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Archer81
05-06-2010, 11:13 AM
Administrators at a California high school sent five students home on Wednesday after they refused to remove their American flag T-shirts and bandannas -- garments the school officials deemed "incendiary" on Cinco de Mayo.

The five teens were sitting at a table outside Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill, Calif., on Wednesday morning when Assistant Principal Miguel Rodriguez asked two of them to remove their American flag bandannas, the Morgan Hill Times reported. The boys told the newspaper they complied, but were asked to accompany Rodriguez to the principal's office.

The five students -- Daniel Galli, Austin Carvalho, Matt Dariano, Dominic Maciel and Clayton Howard -- were then told they must turn their T-shirts inside-out or be sent home, though it would not be considered a suspension. Rodriguez told the students he did not want any fights to break out between Mexican-American students celebrating their heritage and those wearing American flags.

"They said we were starting a fight," Dariano told the newspaper. "We were fuel to the fire."

The boys told Rodriguez and Principal Nick Boden that turning their shirts inside-out was disrespectful, so their parents decided to take them home, the newspaper reports.

"I just couldn't believe it," Julie Fagerstrom, Maciel's mother, told the newspaper. "I'm an open-minded parent, but it's got to be on both sides. It can't be five kids singled out."

Galli told NBC Bay Area, "They said we could wear it on any other day, but today is sensitive to Mexican-Americans because it's supposed to be their holiday so we were not allowed to wear it."

In a statement released on Wednesday, the Morgan Hill Unified School District said it did not agree with the school's actions.

"In an attempt to foster a spirit of cultural awareness and maintain a safe and supportive school environment, the Live Oak High School administration took certain actions earlier today," the statement read. "The district does not concur with the Live Oak High School administration's interpretation of either board or district policy related to these actions."

Attempts to reach school officials early Thursday were not successful. A secretary told the Morgan Hill Times that Boden and Rodriguez were unavailable for comment on Wednesday.

According to its website, Live Oak High School is a 1,300-student institution in the southern part of Santa Clara County, with most students residing in the nearby cities of Morgan Hill and San Jose.

"The student population reflects the rich ethnic and socioeconomic diversity of the community," the website reads.

More than 100 students were spotted wearing the colors of the Mexican flag -- red, white and green -- as they left school, including some who had the flag painted on their faces or arms, the Morgan Hill times reported.

While bandannas of any color are banned at the school, its dress code policy does not contain references to American flags.

"However, any clothing or decoration which detracts from the learning environment is prohibited," the policy reads. "The school has the right to request that any student dressing inappropriately for school will change into other clothes, be sent home to change, and/or be subject to disciplinary action."

Freshman Laura Ponce, who had a Mexican flag painted on her face and chest, told the Morgan Hill Times that Cinco de Mayo is the "only day" Mexican-American students can show their national pride.

"There was a lot of drama going on today," Ponce told the newspaper.

Some other Mexican-American students reportedly said their flags were taken away or asked to be put away, but no other students were sent home on Wednesday.

Eugene Volokh, a professor of law at the University of California-Los Angeles, said the students are protected under California Education Code 48950, which prohibits schools from enforcing a rule subjecting a high school student to disciplinary sanctions solely on the basis of conduct, that when engaged outside of campus, is protected by the First Amendment.

If the school could point to previous incidents sparked by students who wore garments with American flags, they could argue that the flag is likely to lead to "substantial disruption," Volokh said.

"If, for example, there had been fights over similar things at past events, if there had been specific threats made," he said. "But if [school officials] just say, 'Well, we think it might be offensive to people,' that's generally speaking not enough."

Volokh said the students and their parents likely have a winning case on their hands if they decide to take the matter to court.

"Oh yes, it's almost open and shut," he said.

Lis Wiehl, a former federal prosecutor and a Fox News legal analyst, said the incident appears to a "blatant" violation of the students' First Amendment right to free speech. She noted that inciting violence is an exception to a First Amendment legal defense, but Wiehl said she saw no indications that the students provoked anyone.

"Unless I'm missing something, this seems like a blatant violation of the First Amendment," said Wiehl, adding that uniforms are not required at the public school. "And they're wearing, of all horrific things, the American flag."


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/06/california-students-sent-home-wearing-flags-cinco-mayo/

:Broncos:

Beantown Bronco
05-06-2010, 11:15 AM
I wonder if they'll let any of them wear the American flag after California secedes.

UberBroncoMan
05-06-2010, 11:21 AM
California can **** off. Treating nationality and skin color like a ****ing obsession.

Christ. It's the ****ing United States. If you can't deal with our flag and you live here get the **** out.

UberBroncoMan
05-06-2010, 11:22 AM
I wonder if they'll let any of them wear the American flag after California secedes.

They'll end up like Greece if they have no more federal bailouts.

dbfan21
05-06-2010, 11:25 AM
California can **** off. Treating nationality and skin color like a ****ing obsession.

Christ. It's the ****ing United States. If you can't deal with our flag and you live here get the **** out.

I am dbfan21 and I approve of this message.

Dogsweat
05-06-2010, 11:27 AM
They'll end up like Greece if they have no more federal bailouts.


+5

The parallels of Greece and California are amazing.

Top it of with a major earthquake and California's destruction is imminent........

Maybe China will bail them out?

http://orangejuiceblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/California-government-sucks-300x212.jpg

Dexter
05-06-2010, 11:29 AM
Sorry if this sounds ignorant in advance.

Why is it that if Mexicans are so proud of their heritage and feel the need to wave around the flag of mexico, are they in the United States? Shouldn't the Hispanic community fighting for citizenship of millions of illegal immigrants be waving around the country's flag that they want to be in and want support from?

Maybe I'm generally just stupid and don't understand these things, but I'd like to think I'm using some common sense.

Also, that article pisses me off. You should always be able to wear your countries colors if you are in YOUR country.

mizzoutigers
05-06-2010, 11:37 AM
The liberals will be so proud of this story; exactly what they are striving for, I personally am nauseated by the story

DrFate
05-06-2010, 11:37 AM
Crazy world we live in...

Pony Boy
05-06-2010, 11:39 AM
Merge with the thread in WRP forum....

Irish Stout
05-06-2010, 11:40 AM
what happened to freedom of speech? What happened to pride of country?

I've seen hispanic people wearing Mexcan flagged themed shirts on the 4th of July and I didn't think one thing of it.

Garcia Bronco
05-06-2010, 11:42 AM
Sorry if this sounds ignorant in advance.

Why is it that if Mexicans are so proud of their heritage and feel the need to wave around the flag of mexico, are they in the United States? Shouldn't the Hispanic community fighting for citizenship of millions of illegal immigrants be waving around the country's flag that they want to be in and want support from?

Maybe I'm generally just stupid and don't understand these things, but I'd like to think I'm using some common sense.

Also, that article pisses me off. You should always be able to wear your countries colors if you are in YOUR country.

Becuase Mexicans feel that it's their land.

Archer81
05-06-2010, 11:43 AM
Becuase Mexicans feel that it's their land.


Its nice that Mexicans in Mexico feel that way. What about Americans in America?


:Broncos:

mkporter
05-06-2010, 11:44 AM
The boys told Rodriguez and Principal Nick Boden that turning their shirts inside-out was disrespectful, so their parents decided to take them home, the newspaper reports.


While I agree that these kids were probably trying to provoke a reaction, isn't that what teenagers do every day? Can't send 'em home for that. I'm pretty sure that the school's concern was not about being PC, however, but about protecting the safety of their students. The school was still wrong though.

My favorite part was the kids saying it was disrespectful to turn their clothes inside out. Isn't it considered disrespectful to wear the American flag as clothing in the first place?

mizzoutigers
05-06-2010, 11:44 AM
Becuase Mexicans feel that it's their land.

Well it's not so get the F*** out of here unless you want to become a legal immigrant the correct way

Irish Stout
05-06-2010, 11:45 AM
The liberals will be so proud of this story; exactly what they are striving for, I personally am nauseated by the story

I'm sorry, but this is a real stupid statement. Yes there will be some liberals who will think this was the right decision, but many of them will be just as offended as you.

Just because Rush Limbaugh thinks that the gulf coast oil spill crisis is no big deal and that we shouldn't expend our resources to clean it up doesn't mean that all conservatives agree.

I'm personally nauseated by people drawing lines in the sand and stating that you're either on one side of the line or the other. Dude, there is a lot of middle ground in this world where people actually do agree on things. I think the majority of liberals and conservatives would agree that the actions of this school against these kids was wrong and overstepping.

Garcia Bronco
05-06-2010, 11:46 AM
One article even said they adourned the school in Mexico flags. If that's true the principle needs to be fired because he/she probably just cost their school district some money

Dexter
05-06-2010, 11:50 AM
The liberals will be so proud of this story; exactly what they are striving for, I personally am nauseated by the story

I would consider myself more liberal than not... and I am extremely offended by this story. So don't generalize based off of a few extremist ****s.

Quoydogs
05-06-2010, 11:50 AM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/attachment.php?attachmentid=26517&stc=1&d=1273171779


How can anyone say this is disrespectful.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-06-2010, 11:51 AM
I'm sorry, but this is a real stupid statement. Yes there will be some liberals who will think this was the right decision, but many of them will be just as offended as you.

Just because Rush Limbaugh thinks that the gulf coast oil spill crisis is no big deal and that we shouldn't expend our resources to clean it up doesn't mean that all conservatives agree.

I'm personally nauseated by people drawing lines in the sand and stating that you're either on one side of the line or the other. Dude, there is a lot of middle ground in this world where people actually do agree on things. I think the majority of liberals and conservatives would agree that the actions of this school against these kids was wrong and overstepping.

Perfectly stated. I consider myself a progressive and feel like this assistant principal WAY overstepped his bounds. Doesn't seem proper at all, and seems like a very silly thing on which to take a stand.

UberBroncoMan
05-06-2010, 11:51 AM
I'm sorry, but this is a real stupid statement. Yes there will be some liberals who will think this was the right decision, but many of them will be just as offended as you.

Just because Rush Limbaugh thinks that the gulf coast oil spill crisis is no big deal and that we shouldn't expend our resources to clean it up doesn't mean that all conservatives agree.

I'm personally nauseated by people drawing lines in the sand and stating that you're either on one side of the line or the other. Dude, there is a lot of middle ground in this world where people actually do agree on things. I think the majority of liberals and conservatives would agree that the actions of this school against these kids was wrong and overstepping.

Seriously... dude. What the hell is it with people always using him as an insult. People may hate him but the dude hardly thinks it's not a big deal. No person with any education would think it's not a big deal. It's a massive catastrophe.

I agree that not all liberals will agree with this. That said, when it comes to those who think the white man is bad etc, and that we should bend and break for the needs of illegals, other nationalities etc at the expense of citizens/our own nation - practically all of these people are liberals.

Dexter
05-06-2010, 11:51 AM
I'm sorry, but this is a real stupid statement. Yes there will be some liberals who will think this was the right decision, but many of them will be just as offended as you.

Just because Rush Limbaugh thinks that the gulf coast oil spill crisis is no big deal and that we shouldn't expend our resources to clean it up doesn't mean that all conservatives agree.

I'm personally nauseated by people drawing lines in the sand and stating that you're either on one side of the line or the other. Dude, there is a lot of middle ground in this world where people actually do agree on things. I think the majority of liberals and conservatives would agree that the actions of this school against these kids was wrong and overstepping.

Well said.:thumbsup:

brother love
05-06-2010, 11:56 AM
Administrators at a California high school sent five students home on Wednesday after they refused to remove their American flag T-shirts and bandannas -- garments the school officials deemed "incendiary" on Cinco de Mayo.

The five teens were sitting at a table outside Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill, Calif., on Wednesday morning when Assistant Principal Miguel Rodriguez asked two of them to remove their American flag bandannas, the Morgan Hill Times reported. The boys told the newspaper they complied, but were asked to accompany Rodriguez to the principal's office.

The five students -- Daniel Galli, Austin Carvalho, Matt Dariano, Dominic Maciel and Clayton Howard -- were then told they must turn their T-shirts inside-out or be sent home, though it would not be considered a suspension. Rodriguez told the students he did not want any fights to break out between Mexican-American students celebrating their heritage and those wearing American flags.

"They said we were starting a fight," Dariano told the newspaper. "We were fuel to the fire."

The boys told Rodriguez and Principal Nick Boden that turning their shirts inside-out was disrespectful, so their parents decided to take them home, the newspaper reports.

"I just couldn't believe it," Julie Fagerstrom, Maciel's mother, told the newspaper. "I'm an open-minded parent, but it's got to be on both sides. It can't be five kids singled out."

Galli told NBC Bay Area, "They said we could wear it on any other day, but today is sensitive to Mexican-Americans because it's supposed to be their holiday so we were not allowed to wear it."

In a statement released on Wednesday, the Morgan Hill Unified School District said it did not agree with the school's actions.

"In an attempt to foster a spirit of cultural awareness and maintain a safe and supportive school environment, the Live Oak High School administration took certain actions earlier today," the statement read. "The district does not concur with the Live Oak High School administration's interpretation of either board or district policy related to these actions."

Attempts to reach school officials early Thursday were not successful. A secretary told the Morgan Hill Times that Boden and Rodriguez were unavailable for comment on Wednesday.

According to its website, Live Oak High School is a 1,300-student institution in the southern part of Santa Clara County, with most students residing in the nearby cities of Morgan Hill and San Jose.

"The student population reflects the rich ethnic and socioeconomic diversity of the community," the website reads.

More than 100 students were spotted wearing the colors of the Mexican flag -- red, white and green -- as they left school, including some who had the flag painted on their faces or arms, the Morgan Hill times reported.

While bandannas of any color are banned at the school, its dress code policy does not contain references to American flags.

"However, any clothing or decoration which detracts from the learning environment is prohibited," the policy reads. "The school has the right to request that any student dressing inappropriately for school will change into other clothes, be sent home to change, and/or be subject to disciplinary action."

Freshman Laura Ponce, who had a Mexican flag painted on her face and chest, told the Morgan Hill Times that Cinco de Mayo is the "only day" Mexican-American students can show their national pride.

"There was a lot of drama going on today," Ponce told the newspaper.

Some other Mexican-American students reportedly said their flags were taken away or asked to be put away, but no other students were sent home on Wednesday.

Eugene Volokh, a professor of law at the University of California-Los Angeles, said the students are protected under California Education Code 48950, which prohibits schools from enforcing a rule subjecting a high school student to disciplinary sanctions solely on the basis of conduct, that when engaged outside of campus, is protected by the First Amendment.

If the school could point to previous incidents sparked by students who wore garments with American flags, they could argue that the flag is likely to lead to "substantial disruption," Volokh said.

"If, for example, there had been fights over similar things at past events, if there had been specific threats made," he said. "But if [school officials] just say, 'Well, we think it might be offensive to people,' that's generally speaking not enough."

Volokh said the students and their parents likely have a winning case on their hands if they decide to take the matter to court.

"Oh yes, it's almost open and shut," he said.

Lis Wiehl, a former federal prosecutor and a Fox News legal analyst, said the incident appears to a "blatant" violation of the students' First Amendment right to free speech. She noted that inciting violence is an exception to a First Amendment legal defense, but Wiehl said she saw no indications that the students provoked anyone.

"Unless I'm missing something, this seems like a blatant violation of the First Amendment," said Wiehl, adding that uniforms are not required at the public school. "And they're wearing, of all horrific things, the American flag."


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/06/california-students-sent-home-wearing-flags-cinco-mayo/

:Broncos:

They were racially profiled by him because they were white!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-06-2010, 11:56 AM
Seriously... dude. What the hell is it with people always using him as an insult. People may hate him but the dude hardly thinks it's not a big deal. No person with any education would think it's not a big deal. It's a massive catastrophe.


His quote says otherwise:

"Now, lest we forget, ladies and gentlemen, the carbon tax bill, cap and trade that was scheduled to be announced on Earth Day. I remember that. And then it was postponed for a couple of days later after Earth Day, and then of course immigration has now moved in front of it. But this bill, the cap-and-trade bill, was strongly criticized by hardcore environmentalist wackos because it supposedly allowed more offshore drilling and nuclear plants, nuclear plant investment. So, since they're sending SWAT teams down there, folks, since they're sending SWAT teams to inspect the other rigs, what better way to head off more oil drilling, nuclear plants, than by blowing up a rig? I'm just noting the timing here."

He added later: "The ocean will take care of this on its own if it was left alone and left out there. It's natural. It's as natural as the ocean water is."

UberBroncoMan
05-06-2010, 11:58 AM
His quote says otherwise:

"Now, lest we forget, ladies and gentlemen, the carbon tax bill, cap and trade that was scheduled to be announced on Earth Day. I remember that. And then it was postponed for a couple of days later after Earth Day, and then of course immigration has now moved in front of it. But this bill, the cap-and-trade bill, was strongly criticized by hardcore environmentalist wackos because it supposedly allowed more offshore drilling and nuclear plants, nuclear plant investment. So, since they're sending SWAT teams down there, folks, since they're sending SWAT teams to inspect the other rigs, what better way to head off more oil drilling, nuclear plants, than by blowing up a rig? I'm just noting the timing here."

He added later: "The ocean will take care of this on its own if it was left alone and left out there. It's natural. It's as natural as the ocean water is."

I heard his show a few days ago. That bull**** at the end never happened. There's no audio record of it whatsoever. Just typical political bull****.

Also. The ocean does take care of "natural" leaks. This one however is an assisted leak, which is far from natural.

TailgateNut
05-06-2010, 12:02 PM
The liberals will be so proud of this story; exactly what they are striving for, I personally am nauseated by the story


I'm what you would possibly consider a liberal, a liberal who served under the Flag of the United States of America, and you can kiss my ****ing liberal ass, because I'm also pissed about this BS.

Quoydogs
05-06-2010, 12:02 PM
I heard his show a few days ago. That bull**** at the end never happened. There's no audio record of it whatsoever. Just typical political bull****.

Rush is a big fat liar!! He said he would leave the country if health care passed. Well it passed and I would be more then willing to buy him a one way ticket anywhere he would like to go as long as it is outside of America.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-06-2010, 12:04 PM
I heard his show a few days ago. That bull**** at the end never happened. There's no audio record of it whatsoever. Just typical political bull****.

Also. The ocean does take care of "natural" leaks. This one however is an assisted leak, which is far from natural.

If it never happened, why is he not threatening to sue the living **** out of whoever made up the quote? Not saying you're wrong, I just think it's curious.

Records can be deleted. Easily.

Archer81
05-06-2010, 12:05 PM
If it never happened, why is he not threatening to sue the living **** out of whoever made up the quote? Not saying you're wrong, I just think it's curious.

Records can be deleted. Easily.


Things can easily be made up as well.

You would be surprised how often Rush is accused of saying something, then he plays back the unedited audio and that is not what he said at all.

Odd game, political commentary.

:Broncos:

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 12:05 PM
Sorry if this sounds ignorant in advance.

Why is it that if Mexicans are so proud of their heritage and feel the need to wave around the flag of mexico, are they in the United States? Shouldn't the Hispanic community fighting for citizenship of millions of illegal immigrants be waving around the country's flag that they want to be in and want support from?

Maybe I'm generally just stupid and don't understand these things, but I'd like to think I'm using some common sense.

Also, that article pisses me off. You should always be able to wear your countries colors if you are in YOUR country.

I disagree with you. There are many Mexican-American people that are proud to be Americans, but also proud of their Mexican Heritage. Same with the Irish, Italians, Puerto Ricans, Native Americans, etc...

Would it be fine to wear a Confederate Flag the day you know people are celebrating Martin Luther King or Black History Month? I mean they are just showing that they are proud of their Southern upringing.

We don't know these kids. They might be wearing these things just to start something.

UberBroncoMan
05-06-2010, 12:06 PM
If it never happened, why is he not threatening to sue the living **** out of whoever made up the quote? Not saying you're wrong, I just think it's curious.

Records can be deleted. Easily.

Dude. Stop with the conspiracy theory retarded ****. Christ. If it happened someone could have recorded it and we'd be hearing it. The quote was circulated through emails. No one knows who made it first. Also, people do this **** with him and other political figures all the time. Seriously. You're smarter than to fall to stupid **** like this and you know it.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-06-2010, 12:07 PM
Things can easily be made up as well.

You would be surprised how often Rush is accused of saying something, then he plays back the unedited audio and that is not what he said at all.

Odd game, political commentary.

:Broncos:

I concur. I just don't buy that people have to make awful **** up that Rush supposedly said. He's proven himself to be a pretty ****ing terrible person.

Frankly, I'd like to punch him in the cock.

ghwk
05-06-2010, 12:07 PM
The liberals will be so proud of this story; exactly what they are striving for, I personally am nauseated by the story

You continue to be wrong on so many levels Racistman.

UberBroncoMan
05-06-2010, 12:09 PM
Rush is a big fat liar!! He said he would leave the country if health care passed. Well it passed and I would be more then willing to buy him a one way ticket anywhere he would like to go as long as it is outside of America.

God almighty. He never said it in a serious statement. He joked about it. People would call in and he'd even say he was joking. Also, how many countless Hollywood celebrities have said they'd leave if Bush was reelected etc. Lets not turn this into a Rush thread.

OrangeShadow
05-06-2010, 12:09 PM
California can **** off. Treating nationality and skin color like a ****ing obsession.

Christ. It's the ****ing United States. If you can't deal with our flag and you live here get the **** out.

this.

Archer81
05-06-2010, 12:10 PM
I concur. I just don't buy that people have to make awful **** up that Rush supposedly said. He's proven himself to be a pretty ****ing terrible person.

Frankly, I'd like to punch him in the cock.


I feel that way about keith olbermann.

See? The left and the right DO have things in common.

:Broncos:

Quoydogs
05-06-2010, 12:11 PM
God almighty. He never said it in a serious statement. He joked about it. People would call in and he'd even say he was joking. Also, how many countless Hollywood celebrities have said they'd leave if Bush was reelected etc. Lets not turn this into a Rush thread.

Wouldn't mind if those celebs left also. Point is he said it, he lied now he should leave. I am doing my part. I am willing to pay is airfare.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-06-2010, 12:12 PM
I feel that way about keith olbermann.

See? The left and the right DO have things in common.

:Broncos:

HEH. Touche.

Borks147
05-06-2010, 12:12 PM
Sorry if this sounds ignorant in advance.

Why is it that if Mexicans are so proud of their heritage and feel the need to wave around the flag of mexico, are they in the United States? Shouldn't the Hispanic community fighting for citizenship of millions of illegal immigrants be waving around the country's flag that they want to be in and want support from?

Maybe I'm generally just stupid and don't understand these things, but I'd like to think I'm using some common sense.

Also, that article pisses me off. You should always be able to wear your countries colors if you are in YOUR country.

Meehhh - I mean, the Irish still waive around their flag from time to time and they've been assimilated for 100 years. Mexicans will waive around their flag to remember where they came from, but certainly they are Americans now and that should come first.

Also, as a first generation Mexican (ie I moved to the states), this article pissed me off. I mean, come on dudes, it's the US, if you dress up like Uncle Sam on Cinco de Mayo and I wouldn't care. Besides, Cinco de Mayo is an invented holiday - imagine if the US celebrated the Battle of Gettysburg.

Rohirrim
05-06-2010, 12:14 PM
I'm a liberal too. I also served under that flag for three years. People shouldn't be wearing the American flag anyway. But the day we decide we can't show our colors in our own country for risk it might "offend" somebody is the day we should just go ahead and burn it all down. PC run amok.

Beantown Bronco
05-06-2010, 12:15 PM
Would it be fine to wear a Confederate Flag the day you know people are celebrating Martin Luther King or Black History Month? I mean they are just showing that they are proud of their Southern upringing.

Bad example there.

Virginia actually celebrates Robert E Lee/Stonewall Jackson day right around MLK day.

Archer81
05-06-2010, 12:15 PM
Meehhh - I mean, the Irish still waive around their flag from time to time and they've been assimilated for 100 years. Mexicans will waive around their flag to remember where they came from, but certainly they are Americans now and that should come first.

Also, as a first generation Mexican (ie I moved to the states), this article pissed me off. I mean, come on dudes, it's the US, if you dress up like Uncle Sam on Cinco de Mayo and I wouldn't care. Besides, Cinco de Mayo is an invented holiday - imagine if the US celebrated the Battle of Gettysburg.


Imagine if the US made a holiday for the Battles of Veracruz, Chapultapec or the capture of Mexico City...

:Broncos:

sisterhellfyre
05-06-2010, 12:15 PM
Isn't it considered disrespectful to wear the American flag as clothing in the first place?

Using the same colors and patterns as the flag? No problem.

Turning an actual flag into clothing? Extremely disrespectful.

(Unless you're like the last man standing in some Mad Max scenario and the only cloth for miles around is in an abandoned flag factory... or something...)

UberBroncoMan
05-06-2010, 12:16 PM
Meehhh - I mean, the Irish still waive around their flag from time to time and they've been assimilated for 100 years. Mexicans will waive around their flag to remember where they came from, but certainly they are Americans now and that should come first.

Also, as a first generation Mexican (ie I moved to the states), this article pissed me off. I mean, come on dudes, it's the US, if you dress up like Uncle Sam on Cinco de Mayo and I wouldn't care. Besides, Cinco de Mayo is an invented holiday - imagine if the US celebrated the Battle of Gettysburg.

Exactly.

I'm 1/2 2nd generation Mexican myself.

Borks147
05-06-2010, 12:16 PM
also - out of curiosity - do you guys think American flag boxers, bikinis and the like are disrespectful? As a relative outsider, I think that it is incredibly disrespectful of the flag, and I'm sure most foreigners would agree that it's just weird.

Dexter
05-06-2010, 12:19 PM
I disagree with you. There are many Mexican-American people that are proud to be Americans, but also proud of their Mexican Heritage. Same with the Irish, Italians, Puerto Ricans, Native Americans, etc...

Would it be fine to wear a Confederate Flag the day you know people are celebrating Martin Luther King or Black History Month? I mean they are just showing that they are proud of their Southern upringing.

We don't know these kids. They might be wearing these things just to start something.

You make some ok points, but even if these kids were trying to start something, (which I don't think was their intention) why should there ever be a day in the United States where we aren't allowed to wear red white and blue? We don't go to other countries and celebrate our heritage and expect them to put away their colors for a day.

UberBroncoMan
05-06-2010, 12:20 PM
also - out of curiosity - do you guys think American flag boxers, bikinis and the like are disrespectful? As a relative outsider, I think that it is incredibly disrespectful of the flag, and I'm sure most foreigners would agree that it's just weird.

Honestly. I'd say back in the day it's disrespectful. But being raised in the current era where wearing flags was considered patriotic and cool I don't find it disrespectful at all.

Now if you were an American or in America and burning, spitting, and or cutting up a REAL AMERICAN FLAG, then I'd feel disrespected.

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 12:20 PM
Bad example there.

Virginia actually celebrates Robert E Lee/Stonewall Jackson day right around MLK day.

Near and on are different things. Just an example. Still valid. There are kids that will do and wear things just to try to start something.

Why would any US state celebrate any traitor? Do they have Benedict Arnold day somewhere?

Archer81
05-06-2010, 12:20 PM
also - out of curiosity - do you guys think American flag boxers, bikinis and the like are disrespectful? As a relative outsider, I think that it is incredibly disrespectful of the flag, and I'm sure most foreigners would agree that it's just weird.


As sister hellfire said, not unless its made of an actual flag. I freak out if I see an American flag left outside so long it starts to fray...I actually knocked on the door of my neighbors house to tell them to take it down and burn it and buy a new one. Leaving it up til its tattered is immensely disrespectful...


:Broncos:

Borks147
05-06-2010, 12:23 PM
As sister hellfire said, not unless its made of an actual flag. I freak out if I see an American flag left outside so long it starts to fray...I actually knocked on the door of my neighbors house to tell them to take it down and burn it and buy a new one. Leaving it up til its tattered is immensely disrespectful...


:Broncos:

hhmmm ok

I dunno, I grew up in a country where the flag was so revered you could only fly it at your residence 1 day a year (Independence Day). I think you'd get kicked squared in the nuts if you wore flag boxers.

Jason in LA
05-06-2010, 12:25 PM
First of all I'd say that the school was wrong for sending them home. It sends a bad message.

With that being said, I do question why these students decided to dress like that on that particular day. If they always dressed like that, okay, I'm with it. No problem. But I doubt that is the case. They were trying to send a message. They probably thought it was going to be funny and didn't care that other people would have a problem with it.

I don't feel like they were victims. Like I said before, the school went too far in sending them home, but they brought that on themselves. They knew that there was going to be some type of back lash and they did it anyways. Sorry, but I can't feel bad for people who bring problems on themselves.

It's probably better that the school sent them home then some pissed off students sending them to the hospital (that statement does not mean that I believe that it is okay for the Mexican students to beat them up, but you know that's coming.)

ghwk
05-06-2010, 12:26 PM
also - out of curiosity - do you guys think American flag boxers, bikinis and the like are disrespectful? As a relative outsider, I think that it is incredibly disrespectful of the flag, and I'm sure most foreigners would agree that it's just weird.

I agree. The woman in that photo earlier should be required to take it off. Now. ;D

Dexter
05-06-2010, 12:28 PM
I agree. The woman in that photo earlier should be required to take it off. Now. ;D

No doubt, its extremely disrespectful to cover up such a beautiful body.^5

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 12:29 PM
You make some ok points, but even if these kids were trying to start something, (which I don't think was their intention) why should there ever be a day in the United States where we aren't allowed to wear red white and blue? We don't go to other countries and celebrate our heritage and expect them to put away their colors for a day.

You never know intent.

Personal I don't care if they wear US Flags on Cinco De Mayo, English Flags on St. Patricks, or Japanese Flags on Pearl Harbor Day.

Some schools will not allow students to wear Red or Blue because of Gang problems.

These are complex times we live in, and things are not always black and white.

Borks147
05-06-2010, 12:29 PM
i agree. The woman in that photo earlier should be required to take it off. Now. ;d

nice haha

Archer81
05-06-2010, 12:30 PM
hhmmm ok

I dunno, I grew up in a country where the flag was so revered you could only fly it at your residence 1 day a year (Independence Day). I think you'd get kicked squared in the nuts if you wore flag boxers.


Considering the basis of the US national anthem was based on the survival of the US Flag at Ft McHenry, we take it seriously. As long as its not an actual flag, it doesnt matter if its a tshirt or boxers or a bandana or a flag pin. Its a way for us to display our patriotism. Understanding this makes sense of why some people were upset when Obama would not wear a flag pin or place his hand over his heart during our national anthem.

Dont misunderstand me, I am proud my neighbors display the flag...but I grew up on military bases. That flag was never left hanging up overnight and they played taps when it went up and taps when it came down at 6pm. So it bothers me a bit when I see American flags left outside to the point they start to fall apart. To me that is disrespectful...as is burning the flag as a sign of protest.

:Broncos:

UberBroncoMan
05-06-2010, 12:30 PM
hhmmm ok

I dunno, I grew up in a country where the flag was so revered you could only fly it at your residence 1 day a year (Independence Day). I think you'd get kicked squared in the nuts if you wore flag boxers.

Stuff changes man. Hell, look at religion. With the internet and in the social era there has been a massive increase in atheism/agnosticism in 1st world countries.

Jason in LA
05-06-2010, 12:34 PM
I disagree with you. There are many Mexican-American people that are proud to be Americans, but also proud of their Mexican Heritage. Same with the Irish, Italians, Puerto Ricans, Native Americans, etc...

Would it be fine to wear a Confederate Flag the day you know people are celebrating Martin Luther King or Black History Month? I mean they are just showing that they are proud of their Southern upringing.

We don't know these kids. They might be wearing these things just to start something.

That's what I'm getting at. Wearing the flag on that day is just trying to start some problems. Like I said in my post above, if they normally wore that then no problem. But why break that out on that day? It's to cause trouble, and now people are running to defend them? They didn't do it to honor their country, they did it to cause problems. That's not how our flag should be used.

Archer81
05-06-2010, 12:35 PM
First of all I'd say that the school was wrong for sending them home. It sends a bad message.

With that being said, I do question why these students decided to dress like that on that particular day. If they always dressed like that, okay, I'm with it. No problem. But I doubt that is the case. They were trying to send a message. They probably thought it was going to be funny and didn't care that other people would have a problem with it.

I don't feel like they were victims. Like I said before, the school went too far in sending them home, but they brought that on themselves. They knew that there was going to be some type of back lash and they did it anyways. Sorry, but I can't feel bad for people who bring problems on themselves.

It's probably better that the school sent them home then some pissed off students sending them to the hospital (that statement does not mean that I believe that it is okay for the Mexican students to beat them up, but you know that's coming.)


I think its ridiculous that American kids are sent home, regardless of the reason for wearing a representation of the American flag IN the United States. Awesome for Mexico they celebrate May 5. You do not see Americans of Irish descent wearing green, white and orange flags on St Patricks day. This hyphenating BS is getting beyond ridiculous. Unless those kids were born in mexico, they are not mexican. They are American. Period. Celebrate your heritage, but dont do it at the expense of your nationality.

:Broncos:

Dexter
05-06-2010, 12:35 PM
You never know intent.

Personal I don't care if they wear US Flags on Cinco De Mayo, English Flags on St. Patricks, or Japanese Flags on Pearl Harbor Day.

Some schools will not allow students to wear Red or Blue because of Gang problems.

These are complex times we live in, and things are not always black and white.

Then why take sides? If the matter is so serious, neither should be allowed in school and it should be limited to an out of school activity. Don't celebrate any holidays in school and be consistent with it.

Durango
05-06-2010, 12:38 PM
I disagree with you. There are many Mexican-American people that are proud to be Americans, but also proud of their Mexican Heritage. Same with the Irish, Italians, Puerto Ricans, Native Americans, etc...

Would it be fine to wear a Confederate Flag the day you know people are celebrating Martin Luther King or Black History Month? I mean they are just showing that they are proud of their Southern upringing.

We don't know these kids. They might be wearing these things just to start something.

You can't be serious. This little Mexican holiday is in the same genre as St. Patricks Day. An ethnic celebration that has yet to garner any universal acceptance in the same manner as St. Patricks Day, and displaying the American flag in this country is, or should be acceptable under any circumstances, on any day, in any location.

Beantown Bronco
05-06-2010, 12:38 PM
But why break that out on that day? It's to cause trouble, and now people are running to defend them? They didn't do it to honor their country, they did it to cause problems. That's not how our flag should be used.

I don't know about anyone else, but I support their right to freedom of speech/clothing just as much as I support their right to be beat up if they're being dicks about it.

RMT
05-06-2010, 12:40 PM
First of all I'd say that the school was wrong for sending them home. It sends a bad message.

With that being said, I do question why these students decided to dress like that on that particular day. If they always dressed like that, okay, I'm with it. No problem. But I doubt that is the case. They were trying to send a message. They probably thought it was going to be funny and didn't care that other people would have a problem with it.

I don't feel like they were victims. Like I said before, the school went too far in sending them home, but they brought that on themselves. They knew that there was going to be some type of back lash and they did it anyways. Sorry, but I can't feel bad for people who bring problems on themselves.

It's probably better that the school sent them home then some pissed off students sending them to the hospital (that statement does not mean that I believe that it is okay for the Mexican students to beat them up, but you know that's coming.)

Why should intent matter? It's not an issue when illegals flaunt their lawbreaking/heritage/etc. Why should legal U.S. citizens continually be expected to cowtow to so much blatant disregard for our laws/customs? I see nothing wrong with their behavior.

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 12:42 PM
Then why take sides? If the matter is so serious, neither should be allowed in school and it should be limited to an out of school activity. Don't celebrate any holidays in school and be consistent with it.

I would be ok with that, school is for learning. No religous holidays, no Pledge of Allegance, etc.

Kids are not raised in a vaccum, they are raised in the real world. Teaching kids to respect others should be more important than trying to make a political statement. We all come from different backgrounds and belief systems.

Jason in LA
05-06-2010, 12:43 PM
I don't know about anyone else, but I support their right to freedom of speech/clothing just as much as I support their right to be beat up if they're being ***** about it.

I can agree with this statement. They have every right to wear it, which is why it was wrong to send them home. But an ass kicking was on the way because of the statement that they were making. They were making a statement that they love their country. They were pretty much flipping the bird to the Mexican students.

RMT
05-06-2010, 12:43 PM
Live Oak HS website, http://liveoakhs.ca.campusgrid.net/home

Mr. Rodriguez's email address, miguel.rodriguez@mhu.k12.ca.us

Please be nice - or not ...

Dukes
05-06-2010, 12:46 PM
I can agree with this statement. They have every right to wear it, which is why it was wrong to send them home. But an ass kicking was on the way because of the statement that they were making. They were making a statement that they love their country. They were pretty much flipping the bird to the Mexican students.

Man, I must be on the fringe group because I don't see anything wrong with that. IMO if you love Mexico so much go back.

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 12:47 PM
You can't be serious. This little Mexican holiday is in the same genre as St. Patricks Day. An ethnic celebration that has yet to garner any universal acceptance in the same manner as St. Patricks Day, and displaying the American flag in this country is, or should be acceptable under any circumstances, on any day, in any location.

I agree, Cinco De Mayo and St Patricks are both reasons for people to go out and drink.

Now if I displayed my US Flag upside down on the Forth of July do you think that people would be upset with me?

The Devil is in the details.

Dexter
05-06-2010, 12:48 PM
I would be ok with that, school is for learning. No religous holidays, no Pledge of Allegance, etc.

Kids are not raised in a vaccum, they are raised in the real world. Teaching kids to respect others should be more important than trying to make a political statement. We all come from different backgrounds and belief systems.

And here we agree^5

Jason in LA
05-06-2010, 12:48 PM
Why should intent matter? It's not an issue when illegals flaunt their lawbreaking/heritage/etc. Why should legal U.S. citizens continually be expected to cowtow to so much blatant disregard for our laws/customs? I see nothing wrong with their behavior.

Celebrating Cinco De Mayo is a disregard to our laws/customs? Are you assuming that the Mexican students who complained at the school are illegal? I didn't read that in the story.

TailgateNut
05-06-2010, 12:49 PM
I disagree with you. There are many Mexican-American people that are proud to be Americans, but also proud of their Mexican Heritage. Same with the Irish, Italians, Puerto Ricans, Native Americans, etc...

Would it be fine to wear a Confederate Flag the day you know people are celebrating Martin Luther King or Black History Month? I mean they are just showing that they are proud of their Southern upringing.

We don't know these kids. They might be wearing these things just to start something.

Your analogies are flawed.

How does the rebel flag fit into this scenario?

Would it be ok to wear something with an American flag when people are celebrating Black history month or MLK day?

So, according to your thinking we should avoid displaying our flag on days when people celebrate St. Pattys, Cinco de mayonaise, etc?

I don't think so!

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 12:49 PM
Man, I must be on the fringe group because I don't see anything wrong with that. IMO if you love Mexico so much go back.

What if they never left? For some they didn't cross the border, the border crossed them.

RMT
05-06-2010, 12:51 PM
Celebrating Cinco De Mayo is a disregard to our laws/customs? Are you assuming that the Mexican students who complained at the school are illegal? I didn't read that in the story.

Nope, my point is that there is nothing wrong with them celebrating THEIR holiday provided they respect everyone ELSE'S wish to wear whatever they like. Those in favor of illegal immigration are far more supportive of disrespect and inciting conduct than what these 5 U.S. citizens did. We are far more tolerant of defiant behavior from illegals and those who support it than what they are willing to tolerate. They throw out the race card all of the time, yet when you really look at it from afar, they are the ones being the most racist. Stop trying to read between the lines and putting words in my mouth. You su(k at it.

Dukes
05-06-2010, 12:52 PM
What if they never left? For some they didn't cross the border, the border crossed them.

Guess that makes them native Americans Ha!

TailgateNut
05-06-2010, 12:55 PM
Considering the basis of the US national anthem was based on the survival of the US Flag at Ft McHenry, we take it seriously. As long as its not an actual flag, it doesnt matter if its a tshirt or boxers or a bandana or a flag pin. Its a way for us to display our patriotism. Understanding this makes sense of why some people were upset when Obama would not wear a flag pin or place his hand over his heart during our national anthem.

Dont misunderstand me, I am proud my neighbors display the flag...but I grew up on military bases. That flag was never left hanging up overnight and they played taps when it went up and taps when it came down at 6pm. So it bothers me a bit when I see American flags left outside to the point they start to fall apart. To me that is disrespectful...as is burning the flag as a sign of protest.

:Broncos:


Mine rises with the sun and "comes in" at night.

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 12:56 PM
Your analogies are flawed.

How does the rebel flag fit into this scenario?

Would it be ok to wear something with an American flag when people are celebrating Black history month or MLK day?

So, according to your thinking we should avoid displaying our flag on days when people celebrate St. Pattys, Cinco de mayonaise, etc?

I don't think so!

What?

the rebel flag symbolize slavely to some African American people. So wearing one to a celebration of Black History month would be in bad taste.

You can wear an American Flag whenever you want. The Stars and Stripes is not offensive to the Irish or the African American.

Archer81
05-06-2010, 12:56 PM
What if they never left? For some they didn't cross the border, the border crossed them.


This sentence is ridicules.

If they believe they are Mexican...they should go to Mexico. No one alive today was around in 1848. Tough break Mexico lost that war.


:Broncos:

Durango
05-06-2010, 12:57 PM
I agree, Cinco De Mayo and St Patricks are both reasons for people to go out and drink.

Now if I displayed my US Flag upside down on the Forth of July do you think that people would be upset with me?

The Devil is in the details.

People do this all the time, including peace symbols in place of the stars, stars & stripes underwear, upside down flags to show discontent. But to ban, or, as in this case; bannish display of the flag for any reason in this country is an outrage.

Jason in LA
05-06-2010, 12:58 PM
Man, I must be on the fringe group because I don't see anything wrong with that. IMO if you love Mexico so much go back.

It's kind of like out here in LA inner city schools. At the schools where there are still a number of black students, every year during black history month the black students do something to acknowledge the month. Usually there is some type of program on one day. Nothing big at all. Well at a few schools the Latino kids aren't having it, and they use that one day, which just happens to be the same day that the blacks are celebrating, to show their pride in what every country they are from. And of course it leads to a race riot. Like, where was all that Latino pride the day before? Not to say that the Latinos don't have pride in their heritage, but they choose to put it on display big time at the exact same time that the black students are doing a presentation. They're not doing it to show pride in their heritage, they're doing it to cause a problem.

Like I said a few times now, if these students normally wore the flag and colors, then I'd see no problem at all. But they break it out on Cinco de Mayo and people are supposed to believe that they aren't making a statement? I call BS on that one.

RMT
05-06-2010, 12:59 PM
Guess that makes them native Americans Ha!

what is most humorous is that mexicans act like they are indigenous to mexico when several of them are of Spanish descent, so they have no more right to claim America than what European Americans do. it's a shame mexico doesn't teach history more accurately. of course, we're dealing with a country wrought with poverty and a corrupt government so survival is more significant than getting a good education. especially when they can come to the U.S. and get it for free along with welfare, food stamps, and healthcare. nothing like U.S. taxpayer subsidized benefits for people with no right to be here.

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 01:00 PM
Guess that makes them native Americans Ha!

http://www.emersonkent.com/images/treaty_guadalupe_hidalgo.gif

Rohirrim
05-06-2010, 01:00 PM
First of all I'd say that the school was wrong for sending them home. It sends a bad message.

With that being said, I do question why these students decided to dress like that on that particular day. If they always dressed like that, okay, I'm with it. No problem. But I doubt that is the case. They were trying to send a message. They probably thought it was going to be funny and didn't care that other people would have a problem with it.

I don't feel like they were victims. Like I said before, the school went too far in sending them home, but they brought that on themselves. They knew that there was going to be some type of back lash and they did it anyways. Sorry, but I can't feel bad for people who bring problems on themselves.

It's probably better that the school sent them home then some pissed off students sending them to the hospital (that statement does not mean that I believe that it is okay for the Mexican students to beat them up, but you know that's coming.)

That's odd. I wonder why students of Mexican heritage would feel offended by the showing of Amercan colors on American soil?

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 01:01 PM
People do this all the time, including peace symbols in place of the stars, stars & stripes underwear, upside down flags to show discontent. But to ban, or, as in this case; bannish display of the flag for any reason in this country is an outrage.

Not the question.

Do you think that some people might be upset that I did this?

Jason in LA
05-06-2010, 01:02 PM
Nope, my point is that there is nothing wrong with them celebrating THEIR holiday provided they respect everyone ELSE'S wish to wear whatever they like. Those in favor of illegal immigration are far more supportive of disrespect and inciting conduct than what these 5 U.S. citizens did. We are far more tolerant of defiant behavior from illegals and those who support it than what they are willing to tolerate. They throw out the race card all of the time, yet when you really look at it from afar, they are the ones being the most racist. Stop trying to read between the lines and putting words in my mouth. You su(k at it.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth or read in between the lines. You brought up the illegal immigration point. Where in the story does it say anything about illegal immigration? You're attaching another issue onto this issue.

epicSocialism4tw
05-06-2010, 01:03 PM
http://www.emersonkent.com/images/treaty_guadalupe_hidalgo.gif

Thank goodness Mexico couldnt manage that land back then either, and we ended up with it.

They cant manage their own today.

Dukes
05-06-2010, 01:04 PM
http://www.emersonkent.com/images/treaty_guadalupe_hidalgo.gif

Not sure what your point is. They weren't native to the land any more than europeans were.

TailgateNut
05-06-2010, 01:06 PM
also - out of curiosity - do you guys think American flag boxers, bikinis and the like are disrespectful? As a relative outsider, I think that it is incredibly disrespectful of the flag, and I'm sure most foreigners would agree that it's just weird.

The flag should never be worn as an article of clothing. A piece of clothing with the american flag (emblem) on it is acceptable!

Rohirrim
05-06-2010, 01:06 PM
Celebrating Cinco De Mayo is a disregard to our laws/customs? Are you assuming that the Mexican students who complained at the school are illegal? I didn't read that in the story.

You keep using that phrase "Mexican students." I'm guessing the only way there could be Mexican students at that school is if they are just visiting, like foreign exchange students, or something? And I would imagine foreign exhange students wouldn't take offense to the showing of American colors on American soil. I can't imagine that Mexican-American students would complain about the American colors, unless they have some problem with America, in which case, they can get the **** out. :welcome:

Rohirrim
05-06-2010, 01:07 PM
Not sure what your point is. They weren't native to the land any more than europeans were.

As far as anthropology knows right now, the only country that can claim indiginous humans is Africa. All the rest are immigrants.

Paladin
05-06-2010, 01:08 PM
The liberals will be so proud of this story; exactly what they are striving for, I personally am nauseated by the story

Go buy a fricking vowel assshat. Generalizations like this only serve to display your ignorance, bafoonery and uncouth boorishness.

Dipstick.....

RMT
05-06-2010, 01:08 PM
I'm not trying to put words in your mouth or read in between the lines. You brought up the illegal immigration point. Where in the story does it say anything about illegal immigration? You're attaching another issue onto this issue.

The actions of this principal IS an indirect result of illegal immigration. The exponentially negative impact it is having on our country, economy, job situation, etc. is what has led to things like this to occur. Why should U.S. citizens have to cater to someone's loyalty to ANOTHER country because the other party REFUSES TO ASSIMILATE? We kiss their @$$ all the time and then we're supposed to apologetic? That's sh|t.

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 01:08 PM
Not sure what your point is. They weren't native to the land any more than europeans were.

Point being, That that area was part of Mexico before it was part of the US. That there were Mexicans living there, and if everyone went back to where they came from, the Mexican-Americans wouldn't be going too far.

epicSocialism4tw
05-06-2010, 01:09 PM
That's odd. I wonder why students of Mexican heritage would feel offended by the showing of Amercan colors on American soil?

I went to take pictures at an illegal immigration protest in Dallas a couple of years ago. Things were going fine...people chanting, holding signs, etc. Everything was fine until the people in cars waving mexican flags and yelling obsenities showed up. "La Raza" was heard.

I think that the media needs end this racebaiting. They are dividing people according to race, and not according to the issues. When that happens, you get people who confuse nationality with race.

This issue is clearly not divided by race, it is divided by nationality.

RMT
05-06-2010, 01:10 PM
And, of course, we U.S. patriots will be expected to show our "tolerant" side for this ...
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/06/violent-movie-declares-war-arizona-immigration-law/


- May 06, 2010
Violent Movie Declares War on Arizona for Immigration Law

A violent new film from cult director Robert Rodriguez is declaring war on Arizona with a "special Cinco de Mayo message" in the wake of the state's controversial illegal immigration law.

A violent new film from cult director Robert Rodriguez is declaring war on Arizona with a "special Cinco De Mayo message" in the wake of the state's controversial illegal immigration law.

That message is: "They just f---ed with the wrong Mexican."

"Machete," which features a knife-wielding Mexican assassin out for revenge against double-crossing gringos, won't be in theaters until September, but it is already sparking a political melee over Wednesday's stab at the Grand Canyon State.

In the trailer for the film, the title character is hired to assassinate an anti-immigration U.S. senator played by Robert De Niro. Protesters are seen waving nationalist signs as the senator speaks to a charged-up rally: "We are at war," he booms. "Every time an illegal dances across our border, it is an act of aggression against this sovereign state — an overt act of terrorism."

But before the trailer even begins, the battle-scarred title character stares out from the screen as he tells viewers that what's about to unfold — an immigration-laced slasher grindhouse flick — is about the current border battle in Arizona.

Click here to see the video.

The trailer was released Wednesday, just 24 hours after an envelope filled with a still-undetermined white powder was sent to Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer, temporarily closing the State Capitol in Phoenix. The powder spilled out when a staffer opened it Tuesday morning, sending Hazmat teams scrambling through the governor's offices. No one was sickened, but state police and the FBI are investigating the incident.

It was just the latest development in a debate that is growing more rancorous by the minute.

Some outspoken critics of illegal immigration took umbrage at the movie trailer and its swipe at Arizona, which is the entry point for one-third of all illegal immigrants in the U.S.

"It's pretty ugly out there," said former Colorado Rep. Tom Tancredo, a staunch advocate of tougher immigration laws. "Half the time that's the way all of us are depicted: corrupt, no good, racist."

Tancredo, who served in the House from 1999-2009, said he received "tons of death threats" while in office and frequently wore a bulletproof vest during public speeches. Though the language of the film is nothing new to him, he said he still finds it offensive.

"The racists who made that trailer, they are as racist as anything I have ever seen" from either side of the immigration debate, Tancredo said.

But, he added, "these guys are 'politically correct' racists, so you cannot heap indignities upon them."

In "Machete," the protagonist, played by Danny Trejo, is a former Mexican Federale now looking for work as a day laborer in Texas. He charges $70 a day for yard work, but an oily businessman makes him an offer he can't refuse: $150,000 to take out a senator bent on deporting illegal immigrants.

"As you know, illegal Americans are being forced out of our country at an alarming rate," says the contractor. "For the good of both our people, the senator must die."

The film, which is set to be released Sept. 3, is produced by 20th Century Fox, a production company owned by Fox News' parent company, News Corp.

20th Century Fox said that Rodriguez speaks for himself on political issues. The studio was comfortable with the release of the movie trailer on Cinco De Mayo, but says it has no political stake in the immigration debate.

Representatives for Rodriguez did not return requests for comment. But the head of the production studio handling the international release of the film said "Machete" is a classic grindhouse picture typical of the man who made "Desperado" and "Sin City."

"'Machete' is a Robert Rodriguez movie through and through, wild and wonderful, exactly the kind of exciting and irreverent genre movie that his fans dream about," Ashok Amritraj, CEO of Hyde Park Entertainment, said in an interview with Variety Magazine.

De Niro, playing the senator, fits many familiar tropes about the Southwest: he's a gun-toting, Stetson hat-wearing, flag pin-blazing cowboy from Texas.

He and Trejo are joined by a number of stars: Cheech Marin plays a shotgun-shooting warrior priest, Lindsay Lohan plays the senator's Patty Hearst-like daughter and Don Johnson, as a sheriff, growls that "there's nothing I'd like more than to see more than that Mexican dance the bolero at the end of a rope."

Jessica Alba, a border patrol agent, rallies a group of laborers while crying, "We didn't cross the border — the border crossed us!"

Tancredo, who argued that the film should not be distributed at all, said he wasn't worried the movie would incite any violence, but that its political message was clear.

"I think it is a true reflection of exactly who these people are and what they think about America," he said.

TailgateNut
05-06-2010, 01:11 PM
It's kind of like out here in LA inner city schools. At the schools where there are still a number of black students, every year during black history month the black students do something to acknowledge the month. Usually there is some type of program on one day. Nothing big at all. Well at a few schools the Latino kids aren't having it, and they use that one day, which just happens to be the same day that the blacks are celebrating, to show their pride in what every country they are from. And of course it leads to a race riot. Like, where was all that Latino pride the day before? Not to say that the Latinos don't have pride in their heritage, but they choose to put it on display big time at the exact same time that the black students are doing a presentation. They're not doing it to show pride in their heritage, they're doing it to cause a problem.

Like I said a few times now, if these students normally wore the flag and colors, then I'd see no problem at all. But they break it out on Cinco de Mayo and people are supposed to believe that they aren't making a statement? I call BS on that one.

So ****ing what, if they are making a statement? The are making the statement that they are proud to be american and that if you want to celebrate some BS cinco de mayo we have the right to celebrate our heritage.

**** this ****.
****ing justifying this crap is ANTI AMERICAN!

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 01:11 PM
The actions of this principal IS an indirect result of illegal immigration. The exponentially negative impact it is having on our country, economy, job situation, etc. is what has led to things like this to occur. Why should U.S. citizens have to cater to someone's loyalty to ANOTHER country because the other party REFUSES TO ASSIMILATE? We kiss their @$$ all the time and then we're supposed to apologetic? That's sh|t.

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
' With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Rohirrim
05-06-2010, 01:11 PM
Point being, That that area was part of Mexico before it was part of the US. That there were Mexicans living there, and if everyone went back to where they came from, the Mexican-Americans wouldn't be going too far.

It was part of Spain before that and owned by a whole variety of American Indian tribes before that. Does Spain still consider that Mexico, or some part of Mexico, belongs to them? Or France? Does Louisiana belong to France? If the Mexicans really believe the SW of the United States still belongs to them, why don't they raise an army and take it back?

Durango
05-06-2010, 01:13 PM
Not the question.

Do you think that some people might be upset that I did this?

Some people? Sure. Not me. I served in the Coast Guard. The upside flag represents nothing more to me than a signal for distress. Banning the display of the flag is what I have a problem with, and to equate this situation with the incendiary flaunting of the Confederate flag is ignorant considering the profound negative implications and historical context. Not even the same universe.

The only proper place the Mexican national flag has in this country is flying above their consulate or embassy.

Irish Stout
05-06-2010, 01:14 PM
The flag should never be worn as an article of clothing. A piece of clothing with the american flag (emblem) on it is acceptable!

One of my favorite ties is an american flag tie - made to look like its a flag all wrapped up and waiving and such, but of course its just the stitching and print, not an actual flag.

TailgateNut
05-06-2010, 01:15 PM
I agree, Cinco De Mayo and St Patricks are both reasons for people to go out and drink.

Now if I displayed my US Flag upside down on the Forth of July do you think that people would be upset with me?

The Devil is in the details.

First of all, it's Fourth of July.

...and if you display your flag upside down it signals distress, and if I come to help and you're not distressed, you will be!:~ohyah!:

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 01:15 PM
It was part of Spain before that and owned by a whole variety of American Indian tribes before that. Does Spain still consider that Mexico, or some part of Mexico, belongs to them? Or France? Does Louisiana belong to France? If the Mexicans really believe the SW of the United States still belongs to them, why don't they raise an army and take it back?

Not to go too far into it, but Mexicans are part Native American and Part Spaniard.

Beantown Bronco
05-06-2010, 01:17 PM
First of all, it's Fourth of July.

...and if you display your flag upside down it signals distress, and if I come to help and you're not distressed, you will be!:~ohyah!:

I hung the flag upside down on my work desk this morning. All the tacos and Dos Equis I had for dinner last night caused quite a bit of intestinal distress.

Rohirrim
05-06-2010, 01:17 PM
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
' With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

At least until the demise of
our current industrial revolution then!
not so much.

Jason in LA
05-06-2010, 01:18 PM
Bottom line, don't do something that could lead to you getting your ass beat, and then play the victim role. The school sent them home because of the fear of those 5 students getting their asses beat. Like I said before, the school shouldn't have done it, but lets not champion these students cause. They were looking for trouble and the school stepped in and stopped it before they found trouble.

TailgateNut
05-06-2010, 01:18 PM
I hung the flag upside down on my work desk this morning. All the tacos and Dos Equis I had for dinner last night caused quite a bit of intestinal distress.

Someone should have come and given AIDS (err: aid).:rofl:

TailgateNut
05-06-2010, 01:19 PM
Bottom line, don't do something that could lead to you getting your ass beat, and then play the victim role. The school sent them home because of the fear of those 5 students getting their asses beat. Like I said before, the school shouldn't have done it, but lets not champion these students cause. They were looking for trouble and the school stepped in and stopped it before they found trouble.

Horse****!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-06-2010, 01:20 PM
Horse****!

Uh... good point?

RMT
05-06-2010, 01:25 PM
Bottom line, don't do something that could lead to you getting your ass beat, and then play the victim role. The school sent them home because of the fear of those 5 students getting their asses beat. Like I said before, the school shouldn't have done it, but lets not champion these students cause. They were looking for trouble and the school stepped in and stopped it before they found trouble.

but if the roles had been reversed and something had happened to the mexican students, then everyone would be playing the race card and defending their RIGHT to wear whatever they wish to school.

in this instance it's the fault of the white students for having the *gasp* AUDACITY to display their patriotism on the same day as may 5th. so what - that's their right. was it inciteful? probably. but if the situation had been flipped, then we'd be hearing everyone defend the rights of the mexican students. what a pathetic double standard. no wonder our country is overrun with illegals.

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 01:26 PM
Some people? Sure. Not me. I served in the Coast Guard. The upside flag represents nothing more to me than a signal for distress. Banning the display of the flag is what I have a problem with, and to equate this situation with the incendiary flaunting of the Confederate flag is ignorant considering the profound negative implications and historical context. Not even the same universe.

The only proper place the Mexican national flag has in this country is flying above their consulate or embassy.

I am not talking Banning, I am talking about people being upset over a political action.

I don't care if someone flies any flag upside down, burns it, or wipes with it. I do understand that some take it very personally if they see someone do so, and that is why I wouldn't did it. I respect other peoples believes and try not to do purposely offend them.

I served in the US Army, my brother in the Navy and my Father in the Marines. So I understand Nationalism. I wouldn't wear an American flag at any time, or any other flag. I am a little bit more complex and independant to complete hook my wagon to any one governing idea.

Rohirrim
05-06-2010, 01:28 PM
Bottom line, don't do something that could lead to you getting your ass beat, and then play the victim role. The school sent them home because of the fear of those 5 students getting their asses beat. Like I said before, the school shouldn't have done it, but lets not champion these students cause. They were looking for trouble and the school stepped in and stopped it before they found trouble.

Sometimes, you've got to stand up and make a point. Regardless. Maybe these kids were making that point. Good for them. Too much of this PC bull**** going around. Maybe they got sick of having it shoved down their throats by the pathetic wimps in this school administration? "Oh dear, the illegal immigrant students might get upset if we wave our flag!" This is the United States. If some people don't like it, they should pack up and get the **** out instead of trying to turn this into some kind of quasi-Mexico. If they don't want to see the American flag on Cinco de Mayo they should go celebrate Cinco de Mayo in Mexico. They lost a war over a hundred and fifty years ago. Time to accept the results. This is the United States. South of the border is Mexico. Choose which one you would like to be a citizen of and make your peace.

Why don't I see Mexicans marching in the streets of Mexico City when their government locks up illegal aliens from Guatemala for a year? I'll tell you why. Because Mexican soldiers would shoot them dead. What would happen to me if I went into the streets of Guadalajara and started waving an American flag? A line needs to be drawn and our government is too gutless to draw it.

epicSocialism4tw
05-06-2010, 01:30 PM
Bottom line, don't do something that could lead to you getting your ass beat, and then play the victim role. The school sent them home because of the fear of those 5 students getting their asses beat. Like I said before, the school shouldn't have done it, but lets not champion these students cause. They were looking for trouble and the school stepped in and stopped it before they found trouble.

I doubt it had anything to do with that benevolent principal's concern for the well-being of those kids.

Its political statement time.

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 01:31 PM
Sometimes, you've got to stand up and make a point. Regardless. Maybe these kids were making that point. Good for them. Too much of this PC bull**** going around. Maybe they got sick of having it shoved down their throats by the pathetic wimps in this school administration? "Oh dear, the illegal immigrant students might get upset if we wave our flag!" This is the United States. If some people don't like it, they should pack up and get the **** out instead of trying to turn this into some kind of quasi-Mexico. If they don't want to see the American flag on Cinco de Mayo they should go celebrate Cinco de Mayo in Mexico. They lost a war over a hundred and fifty years ago. Time to accept the results. This is the United States. South of the border is Mexico. Choose which one you would like to be a citizen of and make your peace.

Why don't I see Mexicans marching in the streets of Mexico City when their government locks up illegal aliens from Guatemala for a year? I'll tell you why. Because Mexican soldiers would shoot them dead. What would happen to me if I went into the streets of Guadalajara and started waving an American flag? A line needs to be drawn and our government is too gutless to draw it.

Because Might makes right!!!! While we are at it we should kick out the Blacks, Jews and Catholics.

SportinOne
05-06-2010, 01:32 PM
Quote:
<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset;"> Originally Posted by UberBroncoMan http://www.orangemane.com/BB/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=2835215#post2835215)
Christ. It's the ****ing United States. If you can't deal with our flag and you live here get the **** out.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
this (is the motto of the mentally challenged).

UberBroncoMan
05-06-2010, 01:32 PM
Not to go too far into it, but Mexicans are part Native American and Part Spaniard.

Actually... part North East Asian, and part Spaniard :P.

UberBroncoMan
05-06-2010, 01:33 PM
Quote:
<table width="100%" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td class="alt2" style="border: 1px inset;"> Originally Posted by UberBroncoMan http://www.orangemane.com/BB/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=2835215#post2835215)
Christ. It's the ****ing United States. If you can't deal with our flag and you live here get the **** out.
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>
this (is the motto of the mentally challenged).

Unless you tell me you're Mexican, have multiple relatives in Mexico, and know what it means to immigrate legally (like I can), you can shut the **** up.

Dukes
05-06-2010, 01:34 PM
Because Might makes right!!!! While we are at it we should kick out the Blacks, Jews and Catholics.

If they are here illegally and doing nothing towards becoming citizens sure. Good point though.....

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 01:34 PM
Actually... part North East Asian, and part Spaniard :P.

Depending on what timeframe you want to go by.

SportinOne
05-06-2010, 01:36 PM
Bottom line, don't do something that could lead to you getting your ass beat, and then play the victim role. The school sent them home because of the fear of those 5 students getting their asses beat. Like I said before, the school shouldn't have done it, but lets not champion these students cause. They were looking for trouble and the school stepped in and stopped it before they found trouble.

Probably the most level-headed post so far.

why is it that the it's usually the worst of our citizens who are so gung-ho about our country? Oh yeah, because they have the freedom to be complete scum on a variety of levels.

Rohirrim
05-06-2010, 01:37 PM
Because Might makes right!!!! While we are at it we should kick out the Blacks, Jews and Catholics.

Really, that's the dumb **** analogy you want to draw? So, African-Americans, Jews and Catholics are opposed to us displaying the American flag? I must have missed that.

Durango
05-06-2010, 01:40 PM
I am not talking Banning, I am talking about people being upset over a political action.

I don't care if someone flies any flag upside down, burns it, or wipes with it. I do understand that some take it very personally if they see someone do so, and that is why I wouldn't did it. I respect other peoples believes and try not to do purposely offend them.

I served in the US Army, my brother in the Navy and my Father in the Marines. So I understand Nationalism. I wouldn't wear an American flag at any time, or any other flag. I am a little bit more complex and independant to complete hook my wagon to any one governing idea.

Well, that's where you and I differ. I'm proud and protective of the flag of my country and feel displaying it respectfully in this country is acceptable anywhere, under any conditions.

It has absolutely nothing to do with nationalism, per se. It's about identity, and if your identity is with another country, you should live there and make that country better.

The very idea that the display of the American flag in an American school would be considered offensive to somebody is, in itself, grossly offensive to me, and I feel this principal should be severely reprimanded.

Rohirrim
05-06-2010, 01:40 PM
Probably the most level-headed post so far.

why is it that the it's usually the worst of our citizens who are so gung-ho about our country? Oh yeah, because they have the freedom to be complete scum on a variety of levels.

Yeah, no kidding. If my kid goes to school wearing an American flag on his clothing I just hope some Mexican kids kick his ass and straighten him out. Cause, gosh darn it, that's what liberty is all about.

SportinOne
05-06-2010, 01:41 PM
Unless you tell me you're Mexican, have multiple relatives in Mexico, and know what it means to immigrate legally (like I can), you can shut the **** up.

i don't see what this has to do with my post. i just think that people who buy into "love it or leave it" are foolish.

Rohirrim
05-06-2010, 01:44 PM
Well, that's where you and I differ. I'm proud and protective of the flag of my country and feel displaying it respectfully in this country is acceptable anywhere, under any conditions.

It has absolutely nothing to do with nationalism, per se. It's about identity, and if your identity is with another country, you should live there and make that country better.

The very idea that the display of the American flag in an American school would be considered offensive to somebody is, in itself, grossly offensive to me, and I feel this principal should be severely reprimanded.

Bingo. What the PC morons believe is that anything that could possibly be offensive in any way possible to anybody at any time should be totally prohibited. I mean, we don't want to upset anybody if we can possibly help it. Do we? Their feelings would be hurt. It might cause trauma. They might require therapy for life.

Let's all become teletubbies. Ha!

SportinOne
05-06-2010, 01:44 PM
Yeah, no kidding. If my kid goes to school wearing an American flag on his clothing I just hope some Mexican kids kick his ass and straighten him out. Cause, gosh darn it, that's what liberty is all about.

You are oversimplifying the situation and i find it hard to believe that you are incapable of understanding, rather you are just cutting corners in an effort to prove your point and feel good about yourself.

it's the internet, everyone does it. just don't get upset when someone calls you on it... like now.

SportinOne
05-06-2010, 01:47 PM
Bingo. What the PC morons believe is that anything that could possibly be offensive in any way possible to anybody at any time should be totally prohibited. I mean, we don't want to upset anybody if we can possibly help it. Do we? Their feelings would be hurt. It might cause trauma. They might require therapy for life.

Let's all become teletubbies. Ha!

translation: i'm a manly man and don't perscribe to feelin's and what not, it's a dog eat dog world errmm hmmm, and i dont' want to think about things more than meets the eye cuz it makes ma brain get all warm.

Rohirrim
05-06-2010, 01:48 PM
i don't see what this has to do with my post. i just think that people who buy into "love it or leave it" are foolish.

So you believe that at no point whatsoever should anybody stand up for their country, or the symbols of their country? Patriotism, or "nationalism" if you prefer, is completely declasse, and no right thinking intellectual would ever indulge in such baseness of character?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-06-2010, 01:52 PM
So you believe that at no point whatsoever should anybody stand up for their country, or the symbols of their country? Patriotism, or "nationalism" if you prefer, is completely declasse, and no right thinking intellectual would ever indulge in such baseness of character?

Standing up for one's country and "love it or leave it" are two completely different things. You CAN in fact have one without the other.

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 01:55 PM
Really, that's the dumb **** analogy you want to draw? So, African-Americans, Jews and Catholics are opposed to us displaying the American flag? I must have missed that.

I said nothing about displaying the flag. I am saying... That you believe that if you are in the Majority that your opinion has to be correct. That you think that it is ok to steamroll others points of view because they are not the same as yours.

You must realize that there are places in the US that hold government meetings in Spanish only. Places in the US that being able to speak and write in Spanish are needed to get a job.

We have the right to be whatever we choose to be. If you want to waive a Nazi Flag on Hannukkah, you can.

What makes this country great is that it provides opportunites for everyone to succeed. You can change the laws and try to fight back, but eventually you will see that you can not hold back someone who is trying to provide for their family, practice their religon, and/or wants to be free.

I personally admire immgrants. They come here, for whatever reason, and they get dumbed on by the ancestors of those same types of people. Takes a strong willed person to do whatever it takes to reach their goals.

Archer81
05-06-2010, 02:02 PM
I personally admire immgrants. They come here, for whatever reason, and they get dumbed on by the ancestors of those same types of people. Takes a strong willed person to do whatever it takes to reach their goals.


I too admire legal immigrants. I dont give a flying **** where somebody comes from. They put the time and effort to become American, and I welcome them to our country.

I do not accept illegal immigrants, and do not believe rewarding law breaking with citizenship is the best line of thought. I do not care how strong willed or goal oriented an illegal alien might be. Get out and do it legally.

:Broncos:

Archer81
05-06-2010, 02:03 PM
You must realize that there are places in the US that hold government meetings in Spanish only. Places in the US that being able to speak and write in Spanish are needed to get a job.

We have the right to be whatever we choose to be. If you want to waive a Nazi Flag on Hannukkah, you can.


English is the language of the United States, not spanish. Learning english wont kill anybody...especially if they are moving to a country that predominantly speaks english...crazy thought, I know.


:Broncos:

Durango
05-06-2010, 02:06 PM
I said nothing about displaying the flag. I am saying... That you believe that if you are in the Majority that your opinion has to be correct. That you think that it is ok to steamroll others points of view because they are not the same as yours.

You must realize that there are places in the US that hold government meetings in Spanish only. Places in the US that being able to speak and write in Spanish are needed to get a job.

We have the right to be whatever we choose to be. If you want to waive a Nazi Flag on Hannukkah, you can.

What makes this country great is that it provides opportunites for everyone to succeed. You can change the laws and try to fight back, but eventually you will see that you can not hold back someone who is trying to provide for their family, practice their religon, and/or wants to be free.

I personally admire immgrants. They come here, for whatever reason, and they get dumbed on by the ancestors of those same types of people. Takes a strong willed person to do whatever it takes to reach their goals.

I admire immigrants too. It's takes some serious courage to uproot from your homeland and seek out opportunity elsewhere. That's why there are legal procedures to facilitate this. If done illegally, it's an affront to the host country, saying in essence, your laws don't matter. I want what I want. That's not immigration, it's invasion, and in my opinion, should be treated as such.

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 02:09 PM
English is the language of the United States, not spanish. Learning english wont kill anybody...especially if they are moving to a country that predominantly speaks english...crazy thought, I know.


:Broncos:

English is not the Offical language of the United States. Crazy right?

Archer81
05-06-2010, 02:10 PM
English is not the Offical language of the United States. Crazy right?


Should be.


:Broncos:

SportinOne
05-06-2010, 02:11 PM
So you believe that at no point whatsoever should anybody stand up for their country, or the symbols of their country? Patriotism, or "nationalism" if you prefer, is completely declasse, and no right thinking intellectual would ever indulge in such baseness of character?

going back to what i actually said, and ignoring your classic attempt to reveal me as unpatriotic, what i mean by the fact that i don't prescribe to "love it or leave it" is that i think it is foolish to ignore the prospect of progress especially when it's done by one group for the purpose of maintaining their advantage over one or multiple others. your statement of "if you can't handle the flag gtfo" (and i'm assuming what the flag stands for) is what prompted that thought.

In regard to the kids wearing the us flag gear, do you honestly think they were honoring their country or do you think it had more to do with them instigating? of course, they will always have their patriotism to fall back on and justify their stupid behavior with. kids are very good at things like this.

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 02:12 PM
I admire immigrants too. It's takes some serious courage to uproot from your homeland and seek out opportunity elsewhere. That's why there are legal procedures to facilitate this. If done illegally, it's an affront to the host country, saying in essence, your laws don't matter. I want what I want. That's not immigration, it's invasion, and in my opinion, should be treated as such.

What if you don't have the means or time to go thru the process, which could take up to 2 years, if not longer?

Inkana7
05-06-2010, 02:12 PM
Should be.


:Broncos:

But it's not. And never will be.

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 02:13 PM
Should be.


:Broncos:

But it isn't. So if there is no offical language, who is to say which language should be spoken?

Archer81
05-06-2010, 02:13 PM
What if you don't have the means or time to go thru the process, which could take up to 2 years, if not longer?


So break the law and then protest when you dont get amnesty?


:Broncos:

SportinOne
05-06-2010, 02:13 PM
Should be.


:Broncos:


but it's not.. and your post above about doing things legally would indicate that you believe in the power of your government to make the right decisions. so i'm having trouble understanding your objection.

Beantown Bronco
05-06-2010, 02:15 PM
What if you don't have the means or time to go thru the process, which could take up to 2 years, if not longer?

Find another goal to achieve. Don't break the law.

It might take me two years to save up for that television I really want. I don't have that kind of time. I guess I'll simply break into Best Buy and grab one instead.

epicSocialism4tw
05-06-2010, 02:16 PM
i don't see what this has to do with my post. i just think that people who buy into "love it or leave it" are foolish.

We appreciate what we have here. Americans always have.

Assimilate and join us, or find somewhere else to live. Simple, really. Its like anything else...if you dont want to be there, then go somewhere else.

Archer81
05-06-2010, 02:16 PM
But it isn't. So if there is no offical language, who is to say which language should be spoken?


I dont know...290 million people speak english in this country. Our books are in english. Money is printed in english. government is conducted in english, banking and commerce is conducted in english, entertainment is in english...founding documents are in english...

You are completely right. There is no reason at all why we should make English the official language of the country.


:Broncos:

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 02:17 PM
So break the law and then protest when you dont get amnesty?


:Broncos:

If they were Cuban, they would automatically be granted political asylum once they touched US soil.

If the law is flawed and unjust, I say yes break it.

Rigs11
05-06-2010, 02:17 PM
love how everyone gets all riled up, same shet happened here in colorado yesterday. kids were suspended but they were wearing mexican flags on cinco de mayo.still fail to understand how many around here can proclaim that the US is the greatest country on earth without failing to see that diversity is part of what makes it so great.

http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-flag-suspensions-050510,0,855344.story

Archer81
05-06-2010, 02:18 PM
but it's not.. and your post above about doing things legally would indicate that you believe in the power of your government to make the right decisions. so i'm having trouble understanding your objection.


To? English being the official language?


:Broncos:

mkporter
05-06-2010, 02:18 PM
Sometimes, you've got to stand up and make a point. Regardless. Maybe these kids were making that point. Good for them. Too much of this PC bull**** going around. Maybe they got sick of having it shoved down their throats by the pathetic wimps in this school administration? "Oh dear, the illegal immigrant students might get upset if we wave our flag!" This is the United States. If some people don't like it, they should pack up and get the **** out instead of trying to turn this into some kind of quasi-Mexico. If they don't want to see the American flag on Cinco de Mayo they should go celebrate Cinco de Mayo in Mexico. They lost a war over a hundred and fifty years ago. Time to accept the results. This is the United States. South of the border is Mexico. Choose which one you would like to be a citizen of and make your peace.

Why don't I see Mexicans marching in the streets of Mexico City when their government locks up illegal aliens from Guatemala for a year? I'll tell you why. Because Mexican soldiers would shoot them dead. What would happen to me if I went into the streets of Guadalajara and started waving an American flag? A line needs to be drawn and our government is too gutless to draw it.

I'll start by saying that the principal was wrong. These kids should not have been sent home. But you know that these kids wore American flag clothing not to celebrate America, but to say "we are better than you." They are teenage boys, and it is pretty likely that they are looking to make a statement. In my opinion, that is well within their right, and I agree that the United States is a better place to live than Mexico, but it is job #1 of any principal to keep kids safe. If he feels that these kids are creating a situation that could lead to violence, and he doesn't intervene, then he is not doing his job. The principal choose the wrong course of action, but probably for the right reasons.

Durango
05-06-2010, 02:19 PM
What if you don't have the means or time to go thru the process, which could take up to 2 years, if not longer?

Then the question would be; why? American immigration law makes allowances for urgency or political necessity. Again, in most cases of illegal immigration, it's a case of I want what I want and to hell with your laws.

We are a country of laws. We can't choose to follow the ones we like and ignore the ones we don't. If you do, there are consequences, and in the case of illegal immigration, the consequence should be, and is, deportation.

UberBroncoMan
05-06-2010, 02:19 PM
love how everyone gets all riled up, same shet happened here in colorado yesterday. kids were suspended but they were wearing mexican flags on cinco de mayo.still fail to understand how many around here can proclaim that the US is the greatest country on earth without failing to see that diversity is part of what makes it so great.

http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-flag-suspensions-050510,0,855344.story

Obsessing over diversity and favoritism with diversity (hiring people based on looks/celebrating the same thing) hinders our progression as a human race.

Did you read the article btw?

"These kids were not necessarily disciplined because of what they were celebrating. They were suspended because they were rude," said Denver Public Schools spokesman Alex Sanchez. "They were using vulgar language and they were not in class when they were supposed to be in class."

Sounds like some a-hole punks to me.

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 02:20 PM
Find another goal to achieve. Don't break the law.

It might take me two years to save up for that television I really want. I don't have that kind of time. I guess I'll simply break into Best Buy and grab one instead.

But stealing land from the Native Americans is fine, because there was a law that said it was ok?

I see an unjust law as no law at all.

Beantown Bronco
05-06-2010, 02:20 PM
If the law is flawed and unjust, I say yes break it.

You can't really believe that.

Ask enough people and you'll eventually come across enough to come to the conclusion that every law is flawed and unjust to someone.

Archer81
05-06-2010, 02:21 PM
If they were Cuban, they would automatically be granted political asylum once they touched US soil.

If the law is flawed and unjust, I say yes break it.


They are not Cuban. Tough for them. Maybe they should immigrate to Cuba, then get on a rickety boat and float for the keys.

So explain to me how the law is just and fair to people who engage in immigration to this country legally but unjust for those who hop a fence?


:Broncos:

Beantown Bronco
05-06-2010, 02:21 PM
But stealing land from the Native Americans is fine, because there was a law that said it was ok?

I see an unjust law as no law at all.

Law and war are two different things.

epicSocialism4tw
05-06-2010, 02:21 PM
English is not the Offical language of the United States. Crazy right?

There has never really been the need to establish that institutionally because it has been understood.

Archer81
05-06-2010, 02:22 PM
But stealing land from the Native Americans is fine, because there was a law that said it was ok?

I see an unjust law as no law at all.


Can't steal what is not owned.


:Broncos:

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 02:23 PM
Then the question would be; why? American immigration law makes allowances for urgency or political necessity. Again, in most cases of illegal immigration, it's a case of I want what I want and to hell with your laws.

We are a country of laws. We can't choose to follow the ones we like and ignore the ones we don't. If you do, there are consequences, and in the case of illegal immigration, the consequence should be, and is, deportation.

Deportation doesn't work. Building a fence doesn't work. If there is a will, there is a way.

Making it harder to become a citizen or stay in this country only fuels the Jackels that prey upon these people that are desperate to be here.

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 02:24 PM
Can't steal what is not owned.


:Broncos:

So you are fine with immigration? Good. I thought you were against it.

Tombstone RJ
05-06-2010, 02:25 PM
love how everyone gets all riled up, same shet happened here in colorado yesterday. kids were suspended but they were wearing mexican flags on cinco de mayo.still fail to understand how many around here can proclaim that the US is the greatest country on earth without failing to see that diversity is part of what makes it so great.

http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-flag-suspensions-050510,0,855344.story

I guess you didn't read the story. You posted it, but you didn't read it. The kids were sent home due to their behavior, the school principle is hispanic and all the classes had mexican flag stuff in the classroom.

Archer81
05-06-2010, 02:27 PM
Deportation doesn't work. Building a fence doesn't work. If there is a will, there is a way.

Making it harder to become a citizen or stay in this country only fuels the Jackels that prey upon these people that are desperate to be here.


You know if they have the money to pay the "coyotes" that run these fools across the border...they could apply for US work visas from American consulates and engage in the immigration process legally.

You are arguing unjust law when it seems to be a matter of laziness on illegal's part.

:Broncos:

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 02:28 PM
Law and war are two different things.

Did you forget that the US signed and broke more laws(Treaties) with the natives then I would ever care to count? There weren't wars, there was only genocide and murder.

Archer81
05-06-2010, 02:29 PM
So you are fine with immigration? Good. I thought you were against it.


You continually assert that people have a problem with immigration. Most dont.

You conveniently leave out the "illegal" part. You can bitch and cry about native americans or borders crossing people, but this is reality. In reality, crossing an international border for work or to live without the proper documentation is a crime commited against the host country.

:Broncos:

Archer81
05-06-2010, 02:30 PM
There weren't wars, there was only genocide and murder.


So...where are the mass graves of dead natives?


:Broncos:

mkporter
05-06-2010, 02:30 PM
You know if they have the money to pay the "coyotes" that run these fools across the border...they could apply for US work visas from American consulates and engage in the immigration process legally.

You are arguing unjust law when it seems to be a matter of laziness on illegal's part.

:Broncos:

Maybe the US government should hire the coyotes and have them run the illegals the other direction. :sunshine:

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 02:30 PM
You know if they have the money to pay the "coyotes" that run these fools across the border...they could apply for US work visas from American consulates and engage in the immigration process legally.

You are arguing unjust law when it seems to be a matter of laziness on illegal's part.

:Broncos:

And you are confusing desperation with laziness.

Durango
05-06-2010, 02:32 PM
Deportation doesn't work. Building a fence doesn't work. If there is a will, there is a way.

Making it harder to become a citizen or stay in this country only fuels the Jackels that prey upon these people that are desperate to be here.

Desperate, why? Mexico isn't the Sudan. They have a democracy, more specifically a republic but that becomes another debate altogether, complex economy, ample resources, high education. America offers more opportunity, sure. Is opportunity a degree of desperation?

Rigs11
05-06-2010, 02:32 PM
Obsessing over diversity and favoritism with diversity (hiring people based on looks/celebrating the same thing) hinders our progression as a human race.

Did you read the article btw?

"These kids were not necessarily disciplined because of what they were celebrating. They were suspended because they were rude," said Denver Public Schools spokesman Alex Sanchez. "They were using vulgar language and they were not in class when they were supposed to be in class."

Sounds like some a-hole punks to me.

so the principal in the first case said he didn't want fights to break out between the kids wearing american clothing and the kids wearing mexican clothing. Did those kids wear the american flag clothing all the time or were they wearing it to get a reaction on cinco de mayo?

the second case the kids wearing the mexican clothing were being rude. Were they also trying to get a reaction?

More similar than you think. yet you instantly turn it into a us versus them mentality.

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 02:34 PM
So...where are the mass graves of dead natives?


:Broncos:

Ok:thumbs:

Archer81
05-06-2010, 02:34 PM
And you are confusing desperation with laziness.


No, its laziness.

Or fear they could be rejected because of a lack of education or any labor skills. You know, requirements needed to become a citizen and actually add to the society at large.


:Broncos:

SportinOne
05-06-2010, 02:34 PM
Did you forget that the US signed and broke more laws(Treaties) with the natives then I would ever care to count? There weren't wars, there was only genocide and murder.

Nuh uh! We made friends with the indians and shared foods and recipes and then we had the thanksgiving feast and us and the indians sat down and watched football on tv together. they were so impressed by our intelligence and work ethic that they gave us the land and said, "Do with us what you will."

Oh, and to the guy who compared living in the united states over mexico to having a new tv... you're a complete ****ing moron. i hope you made that up on the spot and haven't been flipping that one out there around the campfire with your idiot friends for the last 10 years.

Archer81
05-06-2010, 02:35 PM
Ok:thumbs:


You said genocide.

So clearly there was a concerted effort by the US government to exterminate every American Native from canada to the rio grande.

So, where are the mass graves of dead natives?

:Broncos:

Rigs11
05-06-2010, 02:35 PM
They are not Cuban. Tough for them. Maybe they should immigrate to Cuba, then get on a rickety boat and float for the keys.

So explain to me how the law is just and fair to people who engage in immigration to this country legally but unjust for those who hop a fence?


:Broncos:

there is a 9 year wait on legal immigration. there is no wait on illegal immigration.Which would you choose?

Archer81
05-06-2010, 02:37 PM
there is a 9 year wait on legal immigration. there is no wait on illegal immigration.Which would you choose?


Legal. You know, so I dont have to worry about being deported, or left in a desert to die, or having to carry drugs into the country.

:Broncos:

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 02:37 PM
Desperate, why? Mexico isn't the Sudan. They have a democracy, more specifically a republic but that becomes another debate altogether, complex economy, ample resources, high education. America offers more opportunity, sure. Is opportunity a degree of desperation?

The body count in Mexico stood at 5,400 slayings in 2008, more than double the 2,477 reported in 2007, officials said, with over 1400 in Ciudad Juárez alone. The population of Ciudad Juárez had to change their daily routine and many try to stay home in the evening hours. Public life is almost paralyzed out of fear of being kidnapped or hit by a stray bullet. On 20 February 2009, the U.S. State Department announced in an updated travel alert that "Mexican authorities report that more than 1,800 people have been killed in the city since January 2008." On 12 March 2009, police found "at least seven" partially buried bodies in the outskirts of the city, close to the US-Mexican border. Five severed heads were discovered in ice boxes, along with notes to rivals in the drug-wars. Beheadings, attacks on the police and shootings are common in some regions.In September 2009, 18 patients at a drug rehabilitation clinic called El Aliviane were massacred in a turf battle. Patients were lined up in the corridor and gunned down in the early evening. On September 3, 2009 the Associated Press reported that the day before gunmen broke down the door of the El Aliviane drug rehabilitation center and lined their victims up to a wall shooting 17 dead. The authorities had no immediate suspects or information on the victims. Plagued by corruption and the assassination of many of its officers, the government is struggling to maintain Ciudad Juárez's police force. Other police have quit the force out of fear of being targeted. In late 2008 one murder victim was found near a school hanging from a fence with a pig's mask on his face and another one was found beheaded hanging from a bridge in one of the busier streets of the city.

SportinOne
05-06-2010, 02:37 PM
To? English being the official language?


:Broncos:

Do you have an objection to the US not naming English the official language. As already covered, it's not. So i'm assuming you, as a law abiding citizen and defender of the flag, are on board with this.

Rigs11
05-06-2010, 02:38 PM
Legal. You know, so I dont have to worry about being deported, or left in a desert to die, or having to carry drugs into the country.

:Broncos:

wow, brilliant. 9 years when your family is starving.carry drugs to who?

SportinOne
05-06-2010, 02:39 PM
You said genocide.

So clearly there was a concerted effort by the US government to exterminate every American Native from canada to the rio grande.

So, where are the mass graves of dead natives?

:Broncos:

Are you really trying to argue this? Have you taken a history class beyond 9th grade?

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 02:40 PM
You said genocide.

So clearly there was a concerted effort by the US government to exterminate every American Native from canada to the rio grande.

So, where are the mass graves of dead natives?

:Broncos:

So you are saying that the US Government in fact did not have the Army kill whole tribes of Native Americans?

You also believe that if there isn't a mass grave that there is no evidence?

:thumbs:

Archer81
05-06-2010, 02:40 PM
Do you have an objection to the US not naming English the official language. As already covered, it's not. So i'm assuming you, as a law abiding citizen and defender of the flag, are on board with this.


No, I dont have an objection to it not being the official language. I think as you mentioned earlier, its understood that english is the primary language of the country.

If at any time US states begin to operate exclusively in a language that is not english, making english the official language will have to be considered if the country values national unity.

:Broncos:

dbfan4life
05-06-2010, 02:40 PM
Cinco de Mayo, as I understand it, is bareley celebrated in Mexico! It is commonly misinterpreted as Mexican Independance day which it isn't. September 16 is their Independance Day. Again, as I understand it, it was the day that Mexican and Americans troops defeated French troops in Mexico. While it may be a cause for celebration, it is celebrated for the wrong reason. Nonetheless, it is stupid that the kids wearing the American flag were sent home while those wearing the colors of the Mexican flag were allowed to stay. I am Latino w/ Mexican and Spanish roots. I even find it disrespectful that others with the same roots can wave around the Mexican flag the way they do. I mean, I wouldn't go to another country and wave around an American flag. You come to the USA for whatever the reason and then proceed to crap on the country giving you the opportunity to be able to fly that Mexican flag. Sorry if any of this has already been stated. Just my 2 cents.

SportinOne
05-06-2010, 02:42 PM
Legal. You know, so I dont have to worry about being deported, or left in a desert to die, or having to carry drugs into the country.

:Broncos:


You watch too much tv. The real risk is being deported. So i ask you, if you had to wait 9 years and the biggest risk in leaving is that you would be sent back to where you are now, you wouldnt do it? or are you just sitting pretty at the moment and are unwilling to consider someone else's situation. i suppose not everyone has a fully developed theory of mind.

Archer81
05-06-2010, 02:43 PM
So you are saying that the US Government in fact did not have the Army kill whole tribes of Native Americans?

You also believe that if there isn't a mass grave that there is no evidence?

:thumbs:


You made the suggestion and used a specific word for it.

Genocide has a very specific meaning. It also means the government would have a vested interest in hiding evidence of any such atrocity. So...where are the mass graves of dead natives?

Was there slaughter from both sides? Yes.

Genocide? No.

Words have meaning.

:Broncos:

Rohirrim
05-06-2010, 02:43 PM
Standing up for one's country and "love it or leave it" are two completely different things. You CAN in fact have one without the other.

I remember people shouting "love it or leave it" during protests against the Vietnam War. But back then, that meant if you protest against what America is doing, you don't love your country. In reality, it's more like the opposite was true. We protested precisely because we did love our country. Now, you would like to bend this to cover a completely different scenario.

There are many in this country, like me, a grandchild of immigrants, who love immigration and believe it is a core strength of America. But that means "legal" immigration. That means immigration from all over the world. I perceive the illegal immigration coming from Mexico as more of an invasion. The numbers bears this out. Currently, it is estimated that there may be 20 million illegal immigrants in America. These numbers are hurting this country. They are hurting our working people through loss of jobs, hurting our poor by putting an unmanageble burden on our social services, hurting our hospitals through taking services without paying for them, and hurting our students and schools by overwhelming our ability to provide systems and teachers. Let's be clear: The numbers of illegal immigrants coming to America in just the last twenty years are more than the immigrants who came from Europe during the entire industrial revolution.

At the same time, many of these people who have ignored our laws to come into this country and take our jobs now demand that we accept their presence in our country and provide them with rights and benefits. They march in our streets and wave the flag of their home country. Personally, I find that insulting. Like I said in another thread, a man my wife works with who was originally from Poland, just became a citizen. It took him fourteen years. The ceremony was last week. He cried. He was that grateful.

The last time this immigration hysteria rose up, a poll was conducted among many illegals. The majority expressed that they believed they didn't have to follow our laws. They believed that the SW of the U.S. rightfully belonged to them and they could cross the border at will and pretty much do whatever they wanted. 69% said they expected a Mexican American's loyalty to remain with Mexico, not the U.S. But the clearest result of the poll was that they come to the U.S. for money. That's all. Money. They didn't really care about our ideals, our traditions, our system of government... none of that. Simply money.

Sometimes, when I see that Mexican flag waving on Cinco de Mayo, I wonder if it is not waving to expess the sentiment of "**** you, gringos" rather than "Viva la Mexico." If they want to come here and become Americans, let them go to their local American consular offices, just like people all over the world. Follow our laws. Become a citizen. Become like that Polish man who wanted to come here so that he could be an American, and be deeply grateful, not just rake in some cash and services and then go back home, treating America like some cheap whore. So yes, in that case, yes, they can love it or leave it. Different meaning.

mkporter
05-06-2010, 02:45 PM
You said genocide.

So clearly there was a concerted effort by the US government to exterminate every American Native from canada to the rio grande.

So, where are the mass graves of dead natives?

:Broncos:

Just to play devil's advocate, if you were exterminating a people, why would you bother with mass graves? They could just lay where they were killed. Mass graves take a lot more effort.

http://pistonsnationblog.com/images/devils_advocate.jpg

This wikipedia entry has a picture of a mass grave, though, so I could be wrong.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_Massacre

Archer81
05-06-2010, 02:45 PM
You watch too much tv. The real risk is being deported. So i ask you, if you had to wait 9 years and the biggest risk in leaving is that you would be sent back to where you are now, you wouldnt do it? or are you just sitting pretty at the moment and are unwilling to consider someone else's situation. i suppose not everyone has a fully developed theory of mind.


If waiting the 9 years meant a secure future for my family, I would wait the 9 years and jump through every hoop imaginable to make that happen. I would not risk my family or their security for a temporary situation.


:Broncos:

SportinOne
05-06-2010, 02:45 PM
No, I dont have an objection to it not being the official language. I think as you mentioned earlier, its understood that english is the primary language of the country.

If at any time US states begin to operate exclusively in a language that is not english, making english the official language will have to be considered if the country values national unity.

:Broncos:

primary is much different than official. primary is a more of a result while official is a forced idea. you could also say, primarily the country drive cars for transportation. but it's not the official mode of transportation.

Durango
05-06-2010, 02:49 PM
The body count in Mexico stood at 5,400 slayings in 2008, more than double the 2,477 reported in 2007, officials said, with over 1400 in Ciudad Juárez alone. The population of Ciudad Juárez had to change their daily routine and many try to stay home in the evening hours. Public life is almost paralyzed out of fear of being kidnapped or hit by a stray bullet. On 20 February 2009, the U.S. State Department announced in an updated travel alert that "Mexican authorities report that more than 1,800 people have been killed in the city since January 2008." On 12 March 2009, police found "at least seven" partially buried bodies in the outskirts of the city, close to the US-Mexican border. Five severed heads were discovered in ice boxes, along with notes to rivals in the drug-wars. Beheadings, attacks on the police and shootings are common in some regions.In September 2009, 18 patients at a drug rehabilitation clinic called El Aliviane were massacred in a turf battle. Patients were lined up in the corridor and gunned down in the early evening. On September 3, 2009 the Associated Press reported that the day before gunmen broke down the door of the El Aliviane drug rehabilitation center and lined their victims up to a wall shooting 17 dead. The authorities had no immediate suspects or information on the victims. Plagued by corruption and the assassination of many of its officers, the government is struggling to maintain Ciudad Juárez's police force. Other police have quit the force out of fear of being targeted. In late 2008 one murder victim was found near a school hanging from a fence with a pig's mask on his face and another one was found beheaded hanging from a bridge in one of the busier streets of the city.

You could make the same case for East St. Louis, south side Chicago or South Central LA. many of the illegal immigrants end up in those places and they're at least as dangerous as the circumstances you describe..and they have no rights at all here. You could argue that America in the thirties was in such chaos that Americans, by all rights, should have been be fleeing THIS country in droves. You stay put, you make it better. You work hard for your country.

Mexico is a fairly large country. There are millions of Americans that do business in Mexico without too much trouble. I'm one of them. You make it sound like the entire country is in chaos. It isn't. These folks are violating our borders because they can and they want to, and it needs to be stopped by whatever means are necessary.

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 02:49 PM
You made the suggestion and used a specific word for it.

Genocide has a very specific meaning. It also means the government would have a vested interest in hiding evidence of any such atrocity. So...where are the mass graves of dead natives?

Was there slaughter from both sides? Yes.

Genocide? No.

Words have meaning.

:Broncos:

I realize that words have meanings.

gen·o·cide Show Spelled[jen-uh-sahyd] Show IPA
–noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

Nothing about mass graves.

Archer81
05-06-2010, 02:49 PM
primary is much different than official. primary is a more of a result while official is a forced idea. you could also say, primarily the country drive cars for transportation. but it's not the official mode of transportation.


I am not sure the car analogy applies. You can still get around without the usage of the primary mode of transportation.

If entire segments of the country begin to engage in a use of language that is not english, making english official would need to happen. When nations begin to use multiple languages, they cease to be a single political entity.


:Broncos:

cutthemdown
05-06-2010, 02:53 PM
+5

The parallels of Greece and California are amazing.

Top it of with a major earthquake and California's destruction is imminent........

Maybe China will bail them out?

http://orangejuiceblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/California-government-sucks-300x212.jpg

If California goes the whole USA goes. We are about 1/4 of the economy.

Rohirrim
05-06-2010, 02:54 PM
So you are saying that the US Government in fact did not have the Army kill whole tribes of Native Americans?

You also believe that if there isn't a mass grave that there is no evidence?

:thumbs:

Talk about deflecting a thread.

Archer81
05-06-2010, 02:55 PM
I realize that words have meanings.

gen·o·cide Show Spelled[jen-uh-sahyd] Show IPA
–noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

Nothing about mass graves.



A mass grave is an example of a systematic approach to the extermination of a race.

The Holocaust, Rwanda and Cambodia, Katyn massacre are all examples of mass murder and then burying the evidence.

So if the US engaged in genocide, and applied a systematic effort to exterminate the entire Native population they would bury them in mass graves.

So where are the mass graves?

:Broncos:

mkporter
05-06-2010, 02:56 PM
I am not sure the car analogy applies. You can still get around without the usage of the primary mode of transportation.

If entire segments of the country begin to engage in a use of language that is not english, making english official would need to happen. When nations begin to use multiple languages, they cease to be a single political entity.


:Broncos:

Really? Like Canada? And China? And India? And Israel? And Belgium? And Finland? And Switzerland?

cutthemdown
05-06-2010, 02:58 PM
Immigrants used to make America strong. That is no longer the case. Things change and now immigrants make us divided and weak. They no longer come here to be Americans. They come here to be Mexicans working in America.

It's time to stem the flow, cut them off, and start demanding immigrants follow the law, learn english, get a job, don't commit crimes, and buy into the American way of life.

If you don't want to be American, then don't come to America. If you are illegally here you get put in jail, do 6 months of labor, then get deported.

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 02:58 PM
You could make the same case for East St. Louis, south side Chicago or South Central LA. many of the illegal immigrants end up in those places and they're at least as dangerous as the circumstances you describe..and they have no rights at all here. You could argue that America in the thirties was in such chaos that Americans, by all rights, should have been be fleeing THIS country in droves. You stay put, you make it better. You work hard for your country.

Mexico is a fairly large country. There are millions of Americans that do business in Mexico without too much trouble. I'm one of them. You make it sound like the entire country is in chaos. It isn't. These folks are violating our borders because they can and they want to, and it needs to be stopped by whatever means are necessary.

Juarez and one side of an american city are not even close to the same.

epicSocialism4tw
05-06-2010, 02:59 PM
I remember people shouting "love it or leave it" during protests against the Vietnam War. But back then, that meant if you protest against what America is doing, you don't love your country. In reality, it's more like the opposite was true. We protested precisely because we did love our country. Now, you would like to bend this to cover a completely different scenario.

There are many in this country, like me, a grandchild of immigrants, who love immigration and believe it is a core strength of America. But that means "legal" immigration. That means immigration from all over the world. I perceive the illegal immigration coming from Mexico as more of an invasion. The numbers bears this out. Currently, it is estimated that there may be 20 million illegal immigrants in America. These numbers are hurting this country. They are hurting our working people through loss of jobs, hurting our poor by putting an unmanageble burden on our social services, hurting our hospitals through taking services without paying for them, and hurting our students and chools by overwhelming our ability to provide systems and teachers. Let's be clear: The numbers of illegal immigrants coming to America in just the last twenty years are more than the immigrants who came from Europe during the entire industrial revolution.

At the same time, many of these people who have ignored our laws to come into this country and take our jobs now demand that we accept their presence in our country and provide them with rights and benefits. They march in our streets and wave the flag of their home country. Personally, I find that insulting. Like I said in another thread, a man my wife works with who was orinally from Poland, just became a citizen. It took him fourteen years. The ceremony was last week. He cried. He was that grateful.

The last time this immigration hysteria rose up, a poll was conducted among many illegals. The majority expressed that they believed they didn't have to follow our laws. They believed that the SW of the U.S. rightfully belonged to them and they could cross the border at will and pretty much do whatever they wanted. 69% said they expected a Mexican American's loyalty to remain with Mexico, not the U.S. But the clearest result of the poll was that they come to the U.S. for money. That's all. Money. They didn't really care about our ideals, our traditions, our system of government... none of that. Simply money.

Sometimes, when I see that Mexican flag waving on Cinco de Mayo, I wonder if it is not waving to expess the sentiment of "**** you, gringos" rather than "Viva la Mexico." If they want to come here and become Americans, let them go to their local American consular offices, just like people all over the world. Follow our laws. Become a citizen. Become like that Polish man who wanted to come here so that he could be an American, and be deeply grateful, not just rake in some cash and services and then go back home, treating America like some cheap whore. So yes, in that case, yes, they can love it or leave it. Different meaning.

You nailed it.

There is an intrinsic racism in the Illegal immigrant population. These folks come from rural areas where there is very little cultural diversity and alot of xenophobia.

The communities that I work in are made up of 68% illegal immigrants. I have learned to speak Spanish to better serve them. You would not believe some of the offensive hate speech that comes from the mouths of these undecuated people. There is intrinsic hatred for blacks, for gringos (white people), for non-Mexican latinos, etc. I have heard some pretty awful things spoken to gringos in the presence of influential children. I have had numerous accounts of illegal immigrants insulting one of my doctors in spanish because they are black.

Here's how racially backward they are. In Mexico, one of the most popular soccer teams is Chivas of Guadalajara. They have a national following because they only accept Mexican players on the team. They will not bring in other players from other countries as a statement of racial pride. There is an American soccer player who plays on a good team down there...Jose Francisco Torres. He is publicly known as "gringo" Torres because he is light skinned and from America. They see white and America as the same thing.

The Mexican national soccer team has only just started allowing naturalized players on the roster...players that immigrated to Mexico. They started allowing this to happen because they were getting beat all the time by the US team and had to start trying to find better players.

Mexico is extremely racist.

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 03:03 PM
A mass grave is an example of a systematic approach to the extermination of a race.

The Holocaust, Rwanda and Cambodia, Katyn massacre are all examples of mass murder and then burying the evidence.

So if the US engaged in genocide, and applied a systematic effort to exterminate the entire Native population they would bury them in mass graves.

So where are the mass graves?

:Broncos:

Are you serious?

So mass graves = genocide?

Authors such as the Holocaust expert David Cesarani have argued that the government and policies of the United States of America against certain indigenous peoples constituted genocide. Cesarani states that "in terms of the sheer numbers killed, the Native American Genocide exceeds that of the Holocaust".[24] He quotes David E. Stannard, author of American Holocaust,[25] who speaks of the "genocidal and racist horrors against the indigenous peoples that have been and are being perpetrated by many nations in the Western Hemisphere, including the United States ..."[26] Michno estimates 21,586 dead, wounded, and captured civilians and soldiers for the period of 1850–1890 alone.[27]

In God, Greed, and Genocide: The Holocaust Through the Centuries, Grenke quotes Chalk and Jonassohn with regards to the Cherokee Trail of Tears that "an act like the Cherokee deportation would almost certainly be considered an act of genocide today".[28] The Indian Removal Act of 1830 led to the Trail of Tears. About 17,000 Cherokees — along with approximately 2,000 black slaves owned by Cherokees — were removed from their homes.[29] The number of people who died as a result of the Trail of Tears has been variously estimated. American doctor and missionary Elizur Butler, who made the journey with one party, estimated 4,000 deaths.[30]

cutthemdown
05-06-2010, 03:04 PM
Really? Like Canada? And China? And India? And Israel? And Belgium? And Finland? And Switzerland?

Actually in Canada some provinces are officially English, the others French.

Most countries have an official language, that doesn't mean others can't be spoken.

America one of the few that doesn't designate an official language. That should change IMO.

Obviously China has a ton of them, India as well, and Israel has the split of Hebrew and Arabic. That all makes sense as those languages part of the countries people.

Obviously people will always be able to speak Spanish or any language in America. Saying something is official just means that English should be taught to new kids.

It doesn't mean that you can't live here if you don't speak it well. It's more symbolic then anything really and a non issue.

The issue is that people are here illegally, not that they speak poor English. The fact these new immigrants don't care about English, like to really just stay Mexicans, is more a symptom of them not wanting to be Americans. They just want money and services.

ColoradoDarin
05-06-2010, 03:05 PM
Really? Like Canada? And China? And India? And Israel? And Belgium? And Finland? And Switzerland?

Canada? Really, you went with Canada? The nation that almost split 15 years ago??

Archer81
05-06-2010, 03:08 PM
Really? Like Canada? And China? And India? And Israel? And Belgium? And Finland? And Switzerland?


Quebec has had several referendums on independence, with it being rejected narrowly every time.

China speaks dialects of the same language, with most of the country speaking Cantonese.

India uses English for matters of government and business.

Israel speaks hebrew. Israeli arabs speak hebrew.

Belgium has the same issue as Quebec. Dutch speaking north and french speaking south. The two areas are nearly autonomous from one another.

Finland speaks Finnish or Swedish...and considering its all scandinavian.

3/4 of Switzerland speaks german...

:Broncos:

no-pseudo-fan
05-06-2010, 03:13 PM
I am finished with this thread. I leave you with this:

What would Tim Tebow do?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-06-2010, 03:14 PM
By the way, nothing pisses me off more than Mexican flags on Fourth of July. This just seems VERY similar to me.

/shrug

Archer81
05-06-2010, 03:14 PM
Are you serious?

So mass graves = genocide?

Authors such as the Holocaust expert David Cesarani have argued that the government and policies of the United States of America against certain indigenous peoples constituted genocide. Cesarani states that "in terms of the sheer numbers killed, the Native American Genocide exceeds that of the Holocaust".[24] He quotes David E. Stannard, author of American Holocaust,[25] who speaks of the "genocidal and racist horrors against the indigenous peoples that have been and are being perpetrated by many nations in the Western Hemisphere, including the United States ..."[26] Michno estimates 21,586 dead, wounded, and captured civilians and soldiers for the period of 1850–1890 alone.[27]

In God, Greed, and Genocide: The Holocaust Through the Centuries, Grenke quotes Chalk and Jonassohn with regards to the Cherokee Trail of Tears that "an act like the Cherokee deportation would almost certainly be considered an act of genocide today".[28] The Indian Removal Act of 1830 led to the Trail of Tears. About 17,000 Cherokees — along with approximately 2,000 black slaves owned by Cherokees — were removed from their homes.[29] The number of people who died as a result of the Trail of Tears has been variously estimated. American doctor and missionary Elizur Butler, who made the journey with one party, estimated 4,000 deaths.[30]


You would think if it were American policy to exterminate natives, evidence would exist somewhere beyond heresay.

To exceed the Holocaust, nearly 15 million natives would have been murdered. There is no evidence anywhere that suggests this many natives were alive at any given time during the 19th century.

Evidence of a murder spree on that scale would have been found. You would think if american soliders were engaged in mass extermination there would be a photo, a letter, a ****ing note scribbled on a postcard describing where and when.

:Broncos:

epicSocialism4tw
05-06-2010, 03:15 PM
I am finished with this thread. I leave you with this:

What would Tim Tebow do?

I know exactly what they would do because they are missionaries. They would encourage the immigrants to go about it in the right way while providing them assistance.

DO THE RIGHT THING.

Durango
05-06-2010, 03:17 PM
Juarez and one side of an american city are not even close to the same.


You are wrong, of course. The circumstances are very similar because it's not just one city, it's many across the United States including areas of Denver, and here you are, without rights, without legal status and you don't even speak the language.

No, illegals are here because they want to be here regardless of American law. Desperation would be a legal basis to immigrate. They don't take this path because they can't make a legitimate claim. Even if they migrated illegally, they could turn themselves in, make a legitimate legal claim and be granted resident status. That's not done either.

I say again. These folks want what they want because it looks a little better than what they currently have. Not desperation. Not crime or even fear, although I'm sure there is some of that.

cutthemdown
05-06-2010, 03:22 PM
By the way, nothing pisses me off more than Mexican flags on Fourth of July. This just seems VERY similar to me.

/shrug

Except you would have to wear the American flag in Mexico on there independence day. Actually it's unthinkable you could display a flag of any country but not the American one.

That is just wrong and totally stupid.

Fire the principal and apologize to the kids.

cutthemdown
05-06-2010, 03:24 PM
Durango the reason they come is the Mexican Govt has a policy to encourage them to go to the USA, make money, send it back to Mexico. It's basically a major part of there economic plan. This is not by accident. This is a planned migration funded and organized by the Mexican govt.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-06-2010, 03:25 PM
Except you would have to wear the American flag in Mexico on there independence day. Actually it's unthinkable you could display a flag of any country but not the American one.

That is just wrong and totally stupid.

Fire the principal and apologize to the kids.

Part true, part not. These kids were making a stand of some sort and trying to get a rise out of people. It was kids being kids (and sorta assholes). I just don't see it as the huge issue that some of the righties want to make it out to be.

Durango
05-06-2010, 03:34 PM
Durango the reason they come is the Mexican Govt has a policy to encourage them to go to the USA, make money, send it back to Mexico. It's basically a major part of there economic plan. This is not by accident. This is a planned migration funded and organized by the Mexican govt.

Oh, I have no doubt there is some of that, but I have a hard time imagining the Mexican government covertly suggesting 15 million people breach the American borders so they can prop up their economy. Word might get out.

Nah, they want access to American education and social services. I seriously doubt someone would uproot their family of ten generations so they can clean toilets in Ogden Utah if there wasn't the promise of better things.

mkporter
05-06-2010, 03:46 PM
I was replying to sirhcyennek81's assertion that a country ceases to become a political entity when more than one language is used. There are many examples of this not really being the case, even several countries with multiple official languages.

Actually in Canada some provinces are officially English, the others French.

Actually, Canada is officially Bilingual:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_Languages_Act_of_Canada


Obviously China has a ton of them, India as well, and Israel has the split of Hebrew and Arabic. That all makes sense as those languages part of the countries people.


India has 23 official languages. Hebrew and Arabic are both official languages of Israel. Like it or not, immigrants (legal ones) of Spanish speaking descent are a relatively large percentage of our population now, and have to be considered as part of our country's "people." If our Government can better provide services to those with poor english by employing multi-lingual employees, than that is okay by me. If local businesses want to advertise in Spanish, that is fine with me. I live in San Diego, it isn't that big of a deal. That said, it is in the best interest of anyone living here to be fluent in english. They will be far better off for it.


Obviously people will always be able to speak Spanish or any language in America. Saying something is official just means that English should be taught to new kids.


English is already taught to every kid in the public school system.



The issue is that people are here illegally, not that they speak poor English. The fact these new immigrants don't care about English, like to really just stay Mexicans, is more a symptom of them not wanting to be Americans. They just want money and services.

Pretty much every other immigrant population in our history clung to their roots. This is true of Italians, Germans, Poles, and all our our Anglo ancestors. And they were discriminated against just the same. Assimilation into a culture takes time, and I personally believe we are a better country for it, because our culture becomes richer.

Archer81
05-06-2010, 04:05 PM
I was replying to sirhcyennek81's assertion that a country ceases to become a political entity when more than one language is used. There are many examples of this not really being the case, even several countries with multiple official languages.


Actually, Canada is officially Bilingual:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_Languages_Act_of_Canada



India has 23 official languages. Hebrew and Arabic are both official languages of Israel. Like it or not, immigrants (legal ones) of Spanish speaking descent are a relatively large percentage of our population now, and have to be considered as part of our country's "people." If our Government can better provide services to those with poor english by employing multi-lingual employees, than that is okay by me. If local businesses want to advertise in Spanish, that is fine with me. I live in San Diego, it isn't that big of a deal. That said, it is in the best interest of anyone living here to be fluent in english. They will be far better off for it.



English is already taught to every kid in the public school system.




Pretty much every other immigrant population in our history clung to their roots. This is true of Italians, Germans, Poles, and all our our Anglo ancestors. And they were discriminated against just the same. Assimilation into a culture takes time, and I personally believe we are a better country for it, because our culture becomes richer.


Usually a first generation immigrant speaks heavily accented english, if at all. Their children are bilingual. They speak their parent's language at home but english everywhere else. The grandchildren of the first generation immigrant speaks primarily english. Normally thats how it has worked in the past.

I do not believe a multicultural society is a healthy one. What I mean by multicultural is the continued use of the "old country's" way of life continued here past the first generation immigrants lifetime. At some point it needs to cease being the old country and begin to become American. Hyphenating everything forstalls this, IMO. I am not Italian-American, Irish-American, German-American or Scot-American. I am simply American. Clearly my ancestors wanted to leave europe and come here. Why would I engage in cultural norms from Europe if they wanted to come to America? I am not saying we should avoid adding aspects of foriegn cultures to our own, if we did that stiffles American culture and hurts the entire society. But we should not be so transitory that we are willing to drop traditionally American things for fear of offending incoming immigrants.

These countries that are officially bilingual have unity issues. The Quebecois do not consider themselves Canadian, just like the Waloons in Belgium do not consider themselves Belgian or the Basques in Spain consider themselves Spanish.

:Broncos:

Rohirrim
05-06-2010, 04:10 PM
Part true, part not. These kids were making a stand of some sort and trying to get a rise out of people. It was kids being kids (and sorta a-holes). I just don't see it as the huge issue that some of the righties want to make it out to be.

So, you are willing to assume the kids with the American flag have an ulterior motive, but the kids waving the Mexican flags do not? Interesting.

mkporter
05-06-2010, 04:13 PM
Quebec has had several referendums on independence, with it being rejected narrowly every time.

China speaks dialects of the same language, with most of the country speaking Cantonese.

India uses English for matters of government and business.

Israel speaks hebrew. Israeli arabs speak hebrew.

Belgium has the same issue as Quebec. Dutch speaking north and french speaking south. The two areas are nearly autonomous from one another.

Finland speaks Finnish or Swedish...and considering its all scandinavian.

3/4 of Switzerland speaks german...

:Broncos:

I guess I don't really see how our country's use of Spanish threatens us as a political entity. There are countries all over the world that have varying degrees of multilingualism, and they seem to get by just fine. I mean India has 23 official languages. We primarily use English, and we write our laws in English, and that is great. If it suits some segments of our country to use Spanish or other languages, what is the big deal? Sure, it can get stupid on occasion, but in a lot of cases it makes things work better. It doesn't change the fact that the only way to really succeed in this country is to learn English, and speak it well.

Swedish Extrovert
05-06-2010, 04:16 PM
I guess I don't really see how our country's use of Spanish threatens us as a political entity. There are countries all over the world that have varying degrees of multilingualism, and they seem to get by just fine. I mean India has 23 official languages. We primarily use English, and we write our laws in English, and that is great. If it suits some segments of our country to use Spanish or other languages, what is the big deal? Sure, it can get stupid on occasion, but in a lot of cases it makes things work better. It doesn't change the fact that the only way to really succeed in this country is to learn English, and speak it well.

I agree. I think we should just make English the official language with Spanish as a recognized language required to be taught in schools.

Also, while what the Cali school did was a little intense, it was a douche move to wear that stuff specifically on Cince de Mayo.

Swedish Extrovert
05-06-2010, 04:18 PM
Quebec has had several referendums on independence, with it being rejected narrowly every time.

China speaks dialects of the same language, with most of the country speaking Cantonese.

India uses English for matters of government and business.

Israel speaks hebrew. Israeli arabs speak hebrew.

Belgium has the same issue as Quebec. Dutch speaking north and french speaking south. The two areas are nearly autonomous from one another.

Finland speaks Finnish or Swedish...and considering its all scandinavian.

3/4 of Switzerland speaks german...

:Broncos:

I dated a Belgian girl. The primary language there is Flemmish, which is kind of a combo of French and Dutch - and most speak either French or Dutch (along with English), too.

I have family from Scandinavia. Finland is almost all Finnish with a very small Swedish minority. The languages are nothing alike, but most Swedes/Finns speak English.

Archer81
05-06-2010, 04:20 PM
I guess I don't really see how our country's use of Spanish threatens us as a political entity. There are countries all over the world that have varying degrees of multilingualism, and they seem to get by just fine. I mean India has 23 official languages. We primarily use English, and we write our laws in English, and that is great. If it suits some segments of our country to use Spanish or other languages, what is the big deal? Sure, it can get stupid on occasion, but in a lot of cases it makes things work better. It doesn't change the fact that the only way to really succeed in this country is to learn English, and speak it well.


I agree. But language differences eventually lead to a seperation of people. Using Belgium as an example, anyone living to the south in belgium will be speaking French. To the north, dutch. They have little to do with one another even if they are in the same country. It creates a seperation. Why even allow that scenario to happen here? I dont see it as a big deal to make English the official language of the united states when it already is unofficially.

:Broncos:

Archer81
05-06-2010, 04:21 PM
I dated a Belgian girl. The primary language there is Flemmish, which is kind of a combo of French and Dutch - and most speak either French or Dutch (along with English), too.

I have family from Scandinavia. Finland is almost all Finnish with a very small Swedish minority. The languages are nothing alike, but most Swedes/Finns speak English.


Damn you wikipedia...damn you...


:Broncos:

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-06-2010, 04:27 PM
So, you are willing to assume the kids with the American flag have an ulterior motive, but the kids waving the Mexican flags do not? Interesting.

I would like you to point out where I said ANYTHING even remotely near what you just posted. Good luck.

mkporter
05-06-2010, 04:30 PM
Usually a first generation immigrant speaks heavily accented english, if at all. Their children are bilingual. They speak their parent's language at home but english everywhere else. The grandchildren of the first generation immigrant speaks primarily english. Normally thats how it has worked in the past.

I do not believe a multicultural society is a healthy one. What I mean by multicultural is the continued use of the "old country's" way of life continued here past the first generation immigrants lifetime. At some point it needs to cease being the old country and begin to become American. Hyphenating everything forstalls this, IMO. I am not Italian-American, Irish-American, German-American or Scot-American. I am simply American. Clearly my ancestors wanted to leave europe and come here. Why would I engage in cultural norms from Europe if they wanted to come to America? I am not saying we should avoid adding aspects of foriegn cultures to our own, if we did that stiffles American culture and hurts the entire society. But we should not be so transitory that we are willing to drop traditionally American things for fear of offending incoming immigrants.

These countries that are officially bilingual have unity issues. The Quebecois do not consider themselves Canadian, just like the Waloons in Belgium do not consider themselves Belgian or the Basques in Spain consider themselves Spanish.

:Broncos:

I think I agree with you for the most part, and that was a good description of how assimilation occurs. It my feeling that maybe we can do better than the years of discrimination and hatred that follows large immigrant groups. We shouldn't have to drop the traditionally American things, but I don't think is does us a service to rub their noses in it either. We are Americans, and in my opinion we have the greatest country in the world. We should be secure in that knowledge, and not feel a compulsion to go around and beat our chests about it. We certainly have the right to do so, but having the right to do something is different from doing the right thing. And yes, the principal was wrong. He should have found a better way to maintain the peace.

mkporter
05-06-2010, 04:41 PM
I agree. But language differences eventually lead to a seperation of people. Using Belgium as an example, anyone living to the south in belgium will be speaking French. To the north, dutch. They have little to do with one another even if they are in the same country. It creates a seperation. Why even allow that scenario to happen here? I dont see it as a big deal to make English the official language of the united states when it already is unofficially.

:Broncos:

Again, I agree mostly. I guess I feel that formalizing on a standard is more likely to create isolation and resentment. There are plenty of very strong economic and social benefits to speaking English, and making a law about it provides little benefit with larger risks. America has a pretty good record, overall, of merging cultures. Even after 9/11, you are better off being a Muslim here than in France, where they are fiercely nationalistic and protective of their language.

Rohirrim
05-06-2010, 04:42 PM
I would like you to point out where I said ANYTHING even remotely near what you just posted. Good luck.

Part true, part not. These kids were making a stand of some sort and trying to get a rise out of people. It was kids being kids (and sorta a-holes). I just don't see it as the huge issue that some of the righties want to make it out to be.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-06-2010, 04:46 PM
Part true, part not. These kids were making a stand of some sort and trying to get a rise out of people. It was kids being kids (and sorta a-holes). I just don't see it as the huge issue that some of the righties want to make it out to be.

Where did I say the kids with the Mexican flags didn't have ulterior motives?

Oh right. I didn't. Nice detective work. Now you can go find Carmen Sandiego.

Swedish Extrovert
05-06-2010, 04:51 PM
Part true, part not. These kids were making a stand of some sort and trying to get a rise out of people. It was kids being kids (and sorta a-holes). I just don't see it as the huge issue that some of the righties want to make it out to be.

Rep. It would be quite different if some Mexican immigrants (legal or not) wore a Mexican flag on July 4th to school. If there was school on July 4th.

Archer81
05-06-2010, 04:53 PM
Again, I agree mostly. I guess I feel that formalizing on a standard is more likely to create isolation and resentment. There are plenty of very strong economic and social benefits to speaking English, and making a law about it provides little benefit with larger risks. America has a pretty good record, overall, of merging cultures. Even after 9/11, you are better off being a Muslim here than in France, where they are fiercely nationalistic and protective of their language.


In France the muslims have more or less insulated themselves from the larger culture. They do not speak French or engage in French society. A little give by both sides there would have probably prevented those riots in paris.


:Broncos:

mkporter
05-06-2010, 05:01 PM
In France the muslims have more or less insulated themselves from the larger culture. They do not speak French or engage in French society. A little give by both sides there would have probably prevented those riots in paris.


:Broncos:

QFT. The immigration issue absolutely goes both ways.

Swedish Extrovert
05-06-2010, 05:16 PM
QFT. The immigration issue absolutely goes both ways.

From my class in European politics with research from DU/CU-Boulder Professor Lapo Salucci (http://polsci.colorado.edu/component/option,com_qcontacts/catid,13/id,87/view,contact/)[/URL]

Look at pages 17 and 25

Edit - I had to segment them and lower the quality to fit the mane's size restrictions

Edit2 - Dammit, wont work as either a pdf or ppt... try jpg

Edit3 -
17:
Is immigration more of a problem or an opportunity?
Light blue: problem / Dark blue: opportiunity
Left-to-right: France, Netherelands, Poland, EU average, Italy Germany, US, UK

25:
View of Muslim's way of life
Light blue: Muslim immigration has a lot to offer / Dark: Western/Muslim values can be reconciled (the hight both bars, the more accepting the society is to Muslims)
Left to right: Italy, Poland, Netherlands, Germany, European Average, UK, US

mkporter
05-06-2010, 05:32 PM
From my class in European politics with research from DU/CU-Boulder Professor Lapo Salucci (http://polsci.colorado.edu/component/option,com_qcontacts/catid,13/id,87/view,contact/)[/URL]

Look at pages 17 and 25

Edit - I had to segment them and lower the quality to fit the mane's size restrictions

Edit2 - Dammit, wont work as either a pdf or ppt... try jpg

I can't make it out. Can you give the cliff notes version?

Dedhed
05-06-2010, 05:38 PM
Sorry if this sounds ignorant in advance.

Why is it that if Mexicans are so proud of their heritage and feel the need to wave around the flag of mexico, are they in the United States?

Yeah, I've never seen a car with an Irish flag hanging from the mirror, or an Italian flag on a porch, or a Greek flag in a window, or a Brazilian flag bumper sticker.

Swedish Extrovert
05-06-2010, 05:41 PM
I can't make it out. Can you give the cliff notes version?

It was the results of a study done by one of my Professors at DU who served as a policy analyst for the European Union.

17:
Is immigration more of a problem or an opportunity?
Light blue: problem / Dark blue: opportiunity
Left-to-right: France, Netherelands, Poland, EU average, Italy Germany, US, UK

25:
View of Muslim's way of life
Light blue: Muslim immigration has a lot to offer / Dark: Western/Muslim values can be reconciled (the hight both bars, the more accepting the society is to Muslims)
Left to right: Italy, Poland, Netherlands, Germany, European Average, UK, US

26:
Findings in the research -
- Immigration is generally more of a problem than an opportunity (economically)
- Split data on whether immigration increases crime (inconclusive)
- In Europe, Britts and Poles are the most weary of immigrants, Dutch least weary
- Immigration is best handled at a Federal (not state) level, in this case being the EU rather than Britain or France
- Mixed views about Muslim integration. Generally more positive than negative.
A little surprising to see the Americans are on average more accepting of Muslims in society than Europeans.

Swedish Extrovert
05-06-2010, 05:42 PM
Yeah, I've never seen a car with an Irish flag hanging from the mirror, or an Italian flag on a porch, or a Greek flag in a window, or a Brazilian flag bumper sticker.

Rep.

I've got a American, Israeli and Swedish flag hanging up in my room

Dedhed
05-06-2010, 05:44 PM
Part true, part not. These kids were making a stand of some sort and trying to get a rise out of people. It was kids being kids (and sorta a-holes). I just don't see it as the huge issue that some of the righties want to make it out to be.

I don't see it either. I would imagine the principal is in a better position to know whether the actions of his students are in good spirit, or if they're intended to spark something.

Say he does nothing, and it turns into another school massacre, then what?

cutthemdown
05-06-2010, 06:19 PM
Rep. It would be quite different if some Mexican immigrants (legal or not) wore a Mexican flag on July 4th to school. If there was school on July 4th.

We don't have school that day becauseit's an american holiday. We don't give special consideration to holidays from other countries.

It was wrong to send these kids home for this. No reason anyone should be upset over an American flag being displayed in America.

It's ludicrous to think a school would have to send someone home because he has on a flag of the country.

If the kids were making a statement I agree with it. No mexcian flags in American schools. Besides to disrespect Mexican independence you would have to wear a French Flag.

cutthemdown
05-06-2010, 06:21 PM
I don't see it either. I would imagine the principal is in a better position to know whether the actions of his students are in good spirit, or if they're intended to spark something.

Say he does nothing, and it turns into another school massacre, then what?

Where any other students displaying mexican flags? I read story but didn't catch that part? Or did he make them remove those as well.

If anything the flag of any other country is what causes problems.

Swedish Extrovert
05-06-2010, 06:21 PM
We don't have school that day becauseit's an american holiday. We don't give special consideration to holidays from other countries.

It was wrong to send these kids home for this. No reason anyone should be upset over an American flag being displayed in America.

It's ludicrous to think a school would have to send someone home because he has on a flag of the country.

If the kids were making a statement I agree with it. No mexcian flags in American schools. Besides to disrespect Mexican independence you would have to wear a French Flag.

Missed my point entirely.

We don't have school on July 4th because it's during summer break. We get it off, as we should.

I don't see Cinco de Mayo being a national holiday any more than Swedish or Iraqi independence day being a national holiday.

The school might have overreacted. But if the kids were being contentious, maybe not.

The kids did an a-hole thing. Honestly, if we did have school on July 4, how would you feel if some Mexican kids walked in on our Independence Day with giant sombreros and ponchos with the Mexican flag?

cutthemdown
05-06-2010, 06:23 PM
There is nothing wrong with the flag any other country, as long as no one puts that above, or in front of the American flag. I could care less if some Italian would like to display his flag. Just make sure you don't put it higher or in front of, or say anything or do anything to our flag.

cutthemdown
05-06-2010, 06:24 PM
We don't have school on July 4th because it's during summer break. We get it off, as we should.

I don't see Cinco de Mayo being a national holiday any more than Swedish or Iraqi independence day being a national holiday.

Well some schools year round now so the summer not all vacation.

There is no reason for any school to even care about Cinco de Mayo. If they yearn for the motherland go the **** home.

Swedish Extrovert
05-06-2010, 06:25 PM
There is nothing wrong with the flag any other country, as long as no one puts that above, or in front of the American flag. I could care less if some Italian would like to display his flag. Just make sure you don't put it higher or in front of, or say anything or do anything to our flag.

What if you're an American living in Mexico? Is it okay to put the Mexican flag on top then?

Seems like a double standard.

Dedhed
05-06-2010, 06:34 PM
We don't have school that day becauseit's an american holiday. We don't give special consideration to holidays from other countries.

It was wrong to send these kids home for this. No reason anyone should be upset over an American flag being displayed in America.

It's ludicrous to think a school would have to send someone home because he has on a flag of the country.

If the kids were making a statement I agree with it. No mexcian flags in American schools. Besides to disrespect Mexican independence you would have to wear a French Flag.

Missed the point entirely. This is nothing more than a principal making the welfare of his students the top priority.

epicSocialism4tw
05-06-2010, 06:40 PM
What if you're an American living in Mexico? Is it okay to put the Mexican flag on top then?

Seems like a double standard.

Seriously?

An American in Mexico obviously should respect his local community. It behooves both he and the community for him to assimilate as much as possible.

It seems that respect is going the way of the dinosaur. Everyone now feels entitled to respect, but its really something that you have to earn. Its the same when you integrate with new people in any setting. People are generally more than willing to honor a person who shows respect.

epicSocialism4tw
05-06-2010, 06:41 PM
Video: http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local-beat/Students-Wearing-American-Flag-Shirts-Sent-Home-92945969.html

worm
05-06-2010, 06:49 PM
If they yearn for the motherland go the **** home.

Should we sign you up to pick all the fruit?

Or would you prefer they were required to hum America the Beautiful while putting the strawberries in your flat?

Swedish Extrovert
05-06-2010, 06:54 PM
Seriously?

An American in Mexico obviously should respect his local community. It behooves both he and the community for him to assimilate as much as possible.

It seems that respect is going the way of the dinosaur. Everyone now feels entitled to respect, but its really something that you have to earn. Its the same when you integrate with new people in any setting. People are generally more than willing to honor a person who shows respect.

I actually agree with this 100%. You're kinda making my point for me.

cutthemdown
05-06-2010, 06:55 PM
What if you're an American living in Mexico? Is it okay to put the Mexican flag on top then?

Seems like a double standard.

If you are in Mexico then by all means the Mexican flag should always be displayed highest and get the same respect I expect for our flag in America.

I support that for every county. IMO going to another country, pissing on there flag, waving yours around while you sap there services and commit crimes is fighting words. If I did that in any country I would expect poor treatment.

I dare any group of Americans, to go to a city in Mexico, go to a soccer field, set it up for softball, put up the american flag on a pole 15 feet high, blast American music, drink beer and expect it to go well. That's what they do in the parks by my house and I admit it I get stoked up with Nationalism and get pissed off.

Take down the flag or put American higher, turn down the music, don't drink the beer in park, make kids use restroom, pick up trash, have a green card or be legal, and I don't have a problem.

Otherwise go the frack home. The fact it's even an issue is lunacy to me. Don't people care about rules and law anymore? I mean I know we break a lot of them we consider no big deal, but it's getting out of control.

Dedhed
05-06-2010, 06:57 PM
Video: http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local-beat/Students-Wearing-American-Flag-Shirts-Sent-Home-92945969.html

Total douche move.

epicSocialism4tw
05-06-2010, 07:03 PM
I actually agree with this 100%. You're kinda making my point for me.

You responded to another guys post as if Americans had a double standard for the way that they treat legal immigrants, which is false. If I was wrong, I apologize, but if I read you right, I stand by what I said.

Illegal immigrants have not respected our laws, our people, or our sovereign land. They deserve no respect in those regards in return.

epicSocialism4tw
05-06-2010, 07:04 PM
Total douche move.

What is a total douche move?

Swedish Extrovert
05-06-2010, 07:05 PM
Total douche move.

It was just contentious on the kids part... someone earlier said it was just kids being a-holes. Send them home? Not for specifically wearing the clothes... but yeah, you don't walk into a synagogue on passover wearing a giant cross.

epicSocialism4tw
05-06-2010, 07:10 PM
It was just contentious on the kids part... someone earlier said it was just kids being a-holes. Send them home? Not for specifically wearing the clothes... but yeah, you don't walk into a synagogue on passover wearing a giant cross.

On the contrary, I think that the kids are patriotic. They are examples. They are in a fight for their country right now and they stood up for what they believe. They feel the oppression forced on them by the whordes of illegals that storm into their community and drop the quality of life across the board. They stood up. Thank goodness.

Too many people around here want to shut people up like people are in Europe.

Dedhed
05-06-2010, 07:15 PM
What is a total douche move?

Disrespecting the heritage of US citizens.

epicSocialism4tw
05-06-2010, 07:16 PM
Disrespecting the heritage of US citizens.

You mean illegal immigrants, right? Because the kids who wore American flag shirts were latino.

Ouch...there goes your point.

Play2win
05-06-2010, 07:22 PM
Learn the English Language and deal with Americans wearing the Red, White and Blue. That, or find some other f**ing country to live in.

Dedhed
05-06-2010, 07:27 PM
You mean illegal immigrants, right? Because the kids who wore American flag shirts were latino.

Ouch...there goes your point.
Um, no. I'm talking about the Mexican-American students at that school, who are US citizens.

Ouch, there goes your point.