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View Full Version : Kiszla: No reason to wait for Broncos' McDaniels to succeed


montrose
05-16-2010, 08:20 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/kiszla/ci_15095130

Interesting piece, Kiz admits that he likes McDaniels and he sees the Broncos coach sharing some of the same traits that many great coaches had, also points at some similarities between McDaniels and Shanahan that McDaniels is criticized for.

BroncoBuff
05-16-2010, 08:31 PM
Anything less than winning the AFC West this year must be considered a failure by the Broncos.

What a douche ... first he says he likes Josh, so now wtf is that?

Broncos4Life
05-16-2010, 08:40 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/kiszla/ci_15095130

Interesting piece, Kiz admits that he likes McDaniels and he sees the Broncos coach sharing some of the same traits that many great coaches had, also points at some similarities between McDaniels and Shanahan that McDaniels is criticized for.

So interesting you didnt post it....

montrose
05-16-2010, 08:44 PM
So interesting you didnt post it....

I thought Taco changed the rules to where we weren't supposed to post full articles and rather summarize them.

montrose
05-16-2010, 08:44 PM
What a douche ... first he says he likes Josh, so now wtf is that?

Huh? I'm confused Casey.

theAPAOps5
05-16-2010, 08:54 PM
I thought Taco changed the rules to where we weren't supposed to post full articles and rather summarize them.

He did but nobody follows the rules here.

BroncoBuff
05-16-2010, 09:02 PM
I'm confused Casey.

Not surprised.

(couldn't resist ;D)

He says he likes Josh and expects big things, then throws an over-the-top expectation on him.

BroncoBuff
05-16-2010, 09:03 PM
Oh, now I get it ... you think winning the division is a reasonable expectation.

No way. Watch when the prediction come out ... we'll be consensus 2nd or 3rd.

Popps
05-16-2010, 09:08 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/kiszla/ci_15095130

Interesting piece, Kiz admits that he likes McDaniels and he sees the Broncos coach sharing some of the same traits that many great coaches had, also points at some similarities between McDaniels and Shanahan that McDaniels is criticized for.

Wow, anyone you guys know been beating that concept to death around this forum for the last year?

As usual, it always takes the mainstream media a little longer to catch on.

strafen
05-16-2010, 09:08 PM
Of all moves Mcdaniels made so far, I'm pretty happy with the Tebow pick.

On paper he's made some nice moves bringing what I feel are good players on the DL; at least for the next two years. I'll be happier if he can add some youth via the draft to build our DL for the future.
That said, yeah, this is his year. Hardly anybody's left from the Shanahan era from the offense standpoint. This is McDaniels' team no doubt.

I said this year is his year. He's not rebuilding, he seems to be reloading. Adding vets and a few draft picks here and there, dictates that.

I'm looking forward to this season. I'd like to see a fair battle for the QB position.
I want the best guy to truly get a fair shot to win the job regardless of his place in the depth chart...

Zoobie
05-16-2010, 09:16 PM
Oh, now I get it ... you think winning the division is a reasonable expectation.

No way. Watch when the prediction come out ... we'll be consensus 2nd or 3rd.

Right, because columnists and forum goers are so accurate at predicting ANYTHING in professional sports.

Bob's your Information Minister
05-16-2010, 09:20 PM
It would be pretty funny if you guys missed the playoffs for the fifth straight year.

strafen
05-16-2010, 09:22 PM
It would be pretty funny if you guys missed the playoffs for the fifth straight year.No with Tebow at the helm we won't... tsk tsk

BroncoBuff
05-16-2010, 09:23 PM
Right, because columnists and forum goers are so accurate at predicting ANYTHING in professional sports.

Well, predicting us to win the division is an out of the box longshot. It really is.

montrose
05-16-2010, 09:23 PM
He says he likes Josh and expects big things, then throws an over-the-top expectation on him.

Oh, now I get it ... you think winning the division is a reasonable expectation.

No way. Watch when the prediction come out ... we'll be consensus 2nd or 3rd.

I think it's a more than reasonable expectation. Why should I care what the predictions say? How many of those had the Jets making the AFC Title Game? Or the Ravens before that? Now you know I'm a huge McD fan, but last years 8-8 season was a failure to me and if the team doesn't win the division this year I will also consider it a dissapointment. The Broncos are marching out what should be the deepest 53-man roster since 2005 with a squad full of team-first players that are smart, tough and fit well into this system. In their second year of this system with a solid team approach led by good teachers on the coaching staff and now devoid of distractions and malcontents - I will certainly consider this season a dissapointment if the this group of 53 men doesn't win the division, a failure if they miss the playoffs.

BroncoBuff
05-16-2010, 09:30 PM
I think it's a more than reasonable expectation.
Wow, optimism is like a reflex with you. I like that, actually (though it's a bit predictable).

Okay, our O-line is in shambles and we lost Marshall and Scheffler, together about 1/3 or more of our offense. On defense, the D-line has been upgraded spectacularly, no doubt ... but the LBs have regressed some and the secondary is a year older, and none of the starters can possibly be expected to improve at this stage of their careers (though the pass rush might improve them).

Plus we finished '09 as perhaps the worst team in the league.

I'm fine with optimism, but I think there has to be limits imposed by reality.

Zoobie
05-16-2010, 09:32 PM
Well, predicting us to win the division is an out of the box longshot. It really is.

Not really if our defense can hold up a whole season and our running game improves, which it should. We won 8 games last year with possibly the toughest schedule in the NFL. Alot of players now have a year in the system, and from the looks of things we have a much easier schedule this season.

Zoobie
05-16-2010, 09:35 PM
Wow, optimism is like a reflex with you. I like that, actually (though it's a bit predictable).

Okay, our O-line is in shambles and we lost Marshall and Scheffler, together about 1/3 or more of our offense. On defense, the D-line has been upgraded spectacularly, no doubt ... but the LBs have regressed some and the secondary is a year older, and none of the starters can possibly be expected to improve at this stage of their careers (though the pass rush might improve them).

Plus we finished '09 as perhaps the worst team in the league.

I'm fine with optimism, but I think there has to be limits imposed by reality.

How have our LBs regressed? Losing Davis? Please. Ayers has a full year under his belt, and we added a veteran 34 backer in Ayodele.

BroncoBuff
05-16-2010, 09:36 PM
Not really if our defense can hold up a whole season and our running game improves, which it should. We won 8 games last year with possibly the toughest schedule in the NFL. Alot of players now have a year in the system, and from the looks of things we have a much easier schedule this season.

Can't be much "easier" than finishing with the putrid Raiders and chefs at home.

Again, I love positivity, but reality has a way of kicking you in the nads, especially when you ignore it.

BroncoBuff
05-16-2010, 09:38 PM
How have our LBs regressed? Losing Davis? Please. Ayers has a full year under his belt, and we added a veteran 34 backer in Ayodele.

You're relying on Ayers? I'm bullish on him too, but pretending he's going to improve the LB corps is quite a reach. I suppose he might, but there's very little evidence to lead to such a conclusion just yet.

Zoobie
05-16-2010, 09:40 PM
Can't be much "easier" than finishing with the putrid Raiders and chefs at home.

Again, I love positivity, but reality has a way of kicking you in the nads, especially when you ignore it.

Do yourself a favor and compare schedules from this year and last. I'm not saying we are championship contenders, because we aren't yet.

strafen
05-16-2010, 09:40 PM
Wow, optimism is like a reflex with you. I like that, actually (though it's a bit predictable).

Okay, our O-line is in shambles and we lost Marshall and Scheffler, together about 1/3 or more of our offense. On defense, the D-line has been upgraded spectacularly, no doubt ... but the LBs have regressed some and the secondary is a year older, and none of the starters can possibly be expected to improve at this stage of their careers (though the pass rush might improve them).

Plus we finished '09 as perhaps the worst team in the league.

I'm fine with optimism, but I think there has to be limits imposed by reality.

I agree. Our OL needs to be solidified. New scheme, new players, good players hurt, etc...
Our defense is also suspect like you've already said. The LB's and secondary would have been something needed to be addressed in the draft, so that's what we've got to work with. The upside is that having a great DL potential with the new players brought in, could make the LB's and secondary's job easier.
As far as losing Marshall and Scheffler; two prominent members of our offense at one point or another, it will only be an issue if Orton remains our QB, in my opinion...

One more thing I'm concerned with about our defense.
Maybe somebody knows the answer...
Does Martindale (sp?) have any experience in the 4-3 defense?
It seems to me he's only worked on 3-4 defenses in his career, no?

SoCalBronco
05-16-2010, 09:41 PM
I think it's a more than reasonable expectation. Why should I care what the predictions say? How many of those had the Jets making the AFC Title Game? Or the Ravens before that? Now you know I'm a huge McD fan, but last years 8-8 season was a failure to me and if the team doesn't win the division this year I will also consider it a dissapointment. The Broncos are marching out what should be the deepest 53-man roster since 2005 with a squad full of team-first players that are smart, tough and fit well into this system. In their second year of this system with a solid team approach led by good teachers on the coaching staff and now devoid of distractions and malcontents - I will certainly consider this season a dissapointment if the this group of 53 men doesn't win the division, a failure if they miss the playoffs.

I am hoping for 9 or 10 wins. Another year of 8 wins would be a very slight disappointment for me, but not a great one. Josh is still in the phase where most of the expected key personnel are really young. I would not be in favor of their firing unless their is a disaster of biblical proportions this year unrelated to injury issues. Two years of roughly .500 ball is not horribly bad. It's not great and its below expectation, but some reasonable allowance must be made for transition costs. Another year of mediocrity is not enough to justify a firing, IMO, nor would it be a "failure". We are a middle of the pack team in the midst of restructuring lineups and philosophies...I don't think we have the realistic right to expect major things left and right. I think its fair to expect not being a bad team, but I don't think you can expect to be a playoff team. It's a reasonable thing to hope for...we're not far away, we can do it, but I don't have it as a baseline expectation. I think its only fair to the staff that they get a chance to show us what the offense looks like when its replete with McD's key personnel (Tebow, Moreno, Decker, Thomas etc.) actually starting or in a position where they can be reasonably expected to start (ie not their rookie years), so its understandable if we don't transform into an 11-5 team in year 2. Like I said above...a nice goal to have is 9-10 wins and if we're still stuck at 8, its not a disaster or a failure. It's just slightly behind schedule.

BroncoBuff
05-16-2010, 09:43 PM
Do yourself a favor and compare schedules from this year and last. I'm not saying we are championship contenders, because we aren't yet.

I'm not denying that ... it just happens strength of schedule is not a favorite stat of mine.

And I'm thinking you forgot the train wreck we were as the season wound down ???

Zoobie
05-16-2010, 09:44 PM
You're relying on Ayers? I'm bullish on him too, but pretending he's going to improve the LB corps is quite a reach. I suppose he might, but there's very little evidence to lead to such a conclusion just yet.

I'm not saying he is a superstar, i'm saying there is nothing that leads me to believe this unit is regressing when we didn't lose any quality players and Ayers, DJ, Doom, and Woodyard all now have a year in the 34 defense, it doesn't seem logical to me.

theAPAOps5
05-16-2010, 09:46 PM
Wow, optimism is like a reflex with you. I like that, actually (though it's a bit predictable).

Okay, our O-line is in shambles and we lost Marshall and Scheffler, together about 1/3 or more of our offense. On defense, the D-line has been upgraded spectacularly, no doubt ... but the LBs have regressed some and the secondary is a year older, and none of the starters can possibly be expected to improve at this stage of their careers (though the pass rush might improve them).

Plus we finished '09 as perhaps the worst team in the league.

I'm fine with optimism, but I think there has to be limits imposed by reality.

Almost as predictable as you pining over a mediocre QB who won't live up to his ability. You know its easy for you to call out others but when someone calls you out you don't take it too well.

Montrose likes McD and likes what he has done. Its not blind faith its called buying into what McD is doing. Its the same as your asinine belief that Cutler is a franchise QB. Both opinions are based on a belief that hasn't been totally substantiated by facts.

BroncoBuff
05-16-2010, 09:49 PM
I'm not saying he is a superstar, i'm saying there is nothing that leads me to believe this unit is regressing when we didn't lose any quality players and Ayers, DJ, Doom, and Woodyard all now have a year in the 34 defense, it doesn't seem logical to me.

No no ... I never said the defense will regress, in fact it will be better because of the spectacular (as I put it) D-line upgrades.

But Andra was a real leader and he knew the defense ... I suppose Ayodele might be good, but at this point he's just a journeyman, and just a year or two younger than Andra.

Zoobie
05-16-2010, 09:49 PM
I'm not denying that ... it just happens strength of schedule is not a favorite stat of mine.

And I'm thinking you forgot the train wreck we were as the season wound down ???

I believe with another year in the system and some more consistent play there is nothing that leads me to believe we can't win more than 8 games, which could very well win the division considering 9 wins has done it for San Diego 2 of the last 4 years if i'm not mistaken.

BroncoBuff
05-16-2010, 09:50 PM
Almost as predictable as you pining over a mediocre QB who won't live up to his ability.

Stale, dude.

Get some new material.

theAPAOps5
05-16-2010, 09:54 PM
Stale, dude.

Get some new material.

Like I said you sure can call out others but when people check you on it all you do is act like a tool.

Take your own advice and get something new. So its okay to call out Montrose for his continued faith in McD but when someone checks you on the same trait you have you can't handle it?

Get some new material buddy its old.

Zoobie
05-16-2010, 09:55 PM
No no ... I never said the defense will regress, in fact it will be better because of the spectacular (as I put it) D-line upgrades.

But Andra was a real leader and he knew the defense ... I suppose Ayodele might be good, but at this point he's just a journeyman, and just a year or two younger than Andra.

Andra was/is a journeyman as well, and his play and leadership faded down the stretch as much as anyone else on the team. Also, Akin has been a very solid, hardworking player his entire career as well as productive in many roles. I expect his experience and versatility to add a good amount of depth at the ILB.

montrose
05-16-2010, 09:58 PM
Wow, optimism is like a reflex with you. I like that, actually (though it's a bit predictable).

Here's the funny thing Casey, I was an extreme pessimist until this regime took over. I routinely predicted the Broncos to be awful during the 06-08 seasons. Last season I was the only person I could find that thought Oakland would come in and beat us at Invesco and I was suprised we weren't beaten by the Eagles by a wider margin. I just think that SD is going to take a little dip and that the Broncos can win this division with 9-10 wins (just 1-2 more) this season.

Okay, our O-line is in shambles and we lost Marshall and Scheffler, together about 1/3 or more of our offense. On defense, the D-line has been upgraded spectacularly, no doubt ... but the LBs have regressed some and the secondary is a year older, and none of the starters can possibly be expected to improve at this stage of their careers (though the pass rush might improve them).

The OL is far and away my biggest fear at this point but I believe the depth and ditching of the zone scheme should help. I believe the WR depth is stronger than it was a season ago and I like the additions to the 53-man roster at LB and in the secondary as well. More importantly than all, I think we'll see a more coheisive team that plays well together and moves in the same direction. To me, top talent of a few players is overrated and talent of 1-53 is underrated.

Again, I think the team can win 9-10 games which should be enough to win a weak AFC West. I can't say the same for my Rockies who despite everyone thinking with the return of their injured players they'll make the playoffs. I also think the Nuggets are as dead as can be and the Avs are not nearly as good a young team as people think. Meanwhile I've already succumbed to Obama being a failure even though I was hoping he could help turn the country around. My point here is that I think the Broncos have a chance to be good... because I think they have a chance to be good. It doesn't have anything to do with my being a fan of the team because I tend to be a glass-half-empty guy.

BroncoBuff
05-16-2010, 10:02 PM
Like I said you sure can call out others but when people check you on it all you do is act like a tool.

Take your own advice and get something new. So its okay to call out Montrose for his continued faith in McD but when someone checks you on the same trait you have you can't handle it?

Not "calling out" anybody ... just stating (what should be) consensus facts. Facts like the D-line is the only unit that has improved this off-season (again, a "spectacular" improvement). But the O-line is in utter shambles, we lost B-Marsh, and we appear to be relying on Buckhalter maybe even more than last year ... which based on his history is a bad idea.

Sorry if all this screws with your homer instincts ... but again, reality has a mind all its own.

I'm not saying we can't go 13-3, I hope we will. But there's little if any evidence to support such a conclusion.



Get some new material buddy its old.

I said get some new material, not take mine.

theAPAOps5
05-16-2010, 10:04 PM
Sure thing Pot or should I call you Kettle? It makes no difference to me a hypocrite is just that, a hypocrite. I never said the team would go 13-3 all I am doing is saying someone who posts the stuff you do should be the last one calling out Montrose for his "predictability".

Now go and get working on that new material.

bronco militia
05-16-2010, 10:05 PM
What a douche ... first he says he likes Josh, so now wtf is that?

the reality of coaching the Denver Broncos

SoCalBronco
05-16-2010, 10:08 PM
It should be an interesting year.

theAPAOps5
05-16-2010, 10:12 PM
I agree SoCal I think in reality the team goes 9-7 which is an improvement but nothing to write home about.

With McD when isn't an interesting year!

BroncoBuff
05-16-2010, 10:15 PM
The OL is far and away my biggest fear at this point but I believe the depth and ditching of the zone scheme should help.
Okay, not gonna "call anybody out," just gonna play devil's advocate:

Not sure how ditching ZBS will make up for the very real possibility we will start three or even four R/2nd year O-linemen, all guys whove never seen a down in the league. That line is in very bad shape, as bad as any O-line I can recall headed into camp. And I say that despite being hugely bullish on JD Walton.


I believe the WR depth is stronger than it was a season ago
Really? Based upon ... ?

I might point out that Gaffney is a starter now, which depletes the depth considerably.


I like the additions to the 53-man roster at LB and in the secondary as well.
I'll admit I had forgotten about Ayodele when I said the LBs would "regress some." Still, Haggan starting at SILB seems like a real learning curve waiting to happen.

As far as secondary, I'll grant you the nickel and dime personnel might be better this year. And because of the pass rush, the starters might be "better" too.


More importantly than all, I think we'll see a more coheisive team that plays well together and moves in the same direction.
Sounds like happy-talk to me, but I can see where some of it might make sense.



Again, I think the team can win 9-10 games which should be enough to win a weak AFC West.
I suppose that's not too huge a stretch. But it is something of a stretch.


Meanwhile I've already succumbed to Obama being a failure even though I was hoping he could help turn the country around.

Whaaaa?!?! :redpunch:

SoCalBronco
05-16-2010, 10:20 PM
I agree SoCal I think in reality the team goes 9-7 which is an improvement but nothing to write home about.

With McD when isn't an interesting year!

9-7 would be acceptable to me. They are still in transition and the vast majority of the key personnel (on offense) are either rookies or 2nd year players. If they can put together a season slightly above .500 while those guys are still in the early stages of development that would be a positive.

strafen
05-16-2010, 10:24 PM
9-7 would be acceptable to me. They are still in transition and the vast majority of the key personnel (on offense) are either rookies or 2nd year players. If they can put together a season slightly above .500 while those guys are still in the early stages of development that would be a positive.I think we have enough players to show better than 2 wins over the last 3 years.
11-5 or bust!
This year'a schedule is not as tough. I don't think Mcdaniels is thinking 9-7, he's more into winning now. 9-7 will reflect badly on him...

theAPAOps5
05-16-2010, 10:26 PM
I think we have enough players to show better than 2 wins over the last 3 years.
11-5 or bust!
This year'a schedule is not as tough. I don't think Mcdaniels is thinking 9-7, he's more into winning now. 9-7 will reflect badly on him...

I hope to God McD isn't thinking 9-7, no coach should be thinking anything other 19-0 every year.

But with recent history, the injury to Clady and the question marks that remain 9-7 is reasonable expectation until proven otherwise.

fdf
05-16-2010, 10:49 PM
I'm not denying that ... it just happens strength of schedule is not a favorite stat of mine.

And I'm thinking you forgot the train wreck we were as the season wound down ???

We've been a train wreck at the end of the last several seasons. And we still pretty much go 8-8 the next year. Don't understand it. New coach, new schemes, mostly new personnel and exactly the same problem. Maybe it's the altitude.

montrose
05-16-2010, 11:02 PM
Not sure how ditching ZBS will make up for the very real possibility we will start three or even four R/2nd year O-linemen, all guys whove never seen a down in the league. That line is in very bad shape, as bad as any O-line I can recall headed into camp. And I say that despite being hugely bullish on JD Walton.

I agree that the OL is a major concern. I think ditching the ZBS will help for a two main reasons 1) the personnel will actually fit the system they're playing; 2) I don't think you'll see a ZBS team win a Super Bowl again (98 Broncos were the last) in a long time. Clady's injury is a huge concern but Beadles and Williams are a big upgrade over Polumbus while a used diaper would be better than Hamilton and Wiegmann - let alone Beadles and Walton. Again, I think the OL is a major, major concern - by far the team's weakest unit. With that, I have a feeling the OL will be better than last year.

Really? Based upon ... ?

I might point out that Gaffney is a starter now, which depletes the depth considerably.

Well Gaffney was a starter last year, as was Royal - so those two remain in their starting positions. The third position will likely be occupied by Lloyd during camp but I don't think anyone would be suprised if Thomas or Decker takes that before too long. Right now, Stokley and McKinley may both find themselves on the outside looking in - and they were in last year's unit.

I'll admit I had forgotten about Ayodele when I said the LBs would "regress some." Still, Haggan starting at SILB seems like a real learning curve waiting to happen.

Haggan was an ILB before an OLB so it shouldn't be terrible, also keep in mind that the SILB in the 3-4 is only on the field on 1st downs and very obvious running situations. I'm hoping you'll see Woodyard improve in covering TEs in the nickel while DJ will be playing the same position two years in a row for the first time in a half-decade. The major question mark will be Ayers, I thought he was improving late in the year and he would seem to bring more of a pass rush threat than Haggan. I'd also expect Moss to be gone this year while Larsen may make the squad as a STer and FB - and be the last LB on the unit. Again, improved depth.

As far as secondary, I'll grant you the nickel and dime personnel might be better this year. And because of the pass rush, the starters might be "better" too.

From what I've read on Nate Jones, he has a very solid skillset for the nickel which we severely lacked last year. You and I are both big fans of Alphonso and I think a renewed focus on playing him man-to-man outside will bring benefits. Don't forget Perrish Cox and another years experience with McBath and Bruton. Speaking of Cox, he may help the ST unit continue to get better.

Sounds like happy-talk to me, but I can see where some of it might make sense.

Ask the Cowboys, Chargers and other "mega talented" teams if working together as a team is just happy talk. The best teams are made of talented players that play well together as a team. Just look at the Saints.

I suppose that's not too huge a stretch. But it is something of a stretch.

Each year, teams win games they're not supposed to and lose game they're supposed to win. The '09 Broncos beat the Cowboys, Patriots and Chargers but lost to the Redskins, Raiders and Chiefs. Last year's team was 6-0 before McDaniels made one of (if not the #1) biggest blunders I have ever seen a coach make in taking a team playing 1st class, well-timed football and sending them home for the week - killing their momentum and their season. I'm banking that he won't make that mistake again and this team can compete to win 9-10 games in a weak AFC West.

Whaaaa?!?! :redpunch:

Sorry man, maybe it's my pessimistic attitude but I don't see how that ship gets turned around.

Circle Orange
05-16-2010, 11:05 PM
I thought Taco changed the rules to where we weren't supposed to post full articles and rather summarize them.

scribbling the computer screen in crayon takes too long. Ha!

NFLBRONCO
05-17-2010, 12:37 AM
I want to win SB what fan doesn't. I do understand 8 wins is also likely for awhile. We have alot of holes to fill no solution at QB yet. Inexperienced players on offense. DL looks good on paper but, can it hold up good or not is the question we still might need huge upgrades there. I like what we are doing but, its a few seasons more of rebuilding. Even with the schedule being easy this year 10 wins for this team is a reach.

Hamrob
05-17-2010, 06:01 AM
I said that we should have made the playoffs last year...before the season began. We should have made the playoffs when it was all said and done. We needed better coaching down the stretch.

I've said all along, if we don't make the playoffs this year, McDaniels could be fired.

He's the guy who had to wipe the slate clean with Shanny guys and start over. He's been very brash about what he's done. Now it's time to put up or shut up.

I think the only major loss from last year was Marshall. Yeah, we like Nolan...but, he didn't stopus from going 2-8 down the stretch. We've solidified our Dline, improved our Oline, given our star rookie RB a year to mature, drafted 2 stud WR's and improved our QB situation. Add to that, a schedule that is much easier than last years schedule.

This team should be in the playoffs. I'm not bashing on McDaniels, he's grown on me. But, nobody gets a free pass. He took over an 8-8 team. Bowlen gave him a mulligan on his first year (8-8). This year he needs to pay Bowlen back!

Hamrob
05-17-2010, 06:04 AM
9-7 would be acceptable to me. They are still in transition and the vast majority of the key personnel (on offense) are either rookies or 2nd year players. If they can put together a season slightly above .500 while those guys are still in the early stages of development that would be a positive.9-7 is not good enough. The floor for McDaniels and this team is 10-6 and the Playoffs. If not, then McDaniels will be labled a failure!

colonelbeef
05-17-2010, 06:15 AM
Wow, anyone you guys know been beating that concept to death around this forum for the last year?

As usual, it always takes the mainstream media a little longer to catch on.

1. Mike Shanahan wouldn't have been caught dead with the fist pumping embarrassment on national tv after 6-0 en route to 8-8.

2. Mike Shanahan knows that in the NFL you have to get along with both agreeable and disagreeable personalities in order to field a competitive team. McDaniels is in the process of learning this harsh reality, he obviously was sheltered by Belichick and Brady away from the Randy Mosses and Richard Seymours of the world.

They are both prolific offensively-minded coaches with an unbridled work ethic. The similarities end there.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-17-2010, 06:22 AM
1. Mike Shanahan wouldn't have been caught dead with the fist pumping embarrassment on national tv after 6-0 en route to 8-8.

2. Mike Shanahan knows that in the NFL you have to get along with both agreeable and disagreeable personalities in order to field a competitive team. McDaniels is in the process of learning this harsh reality, he obviously was sheltered by Belichick and Brady away from the Randy Mosses and Richard Seymours of the world.

They are both prolific offensively-minded coaches with an unbridled work ethic. The similarities end there.

Really? Like Kennison and IHOP-boy? What about Dale Carter?

You're right. Shanahan always got along with his divisive personalities. Get a grip.

meangene
05-17-2010, 06:38 AM
I am hoping for 9 or 10 wins. Another year of 8 wins would be a very slight disappointment for me, but not a great one. Josh is still in the phase where most of the expected key personnel are really young. I would not be in favor of their firing unless their is a disaster of biblical proportions this year unrelated to injury issues. Two years of roughly .500 ball is not horribly bad. It's not great and its below expectation, but some reasonable allowance must be made for transition costs. Another year of mediocrity is not enough to justify a firing, IMO, nor would it be a "failure". We are a middle of the pack team in the midst of restructuring lineups and philosophies...I don't think we have the realistic right to expect major things left and right. I think its fair to expect not being a bad team, but I don't think you can expect to be a playoff team. It's a reasonable thing to hope for...we're not far away, we can do it, but I don't have it as a baseline expectation. I think its only fair to the staff that they get a chance to show us what the offense looks like when its replete with McD's key personnel (Tebow, Moreno, Decker, Thomas etc.) actually starting or in a position where they can be reasonably expected to start (ie not their rookie years), so its understandable if we don't transform into an 11-5 team in year 2. Like I said above...a nice goal to have is 9-10 wins and if we're still stuck at 8, its not a disaster or a failure. It's just slightly behind schedule.

A very well-reasoned post in response to the "win the division or else" in regard to the implications of the Kizla article. I think Josh has a much longer leash than many seem to think. That having been said, I would consider not making the playoffs a disappointment.

bowtown
05-17-2010, 06:59 AM
I just wish people would stop referring to Scheffler as a major piece of our offense.

Traveler
05-17-2010, 07:03 AM
The '09 Broncos beat the Cowboys, Patriots and Chargers but lost to the Redskins, Raiders and Chiefs. Last year's team was 6-0 before McDaniels made one of (if not the #1) biggest blunders I have ever seen a coach make in taking a team playing 1st class, well-timed football and sending them home for the week - killing their momentum and their season. I'm banking that he won't make that mistake again and this team can compete to win 9-10 games in a weak AFC West.


What blunder? Please refresh my memory.
:thought:


Not sure what you are referencing highlighted in bold above. Wasn't that our bye week anyway?

The Baltimore game is what started our downslide IMO. They designed the blueprint for shutting down our offense and the subsequent teams we played the remainder of the year followed suit.

Which again begs my question. What blunder?

Traveler
05-17-2010, 07:04 AM
I just wish people would stop referring to Scheffler as a major piece of our offense.

Or at least state that it was under Shanahan that he had a more substantial role- when healthy.

Steve Sewell
05-17-2010, 07:30 AM
You're relying on Ayers? I'm bullish on him too, but pretending he's going to improve the LB corps is quite a reach. I suppose he might, but there's very little evidence to lead to such a conclusion just yet.

BroncoBuff...you have obviously forgotten that Tim Tebow is a Bronco. :pimp:

theAPAOps5
05-17-2010, 07:37 AM
BroncoBuff...you have obviously forgotten that Tim Tebow is a Bronco. :pimp:

LOL nice!

Steve Sewell
05-17-2010, 07:39 AM
9-7 would be acceptable to me. They are still in transition and the vast majority of the key personnel (on offense) are either rookies or 2nd year players. If they can put together a season slightly above .500 while those guys are still in the early stages of development that would be a positive.

Agreed. Also, anyone thinking that McD's job security could be in jeopardy if this year isn't a breakout season are forgetting who the Broncos owner is. McD will get plenty of time to get the ship pointed in the right direction. This team isn't even close to the point where they can be a SB contender. They need to develop some of the younger players and get a handle on the starting QB position before that can be said.

Steve Sewell
05-17-2010, 07:42 AM
We've been a train wreck at the end of the last several seasons. And we still pretty much go 8-8 the next year. Don't understand it. New coach, new schemes, mostly new personnel and exactly the same problem. Maybe it's the altitude.

Its mainly been "smallish o-line" and "smallish and very average d-line" that have been the culprits in recent late season collapses. Those things are being corrected starting this year. I think people are forgetting that the d-line guys we got for last season were basically throw aways and journeymen.

montrose
05-17-2010, 08:35 AM
What blunder? Please refresh my memory.
:thought:


Not sure what you are referencing highlighted in bold above. Wasn't that our bye week anyway?

The Baltimore game is what started our downslide IMO. They designed the blueprint for shutting down our offense and the subsequent teams we played the remainder of the year followed suit.

Which again begs my question. What blunder?

It was the bye week. McDaniels "rewarded" the team for its 6-0 start by letting them go home for over a week as they didn't reconveine until the Wednesday before the Ravens game. In the meantime, the Ravens were also on a bye week and having lost 3 in a row, they were practicing hard every day for a game that meant their season. It was an astronomical blunder, as the team that was playing so well in a timing-based scheme never recovered. McDaniels even admitted (paraphrasing) on his CBS4 show that it was the biggest "lesson" he learned in his rookie season as a coach.

I firmly believe that if the team doesn't take that week and a half off and instead, make gets a day off or practices the bye week without pads - the late season collapse never happens.

Popps
05-17-2010, 09:26 AM
They are both prolific offensively-minded coaches with an unbridled work ethic. The similarities end there.

Oh, that's all? You mean... the core of their work ethic and background is exactly the same? Wow, only that? Just that little thing?

It goes way beyond that, btw. The way they turned over the roster was similar. The way they value players was similar. (In each respective start with the team.) The way they make (made) moves, regardless of popular opinion is similar.

How about the fact that they both came from championship teams and learned how to win from coaching greats? How about the fact that they were both respectively young when they took over?

Oh, and you think McDaniels pumping his fist is a big deal? How about Shanahan instructing Elvis Grbac to fire a ball at Al Davis' head? You think Shanahan wouldn't have pushed his own mother down a flight of stairs to win a game?


Yea, so.... aside from basically every possible measurable and immeasurable thing, they're hardly alike at all.


::)

Popps
05-17-2010, 09:37 AM
I firmly believe that if the team doesn't take that week and a half off and instead, make gets a day off or practices the bye week without pads - the late season collapse never happens.

Maybe, but we were due to come back to earth. We played over our heads the first half, and then hit a tougher stretch of schedule the 2nd half... and did it without our starting QB for most of 2 games.

All that combined put us into a funk we couldn't recover from.

Of course, as we saw against the Raiders... we just needed more talent. I said it all season long. We can all try to pin it on one decision, or one injury... but we really just need(ed) more talent.

Hopefully the upgrades we've made this offseason put us into playoff contention. Lots of questions to be answered, but it's going to be a fun season.

enjolras
05-17-2010, 09:50 AM
It was the bye week. McDaniels "rewarded" the team for its 6-0 start by letting them go home for over a week as they didn't reconveine until the Wednesday before the Ravens game. In the meantime, the Ravens were also on a bye week and having lost 3 in a row, they were practicing hard every day for a game that meant their season. It was an astronomical blunder, as the team that was playing so well in a timing-based scheme never recovered. McDaniels even admitted (paraphrasing) on his CBS4 show that it was the biggest "lesson" he learned in his rookie season as a coach.

I firmly believe that if the team doesn't take that week and a half off and instead, make gets a day off or practices the bye week without pads - the late season collapse never happens.

I disagree. Hell I couldn't disagree more. This team was going to falter. The Ravens didn't beat us because they practiced harder. They beat us because they exposed the fundamental weakness in our offense line. They stacked the middle and ran right over Hamilton and Wiegmann.

Before that the Broncos had mostly seen cover-2 and bump and run. The same defenses that where so effective against Cutler. That all changed with the Ravens. From then on it was aggressive blitz up the middle after aggressive blitz up the middle. Orton's ankle injury only compounded it later in the season.

Do I think sending the team home for the week was a good idea? Nope. I believe I even started a thread about exactly that when it happened. I thought the team lacked the maturity to handle that (here's looking at you B-Marsh).

That said, that hardly rises to the level of "colossal blunder" and it certainly didn't have a material effect on where last season ended up. This team was fundamentally flawed on both the offensive and defensive line. I knew it. McDaniels knew it. After the Ravens, everyone in the league knew it.

montrose
05-17-2010, 10:38 AM
Maybe, but we were due to come back to earth. We played over our heads the first half, and then hit a tougher stretch of schedule the 2nd half... and did it without our starting QB for most of 2 games.

All that combined put us into a funk we couldn't recover from.

Of course, as we saw against the Raiders... we just needed more talent. I said it all season long. We can all try to pin it on one decision, or one injury... but we really just need(ed) more talent.

Hopefully the upgrades we've made this offseason put us into playoff contention. Lots of questions to be answered, but it's going to be a fun season.

I do think the team was going to come back to Earth a bit, but nearly in the manner that they collapsed. Sure the team was devoid of talent, but the group was in such a rhythm and their demise fell in perfect sync with that week off - I simply believe that had it not occured, the group would've rattled off more wins.

I disagree. Hell I couldn't disagree more. This team was going to falter. The Ravens didn't beat us because they practiced harder. They beat us because they exposed the fundamental weakness in our offense line. They stacked the middle and ran right over Hamilton and Wiegmann.

Before that the Broncos had mostly seen cover-2 and bump and run. The same defenses that where so effective against Cutler. That all changed with the Ravens. From then on it was aggressive blitz up the middle after aggressive blitz up the middle. Orton's ankle injury only compounded it later in the season.

Do I think sending the team home for the week was a good idea? Nope. I believe I even started a thread about exactly that when it happened. I thought the team lacked the maturity to handle that (here's looking at you B-Marsh).

That said, that hardly rises to the level of "colossal blunder" and it certainly didn't have a material effect on where last season ended up. This team was fundamentally flawed on both the offensive and defensive line. I knew it. McDaniels knew it. After the Ravens, everyone in the league knew it.

All of the football aspects you listed are true, and I'm not saying the Broncos would've won the Super Bowl - but I'm convinced that if the team doesn't take over a week off and completely lose it's timing, we're not talking about a 2-8 finish. Every team has flaws and eventually some of the Broncos' would've been exploited - but there's absolutly no excuse for McDaniels making that huge of a mistake (and I'm a big McD fan). I'm amazed it's not discussed more, we'll never know how the 2009 Broncos would've finished if that mistake wasn't made - but I am confident the coach will never make it again.