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BroncoSojia
05-07-2010, 08:18 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncosheadlines/ci_15035778?source=rss&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter



Tim Tebow has IT.

Not if.

And he gets it.

So says Josh McDaniels.

"I think the thing about Tim is what everybody calls the 'It'. There are those kind of people that have that 'It,' " the coach said emphatically this week in his office at Dove Valley. On the wall beside McDaniels' desk is a large TV, and frozen on the flat screen was Tim Tebow, in his orange Broncos practice jersey with a football by his left ear a start button for throwing a pass.

McDaniels looks at the image of the Broncos' rookie quarterback and compares Tebow's "It" factor to another quarterback he directly coached for five seasons in New England.

"When Tom (Brady) came to us in 2001, I wasn't on the offensive side of the ball, but I can remember the feeling in the building was that he had something that nobody else had . . . and how strongly he felt that ultimately he would be a great player. It was obviously apparent in subsequent seasons.

"I think when you get a guy, and he's waiting for me to tell him he's going to be a great player, we might be waiting a long time," he said.

McDaniels respected the confidence Brady showed then and admires the confidence Tebow shows now.

"That confidence affects everybody," he said. "We could see it last week at rookie camp. There were a bunch of rookies out there with no confidence, except him. He's got such confidence that he will just not let himself fail.

"And that quality sometimes is very underrated. There are people with a great deal of God-given ability who are fun to watch, and it's really interesting to see what kind of seasons they'll put together. Then there are guys who will say they won't fail, our team's not going to fail, and they have a 'I'm not going to let you down' attitude. And that's what you notice with Tim."

NFL scouts, coaches and analysts offered two alarming criticisms about Tebow the quarterback: his long, looping delivery and his lack of arm strength.

McDaniels has no concern about either. The Monday before the draft, McDaniels and other members of the organization flew to Florida to decide if Tebow would be their man.

"We spent seven hours with him, and I came away thinking that everybody keeps talking about the thing I think we can fix that's my job as a coach and nobody's talking about the things we don't have to teach him because he already has all that.

"I was struck by his intelligence, the way he understands the game, how I can have a great football conversation with him. I didn't have to sit there and draw it up. I would say, 'If they do this, here's what I want you to do,' and he says, 'I got it, Coach.' "

McDaniels implies that Tebow could play quarterback for the Broncos sooner rather than later.

"To me, (Tebow's acumen) gives him an advantage, an opportunity to play earlier than other people have played. Everybody keeps talking about it will be two, three years before he can play, and I think they don't know this guy. His mental capacity, and the way that he works, and the fact that he's on such a fast pace, will give him the chance to compete apples-to-apples.

"It's all going to be about his production and performance. There are a lot of rookies who can't run plays because they can't figure it out yet. That's not going to be the case with Tim. He'll be able to do the things (veterans) do."

During that final visit with Tebow, the coach began to explain the Broncos' offensive terminology, and the quarterback picked it up immediately. When McDaniels quizzed the QB about defensive fronts, Tebow proved he could recognize every variation and how to respond.

"You know what Tim doesn't know about our playbook?" McDaniels asked, then answered. "Only what we haven't told him yet."

And when Tebow threw at his private workout, McDaniels knew he wanted to figure out a way to wheel and deal in the first round to get him.

In Florida and at rookie camp, Tebow "threw into the wind, with it, across it, and there were no issues," McDaniels said. When Tebow threw long, "he would be looking, looking, then stand up, without winding up and all that stuff, throw 60 yards, just like that. He's got a really strong arm."

McDaniels points his remote control at the television, and Tebow is brought to life. Back and forth, fast forward, rewind, the coach reveals the rookie's throwing motion.

The problem with his delivery, McDaniels said, was not as much the left arm action as the right side body reaction. Tebow's nonthrowing arm was flailing, and his right side was bailing out. He's corrected the throwing motion and cocked position, is releasing the ball quicker, and has eliminated the inaccurate sidearm passes. McDaniels had Tebow tuck his right elbow, straighten his shoulders and concentrate on forcing the "15" (on his jersey front) to fall off (figuratively) when he throws.

"See, he's doing it, after just a couple of days," McDaniels said, looking at the screen. "What's it going to be like after 65 practices? He gets it."

IT is happening with Tim Tebow.

Captain 'Dre
05-07-2010, 08:20 AM
Tebow impregnates Supermodels?!?!? Ha!

Smiling Assassin27
05-07-2010, 08:21 AM
i really hope mcd's not trying to convince himself, but instead truly considers tebow more than just 'a project'. all signs point to the former. getcha popcorn ready.

mizzoutigers
05-07-2010, 08:22 AM
merge

Man-Goblin
05-07-2010, 08:24 AM
His mistake was comparing Tebow to Brady when he should have been comparing Brady to Tebow.

broncswin
05-07-2010, 08:29 AM
His mistake was comparing Tebow to Brady when he should have been comparing Brady to Tebow.

nice:~ohyah!:

TheDave
05-07-2010, 08:30 AM
God help us if Tebow starts this year...

elsid13
05-07-2010, 08:32 AM
God help us if Tebow starts this year...

You going to lose your superfan card for this post. ;D

TheDave
05-07-2010, 08:39 AM
You going to lose your superfan card for this post. ;D

I'm good with the pick, and I think the kid has some real interesting qualities and significant upside... But I also think he is a 2-3 year project.

and Meck took away my fan card a long time ago... ROFL!

theAPAOps5
05-07-2010, 08:42 AM
God help us if Tebow starts this year...

Shouldn't it be:

Tebow help us if Tebow starts this year?

SonOfLe-loLang
05-07-2010, 08:43 AM
i really hope mcd's not trying to convince himself, but instead truly considers tebow more than just 'a project'. all signs point to the former. getcha popcorn ready.

How do all signs point to the former? You think he's lying to himself?

Br0nc0Buster
05-07-2010, 08:43 AM
Tebow = Brady + Adrian Peterson + concrete cyanide

SonOfLe-loLang
05-07-2010, 08:45 AM
I'm good with the pick, and I think the kid has some real interesting qualities and significant upside... But I also think he is a 2-3 year project.

and Meck took away my fan card a long time ago... ROFL!

I'm not quite sure why he has to be a 2-3 year project when thats more the mental side of the game. You think he's going to physically improve in 2-3 years? if he's picking up **** as easily as McD says he is, why would be need 2-3 years. This 2-3 years business just seems like something people say without any real reason behind it.

dbfan21
05-07-2010, 08:47 AM
Tebow has so much pressure on him already, I kinda don't like the fact he's being compared to 3-time champion Brady.

But I love everything else they've said about him!!

Can't wait for TC this year!!

crush17
05-07-2010, 08:49 AM
Hearing McD talk like this... it scares me. Starting a rookie QB this year...? please just give him at least one season to get used to the speed of the game. PLEASE.

TheDave
05-07-2010, 08:49 AM
I'm not quite sure why he has to be a 2-3 year project when thats more the mental side of the game. You think he's going to physically improve in 2-3 years? if he's picking up **** as easily as McD says he is, why would be need 2-3 years. This 2-3 years business just seems like something people say without any real reason behind it.

He's one of the winningest, most highly decorated college QB's ever... and he did this against SEC competition.

Yet 24 teams passed on him...

That tells me there is something to this "project" label he has.

mizzoutigers
05-07-2010, 08:51 AM
He's one of the winningest, most highly decorated college QB's ever... and he did this against SEC competition.

Yet 24 teams passed on him...

That tells me there is something to this "project" label he has.

agreed, but on the flip side look at the QBs taken early on that teams thought would be superstars and have busted, lot to be said about the system, coaching staff, and players surrounded by the guy

SonOfLe-loLang
05-07-2010, 08:55 AM
He's one of the winningest, most highly decorated college QB's ever... and he did this against SEC competition.

Yet 24 teams passed on him...

That tells me there is something to this "project" label he has.

This would make tons more sense if there were any rhyme or reason to draft success. Teams passed on Terrell Davis time and time again, yet he came right in and started as a rookie. So I'll ask again, what makes him a 2-3 project?

TheDave
05-07-2010, 08:56 AM
This would make tons more sense if there were any rhyme or reason to draft success. Teams passed on Terrell Davis time and time again, yet he came right in and started as a rookie. So I'll ask again, what makes him a 2-3 project?

Mechanics, accuracy, a run first mentality, and familiarity running a pro system...

Pseudofool
05-07-2010, 08:58 AM
God help us if Tebow starts this year...
That's almost guaranteed since Tebow is starting.

Taco John
05-07-2010, 08:58 AM
I like Tebow the person. I like Tebow the project. But all I can say is that I don't remember anyone with a slow, poor mechanic delivery ever coming into the NFL and finding any amount of long term success. Perhaps it's happened and I'm just being ignorant to it. But there's not a success story that immediately comes to mind.

Chris
05-07-2010, 09:00 AM
http://www.foxnomad.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/fasten-seat-belts.jpg

watermock
05-07-2010, 09:03 AM
He's one of the winningest, most highly decorated college QB's ever... and he did this against SEC competition.

Yet 24 teams passed on him...

That tells me there is something to this "project" label he has.

So was Colt.

He went 3rd and will shame TeeBow.

No big deal we traded for Quinn.

Go Beavis....

Colt will be starting october.

Pony Boy
05-07-2010, 09:07 AM
I just wish McD would give Tebow some time off to fix the stock market....

Cito Pelon
05-07-2010, 09:15 AM
Confidence is a huge deal. One of the rookies at the minicamp mentioned that TimTerriffic ;-) was showing leadership, bringing the rookies together.

Boy, McD does gush about Tebow. I can understand the resentment some people feel about this kid getting fawned over, teacher's pet, all that stuff. But Tebow knows the score, he's been the teacher's pet for a long time, he knows he has to earn the leadership position. Tebow I think does not have the illusion that he's gonna be given the team as his fiefdom, he's gonna work hard to earn the team's respect.

The Joker
05-07-2010, 09:16 AM
I doubt Tebow starts this year. It just doesn't make sense to rush him to me. He's working to improve the faults in his game and likely still will be for months yet. I'd rather he get a full year to put things in place so that his new motion is automatic before we ask him to go out there and pass the ball 30+ times a game.

The fact that we'll have certain packages designed for him to get him on the field should help in stopping the fans clamoring for him to be the starter, expect us to use him much like the Eagles did with Vick last year.

But, if he somehow does end up as the starter then one thing that will really help him is that he has never been one that'll try and force the ball in there when there's nobody open. We know that's something McDaniels values a lot, so maybe he'll feel he can tell Tebow something along the lines of "If neither of your first two reads get open, just tuck the ball down and try and run with it or just take the sack, we'll live to fight another series."

That's pretty much how Orton got to 6-0 last year, and obviously he was about as much threat to run the ball as some blind guy in a wheelchair would have been.

All in all though I think a year of being a special packages kind of guy is the way to go with him.

Houshyamama
05-07-2010, 09:26 AM
I'm good with the pick, and I think the kid has some real interesting qualities and significant upside... But I also think he is a 2-3 year project.

and Meck took away my fan card a long time ago... ROFL!

Why? because that's what everyone else says?

hambone13
05-07-2010, 09:30 AM
This would make tons more sense if there were any rhyme or reason to draft success. Teams passed on Terrell Davis time and time again, yet he came right in and started as a rookie. So I'll ask again, what makes him a 2-3 project?

If your optimism was called Tebow, we would have exponential success winning Superbowls in multiple dimensions where Mr. Spock was and always will be his friend.

Cito Pelon
05-07-2010, 09:30 AM
Lot of good quotes in that article:

"I think when you get a guy, and he's waiting for me to tell him he's going to be a great player, we might be waiting a long time"

Lot of truth in that quote. Either you know you got it, or you're a high-maintenance guy, a guy that needs constant ego-stroking. Coaches don't like high-maintenance players.

"That confidence affects everybody"

Sure does.

"And that quality sometimes is very underrated."

Sure is.

"It's all going to be about his production and performance."

SonOfLe-loLang
05-07-2010, 09:34 AM
If your optimism was called Tebow, we would have exponential success winning Superbowls in multiple dimensions where Mr. Spock was and always will be his friend.

I never said he'd be a success, im saying i dont understand the 2-3 year thing

hambone13
05-07-2010, 09:35 AM
Why? because that's what everyone else says?

What like all the people in Florida who are saying otherwise? It's equilaterally insignificant....

SonOfLe-loLang
05-07-2010, 09:35 AM
Mechanics, accuracy, a run first mentality, and familiarity running a pro system...

I dont understand why it would take 3 years for the mechanics to work themselves out. As far as familiarity of running a pro system, my comment was based on McD's claim that it comes to him naturally and the mental part of the game isnt an issue.

Cito Pelon
05-07-2010, 09:39 AM
I like Tebow the person. I like Tebow the project. But all I can say is that I don't remember anyone with a slow, poor mechanic delivery ever coming into the NFL and finding any amount of long term success. Perhaps it's happened and I'm just being ignorant to it. But there's not a success story that immediately comes to mind.

How about Kerry Collins, Jay Cutler, Eli Manning? Windup city with all those three. Randall Cunningham also. Pay attention, dude, we've discussed this many times.

The difference is Tebow right away is willing to put the work in to correct the flaws. Tebow is not one of the prima-donna QB's a coach has to get all touch-feely with, spend three hours stroking the QB's ego before he can point out a flaw.

TheDave
05-07-2010, 09:46 AM
I dont understand why it would take 3 years for the mechanics to work themselves out. As far as familiarity of running a pro system, my comment was based on McD's claim that it comes to him naturally and the mental part of the game isnt an issue.

Because he has been working on his mechanics since he was in highschool... Watch the espn piece they did on him in back at Nease.

While he is at the QB camps his mechanics look just like they do now (in practice). Then he gets into the games and the big wind up comes back.

This is something he has been dealing with for a long time, so expecting it to fix itself in a couple of months is unrealistic.

TheReverend
05-07-2010, 09:47 AM
Posted my bragging in another thread, but can never do enough showing off:

The problem with his delivery, McDaniels said, was not as much the left arm action as the right side body reaction. Tebow's nonthrowing arm was flailing, and his right side was bailing out. He's corrected the throwing motion and cocked position, is releasing the ball quicker, and has eliminated the inaccurate sidearm passes. McDaniels had Tebow tuck his right elbow, straighten his shoulders and concentrate on forcing the "15" (on his jersey front) to fall off (figuratively) when he throws.

Ahem:

Tim's different, to say the least... He definitely CAN have the strongest arm in the bunch, he just has an awkward wind up (it's a ridiculously big wind up which has caused the "slow release" scouting complaints, etc) and he kinda flails his body into it too. It's really funny how he's managed to make it work for him honestly.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2828984&postcount=22

He's addressing the remnants of the patented Tim Tebow body flail in his release.

This is a fantastic video... getting so much better SO fast.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2830121&postcount=42

Nicely done, Josh. ^5

TheReverend
05-07-2010, 09:48 AM
Because he has been working on his mechanics since he was in highschool... Watch the espn piece they did on him in back at Nease.

While he is at the QB camps his mechanics look just like they do now (in practice). Then he gets into the games and the big wind up comes back.

This is something he has been dealing with for a long time, so expecting it to fix itself in a couple of months is unrealistic.

Na, that's not true. I've got a video of him practicing a year ago where it's just downright horrid.

TheDave
05-07-2010, 09:54 AM
Na, that's not true. I've got a video of him practicing a year ago where it's just downright horrid.

Watch at 2 min... not perfect but night and day better than what we usually saw at Florida.

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outdoor_miner
05-07-2010, 09:58 AM
Boy, McD does gush about Tebow. I can understand the resentment some people feel about this kid getting fawned over, teacher's pet, all that stuff.

That was my thought, as well. I read that article and cringed a bit... It's understandable, but McD sure isn't doing guys like Orton and Quinn any favors with this kind of talk. It's not the night after the draft where you can gush about your new toy... He now needs to manage all his QBs, and that interview seemed a little over the top. McD is clearly excited.

I know Orton and Quinn are professionals (and should not let it affect them), but I hope we don't have a Plummer/Cutler situation. Orton seems a little less emotional than Jake, so hopefully he just keeps working...

TheReverend
05-07-2010, 09:58 AM
Watch at 2 min... not perfect but night and day better than what we usually saw at Florida.

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He's not winding up at his thighs, but watch closer. He's practically falling over leaning into the throws.

oubronco
05-07-2010, 09:59 AM
Oh Good Grief

Tebow hasn't even taken a snap in the NFL and he's compared to Brady

colonelbeef
05-07-2010, 10:05 AM
"Chris Simms is ready to step in if we need him"

-Josh McDaniels

I'd take what Josh McDaniels has to say about QBs with a grain of salt.

55CrushEm
05-07-2010, 10:11 AM
"Chris Simms is ready to step in if we need him"

-Josh McDaniels

I'd take what Josh McDaniels has to say about QBs with a grain of salt.

Wow. Now you're reaching. Implying that Josh doesn't know much about QB's because of Simms? Give me a break.....

He coached up Brady.
He coached up Cassel.
He coached up Orton.

I'd say he has a damn good understanding of the QB position. But you go ahead, and keep on hatin'.....

SonOfLe-loLang
05-07-2010, 10:14 AM
Because he has been working on his mechanics since he was in highschool... Watch the espn piece they did on him in back at Nease.

While he is at the QB camps his mechanics look just like they do now (in practice). Then he gets into the games and the big wind up comes back.

This is something he has been dealing with for a long time, so expecting it to fix itself in a couple of months is unrealistic.

And has had nothing but success. I still say the 2-3 year thing is more mental, and if thats his strength, then i dont understand the real problem. I just think the 2-3 year thing is something people say.

hambone13
05-07-2010, 10:16 AM
I dont understand why it would take 3 years for the mechanics to work themselves out. As far as familiarity of running a pro system, my comment was based on McD's claim that it comes to him naturally and the mental part of the game isnt an issue.

Whatever, you always roll into the conversation with McD's nuts balls deep and then try and act like you're objective. It's never been said that any QB is going to walk into the NFL game, his first year and make a significant impact. It's almost always said that a QB in his second year has a ton of slack for his mistakes when they make them....hence in a QB's 3rd year starting or not....are expected to be ready.

The sad thing is, you will regurgitate the same logic in another thread as long as it's not critical of the current regime. Pathetic.

SonOfLe-loLang
05-07-2010, 10:21 AM
Whatever, you always roll into the conversation with McD's nuts balls deep and then try and act like you're objective. It's never been said that any QB is going to walk into the NFL game, his first year and make a significant impact. It's almost always said that a QB in his second year has a ton of slack for his mistakes when they make them....hence in a QB's 3rd year starting or not....are expected to be ready.

The sad thing is, you will regurgitate the same logic in another thread as long as it's not critical of the current regime. Pathetic.

No, its called being a rational person, asshole, and deferring to people with a lot more expertise than i have (instead half the assholes on this board who think they know better).

I like McD, but have been critical of him, though im not outwardly vocal about it, just like im not outwardly vocal in support of him, but I'll defer to him on football matters since he's spent his life doing it and I have not.

And i don't even understand your point. Each quarterback is different. If this magical 2-3 year grace period had any creedence, then ALL QB's would be good in their 2nd to 3rd year. Obviously, experience counts for something, and experience is gained during this period, but this "sit him for 2-3 years while he learns is something people just say for no real reason." If he truly has a grasp of the mental part of the game, then it shouldn't take him 2-3 years to be ready. He's either gonna show signs of being a good QB right away or show signs of being complete crap right away.

BlaK-Argentina
05-07-2010, 10:24 AM
We WILL see Tebow starting at some point this year, I think. McD just can't help it. It's the Cutler situation all over again unless Orton or Quinn are tearing it up.

Ray Finkle
05-07-2010, 10:31 AM
We WILL see Tebow starting at some point this year, I think. McD just can't help it. It's the Cutler situation all over again unless Orton or Quinn are tearing it up.

I think Quinn is going to surprise many people with his level of play.

Beantown Bronco
05-07-2010, 10:35 AM
I think Quinn is going to surprise many people with his level of play.

Just those that think he's anything other than what we've seen so far. :)

TheDave
05-07-2010, 10:36 AM
And has had nothing but success. I still say the 2-3 year thing is more mental, and if thats his strength, then i dont understand the real problem. I just think the 2-3 year thing is something people say.

He had success running a spread-option attack... Not quite an NFL offense.

Point is mechanics and accuracy are not as important when you only throw half of the time.

There is a reason why everyone not posting on a broncos message board says this guy is a project... The constant and overwhelming opinion of all the "experts" is that he will take some time to work out the flaws in his game. What is so bad or unrealistic about him starting in 2012 or 2013?

SonOfLe-loLang
05-07-2010, 10:42 AM
He had success running a spread-option attack... Not quite an NFL offense.

Point is mechanics and accuracy are not as important when you only throw half of the time.

There is a reason why everyone not posting on a broncos message board says this guy is a project... The constant and overwhelming opinion of all the "experts" is that he will take some time to work out the flaws in his game. What is so bad or unrealistic about him starting in 2012 or 2013?

I understand your points and i know he didnt run an NFL offense, again, this is the mental part of the game. I'm working under the assumption that McD is correct and that he can successfully grasp the NFL offense quicker than most. If this is, in fact, true, then there's no reason to think he couldn't step in and play quicker.

But i'd put more creedence into what prognosticators say if, you know, they were consistently right. Which they aren't.

Houshyamama
05-07-2010, 10:42 AM
What like all the people in Florida who are saying otherwise? It's equilaterally insignificant....

Yeah, I suppose that's what I was trying to say. No one has a clue how Tebow will play this year.

AlienBronco
05-07-2010, 10:42 AM
Bill Walsh+Jake Plummer the next Montana, just remembered a hall of fame coach comparing another great college QB to a hall of fame QB, just saying.

TheDave
05-07-2010, 10:44 AM
I understand your points and i know he didnt run an NFL offense, again, this is the mental part of the game. I'm working under the assumption that McD is correct and that he can successfully grasp the NFL offense quicker than most. If this is, in fact, true, then there's no reason to think he couldn't step in and play quicker.

But i'd put more creedence into what prognosticators say if, you know, they were consistently right. Which they aren't.

No one is constantly right about anything that has to do with the draft... including McD.

So by your logic we shouldn't defer to any of them... including McD

SonOfLe-loLang
05-07-2010, 10:46 AM
No one is constantly right about anything that has to do with the draft... including McD.

So by your logic we shouldn't defer to any of them... including McD

I'll defer to McD because his track record with Quarterbacks is pretty damn good and he's already spent significant time with Tebow, more time than any other NFL coach.

SonOfLe-loLang
05-07-2010, 10:48 AM
And again, im not saying Tebow will be a star (i personally think he'll be good and im not betting against him), the whole point of my argument was the 2-3 year window that people casually throw out is just talk. Not all QB's learning curves are the same and, say what you want about Tebow, he seems to have a special desire and acumen for the game

hambone13
05-07-2010, 11:04 AM
No, its called being a rational person, a-hole, and deferring to people with a lot more expertise than i have (instead half the a-holes on this board who think they know better).

I like McD, but have been critical of him, though im not outwardly vocal about it, just like im not outwardly vocal in support of him, but I'll defer to him on football matters since he's spent his life doing it and I have not.

And i don't even understand your point. Each quarterback is different. If this magical 2-3 year grace period had any creedence, then ALL QB's would be good in their 2nd to 3rd year. Obviously, experience counts for something, and experience is gained during this period, but this "sit him for 2-3 years while he learns is something people just say for no real reason." If he truly has a grasp of the mental part of the game, then it shouldn't take him 2-3 years to be ready. He's either gonna show signs of being a good QB right away or show signs of being complete crap right away.

Well at least you've finally said what you mean. A breath of fresh air really.

Rohirrim
05-07-2010, 11:06 AM
I just wanted to try out my new avatar.

SonOfLe-loLang
05-07-2010, 11:08 AM
Well at least you've finally said what you mean. A breath of fresh air really.

Keep insulting my intelligence. I love irony.

hambone13
05-07-2010, 11:16 AM
Keep insulting my intelligence. I love irony.

I don't doubt your intelligence precious. It's obvious you're pretty bright actually. I doubt your love affair with the McD Kool-Aid. He still has a lot to prove. If you were displaying objectivity you would be more vocal about your doubts and join the rational members of the group who aren't chugging hoodie Kool-Aid.

mizzoutigers
05-07-2010, 11:17 AM
I just wanted to try out my new avatar.

rainbowesqe just like you:rofl:

Taco John
05-07-2010, 11:24 AM
How about Kerry Collins, Jay Cutler, Eli Manning? Windup city with all those three. Randall Cunningham also. Pay attention, dude, we've discussed this many times.




Maybe Kerry Collins, but it's not like he achieved wild success. Cutler didn't really have a slow release, he just throws on his back foot a lot. Eli Manning's release wasn't particularly slow either - it certainly never looked anything like Tebow's massive wind-up and release. Randal Cunningham's release wasn't slow so much as he was indecisive.

I think you should be the one who pays more close attention.

SonOfLe-loLang
05-07-2010, 11:26 AM
I don't doubt your intelligence precious. It's obvious you're pretty bright actually. I doubt your love affair with the McD Kool-Aid. He still has a lot to prove. If you were displaying objectivity you would be more vocal about your doubts and join the rational members of the group who aren't chugging hoodie Kool-Aid.

I'm not overly vocal either way. I've remained optimisitcally objective and feel McD can do the job. I've questioned some of his moves (i didnt understand the A. Smith selection/trade, but figured it was monetarily motivated and I didn't understand why Hillis didn't play more...but im not one of those people who was all ZOMG HILLIS). I think McD is a motivated, smart guy and have faith in his future. So now becaue i'm supportive, im chugging hoodie kool aid? Why is everything so black and white?

55CrushEm
05-07-2010, 11:29 AM
I don't doubt your intelligence precious. It's obvious you're pretty bright actually. I doubt your love affair with the McD Kool-Aid. He still has a lot to prove. If you were displaying objectivity you would be more vocal about your doubts and join the rational members of the group who aren't chugging hoodie Kool-Aid.

Or you could be LESS vocal of your hatred of McD (simply b/c you're butthurt over the absence of Shanny and Cutler) and join the group that, while not "drinking the Kool-Aid", is willing to give McD more than one year to prove himself.

mr007
05-07-2010, 11:37 AM
Honestly I am pretty damn excited about this year. I haven't heard McD talk this openly and honestly quite so excited about anyone on the roster yet, if Tebow is impressing him this much, I'm sold for now and really want to see what it translates to on the field.

Last year was difficult from my perspective seeing Cutler, Goodmans, etc all go when I was excited about our roster and how McD was going to improve Jay as a QB. Now that level of excitement is back, the season can't come fast enough!

Pseudofool
05-07-2010, 11:41 AM
There is a reason why everyone not posting on a broncos message board says this guy is a project... The constant and overwhelming opinion of all the "experts" is that he will take some time to work out the flaws in his game. What is so bad or unrealistic about him starting in 2012 or 2013? Tebow, by all accounts, has uncanny coachability. I imagine his ability to take what he learns from the film room and from conversations with coaches and apply that to the field is very high. By all accounts, Tebow is also absurdly dedicated. Learning takes repetition, and Tebow's going to have no trouble getting his reps in.

However much his mechanic needed to be overhauled, Tebow's coachability and dedication will greatly reduce the learning curve, I think by many factors. Having an articulate coach like McDaniels will only speed things along.

Dogsweat
05-07-2010, 11:47 AM
I am hoping Tebow is more like Steve Young in his play......

Ambiguous
05-07-2010, 11:48 AM
I just wanted to try out my new avatar.

I just want to speak for the group and say thanks.

TheDave
05-07-2010, 11:52 AM
Tebow, by all accounts, has uncanny coachability. I imagine his ability to take what he learns from the film room and from conversations with coaches and apply that to the field is very high. By all accounts, Tebow is also absurdly dedicated. Learning takes repetition, and Tebow's going to have no trouble getting his reps in.

However much his mechanic needed to be overhauled, Tebow's coachability and dedication will greatly reduce the learning curve, I think by many factors. Having an articulate coach like McDaniels will only speed things along.

Tebow and his absurdly dedicated, uncanny coachability, almighty self has been working on these mechanical issues since highschool...

What makes you think that all of a sudden he is going to fix everything real quick?

Beantown Bronco
05-07-2010, 11:55 AM
Tebow and his absurdly dedicated, uncanny coachability, almighty self has been working on these mechanical issues since highschool...

What makes you think that all of a sudden he is going to fix everything real quick?

Look at what Prater did in just one season. He was simply a kickoff guy before he got here and was a mess with his fg attempts. No technique. No consistency. Poor fg %.

TheDave
05-07-2010, 11:58 AM
Look at what Prater did in just one season. He was simply a kickoff guy before he got here and was a mess with his fg attempts. No technique. No consistency. Poor fg %.


Prater had been working on his mechanics since HS?

montrose
05-07-2010, 12:03 PM
Prater had been working on his mechanics since HS?

Prater's improvement = Lonnie Paxton's arrival

Just saying... :yayaya:

TheDave
05-07-2010, 12:06 PM
Prater's improvement = Lonnie Paxton's arrival

Just saying... :yayaya:

Maybe that's where all the tebow optimism comes in... not that he is super cool and all coachable like, but the reality is people are jazzed to get tebow and paxton on the same team.

;D

Beantown Bronco
05-07-2010, 12:06 PM
Prater had been working on his mechanics since HS?

Maybe. Maybe he just needed the right coach.

TheDave
05-07-2010, 12:09 PM
Maybe. Maybe he just needed the right coach.

Wow... compelling argument. Hilarious!

Beantown Bronco
05-07-2010, 12:11 PM
Wow... compelling argument. Hilarious!

What am I supposed to say? Unless there's some in depth biography about him out there that I'm not aware of, it's not like the high school and college coaching history of a kicker gets much pub.

TheDave
05-07-2010, 12:15 PM
What am I supposed to say? Unless there's some in depth biography about him out there that I'm not aware of, it's not like the high school and college coaching history of a kicker gets much pub.

You compared the two players... I figured you had some knowledge the rest of us didn't.

Guess not...

Beantown Bronco
05-07-2010, 12:17 PM
You compared the two players... I figured you had some knowledge the rest of us didn't.

Guess not...

What other knowledge do I need here? It's common sense. Prater is a kicker. He has one job. Don't you think it's common sense that he's been working on his mechanics since high school, considering it's his one and only job?

OBF1
05-07-2010, 12:34 PM
And again, im not saying Tebow will be a star (i personally think he'll be good and im not betting against him), the whole point of my argument was the 2-3 year window that people casually throw out is just talk. Not all QB's learning curves are the same and, say what you want about Tebow, he seems to have a special desire and acumen for the game

How did Jamarcus do in years 2 and 3 ??? Forget this 2-3 crap, if he is ready come the start of the season, so be it.

Mogulseeker
05-07-2010, 12:40 PM
How do all signs point to the former? You think he's lying to himself?

Former and latter have different meanings.

Drek
05-07-2010, 12:41 PM
God help us if Tebow starts this year...

What if we open up with the wildcat?

As to your questions of Tebow's ability to improve:

1. never been given the luxury of not playing while fixing issues. Hard to do something that causes short term failure no matter the long term benefits when your team is counting on you.

2. Many of his issues in college where grossly overblown. They just fall all to **** if he has pressure or throws on the run. That stems from a lack of time installing the changes to his game.

3. McDaniels is by far the most proven/capable coach he's ever worked with.

Tebow doesn't need to be the franchise from day one. He's going to get game reps running McDaniels' variation of the wildcat/wild horses formation while working on his mechanics. We'll get to see in real game situations how the changes hold up. That will ultimately determine when he starts as the base offense QB.

TheDave
05-07-2010, 12:42 PM
What other knowledge do I need here? It's common sense. Prater is a kicker. He has one job. Don't you think it's common sense that he's been working on his mechanics since high school, considering it's his one and only job?

Sorry but I don't see the similiarity between the static job that kickers do and the dynamic requirements of the QB position... On top of that, you have no idea about praters history (nor the specifics of his mechanical issues) but you are comparing his struggles to Tebows...

None of what you are saying makes any sense.

extralife
05-07-2010, 12:46 PM
Christ, this reminds me of Shanahan comparing Griese to Montana. Lets wait for the dude to see the field, eh coach?

I think he threw all the other rookies under the bus a bit too. :(

TheDave
05-07-2010, 12:47 PM
What if we open up with the wildcat?

As to your questions of Tebow's ability to improve:

1. never been given the luxury of not playing while fixing issues. Hard to do something that causes short term failure no matter the long term benefits when your team is counting on you.

2. Many of his issues in college where grossly overblown. They just fall all to **** if he has pressure or throws on the run. That stems from a lack of time installing the changes to his game.

3. McDaniels is by far the most proven/capable coach he's ever worked with.

Tebow doesn't need to be the franchise from day one. He's going to get game reps running McDaniels' variation of the wildcat/wild horses formation while working on his mechanics. We'll get to see in real game situations how the changes hold up. That will ultimately determine when he starts as the base offense QB.

Thats my entire point... Don't rush him and make him start right away.

Now you just need to convince some of the other posters on this thread that he isn't ready.

Beantown Bronco
05-07-2010, 12:48 PM
Sorry but I don't see the similiarity between the static job that kickers do and the dynamic requirements of the QB position....

Neither do I. Luckily that's not what we're debating. We're only debating the improvement of mechanics over time. Whether it's kicking motion or throwing motion. Nothing more. Nothing less. We're not comparing job responsibilities. Obviously, their jobs are VERY different.

On top of that, you have no idea about praters history (nor the specifics of his mechanical issues) but you are comparing his struggles to Tebows... .

No idea? Check his college stats and his NFL stats prior to his first full year as the field goal kicker in Denver. There were several articles out after his improvements where he specifically cited the coaching he received in Denver which he attributed to his improved mechanics and accuracy in field goal kicking. That is what I'm talking about.

None of what you are saying makes any sense.

It all makes sense.

TheDave
05-07-2010, 12:53 PM
Neither do I. Luckily that's not what we're debating. We're only debating the improvement of mechanics over time. Whether it's kicking motion or throwing motion. Nothing more. Nothing less. We're not comparing job responsibilities. Obviously, their jobs are VERY different.





Improving a golf swing is very similiar to what a kicker goes through. He is in a static environment where everything he does before and after is fairly controlled.

A QB is night and day different. That's one of the reasons why he looks one way in practice and another in live games.


The problem is there mechanical defencencies (if prater actually has any) are very different and will require significantly different steps to improve them.

snowspot66
05-07-2010, 12:56 PM
High school coaches rarely know what to do. College coaches get paid to recruit and win. Tebow won. I doubt his coaches cared what he did. Especially since they could only have him for four years anyway. Both high school and college have very limited numbers of hours allowed to work on stuff.

It seems very possible that he's had limited coaching on any of this stuff.

If it was any different then why do so many QB prospects get dinged for their mechanics when the draft comes around?

NFLBRONCO
05-07-2010, 12:59 PM
Tebow will start when the lord says so.

Pseudofool
05-07-2010, 01:02 PM
Tebow and his absurdly dedicated, uncanny coachability, almighty self has been working on these mechanical issues since highschool...

What makes you think that all of a sudden he is going to fix everything real quick?The snark is lame and easy, so lay off the douche pedal. I think whatever mechanical problems he's been working while in college, evidently, didn't affect his on field play, so the need to "work" on them was mitigated. There's incentive to change his mechanics now, and like I said, having McD as coach just greases the wheels.

TheDave
05-07-2010, 01:07 PM
The snark is lame and easy, so lay off the douche pedal. I think whatever mechanical problems he's been working while in college, evidently, didn't affect his on field play, so the need to "work" on them was mitigated. There's incentive to change his mechanics now, and like I said, having McD as coach just greases the wheels.

using your words is "Snark" and I need to layoff the douche pedal... :rofl:

SonOfLe-loLang
05-07-2010, 01:12 PM
Former and latter have different meanings.

i know that, i dont think he does

outdoor_miner
05-07-2010, 01:26 PM
I think whatever mechanical problems he's been working while in college, evidently, didn't affect his on field play, so the need to "work" on them was mitigated. There's incentive to change his mechanics now, and like I said, having McD as coach just greases the wheels.

This is exactly why I'm optimistic that things can change pretty quickly.

If a player is having tremendous success doing something one way, what is the motivation to change it, especially for a coach like Urban Meyer, who continued to win National Championships with Tebow throwing like he does. I mean - we're not just talking about a guy who was doing ok. We're talking about (arguably) the best player in the nation. Changing his throwing motion isn't exactly priority #1 for anyone when you are focused on winning.

Let's say for the sake of argument that Orton and Quinn get hurt in preseason, and Tebow is forced to play early. Let's say that he comes in and starts dominating games, while still having his awkward throwing motion... He's running, leading the team, and throwing the ball "good enough". Would anyone be clamoring for him to "fix" his delivery and become a better drop back passer? Of course not. The point is to win, and he has done that at every level. I'm sure his coaches would try to fix his mechanics, but would it really be their focus? Maybe at the NFL level, they WOULD be more concerned. However, Urban Meyer has Tebow for 4 years, and then he moves on to the next level. It just doesn't seem there would be any urgency...

Anyway - I don't see any reason to believe that he can't fix things, given a year to totally focus on his delivery.

Pseudofool
05-07-2010, 01:58 PM
using your words is "Snark" and I need to layoff the douche pedal... :rofl:
???

hambone13
05-07-2010, 02:24 PM
I'm not overly vocal either way. I've remained optimisitcally objective and feel McD can do the job. I've questioned some of his moves (i didnt understand the A. Smith selection/trade, but figured it was monetarily motivated and I didn't understand why Hillis didn't play more...but im not one of those people who was all ZOMG HILLIS). I think McD is a motivated, smart guy and have faith in his future. So now becaue i'm supportive, im chugging hoodie kool aid? Why is everything so black and white?

I don't think it's black and white at all. Many of this boards most consistent contributors are "kool-aid" types who IMO tend to seek out and and feed on anything even remotely positive, that they possibly can and drive it down the throats of those of us that remain a bit skeptical b/c of the magnitude of drama that the McD has created with his regime. He's playin' the role like he has a mirror mirror on the wall crystal ball that's telling him he's the fairest of them all. His passion, confidence and intensity are growing on me. I think he's a spectacular evangelist of said qualities and a saintly character seeker which is idealistically exciting but it almost seems overly faith based rather than reality based. Hence my apprehension, balance is a necessity.

The tone of your posts, like many others just strike me as joining the cult too early by force of charisma. Charisma is a necessity in a leader but so are judgment, objectivity and people management skills, all of which are questionable at this point. I'm not sold on the idea that an NFL team can be built on character and charisma alone. We need talent and people management skills as well.

Don't take offense to the name calling and "man-jabs", I'm a dude, I like to **** w/ people but I'll give ya a hug if ya need one. :wave:

Mogulseeker
05-07-2010, 02:55 PM
Oh, by the way... I compare myself to Tom Brady. Except that I'm better looking and have a strong arm.

baja
05-07-2010, 03:18 PM
I'm good with the pick, and I think the kid has some real interesting qualities and significant upside... <b>But I also think he is a 2-3 year project.

and Meck took away my fan card a long time ago... ROFL!

See this is what gets me, how on God's green earth could you know how long it will take to develop Tebow.

It is not possible to know such a thing, not by you not by anyone.

baja
05-07-2010, 03:19 PM
i'm not quite sure why he has to be a 2-3 year project when thats more the mental side of the game. You think he's going to physically improve in 2-3 years? If he's picking up **** as easily as mcd says he is, why would be need 2-3 years. <b>this 2-3 years business just seems like something people say without any real reason behind it.


this

epicSocialism4tw
05-07-2010, 03:22 PM
I like Tebow the person. I like Tebow the project. But all I can say is that I don't remember anyone with a slow, poor mechanic delivery ever coming into the NFL and finding any amount of long term success. Perhaps it's happened and I'm just being ignorant to it. But there's not a success story that immediately comes to mind.

Favre, Kosar...off the top of my head.

baja
05-07-2010, 03:23 PM
Tebow has so much pressure on him already, I kinda don't like the fact he's being compared to 3-time champion Brady.

But I love everything else they've said about him!!

Can't wait for TC this year!!

What I don't like is McD making his feelings on this public. No good can come of it and it's not something Orton, Quinn or Tebow needs to hear.

baja
05-07-2010, 03:25 PM
Mechanics, accuracy, a run first mentality, and familiarity running a pro system...

All that was addressed in a bold way in the OP.

broncosteven
05-07-2010, 03:25 PM
..."When Tom (Brady) came to us in 2001, I wasn't on the offensive side of the ball, but I can remember the feeling in the building was that he had something that nobody else had . . . and how strongly he felt that ultimately he would be a great player. It was obviously apparent in subsequent seasons.

"I think when you get a guy, and he's waiting for me to tell him he's going to be a great player, we might be waiting a long time," he said.

McDaniels respected the confidence Brady showed then and admires the confidence Tebow shows now.
....

Old Boss same as the new Boss.

This is like Shanny comparing Griese to Montana or Q to Barry Sanders...

baja
05-07-2010, 03:27 PM
So was Colt.

He went 3rd and will shame TeeBow.

No big deal we traded for Quinn.

Go Beavis....

Colt will be starting october.

Now I am certain Tebow will make the pro bowl this season.

TheDave
05-07-2010, 03:28 PM
All that was addressed in a bold way in the OP.

and you think he can fix all of those things and be ready to start in 4 months?

baja
05-07-2010, 03:34 PM
and you think he can fix all of those things and be ready to start in 4 months?

Normally no but in Tebow's case I do not know and neither do you

TheDave
05-07-2010, 03:36 PM
Normally no but in Tebow's case I do not know and neither do you

Exactly... thats why people are discussing.

SureShot
05-07-2010, 03:37 PM
McD likes Tebow because he promised him he would part any Gatorade poured on him after big wins.

Kaylore
05-07-2010, 03:46 PM
Tebow and his absurdly dedicated, uncanny coachability, almighty self has been working on these mechanical issues since highschool...

What makes you think that all of a sudden he is going to fix everything real quick?

I'll preface this by saying that I agree with your general point in that Tebow starting is likely bad news for the Broncos.

His delivery in general and his throwing motion in particular have not been worked on since High School. It was never addressed because he was so good that they didn't focus on it. You might say "why not work on it to be a better draft prospect?" And the answer is no one does that.

It's the same reason some lineman drafted to play OLB in a 3-4 suck in coverage and many corners suck at playing zone. They are things you don't even really use in college. You don't work on things that aren't a problem in college just to elevate your draft stock. There's not enough time between classes, learning the playbook and the limited amount of practice time colleges are afforded. Tebow's throwing motion was (obviously) not a detriment to his college game and therefore the least of his or Florida's worries.

He only recently started "working on it" to help make himself more pro ready. So my point is this isn't some bad habit he's been unable to break. It's a something he hasn't worked on as it wasn't a point of emphasis and he has shown the ability to adjust to it. He has the work ethic to get it sorted out. And I just go back to the fact that slow releases are pretty overrated in terms of how much it hurts a QB. Elway slapped the ball every single time he threw adding a huge amount of time to his release and also tipping off defenders when it was coming. There were probably times that it hurt him, but every player has a weakness. Similarly, Byron Leftwich and Kerry Collins' javelin throw wasn't why they sucked. They sucked because they weren't great passers.

BlaK-Argentina
05-07-2010, 03:49 PM
Is Tebow's delivery that much slower than Rivers'? Does it affect his accuracy that much?

Drek
05-07-2010, 05:20 PM
Thats my entire point... Don't rush him and make him start right away.

Now you just need to convince some of the other posters on this thread that he isn't ready.

Eh, who cares what they think? Tebow will start when McDaniels thinks he's ready.

What I'm expecting is this:

We start the season with Orton as the #1 and Quinn as #2 unless Quinn grossly outplays Orton in camp and pre-season. Brandstater has a chance to take either job, but its a long shot. Tebow will be featured for one or two possessions a game running the wildcat, along with a few situational plays as well (red zone for example). Tebow's usage will be adjusted according to how those opportunities go.

In an ideal world Tebow tears it up and displays appropriate throwing mechanics early on when playing in his wildcat role. At that point McDaniels will start to mix in some of the base offense on a limited basis.

If after that Tebow is handling the additional base offense well then he'll begin to see possessions where he runs a modified version of the base offense to take advantage of his skills (something between Florida's spread option and McD's own spread offense featured in NE).

He only becomes the full time starter in year one if he's tearing it up and both Orton and Quinn suck/get hurt.

Tebow will see real game action early and fairly often but in a change-up role, not as the primary starter.

Br0nc0Buster
05-07-2010, 05:28 PM
Ok I need someone to clarify this for me
I was under the impression that if the third qb entered the game before the 4th quarter he must stay in until he is hurt.
If that is the case then Tebow cannot come in and run packages and just leave if he is behind Orton and Quinn on the depth chart

Does this mean he is gonna be listed as a RB or something other than QB on the depth chart?
Or does this "emergency qb" rule only apply if your third qb puts your team over the 45 active roster requirement?

or I guess they can make Quinn the third qb and put him in in the event Orton goes down

TheReverend
05-07-2010, 05:45 PM
and you think he can fix all of those things and be ready to start in 4 months?

Yeah and so do you. You're just as aware that I am that the reason 90% of these guys take so long to transition into NFL quality starting players is that by and large they have the mental capacity of goldfish. He'll be fine.

Drek
05-07-2010, 05:51 PM
Ok I need someone to clarify this for me
I was under the impression that if the third qb entered the game before the 4th quarter he must stay in until he is hurt.
If that is the case then Tebow cannot come in and run packages and just leave if he is behind Orton and Quinn on the depth chart

Does this mean he is gonna be listed as a RB or something other than QB on the depth chart?
Or does this "emergency qb" rule only apply if your third qb puts your team over the 45 active roster requirement?

or I guess they can make Quinn the third qb and put him in in the event Orton goes down

You can have a 3rd QB on the 53 man but not on the active 45, designate him the emergency QB, and he would be subject to the stipulations you mentioned (4th Q or he stays in the rest of the game unless he gets hurt).

But if you put three QBs on your active 45 you can mix and match them all game if you want.

That likely wouldn't be necessary though. The winner of Orton/Quinn/Brandstater would be the #1 QB, Tebow would technically be the #2 QB, and the second guy out of the previous three would be the emergency QB. If the #1 guy gets hurt we either chose to finish out the game with Tebow or let him take the rest of the day off and bring in the #2 guy to close it out.

BroncoInferno
05-07-2010, 08:33 PM
Maybe Kerry Collins, but it's not like he achieved wild success. Cutler didn't really have a slow release, he just throws on his back foot a lot. Eli Manning's release wasn't particularly slow either - it certainly never looked anything like Tebow's massive wind-up and release. Randal Cunningham's release wasn't slow so much as he was indecisive.

I think you should be the one who pays more close attention.

How about Kosar and Rivers? Both had hideous mechanics, worse than Tebow. Rivers, in particular, is an example of hard work improving a slow delivery. That was the knock on him coming out of NC State. His motion is still odd looking, but he's much quicker getting the ball out than he was in college.

Taco John
05-07-2010, 09:19 PM
And I just go back to the fact that slow releases are pretty overrated in terms of how much it hurts a QB.

I fully disagree with this. Slow releases absolutely kill quarterbacks at this level.


Similarly, Byron Leftwich and Kerry Collins' javelin throw wasn't why they sucked. They sucked because they weren't great passers.

Absolutey disagree with this too. Especially where Leftwhich is concerned. I appreciate the effort to try to blow a little sunshine around the Tebow pick, and I'm all for finding it wherever we can. It's like has been said before - there's a reason 26 teams passed on him. But the idea that slow releases don't matter all that much in the NFL is a pretty tough nut to swallow. Slow releases are career killers.

theAPAOps5
05-07-2010, 09:30 PM
Ok I need someone to clarify this for me
I was under the impression that if the third qb entered the game before the 4th quarter he must stay in until he is hurt.
If that is the case then Tebow cannot come in and run packages and just leave if he is behind Orton and Quinn on the depth chart

Does this mean he is gonna be listed as a RB or something other than QB on the depth chart?
Or does this "emergency qb" rule only apply if your third qb puts your team over the 45 active roster requirement?

or I guess they can make Quinn the third qb and put him in in the event Orton goes down

The solution to this is to just carry 3 QBs. Don't list one as inactive as the 3rd QB.

That or they will judge game to game. If a team is more suited to contain the skill set of Tebow then he will be the emergency QB and won't see much action. If a team is more suited to contain Brady or Orton depending on who ends up being the starter then they will list them 3rd and Tebow as the 2nd QB.

I think the answer will vary week to week depending on the opponent.

theAPAOps5
05-07-2010, 09:32 PM
I fully disagree with this. Slow releases absolutely kill quarterbacks at this level.


Didn't hurt Elway because he could compensate the release with his strength.

I actually think Kaylore is right. A slow release doesn't always kill the QB. But to make up for it he has to make quick decisions and get the ball there as fast as possible.

Taco John
05-07-2010, 09:37 PM
How about Kosar and Rivers? Both had hideous mechanics, worse than Tebow. Rivers, in particular, is an example of hard work improving a slow delivery. That was the knock on him coming out of NC State. His motion is still odd looking, but he's much quicker getting the ball out than he was in college.



With regards to Rivers, everything I ever read on him commented that his set up was quick and his timing good, despite the side arm delivery on his longer passes. Kosar is a relic that I don't personally would hold up nearly as well against modern defenses... but who really knows.

I think there's plenty of reason to be optimistic about Tebow if we're looking at a 2-3 year progression. But I'm not sold on the idea that we'll be able to throw him in this season, or even next, and expect to compete for a playoff birth. If it turns out that is what we're doing, I'd be delighted to be wrong, and we get to watch him turn overnight into the next big thing in the NFL.

FireFly
05-07-2010, 09:40 PM
the one thing I don't get is if it's that easy to fix his throwing motion, why didn't someone do it in college? Or don't they have coaches in college?

Taco John
05-07-2010, 09:57 PM
Didn't hurt Elway because he could compensate the release with his strength.

I actually think Kaylore is right. A slow release doesn't always kill the QB. But to make up for it he has to make quick decisions and get the ball there as fast as possible.


A lot of what Elway was doing was misdirection. Elway was an absolute master of this. No one could pump fake like Elway. Bringing Elway into this conversation is pretty weak. There is absolutely no comparing Elway's delivery with Tebow's. Elway could throw across his body with practically no wind up:

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That's not the case here:
http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/7687/tebowthrowingmotion.jpg


I'm not saying that he's a lost cause or anything. I'm just saying that I don't expect that he's anywhere near being a quality starter in the NFL right now. And I guess i'm 50-50 on whether he'll ever be there until we see what they do with his mechanics.

Vegas_Bronco
05-07-2010, 10:16 PM
Damn it's going to be a busy camp with the media hounding the field tripping over Tebow. If anything, this kid needs a BIG WR that can vertical to get the ball. His deep ball is just not pretty.

Orton learned (tried) to throw to each WR on our team - Stokley you hit in the chest and have to be pretty damn precise (not a lot of vertical or horizontal play); Royal Eddie is the best I've ever seen at catching anything below his chest...he moves incredibly well at the last second to create separation and is the best I've seen at coming back to the ball. Cutler could get that **** in there and get it low with his accuracy but Orton just never could exploit this fully - due to his inability to deliver an accurate 'low' ball. Remember he started one game throwing 3-4 balls into the ground 5-6 yards in front of RoyalEd. There were two games last year where they nailed it and Eddie had a great game. It was frustrating to see Orton not deliver on a 1-2 games early on and McD had to change up the game plan. B Marsh was a HUGE target that could go vertical to get a ball and I really think he would have been perfect for any rookie QB. Hopefully our new rook does the same - but realistically the best thing for Tebow would have been a BMARSH target to revert to anytime he's in trouble.

I still can't believe we drafted Tebow - going to be the one to watch this season for sure from a media story.

Tombstone RJ
05-08-2010, 12:20 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncosheadlines/ci_15035778?source=rss&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter



Tim Tebow has IT.

Not if.

And he gets it.

So says Josh McDaniels.

"I think the thing about Tim is what everybody calls the 'It'. There are those kind of people that have that 'It,' " the coach said emphatically this week in his office at Dove Valley. On the wall beside McDaniels' desk is a large TV, and frozen on the flat screen was Tim Tebow, in his orange Broncos practice jersey with a football by his left ear a start button for throwing a pass.

McDaniels looks at the image of the Broncos' rookie quarterback and compares Tebow's "It" factor to another quarterback he directly coached for five seasons in New England.

"When Tom (Brady) came to us in 2001, I wasn't on the offensive side of the ball, but I can remember the feeling in the building was that he had something that nobody else had . . . and how strongly he felt that ultimately he would be a great player. It was obviously apparent in subsequent seasons.

"I think when you get a guy, and he's waiting for me to tell him he's going to be a great player, we might be waiting a long time," he said.

McDaniels respected the confidence Brady showed then and admires the confidence Tebow shows now.

"That confidence affects everybody," he said. "We could see it last week at rookie camp. There were a bunch of rookies out there with no confidence, except him. He's got such confidence that he will just not let himself fail.

"And that quality sometimes is very underrated. There are people with a great deal of God-given ability who are fun to watch, and it's really interesting to see what kind of seasons they'll put together. Then there are guys who will say they won't fail, our team's not going to fail, and they have a 'I'm not going to let you down' attitude. And that's what you notice with Tim."

NFL scouts, coaches and analysts offered two alarming criticisms about Tebow the quarterback: his long, looping delivery and his lack of arm strength.

McDaniels has no concern about either. The Monday before the draft, McDaniels and other members of the organization flew to Florida to decide if Tebow would be their man.

"We spent seven hours with him, and I came away thinking that everybody keeps talking about the thing I think we can fix that's my job as a coach and nobody's talking about the things we don't have to teach him because he already has all that.

"I was struck by his intelligence, the way he understands the game, how I can have a great football conversation with him. I didn't have to sit there and draw it up. I would say, 'If they do this, here's what I want you to do,' and he says, 'I got it, Coach.' "

McDaniels implies that Tebow could play quarterback for the Broncos sooner rather than later.

"To me, (Tebow's acumen) gives him an advantage, an opportunity to play earlier than other people have played. Everybody keeps talking about it will be two, three years before he can play, and I think they don't know this guy. His mental capacity, and the way that he works, and the fact that he's on such a fast pace, will give him the chance to compete apples-to-apples.

"It's all going to be about his production and performance. There are a lot of rookies who can't run plays because they can't figure it out yet. That's not going to be the case with Tim. He'll be able to do the things (veterans) do."

During that final visit with Tebow, the coach began to explain the Broncos' offensive terminology, and the quarterback picked it up immediately. When McDaniels quizzed the QB about defensive fronts, Tebow proved he could recognize every variation and how to respond.

"You know what Tim doesn't know about our playbook?" McDaniels asked, then answered. "Only what we haven't told him yet."

And when Tebow threw at his private workout, McDaniels knew he wanted to figure out a way to wheel and deal in the first round to get him.

In Florida and at rookie camp, Tebow "threw into the wind, with it, across it, and there were no issues," McDaniels said. When Tebow threw long, "he would be looking, looking, then stand up, without winding up and all that stuff, throw 60 yards, just like that. He's got a really strong arm."

McDaniels points his remote control at the television, and Tebow is brought to life. Back and forth, fast forward, rewind, the coach reveals the rookie's throwing motion.

The problem with his delivery, McDaniels said, was not as much the left arm action as the right side body reaction. Tebow's nonthrowing arm was flailing, and his right side was bailing out. He's corrected the throwing motion and cocked position, is releasing the ball quicker, and has eliminated the inaccurate sidearm passes. McDaniels had Tebow tuck his right elbow, straighten his shoulders and concentrate on forcing the "15" (on his jersey front) to fall off (figuratively) when he throws.

"See, he's doing it, after just a couple of days," McDaniels said, looking at the screen. "What's it going to be like after 65 practices? He gets it."

IT is happening with Tim Tebow.

Rock on Josh!

elsid13
05-08-2010, 04:53 AM
I'll preface this by saying that I agree with your general point in that Tebow starting is likely bad news for the Broncos.

His delivery in general and his throwing motion in particular have not been worked on since High School. It was never addressed because he was so good that they didn't focus on it. You might say "why not work on it to be a better draft prospect?" And the answer is no one does that.

It's the same reason some lineman drafted to play OLB in a 3-4 suck in coverage and many corners suck at playing zone. They are things you don't even really use in college. You don't work on things that aren't a problem in college just to elevate your draft stock. There's not enough time between classes, learning the playbook and the limited amount of practice time colleges are afforded. Tebow's throwing motion was (obviously) not a detriment to his college game and therefore the least of his or Florida's worries.

He only recently started "working on it" to help make himself more pro ready. So my point is this isn't some bad habit he's been unable to break. It's a something he hasn't worked on as it wasn't a point of emphasis and he has shown the ability to adjust to it. He has the work ethic to get it sorted out. And I just go back to the fact that slow releases are pretty overrated in terms of how much it hurts a QB. Elway slapped the ball every single time he threw adding a huge amount of time to his release and also tipping off defenders when it was coming. There were probably times that it hurt him, but every player has a weakness. Similarly, Byron Leftwich and Kerry Collins' javelin throw wasn't why they sucked. They sucked because they weren't great passers.


Kaylore there are been new pieces for the last 3 seasons about Tebow working on his delivery. ESPN did a piece two years ago where he was working with the bio-mechanical engineers at Florida to find his perfect release. There is to much faith on this board that somehow Tebow is idiot savant when come to the QB position. Tebow is going to struggle like all rookie QB and until we see what happens under game pressure no one knows if he will be able to compete in the NFL.

elsid13
05-08-2010, 04:57 AM
Didn't hurt Elway because he could compensate the release with his strength.

I actually think Kaylore is right. A slow release doesn't always kill the QB. But to make up for it he has to make quick decisions and get the ball there as fast as possible.

Elway release was extremely fast. Three season ago when NFL channel was showing Denver/Texan game they were showing releases Cutler was 2.5 to 3.5 range and Elway was slightly faster.

Broncoman13
05-08-2010, 05:31 AM
He's one of the winningest, most highly decorated college QB's ever... and he did this against SEC competition.

Yet 24 teams passed on him...

That tells me there is something to this "project" label he has.

Meh... not like it hasn't happened before. There have been plenty of players selected in the end of the first that have gone on to have multiple pro-bowls and they too were considered projects.

I think some people are missing the point in all of this. We are going to be a power team. Power OL, Power Running game, Power QB, running a quick hitting passing game. McD is a super smart coach. Wouldn't be shocked in the bit to see a lot of spread in our offense next year. And the reason Tebow can get in sooner rather than later. This offense is going to expect to be in a lot of 3rd and 2 type situations. Tebow is probably the hardest rookie in this draft to game plan for in that situation.

CEH
05-08-2010, 07:15 AM
Tebow has already improved his release point by a factor that equates to two feet in the NFL meaning he now releases the ball 2 feet earlier than a defender can get to him. That is huge. McD is correct if he's already made strides since the draft image what 60 practices will so

His issue will not be his delivery as long as he doesn't revert back to his low long delivery (fumbles and sacks) but reading and accuracy . The windows in the NFL shrink to about 18 inches.

I wasn't a big Tebow fan coming out but he's here and I'll looking forward to seeing what Josh can do with him. The upside is Tebow will be the QB for the next 10 years. Anytime you have that kind of potential it's worth a shot .

I loved how McX worked the draft to come away with 2 players they targeted

Kaylore
05-08-2010, 07:41 AM
I fully disagree with this. Slow releases absolutely kill quarterbacks at this level.
Absolutey disagree with this too. Especially where Leftwhich is concerned. I appreciate the effort to try to blow a little sunshine around the Tebow pick, and I'm all for finding it wherever we can. It's like has been said before - there's a reason 26 teams passed on him. But the idea that slow releases don't matter all that much in the NFL is a pretty tough nut to swallow. Slow releases are career killers.

They're not, though. Name one player who was a good player but his slow release doomed his career. Guys with long throwing motion that suck have a huge host of other issues too that usually contribute more to bad play. In fact I'd wager you can't name one player that failed in the NFL that was perfect in every way except for his slow throwing motion and that doomed him.

And I'm not blowing smoke because I'm not saying Tebow is absolutely going to succeed. I'm saying if he fails it won't be because of his throwing motion. It will be for the same reason 95% of the other QB's drafted can't make it.

Kaylore
05-08-2010, 07:51 AM
Kaylore there are been new pieces for the last 3 seasons about Tebow working on his delivery. ESPN did a piece two years ago where he was working with the bio-mechanical engineers at Florida to find his perfect release. There is to much faith on this board that somehow Tebow is idiot savant when come to the QB position. Tebow is going to struggle like all rookie QB and until we see what happens under game pressure no one knows if he will be able to compete in the NFL.

How did this get turned into me thinking he isn't going to struggle coming in? Re-read the first line of what you quoted.

I'll preface this by saying that I agree with your general point in that Tebow starting is likely bad news for the Broncos.

All I was saying is he hasn't worked on his throwing motion pretty much at all until now. That doesn't mean I think he can start and that doesn't mean I think he won't struggle.

The article you're referencing was where their engineering department did MoCaps of many of the players on the Florida team to study body motion. It was not a QB only exercise. They did analyze throwing motion, but nowhere in the article does it say they were making adjustments to Tebow's motion or that they were working to correct.

Tebow said himself they didn't really start working on it until after the combine. And he doesn't lie.

baja
05-08-2010, 08:51 AM
I fully disagree with this. Slow releases absolutely kill quarterbacks at this level.




Absolutey disagree with this too. Especially where Leftwhich is concerned. I appreciate the effort to try to blow a little sunshine around the Tebow pick, and I'm all for finding it wherever we can. <b> It's like has been said before - there's a reason 26 teams passed on him.</b> But the idea that slow releases don't matter all that much in the NFL is a pretty tough nut to swallow. Slow releases are career killers.

Damn that phrase irritates me it makes about much sense as America, love it or leave it.

Every year some lower draft pick hits and every fan rushes to say 32 teams passed on him boy are they dumb.

The draft is not an exact science

BroncoInferno
05-08-2010, 09:16 AM
With regards to Rivers, everything I ever read on him commented that his set up was quick and his timing good, despite the side arm delivery on his longer passes.

Rivers always did have a knack or timing, but his motion was very slow and problematic at NC State. Pretty similar to Tebow, really. Despite the mechanics concerns, he was still a proliic and accurate passer in college.

Kosar is a relic that I don't personally would hold up nearly as well against modern defenses... but who really knows.

Kosar would be solid just like he was then. Not a star by any means, but it's not like we are talking about a guy from the 40s. He played against stellar defenses even by todays standards.

I think there's plenty of reason to be optimistic about Tebow if we're looking at a 2-3 year progression. But I'm not sold on the idea that we'll be able to throw him in this season, or even next, and expect to compete for a playoff birth. If it turns out that is what we're doing, I'd be delighted to be wrong, and we get to watch him turn overnight into the next big thing in the NFL.

I'm not sold on that either. I was just answering your question about guys with slow deliveries coming out of college who were successful.

BroncoInferno
05-08-2010, 09:18 AM
It's like has been said before - there's a reason 26 teams passed on him.

First of all, it was 24 teams. Second, what a weak argument. Marino was picked 27th. Aaron Rodgers went 24th. Every team in the league passed on Tom Brady multiple times before he was selected. What kind of argument is that?

Circle Orange
05-08-2010, 11:59 AM
The gushing is getting silly and highschoolish.

At least Tebow has a better body than Brady. I mean for Pete's sake, only a dog wants a bone.

maher_tyler
05-08-2010, 12:33 PM
I doubt Tebow starts this year. It just doesn't make sense to rush him to me. He's working to improve the faults in his game and likely still will be for months yet. I'd rather he get a full year to put things in place so that his new motion is automatic before we ask him to go out there and pass the ball 30+ times a game.

The fact that we'll have certain packages designed for him to get him on the field should help in stopping the fans clamoring for him to be the starter, expect us to use him much like the Eagles did with Vick last year.

But, if he somehow does end up as the starter then one thing that will really help him is that he has never been one that'll try and force the ball in there when there's nobody open. We know that's something McDaniels values a lot, so maybe he'll feel he can tell Tebow something along the lines of "If neither of your first two reads get open, just tuck the ball down and try and run with it or just take the sack, we'll live to fight another series."

That's pretty much how Orton got to 6-0 last year, and obviously he was about as much threat to run the ball as some blind guy in a wheelchair would have been.

All in all though I think a year of being a special packages kind of guy is the way to go with him.

I agree with this..seems like thats how Florida used him the last year Leak was there. If he does become the starter..so be it. Hopefully McD really feels this strongly about the guy!

maher_tyler
05-08-2010, 12:35 PM
And has had nothing but success. I still say the 2-3 year thing is more mental, and if thats his strength, then i dont understand the real problem. I just think the 2-3 year thing is something people say.

I think is more speed of the game than anything else. He can know where the ball is suppose to go but it takes time to know when etc etc.

theAPAOps5
05-08-2010, 01:47 PM
http://bit.ly/aHKsMJ

elsid13
05-09-2010, 05:49 AM
http://bit.ly/aHKsMJ


Suddenly Mustard and Hotrod just stop being the "cutest" couple in Denver. :approve:

Drek
05-09-2010, 06:37 AM
First of all, it was 24 teams. Second, what a weak argument. Marino was picked 27th. Aaron Rodgers went 24th. Every team in the league passed on Tom Brady multiple times before he was selected. What kind of argument is that?

Wasn't 24 either.

Seattle and SF had two picks before we selected Tebow. We had already taken a player as well. So in reality on 21 teams passed on Tebow.

That argument also only holds up when looked at in a very unrealistic vacuum. I'm sure McDaniels would've passed on Tebow if he could've drafted Suh instead.

The Joker
05-09-2010, 07:26 AM
Wasn't 24 either.

Seattle and SF had two picks before we selected Tebow. We had already taken a player as well. So in reality on 21 teams passed on Tebow.

That argument also only holds up when looked at in a very unrealistic vacuum. I'm sure McDaniels would've passed on Tebow if he could've drafted Suh instead.

Also many of the teams that picked before we took Tebow are already tied long-term to a QB, so drafting Tebow wasn't really an option for them.

Realistically, the following teams "passed" on Tebow.

Rams
Seahawks
Browns
Raiders
Bills
Jaguars
49ers