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View Full Version : OT: Arizona governor bans state's schools from teaching Chicano Studies


Carmelo15
05-12-2010, 05:07 PM
Or any type of ethnic studies for that matter. There's no denying now that this woman is a racist. I already felt this way after she signed her radical immigration law. I'd like to see those of you who tried to rationalize that law to do the same for this one.

Posting from a mobile phone right now, link will be posted later. If someone else could get one up in the meantime that'd be great.

This is about a different law, not illegal immigration so as a former Chicano Studies major, I feel this deserves its own thread!

MrPeepers
05-12-2010, 05:10 PM
the class was developed by La Raza. Not allowed to teach public school courses that encourage anti-government education. not racist it's to discourage extremists from infiltrating public classrooms.

That's what it's really about.

atomicbloke
05-12-2010, 05:12 PM
Or any type of ethnic studies for that matter. There's no denying now that this woman is a racist. I already felt this way after she signed her radical immigration law. I'd like to see those of you who tried to rationalize that law to do the same for this one.

Posting from a mobile phone right now, link will be posted later. If someone else could get one up in the meantime that'd be great.

This is about a different law, not illegal immigration so as a former Chicano Studies major, I feel this deserves its own thread!

I actually read the bill. This is the exact wording.

A. A SCHOOL DISTRICT OR CHARTER SCHOOL IN THIS STATE SHALL NOT INCLUDE
IN ITS PROGRAM OF INSTRUCTION ANY COURSES OR CLASSES THAT INCLUDE ANY OF THE
FOLLOWING:
1. PROMOTE THE OVERTHROW OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.
2. PROMOTE RESENTMENT TOWARD A RACE OR CLASS OF PEOPLE.
3. ARE DESIGNED PRIMARILY FOR PUPILS OF A PARTICULAR ETHNIC GROUP.
4. ADVOCATE ETHNIC SOLIDARITY INSTEAD OF THE TREATMENT OF PUPILS AS
INDIVIDUALS.

It also goes on to say "3. COURSES OR CLASSES THAT INCLUDE THE HISTORY OF ANY ETHNIC GROUP AND THAT ARE OPEN TO ALL STUDENTS, UNLESS THE COURSE OR CLASS VIOLATES SUBSECTION A."

I really don't see anything wrong with this. No where does it "ban schools from teaching Chicano studies". At least the official language of the bill doesn't

And for the record, I am an unabashed liberal and have criticized the Arizona immigration law in the WRP forum.

But I don't see anything wrong in this bill. Its pretty much standard in every state, even extreme left ones like Oregon. I don't see why its an issue.

no-pseudo-fan
05-12-2010, 05:19 PM
:curtsey:I actually read the bill. This is the exact wording.

A. A SCHOOL DISTRICT OR CHARTER SCHOOL IN THIS STATE SHALL NOT INCLUDE
IN ITS PROGRAM OF INSTRUCTION ANY COURSES OR CLASSES THAT INCLUDE ANY OF THE
FOLLOWING:
1. PROMOTE THE OVERTHROW OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.
2. PROMOTE RESENTMENT TOWARD A RACE OR CLASS OF PEOPLE.
3. ARE DESIGNED PRIMARILY FOR PUPILS OF A PARTICULAR ETHNIC GROUP.
4. ADVOCATE ETHNIC SOLIDARITY INSTEAD OF THE TREATMENT OF PUPILS AS
INDIVIDUALS.

It also goes on to say "3. COURSES OR CLASSES THAT INCLUDE THE HISTORY OF ANY ETHNIC GROUP AND THAT ARE OPEN TO ALL STUDENTS, UNLESS THE COURSE OR CLASS VIOLATES SUBSECTION A."

I really don't see anything wrong with this. No where does it "ban schools from teaching Chicano studies". At least the official language of the bill doesn't

And for the record, I am an unabashed liberal and have criticized the Arizona immigration law in the WRP forum.

But I don't see anything wrong in this bill. Its pretty much standard in every state, even extreme left ones like Oregon. I don't see why its an issue.

I would fight this law because it is very poorly worded.

I would say that:

2. PROMOTE RESENTMENT TOWARD A RACE OR CLASS OF PEOPLE.

Would pretty much make teaching US History illegal.

Archer81
05-12-2010, 05:35 PM
Or any type of ethnic studies for that matter. There's no denying now that this woman is a racist. I already felt this way after she signed her radical immigration law. I'd like to see those of you who tried to rationalize that law to do the same for this one.

Posting from a mobile phone right now, link will be posted later. If someone else could get one up in the meantime that'd be great.

This is about a different law, not illegal immigration so as a former Chicano Studies major, I feel this deserves its own thread!


It is EXACTLY the same as federal law. They cut and pasted from federal statutes to craft the law...

Reality. It is your friend.

:Broncos:

sixtimeseight
05-12-2010, 05:44 PM
the class was developed by La Raza. Not allowed to teach public school courses that encourage anti-government education. not racist it's to discourage extremists from infiltrating public classrooms.

That's what it's really about.

lol, wat? can you cite any proof of this, or are you just spouting off like some uninformed right wing idiot? don't bother responding, i already know the answer.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-12-2010, 05:47 PM
Funny - you never hear Vietnamese, Thai, Korean, Japanese, or Armenian immigrants (huge populations in L.A.) demanding that schools offer special classes for them. You never hear these groups demand that government offices provide recorded instructions or messages in their language, etc. You never hear these groups demand that the legal requirements for American citizenship be waived for them (let alone call you a "racist" or a "bigot" when you disagree.)

Houshyamama
05-12-2010, 05:47 PM
I never saw a point in Chicano Studies or Womens Studies etc., so I'm cool with this.

One of the great things about America has been it's ability to assimilate different cultures into being American first and foremost. I'm so sick and tired of hearing about other cultures and how I'm trampling on them by just living in America and how awful I am for being born a white American male. As far as I'm concerned, La Raza and the other Mexicans with an inferiority complex and go **** themselves. What the hell do they need more land for? It's not like they're doing anything of worth with the land they have.

atomicbloke
05-12-2010, 05:50 PM
Funny - you never hear Vietnamese, Thai, Korean, Japanese, or Armenian immigrants (huge populations in L.A.) demanding that schools offer special classes for them.

They do. And most big universities have those classes.

And anyway this is besides the point being discussed in this thread.

A quick reading of the bill will make it clear that the bill does not in any way ban Chicano studies.

Archer81
05-12-2010, 05:58 PM
They do. And most big universities have those classes.

And anyway this is besides the point being discussed in this thread.

A quick reading of the bill will make it clear that the bill does not in any way ban Chicano studies.


You are racist for saying that.


:Broncos:

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-12-2010, 06:00 PM
They do. And most big universities have those classes.


Really?

Where is the evidence that these other groups demand all of the things I mentioned?

atomicbloke
05-12-2010, 06:09 PM
Really?

Where is the evidence that these other groups demand all of the things I mentioned?

Read the course catalogs for any major university, public or private.

It includes, Chicano Studies, African American Studies, Asian Studies, American Studies, Indian Studies, European Studies, Comparative Ethnic Studies, etc. etc.... they form an important pillar of all humanities curricula.

And it wouldn't be if there was no demand. You cannot have a humanities department in any university without having these courses.

And as I stated, the bill does not ban ethnic studies.

MrPeepers
05-12-2010, 06:15 PM
lol, wat? can you cite any proof of this, or are you just spouting off like some uninformed right wing idiot? don't bother responding, i already know the answer.

http://www.nas.org/polArticles.cfm?Doc_Id=323

this was from 2008. nothing new, but horne created the bill to combat the class.

might do you some good to listen to other voices, than assume you know everything.

listopencil
05-12-2010, 06:15 PM
http://www.seattleshakespeare.org/2005-2006/MuchAdo/images/much-ado-image.jpg

Tombstone RJ
05-12-2010, 06:17 PM
Read the course catalogs for any major university, public or private.

It includes, Chicano Studies, African American Studies, Asian Studies, American Studies, Indian Studies, European Studies, Comparative Ethnic Studies, etc. etc.... they form an important pillar of all humanities curricula.

And it wouldn't be if there was no demand. You cannot have a humanities department in any university without having these courses.

And as I stated, the bill does not ban ethnic studies.

Dude, that's college. You can study just about anything in college. You know, "University" encompasses many different studies.

This Arizona thing is for public schools, no? I'm I missing somthing here?

listopencil
05-12-2010, 06:20 PM
http://www.nas.org/polArticles.cfm?Doc_Id=323

this was from 2008. nothing new, but horne created the bill to combat the class.

might do you some good to listen to other voices, than assume you know everything.

Owned.





http://www.v7n.com/forums/attachments/forum-lobby/1132d1134543723-lmao-owned-pic-003.jpg

UberBroncoMan
05-12-2010, 06:28 PM
Personally I can't stand obsession with ethnicity. We're all humans. Stop splitting everyone up into different factions.

Pseudofool
05-12-2010, 06:29 PM
Chicano people are American. It's basically a spanish speaking border culture. It's another subset of Americans just like Native Americans and African Americans. Each has their own history and culture. And do everyone well to learn about each subset of American culture, esp. one as old and deep-rooted as Chicano culture. In some ways it's more of a history and culture of the southwest than the typical American culture/history is...

Pseudofool
05-12-2010, 06:30 PM
Personally I can't stand obsession with ethnicity. We're all humans. Stop splitting everyone up into different factions.
Let me guess, you're white. The factions exist. It's not by choice. It's a matter of language and culture just as it's matter of race. One could say the same thing about religion, or the different denominations of christianity, and they would equally come off as oafishly.

Cultural diversity is a good thing because it bring a more nuanced view of morality, art, justice, etc. etc. If we're all the same, we have very little to offer one another.

atomicbloke
05-12-2010, 06:31 PM
Dude, that's college. You can study just about anything in college. You know, "University" encompasses many different studies.

This Arizona thing is for public schools, no? I'm I missing somthing here?

Hmm.. you have a point there....

TailgateNut
05-12-2010, 07:43 PM
Funny - you never hear Vietnamese, Thai, Korean, Japanese, or Armenian immigrants (huge populations in L.A.) demanding that schools offer special classes for them. You never hear these groups demand that government offices provide recorded instructions or messages in their language, etc. You never hear these groups demand that the legal requirements for American citizenship be waived for them (let alone call you a "racist" or a "bigot" when you disagree.)


But they're not "SPECIAL" like our illegal friends from the southern border. They deserve more, just because.:wiggle:

epicSocialism4tw
05-12-2010, 07:55 PM
Let me guess, you're white. The factions exist. It's not by choice. It's a matter of language and culture just as it's matter of race. One could say the same thing about religion, or the different denominations of christianity, and they would equally come off as oafishly.

Cultural diversity is a good thing because it bring a more nuanced view of morality, art, justice, etc. etc. If we're all the same, we have very little to offer one another.

American history has priority, period. Everything else is superfluous.

rmsanger
05-12-2010, 07:58 PM
If you want Chicano studies go back to Chicano land...

:-p somebody had to do it...

Pseudofool
05-12-2010, 08:40 PM
American history has priority, period. Sure. No one says replace American History with Chicano Studies.
Everything else is superfluous.Says who? Why not learn as much as we can about as much as we can?

Archer81
05-12-2010, 09:04 PM
Sure. No one says replace American History with Chicano Studies.
Says who? Why not learn as much as we can about as much as we can?


Call me a purist...but American history should always take precedent over any other. Is it important to learn about other cultures? Yes. But our history and culture should be taught and absorbed first. Every American kid should know who George Washington, Abraham Lincoln or MLK is before they learn about Che Guevara or Mao or Nelson Mandela or Gandhi.

:Broncos:

epicSocialism4tw
05-12-2010, 09:04 PM
Sure. No one says replace American History with Chicano Studies.
Says who? Why not learn as much as we can about as much as we can?

American history is necessary. English, Chicano, Native American, French, Irish, Aboriginal, Dinkan, Egyptian...its all ancillary. It should not be featured in schools ahead of any aspect of United States history.

...and we wonder why our people dont understand the United States and its government.

Pseudofool
05-12-2010, 09:33 PM
American history is necessary. English, Chicano, Native American, French, Irish, Aboriginal, Dinkan, Egyptian...its all ancillary. It should not be featured in schools ahead of any aspect of United States history.

...and we wonder why our people dont understand the United States and its government.Yeah, learning that Washington chopped down that cherry tree was real essential (never did tell a lie after that). What you deem essential and what others deem essential are obviously two different things. I learned a lot of BS in my highschool US History classes. They also made me take a World History too, maybe we should get rid of that, too. Quit acting like the teaching of American History in our public schools is some profound benevolence we grant our children. It's a lot of multiple choice tests, memorization, and silly geography games from what I remember (sure with some prudent facts thrown in).

Pseudofool
05-12-2010, 09:34 PM
Call me a purist...but American history should always take precedent over any other.Again, no one is saying that American History should take a back seat. Come on. Just quit with the straw men.

Dedhed
05-12-2010, 09:36 PM
2. PROMOTE RESENTMENT TOWARD A RACE OR CLASS OF PEOPLE.
3. ARE DESIGNED PRIMARILY FOR PUPILS OF A PARTICULAR ETHNIC GROUP.

So, clearly, they won't be studying the State history in Arizona.

broncocalijohn
05-12-2010, 09:41 PM
Funny - you never hear Vietnamese, Thai, Korean, Japanese, or Armenian immigrants (huge populations in L.A.) demanding that schools offer special classes for them. You never hear these groups demand that government offices provide recorded instructions or messages in their language, etc. You never hear these groups demand that the legal requirements for American citizenship be waived for them (let alone call you a "racist" or a "bigot" when you disagree.)

As much as a lib you always come across, something with illegal aliens and now special treatments got you with major common sense.
Here is a question for you and everyone else. Without sounding like a hypocrite, can you shop at Walmart because of cheap prices and still be against companies hiring illegal aliens for cheap labor? I am in this group but I feel I would rather pay higher prices knowing the labor is for American Workers and not illegals in our own country. Of course shopping at stores that have goods from other countries would not be American jobs. Hiring the illegals has other negative impacts also more so than shoping at a Walmart. I feel we have had labor issues to force the jobs overseas. Totally off topic but LA got me thinking on that one.

broncocalijohn
05-12-2010, 09:44 PM
Yeah, learning that Washington chopped down that cherry tree was real essential (never did tell a lie after that). What you deem essential and what others deem essential are obviously two different things. I learned a lot of BS in my highschool US History classes. They also made me take a World History too, maybe we should get rid of that, too. Quit acting like the teaching of American History in our public schools is some profound benevolence we grant our children. It's a lot of multiple choice tests, memorization, and silly geography games from what I remember (sure with some prudent facts thrown in).

obviously, many chicano students right here in California havent learned enough in American History to appreciate the culture of America. After all, so many of them think Che is some super nice guy that everyone should love. Hell, he has to be as he has his own t-shirts!

extralife
05-12-2010, 09:44 PM
To be perfectly honest, US history is largely pointless. You want to learn about what led to the creation of this country, take some political philosophy courses and something on 17th century England. You can do things of merit with some specific studies (as always), but survey of American history (and lets face it--all you rednecks in this thread know little more about our history than what you learned in two high school survey classes) is useless without a foundation of knowledge that we simply don't value in this country. After the founding, you pretty much have Manifest Destiny Genocide, cold war Americana, and the ethnic studies that might actually give you some insight into what makes America unique (hint: it ain't WASPs).

Archer81
05-12-2010, 09:46 PM
Again, no one is saying that American History should take a back seat. Come on. Just quit with the straw men.


I dont believe I was arguing. I was making a statement. That is my opinion. The rest of the post is also my opinion. If you are American, our history comes first. Then learn about the rest of the world. It is absolutely shocking that too many kids have no clue who some of America's most important figures are. If its not on MTV, its not worth knowing.


:Broncos:

Dedhed
05-12-2010, 09:49 PM
Of course shopping at stores that have goods from other countries would not be American jobs.Hilarious!Hilarious!Hilarious!Hilarious!Hilar ious!Hilarious!

jhat01
05-12-2010, 09:59 PM
To be perfectly honest, US history is largely pointless. You want to learn about what led to the creation of this country, take some political philosophy courses and something on 17th century England. You can do things of merit with some specific studies (as always), but survey of American history (and lets face it--all you rednecks in this thread know little more about our history than what you learned in two high school survey classes) is useless without a foundation of knowledge that we simply don't value in this country. After the founding, you pretty much have Manifest Destiny Genocide, cold war Americana, and the ethnic studies that might actually give you some insight into what makes America unique (hint: it ain't WASPs).

WASPs? Right...Nothing about us whites makes america unique at all. Nice post.

extralife
05-12-2010, 10:01 PM
20-1 you had to look that term up

Archer81
05-12-2010, 10:01 PM
To be perfectly honest, US history is largely pointless. You want to learn about what led to the creation of this country, take some political philosophy courses and something on 17th century England. You can do things of merit with some specific studies (as always), but survey of American history (and lets face it--all you rednecks in this thread know little more about our history than what you learned in two high school survey classes) is useless without a foundation of knowledge that we simply don't value in this country. After the founding, you pretty much have Manifest Destiny Genocide, cold war Americana, and the ethnic studies that might actually give you some insight into what makes America unique (hint: it ain't WASPs).


Spoken like a guy who took three survey courses.


:Broncos:

jhat01
05-12-2010, 10:01 PM
20-1 you had to look that term up

It's a bet.

extralife
05-12-2010, 10:02 PM
Spoken like a guy who took three survey courses.


:Broncos:

hey cold war americana is pretty interesting

Archer81
05-12-2010, 10:03 PM
hey cold war americana is pretty interesting


It's all fascinating, the good and the bad.



:Broncos:

extralife
05-12-2010, 10:05 PM
as long as it's white dudes, I guess

jhat01
05-12-2010, 10:06 PM
What about the black dudes at Jamestown?

DenverBroncosJM
05-12-2010, 10:06 PM
Man Arizona has got balls. You know following through on laws and all that. They are radicals!

extralife
05-12-2010, 10:06 PM
I dunno, Jamestown is a pretty whitey name. They were probably passing.

jhat01
05-12-2010, 10:08 PM
I dunno, Jamestown is a pretty whitey name. They were probably passing.

Now you're trolling. I thought you were a history guy..Nevermind

Archer81
05-12-2010, 10:08 PM
as long as it's white dudes, I guess


You could argue that a country founded on the equality of all men and the struggle to make that true makes for a more compelling history than learning about class struggle as defined by 19th century white men.


:Broncos:

Archer81
05-12-2010, 10:10 PM
I dunno, Jamestown is a pretty whitey name. They were probably passing.


You do realize that early on in colonial history you had black plantation owners in Va, the Carolinas and what became Georgia who owned slaves? The racial component came later, when Tobacco become a larger cash crop.



:Broncos:

Tombstone RJ
05-12-2010, 10:11 PM
To be perfectly honest, US history is largely pointless. You want to learn about what led to the creation of this country, take some political philosophy courses and something on 17th century England. You can do things of merit with some specific studies (as always), but survey of American history (and lets face it--all you rednecks in this thread know little more about our history than what you learned in two high school survey classes) is useless without a foundation of knowledge that we simply don't value in this country. After the founding, you pretty much have Manifest Destiny Genocide, cold war Americana, and the ethnic studies that might actually give you some insight into what makes America unique (hint: it ain't WASPs).

Hey, I love WASP! Or, don't you know 80's metal?

If US history is largely pointless then general Western Civ history is pretty much pointless too, no?

Pseudofool
05-12-2010, 10:13 PM
You could argue that a country founded on the equality of all men and the struggle to make that true makes for a more compelling history than learning about class struggle as defined by 19th century white men.


:Broncos:
Which do you think is more interest to whom, I wonder?

MrPeepers
05-12-2010, 10:17 PM
sorry, but in 500 years... US History is going to be a huge lesson. All of it will be. Maybe I'm being somewhat ethnocentric here, but this country is like no other in the world. It may not last as long as we hope, but the cultural message and hegemonic status in a global environment is no joke. We have a sh!tload of strategic advantages and resources to not just fade away over night.

Mogulseeker
05-12-2010, 10:17 PM
Hey, I love WASP! Or, don't you know 80's metal?

If US history is largely pointless then general Western Civ history is pretty much pointless too, no?

WASP = White Anglo Saxon Protestant

And... stifling knowledge is a bad idea. But I don't really see a point for ethnic studies in High School .

Tombstone RJ
05-12-2010, 10:21 PM
WASP = White Anglo Saxon Protestant

And... stifling knowledge is a bad idea. But I don't really see a point for ethnic studies in High School .

Um, I don't know about that, but I do know W.A.S.P.:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Zs9nNlwuDUI/SFtzJyMEqJI/AAAAAAAABhc/fqUr_dB6So8/s400/wasp.jpg

Party on dude.

Victor
05-12-2010, 10:22 PM
To be perfectly honest, US history is largely pointless. You want to learn about what led to the creation of this country, take some political philosophy courses and something on 17th century England. You can do things of merit with some specific studies (as always), but survey of American history (and lets face it--all you rednecks in this thread know little more about our history than what you learned in two high school survey classes) is useless without a foundation of knowledge that we simply don't value in this country. After the founding, you pretty much have Manifest Destiny Genocide, cold war Americana, and the ethnic studies that might actually give you some insight into what makes America unique (hint: it ain't WASPs).

I don't know where you took your US history, but mine was full of white people, black people, yellow people, and red people. Maybe your school just sucked.

extralife
05-12-2010, 10:22 PM
WASP = White Anglo Saxon Protestant

And... stifling knowledge is a bad idea. But I don't really see a point for High School .

fixed

extralife
05-12-2010, 10:24 PM
You could argue that a country founded on the equality of all men and the struggle to make that true makes for a more compelling history than learning about class struggle as defined by 19th century white men.


:Broncos:

switching gears back to serious mode: if America is the "struggle for equality,' then might it not be a bad idea to not belittle the identities of those disparate peoples struggling for said equality? Where America is worth looking at from an intellectual perspective is in its diversity. Without that, what are we? Europe Jr. without the cultural cache and a **** load of money?

Tombstone RJ
05-12-2010, 10:25 PM
I fixed your post.

fixed

Tombstone RJ
05-12-2010, 10:27 PM
switching gears back to serious mode: if America is the "struggle for equality,' then might it not be a bad idea to not belittle the identities of those disparate peoples struggling for said equality? Where America is worth looking at from an intellectual perspective is in its diversity. Without that, what are we? Europe Jr. without the cultural cache and a **** load of money?

You mean you were joking? Dude, you suck at humor.

extralife
05-12-2010, 10:29 PM
I don't know where you took your US history, but mine was full of white people, black people, yellow people, and red people. Maybe your school just sucked.

My school certainly did suck (thanks for asking), but for the most part any non-white people you learn about in American history classes are in there for the ways they relate to the bigger picture--and the bigger picture in this case is the journey west from Europe to California of a specific breed of white people.

Anyway, you're undermining your own point. If those people are in your survey of US history classes, they must be worth learning about on their own, right? After all, you can take classes and write books about and earn degrees based on knowledge of any other specific part of that survey, right? Like America in World War II, or The Gold Rush, or American Industry, or Bible Belt Politics, or jazz age literature, or...anything you can name, right? And that's ok, right? But once you throw "black" or "chicano" in there...whhoooooaaaaaaa now, what are you, some kind of hippy ******?!

Archer81
05-12-2010, 10:30 PM
switching gears back to serious mode: if America is the "struggle for equality,' then might it not be a bad idea to not belittle the identities of those disparate peoples struggling for said equality? Where America is worth looking at from an intellectual perspective is in its diversity. Without that, what are we? Europe Jr. without the cultural cache and a **** load of money?


I never said anything about belittling. History is a narrative. Lots of different story tellers involved. It would be wise to not cut out "whitey" simply to make diversity the selling point. People succeed here despite what color they are. I think that matters more than history from a chicano, chinese, korean or black perspective exclusively.

E pluribus unum, brother.

:Broncos:

extralife
05-12-2010, 10:31 PM
so now all you're doing is arguing against specialization.

epicSocialism4tw
05-12-2010, 10:32 PM
You mean you were joking? Dude, you suck at humor.

He's pretty good at racism though.

extralife
05-12-2010, 10:33 PM
When you immediately equate "not serious" with "humor"...well, I don't know what to tell you.

Archer81
05-12-2010, 10:35 PM
so now all you're doing is arguing against specialization.


I dont view minority history as different or special. It is not a seperate history from mine because I am white. Its American history, isnt it? Does it make it more worthwhile because its history according to latinos or blacks?


:Broncos:

extralife
05-12-2010, 10:37 PM
I suppose it is still American history, yes (except when it's not). I don't really see what you're trying to say.

sixtimeseight
05-12-2010, 10:38 PM
http://www.nas.org/polArticles.cfm?Doc_Id=323

this was from 2008. nothing new, but horne created the bill to combat the class.

might do you some good to listen to other voices, than assume you know everything.

lol, is this a joke? are you trying to be funny? i accuse you of being an idiot right wing piece of ****, and you post a link from some "watchdog" group composed of idiot right wing pieces of ****...

that had to have been a joke, the irony is just too thick. good one man, i do appreciate your finely tuned sense of humor.

Archer81
05-12-2010, 10:39 PM
I suppose it is still American history, yes (except when it's not). I don't really see what you're trying to say.


How is studying history exclusive to one particular race or tribe of people eliminate racism as a factor in our society?


:Broncos:

Tombstone RJ
05-12-2010, 10:39 PM
My school certainly did suck (thanks for asking), but for the most part any non-white people you learn about in American history classes are in there for the ways they relate to the bigger picture--and the bigger picture in this case is the journey west from Europe to California of a specific breed of white people.

Anyway, you're undermining your own point. If those people are in your survey of US history classes, they must be worth learning about on their own, right? After all, you can take classes and write books about and earn degrees based on knowledge of any other specific part of that survey, right? Like America in World War II, or The Gold Rush, or American Industry, or Bible Belt Politics, or jazz age literature, or...anything you can name, right? And that's ok, right? But once you throw "black" or "chicano" in there...whhoooooaaaaaaa now, what are you, some kind of hippy ******?!

I'm a product of the public school system and in 8th grade, we got to choose and elective class. Guess what my elective class was, in 8th grade. Now remember, this was 8th grade, in a public school, in the dumb ol' USA.

Ok, I'll just tell you. It was Seven Ancient Civilizations. It was all about South American and Central American pre colonial civilizations. Aztecs, Incas, Mayas, Olmecs, and like a few others (but I can't count, 'cause I'm just a dummy).

8th grade.

extralife
05-12-2010, 10:41 PM
How is studying history exclusive to one particular race or tribe of people eliminate racism as a factor in our society?

Why are you equating studies of any kind with racism?

And I don't know about you, but I don't have the time or the mental capacity to be omniscient. I have to pick what things I want to know. Why can't I pick the cultural history of my people?

(note: I am white and have no particular interest in chicano studies)

Victor
05-12-2010, 10:42 PM
My school certainly did suck (thanks for asking), but for the most part any non-white people you learn about in American history classes are in there for the ways they relate to the bigger picture--and the bigger picture in this case is the journey west from Europe to California of a specific breed of white people.

Anyway, you're undermining your own point. If those people are in your survey of US history classes, they must be worth learning about on their own, right? After all, you can take classes and write books about and earn degrees based on knowledge of any other specific part of that survey, right? Like America in World War II, or The Gold Rush, or American Industry, or Bible Belt Politics, or jazz age literature, or...anything you can name, right? And that's ok, right? But once you throw "black" or "chicano" in there...whhoooooaaaaaaa now, what are you, some kind of hippy ******?!

I didn't ask, I made a statement. I see you prefer the history of the revisionist type. This country was settled by people from hundreds of different countries. Do you propose to create classes to investigate the history of each? Is Chicano studies more important than Norwegian studies? Of course I'm a Norwegian/American WASP, so what do I know.

extralife...always blaming "the man" for keeping you down, aren't you. Enjoy life as the victim, bro.

extralife
05-12-2010, 10:44 PM
I'm a product of the public school system and in 8th grade, we got to choose and elective class. Guess what my elective class was, in 8th grade. Now remember, this was 8th grade, in a public school, in the dumb ol' USA.

Ok, I'll just tell you. It was Seven Ancient Civilizations. It was all about South American and Central American pre colonial civilizations. Aztecs, Incas, Mayas, Olmecs, and like a few others (but I can't count, 'cause I'm just a dummy).

8th grade.

What's your point? Aren't I arguing that this is a good thing?

(hint: I am)

This particular bill in Arizona might be construed as wishing (or being able) to eliminate that kind of diversity. I mean, probably not, because we (we being Europeans) already killed all those people you studied in 8th grade, so they aren't much of a cultural threat.

cutthemdown
05-12-2010, 10:45 PM
Teaching kids lame subjects like Chicano studies should be banned. That's for private schools IMO.

Math/Science/English/History/Physical Education/Govt poli sci/Music
They don't need black studies, thats BS, public money shouldn't be wasted on that.

cutthemdown
05-12-2010, 10:47 PM
I have no problem with history being taught. Sure you talk about all people who shaped history, regardless of race. But a whole class on that? in HS? cmon? This stuff is more for college if you so chose.

If they have time for that in HS they should just make it 3 yrs and get them to college faster

Tombstone RJ
05-12-2010, 10:47 PM
What's your point? Aren't I arguing that this is a good thing?

(hint: I am)

This particular bill in Arizona might be construed as wishing (or being able) to eliminate that kind of diversity. I mean, probably not, because we (we being Europeans) already killed all those people you studied in 8th grade, so they aren't much of a cultural threat.

What's your point?

Oh yah: History in public schools is all white washed propoganda, right? I'm just pointing out how wrong you are.

8th grade.

extralife
05-12-2010, 10:49 PM
Do you propose to create classes to investigate the history of each?

Actually, yes, I do. Luckily, you can learn about all of those people in most universities. Mission success.

Is Chicano studies more important than Norwegian studies? Of course I'm a Norwegian/American WASP, so what do I know.


To the course of American history and cultural development, yes, Chicano studies are "more important" than Norwegian studies. To the state of Arizona, where people of hispanic descent make up 28% of the population, absolutely. There is immediate relevance and interest.

Tombstone RJ
05-12-2010, 10:49 PM
Have to say it again: 8th grade.

Archer81
05-12-2010, 10:49 PM
Why are you equating studies of any kind with racism?

And I don't know about you, but I don't have the time or the mental capacity to be omniscient. I have to pick what things I want to know. Why can't I pick the cultural history of my people?

(note: I am white and have no particular interest in chicano studies)


If you are American...you should learn the cultural history of your people. We absolutely agree. Just like if you were Chinese in China, Indian in India or Greek in Greece.


:Broncos:

extralife
05-12-2010, 10:52 PM
Teaching kids lame subjects like Chicano studies should be banned. That's for private schools IMO.

Math/Science/English/History/Physical Education/Govt poli sci/Music
They don't need black studies, thats BS, public money shouldn't be wasted on that.

Well hell, if it were up to me there would be no mandatory education period, so I'm probably not your man, here.

And obviously people in the past would have looked to the traditional curriculum you've just outlined as being "a bunch of BS." Where are logic, rhetoric, Latin, and bible studies?

Archer81
05-12-2010, 10:54 PM
Well hell, if it were up to me there would be no mandatory education period, so I'm probably not your man, here.

And obviously people in the past would have looked to the traditional curriculum you've just outlined as being "a bunch of BS." Where are logic, rhetoric, Latin, and bible studies?


It was unreal to me what kids in the 1800's had to know to pass 8th grade...Translate bible verses from latin into english, every chief justice of the US to that point, civics, conjugation of latin and greek...like wtf? Do kids in the 8th grade today know what civics is?


:Broncos:

extralife
05-12-2010, 10:54 PM
If you are American...you should learn the cultural history of your people. We absolutely agree. Just like if you were Chinese in China, Indian in India or Greek in Greece.


:Broncos:

This shows a gross misunderstanding of America. A misunderstanding some proper American history might do away with!

What makes America unique is that there are no "Americans" like there are Chinese, Indians, or Greeks. "American" history as you describe it is the history of a specific political body in a way that, say, Greek history is not.

Archer81
05-12-2010, 10:58 PM
This shows a gross misunderstanding of America. A misunderstanding some proper American history might do away with!

What makes America unique is that there are no "Americans" like there are Chinese, Indians, or Greeks. "American" history as you describe it is the history of a specific political body in a way that, say, Greek history is not.


Incorrect. An American has a shared history, regardless of ethnicity. There cannot be a seperation simply because the person's ancestry might be west african or northeast asian or southern european. Is MLK a black specific historical figure or is he an American one?


:Broncos:

extralife
05-12-2010, 11:02 PM
But the question is this: if the American civil rights legislation (all passed by white people, natch) hadn't gone through, or if it went through before or after MLK, or if MLK didn't have as direct an influence on the popular consciousness of white America as he did, would you read about him in your history books? And if not, would that mean that he wasn't worth reading about?

For every MLKs there are plenty of dudes that slip through the cracks. There is the political stage of America, and then there is the reality of the people living in the country. Sometimes they overlap. Sometimes they do not.

Killericon
05-12-2010, 11:03 PM
Incorrect. An American has a shared history, regardless of ethnicity. There cannot be a seperation simply because the person's ancestry might be west african or northeast asian or southern european. Is MLK a black specific historical figure or is he an American one?


:Broncos:

A loaded and rabble-rousing question if ever I heard one.

Tombstone RJ
05-12-2010, 11:04 PM
You know what I find so ironic about groups like La Raza? where to start... ok, here goes.

If La Raza is so great, how come Mexico is such a stink hole? I mean, if they know everything, why don't they fix Mexico first? Right? Right?

If La Raza wants to take over the SW USA then do they still want us to fund the schools where they are teaching their propoganda at? That is, do my tax payer dollars still go to their educational system?

If all the Chicanos/La Raza's want to take over everything in the SW USA, are they going to open their borders and accept immigrants from Asia, Africa, etc? Or, are they too good for all those inferior people?

If La Raza accomplishes it's ultimate goal of liberating all the oppressed chicanos in the SW USA, are they then going to liberate all the oppressed Chicanos in Mexico too? Or, are they just gonna keep all that greatness in AZ, NM, SoCal and Tejas?

Tombstone RJ
05-12-2010, 11:07 PM
But the question is this: if the American civil rights legislation (all passed by white people, natch) hadn't gone through, or if it went through before or after MLK, or if MLK didn't have as direct an influence on the popular consciousness of white America as he did, would you read about him in your history books? And if not, would that mean that he wasn't worth reading about?

For every MLKs there are plenty of dudes that slip through the cracks. There is the political stage of America, and then there is the reality of the people living in the country. Sometimes they overlap. Sometimes they do not.

Why don't you do us all a favor and write the history books for us? Obviously, you already know everything, right?

I'm I wrong here?

MrPeepers
05-12-2010, 11:09 PM
lol, is this a joke? are you trying to be funny? i accuse you of being an idiot right wing piece of ****, and you post a link from some "watchdog" group composed of idiot right wing pieces of ****...

that had to have been a joke, the irony is just too thick. good one man, i do appreciate your finely tuned sense of humor.

you have quite the post history, not going to get into a wrestling match with a mental midget. you can't do anything without profanity.

Garcia Bronco
05-12-2010, 11:10 PM
Yeah, learning that Washington chopped down that cherry tree was real essential (never did tell a lie after that). What you deem essential and what others deem essential are obviously two different things. I learned a lot of BS in my highschool US History classes. They also made me take a World History too, maybe we should get rid of that, too. Quit acting like the teaching of American History in our public schools is some profound benevolence we grant our children. It's a lot of multiple choice tests, memorization, and silly geography games from what I remember (sure with some prudent facts thrown in).

Then you had a weak study course on American History. You owe your life, station, and education to George Washington you ****ing loser.

extralife
05-12-2010, 11:25 PM
...lol?

extralife
05-12-2010, 11:25 PM
Without george washington, you'd all be speaking english!!

Tombstone RJ
05-12-2010, 11:30 PM
8th grade.

extralife
05-12-2010, 11:31 PM
Answer: what is the highest level of education you've attained?

Tombstone RJ
05-12-2010, 11:39 PM
Answer: what is the highest level of education you've attained?

Please, tell me more.

Tombstone RJ
05-12-2010, 11:42 PM
Actually, Seven Ancient Civs might have been 7th grade...

Carmelo15
05-13-2010, 12:10 AM
After reading through 4 pages after my OP, it has become quite clear to me that many of you do not even know what the word Chicano means.

Chicano means Mexican-American. There are no Chicanos in Mexico. Chicanos are AMERICANS of Mexican descent. Equating Chicanos to Mexicans is like equating Blacks to Africans. Carlos Santana is Chicano not Mexican. Mark Sanchez: Chicano. Michael Jordan is African-American , not African. Martin Luther King: Black. As Edward James Olmos a Chicano, said in Stand and Deliver, "entiendes mendes? "

Also, most of you are saying Chicanos and Mexicans are one in the same, could not be more off base. Culturally, they are quite different. Many Chicanos don't even speak a word of Spanish. Chicanos like rock n roll & hip-hop, not Mariachi and Bachata. Our food has a lot of differences as well. Chicanos ARE Americans. Mexicans hate on us for it all the time, trust me. Denver Public Schools have much conflict from this exact issue. Mexicans consider Chicanos sellouts, a watered-down version, unpure. For those of you who are African-American, you should relate quite well. I know Africans hate on you guys all the time too. Same concept.

I hope this clears up most of the ignorance that's been said in this thread.

baja
05-13-2010, 12:36 AM
Mexicans do not like Chicanos and Chicanos don't like Mexicans at all.

Requiem
05-13-2010, 12:55 AM
I took ever history course that was available to me in middle school and high school as electives because I found them to be important, some were required -- and yeah, I'd have to say that the American version of history I was given was painted pretty nicely in comparison to how things really went down. Then again, there are certain things kids at age 10 aren't going to be able to understand that older people can.

I look back at my early years of school and kind of laugh. A heavy sense of nationalism and American pride was indoctrinated into me on a daily basis. All of us kids where I grew up. From the pledge, saluting the flag, putting on plays and learning folk songs. It has its importance, but it goes quite beyond that. American History really isn't my thing anyways. Still a very young country with a lot left to do. We'll be in the wayside of history at some point in time. Happens to the best of 'em.

broncocalijohn
05-13-2010, 01:31 AM
I hope this clears up most of the ignorance that's been said in this thread.

Kinda like you starting this thread and not knowing that it was for public schools and not colleges as you told us you majored in Chicano studies (which was college). No way should Chicano studies be in High School if the problems they saw were happening. No one is as radical as those groups compared to Asian studies or such. BTW, what the hell do you do to use Chicano studies?

extralife
05-13-2010, 01:49 AM
State colleges are public. This law would allow the state of Arizona to directly influence the studies offered at universities in the area (if I'm reading it correctly). Either way, I see no issue with offering Chicano stuff at the high school level, particularly in a state as steeped in hispanic culture as Arizona. I don't know if you guys have, uhh, been to high school and all, but they got things called "electives" there.

epicSocialism4tw
05-13-2010, 02:29 AM
This shows a gross misunderstanding of America. A misunderstanding some proper American history might do away with!

What makes America unique is that there are no "Americans" like there are Chinese, Indians, or Greeks. "American" history as you describe it is the history of a specific political body in a way that, say, Greek history is not.

This is a problem.

You clearly confuse race and nationality.

America is a place where nationality transcends race. If all the La Raza and Aztlan nutjobs would understand that, they could be who they are without trying to live out the "kill whitey" cliche.

ZONA
05-13-2010, 02:33 AM
Or any type of ethnic studies for that matter. There's no denying now that this woman is a racist. I already felt this way after she signed her radical immigration law. I'd like to see those of you who tried to rationalize that law to do the same for this one.

Posting from a mobile phone right now, link will be posted later. If someone else could get one up in the meantime that'd be great.

This is about a different law, not illegal immigration so as a former Chicano Studies major, I feel this deserves its own thread!

No offense but it's people like you who misinterpret something such as this and start spouting off first rather then trying to read and learn more about what is really being said. Where does it mention ANYTHING at all about chicano studies?

Good grief already. This nonsense is unreal.

extralife
05-13-2010, 03:19 AM
This is a problem.

You clearly confuse race and nationality.

No, I'm showing that there is no binding idea of American, and that this <i>lack</i> is largely what defines us. I don't "confuse" race and nationality, I point out that there is a difference between the two, and that identity in America is a struggle between them.

When you study "Greek history" (even in Greece), you are not studying the history of the nation of Greece as currently constituted--you are studying the history of a people. The Greece of today is less than a hundred years old. You study that "nation," you are studying a place and a people that has been controlled or influence by many disparate nations and groups, from the Hittites to the Achaeans, to the Macedonians, to the Romans, Byzantines, Ottoman Turks, etc. The "nation" of Greece changed its constituency time and time again, but we still have a concept of "The Greeks" that we trace through all of this. By contrast, American history is the history of the European control of this area. If America as we know it were wiped out tomorrow, our idea of "American history" would cease to exist. It would be "over" in a way that thousands of years of Greek history never could, just as we don't in any way identify our communal history with the history of the native peoples that lived here for thousands of years before we exterminated them. The idea of an "American" is 100% a political construct. The cultural identities of the citizens of this country are absolutely vital to any collective identity we might have, and to give them up under some notion of political identity is pure folly.

extralife
05-13-2010, 03:21 AM
Where does it mention ANYTHING at all about chicano studies?

3. ARE DESIGNED PRIMARILY FOR PUPILS OF A PARTICULAR ETHNIC GROUP.
4. ADVOCATE ETHNIC SOLIDARITY INSTEAD OF THE TREATMENT OF PUPILS AS
INDIVIDUALS.

Please don't be stupid.

Rohirrim
05-13-2010, 03:36 AM
I am totally opposed to "groupism." This country is founded on the ideal that rights are the province of the individual, not the group. Since the sixties, this ideal has been polluted by the concepts of group identity. Besides, I know when I was in college, I never saw an "ethnic studies" course that wasn't simply a cover for Marxism, which relies on groupism. And the reality is that all of this groupism has only a single goal in mind: Political power. American history is complex. To view it through a philosophical scheme that tries to characterize it as "bad" or "good" is simplistic to the point of moronic. Was Rome good or bad? Was Greece good or bad? Stupid questions. Anyway, it's just another form of reducing self-pride to the level of egotism: My "group" is the best. We're the moral group. We're the righteous group. blah blah blah.

This stuff is as old as humanity. How many native tribes in America considered themselves "The people?" How many tribes in human history have considered themselves "The chosen ones?" Nearly all of them. Ha! It always boils down to the same old ****, "Our group is the best and you foreigners are evil, stupid, bigoted, greedy,..." all the various failings of humanity, while "our" group has none of those failings. Yeah, right.

America is a concept. An ideal. That's how it should be taught. There have been failings, like slavery, and there have been successes, like the abolition movement. We have gone backwards, like the Red Scare, and we have led the way, like the Marshall Plan. Teach all the philosophies of governance and when you get to America, compare. Do you want to believe in the ideal that we are all, as individuals, created equal and are endowed by our creator with certain rights? Or do you want your children to learn that they are members of a group and that the group will define their identity? America is a work in progress. I don't agree with the idea of tearing it down before it's fulfilled its promise simply to satisfy some "group" egotism. Nowhere in our Constitution is there a place for a separate "group" identity or "group" rights. And where we have made room for such considerations (the handicapped, for instance) it has been for a compelling reason.

Besides, I believe that the American ideal is much closer to the path of enlightenment as it is designed in this universe. Enlightenment is the province of the individual. We come into this world alone, and we shall leave alone. That understanding we glean from our experiences creates an individual experience and "self"-realization. There is no such thing as a "group realization." Our government was designed by the founders to clear the path for the individual to pursue his or her own happiness. Groupism attacks the roots of our democracy. I'm all for tearing it out like the disease it represents.

Hopefully, we can teach the ideals of America, against the truth of her history, in such a way that our children, of all races, colors and creeds, will grow up proud to say, "I am an American" rather than rely on a hyphenated identity.

ZONA
05-13-2010, 03:47 AM
Please don't be stupid.

A. A SCHOOL DISTRICT OR CHARTER SCHOOL IN THIS STATE SHALL NOT INCLUDE IN ITS PROGRAM OF INSTRUCTION ANY COURSES OR CLASSES THAT INCLUDE ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
1. PROMOTE THE OVERTHROW OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.
2. PROMOTE RESENTMENT TOWARD A RACE OR CLASS OF PEOPLE.
3. ARE DESIGNED PRIMARILY FOR PUPILS OF A PARTICULAR ETHNIC GROUP.
4. ADVOCATE ETHNIC SOLIDARITY INSTEAD OF THE TREATMENT OF PUPILS AS INDIVIDUALS.

Yeah, try not taking it out of context. Look at all of it and what it's trying to say. Basically saying, they want students to be looked at as individuals, and not forced to be looked at as being part of a race or group, and therefor no special courses should be designed for particular groups, which would prohibit individualism. I think it's trying to promote individualism and guard against anti-nationalism. That's how I read it anyway.

extralife
05-13-2010, 03:53 AM
It doesn't matter what it is "trying" to do--it matters what it <i>can</i> do. Besides, this was clearly designed to take aim at chicano identity--look at the timing, look at the demographics, look at the reality.

extralife
05-13-2010, 04:01 AM
I am totally opposed to "groupism." This country is founded on the ideal that rights are the province of the individual, not the group. Since the sixties, this ideal has been polluted by the concepts of group identity. Besides, I know when I was in college, I never saw an "ethnic studies" course that wasn't simply a cover for Marxism, which relies on groupism. And the reality is that all of this groupism has only a single goal in mind: Political power. American history is complex. To view it through a philosophical scheme that tries to characterize it as "bad" or "good" is simplistic to the point of moronic. Was Rome good or bad? Was Greece good or bad? Stupid questions. Anyway, it's just another form of reducing self-pride to the level of egotism: My "group" is the best. We're the moral group. We're the righteous group. blah blah blah.

This stuff is as old as humanity. How many native tribes in America considered themselves "The people?" How many tribes in human history have considered themselves "The chosen ones?" Nearly all of them. Ha! It always boils down to the same old ****, "Our group is the best and you foreigners are evil, stupid, bigoted, greedy,..." all the various failings of humanity, while "our" group has none of those failings. Yeah, right.

America is a concept. An ideal. That's how it should be taught. There have been failings, like slavery, and there have been successes, like the abolition movement. We have gone backwards, like the Red Scare, and we have led the way, like the Marshall Plan. Teach all the philosophies of governance and when you get to America, compare. Do you want to believe in the ideal that we are all, as individuals, created equal and are endowed by our creator with certain rights? Or do you want your children to learn that they are members of a group and that the group will define their identity? America is a work in progress. I don't agree with the idea of tearing it down before it's fulfilled its promise simply to satisfy some "group" egotism. Nowhere in our Constitution is there a place for a separate "group" identity or "group" rights. And where we have made room for such considerations (the handicapped, for instance) it has been for a compelling reason.

Besides, I believe that the American ideal is much closer to the path of enlightenment as it is designed in this universe. Enlightenment is the province of the individual. We come into this world alone, and we shall leave alone. That understanding we glean from our experiences creates an individual experience and "self"-realization. There is no such thing as a "group realization." Our government was designed by the founders to clear the path for the individual to pursue his or her own happiness. Groupism attacks the roots of our democracy. I'm all for tearing it out like the disease it represents.

Hopefully, we can teach the ideals of America, against the truth of her history, in such a way that our children, of all races, colors and creeds, will grow up proud to say, "I am an American" rather than rely on a hyphenated identity.

To say any study of a group is an attempt to promote that group as "the best" is sophomoric. Like you say, categorizing Rome or Greece as good or bad is a useless simplification. Why do you assume anyone that isn't white holds themselves to stupid ideals? There is nothing wrong with educating oneself on concepts of cultural identity. To say everyone is "equal" or "the same" or that we should be "color blind" is another stupid oversimplification. Differences should be understood, explored, and developed rather than glossed over in the name of hegemony. To say otherwise is to abuse a position of power in which "our" cultural world view is so dominant and ubiquitous that we conflate it with "normal" or "the truth" or whatever rather than understanding that it is simply another set of principles and identities--one among many. You don't get to decide whether a person of X descent should get to consider that descent or not. You don't get to define America.

HILife
05-13-2010, 06:06 AM
the class was developed by La Raza. Not allowed to teach public school courses that encourage anti-government education. not racist it's to discourage extremists from infiltrating public classrooms.

That's what it's really about.

wrong. Tell the whole story.

HILife
05-13-2010, 06:08 AM
A. A SCHOOL DISTRICT OR CHARTER SCHOOL IN THIS STATE SHALL NOT INCLUDE IN ITS PROGRAM OF INSTRUCTION ANY COURSES OR CLASSES THAT INCLUDE ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:
1. PROMOTE THE OVERTHROW OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.
2. PROMOTE RESENTMENT TOWARD A RACE OR CLASS OF PEOPLE.
3. ARE DESIGNED PRIMARILY FOR PUPILS OF A PARTICULAR ETHNIC GROUP.
4. ADVOCATE ETHNIC SOLIDARITY INSTEAD OF THE TREATMENT OF PUPILS AS INDIVIDUALS.

Yeah, try not taking it out of context. Look at all of it and what it's trying to say. Basically saying, they want students to be looked at as individuals, and not forced to be looked at as being part of a race or group, and therefor no special courses should be designed for particular groups, which would prohibit individualism. I think it's trying to promote individualism and guard against anti-nationalism. That's how I read it anyway.

Wrong. Try telling the whole story.

HILife
05-13-2010, 06:12 AM
I never saw a point in Chicano Studies or Womens Studies etc., so I'm cool with this.

One of the great things about America has been it's ability to assimilate different cultures into being American first and foremost. I'm so sick and tired of hearing about other cultures and how I'm trampling on them by just living in America and how awful I am for being born a white American male. As far as I'm concerned, La Raza and the other Mexicans with an inferiority complex and go **** themselves. What the hell do they need more land for? It's not like they're doing anything of worth with the land they have.

Wow, this thread is just full of it.

http://www.reelcomix.com/admin/admin_images/ignorance-is-bliss.jpg

Rohirrim
05-13-2010, 07:01 AM
To say any study of a group is an attempt to promote that group as "the best" is sophomoric. Like you say, categorizing Rome or Greece as good or bad is a useless simplification. Why do you assume anyone that isn't white holds themselves to stupid ideals?

If you believe that what is found in this nation's founding documents are stupid ideals, why don't you get the **** out, moron?

There is nothing wrong with educating oneself on concepts of cultural identity. To say everyone is "equal" or "the same" or that we should be "color blind" is another stupid oversimplification.

Man, have you been indoctrinated in the PC bull**** or what?

Differences should be understood, explored, and developed rather than glossed over in the name of hegemony.

Differences should be "developed?" Into what, war?

To say otherwise is to abuse a position of power in which "our" cultural world view is so dominant and ubiquitous that we conflate it with "normal" or "the truth" or whatever rather than understanding that it is simply another set of principles and identities--one among many.

"Abuse a position of power?" There's the good old Marxist brain sludge. Man, what a bunch of PC drivel. Who dumped that crap into your brain? Our cultural view? What, as expressed in the Bill of Rights? So now that's a "cultural world view" that we can toss out, and replace with what? Oh yeah, the great grab bag of assorted principles and identities. Gee, just pick one. They're all the same. Idiot.


You don't get to decide whether a person of X descent should get to consider that descent or not. You don't get to define America.

But you do? As what, the melting pot that never melts? Yes, let us celebrate our divisions until we're at each other's throats. I'd prefer we "celebrate" what brings us together, not what drives us apart. I have no problem with studying cultures. Hell, I minored in anthropology. I studied all sorts of cultures. Cultures are great fun, and interesting. Of course, what I'm talking about is not cultures, it's principles and ideals. I suggest that people who don't like ours not be allowed to teach antithetical principles and ideals as preferable in our own schools. Okay? I don't approve of radical madrassas teaching children how to make themselves into a bomb, why should I support teaching children that our way of life is wrong and our government evil? Yeah, that will create great citizens. Let's teach them not to believe in our founding principles. You've reached a whole new pinnacle of stupid.

If your blithering rant is any example of the garbage being taught in these classes, I can't blame Arizona for ending them.

BTW, there's no such thing as "white" culture dominating anybody. I'm sure there are just as many divisions in "white culture" (Russian, Italian, Irish, English, etc etc etc) as there are in "brown" culture. Then we could go into economic divisions which is a whole different thesis in itself. I realize, for the simple minded, it's much easier to just go with white, brown, black, yellow, and whatever. But those divisions are meaningless except when manipulated as political entities for specific political agendas.

I see that you learned an important concept in your ethnic studies: That the ideals of the founders were "white" ideals so why should anybody of a different color group believe in them? Right? After all, those are just whitey's "stupid ideals." And I quote.

RaiderH8r
05-13-2010, 07:31 AM
Funny - you never hear Vietnamese, Thai, Korean, Japanese, or Armenian immigrants (huge populations in L.A.) demanding that schools offer special classes for them. You never hear these groups demand that government offices provide recorded instructions or messages in their language, etc. You never hear these groups demand that the legal requirements for American citizenship be waived for them (let alone call you a "racist" or a "bigot" when you disagree.)

Ouch, that hurt my brain. Welp, I'm going to head out for the looting. After agreeing with LABF the final stages of the Barackalypse are sure to follow.

Kidding aside, this is exactly right. I have nothing to add to this comment aside from my unwavering support for its truthiness.

Carmelo15
05-13-2010, 08:23 AM
Kinda like you starting this thread and not knowing that it was for public schools and not colleges as you told us you majored in Chicano studies (which was college). No way should Chicano studies be in High School if the problems they saw were happening. No one is as radical as those groups compared to Asian studies or such. BTW, what the hell do you do to use Chicano studies?

Knowing that I majored in Chicano Studies, why don't you stop trying to attack me on that principle and instead gain insight on what exactly the subject teaches? It certainly does NOT teach kids to feel oppressed or have a sense of resentment towards others. Chicano Studies simply teaches the history of Hispanic people, not just Mexicans but all Latinos. I know all about Hernan Cortes and the Conquistadores. But I also know all about Monteczuma and the Aztec. I know about the Mexican-American war and how that changed the borders of the southwest. As a matter of fact my mother's side is from New Mexico. So they never crossed the border, the border crossed them. I know about the civil rights movement from the Chicano perspective. But most importantly I know the history of MY People. You can call me un-American if you choose to, but Hispanic people are unique in that we are a people of mixed race and mixed culture. I will refuse to apologize for wanting to learn more about the history of my roots. As far as feelings of resentment towards others, I would not say I was taught to do so. I was taught the FULL TRUTH. What I chose to gain from that perspective is I feel that Aztecs were and Mayans were treated with the same respect as the Native people of the United States, very little. They were raped, they were enslaved, they were largely wiped out. But the difference between Chicanos and Native Americans is that that same European blood that mistreated Natives is prevalent in my own blood. I am mixed with Spanish and Native blood. Many Latinos have a prevalence of African blood as well. All Latinos are some type of mix of these three races. The term "mestizo" literally means mixed blood.

I did not start this thread unaware it was referring to public high schools and middle schools. I just told you a small percentage of what I learned about my roots. I WISH I had the OPPORTUNITY to learn some of that in high school. But my school district was predominantly caucasian as was the faculty. So it would have been hard to have enough interest in a Chicano Studies class. But this is an elective course, so don't try to make this sound like it is a core class everyone goes through. Chicano Studies is a magnified take on a specific part of American History. You DON'T have to be Chicano to take it. How is that any different than the World War II elective I took in 7th grade? I don't know anyone who was in World War II. How is that any different than the African-American Literature course I took as a junior in high school? I'm not black.

What the hell do I do to use Chicano Studies? This question seems a little off topic and an attempt to attack me personally but I'll answer it nonetheless.

Well since I am only 23 years old, I have yet to start my career. But I am currently in my 2nd semester at University of Denver Law School. So I will be a lawyer. As a matter of fact, my older brother took a very similar path. He went to University of Colorado and majored in History. People say the same thing. What the hell do you do with a history major, teach? Yes you can choose to become a teacher, but if you know that you will be going to law school anyways, you can major in a subject that interests you. He went on to graduate from Yale Law School. He is now one of the top lawyers in the state of Colorado at the relatively young age of 39. Now I can only hope to become as successful as my older brother but I am certainly striving to.

So since we're asking personal questions what the hell did you study in college and what the hell did you do with it?

sixtimeseight
05-13-2010, 08:30 AM
you have quite the post history, not going to get into a wrestling match with a mental midget. you can't do anything without profanity.

That's what I thought.

Next.

bfoflcommish
05-13-2010, 08:33 AM
I was asked to join LA RAZA when I started at Metro State, went to first meeting walked out about 15 minutes after it started. Never met so many people act so uppity yet try to portray themselves as being so down.

I was like really, you grew up in Westminster Co you didnt have it bad and are not being held down.

I dont see anything wrong with this, go to public school and learn basics, you want to take ethnic studies in college on your own dime by all means have at it, but not in public schools

Pseudofool
05-13-2010, 08:34 AM
Then you had a weak study course on American History. You owe your life, station, and education to George Washington you ****ing loser.
Blame my highschool. No ones doubting Washington's contributions to my freedoms. But I am doubting the relevance of the cherry tree story, and myriad of other mythical nonsense we learn in American History highschool classes. Nice straw man though.

bfoflcommish
05-13-2010, 08:37 AM
After reading through 4 pages after my OP, it has become quite clear to me that many of you do not even know what the word Chicano means.

Chicano means Mexican-American. There are no Chicanos in Mexico. Chicanos are AMERICANS of Mexican descent. Equating Chicanos to Mexicans is like equating Blacks to Africans. Carlos Santana is Chicano not Mexican. Mark Sanchez: Chicano. Michael Jordan is African-American , not African. Martin Luther King: Black. As Edward James Olmos a Chicano, said in Stand and Deliver, "entiendes mendes? "

Also, most of you are saying Chicanos and Mexicans are one in the same, could not be more off base. Culturally, they are quite different. Many Chicanos don't even speak a word of Spanish. Chicanos like rock n roll & hip-hop, not Mariachi and Bachata. Our food has a lot of differences as well. Chicanos ARE Americans. Mexicans hate on us for it all the time, trust me. Denver Public Schools have much conflict from this exact issue. Mexicans consider Chicanos sellouts, a watered-down version, unpure. For those of you who are African-American, you should relate quite well. I know Africans hate on you guys all the time too. Same concept.

I hope this clears up most of the ignorance that's been said in this thread.


Mexicans do not like Chicanos and Chicanos don't like Mexicans at all.

good takes!

Pseudofool
05-13-2010, 08:40 AM
I am totally opposed to "groupism." This country is founded on the ideal that rights are the province of the individual, not the group. Since the sixties, this ideal has been polluted by the concepts of group identity. Besides, I know when I was in college, I never saw an "ethnic studies" course that wasn't simply a cover for Marxism, which relies on groupism. And the reality is that all of this groupism has only a single goal in mind: Political power. American history is complex. To view it through a philosophical scheme that tries to characterize it as "bad" or "good" is simplistic to the point of moronic. Was Rome good or bad? Was Greece good or bad? Stupid questions. Anyway, it's just another form of reducing self-pride to the level of egotism: My "group" is the best. We're the moral group. We're the righteous group. blah blah blah.

This stuff is as old as humanity. How many native tribes in America considered themselves "The people?" How many tribes in human history have considered themselves "The chosen ones?" Nearly all of them. Ha! It always boils down to the same old ****, "Our group is the best and you foreigners are evil, stupid, bigoted, greedy,..." all the various failings of humanity, while "our" group has none of those failings. Yeah, right.

America is a concept. An ideal. That's how it should be taught. There have been failings, like slavery, and there have been successes, like the abolition movement. We have gone backwards, like the Red Scare, and we have led the way, like the Marshall Plan. Teach all the philosophies of governance and when you get to America, compare. Do you want to believe in the ideal that we are all, as individuals, created equal and are endowed by our creator with certain rights? Or do you want your children to learn that they are members of a group and that the group will define their identity? America is a work in progress. I don't agree with the idea of tearing it down before it's fulfilled its promise simply to satisfy some "group" egotism. Nowhere in our Constitution is there a place for a separate "group" identity or "group" rights. And where we have made room for such considerations (the handicapped, for instance) it has been for a compelling reason.

Besides, I believe that the American ideal is much closer to the path of enlightenment as it is designed in this universe. Enlightenment is the province of the individual. We come into this world alone, and we shall leave alone. That understanding we glean from our experiences creates an individual experience and "self"-realization. There is no such thing as a "group realization." Our government was designed by the founders to clear the path for the individual to pursue his or her own happiness. Groupism attacks the roots of our democracy. I'm all for tearing it out like the disease it represents.

Hopefully, we can teach the ideals of America, against the truth of her history, in such a way that our children, of all races, colors and creeds, will grow up proud to say, "I am an American" rather than rely on a hyphenated identity.Funny how when we try to teach the most generic and inclusive version of American history, it tends to follow the struggle and rise of White Europeans in America, rather than any of the other myriad people who have lived here as long as White people have.

Democracy of course demands "groupism," without groupism Democracy would barely work--you have parties, political action groups, rallies, lobbies etc. all born out of groupism; it's in the damn fabric of our political process. Sure it'd be nice to live in a fairy tale land were our distinct traits never affected our day-to-day lives, but that's not the case.

Sure we should always look for what we have in common, what makes us similar than what separates us, and we can teach that along side teaching diversity; such ideas aren't mutually exclusive.

Cultural diversity is good and _sacred_ thing. It's part of our American Identity. Only members of social majorities rally against cultural diversity, which when you think about, is pretty ugly, and also has an equally ugly tradition in American History.

footstepsfrom#27
05-13-2010, 09:00 AM
I actually read the bill. This is the exact wording.

A. A SCHOOL DISTRICT OR CHARTER SCHOOL IN THIS STATE SHALL NOT INCLUDE
IN ITS PROGRAM OF INSTRUCTION ANY COURSES OR CLASSES THAT INCLUDE ANY OF THE
FOLLOWING:
1. PROMOTE THE OVERTHROW OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT.
2. PROMOTE RESENTMENT TOWARD A RACE OR CLASS OF PEOPLE.
3. ARE DESIGNED PRIMARILY FOR PUPILS OF A PARTICULAR ETHNIC GROUP.
4. ADVOCATE ETHNIC SOLIDARITY INSTEAD OF THE TREATMENT OF PUPILS AS
INDIVIDUALS.

It also goes on to say "3. COURSES OR CLASSES THAT INCLUDE THE HISTORY OF ANY ETHNIC GROUP AND THAT ARE OPEN TO ALL STUDENTS, UNLESS THE COURSE OR CLASS VIOLATES SUBSECTION A."

I really don't see anything wrong with this. No where does it "ban schools from teaching Chicano studies". At least the official language of the bill doesn't

And for the record, I am an unabashed liberal and have criticized the Arizona immigration law in the WRP forum.

But I don't see anything wrong in this bill. Its pretty much standard in every state, even extreme left ones like Oregon. I don't see why its an issue.
Let me get this straight; anything that 1) is designed for a specific ethnic group, and 2) anything that "promotes resentment towards a race or class of people" are exluded from their curriculum. How exactly do we tell the truth about the fact that we enslaved, raped, murdered, tortured and conducted a state sponsored wholesale hijacking of another culture for 250 years...AND we spent another 100 years trying to do so despite so-called legal protections...without "promoting resentment" or designing this message for a specific group...ie; those whose history we subjugated?

If you can't see this for what it is...well I have nowhere to go with that. Take the blinders off...seriously.

Requiem
05-13-2010, 09:12 AM
Hell, I minored in anthropology.

Should have majored.

Rohirrim
05-13-2010, 09:39 AM
Funny how when we try to teach the most generic and inclusive version of American history, it tends to follow the struggle and rise of White Europeans in America, rather than any of the other myriad people who have lived here as long as White people have.

Democracy of course demands "groupism," without groupism Democracy would barely work--you have parties, political action groups, rallies, lobbies etc. all born out of groupism; it's in the damn fabric of our political process. Sure it'd be nice to live in a fairy tale land were our distinct traits never affected our day-to-day lives, but that's not the case.

Sure we should always look for what we have in common, what makes us similar than what separates us, and we can teach that along side teaching diversity; such ideas aren't mutually exclusive.

Cultural diversity is good and _sacred_ thing. It's part of our American Identity. Only members of social majorities rally against cultural diversity, which when you think about, is pretty ugly, and also has an equally ugly tradition in American History.

I think what this law is trying to address is where the teaching of diversity becomes a political weapon. You seem to be implying that I'm being naive. The same could be said about your take. I took diversity courses in college. One, specifically, I took with Glenn Morris. If you don't know who he is, look him up. That class was a political indoctrination based openly on Marxist thought. America was all evil, all the time. I have no problem teaching the transgressions of America, especially in college, and I can lay them out chapter and verse. I've also learned about many other philosophies and forms of government humans have tried, and their successes and failures.

I happen to believe that many "ethnic studies" courses have a separate, political agenda that is inherently anti-American. I've experienced it first hand. Bias from the Left is no less onerous than bias from the Right. I have no problem with professors teaching this stuff at the college level. College students have a much broader ability to choose their classes and recognize ideologically biased curricula and take it for what it's worth. High school kids? Not so much.

Also, what I'm talking about when I say "groupism" in the above post refers to when culture is used as cover for a separate agenda. I'm not talking about political action groups or parties that people can join or leave at will. I'm talking about racial groups being used to indoctrinate a particular agenda. Read footsteps' post above. Yes, America has done evil to many groups. Blacks, browns, whites, yellows, etc. Almost every group can claim some transgression done them in American history from slavery, to racism, to oppression, to prejudice, exclusion and even, in some instances, genocidal attacks and wars.

But do I want children to learn that the transgressions done against their group requires that they accept the principle that American ideals are a failure and her principles of government are, by their very nature, oppressive? Or do I want them to learn that many mistakes have been made, crimes have been committed, and America has failed to live up to its promise, and yet, the core concepts of individual freedom enshrined in her documents are still the strongest foundation to build on? What I have seen in some ethnic studies classes is the implication that the American form of government is a primarily "white" idea and needs to be overthrown and replaced. With what? Usually, some form of Marxism. extralife already subscribed to this idea in a post above, that these were stupid, "white," ideals.

As a taxpayer, I would certainly oppose the teaching of such ideas in any school my child attended. Let them confront the Marxist professors in college when they have a little more ammo of experience and knowledge to stand up to these ideas. Cultural diversity is fine, and should be taught and encouraged. Using culturally diversity as a delivery package for political indoctrination, usually of a Marxist nature, is an entirely separate issue. If you don't think that's a real issue, go back and watch the video of that Chicano high school teacher in the other thread. What is he teaching his kids? That America is the enemy. Should American taxpayers pay to have that taught to their children?

The first thing the Marxist teaches is that there is no such thing as a universal principle or experience. I believe that is bull****.

Rohirrim
05-13-2010, 09:48 AM
Should have majored.

I majored in the English Writing Program. It's what enabled me to find a good job in health care. ;D

Tombstone RJ
05-13-2010, 09:50 AM
Knowing that I majored in Chicano Studies, why don't you stop trying to attack me on that principle and instead gain insight on what exactly the subject teaches? It certainly does NOT teach kids to feel oppressed or have a sense of resentment towards others. Chicano Studies simply teaches the history of Hispanic people, not just Mexicans but all Latinos. I know all about Hernan Cortes and the Conquistadores. But I also know all about Monteczuma and the Aztec. I know about the Mexican-American war and how that changed the borders of the southwest. As a matter of fact my mother's side is from New Mexico. So they never crossed the border, the border crossed them. I know about the civil rights movement from the Chicano perspective. But most importantly I know the history of MY People. You can call me un-American if you choose to, but Hispanic people are unique in that we are a people of mixed race and mixed culture. I will refuse to apologize for wanting to learn more about the history of my roots. As far as feelings of resentment towards others, I would not say I was taught to do so. I was taught the FULL TRUTH. What I chose to gain from that perspective is I feel that Aztecs were and Mayans were treated with the same respect as the Native people of the United States, very little. They were raped, they were enslaved, they were largely wiped out. But the difference between Chicanos and Native Americans is that that same European blood that mistreated Natives is prevalent in my own blood. I am mixed with Spanish and Native blood. Many Latinos have a prevalence of African blood as well. All Latinos are some type of mix of these three races. The term "mestizo" literally means mixed blood.

I did not start this thread unaware it was referring to public high schools and middle schools. I just told you a small percentage of what I learned about my roots. I WISH I had the OPPORTUNITY to learn some of that in high school. But my school district was predominantly caucasian as was the faculty. So it would have been hard to have enough interest in a Chicano Studies class. But this is an elective course, so don't try to make this sound like it is a core class everyone goes through. Chicano Studies is a magnified take on a specific part of American History. You DON'T have to be Chicano to take it. How is that any different than the World War II elective I took in 7th grade? I don't know anyone who was in World War II. How is that any different than the African-American Literature course I took as a junior in high school? I'm not black.

What the hell do I do to use Chicano Studies? This question seems a little off topic and an attempt to attack me personally but I'll answer it nonetheless.

Well since I am only 23 years old, I have yet to start my career. But I am currently in my 2nd semester at University of Denver Law School. So I will be a lawyer. As a matter of fact, my older brother took a very similar path. He went to University of Colorado and majored in History. People say the same thing. What the hell do you do with a history major, teach? Yes you can choose to become a teacher, but if you know that you will be going to law school anyways, you can major in a subject that interests you. He went on to graduate from Yale Law School. He is now one of the top lawyers in the state of Colorado at the relatively young age of 39. Now I can only hope to become as successful as my older brother but I am certainly striving to.

So since we're asking personal questions what the hell did you study in college and what the hell did you do with it?

So how do you feel about La Raza and it's stated goals? I'm confused. Are you siding with their stated goals of basically annexing the SW USA? Or, are you happy with your heritage but prefer to remain a USA citizan?

If you had to pick a side, which side would you pick, and why?

Pseudofool
05-13-2010, 10:28 AM
There's a lot of thoughtful stuff, so I'll take my time here.
I think what this law is trying to address is where the teaching of diversity becomes a political weapon. You seem to be implying that I'm being naive. The same could be said about your take. I took diversity courses in college. One, specifically, I took with Glenn Morris. If you don't know who he is, look him up. That class was a political indoctrination based openly on Marxist thought. America was all evil, all the time. I have no problem teaching the transgressions of America, especially in college, and I can lay them out chapter and verse. I've also learned about many other philosophies and forms of government humans have tried, and their successes and failures. I think all teaching is political. Can't get away from it. And I agree with the spirit behind the idea that education as an overt political weapon should be frowned upon. But I don't think that's what's happening in public highschool ethnic studies classrooms. Not even close.

Like you infer, we're dealing with a whole other beast in universities. But it takes only minimal restraint to teach a class in Marxism without resorting to anti-Americanism. (My cursory search of Morris didn't reveal much, but I'll explore later because I'm interested.) I've taken all kinds of left-fringe classes, and I've never felt they were Anti-American, maybe your experience is rather singular. I don't know. But since you bring up Marxism, I can't help but think of Althusser here, you're talking about education as an ideological state apparatus, save in reverse. It's interesting.

I happen to believe that many "ethnic studies" courses have a separate, political agenda that is inherently anti-American. I've experienced it first hand. Bias from the Left is no less onerous than bias from the Right. I have no problem with professors teaching this stuff at the college level. College students have a much broader ability to choose their classes and recognize ideologically biased curricula and take it for what it's worth. High school kids? Not so much.Well, we need to define anti-american. I don't doubt that there's coherence subtext that wishes to redefine Americanism more broadly. I'm fine with that. Most Chicano literature I've read dealt with kind of modern diaspora that I feel pretty keenly as a White American. Feeling disconnected, losing long-held heritage is something we all feel as Americans. My Norwegian grandmother's recipes probably die with her (well, I'll save them), and it's not a good thing.

Also, what I'm talking about when I say "groupism" in the above post refers to when culture is used as cover for a separate agenda. I'm not talking about political action groups or parties that people can join or leave at will. I'm talking about racial groups being used to indoctrinate a particular agenda. Read footsteps' post above. Yes, America has done evil to many groups. Blacks, browns, whites, yellows, etc. Almost every group can claim some transgression done them in American history from slavery, to racism, to oppression, to prejudice, exclusion and even, in some instances, genocidal attacks and wars.How many lobbies and PACs develop around boundaries of race, culture, language and religion. Given the racial, cultural, religious uniformity of one the major parties is it really so difficult as to concede that grouping by born-with traits is pretty common in American society?

But do I want children to learn that the transgressions done against their group requires that they accept the principle that American ideals are a failure and her principles of government are, by their very nature, oppressive? Or do I want them to learn that many mistakes have been made, crimes have been committed, and America has failed to live up to its promise, and yet, the core concepts of individual freedom enshrined in her documents are still the strongest foundation to build on? What I have seen in some ethnic studies classes is the implication that the American form of government is a primarily "white" idea and needs to be overthrown and replaced. With what? Usually, some form of Marxism. extralife already subscribed to this idea in a post above, that these were stupid, "white," ideals. You're concerns are pretty fair here. But I think they are well-considered by the practitioners of such disciplines. Frankly, I don't think you'll see a lot of teacher's-as-advocates in public education (save some rogue exceptions). And the people that design the curriculum, say from universities, press themselves with the very questions you raise. Look, I'm pretty cynical, but I don't think there's an underbelly of antiamericanism behind ethnic studies.

As a taxpayer, I would certainly oppose the teaching of such ideas in any school my child attended. Let them confront the Marxist professors in college when they have a little more ammo of experience and knowledge to stand up to these ideas. Cultural diversity is fine, and should be taught and encouraged. Using culturally diversity as a delivery package for political indoctrination, usually of a Marxist nature, is an entirely separate issue. If you don't think that's a real issue, go back and watch the video of that Chicano high school teacher in the other thread. What is he teaching his kids? That America is the enemy. Should American taxpayers pay to have that taught to their children?Should we let one rogue teacher color our whole understanding of an entire curriculum? The problem is, as you also point out, bias. Bias is a case by case issue, not something that we can infer by subject matter.

The first thing the Marxist teaches is that there is no such thing as a universal principle or experience. I believe that is bull****.That's not my understanding of Marxism, or at least neo-Marxism, but I'm not going to argue the point. And it sounds like your problem is with specific Marxist principles and one particular ethnic studies teacher, and not with ethnic studies in general.

Again, the danger is as we dissuade antiamericanism out of fear, we end up streamlining our history so that it resembles the dominant ethnic and religious group.

iforgotmypassword
05-13-2010, 10:42 AM
I'm a history major and we probably learn more about other cultures than we do American culture.

I like this law.

Houshyamama
05-13-2010, 10:50 AM
Again, no one is saying that American History should take a back seat. Come on. Just quit with the straw men.

Yet, it does. That's what we're trying to avoid.

Pseudofool
05-13-2010, 10:53 AM
Yet, it does. That's what we're trying to avoid.It?

Pseudofool
05-13-2010, 10:54 AM
I'm a history major and we probably learn more about other cultures than we do American culture.

I like this law.Evidently you're not very good at picking your classes. History didn't begin 1776, but I didn't major in history either so what do I know.

Carmelo15
05-13-2010, 10:54 AM
So how do you feel about La Raza and it's stated goals? I'm confused. Are you siding with their stated goals of basically annexing the SW USA? Or, are you happy with your heritage but prefer to remain a USA citizan?

If you had to pick a side, which side would you pick, and why?

Annexing the SW is a f'ing joke! La Raza is a pretty radical group. I disagree with them on a lot of their other ideas as well. I am am American proud of my heritage rather than letting myself be completely assimilated. I try to keep n touch with my culture and am proud of it as well. To me that's what a Chicano is. I feel like I'm physical evidence that Chicano Studies is not a threat to society at all. I'm just as American as anyone.

ghwk
05-13-2010, 10:55 AM
Here's my take, like it is going to matter here.

In high scholl American history really should be an overview course of major figures and events since the inception of our country. It should include major figures and/or ethnicities from the role they played in shaping the country not the race or ethnicity itself. So that would probably mean that it wouldn't be "fairly balanced" from a race or ethnicity standpoint but would be inclusive of movements and individuals that shaped the course of the country.

Chicano studies or ANY ethnicity studies should not be taught in high school from my point of view because there is no way to then stop from being required to teach every other ethnicity based course demanded by that particular group. Where you go to high school, public anyway, is not a matter of choice, it is dictated by boundary and local politics. The public school system at that level cannot afford this level of specializiation in currucula from an economic or diversity standpoint.

College is different, you get to choose what school you want to go to if you can afford it and your grades are good enough. You can go to schools with strong ethnic curriculums if you want to, or not. You don't have that choice in high school.

I support the law and what it is trying to do at the level it is trying to do it.

broncocalijohn
05-13-2010, 10:56 AM
I did not start this thread unaware it was referring to public high schools and middle schools.
What the hell do I do to use Chicano Studies? This question seems a little off topic and an attempt to attack me personally but I'll answer it nonetheless.



So since we're asking personal questions what the hell did you study in college and what the hell did you do with it?

Well, at least you admit you went off the deep end and were wrong about the law. Asking about what you do with Chicano studies as a major isnt attacking you; It is a legit question. You not only took the class but majored in it. So it seems you wanted to go in this direction for a career. Dont get your panties all tied in a bunch. I thought it was a fair question and was a little off topic. I am sure I nailed you before in the WPF on the "I didnt jump the border, the border jumped me." No one is trying to kick you out especially since you and your family are from here. You do have the option to move you and your family over on the other side of that border if you think you and "your" people are being rediculed and oppressed. You have an option like night and day. I would say you like it here and arent moving to that corrupt country anytime soon. So, since this is for public schools only, how do you feel now about the law? I learned much of the Aztecs and Latin America in public schools without having its own course.
BTW: I started college and ended up quitting to start my own business. May 5th (go figure) was my 21st anniversary of my first job.

Houshyamama
05-13-2010, 11:19 AM
It?

American History.

Let me use an extreme example. I went to Hawaii a few years back and this 16 year old kid was helping us with our scuba gear on the boat. I began talking to him and about his schooling and he went to Hawaiian public school where they teach a 'native first' approach to life.

THE KID DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT COLORADO WAS. I realize Geography is not History, but if he didn't even know what Colorado was do you think he knew about representation and America's fight to be free of British rule? Or about the Mexican-American War? Normandy? Nagasaki? Bay of Pigs?

Teach the kids world history. Then teach them why America was born, the good the bad and the ugly. Teach them what it means to be an American. THEN, teach them about the different cultures that exist within the melting pot we call home...

Houshyamama
05-13-2010, 11:20 AM
Wow, this thread is just full of it.

http://www.reelcomix.com/admin/admin_images/ignorance-is-bliss.jpg

No u

Tombstone RJ
05-13-2010, 11:25 AM
Here's my take, like it is going to matter here.

In high scholl American history really should be an overview course of major figures and events since the inception of our country. It should include major figures and/or ethnicities from the role they played in shaping the country not the race or ethnicity itself. So that would probably mean that it wouldn't be "fairly balanced" from a race or ethnicity standpoint but would be inclusive of movements and individuals that shaped the course of the country.

Chicano studies or ANY ethnicity studies should not be taught in high school from my point of view because there is no way to then stop from being required to teach every other ethnicity based course demanded by that particular group. Where you go to high school, public anyway, is not a matter of choice, it is dictated by boundary and local politics. The public school system at that level cannot afford this level of specializiation in currucula from an economic or diversity standpoint.

College is different, you get to choose what school you want to go to if you can afford it and your grades are good enough. You can go to schools with strong ethnic curriculums if you want to, or not. You don't have that choice in high school.

I support the law and what it is trying to do at the level it is trying to do it.


All I know is how my public school system worked. And, I must say, it was a great system. I've already told people about 7 Ancient Civilizations that was an elective course in Junior High.

So, I will start with my Jr. High experience. In 7th grade, we studied "American History" that is, the formation of the first 13 colonies, the war for Independence, the Constitution, Bill of Rights, Taxation without Representation, all that stuff. I believe that was the first part of the year. Next, we studied how the governement works, that is, how a bill becomes a law, how people get elected, etc.

In 8th grade, we studied Colorado history, and I believe that's when I took the 7 Ancient Civ elective course. Colorado history incompassed things like Manifest Destiny (which was frowned upon from a historical perspect, that is, it was not a good part of our history as a nation as it lead to confrontation with Native peoples). Colorado history incompassed much studies about Native Americans, Euro settlers, mining, how towns were formed, etc. It was in this class that I wrote a paper on Victor, Colorado (silver mining capital of Colorado!!).

9th grade was elective stuff. I believe I studied US Politics. I remember writing a paper on Terrorism and I interviewed a Jewish guy who lived in Israel for a while (he worked for my dad), his name was Russell.

In 10th grade, I remember a history class that focused on Colorado in particular, and Western US history in general. This is the class I read the book "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" Basically, the class focused on Native American issues and we studied the different tribes indigenous to the Western US, we also studied how the West was settled.

So, that was all from 7th to 10th grade. I don't think I studied history in 11th or 12th grade as I think I took electives like "Physcology".

Anyhow, it was an extrememly well rounded education, before going to college, IMHO.

no-pseudo-fan
05-13-2010, 11:38 AM
Chicano has nothing to do with Mexico, it has to do with identity. There was an entire movement that went on during the same time as the Civil Rights movement. Chicanos do not come from Mexico, they come from Aztlan.

Not to make any long winded points. Things are not "Black and White", but History has been taught with a European point of view for as long as I can remember. Who discovered America? The Hudson River? The Rocky Mountains? I wish I had the nerve while I was in school to put, I don't know and neither do you because the Native American history has been destroyed.

I am not too old, but growing up the only Mexican Face I saw on TV was Mario Lopez playing AC(Albert Clifford) Slater? That is a shame. For those of us of Mexican Heritage we are taught that dark is ugly. You still see older ladies avoiding the sun like the plague to keep their Indian skin from getting too dark. I can not comment on African American view on skin color, but it makes me sick to see people so concerned with skin color. Integrity of a person is much more important.

baja
05-13-2010, 11:40 AM
American History.

Let me use an extreme example. I went to Hawaii a few years back and this 16 year old kid was helping us with our scuba gear on the boat. I began talking to him and about his schooling and he went to Hawaiian public school where they teach a 'native first' approach to life.

THE KID DIDN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT COLORADO WAS. I realize Geography is not History, but if he didn't even know what Colorado was do you think he knew about representation and America's fight to be free of British rule? Or about the Mexican-American War? Normandy? Nagasaki? Bay of Pigs?

Teach the kids world history. Then teach them why America was born, the good the bad and the ugly. <b> Teach them what it means to be an American. </b> THEN, teach them about the different cultures that exist within the melting pot we call home...

What does it mean to be an American?

Houshyamama
05-13-2010, 11:49 AM
What does it mean to be an American?

I guess that's a bit subjective, but it definitely means to value individual freedom. To respect and honor the sacrifices and acts that generations before us endured to give us the freedom that we enjoy. I would be all about teaching young kids about Chicano history from within the framework of being an American. I am against the divisive acts and intentions of the La Raza movement.

footstepsfrom#27
05-13-2010, 12:48 PM
What does it mean to be an American?
Depends...do you want the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Or shall we go with the approved, official version, sanctioned by the wise people who govern us? That's the real crux of this dilemma...

What could be more American than that?

Tombstone RJ
05-13-2010, 01:20 PM
Depends...do you want the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Or shall we go with the approved, official version, sanctioned by the wise people who govern us? That's the real crux of this dilemma...

What could be more American than that?

your pathetic

extralife
05-13-2010, 01:27 PM
*you're lololol

extralife
05-13-2010, 01:28 PM
But you do? As what, the melting pot that never melts? Yes, let us celebrate our divisions until we're at each other's throats. I'd prefer we "celebrate" what brings us together, not what drives us apart. I have no problem with studying cultures. Hell, I minored in anthropology. I studied all sorts of cultures. Cultures are great fun, and interesting. Of course, what I'm talking about is not cultures, it's principles and ideals. I suggest that people who don't like ours not be allowed to teach antithetical principles and ideals as preferable in our own schools. Okay? I don't approve of radical madrassas teaching children how to make themselves into a bomb, why should I support teaching children that our way of life is wrong and our government evil? Yeah, that will create great citizens. Let's teach them not to believe in our founding principles. You've reached a whole new pinnacle of stupid.

If your blithering rant is any example of the garbage being taught in these classes, I can't blame Arizona for ending them.

BTW, there's no such thing as "white" culture dominating anybody. I'm sure there are just as many divisions in "white culture" (Russian, Italian, Irish, English, etc etc etc) as there are in "brown" culture. Then we could go into economic divisions which is a whole different thesis in itself. I realize, for the simple minded, it's much easier to just go with white, brown, black, yellow, and whatever. But those divisions are meaningless except when manipulated as political entities for specific political agendas.

I see that you learned an important concept in your ethnic studies: That the ideals of the founders were "white" ideals so why should anybody of a different color group believe in them? Right? After all, those are just whitey's "stupid ideals." And I quote.

I don't think you know how to read, so I'm going to leave this one alone. I didn't say any of this garbage you're rambling on about.

Ugly Duck
05-14-2010, 09:32 AM
Why not learn as much as we can about as much as we can?

Maybe its better that Arizonan students don't learn that many hundreds of Mexicans and Mexican-Americans were lynched without legal recourse in the Southwest. Maybe its better that they don't discover that the Texas Rangers operated with state authority to simply run Mexicans off their land with extreme and violent prejudice - and stood by as Mexican-Americans were lynched up until the 1950's. Or learn about Eisenhower's Operation Wetback that deported many Mexican-Americans to Mexico. Or that Mexican-American children were systematically subjected to segregation in education up until Lyndon Johnson put a stop to it. Who wants those kinds of facts rolling around in their kid's heads? In this case... Arizonans choose bliss even if it's packaged up with ignorance.

http://www.legendsofamerica.com/photos-americanhistory/Man%20hanged,%20C.H.%20Graves,%201901.jpg

Carmelo15
05-14-2010, 10:45 AM
Maybe its better that Arizonan students don't learn that many hundreds of Mexicans and Mexican-Americans were lynched without legal recourse in the Southwest. Maybe its better that they don't discover that the Texas Rangers operated with state authority to simply run Mexicans off their land with extreme and violent prejudice - and stood by as Mexican-Americans were lynched up until the 1950's. Or learn about Eisenhower's Operation Wetback that deported many Mexican-Americans to Mexico. Or that Mexican-American children were systematically subjected to segregation in education up until Lyndon Johnson put a stop to it. Who wants those kinds of facts rolling around in their kid's heads? In this case... Arizonans choose bliss even if it's packaged up with ignorance.

http://www.legendsofamerica.com/photos-americanhistory/Man%20hanged,%20C.H.%20Graves,%201901.jpg
/end thread

Rohirrim
05-14-2010, 12:29 PM
Maybe its better that Arizonan students don't learn that many hundreds of Mexicans and Mexican-Americans were lynched without legal recourse in the Southwest. Maybe its better that they don't discover that the Texas Rangers operated with state authority to simply run Mexicans off their land with extreme and violent prejudice - and stood by as Mexican-Americans were lynched up until the 1950's. Or learn about Eisenhower's Operation Wetback that deported many Mexican-Americans to Mexico. Or that Mexican-American children were systematically subjected to segregation in education up until Lyndon Johnson put a stop to it. Who wants those kinds of facts rolling around in their kid's heads? In this case... Arizonans choose bliss even if it's packaged up with ignorance.

http://www.legendsofamerica.com/photos-americanhistory/Man%20hanged,%20C.H.%20Graves,%201901.jpg

So, what's the story behind that particular picture?

ghwk
05-14-2010, 01:32 PM
So, what's the story behind that particular picture?

So many answers to that question, all of them egregiously inappropriate.

And no Carmelo, it isn't end thread. The thread is about Chicano studies in public schools. The events described in association with the picture should all be part of american history, the good bad and the ugly.

baja
05-14-2010, 01:36 PM
Depends...do you want the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Or shall we go with the approved, official version, sanctioned by the wise people who govern us? That's the real crux of this dilemma...

What could be more American than that?

I challenge you to post your truth.

Rohirrim
05-14-2010, 02:16 PM
Well, I guess since it appears that some Americans (well, we're supposed to assume they're Americans) seem to have hung some Mexican (well, he appears to be Mexican - for all we know, this picture is from Argentina) then I guess we should shudder with white guilt and give amnesty to the 20 million illegal aliens now in the U.S.

Man! I feel sanctified!

Archer81
05-14-2010, 02:19 PM
Well, I guess since it appears that some Americans (well, we're supposed to assume they're Americans) seem to have hung some Mexican (well, he appears to be Mexican - for all we know, this picture is from Argentina) then I guess we should shudder with white guilt and give amnesty to the 20 million illegal aliens now in the U.S.

Man! I feel sanctified!


Totally.


:Broncos:

Ugly Duck
05-14-2010, 02:27 PM
Well, I guess since it appears that some Americans (well, we're supposed to assume they're Americans) seem to have hung some Mexican (well, he appears to be Mexican - for all we know, this picture is from Argentina) You, my fellow American, along with many others, would be well served by taking a good Chicano Studies class...

Killericon
05-14-2010, 02:27 PM
I'm a history major and we probably learn more about other cultures than we do American culture.

I like this law.

That's probably because there's more "other cultures" to study than there is "American culture".

Rohirrim
05-14-2010, 02:41 PM
You, my fellow American, along with many others, would be well served by taking a good Chicano Studies class...

I guess at some point you are going to provide the provenance on the picture?

Archer81
05-14-2010, 02:42 PM
You, my fellow American, along with many others, would be well served by taking a good Chicano Studies class...


No thanks. If I wanted to know how evil white people are I'd read the La Raza talking points.


:Broncos:

Ugly Duck
05-14-2010, 02:55 PM
I guess at some point you are going to provide the provenance on the picture? I believe that guy was Antonio Rodriguez lynched in 1901. But as one might imagine, pictures of lynchings are relatively rare due to their illegal nature. Not an isolated incident, just one victim of many. Mexican-Americans were victims of mob violence and "unsolved murders" into the 1960's, but here are some stats in the heyday of lynching:

"...between 1848 and 1879 Mexicans were lynched at a rate of 473 per 100,000 of population. This statistic is astounding even when compared with African American victims during the period scholars claim was most rife with mob violence--1880 to 1930--and in the most lynch-prone states in the South. During these years, the highest lynching rate for African Americans was in Mississippi, with 52.8 victims per 100,000 of population. On the basis of such comparison, the Mexican population of the United States between 1848 and 1879 faced unparalleled danger from mob violence. The growth of the Mexican population at the turn of the twentieth century and a decline in white-on-Mexican violence led to a substantial decline in the lynching rate after 1880. Nevertheless, the figure of 27.4 Mexican lynching victims per 100,000 of population for that period exceeds the statistics during the same time for black victims in some southern states and nearly equals that in others. Between 1880 and 1930, for instance, the lynching rate for African Americans in South Carolina and North Carolina respectively was 18.8 and 11.0 per 100,000 of population. In Alabama, the figure was 32.4. These figures suggest that Mexicans faced a similar risk of lynching as African Americans in some states of the Deep South."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2005/is_2_37/ai_111897839/pg_3/?tag=content;col1

Rohirrim
05-14-2010, 03:24 PM
Ah. Found the story:

RODRÍGUEZ, ANTONIO (1890–1910). Antonio Rodríguez, a twenty-year-old Mexican ranchhand from Las Vacas, Mexico, was the victim of a lynching in Rocksprings, Texas. He was charged with shooting and killing Mrs. Lem Henderson at her ranch home near Rocksprings on November 2, 1910. He was captured and arrested by a posse the next day at a neighboring farm, whence he was taken to Rocksprings and jailed. On the afternoon of November 4 a mob took him from his cell and burned him at the stake. His immediate and brutal execution without due process provoked immediate charges of racism and caused anti-American reactions all over Mexico, just as that country teetered on the brink of its revolution. Mobs raged through the streets of Mexico City and through towns along the Texas-Mexico border, attacking dozens of American businesses, assaulting and insulting American citizens, destroying the American flag, and making angry speeches that denounced all North Americans. El Diario del Hogar, a Mexico City daily, called the people of the United States "giants of the dollar, pygmies of culture and barbarous whites of the north."
http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/RR/fro99.html

Ugly Duck
05-14-2010, 04:05 PM
Ah. Found the story:

Thank you for that... I guess the guy in the pic was not Rodriguez cuz he was hung not burned at the stake. Pardon me for deflecting the discussion with an inflammatory pic. My intended point was that there is an unsavory Mexican-American history that most of us do not learn about unless we take a Chicano History class. Stuff that shouldn't get brushed under the rug cuz it offers a seldom seen perspective.... uncomfortable but true.

Tombstone RJ
05-14-2010, 04:12 PM
That's probably because there's more "other cultures" to study than there is "American culture".

American culture is about "other cultures" no? Melting pot and all...

Bronco_Beerslug
05-14-2010, 08:22 PM
Another AZ law designed/intended to garner support for the politicos who wrote it and support it. It's all the rage down there now and should get all these guys (and gals) reelected.

cutthemdown
05-14-2010, 08:49 PM
Another AZ law designed/intended to garner support for the politicos who wrote it and support it. It's all the rage down there now and should get all these guys (and gals) reelected.

Yep if you can polarize 60% onto one issue you can win any election. Hell maybe not even that.

Obama pretty much ran on health care and Bush and repubs suck right? They ran that into the ground.

No local politicians were people are fed up with illegal immigrants will use it to get elected. And people like the mayor of LA will use it to get re elected also. Maybe pissed off Angelenos will forget what a crappy mayor he has been etc etc.

The bad news for the feds is that when the states do this it makes them do something. It's a loser for them and really they would like a watered down policy that has tons of loopholes. That way it only looks like they are doing something.

Obama will be tested on this one. He's going to need some luck.

Archer81
05-14-2010, 08:50 PM
Yep if you can polarize 60% onto one issue you can win any election. Hell maybe not even that.

Obama pretty much ran on health care and Bush and repubs suck right? They ran that into the ground.

No local politicians were people are fed up with illegal immigrants will use it to get elected. And people like the mayor of LA will use it to get re elected also. Maybe pissed off Angelenos will forget what a crappy mayor he has been etc etc.

The bad news for the feds is that when the states do this it makes them do something. It's a loser for them and really they would like a watered down policy that has tons of loopholes. That way it only looks like they are doing something.

Obama will be tested on this one. He's going to need some luck.


2010 is gonna suck for incumbents. DC is gonna be different in 2011.


:Broncos:

Circle Orange
05-14-2010, 08:56 PM
Let me guess, you're white. The factions exist. It's not by choice. It's a matter of language and culture just as it's matter of race. One could say the same thing about religion, or the different denominations of christianity, and they would equally come off as oafishly.

Cultural diversity is a good thing because it bring a more nuanced view of morality, art, justice, etc. etc. If we're all the same, we have very little to offer one another.

Eh, you know how it is for some folk...the 21st century is hell. Pity we can't get more progressive, like, the 1200s. Back to the cave, dig it. http://scosoft.com/s/i/75c56108.gif

I guess people can cover their eyes and plug their ears. That'll make everything different go away. I hear that worked back in the day!

El Minion
05-14-2010, 09:13 PM
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:stirstir:

extralife
05-14-2010, 09:20 PM
Machete more like MaDefinitelygonnaseethat****inmoviegoddamnitsabout time

Garcia Bronco
05-15-2010, 07:58 AM
Such angry people. Take some time today to feel blessed for the things you already have.

Rohirrim
05-15-2010, 11:45 AM
Yep if you can polarize 60% onto one issue you can win any election. Hell maybe not even that.

Obama pretty much ran on health care and Bush and repubs suck right? They ran that into the ground.

No local politicians were people are fed up with illegal immigrants will use it to get elected. And people like the mayor of LA will use it to get re elected also. Maybe pissed off Angelenos will forget what a crappy mayor he has been etc etc.

The bad news for the feds is that when the states do this it makes them do something. It's a loser for them and really they would like a watered down policy that has tons of loopholes. That way it only looks like they are doing something.

Obama will be tested on this one. He's going to need some luck.

He doesn't need luck. He needs some guts. This is the simplest issue in the world to solve. It was already solved in the 80's by the Simpson-Mazzoli bill but the "fix" was never funded or implemented. First, you create a tamper proof, holographic social security card. Every American citizen is issued one. And please, let's not go hysterical about the privacy issues. Everybody in America already has one of these cards. We simply need to create one that can't be copied. Then, you go to your HR department and show them your new card. They look it up on the new government verification website that shows only this information about you to your employer:

1. That social security goes with your name
2. You currently reside in that city.
(That info is already in social security and census files).

Simple. If an employee cannot produce a card or if the verification system shows that the card does not belong to the person showing it, then any employer who continues to employ that person will be assessed a $5,000 fine. And they will be assessed that fine for every employee who cannot be verified. Any employer found to be employing an illegal alien under the table on a cash basis will be fined $10,000 per employee.

Problem over. Self-deportation begins en masse. No need to implement some kind of amnesty program or "path to citizenship" bull****. We already have one of those. Why waste taxpayer money creating a "new" one? Those people who can no longer work here can go home, go to their local American consulate, and begin the process of pursuing American citizenship - just like everybody else has the opportunity to do. Legally. Through the channels already in place. We already have various agricultural worker programs in place, and those would not be affected.

El Minion
05-15-2010, 04:35 PM
Machete more like MaDefinitelygonnaseethat****inmoviegoddamnitsabout time

Yeah, but look at what Machete is up against:

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Bronco Yoda
05-15-2010, 04:55 PM
this thread...

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OABB
05-15-2010, 05:31 PM
Such angry people. Take some time today to feel blessed for the things you already have.

**** you pussy.

Circle Orange
05-15-2010, 11:58 PM
Such angry people. Take some time today to feel blessed for the things you already have.

Burn, baby. Burn. http://scosoft.com/s/e/32864b97.gif http://scosoft.com/s/e/be10d8e.gif http://scosoft.com/s/e/75f8256.gif