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PaintballCLE
05-10-2010, 07:36 PM
Lets assume all players are just entering the league, 18-22 years old and you are building a team from scratch.

Which ONE player would you take first to build your team around?

this has nothing to do with teams, accomplishments, etc just the actual individual player.

Los Broncos
05-10-2010, 07:57 PM
James, offense, defense, leader, a freak physically.

scorpio
05-10-2010, 08:03 PM
There's an NBA thread?

TerrElway
05-10-2010, 08:04 PM
Hate his guts as a jazz fan but Kobe has been to the mountain top plenty. Lebron has been to...well, Cleveland. The man is a phenom but Kobe is a freaking assassin.

rmsanger
05-10-2010, 08:05 PM
Yawn, about as boring as Baseball for christ sake...

PaintballCLE
05-10-2010, 08:06 PM
I think its hands down Lebron.........although I wouldn't even put Kobe second, I would put Howard second becaue finding a dominant Center is rare now a days. Man if there was some way for Howard and Lebron to be on the same team, that would be epic.

So If i had to rank......

1. James
2. Howard
3. Kobe
4. Anthony
5. Durrant
6. Wade (for some reason I think he is very overrated) Great player, but not in the league of james and Kobe.

No I guess a more interesting question would be........Would you take a young Shaq over all of them?

IHaveALight
05-10-2010, 08:26 PM
Seeing as how we found the fountain of youth here, give me Jordan.
But to play along with your poll, Lebron easily.

GoBroncos84
05-10-2010, 08:27 PM
I'd have to take Kobe first, Lebron second. If we include a young Shaq, he was the most dominant player I have ever seen. A liability at the foul line, which hurts at critical moments in games, but he would still be worth taking.


You left off the best point guard in the NBA, Deron Williams. I'd take him over Carmelo or DWade

BMarsh615
05-10-2010, 08:32 PM
Oh my bad. To build my team around it would be LeBron. But I voted Kobe before reading the OP because I feel he is the better player.

broncswin
05-10-2010, 08:33 PM
Jordan...best ever...shaq would be two

listopencil
05-10-2010, 08:42 PM
Jordan.

RhymesayersDU
05-10-2010, 08:43 PM
I took Howard. You can't teach his size.

24champ
05-10-2010, 08:47 PM
Kobe, pretty simple reasoning...he has what all those other players on that poll lack.

That is...killer instinct. He's the only one that has come close to Jordan in that regard.

GoBroncos84
05-10-2010, 09:09 PM
Kobe, pretty simple reasoning...he has what all those other players on that poll lack.

That is...killer instinct. He's the only one that has come close to Jordan in that regard.

Agreed. I think LeBron has better overall skills, in that he can do so much on the court. He is the better team player. But Kobe can take over like no one else in the game today, and the best since Jordan. When he turns on that switch, he is near unstoppable. Until LeBron has some rings, its gotta be Kobe

Williams
05-10-2010, 09:13 PM
At least 1/5 of NBA fans are bandwagon Laker fans, even here on the mane, thus a poll of this nature will have skewed results. Laker fans are so deluded they actually believe Kobe has been MVP the past two years. Watch any game in LA for the sad evidence. I dont know how anyone could root for a guy that cries to refs after every missed shot.

No, Kobe... no one touched you. You missed that shot all by yourself. Be a man. Please stop flailing your arms and crying.

The obvious answer is Shaq. 2 - LeBron. 3 - Howard. 4 - Durrant.
...then Kobe.

24champ
05-10-2010, 09:22 PM
At least 1/5 of NBA fans are bandwagon Laker fans, even here on the mane, thus a poll of this nature will have skewed results. Laker fans are so deluded they actually believe Kobe has been MVP the past two years. Watch any game in LA for the sad evidence. I dont know how anyone could root for a guy that cries to refs after every missed shot.

No, Kobe... no one touched you. You missed that shot all by yourself. Be a man. Please stop flailing your arms and crying.

The obvious answer is Shaq. 2 - LeBron. 3 - Howard. 4 - Durrant.
...then Kobe.

Aaaand the Laker haters chime in...:giggle:

SonOfLe-loLang
05-10-2010, 09:55 PM
LeBron is insane. I couldnt imagine taking anyone else

worm
05-10-2010, 10:04 PM
at least 1/5 of nba fans are bandwagon laker fans, even here on the mane, thus a poll of this nature will have skewed results. Laker fans are so deluded they actually believe kobe has been mvp the past two years. Watch any game in la for the sad evidence. I dont know how anyone could root for a guy that cries to refs after every missed shot.

No, kobe... No one touched you. You missed that shot all by yourself. Be a man. Please stop flailing your arms and crying.

The obvious answer is shaq. 2 - lebron. 3 - howard. 4 - durrant.
...then kobe.

fail.

extralife
05-10-2010, 10:07 PM
If you didn't take LeBron, you fail at basketball. Kobe isn't even in his league physically, he's temperamental, most of his teammates hate him, and he'll give you those 6 for 30 nights every five games and then pout about it.

24champ
05-10-2010, 10:14 PM
If you didn't take LeBron, you fail at basketball. Kobe isn't even in his league physically, he's temperamental, most of his teammates hate him, and he'll give you those 6 for 30 nights every five games and then pout about it.

First of all Lebron plays a different position. But if I want to build a team around someone, it's Kobe. He has that killer instinct...he wills his way to win. I haven't seen LeBron show the same attitude, he plays like he is entitled to win something. Which is why he is ringless, they've tried to give Lebron all sorts of players on that Cavs team through the years...and he hasn't made a single one of them better. Just look at the series vs the aging Celtics. Jordan makes players better, Kobe makes players better, and to some extent Steve Nash. Lebron hasn't matured yet, he is all talent and no heart.

Paladin
05-10-2010, 10:19 PM
You gotta be shytting me. Ain't no poll gonna end no debate on this board......

montrose
05-10-2010, 10:31 PM
Kobe, then Wade. LeBron may be the "best" but there's something about Bryant's assassin mentality and championship pedigree that I don't see in LeBron - yet. Wade used to bug the crap out of me because I thought he was just a glorified flopper nut the way he stuck through with that crap of a team earned him some respect with me.

Now the two active players not included on that list I would take over these guys if they were 18-22:

1) Tim Duncan
2) Shaq

extralife
05-10-2010, 10:33 PM
Kobe makes players better

That's funny

Anyway, you're being stupid. The question is "who would you take at 22" and your answer is "well, Kobe is mature (a lie, but whatever) and has developed a killer instinct." Ok. What did Kobe have at 22, versus LeBron? After Shaq left, Kobe pouted and asked for a trade after all those players that he made better bought him either no playoff birth, or a first round exit. Now he's suddenly mature and a team leader or whatever because God came down and decreed he have Pau Gasol as a wingman.

worm
05-10-2010, 10:35 PM
If you didn't take LeBron, you fail at basketball. Kobe isn't even in his league physically, he's temperamental, most of his teammates hate him, and he'll give you those 6 for 30 nights every five games and then pout about it.

I would probably build around LeBron as well. The dude is a freak. However, you fail at basketball by evaluating Kobe's game like this.

Which 'most' of his teammates hate him? Is he more 'temperamental' or 'pouting' than a guy unwilling to shake hands after a playoff series loss?

Kobe is the most mentally tough player in the league. He is the best closer in the league. He is the most creative shooter in the league.

As a fan, I prefer watching Kobe create over LeBron bullrush. As a GM, I probably start with LeBron.

24champ
05-10-2010, 10:40 PM
What did Kobe have at 22, versus LeBron?

A Championship Ring.


Thanks for playing.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-10-2010, 11:59 PM
Well f_ucking duh!

Championships:

Kobe - 4
LeBrag - 0

Oh wait - the question is slanted to give LeBrag the best chance to win (sort of like the officiating.) Ha!

Mogulseeker
05-11-2010, 12:03 AM
1 - Kobe
2 - Howard
3 - Carmelo
4 - LeBron

extralife
05-11-2010, 12:09 AM
A Championship Ring.


Thanks for playing.

Again, lets not be stupid. You don't think a 22 year old LeBron could win titles with Shaq in his prime? Hell, <i>I</i> could have won titles with Shaq in his prime.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-11-2010, 12:11 AM
^ You could just as easily ask if Shaq could win a title w/o a Kobe or a D-Wade in their prime.

extralife
05-11-2010, 12:12 AM
I suppose you could. Except the answer to that question is "yes." Also neither of those players were in their prime when they won titles.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-11-2010, 12:19 AM
I suppose you could. Except the answer to that question is "yes."

"Yes" Shaq won a title without a Kobe or a D-Wade? ???



Also neither of those players were in their prime when they won titles.

Neither Kobe or Wade were in their prime when they won titles? ???

24champ
05-11-2010, 12:33 AM
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UberBroncoMan
05-11-2010, 01:35 AM
Damn. I was hoping this would be.

NBA - Awesome

NBA - Pointless

extralife
05-11-2010, 01:48 AM
"Yes" Shaq won a title without a Kobe or a D-Wade? ???

Theoretical. Had he played in his prime without those guys, I think he still would have. He came close with Orlando.


Neither Kobe or Wade were in their prime when they won titles? ???

No, they weren't.

And while we never saw Shaq as an effective player without those guys (except before he was in his prime--and again, he got to the finals), we certainly saw Kobe and D-Wade both flounder after Shaq left. Do you honestly think the Lakers of today are anything without their enormous size advantage over every other team in the NBA?

Meanwhile, LeBron has back to back 60 win seasons, two MVP trophies, and two appearances in the conference finals (at least) with Mo ****in' Williams as his number 2 and 96 year old Big Z and Shaq as his big men.

DB-Freak
05-11-2010, 01:55 AM
Out of the choices, it's Lebron without a ****ing doubt.

Any other choice is completely wrong.

ZONA
05-11-2010, 02:28 AM
Are you guys dorks or what? You are not supposed to use accomplishments as a factor but you guys keep talking about rings and what they've done. You have to look at each player as if they were a rookie or a year 2 player and that's it.


I can't make up my mind who I would take first. It's a tie between the freak James and Durant. I think Durant has a chance to be the best player in the league in a few more years.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-11-2010, 02:59 AM
Theoretical.

That's what I thought - pure speculation.


No, they weren't.

You're saying Kobe was no longer in his prime when he won a title in 2000?

Wow - what age do you consider to be "prime?" :crazy:

Do you honestly think the Lakers of today are anything without their enormous size advantage over every other team in the NBA?

:oyvey:

Riiiiiight - Pau Gasol's only positive is his size.

Same for Odom.

That's just blind Laker hate talking.

Meanwhile, LeBron has back to back 60 win seasons, two MVP trophies, and two appearances in the conference finals (at least) with Mo ****in' Williams as his number 2 and 96 year old Big Z and Shaq as his big men.

Two "appearances in the conference finals."

If only they gave out trophies for that, eh? Ha!

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-11-2010, 03:01 AM
Out of the choices, it's Lebron without a ****ing doubt.

Any other choice is completely wrong.

Not if you want a guy who can actually win games that matter, close the deal, etc.

Then Kobe is the obvious choice.

cousinal11
05-11-2010, 05:09 AM
Where's Rondo?

Cmac821
05-11-2010, 05:15 AM
A Championship Ring.


Thanks for playing.

your avatar matches that phrase perfectly, lol

GoBroncos84
05-11-2010, 05:17 AM
At least 1/5 of NBA fans are bandwagon Laker fans, even here on the mane, thus a poll of this nature will have skewed results. Laker fans are so deluded they actually believe Kobe has been MVP the past two years. Watch any game in LA for the sad evidence. I dont know how anyone could root for a guy that cries to refs after every missed shot.

No, Kobe... no one touched you. You missed that shot all by yourself. Be a man. Please stop flailing your arms and crying.

The obvious answer is Shaq. 2 - LeBron. 3 - Howard. 4 - Durrant.
...then Kobe.

I chose Kobe, and I am a Jazz fan. I can't stand the Lakers. But I have great respect for their talent. They have knocked my team out of the playoffs three consecutive seasons. On any given night I root for the Jazz and "whoever plays the lakers". But that doesn't stop me from acknowledging that Kobe is the best in the game until someone takes his crown

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-11-2010, 05:23 AM
I chose Kobe, and I am a Jazz fan. I can't stand the Lakers. But I have great respect for their talent. They have knocked my team out of the playoffs three consecutive seasons. On any given night I root for the Jazz and "whoever plays the lakers". But that doesn't stop me from acknowledging that Kobe is the best in the game until someone takes his crown

Now that's what I call an objective take - not to mention a damn fine job of demonstrating that Haterade (purple and gold version) is Williams' beverage of choice.

Garcia Bronco
05-11-2010, 05:32 AM
Bill Russell

TonyR
05-11-2010, 05:38 AM
LeBron. I can't believe anyone thinks there's actually something to debate here.

Cool Breeze
05-11-2010, 06:14 AM
I can't believe someone actually picked Carmelo...

RhymesayersDU
05-11-2010, 06:29 AM
I can't believe someone actually picked Carmelo...

Neither can I, and I love the Nuggets. But then again I'm so down on Carmelo it's not even funny. See my rant in the NBA thread.

This is certainly an interesting conversation. Although it was pretty obvious that it would devolve into Kobe vs. LeBron. Sometimes I hate the anti-Lakers guys just as much as I hate the Laker fans. Look, I'm not Laker fan myself, but it's not blind hatred. I respect Kobe just as much as I hate him. On the other hand, sorry guys, he's not the best player to ever lace up Nikes either.

It's a hard convo to have because we're all just going to side with our guys. I know Laker fans aren't going to want to hear this, but I believe that if you paired LeBron with Shaq (in his prime, obviously) or with Gasol/Bynum/Artest(Or Ariza), you get the same outcome. Laker fans don't want to hear that, I know. However, with that said, we don't get to make up history as we see fit. Kobe has titles, LeBron doesn't. Period. It is what it is.

I do think that LeBron has more physical tools than Kobe, but it's not all physical. A ton of physical freaks have come through this league with talent. Strength, speed, size, being able to jump out of the building, etc, and many of them have done nothing. In essence, I've spent three paragraphs sitting on the fence. Damn.

Again, I actually chose Dwight. I think you build from the inside out. Granted, Michael Jordan's teams would beg to differ, but it is what it is. I'm of the opinion that you can find scorers and whatnot, but a 7 footer who can control the paint on the defensive end (even if his offensive game is lacking) is a rarity.

Man-Goblin
05-11-2010, 06:34 AM
Lebron gets the nod over Kobe for me, but it is VERY close. There's no counter-argument to Kobe having 4 titles and possibly a 5th on the way. But I think Lebron's supporting cast is no better than Kobe's immediately after Shaq left and Lebron's teams are contenders.

Here's the rest of this list...

3. Durrant
4. Howard
5. Carmelo
6. Wade (injuries, or else he'd be #4)

bfoflcommish
05-11-2010, 07:25 AM
If you didn't take LeBron, you fail at basketball. Kobe isn't even in his league physically, he's temperamental, most of his teammates hate him, and he'll give you those 6 for 30 nights every five games and then pout about it.

the choken one....um i mean chosen one as stated doesnt have the killer instinct like Kobe. He doesnt even take over in the weak East where as Kobe takes over in the better west.

Give me Kobe over Lebron anyday if its a game 7

ohiobronco2
05-11-2010, 07:32 AM
LeBron. I can't believe anyone thinks there's actually something to debate here.

This....Some people are really stupid. Kobe :rofl:

gunns
05-11-2010, 07:35 AM
Well f_ucking duh!

Championships:

Kobe - 4
LeBrag - 0

Oh wait - the question is slanted to give LeBrag the best chance to win (sort of like the officiating.) Ha!


Well gee, with that logic, that makes Aikman better than Elway. Please.

gunns
05-11-2010, 07:37 AM
Bill Russell

Oh damn. A man after my own heart! The greatest player to ever play the game. :thumbsup:

ohiobronco2
05-11-2010, 07:37 AM
Kobe, pretty simple reasoning...he has what all those other players on that poll lack.

That is...killer instinct. He's the only one that has come close to Jordan in that regard.

Thanks for playing.

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ohiobronco2
05-11-2010, 07:38 AM
Where's Rondo?

He is special. There is no doubt about it.

OABB
05-11-2010, 08:07 AM
Ryan clady.

24champ
05-11-2010, 08:09 AM
Thanks for playing.

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:spit:

One game, career not make.

TonyR
05-11-2010, 08:14 AM
This....Some people are really stupid. Kobe :rofl:

Kobe is a great player. The obvious choice of LeBron is no knock on him at all. But LeBron is clearly a better player at this stage of his career than Kobe was at the same stage. Kobe is a great talent, LeBron is a transcendent talent. If you asked every NBA front office exec what current player they'd choose to start a franchise with at the start of their career I'd be shocked if the choice of LeBron wasn't unanimous.

The only thing I can knock about LeBron at this point is that he isn't demanding and selfish enough yet, as funny as that sounds. He's too willing to let his teammates contribute. He needs to take charge and take control more than he does, and I think with time he will. And when he does he'll be nearly unstoppable.

crush17
05-11-2010, 08:20 AM
Howard is an absolute FREAK of nature. Give me him over anyone on that list.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-11-2010, 08:22 AM
Well gee, with that logic, that makes Aikman better than Elway. Please.

Um, no.

But at least that would be a more sensible discussion insofar as both of those guys won it all at least once.

HAT
05-11-2010, 08:25 AM
Dwight
Kobe
LBJ

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-11-2010, 08:32 AM
:spit:

One game, career not make.

Yep.

Lebron can fill up a box score, but he has yet to prove he can win anything when it matters most.

A great deal of this Lebron circle jerk is media-driven. When the players are interviewed, more often than not they say Kobe is the best player in the world.

If you ask most players who they would rather have on their team when the clock is running down and the game is on the line, they will definitely say Kobe.

SonOfLe-loLang
05-11-2010, 08:41 AM
Yep.

Lebron can fill up a box score, but he has yet to prove he can win anything when it matters most.

A great deal of this Lebron circle jerk is media-driven. When the players are interviewed, more often than not they say Kobe is the best player in the world.

If you ask most players who they would rather have on their team when the clock is running down and the game is on the line, they will definitely say Kobe.

I've been an avid basketball watcher for my entire life and never saw someone play the game like LeBron. Unfortantely, it takes more than one good player to win championships and while Cleveland has put decent pieces around Bron, he certainly never had a young Shaq or even a Gasol (Carlos Boozer really screwed him over when he left for Utah...Boozer and Bron would have been sweet.) But from a pure basketball standpoint, LeBron is the best and i'd be absolutely shocked if he didnt have a few championships by the end of his career. He's already the best player in the league and he still has room for improvement (a more consistent jumper and a post game)...and you better believe those will come. And this is no disrespect to the other players on the list, i just think LeBron is that good.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-11-2010, 08:48 AM
I've been an avid basketball watcher for my entire life and never saw someone play the game like LeBron. Unfortantely, it takes more than one good player to win championships and while Cleveland has put decent pieces around Bron, he certainly never had a young Shaq or even a Gasol (Carlos Boozer really screwed him over when he left for Utah...Boozer and Bron would have been sweet.) But from a pure basketball standpoint, LeBron is the best and i'd be absolutely shocked if he didnt have a few championships by the end of his career. He's already the best player in the league and he still has room for improvement (a more consistent jumper and a post game)...and you better believe those will come. And this is no disrespect to the other players on the list, i just think LeBron is that good.

He's (almost) as good as advertised, but he's yet to show the same killer's instinct Kobe (the ultimate closer) possesses.

When Kobe was surrounded by a roster full of scrubs (far worse than any of LBJ's teams) he responded with 80 point games and generally put up the same kind of numbers that have made fans swoon over Lebron.

SonOfLe-loLang
05-11-2010, 08:53 AM
He's (almost) as good as advertised, but he's yet to show the same killer's instinct Kobe (the ultimate closer) possesses.

When Kobe was surrounded by a roster full of scrubs (far worse than any of LBJ's teams) he responded with 80 point games and generally put up the same kind of numbers that have made fans swoon over Lebron.

I think Kobe in his prime is comparable, though I'd argue that Bron has a killer instinct too, the man has hit some big shots in his time. But when you factor in LeBron's defense, passing (best passing forward ever maybe), and rebounding, how can you not love what you see? And while LeBron might not have scored 80 points in a game, he did take an absolutely horrific cleveland team to the finals a few years back. I'm positive that LeBron could average 35 or more a night if he wanted to, but he's a distributor, point forward type of player.

I wish he were completely healthy for this series, i believe that elbow is bothering him. But hey, I'm a knicks fan...Bron and Bosh in NY in 2010! (A boy can dream?_

gunns
05-11-2010, 09:13 AM
Um, no.

But at least that would be a more sensible discussion insofar as both of those guys won it all at least once.

For the sake of argument, how about before Elway won his.

gunns
05-11-2010, 09:14 AM
Dwight
Kobe
LBJ

Calling him LBJ just gives me the willy's. Reminds me of a certain President.

ohiobronco2
05-11-2010, 09:30 AM
:spit:

One game, career not make.

You said he does not have a killer instinct. I just proved that he did and thus your point is invalid. You didn't stipulate that he had to show a killer instinct in X amount of games. ;D

ohiobronco2
05-11-2010, 09:41 AM
He's (almost) as good as advertised, but he's yet to show the same killer's instinct Kobe (the ultimate closer) possesses.

When Kobe was surrounded by a roster full of scrubs (far worse than any of LBJ's teams) he responded with 80 point games and generally put up the same kind of numbers that have made fans swoon over Lebron.

How many times has Kobe put up 80 point games? Didn't know it was a regular occurence. BTW, Lamar Odom was on that team and he's an All Star caliber player. Kobe shot the ball 46 times from the field and shot 20 free throws, it was an impressive performance, but I'd expect similar numbers from Lebron if he decided to be selfish. BTW, Kobe has never put up the same numbers as LeBron, he can score with LBJ, but he can't pass like LeBron or rebound like him.

ohiobronco2
05-11-2010, 09:44 AM
Tell me who is the better player.

Player A: 45% FG, 34% 3PT, 84% FT, 5.3 RBS, 1.5 Steals, .55 Blocks, 4.7 assists and 25.3 points

vs

Player B: 47.5% FG, 33% 3PT, 74%FT, 7 RBS, 1.74 Steals, .88 Blocks, 7.0 assists and 27.8 Points

I'll take player B.

24champ
05-11-2010, 09:47 AM
You said he does not have a killer instinct. I just proved that he did and thus your point is invalid. You didn't stipulate that he had to show a killer instinct in X amount of games. ;D

The ONLY thing you proved, was that you can embed crappy quality youtube videos.

ohiobronco2
05-11-2010, 09:48 AM
Kobe is a great player. The obvious choice of LeBron is no knock on him at all. But LeBron is clearly a better player at this stage of his career than Kobe was at the same stage. Kobe is a great talent, LeBron is a transcendent talent. If you asked every NBA front office exec what current player they'd choose to start a franchise with at the start of their career I'd be shocked if the choice of LeBron wasn't unanimous.

The only thing I can knock about LeBron at this point is that he isn't demanding and selfish enough yet, as funny as that sounds. He's too willing to let his teammates contribute. He needs to take charge and take control more than he does, and I think with time he will. And when he does he'll be nearly unstoppable.

Great Post. I agree 100%

ohiobronco2
05-11-2010, 09:51 AM
The ONLY thing you proved, was that you can embed crappy quality youtube videos.

:rofl: You'll forever be in denial. I find it comical that the majority of the people voting for Kobe are either known Laker fans or located on the western half of the country. Good luck one man wolf pack. BTW, I've found something for you.

http://www.amazon.com/Mountain-Three-Wolf-Short-Sleeve/dp/B002HJ377A

OABB
05-11-2010, 10:08 AM
I would take Kobe, but only beside he is a much much better player than Lebron.

broncocalijohn
05-11-2010, 11:19 AM
I like Kobe but what LeBron has done for the Caviliers is what Jordon did for the Chicago at the beginning of his career. Sure they would get bounced at the beginning of the tournies by Boston but they sucked before he got to the Bulls. Maybe having Shaq to start his career gives Lebron a heads up. BTW, i thought Lebron would struggle to start his career and that he should go to College first. I was waaaaaaay off on that one. GO LAKERS!

Mr.Meanie
05-11-2010, 11:27 AM
Lebron gets the nod over Kobe for me, but it is VERY close. There's no counter-argument to Kobe having 4 titles and possibly a 5th on the way. But I think Lebron's supporting cast is no better than Kobe's immediately after Shaq left and Lebron's teams are contenders.

Here's the rest of this list...

3. Durrant
4. Howard
5. Carmelo
6. Wade (injuries, or else he'd be #4)

You're insane. Smush Parker, Kwame Brown and Brian Cook - vs. Mo Williams, Verajao, Jamieson, Ilgauskas? Not even close.

HAT
05-11-2010, 01:06 PM
Tell me who is the better player.

Player A: 45% FG, 34% 3PT, 84% FT, 5.3 RBS, 1.5 Steals, .55 Blocks, 4.7 assists and 25.3 points

vs

Player B: 47.5% FG, 33% 3PT, 74%FT, 7 RBS, 1.74 Steals, .88 Blocks, 7.0 assists and 27.8 Points

I'll take player B.

And if player A was a Cav....He'd be your choice also. :homer:

brother love
05-11-2010, 03:52 PM
I'd take Magic Johnson over anybody, greatest floor leader ever and he could play all positions if need be!

worm
05-11-2010, 04:20 PM
I'd take Magic Johnson over anybody, greatest floor leader ever and he could play all positions if need be!

Soon to be the second best Laker of all-time.

FADERPROOF
05-11-2010, 04:20 PM
I took Howard. You can't teach his size.

Or a jumpshot...

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-11-2010, 04:45 PM
You're insane. Smush Parker, Kwame Brown and Brian Cook - vs. Mo Williams, Verajao, Jamieson, Ilgauskas? Not even close.

:yep:

That's the point I was trying to make earlier.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-11-2010, 04:49 PM
I find it comical that the majority of the people voting for Kobe are either known Laker fans or located on the western half of the country.

Whereas the majority of people voting for LeBrag are known Laker haters who are fans of West teams who have been repeatedly owned by Kobe over the years. :wave:

extralife
05-11-2010, 07:17 PM
Lakers fans are really scary when it comes to Kobe.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-11-2010, 08:06 PM
Ha ha ha! :laugh:

Wonder if the people who picked Lebron are having any second thoughts after tonight?

Even Charles Barkley (who was adamant that the Cavs would sweep Boston or, at best, that Boston would only win one game) sounds like he's jumping off the Lebron bandwagon. Ha!

PaintballCLE
05-11-2010, 08:07 PM
Ha ha ha! :laugh:

Wonder if the people who picked Lebron are having any second thoughts after tonight?

Even Charles Barkley (who was adamant that the Cavs would sweep Boston or, at best, that Boston would only win one game) sounds like he's jumping off the Lebron bandwagon. Ha!

we will see....series isn't over......... if Cleveland wins in Boston, i think they will win game 7 at home.

extralife
05-11-2010, 08:09 PM
Wonder if the people who picked Lebron are having any second thoughts after tonight?

Not really. I think the Cavs are an awful team outside of LeBron, and I think even Michael Jordan needed some help to win titles. And I think something got in the water in Boston, because the Celtics are playing like they did in 08, rather than 98 like they had been for two months.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-11-2010, 08:27 PM
LBJ's text message to Kobe:


Hey Black Mamba,

How do u take over games when your team needs u to?? right now i'm feeling like MVP stands for Most Valuable Pretender. please help me oh great kobe one kanobe.

-Lebronze

azbroncfan
05-11-2010, 08:38 PM
Well gee, with that logic, that makes Aikman better than Elway. Please.

What about Robert Horry?

RhymesayersDU
05-11-2010, 08:40 PM
Oh and something not mentioned:

Deron Williams & Chris Paul should have been on the OG list.

ohiobronco2
05-11-2010, 08:51 PM
What about Robert Horry?

What about Ron Harper? :)

ohiobronco2
05-11-2010, 08:52 PM
Lakers fans are really scary when it comes to Kobe.

I would use a word other then scary.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-11-2010, 08:56 PM
Laker haters are really scary when it comes to Kobe.

Fixed.

maher_tyler
05-11-2010, 09:09 PM
James, offense, defense, leader, a freak physically.

Kobe, all the above minus freak physically but plus clutch...if i had to choose which player i want taking the last shot in game 7 of the finals down 1..its Kobe no question in my mind!

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-11-2010, 09:17 PM
Kobe, all the above minus freak physically but plus clutch...if i had to choose which player i want taking the last shot in game 7 of the finals down 1..its Kobe no question in my mind!

:yep:

/thread

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-12-2010, 12:49 AM
And I think something got in the water in Boston, because the Celtics are playing like they did in 08, rather than 98 like they had been for two months.

Nothing is in the water - the Cavs are just playing a team that knows how to raise their level of play when it matters most.

(God - did I just give "those guys" a compliment? I feel like I need to go take a shower now.)

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/6451/1273649724856.jpg

bronco militia
05-12-2010, 06:58 AM
I can't stand Kobe, but I'd still pick him over everyone else on that list.

nice game from da King last night

NOT

24champ
05-12-2010, 07:07 AM
Soon to be the second best Laker of all-time.

Statistically yes, but I'd still take Magic over Kobe. Probably would have won another 2 championships with Magic, had he not retired early.

ohiobronco2
05-12-2010, 07:23 AM
Statistically yes, but I'd still take Magic over Kobe. Probably would have won another 2 championships with Magic, had he not retired early.

Probably. LeBron reminds me of Magic.

TonyR
05-12-2010, 07:58 AM
Wonder if the people who picked Lebron are having any second thoughts after tonight?!

Nope, and to do so would be myopic and would lack perspective. LeBron came up small last night for sure, but it's silly to compare LeBron early in his career with Kobe late in his. Did Kobe carry teams through the playoffs early in his career? I'm going to go with no and give a little bit of credit to Shaquille O'Neal.

broncocalijohn
05-12-2010, 01:13 PM
Ha ha ha! :laugh:

Wonder if the people who picked Lebron are having any second thoughts after tonight?

Even Charles Barkley (who was adamant that the Cavs would sweep Boston or, at best, that Boston would only win one game) sounds like he's jumping off the Lebron bandwagon. Ha!

I posted this on the other BB thread but it fits this thread perfectly. Tell me what you think of the piece on Lebron after last night's major choke job.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-lebroncavs051210


If he runs to NY, it is all about the endorsements and more noriety and nothing to do with winning. If Lebron is all that, he can go to middle of nowhere and make it if he chooses. He already turned Cavs around but will bail out after only 2 real chances of the championship. Lakers get surrounding cast members who want to win a ring with Kobe as the ringleader. Two big character differences.

Zoobie
05-12-2010, 01:54 PM
Lets assume all players are just entering the league, 18-22 years old and you are building a team from scratch.

Which ONE player would you take first to build your team around?

this has nothing to do with teams, accomplishments, etc just the actual individual player.

Brandon Roy, Steph Curry, or Danny Granger.

Houshyamama
05-12-2010, 02:04 PM
For all of you retards taking Lebron... answer me this,

what has he won?

Lebron James is NOT a winner. Period.

extralife
05-12-2010, 02:26 PM
I posted this on the other BB thread but it fits this thread perfectly. Tell me what you think of the piece on Lebron after last night's major choke job.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-lebroncavs051210


If he runs to NY, it is all about the endorsements and more noriety and nothing to do with winning. If Lebron is all that, he can go to middle of nowhere and make it if he chooses. He already turned Cavs around but will bail out after only 2 real chances of the championship. Lakers get surrounding cast members who want to win a ring with Kobe as the ringleader. Two big character differences.

Kobe kicked Shaq to the curb because he wanted to be the alpha dog, then asked for a trade after it didn't work out. Luckily for him Memphis decided to bail him out.

TonyR
05-12-2010, 02:39 PM
For all of you retards taking Lebron... answer me this,

what has he won?

Lebron James is NOT a winner. Period.

Okay, but for the sake of comparison, would Kobe have won his first 3 titles with the Lakers early in his career without Shaq? Shaq was the leading scorer on all 3 of those title teams. Who has LeBron played with to even begin to compare? Do you think maybe LeBron would have won a title with one of the most dominant players of the modern era on his team? Just maybe? LeBron is still young and hasn't nearly reached his full potential yet, and he's never had a lot of help. Give him some time. He may be a tad over hyped but it's far too early to be writing him off.

Look, LeBron's performace last night was awful and inexcusable. He has to do better. But I still think that based on his physical gifts and ability he has the potential to be one of the greatest ever. Nobody can do what he can do if/when he puts it all together. But certainly the effort and desire have to be better than they were last night.

24champ
05-12-2010, 03:01 PM
Kobe kicked Shaq to the curb because he wanted to be the alpha dog, then asked for a trade after it didn't work out. Luckily for him Memphis decided to bail him out.

No...Jerry Buss kicked Shaq to the curb. You don't have a friggin' clue how that one went down. Everyone assumes it was Kobe, even I did at one point but later learn that it was the Buss family that forced out Shaq because they didn't want to pay him the kind of money Shaq was asking for. In fact Shaq yelled at Jerry Buss "Pay me my money!" at training camp in Hawaii.

Houshyamama
05-12-2010, 03:08 PM
Okay, but for the sake of comparison, would Kobe have won his first 3 titles with the Lakers early in his career without Shaq? Shaq was the leading scorer on all 3 of those title teams. Who has LeBron played with to even begin to compare? Do you think maybe LeBron would have won a title with one of the most dominant players of the modern era on his team? Just maybe? LeBron is still young and hasn't nearly reached his full potential yet, and he's never had a lot of help. Give him some time. He may be a tad over hyped but it's far too early to be writing him off.

Look, LeBron's performace last night was awful and inexcusable. He has to do better. But I still think that based on his physical gifts and ability he has the potential to be one of the greatest ever. Nobody can do what he can do if/when he puts it all together. But certainly the effort and desire have to be better than they were last night.

Oh I hear you, there's no doubting his physical dominance and his talent. I just don't see him as a winner. He's a Dan Marino to me.

Regular season wins are meaningless if you can't come through in the playoffs. He's not as young as you might think, a player's time in the NBA is usually measured in seasons, not age. He's already got some miles on those tires, this is as productive as he's going to get.

Mr.Meanie
05-12-2010, 03:14 PM
Okay, but for the sake of comparison, would Kobe have won his first 3 titles with the Lakers early in his career without Shaq? Shaq was the leading scorer on all 3 of those title teams. Who has LeBron played with to even begin to compare? Do you think maybe LeBron would have won a title with one of the most dominant players of the modern era on his team? Just maybe? LeBron is still young and hasn't nearly reached his full potential yet, and he's never had a lot of help. Give him some time. He may be a tad over hyped but it's far too early to be writing him off.

Look, LeBron's performace last night was awful and inexcusable. He has to do better. But I still think that based on his physical gifts and ability he has the potential to be one of the greatest ever. Nobody can do what he can do if/when he puts it all together. But certainly the effort and desire have to be better than they were last night.

I think all this "debate" has proved is that superstars like Kobe and Lebron, 2 of the best to ever play the game, still need a great supporting cast to have a shot at a championship.

Kobe couldn't do it with Smush Parker and Kwame Brown starting, and Lebron can't do it now.

I have to say, the best thing about Lebron's complete failure to come close to sniffing a ring is it shuts up all the Kobe Haters for a little while at least.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-12-2010, 04:36 PM
How many times did Kobe do something like this during this season alone?

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And playing with a broken index finger on his shooting hand since December.

By contrast, Lebron gave zero effort in what might have been the most critical game of the season for his team last night. This was apparent most obviously on the defensive end. Usually you can tell the difference between an off-night and a no-show by how intense a player is bringing it defensively, and instead of stepping up to the challenge of guarding both Rondo and Pierce, he backed down from it. That is something that you will never, ever see Kobe do. If your argument is that MB barely put LeBron on Rondo, then my counter argument would be that Pierce had his best night of the series. There is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for your supposed leader to give such an uninspired effort.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-12-2010, 05:15 PM
Even Google knows... Ha!

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4027/4602206746_9ca30c62d7.jpg

maher_tyler
05-12-2010, 07:27 PM
Even Google knows... Ha!

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4027/4602206746_9ca30c62d7.jpg

Hilarious!

PaintballCLE
05-12-2010, 07:57 PM
So here is my opinion......tell me what you think.

I still think Lebron is the best player in the league when HE WANTS to be.......i do hate him and his whiny attitude (and i am a cavs fan) I wont be terribly upset to see him go.

A lot of you guys talk about Kobe and him having the killer instinct. I do agree he has it, and I think Lebron HAD it, but going to the finals with the team shown below actually hurt him. Many people think it was great experience and he can build off of it......I actually think its the opposite......it made him feel like they could get there every year by half assing it. They had the best record this year and to use Tiger's words he felt "entitled" to making the finals again. Same thing last year as well.

The last two years they could coast through the regular season, but when it becomes playoff time and the intensity goes up from the other teams......... the Cavs stay the same. I don't think anyone can argue against this years (or last years) Cavs team is far better than they were in 06-07. But I think between then and now Lebron lost something. I am not basing this on one game or series........but at times he just seems like he is going through the motions instead of giving it his all every play.

I still think the cavs will win tomorrow, and then win game 7 at home but obviously the odds are against them.

I think lebron will come out with that killer instinct and carry them to a win in boston and then the cavs will win in a tought nail biter in Cleveland.

The part that hurt the cavs the most was the contracts from the previous GM. Way too much money long term to players that don't deserve it because they were desperate to try to get better players around Lebron. That really tied Ferry's hands because they had no money to spend. Some of the trades he made have been fantastic though........dumping hughes, gooden, eric snow, and all these other guys who were making way too much moeny for way too long of contracts. I think he did the best he could with what he had. Unfortuantely now that moeny is starting to open up, Lebron might be gone. Everyone is saying that lebron will go to NY or miami......but maybe wade or bosch go to cleveland instead since they can use Shaqs and the other expiring contracts to free up money.

I love shaq, but hes a liability in this series. Perkins is one of the few centers big and bulky enough to stop him, and Shaq's slowness hurts them.

I think the cavs should start varejao at center, and use hickson to guard garnett because jamison can't. If only lebron wasn't in love with jamison, and ferry pulled the deal on stoudemire instead the cavs would be unstoppable. I dont know if this is nationaly known....... but Lebron went into ferry's office when they were working on trades before the deadline and pretty much demanded jamison over stoudemire. I think that was a mistake.

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u144/pntballkrm/cavs2007.jpg

HEAV
05-12-2010, 08:10 PM
Jordan...best ever...shaq would be two

http://image3.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID4514/slideshows/090324092156michael-jordan-acrylic.jpg

HEAV
05-12-2010, 08:19 PM
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DB-Freak
05-12-2010, 08:24 PM
Lebron has been the best player in the NBA the past three years.

And it hasn't even been close.

broncocalijohn
05-12-2010, 08:26 PM
I am wondering where in the hell has Lex been? This is his type of thread to really shove his foot up his ass.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-12-2010, 08:28 PM
Lebron has been the best player in the NBA the past three years.

And it hasn't even been close.

Way to back up your assertion with some kind of explanation. Ha!

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-12-2010, 08:29 PM
I am wondering where in the hell has Lex been? This is his type of thread to really shove his foot up his ass.

Ha!

Yep - there's more to being the "best" than just being a stat stuffer.

HEAV
05-12-2010, 08:29 PM
Lebron has been the best player in the NBA the past three years.

And it hasn't even been close.

Regular season and Playoff season are two different seasons.

Lebron showed his contempt for his team the other night by flat out giving up on them.

gunns
05-12-2010, 08:34 PM
Jordan...best ever...shaq would be two

How unfortunate the youth are limited to their time and the hype. While the greatest of his time, IMO not of all time. But then you run into the argument of times. But pure talent, I'd still say no.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-12-2010, 08:38 PM
http://www.dweebist.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/fail-lebron-480x319.jpg

DB-Freak
05-12-2010, 09:11 PM
Way to back up your assertion with some kind of explanation. Ha!

I'm tired of it. Especially with people who have selective vision and absolutely spin everything like you.

Statistically, it's not even close.

But again, people just bring the how many rings does he have argument like a bunch of simpletons.

Robert Horry > against all.

azbroncfan
05-12-2010, 09:16 PM
I'm tired of it. Especially with people who have selective vision and absolutely spin everything like you.

Statistically, it's not even close.

But again, people just bring the how many rings does he have argument like a bunch of simpletons.

Robert Horry > against all.

I have to say Kobe has never won anything without one of the best 7 footers in the league on his team. 3 of his rings he wasn't even the best player on the team.

ohiobronco2
05-12-2010, 09:21 PM
Ha!

Yep - there's more to being the "best" than just being a stat stuffer.

:rofl:I know right. How do these people come to these conclusions. Kobe is the best to eva play the game right. BTW......You've officially changed my opinion of Kobe and the Lakers. I'm a big fan....So, do you think our boys will win another title this year. Lakers for life.

ohiobronco2
05-12-2010, 09:27 PM
OMG. LA BRONCOS FAN. You have to see these Kobe highlights. Unreal. LAKERZ 4 LYFE

Infidelity
Kobe 1
LBJ 0

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ohiobronco2
05-12-2010, 09:30 PM
I have to say Kobe has never won anything without one of the best 7 footers in the league on his team. 3 of his rings he wasn't even the best player on the team.

The guy has had a loaded team every time he has won a title. It's not a knock on him, even Jordan needed Pippen. LeBron is a better player, he just has not had the luxury of playing on a stacked team like Kobe.

DB-Freak
05-12-2010, 09:30 PM
I have to say Kobe has never won anything without one of the best 7 footers in the league on his team. 3 of his rings he wasn't even the best player on the team.

Odom, Gasol, and Bynum are no chumps either.

ohiobronco2
05-12-2010, 09:32 PM
Odom, Gasol, and Bynum are no chumps either.

I believe that Odom and Gasol were all star players before they landed in LA. So was Artest. Bynum obviously has talent he just has not be able to put it all together.

azbroncfan
05-12-2010, 09:34 PM
Odom, Gasol, and Bynum are no chumps either.

Yeah I was talking about Shaq and Gasol. Gasol is probably the #2 C in the league. Odom and Bynum are starters pretty much everywhere too.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-12-2010, 09:56 PM
Yeah I was talking about Shaq and Gasol. Gasol is probably the #2 C in the league. Odom and Bynum are starters pretty much everywhere too.

Gasol is a power forward who can play center when called upon.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-12-2010, 10:00 PM
I'm tired of it. Especially with people who have selective vision and absolutely spin everything like you.

Straw man.

Statistically, it's not even close.

There's more to being the best than just being a stat stuffer.

But again, people just bring the how many rings does he have argument like a bunch of simpletons.


Another straw man - the ring issue isn't the only issue people mention when comparing LeBrag to Kobe.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-12-2010, 10:02 PM
Oh I hear you, there's no doubting his physical dominance and his talent. I just don't see him as a winner. He's a Dan Marino to me.


Exactly.

James is a great regular season player and a post season choke artist.

24champ
05-12-2010, 10:10 PM
Like the Yahoo! article says, James is more interested in Business than winning Basketball Championships.

azbroncfan
05-12-2010, 10:27 PM
Gasol is a power forward who can play center when called upon.

Whatever you want to call it. We aren't picking pepper out of fly **** but he is a 7 footer.

DB-Freak
05-12-2010, 10:37 PM
Straw man.



There's more to being the best than just being a stat stuffer.



Another straw man - the ring issue isn't the only issue people mention when comparing LeBrag to Kobe.

Way to deflect issue by saying lebron is a stat stuffer. Stats do matter or else again, Horry is better than a lot of the players we've talking about.

You talk about Kobe's intangibles and all these abstract concepts that you decide upon your own discretion and subjective view.

Not only that, you chose to ignore the comparison of the supporting casts that these two players have.

Again statistically, it's not even close in terms of talent level between their support casts.

But w/e, keep on clinging on to your intangibles, if that what helps you sleep at night.

broncocalijohn
05-12-2010, 11:11 PM
I'm tired of it. Especially with people who have selective vision and absolutely spin everything like you.

Statistically, it's not even close.

But again, people just bring the how many rings does he have argument like a bunch of simpletons.

Robert Horry > against all.

Your problem with comparing the best with rings and throwing Robert Horry in there is like saying Mike Lodish is the greatest for his 5 trips to the Super Bowl (or was it 6?). You ask to compare the best of a list of 6 or 7. Then you start to compare rings/championships. Dont be throwing someone in there after the requirement is set. Great players get rings. Rings just arent handed to great players. Robert Horry was a part of a puzzle. Players also get rings based on being at the right place at the right time. Stick with the arguement of Kobe vs LeBron. I dont care which way you go but have a valid arguement and not bring in someone with a ton of rings but not on the list. Dont cope out.

OABB
05-12-2010, 11:13 PM
People seriously would pick anyone other thn Kobe? Are we trying to win or get endorsement deals with our picks? Absolutely inane.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-12-2010, 11:36 PM
Not only that, you chose to ignore the comparison of the supporting casts that these two players have.

Ha ha ha! :laugh:

I knew you were going to play the "supporting cast" card eventually.

All year long we've been hearing about Lebron's supporting cast being the best in the league this year. They added Shaq, they added Jamison, etc., etc. Now all of a sudden the media and Lebron jock riders like you are saying Lebron has nobody supporting him?




But w/e, keep on clinging on to your intangibles, if that what helps you sleep at night.

"Intangibles?"

Nothing "intangible" about Kobe's 4 rings - they are very real.

Nothing "intangible" about the fact that most NBA players name Kobe as the best player in the world and/or indicate they would rather have Kobe on their squad than LeBrag when the game is on the line and when it matters most.

DB-Freak
05-12-2010, 11:37 PM
Your problem with comparing the best with rings and throwing Robert Horry in there is like saying Mike Lodish is the greatest for his 5 trips to the Super Bowl (or was it 6?). You ask to compare the best of a list of 6 or 7. Then you start to compare rings/championships. Dont be throwing someone in there after the requirement is set. Great players get rings. Rings just arent handed to great players. Robert Horry was a part of a puzzle. Players also get rings based on being at the right place at the right time. Stick with the arguement of Kobe vs LeBron. I dont care which way you go but have a valid arguement and not bring in someone with a ton of rings but not on the list. Dont cope out.

Great players don't win rings without other great players.

I say it took Elway awhile to win one.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-12-2010, 11:47 PM
People seriously would pick anyone other thn Kobe?

Because the media and its corporate sponsors are too eager to crown Lebron "king" before he's actually won anything or proven he's more than just a stat stuffer and a great regular season player.

Lebron is the best REGULAR SEASON player in the league, but of the elites (Kobe, Wade, Lebron, et al) he is the absolute easiest to game plan for. In a playoff series (where chess is played) everyone knows to play Lebron hard right, clog the lane, and don't stray too far from the shooters while Lebron runs down the shot clock. There is no predicting what Wade or Kobe will do.

Would Kobe or MJ give up on their team like Lebron did last night? No, never. Kobe or MJ go down fighting. End of story. I've said it many times and I'll say it again. Kobe is the closest thing thing to MJ that I've ever seen. People jocking Lebronze this year saying he had surpassed Kobe as a player had me wanting to puke. Please. Let's see Lebron do something when it truly matters. Let's see some heart and some guts. Until I see gut wrenching, inspiring play out of this guy instead of sheer athleticism I will never concede such an outrageous thing. If Lebron does actually pull himself together I'll think better of him - but if he goes down in flames again this year then there are no valid excuses for the guy as a so called "great." It takes more than God-given athleticism and size at your position to make a great player.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-12-2010, 11:52 PM
Great players don't win rings without other great players.

I say it took Elway awhile to win one.

Ha!

Like I just said, all year long we've been hearing about Lebron's supporting cast being the best in the league this year. They added Shaq, they added Jamison, etc., etc. Now all of a sudden the media and Lebron jock riders like you are saying Lebron has nobody supporting him?

Are you saying Lebron and his supporting cast were good enough to finish with the league's best record but not good enough to win it all? How would you explain that?

DB-Freak
05-13-2010, 12:14 AM
Ha ha ha! :laugh:

I knew you were going to play the "supporting cast" card eventually.

All year long we've been hearing about Lebron's supporting cast being the best in the league this year. They added Shaq, they added Jamison, etc., etc. Now all of a sudden the media and Lebron jock riders like you are saying Lebron has nobody supporting him?




"Intangibles?"

Nothing "intangible" about Kobe's 4 rings - they are very real.

Nothing "intangible" about the fact that most NBA players name Kobe as the best player in the world and/or indicate they would rather have Kobe on their squad than LeBrag when the game is on the line and when it matters most.

No matter what the media says, the cleveland supporting cast is hardly top notch at least compared to the Lakers. Not even close.

The fact that Odom and Gasol are in there, doesn't even make it a contest.

Your rebuttal to my intangible comment is just your hear-says from players and not about actual production. I'm pretty sure I hear a lot of people involved in the NBA actual call Lebron the best player and that's how he actually won the MVP. Those kind of claims are easy to make and it doesn't strengthen the argument.

Data sample
Regular Seasons: '03-04, '04-05, '05-06, '06-07, '07-08, '08-09 (thru 2/4)
Playoffs: '03-04, '04-05, '05-06, '06-07, '07-08

Within those years, Lebron made more game winning shots than Kobe in the regular season and tied Kobe in the game winning shots in the playoffs within these data samples. Around similar field goal percentages too. Actually Lebron is better than in the regular season and tied in playoff FG percentage with Kobe in terms of game winning shots.

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

Another interest stat

For these stats "Clutch" is defined as:
4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points

In 2007-2008 Lebron James did better than kobe by almost 5 points in this category.
http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM

in 2008-2009, Kobe did better than Lebron, but only by .8 points.
http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM

Lebron again beats Kobe in this by about good 15 points.
http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM

Kobe is hardly more clutch than Lebron career-wise. Although I do give credit to Bryant this year in terms of game winning shots in the regular season, but he's played mediocre in the playoffs so far and rode through Gasol and Bynum for alot of the games while Lebron doesn't have that luxury.

DB-Freak
05-13-2010, 12:21 AM
Ha!

Like I just said, all year long we've been hearing about Lebron's supporting cast being the best in the league this year. They added Shaq, they added Jamison, etc., etc. Now all of a sudden the media and Lebron jock riders like you are saying Lebron has nobody supporting him?

Are you saying Lebron and his supporting cast were good enough to finish with the league's best record but not good enough to win it all? How would you explain that?

Again show me where I said Lebron's supporting cast being the best in the league this year. I'm glad you took it to heart what the media was saying, but that's not what I thought sadly for you.

Funny you call me a Lebron jock-rider, and you don't even know who I support. I guess just arguing for a certain player deserving of a certain title makes you a nuthugger of that player.

I guess calling dwight howard the best defensive player would make me dwight howard nuthugger, too. Right?

Plus Cavs do play in the Eastern Conference, it's not that surprising that they win more games in the regular season.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 12:40 AM
Again show me where I said Lebron's supporting cast being the best in the league this year.

Never attributed the statement to you personally, but it doesn't matter who said it.

What matters is that you're using Lebron's supporting cast as an excuse for Lebron's lack of post season success - even though that same supporting cast finished with the best record in the league (even resting James for several games at the end of the season.)

Funny you call me a Lebron jock-rider, and you don't even know who I support.

It's certainly a reasonable assumption given your sustained efforts to pimp Lebron here.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 12:50 AM
No matter what the media says, the cleveland supporting cast is hardly top notch at least compared to the Lakers. Not even close.

Then how do you explain the fact that Cleveland finished with the best record?


Your rebuttal to my intangible comment is just your hear-says from players and not about actual production.

Not hearsay - actual interviews with players.

Data sample
Regular Seasons: '03-04, '04-05, '05-06, '06-07, '07-08, '08-09 (thru 2/4)
Playoffs: '03-04, '04-05, '05-06, '06-07, '07-08

Within those years, Lebron made more game winning shots than Kobe in the regular season and tied Kobe in the game winning shots in the playoffs within these data samples. Around similar field goal percentages too. Actually Lebron is better than in the regular season and tied in playoff FG percentage with Kobe in terms of game winning shots.

http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

Another interest stat

For these stats "Clutch" is defined as:
4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points

In 2007-2008 Lebron James did better than kobe by almost 5 points in this category.
http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM

in 2008-2009, Kobe did better than Lebron, but only by .8 points.
http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM

Lebron again beats Kobe in this by about good 15 points.
http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM

This only confirms that Lebron is a stat stuffer who plays great in the regular season but is a playoff choke artist.

Kobe is hardly more clutch than Lebron career-wise.

ROFL!

Are you kidding me?

You throw out some stats from the last two years and pretend those stats account for Kobe's entire career?


Although I do give credit to Bryant this year in terms of game winning shots in the regular season, but he's played mediocre in the playoffs so far and rode through Gasol and Bynum for alot of the games while Lebron doesn't have that luxury.

ROFL!

"Mediocre?" You must not have watched the last series vs. Utah.

And what do you mean "Lebron doesn't have that luxury?" He has Shaq, Jamison, and the Big Z to go to in the post any given night.

DB-Freak
05-13-2010, 01:05 AM
Then how do you explain the fact that Cleveland finished with the best record?



Not hearsay - actual interviews with players.



This only confirms that Lebron is a stat stuffer who plays great in the regular season but is a playoff choke artist.



ROFL!

Are you kidding me?

You throw out some stats from the last two years and pretend those stats account for Kobe's entire career?



ROFL!

"Mediocre?" You must not have watched the last series vs. Utah.

And what do you mean "Lebron doesn't have that luxury?" He has Shaq, Jamison, and the Big Z to go to in the post any given night.

Some say Kobe, Some say Lebron. But I didn't know interviews and statements from players determine who the best player is.

Hey glad you didn't mention the thunder series. He actually played horrific, but accounting for the jazz series, I said mediocore.

Unfortunately, I'm not able to compare the full lengths career stats since the information isn't all there, but so far the evidence that we hav says something different about Kobe and Lebron. Plus we are arguing for the best player currently, so the latest 4-5 years is plenty enough information. I'm not sure if we need to go back 10 years or anything to prove anything.

And how does that stat support that Lebron is a choke artist? He made the same amount game winning shots on same number of attempts with Kobe in the playoffs.

And yet, he's a choke artist?

And again, Cleveland plays in the eastern conference. If you can't decipher what I am saying from that, you clearly don't know enough about the NBA.

DB-Freak
05-13-2010, 01:07 AM
And are you joking?

Shaq, Z, and Jamison? As compared to Odom, Gasol and Bynum?

Not only that, do you even know what type of player Jamison is?

Now you are just reaching.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 01:58 AM
Great article from NBC sports:

LeBron vs. Kobe: There’s no comparison

Until James wins an NBA championship, Kobe reigns as league’s best

Toying with the city of Cleveland's fragile psyche, calling the NBA's reigning MVP "LeGone" James would just be piling on, rubbing in salt. Besides, that would be predicated on LeBron first being somewhere.

For all the numbers, for all the surreal passes and forays above the rim, the most breathtaking young player in the game is still at base camp in the legacy game. LeBron is gazing longingly toward the top of the mountain, where Kobe Bryant is about to plant a flag.

After consecutive MVP awards, let's look at the resume that matters: Rings? Zilch. NBA Finals wins? In his lone appearance three years ago, four and out to the San Antonio Spurs.

And to put a bow on what might soon become a seven-year career of unfulfilled championship promise, LeBron's Cavaliers, the best team in pro basketball this season, are one game from bowing out in the second round against essentially three old guys with knee braces who Rajon Rondo found at the Dorchester Y.

At 25, LeBron is in danger of becoming the NBA's Alex Ovechkin — heavenly regular season, hellish playoff finale.

We're all witnesses, all right — witnesses to Phil Knight's Great American Hyperbole Machine, where we sop up commercials as reality.

Witness to 3 for 14 in front of your home crowd.

Witness to passivity, flat-out in-game apathy, unbecoming a player of LeBron's Hall of Fame caliber.

"He didn't even play," said Tim Legler, an ESPN analyst and former NBA guard. "He wasn't engaged. I've never seen a star-caliber athlete that uninvolved in a big game. It's like a Tom Brady or Peyton Manning audibling out of a third-and-eight passing down and just handing the ball off. Or Reggie Jackson taking three called strikes and not swinging.

"At one point after he spotted up in the corner, I saw him holding onto his shorts and bending over. I could not believe what I was watching was a guy not into the game."

A look at the highs and lows of Cavaliers guard LeBron James' career.
Legler could only come to one conclusion: Stress. LeBron felt the pressure of having to carry a franchise by himself, which Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce and Ray Allen don't have to. If one of them has a bad game, the Celtics can still win. If LeBron lays an egg like Game 5, it's over.

Because Commissioner David Stern and his broadcast partners are very good at what they do, there is a tendency to make this NBA postseason simply about LeBron vs. Kobe, much the way it was once about Michael vs. Magic in 1990 — the young buck finally on the cusp of unseating the old champion.

But such a hoped-for showdown not only disrespects the Celtics, Magic and Suns, it completely short-changes Kobe.

He will be 32 in August. Since Tim Duncan (34) and Shaquille O'Neal (38) are not getting any younger, chances are Kobe is going to break the tie among the three most accomplished players of the post-Jordan generation (LeBron, Dwyane Wade and Carmelo Anthony have been to only two NBA Finals between them) for championship rings.

It's "the Race for Five" or "One for the Thumb."

Because rings are used as measuring sticks for legacies (see Bill Russell's 11, Jordan's six and Magic Johnson and Larry Bird's eight combined), this is huge. Shaq told me so a year ago. "One more ring equals Magic and that would mean the world to me," O'Neal said. Since LeBron is the main reason the Daddy would get his fifth, and maybe Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili will have as much or more to do with the Spurs winning a fifth than Duncan if that ever happens, really this comes down to Kobe's legacy. He is still the top banana on his team.

Kobe won his first title at 21 years old, although Shaq was the best player on that Lakers team.

Yes, he learned to win at the game's highest level like LeBron is learning to win at the game's highest level, like Jordan once learned. But after that defining Game 5 in Detroit in 2007 that seemed to mark the beginning of the "LeBron as NBA Poster Child" era, he has yet to get back to the Finals. Unimportant individual numbers and awards aside, is the Kobe comparison fair anymore?

"You know who woke up the happiest guy in life when the sun came up today?" Legler asked. "Kobe. Because there was a general consensus that LeBron had surpassed Kobe as the best player in the game a year ago. Kobe Bryant wakes up today, watches LeBron get killed for a week after they go down to Boston — and I think they will — and Kobe is thinking, 'I told y'all, it's not that easy, is it?'"

See, the problem with being referred to as "King James" since high school is that at some point people actually expect you to climb atop the throne. Seize the scepter from Kobe, who eventually took it from Michael Jordan.

And nothing about LeBron's play in Game 5 bespoke of royalty on Tuesday night, not even close. If you don't win that game, you at least have to show up and not let a long-in-the-tooth team such as the Celtics blow your doors off at home.

If Thursday is indeed the last game for LeBron in a Cavaliers uniform, if free agency takes him to Manhattan or Brooklyn or beyond, the emotionally wounded sports fan in Cleveland who hasn't won a major championship since the Browns in 1964 — must be feeling like a lot of America's hoopers and 'ballers long awaiting Kobe vs. LeBron:

Let down. Betrayed. Sold a bill of goods by Nike and everyone else pushing LeBron to be the chosen one, it now appears, too soon.

"I don't want to throw a blanket on it, because it was just one game and I love LeBron for many reasons as a player," Legler said. "But this was such a defining game in his career. And his mind just seems very muddled, distracted, almost unengaged."

Unless LeBron has something left in his tank we didn't see in Game 5, it's time to face facts: He's not yet ready to be king.

And whether he leaves Cleveland or not, he should not have fussed so much earlier this season about whether to ditch the No. 23 because he believes Michael's old number is too hallowed.

Right now he should worry about not switching to the Nos. 8 or 24, because that would be very disrespectful to Kobe, almost as disrespectful as someone comparing the two players' legacies at this point in LeBron James's title-less career.


http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/37122223/

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 02:04 AM
Hey glad you didn't mention the thunder series. He actually played horrific, but accounting for the jazz series, I said mediocore.

In the OKC series, Kobe was still trying to fight through injuries. Anyone who actually watched the series knows he wasn't completely himself.

As for the Utah series, if you call ~30 PPG "mediocre" then you must watch some other NBA than the rest of us. :D

Unfortunately, I'm not able to compare the full lengths career stats since the information isn't all there....

The "information" isn't there?

More like you weren't there, i.e., probably just started watching the NBA (and Kobe and/or the Lakers) relatively recently.

And how does that stat support that Lebron is a choke artist?

It shows that he can fill up the box score but can't win when it matters most.

extralife
05-13-2010, 02:33 AM
I like how we can't get over the fact that a 25 year old player hasn't won a title yet. He's 25. Jordan didn't win a title until he was 28, in his 7th year, with a legitimate all-star sidekick. He won six titles before it was all said and done. Even after that stinker, LeBron is averaging 29 points, 8 rebound, and 7.5 assists a game in the playoffs. Last year his playoff numbers were 35, 9, and 7. Those are Jordan playoff numbers. When Kobe tried to put up those kinds of numbers on a team in which he was the only legitimate player, he didn't even make the playoffs. You give LeBron Kobe's cast and he'd win 70 games. You give him Shaq in his prime and the rest of the league would still have sore asses. I'm not a Cavs fan, and I don't even particularly like LeBron, but this conversation can barely even qualify as such. It is only Lakers fans that hold up Kobe. Lakers fans are obsessed with the way LeBron performs, even though they've never played against him in a significant game. Do you think Cavs fans care about Kobe? No.

Don't be ridiculous.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 04:03 AM
When Kobe tried to put up those kinds of numbers on a team in which he was the only legitimate player, he didn't even make the playoffs.

You're sure about that? Ha!

And I hope you're not trying to compare those teams Kobe played on with Lebron's current team?


You give LeBron Kobe's cast and he'd win 70 games. You give him Shaq in his prime and the rest of the league would still have sore asses. I'm not a Cavs fan, and I don't even particularly like LeBron, but this conversation can barely even qualify as such.

That's right - because the above paragraph is pure speculation.


Lakers fans are obsessed with the way LeBron performs, even though they've never played against him in a significant game.

Strike three.

Lakers fans aren't obsessed with Lebron - they just resent the fact that the media is pimping Lebron as > Kobe before Lebron has actually accomplished anything that matters in this league.

DB-Freak
05-13-2010, 05:20 AM
In the OKC series, Kobe was still trying to fight through injuries. Anyone who actually watched the series knows he wasn't completely himself.

As for the Utah series, if you call ~30 PPG "mediocre" then you must watch some other NBA than the rest of us. :D



The "information" isn't there?

More like you weren't there, i.e., probably just started watching the NBA (and Kobe and/or the Lakers) relatively recently.



It shows that he can fill up the box score but can't win when it matters most.

Selective reading or I'm guessing you have trouble understanding the part "accounting for", but it's ok since it's a routine thing from you, I guess.

And not even an attempt to back any of your stances with concrete numbers and just an e-attack on my bball credibility.

There's this reputation that Kobe's killer instinct being that much better than Lebron's and yet the numbers so far tell a different story.

And this is a story about who's the best player currently and recent years, so I actually enough numbers to actually prove in recent "years" that Lebron is just as clutch or if not more clutch. And that was one of the few crutches you kobe nut-riders were hanging on, but it's just not there.

Maximus
05-13-2010, 06:19 AM
Interesting topic. I would take Kobe 9 out of 10 times and Dwight Howard 1 out of 10. Lebron James has not earned the hype. Kobe came into the league and sat on the bench. He had to prove his greatness. Kobe is the true King of the game and has the titles to prove it. Lebron is like a lot of physically gifted players but right now he's a mental midget compared to Kobe.

You cannot be the King without a Crown!

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 06:49 AM
Selective reading or I'm guessing you have trouble understanding the part "accounting for", but it's ok since it's a routine thing from you, I guess.

What's "routine" for you is talking out the side of your neck about playoff series you probably haven't even watched, e.g., the LAL/OKC series. Had you actually watched that series, you'd realize that Kobe was playing through multiple injuries and was not really himself.

It wasn't really until he got an extra day of rest during the Jazz series that he started to look like the Kobe we all know.

BTW, I wonder how Lebron would have responded to a broken index finger on his shooting hand?

I suppose it doesn't take too much imagination to guess the answer to that one, based on what we've seen in these playoffs.


And not even an attempt to back any of your stances with concrete numbers and just an e-attack on my bball credibility.

I don't need much in the way of numbers to debunk the patently absurd arguments you've been peddling here, e.g., the argument that Lerbron doesn't have an adequate supporting cast (this in spite of the fact that the Cavs finished with the best record in the league) or the argument that the teams Kobe played on during the 3 years post-Shaq are comparable to the team Lebron has around him.

There's this reputation that Kobe's killer instinct being that much better than Lebron's and yet the numbers so far tell a different story.

Jeeez! There you go again with the meaningless numbers. At the end of the day, all that matters is winning championships.

Where was Lebron's "killer instinct" in game 5 vs. Boston when it really counted?

And this is a story about who's the best player currently and recent years, so I actually enough numbers to actually prove in recent "years" that Lebron is just as clutch or if not more clutch. And that was one of the few crutches you kobe nut-riders were hanging on, but it's just not there.

So you cherry pick stats (stats which don't necessarily translate to "clutch" play) from the last two years (exclusively) to make your case that Lebron is more clutch than Kobe?

That's just ridiculous.

How do expect anyone to take you seriously with that kind of silly sh*t?

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 07:01 AM
Interesting topic. I would take Kobe 9 out of 10 times and Dwight Howard 1 out of 10. Lebron James has not earned the hype. Kobe came into the league and sat on the bench. He had to prove his greatness. Kobe is the true King of the game and has the titles to prove it. Lebron is like a lot of physically gifted players but right now he's a mental midget compared to Kobe.

You cannot be the King without a Crown!

:thumbsup:

That really says it all, IMO.

Lebron is a tremendously gifted athlete who happens to play basketball, whereas Kobe, Magic, MJ, et al, are tremendously gifted basketball players who happen to be good athletes.

TonyR
05-13-2010, 07:16 AM
People seriously would pick anyone other thn Kobe?

Depends on what the argument is. Today I'd have to consider taking Kobe. But to start a franchise? LeBron is the choice. Better all around player, higher ceiling.

TonyR
05-13-2010, 07:19 AM
That really says it all, IMO.


Does it? You need to compare LeBron and Kobe at similar points in their careers. If you're going to argue that Kobe had already won championships at the same point and ignore the fact that Shaq was the alpha dog on those teams then you're not keeping it real and there's no point discussing this with you any more. If you're going to seriously suggest that LeBron wouldn't have rings if he had Shaq in his prime playing next to him then I don't know what to tell you. Ridiculous.

ohiobronco2
05-13-2010, 07:25 AM
:thumbsup:

That really says it all, IMO.

Lebron is a tremendously gifted athlete who happens to play basketball, whereas Kobe, Magic, MJ, et al, are tremendously gifted basketball players who happen to be good athletes.

I know right. Bro these fellas don't know what they are talking about. Kobe Bryant for life. Straight ballin yo. Lakers in 3 vs the Suns. They will beat them so bably in the 1st 3 games, they will forfeit the 4th. Lakerz 4 lyfe. Kobe have my baby.

worm
05-13-2010, 07:40 AM
Depends on what the argument is. Today I'd have to consider taking Kobe. But to start a franchise? LeBron is the choice. Better all around player, higher ceiling.

Yeah, the OP poll has been mutilated. It has gone from which player coming into the league would you build around to talks of who has what rings and who is the better player now...basically turned into a religious war as you can see by Ohio's idiotic ramblings now.

I agree, LeBron is the choice I would make as a GM that I would want to build around because he is the right type of player to have as a cornerstone. Versatile. Physically dominant.

As a fan...I enjoy Kobe's game more than James. Its more fluid and creative. As a head to head player comparison...the King is not in Cleveland right now.

TonyR
05-13-2010, 07:57 AM
Lets assume all players are just entering the league, 18-22 years old and you are building a team from scratch.

Which ONE player would you take first to build your team around?

this has nothing to do with teams, accomplishments, etc just the actual individual player.

Good post, worm. You nailed it. Above is the OP. Kobe is by far the more accomplished player. The 18-22 year old version of LeBron is the player anybody who understands basketball would take to build a franchise around between the two players.

DB-Freak
05-13-2010, 12:04 PM
What's "routine" for you is talking out the side of your neck about playoff series you probably haven't even watched, e.g., the LAL/OKC series. Had you actually watched that series, you'd realize that Kobe was playing through multiple injuries and was not really himself.

It wasn't really until he got an extra day of rest during the Jazz series that he started to look like the Kobe we all know.

BTW, I wonder how Lebron would have responded to a broken index finger on his shooting hand?

I suppose it doesn't take too much imagination to guess the answer to that one, based on what we've seen in these playoffs.



I don't need much in the way of numbers to debunk the patently absurd arguments you've been peddling here, e.g., the argument that Lerbron doesn't have an adequate supporting cast (this in spite of the fact that the Cavs finished with the best record in the league) or the argument that the teams Kobe played on during the 3 years post-Shaq are comparable to the team Lebron has around him.



Jeeez! There you go again with the meaningless numbers. At the end of the day, all that matters is winning championships.

Where was Lebron's "killer instinct" in game 5 vs. Boston when it really counted?



So you cherry pick stats (stats which don't necessarily translate to "clutch" play) from the last two years (exclusively) to make your case that Lebron is more clutch than Kobe?

That's just ridiculous.

How do expect anyone to take you seriously with that kind of silly sh*t?

Sigh, all of them are just deflections and spins. I basically refuted all those statements already in my previous posts.

And yet we're back at ground zero again. I have watched practically almost all the play-off games so far unlike someone who just watches the lakers. But w.e floats your boat, if the best you can do is accuse me of not watching games.

If you wanna just cherry pick games, saying how last game Lebron just proves your point is weak. No one is immune to terrible games no matter how great they are.

It's like the same retards who said when Kobe played terrible against the Celtics in 2008 finals would forever tarnish his legacy no matter what.

No matter what you would like to believe about what the media has been saying about Lebron's supporting cast, they are hardly great(Nowhere near the best), and certainly worse than Kobe's supporting cast. You can try to refute that, but you would just prove that you know nothing about basketball.

You call my arguments absurd, but that's all you've said. You debunked nothing. You say debunked my arguments and yet you haven't even supported or backed up your statements with concrete facts.

I'm done here. Keep on hugging those balls tight. I know that's what helps you get through the day.

By the way, I gave you three years not just two. While I can't compare their whole careers number wise in clutch sats, but neither can you. So neither of us can really prove **** so you just go by however you would like to perceive things.

But the argument in who has been the best player currently and recent times, the only crutch that Kobe fans had was Kobe being more clutch and yet that has hardly been true. This year and past two years is enough sample size for that.

Plus overall production, it hasn't even been close between Lebron and Kobe.

24champ
05-13-2010, 12:19 PM
This was mentioned on the radio earlier today, Lebron hasn't done anything spectacular in the playoffs, his teams have never knocked out anyone of significance in his 7 years in the league.


Looks look at a couple of the real greats of the NBA that have been discussed in this thread.

Magic Johnson- Had to play the Bad Boy Pistons, Larry Bird Celtics, Michael Jordan's Bulls.

Michael Jordan- Had to play the Kemp-Payton Sonics, Knicks, Pistons, Reggie Millers Pacers, Utah Jazz and so on...

Larry Bird- Played the Bad Boy Pistons, Showtime Lakers.

Shaq- Had to play Hakeem's Rockets, Duncan and Robinson Spurs, Webber's Sacramento Kings, Jailblazers etc.

Kobe- Had to play the Spurs, Kings, Celtics, Nuggets best ever team etc.


Who the **** did Lebron ever go to war against? The Magic? Hilarious!

ohiobronco2
05-13-2010, 12:23 PM
Sigh, all of them are just deflections and spins. I basically refuted all those statements already in my previous posts.

And yet we're back at ground zero again. I have watched practically almost all the play-off games so far unlike someone who just watches the lakers. But w.e floats your boat, if the best you can do is accuse me of not watching games.

If you wanna just cherry pick games, saying how last game Lebron just proves your point is weak. No one is immune to terrible games no matter how great they are.

It's like the same retards who said when Kobe played terrible against the Celtics in 2008 finals would forever tarnish his legacy no matter what.

No matter what you would like to believe about what the media has been saying about Lebron's supporting cast, they are hardly great(Nowhere near the best), and certainly worse than Kobe's supporting cast. You can try to refute that, but you would just prove that you know nothing about basketball.

You call my arguments absurd, but that's all you've said. You debunked nothing. You say debunked my arguments and yet you haven't even supported or backed up your statements with concrete facts.

I'm done here. Keep on hugging those balls tight. I know that's what helps you get through the day.

By the way, I gave you three years not just two. While I can't compare their whole careers number wise in clutch sats, but neither can you. So neither of us can really prove **** so you just go by however you would like to perceive things.

But the argument in who has been the best player currently and recent times, the only crutch that Kobe fans had was Kobe being more clutch and yet that has hardly been true. This year and past two years is enough sample size for that.

Plus overall production, it hasn't even been close between Lebron and Kobe.


Great Post. These Laker retards on this board are unreal. Most of the Laker fans on here seem like pretty good fellas, but LA BRONCOS FAN and his lover 24chump are unbearable. They are the Lex's of pro basketball.

OABB
05-13-2010, 12:50 PM
I wonder if Lebron had raped the nuggs all these years instead, what the votes would be like.

24champ
05-13-2010, 01:02 PM
Great Post. These Laker retards on this board are unreal. Most of the Laker fans on here seem like pretty good fellas, but LA BRONCOS FAN and his lover 24chump are unbearable. They are the Lex's of pro basketball.

http://www.gifbin.com/bin/042010/1270751973_trololo-guy.gif

TonyR
05-13-2010, 01:42 PM
Who the **** did Lebron ever go to war against? The Magic? Hilarious!

Who did he ever go to war with? I keep asking for LeBron's equivalent to Shaq in his prime but you Kobe fans always go silent on this point. Speaking of hilarious. And Kobe's later career Laker championship team supporting casts are much better than any team LeBron has ever had behind him. It's not even close, really. Have them switch places and what would the results be? Seriously, think about this a little more rationally.

Zoobie
05-13-2010, 01:54 PM
Then how do you explain the fact that Cleveland finished with the best record?



Not hearsay - actual interviews with players.



This only confirms that Lebron is a stat stuffer who plays great in the regular season but is a playoff choke artist.



ROFL!

Are you kidding me?

You throw out some stats from the last two years and pretend those stats account for Kobe's entire career?



ROFL!

"Mediocre?" You must not have watched the last series vs. Utah.

And what do you mean "Lebron doesn't have that luxury?" He has Shaq, Jamison, and the Big Z to go to in the post any given night.

Do you even know what position Jamison plays? Seriously, you have little to no credibility when you don't even know the position of the players you're talking about.

Maximus
05-13-2010, 02:17 PM
Ok I see the whining about the thread being destroyed and references to laker fans avoiding the question of who is lebums shaq. The shaq reference was put to bed with the last championship. The question really should be more like this...

Why can't lebum win with the same type of centers that Michael Jordan had or even magic Johnson and finally like Kobe had. Bill Cartwright, Bill winnington etc. Truth be told gasol is a power forward who plays center because he can. He's a highly skilled vlade divac .... Lebron has big z and the diesel so what is his excuse!!!

24champ
05-13-2010, 02:52 PM
Who did he ever go to war with? I keep asking for LeBron's equivalent to Shaq in his prime but you Kobe fans always go silent on this point. Speaking of hilarious. And Kobe's later career Laker championship team supporting casts are much better than any team LeBron has ever had behind him. It's not even close, really. Have them switch places and what would the results be? Seriously, think about this a little more rationally.

Great players make their teammates better.

Shaq benefited from Kobe and Kobe benefited from Shaq, that's a given. Those two were an unstoppable duo. Remember in 2000, when the Lakers won the Championship...Kobe carried the team in OT during game 4 when Shaq fouled out against the Pacers. So Kobe could carry the Lakers when needed, it wasn't all Shaq.

I haven't seen Lebron make his teammates better. Like some have already said, he is a bull...and he isn't that creative. Blame it on crappy cast of players if you want, Cavs made numerous trades and signings to help Lebron. After every deal, we hear from the experts that it puts the Cavs over the top.

Writing is on the wall, he's going to New York, and Cleveland won't see a Championship for eons.

ohiobronco2
05-13-2010, 03:04 PM
http://www.gifbin.com/bin/042010/1270751973_trololo-guy.gif

I'm guessing this was a naked picture of you. Stop all of your advances. I'm not interested. If LA BRONCO FAN only knew.

azbroncfan
05-13-2010, 03:04 PM
Great players make their teammates better.

Shaq benefited from Kobe and Kobe benefited from Shaq, that's a given. Those two were an unstoppable duo. Remember in 2000, when the Lakers won the Championship...Kobe carried the team in OT during game 4 when Shaq fouled out against the Pacers. So Kobe could carry the Lakers when needed, it wasn't all Shaq.

Oh the Pacers were such a tough team. Even if they lost game 4 it would of been an easy series. Actually everytime the Lakers have faced a legit healthy contender from the east they have lost with Kobe(Detroit and Boston).

ohiobronco2
05-13-2010, 03:06 PM
Ok I see the whining about the thread being destroyed and references to laker fans avoiding the question of who is lebums shaq. The shaq reference was put to bed with the last championship. The question really should be more like this...

Why can't lebum win with the same type of centers that Michael Jordan had or even magic Johnson and finally like Kobe had. Bill Cartwright, Bill winnington etc. Truth be told gasol is a power forward who plays center because he can. He's a highly skilled vlade divac .... Lebron has big z and the diesel so what is his excuse!!!

Name another HOF caliber player that LeBron has played with in his prime. Thanks for playing. MJ had Pippen. Kobe had Shaq. LBJ........

24champ
05-13-2010, 03:19 PM
Oh the Pacers were such a tough team. Even if they lost game 4 it would of been an easy series. Actually everytime the Lakers have faced a legit healthy contender from the east they have lost with Kobe(Detroit and Boston).

You don't have a good memory...the Pacers weren't a doormat either. If you can recall they gave us a pretty good beating in game 5.

As I said, Kobe was there to carry the team when needed. Kobe carried the Lakers through Sacramento, Portland, San Antonio with clutch shots, great defense etc. Shaq would agree, because Shaq famously declared Kobe the best player in the league during the playoffs then.

azbroncfan
05-13-2010, 03:31 PM
You don't have a good memory...the Pacers weren't a doormat either. If you can recall they gave us a pretty good beating in game 5.

As I said, Kobe was there to carry the team when needed. Kobe carried the Lakers through Sacramento, Portland, San Antonio with clutch shots, great defense etc. Shaq would agree, because Shaq famously declared Kobe the best player in the league during the playoffs then.

Yeah the Pacers that the Lakers were supposed to sweep. I remember it being a terrible NBA finals just like LA's other 3 at that time.

Maximus
05-13-2010, 03:54 PM
Name another HOF caliber player that LeBron has played with in his prime. Thanks for playing. MJ had Pippen. Kobe had Shaq. LBJ........

Now you need a HOF player. This argument is laughable. Shaq is a HOF player and lebum is going to lose with him. The truth is lebrawn is over rated and I would not start a franchise with him he's like Barkley ( Will never win a championship ) If I'm a gm with the outrageous choices in the poll I would start with Kobe or Howard.

Ultimately the good GM's always build a franchise with a dominant big man! Look at the championship teams and look at the centers through out NBA history All have dominant centers with the exception of Alvin Adams, Pau Gasol, Bill Cartwright and Jack Skima.

Dominique Wilkins, Charles Barkley > Lebrawn

BTW what HOF'er did Kobe have last year?

24champ
05-13-2010, 04:00 PM
Yeah the Pacers that the Lakers were supposed to sweep. I remember it being a terrible NBA finals just like LA's other 3 at that time.

It was boring compared to the Western Conference playoffs, sure. The Western Conference in those days were real fun. Lots of storylines involving the Spurs, Kings, and the then Jailblazers.

Clearly, the Eastern conference were still reeling from the fact Shaq left their Conference.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 04:38 PM
I know right. Bro these fellas don't know what they are talking about. Kobe Bryant for life. Straight ballin yo. Lakers in 3 vs the Suns. They will beat them so bably in the 1st 3 games, they will forfeit the 4th. Lakerz 4 lyfe. Kobe have my baby.

Spoken like a typical toothless hick and a Laker hater who's probably a fan of some team Kobe has torched repeatedly.

Anticipated response: "Kobe is a serial rapist!"

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 04:40 PM
I wonder if Lebron had raped the nuggs all these years instead, what the votes would be like.

Ha!

Exactly.

Most of the LeBrag voters are probably disgruntled Thuggets fans.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 04:43 PM
Sigh, all of them are just deflections and spins. I basically refuted all those statements already in my previous posts.


And then you woke up.

So far you've done nothing but cite cherry picked stats and peddle silly arguments in your efforts to crown Lebron "king."

24champ
05-13-2010, 05:24 PM
BTW what HOF'er did Kobe have last year?

*Crickets*

Maximus
05-13-2010, 05:34 PM
Ha!

Exactly.

Most of the LeBrag voters are probably disgruntled Thuggets fans.

It's a bogus poll anyway. I mean come on... no GM in their right mind is going to build a franchise around Carmelo Anthony or Dwayne Wade they are both superstars who need a strong center to win. So, you build from the middle outward in the NBA

TonyR
05-13-2010, 05:44 PM
BTW what HOF'er did Kobe have last year?

I'm fairly certain that Gasol, Bynum, Odom and Fisher compare favorably as a group to anybody LeBron has even played with. Get real.

TonyR
05-13-2010, 05:45 PM
It's a bogus poll anyway. I mean come on... no GM in their right mind is going to build a franchise around Carmelo Anthony or Dwayne Wade they are both superstars who need a strong center to win. So, you build from the middle outward in the NBA

You do realize that you just made an argument against Kobe as a franchise centerpiece, right?

Maximus
05-13-2010, 05:56 PM
*Crickets*

Absolutely :D

RhymesayersDU
05-13-2010, 06:05 PM
Can I ask the Laker fans an honest question? I've read parts of this thread, bits and pieces here and there. I haven't read it start to finish because it's just exploded and I haven't been able to keep up.

But my question for Laker fans:
Can anybody give me an honest assessment of LeBron's skills without giving him some stupid moniker and/or completely hating on the guy? And when I say assessment, I mean him and him alone. I don't want to hear "LeBron is good but Kobe is better." I want to hear what you guys think of LeBron the basketball player by himself.

Because look, I don't blame you guys for having Kobe's back. It's great. That's what sports are about. I totally get that the media has latched onto LeBron when he hasn't won anything. I get that on some level, Kobe is getting "pushed out" if you will. He's older, whatever. I truly get that, and I actually admire you having your boy's back. Look, if this question has already been answered, forgive me... I just see a lot of pumping up of Kobe and a lot of blatant pot-shots at LeBron. I guess I want to take this thread in a slightly different direction, if I may. I know the thread was meant to argue over players, but I am curious as to what Laker fans think of LeBron without the whole "vs. Kobe" thing looming.

Anybody?

Maximus
05-13-2010, 06:08 PM
You do realize that you just made an argument against Kobe as a franchise centerpiece, right?

Of the people on the poll Kobe and Howard are the only 2 that I would build with if I'm the GM. Read my comments! Historically the teams that win championships build with centers. That is not a slight to Kobe but a slap to you unrealistic Lebunk James fans. The Lakers always build around a center:

Mikan
Chamberlin
Kareem
Divac
Shaq
Gasol/Bynum

and you can bet your @$$ that we will wind up with Howard or one of the best centers in the NBA when Kobe retires and Gasol and Bynum are gone. Kobe demanded improvement from Mitch and Mitch went with the blue print of success get a solid center. So, now lebunk threatens to leave and what does cleveland do... They got Shaq. They know they cannot win without a decent center. Therefore this is not a slight to Kobe. The truth is Kobe is the only one on that list with the championship mentality.

Maximus
05-13-2010, 06:21 PM
Can I ask the Laker fans an honest question? I've read parts of this thread, bits and pieces here and there. I haven't read it start to finish because it's just exploded and I haven't been able to keep up.

But my question for Laker fans:
Can anybody give me an honest assessment of LeBron's skills without giving him some stupid moniker and/or completely hating on the guy? And when I say assessment, I mean him and him alone. I don't want to hear "LeBron is good but Kobe is better." I want to hear what you guys think of LeBron the basketball player by himself.

Because look, I don't blame you guys for having Kobe's back. It's great. That's what sports are about. I totally get that the media has latched onto LeBron when he hasn't won anything. I get that on some level, Kobe is getting "pushed out" if you will. He's older, whatever. I truly get that, and I actually admire you having your boy's back. Look, if this question has already been answered, forgive me... I just see a lot of pumping up of Kobe and a lot of blatant pot-shots at LeBron. I guess I want to take this thread in a slightly different direction, if I may. I know the thread was meant to argue over players, but I am curious as to what Laker fans think of LeBron without the whole "vs. Kobe" thing looming.

Anybody?

I think Lebron is a great player honestly. However, I see limitations in his game. The biggest is the fact that he has front runner mentality. When the ship is sailing smoothly he is completely dominant. Sure he's a decent rebounder and impossible to stop on a drive. His defense is very suspect and he relies on the blocked shot instead of keeping his man in front of him. But this is all about youth. When he ages a little more maybe he will use better defensive technique.

He's an average shooter from the outside ( Streaky ) Overall I rate him in the top 10 in the league but not the best in the league.

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Kevin Durant
3. Dirk Novitski
4. Dwayne Wade
5. Lebron James

Just a quick list

ohiobronco2
05-13-2010, 06:22 PM
Spoken like a typical toothless hick and a Laker hater who's probably a fan of some team Kobe has torched repeatedly.

Anticipated response: "Kobe is a serial rapist!"

Whoa daddy. Why so angry. I'm on your side. Lakerz 4 lyfe.

ohiobronco2
05-13-2010, 06:23 PM
I think Lebron is a great player honestly. However, I see limitations in his game. The biggest is the fact that he has front runner mentality. When the ship is sailing smoothly he is completely dominant. Sure he's a decent rebounder and impossible to stop on a drive. His defense is very suspect and he relies on the blocked shot instead of keeping his man in front of him. But this is all about youth. When he ages a little more maybe he will use better defensive technique.

He's an average shooter from the outside ( Streaky ) Overall I rate him in the top 10 in the league but not the best in the league.

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Kevin Durant
3. Dirk Novitski
4. Dwayne Wade
5. Lebron James

Just a quick list

After seeing this list, you can't be taken seriously. If you ever were.

ohiobronco2
05-13-2010, 06:25 PM
55-29. Well atleast the majority of the people participating have some basketball intellect.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 06:26 PM
Whoa daddy. Why so angry. I'm on your side. Lakerz 4 lyfe.

Oh - I get it: You think I'm your daddy.

Well, I've drilled quite a few hookers in Ohio, and I don't recall any of them looking like you.

Sorry about that. Ha!

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 06:27 PM
But my question for Laker fans:
Can anybody give me an honest assessment of LeBron's skills without giving him some stupid moniker and/or completely hating on the guy?

Great regular season player/playoff choke artist.

/thread

ohiobronco2
05-13-2010, 06:29 PM
You do realize that you just made an argument against Kobe as a franchise centerpiece, right?

Don't worry, he will back peddle. "Oh, what I really mean is......."

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 06:31 PM
I'm fairly certain that Gasol, Bynum, Odom and Fisher compare favorably as a group to anybody LeBron has even played with. Get real.

But the Cavs finished with the best record in the NBA this year.

They clinched so early that "the king" even sat the final few reg season games.

So if the Cavs' season ends tonight (or if they don't make it to the finals) will you once again blame Lebron's supporting cast?

RhymesayersDU
05-13-2010, 06:34 PM
I think Lebron is a great player honestly. However, I see limitations in his game. The biggest is the fact that he has front runner mentality. When the ship is sailing smoothly he is completely dominant. Sure he's a decent rebounder and impossible to stop on a drive. His defense is very suspect and he relies on the blocked shot instead of keeping his man in front of him. But this is all about youth. When he ages a little more maybe he will use better defensive technique.

He's an average shooter from the outside ( Streaky ) Overall I rate him in the top 10 in the league but not the best in the league.

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Kevin Durant
3. Dirk Novitski
4. Dwayne Wade
5. Lebron James

Just a quick list

Interesting. Not sure I agree with the list. With the players you listed, I'd put LeBron at 2 (or 1... hence the big debate...) I think. I love/fear Durant, but at the moment I don't think he's better than LeBron... I'm pretty anti-Dirk, and that may be a personal bias. DWade is interesting though.. I'd probably put him at 3 or 4, it'd be an interesting discussion of him vs. Durant... Dirk would be my #5, for sure.

ohiobronco2
05-13-2010, 06:35 PM
Oh - I get it: You think I'm your daddy.

Well, I've drilled quite a few hookers in Ohio, and I don't recall any of them looking like you.

Sorry about that. Ha!

How do you know what I look like. Are you stalking me. I'm sure the only thing you care about is that I have an adam's apple.

Hooker definition

a player in the game of rugby who tries to get the ball when the players are in a scrum.

Correct me if I'm wrong, men predominately play rugby. Phag.

RhymesayersDU
05-13-2010, 06:36 PM
How do you know what I look like. Are you stalking me. I'm sure the only thing you care about is that I have an adam's apple.

Hooker definition

a player in the game of rugby who tries to get the ball when the players are in a scrum.

Correct me if I'm wrong, men predominately play rugby. Phag.

I know that LABF can get under people's skin pretty easily, but even I think this post is moronic.

Sorry sir.

Maximus
05-13-2010, 06:37 PM
But the Cavs finished with the best record in the NBA this year.

They clinched so early that "the king" even sat the final few reg season games.

So if the Cavs' season ends tonight (or if they don't make it to the finals) will you once again blame Lebron's supporting cast?

Of course he will. The Crownless King can't do any wrong. I bet he won't shake hands tonight either...

Y'all know lebrawn wouldn't have a puppet if it weren't for Kobe lol

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 06:37 PM
All the Lebron voters have to hang their hats on are (selective) regular season stats.

Wonder why they don't consider post-season success an important criterion? Ha!

ohiobronco2
05-13-2010, 06:38 PM
I know that LABF can get under people's skin pretty easily, but even I think this post is moronic.

Sorry sir.

That's alright fella. I understand. I'm not typically like this, but I'm tired of this as*hole. You know what. Thanks for your post. I realize that I shouldn't continue this pissing match with him. We all know that Kobe has rings and LeBron doesn't. We also know that LeBron hasn't played on teams as good as Kobe has. His time will come. To top it all off, the majority of the people on here see things the way I do.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 06:41 PM
I know that LABF can get under people's skin pretty easily, but even I think this post is moronic.

Sorry sir.

Ha!

For you to say such a thing would practically constitute irrefutable evidence that the post in question was moronic indeed.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 06:43 PM
I'm not typically like this, but I'm tired of this as*hole.

:oyvey:

What a dishonest joke of a human being you are.

You were the fist one to make things personal and to come off the wall with the ad hominem attacks here.

You can dish it out but you can't take it.

Maximus
05-13-2010, 06:47 PM
Interesting. Not sure I agree with the list. With the players you listed, I'd put LeBron at 2 (or 1... hence the big debate...) I think. I love/fear Durant, but at the moment I don't think he's better than LeBron... I'm pretty anti-Dirk, and that may be a personal bias. DWade is interesting though.. I'd probably put him at 3 or 4, it'd be an interesting discussion of him vs. Durant... Dirk would be my #5, for sure.

I hear what you're saying about the list. The point that my list makes is all of those players do something that Lebron cannot do ... They can shoot from anywhere on the court. They are light years ahead of him offensively. I could easily put him at 10 by adding the following:

Steve Nash
Darrent Williams
Pau Gasol
Carmelo Anthony
B. Roy ( I forgot to add him )

Lebron is either Long range Jumper or drive that is it.

RhymesayersDU
05-13-2010, 06:50 PM
Of the people on the poll Kobe and Howard are the only 2 that I would build with if I'm the GM. Read my comments! Historically the teams that win championships build with centers. That is not a slight to Kobe but a slap to you unrealistic Lebunk James fans. The Lakers always build around a center:

Mikan
Chamberlin
Kareem
Divac
Shaq
Gasol/Bynum

and you can bet your @$$ that we will wind up with Howard or one of the best centers in the NBA when Kobe retires and Gasol and Bynum are gone. Kobe demanded improvement from Mitch and Mitch went with the blue print of success get a solid center. So, now lebunk threatens to leave and what does cleveland do... They got Shaq. They know they cannot win without a decent center. Therefore this is not a slight to Kobe. The truth is Kobe is the only one on that list with the championship mentality.

Here's a question, because I basically agree with your whole post. (I voted Dwight Howard for exactly this reason)

Do you think the Bulls could be recreated? Meaning, warm bodies at center but a nucleus of Jordan/Pippen and then other solid players (Kukoc, Rodman, Grant, etc) around? Was that only possible because Jordan was Jordan?

The more I see the league, the more I think a good/great PF or C is absolutely necessary. Unsure if that could be done again.

ohiobronco2
05-13-2010, 06:52 PM
:oyvey:

What a dishonest joke of a human being you are.

You were the fist one to make things personal and to come off the wall with the ad hominem attacks here.

You can dish it out but you can't take it.

Actually, I complemented the Lakers after their loss to the Celtics a few years ago. I stated.

"Congrats to the Celtics. Pierce, Allen, Garnett and PJ deserved this championship. Laker fans, don't hang your heads. Although your team was completely outplayed in this series, you have a bright future. If Bynum develops into the player many believe he will and other player begin to gel, there could be many championships in your future. You guys just ran into a hungrier veteran team."

To which I received rep from 24champ. "Good post. People could learn from you."

Then I post this a year later.

"The Lakers played dirty tonight. Can't believe Fisher did that, lost a lot of respect for him. Kobe doesn't want to start trouble with Ron, he's bat sh*t crazy. Frankly, I like Ron, he doesn't take sh*t from anyone and has enormous balls. Seriously, he was willing to take on anybody at the Palace. Kobe was atleast smart enough to put his arms up and listen to Ron, if he threw one punch, it would have been all over for him. Laker fans shouldn't refer to anybody elses team as thugs after tonight."

and I got this gem from 24Champ

"Lakers played like they had some ****ng balls. Quit your crying and go to the Girl Talk thread and you can talk about your issues there with the other women.



Kobe just threw up his hands because he is smart unlike Artest who is dumb as a box of rocks going after the referee and then Kobe. Honestly I have never seen that in a NBA game before. It was hilarious.

Kobe was doing what Artest does every game, bug people. Artest can dish it but he can't take it and that's Artests problem."

You guys have only grown more obnoxious from here. I'm all for having a legitimate basketball discussion, but I'm also not above playing your little games.

RhymesayersDU
05-13-2010, 06:55 PM
I hear what you're saying about the list. The point that my list makes is all of those players do something that Lebron cannot do ... They can shoot from anywhere on the court. They are light years ahead of him offensively. I could easily put him at 10 by adding the following:

Steve Nash
Darrent Williams
Pau Gasol
Carmelo Anthony
B. Roy ( I forgot to add him )

Lebron is either Long range Jumper or drive that is it.

Oh you were talking purely the jump shot/offensive capabilities. Makes more sense. I see what you're saying.

Maximus
05-13-2010, 07:01 PM
Here's a question, because I basically agree with your whole post. (I voted Dwight Howard for exactly this reason)

Do you think the Bulls could be recreated? Meaning, warm bodies at center but a nucleus of Jordan/Pippen and then other solid players (Kukoc, Rodman, Grant, etc) around? Was that only possible because Jordan was Jordan?

The more I see the league, the more I think a good/great PF or C is absolutely necessary. Unsure if that could be done again.

It can be done again and It was because of Jordan. Here's the thing that I think people are missing. Jordan had the greatest 15-10 foot offensive game in the history of the NBA. Guess who is next on the list ( Kobe Bryant ) You cannot live with long range jumpers and trying to force your way to rim.

So, yes Jordan was the sole reason behind that success.

Maximus
05-13-2010, 07:05 PM
Oh you were talking purely the jump shot/offensive capabilities. Makes more sense. I see what you're saying.

All around game I have to place him in the top 3 of the league though

RhymesayersDU
05-13-2010, 07:07 PM
All around game I have to place him in the top 3 of the league though

Agreed, his boards and assists and blocks are great, at least from a purely statistical standpoint.

TonyR
05-13-2010, 07:21 PM
3. Dirk Novitski


By your own standards, what has Nowitski won? And he's had a very good supporting cast many years, considerably better than any support LeBron has had.

TonyR
05-13-2010, 07:25 PM
So if the Cavs' season ends tonight (or if they don't make it to the finals) will you once again blame Lebron's supporting cast?

LeBron deserves a lot of "blame" for their "failure" if they "fail". But if he had a better supporting cast the chances of his success would increase. It's pretty simple. Kobe wouldn't have won his first three titles without Shaq, for example. He wouldn't even have come close. You should be able to figure this out.

Maximus
05-13-2010, 07:32 PM
By your own standards, what has Nowitski won? And he's had a very good supporting cast many years, considerably better than any support LeBron has had.

If Cleveland were in the west... They would never make the playoffs!!!

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 07:57 PM
Ha ha ha! :laugh:

Arguably the most important game of his career, and the "king" is a no-show.

Total deer in the headlights.

http://www.dweebist.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/fail-lebron-480x319.jpg

Watch the LBJ nut sac riders scatter like c_ckroaches now.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 08:02 PM
The Lebron voters on this thread will probably just try to counter with "well, he still had 27/19." Ha!

HEAV
05-13-2010, 08:03 PM
Lebron James = a buffer Scottie Pippen.

He's a damn good player. But he's not the man.

ohiobronco2
05-13-2010, 08:05 PM
Ha ha ha! :laugh:

Arguably the most important game of his career, and the "king" is a no-show.

Total deer in the headlights.

http://www.dweebist.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/fail-lebron-480x319.jpg

Watch the LBJ nut sac riders scatter like c_ckroaches now.

I can tell you that I'm not going anywhere. Sure he shot 8/21 and had 9 turnovers. He also scored 27 points had 19RBS, 10 assists, 3 steals and a block. Not a horrible game by any standards.

ohiobronco2
05-13-2010, 08:07 PM
Lebron James = a buffer Scottie Pippen.

He's a damn good player. But he's not the man.

He's 25 and still has plenty of time. He will win a ring, the question is where.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 08:08 PM
I can tell you that I'm not going anywhere. Sure he shot 8/21 and had 9 turnovers. He also scored 27 points had 19RBS, 10 assists, 3 steals and a block. Not a horrible game by any standards.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Right on cue!

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 08:08 PM
He's 25 and still has plenty of time. He will win a ring, the question is where.

But wait - I thought he was the "king" already?

Make up your mind.

ohiobronco2
05-13-2010, 08:10 PM
But wait - I thought he was the "king" already?

Make up your mind.

He is. He's the best individual player in the NBA. Just not a HOF player on a stacked team.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 08:15 PM
He is. He's the best individual player in the NBA. Just not a HOF player on a stacked team.

Ha ha ha! Ha!

There's that same lame excuse again.

News flash: The Cavs finished the regular season with a better record than that "stacked team," and they were heavy favorites to win it all this year.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 08:18 PM
I can tell you that I'm not going anywhere. Sure he shot 8/21 and had 9 turnovers. He also scored 27 points had 19RBS, 10 assists, 3 steals and a block. Not a horrible game by any standards.

The numbers you didn't mention:

Lebron in this series vs Celtics:

18 turnovers


22 Percent 3pt


46 Percent FG


74 Percent FT shooting

ohiobronco2
05-13-2010, 08:32 PM
Ha ha ha! Ha!

There's that same lame excuse again.

News flash: The Cavs finished the regular season with a better record than that "stacked team," and they were heavy favorites to win it all this year.

You've been preaching all along that the reqular season isn't the same as the post season. That championships matter and that is why Kobe is the superior player, so which is it. They also play in the weaker conference. The east is much better than it has been in the past, but top to bottom it is not as good as the west.

1. D Fisher vs M Williams -Toss up. Fisher is the much more intellegent player. Hard nosed veteran. Hits big shots. Mo is younger and a better scorer. Probably a better rebounder. Your guess is as good as mine to who is the better facilitator.

2. Kobe, doesn't matter who the Cavs put at 2. He is one of the best players in the NBA.

3. Lebron, but it's not like Ron Artest sucks. Artest has been an all league defender a few times in his career and made the all star team as a member of the Pacers I believe

4. Gasol vs Jamison. This isn't even that close. Jamison is a decent ball player, but he lacks the physicality down low. That is what a 4 really needs. Gasol has also been to a few (3) all star games himself. To make matters worse they can bring Odom off of the bench.

5. Shaq vs Bynum. Shaq is the past. Bynum is in the 2nd tier of Centers who could be the future if he could stay consistently healthy. Shaq is done and it really showed this year.

We don't need to compare coaches.

ohiobronco2
05-13-2010, 08:34 PM
The numbers you didn't mention:

Lebron in this series vs Celtics:

18 turnovers


22 Percent 3pt


46 Percent FG


74 Percent FT shooting

Actually I did mention his turnover problem. His 46% FG percentage is better than what Kobe shot for the year. He has always stunk it up from the line and people have speculated about why his outside shot has been poor.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 08:35 PM
At the end of the day, Kobe simply has a better arsenal and is a better defender. Lebron can put up gaudy stats that Kobe can't compete with, but Kobe is not competing against that. Kobe is trying to fill the "holes" in his game so that defenses have to give him something he can take advantage of. His "overall game" is better than Lebron's - it doesn't matter if Lebron averages a triple double.

ohiobronco2
05-13-2010, 08:39 PM
At the end of the day, Kobe simply has a better arsenal and is a better defender. Lebron can put up gaudy stats that Kobe can't compete with, but Kobe is not competing against that. Kobe is trying to fill the "holes" in his game so that defenses have to give him something he can take advantage of. His "overall game" is better than Lebron's - it doesn't matter if Lebron averages a triple double.

I think if you had been trying to make this case all along, less people would have had issues with you. I would probably agree with just about everything you just said. I view this situation much like I did when Kobe came into the league and Jordan was the top dog. Kobe is now on top, but LeBron will have his day.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 08:40 PM
The east is much better than it has been in the past, but top to bottom it is not as good as the west.


If that's true, then what's your excuse for the Cavs not making it out of their own conference? Ha!

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 08:41 PM
I think if you had been trying to make this case all along, less people would have had issues with you.

Is IS the case I have been making all along (see "stat stuffer" references.)

Where have you been?

ohiobronco2
05-13-2010, 08:44 PM
If that's true, then what's your excuse for the Cavs not making it out of their own conference? Ha!

At the top it is very good. The Celtics, Cavs and Magic are good teams. I'd say that only these 3 teams would be able to make the post season in the west. They reason the Cavs didn't make the post season is because they didn't play as well as they could have and the Celtics played like they did a few years ago. This is why they are so dangerous. Rondo is amazing and if they play the Lakers, Fisher will have difficulty guarding him like they did Westbrook.

24champ
05-13-2010, 08:46 PM
I think if you had been trying to make this case all along, less people would have had issues with you. I would probably agree with just about everything you just said. I view this situation much like I did when Kobe came into the league and Jordan was the top dog. Kobe is now on top, but LeBron will have his day.

Lebron plays a different position than Jordan and Kobe. So his games a little different than theirs.


He needs a fresh start, go to New York...play for D'Atoni (sp?)and maybe bring Bosh in the fold.

24champ
05-13-2010, 08:47 PM
At the top it is very good. The Celtics, Cavs and Magic are good teams. I'd say that only these 3 teams would be able to make the post season in the west. They reason the Cavs didn't make the post season is because they didn't play as well as they could have and the Celtics played like they did a few years ago. This is why they are so dangerous. Rondo is amazing and if they play the Lakers, Fisher will have difficulty guarding him like they did Westbrook.

Like with Westbrook, Kobe will shut him down...not Fisher.

ohiobronco2
05-13-2010, 08:50 PM
Is IS the case I have been making all along (see "stat stuffer" references.)

Where have you been?

I guess it's the first time I've read a post of yours that wasn't condescending. I'm not trying to say that I haven't been an a** on here, but you haven't done yourself any favors either. I think that Kobe is a better scorer and does change his offensive game to whatever the opposition gives him, but Lebron is superior to Kobe is several areas as well. Kobe can't pass or get boards like LeBron. Kobe does a better job from the strip and is a better defender, but LBJ can play and guard more positions. Both have strengths to their games.

ohiobronco2
05-13-2010, 08:51 PM
Like with Westbrook, Kobe will shut him down...not Fisher.

They didn't make the move initially and it hurt them at times. Kobe will limit Rondo, I don't think he will shut him down entirely.

ohiobronco2
05-13-2010, 08:53 PM
Lebron plays a different position than Jordan and Kobe. So his games a little different than theirs.


He needs a fresh start, go to New York...play for D'Atoni (sp?)and maybe bring Bosh in the fold.

It may happen. I think it is more likely that Lebron signs a short term deal and stays in Cleveland and gives it another go. Time will tell.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 09:08 PM
Greatness is defined during the playoffs. And LBJ has flamed out for the second straight year DESPITE the fact that the Cavs had the best record for 2 straight years now.

During the season when the Cavs played so well people couldn't wait to crown them. Saying that LBJ had so much around him and Jamison will just make them unstoppable.

Now after flaming out for the 2nd consecutive year people can't wait to blame his teammates and let him off the hook. "He has no supporting cast".

Draw the line already.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 09:13 PM
10th playoff game with 7+ turnovers for Lebron...ouch!

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 09:34 PM
What team has Lebron ever beaten in the playoffs that has been good? He has beaten Atlanta, Chicago, and Washington. He has gotten his ass stomped by Boston and Orlando. He caught Detroit at the right time as Flip sucked as their coach, and we all know that he doesn't win against them if they're coached by Larry Brown.

Shaq was the Finals MVP for the 3-peat, but Kobe was damn sure the MVP versus the West. He killed Phoenix, Sacramento, Portland, and San Antonio over and over again when they were at their toughest. He has killed teams out west ever since he has gotten a solid veteran at PG and a former all star big (which is what Pau was at the time.)

Lebron had 3 guys who were all stars last year, 4 full time NBA starters in the past in his rotation, and an all-team defender and one of the leading vote getters for 6th man of the year in Fat Carlito. You don't get the best record in the league 2 times back to back and not have help. Lebron just isn't good enough to win in the playoffs because he is still weak at what he was weak at coming into the NBA.

What Lebron was good at coming in (3s, passing, finishing, rebounding, driving, help defense) he is great at now.

What Lebron was bad at coming in (posting up, mid range shooting, one on one defense, free throws, playing off the ball) he is still just as bad at now.

He simply isn't the type of player who improves his weaknesses. He concentrates too much on making his strengths that much stronger, and he gets exposed because of it every year. After going on 7 years in the league there is no denying that as that habit is clear as day.

Jason in LA
05-13-2010, 09:42 PM
Good post, worm. You nailed it. Above is the OP. Kobe is by far the more accomplished player. The 18-22 year old version of LeBron is the player anybody who understands basketball would take to build a franchise around between the two players.

So if a person picks Kobe, they don't understand basketball?

I'm going to start using that. People who agree with me are the ones who really understand.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 09:50 PM
I don't know how it can be said Lebron is better than Kobe right now when Lebron's done and Kobe's still playing. If Lebron's team sucked, sure, because Kobe was the league's best player the years we were getting bounced by the Suns with a crappy team. The Cavs don't suck, though - they had the league's best record. They beat everyone, so this is on Lebron just like it would have been on Kobe had the Lakers lost last year. Had Kobe not been injured this season, this topic wouldn't have even been brought up. Kobe started the year dominating, then got hurt, and all of a sudden he was "done." Clearly he isn't though - he's out there hitting fadeaways and clutch 3s, being our leader winning games. That sounds like the better player to me. Lebron's taller, bigger and faster, no question, though. :laugh:

OABB
05-13-2010, 09:52 PM
I'm glad I voted for Kobe... Otherwise I would be petty embarassed right now.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 09:56 PM
Lebron is clearly not focused on being an NBA champion. He only cares about making money. He doesn't have the heart or drive to do anything but be a manufactured superstar. Everything was given to him. From the endorsements to his gift (which is freakish athleticism that will eventually fade away one day.)

He is focused on "chasing Warren Buffet and Jay z" as an NBA analyst stated in a column this past week. Kobe is focused on chasing NBA legends.

Lebron is nothing more than a spoiled poster child. A slightly more successful version of early 2000s Tracy McGrady. But what does success matter if you've been to the finals once only to be swept? He will crumble much like d whistle did because real legends work for what they have - they aren't given rings (or a plethora of freethrows.)

Kobe is king. Period. End of story.

24>23.

broncocalijohn
05-13-2010, 09:57 PM
Lebron plays a different position than Jordan and Kobe. So his games a little different than theirs.


He needs a fresh start, go to New York...play for D'Atoni (sp?)and maybe bring Bosh in the fold.

he caused the reaction for the fresh start. He has barely been in the league so there was no need for a fresh start. His team was on top with the best record. If he has any balls, he gets back to Cleveland and work his A$$ off to make that team competitive in the playoffs. Jordan would score 50 in the playoffs and lose. It took a few years but they became the best team for many years. He should suck it up and play for his home team. NY has glamour but that team sucks.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 09:57 PM
I'm glad I voted for Kobe... Otherwise I would be petty embarassed right now.

You're one of the few who didn't drink the BSPN Kool-Aid. :thumbs:

Houshyamama
05-13-2010, 10:01 PM
I had a feeling Cavs wouldn't even make it to the Eastern finals... wish I would have put money on it.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 10:06 PM
To me, it comes down to LeBron not having a polished game. It's a long jumper or drive in to crash against guys for touch fouls. When (on rare occasions) he doesn't get those foul calls he is useless. On defense, he is a weak side blocker - that's it. He is overrated on defense - much more so than Kobe. At least Kobe has the ability to defend when he sets his mind to it. Lebron is not "clearly" better than Kobe. Lebron had a good season stat-wise, and Kobe's injuries limited him - otherwise, it was neck and neck before those injuries. In fact, you could argue Kobe was much better and effective showing his post game early in the season.

It's not all about stats - anyone who watches the game knows this. For example, Kobe had more impact scoring 13 pts against OKC in Game 5 (and orchestrated EVERYTHING on both ends) than Lebron had tonight with a near triple double.

Houshyamama
05-13-2010, 10:11 PM
To me, it comes down to LeBron not having a polished game. It's a long jumper or drive in to crash against guys for touch fouls. When (on rare occasions) he doesn't get those foul calls he is useless. On defense, he is a weak side blocker - that's it. He is overrated on defense - much more so than Kobe. At least Kobe has the ability to defend when he sets his mind to it. Lebron is not "clearly" better than Kobe. Lebron had a good season stat-wise, and Kobe's injuries limited him - otherwise, it was neck and neck before those injuries. In fact, you could argue Kobe was much better and effective showing his post game early in the season.

It's not all about stats - anyone who watches the game knows this. For example, Kobe had more impact scoring 13 pts against OKC in Game 5 (and orchestrated EVERYTHING on both ends) than Lebron had tonight with a near triple double.

I'm not even interested in the Kobe vs. Lebron debate, they are very different players and Lebron hasn't accomplished anything but a couple of regular season MVPs anyway. He's not a winner when it counts, has an annoying personality (who the **** tattoos 'Chosen One' on his back??) and like you mentioned has no mid-range game. He ran around the perimeter all game tonight and when he got frustrated just lowered his head and tried to force his way in. IMO he could have been called for a lot of offensive fouls tonight.


OVER-RATED!!

btw I hate Kobe too ;D

24champ
05-13-2010, 10:13 PM
You're one of the few who didn't drink the BSPN Kool-Aid. :thumbs:

Speaking of BSPN, I had to turn it off since it looked like they were going to devote a whole night to LeBum speculation...

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 10:21 PM
Speaking of BSPN, I had to turn it off since it looked like they were going to devote a whole night to LeBum speculation...

I turned it off after Lebron was done taking question.

The guy sounded just as apathetic and nonchalant in the interviews as he looked during the last two games of his season. Ha!

azbroncfan
05-13-2010, 10:24 PM
They should combine the NBA thread and this one. Then they could get a cookie for LABF and 24Champ and let them have a circle jerk talking about how bad LeBron is and how great the Lakers are.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 10:40 PM
They should combine the NBA thread and this one. Then they could get a cookie for LABF and 24Champ and let them have a circle jerk talking about how bad LeBron is and how great the Lakers are.

Wow - way to contribute to the discussion.

You're bowling everybody over with your basketball knowledge - stop it!

Your post reeks of "sore loser-itis."

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 10:42 PM
They should combine the NBA thread and this one. Then they could get a cookie for LABF and 24Champ and let them have a circle jerk talking about how bad LeBron is and how great the Lakers are.

Voted for Lebron in this poll, did you? :wave:

Well, I guess you deserve some credit for showing your face here after tonight. Ha!

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 10:43 PM
I'm not even interested in the Kobe vs. Lebron debate, they are very different players and Lebron hasn't accomplished anything but a couple of regular season MVPs anyway. He's not a winner when it counts, has an annoying personality (who the **** tattoos 'Chosen One' on his back??) and like you mentioned has no mid-range game. He ran around the perimeter all game tonight and when he got frustrated just lowered his head and tried to force his way in. IMO he could have been called for a lot of offensive fouls tonight.


OVER-RATED!!

btw I hate Kobe too ;D

An unbiased opinion from an equal opportunity hater. ;) :thumbsup:

azbroncfan
05-13-2010, 10:49 PM
Voted for Lebron in this poll, did you? :wave:

Well, I guess you deserve some credit for showing your face here after tonight. Ha!

Without a doubt. Lebron has taken a team to the finals that was terrible. When Kobe had a similar team they were always the 8th seed on the verge of missing the playoffs. Kobe has proven he can only win when he has a stacked team and a HOF coach. This horse has been beaten time and time again. I don't know what you LA guys like more Kobe doing well or LeBron doing bad? Either way you LA guys can circle it up.