Plunket above.

Gannon didn't make a splash until his third or fourth team and 10 years into his career. It doesn't really apply to this scenario of "instant turnaround after a few months on his second team" that the media is now feeding us.

Morton is almost a clone of Gannon. Denver was his third team and he actually had quite a bit of success in the league before he came here. Two of his 4 best statistical seasons came pre-Denver. It's not like he simply came to Denver and became a different guy.

Plummer is perhaps the closest comparison I've seen so far, but he too actually had a few seasons with a lot of individual success in Arizona.

bronco militia
05-19-2010, 11:28 AM
We dealt with Plunket above.

Gannon didn't make a splash until his third or fourth team and 10 years into his career. It doesn't really apply to this scenario of "instant turnaround after a few months on his second team" that the media is now feeding us.

Morton is almost a clone of Gannon. Denver was his third team and he actually had quite a bit of success in the league before he came here. Two of his 4 best statistical seasons came pre-Denver. It's not like he simply came to Denver and became a different guy.

Plummer is perhaps the closest comparison I've seen so far, but he too actually had a few seasons with a lot of individual success in Arizona.

I think we can all agree that it doesn't happen often and when it does it still doesn't result in a Lombardi.

HAT
05-19-2010, 11:33 AM
Can anyone really name any other instance of a guy that was drafted, sucked for a few years as a starter for the team that drafted him, and then went on to light it up on his next team?



Kyle Orton. ^5

Beantown Bronco
05-19-2010, 11:36 AM
Kyle Orton. ^5

jhns' head just exploded

HAT
05-19-2010, 11:41 AM
Which is pretty much why I posted it.....:~ohyah!:

Mountain Bronco
05-19-2010, 11:50 AM
First, I didn't know McD is on the hot seat. Far from it in my opinion. Second, I didn't know Kizla is know a qualified QB analyst?

What a joke.

Hogan11
05-19-2010, 12:10 PM
I don't think that's a fair comparison to Quinn. Those were Williams' 3rd and 4th full years as the starter. Williams started the bulk of his rookie season, and he was the starter from week one. He started his entire second season. So he got a chance to develop into a good QB.

He also took the Bucs to the playoffs, people often forget that.

TailgateNut
05-19-2010, 12:13 PM
jhns' head just exploded


That would mean the avg. football fan IQ just increased exponentially.

Hamrob
05-19-2010, 01:15 PM
I love how this has been spread throughout the media like wildfire. Can anyone really name any other instance of a guy that was drafted high, sucked for a few years as a starter for the team that drafted him, and then went on to light it up on his next team?

I can't think of any examples of this. Seriously.Eh...Steve Young? Eh...Rich Gannon? Eh...Jim Plunkett?

I'd have to think about it, but I think there's more than you realize.

Hamrob
05-19-2010, 01:19 PM
I think Quinn would be better compared with a guy like Schaab. Quinn only played in 14 games and looked good in some of those games. He hardly played enough to be labeled a flop. He left a so-so situation for a good one. I think he'll be really good for us...better than Orton.

Beantown Bronco
05-19-2010, 01:20 PM
Eh...Steve Young? Eh...Rich Gannon? Eh...Jim Plunkett?

I'd have to think about it, but I think there's more than you realize.

Read the thread. All of those have been disqualified.

Hamrob
05-19-2010, 01:20 PM
First, I didn't know McD is on the hot seat. Far from it in my opinion. Second, I didn't know Kizla is know a qualified QB analyst?

What a joke.McD isn't on the hot seat yet...but, if we miss the playoffs this year...he will be then!

Hamrob
05-19-2010, 01:22 PM
Read the thread. All of those have been disqualified.Understood. However, Quinn never started a few years...not even a full season. So, the question really doesn't fit Quinn.

Hogan11
05-19-2010, 01:37 PM
Read the thread. All of those have been disqualified.

I'm still having a hard time understanding why Steve Young was disqualified.

He was selected @ #1 in the supplemental draft and signed with the Bucs after the USFL imploded. He promptly went 3-16 as their starter, was deemed a bust and basically given away to SF. Sure he held a clipboard for three years afterward, but from '91 on he was one of the best in the game.

Gob
05-19-2010, 01:39 PM
Read the thread. All of those have been disqualified.

What point are you trying to make with the disqualifications? Why don't those examples illustrate the general point even if they are not identical to Brady's situation? Does something about Brady's exact situation make him special? Is a guy who started a handful of games over 2 years on a horrible team LESS likely to be able to look different on a better team with a scheme similar to the one he was successful with then guys who failed on multiple teams over multiple years before looking good?

Beantown Bronco
05-19-2010, 02:14 PM
I'm still having a hard time understanding why Steve Young was disqualified.

He was selected @ #1 in the supplemental draft and signed with the Bucs after the USFL imploded. He promptly went 3-16 as their starter, was deemed a bust and basically given away to SF. Sure he held a clipboard for three years afterward, but from '91 on he was one of the best in the game.

It's PRECISELY because of that clipboard holding that he's disqualified. The media is saying that Quinn will be the best and make a huge improvement in the position from year one....day one really. They are not allowing him years of clipboard holding ala Young to learn and get better over time. They are essentially saying that with McD coaching him, he can come right in and essentially light it up.

Young didn't do this in SF. It took him until about his 8th year in the league to start doing it. McD will not be given that kind of time.

Beantown Bronco
05-19-2010, 02:15 PM
Understood. However, Quinn never started a few years...not even a full season. So, the question really doesn't fit Quinn.

It fits Quinn because, though he wasn't the starter for two full seasons, he did get signficant starting experience over the last two seasons.

Beantown Bronco
05-19-2010, 02:21 PM
What point are you trying to make with the disqualifications? Why don't those examples illustrate the general point even if they are not identical to Brady's situation? Does something about Brady's exact situation make him special? Is a guy who started a handful of games over 2 years on a horrible team LESS likely to be able to look different on a better team with a scheme similar to the one he was successful with then guys who failed on multiple teams over multiple years before looking good?

Here is the deal.

I'm not arguing that Quinn will never be good. I'm solely arguing against the media's belief that he is already the best QB on the Broncos roster based solely on the fact that he has McD as his coach now and he will finally be given the chance to shine like he supposedly did in college.

History has shown that QBs can suck their first few years and eventually grow into great players. Several of you have show examples of this. Let's be clear. I'm not arguing against that. I'm arguing against the existence in all of history of this:

a QB who had one, two or three mostly terrible seasons of starting experience under their belt, and immediately gone on to be much more productive elsewhere from day one.

That is what I'm looking for. An example of that.

Brees, Favre, Plunkett, Gannon, Young.....none of those guys fit that criteria.

It's funny, but the one joke response of Orton is probably the closest match.

footstepsfrom#27
05-19-2010, 02:45 PM
That's silly... he has 12 total games of starting experience on one of the worst teams in the NFL during that entire stretch outside of 2007 which only further complicated his path to playing time.
This.

elsid13
05-19-2010, 03:00 PM
I love how this has been spread throughout the media like wildfire. Can anyone really name any other instance of a guy that was drafted high, sucked for a few years as a starter for the team that drafted him, and then went on to light it up on his next team?

I can't think of any examples of this. Seriously.

Jim Plunkett

SonOfLe-loLang
05-19-2010, 03:11 PM
I love how this has been spread throughout the media like wildfire. Can anyone really name any other instance of a guy that was drafted high, sucked for a few years as a starter for the team that drafted him, and then went on to light it up on his next team?

I can't think of any examples of this. Seriously.

Young! Testaverde! Gannon! Im sure others

meangene
05-19-2010, 03:15 PM
Jim Plunkett

Nope. He is disqualified because his parents are blind and, I believe, Quinn's parents are not sight-impaired. :rofl:

footstepsfrom#27
05-19-2010, 03:21 PM
There are plenty of examples of guys who were mediocre their first few years and then went on to light it up. But not one single example that I can think of of a guy who sucked as bad as Quinn did his first few years going on to light it up.
Given the 3 year time frame covers a rookie year with a missed TC in a contract holdout, sitting one year behind a guy who made the pro bowl and a season cut short by injuries in it seems like you're overstating your case for how badly he sucked. He hardly saw the field so at this point he seems like more of an unknown than anthing else.

footstepsfrom#27
05-19-2010, 03:35 PM
Morton was the Cowboys starter and then supplanted by Staubach and then shipped out. He was their legit starter though and played very well for the Cowboys. That would be more like an example of Boomer Esiason where they play well, change teams and play well again for another team.
Looking at Morton's career stats I see only two seasons where it looks like he started for Dallas and he sat on the bench for 4 years before he did. Starting 2 of 10 seasons after being drafted with the 5th pick in the draft makes you a bust IMO so I'm not sure how he was either their legit starter or played that well. At NY following this, he threw 20 more INT's than TD's in 3 years, hence my observation that he sucked there also.

Beantown Bronco
05-19-2010, 03:43 PM
Jim Plunkett

I already posted his numbers here. Most of his "best" statistical seasons were early in his career.

http://www.nfl.com/players/jimplunkett/profile?id=PLU604056

Archer81
05-19-2010, 03:47 PM
I love how this has been spread throughout the media like wildfire. Can anyone really name any other instance of a guy that was drafted high, sucked for a few years as a starter for the team that drafted him, and then went on to light it up on his next team?

I can't think of any examples of this. Seriously.


Steve Young.


:Broncos:

Beantown Bronco
05-19-2010, 03:59 PM
Steve Young.


:Broncos:

This thread is only a few pages, yet we keep re-hashing the same names.

baja
05-19-2010, 04:11 PM
This thread is only a few pages, yet we keep re-hashing the same names.

Cassel


actually you are right Orton is close to the scenario.

Archer81
05-19-2010, 04:14 PM
This thread is only a few pages, yet we keep re-hashing the same names.


Yes.

I didnt read the entire thread. My apologies.


:Broncos:

Cito Pelon
05-19-2010, 04:29 PM
I don't think that's a fair comparison to Quinn. Those were Williams' 3rd and 4th full years as the starter. Williams started the bulk of his rookie season, and he was the starter from week one. He started his entire second season. So he got a chance to develop into a good QB.

Quinn only played in one game his rookie season, his season was cut short his second because of injury after only three games, and last year he was benched because of a contract issue. It wasn't because he was playing horrible. By the time they put him back in that team had mailed it in for the season.

I'd say that with the Broncos, this is his shot to show if he's really good, or if he was one of the reasons why the Browns sucked. To me the jury is still out on the guy. Orton is as average as it gets, so I don't see the point in wasting any more time with him. But at least with Quinn there is the potential of something good. If he turns out to be a bust, well he was just there until Tebow is ready. It's a risk worth taking.

Quinn's gonna get his chance to prove himself. Right now I'm thinking Orton is the best option. I think Orton will improve slightly from last season, be less tentative, get the ball out faster.

It's nice to have Quinn on the roster, I think he has some upside. Quinn and Orton are gonna be fighting it out to see who starts, I guess. Quinn is gonna press Orton, but does he have the leadership skills that Orton has? It's a big deal.

Brandstater seems to be in the doghouse. Starting out in OTA's as #3 after a year in the system doesn't bode well for the kid.

TheReverend
05-19-2010, 04:33 PM
Quinn's gonna get his chance to prove himself. Right now I'm thinking Orton is the best option. I think Orton will improve slightly from last season, be less tentative, get the ball out faster.

It's nice to have Quinn on the roster, I think he has some upside. Quinn and Orton are gonna be fighting it out to see who starts, I guess. Quinn is gonna press Orton, but does he have the leadership skills that Orton has? It's a big deal.

Brandstater seems to be in the doghouse. Starting out in OTA's as #3 after a year in the system doesn't bode well for the kid.

I think he's going to improve a lot more than slightly, but I'm not certain it will be enough.

My main complaint with him last season was his lack of balls/arm to go deep. Apparently Josh saw that too which is why he said the other day they're putting more emphasis on the deep passing game.

IF (big if) Orton can sack up and throw even a respectable deep ball, it will do absolute WONDERS for his short and intermediate game as well.

Still... is it enough?

Cito Pelon
05-19-2010, 04:47 PM
No. Here it is again. Word for word.

Can anyone really name any other instance of a guy that was drafted high, sucked for a few years as a starter for the team that drafted him, and then went on to light it up on his next team

Favre doesn't meet that criteria.

Kerry Collins? Fran Tarkenton? Neil Lomax? Sonny Jurgenson? Joe Kapp? Craig Morton? Mark Rypien?

It certainly is hard to find one. Plunkett might fit the bill somewhat. Rich Gannon sure had some success with the Raiders, but that was his third team I believe.

baja
05-19-2010, 04:49 PM
I think he's going to improve a lot more than slightly, but I'm not certain it will be enough.

My main complaint with him last season was his lack of balls/arm to go deep. Apparently Josh saw that too which is why he said the other day they're putting more emphasis on the deep passing game.

IF (big if) Orton can sack up and throw even a respectable deep ball, it will do absolute WONDERS for his short and intermediate game as well.

Still... is it enough?

I agree with you I think Orton will be much improved but it will be in an over all way. I think he will see defenses much much better and find the open receiver much better too. I know some will think me crazy but I believe Marshall being gone will help Orton's development because he will be more likely to spread the ball around. He kind of used Marshall as a crutch last season. The long ball will come available as a collective result of the above improvements.

elsid13
05-19-2010, 05:13 PM
I already posted his numbers here. Most of his "best" statistical seasons were early in his career.

http://www.nfl.com/players/jimplunkett/profile?id=PLU604056

Forget his numbers, he was so bad in four years in NE they drafted his replacement- Gorgon. He was consider a bust after those years before he ended up in Oakland.

Cito Pelon
05-19-2010, 05:15 PM
I think he's going to improve a lot more than slightly, but I'm not certain it will be enough.

My main complaint with him last season was his lack of balls/arm to go deep. Apparently Josh saw that too which is why he said the other day they're putting more emphasis on the deep passing game.

IF (big if) Orton can sack up and throw even a respectable deep ball, it will do absolute WONDERS for his short and intermediate game as well.

Still... is it enough?

If Orton gets more into a rhythm with the downfield attack, sure, that's enough.

Seems to me it's a matter of getting the passing attack in rhythm, better consistency. Orton had his moments in '09 where the passing attack was really clicking. Of course, most of them came when the opposing D was playing soft zones.

The problem I saw last year was he was way too tentative recognizing where his receivers were gonna be open intermediate/deep middle and getting the ball out to them on time. He hesitated a heartbeat too long almost every time. Very seldom did the passing attack seem to be totally in rhythm. As you said, if Orton can hit on the longer patterns more often that opens up the short passing game and gets the O into a rhythm.

We'll just have to wait and see. Orton isn't gonna give up the starting job easily, he knows where he has to improve.

Drek
05-19-2010, 07:57 PM
I think he's going to improve a lot more than slightly, but I'm not certain it will be enough.

My main complaint with him last season was his lack of balls/arm to go deep. Apparently Josh saw that too which is why he said the other day they're putting more emphasis on the deep passing game.

IF (big if) Orton can sack up and throw even a respectable deep ball, it will do absolute WONDERS for his short and intermediate game as well.

Still... is it enough?

I doubt it.

I've said the same thing on here before actually. Orton is a good QB with the potential to be very good, but he's a real long shot to be great.

When we're in a division that requires you to beat Peyton Manning and/or Tom Brady to make any real noise, with guys like Palmer, Flacco, Rivers, etc. also in the mix you don't get by with "very good" at the QB position unless the rest of your team is great.

That is why we have Tebow. He's a shot at greatness, and in the package of a unique skill set that could really shake up how the league tries to address him.

Orton is good enough to give us a shot at the playoffs with the team we've got now. If he makes the strides I'm expecting out of him he'll make us good enough to consistently make a playoff run and get handed an early exit from real elite QBs. That still doesn't realize our end goal of winning titles.

This is also why Quinn is here. He's a worthwhile middle man to protect us from having to start Tebow too early in year one, a solid option for stop gap if Tebow isn't ready by year two, and at the same time he's something of a wild card bet on greatness himself. He's exactly what we needed for a #2 QB on this team.

Maybe the roll of the dice on Quinn is going to surprisingly pay off and he'll perform out of the gates and take Orton's job, but I wouldn't bet on it. Its a biased battle in favor of the incumbent, so Quinn can't just play a little better, he needs to destroy Orton in camp and pre-season so blatantly that no one on the team has even second thoughts about it.

The Moops
05-19-2010, 08:12 PM
I admire Kiszla, but I don't trust him to name the Broncos starting QB . . . especially not Brady Quinn . . . the guy's dream job was to QB the Browns and he couldn't even hold onto that!

FireFly
05-19-2010, 08:53 PM
Sounds like I'm in the minority, but I don't think we'd win more games with Orton than Quinn.

I think we'd win a very similar amount with either of them this year. IMO we'd lose games because we started Tebow that we could otherwise win but for my money, the other 2 are a push and Brandstater will be cut - sadly. (Won't make it to PS)

Also, Quinn wasn't AWFUL at the browns. He showed flashes.

Hamrob
05-20-2010, 09:28 AM
If our running game is improved and our defense plays well...then we will win despite Orton.

It's when either of those other 2 phases of the game break down...that we have to worry about Orton.

I'd like to see what Quinn can do. I really don't care how good Orton can be...he's not going to be a Broncos for very long anyway!