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robbieopperude
05-03-2010, 11:06 PM
Support your reason.

Quoydogs
05-03-2010, 11:09 PM
Support your reason.

With all the different galaxies out there I think there has to be some other kind of life. I think you would have to be pretty closed minded to think we are the only ones.

baja
05-03-2010, 11:11 PM
I saw what could only be a ship two different times.

Once in a village in Mexico and another driving in the desert from Tucson to San Diego.

Killericon
05-03-2010, 11:18 PM
Support your reason.

Law of large numbers. Also, we've found some evidence of microbacterial life within our own Solar System, never mind any of the other infinite galaxies out there.

UberBroncoMan
05-03-2010, 11:19 PM
With all the different galaxies out there I think there has to be some other kind of life. I think you would have to be pretty closed minded to think we are the only ones.

This.

I believe somewhere else, there is intelligent life in the universe... and it's not like just one other species too. Given the amount of galaxies, stars, solar systems... I think there are quite a few anomalies (like Earth) out there.

I do however don't believe we've been visited by any aliens.

I wish Mars had an atmosphere and large quantities water btw. Imagine humanity having the ability to inhabit two worlds. Would save our species from a world killer too.

baja
05-03-2010, 11:21 PM
The reason they don't contact us is because they have seen reruns of "Friends".

atomicbloke
05-03-2010, 11:23 PM
Life = yes.

Intelligent life = Can't answer. We do not have a "universal" mathematical definition for "intelligence" yet.

Killericon
05-03-2010, 11:27 PM
Life = yes.

Intelligent life = Can't answer. We do not have a "universal" mathematical definition for "intelligence" yet.

We actually don't even have a definition of "intelligence" yet, at least in the sense of "intelligent life".

Baba Booey
05-03-2010, 11:31 PM
Like everyone's said, it's a numbers game. There are billions of stars in our galaxy and billions upon billions of galaxies in the known universe.

broncocalijohn
05-03-2010, 11:36 PM
Didnt you guys watch History Channel program? All the ancient cultures had aliens visit them. Best part was some guy named George with some funky ass hair.

Kid A
05-03-2010, 11:38 PM
The numbers say it's likely. But, the numbers also say it's just short of impossible they could have visited Earth given the distances between galaxies.

That's what always blows my mind I guess; there very likely are other advanced civilizations out there, but the odds of us ever connecting are around nil. Here's guessing they're just as prone to killing one another/****ing things up as we are.

baja
05-03-2010, 11:41 PM
http://www.ufobc.ca/yukon/n-canol-abd/images/fig09-aliens-crop.jpg

maher_tyler
05-03-2010, 11:44 PM
I saw what could only be a ship two different times.

Once in a village in Mexico and another driving in the desert from Tucson to San Diego.

Details! I've lived in Tucson since November and haven't seen ****!! I've never seen a UFO!!

UberBroncoMan
05-03-2010, 11:44 PM
I really wish this poll was public... that way we know who the retard is, if anyone is thick headed enough to think we're not alone in the universe.

maher_tyler
05-03-2010, 11:44 PM
http://www.ufobc.ca/yukon/n-canol-abd/images/fig09-aliens-crop.jpg

Hilarious!

randomtask
05-03-2010, 11:45 PM
Here's a fairly interesting website discussing discovering planets capable of supporting life similar to that on Earth.

http://www.astro.rug.nl/~onderwys/sterIIproject97/kleefman/index.html

baja
05-03-2010, 11:47 PM
Details! I've lived in Tucson since November and haven't seen ****!! I've never seen a UFO!!

There was a bright light low on the horizon that followed us for several minutes then just zipped away at an unworldly speed. We were somewhere outside of Quartizite AZ.

robbieopperude
05-03-2010, 11:48 PM
Wow,
I expected alot more No's at this point. I also would say that Aliens exist and I have been debating with my wife about this. Her belief in religion tends to make her a non believer in aliens. I however believe that we are visited frequently by various species. The part that is hard to argue is the great distances they would have to travel at super speeds to get here.

I think it is tough to argue with all the "sightings" that happen around the world each year. I think there is to many respectable people that claim to have saw ships to ignore. Nasa Astronauts, Air Force Pilots, etc... who risk credibility within the govt.

UberBroncoMan
05-03-2010, 11:49 PM
Here's a fairly interesting website discussing discovering planets capable of supporting life similar to that on Earth.

http://www.astro.rug.nl/~onderwys/sterIIproject97/kleefman/index.html

The problem is getting to there.

Light speed or some sort of super speed travel isn't possible for humans due to radioactive nanoparticles which are incapable of being blocked. When going at high speeds in space the body would be plummeted with high volumes of it and you'd die.

maher_tyler
05-03-2010, 11:50 PM
There was a bright light low on the horizon that followed us for several minutes then just zipped away at an unworldly speed. We were somewhere outside of Quartizite AZ.

That's crazy dude..i've never encountered anything crazy like that. Does anyone know if they canceled the UFO Hunters series on the History Channel??

robbieopperude
05-03-2010, 11:54 PM
That's crazy dude..i've never encountered anything crazy like that. Does anyone know if they canceled the UFO Hunters series on the History Channel??

Some of the UFO stuff on the history channel is pretty interesting. The Ancient stuff they are doing now is pretty cool to see. It makes you think differently about the pyramids, stonehenge, and alot of other crazy stuff we have on this earth that doesn't appear to be man made.

Taco John
05-04-2010, 12:00 AM
I've heard three UFO stories from three different friends (none of them know eachother) that have been told to me with such force and conviction of belief - and consistency, that I can't help but wonder. I've never seen anything of the sort. But each time I ask any of these three different guys to tell their story, I get the same consistent story without any change to the details, and them telling it as though they're reliving the event from their memories.

Broncosfreak_56
05-04-2010, 12:02 AM
No doubt there are aliens. There is even a possibility that we are descendants of aliens(watch ancient aliens on the history channel, very cool series) even though I do not think it is true.

However, I do not think humans will ever encounter other intelligent life anytime soon, just because of how long it takes to travel between, star systems, galaxies etc.

SnowGoose77
05-04-2010, 12:03 AM
That's crazy dude..i've never encountered anything crazy like that. Does anyone know if they canceled the UFO Hunters series on the History Channel??

I've had 2 separate occasions where I have seen a bright light in the sky that seemed to be following me while driving at night in the mountains. They appeared to be the size of a large bright star but much closer then took off in an instant like Baja mentioned. Made the hair on the back of your neck stand up. Not necessarily ready to say they were UFO's but creeped me out both times.

Los Broncos
05-04-2010, 12:04 AM
Out of all the sightings and reports not everyone can be lying.

baja
05-04-2010, 12:06 AM
I've heard three UFO stories from three different friends (none of them know eachother) that have been told to me with such force and conviction of belief - and consistency, that I can't help but wonder. I've never seen anything of the sort. But each time I ask any of these three different guys to tell their story, I get the same consistent story without any change to the details, and them telling it as though they're reliving the event from their memories.

I'm not supposed to say anything but I am actually an alien.

UberBroncoMan
05-04-2010, 12:08 AM
Some of the UFO stuff on the history channel is pretty interesting. The Ancient stuff they are doing now is pretty cool to see. It makes you think differently about the pyramids, stonehenge, and alot of other crazy stuff we have on this earth that doesn't appear to be man made.

Not sure how much you yourself believe in "alien help," but I'd like to stomp a few things.

Pyramids are possible when you have a **** ton of slaves. People just think of the Egyptians and Giza in relation to them too. The Nubians to the south had their own pyramids, etc. The Chinese did too except they were upside-down and underground.

In an age with slavery, a lot was possible when it came to constructing amazing things. Aliens didn't make the Great Wall to protect the Chinese from Mongolians did they?

Stonehenge is explainable. Saw a video a few years back where some dudes made their own without ANY modern tools whatsoever.

The stars were a huge part of ancient life too so it makes sense that so many things are associated with the sky... the Sun especially.

Hearkening on what others have said, I too have known someone to believe they saw a UFO. Don't believe it though. Just not feasible. It's nothing more than people seeing something and convincing themselves of an irrationality. Angles, light reflection, etc. No different to me than all the people who claim to have seen the a ghost, etc.

UberBroncoMan
05-04-2010, 12:10 AM
Ok, must know who the 1 loon is that voted no... damn you OP for not making this public, damn you!

robbieopperude
05-04-2010, 12:14 AM
I wanted to protect people on this one. Seriously I expected far more No's then Yes's.

robbieopperude
05-04-2010, 12:14 AM
What about this one ?
http://paranormaldailynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/nazca_spider_geoglyph.gif

baja
05-04-2010, 12:15 AM
I've had 2 separate occasions where I have seen a bright light in the sky that seemed to be following me while driving at night in the mountains. They appeared to be the size of a large bright star but much closer then took off in an instant like Baja mentioned. Made the hair on the back of your neck stand up. Not necessarily ready to say they were UFO's but creeped me out both times.

My second (well actually the first) experience was in Yallapa Mexico (near Puerto Vallarta). This time the lights ( two, one green and the other blue) were stationary for several minutes then suddenly they moved a great distance out over the Sea of Cortez stopped for an instant then blinked away. Both times I was with my ex wife and we both knew what we had witnessed was not within wordily experience we were familiar with. We were left with a feeling we had seen something not from this world but not fearful to the degree you might think. Unsettled I would say.

robbieopperude
05-04-2010, 12:22 AM
http://www.crystalinks.com/nazca.html

robbieopperude
05-04-2010, 12:24 AM
My second (well actually the first) experience was in Yallapa Mexico (near Puerto Vallarta). This time the lights ( two, one green and the other blue) were stationary for several minutes then suddenly they moved a great distance out over the Sea of Cortez stopped for an instant then blinked away. Both times I was with my ex wife and we both knew what we had witnessed was not within wordily experience we were familiar with. We were left with a feeling we had seen something not from this world but not fearful to the degree you might think. Unsettled I would say.

To me there are way to many stories like this to be ignored. Even if 90 percent of them are made up or figments of imagination each year that leaves 10 percent that are actual sightings.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-04-2010, 12:28 AM
With all the different galaxies out there I think there has to be some other kind of life. I think you would have to be pretty closed minded to think we are the only ones.

This.

(Beat me to it.)

HAT
05-04-2010, 12:33 AM
Here's guessing they're just as prone to killing one another/****ing things up as we are.

"You see, young marklar. Those marklars don't care about marklar marklar. They just want to take your marklar and marklar their own marklar. The only marklar for this is to marklar."

-Marklar

Borks147
05-04-2010, 12:33 AM
Did you guys see Stephen Hawking's quote 2 weeks ago basically saying "To all those people trying to contact extra-terrestrials: are you ****ing nuts?! are you trying to get us all killed?! If any of these species are smart enough to travel the stars, they'll look at us like some backwater ripe for the picking - it will turn out like when Columbus discovered the new world, not so well for the natives!"

....to paraphrase

Broncosfreak_56
05-04-2010, 12:34 AM
"You see, young marklar. Those marklars don't care about marklar marklar. They just want to take your marklar and marklar their own marklar. The only marklar for this is to marklar."

-Marklar

Truer marklars were never marklared.

baja
05-04-2010, 12:37 AM
Did you guys see Stephen Hawking's quote 2 weeks ago basically saying "To all those people trying to contact extra-terrestrials: are you ****ing nuts?! are you trying to get us all killed?! If any of these species are smart enough to travel the stars, they'll look at us like some backwater ripe for the picking - it will turn out like when Columbus discovered the new world, not so well for the natives!"

....to paraphrase

If they can transcend time (necessary to be here) they will be beyond the need to take.

atomicbloke
05-04-2010, 12:37 AM
There was a bright light low on the horizon that followed us for several minutes then just zipped away at an unworldly speed. We were somewhere outside of Quartizite AZ.

Dude, are you serious?

Cuz something similar happened to me while driving from Albuquerque to Jemez on US 550 West on a summer morning at 3:30 am. Except it was a stack of 3 flashing blue lights to my left beyond the highway. It almost seemed to be stalking me. If I was driving at 70 and suddenly braked, then it actually accelerated ahead and then had a delayed braking to slow down align with me again. Then I tried driving at 40, and suddenly floored the gas, then it was left behind for a few seconds but accelerated to catch up with me. I pulled over and got out of my car, crossed to road to examine. It was also stopped. But it was too far beyond the highway to make out what it exactly was. It disappeared after about 20 minutes.

HAT
05-04-2010, 12:38 AM
Mock=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_bG8hBUWsKlI/SsXk86Yo3zI/AAAAAAAAApk/mouA2sl858c/s320/edgar-bug_0001.jpg

True story...

baja
05-04-2010, 12:39 AM
Dude, are you serious?

Cuz something similar happened to me while driving from Albuquerque to Jemez on US 550 West on a summer morning at 3:30 am. Except it was a stack of 3 flashing blue lights to my left beyond the highway. It almost seemed to be stalking me. If I was driving at 70 and suddenly braked, then it actually accelerated ahead and then had a delayed braking to slow down align with me again. Then I tried driving at 40, and suddenly floored the gas, then it was left behind for a few seconds but accelerated to catch up with me. I pulled over and got out of my car, crossed to road to examine. It was also stopped. But it was too far beyond the highway to make out what it exactly was. It disappeared after about 20 minutes.

Yep dead serious.

How did it leave you feeling?

atomicbloke
05-04-2010, 12:41 AM
Yep dead serious.

How did it leave you feeling?

It was weird and unexplainable.

I actually rubbed my eyes to make sure I was not hallucinating. I specifically remember doing this very consciously. It was 3:30 am after all.

Too bad I was alone. Wish I had more witnesses. Cuz when I tell my buddies they think I am crazy or was imagining things.

Happened around July 2003

broncosteven
05-04-2010, 12:51 AM
I don't believe in the typical definition of the word Alien but I think that there is intelligent life out in the universe after seeing the Hubble deep field image.

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/upload/2009/05/HubbleDeepFieldL.jpg

They pointed Hubble to one of the darkest spots they could find in the sky and collected light for something like 10 days. Never moving the TS because it is in space. It came back with all these galaxy's from some 7 Billion years ago if I remember right. They think the age of the universe is 14 Billion years old.

There has to have been many systems that housed life much like ours who have died out already, are like us in the middle of our life expectancy (or near end) or are yet to be born.

That said the crew of Apollo 11 said they saw something following them during the translunar coast which was too far away to be the spent S-IV booster. The didn't report it later in the mission and only mentioned it in Debrief.

I am going to try to understand and read up on the parallel Universe theories, they go back to the 60's with Hugh Everetts (his son is in the band EELS) Many Worlds theory and Hawkings Bubble/membrane theories.

M-theory and bubble theory are interesting because they can set off new big bangs on membranes or bubbles should one contact another.

String theory eludes me at present but with the Cern collider up and running now in France we should get some more info on what happens to particles being expoded at those speeds. If the higgs Boson exists a lot of the above theories will be given creedence and maybe 20-40 years from now we will be thinking about our universe as stacks of paper rather than round sphere exploding outward into nothingness.

They need to find out what dark energy and dark matter are also. They would be even more important if there are no alternate universes.

baja
05-04-2010, 12:54 AM
It was weird and unexplainable.

I actually rubbed my eyes to make sure I was not hallucinating. I specifically remember doing this very consciously. It was 3:30 am after all.

Too bad I was alone. Wish I had more witnesses. Cuz when I tell my buddies they think I am crazy or was imagining things.

Happened around July 2003

For me there is really no way to adequately convey the experience. I somehow "knew" this was a visitation. It was unnerving but at the same time it felt like this was an old reoccurring experience that lived just outside of conscious memory almost like a cellular memory. Hard to explain.

robbieopperude
05-04-2010, 01:01 AM
Did you guys see Stephen Hawking's quote 2 weeks ago basically saying "To all those people trying to contact extra-terrestrials: are you ****ing nuts?! are you trying to get us all killed?! If any of these species are smart enough to travel the stars, they'll look at us like some backwater ripe for the picking - it will turn out like when Columbus discovered the new world, not so well for the natives!"

....to paraphrase

I read about this. He also said that people with above average intelligence were more likely to believe in the existence of Aliens. So congrats to the O.Mane and are vast number of above average intellectuals.

Archer81
05-04-2010, 01:05 AM
I believe aliens exist.

I doubt they have been to earth. That would mean the milky way is fixed, it does not move and would keep distance between galaxies always the same. If aliens have been to earth, they would have to be in the same galaxy. At least logically you would have to assume that.

Unless its like stargate and they built a series of gateways to create wormholes between worlds.

:Broncos:

cutthemdown
05-04-2010, 01:14 AM
I voted yes because alien can mean anything considered life not on Earth. The universe too big for that not to happen IMO.

Intelligent life like we know it? I give that a good possibility as well. The numbers say probably so. Also people way smarter then i will ever hope to be seem to also think it's probable.

I'm not surprised though Baja has seen a UFO.

OBF1
05-04-2010, 01:19 AM
Yes.... I have seen them while in mexico one time.

atomicbloke
05-04-2010, 01:20 AM
Dude, are you serious?

Cuz something similar happened to me while driving from Albuquerque to Jemez on US 550 West on a summer morning at 3:30 am. Except it was a stack of 3 flashing blue lights to my left beyond the highway. It almost seemed to be stalking me. If I was driving at 70 and suddenly braked, then it actually accelerated ahead and then had a delayed braking to slow down align with me again. Then I tried driving at 40, and suddenly floored the gas, then it was left behind for a few seconds but accelerated to catch up with me. I pulled over and got out of my car, crossed to road to examine. It was also stopped. But it was too far beyond the highway to make out what it exactly was. It disappeared after about 20 minutes.

To put it in a nut shell, these blue flashing lights seemed to be driving "formation" with me.

Can't call them UFO's since they certainly weren't flying. They were at my eye level.

broncosteven
05-04-2010, 01:34 AM
My second (well actually the first) experience was in Yallapa Mexico (near Puerto Vallarta). This time the lights ( two, one green and the other blue) were stationary for several minutes then suddenly they moved a great distance out over the Sea of Cortez stopped for an instant then blinked away. Both times I was with my ex wife and we both knew what we had witnessed was not within wordily experience we were familiar with. We were left with a feeling we had seen something not from this world but not fearful to the degree you might think. Unsettled I would say.

About 12-14 years ago there were those lights that hung over some city in the south west maybe in AZ?

Never heard a real answer I think alot of the sightings in the Southwest are attributed to experimental aircrafts. I really hope we have a ship better than the SR-71 in action or at least testing which would eclipse what the SR-71 did but I am not sure. It is strange that all our supersonic craft (Mach 3 or better) seem to be grounded for one reason or other.

Military is looking at launching an X37 shuttle replacement which is unmanned to launch satellites into orbit. This is the way they should have gone from the Dyna soar days. Use a mix of X-15 on top of an Atlas for manned space flight needs and let unmanned reusable craft handle the covert military missions.

I would also like to see small x-20 or HL-10 type craft launched on the top of Atlas rockets used for our manned trips to the Internation Space Station and or beyond.

Launch them with or without men onbored, park them in orbit or dock to Space Station then when needed they could land like the shuttle bringing down the recovery costs tremendously. One could even add a small jet engine to the lifting body class for powered landings if needed.

A lot of what people see in the south west are test runs of new gear.

Baba Booey
05-04-2010, 01:37 AM
If Aliens have visited us, it was probably by means that we can't comprehend yet. They're probably so advanced that trying to understand their technology would be like trying to teach advanced physics to a dog.

That said, who the hell knows? Maybe saucer sitings are for real.

baja
05-04-2010, 01:46 AM
I believe aliens exist.

I doubt they have been to earth. That would mean the milky way is fixed, it does not move and would keep distance between galaxies always the same. If aliens have been to earth, they would have to be in the same galaxy. At least logically you would have to assume that.

Unless its like stargate and they built a series of gateways to create wormholes between worlds.

:Broncos:

You really think you can logically deduce the ability for space travelers to be here. Isn't that incredibility presumptuous. Do you think we are at a place in our evolution where you can decide with any confidence on the feasibility of a visitation based on your current understanding of the way things work?

Archer81
05-04-2010, 01:50 AM
You really think you can logically deduce the ability for space travelers to be here. Isn't that incredibility presumptuous. Do you think we are at a place in our evolution where you can decide with any confidence on the feasibility of a visitation based on your current understanding of the way things work?

Yes.

:Broncos:

Lomax
05-04-2010, 01:53 AM
If they can transcend time (necessary to be here) they will be beyond the need to take.

That's a pretty big assumption. It stands to reason that if planets capable of sustaining life (or at least our version of it) are as rare as they appear to be, they would be very valuable to a civilization with similar biologies capable of traveling long distances.

The universe is so old, if long distance travel is possible, I imagine that it wouldn't be entirely unlikely that life was placed here on purpose by a much, much older species, perhaps for observational purposes.

Taking that a step further, it could even explain large world-altering events like the extinction of the dinosaurs.

watermock
05-04-2010, 02:00 AM
The fact that energy DID travel faster than light after the big bang.

Besides, black holes could just be doorways to other bubbles.

And if nothing is faster than light, how come black holes swallow it?

And then you have effects of sincronicity over distance.

Baba Booey
05-04-2010, 02:01 AM
That's a pretty big assumption. It stands to reason that if planets capable of sustaining life (or at least our version of it) are as rare as they appear to be, they would be very valuable to a civilization with similar biologies capable of traveling long distances.

The universe is so old, if long distance travel is possible, I imagine that it wouldn't be entirely unlikely that life was placed here on purpose by a much, much older species, perhaps for observational purposes.

Taking that a step further, it could even explain large world-altering events like the extinction of the dinosaurs.

That kinda **** just boggles my mind, but you can't rule any of it out. Good stuff.

watermock
05-04-2010, 02:16 AM
Watched the shows on last night.

Thank God Hawkings didn't narrate it all.

Show gave an excellent overview of current models and didn't totally ignore dark energy, altho affirming it's real.

robbieopperude
05-04-2010, 02:17 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wow!_signal
The Wow! signal was a strong narrowband (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrowband) radio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_frequency) signal detected by Dr. Jerry R. Ehman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_R._Ehman) on August 15, 1977, while working on a SETI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SETI) project at The Big Ear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Ear) radio telescope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_telescope) of Ohio State University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_State_University). The signal bore expected hallmarks of potential non-terrestrial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth) and non-solar system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_system) origin. It lasted for a total of 72 seconds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second), the full duration Big Ear observed it, but has not been detected again. Much attention has been focused on it in the media when talking about SETI results.
Amazed at how closely the signal matched the expected signature of an interstellar signal in the antenna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antenna_%28radio%29) used, Ehman circled the signal on the computer printout and wrote the comment "Wow!" on its side. This comment became the name of the signal.

baja
05-04-2010, 02:34 AM
Yes.

:Broncos:

Ha!


So said the flat earthers with much the same conviction as you do tonight when they were presented with a round earth idea.

baja
05-04-2010, 02:39 AM
Watched the shows on last night.

<b>Thank God Hawkings didn't narrate it all.</b>

Show gave an excellent overview of current models and didn't totally ignore dark energy, altho affirming it's real.

You mean you don't even have compassion for someone that you share an affliction with?

watermock
05-04-2010, 02:53 AM
I think splitting the atom in '45 was about like a monkey learning to use a rock to break a coconut.

It's been 65 years since and it still seems we are more adept at destuction than ever, i.e., when you unleash powers on a scale like fusion or deep water abiotic origin of oil.

Abiogenic petroleum origin
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Abiogenic petroleum origin is an alternative hypothesis to the prevailing theory of biological petroleum origin. Most popular in the Soviet Union between the 1950s and 1980s, the abiogenic hypothesis has little support among contemporary petroleum geologists, who argue that abiogenic petroleum does not exist in significant amounts and that there is no indication that an application of the hypothesis is or has ever been of commercial value.[1]

The abiogenic hypothesis argues that petroleum was formed from deep carbon deposits, perhaps dating to the formation of the Earth. The presence of methane on Saturn's moon Titan is cited as evidence supporting the formation of hydrocarbons without biology. Supporters of the abiogenic hypothesis suggest that a great deal more petroleum exists on Earth than commonly thought, and that petroleum may originate from carbon-bearing fluids that migrate upward from the mantle.

Although the abiogenic hypothesis was accepted by some geologists in the former Soviet Union, most geologists now consider the biogenic formation of petroleum scientifically supported.[1] Although evidence exists for abiogenic formation of methane and hydrocarbon gases within the Earth,[2][3] studies indicate they are not produced in commercially significant quantities (i.e. a median abiogenic hydrocarbon content in extracted hydrocarbon gases of 0.02%).[4] The abiogenic origin of petroleum has also recently been reviewed in detail by Glasby, who raises a number of objections, including that there is no direct evidence to date of abiogenic petroleum (liquid crude oil and long-chain hydrocarbon compounds).[1]

Although the biogenic theory for petroleum was first proposed by Georg Agricola in the 16th century, various abiogenic hypotheses were proposed in the nineteenth century, most notably by Alexander von Humboldt, the Russian chemist Dmitri Mendeleev and the French chemist Marcellin Berthelot. Since that time, the abiogenic hypotheses have lost ground to the view that petroleum is a fossil fuel.

Abiogenic hypotheses were revived in the last half of the twentieth century by Russian and Ukrainian scientists, and more interest was generated in the West by the publication in 1999 of The Deep Hot Biosphere by Thomas Gold. Gold cited the discovery of thermophile bacteria in the Earth's crust as new support for the postulate that these bacteria could explain the existence of certain biomarkers in extracted petroleum.[5]

Fact may be, that our planets oil was made billions of years ago, and is more of seepage upwards.

Drilling off Brazil and the Horizon spill show there is plenty of ol, too much, I guess, since 2 blowout system failures ans a 3rd not even implemented at a cost of 500k?

baja
05-04-2010, 03:00 AM
Funny I have always thought of oil as the earths lubricant to ease the slippage between plates I always thought it was an nieve thought but could never quite discount it. Your article lends credence to my intuit.

watermock
05-04-2010, 03:01 AM
You mean you don't even have compassion for someone that you share an affliction with?

Not at all, he prefers his 70's speech, altho he could easily have better.

I watched 2 hours twice.

I'm just saying 2 hours of his 70's voice would f been annoying.

He had plenty of time to show who was in charge, altho he's frustrated about black holes and there are are other physics guys on the show.

Did you even see it?

watermock
05-04-2010, 03:06 AM
Funny I have always thought of oil as the earths lubricant to ease the slippage between plates I always thought it was an nieve thought but could never quite discount it. Your article lends credence to my intuit.

Actually thats accurate.

Ever notice oil doesn't come out where volcanos do?

baja
05-04-2010, 03:32 AM
Actually thats accurate.

Ever notice oil doesn't come out where volcanos do?

Even the rock is molten so I doubt you will spot much oil flowing around a volcano.

FireFly
05-04-2010, 03:55 AM
Law of large numbers. Also, we've found some evidence of microbacterial life within our own Solar System, never mind any of the other infinite galaxies out there.

QFT

I do not however believe that we have been visited. I don't discount the possibility, but I just think it's unlikely.

With regards to us being the only sentient life, in my mind the chances of it not being the case are infinitesimally small

watermock
05-04-2010, 04:22 AM
Even the rock is molten so I doubt you will spot much oil flowing around a volcano.

Duh.

I'm tired of explaining.

DeepWater Horizon was HUGE.

THATS WHY IT BLEW OUT.

watermock
05-04-2010, 04:27 AM
QFT

I do not however believe that we have been visited. I don't discount the possibility, but I just think it's unlikely.

With regards to us being the only sentient life, in my mind the chances of it not being the case are infinitesimally small

So it's a horse race.

1000000/1

have some balls.

That bet is allready won....

ZONA
05-04-2010, 04:33 AM
Out of all the sightings and reports not everyone can be lying.

With that logic, I guess Bigfoot must really exist........lol

:rofl:

Yes, they all could be lying very easily.

And who was it that replied that we have found microbial life somewhere else in our solar system other then Earth? Go ahead and post your link to the proof. We haven't found life at all, anywhere. There are some encouraging signs we have seen to suggest life would be possible but there is no proof yet.


I don't rule out the notion that there could be advanced life somewhere out there but even with the gazillions of stars and galaxies, there are numerous things that all have to happen just perfectly for advanced life to have a chance.

And we haven't seen anything close to us we think advanced life could exist. We all know how mind blowing the distance it would take just to fly accross our own galaxy at light speed would take (100,000 years). To fly to your neighbor galaxy probably millions of years. Ok, now think about traveling to galaxies we can see with hubble (14 billion years). That's quite a long flight.

And this one always reasures me just how hard it would be to travel at light speed. The amount of energy it would take is truly mind blowing, and that's if you could figure out how to do it and do it safely.

Special Theory of Relativity says that objects gain mass as they speed up, and that speeding up requires energy. The more mass, the more energy is required. By the time an object reached the speed of light, Einstein calculated, its mass would be infinite, and so would the amount of energy required to increase its speed. To go beyond the infinite is impossible.


Yeah, that kinda sums it up. Where is an alien going to get an infinite amount of energy?

watermock
05-04-2010, 04:35 AM
Even the rock is molten so I doubt you will spot much oil flowing around a volcano.

:spit::welcome:

watermock
05-04-2010, 04:50 AM
Special Theory of Relativity says that objects gain mass as they speed up, and that speeding up requires energy. The more mass, the more energy is required. By the time an object reached the speed of light, Einstein calculated, its mass would be infinite, and so would the amount of energy required to increase its speed. To go beyond the infinite is impossible.


WOW, He was a German who hated Gernany.

Einstien proved gravity could bend light. Newton thouught in a much different world.

robbieopperude
05-04-2010, 05:07 AM
With that logic, I guess Bigfoot must really exist........lol

:rofl:

Yes, they all could be lying very easily.

And who was it that replied that we have found microbial life somewhere else in our solar system other then Earth? Go ahead and post your link to the proof. We haven't found life at all, anywhere. There are some encouraging signs we have seen to suggest life would be possible but there is no proof yet.


I don't rule out the notion that there could be advanced life somewhere out there but even with the gazillions of stars and galaxies, there are numerous things that all have to happen just perfectly for advanced life to have a chance.

And we haven't seen anything close to us we think advanced life could exist. We all know how mind blowing the distance it would take just to fly accross our own galaxy at light speed would take (100,000 years). To fly to your neighbor galaxy probably millions of years. Ok, now think about traveling to galaxies we can see with hubble (14 billion years). That's quite a long flight.

And this one always reasures me just how hard it would be to travel at light speed. The amount of energy it would take is truly mind blowing, and that's if you could figure out how to do it and do it safely.

Special Theory of Relativity says that objects gain mass as they speed up, and that speeding up requires energy. The more mass, the more energy is required. By the time an object reached the speed of light, Einstein calculated, its mass would be infinite, and so would the amount of energy required to increase its speed. To go beyond the infinite is impossible.


Yeah, that kinda sums it up. Where is an alien going to get an infinite amount of energy?


I would imagine they use a technology that is beyond human understanding and may also possess various elements from other planets that do not exist on earth. It appears that within the last 15 years we have just discovered that gravity can be manipulated or have at least begun to think about it in that way. If a ship could manipulate gravity it sounds like it isn't held to the same standard as the speed of light. It is sort of a loophole around traveling at that speed. From what I have read it is a concept that is in debate right now.

Personally I think the speed of light and traveling at it is a novel idea that became a standard because it was a definable equation.

watermock
05-04-2010, 05:11 AM
Special Theory of Relativity says that objects gain mass as they speed up, and that speeding up requires energy. The more mass, the more energy is required. By the time an object reached the speed of light, Einstein calculated, its mass would be infinite, and so would the amount of energy required to increase its speed. To go beyond the infinite is impossible.


Objects do not increase in mass upon accelleation, they increace in force.

Actually, at the speed of light, mass would be zero.

Sorry Dude.

I mean........................

watermock
05-04-2010, 05:27 AM
What is funny is how precious the calculations, observation suiperseeds it.

It's all GOD,

or there is noone to hear the tree fall.

HILife
05-04-2010, 05:28 AM
With that logic, I guess Bigfoot must really exist........lol

:rofl:

Yes, they all could be lying very easily.

And who was it that replied that we have found microbial life somewhere else in our solar system other then Earth? Go ahead and post your link to the proof. We haven't found life at all, anywhere. There are some encouraging signs we have seen to suggest life would be possible but there is no proof yet.


I don't rule out the notion that there could be advanced life somewhere out there but even with the gazillions of stars and galaxies, there are numerous things that all have to happen just perfectly for advanced life to have a chance.

And we haven't seen anything close to us we think advanced life could exist. We all know how mind blowing the distance it would take just to fly accross our own galaxy at light speed would take (100,000 years). To fly to your neighbor galaxy probably millions of years. Ok, now think about traveling to galaxies we can see with hubble (14 billion years). That's quite a long flight.

And this one always reasures me just how hard it would be to travel at light speed. The amount of energy it would take is truly mind blowing, and that's if you could figure out how to do it and do it safely.

Special Theory of Relativity says that objects gain mass as they speed up, and that speeding up requires energy. The more mass, the more energy is required. By the time an object reached the speed of light, Einstein calculated, its mass would be infinite, and so would the amount of energy required to increase its speed. To go beyond the infinite is impossible.


Yeah, that kinda sums it up. Where is an alien going to get an infinite amount of energy?

ahh hum...

http://star-trek-ships.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/star-trek-enterprise-ncc-1701-300x240.jpg

http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/090506-tw-warp-drive.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole

watermock
05-04-2010, 05:56 AM
U No Ho U R.

I will destryoy.

Just wait you **********.


I allready know who you are.

Dedhed
05-04-2010, 06:08 AM
Law of large numbers. Also, we've found some evidence of microbacterial life within our own Solar System, never mind any of the other infinite galaxies out there.
+1

We've been able to discover some profound evidence for life on other planets within our solar system. Given how small our investigative reach is compared to all galaxies in existence, it's almost impossible to believe that there aren't other complex life forms out there.

Now, whether we've been contacted by them is another story.

watermock
05-04-2010, 06:35 AM
Paladians are from a nearby system. Andromeda.

Reptoids consider us vermin. they are below.

There ya go.

Reptoids are native.

TheReverend
05-04-2010, 06:41 AM
I think this should be fairly unanimous. In fact, I think the best poll question would be "Do you think intelligent alien life has visited Earth?"

colonelbeef
05-04-2010, 08:10 AM
Of course, it's a mathematical certainty that complex life exists elsewhere in the universe. the only question is whether or not anything has been to our planet.

Rohirrim
05-04-2010, 08:38 AM
Of course I believe in aliens. I've been to Walmart.

http://www.wildaboutmovies.com/images_7/PeopleOfWalmart_000.jpg

Ugly Duck
05-04-2010, 08:45 AM
I do however don't believe we've been visited by any aliens.

Check out where Earth is in our galaxy. We're spinning off the edge way the hell out in the boonies. It would take a very determined alien to come searching all the way out here.

mizzoutigers
05-04-2010, 08:46 AM
http://krapps.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/ObamaAlien.jpg

Rohirrim
05-04-2010, 08:47 AM
Of course I believe in aliens. I've been to Walmart.

http://www.wildaboutmovies.com/images_7/PeopleOfWalmart_000.jpg

I'd like to think that's a place where no man has gone before.

Kaylore
05-04-2010, 08:50 AM
I believe in extra terrestrial life. I don't believe in the grays, crop circles (proven a hoax), cow mutalations, obductions, or any of that crap. I think most of it is disinformation from the government and con artists.

Br0nc0Buster
05-04-2010, 08:57 AM
yes
google "Drake Equation"

the universe is too big for us to be the only source of "intelligent" life

Mr.Meanie
05-04-2010, 08:58 AM
Out of all the sightings and reports not everyone can be lying.

What about all the people who have seen "miracles" and "Jesus"? Is it true just because there are tons of stories?

Kaylore
05-04-2010, 08:58 AM
And if nothing is faster than light, how come black holes swallow it?
Because even a child knows the difference between strength and speed.

Pseudofool
05-04-2010, 09:00 AM
Sure, there's probably intelligent life out there, but unless Einstein is wrong about but the theory of relativity, we'll never come into contact with them (or only by means of generational travel).

bowtown
05-04-2010, 09:02 AM
I think this should be fairly unanimous. In fact, I think the best poll question would be "Do you think intelligent alien life has visited Earth?"

Yep. Big difference.

Kaylore
05-04-2010, 09:04 AM
What about all the people who have seen "miracles" and "Jesus"? Is it true just because there are tons of stories?

The problem with alien stories and sightings is they vary culture to culture. The alien sightings in the US look different than the ones in Africa. They don't have the grays. And African aliens don't look like south America's or Asia's.

Either some galactic council broke up Earth for exploration among cultural lines, or its all BS and local folklore dictates what they "see".

Pseudofool
05-04-2010, 09:07 AM
I think this should be fairly unanimous. In fact, I think the best poll question would be "Do you think intelligent alien life has visited Earth?"
Yeah, that's a more divisive question. I'd say no.

bowtown
05-04-2010, 09:12 AM
Of course, it's a mathematical certainty that complex life exists elsewhere in the universe. the only question is whether or not anything has been to our planet.

Well it's not exactly a certainty. That math depends on a lot of assumptions that are not proven.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-04-2010, 09:21 AM
This thread is worthless without........a soundtrack! ;D

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<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/wIGhIoHshKE&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/wIGhIoHshKE&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

TheReverend
05-04-2010, 09:29 AM
Well it's not exactly a certainty. That math depends on a lot of assumptions that are not proven.

Like a jupiter to suck massive asteroids into it and protect us from getting a high volume of evolution resetting impacts.

That being said, I love this topic. I think it's without a doubt aliens are out there. I think 90% of the sightings are from morons/attention whores, and 9% are hyper advanced technology for our military from Lockheed's skunkworks, etc. The other 1% though... that's exciting too.

TheReverend
05-04-2010, 09:30 AM
Anyone watch "The Fourth Kind"?

Trippy ****ing movie.

Rohirrim
05-04-2010, 09:35 AM
"What would you think of the idea of intelligent life visiting this planet?"

I think it would be a good idea.

(to paraphrase Gandhi) ;D

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-04-2010, 09:36 AM
Anyone watch "The Fourth Kind"?

Trippy ****ing movie.

Downloading it right now. :~ohyah!:

TheReverend
05-04-2010, 09:39 AM
Downloading it right now. :~ohyah!:

It's a fun watch. Fake, but fun.

Mogulseeker
05-04-2010, 10:04 AM
I believe in Tralfamadorians

atomicbloke
05-04-2010, 10:08 AM
Has intelligent life ever visited the Orangemane?

Mr.Meanie
05-04-2010, 10:18 AM
Has intelligent life ever visited the Orangemane?

Yes. 1,594 times.

Kaylore
05-04-2010, 10:22 AM
Has intelligent life ever visited the Orangemane?

Well....

U No Ho U R.

I will destryoy.

Just wait you **********.


I allready know who you are.

Rohirrim
05-04-2010, 10:54 AM
I believe in Tralfamadorians

Thank you, Eliot Rosewater.

Los Broncos
05-04-2010, 10:59 AM
U No Ho U R.

I will destryoy.

Just wait you **********.


I allready know who you are.

WTH? :spit:

epicSocialism4tw
05-04-2010, 11:05 AM
yes
google "Drake Equation"

the universe is too big for us to be the only source of "intelligent" life

Someone else referenced mathematical "certainty" in regards to this issue.

There is no mathematical certainty here. That's a gross overestimation of the resolution of the issue. There is mathematical probability.

As for the "Drake Equation"...its garbage.

These variables are all multiplied together

N = the number of civilizations in our galaxy with which communication might be possible;
R* = the average rate of star formation per year in our galaxy
fp = the fraction of those stars that have planets
ne = the average number of planets that can potentially support life per star that has planets
fℓ = the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop life at some point
fi = the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop intelligent life
fc = the fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space
L = the length of time such civilizations release detectable signals into space.

The boldened are impossible to know, only to predict based on sketchy information and conjecture. This isnt a reliable source of information because it factors in variables that are completely unpredictable right now.

Pseudofool
05-04-2010, 11:13 AM
Thank you, Eliot Rosewater.

As far getting stuck in zoo exhibits, poor Billy Pilgrim had it pretty good.

Hallside
05-04-2010, 11:14 AM
Super primitive life elsewhere in our solar system: Maybe

Super primitive life in other solar systems: Almost for sure

Advanced life forms (may or may not be "intelligent") in other solar systems: Probably

Advanced, intelligent life in other solar systems: Maybe

That we've been visited or "probed" by ET: No way

DivineBronco
05-04-2010, 12:23 PM
ok we are now up to 12 people that say no........please please tell us more about why you say that

TheReverend
05-04-2010, 12:34 PM
ok we are now up to 12 people that say no........please please tell us more about why you say that

This.

It's now generally accepted that all life on earth is alien and began with a comet/asteroid that contained microbacteria potentially from even as close as Mars (cross contamination)

DenverBrit
05-04-2010, 12:36 PM
The best proof that there is intelligent life out there is the fact that they never bothered to contact us.

Pseudofool
05-04-2010, 12:38 PM
It's now generally accepted that all life on earth is alien and began with a comet/asteroid that contained microbacteria potentially from even as close as Mars (cross contamination)
Accepted by whom? I seriously doubt this. Has the Miller-Urey experiment been debunked?

(And really does it matter if life is organic from Mars or Earth? In the scheme of things we're essentially the same isolated place.)

Pseudofool
05-04-2010, 12:40 PM
The best proof that there is intelligent life out there is the fact that they never bothered to contact us.Ah, the Prime Directive.

baja
05-04-2010, 12:43 PM
Maybe our Galaxy is really a genetically modified peach in some lifeform's fruit basket?

Rohirrim
05-04-2010, 12:47 PM
The best proof that there is intelligent life out there is the fact that they never bothered to contact us.

Touche. :thumbsup:

Requiem
05-04-2010, 12:49 PM
I've told my story here about my encounter with a UFO with my friends back when I was much younger, and one would have to be ignorant to doubt that other lifeforms, substantial in capacity of intellect, don't exist in our vast cosmos.

I'm guessing the people who said "no" are the Bible humping crowd.

Requiem
05-04-2010, 12:51 PM
The best proof that there is intelligent life out there is the fact that they never bothered to contact us.

They've been in contact with us for years, thousands of years, as far as I'm concerned. Still to this day.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is "alien DNA" amongst our Homo sapien sapien populace.

JMHO.

TheReverend
05-04-2010, 12:55 PM
Accepted by whom? I seriously doubt this. Has the Miller-Urey experiment been debunked?

Astrobiologists

(And really does it matter if life is organic from Mars or Earth? In the scheme of things we're essentially the same isolated place.)

If you look at it myopically. It also shows how easy it is to share building blocks of life from planet to planet. It's really cool if Mars is our origin from before it cooled off. Hell, we even grabbed a piece of a comet a few years ago and found amino acids in it.

Flex Gunmetal
05-04-2010, 01:20 PM
Jesus mock.

Mogulseeker
05-04-2010, 01:35 PM
As far getting stuck in zoo exhibits, poor Billy Pilgrim had it pretty good.

What an amazing book...

epicSocialism4tw
05-04-2010, 01:38 PM
Accepted by whom? I seriously doubt this. Has the Miller-Urey experiment been debunked?

(And really does it matter if life is organic from Mars or Earth? In the scheme of things we're essentially the same isolated place.)

Miller is good for ideas, but he's not the end-all.

We have a good idea of how life could happen given a confluence of forces (time, chemical conditions, atmospheric conditions, gravitational conditions, temperature, etc), and Miller has helped give valuable info to that cause, but Miller is not accepted wholesale by the community of biologists because there have been problems repeating his experiment in a way that works.

watermock
05-04-2010, 01:51 PM
The best proof that there is intelligent life out there is the fact that they never bothered to contact us.

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watermock
05-04-2010, 01:53 PM
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Requiem
05-04-2010, 01:54 PM
Mock is an alien.

kamakazi_kal
05-04-2010, 02:13 PM
Stay frosty Mock.

BroncoBuff
05-04-2010, 02:15 PM
Law of large numbers. Also, we've found some evidence of microbacterial life within our own Solar System, never mind any of the other infinite galaxies out there.

Yup ... sheer numbers, unfathomable chances.

The form of alien life is a better question I think ... just a week or two ago Stephen Hawking was quoted saying any alien life would be hostile toward us. Can't hardly disagree with that, we think nothing of eliminating an anthill.

Bronco Yoda
05-04-2010, 02:23 PM
Didnt you guys watch History Channel program? All the ancient cultures had aliens visit them. Best part was some guy named George with some funky ass hair.


Every episode his hair get's BIGGER as if he keeps putting it in a light socket. Ha!

That mana machine was pretty interesting. How about that theory of the pyramids being power stations.

Bronco Yoda
05-04-2010, 02:47 PM
Dude, are you serious?

Cuz something similar happened to me while driving from Albuquerque to Jemez on US 550 West on a summer morning at 3:30 am. Except it was a stack of 3 flashing blue lights to my left beyond the highway. It almost seemed to be stalking me. If I was driving at 70 and suddenly braked, then it actually accelerated ahead and then had a delayed braking to slow down align with me again. Then I tried driving at 40, and suddenly floored the gas, then it was left behind for a few seconds but accelerated to catch up with me. I pulled over and got out of my car, crossed to road to examine. It was also stopped. But it was too far beyond the highway to make out what it exactly was. It disappeared after about 20 minutes.


Three years ago we were in Rio Rancho (near you) renovating a house for the inlaws they bought to retire in. It's on the edge of town. I'm in the garage talking on the phone when I hear the roof of the house vibrating. I get a ladder and go up into the crawl space. Dust is getting kicked up everywhere in attick and a strange noise is pulsating. If you didn't know better you'd think the house was about to get hit by a tornado. I go back inside the house to find the wife standing looking outside the back porch...white as a ghost. She was shook up. She say's that there was a strange green light that hovered over the house then moved on. It glowed in a way that she'd never seen before. It hovered for a time then moved on. The next day reports were on the local news of many sightings across New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, Texas and so on. She is totally convinced that she saw a UFO. I can't believe I missed it. Then again my dumb ass would have ran outside to check it out and gotten the fire in the sky treatment.

Archer81
05-04-2010, 02:50 PM
I once saw a light in the sky...it was otherworldly, brilliant and hovered like a protective butterfly...it spoke to me, told me that humanity had a grander purpose, that our species was special, selected among the pantheon of galactic species to lead us all into a brilliant future...

Then the shrooms wore off and I realized I was staring at the moon.

Crazy.

:Broncos:

epicSocialism4tw
05-04-2010, 02:52 PM
Yup ... sheer numbers, unfathomable chances.

The form of alien life is a better question I think ... just a week or two ago Stephen Hawking was quoted saying any alien life would be hostile toward us. Can't hardly disagree with that, we think nothing of eliminating an anthill.

Evolution favors traits that encourage survival. There is entirely the possibility that symbiosis encourages a communal, inclusive predisposition in intelligent populations given that it has a factor in whether or not those species survive to reproductive maturity based on the fact that this comunal relationship ensures survival.

Of course, we as American humans are so self-loathing that we imagine that another race of living intelligent things must have been able to handle their ethical responsibilities with more vigor and success, and would come to us as benevolent mommies who would show us the way. We see the better side of us in them.

But who's to say that an alien race wouldnt be vicious in a way that made them successful as a species like the snakehead, who have become a dominant and intrusive fish species because of their tendancy to kill and eat indiscriminately anything that they can get in their throat?

DenverBrit
05-04-2010, 02:55 PM
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Ok, they contacted you and Gaffney.

Which indicates a sense of humor, not intelligence. ;D

epicSocialism4tw
05-04-2010, 03:03 PM
String theory eludes me at present but with the Cern collider up and running now in France we should get some more info on what happens to particles being expoded at those speeds. If the higgs Boson exists a lot of the above theories will be given creedence and maybe 20-40 years from now we will be thinking about our universe as stacks of paper rather than round sphere exploding outward into nothingness.

The irony in this is pretty funny.

We feel rather proud of ourselves that we can look back with disdain at other generations of humans that believed that they lived in a layered world with a flat surface...with layers extending deep and high.

If we proved that the universe is flat instead of round, I would have to laugh.

NYBronco
05-04-2010, 03:06 PM
Yes aliens exist!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-04-2010, 03:08 PM
Support your reason.

Too big a galaxy out there for us to be alone.

TheReverend
05-04-2010, 03:08 PM
Evolution favors traits that encourage survival. There is entirely the possibility that symbiosis encourages a communal, inclusive predisposition in intelligent populations given that it has a factor in whether or not those species survive to reproductive maturity based on the fact that this comunal relationship ensures survival.

Of course, we as American humans are so self-loathing that we imagine that another race of living intelligent things must have been able to handle their ethical responsibilities with more vigor and success, and would come to us as benevolent mommies who would show us the way. We see the better side of us in them.

But who's to say that an alien race wouldnt be vicious in a way that made them successful as a species like the snakehead, who have become a dominant and intrusive fish species because of their tendancy to kill and eat indiscriminately anything that they can get in their throat?

Because we have an ever evolving sense of compassion that helps perpetuate the species so it's more than possible that other advanced life would share it.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
05-04-2010, 03:09 PM
Evolution favors traits that encourage survival. There is entirely the possibility that symbiosis encourages a communal, inclusive predisposition in intelligent populations given that it has a factor in whether or not those species survive to reproductive maturity based on the fact that this comunal relationship ensures survival.

Of course, we as American humans are so self-loathing that we imagine that another race of living intelligent things must have been able to handle their ethical responsibilities with more vigor and success, and would come to us as benevolent mommies who would show us the way. We see the better side of us in them.

But who's to say that an alien race wouldnt be vicious in a way that made them successful as a species like the snakehead, who have become a dominant and intrusive fish species because of their tendancy to kill and eat indiscriminately anything that they can get in their throat?

WHAT are you talking about? Good god, man. Put the pipe down.

epicSocialism4tw
05-04-2010, 03:17 PM
Because we have an ever evolving sense of compassion that helps perpetuate the species so it's more than possible that other advanced life would share it.

Compassion is something that leads to diminishing fitness. For survival, you generally need fit discrete individuals over communities of individuals with fewer resources.

Archer81
05-04-2010, 03:23 PM
Compassion is something that leads to diminishing fitness. For survival, you generally need fit discrete individuals over communities of individuals with fewer resources.


It would depend on the species.

Man is a social animal. We do better in groups. Because we do better in groups, we do things that other species are not capable of, like caring for our wounded, disabled or sick.

Is it possible some alien species have evolved along similar lines? Probably. But on the flip side of that, alien species of a more predatory nature than humans have more than likely evolved too.

:Broncos:

atomicbloke
05-04-2010, 03:28 PM
Three years ago we were in Rio Rancho (near you) renovating a house for the inlaws they bought to retire in. It's on the edge of town. I'm in the garage talking on the phone when I hear the roof of the house vibrating. I get a ladder and go up into the crawl space. Dust is getting kicked up everywhere in attick and a strange noise is pulsating. If you didn't know better you'd think the house was about to get hit by a tornado. I go back inside the house to find the wife standing looking outside the back porch...white as a ghost. She was shook up. She say's that there was a strange green light that hovered over the house then moved on. It glowed in a way that she'd never seen before. It hovered for a time then moved on. The next day reports were on the local news of many sightings across New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, Texas and so on. She is totally convinced that she saw a UFO. I can't believe I missed it. Then again my dumb ass would have ran outside to check it out and gotten the fire in the sky treatment.

How long ago was this? Like which year?

epicSocialism4tw
05-04-2010, 03:29 PM
It would depend on the species.

Man is a social animal. We do better in groups. Because we do better in groups, we do things that other species are not capable of, like caring for our wounded, disabled or sick.

Is it possible some alien species have evolved along similar lines? Probably. But on the flip side of that, alien species of a more predatory nature than humans have more than likely evolved too.


There is truth to this, but to expect another intelligent species to have such traits is highly speculative.

Our increase in intelligence has correlated with the increased ability to process thoughts through language centers in the brain...the temporal lobe. So our intelligence is directly tied to our interaction with other humans. Another species on another planet may have developed differently.

We assume that they have organs and organ systems similar to our own, which is possible but highly unlikely.

Archer81
05-04-2010, 03:43 PM
There is truth to this, but to expect another intelligent species to have such traits is highly speculative.

Our increase in intelligence has correlated with the increased ability to process thoughts through language centers in the brain...the temporal lobe. So our intelligence is directly tied to our interaction with other humans. Another species on another planet may have developed differently.

We assume that they have organs and organ systems similar to our own, which is possible but highly unlikely.


Human beings are biologically the way they are today because of environmental factors from the past. We stand up and walk on two legs because our ancestral species spent more time on open savanahs and had to be able to see predators. We developed a larger brain as our species began to develop complex socialization. We began to eat meat to fuel a brain that required more calories than fruits and leaves could offer...which only pushed for larger brain development as we began to coordinate hunts and form larger groups...

As an example, if life on earth was due to cross contamination, environmental conditions on earth would radically change the seed DNA from Mars. So even if complex life existed on Mars at the same time it existed on Earth, both planets would have radically different forms of life, even if they had similar building blocks to start with.

Until we can actually get off earth and go to Mars or Jupiter's moons and find life, we are going to do nothing but speculate. But considering the variance of life on earth and the conditions they live in, we might have to consider changing how we view the conditions life requires.

:Broncos:

Quoydogs
05-04-2010, 03:51 PM
So I have a question ? I mean no disrespect for this but how can you believe in alien life and God ? Wouldn't the bible talk about this? Just curious.

TheReverend
05-04-2010, 04:12 PM
Compassion is something that leads to diminishing fitness. For survival, you generally need fit discrete individuals over communities of individuals with fewer resources.

And yet here we sit, with a more dominant grip over the planet and it's resources and species with each passing generation... soooooo gonna have to say we've disproved your opinion.

We have new standards for survival that we've set. We've damn near eliminated natural evolution and replaced it with social. Look around... traits like beauty, intelligence and strength still dominate the top echelon of reproduction.

Mogulseeker
05-04-2010, 06:06 PM
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Rohirrim
05-04-2010, 06:11 PM
I just hope they're not large amphibians with floppy ears who speak in bad Jamaican lingo.

Gort
05-04-2010, 06:18 PM
Like everyone's said, it's a numbers game. There are billions of stars in our galaxy and billions upon billions of galaxies in the known universe.

that's false logic.

laws of probability only apply for random processes. until somebody can show life spontaneously appearing just by mixing together chemicals, there is no evidence that the existence of life is the result of a random process.

that's not a religious or anti-religious argument.

UberBroncoMan
05-04-2010, 06:21 PM
... another person voted no. That's 14 (again damn you OP for not making it public).

Can anyone who voted no give some insight into your logic behind your vote?

Rohirrim
05-04-2010, 06:29 PM
Aliens did land at Roswell, New Mexico in the 1950s. Then, we deported them.

UberBroncoMan
05-04-2010, 06:35 PM
Aliens did land at Roswell, New Mexico in the 1950s. Then, we deported them.

... to Mexico...

and then they disguised themselves among the humans as they slowly gained power. Some of them even crossed the border back into the USA and begin to gain influence here.

In the process they've built a vast underground network to live in with their normal bodies along with a dish system that they've been using to heat up the entire planet to a climate that they are accustomed too.

HOLY ****!

orinjkrush
05-04-2010, 06:39 PM
of course aliens exist...they're either legal or illegal

if you want to read about legal extraterrestrials, google the yellow book

that will make your hair stand on end.

epicSocialism4tw
05-04-2010, 06:48 PM
Human beings are biologically the way they are today because of environmental factors from the past. We stand up and walk on two legs because our ancestral species spent more time on open savanahs and had to be able to see predators. We developed a larger brain as our species began to develop complex socialization. We began to eat meat to fuel a brain that required more calories than fruits and leaves could offer...which only pushed for larger brain development as we began to coordinate hunts and form larger groups...

Thats a way to describe it, yes. Almost more Lamarckian than I would suggest, but the general idea is there. What you are describing there is natural selection over generations. You can also take into account sexual selection.

As an example, if life on earth was due to cross contamination, environmental conditions on earth would radically change the seed DNA from Mars. So even if complex life existed on Mars at the same time it existed on Earth, both planets would have radically different forms of life, even if they had similar building blocks to start with.

Well, technically, the "seeding" idea doesnt pass muster. Its circular reasoning based on extrapolating our knowledge of ourselves across the universe. Its saying: "there is life here, therefore there is life everywhere", which may well be true, but we have yet to confirm that speculation. We're also speculating the nature of that life. DNA is characteristic of life on this planet, including all plant life. It may be a condition of the universe...present in all things under the law of our universe, but we dont know for sure. That kind of speculation isnt capable of being proven right now.

A strand of DNA is specific. It codes for proteins. Its a chemical generator that by its interrelationships of codons and conformations spits out a complicated, three-dimensional, systematic set of proteins that are "programmed" physically to create an increasingly convoluted order of complexity when large numbers of those proteins and macromolecules form scaffolding and interact to formulate a larger purpose, which interrelate to form organelles, and increasingly complex characters all the way up to the conversations between cultures.

It wouldnt be DNA that was "seeded" here, it would have been amino acids that had the ability to reproduce themselves and protect themselves from the harsh chemical environment.

epicSocialism4tw
05-04-2010, 06:57 PM
And yet here we sit, with a more dominant grip over the planet and it's resources and species with each passing generation... soooooo gonna have to say we've disproved your opinion.

First off, humans are not even close to the most "dominant" species on the planet in regards to distribution or resource management. That's obviously bacteria, which our lives literally depend on. Were not the best fit, were not the most numerous, were not the longest-standing, were not the most capable of survival into the future.

I'm not sure who told you those lies, but don't listen to them anymore.

We have new standards for survival that we've set. We've damn near eliminated natural evolution and replaced it with social. Look around... traits like beauty, intelligence and strength still dominate the top echelon of reproduction.

Ha!

Did you just say that we "eliminated" natural selection?

What you are vaguely stabbing at is something called sexual selection, which is only a supplement to natural selection.

Rabb
05-04-2010, 06:57 PM
I wonder if aliens have message boards for their sports and go there for relationship advice, then show it to their mate...making the thread (or whatever they call it) go down as one of their board's greatest.

robbieopperude
05-04-2010, 06:57 PM
So I have a question ? I mean no disrespect for this but how can you believe in alien life and God ? Wouldn't the bible talk about this? Just curious.

I will try to answer this. I believe that god created everything. The universe, earth, humans, life.

Science shows there was likely a big bang. God created this in my opinion.

Humans have taken lessons from God/Jesus and we believe that he created us in his image. But there is also all kinds of other life on this planet.

If life thrives on this planet why can God not have created another planet with life as well?

Rabb
05-04-2010, 06:59 PM
I will try to answer this. I believe that god created everything. The universe, earth, humans, life.

Science shows there was likely a big bang. God created this in my opinion.

Humans have taken lessons from God/Jesus and we believe that he created us in his image. But there is also all kinds of other life on this planet.

If life thrives on this planet why can God not have created another planet with life as well?

on the same note, who's to say that there isn't more than one God

epicSocialism4tw
05-04-2010, 07:05 PM
on the same note, who's to say that there isn't more than one God

God said it. :welcome:

robbieopperude
05-04-2010, 08:11 PM
on the same note, who's to say that there isn't more than one God

Not sure about this but throughout man's history we have repeatedly believed in various gods, sun gods, water gods, gods for rain, crops, roman gods, Zeus, Athena. Right now there are various religions throughout the world but I think most concentrate on the idea of one god.

Mogulseeker
05-04-2010, 08:47 PM
And yet here we sit, with a more dominant grip over the planet and it's resources and species with each passing generation... soooooo gonna have to say we've disproved your opinion.

We have new standards for survival that we've set. We've damn near eliminated natural evolution and replaced it with social. Look around... traits like beauty, intelligence and strength still dominate the top echelon of reproduction.

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it's not the right time to be sober
now the idiots have taken over
spreading like a social cancer, is there an answer?

Mensa membership conceding
tell me why and how are all the stupid people breeding
Watson, it's really elementary
the industrial revolution
has flipped the bitch on evolution
the benevolent and wise are being thwarted, ostracized, what a bummer
the world keeps getting dumber
insensitivity is standard and faith is being fancied over reason

darwin's rollin over in his coffin
the fittest are surviving much less often
now everything seems to be reversing, and it's worsening
someone flopped a steamer in the gene pool
now angry mob mentality's no longer the exception, it's the rule
and im startin to feel a lot like charlton heston
stranded on a primate planet
apes and orangutans that ran it to the ground
with generals and the armies that obeyed them
followers following fables
philosophies that enable them to rule without regard

there's no point for democracy when ignorance is celebrated
political scientists get the same one vote as some Arkansas inbred
majority rule, don't work in mental institutions
sometimes the smallest softest voice carries the grand biggest solutions

what are we left with?
a nation of god-fearing pregnant nationalists
who feel it's their duty to populate the homeland
pass on traditions
how to get ahead religions
And prosperity via simpleton culture

the idiots are takin over

24champ
05-04-2010, 09:28 PM
I wonder if aliens have message boards for their sports and go there for relationship advice, then show it to their mate...making the thread (or whatever they call it) go down as one of their board's greatest.

Aliens exist, they show up here in the human form. Seek out their test subjects in Texas, and then return to the Mother Ship which is located in Myrtle Beach, SC with said test subject.

Rabb
05-04-2010, 09:36 PM
Aliens exist, they show up here in the human form. Seek out their test subjects in Texas, and then return to the Mother Ship which is located in Myrtle Beach, SC with said test subject.

Hilarious!

Mogulseeker
05-04-2010, 11:05 PM
Question: wouldn't they had to have visited the Earth to be considered "aliens"? Otherwise they would just be considered foreign life.

I study International Politics and Business Leadership - I'm no scientist. I absolutley think there is intelligent life out there, and I absolutley think that we will never come in contact with them in a realist sense.

Like Carl Sagan, I certainly believe that there are other planets with intelligent life. Richard Dawkins hypothesizes that there is approximately a 1/1billionth of a chance for a planet to develop the proper capabilities to sustain life and a 1/100billionth of a chance to Deoxyribonucleic Acid to materialize. There are over a billion planets in our galaxy alone, and over 100 billion galaxies. The result? An estimated 30 billion planet earths with sustainable life.

Edit - I'm sure other scientists have addressed this hypothesis, I just cited Dawkins because he's the scientist that I've read who addresses this issue, obviously playing up the chances that life can, and indeed is destined to, evolve.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-04-2010, 11:33 PM
God said it. :welcome:

:rofl:

And your evidence for this is........?

epicSocialism4tw
05-04-2010, 11:46 PM
:rofl:

And your evidence for this is........?

Ask Plato.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-04-2010, 11:53 PM
Ask Plato.

Ha!

Plato had evidence that "God said it?"

epicSocialism4tw
05-05-2010, 12:08 AM
Ha!

Plato had evidence that "God said it?"

Dont know much Plato, eh?

JDB7821
05-05-2010, 12:10 AM
Clearly the biggest issue here is not if there is intelligent life abroad, but if we have been contacted. I think at this point in history, we have no way of knowing either one. Just to ruffle some feathers, can anyone say with 100% conviction that Jesus wasn't from another world? Obviously a lot of people are going to laugh at the notion, but if we were contacted from another world, I have to believe they'd be smart enough not to let us know.

Archer81
05-05-2010, 12:25 AM
Clearly the biggest issue here is not if there is intelligent life abroad, but if we have been contacted. I think at this point in history, we have no way of knowing either one. Just to ruffle some feathers, can anyone say with 100% conviction that Jesus wasn't from another world? Obviously a lot of people are going to laugh at the notion, but if we were contacted from another world, I have to believe they'd be smart enough not to let us know.


...for what reason?


:Broncos:

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-05-2010, 12:26 AM
Dont know much Plato, eh?

Way to dodge. :welcome:

JDB7821
05-05-2010, 12:34 AM
...for what reason?


:Broncos:

I didn't mean for that to be the main focus of my post, but just hypothetically speaking, it could possibly be for the exact reason he is remembered...to "save humanity." I do NOT want to turn this into a religious debate, but the things that he reportedly did, to the untrained eye, would seem other-worldly. I believe that when talking about intelligent beings outside of this universe, you have to think outside the box. IF it was possible for those beings to contact us, I believe it would be in a simple and subtle way. Masking the contact with widely accepted, extravagant historical events seems just as likely as any other way.

Archer81
05-05-2010, 12:36 AM
I didn't mean for that to be the main focus of my post, but just hypothetically speaking, it could possibly be for the exact reason he is remembered...to "save humanity." I do NOT want to turn this into a religious debate, but the things that he reportedly did, to the untrained eye, would seem other-worldly. I believe that when talking about intelligent beings outside of this universe, you have to think outside the box. IF it was possible for those beings to contact us, I believe it would be in a simple and subtle way. Masking the contact with widely accepted, extravagant historical events seems just as likely as any other way.


by spawning a religion?


:Broncos:

JDB7821
05-05-2010, 12:44 AM
by spawning a religion?


:Broncos:

That's the point...if we were contacted by aliens, no one knows what the purpose would be. My argument is that they could just as likely contact us to sway our civilization down a certain path for their own personal gain, through the manipulation of a widespread religion, as it could be to rape us of whatever resources they deemed necessary. Although the latter seems more likely to be accepted, the idea that we were the result of some awkward alien "experiment" is just as possible.

My point is that IF we were contacted, I have to believe we wouldn't know it at this point. I don't believe we would have anything to offer an advanced race with super-capable technologies.

ZONA
05-05-2010, 01:09 AM
Objects do not increase in mass upon accelleation, they increace in force.

Actually, at the speed of light, mass would be zero.

Sorry Dude.

I mean........................

For real? The great Mock has done what no other scientist has done for generations. He's proven Einstein's Theory Of Special Relativity to be wrong. I guess E does not = MC2. Please Mock, explain to all of us just how an object moving at the speed of light (other then a photon, which has no rest mass to begin with) obtains a mass of 0 while moving at light speed. I assume your object has some type of mass at rest. So the faster it goes, you're saying an object loses mass and doesn't gain it? Wow. I'm no physicist but I know Einstein was one of the greatest of all time and you're not just saying he's wrong, you're saying the truth is the complete opposite?

robbieopperude
05-05-2010, 02:04 AM
That's the point...if we were contacted by aliens, no one knows what the purpose would be. My argument is that they could just as likely contact us to sway our civilization down a certain path for their own personal gain, through the manipulation of a widespread religion, as it could be to rape us of whatever resources they deemed necessary. Although the latter seems more likely to be accepted, the idea that we were the result of some awkward alien "experiment" is just as possible.

My point is that IF we were contacted, I have to believe we wouldn't know it at this point. I don't believe we would have anything to offer an advanced race with super-capable technologies.

I do. I am not saying this happens but you can find people who claimed to have been experimented on, had there organs studied, had surgical implants in there brain or body, and a whole bunch of other crazy stuff.

And if there not just interested in humans perhaps they are interested in our Earth's natural resources which could be different than there own. Quartz, gold, silver, uranium perhaps.

Maybe they don't have poles on there planet that cause magnetic fields which effect metal. Maybe they don't have a moon near there planet or the correct makeup of land to grow certain types of crops and fruit.

I'm just saying there is alot of reasons why they may visit us if they have the capabilities. Not just to destroy us.

And to think about things from a military stand point would you just go rolling in no holds barred because you think you have the best technology and weapons or would you study your opponent covertly to identify weaknesses and strengths before making a decision.

TheReverend
05-05-2010, 06:35 AM
First off, humans are not even close to the most "dominant" species on the planet in regards to distribution or resource management. That's obviously bacteria, which our lives literally depend on. Were not the best fit, were not the most numerous, were not the longest-standing, were not the most capable of survival into the future.

I'm not sure who told you those lies, but don't listen to them anymore.



Ha!

Did you just say that we "eliminated" natural selection?

What you are vaguely stabbing at is something called sexual selection, which is only a supplement to natural selection.

Your reading comprehension is beyond terrible.

Rohirrim
05-05-2010, 09:10 AM
Did you ever think that "we" might be the aliens? There are some scientists who believe that single-celled life forms might be carried on comets that crash into developing planets for eons. Sooner or later, some planet will have the right conditions - water, an atmosphere - for those life forms to begin to evolve. It's similar to the process of trees throwing their seeds into the wind. Some seeds land where they can grow.

We are the stuff of stars. ;D

Requiem
05-05-2010, 09:18 AM
Your reading comprehension is beyond terrible.

He is really taking a lot of stabs in the dark in this thread. It is really embarrassing. He always discusses his prominent education and admitted the other day he's dabbled in anthropology, but he needs to do a lot more than dabble. He would be blown out of the water from the kids taking their entry level 200 course on biological anthropology and human origins.

Requiem
05-05-2010, 09:20 AM
I don't believe we would have anything to offer an advanced race with super-capable technologies.

Materials and knowledge of our realm. The relationship between other intelligent life and us isn't a one way street. Don't get somethin' for nothing. Many have argued that I.L. has came here to learn about materials and other matter, and we are interested in learning about alternate dimensions and places beyond our knowledge.

epicSocialism4tw
05-05-2010, 09:23 AM
We are the stuff of stars.

Whether we arrived on the back of a rock or not, we are still "the stuff of stars". We literally are the product of stardust. Seriously. How cool is that?

Rohirrim
05-05-2010, 09:25 AM
Actually, I should have credited that line for those who don't know. It was Carl Sagan's catch phrase, "We are the stuff of stars." If you don't know who Carl Sagan was, you should look him up. It will be a rewarding experience.

epicSocialism4tw
05-05-2010, 09:26 AM
Your reading comprehension is beyond terrible.

Sorry there, fella...youre the one who said that humans have evolved beyond the scope of natural selection, which is not true in the least, and never will be true.

Have you ever thought of why people freak out about the flu every year?

Requiem
05-05-2010, 09:28 AM
Actually, I should have credited that line for those who don't know. It was Carl Sagan's catch phrase, "We are the stuff of stars." If you don't know who Carl Sagan was, you should look him up. It will be a rewarding experience.

http://dawn.cbcr3.com/podcast/images/radio3/20081107/Hot-Carl.jpg

Hot Carl Sagan. :~ohyah!:

TheReverend
05-05-2010, 09:51 AM
Sorry there, fella...youre the one who said that humans have evolved beyond the scope of natural selection, which is not true in the least, and never will be true.

Have you ever thought of why people freak out about the flu every year?

No... no I didn't say that. Thus the reference to your reading comprehension.

I said our ever developing compassion has eliminated most of the natural selection process...

Great point about flu shots... our compassionate society sets up free flu inoculation clinics also every year. So what the **** is precisely your point? This is your big point on the modern prevalence of natural selection is influenza? If so, you should completely rethink your argument considering out of roughly 41k of the people in the US that die from it annually the vast majority are the elderly... so how that ties into your natural selection theory is silly at best.

epicSocialism4tw
05-05-2010, 10:15 AM
No... no I didn't say that. Thus the reference to your reading comprehension.

I said our ever developing compassion has eliminated most of the natural selection process...

Nothing we have done has eliminated any of the "natural selection process". Natural selection is like gravity. You can throw a ball up in the air and know that gravity will decelerate that object and then accelerate it toward the center of the earth. Natural selection is the law. You dont violate it or minimize it. I'll address that more when I get to your next point.

Great point about flu shots... our compassionate society sets up free flu inoculation clinics also every year. So what the **** is precisely your point? This is your big point on the modern prevalence of natural selection is influenza? If so, you should completely rethink your argument considering out of roughly 41k of the people in the US that die from it annually the vast majority are the elderly... so how that ties into your natural selection theory is silly at best.

We innoculate people with the flu virus because new strains of the flu evolve every year that our immune systems do not recognize.

Have you ever thought about why people have freaked out about H1N1 and Bird Flu? I mean, its just flu right? Why the hysteria?

TheReverend
05-05-2010, 10:23 AM
Nothing we have done has eliminated any of the "natural selection process". Natural selection is like gravity. You can throw a ball up in the air and know that gravity will decelerate that object and then accelerate it toward the center of the earth. Natural selection is the law. You dont violate it or minimize it. I'll address that more when I get to your next point.



We innoculate people with the flu virus because new strains of the flu evolve every year that our immune systems do not recognize.

Have you ever thought about why people have freaked out about H1N1 and Bird Flu? I mean, its just flu right? Why the hysteria?

Because the media blew it enormously out of proportion.

2500 confirmed deaths from H1N1... and speculation puts its max at 17000. This is absurd that this is your modern "evidence". Heart disease kills 631,000 Americans yearly, just to put your H1N1 "hysteria" in perspective.

Will you PLEASE make a point worth continuing this discussion since you've de-railed the thread, or is talking to you pointless?

Requiem
05-05-2010, 10:25 AM
Yes, it is pointless. He is a retard.

Bronco Yoda
05-05-2010, 10:28 AM
The Vacines are a way for the Aliens to enslave us. It's true!.... I saw it on V.

The V's are Aliens.


/Thread back on track... :)

epicSocialism4tw
05-05-2010, 01:42 PM
Because the media blew it enormously out of proportion.

2500 confirmed deaths from H1N1... and speculation puts its max at 17000. This is absurd that this is your modern "evidence". Heart disease kills 631,000 Americans yearly, just to put your H1N1 "hysteria" in perspective.

Will you PLEASE make a point worth continuing this discussion since you've de-railed the thread, or is talking to you pointless?

Since you dont know, then I'll tell you.

You claimed that humans had in some way exempted themselves from natural selection. Epidemiologists believe that the flu virus is a couple of mutations away from ripping through the human population like the Black Plague. The flu is so virulent that it will happen in a flash, and it will be extremely difficult to get a handle on.

So. As you are clearly having trouble putting the dots together here, let me help you out. Humans through their knowledge of medicine have extended the average life span, however we have also increased the possibility of being nearly wiped out completely by superbugs. Through our use of antibiotics we have also helped create bacteria that are immune to it. Ever hear of MRSA or drug-resistant tuberculosis? When a human dies from disease, it is a case of where they were selected against due to their inability to combat the disease. There are alot of terminal diseases. Natural selection is as real as it ever was.

TheReverend
05-05-2010, 01:48 PM
Since you dont know, then I'll tell you.

You claimed that humans had in some way exempted themselves from natural selection. Epidemiologists believe that the flu virus is a couple of mutations away from ripping through the human population like the Black Plague. The flu is so virulent that it will happen in a flash, and it will be extremely difficult to get a handle on.

So. As you are clearly having trouble putting the dots together here, let me help you out. Humans through their knowledge of medicine have extended the average life span, however we have also increased the possibility of being nearly wiped out completely by superbugs. Through our use of antibiotics we have also helped create bacteria that are immune to it. Ever hear of MRSA or drug-resistant tuberculosis? When a human dies from disease, it is a case of where they were selected against due to their inability to combat the disease. There are alot of terminal diseases. Natural selection is as real as it ever was.

Genius... I'm very aware of these POSSIBILITIES... and they're not new either. The flu has ALWAYS been a "couple mutations" away from being apocalyptic.

Fact: They don't exist at the moment, rendering your point moot.

Fact: If they do mutate into some extremely deadly avian flu that becomes even more communable with modern transportation, we'll be facing it with medicine and if we can't find a cure and need to rely on adaptation, THEN your point comes into effect... no sooner.

epicSocialism4tw
05-05-2010, 01:56 PM
Fact: They don't exist at the moment, rendering your point moot.

MRSA and drug resistant TB exist NOW. They are killing people right NOW.

Fact: If they do mutate into some extremely deadly avian flu that becomes even more communable with modern transportation, we'll be facing it with medicine and if we can't find a cure and need to rely on adaptation, THEN your point comes into effect... no sooner.

It always will boil down to what happens with natural selection. Always.

Since you think you are an expert on the subject, and clearly dont know what you are talking about, I would suggest spending a little time learning about what evolution actually is. I have given you hints (trying to be nice) all throughout our interaction here, but I guess some people have to be told. Good luck.

TheReverend
05-05-2010, 04:31 PM
MRSA and drug resistant TB exist NOW. They are killing people right NOW.



It always will boil down to what happens with natural selection. Always.

Since you think you are an expert on the subject, and clearly dont know what you are talking about, I would suggest spending a little time learning about what evolution actually is. I have given you hints (trying to be nice) all throughout our interaction here, but I guess some people have to be told. Good luck.

One LAST time...

TB death toll total is UNDER 1,000 people in the US annually. Your argument is absurd. The best examples of natural selection you can to refute have been things that are responsible for a fraction of a percent of annual deaths in first world nations, and are usually only lethal to the elderly. So through natural selection we're weeding out, what, .00001% of genetic traits?

Which leads me back to my original statement:

And yet here we sit, with a more dominant grip over the planet and it's resources and species with each passing generation... soooooo gonna have to say we've disproved your opinion.

We have new standards for survival that we've set. We've damn near eliminated natural evolution and replaced it with social. Look around... traits like beauty, intelligence and strength still dominate the top echelon of reproduction.

Damn near. Not entirely. Damn near. And you've only used examples to reinforce my original statement. So I say again: your reading comprehension is piss poor and I'll add this, "You're stupid".

AZorange1
05-05-2010, 05:01 PM
When you think about it, a person would have to be arrogant as hell to believe we are the only ones in an area so vast it defies imagination.

Lomax
05-05-2010, 05:07 PM
And yet here we sit, with a more dominant grip over the planet and it's resources and species with each passing generation... soooooo gonna have to say we've disproved your opinion.

We have new standards for survival that we've set. We've damn near eliminated natural evolution and replaced it with social. Look around... traits like beauty, intelligence and strength still dominate the top echelon of reproduction.

I don't believe so. Social evolution is a type of natural evolution. We've replaced the definition of "fitness" to match a social construct, but not the dynamic of survival. It's just that we haven't reached critical mass (we're still in the middle of a population explosion), so even unfit humans have resources to survive.

When and if critical mass is reached, you will see natural evolution kick in. Resources are distributed first to those members of a society with the highest survivability. Social leaders at the top. The smartest, most driven people. The strongest and fittest. The most beautiful. Those lacking in those areas will be the first checked off the list.

For a glimpse at human nature, just watch disaster movies like Deep Impact. I guarantee that if resources are suddenly depleted severely, only those deemed the "best" members of society will have access to them, in the interest of "preserving the species".

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
05-05-2010, 05:20 PM
Did you ever think that "we" might be the aliens? There are some scientists who believe that single-celled life forms might be carried on comets that crash into developing planets for eons. Sooner or later, some planet will have the right conditions - water, an atmosphere - for those life forms to begin to evolve. It's similar to the process of trees throwing their seeds into the wind. Some seeds land where they can grow.

We are the stuff of stars. ;D

http://www.panspermia.org/

baja
05-05-2010, 05:21 PM
Since you dont know, then I'll tell you.

You claimed that humans had in some way exempted themselves from natural selection. Epidemiologists believe that the flu virus is a couple of mutations away from ripping through the human population like the Black Plague. The flu is so virulent that it will happen in a flash, and it will be extremely difficult to get a handle on.

So. As you are clearly having trouble putting the dots together here, let me help you out. Humans through their knowledge of medicine have extended the average life span, however we have also increased the possibility of being nearly wiped out completely by superbugs. Through our use of antibiotics we have also helped create bacteria that are immune to it. Ever hear of MRSA or drug-resistant tuberculosis? When a human dies from disease, it is a case of where they were selected against due to their inability to combat the disease. There are alot of terminal diseases. Natural selection is as real as it ever was.

I have wonderful news for you all. We have a cure for these mutant virus'. It is called MMS

Here check it out for yourselves.

http://www.miraclemineral.org/

It works on the atomic level.

Don't leave home without it...

Lomax
05-05-2010, 05:33 PM
Question: wouldn't they had to have visited the Earth to be considered "aliens"? Otherwise they would just be considered foreign life.

I study International Politics and Business Leadership - I'm no scientist. I absolutley think there is intelligent life out there, and I absolutley think that we will never come in contact with them in a realist sense.

Like Carl Sagan, I certainly believe that there are other planets with intelligent life. Richard Dawkins hypothesizes that there is approximately a 1/1billionth of a chance for a planet to develop the proper capabilities to sustain life and a 1/100billionth of a chance to Deoxyribonucleic Acid to materialize. There are over a billion planets in our galaxy alone, and over 100 billion galaxies. The result? An estimated 30 billion planet earths with sustainable life.

Edit - I'm sure other scientists have addressed this hypothesis, I just cited Dawkins because he's the scientist that I've read who addresses this issue, obviously playing up the chances that life can, and indeed is destined to, evolve.

Has it been universally agreed upon that DNA simply materializes out of the right conditions? Based on what? (Have we simulated this process?) There could be billions upon billions of planets in billions of galaxies with the right conditions, but there is absolutely no consensus on what conditions would need to occur to stimulate the creation of life.

Thus all arguments regarding the probability that life exists elsewhere are moot. There is no probability, because there is only one example of it ever happening.

It's not entirely out of the realm of possibility that life is the rarest thing in the universe. Not the conditions, but life itself. How could someone logically refute that argument, based on what we know?

TheReverend
05-05-2010, 05:44 PM
I don't believe so. Social evolution is a type of natural evolution. We've replaced the definition of "fitness" to match a social construct, but not the dynamic of survival. It's just that we haven't reached critical mass (we're still in the middle of a population explosion), so even unfit humans have resources to survive.

When and if critical mass is reached, you will see natural evolution kick in. Resources are distributed first to those members of a society with the highest survivability. Social leaders at the top. The smartest, most driven people. The strongest and fittest. The most beautiful. Those lacking in those areas will be the first checked off the list.

For a glimpse at human nature, just watch disaster movies like Deep Impact. I guarantee that if resources are suddenly depleted severely, only those deemed the "best" members of society will have access to them, in the interest of "preserving the species".

You realize you just absolutely agreed with me only added a caveat that we'll revert back to a more standard natural selection after we reach this critical mass? Not to mention your caveat is dependent on civilization not inventing ways to circumvent these potential problems.

Lomax
05-05-2010, 07:20 PM
You realize you just absolutely agreed with me only added a caveat that we'll revert back to a more standard natural selection after we reach this critical mass? Not to mention your caveat is dependent on civilization not inventing ways to circumvent these potential problems.

Right. Point being, as long as we have "limitless" resources, we can survive with compassion, as you stated. Once resources are limited, compassion disappears.

Now, let's imagine a scenario where the only way to continue the species is to find another planet with conditions such as our own, with indigenous life on it. Do you believe that our "compassionate" society would instead prefer to wither and die here on Earth, or would we manifest destiny and take over that planet if we could?

I believe we would take them over without a second thought. We would take the hostile indigenous populations and kill them or isolate them from ourselves. Sure, we would cry about it as we did it, but I don't have much doubt that the end result would be a fit population surviving and an unfit population dying. I don't see why this would be any different for an alien species.

TheReverend
05-05-2010, 08:28 PM
Right. Point being, as long as we have "limitless" resources, we can survive with compassion, as you stated. Once resources are limited, compassion disappears.

Now, let's imagine a scenario where the only way to continue the species is to find another planet with conditions such as our own, with indigenous life on it. Do you believe that our "compassionate" society would instead prefer to wither and die here on Earth, or would we manifest destiny and take over that planet if we could?

I believe we would take them over without a second thought. We would take the hostile indigenous populations and kill them or isolate them from ourselves. Sure, we would cry about it as we did it, but I don't have much doubt that the end result would be a fit population surviving and an unfit population dying. I don't see why this would be any different for an alien species.

Thank you for the following two things:
1. Nice to turn this discussion back on topic
2. You're rebuilding the brain cells that talking to Llama destroyed

Now, I think you have a strong point, but it's dependent on that specific scenario. A lot of our exploration HAS been resource dependent, but even more has been driven by discovery. I'd expect the latter to view us more as we view endangered species and potentially place them in a care-taker role.

Like yours, this is all scenario and speculation driven, so who really knows. A lot of the ancient astronaut theory is that they did come to Earth needing resources and either enslaved/created humans as slaves to mine the materials for them. Sounds mutually beneficial, but naturally that most likely is not our origin, and if it was, it was a significantly different phase of human development and independence.

Rohirrim
05-05-2010, 08:56 PM
http://www.panspermia.org/

Not only that, but perhaps those first organisms not only land on a hospitable planet and begin to spread, but they may actually take over and begin to mold the planet to the environment most conducive to an explosion of life, ie, they fill it with oxygen, even though the oxygen filled world eventually ends their existence. http://www.fossilmuseum.net/Tree_of_Life/Stromatolites.htm

Requiem
05-05-2010, 09:07 PM
I think Jeff gordon may be an aALien.

robbieopperude
05-05-2010, 09:34 PM
Has it been universally agreed upon that DNA simply materializes out of the right conditions? Based on what? (Have we simulated this process?) There could be billions upon billions of planets in billions of galaxies with the right conditions, but there is absolutely no consensus on what conditions would need to occur to stimulate the creation of life.

Thus all arguments regarding the probability that life exists elsewhere are moot. There is no probability, because there is only one example of it ever happening.

It's not entirely out of the realm of possibility that life is the rarest thing in the universe. Not the conditions, but life itself. How could someone logically refute that argument, based on what we know?

This is a very good argument against the likeliness of life on other planets. I have heard it before and there really isn't much evidence to prove that this isn't true. We have some speculation that proteins or single celled organisms maybe hitched a ride from outer space and crashed here. Thus alien life existed outside of earth. But is widely debated.

My biggest belief, and it is only a belief, is that from what I have seen on earth is that life finds away. It mutates, such as was discussed in the debate about natural selection above, it fights, it strives to live. If it battles so hard here then I imagine it does the same elsewhere.

Rohirrim
05-05-2010, 10:29 PM
I believe that at the moment of the Big Bang (if that is what created the universe) life was also created. Comets were it's seed pods and they were flung by the billions throughout the universe; Balls of ice to accompany the stars and planets, where they would find the environment to flourish. We see it on our own Earth. The trees cast their seeds into the wind by the millions. Plants and animals in the sea cast their seed into the currents in the billions, so prolific in fact, that entire species, like whales for instance, feed on the plankton. Life is not fragile. It is unstoppable. I imagine it fills the universe, in every available nook and cranny.

baja
05-05-2010, 10:48 PM
I believe that at the moment of the Big Bang (if that is what created the universe) life was also created. Comets were it's seed pods and they were flung by the billions throughout the universe; Balls of ice to accompany the stars and planets, where they would find the environment to flourish. We see it on our own Earth. The trees cast their seeds into the wind by the millions. Plants and animals in the sea cast their seed into the currents in the billions, so prolific in fact, that entire species, like whales for instance, feed on the plankton. Life is not fragile. It is unstoppable. I imagine it fills the universe, in every available nook and cranny.

This post shows much wisdom.

We are all part of endlessly repeating and blending patterns and cycles.

The dance goes on...

Ugly Duck
05-06-2010, 06:20 AM
Life is not fragile. It is unstoppable. I imagine it fills the universe, in every available nook and cranny.

Life is created by God. We are created in His image. The Bible, the infallible Word of God, gives man dominion over all other creatures. The Bible sez nothing about about aliens, so they cannot exist. If they do exist, we have been given dominion over them as well. We are the epitome of life, second only to the Lord.

TheReverend
05-06-2010, 06:43 AM
Life is created by God. We are created in His image. The Bible, the infallible Word of God, gives man dominion over all other creatures. The Bible sez nothing about about aliens, so they cannot exist. If they do exist, we have been given dominion over them as well. We are the epitome of life, second only to the Lord.

http://blog.media-freaks.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/free-internet-games-for-kids15.jpg

"Lol humans"

Rohirrim
05-06-2010, 08:19 AM
Life is created by God. We are created in His image. The Bible, the infallible Word of God, gives man dominion over all other creatures. The Bible sez nothing about about aliens, so they cannot exist. If they do exist, we have been given dominion over them as well. We are the epitome of life, second only to the Lord.

Ahh, I see you are a man of science. How do you tell the difference between a witch and a duck?

DenverBrit
05-06-2010, 09:31 AM
Life is created by God. We are created in His image. The Bible, the infallible Word of God, gives man dominion over all other creatures. The Bible sez nothing about about aliens, so they cannot exist. If they do exist, we have been given dominion over them as well. We are the epitome of life, second only to the Lord.

Do you think the plague of locusts was a metaphor for Raider's fans?

Arkie
05-06-2010, 11:38 AM
If the universe is infinite, then the possibilities of intelligent life are infinite, and the places for them to visit are infinite. That's why they haven't got around to our planet. Earth's age is minuscule compared to the universe. Not to mention, the human race is minuscule compared to the earth itself. Chances are slim that they even noticed our rock, much less the evolution of humans during this "universal microsecond."

TheReverend
05-06-2010, 11:41 AM
If the universe is infinite, then the possibilities of intelligent life are infinite, and the places for them to visit are infinite. That's why they haven't got around to our planet. Earth's age is minuscule compared to the universe. Not to mention, the human race is minuscule compared to the earth itself. Chances are slim that they even noticed our rock, much less the evolution of humans during this "universal microsecond."

Same logic would mean there are an infinite number of advanced intelligent life that have explored infinite locations in the universe :)

Arkie
05-06-2010, 11:45 AM
Same logic would mean there are an infinite number of advanced intelligent life that have explored infinite locations in the universe :)

True, and infinite places they haven't explored. They may have explored our location before the Sun existed.

TheReverend
05-06-2010, 12:02 PM
True, and infinite places they haven't explored. They may have explored our location before the Sun existed.

And they may have mathematics so advanced they could completely examine the development of the universe and it's locations with raw materials and burgeoning life.

Rohirrim
05-06-2010, 12:28 PM
Dinosaurs ruled this world for over 150 million years. We've been here, in our present, "civilized," city/state building form for a little over 10,000. The difference is mind boggling. Imagine where our mathematics will be in a million years?

Archer81
05-06-2010, 12:29 PM
Dinosaurs ruled this world for over 150 million years. We've been here, in our present, "civilized," city/state building form for a little over 10,000. The difference is mind boggling. Imagine where our mathematics will be in a million years?


If we make it til then.


:Broncos:

Rohirrim
05-06-2010, 12:31 PM
If we make it til then.


:Broncos:

That's why we need to colonize Mars. We have to have a back-up in case of a world destroying asteroid.

Dogsweat
05-06-2010, 12:31 PM
I believe in Illegal Aliens............

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils%20in%20Government/Open%20Borders/illegal_aliens-amnesty2.jpg

Lomax
05-06-2010, 01:04 PM
Thank you for the following two things:
1. Nice to turn this discussion back on topic
2. You're rebuilding the brain cells that talking to Llama destroyed

Now, I think you have a strong point, but it's dependent on that specific scenario. A lot of our exploration HAS been resource dependent, but even more has been driven by discovery. I'd expect the latter to view us more as we view endangered species and potentially place them in a care-taker role.

Like yours, this is all scenario and speculation driven, so who really knows. A lot of the ancient astronaut theory is that they did come to Earth needing resources and either enslaved/created humans as slaves to mine the materials for them. Sounds mutually beneficial, but naturally that most likely is not our origin, and if it was, it was a significantly different phase of human development and independence.

I don't believe that the desire for discovery is as strong as the desire to acquire resources for survival. After traveling to the moon 40 years ago, we haven't been back. Why? There is virtually nothing there of any value to us, and the cost of travel is too high.

If we were advanced enough to travel worlds away, it would still take disproportionate resources to do so. In order to support the use of these resources, we would need a considerable return on investment, which means greater resources, up to and including survival of the species.

Thus, if an alien species did reach across the galaxy, it would stand to reason that it wouldn't simply be for exploration. That would require that they were nearly omnipotent, having no resource or survival needs, which I think is a bigger assumption than that their resources for travel and survival are as limited as our own.

:strong::strong: <-- brain cells

TheReverend
05-06-2010, 01:20 PM
I don't believe that the desire for discovery is as strong as the desire to acquire resources for survival. After traveling to the moon 40 years ago, we haven't been back. Why? There is virtually nothing there of any value to us, and the cost of travel is too high.

If we were advanced enough to travel worlds away, it would still take disproportionate resources to do so. In order to support the use of these resources, we would need a considerable return on investment, which means greater resources, up to and including survival of the species.

Thus, if an alien species did reach across the galaxy, it would stand to reason that it wouldn't simply be for exploration. That would require that they were nearly omnipotent, having no resource or survival needs, which I think is a bigger assumption than that their resources for travel and survival are as limited as our own.

:strong::strong: <-- brain cells

I fully disagree with this. After all, we did GO to the moon so that fully supports the explorer concept. We also continue to delve into space exploration and when we feel confident about Mars travel, you can be certain we'll send someone there... whether we obtain resources from the trip or not.

For the rest of the post, yes you have a point about disproportionate resources from a CURRENT technological standpoint... but that says nothing about what may come with future alternative energies, propulsion systems, physics developments etc. After all, we're still exploring and studying Antartica and the oceans.

Rohirrim
05-06-2010, 01:27 PM
Curiousity is a powerful force.

broncosteven
05-06-2010, 01:39 PM
I don't believe that the desire for discovery is as strong as the desire to acquire resources for survival. After traveling to the moon 40 years ago, we haven't been back. Why? There is virtually nothing there of any value to us, and the cost of travel is too high.

If we were advanced enough to travel worlds away, it would still take disproportionate resources to do so. In order to support the use of these resources, we would need a considerable return on investment, which means greater resources, up to and including survival of the species.

Thus, if an alien species did reach across the galaxy, it would stand to reason that it wouldn't simply be for exploration. That would require that they were nearly omnipotent, having no resource or survival needs, which I think is a bigger assumption than that their resources for travel and survival are as limited as our own.

:strong::strong: <-- brain cells


I am jumpping back into this thread with out catching up but this caught my attention.

The only reason we decided to go to the moon was to give Kennedy something to cling to in the cold war. No green light from Kennedy and no mancrush for me.

If we really wanted to we could be exploring the outer planets and send more deep space probes. Fact is no one wants to spend the money, they would rather bitch about Global warming than travel to other resource laden moons, who knows what is swimming under Titan's frozen layer. Just think if we could reduce the strain on the Earth by mining resources off world.

There is water on our Moon and water on Mars. We could have bases there in no time. It is not that hard in 1/6th G to setup a functional base. I would rather go to the moons of Saturn or Jupiter than bother with Mars but I will take a Mars mission.

It is just a matter of funding and a clear mission statement/goals set to acheive them.

I bet with the right funding and motivation we could have more powerfull and efficent ION or laser based engines which would shorten travel times within the solar system in the same time that we took to land men on the moon and return safely to Earth.

Sad thing is people would rather become hedge fund managers and CEO's than explorers of worlds.

epicSocialism4tw
05-06-2010, 01:44 PM
One LAST time...

TB death toll total is UNDER 1,000 people in the US annually. Your argument is absurd. The best examples of natural selection you can to refute have been things that are responsible for a fraction of a percent of annual deaths in first world nations, and are usually only lethal to the elderly. So through natural selection we're weeding out, what, .00001% of genetic traits?

The Pharmaceutical Revolution may have put some old diseases at arms length (smallpox, etc) in most of the civilized world and given you a false sense of space. AIDS, MRSA, and TB are all real problems without solutions. Those diseases are killing entire populations right now. TB is killing two million people a year, and runs rampant in Russian prisons. AIDS is widespread, but is especially devastating in Africa where it has become an emergency. The number of people across the globe that die from infections is huge.

You are extrapolating your obviously culturally-limited understanding of what life is like for humans on this planet. Humans are still consumed by environmental factors.

As hard-headed as you appear to be, I dont expect you to admit that you dont know what you are talking about or that you are wrong, but to be blunt, anyone who has studied evolution will look at your ridiculous statement and laugh.

TheReverend
05-06-2010, 01:56 PM
The Pharmaceutical Revolution may have put some old diseases at arms length (smallpox, etc) in most of the civilized world and given you a false sense of space. AIDS, MRSA, and TB are all real problems without solutions. Those diseases are killing entire populations right now. TB is killing two million people a year, and runs rampant in Russian prisons. AIDS is widespread, but is especially devastating in Africa where it has become an emergency. The number of people across the globe that die from infections is huge.

You are extrapolating your obviously culturally-limited understanding of what life is like for humans on this planet. Humans are still consumed by environmental factors.

As hard-headed as you appear to be, I dont expect you to admit that you dont know what you are talking about or that you are wrong, but to be blunt, anyone who has studied evolution will look at your ridiculous statement and laugh.

And you're clearly ignoring the statement you're replying to... AGAIN.

One LAST time...

TB death toll total is UNDER 1,000 people in the US annually. Your argument is absurd. The best examples of natural selection you can to refute have been things that are responsible for a fraction of a percent of annual deaths in first world nations, and are usually only lethal to the elderly. So through natural selection we're weeding out, what, .00001% of genetic traits?

But that part about Russian prisons and AIDs in Africa is great... because that has something to do with my statements thus far. So why don't you take your extremely limited reading comprehension and but out of an enjoyable and intelligent conversation that LOMAX (and certainly NOT you) is providing me with.

epicSocialism4tw
05-06-2010, 02:19 PM
And you're clearly ignoring the statement you're replying to... AGAIN.

But that part about Russian prisons and AIDs in Africa is great... because that has something to do with my statements thus far. So why don't you take your extremely limited reading comprehension and but out of an enjoyable and intelligent conversation that LOMAX (and certainly NOT you) is providing me with.

:spit:

You're the one that made the claims that man is both "dominant" and has minimized natural selection which are both completely moronic claims. Ha!

You wouldnt know science if it farted in your face...and clearly it has.

Have fun with all that, PhDingleberry.

TheReverend
05-06-2010, 02:35 PM
:spit:

You're the one that made the claims that man is both "dominant" and has minimized natural selection which are both completely moronic claims. Ha!

You wouldnt know science if it farted in your face...and clearly it has.

Have fun with all that, PhDingleberry.

Upset that you couldn't come up with a single viable example of natural selection in a first world setting?

http://titterass.com/Pics/hurtfeelingsreport.jpg

Lomax
05-06-2010, 02:58 PM
I fully disagree with this. After all, we did GO to the moon so that fully supports the explorer concept. We also continue to delve into space exploration and when we feel confident about Mars travel, you can be certain we'll send someone there... whether we obtain resources from the trip or not.

For the rest of the post, yes you have a point about disproportionate resources from a CURRENT technological standpoint... but that says nothing about what may come with future alternative energies, propulsion systems, physics developments etc. After all, we're still exploring and studying Antartica and the oceans.

We are not a species of scientists. We are a species of animals fighting for survival. That survival instinct sometimes leads us to look to new horizons, but make no mistake, our goal is survival. Going to the moon and sending rovers to Mars does not preclude this fact. We are looking for useful things there, not just studying for the sake of academia. Research costs money. Money that could otherwise be used for better roads or cleaner air or better weapons. Do you honestly believe that any government wants to sacrifice these things for PURE exploration just for curiosity's sake?

If you doubt this, just take a look at the national budget. Then tell me how much of it will be spent on purely explorational endeavors. How much on harvesting resources? How much on war? Can there really be any doubt? I would go so far as to say that even the endeavors that appear to be explorational in nature are because such discoveries can lead to some benefit down the road.

Europe came to America to find resources. We split the atom to create a weapon. We went to the moon to beat the Russians and to build national pride. There was nothing there. We haven't been back. Scientists don't fund these endeavors. People do. People with survival needs.

As for your second point, actually, I think it's reasonable to hypothesize that the further you go, the more costly travel becomes, and that the cost is exponentially higher at each step. Regardless of technology. We are fairly advanced compared to people of the 1500's, yet it still costs more to fly across the ocean than it does to travel 2 miles down the road. So space exploration would likely be just as costly for aliens as it is for us to travel to our next frontier (Mars, for example). Not just the travel itself, but the research required to make it happen.

Hundreds of trillions of dollars or "credits" or whatever their mode of currency, poured into study and even more into the actual mechanism and fuel source, just so alien scientists can get their kicks and play in their sandbox? If they are at all like us, then that's highly unlikely.

Lomax
05-06-2010, 03:06 PM
I am jumpping back into this thread with out catching up but this caught my attention.

The only reason we decided to go to the moon was to give Kennedy something to cling to in the cold war. No green light from Kennedy and no mancrush for me.

If we really wanted to we could be exploring the outer planets and send more deep space probes. Fact is no one wants to spend the money, they would rather b**** about Global warming than travel to other resource laden moons, who knows what is swimming under Titan's frozen layer. Just think if we could reduce the strain on the Earth by mining resources off world.

There is water on our Moon and water on Mars. We could have bases there in no time. It is not that hard in 1/6th G to setup a functional base. I would rather go to the moons of Saturn or Jupiter than bother with Mars but I will take a Mars mission.

It is just a matter of funding and a clear mission statement/goals set to acheive them.

I bet with the right funding and motivation we could have more powerfull and efficent ION or laser based engines which would shorten travel times within the solar system in the same time that we took to land men on the moon and return safely to Earth.

Sad thing is people would rather become hedge fund managers and CEO's than explorers of worlds.

You're probably right. Which feeds back into my point, which is that we are not a society of curious scientists looking to find answers to academic questions. When we do, it's a means to an end. Water on mars. Water on the moon. Terraforming. Finding new fuel sources.

And even with that fact, the resources and money it takes is far too high for us to spend much energy on it. I would love to see us do it, but I understand why we don't. Guaranteed, if it was deemed cost effective, with a strong return on investment, we'd be there in an instant.

epicSocialism4tw
05-06-2010, 03:12 PM
Upset that you couldn't come up with a single viable example of natural selection in a first world setting?


Can you really be this stupid?

Seriously?

I just listed diseases that could end up demonstrating natural selection in the purest sense. When the plague rolled through Europe, it naturally selected (see that little play on words there...there may be something to it) for people with resistant genes. The same thing happens today with the AIDS virus. In developed nations even. Imagine that.

Here's another, though it may be a little to complicated for you. Have you ever heard of sickle cell anemia? Well here's an example of natural selection for you. People with sickle cell are less likely to contract Malaria. Sickle cell is also a genetic defect that shortens lifespan. Malaria has effected human populations so much that it bottlenecked the genes for red blood cell production in populations.

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/5522/scincevolution080103ms.jpg

broncosteven
05-06-2010, 03:18 PM
You're probably right. Which feeds back into my point, which is that we are not a society of curious scientists looking to find answers to academic questions. When we do, it's a means to an end. Water on mars. Water on the moon. Terraforming. Finding new fuel sources.

And even with that fact, the resources and money it takes is far too high for us to spend much energy on it. I would love to see us do it, but I understand why we don't. Guaranteed, if it was deemed cost effective, with a strong return on investment, we'd be there in an instant.

Same was said about Hybrid or electric cars a couple years ago. It will be interesting to see if Privatetizing(sp?) NASA helps but there are alternate fuels and alternate ways to get into orbit. Once in orbit or on the Moon the cost of a planatary mission goes way down.

TheReverend
05-06-2010, 03:40 PM
We are not a culture of scientists. We are a culture of animals fighting for survival. That survival instinct sometimes leads us to look to new horizons, but make no mistake, our goal is survival. Going to the moon and sending rovers to Mars does not preclude this fact. We are looking for useful things there, not just studying for the sake of academia. Research costs money. Money that could otherwise be used for better roads or cleaner air or better weapons. Do you honestly believe that any government wants to sacrifice these things for PURE exploration just for curiosity's sake?

I agree with a good chunk of this, but it's hardly an end-all-be-all statement. And, no, I don't think the motivation would solely be for curiosities sake or pure exploration... but what about in the name of progress? In fact, I think if you peruse the history of notable exploration, you'll find that the majority were progression motivated, though admittedly still a very large chunk were out of necessity/accidental/resource driven.

When the Soviets put the first cosmonaut in space, it wasn't for all the space gold they'd return with.

We don't spend billions on continuously repairing the Hubble telescope for any reason other than scientific progress and a greater understanding of the vast unknown... and that's more than enough for me. Wanting answers and wanting to understand the unknown is an extremely powerful human trait.

I think it's summed up perfectly in the words of Neil Armstrong: "One small step for man, one giant leap for mankind".

If you doubt this, just take a look at the national budget. Then tell me how much of it will be spent on purely explorational endeavors. How much on harvesting resources? How much on war? Can there really be any doubt? I would go so far as to say that even the endeavors that appear to be explorational in nature are because such discoveries can lead to some benefit down the road.

Europe came to America to find resources. We split the atom to create a weapon. We went to the moon to beat the Russians and to build national pride. There was nothing there. We haven't been back. Scientists don't fund these endeavors. People do. People with survival needs.

A lot of this ties into my previous response. NASA alone will receive 19 billion dollars this year, which is roughly .5% of the national budget. Certainly doesn't hold a candle to DoD funding, nor should it, but certainly not a drop in the bucket either. Not to mention... how much of other department's funding is transferable? What I mean is... it's not really feasable for us to go anywhere at the moment. For example, military R&D funding providing technological breakthroughs where we discover a new propulsion system that does make inter-planetary travel feasible. How long before NASA gets a big pump in dollars and we send someone to Mars? Not long at all.

After all, the national budget going to NASA when we had somewhere to go in the 60s was 5.5%.

As for your second point, actually, I think it's reasonable to hypothesize that the further you go, the more costly travel becomes, and that the cost is exponentially higher at each step. Regardless of technology. We are fairly advanced compared to people of the 1500's, yet it still costs more to fly across the ocean than it does to travel 2 miles down the road. So space exploration would likely be just as costly for aliens as it is for us to travel to our next frontier (Mars, for example). Not just the travel itself, but the research required to make it happen.

Hundreds of trillions of dollars or "credits" or whatever their mode of currency, poured into study and even more into the actual mechanism and fuel source, just so alien scientists can get their kicks and play in their sandbox? If they are at all like us, then that's highly unlikely.

I think you're looking at it wrong. Taking an airplane from Spain to the US would be considerably cheaper than sailing galleons across the ocean. Driving from Ohio to the West Coast is significantly more cost effective than feeding your oxen along the Oregon Trail.

And no one is suggesting spending trillions on a project just to explore space. What you're neglecting to acknowledge is how symbiotic a lot of technology is.

For example, developing computers opened up new worlds for medical technology (along with every other form), we didn't simply discover them through funding medical R&D. Humanity will continue to make technological breakthroughs and apply them to individual fields and a lot of the subsequent breakthroughs will be mutually beneficial to other technical fields and so on.... and one day when deep space travel is feasible, you can bet your ass we'll do it regardless of the planet's current resource situation.

TheReverend
05-06-2010, 03:50 PM
Can you really be this stupid?

Seriously?

I just listed diseases that could end up demonstrating natural selection in the purest sense. When the plague rolled through Europe, it naturally selected (see that little play on words there...there may be something to it) for people with resistant genes. The same thing happens today with the AIDS virus. In developed nations even. Imagine that.

Here's another, though it may be a little to complicated for you. Have you ever heard of sickle cell anemia? Well here's an example of natural selection for you. People with sickle cell are less likely to contract Malaria. Sickle cell is also a genetic defect that shortens lifespan. Malaria has effected human populations so much that it bottlenecked the genes for red blood cell production in populations.

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/5522/scincevolution080103ms.jpg

Upset that you couldn't come up with a single viable example of natural selection in a first world setting?

First world, bright eyes. That doesn't refer to the first world 6th/7th century... :spit:

Also, folic acid, bone marrow transplants, penicillin, etc are ways we currently treat sickle cell IN FIRST WORLD NATIONS, and a whopping 70,000 Americans are estimated to have the sickle cell disease. Wow, natural selection really weeding those traits out!

epicSocialism4tw
05-06-2010, 04:05 PM
First world, bright eyes. That doesn't refer to the first world 6th/7th century... :spit:

Also, folic acid, bone marrow transplants, penicillin, etc are ways we currently treat sickle cell IN FIRST WORLD NATIONS, and a whopping 70,000 Americans are estimated to have the sickle cell disease. Wow, natural selection really weeding those traits out!

Again, you missed the entire point.

The point was not that sickle cell selects against itself, it was that Malaria has selected for sickle cell, a deleterious mutation in a population that exists TODAY. That's natural selection.

You are so far behind on this subject that you may as well just start over at the beginning.

TheReverend
05-06-2010, 04:48 PM
Again, you missed the entire point.

The point was not that sickle cell selects against itself, it was that Malaria has selected for sickle cell, a deleterious mutation in a population that exists TODAY. That's natural selection.

You are so far behind on this subject that you may as well just start over at the beginning.

Oh I understood your point... which is why ONCE AGAIN I made the words "IN FIRST WORLD NATIONS" large and capitalized and bold...

Or am I just unaware of the malaria outbreak of 2006 in Ohio?

You're a fool. The very definition of natural selection is "a natural process that results in the survival and reproductive success of individuals or groups best adjusted to their environment and that leads to the perpetuation of genetic qualities best suited to that particular environment".

Every example you've listed is practically a non-factor in a first world nation like the United States... especially when you consider the vast majority of your examples effect is on the elderly... who are well past any reproductive opportunity.

So retard... suck a dick, and/or get a grip on your own argument.

Paladin
05-06-2010, 04:55 PM
Defend my selection: Yes.

Well, we have Mock, we have Jhns, we have that Atwater feller, we have BBuff and we have a couple of other "outliers". So, yes, I'd say we have been invaded by aliens.

Oh, wait. That's the other thread, right? No matter, I say yes..........

Mr.Meanie
05-06-2010, 04:57 PM
I agree with a good chunk of this, but it's hardly an end-all-be-all statement. And, no, I don't think the motivation would solely be for curiosities sake or pure exploration... but what about in the name of progress? In fact, I think if you peruse the history of notable exploration, you'll find that the majority were progression motivated, though admittedly still a very large chunk were out of necessity/accidental/resource driven.

When the Soviets put the first cosmonaut in space, it wasn't for all the space gold they'd return with.

We don't spend billions on continuously repairing the Hubble telescope for any reason other than scientific progress and a greater understanding of the vast unknown... and that's more than enough for me. Wanting answers and wanting to understand the unknown is an extremely powerful human trait.

I think it's summed up perfectly in the words of Neil Armstrong: "One small step for man, one giant leap for mankind".

Also think about the billions of dollars currently being spent on the Large Hadron Collider project, solely to advance science and hopefully answer questions.

We are both a species of survivalists, and a species dedicated to progressive scientific advancement - many times purely for the sake of advancement.

epicSocialism4tw
05-06-2010, 05:31 PM
Oh I understood your point... which is why ONCE AGAIN I made the words "IN FIRST WORLD NATIONS" large and capitalized and bold...

Or am I just unaware of the malaria outbreak of 2006 in Ohio?

You're a fool. The very definition of natural selection is "a natural process that results in the survival and reproductive success of individuals or groups best adjusted to their environment and that leads to the perpetuation of genetic qualities best suited to that particular environment".

Every example you've listed is practically a non-factor in a first world nation like the United States... especially when you consider the vast majority of your examples effect is on the elderly... who are well past any reproductive opportunity.

So retard... suck a dick, and/or get a grip on your own argument.

Well, its good that you used google to read a definition of natural selection. Now that you at least understand that, maybe we can move forward.

First off, you are assuming that evolution is directional...that things evolve from lower intelligence to higher intelligence, which is a common misunderstanding of evolution.

You can say that our intelligence is obviously an asset, and that it gives us advantages, but to say that it propels the species beyond the scope of natural selection is absurd. Because of the advent of medicine (which is attributable to knowledge), we are currently accumulating drift where selective pressures once evened out genetic diversity in the immune response. This does not "eliminate" natural selection as you like to suggest...it only makes the likelyhood of mass extinction more possible. Ironically, the "third world" are MORE fit to be able to handle the outbreak of infectious disease than Americans are. It has nothing to do with available medicine, and has everything to do with natural selection. Its not "if", but "when" a superbug breaks out in the US, its going to be devastating.

AIDS is only limited by blood-to-blood contact. Smallpox was not.

Your moronic assumption that all disease has been placed firmly under thumb is childish and uneducated.

TheReverend
05-06-2010, 05:40 PM
Well, its good that you used google to read a definition of natural selection. Now that you at least understand that, maybe we can move forward.

Someone has to explain it to you.

First off, you are assuming that evolution is directional...that things evolve from lower intelligence to higher intelligence, which is a common misunderstanding of evolution.

You can say that our intelligence is obviously an asset, and that it gives us advantages, but to say that it propels the species beyond the scope of natural selection is absurd.

I didn't say any of this. Your illiteracy knows no bounds.

Because of the advent of medicine (which is attributable to knowledge), we are currently accumulating drift where selective pressures once evened out genetic diversity in the immune response. This does not "eliminate" natural selection as you like to suggest...it only makes the likelyhood of mass extinction more possible.

Why are we "accumulating drift" then?

Oh and my statement was "damn near eliminated". Not completely.

So I once again must re-direct you to your lack of reading comprehension that's caused you to chase your tail and in statements like the bold above, support MY statement.

Ironically, the "third world" are MORE fit to be able to handle the outbreak of infectious disease than Americans are. It has nothing to do with available medicine, and has everything to do with natural selection. Its not "if", but "when" a superbug breaks out in the US, its going to be devastating.

And WHEN a superbug breaks out in the US, we'll actually have an occurrence of natural selection in the US to talk about. Until then...

AIDS is only limited by blood-to-blood contact. Smallpox was not.

Your moronic assumption that all disease has been placed firmly under thumb is childish and uneducated.

Then why can't you provide me with one solitary decent example?

robbieopperude
05-06-2010, 06:38 PM
Someone has to explain it to you.



I didn't say any of this. Your illiteracy knows no bounds.



Why are we "accumulating drift" then?

Oh and my statement was "damn near eliminated". Not completely.

So I once again must re-direct you to your lack of reading comprehension that's caused you to chase your tail and in statements like the bold above, support MY statement.



And WHEN a superbug breaks out in the US, we'll actually have an occurrence of natural selection in the US to talk about. Until then...



Then why can't you provide me with one solitary decent example?

You guys should start your own Natural Selection thread and let O.Mane vote on the winner. Sheesh!

epicSocialism4tw
05-06-2010, 07:07 PM
And WHEN a superbug breaks out in the US, we'll actually have an occurrence of natural selection in the US to talk about. Until then...

It is inevitable.

epicSocialism4tw
05-06-2010, 07:08 PM
You guys should start your own Natural Selection thread and let O.Mane vote on the winner. Sheesh!

There are only 4 or 5 guys that post regularly on this site that have their bearings in an evolution discussion. The Reverend is not one of them.

Hogan11
05-06-2010, 07:11 PM
Q: Do you believe in aliens?

A: Does Jesus believe in hamburgers?

TheReverend
05-06-2010, 07:51 PM
It is inevitable.

Didn't claim it wasn't. You once again prove your reading level to be grade level "incompetent".

epicSocialism4tw
05-06-2010, 08:06 PM
Didn't claim it wasn't. You once again prove your reading level to be grade level "incompetent".

You have nothing.

You claimed that we had "darn near eliminated" natural selection as it pertains to humans (which you later changed to humans in first world countries).

You are absolutely, positively, 100%, undoubtedly wrong. No if's, and's, or but's about it.

Donnie, you're out of your element.

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kutzpsGF1M1qznpi1o1_500.jpg

TheReverend
05-06-2010, 08:26 PM
I'm done with this. All you've done is misread everything I've said and raise horrid arguments that are actually evidence towards my point. Somehow, I got sucked into the stupidity that is the DramaLlama and let it completely derail an interesting thread, so for that, I whole-heartedly apologize to everyone that was discussing an interesting topic.

You can change your username but this is precisely who you are, and I couldn't say it better myself:

"And the Number 1 Forum Loser for the Summer of 2006: Angry Llama

Why he sucks: Biggest drama king on the Mane. Biggest poser on the Mane. Bizarre compulsion to immerse himself in mindless hype over this week's favorite athlete. Author of spectacular hissy fit meltdowns when his teams inevitably choke. No sense of perspective or slightest inkling of how he's perceived on this board.

Defining moment: Predicting a sweep for the Mavs in The Finals and then disappearing for several days after they inevitably choked.

Good points: His transparent and pretentious affectations, and inability to handle defeat like an adult, make him ripe for parody.

Potential for redemption: I hope he never changes."

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=44403&highlight=angryllama

epicSocialism4tw
05-06-2010, 08:37 PM
I'm done with this. All you've done is misread everything I've said and raise horrid arguments that are actually evidence towards my point. Somehow, I got sucked into the stupidity that is the DramaLlama and let it completely derail an interesting thread, so for that, I whole-heartedly apologize to everyone that was discussing an interesting topic.

You can change your username but this is precisely who you are, and I couldn't say it better myself:

"And the Number 1 Forum Loser for the Summer of 2006: Angry Llama[/B]

Why he sucks: Biggest drama king on the Mane. Biggest poser on the Mane. Bizarre compulsion to immerse himself in mindless hype over this week's favorite athlete. Author of spectacular hissy fit meltdowns when his teams inevitably choke. No sense of perspective or slightest inkling of how he's perceived on this board.

Defining moment: Predicting a sweep for the Mavs in The Finals and then disappearing for several days after they inevitably choked.

Good points: His transparent and pretentious affectations, and inability to handle defeat like an adult[/B], make him ripe for parody.

Potential for redemption: I hope he never changes."

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=44403&highlight=angryllama


Ah, so you admit you know nothing.

Defeat comes easy for you. By your second response you were in panic mode and finished as strong as a fish dying on a beach.

You made one of the stupidest staments anyone has made in this forum. Ever. And you backed it up with a bunch of half-witted conjecture typical of a 12-year old.

Congrats. You lose.
http://www.i-mockery.com/shorts/buzz-bombers/10.gif

TheReverend
05-06-2010, 09:23 PM
Ah, so you admit you know nothing.

Defeat comes easy for you. By your second response you were in panic mode and finished as strong as a fish dying on a beach.

You made one of the stupidest staments anyone has made in this forum. Ever. And you backed it up with a bunch of half-witted conjecture typical of a 12-year old.

Congrats. You lose.
http://www.i-mockery.com/shorts/buzz-bombers/10.gif

Clearly I know so little that one of the most decorated geneticists shares the same thought. Here's J Steve Jones, professor of genetics, head of the department, president of the Galton institute, etc.

I suggest you pick up his book, "Genetics for beginners" so you can gain an understanding in what you're talking about.

Anyhow, here's part of his lecture that he gives at universities filled with "know nothings" like me... UCL and Harvard for two examples. You should e-mail him and explain to him this is one of the "stupidest staments" (really flexing that educated muscle there) and that it's 12 year old level conjecture. I'm sure he'd love for you to explain to him how this really works.

From the lecture, "Human evolution is over"

Human evolution has virtually come to a halt, according to Professor Steve Jones of UCL (University College London). Speaking today at a UCL Lunch Hour Lecture in London, Professor Jones argues that human evolution has reached the end of the line and we have arrived at utopia – or as close to it as we are likely to get.

“We now know so much about the process of evolution that we can make some predictions about what might happen in future,” says Professor Jones of the UCL Department of Genetics, Evolution and Environment. “To many people the future looks dystopian, doomed – an idea that goes back centuries. In modern terms, there is a fear of decay.”

“In ancient times half our children would have died by the age of twenty. Now, in the Western world, 98 per cent of them are surviving to the age of 21. Our life expectancy is now so good that eliminating all accidents and infectious diseases would only raise it by a further two years. Natural selection no longer has death as a handy tool.

“Mutation, too, is slowing down. Yes, there are chemicals and radioactive pollution – but one of the most important mutagens is old men. For a 29-year old father (the mean age of reproduction in the West) there are around 300 divisions between the sperm that made him and the one he passes on – each one with an opportunity to make mistakes. For a 50-year old father, the figure is well over a thousand. A drop in the number of older fathers will thus have a major effect on the rate of mutation. Perhaps surprisingly, the age of reproduction has gone down – the mean age of male reproduction means that most conceive no children after the age of 35. Fewer older fathers means that if anything, mutation is going down.

“Randomness is the third, often forgotten, important ingredient in evolution. Humans are 10,000 times more common than we should be, according to the rules of the animal kingdom, and we have agriculture to thank for that. Without farming, the world population would probably have reached half a million by now – about the size of the population of Glasgow. Small populations which are isolated can change – evolve – at random as genes are accidentally lost. Worldwide, all populations are becoming connected and the opportunity for random change is dwindling. History is made in bed, but nowadays the beds are getting closer together. Almost everywhere, inbreeding is becoming less common. In Britain, one marriage in fifty or so is between members of a different ethnic group, and the country is one of the most sexually open in the world. We are mixing into a global mass, and the future is brown.

“So, if you are worried about what utopia is going to be like, don’t; at least in the developed world, and at least for the time being, you are living in it now.”

robbieopperude
05-06-2010, 10:59 PM
Back on topic please. Here is one for you. If Aliens do exist do you think they help or hurt are evolution by tampering with us?

Ugly Duck
05-06-2010, 11:50 PM
Ahh, I see you are a man of science. How do you tell the difference between a witch and a duck?

Witches follow Satan and have hair. Ducks have feathers and just swim around and crap gooey stuff.

watermock
05-07-2010, 12:29 AM
yeah, yeah REV.

I'm sure your good at being an alpha male.

That doean't mean your not stupid as a shark.


As far as "evoltiom is over"

I would agree for several factors.

Mutration has nothing to to do with evolution/ It's adaptation.


The last comments were assretive and ignorant.


The conclusion there will be a mass depletion of humans is a no brainer. no brainer.

watermock
05-07-2010, 12:32 AM
Back on topic please. Here is one for you. If Aliens do exist do you think they help or hurt are evolution by tampering with us?


IMO, given their non-confrintational behavior, I would say they are friendly or allrady own our planet.

watermock
05-07-2010, 12:39 AM
http://www.crowdedskies.com/dulce_papers.htm.

bowtown
05-07-2010, 07:59 AM
And suddenly I'm reconsidering the theory of devolution.