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epicSocialism4tw
05-10-2010, 04:41 PM
I'd like to see what some of the ideas here are.

Public sentiment and logistical issues prevent some options:

1. Mass Deportation - this is simply impossible given the lack of resources in law enforcement.

2. Open Borders - this is not a solution that Americans will approve, and its not a viable solution for the country. This would lead to a collapse of the infrastructure of border states, and later, the country. Not a solution.


Okay, the plan that I think would work...

1) Close the Borders - construct a fence. Increase law enforcement presence on the border including tunnel-detecting and breech-detecting technology.

2) Establish Naturalization Path - a) require knowledge of American politics, history, the English language, federal laws, and local laws...establish naturalization classes for a cost, b) pay naturalization penalties for breaking the law (its important to reestablish the law as the standard)

3) Enforce Immigration Law - begin fining employers who employ illegal aliens, begin deporting criminals, begin deporting all illegals who do not meet the naturalization standards (immediately deport felons imprisoned or not), and after a grace period that allows families to raise money for naturalization process, begin deporting those who do not follow through with stipulations that the path to naturalization can be continued if money is raised in Mexico.

etc.

Anyway, that's my take on some of the issues. What's your idea?

tsiguy96
05-10-2010, 04:44 PM
a fence will not do anything, but there needs to be actual deportation of illegal people, if yyou enter the country illegally you should not be given free reign to do wahtever, you should be kicked out if caught.

Quoydogs
05-10-2010, 04:51 PM
I think it is pretty simple to solve the problem of them over here. Fine the hell out of the businesses that hire them. Nothing happens to the people that hire them right now that is the problem. It would need to be a huge fine also.

The real problem is, are people ready to take there jobs?

{point} Will Americans pull weeds all day for minim wage

Next are American ready to pay the price increase ?

I think the real problem lies in the fact that most Americans want to nothing and get paid big money for it. I mean its the American way.

Just my two cents. Flame on !

worm
05-10-2010, 04:51 PM
Annex Mexico.

Dagmar
05-10-2010, 04:53 PM
Quimby: People, your taxes are high because of illegal immigrants!

Moe: Immigants! I knew it was them! Even when it was the bears, I knew it was them.

http://www.3click.tv/mp4//The%20Simpsons/season7/metadata/55603.jpg

tsiguy96
05-10-2010, 04:53 PM
I think it is pretty simple to solve the problem of them over here. Fine the hell out of the businesses that hire them. Nothing happens to the people that hire them right now that is the problem. It would need to be a huge fine also.

The real problem is, are people ready to take there jobs?

{point} Will Americans pull weeks all day for minim wage

Next are American ready to pay the price increase ?

I think the real problem lies in the fact that most Americans want to nothing and get paid big money for it. I mean its the American way.

Just my two cents. Flame on !

not exactly, americans want to get paid enough money to live on, and getting paid minimum wage is not enough to live on. though some lazy asses want to keep popping out kids to get more money on welfare or sit in social security offices all day, a good percent of america is willing to work.

Quoydogs
05-10-2010, 04:55 PM
not exactly, americans want to get paid enough money to live on, and getting paid minimum wage is not enough to live on. though some lazy asses want to keep popping out kids to get more money on welfare or sit in social security offices all day, a good percent of america is willing to work.

Not to get off topic here but I have a solution for that also. If you are on any kind of Government aid then you must get the five year depo shot and be drug tested.

Archer81
05-10-2010, 04:56 PM
I am not entirely sure mass deportation is impossible. Difficult, but not impossible.

Anyway...

I do not believe law breaking should be rewarded with immediate citizenship. Require all illegals residing in the US to register and apply for work visas.

End anchor baby immigration policies...this was done for former slaves. No other country has this type of law. A baby born in the US is American if a) parents are natural-born American citizens or B} American through legal immigration.

Any illegal with a felony is immediately deported. He or she will not be allowed to legally work or live in the US.

Those who are illegal but otherwise clear to be US citizens if they so wish have a choice. Either apply for a visa to work, or apply for citizenship. If they do neither, they go back to the country of origin. If they pick citizenship, they go to the end of the line as far as becoming a citizen, but will be issued work visas and must pay all fines and fees and engage in the process legal citizens must adhere to to become American.

The border will be closed except at already recognized border crossings (SD, El Pasp, Brownsville). Anyone caught crossing the border will be arrested and charged with a felony, disqualifying them from any future attempt at becoming a US citizen.

Business that hire illegals can risk 5 million dollar fines, regardless of the business, and not a single, one time fine. Per illegal employed by that business.

Being that it is illegal in Mexico for noncitizens to demonstrate against the Mexican government, adopting this stance here would be beneficial. Non citizens have no say in the actions of the American people or their government. They want to be heard? Apply for legal citizenship.

Prosectue La Raza like the KKK or NeoNazi groups. Why be specific in which hate groups we watch?

:Broncos:

loborugger
05-10-2010, 04:58 PM
Its pretty f-in simple how you fix. And no politician from either side of the aisle will touch it with a 20 foot pole.

People come here for jobs. Pure and simple. All the solutions that are offered up these days deal with attacking the flow of immigrants. But there is almost no attempt to go after the corporations that hire illegals... and pay them 2 dollars a day with no benefits. And when someone makes a token effort to go after those hiring illegals, its Joe's Law Service, that employs 5 illegals. Meanwhile the major corporations have thousands on their role. But, since they make large donations to both parties, no politician will go after them.

So, get rid of the jobs, and the illegals flowing into the country will dry up. Pretty simple.

watermock
05-10-2010, 05:02 PM
End anchor baby immigration policies...this was done for former slaves. No other country has this type of law. A baby born in the US is American if a) parents are natural-born American citizens or B} American through legal immigration.



That would be a good start.

bowtown
05-10-2010, 05:03 PM
Its pretty f-in simple how you fix. And no politician from either side of the aisle will touch it with a 20 foot pole.

People come here for jobs. Pure and simple. All the solutions that are offered up these days deal with attacking the flow of immigrants. But there is almost no attempt to go after the corporations that hire illegals... and pay them 2 dollars a day with no benefits. And when someone makes a token effort to go after those hiring illegals, its Joe's Law Service, that employs 5 illegals. Meanwhile the major corporations have thousands on their role. But, since they make large donations to both parties, no politician will go after them.

So, get rid of the jobs, and the illegals flowing into the country will dry up. Pretty simple.

And what do we do about the riots in this country when the price of food doubles?

atomicbloke
05-10-2010, 05:04 PM
What exactly is meant by "closing the border"?

The surface earth is a contiguous landmass. How exactly do you close it?

Don't tell me build a fence. Because prospective illegal immigrants aren't going to see a fence, and say .... aww shucks, there's a fence here, lets forget about it and go home....

Post armed troops on the border? Any idea how many soldiers will be needed for the entire length of the border and how much this will cost? And is it guaranteed to be more than 50% effective? Can't have them in 50-mile intervals since it doesn't solve anything. And then what about ship jumpers? You have to close the seas too.

atomicbloke
05-10-2010, 05:05 PM
And what do we do about the riots in this country when the price of food doubles?

Easy. Blame the liberals.

Lev Vyvanse
05-10-2010, 05:06 PM
Its pretty f-in simple how you fix. And no politician from either side of the aisle will touch it with a 20 foot pole.

People come here for jobs. Pure and simple. All the solutions that are offered up these days deal with attacking the flow of immigrants. But there is almost no attempt to go after the corporations that hire illegals... and pay them 2 dollars a day with no benefits. And when someone makes a token effort to go after those hiring illegals, its Joe's Law Service, that employs 5 illegals. Meanwhile the major corporations have thousands on their role. But, since they make large donations to both parties, no politician will go after them.

So, get rid of the jobs, and the illegals flowing into the country will dry up. Pretty simple.

http://js.talkaudiohosting.co.uk/gif/Joker_not_sure_if_serious.jpg

Archer81
05-10-2010, 05:07 PM
And what do we do about the riots in this country when the price of food doubles?


3% of illegals work in agriculture.

Im gonna say people wont riot...


:Broncos:

SonOfLe-loLang
05-10-2010, 05:07 PM
I'd like to see what some of the ideas here are.

Public sentiment and logistical issues prevent some options:

1. Mass Deportation - this is simply impossible given the lack of resources in law enforcement.

2. Open Borders - this is not a solution that Americans will approve, and its not a viable solution for the country. This would lead to a collapse of the infrastructure of border states, and later, the country. Not a solution.


Okay, the plan that I think would work...

1) Close the Borders - construct a fence. Increase law enforcement presence on the border including tunnel-detecting and breech-detecting technology.

2) Establish Naturalization Path - a) require knowledge of American politics, history, the English language, federal laws, and local laws...establish naturalization classes for a cost, b) pay naturalization penalties for breaking the law (its important to reestablish the law as the standard)

3) Enforce Immigration Law - begin fining employers who employ illegal aliens, begin deporting criminals, begin deporting all illegals who do not meet the naturalization standards (immediately deport felons imprisoned or not), and after a grace period that allows families to raise money for naturalization process, begin deporting those who do not follow through with stipulations that the path to naturalization can be continued if money is raised in Mexico.

etc.

Anyway, that's my take on some of the issues. What's your idea?


I think ignorance to politics is about as American as it gets. :)

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-10-2010, 05:08 PM
Oy. You guys do realize there's a political forum, correct?

Archer81
05-10-2010, 05:09 PM
Oy. You guys do realize there's a political forum, correct?


For reals?


:Broncos:

atomicbloke
05-10-2010, 05:09 PM
For the record, no country in the world has been able to solve the illegal immigration problem.

Also, illegal immigration is not a problem afflicting first world countries. Even third world countries have illegal immigrants from poorer third world countries.

So if you can find a viable serious solution, a lot of folks will want to hear from you.

Borks147
05-10-2010, 05:11 PM
I think ignorance to politics is about as American as it gets. :)

haha yup - naturalized citizens know more about the bill of rights than most Americans born here.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-10-2010, 05:13 PM
For reals?


:Broncos:

Swear to god. But maybe there shouldn't be since folks apparently don't know how to post stuff there, and since the mods are evidently not interested in moving stuff there.

/shrug

Oh well.

As for the solutions, some of these are actually doable and palatable, even to me, a middle-of-the-road progressive. I have zero problem working with people who want to be here and want to be citizens.

And for the record, you're not "rewarding them" for breaking the law. The path to citizenship is effing HARD. It's long, and not fun. I'm guessing the lazy folks who are unwilling to go through the entire process will give up and take off.

Popps
05-10-2010, 05:14 PM
Or, Mexicans could build up a real infrastructure of businesses, products, services and jobs for their own people.

Crazy thought, I know.

How is it that Canadians were able to build out a viable, functioning economy and Mexico couldn't?

atomicbloke
05-10-2010, 05:17 PM
Or, Mexicans could build up a real infrastructure of businesses, products, services and jobs for their own people.

Crazy thought, I know.

How is it that Canadians were able to build out a viable, functioning economy and Mexico couldn't?

What is your opinion on Americans living illegally in other countries?

Pseudofool
05-10-2010, 05:26 PM
You take away the demand for illegal labor. Enforce harsh penalties on businesses that break the law by hiring illegal labor. The only way you can stop it is to take away the demand. They will find a way to get past whatever layers of bureaucracy or fences we put up in their way.

Everyone else: Don't b**** when the prices at restaurants, hotels, fresh produce, and any thing else that is dependent on illegal labor to make it cheap go way up so that you can't afford them anymore.

Borks147
05-10-2010, 05:31 PM
How is it that Canadians were able to build out a viable, functioning economy and Mexico couldn't?

Mexico had a larger and better trained army than the US in the early 1800s - a series of ****ty leaders led to the loss of half its territory and then another set of ****ty leaders led to the squandering of its remaining natural resources by foreign interests and then another set of ****ty leaders tried to fix a ****ty situation half-assedly. That brings us to the current day :)

Pseudofool
05-10-2010, 05:32 PM
Or, Mexicans could build up a real infrastructure of businesses, products, services and jobs for their own people.
I don't get the glibness here. Obviously, if Mexico got it's **** together there'd be no problem. But unless you know a genie, this wish is going to get unfulfilled.


How is it that Canadians were able to build out a viable, functioning economy and Mexico couldn't?See if you can answer this question without 1) resorting to sour stereotype or 2) taking into account the very different historical circumstance that led to each's independence and eventual nationhood.

Borks147
05-10-2010, 05:36 PM
How is it that Canadians were able to build out a viable, functioning economy and Mexico couldn't?

Also, Mexico does have the 14th largest economy in the world, it's just massively, massively unevenly distributed among its people.

Look it up - there is a viable, functioning economy, it's just uneven.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29

epicSocialism4tw
05-10-2010, 05:39 PM
Mexico had a larger and better trained army than the US in the early 1800s - a series of ****ty leaders led to the loss of half its territory and then another set of ****ty leaders led to the squandering of its remaining natural resources by foreign interests and then another set of ****ty leaders tried to fix a ****ty situation half-assedly. That brings us to the current day :)

So while the United States developed infrastructure, Mexico developed a tourism industry and nothing else. Arrested development.

Dedhed
05-10-2010, 05:40 PM
I love that the people who are opposed to big govt spending are the ones in favor of the "Build a wall and police the borders" idea when that would cost billions of dollars and be completely futile.

It's really not that difficult.

Shut off the jobs for illegals by putting the fear of God into employers who take advantage of them.

Borks147
05-10-2010, 05:40 PM
So while the United States developed infrastructure, Mexico developed a tourism industry and nothing else. Arrested development.

Well, tourism and oil, be fair

epicSocialism4tw
05-10-2010, 05:42 PM
Shut off the jobs for illegals by putting the fear of God into employers who take advantage of them.

I dont disagree with that, but I dont think that its a viable solution. It wouldnt get passed.

Dedhed
05-10-2010, 05:42 PM
Well, tourism and oil, be fair

Pay attention to that word.

Dedhed
05-10-2010, 05:43 PM
I dont disagree with that, but I dont think that its a viable solution. It wouldnt get passed.
Of course it won't. It wouldn't even pass in Arizona.

Lev Vyvanse
05-10-2010, 05:43 PM
Shut off the jobs for illegals by putting the fear of God into employers who take advantage of them.

It's funny people think this is a viable option.

epicSocialism4tw
05-10-2010, 05:44 PM
Well, tourism and oil, be fair

That's true. If the US wouldnt have undergone the industrial revolution, Mexico would still be dominated by the same money-mongering elitists, but they just wouldnt be as rich.

elsid13
05-10-2010, 05:45 PM
It is economic problem. So solve it that way.

First establish a paid worker visa program. Mexican citizen would have to pay an annual "fee" to work in the United States. If they fail to do so or commit a crime then the visa is pulled and they and their families are deported. They would have to register and get card that need to be checked on regular basis This remove the human smugglers from the game and help focus the border patrol on those committing illegal acts.

Second charge the companies that employ them a tax to have them in country to perform the work. This would discourage employment and increase revenue to pay for public services they use.

Finally tax them at higher rate then American Citizens, no company could pay them cash it all had to be pay them via electric transfer. If a company did pay them in cash, and was caught then all property was forfeit and would be sold off to pay for government services.

Dedhed
05-10-2010, 05:48 PM
It's funny people think this is a viable option.

I don't think it's a viable option, but it does point to where the problem actually is. It isn't with the Mexicans who are looking for a better existence for their families.

atomicbloke
05-10-2010, 05:49 PM
It is economic problem. So solve it that way.

First establish a paid worker visa program. Mexican citizen would have to pay an annual "fee" to work in the United States. If they fail to do so or commit a crime then the visa is pulled and they and their families are deported. They would have to register and get card that need to be checked on regular basis This remove the human smugglers from the game and help focus the border patrol on those committing illegal acts.

Second charge the companies that employ them a tax to have them in country to perform the work. This would discourage employment and increase revenue to pay for public services they use.

Finally tax them at higher rate then American Citizens, no company could pay them cash it all had to be pay them via electric transfer. If a company did pay them in cash, and was caught then all property was forfeit and would be sold off to pay for government services.

They would still come illegally and employers would bypass the taxes and hire them illegally for 50 cents an hour.

So while your idea makes sense, enforcing it isn't realistic.

loborugger
05-10-2010, 05:49 PM
And what do we do about the riots in this country when the price of food doubles?

I am pretty sure there are legals immigrants here, too.

Lev Vyvanse
05-10-2010, 05:50 PM
I don't think it's a viable option, but it does point to where the problem actually is. It isn't with the Mexicans who are looking for a better existence for their families.

Agreed.

Dukes
05-10-2010, 06:11 PM
Good to know there's people who choose the "do nothing" option because it's just too much work and won't ever work.

Lev Vyvanse
05-10-2010, 06:28 PM
I am pretty sure there are legals immigrants here, too.

I wonder why people would employ illegals with all the legal immigrants willing to work for peanuts. Seems kind of weird.

elsid13
05-10-2010, 07:03 PM
They would still come illegally and employers would bypass the taxes and hire them illegally for 50 cents an hour.

So while your idea makes sense, enforcing it isn't realistic.

We never going to have 100% solution. If my idea give us a 60% that allows us to redeploy our 100% of enforce resources to address that 40% of the problem.

watermock
05-10-2010, 07:08 PM
I got a solution.

If they want be citizens, send them off to war.

chadta
05-10-2010, 07:14 PM
I got a solution.

If they want be citizens, send them off to war.

hell to the NO

i love our soldiers, and i dont want any of them put at risk by being with people who dont really want to or know how to do the job at hand.

atomicbloke
05-10-2010, 07:21 PM
I got a solution.

If they want be citizens, send them off to war.

You are a genius.

Popps
05-10-2010, 07:28 PM
What is your opinion on Americans living illegally in other countries?

Wouldn't support it.

But, Americans have little desire to live elsewhere.

Why? There's been at least an attempt at a proper functioning economic system put in place here that offers its people opportunity.

Can you blame people without food for coming over the border? I don't. I would, too.

Doesn't make it right, though... and the only true solution is to eliminate the need to do so. That starts at home. But, the Mexican government has never had an interest in any such thing, and the country is poverty-stricken and over-populated because of it.

elsid13
05-10-2010, 07:30 PM
hell to the NO

i love our soldiers, and i dont want any of them put at risk by being with people who dont really want to or know how to do the job at hand.

You do realize that there currently a legal program that allows foreigners to serve in the US armed forces, complete their tour and become US citizens.

watermock
05-10-2010, 07:30 PM
You are a genius.

The Tuskeegee Airmen were allready citizens.

Popps
05-10-2010, 07:31 PM
Also, Mexico does have the 14th largest economy in the world, it's just massively, massively unevenly distributed among its people.

Look it up - there is a viable, functioning economy, it's just uneven.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29

I don't even need to look it up. I believe it. I know they control a huge portion of the world's petroleum resources. That alone should keep their people in clean undershorts.

Hmmm... uneven distribution of resources... sounds like every 3rd world country in the world, and just about every country in the middle east.

Don't ask me how to fix it, but until your average 20 year old Mexican has the same chance at employment in his country as he does here... the urge is going to remain to break the border.

Rohirrim
05-10-2010, 07:34 PM
First, you have to get rid of our bought-and-paid-for government, because they will never do anything about it. Ever.

OABB
05-10-2010, 07:35 PM
Vote republican. They will destroy this country again and mexicans won't want to come here anymore. It was working for a while.

atomicbloke
05-10-2010, 07:35 PM
Wouldn't support it.

But, Americans have little desire to live elsewhere.

Why? There's been at least an attempt at a proper functioning economic system put in place here that offers its people opportunity.

Can you blame people without food for coming over the border? I don't. I would, too.

Doesn't make it right, though... and the only true solution is to eliminate the need to do so. That starts at home. But, the Mexican government has never had an interest in any such thing, and the country is poverty-stricken and over-populated because of it.

The point I am trying to make is that America supposedly has its act together. At least more than Mexico. Yet scores of Americans live illegally in other countries.

Hence, your point that if Mexico got their act together, it would somehow solve illegal immigration is flawed.

Rohirrim
05-10-2010, 07:38 PM
Or, we could just force them to sit in a chair opposite a Yugoslavian performance artist.

Popps
05-10-2010, 07:41 PM
The point I am trying to make is that America supposedly has its act together. At least more than Mexico. Yet scores of Americans live illegally in other countries.

Hence, your point that if Mexico got their act together, it would somehow solve illegal immigration is flawed.

It's not flawed.

I live in California. I have for 20 years. I live around and have worked with Mexicans for those two decades. Many of them (back in my restaurant days) I suspect were here illegally. Half of the guys coming with contractors to work on my studio build-out... I have no idea if they're legal. Some can't speak ANY English.

You're telling me those guys would rather be ****ing around in Burbank than living with their family and friends in their own country?

You're telling me they'd RATHER live here as a somewhat polarized minority than in the comforts of their own country?

You need your head checked, dude. They're coming here because they need to send money back to their families. It's a financial decision. They're not here because of the beaches.

Don't compare a few ex-pats living over seas ****ing around in Prague somewhere to MILLIONS of desperate Mexicans flooding the California border looking for work.

Honestly, no one could be so stupid as to really believe the argument you're
proffering. I'm going to let you rethink the whole thing and try again.

If Mexico's economy was as stable and fruitful for the average citizen as America's... we wouldn't be having this discussion. Hear anyone talking about an epidemic of illegal Canadian immigrants?

Gtfo.

atomicbloke
05-10-2010, 07:48 PM
It's not flawed.

I live in California. I have for 20 years. I live around and have worked with Mexicans for those two decades. Many of them (back in my restaurant days) I suspect were here illegally. Half of the guys coming with contractors to work on my studio build-out... I have no idea if they're legal. Some can't speak ANY English.

You're telling me those guys would rather be ****ing around in Burbank than living with their family and friends in their own country?

You're telling me they'd RATHER live here as a somewhat polarized minority than in the comforts of their own country?

You need your head checked, dude. They're coming here because they need to send money back to their families. It's a financial decision. They're not here because of the beaches.

Don't compare a few ex-pats living over seas ****ing around in Prague somewhere to MILLIONS of desperate Mexicans flooding the California border looking for work.

Honestly, no one could be so stupid as to really believe the argument you're
proffering. I'm going to let you rethink the whole thing and try again.

If Mexico's economy was as stable and fruitful for the average citizen as America's... we wouldn't be having this discussion. Hear anyone talking about an epidemic of illegal Canadian immigrants?

Gtfo.

There are lots of illegal Canadian immigrants. No one makes a fuss about them because they don't stand out.

I am not talking about American expats living a corporate life. I am talking about Americans living illegally in Europe, Singapore, Brazil, even India. I have lived legally in 10 different countries. And not the everything catered for corporate expat kind of living. I am saying the getting a job, setting up a business, renting an apartment, speaking the local lingo kind of living. And I have run in to scores of Americans and citizens of many other countries who live abroad illegally.

While you are right that economic reasons are a major factor for illegal immigration worldwide, it is not the only factor.

I'll take your suggestion and get my head checked. Meanwhile you can also try broadening your perspective a little bit.

Thanks.

iforgotmypassword
05-10-2010, 08:18 PM
A semi massive fence would help the problem, surely it wouldn't solve it but it woudl help.

I say you guard the border like crazy with tons of troops etc. for 1 year. Announce that from now until one year all illegal immigrants can be awarded citizenship if they provide knowledge of our laws, a clear criminal record, know or are enrolled in classes to learn the english language, and proof of a job. This gives you the decent MAJORITY of illegals becoming legal, kicks out the MINORITY of bad ones, and give you most importantly, a list of companies who have been hiring Illegals, you give them their one time pass/warning and check in with them from time to time. After this year you provide a way for Mexicans to legally become Americans, Work visa's learning our language and laws etc. Just random thinking here.

watermock
05-10-2010, 08:57 PM
[Yet scores of Americans live illegally in other countries.



Scores and scores?

Idiot.

Overstaying the visa?

STFU!

strafen
05-10-2010, 09:08 PM
Illegal aliens are just not mexicans.
There are a lot of people here from China, Russia living illegally in the USA and some of them against their own will.
The traffic of humans from Europe to America is a world most of us don't know much about.

It's not about racism, it's about laying down the law and apply the laws that already exist.

https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=2b5ecb41df&view=att&th=12870cc699654f47&attid=0.2&disp=emb&realattid=0.2&zw



I don't know how everybody else feels about it, but to me I
think Hispanic people in this country, legally or illegally,
made a huge public relations mistake with their recent demonstrations.

I don't blame anybody in the world for wanting to come to the
United States of America, as it is a truly wonderful place.

But when the first thing you do when you set foot on American soil is illegal it is flat out wrong and I don't care how many lala land left heads come out of the woodwork and start trying
to give me sensitivity lessons.

I don't need sensitivity lessons, in fact I don't have any-thing against Mexicans! I just have something against criminals and anybody who comes into this country illegally is a criminal
and if you don't believe it try coming into America from a foreign country without a passport and see how far you get. What disturbs me about the demonstrations is that it's tanta-mount to saying, "I am going to come into your country even if it means breaking your laws and there's nothing you can do about it."

It's an "in your face" action and speaking just for me, I don't like it one little bit and if there were a half dozen pairs of gonads in Washington bigger than English peas it wouldn't be happening.

Where are you, you bunch of lily livered, pantywaist, forked tongued, sorry excuses for defenders of The Constitution? Have you been drinking the water out of the Potomac again?
And even if you pass a bill on immigration it will probably be so pork laden and watered down that it won't mean anything anyway Besides, what good is another law going to do when you
won't enforce the ones on the books now?

And what ever happened to the polls, guys? I thought you folks were the quintessential finger wetters. Well you sure ain't paying any attention to the polls this time because somewhere around eighty percent of Americans want some thing done about this mess, and mess it is and getting bigger everyday.

This is no longer a problem, it is a dilemma and headed for being a tragedy. Do you honestly think that what happened in France with the Muslims can't happen here when the businesses who hire these people finally run out of jobs and a few million disillusioned Hispanics take to the streets?

If you, Mr. President, Congressmen and Senators, knuckle under on this and refuse to do something meaningful it means that you care nothing for the kind of country your children and grand-children will inherit. But I guess that doesn't matter as long as you get re-elected.
Shame on you.
One of the big problems in America today is that if you have the nerve to say anything derogatory about any group of people (except Christians) you are going to be screamed at by the media and called a racist, a bigot and anything else they can think of to call you

Well I've been pounded by the media before and I'm still rockin' and rollin' and when it comes to speaking the truth I fear not.
And the truth is that the gutless, gonadless, milksop politicians are just about to sell out the United States of America because they don't have the intestinal fortitude to stand up to face reality.

And reality is that we would never allow any other group of people to have 12 million illegal in this country and turn around and say, "Oh it's ok, ya'll can stay here if you'll just allow us to slap your wrist."

And I know that some of you who read this column are saying "Well what's wrong with that?"
I'll tell you what's wrong with it. These people could be from Mars as far as we know. We don't know who they are, where they are or what they're up to and the way the Congress is going we're not going to.

Does this make sense? Labor force you say? We already subsidize corporate agriculture as it is, must we subsidize their labor as well?
If these people were from Haiti would we be so fast to turn a blind eye to them or if they were from Somalia or Afghanistan ?
I think not.

All the media shows us are pictures of hard working Hispanics who have crossed the border just to try to better their life.
They don't show you pictures of the Feds rounding up members of MS 13, the violent gang who came across the same way the decent folks did. They don't tell you about the living conditions of the Mexican illegal some fat cat hired to pick his crop.

I want to make two predictions.

No. 1: This situation is going to grow and fester until it erupts in violence on our streets while the wimps in Washington drag their toes in the dirt and try to figure how many tons of political hay they can make to the acre.

No 2: Somebody is going to cross that border with some kind of weapon of mass destruction and set it off in a major American city after which there will be a backlash such as this country has never experienced and the Capitol building in Washington will probably tilt as Congressmen and Senators rush to the other side of the issue.

I don't know about you but I would love to see just one major politician stand up and say, "I don't care who I make mad and I don't care how many votes I lose, this is a desperate situation and I'm going to lead the fight to get it straightened out."
I don't blame anybody for wanting to come to America , but if you don't respect our immigration laws why should you respect any others?
And by the way, this is America and our flag has stars and stripes Please get that other one out of my face.

God Bless America

Charlie Daniels

epicSocialism4tw
05-10-2010, 10:47 PM
There are lots of illegal Canadian immigrants. No one makes a fuss about them because they don't stand out.

I am not talking about American expats living a corporate life. I am talking about Americans living illegally in Europe, Singapore, Brazil, even India. I have lived legally in 10 different countries. And not the everything catered for corporate expat kind of living. I am saying the getting a job, setting up a business, renting an apartment, speaking the local lingo kind of living. And I have run in to scores of Americans and citizens of many other countries who live abroad illegally.

While you are right that economic reasons are a major factor for illegal immigration worldwide, it is not the only factor.

I'll take your suggestion and get my head checked. Meanwhile you can also try broadening your perspective a little bit.

Thanks.

There is no excuse for American expatriates living abroad illegally, just as there's no excuse for illegal immigrants to this country. Two wrongs dont make a right.

atomicbloke
05-10-2010, 11:08 PM
There is no excuse for American expatriates living abroad illegally, just as there's no excuse for illegal immigrants to this country. Two wrongs dont make a right.

And I never claimed either was right.

Was just making a point that while economic reasons are a major factor for illegal immigration, they are not the only ones.

Popps
05-11-2010, 12:11 AM
And I never claimed either was right.

Was just making a point that while economic reasons are a major factor for illegal immigration, they are not the only ones.

Uh huh... so economic reasons only account for about 99% of the Mexicans here.

What the hell kind of point are you making?


It's not always cold in Alaska. But, Alaska is cold. It's primarily cold. It's almost always cold.

Yea, but... it's not ALWAYS cold.

Who cares? That's a useless point.

Popps
05-11-2010, 12:13 AM
There is no excuse for American expatriates living abroad illegally, just as there's no excuse for illegal immigrants to this country. Two wrongs dont make a right.

His point isn't even that concise.

He's just saying that there IS some exception to a rule.

It's an obtuse, useless point that I'm done addressing.


It's obvious to any thinking person why we have an immigration problem. It'll end when their country offers as much opportunity as ours does.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-11-2010, 12:15 AM
I'd like to see what some of the ideas here are.

Public sentiment and logistical issues prevent some options:

1. Mass Deportation - this is simply impossible given the lack of resources in law enforcement.

2. Open Borders - this is not a solution that Americans will approve, and its not a viable solution for the country. This would lead to a collapse of the infrastructure of border states, and later, the country. Not a solution.


Okay, the plan that I think would work...

1) Close the Borders - construct a fence. Increase law enforcement presence on the border including tunnel-detecting and breech-detecting technology.

2) Establish Naturalization Path - a) require knowledge of American politics, history, the English language, federal laws, and local laws...establish naturalization classes for a cost, b) pay naturalization penalties for breaking the law (its important to reestablish the law as the standard)

3) Enforce Immigration Law - begin fining employers who employ illegal aliens, begin deporting criminals, begin deporting all illegals who do not meet the naturalization standards (immediately deport felons imprisoned or not), and after a grace period that allows families to raise money for naturalization process, begin deporting those who do not follow through with stipulations that the path to naturalization can be continued if money is raised in Mexico.

etc.

Anyway, that's my take on some of the issues. What's your idea?

I'll take the mass deportation and the enforcement of immigration laws - but only in conjunction with a full-on war on businesses who hire illegals.

ZONA
05-11-2010, 02:47 AM
The only solution that would ever work is that we take over Mexico. Their government can't do anything right and suck at running a country. We should just buy it and make it a state.

watermock
05-11-2010, 04:33 AM
Ha!

Zero chance.

They think they own the US by default, why pay?

TailgateNut
05-11-2010, 07:52 AM
Swear to god. But maybe there shouldn't be since folks apparently don't know how to post stuff there, and since the mods are evidently not interested in moving stuff there.

/shrug

Oh well.

As for the solutions, some of these are actually doable and palatable, even to me, a middle-of-the-road progressive. I have zero problem working with people who want to be here and want to be citizens.

And for the record, you're not "rewarding them" for breaking the law. The path to citizenship is effing HARD. It's long, and not fun. I'm guessing the lazy folks who are unwilling to go through the entire process will give up and take off.

No, those will do what they originally did. Cheat the system and break the laws.

Steve Sewell
05-11-2010, 08:08 AM
Solution:

1) Tighten border security.

2) Provide amnesty to all current illegal immigrants provided they apply for citizenship.

3) SEVERELY penalize businesses that hire illegal immigrants. Meat packing plants, for example. They are heavily regulated businesses...yet they are able to get away with hiring ****-loads of illegal immigrants. How is that even possible unless the government is simply looking the other way?

4) Arrest and deport anyone working in the US illegally.

5) Remove the opportunity for illegal immigrants to acquire government funded services in this country. Completely ridiculous that some of my tax money goes to stuff like this.

Dukes
05-11-2010, 08:13 AM
So what will it take for the Government to actually do something about it?

Rohirrim
05-11-2010, 08:18 AM
So what will it take for the Government to actually do something about it?

Last poll I saw on the subject, something like 80% of the American people wanted the illegal border traffic sealed. So far, our representative government hasn't done squat. Since this demand has been made by the American people a dozen times over the last thirty years and the government still refuses to do anything about it, I would pretty much forget about that. Those who pay them not to do anything about it are walking up and down the halls of Congress handing out checks. Their constitituents are sending them emails. :rofl:

Dukes
05-11-2010, 08:26 AM
Last poll I saw on the subject, something like 80% of the American people wanted the illegal border traffic sealed. So far, our representative government hasn't done squat. Since this demand has been made by the American people a dozen times over the last thirty years and the government still refuses to do anything about it, I would pretty much forget about that. Those who pay them not to do anything about it are walking up and down the halls of Congress handing out checks. Their constitituents are sending them emails. :rofl:

I just have a feeling something severe will happen that will force them to do something.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-11-2010, 08:39 AM
I don't blame anybody for wanting to come to America , but if you don't respect our immigration laws why should you respect any others?
And by the way, this is America and our flag has stars and stripes Please get that other one out of my face.

God Bless America

Charlie Daniels




That's awesome! :thumbsup:

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-11-2010, 08:42 AM
Last poll I saw on the subject, something like 80% of the American people wanted the illegal border traffic sealed. So far, our representative government hasn't done squat. Since this demand has been made by the American people a dozen times over the last thirty years and the government still refuses to do anything about it, I would pretty much forget about that. Those who pay them not to do anything about it are walking up and down the halls of Congress handing out checks. Their constitituents are sending them emails. :rofl:

Yep.

Who stands to gain the most from allowing illegals into the country?

A: Cheap labor conservatives.

The government needs to declare war on every business in this country that hires illegals.

Steve Sewell
05-11-2010, 08:51 AM
I find it ironic that, right now, I'm on the phone with the IRS trying to get an identity theft issue solved.

My social security number is being used for employment at several restaurant companies at different locations around the country, and the IRS is trying to get me to pay the taxes. This has been going on since 2004, every year...just a massive pain in the ass.

bowtown
05-11-2010, 08:54 AM
I find it ironic that, right now, I'm on the phone with the IRS trying to get an identity theft issue solved.

My social security number is being used for employment at several restaurant companies at different locations around the country, and the IRS is trying to get me to pay the taxes. This has been going on since 2004, every year...just a massive pain in the ass.

Likely story... can we see your papers please?

TailgateNut
05-11-2010, 09:02 AM
I find it ironic that, right now, I'm on the phone with the IRS trying to get an identity theft issue solved.

My social security number is being used for employment at several restaurant companies at different locations around the country, and the IRS is trying to get me to pay the taxes. This has been going on since 2004, every year...just a massive pain in the ass.


These are the same people who you want to reward with amnesty for breaking our laws and butt****ing you into dealing with identity theft issues.

I had to deal with a similar situation last year when 4 different people had used my information to gain credit and obtain loans in 3 different states.
Real pain in the ass. BTW 3 of those four were "hispanic names".

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-11-2010, 09:03 AM
No, those will do what they originally did. Cheat the system and break the laws.

Aren't they going to be able to do that anyway?

So, what's the point in discussing it?

You have to start somewhere, TGN.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-11-2010, 09:04 AM
These are the same people who you want to reward with amnesty for breaking our laws and butt****ing you into dealing with identity theft issues.

I had to deal with a similar situation last year when 4 different people had used my information to gain credit and obtain loans in 3 different states.
Real pain in the ass. BTW 3 of those four were "hispanic names".

Sounds like your fault, honestly. If you're smart with your information, you don't have to worry about identity theft. I protect mine like a child.

Whether or not they're "hispanic" makes zero difference, and honestly mentioning it makes you sound like a bigot.

It's entirely possible that those "hispanics" were legal citizens.

Beantown Bronco
05-11-2010, 09:06 AM
If you're smart with your information, you don't have to worry about identity theft. I protect mine like a child.

That's simply not true.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-11-2010, 09:13 AM
That's simply not true.

No, it is true. If you're incredibly careful with your identity, any and all paperwork, and watch your credit score for any red flags, you don't need to "worry." Sorry, but getting your info stolen 4 times? SOMEbody isn't doing a very good job with their own affairs.

It's also true that I protect mine like a child.

Mountain Bronco
05-11-2010, 09:15 AM
I love that the people who are opposed to big govt spending are the ones in favor of the "Build a wall and police the borders" idea when that would cost billions of dollars and be completely futile.

It's really not that difficult.

Shut off the jobs for illegals by putting the fear of God into employers who take advantage of them.

That only costs you and I the consumer more. Fines and double wages result in higher prices for goods and services. The only problem I see with illegals is the suck on public benefits. Don't change anything except to eliminate the receipt of public benefits by illegals? What are the unintended consequences of that?

WIldbill
05-11-2010, 09:17 AM
I have not read this whole tread so I apologize if this has already been posted. I believe this issue is very 'fixable' and can be solved relatively easy if we put our mind to it.

First: We need to acknowledge that there is a need for the labor currently being provided by the illegal immigrants. Our current quota for legal immigration ranges between 700,000 and 900,000 a year (http://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/immigration-us.html) I think it’s obvious that there is a demand for labor services that exceeds the supply offered by legal routes. This has created a black market of sorts for labor which has fed the influx of illegal immigrants. Lets increase the quota and streamline the process for coming here legally.

Second: We need to remove the employment 'carrot' that brings people here illegally. Provide a highly accurate system for verifying legal immigration status. From what I have heard, the current system is not very accurate. We need to crack down on anyone who hires a person who is here illegally. The laws are already in place for this so no additional law is necessary.

Third: We need to remove the entitlement ‘carrot’ that brings people here illegally. We need to stop providing healthcare, education, housing etc to anyone who is not in this country legally. This will be the most difficult part of the solution for our country and will be met with a ton of resistance. Any proposal to do such will be met with cries of racism, hatemongering etc. It will be hard but I believe essential.

Fourth: Secure the border. I think that if the first 3 things are implemented successfully then building a huge fence will become less critical. However it is critical to take additional measures to reduce the flow of drugs into our country as well as reduce the risk of a terrorist or other undesirable entering our country.

I think that if we did these 4 things our illegal immigration problem would go away. We would not need to perform mass deportations as those here illegally would not be able to work and would not be able to receive any free handouts and would head home. Secondly it would solve the labor concerns while giving more opportunity for disadvantaged people from all countries the opportunity to participate in the opportunity the US affords. The Government would have us believe this is some huge complicated issue that will take people with much bigger brains than we have to solve. I disagree with this. I don’t think it will take ‘bigger brains’ but rather the courage to take solve the problem. Any official that solves this problem will take a lot of heat. We as the silent majority need to make sure we back and support those who tackle this problem the right way.

Thoughts?

bowtown
05-11-2010, 09:18 AM
No, it is true. If you're incredibly careful with your identity, any and all paperwork, and watch your credit score for any red flags, you don't need to "worry." Sorry, but getting your info stolen 4 times? SOMEbody isn't doing a very good job with their own affairs.

It's also true that I protect mine like a child.

I highly doubt his identity was stolen 4 times. It only takes once, and then it can be sold over and over again.

A stolen identity is no one's fault except the person who steals it. There are precautions you can take, but you can never totally guard yourself against it, unless you move to a cabin and live entirely off the grid.

Beantown Bronco
05-11-2010, 09:20 AM
No, it is true. If you're incredibly careful with your identity, any and all paperwork, and watch your credit score for any red flags, you don't need to "worry." Sorry, but getting your info stolen 4 times? SOMEbody isn't doing a very good job with their own affairs.

TJX customers did all of the above and it didn't stop people from stealing their info.

Watching your credit score for "red flags"? Yup. While good advice, it doesn't stop the problem from happening. All it does is alert you to the fact that your info was stolen already. It's like the police showing up after a crime has taken place. They didn't prevent the crime. They just investigate what already happened.

See the difference?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-11-2010, 09:23 AM
TJX customers did all of the above and it didn't stop people from stealing their info.

Watching your credit score for "red flags"? Yup. While good advice, it doesn't stop the problem from happening. All it does is alert you to the fact that your info was stolen already. It's like the police showing up after a crime has taken place. They didn't prevent the crime. They just investigate what already happened.

See the difference?

Sure, and that's fair. However, it sounds to me like he doesn't have any of the safeguards in place, and now uses it as a convenient excuse to blame it on "them there mexeecans."

I had an issue a few years ago. Because of my vigilance, I was able to get it taken care of almost immediately and I haven't had a problem since.

TailgateNut
05-11-2010, 09:39 AM
Sounds like your fault, honestly. If you're smart with your information, you don't have to worry about identity theft. I protect mine like a child.

Whether or not they're "hispanic" makes zero difference, and honestly mentioning it makes you sound like a bigot.

It's entirely possible that those "hispanics" were legal citizens.

I am smart with my personal info and in fact have an identity monitoring service which caught the use before it got out of hand. It did however make it onto my credit reports.

Re: the hispanic names. Yep, it's entirely possible but highly unlikely that a legal citizen was using false information. Get your head out into the light.

FYI: I do care what I sound like. I hate the ****ing disease of illegal immigration an it's effect on our society as a whole. I'm all for shooting them as they invade outr country. A bullet is cheaper than the costs of subsidizing their existance in our country. If they feel like they have the right to invade our country (breaking the law) and feel it's ok to steal the identities of legal citizens (breaking the law) to obtain work on false pretenses/info (breaking the law) and then obtain taxpayer funded services fraudulently (breaking the law), I, in turn, think we have the right to defend ourselves and our country with whatever force required to stop these lawless people.

Rohirrim
05-11-2010, 09:40 AM
I have not read this whole tread so I apologize if this has already been posted. I believe this issue is very 'fixable' and can be solved relatively easy if we put our mind to it.

First: We need to acknowledge that there is a need for the labor currently being provided by the illegal immigrants. Our current quota for legal immigration ranges between 700,000 and 900,000 a year (http://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/immigration-us.html) I think it’s obvious that there is a demand for labor services that exceeds the supply offered by legal routes. This has created a black market of sorts for labor which has fed the influx of illegal immigrants. Lets increase the quota and streamline the process for coming here legally.

Second: We need to remove the employment 'carrot' that brings people here illegally. Provide a highly accurate system for verifying legal immigration status. From what I have heard, the current system is not very accurate. We need to crack down on anyone who hires a person who is here illegally. The laws are already in place for this so no additional law is necessary.

Third: We need to remove the entitlement ‘carrot’ that brings people here illegally. We need to stop providing healthcare, education, housing etc to anyone who is not in this country legally. This will be the most difficult part of the solution for our country and will be met with a ton of resistance. Any proposal to do such will be met with cries of racism, hatemongering etc. It will be hard but I believe essential.

Fourth: Secure the border. I think that if the first 3 things are implemented successfully then building a huge fence will become less critical. However it is critical to take additional measures to reduce the flow of drugs into our country as well as reduce the risk of a terrorist or other undesirable entering our country.

I think that if we did these 4 things our illegal immigration problem would go away. We would not need to perform mass deportations as those here illegally would not be able to work and would not be able to receive any free handouts and would head home. Secondly it would solve the labor concerns while giving more opportunity for disadvantaged people from all countries the opportunity to participate in the opportunity the US affords. The Government would have us believe this is some huge complicated issue that will take people with much bigger brains than we have to solve. I disagree with this. I don’t think it will take ‘bigger brains’ but rather the courage to take solve the problem. Any official that solves this problem will take a lot of heat. We as the silent majority need to make sure we back and support those who tackle this problem the right way.

Thoughts?

This was already done in 1986. http://www.answers.com/topic/immigration-reform-and-control-act-of-1986

The employer verification system was never funded and employers simply set up sub-contractors to hire all their illegal aliens for them, thereby skirting the law.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-11-2010, 09:46 AM
I am smart with my personal info and in fact have an identity monitoring service which caught the use before it got out of hand. It did however make it onto my credit reports.

Re: the hispanic names. Yep, it's entirely possible but highly unlikely that a legal citizen was using false information. Get your head out into the light.

FYI: I do care what I sound like. I hate the ****ing disease of illegal immigration an it's effect on our society as a whole. I'm all for shooting them as they invade outr country. A bullet is cheaper than the costs of subsidizing their existance in our country. If they feel like they have the right to invade our country (breaking the law) and feel it's ok to steal the identities of legal citizens (breaking the law) to obtain work on false pretenses/info (breaking the law) and then obtain taxpayer funded services fraudulently (breaking the law), I, in turn, think we have the right to defend ourselves and our country with whatever force required to stop these lawless people.

Why is it highly unlikely? Happens every day. A criminal is a criminal, and it has zero to do with someone's citizenship.

Perhaps you should get YOUR head out.

You're out of control. Absolutely militant and absurd. Good job.

TailgateNut
05-11-2010, 09:48 AM
No, it is true. If you're incredibly careful with your identity, any and all paperwork, and watch your credit score for any red flags, you don't need to "worry." Sorry, but getting your info stolen 4 times? SOMEbody isn't doing a very good job with their own affairs.

It's also true that I protect mine like a child.

No fuqwahd. It was a case of finacial institutions not doing their job. One was a satelite TV provider who had an account set up with my SSN (anyone can get a fake number (just pick 9 random numbers) and the name and other info did not match, another CU had issued a loan with my name/ address (public record, and considering the amount of business cards I've handed out over the decades I'm not surprised it has been misused) as the cosigner on the loan. Once again someone didn't check references and info (bank issue).
None of the four had all of the info one would think is required to obtain credit and services.

So, just keep insinuating "****" and talking out of your ass.

If it looks like an ass, and sounds like an ass, most likely, it IS an ASS!

TailgateNut
05-11-2010, 09:51 AM
Why is it highly unlikely? Happens every day. A criminal is a criminal, and it has zero to do with someone's citizenship.

Perhaps you should get YOUR head out.

You're out of control. Absolutely militant and absurd. Good job.

I'm "out of control"???

No! Illegal immigration and the "who gives a ****" attitude is OUT OF CONTROL.

Militant??? Just about to that point!

Absurd??? Your "head in the sand" attitude regarding illegal immigration is what's absurd!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-11-2010, 09:58 AM
I'm "out of control"???

No! Illegal immigration and the "who gives a ****" attitude is OUT OF CONTROL.

Militant??? Just about to that point!

Absurd??? Your "head in the sand" attitude regarding illegal immigration is what's absurd!

If you actually bothered to read other peoples' posts between your own rants, you'd know that my head is not in the sand, and that I hardly have a "who gives a ****" attitude. But whatever you need to tell yourself to justify your bigotry...

Also: Calm the **** down. All that anger can't be good for someone.

WIldbill
05-11-2010, 10:01 AM
This was already done in 1986. http://www.answers.com/topic/immigration-reform-and-control-act-of-1986

The employer verification system was never funded and employers simply set up sub-contractors to hire all their illegal aliens for them, thereby skirting the law.

I agree... We have the laws in place to do much of what is needed. Our government, however, has lacked the courage to actually implement the law and solve the problem. We as the citizens of this nation need to hold our elected officials accountable for their lack enforcing the law (President) and Funding the law (Congress). They ignore the problem because its politically damning to try and tackle it. That needs to be reversed.

TailgateNut
05-11-2010, 10:02 AM
That's simply not true.

He's clueless! If you consider the amount of credit I have established of the years and just look at one of the instances you'ld understand how easy it is to beat the safeguards which are in place.

This guy in washington state uses my SSN (who knows how he came up with the number or where he bought a false SS card).
He set up an account with Dish Network and they did a credit check. I actually was notified of the check and when I found out it was Dish and realized that I had an account I called them (local) and they told me no new accounts had been set up in my name. 1 year later I receive notification from my credit monitoring agency that I have a collections notice on 2 of 3 credit reports. When I finally dug through all the red tape I found out that this person had set up the account with another name and my SSN and had paid his bills for 8 months and then defaulted. Then Dish turned over the accounts recievable to a collections agancy which used my SSN to plac ethe report on my credit files.

Several agencies did not do their job. (Dish Network, Trans union, Experian, and the collections agency). The Name and SSN did not match, but no red flags popped up during the initial process.

How are you going to prevent this from happening???

Come on Moose.

You "know it all".

Do Tell!

OABB
05-11-2010, 10:06 AM
Here is what you do:

You tell all illegals that try can have their greencard in one day, all they have to do is take an American woman on a date to a lady gaga concert and than you have to go home and watch sex and the city with her. If you still want to be an American after that you are welcome no questions asked. But if you crack you must return home and never come back.

TailgateNut
05-11-2010, 10:08 AM
If you actually bothered to read other peoples' posts between your own rants, you'd know that my head is not in the sand, and that I hardly have a "who gives a ****" attitude. But whatever you need to tell yourself to justify your bigotry...

Also: Calm the **** down. All that anger can't be good for someone.


Over the past few days I've seen the "jest" of your posts and your willingness to cater to those who break the law and your unwillingness to defend our country and flag!
Totally unacceptable!

Anyone willing to to allow illegal immigrants to be rewarded for breaking the law is IMO just as guilty as those who break the law. Why have laws if we are willing to place an * behind them for a certain group.

Let's just become a lawless society and take care of business ourselves. I'm all for it.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-11-2010, 10:15 AM
Over the past few days I've seen the "jest" of your posts and your willingness to cater to those who break the law and your unwillingness to defend our country and flag!
Totally unacceptable!

Anyone willing to to allow illegal immigrants to be rewarded for breaking the law is IMO just as guilty as those who break the law. Why have laws if we are willing to place an * behind them for a certain group.

Let's just become a lawless society and take care of business ourselves. I'm all for it.

First, I believe you mean "gist" of my posts, not "jest." At no point was I kidding.

Second, you have not seen the "gist" of my posts if that is how you feel I think about the situation. Unwillingness to defend our country and flag? Are you ****ing kidding me?

You're a ****ing psychopath. Good luck with all that.

Durango
05-11-2010, 11:09 AM
First, I believe you mean "gist" of my posts, not "jest." At no point was I kidding.

Second, you have not seen the "gist" of my posts if that is how you feel I think about the situation. Unwillingness to defend our country and flag? Are you ****ing kidding me?

You're a ****ing psychopath. Good luck with all that.

Well, labeling him a bigot didn't help. Truth is; every American is so frustrated with this issue, some people probably would be willing to man the bordrs with machine guns. Face to face with a child, I seriously doubt any person here, no matter how frustrated, would actually shoot.

When I worked as an outfitter, I hired people at minimum wage all the time and, on one occasion I found a name didn't match with the Social. All it took was ONE CALL. I will grant you this; I sat on hold for the better part of 45 minutes after negotiating a weird and complex automated system, and a lot, if not most people aren't willing to do that, but if we are to get a handle on this problem, we've got to carve the time out of our schedule (I'm speaking as an employer) to assure the people working for us are legally here. We have to, because it's clear the federal government won't, or politically speaking, can't get it done.

TailgateNut
05-11-2010, 11:16 AM
Well, labeling him a bigot didn't help. Truth is; every American is so frustrated with this issue, some people probably would be willing to man the bordrs with machine guns. Face to face with a child, I seriously doubt any person here, no matter how frustrated, would actually shoot.

When I worked as an outfitter, I hired people at minimum wage all the time and, on one occasion I found a name didn't match with the Social. All it took was ONE CALL. I will grant you this; I sat on hold for the better part of 45 minutes after negotiating a weird and complex automated system, and a lot, if not most people aren't willing to do that, but if we are to get a handle on this problem, we've got to carve the time out of our schedule (I'm speaking as an employer) to assure the people working for us are legally here. We have to, because it's clear the federal government won't, or politically speaking, can't get it done.

I have also recieved letters from the IRS stating that there were "inconsistancies" in the employees' data. This was way before the current system was in place, and when I questioned him, he immediately quit.
We have done everything required by law to weed out the ineligible from being employed, but we're only as good as the system.
It's a bit tougher in my line of work because the majority of municipal entities require certification of eligibility and cerfied payroll record to verify employees.

I would tend to think that the majority of offenders in the construction industry are in the residential and commercial markets which are generally funded by private investors and are not as policed as we are.

Que
05-11-2010, 11:29 AM
Ick. How about we debate same sex marriage, abortion, God and capital punishment next.

But since you asked...

1. We have to ask ourselves is there really a problem? Or rather, a problem worth solving. We're all beneficiaries of illegal labor. Cheap food prices, cheap service prices, you name it. You get rid of illegal labor and we'll all feel it. What's worse? Higher prices or illegal immigrants?

2. So let's say we want to solve it. What are we objecting to? Being here and not paying taxes? Okay, great, let's give anyone who can walk across the border and work a green card. Problem solved. They pay taxes, are in the system, and are here legally.

3. That's not the problem? What we object to are people that are putting a burden on our social services and pulling down labor rates by doing work that naturalized citizens won't do (at that price). Okay, I don't follow the logic but let's shrink our labor pool for manual labor jobs which will jack prices up. How do we do that? Easy - TAKE AWAY THE JOBS. Enact Death Penalty like fines to corporations, individuals and down stream corporations that are caught employing illegals. No appeal. No inquest. You're caught employing an illegal be it a nanny or a laborer, automatic $100K fine per illegal, payable now, no if ands or buts about it. Hell, maybe it needs to be more.

Look, I am a good old fashioned Colorado mountain hippie. I would love to lambaste employers as big fat cats taking advantage of voiceless immigrants. But the truth is, if you are in an industry where your competition hires illegals you have no choice. You either do the same or you go out of business. Everyone needs to stop and stop now for the system to work.

So, let's say we do that and take the jobs away. Sure you will have some illegals that stay in country for a life of crime but the vast majority would leave. No jobs, no reason to be here. But think of the consequences. Think about the impact that would have on housing, food prices, home services, etc. You ready to pay 50% or more? With NAFTA, it would probably spell doom for US farmers and food producers. You ready to swallow that?

4. Kill NAFTA. Don't get me wrong, I think NAFTA is great. But ya, if you are going to deal a death blow to US agriculture and food production, you probably should think about killing NAFTA. NAFTA is actually a reason many illegals are here in the first place as it absolutely destroyed large chunks of the Mexican economy.

5. Blame the illegals themselves but be realistic. Seriously, if I were in Mexico and due to NAFTA saw my livelihood vanish and I am faced with not being able to support my family or going to work in the US illegally, guess what I would choose. Any parent would make that same decision. If you have never had children you can just STFU right now. The thought of having to see one my children starve because I can't put food on the table would be unbearable. No fence, no army, no set of laws would stand in my way. Pure and simple. So, what to do? Take away the option of working in the US as a solution (see #3). Okay, so now what? I can't go to the US for salvation and I see my daughter starving. Then what am I going to do? I am either going to turn to a life of crime (assuming I can't get a job in Mexico due to NAFTA) or I am going to foment revolution. Oh wow, congrats guys, we just turned Mexico into a Marxist state and a Marxist state that we have entrusted with our food production. Nice...

6. So as someone else said - every country in this world (and not just first world nations) has this problem. No one has found a good solution. This isn't new and it is a political football that we kick around all the time. Remember the Irish? How many of you morons have Irish blood in you? How about eastern Europeans? Cubans? Chinese? We've gone through this and will continue to go through this. We used to have more liberal immigration policies - that's the reason you Irish, Croats, Poles, Slavs etc weren't illegal. Faced with the horrors of the Potato Famine, you would have been here illegally anyhow - and I don't blame you.

7. Merge with Mexico and Canada. This actually isn't a bad idea at all. Both have ample natural resources. With NAFTA, we're exporting business to these countries. Perhaps we should be under the same economic system. Big ideas with big questions. For you Tea Partiers out there this actually hits on an idea as old as the country itself - Manifest Destiny.

Look, I'm not trying to insult people (well, yes I am but hey, I'm an immigrant too with a Irish last name). The thing about immigration is that there are no easy answers and many of the steps we have taken over the past decade have actually made our problem worse (NATFA, WTO, our pointless war on pot, etc). With the economy in shambles, a mounting debt/deficit the "big government" solutions being put forth by the Right aren't really workable solutions.

I think the only prudent, rational solution would be to:

1. Status Quo. Change nothing.

2. Amnesty (I think W and McCain version 1.7 had it right) and harsh automagic penalties for employers still hiring illegals. Don't kid yourself - prices will rise. Automatic deportation for felony conviction - sure, I'll agree to that.

3. Merge with Mexico and Canada. Ya right - like that will ever happen.

Rohirrim
05-11-2010, 11:31 AM
I have also recieved letters from the IRS stating that there were "inconsistancies" in the employees' data. This was way before the current system was in place, and when I questioned him, he immediately quit.
We have done everything required by law to weed out the ineligible from being employed, but we're only as good as the system.
It's a bit tougher in my line of work because the majority of municipal entities require certification of eligibility and cerfied payroll record to verify employees.

I would tend to think that the majority of offenders in the construction industry are in the residential and commercial markets which are generally funded by private investors and are not as policed as we are.

Any halfway decent programmer could put together an online SSN verification program for the government in a week. Any employer could simply punch in an SSN and get confirmation of validity (name) and location. In other words, if you've been paying taxes on that number for twenty years in Denver and suddenly somebody in Miami says they have that card, no go. This is extremely and easily doable, the people want it, and the government refuses to do it.

Durango
05-11-2010, 11:41 AM
Any halfway decent programmer could put together an online SSN verification program for the government in a week. Any employer could simply punch in an SSN and get confirmation of validity (name) and location. In other words, if you've been paying taxes on that number for twenty years in Denver and suddenly somebody in Miami says they have that card, no go. This is extremely and easily doable, the people want it, and the government refuses to do it.

My employer status goes back about 5 years, and that system wasn't in place at that time. I begged for something like that and even wrote my state and federal representatives. I wasn't aware it had become that simple. In that case, there should be no excuses for employers. None.

NYC Bronco
05-11-2010, 12:16 PM
Has anyone asked Tebow?

TailgateNut
05-11-2010, 12:45 PM
Any halfway decent programmer could put together an online SSN verification program for the government in a week. Any employer could simply punch in an SSN and get confirmation of validity (name) and location. In other words, if you've been paying taxes on that number for twenty years in Denver and suddenly somebody in Miami says they have that card, no go. This is extremely and easily doable, the people want it, and the government refuses to do it.

The current system does check SSN to Name, but that's as far as the "GENIUSES" in our goverment want to take this. As if the person who buys a SS card on the black market couldn't and wouldn't also pay the extra "pesos" to get a false ID to go along with the SSN.

We are a nation of ostriches!

GoBroncos DownUnder
05-11-2010, 01:39 PM
You're a ****ing psychopath. Good luck with all that.
TGN is by far one of the best "damned "****ing psychopaths" I have ever met!
Not many people on this board get as much credit as he does (for his open hospitality in throwing KICK-ASS tailgates) and accept it with as much humility as he does!

Call him what you will, about 90% of this board will now call you an ass clown.


Signed,
the LEGAL US Immigrant.;)

GoBroncos DownUnder
05-11-2010, 01:41 PM
Truth is; every American is so frustrated with this issue, some people probably would be willing to man the bordrs with machine guns.
Don't forget to add us legal immigrants to that list of people utterly frustrated by the system.;)

TailgateNut
05-11-2010, 01:48 PM
Don't forget to add us legal immigrants to that list of people utterly frustrated by the system.;)


But at least some still believe in the legal route to citizenship. We have an engineer who works for us. Has been employed for over 7 years. Went through the whole student visa, work visa and jumped through every damn hoop to go the legal route, but we have people who still think we should reward those who break the laws of our nation with automnatic citizenship.
Maybe we should also bake them a ****ing cake.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-11-2010, 02:07 PM
TGN is by far one of the best "damned "****ing psychopaths" I have ever met!
Not many people on this board get as much credit as he does (for his open hospitality in throwing KICK-ASS tailgates) and accept it with as much humility as he does!

Call him what you will, about 90% of this board will now call you an ass clown.


Signed,
the LEGAL US Immigrant.;)

Super cool story, bro. No, really. Do go on.

I said nothing about his hospitality, his willingness to host tailgates, and so on and so on. Nothing about it. Making it completely irrelevant to this discussion.

The guy is talking about taking up arms and shooting at whoever he goddamn feels like. Sounds like clock tower psycho stuff to me, but hey, he throws a killer tailgate, so nevermind!

So. ****ing. Stupid.

TailgateNut
05-11-2010, 02:14 PM
Super cool story, bro. No, really. Do go on.

I said nothing about his hospitality, his willingness to host tailgates, and so on and so on. Nothing about it. Making it completely irrelevant to this discussion.

The guy is talking about taking up arms and shooting at whoever he goddamn feels like. Sounds like clock tower psycho stuff to me, but hey, he throws a killer tailgate, so nevermind!

So. ****ing. Stupid.


Please show me the post where I make this statement.

If not STFU and go rescue a few illegals from the desert.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-11-2010, 02:18 PM
Please show me the post where I make this statement.

If not STFU and go rescue a few illegals from the desert.

It's in post 86. You can thank me later.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2839566&postcount=86

And I quote (SIC):
"I'm all for shooting them as they invade outr country. A bullet is cheaper than the costs of subsidizing their existance in our country. If they feel like they have the right to invade our country (breaking the law) and feel it's ok to steal the identities of legal citizens (breaking the law) to obtain work on false pretenses/info (breaking the law) and then obtain taxpayer funded services fraudulently (breaking the law), I, in turn, think we have the right to defend ourselves and our country with whatever force required to stop these lawless people."

TailgateNut
05-11-2010, 02:25 PM
It's in post 86. You can thank me later.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2839566&postcount=86

And I quote (SIC):
"I'm all for shooting them as they invade outr country. A bullet is cheaper than the costs of subsidizing their existance in our country. If they feel like they have the right to invade our country (breaking the law) and feel it's ok to steal the identities of legal citizens (breaking the law) to obtain work on false pretenses/info (breaking the law) and then obtain taxpayer funded services fraudulently (breaking the law), I, in turn, think we have the right to defend ourselves and our country with whatever force required to stop these lawless people."

"The guy is talking about taking up arms and shooting at whoever he goddamn feels like." You failed comprehension 101.


BTW: I am still for lethal force to stop the invasion!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-11-2010, 02:27 PM
"The guy is talking about taking up arms and shooting at whoever he goddamn feels like." You failed comprehension 101.

Uh huh. You weren't using the "royal 'we'"? I don't buy it.

Sorry TGN. Hard to read that any other way than "the guy wants to pick up a gun and shoot people coming into the country."

Perhaps you should think before you type. Then you wouldn't have to backpedal.

"BTW: I am still for lethal force to stop the invasion!"

Just as long as I don't have to do it! Because as much as I want it, I'm talking about "we" not "I" specifically!

Dagmar
05-11-2010, 02:54 PM
http://jeffkatz.typepad.com/.a/6a0120a721c2d7970b0133ed62ee63970b-800wi

TailgateNut
05-11-2010, 03:57 PM
Uh huh. You weren't using the "royal 'we'"? I don't buy it.

Sorry TGN. Hard to read that any other way than "the guy wants to pick up a gun and shoot people coming into the country."

Perhaps you should think before you type. Then you wouldn't have to backpedal.



Just as long as I don't have to do it! Because as much as I want it, I'm talking about "we" not "I" specifically!


You know what little buddy. I don't really give a flying **** about you nor about what you think of me. You don't matter in the grand scheme of things. You are just one of many illegal immigrant apologists who, as far as I'm concerned, could fall of the edge of the earth tomorrow, and life would be better.
Maybe you feel that laws should not apply to them because of their difficult situation. If so, maybe all of our laws should have an * to be considered on a case by case basis. So the poor white guy who robs a bank should be rewarded with a few extra dollars because he had a rough life and was just trying to feed his family. Or maybe the poor black guy who snatched a purse should be given a humanitarian award for doing it out of concern of his family. or maybe the poor white guy who buglarizes houses should get a get out of jail for life card. Or, maybe you are just ****ing clueless as to the effects of illegal immigration on our nation, our neighborhoods, our schools and medical facilities.

I think the latter applies in your case.

....and yes, I still believe a few strategically used bullets would go a long way in solving this ****ing disease. A disease of false entitlement which has infected a large portion of the US.

How about telling those who have taken the legal avenue, and have had to battle their particular situation while waiting for the RIGHT to enter our country, that they are no better than those who CHEAT the system.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-11-2010, 04:53 PM
Don't forget to add us legal immigrants to that list of people utterly frustrated by the system.;)

Most of the people I know who had to jump through all the hoops to take the legal path to U.S. citizenship see these illegals as a slap in the face - and I don't blame them one bit.

Dukes
05-11-2010, 05:06 PM
Most of the people I know who had to jump through all the hoops to take the legal path to U.S. citizenship see these illegals as a slap in the face - and I don't blame them one bit.

Agree, my sister-in-law gained US citizenship from Croatia and has said practically the same thing.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-11-2010, 05:26 PM
You know what little buddy. I don't really give a flying **** about you nor about what you think of me. You don't matter in the grand scheme of things. You are just one of many illegal immigrant apologists who, as far as I'm concerned, could fall of the edge of the earth tomorrow, and life would be better.
Maybe you feel that laws should not apply to them because of their difficult situation. If so, maybe all of our laws should have an * to be considered on a case by case basis. So the poor white guy who robs a bank should be rewarded with a few extra dollars because he had a rough life and was just trying to feed his family. Or maybe the poor black guy who snatched a purse should be given a humanitarian award for doing it out of concern of his family. or maybe the poor white guy who buglarizes houses should get a get out of jail for life card. Or, maybe you are just ****ing clueless as to the effects of illegal immigration on our nation, our neighborhoods, our schools and medical facilities.

I think the latter applies in your case.

....and yes, I still believe a few strategically used bullets would go a long way in solving this ****ing disease. A disease of false entitlement which has infected a large portion of the US.

How about telling those who have taken the legal avenue, and have had to battle their particular situation while waiting for the RIGHT to enter our country, that they are no better than those who CHEAT the system.

Try to pay attention to the actual argument and discussion at hand instead of going off on yet ANOTHER violent, angry white man rant. Just try it. For a change.

Also, for someone who doesn't care what I think, you certainly defend yourself awfully loud against my claims.

Grow up, settle down, and try discussing things without throwing out strawman arguments or resorting to bull**** hypotheticals. You're better than that. At least, I THINK you're better than that.

TailgateNut
05-11-2010, 05:46 PM
Try to pay attention to the actual argument and discussion at hand instead of going off on yet ANOTHER violent, angry white man rant. Just try it. For a change.

Also, for someone who doesn't care what I think, you certainly defend yourself awfully loud against my claims.

Grow up, settle down, and try discussing things without throwing out strawman arguments or resorting to bull**** hypotheticals. You're better than that. At least, I THINK you're better than that.


Maybe I'm not when it concerns this issue, and if I'm such a psychopath as you claim, wouldn't it be a better idea not to continue this little ****ing game.

Dagmar
05-11-2010, 06:00 PM
Most of the people I know who had to jump through all the hoops to take the legal path to U.S. citizenship see these illegals as a slap in the face - and I don't blame them one bit.

I spent 3 years and hundreds and hundreds of dollars myself just to marry the woman I love! Worth it though.

Que
05-11-2010, 07:06 PM
You know what little buddy. I don't really give a flying **** about you nor..... Blah blah blah ......

....and yes, I still believe a few strategically used bullets would go a long way in solving this ****ing disease. A disease of false entitlement which has infected a large portion of the US.... Blah blah blah
.

Wow! You look good in hate! It becomes you and really sets off your eyes. You should try accessorizing with a splash of rage or a dash of bigotry. You go girl!

GoBroncos DownUnder
05-11-2010, 07:47 PM
I spent 3 years and hundreds and hundreds of dollars myself just to marry the woman I love! Worth it though.
REP! Right there with you man!

My latest "kick in the balls" is a $625.00 filing fee to accompany my I-751 form - Petition to Remove Conditions on Residence. Plus the Lawyers fee of $250 to lodge it.


When you allow ILLEGAL immigrants to enter the country and settle in you make a mockery of all the **** I have endured by following and respecting the laws of the USA.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-11-2010, 08:40 PM
REP! Right there with you man!

My latest "kick in the balls" is a $625.00 filing fee to accompany my I-751 form - Petition to Remove Conditions on Residence. Plus the Lawyers fee of $250 to lodge it.


When you allow ILLEGAL immigrants to enter the country and settle in you make a mockery of all the **** I have endured by following and respecting the laws of the USA.

/thread

Dagmar
05-11-2010, 08:42 PM
REP! Right there with you man!

My latest "kick in the balls" is a $625.00 filing fee to accompany my I-751 form - Petition to Remove Conditions on Residence. Plus the Lawyers fee of $250 to lodge it.


When you allow ILLEGAL immigrants to enter the country and settle in you make a mockery of all the **** I have endured by following and respecting the laws of the USA.

This is one of the reasons I get pissed when trolls attack me and call me an illegal. I worked ****ing HARD to get here. And paid a LOT.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-11-2010, 08:51 PM
But at least some still believe in the legal route to citizenship. We have an engineer who works for us. Has been employed for over 7 years. Went through the whole student visa, work visa and jumped through every damn hoop to go the legal route, but we have people who still think we should reward those who break the laws of our nation with automnatic citizenship.


:yep:

And if you point this out, some straw man artist will call you a "racist" or a "bigot."

Putting the whole immigration issue aside for just a second, I'd like to know what the government is going to do to stop these slime bags from bringing mass quantities of illegal drugs into this country...?

What percentage of the illegal drugs that enter the country enter through Mexico?

I forgot the exact figure, but the answer is "almost all."

strafen
05-11-2010, 09:46 PM
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L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-11-2010, 09:56 PM
^ Bush wanted amnesty and work visas for illegals.

Neither party seems to want to do squat about the problem (don't want to piss off the people handing out the checks.)

Que
05-11-2010, 10:14 PM
^ Bush wanted amnesty and work visas for illegals.

Neither party seems to want to do squat about the problem (don't want to piss off the people handing out the checks.)

One of the only times he was right.

Actually I voted for him in 2000. Oh Christ! I can't believe I admitted that. I am going to go to Mountain Hippie Hell for that (otherwise known as North Dallas)

GoBroncos DownUnder
05-11-2010, 11:37 PM
One of the only times he was right.

So genius, do explain to us hard working, tax paying, legal immigrants your logic for giving ILLEGAL immigrants an amnesty and work visas? I'm all ears!

Que
05-12-2010, 06:29 AM
So genius, do explain to us hard working, tax paying, legal immigrants your logic for giving ILLEGAL immigrants an amnesty and work visas? I'm all ears!

Because I would rather have them be hard working, tax paying, legal, immigrants rather than hard working, non tax paying, illegal immigrants.

Call me a pragmatist but:

1. I don't believe the powers that be really want to stop illegal immigration (see my earlier post)

2. Even if they did, I don't think they could stop it. NOTE: name another country in the world with such a large land border that has been able to stop illegal immigration. You could probably throw out the USSR and China but then again, are you really advocating we become more like the former USSR and communist China? Srsly?

3. So, I am left with the conclusion that illegal immigration will always be a problem. So in that case, the logical path is to figure out how to make the most of it.

Rigs11
05-12-2010, 08:29 AM
So genius, do explain to us hard working, tax paying, legal immigrants your logic for giving ILLEGAL immigrants an amnesty and work visas? I'm all ears!

umm..so they do pay taxes.seriously it's not that hard to comprehend. We have a workforce that relies on immigrants.as many as you think that americans will go work in a field or in a slaughterhouse for $8 an hour with no benefits and in many cases not even any workmans comp,you are fooling yourselves. don't like illegal immigration? then stop eating at McDonalds, stop eating at taco bell.you think that $1 burger comes from american workers?what is the problem with making the law abiding workers legal?i go back to my analogy that this is like the people that complain about the deficit but don't want to pay higher taxes.

Beantown Bronco
05-12-2010, 08:46 AM
I spent 3 years and hundreds and hundreds of dollars myself just to marry the woman I love! Worth it though.

This is the Mane. Shouldn't it read:

I spent 3 years and thousands and thousands of dollars myself just to divorce the woman I loved! Worth it though.

Maybe I'm just getting ahead of myself. :wiggle:

Hamrob
05-12-2010, 08:51 AM
I've thought about this alot over the years. When I was younger living in New Mexico, I was very much in favor of deportation and it upset me a great deal that in many respects, that liberals defended illegals to the hilt.

And, although I've soften my stance some over the years, it's becoming an even bigger issue I believe. I can't fault illegals for trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. I mean, if I had been born in Mexico, I would find a way to get to the US too, even if it meant being illegal.

I've come to believe, the issue runs deeper than illegal aliens, it really strikes at the core of sociology and what our Country once was and is quickly now becoming.

The US has grown 4x it's population since 1950 and the projections for the next 25yrs are scary. The reality is, the classes that are growing so quickly are our poor and those in poverty. For many reasons, we can't prevent kids from having kids and we can't educate people quickly enough to stop what's happening. Mexican Americans including other minority groups make up the vast amount of the population that resides in poverty, yet their population growth is growing so quickly, that soon we will become an extention of Mexico and South America.

Unless, we stop being so PC, and start taking a hard line with those individuals who mass produce while on welfare...this country will never recover. That's a fact...and the illegal alien equasition is only a small part of it.

bowtown
05-12-2010, 08:56 AM
So genius, do explain to us hard working, tax paying, legal immigrants your logic for giving ILLEGAL immigrants an amnesty and work visas? I'm all ears!

Then you clearly make more money than most illegal immigrants. Even if they were legal, they would not be paying taxes due to their income bracket. They would only be paying sales tax on goods they purchased... which by the way they do now. Just to play a little devil's advocate.

TailgateNut
05-12-2010, 12:07 PM
umm..so they do pay taxes.seriously it's not that hard to comprehend. We have a workforce that relies on immigrants.as many as you think that americans will go work in a field or in a slaughterhouse for $8 an hour with no benefits and in many cases not even any workmans comp,you are fooling yourselves. don't like illegal immigration? then stop eating at McDonalds, stop eating at taco bell.you think that $1 burger comes from american workers?what is the problem with making the law abiding workers legal?i go back to my analogy that this is like the people that complain about the deficit but don't want to pay higher taxes.

I always love the " if you legalize/ naturalize them, they will pay taxes" and the "americans wont do the work" crowd (usually those are tossed out by the same individual.

So, let say we naturalize/legalize them. Make them pay back taxes, fines and all the fees associated with gaining legal residency/ citizenship. Do you actually think that these workers will then do the same jobs for the same pay.

I THINK NOT!!!

So, the end result remains the same. Prices either have to rise or we have to "import" more illegal immigrants to take the low paying jobs.

See the error in your thinking is that legalizing them will solve the issues. Right now these workers are most likely claiming enough dependents to be exempt from fed/state tax withholdings. If they aren't filing a return due to false ssn info, they have nothing more to loose/fear. They are also burdening every social entitlement program (education, food stamps/ housing/ medical....etc).

If legalized/ provided with amnesty they will quite possibly still be tax exempt due to the avg family size and minimal income, and will continue to burden the social system.

The only option is to:
1.Close the border
2.Deport all illegal immigrants. These individuals will have to go to the back of the line for legal re-entry into the US. (only fair for those who have been persuing the legal route)
3.expand the guest worker program to allow temporary workers to come to the us for the harvest season and various other approved low income positions (win-win for both sides). Worker gets a job with monitored rights violations by the employer, and is able to provide for his family at home with hourly rates which exceed daily income rates in Mexico.
4.Establish laws which impose large fines and mandate incarceration for any business which employs any illegal immigrant. (no excuses)
5.The above will also require a system to be in place and failsafe for verifying employment eligibility.
6.Once this system is in place, anyone caught entering this country illegally shall be incarcerated until deportation and then never eligible to re-enter the US!
7. THE BIGGY: Achor baby laws must be negated. One or both parents must be American citizens for the child to obtain citizenship by birth with dual citizenship being an option.

Que
05-12-2010, 12:17 PM
Hey TGN - on item #7 (your "Anchor Baby" point otherwise known as the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution)... I'm not down with monkeying around with our Constitution. But since you opened the can or worms...

How about I trade you the 14th Amendment for the 2nd Amendment straight up? I'd take that deal in a heartbeat.

All kidding aside, you seem to feel pretty strongly against the 14th Amendment. I get the concept but do you have any numbers that show that 14th Amendment citizenship is a big problem? It seems to me that the crux of the issue is with illegal immigration not naturalized citizens (under the 14th Amendment).

atomicbloke
05-12-2010, 12:30 PM
Hey TGN - on item #7 (your "Anchor Baby" point otherwise known as the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution)... I'm not down with monkeying around with our Constitution. But since you opened the can or worms...

How about I trade you the 14th Amendment for the 2nd Amendment straight up? I'd take that deal in a heartbeat.

All kidding aside, you seem to feel pretty strongly against the 14th Amendment. I get the concept but do you have any numbers that show that 14th Amendment citizenship is a big problem? It seems to me that the crux of the issue is with illegal immigration not naturalized citizens (under the 14th Amendment).

He is talking about naturalizing kids born to parents who were illegal immigrants. The anchor baby thing.

I don't think anyone has a problem with naturalizing a kid if they born to parents who immigrated legally, followed all the rules and have paid higher taxes.

Que
05-12-2010, 12:42 PM
He is talking about naturalizing kids born to parents who were illegal immigrants. The anchor baby thing.

I don't think anyone has a problem with naturalizing a kid if they born to parents who immigrated legally, followed all the rules and have paid higher taxes.

Ya, that's the 14th Amendment. Only requirement is that they were born in the US not that they were born in the US to naturalized parents.

Section 1

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Dedhed
05-12-2010, 12:46 PM
People calling for the end of illegals have no idea how integral they are to the infrasructure of our economy.

I find it ironic that it's generally the uber-capitalists who cry loudest about illegals.

Rigs11
05-12-2010, 12:47 PM
I always love the " if you legalize/ naturalize them, they will pay taxes" and the "americans wont do the work" crowd (usually those are tossed out by the same individual.

So, let say we naturalize/legalize them. Make them pay back taxes, fines and all the fees associated with gaining legal residency/ citizenship. Do you actually think that these workers will then do the same jobs for the same pay.

I THINK NOT!!!

So, the end result remains the same. Prices either have to rise or we have to "import" more illegal immigrants to take the low paying jobs.

See the error in your thinking is that legalizing them will solve the issues. Right now these workers are most likely claiming enough dependents to be exempt from fed/state tax withholdings. If they aren't filing a return due to false ssn info, they have nothing more to loose/fear. They are also burdening every social entitlement program (education, food stamps/ housing/ medical....etc).

If legalized/ provided with amnesty they will quite possibly still be tax exempt due to the avg family size and minimal income, and will continue to burden the social system.

The only option is to:
1.Close the border
2.Deport all illegal immigrants. These individuals will have to go to the back of the line for legal re-entry into the US. (only fair for those who have been persuing the legal route)
3.expand the guest worker program to allow temporary workers to come to the us for the harvest season and various other approved low income positions (win-win for both sides). Worker gets a job with monitored rights violations by the employer, and is able to provide for his family at home with hourly rates which exceed daily income rates in Mexico.
4.Establish laws which impose large fines and mandate incarceration for any business which employs any illegal immigrant. (no excuses)
5.The above will also require a system to be in place and failsafe for verifying employment eligibility.
6.Once this system is in place, anyone caught entering this country illegally shall be incarcerated until deportation and then never eligible to re-enter the US!
7. THE BIGGY: Achor baby laws must be negated. One or both parents must be American citizens for the child to obtain citizenship by birth with dual citizenship being an option.
yeah actually I do think they will still do the jobs. Even after being taxed they will still make more than they would in mexico.let me ask you this. do you shop at walmart? do you eat at Mcdonalds? If you do then you are supporting the companies that accept illegals to make more money. Ready for a 10 dollar big mac?cuz that s what it will cost when you get the american worker to work at the slaughterhouse.that's what it will cost when you get the american worker to work the fields.

boppool
05-12-2010, 01:28 PM
Solution:

http://lastrow.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/tim-tebow.jpg

TailgateNut
05-12-2010, 02:07 PM
yeah actually I do think they will still do the jobs. Even after being taxed they will still make more than they would in mexico.let me ask you this. do you shop at walmart? do you eat at Mcdonalds? If you do then you are supporting the companies that accept illegals to make more money. Ready for a 10 dollar big mac?cuz that s what it will cost when you get the american worker to work at the slaughterhouse.that's what it will cost when you get the american worker to work the fields.

To answer your questions.

No, I refuse to shop at WalMart!
No, I do not eat at McDonalds. (I think it serves garbage)


and no a Big mac wont triple in cost. That's a ****ing scare tactic. Plenty of teens looking for work, and as far as the fields are concerned put the lazy MFers who are on welfare/ food stamps/ sec8 housing to ****ing work.

Rohirrim
05-12-2010, 02:10 PM
People calling for the end of illegals have no idea how integral they are to the infrasructure of our economy.

I find it ironic that it's generally the uber-capitalists who cry loudest about illegals.

Oh bull****. When I was a young man, I worked in construction for a few years. Every job, on every site I went to, was filled with Americans. Now you'd be lucky to find anybody speaking English at a job site. You call that "integral?" I call that taking jobs away from Americans. Find an American who can sustain himself doing drywall, tilework, painting, framing, roofing, etc. etc etc. Those were damn good American jobs. Thousands of them. Just because somebody comes over the border illegally and takes a job doesn't make them "integral." It just means they'll work cheaper. What amazes me is how many liberals want to give across the board amnesty to millions of illegals. There was a time when "liberal" meant sticking up for the working man. Not any more, unless the "working man" happens to be from Mexico.

Rohirrim
05-12-2010, 02:15 PM
yeah actually I do think they will still do the jobs. Even after being taxed they will still make more than they would in mexico.let me ask you this. do you shop at walmart? do you eat at Mcdonalds? If you do then you are supporting the companies that accept illegals to make more money. Ready for a 10 dollar big mac?cuz that s what it will cost when you get the american worker to work at the slaughterhouse.that's what it will cost when you get the american worker to work the fields.

Really? Who was doing those jobs 20 years ago? Thirty? Forty? The market will control costs. Companies hire illegals because it gives them more profit. What liberals in government should be doing is taking action and fighting to protect the wages and quality of life of working Americans. Instead, they're shilling for the Latino vote while more Americans get driven into poverty by the invasion of illegal aliens.

Que
05-12-2010, 02:27 PM
To answer your questions.

No, I refuse to shop at WalMart!
No, I do not eat at McDonalds. (I think it serves garbage)


and no a Big mac wont triple in cost. That's a ****ing scare tactic. Plenty of teens looking for work, and as far as the fields are concerned put the lazy MFers who are on welfare/ food stamps/ sec8 housing to ****ing work.

Dude, why you gotta be like that? It was oh so much easier when I could characterize you as a WalMart shoppin', Big Mac eatin', gun shootin', Glen Beck listenin', suburban livin', cheap stuff buyin', Palin lovin' wing nut. Now you went ahead and started saying stuff that I actually approve of. :D

As for food prices - you're kidding yourself if you don't think they won't go through the roof if farmers have to pay non-migrant workers. Here's a good article that was in the Denver Post a while back about trying to hire Coloradans to pick fruit.

http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_14911550?obref=obnetwork

To be honest with you, I really wouldn't mind if food prices went up. We eat like tawdry Romans in this country and most likely, the sector hit hardest by the elimination of illegal worker would be the Food Conglomerates who are evil anyhow.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-12-2010, 02:38 PM
Oh bull****. When I was a young man, I worked in construction for a few years. Every job, on every site I went to, was filled with Americans. Now you'd be lucky to find anybody speaking English at a job site. You call that "integral?" I call that taking jobs away from Americans. Find an American who can sustain himself doing drywall, tilework, painting, framing, roofing, etc. etc etc. Those were damn good American jobs. Thousands of them. Just because somebody comes over the border illegally and takes a job doesn't make them "integral." It just means they'll work cheaper. What amazes me is how many liberals want to give across the board amnesty to millions of illegals. There was a time when "liberal" meant sticking up for the working man. Not any more, unless the "working man" happens to be from Mexico.

And yet, you'd rather punish those in search of a better life than punish those employing illegals? Seriously?

Until you stop the possibility of employment, no fence, no guard, not even TGN with a rifle will stop all the people from taking "American jobs."

jhat01
05-12-2010, 02:41 PM
really? Who was doing those jobs 20 years ago? Thirty? Forty? The market will control costs. Companies hire illegals because it gives them more profit. What liberals in government should be doing is taking action and fighting to protect the wages and quality of life of working americans. Instead, they're shilling for the latino vote while more americans get driven into poverty by the invasion of illegal aliens.

this

atomicbloke
05-12-2010, 03:03 PM
Really? Who was doing those jobs 20 years ago? Thirty? Forty? The market will control costs. Companies hire illegals because it gives them more profit. What liberals in government should be doing is taking action and fighting to protect the wages and quality of life of working Americans. Instead, they're shilling for the Latino vote while more Americans get driven into poverty by the invasion of illegal aliens.

It's called capitalism.

Rigs11
05-12-2010, 03:31 PM
Really? Who was doing those jobs 20 years ago? Thirty? Forty? The market will control costs. Companies hire illegals because it gives them more profit. What liberals in government should be doing is taking action and fighting to protect the wages and quality of life of working Americans. Instead, they're shilling for the Latino vote while more Americans get driven into poverty by the invasion of illegal aliens.
of course they hire illegals because they make more profit. and some of those profits get handed down to the consumer.Are you willing to pay more for food if it means deporting all the illegals? did we have 1 dollar cheeseburgers 40 years ago?adjust for inflation.

TailgateNut
05-12-2010, 03:34 PM
And yet, you'd rather punish those in search of a better life than punish those employing illegals? Seriously?

Until you stop the possibility of employment, no fence, no guard, not even TGN with a rifle will stop all the people from taking "American jobs."


I'm in search of a better life. Should I be punished if I break the law to meet that goal?....or should I be rewarded?

Rigs11
05-12-2010, 03:37 PM
To answer your questions.

No, I refuse to shop at WalMart!
No, I do not eat at McDonalds. (I think it serves garbage)


and no a Big mac wont triple in cost. That's a ****ing scare tactic. Plenty of teens looking for work, and as far as the fields are concerned put the lazy MFers who are on welfare/ food stamps/ sec8 housing to ****ing work.
a scare tactic?You mean to tell me that the price of ground beef,lettuce, tomatoes, on a sesame seed bun wont be affected when companies have to pay american employees more money and benefits?I do agree that those welfare mofos need to get off their asses, but who will enforce this?

TailgateNut
05-12-2010, 03:41 PM
of course they hire illegals because they make more profit. and some of those profits get handed down to the consumer.Are you willing to pay more for food if it means deporting all the illegals? did we have 1 dollar cheeseburgers 40 years ago?adjust for inflation.


Blah, blah, blah.......the illegal immigrant lovers always want to point out the additional costs we would face but always neglect to point out the savings we would realize.

Farm labor can still be "imported" with work visas and I know many teens who would be happy to do those fast food jobs.

Keep kidding yourself and keep rewarding CRIMINALS!

INbronco
05-12-2010, 04:21 PM
my thoughts:
1. kicking them all out is impossible.
2. keeping them out is impossible.
3. businesses want them here.
4. they can actually be good for this country
my solution:
1. recognize that this is an independent problem within immigration
2. establish special green card rules for mexican nationals
3. establish really large fines for ANY company employing illegals without greencard
4. tax and regulate mexican green carders the same as american citizens.
5. do not allow any exemptions to above; prosecute individuals and companies to fullest extent.

Que
05-12-2010, 04:42 PM
my thoughts:
1. kicking them all out is impossible.
2. keeping them out is impossible.
3. businesses want them here.
4. they can actually be good for this country
my solution:
1. recognize that this is an independent problem within immigration
2. establish special green card rules for mexican nationals
3. establish really large fines for ANY company employing illegals without greencard
4. tax and regulate mexican green carders the same as american citizens.
5. do not allow any exemptions to above; prosecute individuals and companies to fullest extent.

You have my vote

bowtown
05-12-2010, 04:59 PM
Blah, blah, blah.......the illegal immigrant lovers always want to point out the additional costs we would face but always neglect to point out the savings we would realize.

Farm labor can still be "imported" with work visas and I know many teens who would be happy to do those fast food jobs.

Keep kidding yourself and keep rewarding CRIMINALS!

Ahhh, I see so it's the Mexicans who are keeping your teen friends from taking that job? Interesting, the fast food restaraunts in your area have an illegal, no-English only clause in their entry level hiring?

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-12-2010, 05:04 PM
Really? Who was doing those jobs 20 years ago? Thirty? Forty? The market will control costs. Companies hire illegals because it gives them more profit. What liberals in government should be doing is taking action and fighting to protect the wages and quality of life of working Americans. Instead, they're shilling for the Latino vote while more Americans get driven into poverty by the invasion of illegal aliens.

Ding ding ding! Winner.

GoBroncos DownUnder
05-12-2010, 06:00 PM
If it's too hard to enforce the LAW, you know what the cowards of most countries do?
They lobby to change the law.
It's the easy way out, the other stuff is too hard to deal with.


Following TGN's "in search of a better life" ideal: You live in South-Central LA, and you want a better life, why not just invade someone's house in a better neighborhood? It makes sense, SthCent-LA sucks and I want a better life as I can't find a job, now if you can just change the laws for me to make it legal!:thumbs:
Losers.

baja
05-12-2010, 06:27 PM
I'd like to see what some of the ideas here are.

Public sentiment and logistical issues prevent some options:

1. Mass Deportation - this is simply impossible given the lack of resources in law enforcement.

2. Open Borders - this is not a solution that Americans will approve, and its not a viable solution for the country. This would lead to a collapse of the infrastructure of border states, and later, the country. Not a solution.


Okay, the plan that I think would work...

1) Close the Borders - construct a fence. Increase law enforcement presence on the border including tunnel-detecting and breech-detecting technology.

2) Establish Naturalization Path - a) require knowledge of American politics, history, the English language, federal laws, and local laws...establish naturalization classes for a cost, b) pay naturalization penalties for breaking the law (its important to reestablish the law as the standard)

3) Enforce Immigration Law - begin fining employers who employ illegal aliens, begin deporting criminals, begin deporting all illegals who do not meet the naturalization standards (immediately deport felons imprisoned or not), and after a grace period that allows families to raise money for naturalization process, begin deporting those who do not follow through with stipulations that the path to naturalization can be continued if money is raised in Mexico.

etc.

Anyway, that's my take on some of the issues. What's your idea?

Issue a quota of work permits limited to say a six month cycle and eligible for renewal. Issue IDs to the workers and if asked by the proper authorities they must show the ID. If they violate the terms they are not allowed to return. Any employer hiring someone without a work permit is heavily fined or imprisoned. The workers would pay taxes and have some rights. They would have to have their exit visa stamped at the border and a copy sent to the government office handling the program. If the stamped visa did not return by the expiration date then they are blacklisted from ever getting another permit. As for the ones already here the new employer penalties would take care of that over time. Many of them could have preferred status to the quota of permits and some could be offered residency if they fulfill a certain criteria.

I like this idea... ;D

TailgateNut
05-12-2010, 06:38 PM
Ahhh, I see so it's the Mexicans who are keeping your teen friends from taking that job? Interesting, the fast food restaraunts in your area have an illegal, no-English only clause in their entry level hiring?


First of all, these are not my friends. We don't need to do a naitonwide poll to know that job availabiltiy for teens is practically non-existant. Why? Because others are taking these jobs teens would generally fill. Who do you think is doing these jobs?

Your turn. MensaMan.

GreatBronco16
05-12-2010, 07:30 PM
First of all, these are not my friends. We don't need to do a naitonwide poll to know that job availabiltiy for teens is practically non-existant. Why? Because others are taking these jobs teens would generally fill. Who do you think is doing these jobs?

Your turn. MensaMan.

It's the old retired people doing it. Never do you see a young person as a greater at Wal-Mart.

Dedhed
05-12-2010, 07:36 PM
Blah, blah, blah.......the illegal immigrant lovers always want to point out the additional costs we would face but always neglect to point out the savings we would realize.

Farm labor can still be "imported" with work visas and I know many teens who would be happy to do those fast food jobs.

Keep kidding yourself and keep rewarding CRIMINALS!

You are just woefully ignorant on economics.

If you want to see 5% inflation in a single day, follow your advice and deport all illegals. And spend trillions of dollars doing it.

If you want to spend trillions of tax dollars to develop and implement farm labor programs, and still see inflation, follow your advice.

If you want to put thousands of American businesses out on the street by forcing them to pay "legal" wages, follow your advice.

Keep kidding yourself and thinking that America doesn't thrive on slave labor.

Dedhed
05-12-2010, 07:45 PM
First of all, these are not my friends. We don't need to do a naitonwide poll to know that job availabiltiy for teens is practically non-existant. Why? Because others are taking these jobs teens would generally fill. Who do you think is doing these jobs?

Your turn. MensaMan.
So are you asking whether an employer would rather pay a legal wage to someone with no experience, or pay far less for better work?

Yeah, let's talk about brains.

TailgateNut
05-13-2010, 07:09 AM
You are just woefully ignorant on economics.

If you want to see 5% inflation in a single day, follow your advice and deport all illegals. And spend trillions of dollars doing it.

If you want to spend trillions of tax dollars to develop and implement farm labor programs, and still see inflation, follow your advice.

If you want to put thousands of American businesses out on the street by forcing them to pay "legal" wages, follow your advice.

Keep kidding yourself and thinking that America doesn't thrive on slave labor.

Yep, let's just toss our laws aside, spit in the collective faces of all those who have struggled to gain entry and US citizenship the "right way" by rewarding those who break the law with the gift of amnesty.
Let's sell our souls for a buck.

Even if we rid ourselves of those who spit on our laws, we will still be able to import enough labor to perform those jobs "Americans wont do", as many here claim.

American citizens who cheat on their taxes face massive fines and incarceration, but illegal immigrants do it every day of the year. No problem. They're special!! Right?

You people make me want to puke!

TailgateNut
05-13-2010, 07:13 AM
So are you asking whether an employer would rather pay a legal wage to someone with no experience, or pay far less for better work?

Yeah, let's talk about brains.

Oh, I see, those illegal immigrants were born with the skill of flipping burgers. They have a "BurgerU" degree.
Or maybe they passed "Pick an Apple 101".

I get it.

The experience is in their DNA.

I'm sorry, but you can sell it all you want, I'm not buying your BS!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-13-2010, 07:15 AM
I'm in search of a better life. Should I be punished if I break the law to meet that goal?....or should I be rewarded?

You just love boiling arguments down to the absolute lowest common denominator. You're a classic right wing ideologue that way.

There's no middle ground there? Seriously?

It wouldn't make sense to help these people (not "reward," really, since they'll still have to do the work) gain their citizenship and start contributing to the society by paying taxes and working legally in this country? That wouldn't make sense?

Also, you completely avoided the crux of my statement. Not surprising. The fact is, until we make it prohibitive for companies to hire illegals, there isn't a fence in the world that will stop these folks from coming over the border.

Stop the jobs, stem the flow. Stop the illegals... well, more will be here tomorrow.

Dedhed
05-13-2010, 07:26 AM
Oh, I see, those illegal immigrants were born with the skill of flipping burgers. They have a "BurgerU" degree.
Or maybe they passed "Pick an Apple 101".

I get it.

The experience is in their DNA.

I'm sorry, but you can sell it all you want, I'm not buying your BS!You're missing the point entirely. Thousands of American companies are able to stay in business solely because they pay illegals less than minimum wage.

Importing legal work would dramatically increase their payroll. You can whine about it all you want, but it's capitalism, the American Way.

TailgateNut
05-13-2010, 07:27 AM
You just love boiling arguments down to the absolute lowest common denominator. You're a classic right wing ideologue that way.
There's no middle ground there? Seriously?

It wouldn't make sense to help these people (not "reward," really, since they'll still have to do the work) gain their citizenship and start contributing to the society by paying taxes and working legally in this country? That wouldn't make sense?

Also, you completely avoided the crux of my statement. Not surprising. The fact is, until we make it prohibitive for companies to hire illegals, there isn't a fence in the world that will stop these folks from coming over the border.

Stop the jobs, stem the flow. Stop the illegals... well, more will be here tomorrow.


LOL


FYI:
Most Americans polled like Arizona's immigration law
By Margaret Talev
McClatchy Newspapers
Posted: 05/13/2010 01:00:00 AM MDT


Sixty-one percent of Americans — and 64 percent of registered voters — said they favored the law in a survey of 1,016 adults conducted May 6-9.

Strikingly, nearly half of the Democrats polled liked the law, under which local law enforcement officers are tasked with verifying people's immigration status if they suspect them of being in the country illegally. While the Democratic Party generally is regarded as more sympathetic to the plight of illegal immigrants, 46 percent of Democrats said they favored the law for Arizona, and 49 percent said they'd favor the law's passage in their own states.

More than eight in 10 Republicans and 54 percent of independents polled favored the law.

In addition, about 69 percent of Americans said they wouldn't mind if police officers stopped them to ask for proof of citizenship or the legal right to be in the country; about 29 percent would mind, considering it a violation of their rights; and about 3 percent were unsure.

A separate Pew Research Center poll on the Arizona law released Wednesday found similar sentiments.

In the McClatchy-Ipsos poll, almost two-thirds of Americans polled said illegal immigration was a real problem that hurt the country; they were evenly split as to whether the jobs illegal immigrants take are ones Americans don't want.

The McClatchy-Ipsos poll had an margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3.07 percentage points for all those surveyed and 3.26 percentage points for registered voters.

The results speak to the political landmines that immigration policy presents for President Barack Obama and congressional Democrats. Obama has called the Arizona law misguided. The Justice Department is considering a lawsuit to block it, concerned about the implications for civil rights and for police, who might be diverted from basic public-safety tasks or find it harder to talk to potential witnesses in criminal investigations.

The poll results also illustrate the uphill battle that immigrant-rights activists face in pushing Congress to pass legislation that would pair tougher border enforcement — which is universally popular — with a path to citizenship for immigrants who are here now illegally.

While many Democratic politicians, including Obama, favor such so-called comprehensive legislation, they lack the bipartisan support needed to make it law.

Heading into this year's congressional elections, they also face an electorate that is sensitive to losing jobs or diverting services to undocumented workers because of the economic crisis.

The nonpartisan Pew survey found that 73 percent of Americans approve of requiring people to verify their legal status, and two-thirds support police detaining people who can't. Pew's survey of 994 adults also was conducted May 6-9.

The Pew survey identified an age gap — 45 percent of people younger than 30 approved of the Arizona law, while three-fourths of Americans 65 and older approved.

The Pew poll had a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 4 percentage points for the overall sample.


Damn those "classic right wing ideologues", like myself. Right?

wolverine
05-13-2010, 07:32 AM
I thought the Right was for free market solutions and minimal government? If their gonna talk the talk, they should walk the walk. You want a market forces solution?
Open the borders and let everyone, irrespective of place of birth, compete for jobs. Goverment is the problem. The market will solve all, don't ya know.

TailgateNut
05-13-2010, 07:42 AM
You're missing the point entirely. Thousands of American companies are able to stay in business solely because they pay illegals less than minimum wage.
Importing legal work would dramatically increase their payroll. You can whine about it all you want, but it's capitalism, the American Way.

So, according to you, these companies would fail if they would abide by the law.

Maybe I could stay in business if I hired a bunch of illegals. Great idea. I just need to falsify some documents, and bingo, all is well in LawLessLand.

Here's a little tidbit: Yesterday we bid a small project for a local municipality.

Our bid $280,000.00 (we were second), next highest bid $304,000.00 (a contractor who's been in business for just as long as we have), and the kicker. The winning bidder came in at $221,000.00.
Our bid number factored an 8% profit margin which puts the project "COST" at $257,600.00. Of that amount $42,000(+-) was our labor estimate.

The project materials, insurance, bonding fees, license fees, permits,.......make up what remains, which equals $215,600.00.

But there seems to be a way that this other vcontractor is able to build a project barely covering the material and mandetory fees.

I wonder who performs the labor?
Riddle me this: How do you think this other contractor operates to be able to

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-13-2010, 09:07 AM
LOL


FYI:
Most Americans polled like Arizona's immigration law
By Margaret Talev
McClatchy Newspapers
Posted: 05/13/2010 01:00:00 AM MDT


Sixty-one percent of Americans — and 64 percent of registered voters — said they favored the law in a survey of 1,016 adults conducted May 6-9.

Strikingly, nearly half of the Democrats polled liked the law, under which local law enforcement officers are tasked with verifying people's immigration status if they suspect them of being in the country illegally. While the Democratic Party generally is regarded as more sympathetic to the plight of illegal immigrants, 46 percent of Democrats said they favored the law for Arizona, and 49 percent said they'd favor the law's passage in their own states.

More than eight in 10 Republicans and 54 percent of independents polled favored the law.

In addition, about 69 percent of Americans said they wouldn't mind if police officers stopped them to ask for proof of citizenship or the legal right to be in the country; about 29 percent would mind, considering it a violation of their rights; and about 3 percent were unsure.

A separate Pew Research Center poll on the Arizona law released Wednesday found similar sentiments.

In the McClatchy-Ipsos poll, almost two-thirds of Americans polled said illegal immigration was a real problem that hurt the country; they were evenly split as to whether the jobs illegal immigrants take are ones Americans don't want.

The McClatchy-Ipsos poll had an margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3.07 percentage points for all those surveyed and 3.26 percentage points for registered voters.

The results speak to the political landmines that immigration policy presents for President Barack Obama and congressional Democrats. Obama has called the Arizona law misguided. The Justice Department is considering a lawsuit to block it, concerned about the implications for civil rights and for police, who might be diverted from basic public-safety tasks or find it harder to talk to potential witnesses in criminal investigations.

The poll results also illustrate the uphill battle that immigrant-rights activists face in pushing Congress to pass legislation that would pair tougher border enforcement — which is universally popular — with a path to citizenship for immigrants who are here now illegally.

While many Democratic politicians, including Obama, favor such so-called comprehensive legislation, they lack the bipartisan support needed to make it law.

Heading into this year's congressional elections, they also face an electorate that is sensitive to losing jobs or diverting services to undocumented workers because of the economic crisis.

The nonpartisan Pew survey found that 73 percent of Americans approve of requiring people to verify their legal status, and two-thirds support police detaining people who can't. Pew's survey of 994 adults also was conducted May 6-9.

The Pew survey identified an age gap — 45 percent of people younger than 30 approved of the Arizona law, while three-fourths of Americans 65 and older approved.

The Pew poll had a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 4 percentage points for the overall sample.


Damn those "classic right wing ideologues", like myself. Right?

Nowhere in the article you posted did anyone say something so absurdly black/white, as you constantly do. Therefore, your argument is a complete and utter failure. Shocking, I know.

And on top of your abject failure, you once again refuse to discuss the idea that cutting off the supply of jobs -- not throwing people out or building a fence or killing people at the border -- would be a more successful plan, long term.

Again. I'm completely shocked. Look at how shocked I am. This is my shocked face. I'm shocked.

Dedhed
05-13-2010, 09:18 AM
So, according to you, these companies would fail if they would abide by the law.


Yes, fail or raise their prices significantly.

GoBroncos DownUnder
05-13-2010, 07:28 PM
If it's too hard to enforce the LAW, you know what the cowards of most countries do?
They lobby to change the law.
It's the easy way out, the other stuff is too hard to deal with.

Sweet! :thumbsup:
24 hours an no-one disagrees with my thought that changing laws to make life easier and assist criminals makes you a coward!
Sounds like a fair summary of the mentality 'round here!

strafen
05-13-2010, 09:33 PM
From an email I've got today...


This should scare you....


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I guess they already finished their English homework!!!
Montebello High School in California
You will not see this heart-stopping photo on the front page of the NY Times, nor on the lead story of the major news networks.
The protestors at Montebello High School took the American flag off the school's flag pole and hung it upside down while putting up the Mexican flag over it. (*See pictures below*)
https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=2b5ecb41df&view=att&th=128922810251b39a&attid=0.3&disp=emb&zw


https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=2b5ecb41df&view=att&th=128922810251b39a&attid=0.4&disp=emb&zw


https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=2b5ecb41df&view=att&th=128922810251b39a&attid=0.5&disp=emb&zw


https://mail.google.com/mail/?ui=2&ik=2b5ecb41df&view=att&th=128922810251b39a&attid=0.6&disp=emb&zw

I predict this stunt will be the nail in the coffin of any guest-worker/amnesty plan on the table in Washington .. The image of the American flag subsumed to another and turned upside down on American soil is already spreading on Internet forums and via e-mail.

Pass this along to every American citizen in your address books and to every representative in the state and federal government.. If you choose to remain uninvolved, do not be amazed when you no longer have a nation to call your own nor anything you have worked for left since it will be 'redistributed' to the activists while you are so peacefully staying out of the 'fray'. Check history, it is full of nations/empires that disappeared when its citizens no longer held their core beliefs and values. One person CAN make a difference.
One plus one plus one plus one plus one plus one........ ..

The battle for our secure borders and immigration laws that actually mean something, however, hasn't even begun.
If this ticks YOU off...PASS IT ON! IF IT DOESN'T IT SHOULD!



















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TailgateNut
05-14-2010, 07:20 AM
http://www.gonzosgarage.net/world/montbello.html

Here's a link with the photos.

I'm sure "The moose" will think this is ok. It's just the American Flag being "spat on". No big deal? Right Moose?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-14-2010, 07:35 AM
http://www.gonzosgarage.net/world/montbello.html

Here's a link with the photos.

I'm sure "The moose" will think this is ok. It's just the American Flag being "spat on". No big deal? Right Moose?

Why would I think this is okay?

Oh, right. I get it. Because anyone who disagrees with your simple view of the world must be an anti-murrcan turrist who hates your freedom. Right TGN?

You have derailed.

Again: Shrill. It's absolutely impossible to have a discussion with someone who is so willfully ignorant.

ZOMG! High school students spit on the flag! They must be evil!

But if pure, white students wear an American flag on Cinco, they're just exercising their rights to free speech, and making a social commentary on the world around them.

/rolleyes

You are truly a waste of time.

TailgateNut
05-14-2010, 07:50 AM
Why would I think this is okay?

Oh, right. I get it. Because anyone who disagrees with your simple view of the world must be an anti-murrcan turrist who hates your freedom. Right TGN?

You have derailed.

Again: Shrill. It's absolutely impossible to have a discussion with someone who is so willfully ignorant.

ZOMG! High school students spit on the flag! They must be evil!

But if pure, white students wear an American flag on Cinco, they're just exercising their rights to free speech, and making a social commentary on the world around them.

/rolleyes

You are truly a waste of time.


**** you.
You are no better than those who **** on our flag and laugh at our laws. You say "ZOMG! High school students spit on the flag! They must be evil!" (no big deal in your anti-American mind) and then follow up with "But if pure, white students wear an American flag on Cinco, they're just exercising their rights to free speech, and making a social commentary on the world around them."(once again, we surely do not want to upset those Latinos who were given the opportunity to wear their colors).

Even if you don't consider the patriotic implications of their actions, it's still vandalism of public property/ state property. But we wouldn't want to upset those latinos who seem to think they can do as they please without consequence.

Que
05-14-2010, 10:10 AM
Just so everyone is aware, and I am pretty sure this wasn't their intention over at Montbello, but an upside down American flag is use to send the message "American in distress". One of my wingnut friends did that after the Obama election and I started in with the whole "that's unpatriotic!!!" thing and he said all he was trying to do was send a single of "American in distress". I looked it up and he was right.

Again, I am pretty sure that is not what they were trying to say at Montbello.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-14-2010, 10:16 AM
**** you.
You are no better than those who **** on our flag and laugh at our laws. You say "ZOMG! High school students spit on the flag! They must be evil!" (no big deal in your anti-American mind) and then follow up with "But if pure, white students wear an American flag on Cinco, they're just exercising their rights to free speech, and making a social commentary on the world around them."(once again, we surely do not want to upset those Latinos who were given the opportunity to wear their colors).

Even if you don't consider the patriotic implications of their actions, it's still vandalism of public property/ state property. But we wouldn't want to upset those latinos who seem to think they can do as they please without consequence.

And I'm STILL not anti-American.

And you're STILL shrill.

Grow up.

And for the record, the act of spitting on the flag is protected as free speech. Sorry bud, I know that rankles you, and while I don't support the act -- which I apparently must state again because you're too ****ing stupid to figure it out from all the other times I've said it -- I do support the right to free speech in this country.

It's the same right that allows you to call our President a Nazi. You should probably support it as well, but as usual, you're too much of a hypocrite to see five feet in front of your own ****ing face.

Que
05-14-2010, 10:25 AM
By the way, this was back in 2006.

TailgateNut
05-14-2010, 10:30 AM
Is it also freedom of speech to remove something from State/city property and "defacing it"?
Did the flag belong to them?
Did the flag pole belong to them?

This is all acceptable behavior according to you, but yet, you want others to believe you actually have patriotic blood cells in your body by rambling about the right of free speech. Amazing.

Dagmar
05-14-2010, 10:34 AM
Reading this, I am very glad I am legal!

Go USA!

http://napraticaateoriaeoutra.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Jasper-Johns-Flag.jpg

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-14-2010, 10:39 AM
Is it also freedom of speech to remove something from State/city property and "defacing it"?
Did the flag belong to them?
Did the flag pole belong to them?

This is all acceptable behavior according to you, but yet, you want others to believe you actually have patriotic blood cells in your body by rambling about the right of free speech. Amazing.

What are you rambling about, exactly? Do you know the details of permissions they were given by the school and/or city to have this rally and do these things? No. No you do not. So shut your trap.

The flag pole belongs up your stupid ass.

And for the 19th time: This is NOT "acceptable" behavior to me, no matter how many times you want to claim the opposite is true. When you can have a grown up discussion without making up bull**** to try and prove a point, we can talk. Until then, you're a waste of time and ****ing space.

I'll protect my right to free speech, thanks. But in doing so, I have to protect these kids' rights too.

Again: You're a hypocrite.

TailgateNut
05-14-2010, 11:29 AM
What are you rambling about, exactly? Do you know the details of permissions they were given by the school and/or city to have this rally and do these things? No. No you do not. So shut your trap.

The flag pole belongs up your stupid ass.

And for the 19th time: This is NOT "acceptable" behavior to me, no matter how many times you want to claim the opposite is true. When you can have a grown up discussion without making up bull**** to try and prove a point, we can talk. Until then, you're a waste of time and ****ing space.

I'll protect my right to free speech, thanks. But in doing so, I have to protect these kids' rights too.

Again: You're a hypocrite.


The details of permission by the school or city to have this rally and do these things? You are joking? Or maybe not, considering.....

"shut my trap"....and then "blah, blah, blah...right to free speech".....what a hypocrite YOU are.

Que
05-14-2010, 11:38 AM
Well, a wise man once said (and I am paraphrasing) you aren't really protecting freedoms and liberties until you a protecting the freedom or liberty for someone else to do something that you find morally repugnant. That's one reason that I like the ACLU because they will come to the defense of the freedom and liberty, not the agenda. I've watched them defend free speech for right wing white supremacists that would make Glen Beck blush and I have seen them defend pinko-commie socialists that would make Kieth Olbermann shake his head... and everything in between.

As morally reprehensible as I find the 2006 actions by those kids in CA, I have to support the freedom to do so. Anyone who doesn't - I directly question your commitment to freedom and the liberties on which this country was founded.

EDIT: which is why I support gun ownership rights - though, if it were up to me I would love to see the entire country free of guns. But it is the 2nd Amendment and as much as I happen to disagree with gun ownership, I will not tolerate the infringement of this right.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-14-2010, 11:47 AM
The details of permission by the school or city to have this rally and do these things? You are joking? Or maybe not, considering.....

"shut my trap"....and then "blah, blah, blah...right to free speech".....what a hypocrite YOU are.

nope. I'm not joking. You sound like a ****ing moron. Thought you might want to take that under consideration before you open your yap again and remove all doubt that you are, in fact, a ****ing moron.

You have the right to look like a ****ing moron though, and you clearly feel like exercising that right. Just like those brown kids in California.

ZOMG! You're the same as those brown kids in California!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-14-2010, 11:48 AM
Well, a wise man once said (and I am paraphrasing) you aren't really protecting freedoms and liberties until you a protecting the freedom or liberty for someone else to do something that you find morally repugnant. That's one reason that I like the ACLU because they will come to the defense of the freedom and liberty, not the agenda. I've watched them defend free speech for right wing white supremacists that would make Glen Beck blush and I have seen them defend pinko-commie socialists that would make Kieth Olbermann shake his head... and everything in between.

As morally reprehensible as I find the 2006 actions by those kids in CA, I have to support the freedom to do so. Anyone who doesn't - I directly question your commitment to freedom and the liberties on which this country was founded.

EDIT: which is why I support gun ownership rights - though, if it were up to me I would love to see the entire country free of guns. But it is the 2nd Amendment and as much as I happen to disagree with gun ownership, I will not tolerate the infringement of this right.

TGN, read Que's post.

Then once you think you've got it, read it again.

And then, when you think you've really got the gist of what's going on, read it one more time, slowly, just to make sure.

Then, if you're still capable of independent thought, pull your head out of your ass and realize the same freedoms that you enjoy, they enjoy, and infringing on ANYONE'S freedoms for a political ideology is not just idiotic, it's unconstitutional.

Dukes
05-14-2010, 12:01 PM
I can feel the love. Can't you?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-14-2010, 12:08 PM
I can feel the love. Can't you?

I did, but then I looked at your avy, and now I could not give a ****.

TailgateNut
05-14-2010, 12:12 PM
TGN, read Que's post.

Then once you think you've got it, read it again.

And then, when you think you've really got the gist of what's going on, read it one more time, slowly, just to make sure.

Then, if you're still capable of independent thought, pull your head out of your ass and realize the same freedoms that you enjoy, they enjoy, and infringing on ANYONE'S freedoms for a political ideology is not just idiotic, it's unconstitutional.


How about this? You go **** yourself. In one breath you talk about infringing on someones' freedoms is unconstitutional, but in another thread you support doing it to the white kids who wore the "red, white and blue" to school while others who wore Green, white and red to school recieved preferrential treatment.

You are FOS and a hypocrite.

Dukes
05-14-2010, 12:12 PM
I did, but then I looked at your avy, and now I could not give a ****.

Glad I could help ;D

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-14-2010, 12:42 PM
How about this? You go **** yourself. In one breath you talk about infringing on someones' freedoms is unconstitutional, but in another thread you support doing it to the white kids who wore the "red, white and blue" to school while others who wore Green, white and red to school recieved preferrential treatment.

You are FOS and a hypocrite.

There's the grown up I knew you were. Nice job, TGN!

TailgateNut: Fascism for all!

Also, since you can't read, you missed it: I NEVER SUPPORTED THE PRINCIPAL IN THAT SCHOOL IN CALIFORNIA. I NEVER SUPPORTED "DOING IT" TO WHITE KIDS. That's the reality you CHOOSE to see, the real world is something completely different.

Stop pigeonholing everyone you discuss anything with and have an honest discussion without making up bull****. Prove that you're a grown up.

Rohirrim
05-14-2010, 01:05 PM
There's the grown up I knew you were. Nice job, TGN!

TailgateNut: Fascism for all!

Also, since you can't read, you missed it: I NEVER SUPPORTED THE PRINCIPAL IN THAT SCHOOL IN CALIFORNIA. I NEVER SUPPORTED "DOING IT" TO WHITE KIDS. That's the reality you CHOOSE to see, the real world is something completely different.

Stop pigeonholing everyone you discuss anything with and have an honest discussion without making up bull****. Prove that you're a grown up.

Do you believe that:
- 12 million people (probably more) with very little, or generally no education at all, coming into this country in violation of our laws
- taking jobs that in the majority of cases would go to American citizens
- using services they cannot possibly pay for (hospital ERs, for example)
- using social services (especially in cases of "anchor" babies)
- burdening the education system with children who do not speak the language
- in many cases creating an underground economy
- using forged IDs, and creating an underground economy in forged documents
- sending a large part of the wages they earn back to their own country

is a good thing for America?

Should we do anything about it? Is is justified for us to do anything about it? Are immigration laws just?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-14-2010, 01:09 PM
Do you believe that:
- 12 million people (probably more) with very little, or generally no education at all, coming into this country in violation of our laws
- taking jobs that in the majority of cases would go to American citizens
- using services they cannot possibly pay for (hospital ERs, for example)
- using social services (especially in cases of "anchor" babies)
- burdening the education system with children who do not speak the language
- in many cases creating an underground economy
- using forged IDs, and creating an underground economy in forged documents
- sending a large part of the wages they earn back to their own country

is a good thing for America?

Should we do anything about it? Is is justified for us to do anything about it? Are immigration laws just?

I believe something must be done. I agree with you on that. Having the drain on our resources is not good.

But arresting people because they're lookin' a little too mexican is not the right way to go about this.

As I've said... I don't know, more times than I can count, on this very thread: Enforce the laws for employers who are giving jobs to these folks. Make it prohibitive to do so.

For the 10th time (at least): If there are jobs, people will come across the border to do them. Period.

I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand.

Edit: What I don't understand is why you quoted the above post when it had almost zero to do with what you asked me.

Rohirrim
05-14-2010, 01:22 PM
I believe something must be done. I agree with you on that. Having the drain on our resources is not good.

But arresting people because they're lookin' a little too mexican is not the right way to go about this.

As I've said... I don't know, more times than I can count, on this very thread: Enforce the laws for employers who are giving jobs to these folks. Make it prohibitive to do so.

For the 10th time (at least): If there are jobs, people will come across the border to do them. Period.

I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand.

Edit: What I don't understand is why you quoted the above post when it had almost zero to do with what you asked me.

Did I break a rule?

TailgateNut
05-14-2010, 01:28 PM
Did I break a rule?

If you're a legal citizen, you are breaking the rules!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-14-2010, 01:32 PM
If you're a legal citizen, you are breaking the rules!

:unamused: