PDA

View Full Version : lets settle the NBA thread debate...POLL


Pages : 1 [2]

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 11:04 PM
Without a doubt. Lebron has taken a team to the finals that was terrible.

Huh?

Terrible?

Hello?

The Cavs finished with the best record in the NBA for the second year in a row!

Lebron choked in the playoffs two years in a row - despite having the best record.



When Kobe had a similar team they were always the 8th seed on the verge of missing the playoffs.

"Similar team?"

Surely you're not trying to compare the top-seeded Cavs to the team Kobe had with Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, and Luke Walton as his starters?

BTW, even during those miserable years, Kobe was still the league's leading scorer.


Kobe has proven he can only win when he has a stacked team and a HOF coach.

:giggle:

Next I suppose you will argue that Jordan was only successful because was coached by Phil Jackson and had Pippen around him.

In any event, your argument is bunk because it doesn't take into account that those "stacked teams" would not have won w/o Kobe either.

As I said before, Shaq was the Finals MVP for the 3-peat, but Kobe was definitely the MVP versus the West. He killed Phoenix, Sacramento, Portland, and San Antonio over and over again when they were at their toughest. He has killed teams out west ever since he has gotten a solid veteran at PG and a former all star big (which is what Pau was at the time.)

Lebron had 3 guys who were all stars last year, 4 full time NBA starters in the past in his rotation, and an all-team defender and one of the leading vote getters for 6th man of the year in Fat Carlito. You don't get the best record in the league 2 times back to back and not have help. Lebron just isn't good enough to win in the playoffs because he is still weak at what he was weak at coming into the NBA.

broncocalijohn
05-13-2010, 11:30 PM
Wow - way to contribute to the discussion.

You're bowling everybody over with your basketball knowledge - stop it!

Your post reeks of "sore loser-itis".

That doesnt start to happen until next week. AZ, you mad Nash wasnt on the thread list?

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 11:37 PM
^ I thought he was a Jazz fan? Ha!

In any event, the "sore loser" reference was as much about the fact that he voted for Lebron in this poll.

mr007
05-13-2010, 11:40 PM
I don't really think you can compare Kobe's supporting cast to Lebron's in any way whatsoever. Kobe came into the league with guys like Van Excel, Shaq, Elden Campbell, and Robert Horry around him....

Despite their success in the regular season, Lebron really doesn't have a great supporting cast no matter what way you spin it in your mind. He was obviously flustered in this series and quite honestly choked multiple times in his decision making.

For their overall game, from my perspective you have to give the edge to Kobe. His offensive and defensive game is simply more polished despite the obvious athletic advantage Lebron possesses. I don't think anyone can be wrong for picking either of these players to start their franchise with. They have inherently different talents and even though Lebron has been in the league for 7 years, he's still growing and has never been surrounded by the talent or coaching that Kobe has.

I think it's a pretty petty argument on who's better, both players will go down as NBA greats and I don't see how you can fault anyone's perspective for believing one is better than the other...

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 11:45 PM
Despite their success in the regular season, Lebron really doesn't have a great supporting cast no matter what way you spin it in your mind.

Once again, greatness is defined during the playoffs.

And LBJ has flamed out for the second straight year DESPITE the fact that the Cavs had the best record for 2 straight years now.

During the season when the Cavs played so well people couldn't wait to crown them - saying that LBJ had so much around him and Jamison would just make them unstoppable.

Now, after flaming out for the 2nd consecutive year, people can't wait to blame his teammates and let him off the hook. "He has no supporting cast".

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-13-2010, 11:54 PM
Despite their success in the regular season, Lebron really doesn't have a great supporting cast no matter what way you spin it in your mind.

You're the one who is doing the spinning here.

That is, the Cavs finish the regular season with the best record (two years in a row now) but when they flame out in the post season (also two years in a row now) then suddenly the fault lies with Lebron's supporting cast. Lebron is let off the hook once again.

Just quit with the excuse-making, already.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-14-2010, 12:07 AM
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/7407/tumblrl2e5dy3xki1qa2ol0.jpg

azbroncfan
05-14-2010, 05:41 AM
Huh?

Terrible?

Hello?

The Cavs finished with the best record in the NBA for the second year in a row!

Lebron choked in the playoffs two years in a row - despite having the best record.



"Similar team?"

Surely you're not trying to compare the top-seeded Cavs to the team Kobe had with Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, and Luke Walton as his starters?

BTW, even during those miserable years, Kobe was still the league's leading scorer.

Since I said the team that he got to the finals was a terrible team as far as making the finals I obviously wasn't talking about the past two years since neither team made it there. Eric Snow, Gibson and the rest of his supporting bums don't really strike fear into other teams. I know you have to elevate how good they were for your arguments. That team got by the pistons with a dominant series of by Bron Bron.

:giggle:

Next I suppose you will argue that Jordan was only successful because was coached by Phil Jackson and had Pippen around him.

In any event, your argument is bunk because it doesn't take into account that those "stacked teams" would not have won w/o Kobe either.

As I said before, Shaq was the Finals MVP for the 3-peat, but Kobe was definitely the MVP versus the West. He killed Phoenix, Sacramento, Portland, and San Antonio over and over again when they were at their toughest. He has killed teams out west ever since he has gotten a solid veteran at PG and a former all star big (which is what Pau was at the time.)

Lebron had 3 guys who were all stars last year, 4 full time NBA starters in the past in his rotation, and an all-team defender and one of the leading vote getters for 6th man of the year in Fat Carlito. You don't get the best record in the league 2 times back to back and not have help. Lebron just isn't good enough to win in the playoffs because he is still weak at what he was weak at coming into the NBA.

Beaten like a dead horse. The question was what player would you take to build a franchise around and LeBron is the answer. Too bad they couldn't poll this question to the GM's/coaches of the league.

azbroncfan
05-14-2010, 05:42 AM
That doesnt start to happen until next week. AZ, you mad Nash wasnt on the thread list?

No I am not a suns fan Jazz fan. I don't have loser itis either because I knew the Jazz had no chance against the Lakers healthy or not. These Laker guys just insist shoving this Kobe **** in your face kind of like a situation in Eagle CO. Just scroll through the last 50 posts here and see how many are LABF and 24champ talking LAL garbage and ripping Lebron while making excuses for Kobe.

Maximus
05-14-2010, 05:50 AM
What team has Lebron ever beaten in the playoffs that has been good? He has beaten Atlanta, Chicago, and Washington. He has gotten his ass stomped by Boston and Orlando. He caught Detroit at the right time as Flip sucked as their coach, and we all know that he doesn't win against them if they're coached by Larry Brown.

Shaq was the Finals MVP for the 3-peat, but Kobe was damn sure the MVP versus the West. He killed Phoenix, Sacramento, Portland, and San Antonio over and over again when they were at their toughest. He has killed teams out west ever since he has gotten a solid veteran at PG and a former all star big (which is what Pau was at the time.)

Lebron had 3 guys who were all stars last year, 4 full time NBA starters in the past in his rotation, and an all-team defender and one of the leading vote getters for 6th man of the year in Fat Carlito. You don't get the best record in the league 2 times back to back and not have help. Lebron just isn't good enough to win in the playoffs because he is still weak at what he was weak at coming into the NBA.

What Lebron was good at coming in (3s, passing, finishing, rebounding, driving, help defense) he is great at now.

What Lebron was bad at coming in (posting up, mid range shooting, one on one defense, free throws, playing off the ball) he is still just as bad at now.

He simply isn't the type of player who improves his weaknesses. He concentrates too much on making his strengths that much stronger, and he gets exposed because of it every year. After going on 7 years in the league there is no denying that as that habit is clear as day.

Read it and weep!

watermock
05-14-2010, 05:55 AM
wimper out.

pathetic.

Elbow, fine..say so.

He coasted.

mr007
05-14-2010, 07:24 AM
Once again, greatness is defined during the playoffs.

And LBJ has flamed out for the second straight year DESPITE the fact that the Cavs had the best record for 2 straight years now.

During the season when the Cavs played so well people couldn't wait to crown them - saying that LBJ had so much around him and Jamison would just make them unstoppable.

Now, after flaming out for the 2nd consecutive year, people can't wait to blame his teammates and let him off the hook. "He has no supporting cast".

I didn't let him off the hook, if you read my post I said he was obviously flustered and making bad decisions in the series. It doesn't help when your team as a whole is turning the ball over so much (not just James).

I really don't think regular season record says much.... so many factors go into that. The Celtics had injuries throughout the year and KG is just getting back to his old form which makes a big difference for them. As Pierce himself said, there are so many players from their team that can beat you which simply is not the case with the Cavs.... you contain Lebron and see if anyone else can step up for them, which more often than not isn't the case.

Anyway, I'm not going to argue more than that with you because you are so set with your opinion, and it's really pointless to take it further.

Kobe and Lebron are both great players and they will go down that way. Lebron will win his championships, one way or another.

TonyR
05-14-2010, 07:33 AM
Lets assume all players are just entering the league, 18-22 years old and you are building a team from scratch.

Which ONE player would you take first to build your team around?

this has nothing to do with teams, accomplishments, etc just the actual individual player.

Just once again reminding the Kobe lovers what the poll question was. See above. Why you keep comparing a later career Kobe on a better team with an earlier career LeBron on a lesser team I just don't know. If you're going to keep knocking LeBron for not winning titles, what's your excuse for Kobe for the 6 year stretch from the 02/03 season through the 07/08 season?

OABB
05-14-2010, 07:49 AM
Just once again reminding the Kobe lovers what the poll question was. See above. Why you keep comparing a later career Kobe on a better team with an earlier career LeBron on a lesser team I just don't know. If you're going to keep knocking LeBron for not winning titles, what's your excuse for Kobe for the 6 year stretch from the 02/03 season through the 07/08 season?

And I'm still shocked people would not pick Kobe. This board is so vagtastic with butthurt sometimes. Kobe at 18 was better than lebron and still is.

Mr.Meanie
05-14-2010, 07:52 AM
Since I said the team that he got to the finals was a terrible team as far as making the finals I obviously wasn't talking about the past two years since neither team made it there. Eric Snow, Gibson and the rest of his supporting bums don't really strike fear into other teams. I know you have to elevate how good they were for your arguments. That team got by the pistons with a dominant series of by Bron Bron.

I would say the only reason they got to the finals was because of the garbage East. They wouldn't have even made the playoffs in the West.

Lebron had a few brilliant games against the Pistons, but they were really the only 2 decent teams in the East, and that's not saying much.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-14-2010, 07:55 AM
Just once again reminding the Kobe lovers what the poll question was. See above.

Yep - we know.

And it changes nothing.


If you're going to keep knocking LeBron for not winning titles, what's your excuse for Kobe for the 6 year stretch from the 02/03 season through the 07/08 season?

Your comparison is invalid.

Lebron choked in the playoffs two years in a row when his team finished with the league's best record and was heavily favored to win it all.

PaintballCLE
05-14-2010, 08:05 AM
just tossing this out there.......... everyone is talking about Lebron going to NY with wade or bosch, etc.... Shaq's 20 mil a year is off the books now......maybe there is a chance bosch or wade come to Cleveland?

TonyR
05-14-2010, 08:21 AM
Lebron choked in the playoffs two years in a row when his team finished with the league's best record and was heavily favored to win it all.

Yes, LeBron did "fail". But what did Kobe do between '02 and '08? Didn't he suffer similar failure in those years to what LeBron has?

Once again, as I've said previously, Kobe is a great player and is clearly the more accomplished player to this point. But I would still chose an 18 year old LeBron James to build a franchise around over an 18 year old Kobe Bryant. This is not an easy decision and perhaps it would end up not being the right decision. But the comparisons you're using to supposedly validate that Kobe is the better choice are flawed.

OABB
05-14-2010, 08:42 AM
This board hates Kobe. I think it's obvious. From lex saying he never hit a game winner to this. It's laughable and quite sad really.

TonyR
05-14-2010, 08:54 AM
Kobe at 18 was better than lebron and still is.

Really? Really? Seriously?

Kobe's first year: 7.6 ppg, 1.9 rpg, 1.3 apg

LeBron's first year: 20.9 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 5.9 apg

I mean, come on. Really?

TonyR
05-14-2010, 08:57 AM
Kobe's second year: 15.4 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 2.5 apg

LeBron's second year: 27.2 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 7.2 apg

You should probably rethink the "young Kobe was better" argument.

HEAV
05-14-2010, 09:14 AM
just tossing this out there.......... everyone is talking about Lebron going to NY with wade or bosch, etc.... Shaq's 20 mil a year is off the books now......maybe there is a chance bosch or wade come to Cleveland?

:giggle: The chance is neagative. The isn't a city in Ohio that could compare to a Miami, NY or Chicago.

HEAV
05-14-2010, 09:19 AM
KG comments during the postgame presser!




"Honestly, he's gonna have to make a decision on not just him, but his family and his future," Garnett said when asked in his postgame press conference what LeBron would have to deal with.

"Loyalty is something that hurts you at times because you can't get youth back. I can honestly say that if I can go back and do my situation over, knowing what I know now with this organization, I'd of done it a little sooner."


Ouch! Take that Timberwolves!

cutthemdown
05-14-2010, 09:25 AM
just tossing this out there.......... everyone is talking about Lebron going to NY with wade or bosch, etc.... Shaq's 20 mil a year is off the books now......maybe there is a chance bosch or wade come to Cleveland?

I doubt it. The city of Cleveland just not an appealing place to live your life compared with NY or Chicago. It will be tough for them to compete. I feel for Cav's fans because players like Lebron don't come around but once every 10 yrs etc etc.

2KBack
05-14-2010, 09:55 AM
Kobe's second year: 15.4 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 2.5 apg

LeBron's second year: 27.2 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 7.2 apg

You should probably rethink the "young Kobe was better" argument.

If you are building a team, the growth of the player is very important. Kobe improved dramatically over the first 6 years of his career. the argument I've seen the most in regards to Lebron is that he has been basically the same player his whole career.

I know it was in response to the "Kobe was better at 18 claim," but still, you don't start a franchise with the player who is the best in year 1 or 2, you start with the one that will be the best in years 5-8.

Houshyamama
05-14-2010, 10:11 AM
I don't think it is fair at all to compare supporting casts between Lebron and Kobe.

Kobe has vastly more talented players around him, but the offense is not built solely around him. The offense in Cleveland has been built mainly on the idea that Lebron can take over the game whenever he wants to, do whatever he wants to on the floor. That's why you saw it fall apart, he couldn't penetrate the Celtics defense, he was almost useless. All he could do was rebound and pass or take long three's.

Kobe is still probably the most talented player in the league because of the versatility in his game. If you can stop Lebron's penetration and force him to take contested outside shots he's in trouble because he lacks a consistent mid-range game. While Kobe has better players around him, that is no excuse for Lebron. This is his team. It was built for him to shine. It begins and ends with him, and that's how he wanted it.

It was a selfish failure IMO.

TonyR
05-14-2010, 10:54 AM
If you are building a team, the growth of the player is very important. Kobe improved dramatically over the first 6 years of his career. the argument I've seen the most in regards to Lebron is that he has been basically the same player his whole career.

I know it was in response to the "Kobe was better at 18 claim," but still, you don't start a franchise with the player who is the best in year 1 or 2, you start with the one that will be the best in years 5-8.

I don't disagree with any of this. That being said, I also don't know that we've seen the best we'll ever see from LeBron. I'm fairly confident that we haven't. And for the record, I'm neither a Cleveland fan nor LeBron James fan so I'm not coming at this from some kind of biased viewpoint. I think Kobe is a great player. I just think LeBron has the potential to be even better. Whether or not he'll ever reach that potential is a whole other argument.

TonyR
05-14-2010, 10:58 AM
Kobe has vastly more talented players around him, but the offense is not built solely around him. The offense in Cleveland has been built mainly on the idea that Lebron can take over the game whenever he wants to, do whatever he wants to on the floor. That's why you saw it fall apart, he couldn't penetrate the Celtics defense...

Good point and good post.

Something that has been mostly overlooked in this thread is Phil Jackson. He has been instrumental in Kobe's success, just as he was in Michael Jordan's. Both were great players without Jackson but wouldn't have had as much success without him. Imagine how much LeBron could benefit from a coach like him and the triangle offense.

worm
05-14-2010, 11:00 AM
Lose with home-court advantage? LeBron already has fallen short of MJ and Kobe
http://blogs.mercurynews.com/kawakami/2010/05/14/lose-with-home-court-advantage-lebron-already-has-fallen-short-of-mj-and-kobe/

Yes, I know, LeBron James is still only 25. Heís a great, great player. But the clock is ticking, and you can bet he hears it ticking.

In a stunningly swift manner, James just finished his 7th NBA season with the Cavaliers, and in so many ways, your longevity and title-future is not about your age, itís about your NBA mileage.

And LeBron has some mileage. Letís take a look at some epic comparisonsÖ

-Larry Bird (who entered the league at 22) won three NBA titles in his first 7 seasons, and never won another one; back and heel injuries pulled him away from the game.

-Michael Jordan (who entered the league at 21) won his first title in his 7th season, the beginning of six titles in six full seasons, if you donít include his partial year after unretiring in 1995.

If James is going to get anywhere near the MJ track, he has to do it IMMEDIATELY. And Jordan stopped winning titles at age 34, his 12th full NBA season.

(He probably couldíve won at least 1 more in Chicago, but his mind and body were worn down, so he retired again. Then came back with Washington and never came close.)

Jordan had played 930 regular-season games through that point. LeBron has played 548.

That means LBJ has already played 59% of the regular-season games that Jordan had played in when he celebrated his sixth title.

-Magic Johnson (who entered the league at 20) won three titles by the end of his 7th season, won two more in his 8th and 9th seasons, then never won another one.

Magic was 28 when he won his last title with the Lakers, and had played in 639 regular-season games to that point, only 91 more than LBJís current total.

-Kobe Bryant (who, like James, came into the league as a teenager) won his first title in his 4th season, the first of three in a row, and won his 4th title last year, in his 13th season.


Bryant is currently working on title No. 5, and itís fairly urgent for him, because heís got the big NBA mileage:

Kobe has played 1,021 regular-season games, which is 115 more than Magic and only 51 fewer than Jordan played in their whole careers.

ĖOh, and to the topic of the headline of this itemÖ

My biggest sore point with James is that his Cavs teams have now blundered in two consecutive playoff seasons when they had home-court advantage in the Eastern Conference playoffs.

Itís one thing to lose to a great team in the playoffs, when you going into battle but canít get past the Isiah/Dumars Pistons or the Bird/McHale/Parish Celtics or even the Olajuwon Rockets.

But to be good enough to earn the No. 1 overall seed, then lose to Orlando last year and Boston this year?

Thatís not a circumstance befitting an all-time player, and James should right now be putting up an All-Time Resume.

The mileage rate says he should be well into his title run, if heís a Top 10 player, and LBJ is not doing that, especially by blowing home-court advantage.

* Kobe Bryantís teams have gone 24-1 in playoff series when theyíve had home-court advantage, and heís got another vs. Phoenix coming up, and will have another one in the NBA finals if the Lakers beat the Suns.

Bryant and Shaquille OíNeal were 15-1 with HCA when they were together with the Lakers, the only loss being in the finals to Detroit in 2004.

Since OíNealís departure, Bryant is 9-0 with HCA and, as weíve said, working on adding to that number soon.

* Birdís teams had a tougher time with HCAĖhe was 24-7 in such seriesĖbut in his prime, before the injuries piled up, it was another matter entirely.

Through the period of his title-winning seasons (1980-1986), Birdís teams were 17-2 with HCA, the only losses coming to the roaring 76ers in Birdís rookie and 3rd seasons.

After 1986, when Bird and McHale were usually healthy enough to win a lot of games but began breaking down in the playoffs, the Celtics were only 7-5 with HCA.

-Magic Johnsonís teams were 27-4 with HCA, but again, if you strip away his final, non-title winning seasons, the Lakers were 21-2 with HCA from 1980-1988.

In the prime period, Magicís teams only HCA losses were to Houston in 1981 and Houston again in 1986.

After 1988, Johnsonís Lakers were 6-2 with HCA.

* And the killer: Michael Jordanís teams never lost a series with HCA. Not one.

Jordanís Bulls were 23-0 when they had HCA. (He didnít make the playoffs with Washington.)

* LeBron is now 8-2 with HCA, which isnít bad, but again, the Cavs were the No. 1 overall seed in each of the last two seasons andÖ

-Lost this year as the No. 1 overall seed to East No. 4 Boston.

-Lost in 2009 as the No. 1 overall seed (with 66 wins) to East No. 3 Orlando.
The Cavs are 3-2 with HCA in the last two playoff seasons.

Iím always going to agree with people who point out that LeBronís teammates are well below average in any comparison, especially to Pippen (for Jordan), Kareem and Worthy (for Magic), prime Shaq or Gasol (for Kobe), and McHale and Parish (for Bird).

Iíve said it before, Iíll say it repeatedly: Antawn Jamison (14 points total in Games 5 and 6, terrible D) is not even approximately a prime playoff performer and nobody shouldíve ever thought he would be.

And Jordan and Kobe both had Phil Jackson coaching those series, which, obviously, is not exactly the same as LBJ suffering with Mike Brownís very, very limited offensive scheming.

Apparently that and everything else was so demoralizing for the Cavaliers that they all just quit in unison with over a minute left, down 9Ėno fouls, no manic desperation, just sagging surrender. Horrible.

Anyway, yes, I agree on all those things.

And I would mostly forgive LBJ for those thingsÖ if he was losing games and series to far superior teams, that had HCA and that had proven through a regular season that they were dominant or had transcendant players.

That is not the case you can make for Clevelandís losses to Orlando last year or Boston this year.

Weíll all write a million words on LeBronís future as a free agentĖthe Summer of LeBronís free agency just magically turned into the Spring of LeBron.

Chicago seems interesting. The Knicks always are an option. Miami. The Clippers. The Nets. Weíll see.

But this post is about two things:

1-LBJ doesnít have many more years to start winning titles, if he wants to win a bunch of them.

2-Thereís something missing there that other all-time greats have or had, because all-time greats in their primes do not habitually lose series with HCA.

You lose multiple series with HCA in your prime, youíre suddenly a lot more historically comparable to Dirk Nowitzki than you are to Jordan, Kobe, Magic or Bird.

TonyR
05-14-2010, 11:13 AM
Bill Simmons has a great article on game 5, linked below. Gives a lot of perspective on the whole thing. I thought this was particularly fitting for our discussion here:

...the "Kobe is better than LeBron" demo reacted to the game like Don Shula's house after the Tyree Catch. It's the trump card they desperately needed -- they can always throw Game 5 in any LeBron defender's face. Just remember, Kobe has laid more than a few big-game eggs as well (see sidebar to the right). It happens.

THE LIST OF KOBE NO-SHOWS
ē Game 6 of the 2003 Spurs series: Lakers eliminated in a 32-point blowout (Kobe scores 20, commits seven turnovers).

ē Game 3, Game 4 and Game 5 of the 2004 Finals: Kobe went 4-for-13, 8-for-25 and 7-for-21 as the Pistons finished off L.A.

ē Game 7 of the 2006 Suns series: Lakers lose by 32, Kobe mysteriously stops shooting in the second half in a rarely seen Eff You To My Teammates performance.

ē Game 4 of the 2008 Finals: Boston rallies back from 25 down to win in L.A. Kobe finishes 6-for-19.

ē Game 6 of the 2008 Finals: Boston wins the title with a 39-point blowout, Kobe goes 7-for-22.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100512&sportCat=nba

LOL!!! You Kobe fans have selective memories.

Here's more:

Look, I still believe LeBron will end up becoming one of the best six or seven players ever. I also believe we'll look back at this Cleveland stretch and end up blaming his coach and GM. For seven solid years, the fate of the Cavaliers depended solely and completely on how LeBron James played. It wasn't really fair. With that said, he has four flaws right now: He doesn't have a low-post game; he hasn't learned to play consistently well when he isn't 100 percent (like, say, Kobe or Nash have); he settles for 20-footers and 3s when he's not playing well (instead of just getting to the rim); and the way he floats in and out of playoff series is positively T-Mac-ian. The first three are fixable. I'm worried about the fourth. The T-Mac gene scares me. I'm not gonna lie.

And this from Charles Barkley:

"I gotta tell you something, Ernie," he said to Ernie Johnson. "As a fan -- and I've said all year that LeBron James was the best basketball player in the world -- but I'm 100 percent disappointed. Not the fact that he didn't have a good game, he clearly didn't have a good game. But his mentality Ö I go back, I played against a Michael Jordan, a Karl Malone, a Patrick Ewing, listen, their gun was gonna be empty by the end of the game. And I did not see that tonight. Clearly, it happened in Game 2. But tonight, in the biggest game of the season -- this was clearly the biggest game of the season -- I did not see the aggression that I needed from an MVP at home."

mr007
05-14-2010, 11:51 AM
Great post Worm and Tony definitely a good and spot on article by Bill and Barkley's thoughts.

2KBack
05-14-2010, 12:05 PM
I don't disagree with any of this. That being said, I also don't know that we've seen the best we'll ever see from LeBron. I'm fairly confident that we haven't. And for the record, I'm neither a Cleveland fan nor LeBron James fan so I'm not coming at this from some kind of biased viewpoint. I think Kobe is a great player. I just think LeBron has the potential to be even better. Whether or not he'll ever reach that potential is a whole other argument.

I'm not a fan of either, but I do think that Lebron James was crowned far too early. He really has all the time in the world to become what some people already think he is. What worries me a bit is that it seems like Lebron thinks just as highly of himself as the MVP voters. What always seperated guys like Jordan, Bird, Magic, and Kobe is the work they always put in to be better. I don't sense that with Lebron. Someone said it earlier, King James is more Dominique Wilkins than anybody right now.

What I find interesting is that people simply refuse to like Kobe Bryant. It's like no one outside of LA wants him to be the best player, which overall I think he probably still is.

TonyR
05-14-2010, 12:21 PM
-Larry Bird
-Michael Jordan
-Magic Johnson
-Kobe Bryant

Something to point out about each of these great players:
Bird had McHale, Parrish, Johnson, etc.
Michael never won before or after Pippen (or Phil Jackson).
Magic had Kareem, Worthy, etc.
Kobe had Shaq early, Gasol/Odom/etc. late (and Phil Jackson for all)

LeBron? He deserves the criticism he's receiving right now, but let's see what happens if/when he ends up in "better circumstances".

Houshyamama
05-14-2010, 12:45 PM
Good point and good post.

Something that has been mostly overlooked in this thread is Phil Jackson. He has been instrumental in Kobe's success, just as he was in Michael Jordan's. Both were great players without Jackson but wouldn't have had as much success without him. Imagine how much LeBron could benefit from a coach like him and the triangle offense.

Agreed. I don't think there is anyone in this thread that doubts Lebron's natural gifts. However, given how little he has delivered in his career thus far, one must ask what the problem is and I think it is a combination of coaching, the way the Cavs are built and possibly Lebron's drive to win it all.

I know it's a popular thing to say right now, but I've always felt he just doesn't get it. WINNING is all that matters, winning the title. Screw everything else.

Edit: why hasn't Lebron developed a mid-range game?

Houshyamama
05-14-2010, 12:48 PM
Something to point out about each of these great players:
Bird had McHale, Parrish, Johnson, etc.
Michael never won before or after Pippen (or Phil Jackson).
Magic had Kareem, Worthy, etc.
Kobe had Shaq early, Gasol/Odom/etc. late (and Phil Jackson for all)

LeBron? He deserves the criticism he's receiving right now, but let's see what happens if/when he ends up in "better circumstances".

Did anyone else cringe at how fat/slow Shaq looked out there?

TonyR
05-14-2010, 01:27 PM
Did anyone else cringe at how fat/slow Shaq looked out there?

Yep, go read the Simmons article I posted above. He talks about this and about how much better the Cavs were without him.

On behalf of all Celtics fans, I'd like to thank Brown for playing Shaq 112 minutes in the first five games -- he slows the Cavs down, clogs the middle for LeBron, stifles their movement offensively and gives the older Celtics an improbable speed advantage. It's fantastic. Not counting the last four games of the regular season (when LeBron didn't play), Cleveland went 21-4 when Shaq didn't play. But seriously, keep playing him!


ESPN just posted a new Simmons article on the LeBron topic. I haven't read it yet but here's the link.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100514&sportCat=nba

Houshyamama
05-14-2010, 01:41 PM
Yep, go read the Simmons article I posted above. He talks about this and about how much better the Cavs were without him.

On behalf of all Celtics fans, I'd like to thank Brown for playing Shaq 112 minutes in the first five games -- he slows the Cavs down, clogs the middle for LeBron, stifles their movement offensively and gives the older Celtics an improbable speed advantage. It's fantastic. Not counting the last four games of the regular season (when LeBron didn't play), Cleveland went 21-4 when Shaq didn't play. But seriously, keep playing him!


ESPN just posted a new Simmons article on the LeBron topic. I haven't read it yet but here's the link.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100514&sportCat=nba

:thumbsup::spit:

Houshyamama
05-14-2010, 01:59 PM
ESPN just posted a new Simmons article on the LeBron topic. I haven't read it yet but here's the link.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100514&sportCat=nba

GREAT article. And I'm usually not a fan of Bill Simmons :thumbs:

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-14-2010, 04:40 PM
THE LIST OF KOBE NO-SHOWS


I wouldn't call those "no-shows" - I would call them bad games (which everybody from MJ to Kobe to Lebron experiences.)

A no-show is when you don't even try - like Lebron in games 5 and 6 (the latter possibly the most important game in franchise history.)

Kobe may have bad games, but he never gives up - he always goes down fighting.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-14-2010, 04:43 PM
If having Mo Williams / Antoine Jamison / Anderson Varejao / JJ Hickson / Shaq as a role player / Big Z as a third string player is not a good roster then I don't know what is. You fail to understand that there are regular season players and there are playoff players. A few months ago everyone was saying that Cleveland wouldn't lose when they landed Jamison. What they didn't count on was that like last year, most of the players on this Cleveland team fail to show up for the playoffs, especially when series are so tight. They lack that killer instinct - and that includes Lebron too.

You may say Lebron on the Lakers wouldn't lose a game, but I believe you are wrong because if the Lakers didn't have Kobe & Fisher at the end of all those important playoff games, series like Utah and Oklahoma could've gone the other way. Lebron doesn't have the killer instinct that Kobe (or Fisher for that matter) have. Lebron may get his triple doubles, but that's because that team revolves around him touching the ball 2 - 3 times every possession and that's precisely why this team fails to beat good veteran teams. Their offense is so predictable that just by taking Lebron out of the equation, you can beat them in a 7 game series. Kobe gets his points, 5 rebounds and 5 assists playing TEAM basketball and getting others involved.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-14-2010, 04:52 PM
In response to the argument that Lebron has better stats so that means he's a better player than Kobe, that completely ignores the two very distinct and different systems that Kobe and Lebron play in and it neglects the two different styles they have.

For Lebron, he's the sole focus of the offense. He literally touches the ball every single play and usually he holds the ball to initiate the offense. This means he will have inflated assist and points stats, since he is usually either the one to throw the last pass leading to the made bucket (especially during kickouts when he drives to the hoop), or he muscles his way for the dunk/layup. He also dribbles a lot and launches up a three every now and then, but he also has the space for this luxury due to his amazing athleticism. Since the offense is tailor-made for Lebron, he doesn't often find himself taking a last second desperation shot (but it does happen).

In contrast, Kobe plays in the triangle - meaning he does not always have the ball in his hands. Often times he sets up the offense and to do that he needs to give up the ball, not as an assist but as a setup pass to achieve the proper spacing such as giving it inside to Gasol or Bynum. This leads to less points and definitely less assists for Kobe, since he doesn't make the last pass before the made bucket all the time, and he doesn't drive nearly as much and instead he relies on his jump shot to help give Gasol and Bynum the space they need to operate. He also takes the desperation last second shot when the triangle stutters, and this alone greatly decreases his FG%.

As for the rebound disparity, that's partially explained by Lebron's larger size and physique which makes it much easier for him to box out and grab the rebound, and it's also due to the fact that Kobe tends to wait on the perimeter and away from many rebound opportunities in order to get back on defense and/or start the fast break.

Lebron has a better FG% since his incredible athleticism allows him to get many easy shots on the inside by forcing his way to the hoop, and coupled with generous calls he becomes difficult to effectively stop. Thus teams are usually forced to trap him on the inside and usually his defender will sag off a bit to get ready for any possible drive. That gives Lebron more space than Kobe has to shoot a jumper when he wants. Kobe is known primarily as a jump shooter, that's been his game for much of his career. This results in a lower FG% since teams do not sag as much on him since they don't have to worry as much about Kobe driving to the hoop. Combined with the desperation shots Kobe takes as I mentioned before, and it's not too surprising to see why Kobe has never had a high FG% like LeBron.

It's two different styles, two different systems, and to say the stats proves one player is better than the other completely ignores this important context.

In terms of leadership and man defense (not help/chase defense where Lebron's athleticism clearly gives him a huge advantage over Kobe), I don't think anyone who really follows the NBA will claim Lebron is better than Kobe. In terms of team performance, again, I don't think anyone will say Lebron has the edge over Kobe - considering Kobe's teams have 4 rings and Lebron's teams have none. In terms of killer instinct, Kobe wins again, for while Lebron is statistically clutch in crunch time, he seems to have trouble in high pressure situations in the playoffs despite the triple-doubles and superior stats. Lebron will get his stats, but his team doesn't flourish when it counts the most, and this to me is a powerful indicator that there's something about Kobe's leadership and game that Lebron currently lacks.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-14-2010, 05:10 PM
Bill Simmons has a great article on game 5, linked below.

Simmons is an established Laker hater and Celtics fan, BTW.

At least he doesn't try to hide his bias, I'll give him credit for that.

OABB
05-14-2010, 05:18 PM
I wouldn't call those "no-shows" - I would call them bad games (which everybody from MJ to Kobe to Lebron experiences.)

A no-show is when you don't even try - like Lebron in games 5 and 6 (the latter possibly the most important game in franchise history.)

Kobe may have bad games, but he never gives up - he always goes down fighting.

plus kobe won 4 championships, so a few bad games here and there are not the norm.


Lebron is setting a pattern of Phillip Riversing in the playoffs.

Houshyamama
05-14-2010, 05:41 PM
plus kobe won 4 championships, so a few bad games here and there are not the norm.


Lebron is setting a pattern of Phillip Riversing in the playoffs.

I think it's to the point where it's the other way around.

Rivers is pulling a Lebron.

Lebron does not want to go down this road, if he is seen as a choke artist and someone who can't win the big games... people will start to not care about all his hoopla in the regular season.

YAWN, show us some rings Lebron or take the tattoo off your back. It would be one thing if he was humble, but he's really not. In his head, he's already the best... and it's not a confidence thing, it's an entitlement to him.

PaintballCLE
05-14-2010, 08:06 PM
I doubt it. The city of Cleveland just not an appealing place to live your life compared with NY or Chicago. It will be tough for them to compete. I feel for Cav's fans because players like Lebron don't come around but once every 10 yrs etc etc.

true, but i think even if they both went to NY........the rest of the players there are actually worse than clevelands.....

PaintballCLE
05-14-2010, 08:16 PM
I honestly think that comparing Lebron to Kobe, magic, jordan, Bird etc... is a bit misleading because of the types of players each of them are. All of them except for Bird were predominatly guards......Lebron is a Small forward with a power forwards body. Bird was a forward, but he was predominatly a outside shooter. Lebron is not an outside shooter.....he a driver/passer/etc. So to say he doesn't hit the big shots when it counts is a little misleading........his game is driving to the basket.....and scoring if he can, or if he gets doubled.......passing it to the open teammate for an open shot. The problem is they weren't hitting the shots, and shaq didn't help either because his man was already in the paint waiting to help on lebron.

So i agree lebron could have palyed a ton better........100%

So i agree its all his fault.........no

TonyR
05-14-2010, 08:22 PM
If having Mo Williams / Antoine Jamison / Anderson Varejao / JJ Hickson / Shaq as a role player / Big Z as a third string player is not a good roster then I don't know what is.

Simmons disagrees.

From the moment he entered the NBA, he's been asked to do everything himself. He's never had a good coach. He's never had a great teammate, or even a very good one. These past two years, he's been asked to vacillate between Magic Mode and MJ Mode depending on the situation. Because his front office screwed up so many times, his supporting cast ended up being a peculiar blend of hand-me-downs, discount guys and bargain pickups from teams that wanted to cut salary. It ended up being too much. One-man teams don't win titles.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100514&sportCat=nba

Great dissection of LeBron. The comparison to Julius Irving is interesting.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-14-2010, 08:33 PM
Lebron is probably one of the greatest physical specimens ever to set foot on the NBA hardwood. LBJ would've sealed this debate re: who is currently the best "player" by going to Ohio State for 1-2 years to get some basic structure for his game. Right now if I were to compare Kobe to Lebron in terms of super speed cars, Kobe would be one with handling - the abilty to hit a turn at 90-95mph. Lebron would a drag race car - the ability to stop and go. He does not have the ability to hit the NBA’s corners at 95-100mph. He can go fast, but there is not much control to his game. He is just skilled enough not to crash or wipe out. I have the feeling the hype has taken his mindset to a level that will no longer allow him to become a student of the game. He needs to humble himself for 3 months and get in the lab. Breakdown tape of his game and have someone tell him where he can become lethal. For some reason, he does not want to do that. He has been in the league 7 years, and he looks just like he did in year 2 or 3. Cannot count year 1 because he was coming straight from High School. No addition to his game. This has been stated. Lakers fans know what Kobe has done to improve his game. Conversations with the great Jerry West, Michael Jordan and 1-on-1 sessions in Houston, TX with The Dream about his post game. By the way, The Dream told the sports news that Kobe was "very humble and extremely intelligent." He went on to say that if you show Kobe a move, it would only take him 2 or 3 attempts to perfect that move. Then he would do it over and over again with perfection. That is greatness. I have never heard anyone speak of Lebron this way.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-14-2010, 08:38 PM
Lebron is setting a pattern of Phillip Riversing in the playoffs.

Ha!

Yet the Lebron ball washers are still so high on the BSPN Kool-Aid they can only blame the same Cavs supporting cast that finished with the league's best record for the second straight year.

Meanwhile, in the real world, Lebron's credibility as "the king" just took a huge hit.

extralife
05-14-2010, 09:04 PM
yeah, that record really had nothing to do with LeBron, I'm sure.

I like how this thread has morphed into some strange "Kobe is an unselfish player" thing. Hasn't Kobe been identified as a selflish player his entire career? Didn't LeBron just average 9 assists a game for a season with one real shooter on his team?

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-15-2010, 02:20 AM
yeah, that record really had nothing to do with LeBron, I'm sure.

Doesn't matter.

No matter how you try to spin it, you can't justify the fact that LeBron and his supporting cast finished with the league's best record two years in a row, and were heavily favored to win it all - only to choke in the playoffs. We're talking back to back choke jobs when you're favored to win it all.

Your argument is even more ridiculous in light of the fact that LeBron did manage to take a lesser team to the finals in '07 - although that team's path to the finals was admittedly pretty easy.

Hasn't Kobe been identified as a selflish player his entire career?

His "entire" career?

Only haters and media know-nothings would take such a broad brush characterization seriously.

extralife
05-15-2010, 02:59 AM
Doesn't matter.

No matter how you try to spin it, you can't justify the fact that LeBron and his supporting cast finished with the league's best record two years in a row, and were heavily favored to win it all - only to choke in the playoffs. We're talking back to back choke jobs when you're favored to win it all.

Your argument is even more ridiculous in light of the fact that LeBron did manage to take a lesser team to the finals in '07 - although that team's path to the finals was admittedly pretty easy.

Well, <i>I</i> certainly never thought the Cavs were favored to win it all, either this year or last. I really think they are a ****ty team with a transcendent player plopped in the middle. I think LeBron <i>could</i> win a title or two in this situation, but I certainly don't think he should be favored to. I put a lot of stock in the win totals and numbers he put up for that team, and I think they take a minimum of a ten win hit if you replace LeBron with any other player in the NBA.

About the choking thing--I don't know. As you've said, LeBron took that ****ty Cavs team to the finals in '07. He beat Detroit by himself with a series as dominant as we have seen in the last ten years. In the playoffs last year, he was truly great. He lost to Orlando through no real fault of his own. This year, yeah, it was a little different. But even then, look at the numbers--they're borderline great. LeBron is so supremely gifted that when he puts up a statline like 27 19 10 we have to ask what is wrong with him. That's ridiculous. And yet, yeah, there <i>was</i> something wrong with him. That tells you all you need to know, really--that he can do that in the playoffs with what was essentially his C game. I don't put a whole lot of stock in this being his ceiling or whatever, that he can't perform in the playoffs or that he is a choker. I don't buy that at all. I don't see it in the slightest. Am I a little surprised at how off he looked those last two games? Obviously. But for all we know, it could have just been frustration as it dawned upon him that, yes, his teammates really do suck and his coach has no idea what he's doing, and if he's going to beat a team with championship pedigree, an ability to play defense, three hall of famers and an all-star point guard playing the best basketball of his life, then he's going to have to do it completely by himself.

TonyR
05-15-2010, 06:29 AM
...they can only blame the same Cavs supporting cast that finished with the league's best record for the second straight year.


You're leaving out the part about how LeBron had to carry that mediocre team to the best record in the NBA. Generally he has to play well in order for them to win. That works in the regular season. But the game changes a little bit in the playoffs. Boston, a very talented, veteran team that is playing really well, took away LeBron's strengths (mostly driving to the basket) and exploited his "weakness" (outside shooting, post up game).

LeBron didn't play well enough, and didn't play with enough passion and fire. But you're also not giving Boston any credit. They're finally healthy and playing really well. Boston arguably had 5 of the best 6 players in the series. That wouldn't be the case with any other team that made it to this stage of the playoffs.

As with any great player LeBron needs more help. Either a better supporting cast, a better coach (what did Jordan or Kobe win without Phil Jackson?), or both. Magic had it. Bird had it. Jordan had it. Kobe had it/has it. When LeBron has this everyone will mostly forget about his "failings" just as they did with Julius Erving as Bill Simmons details in the article I linked previously.

Maximus
05-15-2010, 08:47 AM
You're leaving out the part about how LeBron had to carry that mediocre team to the best record in the NBA. Generally he has to play well in order for them to win. That works in the regular season. But the game changes a little bit in the playoffs. Boston, a very talented, veteran team that is playing really well, took away LeBron's strengths (mostly driving to the basket) and exploited his "weakness" (outside shooting, post up game).



The focus is the bolded part of your statement. Boston has eliminated Cleveland twice using the same formula. They took away Lebrons strengths and made him into an ordinary player. No other great would allow this to happen. They would have doubled their effort in the offseason and came back with a counter. Lebron didn't do this. He has the same game same style. He cannot bogart his way to being the best. He has to work at it. It's disgusting to me to see how work ethic is being ignored and tossed aside for raw talent. Absolutely annoying to have otherwise intelligent people filled with so much bias against the person who has worked at his craft to be the best.

These same people have decided that their bias against Kobe warrants passing the Mantle of the Greatest player to an undeserving player who is for lack of a better term a lot like Jamarcus Russell!! Strong arm natural talent but no desire to work, no killer instinct, no offseason development but a huge sense of entitlement! The people who put this pretender on the throne should be ashamed of themselves.

Michael Jordan was passed the torch after Chicago beat the Lakers in the finals. Magic Johnson, Bird and others came out and said it. Until the current Greatest player passes the torch Lebron ( Or is it LeMarcus James ) is nothing more that Charles Barkley + Dominique Wilkins both great talents who never won a title!

FADERPROOF
05-15-2010, 09:20 AM
The focus is the bolded part of your statement. Boston has eliminated Cleveland twice using the same formula. They took away Lebrons strengths and made him into an ordinary player. No other great would allow this to happen. They would have doubled their effort in the offseason and came back with a counter. Lebron didn't do this. He has the same game same style. He cannot bogart his way to being the best. He has to work at it. It's disgusting to me to see how work ethic is being ignored and tossed aside for raw talent. Absolutely annoying to have otherwise intelligent people filled with so much bias against the person who has worked at his craft to be the best.

These same people have decided that their bias against Kobe warrants passing the Mantle of the Greatest player to an undeserving player who is for lack of a better term a lot like Jamarcus Russell!! Strong arm natural talent but no desire to work, no killer instinct, no offseason development but a huge sense of entitlement! The people who put this pretender on the throne should be ashamed of themselves.

Michael Jordan was passed the torch after Chicago beat the Lakers in the finals. Magic Johnson, Bird and others came out and said it. Until the current Greatest player passes the torch Lebron ( Or is it LeMarcus James ) is nothing more that Charles Barkley + Dominique Wilkins both great talents who never won a title!

You're really gonna lump the 2008 series against Boston into this discussion? Wow, that's just desperation...

Speaking of Magic Johnson, wanna take a guess at who he thinks is the best player in the NBA?

RhymesayersDU
05-15-2010, 09:22 AM
You know what I think is great?

That we settled the debate.

(Seriously, this is a good thread as I love a good hoops discussion but the title to the thread is very amusing.)

Maximus
05-15-2010, 10:18 AM
You're really gonna lump the 2008 series against Boston into this discussion? Wow, that's just desperation...

Speaking of Magic Johnson, wanna take a guess at who he thinks is the best player in the NBA?

Of course I'm bringing up 2008. It has to be brought into the conversation. If you love basketball and the greats like I do you'll understand why.

Yes I'm a die hard Laker Fan since I was 5 years old that puts me at 40 years ( OMG Lord Have Mercy!!! ) I say this because I absolutely hated Larry Bird for some of the same reasons ( Media ) that I don't like Lebron. See... I hated Larry Bird because he was every thing that Lebron isn't. Larry Bird was a ****ing assassin! He would cut your throat out and feed it to you... Then smile at you as you gagged and he would probably try to convince the victim that he was choking on Prime Rib or Lobster Tail!!!

The media used his race to promote him which is different but still the media was wrong because Bird was going to be one of the best because of hard work just like Magic! Bird worked on his mental game to compensate for his lack of speed and other natural gifts. Bird was not quick enough to play head to head defense... so what did he do? He perfected playing in the passing lanes and using his teammates to cut off angles etc.

Remember when Magic was called tragic after blowing it in the playoffs. He came back a better shooter and learned how to play better pick and roll basketball... Not 2 years later... The next season Magic went absolutely ape sh*t from behind the 3 point line!!! If you left him open back there he would destroy you... His game went to a level that nobody thought was capable!!!

Now rewind to 2008... Lebron got handled by the Celtics. They took his game away from him and dared him to beat them a different way... did he accomplish the task??? No!!! 2009 Lebron comes back the same player faces the Celtics in the 2010 Playoffs and they use the same defense... same result... What does that tell you??? Lebron didn't do sh*t to improve!!! Lebron had no Magic or Bird Solution.... I won't even dare bring up Jordan! Jordan is strait up Gangster, Mafia Hitman as far as basketball is concerned! I hated Jordan too... But notice I don't hate Lebron. If you missed it go back and read it. I don't like lebron!

Lebron has to force me to hate him... You see there is a thin line between Love and Hate! So, lets recap. From 2007 thru 2010 Lebron has not improved his ability to shoot a mid range jumper or the ability to shoot a pullup jumper or post up! that is 3 things that need improvement. Guess what that is 3 offseasons for each thing to be perfected. This puts him at 2013 before he has a complete set of NBA skills comparable to the greats! Kobe has all those skills already and is winning championships.

One final twisted dagger for you. I'm starting to Hate Kevin Durant! I bet you he comes back this season with something new in his arsenal... How about the ability to post up... How scary will that be!!! Durant is humble and has the work ethic you draw the conclusion. Why is Oklahoma better than Cleveland Right now a team of nobodys surrounding Durant and yet they gave the Lakers fits! Lebron... surrounded by Shaq and better players... you draw the conclusion!!

RhymesayersDU
05-15-2010, 10:32 AM
You're hating Kevin Durant? Get in line. Between Derron Williams, Brandon Roy and Kevin Durant, I have so much basketball hate (within my own division to boot!) it's unreal. And then we get to Kobe, Dirk, etc!

Maximus
05-15-2010, 10:39 AM
You're hating Kevin Durant? Get in line. Between Derron Williams, Brandon Roy and Kevin Durant, I have so much basketball hate (within my own division to boot!) it's unreal. And then we get to Kobe, Dirk, etc!

:D I feel you on that. But Durant is the sleeping monster!

FADERPROOF
05-15-2010, 12:15 PM
Of course I'm bringing up 2008. It has to be brought into the conversation. If you love basketball and the greats like I do you'll understand why.

Yes I'm a die hard Laker Fan since I was 5 years old that puts me at 40 years ( OMG Lord Have Mercy!!! ) I say this because I absolutely hated Larry Bird for some of the same reasons ( Media ) that I don't like Lebron. See... I hated Larry Bird because he was every thing that Lebron isn't. Larry Bird was a ****ing assassin! He would cut your throat out and feed it to you... Then smile at you as you gagged and he would probably try to convince the victim that he was choking on Prime Rib or Lobster Tail!!!

The media used his race to promote him which is different but still the media was wrong because Bird was going to be one of the best because of hard work just like Magic! Bird worked on his mental game to compensate for his lack of speed and other natural gifts. Bird was not quick enough to play head to head defense... so what did he do? He perfected playing in the passing lanes and using his teammates to cut off angles etc.

Remember when Magic was called tragic after blowing it in the playoffs. He came back a better shooter and learned how to play better pick and roll basketball... Not 2 years later... The next season Magic went absolutely ape sh*t from behind the 3 point line!!! If you left him open back there he would destroy you... His game went to a level that nobody thought was capable!!!

Now rewind to 2008... Lebron got handled by the Celtics. They took his game away from him and dared him to beat them a different way... did he accomplish the task??? No!!! 2009 Lebron comes back the same player faces the Celtics in the 2010 Playoffs and they use the same defense... same result... What does that tell you??? Lebron didn't do sh*t to improve!!! Lebron had no Magic or Bird Solution.... I won't even dare bring up Jordan! Jordan is strait up Gangster, Mafia Hitman as far as basketball is concerned! I hated Jordan too... But notice I don't hate Lebron. If you missed it go back and read it. I don't like lebron!

Lebron has to force me to hate him... You see there is a thin line between Love and Hate! So, lets recap. From 2007 thru 2010 Lebron has not improved his ability to shoot a mid range jumper or the ability to shoot a pullup jumper or post up! that is 3 things that need improvement. Guess what that is 3 offseasons for each thing to be perfected. This puts him at 2013 before he has a complete set of NBA skills comparable to the greats! Kobe has all those skills already and is winning championships.

One final twisted dagger for you. I'm starting to Hate Kevin Durant! I bet you he comes back this season with something new in his arsenal... How about the ability to post up... How scary will that be!!! Durant is humble and has the work ethic you draw the conclusion. Why is Oklahoma better than Cleveland Right now a team of nobodys surrounding Durant and yet they gave the Lakers fits! Lebron... surrounded by Shaq and better players... you draw the conclusion!!

In 2008 the Cavs weren't gonna beat the Celtics regardless of how LeBron James performed. The Celtics had a younger, healthier Garnett along with Pierce, Allen, Rondo and Perkins with guys like James Posey and Eddie House off the bench. The Cavs starting lineup consisted of Delonte West, Wally Szcerbiak, LeBron James, Ben Wallace, and Z.

And to say that LeBron hasnt improved is plain negligence on your part. His FT, FG, and 3PT percentages have all gone up year after year(last 2 years have stayed consistent and is shooting over 50% from the floor now, I'll take it.) He also is making big strides in the post, even ask George Karl who had nothing but praise for his work ethic and desire to become better while coaching him on the olympics team, but don't fault LeBron for Cleveland having an idiotic head coach that can't even make matchup substitutions, let alone in game adjustments. In the past couple years he has also gone from a defensive liability to being an annual selection on the NBA all-defense team.

Believe me, half the stuff I agree with you on about LeBron, I'm just not taking it to the extreme and saying that is not improving andisnt doing **** about it. Right now with LBJ, it's the intangibles, after the Cavs were eliminated I wrote a little pargraph in the official NBA thread here about why I've always said that Kobe is a better player than LeBron and I still stick with those thoughts today after the frustration of being eliminated is gone. LeBron has it in him to be the best player in the lague and no one is there to stop him except himself.


And how can you hate Kevin Durant? The guy is awesome and if Kobe is 1a and Lebron 1b then Durant is either 1c or 2. Him and Russell Westbrook are going to be dangerous for many years to come.

Zoobie
05-15-2010, 12:24 PM
Brandon Roy>NBA.

TonyR
05-20-2010, 06:46 AM
Wondering if the Kobe fans are willing to admit to a couple of things after the first two games of the respective conference championship series...

1) The Celtics team that knocked LeBron's Cavs out is pretty good and playing well, and

2) Kobe has a very good supporting cast in Gasol, Artest, and Odom, considerably better than LeBron's help.

Any objections to this?

ohiobronco2
05-20-2010, 07:26 AM
Wondering if the Kobe fans are willing to admit to a couple of things after the first two games of the respective conference championship series...

1) The Celtics team that knocked LeBron's Cavs out is pretty good and playing well, and

2) Kobe has a very good supporting cast in Gasol, Artest, and Odom, considerably better than LeBron's help.

Any objections to this?

Tony, good luck getting them to agree to this. However, I agree 100%.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-20-2010, 07:58 AM
^ The real question is are you willing to admit that Lebron quit on his team in game 5 and, his usual stuffing of the stat sheet notwithstanding, was unable to impose his will and close what might have been the most important game in franchise history in game 6?

Are you ready to admit that Lebron is a great regular season player who doesn't have the work ethic, heart, drive, or killer instinct to be a champion?

Are you ready to admit that Lebron is a great athlete but not yet a complete basketball player (and hasn't really earned a place in any discussion comparing him to MJ, Kobe, et al?)

I know I won't be holding my breath waiting for you to even entertain the thought that Lebron the manufactured star deserves even the smallest share of blame for his team's post season collapse.

(The media won't say it out loud - I guess we can't expect you to say it.)

Mr.Meanie
05-20-2010, 08:02 AM
If Durant keeps improving at the pace he has been and doesn't get derailed by injuries, he could end up being one of the best of all time. The kid is freakishly talented, and that combined with a freakish work ethic and humility is going to put him into a league most professional athletes never even come close to.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-20-2010, 08:06 AM
Wondering if the Kobe fans are willing to admit to a couple of things after the first two games of the respective conference championship series...

1) The Celtics team that knocked LeBron's Cavs out is pretty good and playing well, and

2) Kobe has a very good supporting cast in Gasol, Artest, and Odom, considerably better than LeBron's help.

Any objections to this?

You forgot:

3) The same Cavs team that choked in the semi-finals finished (for the second year in a row) the regular season with the NBA's best record, swept the defending champions in the regular season, and was heavily favored to win it all this season.

4) All season long we were assured that James finally had the personnel around him to win a title - only to watch the media and the Lebron jock riders do an about face and blame James' supporting cast the minute the team was eliminated.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-20-2010, 08:08 AM
If Durant keeps improving at the pace he has been and doesn't get derailed by injuries, he could end up being one of the best of all time. The kid is freakishly talented, and that combined with a freakish work ethic and humility is going to put him into a league most professional athletes never even come close to.

I agree.

And, unlike Lebron, Durant has the requisite humility to be a serious, life-long student of the game.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-20-2010, 08:20 AM
Great article explaining why 24>23.

LeBron James' Summer Job Is Watching Kobe Bryant

May 19, 2010, 9:19 PM EDT

by Scott Soshnick

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-05-19/lebron-james-summer-job-is-watching-kobe-bryant-scott-soshnick.html

May 20 (Bloomberg) -- Most professional athletes, especially the otherworldly talented types like basketball’s LeBron James, want nothing to do with the sport once their season ends.

If they can’t be in it, they don’t much care who wins it.

Yet hibernating for the duration of the National Basketball Association playoffs would be a missed opportunity for James, who, no matter which uniform Cleveland’s coveted free agent chooses next season, ought to fixate on Kobe Bryant. Any athlete still learning what it takes to win it all can take away something from watching the sporting world’s most cold and calculating killer.

Get a ticket; sit in the stands and watch. Study Bryant. Just Bryant. Every possession. Every time out. Every interview. Every stare, scowl, glare and grin. Every clenched jaw.

Four quarters. One man.

There’s an understandable tendency among basketball fans to follow the basketball. The student of the game watches everything but.

The real story of any basketball game occurs away from the ball, where 7-footers vie for territory and space for themselves and teammates. It can be beautiful, just like a Ray Allen follow-through.

The real story unfolds in the huddle, where a seething Bryant doesn’t give a damn about trampled feelings while snarling at a less-talented teammate to do better next time, to do more, to do something.

Defending Champion

Bryant and his defending champion Los Angeles Lakers entered last night’s game against the Phoenix Suns with a 1-0 lead in the Western Conference final. The Suns, you’ll recall, bounced Bryant from the 2006 and 2007 playoffs, his first tests as team leader after the Lakers made him the face of the franchise by jettisoning Shaquille O’Neal.

Those disappointments left Bryant waiting to exact his revenge on someone, anyone. Even last season’s title didn’t soothe that seething. Not against this team. Here, once again, are the Suns. Or Los Suns. Bryant’s Game 1 performance, in any language, spoke volumes.

Forty points on 13-of-23 shooting. Twelve free-throw attempts. Five rebounds. Five assists.

“Just being aggressive, playing my game,” Bryant said. “Got shots, took them. Got lanes to the basket, took them.”

Taking is the key.

Bryant takes what he wants, which is to win. Lakers coach Phil Jackson, who coached Michael Jordan, another competitor beyond compare, said Bryant shouldered the game.

“He was going to take it on,” the coach said.

There’s that take word again.

Game Control

Bryant controlled the game, from start to finish, was the assessment of Suns coach Alvin Gentry.

James, meantime, took and shouldered nothing in the pivotal Game 5 against the Boston Celtics, shrinking instead of rising. Watching Bryant makes clear there are no respites. Not during the playoffs.

There are no excuses, either.

James had a sore elbow. Bryant has a sore knee, a bad finger on his shooting hand and who knows what else. Not that you’d ever know.

Maybe James was looking past the Celtics to the Orlando Magic, who ousted the Cavs from last season’s Eastern Conference final. James was so upset that he refused to congratulate the victors. There will be no rematch. Not this season. Maybe not ever.

Apparently James didn’t digest enough of Bryant’s how-to-win tutorial at the Olympics in Beijing, where the Lakers star embraced his role as team sage.

Laker Loyalty

Celtics star Kevin Garnett says James, a native of Akron, Ohio, shouldn’t let hometown loyalty stand in the way of winning. Bryant made lots of noise about his team’s shortcomings, but he stuck with the Lakers. Here they are. Again.

There’s no way that Bryant would say anything derogatory about James, whose free agency seems to be a bigger storyline than even the games themselves.

Surely Bryant, who has four championship rings and the chance at another, must marvel at all the fawning that surrounds a so-called king who has never been crowned a champion.

Man, oh, man, if we could ever coax an honest assessment of James from Bryant, who hasn’t always been the best teammate.

Maybe James is too good of a teammate, wanting to be one of the fellas, wanting to be liked by everyone.

Bryant doesn’t care about being liked. He only cares about the scoreboard. So did Jordan, who once punched teammate Steve Kerr in the face during practice.

The Cavaliers owner, Dan Gilbert, has, at long last, come to the realization that regular-season records don’t much matter. The playoffs are a different animal.

What James must understand is that winning is a learning process.

It will be difficult emotionally, but James’s summer school should really include Kobe 101.

Jason in LA
05-20-2010, 08:22 AM
Wondering if the Kobe fans are willing to admit to a couple of things after the first two games of the respective conference championship series...

1) The Celtics team that knocked LeBron's Cavs out is pretty good and playing well, and

2) Kobe has a very good supporting cast in Gasol, Artest, and Odom, considerably better than LeBron's help.

Any objections to this?

Yeah, the Celtics are playing really well (so are the Lakers). At this point I'd say the Lakers would steam roll the Cavs or Magic, but the Celtics grit and toughness is going to give the Lakers a run for their money. LeBron and the Cavs just don't have that championship grit.

Yes, Kobe does have a better supporting cast. But if LeBron can lead his team to the best record two years in a row, he shouldn't get embarrassed in the playoffs two years in a row. And why is he quitting at pivotal moments? People talk about Kobe quitting in games. Ah, he quit when his team was down by 25 points in the 4th period in Game 7 against the Suns. LeBron did that very same thing a few weeks later against the Celtics. If I'm remembering right, he scored a single point in the second half in a Game 7 blow out. Kobe got blasted for it, but nobody said anything about LeBron doing it.

Why do people always make excuses for the guy? He's a great player. He's going to rack up MVP awards. But at this point he just isn't a winner. Kobe is.

TonyR
05-20-2010, 10:05 AM
^ The real question is are you willing to admit that...

I'd actually admit to most, if not all, of these things to at least some degree. However none of this means that I still wouldn't choose a young LeBron to build a franchise around. There are valid concerns that he'll never reach his potential, but I still think he has more potential than any current NBA player.

azbroncfan
05-20-2010, 10:22 AM
All this thread needs is a Kobe poster, room with all the Laker Homers and a jar a vaseline and let them beat their puds while all singing koombya.

ohiobronco2
05-20-2010, 12:32 PM
^ the real question is are you willing to admit that lebron quit on his team in game 5 and, his usual stuffing of the stat sheet notwithstanding, was unable to impose his will and close what might have been the most important game in franchise history in game 6?

Lebron did quit on his team in game 5. I've never addressed in on this forum before, but he did. Don't act like kobe has never given up. He nearly gave up on the franchise a few years ago when he wanted to be traded. I don't feel lebron quit in game 6. He tried and came up short against a superior opponent. Hasn't this happened to kobe before? I know it is hard to imagine considering he plays with 3 all star caliber players on his team.

are you ready to admit that lebron is a great regular season player who doesn't have the work ethic, heart, drive, or killer instinct to be a champion?

He is a great player in regular and post season. He laid an egg at times during the playoffs, but who knows what impact his strained elbow had on his performance. I do agree that he looked out of it in game 5. How do you know what his work ethic is? You don't know what his does on a day to day basis.

are you ready to admit that lebron is a great athlete but not yet a complete basketball player (and hasn't really earned a place in any discussion comparing him to mj, kobe, et al?)

No. He is far from complete. He still needs to develop a better mid range game. He has improved in this area. I think you fail to realize that he is only 25. He is however better at this age than kobe has ever been or will be at rebounding and assists. His court vision is far superior.

i know i won't be holding my breath waiting for you to even entertain the thought that lebron the manufactured star deserves even the smallest share of blame for his team's post season collapse.

You come with the same stuff over and over again. I know i haven't been the most mature person on here, but you and your laker buddies with your lebag so forth and so on don't even attempt to concede any points on your arguements. You simply reuse the same arguements over and over. I can admit that lebron does share blame as a member of the cavaliers for their post season exist, now can you admit that kobe has been the beneficiary of stacked teams. Also, that lebron is a superior player to kobe in some aspects.
(the media won't say it out loud - i guess we can't expect you to say it.).
:sunshine:

OABB
05-20-2010, 12:43 PM
I would totally choose Lebron to build a team around, than I would bet against them in the playoffs and be rich.

Jason in LA
05-20-2010, 01:06 PM
People like to justify LeBron quitting in a game to Kobe, but it's two different things. Like I said in my last post, Kobe quit in the 4th period of a game where they were down by 25 points. In the game that LeBron quit, he never even showed up. His team had like an 8 point lead in the second quarter with him not doing a single thing. Then when the Celtics scored 15 points in a row, LeBron didn't do anything to stop the bleeding. They could have won that game, but LeBron didn't show up from the start. He lost that game on purpose. How a can a player do that in a game that was that important? Sorry, but that's different from what Kobe did. LeBron shot his team in the foot. Lost on purpose. Kobe didn't do that.

Maximus
05-20-2010, 06:33 PM
<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FCiu78IVp0Y&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FCiu78IVp0Y&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

ohiobronco2
05-21-2010, 04:11 PM
http://www.theonion.com/articles/fluid-just-happy-to-have-had-opportunity-to-build,17479/


:rofl:I guess we finally have our answer.


LOS ANGELES—Calling the experience "a true honor" and "the opportunity of a lifetime," the infected synovial fluid recently drained from Kobe Bryant's right knee told reporters Monday that there is no other basketball player it would rather have accumulated in.
Describing itself as humbled and privileged to have affected the NBA All-Star's mobility for even so short a time, the contaminated collection of mucin and albumin said it would always cherish every moment it spent collecting in Bryant's appendage, from the initial stages of infection to its last moments of arthrocentesis.
"Kobe Bryant's is the knee all joint fluids dream of building up in," the semi-viscous mix of blood and uric acid said during a press conference at the Lakers' training facility. "There were times, especially during the first two rounds of the playoffs, when I had to pinch myself and say, 'Holy crap! You're inflaming Kobe Bryant's right knee! Kobe Bryant. Not some role-playing knee like Andrew Bynum's knee, or Kendrick Perkins' knee, but Kobe freaking Bryant's.'"
"People have asked me if I would have rather built up in LeBron's knee instead of Kobe's," the fluid added. "And while it would have been exciting to help deteriorate LeBron's articular cartilage, Kobe is an NBA champion."
According to the infected fluid, it considered accumulating in the former MVP's knee a "one-shot deal," and tried to enjoy every wince and buckle it caused as if it were the last.
The fluid also personally thanked Oklahoma City forward Kevin Durant for pushing the Lakers' first playoff round to six games, saying that the unexpectedly long series allowed it to really savor its time in Bryant's knee.
"I knew they wouldn't let me build up forever," the arthritis-induced fluid said. "So when I saw that 20-gauge syringe enter the joint capsule, I took comfort in the thought that I built up as best I could before I was sucked out."
Doctors close to the 1.2-ounce specimen said it began collecting in Bryant's joint cavities toward the end of the season, but didn't become inflamed and straw-colored until the playoffs. Beaming with obvious pride, the non-Newtonian pseudoplastic material noted that it was the same fluid that accumulated during Bryant's 39-point performance in Game 2 of the series against the Thunder, and that it went on to become the very thixotropic liquid that contributed to the swelling of Bryant's knee throughout the Western Conference semifinals.
"Not bad for a fluid that just two months ago was nothing more than a subcutaneous element in a normal, uninfected synovial membrane," the particulate-rich residue continued. "Not bad at all."
Calling it "a wild ride while it lasted," the knee fluid said it would always have fond memories of its gradual buildup during plane trips to different cities, postgame interviews, and the Lakers' four-game sweep of the Utah Jazz.
"How many aggravated lubricin compounds can say that they were building up in an MVP's knee while he was leading his team to the next round of the NBA Playoffs?" it said. "Well, any fluid who follows sports will tell you there are only three: Willis Reed's knee fluid in 1970, fluid from Magic Johnson's busted bursa sac in '85, and Jordan's fluid in 1997."
"Pretty good company, if you ask me," the fluid continued.
While the diseased liquid admitted that it would have been able to build up even more hyaluronic acid had Bryant not sat out during between-game practices, and had the team's trainers not been so meticulous in icing the knee down after games, the fluid said those were just minor setbacks in what was ultimately the experience of a lifetime.
"If my young, healthy, polymer-of-disaccharide self ever caught me actually complaining about harmfully building up in Kobe Bryant's knee, then in about two seconds it would disperse me onto the connective tissues out of sheer disgust," the cloudy sample characterized by an abnormal level of white blood cells said. "Some fluids only get to build up in obese, office-softball-league players and that's as far as they ever go. I consider myself very lucky."
"Now, would I like to be the fluid that is currently building up inside Kobe's knee during the Western Conference finals?" the fluid added. "Absolutely. I'd be a lying specimen jar of medical waste if I said I wouldn't. But I had my turn, and frankly, I'm exhausted. It's time for another fluid to get its chance at glory."

TomServo
05-22-2010, 12:55 AM
the NBA has totally Sucked since the 80's. when short shorts went out of style so did an entertaining NBA.
just watch the highest scoring NBA game ever. the Pistons vs. the Nuggets. even a A Total Thug like Bill Lambier(sp) could hit a simple 16 footer and hit his freethrows compared to Shaq?
Gimme Nuggets 1984 over any 2000's team

Maximus
08-09-2012, 11:10 PM
Of the people on the poll Kobe and Howard are the only 2 that I would build with if I'm the GM. Read my comments! Historically the teams that win championships build with centers. That is not a slight to Kobe but a slap to you unrealistic Lebunk James fans. The Lakers always build around a center:

Mikan
Chamberlin
Kareem
Divac
Shaq
Gasol/Bynum

and you can bet your @$$ that we will wind up with Howard or one of the best centers in the NBA when Kobe retires and Gasol and Bynum are gone. Kobe demanded improvement from Mitch and Mitch went with the blue print of success get a solid center. So, now lebunk threatens to leave and what does cleveland do... They got Shaq. They know they cannot win without a decent center. Therefore this is not a slight to Kobe. The truth is Kobe is the only one on that list with the championship mentality.

Just figured I would bump the subject

Rohirrim
08-10-2012, 07:23 AM
Lakers get Howard. Nyah!