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Archer81
04-27-2010, 05:06 PM
John Moore Arizona's new anti-illegal immigration law is sparking outrage across the country and now, San Francisco's city attorney is urging policymakers and businesses to take a stand against the controversial legislation and send the state a message.

San Francisco City Attorney Dennis Herrera on Monday called for a sweeping boycott of the state of Arizona and Arizona-based businesses.

Herrera, himself the son an immigrant from Latin America, called the law "draconian" and released the following statement upon announcing the push for a boycott:


Just as it did two decades ago when it refused to observe Martin Luther King Jr. Day, Arizona has again chosen to isolate itself from the rest of the nation. Our most appropriate response is to assure that their isolation is tangible rather than merely symbolic. San Francisco should lead the way in adopting and aggressively pursuing a sweeping boycott of Arizona and Arizona-based businesses until this unjust law is repealed or invalidated. My office is fully committed to work with San Francisco city departments and commissions to identify all applicable contracts, and to pursue termination wherever possible. And my office stands ready to assist in any legal challenges in whatever way it can.

Herrera's comments come the same day San Francisco Supervisor David Campos led a protest at City Hall against the controversial new immigration law.

"I think as a city we have a responsibility to make sure we don't do business with entities like the state of Arizona that are taking steps that are essentially violating and call for violation of the basic rights of the constitution." Campos said.

Campos agrees with civil rights advocates who say the law will lead to racial profiling. He is planning to introduce a resolution Tuesday that that essentially condemns the actions of the state of Arizona and calls for a boycott of the state.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/politics/SF-Supe-Calls-for-Arizona-Boycott-92095669.html

:Broncos:

SonOfLe-loLang
04-27-2010, 05:07 PM
Good. That law is insane.

Archer81
04-27-2010, 05:09 PM
Good. That law is insane.


Sections of it actually mirror federal law.


:Broncos:

SonOfLe-loLang
04-27-2010, 05:15 PM
Sections of it actually mirror federal law.


:Broncos:

It gives authority to pull someone over for doing nothing at all (other than being mexican). You want to live in a police state?

That One Guy
04-27-2010, 05:17 PM
I haven't been tracking so well lately, what's the new law?

Archer81
04-27-2010, 05:19 PM
It gives authority to pull someone over for doing nothing at all (other than being mexican). You want to live in a police state?


No. But if our esteemed Federal Government does not actually do something about illegals, we may all want to learn spanish.


:Broncos:

Tombstone RJ
04-27-2010, 05:19 PM
Not sure why people are so up in arms about this law. Why not let Arizona be Arizona and see how the law effects all immigrants.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong. What I am saying is there is more than one answer to the illegal immigration problem.

I love the Latino communities because they are for the most part grounded in the things I value myself: Family, community, hard work.

That being said, there's some real issues that need to be resolved with all the illegals.

Here's my solution, and it's way more radicalzzzzz:

Grant all illegals citizenship that are here to work (accept for the bad guys who commit crimes). Just do it. Make them tax paying citizens, now!

Once this is done, try really, really hard to monitor the traffic between Mexico and the US and try to prohibit future illegals from crossing the line. That is, really enforce the border and don't let people just cross over in the night.

IMHO this will do two things: Give illegals immunity and citizenship sans criminal behavior and set the foundation for future enforcement of stopping the illegals from crossing the border.

It's a good faith gesture on the US's part, and I new policy moving forward.

Irish Stout
04-27-2010, 05:25 PM
I haven't been tracking so well lately, what's the new law?

Basically breaks down to give police the authority to stop anyone walking down the street who appears to be an illegal immigrant and demand to see their identification AND documentation allowing them to be in the country and state. If they cannot prove that they are legally in the state they will be arrested, and a simple driver's license is not sufficient.

That One Guy
04-27-2010, 05:25 PM
Not sure why people are so up in arms about this law. Why not let Arizona be Arizona and see how the law effects all immigrants.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong. What I am saying is there is more than one answer to the illegal immigration problem.

I love the Latino communities because they are for the most part grounded in the things I value myself: Family, community, hard work.

That being said, there's some real issues that need to be resolved with all the illegals.

Here's my solution, and it's way more radicalzzzzz:

Grant all illegals citizenship that are here to work (accept for the bad guys who commit crimes). Just do it. Make them tax paying citizens, now!

Once this is done, try really, really hard to monitor the traffic between Mexico and the US and try to prohibit future illegals from crossing the line. That is, really enforce the border and don't let people just cross over in the night.

IMHO this will do two things: Give illegals immunity and citizenship sans criminal behavior and set the foundation for future enforcement of stopping the illegals from crossing the border.

It's a good faith gesture on the US's part, and I new policy moving forward.

I'm fairly anti-illegal but I'd accept this on one condition. Make it be known that ANY criminal activity (we're not talking speeding tickets though) results in deportation. Among those activities that would be punishable? Harboring an illegal. If a kid gets into trouble, the whole family can leave or the kid goes by himself. Clean up the mess and we'll talk. Just completely forgive and forget? No thanks.

UberBroncoMan
04-27-2010, 05:28 PM
If you're not an illegal you shouldn't have a problem with being pulled over. If anything you should be glad something is being done to stop it. If you want to live in this country do it legally or get the **** out.

Illegals tend to live in poor areas, poor areas tend to breed crime, etc. I know someone who's an illegal and he and his bro started out selling drugs on the street around 5th grade after their mom brought them across the border in their infancy. Luckily he's turned his life around on his own, but others didn't.

Illegals largely get away from the IRS, and leach off of tax dollars as well.

I can respect wanting to get work or wanting to get out of the corrupt **** hole that is Mexico, but go about doing it the right way.

As big of a problem as the USA is for not preventing illegal immigration, Mexico is just as big an issue due to being such a **** hole of a country. Mexico needs a revolution or something major to go down.

BTW... I'm 1/2 Mexican and my Hispanic relatives were 100% legal.

enjolras
04-27-2010, 05:29 PM
Not sure why people are so up in arms about this law. Why not let Arizona be Arizona and see how the law effects all immigrants.

For the same reason I'm absolutely repulsed when someone threatens violence for drawing pictures of Mohammed. Because the whole idea of the law is completely counter to everything that we (as Americans) are supposed to stand for.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-27-2010, 05:29 PM
No. But if our esteemed Federal Government does not actually do something about illegals, we may all want to learn spanish.


:Broncos:

While I agree immigration needs to be reformed, picking people off the street is hardly an answer, not to mention its a violation to the many legal immigrants or American born mexicans that currently live in AZ. As far as policy is concerned (beyond a moral issue) its like busting drug dealers one by one during sales. It does nothing. Its crappy legislation and morally deplorable. Why the "tea party" cult isn't all over this is also hyporcritical...but oh yeah, they dont care for the brown people much.

enjolras
04-27-2010, 05:30 PM
If you're not an illegal you shouldn't have a problem with being pulled over. If anything you should be glad something is being done to stop it. If you want to live in this country do it legally or get the **** out.


http://www.azfamily.com/news/91769419.html

That's why you should have a huge problem with this.

Why should you be harassed just because you want to go out at night? Or to buy some milk? Or just because you're in America, and dammit you feel like being outside right now?

No one should be subjected to the humiliation and bullying that comes along with this sort of profiling.

Americans, above all, should be absolutely floored that this is even considered to be OK in our country. If you really think random searches and arrests are 'OK', then (and I mean this with all due respect) maybe it's time for you to look for a new place to live? North Korea might be your speed...

SonOfLe-loLang
04-27-2010, 05:30 PM
If you're not an illegal you shouldn't have a problem with being pulled over. If anything you should be glad something is being done to stop it. If you want to live in this country do it legally or get the **** out.

Illegals tend to live in poor areas, poor areas tend to breed crime, etc. I know someone who's an illegal and he and his bro started out selling drugs on the street around 5th grade after their mom brought them across the border in their infancy. Luckily he's turned his life around on his own, but others didn't.

Illegals largely get away from the IRS, and leach off of tax dollars as well.

I can respect wanting to get work or wanting to get out of the corrupt **** hole that is Mexico, but go about doing it the right way.

As big of a problem as the USA is for not preventing illegal immigration, Mexico is just as big an issue due to being such a **** hole of a country. Mexico needs a revolution or something major to go down.

Wow...yeah, i love getting pulled over. ITS MY FAVORITE THING EVA!

UberBroncoMan
04-27-2010, 05:33 PM
http://www.azfamily.com/news/91769419.html

That's why.

He can **** himself. Sick of all the racist cry bull**** that goes on in this country. I'm sick of humanity being so god damned divisive (and no that does not mean I want us to merge with Canada and Mexico). Humanity joining together won't happen in our lifetime if ever.

UberBroncoMan
04-27-2010, 05:33 PM
Wow...yeah, i love getting pulled over. ITS MY FAVORITE THING EVA!

Yeah it sucks if it happens. Sucks sitting around. But if it cleans up the streets and it's not hurting you, I don't see a big problem.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-27-2010, 05:34 PM
He can **** himself. Sick of all the racist cry bull**** that goes on in this country. I'm sick of humanity being so god damned divisive (and no that does not mean I want us to merge with Canada and Mexico). Humanity joining together won't happen in our lifetime if ever.

OK, so lets just be unpleasant assholes at every turn!

UberBroncoMan
04-27-2010, 05:35 PM
http://www.azfamily.com/news/91769419.html

That's why you should have a huge problem with this.

Why should you be harassed just because you want to go out at night? Or to buy some milk? Or just because you're in America, and dammit you feel like being outside right now?

No one should be subjected to the humiliation and bullying that comes along with this sort of profiling.

Americans, above all, should be absolutely floored that this is even considered to be OK in our country. If you really think random searches and arrests are 'OK', then (and I mean this with all due respect) maybe it's time for you to look for a new place to live? North Korea might be your speed...

ROFL. Funny stuff. No where did I say I think random arrests were ok. I said random ID checks to see if you're an illegal is ok.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-27-2010, 05:35 PM
Yeah it sucks if it happens. Sucks sitting around. But if it cleans up the streets and it's not hurting you, I don't see a big problem.

Its hurting an enormous part of the AZ population, not to mention, it wont ****ing work. We dont live in a police state, you cant just pull people over for no cause other than their skin color. Its ****ing absurd.

Might as well just round up and kill the homeless too...after all, it'll clean up the streets

enjolras
04-27-2010, 05:35 PM
He can **** himself. Sick of all the racist cry bull**** that goes on in this country. I'm sick of humanity being so god damned divisive (and no that does not mean I want us to merge with Canada and Mexico). Humanity joining together won't happen in our lifetime if ever.

Your sick of 'humanity being so god damned divisive' and yet you want to segregate and divide one whole section of our people off and make them subject to police harassment when they've done absolutely nothing wrong?

Am I following you here?

Archer81
04-27-2010, 05:35 PM
While I agree immigration needs to be reformed, picking people off the street is hardly an answer, not to mention its a violation to the many legal immigrants or American born mexicans that currently live in AZ. As far as policy is concerned (beyond a moral issue) its like busting drug dealers one by one during sales. It does nothing. Its crappy legislation and morally deplorable. Why the "tea party" cult isn't all over this is also hyporcritical...but oh yeah, they dont care for the brown people much.


A few things.

Are they Mexicans or Americans? They cannot be both. Pick one.

The legislation in my opinion was designed to force a reaction. American citizens are being butchered in American cities by illegals. The most public case recently was the cattle rancher who was murdered on his own property. The Teaparty is not relevant to the discussion. Not sure why you added them in, and blatantly wrong.

:Broncos:

UberBroncoMan
04-27-2010, 05:35 PM
OK, so lets just be unpleasant a-holes at every turn!

The world isn't and will never be a bunch of happy unicorns, fluffy bunnies, and huggles. The law is the law. Every country has it. There are reasons for immigration laws. Being nice and wuvtastic for the fraction who do enter illegally and happy to make a positive impact isn't a reason to let laws slide.

Tombstone RJ
04-27-2010, 05:36 PM
For the same reason I'm absolutely repulsed when someone threatens violence for drawing pictures of Mohammed. Because the whole idea of the law is completely counter to everything that we (as Americans) are supposed to stand for.

I understand, but what I'm saying is that Arizona obviously has issues with illegal aliens. Whatever the border states are doing is not working (AZ, CA, TX, NM).

I have sympathy for the illegals who are here to geniuenly better themselves and their families lives. That's the American dream in a nutshell. That being said, if you are an illegal than you don't have the same constitutional rights as a legal citizen. Hence, I'm sorry, constitutional rights do not belong to you.

I know there is a huge number of illegals in the US and that is why so many people have a problem with this new policy in AZ. It's going to flush out a lot more illegals.

enjolras
04-27-2010, 05:36 PM
ROFL. Funny stuff. No where did I say I think random arrests were ok. I said random ID checks to see if you're an illegal is ok.

Followed by arrests for simply not carrying the right papers with you (see the damn story I linked). Again, these people are subject to arrest for doing absolutely nothing wrong.

tesnyde
04-27-2010, 05:36 PM
It gives authority to pull someone over for doing nothing at all (other than being mexican). You want to live in a police state?

You obviously haven't read it. It says if someone is stopped for some other violation, and then with probable cause, an officer can proceed with enforcement of this new law. It is not a primary offence, but a secondary offence. It is like to how in Colorado it was the law that seat belts had to be worn but you couldn't be ticketed for it unless you had been stopped initially for a different violation. The legislature was looking into making it primary violation and might have done so. By the way, in Mexico you can be stopped for anything. Same was true when I lived in Colombia, Indonesia, and Venezuela. I often had to show my resident visa. I lived by their laws and could care less that I stuck out with my red hair and pasty skin. BFD...it was their law and I choose to be there, so I accepted it. Done, I showed it, and then went on my way. Big whoop.

UberBroncoMan
04-27-2010, 05:37 PM
Followed by arrests for simply not carrying the right papers with you (see the damn story I linked). Again, these people are subject to arrest for doing absolutely nothing wrong.

Well then I'm not ok with that, unless the person can't speak a lick of English (regardless where they're from). Maybe we should start making people carry their social security # around. Pretty easy to check up on that and validate.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-27-2010, 05:38 PM
A few things.

Are they Mexicans or Americans? They cannot be both. Pick one.

The legislation in my opinion was designed to force a reaction. American citizens are being butchered in American cities by illegals. The most public case recently was the cattle rancher who was murdered on his own property. The Teaparty is not relevant to the discussion. Not sure why you added them in, and blatantly wrong.

:Broncos:

Wait a second, so now you cant be a mexican american? What if you were born in mexico and are here legally? What if you were born here with mexican ancestry?

It wasnt designed to force a reaction? its designed to protect white america from the eventual minority take over of that state. Its ****ing deplorable. This isnt a left/right issue. This is a human rights issue. Im with you on immigration reform, but not only will this not work, its just flat disgusting. Tea party are about anti government intervention, thats why. But i think they are just a bunch of angry people who like to bitch, but thats anothetr discussion which would be off point

enjolras
04-27-2010, 05:39 PM
I understand, but what I'm saying is that Arizona obviously has issues with illegal aliens. Whatever the border states are doing is not working (AZ, CA, TX, NM).

I have sympathy for the illegals who are here to geniuenly better themselves and their families lives. That's the American dream in a nutshell. That being said, if you are an illegal than you don't have the same constitutional rights as a legal citizen. Hence, I'm sorry, constitutional rights do not belong to you.

I know there is a huge number of illegals in the US and that is why so many people have a problem with this new policy in AZ. It's going to flush out a lot more illegals.

But that's the issue. Actual citizens are subject to daily harassment simply because they fit the racial profile of an illegal immigrant. This isn't about how illegal immigrants should be treated, it's about subjecting U.S. citizens to harassment and possible arrest for simply having the wrong color of skin.

The article I linked up there has a concrete example. A U.S. citizen is pulled over, but the police required his birth certificate. He was pulled out of his truck, arrested and only released once his wife showed up with his birth certificate.

How in the world is that ok?

epicSocialism4tw
04-27-2010, 05:39 PM
http://www.azfamily.com/news/91769419.html

That's why you should have a huge problem with this.

Why should you be harassed just because you want to go out at night? Or to buy some milk? Or just because you're in America, and dammit you feel like being outside right now?

No one should be subjected to the humiliation and bullying that comes along with this sort of profiling.

Americans, above all, should be absolutely floored that this is even considered to be OK in our country. If you really think random searches and arrests are 'OK', then (and I mean this with all due respect) maybe it's time for you to look for a new place to live? North Korea might be your speed...


What about families of people (immigrants of all skin colors) who live along the border who cant go outside at night because of the dangerous illegals that stream through their communities with no respect for property, life, or law?

Something has to be done.

You cant just let injustice continue like that for our citizens. They have rights under our constitution.

Irish Stout
04-27-2010, 05:40 PM
We never would have let the Indians pull this **** on us.

That being said, the immigration system is stuck in a rut... people want in, we don't let them in very easily through proper channels, so they sneak in. Once they sneak in they try very hard to stay off the radar, which does have an effect on our system. A new system allowing people a 5 year work visa, easy to get, would be great, we could hit them with Social Security and Medicare and taxes and they'd not be able to collect on those.

A lot of the illegals who are here do currently pay taxes, unless the employer is also cheating the system... which is what I think is really terrible.

521 1N5
04-27-2010, 05:40 PM
If you're not an illegal you shouldn't have a problem with being pulled over. If anything you should be glad something is being done to stop it. If you want to live in this country do it legally or get the **** out.


Damn straight.

Archer81
04-27-2010, 05:40 PM
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

Text of the 17 page law.

:Broncos:

epicSocialism4tw
04-27-2010, 05:41 PM
But that's the issue. Actual citizens are subject to daily harassment simply because they fit the racial profile of an illegal immigrant. This isn't about how illegal immigrants should be treated, it's about subjecting U.S. citizens to harassment and possible arrest for simply having the wrong color of skin.

The article I linked up there has a concrete example. A U.S. citizen is pulled over, but the police required his birth certificate. He was pulled out of his truck, arrested and only released once his wife showed up with his birth certificate.

How in the world is that ok?

Nobody believes that thats okay.

Its important to understand the real issues instead of getting swept up in the rhetoric that the racemen want to catch you up in.

GoBroncos84
04-27-2010, 05:41 PM
It's BS legislation. They are trying to legalize their racism and make it institutional. How many of us carry a passport and original copy of our birth certificate wherever we go? We don't, nor should we have to. Its profiling, and its fascism. Reminiscent of the Germans checking papers. Have we learned nothing from history? Apartheid in South Africa, German soldiers checking papers during the holocaust and WW2. Fortunately this legislation will ultimately be shot down, its a violation of the 4th amendment.

This is the opposite of what our country is about. This isn't freedom, its empowering a police state mentality. What side of the immigration debate you are on isn't relevant for this discussion, because either way this is not the way to go about it. It's criminal, it's unconstitutional, it's racist, and its a blatant civil rights violation

enjolras
04-27-2010, 05:43 PM
What about families of people (immigrants of all skin colors) who live along the border who cant go outside at night because of the dangerous illegals that stream through their communities with no respect for property, life, or law?

Something has to be done.

You cant just let injustice continue like that for our citizens. They have rights under our constitution.

Enforce border laws. Stiffer penalties for illegal immigrants. Sanctions on Mexico for not policing their borders. We have to be able to do this in such a way that we don't sacrifice our very idealism on the alter of temporary security.

Why is it, in the 'new' America that every time we are faced with a problem we simply roll up into a ball and surrender our ideals (here's looking at you Patriot Act)?

We can be a free society, or we can be a terrified one that surrenders control to government authority. I choose the first.

UberBroncoMan
04-27-2010, 05:43 PM
Wait a second, so now you cant be a mexican american? What if you were born in mexico and are here legally? What if you were born here with mexican ancestry?

It wasnt designed to force a reaction? its designed to protect white america from the eventual minority take over of that state. Its ****ing deplorable. This isnt a left/right issue. This is a human rights issue. Im with you on immigration reform, but not only will this not work, its just flat disgusting. Tea party are about anti government intervention, thats why. But i think they are just a bunch of angry people who like to b****, but thats anothetr discussion which would be off point

Oh come on. This just shows that you're all about hating on the "white man" with this paranoia. White America is DEAD and is only going to be more dead in the coming years. Nothing can stop that. "Minority" populations have the most kids, and keep pouring in. Eventual takeover of Arizona? I'd be shocked if it's not already in the majority.

Archer81
04-27-2010, 05:43 PM
It's BS legislation. They are trying to legalize their racism and make it institutional. How many of us carry a passport and original copy of our birth certificate wherever we go? We don't, nor should we have to. Its profiling, and its fascism. Reminiscent of the Germans checking papers. Have we learned nothing from history? Apartheid in South Africa, German soldiers checking papers during the holocaust and WW2. Fortunately this legislation will ultimately be shot down, its a violation of the 4th amendment.

This is the opposite of what our country is about. This isn't freedom, its empowering a police state mentality. What side of the immigration debate you are on isn't relevant for this discussion, because either way this is not the way to go about it. It's criminal, it's unconstitutional, it's racist, and its a blatant civil rights violation


Federal law makes it a requirement that legal, documented workers carry their greencards. The Arizona law does not require anything more than Federal law does. The only people who would be worried about carrying paperwork (that they are supposed to have anyway) is illegals...

:Broncos:

Rohirrim
04-27-2010, 05:45 PM
Last I heard, it costs the state of California $10.5 billion to provide for the population of illegal immigrants who live there. So, the taxpayers should do nothing? The federal government refuses to deal with the issue. Remember the marches a few years ago? Remember when 80% of Americans demanded that our borders be secured? You know what the government has done about it? Absolutely squat.

The hysterical, polarizing media in America want to make this a race issue. It's not. It's entirely economic. Is Arizona acting because they are a racist state, or because they are driven to desperation by the a totally failed lack of federal will?

Here's another take, I mean other than hysteric:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/clarence-b-jones/somebody-close-the-door-r_b_553937.html

Well-intentioned people are quick to denounce Arizona and call for a boycott of business transactions or travel involving the state. Why are they not calling for a boycott of Mexico? The truth is that Mexico is exporting, or at the very least facilitating the export, of its poverty in the form of illegal immigrants to the United States.

epicSocialism4tw
04-27-2010, 05:45 PM
San Francisco wants to boycott Arizona?

What exactly does that mean? The wannabe hippies on the Haight dont buy adobe bongs? The Castro district bans adobe?

Maybe San Francisco can send all of the illegals to populate Mare Island or maybe provide them safe harbor in the Presidio.

What a bunch of self-important douchebags.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-27-2010, 05:46 PM
Federal law makes it a requirement that legal, documented workers carry their greencards. The Arizona law does not require anything more than Federal law does. The only people who would be worried about carrying paperwork (that they are supposed to have anyway) is illegals...

:Broncos:

That's not the point. If youre illegal, then youre illegal and reform needs to be done on this point. But there are tons of completely legal residents that will no doubt be harrassed from this law

Tombstone RJ
04-27-2010, 05:46 PM
But that's the issue. Actual citizens are subject to daily harassment simply because they fit the racial profile of an illegal immigrant. This isn't about how illegal immigrants should be treated, it's about subjecting U.S. citizens to harassment and possible arrest for simply having the wrong color of skin.

The article I linked up there has a concrete example. A U.S. citizen is pulled over, but the police required his birth certificate. He was pulled out of his truck, arrested and only released once his wife showed up with his birth certificate.

How in the world is that ok?

I agree, it's a very difficult situation to handle. I value personal freedom (and state's freedoms) more than anything else and it sucks that we can't seem to get a grip on the situation.

Again, the US Fed Gov. is incompitent at the highest level. Why is this even an issue!?!

You really want to stop illegal immigration? Here's an idea--force countries like Mexico to provide free education for the poor!

Seriously, it's a joke.

GoBroncos84
04-27-2010, 05:46 PM
Federal law makes it a requirement that legal, documented workers carry their greencards. The Arizona law does not require anything more than Federal law does. The only people who would be worried about carrying paperwork (that they are supposed to have anyway) is illegals...

:Broncos:

U.S. citizens with dark skin? How often will they be harassed and asked to provide their paperwork?

enjolras
04-27-2010, 05:48 PM
Federal law makes it a requirement that legal, documented workers carry their greencards. The Arizona law does not require anything more than Federal law does. The only people who would be worried about carrying paperwork (that they are supposed to have anyway) is illegals...

:Broncos:

It only requires non-citizens to carry green-cards. For about the fiftieth time: this law gives police the right to interrogate and arrest completely legal U.S. citizens until they prove their citizenship (and in at least one case a drivers license is not enough).

Previously it was only possible to compel this sort of search during the investigation of another crime or misdemeanor. Now a police officer can walk up to (again, a valid citizen) and demand proof of citizenship. This is unprecedented as far as I know. I hate to bring Nazi's into this (Godwin!), but it is quite literally the same tactic used to control occupied Europe in WWII.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-27-2010, 05:48 PM
Plus, its just short term ****ty policy. I have a feeling it wont last.

UberBroncoMan
04-27-2010, 05:48 PM
Last I heard, it costs the state of California $10.5 billion to provide for the population of illegal immigrants who live there. So, the taxpayers should do nothing? The federal government refuses to deal with the issue. Remember the marches a few years ago? Remember when 80% of Americans demanded that our borders be secured? You know what the government has done about it? Absolutely squat.

The hysterical, polarizing media in America want to make this a race issue. It's not. It's entirely economic. Is Arizona acting because they are a racist state, or because they are driven to desperation by the a totally failed lack of federal will?

Here's another take, I mean other than hysteric:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/clarence-b-jones/somebody-close-the-door-r_b_553937.html

Arizona has been forced to do this. As a State they can't afford to combat the issue without... dare I say it... FEDERAL HELP.

This **** should have been fixed YEARS ago. But Washington has just sat on their asses and let it accumulate.

Tombstone RJ
04-27-2010, 05:48 PM
It's BS legislation. They are trying to legalize their racism and make it institutional. How many of us carry a passport and original copy of our birth certificate wherever we go? We don't, nor should we have to. Its profiling, and its fascism. Reminiscent of the Germans checking papers. Have we learned nothing from history? Apartheid in South Africa, German soldiers checking papers during the holocaust and WW2. Fortunately this legislation will ultimately be shot down, its a violation of the 4th amendment.

This is the opposite of what our country is about. This isn't freedom, its empowering a police state mentality. What side of the immigration debate you are on isn't relevant for this discussion, because either way this is not the way to go about it. It's criminal, it's unconstitutional, it's racist, and its a blatant civil rights violation

Well, if your traveling outside of your own country, then you pretty much have to carry a passport, right? Yah, right...

Archer81
04-27-2010, 05:49 PM
That's not the point. If youre illegal, then youre illegal and reform needs to be done on this point. But there are tons of completely legal residents that will no doubt be harrassed from this law


That is the point. Who is crying the loudest about this bill? Illegal immigrant support groups. Arizona copying Federal codes on illegals and making it state law is not radical...unless you consider federal law radical.


:Broncos:

Archer81
04-27-2010, 05:49 PM
It only requires non-citizens to carry green-cards. For about the fiftieth time: this law gives police the right to interrogate and arrest completely legal U.S. citizens until they prove their citizenship (and in at least one case a drivers license is not enough).

Previously it was only possible to compel this sort of search during the investigation of another crime or misdemeanor. Now a police officer can walk up to (again, a valid citizen) and demand proof of citizenship. This is unprecedented as far as I know. I hate to bring Nazi's into this (Godwin!), but it is quite literally the same tactic used to control occupied Europe in WWII.


Have you read the law?

:Broncos:

enjolras
04-27-2010, 05:50 PM
Well, if your traveling outside of your own country, then you pretty much have to carry a passport, right? Yah, right...

Whens the last time you carried a passport to go to King Soopers?

Tombstone RJ
04-27-2010, 05:51 PM
It only requires non-citizens to carry green-cards. For about the fiftieth time: this law gives police the right to interrogate and arrest completely legal U.S. citizens until they prove their citizenship (and in at least one case a drivers license is not enough).

Previously it was only possible to compel this sort of search during the investigation of another crime or misdemeanor. Now a police officer can walk up to (again, a valid citizen) and demand proof of citizenship. This is unprecedented as far as I know. I hate to bring Nazi's into this (Godwin!), but it is quite literally the same tactic used to control occupied Europe in WWII.

Common Sense says that the reason the AZ legislature feels this is necessary is because the legal immigrants shelter the illegal immigrants.

It's a mess dude. A real craptastic sandwich.

GoBroncos84
04-27-2010, 05:52 PM
The hysterical, polarizing media in America want to make this a race issue. It's not. It's entirely economic. Is Arizona acting because they are a racist state, or because they are driven to desperation by the a totally failed lack of federal will?


So Arizona officers are going to be pulling over white people, because they could be Canadian or Scandinavian or British? They could be here illegally just as Mexicans could be. But I guarantee the vast majority of people impacted will have brown skin. So yeah, it is about race. The state could suggest that every now and then the officers pull over a non-Hispanic person so the numbers don't look so bad, which could result in perfectly legal U.S. citizens also getting jailed because they aren't carrying their documentation with them at the time. Sure, someone can bring the documentation and get them out. But they still shouldn't have to endure that. No one should have to.

epicSocialism4tw
04-27-2010, 05:52 PM
Enforce border laws. Stiffer penalties for illegal immigrants. Sanctions on Mexico for not policing their borders. We have to be able to do this in such a way that we don't sacrifice our very idealism on the alter of temporary security.

Why is it, in the 'new' America that every time we are faced with a problem we simply roll up into a ball and surrender our ideals (here's looking at you Patriot Act)?

We can be a free society, or we can be a terrified one that surrenders control to government authority. I choose the first.

You really have to live in a border state to understand the absolute gravity of the illegal immigration situation. Its out of control. My state has three highways from hell running into our southern communities. Juarez, Nuevo Laredo, and Matamoros all pump violent criminals into Texas daily. People commit crimes over here, escape to Mexico, and then come back. Its a real problem that is causing all kinds of injustice here for Americans. Juarez is literally a war zone.

Let Mexico take care of their people. If they cant, let them become citizens of the US the right way...the way that ascribes rights to them under the constitution.

I think that the profiling concern is a red herring anyway. I have been profiled and pulled over several times when I was a young white guy with a beard alone in a car on a highway heading south toward Mexico. Everyone is profiled all the time. Police will notice you because of the car you drive, the clothes you wear, your age, the time youre out driving, which part of town you are in, etc. Profiling is what they do. If you are in a part of town inhabited by a disproportionate amount of illegal immigrants (everyone who lives in border states has these areas in just about every town), then you probably have cause to ask about residency status.

Tombstone RJ
04-27-2010, 05:53 PM
Whens the last time you carried a passport to go to King Soopers?

If I was in Mexico, I'd have my passport, because I'm a US citizen. Listen, I know what your saying, the law forces legals to carry IDs and it's racial profiling.

It's an extremely difficult situation for everyone involved.

GoBroncos84
04-27-2010, 05:53 PM
Well, if your traveling outside of your own country, then you pretty much have to carry a passport, right? Yah, right...

I'm talking about citizens of this country

enjolras
04-27-2010, 05:53 PM
Have you read the law?

:Broncos:

Yep.

I should note that there are sections of the law that I think are fantastic (particularly the bit that convicted criminals of illegal immigration status are transferred to immigration after serving a sentence, as opposed to simply being released).

Jason7730
04-27-2010, 05:53 PM
Last I heard, it costs the state of California $10.5 billion to provide for the population of illegal immigrants who live there. So, the taxpayers should do nothing? The federal government refuses to deal with the issue. Remember the marches a few years ago? Remember when 80% of Americans demanded that our borders be secured? You know what the government has done about it? Absolutely squat.

The hysterical, polarizing media in America want to make this a race issue. It's not. It's entirely economic. Is Arizona acting because they are a racist state, or because they are driven to desperation by the a totally failed lack of federal will?

Here's another take, I mean other than hysteric:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/clarence-b-jones/somebody-close-the-door-r_b_553937.html

Well-intentioned people are quick to denounce Arizona and call for a boycott of business transactions or travel involving the state. Why are they not calling for a boycott of Mexico? The truth is that Mexico is exporting, or at the very least facilitating the export, of its poverty in the form of illegal immigrants to the United States.

This:thumbs:

bpc
04-27-2010, 05:55 PM
You obviously haven't read it. It says if someone is stopped for some other violation, and then with probable cause, an officer can proceed with enforcement of this new law. It is not a primary offence, but a secondary offence. It is like to how in Colorado it was the law that seat belts had to be worn but you couldn't be ticketed for it unless you had been stopped initially for a different violation. The legislature was looking into making it primary violation and might have done so. By the way, in Mexico you can be stopped for anything. Same was true when I lived in Colombia, Indonesia, and Venezuela. I often had to show my resident visa. I lived by their laws and could care less that I stuck out with my red hair and pasty skin. BFD...it was their law and I choose to be there, so I accepted it. Done, I showed it, and then went on my way. Big whoop.

I grew up in a military family and MP's on base normally stopped people to check their military ID's. I didn't think anything about it and was stopped regularly being a kid. We knew the rules and abided by them.

The problem with this country is that there is a portion that inherently hates America, although they are too cowardly to come out and say it. Standing against a law created to protect the citizens of this country is absolutely stupid. But that's the ideology of these types... cry, bitch and moan any time we try to enforce laws that have been enacted to protect US citizens.

ZONA
04-27-2010, 05:56 PM
Screw Dennis Herrera. That idiot doesn't realize that there are millions of people who work and live in this state and many many of them may not agree with this law. But to suggest that other states should cease to do business here only hurts the good people of this state. We already are hurting more then most states with the level of unemployed we have. Yeah, good one Dennis, just try and screw even more good people of Arizona and give us an even higher jobless rate. You POS. Understand the depth of what you are asking for and how many good people this can affect. What a tool.

bpc
04-27-2010, 05:57 PM
Last I heard, it costs the state of California $10.5 billion to provide for the population of illegal immigrants who live there. So, the taxpayers should do nothing? The federal government refuses to deal with the issue. Remember the marches a few years ago? Remember when 80% of Americans demanded that our borders be secured? You know what the government has done about it? Absolutely squat.

The hysterical, polarizing media in America want to make this a race issue. It's not. It's entirely economic. Is Arizona acting because they are a racist state, or because they are driven to desperation by the a totally failed lack of federal will?

Here's another take, I mean other than hysteric:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/clarence-b-jones/somebody-close-the-door-r_b_553937.html

Well-intentioned people are quick to denounce Arizona and call for a boycott of business transactions or travel involving the state. Why are they not calling for a boycott of Mexico? The truth is that Mexico is exporting, or at the very least facilitating the export, of its poverty in the form of illegal immigrants to the United States.

Holy ****. Best post from you in years.

enjolras
04-27-2010, 05:59 PM
I grew up in a military family and MP's on base normally stopped people to check their military ID's. I didn't think anything about it and was stopped regularly being a kid. We knew the rules and abided by them.

The problem with this country is that there is a portion that inherently hates America, although they are too cowardly to come out and say it. Standing against a law created to protect the citizens of this country is absolutely stupid. But that's the ideology of these types... cry, b**** and moan any time we try to enforce laws that have been enacted to protect US citizens.

I grew up on a military base as well. That was the military, and I accepted the in the military things worked a bit differently. I would certainly rather not run a country by the same rules that we govern the military by.

The rest of it is utter crap that I don't believe for one second you actually believe. It's the normal name calling and mud-slinging that defines debate in this country by folks who long ago lost the ability to actually understand (much less believe in) the ideological foundation our forefathers built.

ant1999e
04-27-2010, 05:59 PM
A few things.

Are they Mexicans or Americans? They cannot be both. Pick one.

The legislation in my opinion was designed to force a reaction. American citizens are being butchered in American cities by illegals. The most public case recently was the cattle rancher who was murdered on his own property. The Teaparty is not relevant to the discussion. Not sure why you added them in, and blatantly wrong.

:Broncos:

That's the problem with "whitey". All of us brown skinned people are "mexicans". And yes I do have a problem with the cops pulling me over to see if I'm a citizen. I've been serving my country "America" for 15 years and never been to mexico.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for immigration reform. But I think we're putting the cart before the horse. If you have a leak in your boat, the first thing you should do is fix the leak, then bail the water out. Doing it in the opposite is just counter productive. :peace:

GoBroncos84
04-27-2010, 05:59 PM
Screw Dennis Herrera. That idiot doesn't realize that there are millions of people who work and live in this state and many many of them may not agree with this law. But to suggest that other states should cease to do business here only hurts the good people of this state. We already are hurting more then most states with the level of unemployed we have. Yeah, good one Dennis, just try and screw even more good people of Arizona and give us an even higher jobless rate. You POS. Understand the depth of what you are asking for and how many good people this can affect. What a tool.

You are absolutely correct here. I am appalled by this bill, but that doesn't mean the people should be hurt. This matter should be handled on the legal battlefield, (I strongly believe it violates the 4th amendment and is unconstitutional), but we should not be hurting others out of spite.

Tombstone RJ
04-27-2010, 06:00 PM
Mexico is the real culprit in all of this. The poor have no way to better themselves and the rich will do anything to protect their wealth.

Archer81
04-27-2010, 06:00 PM
Yep.

I should note that there are sections of the law that I think are fantastic (particularly the bit that convicted criminals of illegal immigration status are transferred to immigration after serving a sentence, as opposed to simply being released).


Unless I am missing it, where does it specify a passport or birth certificate as proof of citizenship?

1. DETERMINING ELIGIBILITY FOR ANY PUBLIC BENEFIT, SERVICE OR LICENSE
2 PROVIDED BY ANY FEDERAL, STATE, LOCAL OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS 3 STATE...

Only thing I found.


:Broncos:

enjolras
04-27-2010, 06:02 PM
Well-intentioned people are quick to denounce Arizona and call for a boycott of business transactions or travel involving the state. Why are they not calling for a boycott of Mexico? The truth is that Mexico is exporting, or at the very least facilitating the export, of its poverty in the form of illegal immigrants to the United States.

I actually more or less agree with the author. However, that doesn't remove Arizona from culpability. Bad laws are bad laws. Laws that continue to chip away at our most basic and cherished freedoms are terrible laws. Arizona has passed a terrible law and should be held to the fire for it.

At the same time, we should be solving this problem at all levels. We simply need to do it in a way that is compatible with who we are supposed to be as a people. I'll accept nothing less.

Archer81
04-27-2010, 06:02 PM
That's the problem with "whitey". All of us brown skinned people are "mexicans". And yes I do have a problem with the cops pulling me over to see if I'm a citizen. I've been serving my country "America" for 15 years and never been to mexico.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for immigration reform. But I think we're putting the cart before the horse. If you have a leak in your boat, the first thing you should do is fix the leak, then bail the water out. Doing it in the opposite is just counter productive. :peace:


I was commenting on hyphenated Americans. Are Mexican-Americans mexican or American? What about Guatemalan-Americans? Are they guatemalan or american?

Pick one. I'm not irish-american or italian-american. Im just american.

:Broncos:

GoBroncos84
04-27-2010, 06:03 PM
I actually more or less agree with the author. However, that doesn't remove Arizona from culpability. Bad laws are bad laws. Laws that continue to chip away at our most basic and cherished freedoms are terrible laws. Arizona has passed a terrible law and should be held to the fire for it.

At the same time, we should be solving this problem at all levels. We simply need to do it in a way that is compatible with who we are supposed to be as a people. I'll accept nothing less.

Very well said

orinjkrush
04-27-2010, 06:06 PM
oh, why should we have any laws? they're all just nationalistic jingoism.

live free wherever. do whatever. we just use play money anyhow.

majority population determines everything. ask the chinese. {Mock rant over}

ant1999e
04-27-2010, 06:07 PM
I was commenting on hyphenated Americans. Are Mexican-Americans mexican or American? What about Guatemalan-Americans? Are they guatemalan or american?

Pick one. I'm not irish-american or italian-american. Im just american.

:Broncos:

That label has been put on us by the man to segregate us.

enjolras
04-27-2010, 06:10 PM
Unless I am missing it, where does it specify a passport or birth certificate as proof of citizenship?

1. DETERMINING ELIGIBILITY FOR ANY PUBLIC BENEFIT, SERVICE OR LICENSE
2 PROVIDED BY ANY FEDERAL, STATE, LOCAL OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS 3 STATE...

Only thing I found.


:Broncos:

It doesn't explicitly.

It refers to United States Code 1373(c) which essentially states that immigration authorities must respond to requests to verify citizenship. This is the same process (I-9) an employer uses when verifying employment eligibility.

So a Passport is automatic (establishes legality AND identity). A drivers license (establishes identity) AND a birth certificate (establishes legality). So it doesn't require a birth certificate... but it does mean a drivers license is not enough.

enjolras
04-27-2010, 06:11 PM
You are absolutely correct here. I am appalled by this bill, but that doesn't mean the people should be hurt. This matter should be handled on the legal battlefield, (I strongly believe it violates the 4th amendment and is unconstitutional), but we should not be hurting others out of spite.

I totally agree.

Jason7730
04-27-2010, 06:11 PM
Mexico is the real culprit in all of this. The poor have no way to better themselves and the rich will do anything to protect their wealth.

I also believe this to be true. Is Mexico going to change anytime soon? I don't think so. Is our Federal Govn't taking care of the real problems facing the actual citizens of AZ, with regards to illegal immigration? No. They may be spending billions on it, but it is not working. Phoenix is the kidnaping and car theft capital of our country! Something has to be done. I don't know if this will work, but what is NOT working is what is the current staus quo, imo.

epicSocialism4tw
04-27-2010, 06:12 PM
The rest of it is utter crap that I don't believe for one second you actually believe. It's the normal name calling and mud-slinging that defines debate in this country by folks who long ago lost the ability to actually understand (much less believe in) the ideological foundation our forefathers built.

I tell you what...it isnt the Arizona legislature who is slinging mud and name calling.

Its Barack Obama and the no-stop-campaigning Democratic party who are scrambling to try to pick up votes.

Heck, when GW Bush tried to grant Amnesty to illegal immigrants in the country and their immediate families, he was raked over the coals in what was an extremely unpopular policy.

This is a real issue in border states. Very real.

Archer81
04-27-2010, 06:12 PM
That label has been put on us by the man to segregate us.


The man...


http://tinyurl.com/2dsvsbf


:Broncos:

epicSocialism4tw
04-27-2010, 06:13 PM
That label has been put on us by the man to segregate us.

:spit:

Archer81
04-27-2010, 06:14 PM
It doesn't explicitly.

It refers to United States Code 1373(c) which essentially states that immigration authorities must respond to requests to verify citizenship. This is the same process (I-9) an employer uses when verifying employment eligibility.

So a Passport is automatic (establishes legality AND identity). A drivers license (establishes identity) AND a birth certificate (establishes legality). So it doesn't require a birth certificate... but it does mean a drivers license is not enough.


A greencard fulfills the same criteria of a passport...because it gives them a legal right to work in the country, and identifies them.

So...the only people effected would be illegals...who should not have an american drivers license or a greencard.

:Broncos:

gunns
04-27-2010, 06:14 PM
Not sure why people are so up in arms about this law. Why not let Arizona be Arizona and see how the law effects all immigrants.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong. What I am saying is there is more than one answer to the illegal immigration problem.

I love the Latino communities because they are for the most part grounded in the things I value myself: Family, community, hard work.

That being said, there's some real issues that need to be resolved with all the illegals.

Here's my solution, and it's way more radicalzzzzz:

Grant all illegals citizenship that are here to work (accept for the bad guys who commit crimes). Just do it. Make them tax paying citizens, now!

Once this is done, try really, really hard to monitor the traffic between Mexico and the US and try to prohibit future illegals from crossing the line. That is, really enforce the border and don't let people just cross over in the night.

IMHO this will do two things: Give illegals immunity and citizenship sans criminal behavior and set the foundation for future enforcement of stopping the illegals from crossing the border.

It's a good faith gesture on the US's part, and I new policy moving forward.

I agree with most of this. My son in law was illegal when he came here, he is now legal and pursuing citizenshp. A fine young man. Enforcing the borders is critical as deporting the criminals won't work unless that is done. And how about we ship some of our own American scum over to the other countries.

One thing I will say is they already do pay taxes. THIS is why the government hasn't done much about the situation because they issue tax ID numbers and they do file taxes on the income they make. They cannot pursue the earned income credit or any child tax credits but they also actually get tax returns. The other thing is I want them to learn English. They can't get a good job without that and having two languages.

Finally, they have to be expected to follow all laws and regulations. None of this "they are from another country". When in Rome......

Rohirrim
04-27-2010, 06:16 PM
Here's a threat from Thomas Saenz:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/04/27/saenz.arizona.immigration/index.html?iref=allsearch

If you don't know who Mr. Saenz is, well he's the counsel to Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa. He's also the president and counsel of the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund. He was instrumental in destroying Prop 187, California's attempt to do something about its illegal immigration disaster. Saenz has spent a life time using the courts to destroy American immigration law that would in any way shape or form try to regulate the flow of illegal immigrants from Mexico. Some have even accused him of being part of a movement that would like to return the SW of the U.S. to Mexican control, or at least, a separate hispanic dominated state on the order say, of a latino Israel. Obama was going to put this guy in charge of the civil rights division of the DOJ, until he got a whiff of his politics.

If you don't want to read the article, I'll sum it up for you: It says, hey America, no matter what laws you try to pass or what you try to do, we are going to stop you in the courts, and we are going to make it so prohibitively expensive for your governments to do anything, that you might as well give up.

In other words, it's going to happen anyway. Might as well lie back and enjoy it. ;D

gunns
04-27-2010, 06:20 PM
Enforce border laws. Stiffer penalties for illegal immigrants. Sanctions on Mexico for not policing their borders. We have to be able to do this in such a way that we don't sacrifice our very idealism on the alter of temporary security.

Why is it, in the 'new' America that every time we are faced with a problem we simply roll up into a ball and surrender our ideals (here's looking at you Patriot Act)?

We can be a free society, or we can be a terrified one that surrenders control to government authority. I choose the first.

Excellent post.

enjolras
04-27-2010, 06:21 PM
I've seen the idea of 'lawful contact' debated around this. It is certainly not typical wording for secondary offenses.

From what I can tell, it is essentially saying that this is for any legal contact an officer makes with someone, as long as that contact doesn't break any laws. So they can't knock on my door and demand identification (that's unlawful on it's own merits), but they can stop me on the street in a public place. They are essentially extending the idea of a 'lawful order'.

The story I linked supports my interpretation. There was no primary offense for the truck driver (it was at a weigh station). It was simply a normal point of contact between law enforcement and an individual (checking the trucks weight/manifest).

Archer81
04-27-2010, 06:21 PM
What is funny is that Mexico is ridiculously strict in regards to their border policy. For central americans to get into mexico then into the US, it takes a minor miracle.


:Broncos:

GoBroncos84
04-27-2010, 06:22 PM
Enforce border laws. Stiffer penalties for illegal immigrants. Sanctions on Mexico for not policing their borders. We have to be able to do this in such a way that we don't sacrifice our very idealism on the alter of temporary security.

Why is it, in the 'new' America that every time we are faced with a problem we simply roll up into a ball and surrender our ideals (here's looking at you Patriot Act)?

We can be a free society, or we can be a terrified one that surrenders control to government authority. I choose the first.

Best post of this thread. Dead on. ( I could add the Military Commissions Act and several other examples)

enjolras
04-27-2010, 06:25 PM
A greencard fulfills the same criteria of a passport...because it gives them a legal right to work in the country, and identifies them.

So...the only people effected would be illegals...who should not have an american drivers license or a greencard.

:Broncos:

Man you're just not getting this:)

A completely legal U.S. citizen is affected.

Lets take a hypothetical:

A U.S. citizen is a truck driver and pulls into a weigh station.

Police officer: "Hmmm you look like an illegal, prove to me your not"
Truck Driver: "I'm a U.S. citizen... here's my drivers license"
Police officer: "That only tells me you are who you say you are. Prove to me you actually have citizenship."
Truck Driver: "I can't.. I only have my drivers license"
Police Officer: "Step out of the truck, your going to be detained until we sort this out"

This is the case of U.S. citizen being arrested and detained for not having a birth certificate on them. Does that make sense?

epicSocialism4tw
04-27-2010, 06:28 PM
I agree with most of this. My son in law was illegal when he came here, he is now legal and pursuing citizenshp. A fine young man. Enforcing the borders is critical as deporting the criminals won't work unless that is done. And how about we ship some of our own American scum over to the other countries.

One thing I will say is they already do pay taxes. THIS is why the government hasn't done much about the situation because they issue tax ID numbers and they do file taxes on the income they make. They cannot pursue the earned income credit or any child tax credits but they also actually get tax returns. The other thing is I want them to learn English. They can't get a good job without that and having two languages.

Finally, they have to be expected to follow all laws and regulations. None of this "they are from another country". When in Rome......

I agree with some of this.

On English...
This isnt a big deal. Everyone will speak English after one or two generations. Its a must to succeed, and immigrants are typically goal-oriented, so I wouldnt expect Spanish to be spoken for very long. That's as long as the steady flow is cut off.

On the Border...
The border patrol needs some serious help. Its time for new border policies. A wall may be necessary (think Great Wall), including hi-tech instrumentation that can detect tunnels. This is the place to start. Close the barn door. Now.

On citizenship...
You identify illegal immigrants and their domestic families. You make citizenship really easy. You require a full year of citizenship classes at a very affordable cost. You teach money math, english as a second language, driving standards, community standards, US history, and US politics. Illiteracy is common among Mexican illegal immigrants, so you offer videos and optional remedial English. At the end of the class you give a content-based test, and if they pass, they pay a minimal entrance fee for processing and administrative cost, and they get a social security #. This is only for people IN the country.

Archer81
04-27-2010, 06:30 PM
Man you're just not getting this:)

A completely legal U.S. citizen is affected.

Lets take a hypothetical:

A U.S. citizen is a truck driver and pulls into a weigh station.

Police officer: "Hmmm you look like an illegal, prove to me your not"
Truck Driver: "I'm a U.S. citizen... here's my drivers license"
Police officer: "That only tells me you are who you say you are. Prove to me you actually have citizenship."
Truck Driver: "I can't.. I only have my drivers license"
Police Officer: "Step out of the truck, your going to be detained until we sort this out"

This is the case of U.S. citizen being arrested and detained for not having a birth certificate on them. Does that make sense?


You do know police have the ability, through your license and registration to find proof of residency without having to detain you?

:Broncos:

ohiobronco2
04-27-2010, 06:31 PM
I think it is a great law, because I believe it will force the Federal government to act and it gets people talking. This is a very complex issue. Concerning the illegals who live here, I think that it would be damn near impossible and pretty expensive to force all of them out of this country. My solution, allow those who are here for the right reasons (not for the drug trade or other criminal acts) to stay on the condition that they take citizenship courses and learn to speak the English language. For those who wish to come to this country in the future, you will have to "prove" that you want to be an American by providing service to the American people. By that I mean, join the Coast Guard, Air Force, Marines, work for the US government in some capacity and while doing so you will not only learn the English language and take citizenship courses, but you will also learn a trade. We also need to punish those who employ illegals, frankly I believe that these people are most responsible for this problem. They pay incredibly low wages, don't provide insurance for their workers and their laborers aren't taxed.

enjolras
04-27-2010, 06:33 PM
I will say this: I live in a mixed neighborhood in Denver. My wife and I love to eat at the various taco places along Federal which has a pretty big latino population. I'm always really amazed at how quickly most latino's integrate (at least in Denver) into our culture. Most second generation latino's look and sound like almost any other American teenager. They wear the same clothes and listen to the same music.

My wife is professor at Metro State. A good portion of her students are Latino. She is also consistently amazed at just how 'American' her students are. From just our personal experience, integration hardly seems like the issue.

enjolras
04-27-2010, 06:34 PM
You do know police have the ability, through your license and registration to find proof of residency without having to detain you?

:Broncos:

Except what I presented wasn't hypothetical, it really happened:

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/scarce/az-truck-driver-forced-show-birth-certifica

Archer81
04-27-2010, 06:40 PM
Except what I presented wasn't hypothetical, it really happened:

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/scarce/az-truck-driver-forced-show-birth-certifica


Edit. The bill was signed Friday, April 23. He was pulled over April 21...so how did this law apply to him?


:Broncos:

ScottXray
04-27-2010, 06:41 PM
You do know police have the ability, through your license and registration to find proof of residency without having to detain you?

:Broncos:

The problem is he is quoting a real world example...this already happened.

The driver had to have his wife come to the police station with his birth certificate. Luckily she brought HERS too, cause they asked her for the same ID proof.

Many people don't even HAVE their birth certificates.
and yes I suppose they'll check SS database at some point..but they didn't this time.

epicSocialism4tw
04-27-2010, 06:45 PM
I will say this: I live in a mixed neighborhood in Denver. My wife and I love to eat at the various taco places along Federal which has a pretty big latino population. I'm always really amazed at how quickly most latino's integrate (at least in Denver) into our culture. Most second generation latino's look and sound like almost any other American teenager. They wear the same clothes and listen to the same music.

My wife is professor at Metro State. A good portion of her students are Latino. She is also consistently amazed at just how 'American' her students are. From just our personal experience, integration hardly seems like the issue.

You're right. Its not an issue at all for American-born illegals. They have assimilated happily and willfully.

However, that's not always the case for their parents.

Rohirrim
04-27-2010, 06:48 PM
Here's the truth: The failure of the American government to do anything about illegal immigration is policy, not lack of policy. Mexico sends us oil. We have numerous, very large corporation with facilities in Mexico. A whole bunch of American jobs have been moved there. Here, and in Mexico, American corporations are raking in the dough from cheap, Mexican labor. Remunerations to Mexico from Mexicans living in America is in the billions. It is a large chunk of their economy.

Meanwhile, Mexico has the strictest anti-immigration laws in the hemisphere. If they catch an illegal Guatemalan or Honduran in Mexico, they lock him up for one year before deporting him. No appeals. No questions asked. If we tried to actually do something to control the border, Mexico would retaliate using oil and those American factories in Mexico against us. So, just consider it an under the table subsidy that the states must fund because the federal government is owned by special interests and will not change anything, no matter how many Americans want them to.

We'll be hearing some nice speeches, though. ;D

enjolras
04-27-2010, 06:48 PM
You're right. Its not an issue at all for American-born illegals. They have assimilated happily and willfully.

However, that's not always the case for their parents.

Ya, but isn't that how it's always worked tho? (Little Italy, Little China, etc...)

Rohirrim
04-27-2010, 06:49 PM
Except what I presented wasn't hypothetical, it really happened:

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/scarce/az-truck-driver-forced-show-birth-certifica

Cheech got deported once. Ha!

Dedhed
04-27-2010, 06:49 PM
If you're not an illegal you shouldn't have a problem with being pulled over.
This is just plain ignorant. It's like saying you shouldn't have a problem being pulled over for being black if you haven't broken the law.

Rohirrim
04-27-2010, 06:52 PM
Ya, but isn't that how it's always worked tho? (Little Italy, Little China, etc...)

The numbers of Chinese, Italians, Irish, etc etc etc are miniscule compared to immigration from Mexico. You could add up a hundred years of immigration from Europe during the Industrial Revolution and it wouldn't amount to half the number in ten years from Mexico.

I wonder why the U.S. government has never done a study on the numbers and the costs of illegal immigration? Oh, that's right. They'd get sued.

Dedhed
04-27-2010, 06:54 PM
I think it is a great law, because I believe it will force the Federal government to act and it gets people talking. This is a very complex issue. Concerning the illegals who live here, I think that it would be damn near impossible and pretty expensive to force all of them out of this country. My solution, allow those who are here for the right reasons (not for the drug trade or other criminal acts) to stay on the condition that they take citizenship courses and learn to speak the English language. For those who wish to come to this country in the future, you will have to "prove" that you want to be an American by providing service to the American people. By that I mean, join the Coast Guard, Air Force, Marines, work for the US government in some capacity and while doing so you will not only learn the English language and take citizenship courses, but you will also learn a trade. We also need to punish those who employ illegals, frankly I believe that these people are most responsible for this problem. They pay incredibly low wages, don't provide insurance for their workers and their laborers aren't taxed.This is a little like saying Hitler's persecution of the Jews was a great thing because it got other world leaders talking and working together.

broncocalijohn
04-27-2010, 06:55 PM
It gives authority to pull someone over for doing nothing at all (other than being mexican). You want to live in a police state?

You are full of **** and you point out exactly where it says that. Any of you fools that think this law breaks the 4th amendment, step up and show me. THis law is on the books because federal government has failed to uphold their end of the law. Clinton signed a bill in 96 for states to do exactly what Arizona is doing. Too many of you yahoos probably listen to Sharpten and every other "rally" group that portrays the law as some Nazi law. Good for Arizona for trying to stop murderers and kidnapping from the drug mafias of mexico. Add to the fact that the illegals add a ton of cost to the state, it was time to put matters in their own hands.

Irish Stout
04-27-2010, 06:57 PM
The law requires police to ask for immigration papers from anyone whom they have a "reasonable suspicion" might be in the country illegally. Law-enforcement officials are also empowered to detain anyone they hold in such suspicion.
It's also a state crime under the new law for immigrants to be found without immigration papers; individual citizens, meanwhile, can file suit against state agencies that fail to enforce the law. Police can detain and demand papers from anyone they have "lawful contact" with, but since the law defines illegal immigrants as trespassing when in any part of the United States, this gives the police the freedom to question people who are otherwise not breaking the law or engaging in suspicious activity. Those found to be in the state illegally can be thrown in jail (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/news/ynews/ts_ynews/storytext/ynews_ts1812/35962287/*http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100427/ap_on_re_us/us_immigration_enforcement) for six months and fined $2,500, a harsher penalty than the federal punishment of deportation.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/20100427/ts_ynews/ynews_ts1812


Even the biggest supporters of shutting down on illegal immigration think this is a breach of American liberty. Read the article.

Archer81
04-27-2010, 07:00 PM
Except what I presented wasn't hypothetical, it really happened:

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/scarce/az-truck-driver-forced-show-birth-certifica


The bill was signed into law that friday. He was pulled over that wednesday (before the draft)...how does this law apply to this particular driver?


:Broncos:

El Guapo
04-27-2010, 07:02 PM
Good. That law is insane.

How so?

An "illegal alien" is a foreigner who (1) does not owe allegiance to our country; and (2) who has violated our laws and customs in establishing residence in our country. He or she is therefore a criminal under applicable U.S. laws.

The state is just picking up the slack that the gov't is leaving behind.

GoBroncos84
04-27-2010, 07:03 PM
the same bill is now being proposed in Utah. Here is a great local blog on the topic


http://blogs.standard.net/2010/04/coming-next-apartheid-in-utah-again/


Coming next: Apartheid, in Utah, again.
by Charles Trentelman - Apr 26th, 2010

You knew it was coming, of course. First Arizona passes this really cool law that lets the police down there pick on anyone they want, for whatever reason they want so long as they can claim, somehow, that the person might, maybe, just possibly could be, here illegally, and Utah has to say “Me too! Me too!”

So we have an Orem lawmaker discussing the idea (click) because, after all the bills this last session trying to make miscarriage illegal, and global warming illegal, and the very idea of questioning the motives of anyone who wants a gun illegal, racism has to be next.

Racism? Of course. You think illegal aliens in Utah are a new thing? Silly person. Until the early 80s the majority of illegals in this country, and in Utah as well, were white skinned folk from Scandanavian countries, or European countries. They’d come, look around, say “wow, cool, and I fit right in! and stay.

But now it’s brown skinned people. Oh. My. God.

Nothing new in hating immigrants. A century ago it was the Italians and the Irish. They were the scum of the earth, the dregs of society, they were taking the jobs of good God-fearing Americans (Germans one generation removed, Brits three generations removed, French four generations removed) and, well, we need to DO something.

So now we are again.

Interesting thing, this idea that everyone has to prove their legal residency. Can you?

Don’t be too smug. I bet you can’t. Not unless you carry your passport around. And your birth certificate (not a copy, the original!) And, if birthers have their way, you’ll need a sworn and witnessed affidavit from the attending nurse and doctor who saw you get born.

And Washington Post columnist Richard Cohen makes the very good point that if Arizona (and Utah) cops really really are serious about proving that they AREN’T racial profiling based on skin color, it is us White folk who are in real danger (click.)

I can see it now: Some cop says “Yeah, I know it’s those brown skinned ones, but to keep the ACLU off my butt I had to stop to blondes, a redhead and three guys who might have been from Sweden, I dunno. Ended up arresting them all because none of them had their passports or birth certificates.”

And you’re going to say “If you are innocent you have nothing to worry about.”

You’re cute when you’re being stupid.

What’s REALLY stupid is, I used to laugh at the folk who saw black helicopters and surveillance cameras behind every tree. Who knew they were right?

Oh, what do I mean by “again” in the headline.

Ask a black person. Any black person.

Dedhed
04-27-2010, 07:04 PM
Here's the truth: The failure of the American government to do anything about illegal immigration is policy, not lack of policy. Mexico sends us oil. We have numerous, very large corporation with facilities in Mexico. A whole bunch of American jobs have been moved there. Here, and in Mexico, American corporations are raking in the dough from cheap, Mexican labor. Remunerations to Mexico from Mexicans living in America is in the billions. It is a large chunk of their economy.

Meanwhile, Mexico has the strictest anti-immigration laws in the hemisphere. If they catch an illegal Guatemalan or Honduran in Mexico, they lock him up for one year before deporting him. No appeals. No questions asked. If we tried to actually do something to control the border, Mexico would retaliate using oil and those American factories in Mexico against us. So, just consider it an under the table subsidy that the states must fund because the federal government is owned by special interests and will not change anything, no matter how many Americans want them to.
These are the facts that people refuse to look at, and I always find it funny that the people who scoff at things like alternative fuels and hybrid vehicles are the ones who pine the loudest about illegals. I find it rich that the people who have the biggest issue with the way things are also the ones who have the biggest hand in supporting it.

I wonder if the state of Arizona has any illegals on their payroll. Janitors in state buildings, etc.

gunns
04-27-2010, 07:05 PM
I agree with some of this.

On English...
This isnt a big deal. Everyone will speak English after one or two generations. Its a must to succeed, and immigrants are typically goal-oriented, so I wouldnt expect Spanish to be spoken for very long. That's as long as the steady flow is cut off.

On the Border...
The border patrol needs some serious help. Its time for new border policies. A wall may be necessary (think Great Wall), including hi-tech instrumentation that can detect tunnels. This is the place to start. Close the barn door. Now.

On citizenship...
You identify illegal immigrants and their domestic families. You make citizenship really easy. You require a full year of citizenship classes at a very affordable cost. You teach money math, english as a second language, driving standards, community standards, US history, and US politics. Illiteracy is common among Mexican illegal immigrants, so you offer videos and optional remedial English. At the end of the class you give a content-based test, and if they pass, they pay a minimal entrance fee for processing and administrative cost, and they get a social security #. This is only for people IN the country.


As far as English it's a huge problem. I have clients who have been here for 10 years and speak little English. They have their 7 year olds interpreting for them or we are paying $35/hr to call an interpretor and if you use only 2 minutes, it's still $35. This is after being offered English as a second language class. If the government stops requiring certain entities to provide interpretation I guarantee this people would make an effort on their own to learn English. I'm not really into spending much more money on teaching these people our standards. They have been here long enough to know the standards.

As far as an entrance fee, that is already done for those applying for amnesty that initially entered illegally and it's fairly steep. I think if you truly want it, you'll get it. A lot of them paid a good amount to be brought over here. It was technically a crime to be here illegally so the amount is fair, something we'd have to pay for committing a crime.

Broncojef
04-27-2010, 07:09 PM
I'm headed to the great state of Arizona on vacation this summer...build a fence and keep the illegals out!

Rohirrim
04-27-2010, 07:10 PM
It's easy to understand where the people of Arizona are coming from. Have you read about what's going on in Mexico? Their society is coming unglued. Beheadings, mass murder, shooting at border patrol agents, murdering police and politicians in Mexico is common place, the murder of an American rancher a few weeks ago... If I was living on the border, I'd be building a ****ing wall.

ohiobronco2
04-27-2010, 07:10 PM
This is a little like saying Hitler's persecution of the Jews was a great thing because it got other world leaders talking and working together.

Good call. Those are identical situations. Let me know how many people are starved, gased, incinerated, beaten, raped, and shot as a result of this bill. LOL. Your comparison is........


http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/04/28/2_ringer_060425113418891_wideweb__300x459.jpg

Dedhed
04-27-2010, 07:17 PM
Good call. Those are identical situations. Let me know how many people are starved, gased, incinerated, beaten, raped, and shot as a result of this bill.


It's a mere matter of degree, but given your lack of understanding of what an analogy is, I won't try to explain.

spdirty
04-27-2010, 07:25 PM
This is a little like saying Hitler's persecution of the Jews was a great thing because it got other world leaders talking and working together.

Oh bull****. Till we start rounding a certain sector of people up and throwing them in a gas chamber your idiotic comment is an insult to those who have survived, or been directly affected by the holocaust.

Irish Stout
04-27-2010, 07:29 PM
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

Here's the bill from AZ. The cops can't pull someone over on suspicion, unless that person has committed a traffic infraction. The cops can stop someone on the street to demand identification if they have suspicion that they are an illegal.

Garcia Bronco
04-27-2010, 07:29 PM
It gives authority to pull someone over for doing nothing at all (other than being mexican). You want to live in a police state?

I don't think that is true. How would you have them stop the illegal problem that is hindering their system?

Garcia Bronco
04-27-2010, 07:32 PM
For the same reason I'm absolutely repulsed when someone threatens violence for drawing pictures of Mohammed. Because the whole idea of the law is completely counter to everything that we (as Americans) are supposed to stand for.

How so?

gunns
04-27-2010, 07:39 PM
the same bill is now being proposed in Utah. Here is a great local blog on the topic


http://blogs.standard.net/2010/04/coming-next-apartheid-in-utah-again/


Coming next: Apartheid, in Utah, again.
by Charles Trentelman - Apr 26th, 2010

You knew it was coming, of course. First Arizona passes this really cool law that lets the police down there pick on anyone they want, for whatever reason they want so long as they can claim, somehow, that the person might, maybe, just possibly could be, here illegally, and Utah has to say “Me too! Me too!”

So we have an Orem lawmaker discussing the idea (click) because, after all the bills this last session trying to make miscarriage illegal, and global warming illegal, and the very idea of questioning the motives of anyone who wants a gun illegal, racism has to be next.

Racism? Of course. You think illegal aliens in Utah are a new thing? Silly person. Until the early 80s the majority of illegals in this country, and in Utah as well, were white skinned folk from Scandanavian countries, or European countries. They’d come, look around, say “wow, cool, and I fit right in! and stay.

But now it’s brown skinned people. Oh. My. God.

Nothing new in hating immigrants. A century ago it was the Italians and the Irish. They were the scum of the earth, the dregs of society, they were taking the jobs of good God-fearing Americans (Germans one generation removed, Brits three generations removed, French four generations removed) and, well, we need to DO something.

So now we are again.

Interesting thing, this idea that everyone has to prove their legal residency. Can you?

Don’t be too smug. I bet you can’t. Not unless you carry your passport around. And your birth certificate (not a copy, the original!) And, if birthers have their way, you’ll need a sworn and witnessed affidavit from the attending nurse and doctor who saw you get born.

And Washington Post columnist Richard Cohen makes the very good point that if Arizona (and Utah) cops really really are serious about proving that they AREN’T racial profiling based on skin color, it is us White folk who are in real danger (click.)

I can see it now: Some cop says “Yeah, I know it’s those brown skinned ones, but to keep the ACLU off my butt I had to stop to blondes, a redhead and three guys who might have been from Sweden, I dunno. Ended up arresting them all because none of them had their passports or birth certificates.”

And you’re going to say “If you are innocent you have nothing to worry about.”

You’re cute when you’re being stupid.

What’s REALLY stupid is, I used to laugh at the folk who saw black helicopters and surveillance cameras behind every tree. Who knew they were right?

Oh, what do I mean by “again” in the headline.

Ask a black person. Any black person.

Yes Utah is saying me too, but the state attorney general is already saying he thinks the law in Arizona is illegal. Besides they actually like the illegals and the only thing they do is occassionally do a raid on business's and deport the one's who are truly trying. The bad ones run rampant. The cops already profile with a vengence in Utah. To the sheep in Utah it looks like an effort. And as far as the congressman in Orem, Orem is part of the sheep capitol of the state. Truly clueless to the real world and follow their church members or legislators that tell them sensationalized untruths as the gospel.

Rohirrim
04-27-2010, 07:41 PM
Those who think this law will be declared unconstitutional haven't checked out the Supreme Court lately. ;D

GoBroncos84
04-27-2010, 07:44 PM
Yes Utah is saying me too, but the state attorney general is already saying he thinks the law in Arizona is illegal. Besides they actually like the illegals and the only thing they do is occassionally do a raid on business's and deport the one's who are truly trying. The bad ones run rampant. The cops already profile with a vengence in Utah. To the sheep in Utah it looks like an effort. And as far as the congressman in Orem, Orem is part of the sheep capitol of the state. Truly clueless to the real world and follow their church members or legislators that tell them sensationalized untruths as the gospel.

I live in Utah, and a very large portion of the people I have talked to about this issue over the last couple of days have supported the Arizona bill. It's frightening

GoBroncos84
04-27-2010, 07:46 PM
Those who think this law will be declared unconstitutional haven't checked out the Supreme Court lately. ;D

Definitely a concern. After they gave corporations the same rights as individuals and allow politicians to receive any size donation from any source, foreign or domestic, I agree with your premise. The supreme court cannot be counted on right now to do the right thing

gunns
04-27-2010, 07:54 PM
I live in Utah, and a very large portion of the people I have talked to about this issue over the last couple of days have supported the Arizona bill. It's frightening

I live there too, and the fact that the Hispanic population, legal and illegal, has risen to 12% scares the hell out of the predominantly white population. Like a lot of people across the country the illegals have become a scapegoat for their own problems, primarily financial.

bronco610
04-27-2010, 07:55 PM
I feel I have to way in on this. I don't want a Police State. However, let me share a little story with you. I live in North Texas. 2 years ago our streets in the subdivision I live in had the streets repaved. I attempted to speak with the hispanic man running the heavy equipment. He could not speak english. One of my neighbors does speak spanish though. The man makes $8.25 an hour. he is paid under the table. No taxes taken out. He is able to send at least $150 home to his family in Mexico every week. We had a nice conversation over a few beers at the end of the evening while he told us this. We acted like this was okay so as not to spook him from sharing info. My point is I have heard all the talk about illegal aliens only do the jobs Americans dont want to do. I am almost 52 years old. Have never taken a penny of welfare, or un-employment my entire life. I am back in school earning my degree at the University of North Texas. The economy has changed and true American citizens are suffering. A heavy equipment operator used to be a blue collar trade held in high regard. The going rate in 1982 use to be $15.00 per hour and up, depending on skill level. This man is illegal and taking food off of someones table. Like I said, I dont want a Police State but something has to be done. In North Texas if you drive around any construction sight, it is not American workers doing the building, another trade job that used to pay American blue collar workers a decent wage. The road project I mentioned....... its a government contract. So I guess if proving you have the right to be here legally is a burden, TOO BAD.

Tombstone RJ
04-27-2010, 08:02 PM
I feel I have to way in on this. I don't want a Police State. However, let me share a little story with you. I live in North Texas. 2 years ago our streets in the subdivision I live in had the streets repaved. I attempted to speak with the hispanic man running the heavy equipment. He could not speak english. One of my neighbors does speak spanish though. The man makes $8.25 an hour. he is paid under the table. No taxes taken out. He is able to send at least $150 home to his family in Mexico every week. We had a nice conversation over a few beers at the end of the evening while he told us this. We acted like this was okay so as not to spook him from sharing info. My point is I have heard all the talk about illegal aliens only do the jobs Americans dont want to do. I am almost 52 years old. Have never taken a penny of welfare, or un-employment my entire life. I am back in school earning my degree at the University of North Texas. The economy has changed and true American citizens are suffering. A heavy equipment operator used to be a blue collar trade held in high regard. The going rate in 1982 use to be $15.00 per hour and up, depending on skill level. This man is illegal and taking food off of someones table. Like I said, I dont want a Police State but something has to be done. In North Texas if you drive around any construction sight, it is not American workers doing the building, another trade job that used to pay American blue collar workers a decent wage. The road project I mentioned....... its a government contract. So I guess if proving you have the right to be here legally is a burden, TOO BAD.

Many illegals provide cheap labor and unfortunately, big business survives on cheap labor. That's why companies like for example, Tyson (chicken) will fight any kind of immigration reform because their labor force probably relys heavily on paying low wages to illegals.

In fact, I think much of our service industries rely on labor from illegals. Sad but true. Instead of paying an American $10 an hour and providing good benefits like health care (another huge joke) they'd rather pay an illegal minimum wage and provide no benefits.

This is a serious problem, and the American companies are to blame.

bronco610
04-27-2010, 08:14 PM
Many illegals provide cheap labor and unfortunately, big business survives on cheap labor. That's why companies like for example, Tyson (chicken) will fight any kind of immigration reform because their labor force probably relys heavily on paying low wages to illegals.

In fact, I think much of our service industries rely on labor from illegals. Sad but true. Instead of paying an American $10 an hour and providing good benefits like health care (another huge joke) they'd rather pay an illegal minimum wage and provide no benefits.

This is a serious problem, and the American companies are to blame.

Its not just the corporations. Our own Government has let the corporations move almost all the manufacturing out of America, and given them huge tax breaks for doing it. Something has to change, if it is at the State level then fine.

enjolras
04-27-2010, 08:16 PM
Many illegals provide cheap labor and unfortunately, big business survives on cheap labor. That's why companies like for example, Tyson (chicken) will fight any kind of immigration reform because their labor force probably relys heavily on paying low wages to illegals.

In fact, I think much of our service industries rely on labor from illegals. Sad but true. Instead of paying an American $10 an hour and providing good benefits like health care (another huge joke) they'd rather pay an illegal minimum wage and provide no benefits.

This is a serious problem, and the American companies are to blame.

Which is exactly where the problem needs to be dealt with. I completely support a minimum wage (disclaimer: I'm a business owner with employees). I completely support making sure our workers make enough money to live. Companies who cheat that system need to be MUCH more harshly dealt with. Hell how many polticians have been caught dipping their hands into that cookie jar?

The penalties for hiring illegal aliens are far to lenient. If there are no jobs, much of this problem goes away.

bronco610
04-27-2010, 08:18 PM
Which is exactly where the problem needs to be dealt with. I completely support a minimum wage (disclaimer: I'm a business owner with employees). I completely support making sure our workers make enough money to live. Companies who cheat that system need to be MUCH more harshly dealt with. Hell how many polticians have been caught dipping their hands into that cookie jar?

The penalties for hiring illegal aliens are far to lenient. If there are no jobs, much of this problem goes away.

If there are no illegals to work the jobs, the wage automatically goes up.

Tombstone RJ
04-27-2010, 08:19 PM
Ok, I got an idea. Just, hear me out... we invade Mexico! Problem solved!

gunns
04-27-2010, 08:22 PM
Which is exactly where the problem needs to be dealt with. I completely support a minimum wage (disclaimer: I'm a business owner with employees). I completely support making sure our workers make enough money to live. Companies who cheat that system need to be MUCH more harshly dealt with. Hell how many polticians have been caught dipping their hands into that cookie jar?

The penalties for hiring illegal aliens are far to lenient. If there are no jobs, much of this problem goes away.

Bingo! That's the solution right there.

bronco610
04-27-2010, 08:27 PM
Ok, I got an idea. Just, hear me out... we invade Mexico! Problem solved!

I like it. Tombstone for President !!!

bronco610
04-27-2010, 08:29 PM
Bingo! That's the solution right there.

Only if any employer caught has to forfit all assets and does serious jail time.

El Guapo
04-27-2010, 08:30 PM
Obviously many of you have never lived in a border state, much less a border city. I fully support this and hope all of the other border states hop on.

bronco610
04-27-2010, 08:34 PM
Obviously many of you have never lived in a border state, much less a border city. I fully support this and hope all of the other border states hop on.

Agreed

BroncoLifer
04-27-2010, 08:39 PM
Definitely a concern. After they gave corporations the same rights as individuals and allow politicians to receive any size donation from any source, foreign or domestic, I agree with your premise. The supreme court cannot be counted on right now to do the right thing

What is clear from your post is that you cannot be counted on to understand Citizens United v. FEC.

MaloCS
04-27-2010, 08:40 PM
or American born mexicans...

How can someone be an American born Mexican? Wouldn't you either be American OR Mexican? One or the other? Etc...

Just because someone has brown skin doesn't make them Mexican. I have brown skin and I'm an AMERICAN. My parents are AMERICANS, my grand parents are AMERICANS, my great grand parents were AMERICANS and my great great grandparents were AMERICANS. Not a Mexican in the bunch but we ALL have or had brown skin.

Are Germans the same as Russians? Are the Swiss the same as the Danes? No and some would emphasize HELL NO! Just because they share the same skin color doesn't mean they are the same people.

The term Mexican refers to a nationality not a race. A person with German parents born in Mexico would be considered a Mexican. If you're born in Mexico you're a Mexican, regardless of your skin color. Just because you're brown don't make you Mexican.

I'm brown, I was born here and I'm ALL for the immigration law passed in Arizona. Send ALL the illegals home and welcome the immigrants with open arms that did it the right way.

Broncobiv
04-27-2010, 08:40 PM
Obviously many of you have never lived in a border state, much less a border city. I fully support this and hope all of the other border states hop on.
I've lived in Arizona for 22 out of the past 23 years, and in Tucson for the past 10 (1 hour from Nogales). I'm all for cracking down on illegal immigrants and getting them the hell out of here. But to pass a law that allows cops to pull someone over for DWB (Driving While Brown)? That's crossing the line into absurdity.

bronco610
04-27-2010, 08:44 PM
I've lived in Arizona for 22 out of the past 23 years, and in Tucson for the past 10 (1 hour from Nogales). I'm all for cracking down on illegal immigrants and getting them the hell out of here. But to pass a law that allows cops to pull someone over for DWB (Driving While Brown)? That's crossing the line into absurdity.

Okay, whats your solution? Not being facetious but if you have a better idea lets hear it.

scrap
04-27-2010, 08:44 PM
It gives authority to pull someone over for doing nothing at all (other than being mexican). You want to live in a police state?

Read the law, this is completely untrue.
A) There are very specific violations which allow an officer to ask for proof of citizenship
2) This has to happen after initial police contact from something else. (ie speeding, etc). Nobody is allowed to pull someone over for being mexican.

MaloCS
04-27-2010, 08:45 PM
I've lived in Arizona for 22 out of the past 23 years, and in Tucson for the past 10 (1 hour from Nogales). I'm all for cracking down on illegal immigrants and getting them the hell out of here. But to pass a law that allows cops to pull someone over for DWB (Driving While Brown)? That's crossing the line into absurdity.

just because it's allowed doesn't mean it's going to happen. ****, all you have to do is ask someone a question and based upon how the answer you can determine if their illegal or not.

I can't go into a fast food restaurant without having to deal with people that don't speak MY country's language. Guess what? Those people are all illegals. Send 'em home.

Broncojef
04-27-2010, 09:01 PM
Most Americans walk around with drivers licenses and I'm sure legal migrants do as well. The only ones with something to worry about are those that are here illegally. If I did something illegal in Mexico I don't hesistate to think I'd be thrown in jail or have to bribe my way out of the situation. Build a fence and protect Americans...do we really need to politicize keeping our border towns safe and whip people into a racial fury just so the politicians can look hispanic friendly to the voters in a couple years? I thought this was supposed to end when Barrack "the unifier" was elected. Do the right thing and keep America safe!!!

Broncobiv
04-27-2010, 09:01 PM
Okay, whats your solution? Not being facetious but if you have a better idea lets hear it.
I do not have a better idea. Sorry for the short answer, but it's the truth so I might as well just be honest about it!

But while I don't have a "better" solution, it is still my opinion that this is a bad one. :ouwknow:

UberBroncoMan
04-27-2010, 09:46 PM
It's easy to understand where the people of Arizona are coming from. Have you read about what's going on in Mexico? Their society is coming unglued. Beheadings, mass murder, shooting at border patrol agents, murdering police and politicians in Mexico is common place, the murder of an American rancher a few weeks ago... If I was living on the border, I'd be building a ****ing wall.

I believe there has been over 3 times the amount of deaths in drug murders alone in Mexico the last 3 years than there has been for US forces during in the entire Iraq/Afghan conflict.

It's a ****ing mess down there, and the corruption is so bad among the police and politicians that only the bad ones remain, with the good ones getting constantly assassinated.

Rohirrim
04-27-2010, 09:48 PM
I feel I have to way in on this. I don't want a Police State. However, let me share a little story with you. I live in North Texas. 2 years ago our streets in the subdivision I live in had the streets repaved. I attempted to speak with the hispanic man running the heavy equipment. He could not speak english. One of my neighbors does speak spanish though. The man makes $8.25 an hour. he is paid under the table. No taxes taken out. He is able to send at least $150 home to his family in Mexico every week. We had a nice conversation over a few beers at the end of the evening while he told us this. We acted like this was okay so as not to spook him from sharing info. My point is I have heard all the talk about illegal aliens only do the jobs Americans dont want to do. I am almost 52 years old. Have never taken a penny of welfare, or un-employment my entire life. I am back in school earning my degree at the University of North Texas. The economy has changed and true American citizens are suffering. A heavy equipment operator used to be a blue collar trade held in high regard. The going rate in 1982 use to be $15.00 per hour and up, depending on skill level. This man is illegal and taking food off of someones table. Like I said, I dont want a Police State but something has to be done. In North Texas if you drive around any construction sight, it is not American workers doing the building, another trade job that used to pay American blue collar workers a decent wage. The road project I mentioned....... its a government contract. So I guess if proving you have the right to be here legally is a burden, TOO BAD.

That's true in all the construction trades. I spent some years as a cabinet maker. Back then construction was dominated by Americans. Now I challenge you to find an American on a job site. Those jobs were the backbone of many a community. The idea that Americans would not build houses, hang sheetrock, paint, landscape, build cabinets, roof, do plumbing, etc etc etc is out and out bull****. The jobs have been stolen right out from under us with the government's blessing. The wages have been cut in half and half of that is being sent back to Mexico. Our government at work.

bronco610
04-27-2010, 10:02 PM
That's true in all the construction trades. I spent some years as a cabinet maker. Back then construction was dominated by Americans. Now I challenge you to find an American on a job site. Those jobs were the backbone of many a community. The idea that Americans would not build houses, hang sheetrock, paint, landscape, build cabinets, roof, do plumbing, etc etc etc is out and out bull****. The jobs have been stolen right out from under us with the government's blessing. The wages have been cut in half and half of that is being sent back to Mexico. Our government at work.

So what do we do about it?

spdirty
04-27-2010, 10:37 PM
That's true in all the construction trades. I spent some years as a cabinet maker. Back then construction was dominated by Americans. Now I challenge you to find an American on a job site. Those jobs were the backbone of many a community. The idea that Americans would not build houses, hang sheetrock, paint, landscape, build cabinets, roof, do plumbing, etc etc etc is out and out bull****. The jobs have been stolen right out from under us with the government's blessing. The wages have been cut in half and half of that is being sent back to Mexico. Our government at work.

You can find white guys installing traffic signs.:welcome:


But your right. Seems like maybe 2% of all labor at construction sites is being done by White or Black Americans. And although most of them work their asses off, are extremely good at what they do, and have helped us tremendously in certain situations, it doesnt hide the fact that they are doing it at slave labor costs, are sending much of their money back to their home countries, and are most likely illegal.

spdirty
04-27-2010, 10:40 PM
So what do we do about it?

Probably one of the first and easiest things we can do about it is crack down hardcore on the companies that hire them. Enforce this with random inspections at the worksites. Start at a million dollar fine for the first offense and quadruple that fine for each additional offense. That will either straighten the cheating bastards out in a hurry or put em out of business.

RMT
04-27-2010, 11:10 PM
All I have to say is that there are 460,000 reasons (illegals) a law like this was ever authored in the first place. We hear cries of racism from every corner but has that been proven at all yet? Playing the race card without merit certainly does not endear one's position to voices of reason.

I certainly do not condone anyone being pulled over but perhaps those playing the race card over the Arizona Immigration Law should first recognize WHY there's even a remote chance of "racial profiling" - it's because a significant majority of those who are illegal are of Hispanic descent. I, for one, wouldn't be opposed to more traffic stops in lieu of getting rid of people who are breaking the law by merely being in OUR country. And then exploiting loopholes at the expense of the U.S. taxpayer. And before anyone justifies their presence here by them doing jobs "Americans don't want to do" and them "paying their fair share of taxes," please, go back and do some due diligence. Unemployment is extremely high and illegals take far more than they contribute to our economy. The way I see the Arizona boycott is that there will be a correlation between the number of illegals in their state and the negative impact on the state's economy. The worse the impact, the higher the number of illegals. And since when does one's "financial impact" excuse one intentionally breaking the law of a FOREIGN COUNTRY. These people have little desire to assimilate.

And one more humorous note - I find it extremely amusing (and convenient) how many support the Aztlan movement of Mexicans essentially "reclaiming" the Southwestern portion of the United States. Keep in mind that many of them are of Spanish descent. The Spaniards invaded modern day Mexican four centuries ago, so perhaps Spain should start sending over some of their poor and uneducated to Mexico to balance things out. How ironic that some know less about their own history than those they are trying to shame into submission.

broncocalijohn
04-27-2010, 11:37 PM
So what do we do about it?

You go after the jobs like air conditioning (less pay than 15 years ago thanks to the illegals) and construction where Americans held those jobs and are now pushed out. Last on the list would be service industry. You can root them out all at once or there would be chaos in the business world and also the consumer trying to get goods.

cutthemdown
04-27-2010, 11:45 PM
Insane if the States start fighting like that because feds won't do something.

What's next does a state that is religious get pissed and stop dealing with Calif because we are liberal? This is what feds are for, to regulate between the states.

If anything feds should step in and say Calif can not try and punish Ariz for this law. Or they should tell Arizona you can't do it. Not just say we are looking into it. I mean cmon.

We can't have this, this is not good. We need immigration reform because ariz and calif are imploding over this crisis.

cutthemdown
04-27-2010, 11:47 PM
oooooooh racism...watch out.

RMT
04-27-2010, 11:48 PM
Insane if the States start fighting like that because feds won't do something.

What's next does a state that is religious get pissed and stop dealing with Calif because we are liberal? This is what feds are for, to regulate between the states.

If anything feds should step in and say Calif can not try and punish Ariz for this law. Or they should tell Arizona you can't do it. Not just say we are looking into it. I mean cmon.

We can't have this, this is not good. We need immigration reform because ariz and calif are imploding over this crisis.

Implode - good choice of words; that's exactly what the illegals are hoping for ... they have nothing to lose and our country's resolve (or lack thereof) regarding the blatant, defiant disregard illegals have for our laws is not helping matters any.

cutthemdown
04-27-2010, 11:51 PM
It's not racism anyways, it's called nationalism. Americans want a sensible policy for immigration. It shouldn't be all mexican, or all african, or all anything.

We should open up so many slots a yr, and let a process of applying take place. Right now Mexico is selfishly using America. They actually thwart the migration of any other south american countries. Very hard and trecherous for those to make there way through mexico.

Mexico not a victim here. Illegal mexicans not a victim here. The victims are the kids in Ariz and Calif who have resources sapped by illegals that don't speak English, our emergency rooms overflowed with them.

I applaud Arizona for taking a stand. If calif lawmakers want to further damage our economy by playing the punisher, then I think they could be in for a repub resurgence in calif.

People already fed up with Sacramento.

broncocalijohn
04-27-2010, 11:51 PM
I live there too, and the fact that the Hispanic population, legal and illegal, has risen to 12% scares the hell out of the predominantly white population. Like a lot of people across the country the illegals have become a scapegoat for their own problems, primarily financial.

I know what you mean by "scapegoat". More crime, trouble with school, every American getting jobs in this great economy, etc. Tell ya what Gunns. Let us all know these jobs that Americans dont want, how did places like Iowa survive all these years with us keen folk workin on dem farms and factories?

cutthemdown
04-27-2010, 11:55 PM
Obama needs to nip this in the bud. IMO this is all about trying to change the focus from the energy bill to immigration. They think energy bill watered down by dealing with repubs not enough to win in November. They think if they can fire up the latinos it will work in there favor.

Obama probably would love a huge trade war between calif and ariz. He can use it to try and show his great leadership. He will say this crisis takes drastic amnesty for illegals......ALL HAIL THE OBAMA.

Ok I'm going to go puke now. I just now we do another Reagan mistake and give an amnesty. Then in 15 yrs we will have another 5 million illegals and Latinos will be that much closer to a majority.

Sorry if that's racist but it just doesn't sound smart to me. Mexico a ****ed up country and the ones coming here have little respect for our way of life, values, nothing. This sucks.

cutthemdown
04-27-2010, 11:56 PM
If we are going to let people immigrate and take over can't we pick a country with it's **** together?

mkporter
04-28-2010, 12:12 AM
Obama needs to nip this in the bud. IMO this is all about trying to change the focus from the energy bill to immigration. They think energy bill watered down by dealing with repubs not enough to win in November. They think if they can fire up the latinos it will work in there favor.

Obama probably would love a huge trade war between calif and ariz. He can use it to try and show his great leadership. He will say this crisis takes drastic amnesty for illegals......ALL HAIL THE OBAMA.

Ok I'm going to go puke now. I just now we do another Reagan mistake and give an amnesty. Then in 15 yrs we will have another 5 million illegals and Latinos will be that much closer to a majority.

Sorry if that's racist but it just doesn't sound smart to me. Mexico a ****ed up country and the ones coming here have little respect for our way of life, values, nothing. This sucks.

Wow. Paint with a broad brush much? There are plenty of Mexicans (illegal and otherwise) that are here precisely because they value our way of life. You can't tell me that if you had the misfortune of being born in a bad place that you wouldn't do whatever it took to provide for a better life for your family? But congrats to you for winning the birth lottery and ending up somewhere pretty sweet.

mkporter
04-28-2010, 12:19 AM
Obviously many of you have never lived in a border state, much less a border city. I fully support this and hope all of the other border states hop on.

I live in San Diego. This law pretty much codifies civil right violations, and is wrong.

UberBroncoMan
04-28-2010, 12:20 AM
Wow. Paint with a broad brush much? There are plenty of Mexicans (illegal and otherwise) that are here precisely because they value our way of life. You can't tell me that if you had the misfortune of being born in a bad place that you wouldn't do whatever it took to provide for a better life for your family? But congrats to you for winning the birth lottery and ending up somewhere pretty sweet.

Translator: "It's ok to break the law of another country if it helps you out."

mkporter
04-28-2010, 12:28 AM
Translator: "It's ok to break the law if it helps you out."

Actual translator: Many illegals share the same values that you do.

I'm not saying entering the country illegally is okay. I'm saying it is understandable. Try putting it into the context of the conversation, it will help.

He says:"Mexico a ****ed up country and the ones coming here have little respect for our way of life, values, nothing."

I say: "There are plenty of Mexicans (illegal and otherwise) that are here precisely because they value our way of life. You can't tell me that if you had the misfortune of being born in a bad place that you wouldn't do whatever it took to provide for a better life for your family?"

Providing for your family, bettering your lot in life = American values.

epicSocialism4tw
04-28-2010, 01:19 AM
Actual translator: Many illegals share the same values that you do.

I'm not saying entering the country illegally is okay. I'm saying it is understandable. Try putting it into the context of the conversation, it will help.

He says:"Mexico a ****ed up country and the ones coming here have little respect for our way of life, values, nothing."

I say: "There are plenty of Mexicans (illegal and otherwise) that are here precisely because they value our way of life. You can't tell me that if you had the misfortune of being born in a bad place that you wouldn't do whatever it took to provide for a better life for your family?"

Providing for your family, bettering your lot in life = American values.

I think that he was talking about cultural respect. Somebody had mentioned Aztlan and there's always La Raza and all of that garbage. It doesnt help that these race-baiting groups rile up the masses through media to where these uneducated, politically ignorant poor people from opressed rural areas in Mexico can be manipulated to to their bidding.

The idea that Mexicans can stream across the border and reclaim California and Texas like it was the Oklahoma land run is not one that will sit well with the American people, and rightly so. If we wanted to be Mexico, we would just deteriorate to a corrupt socialist police state run by drug cartels. Our parks are nicer. We could see our citizens hung from redwoods instead of mesquite. From the Golden Gate bridge instead of the bridge to Juarez.

broncocalijohn
04-28-2010, 01:52 AM
Actual translator: Many illegals share the same values that you do.

I'm not saying entering the country illegally is okay. I'm saying it is understandable. Try putting it into the context of the conversation, it will help.

He says:"Mexico a ****ed up country and the ones coming here have little respect for our way of life, values, nothing."

I say: "There are plenty of Mexicans (illegal and otherwise) that are here precisely because they value our way of life. You can't tell me that if you had the misfortune of being born in a bad place that you wouldn't do whatever it took to provide for a better life for your family?"

Providing for your family, bettering your lot in life = American values.

so be it but it is breaking the law. I am not an American so i can take care of those who just want a better life. They should work on their own government at home. Many of them dont want to be affiliated with United States anyways, so why do we legal workers and citizens need to take care of them? Schools, hospitals, etc. is coming from our pocket book. So to recap, they are trying to better themselves by breaking the law and come to the United States and we are stopping them from breaking the law and burdening us with their problems.

Meck77
04-28-2010, 02:20 AM
Get all the latest on FaceBook. http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#!/StandWithArizona


http://j.imagehost.org/0767/illegal.jpg (http://j.imagehost.org/view/0767/illegal)


“Luz verde para invadir Arizona" = "Green light
to invade Arizona.”

Killericon
04-28-2010, 03:05 AM
If you're not an illegal you shouldn't have a problem with being pulled over.

This is the number one argument for any invasion of privacy.
"Why would you mind a wire tap if you're not breaking any laws?"
"Why would you care about public camera surveillance if you're just out and about?"
"Why would you care if the police don't need a warrant to search your house at any time?"
"If you're a law-abiding citizen, why do you need privacy from the authorities at all?"

I'm fairly anti-illegal but I'd accept this on one condition. Make it be known that ANY criminal activity (we're not talking speeding tickets though) results in deportation.

This **** makes sense to me. Is there a greater problem that needs solving? Of course. Is the answer a gradual citizenship program? Maybe, I don't know. But as long as illegal immigrants are here illegally, then that might as well mean something. Is the US better off with them there? I have no ****ing clue. I do think that you should enforce the law as it is, not wherever convenient.

In other words, I'm saying that without opposing the bill for your pro/anti-immigration stance, you should oppose it if you stand for privacy as a core value. It's my belief that you need probable cause to search someone. This does not count.

If anyone is a lawyer, I have a question: Crossing the border is an illegal act, right? Does staying in the US count as a continuing act? Or is it a singular act that stops occurring once you're in the US(Of course, you can still prove the crime happened because the person is in the US, but I'm just curious)?

cutthemdown
04-28-2010, 04:24 AM
I'm sure there are plenty of law abiding Mexicans who are exactly the way MKPORTER says. The problem is there are million of illegals, so when you have bad apples, its a lot of apples. When some cause problems, it's a lot. It's enough something has to be done.

I'm not saying all Mexicans are crap. I have many Latino friends and respect the culture. I don't however respect the government, or the way the advocate there citizens breaking our laws, living here illegally, not paying taxes, sapping services, then sending the money home. I understand the country poor and desperate, but it's draining california.

It doesn't IMO codify civil rights abuses. There is no civil right to not identifying yourself when asked by a police officer. There is no civil right to being in country illegal. The fact that one race on people feels singled out is only because the crime is committed by them in a large %. The law as written would also work for anyone not in country legally. At some point Mexico may get it together, they don't want to come here anymore, and then it's some other nationality that tries to break the law in large numbers.

A law requiring people to prove they are American, or have a travel or work visa, IMO isn't much different then having to show ID to get into a bar. Or having to show ID when stopped driving a car, or asked by any law enforcement at any time.

Still though i don't support this being done at State level. This is federal territory and it's only because of there complete ineptness that Arizona was forced to make this statement.

Obama needs to come up with a plan that works. Not some ram amnesty though. A real deal that makes everyone a little happy, but no one stoked. That's how it's supposed to work.

The whole make them pay a fine though is a joke. What dollar amount would people accept for this? IMO it should be about 50 grand to buy your way into America. Otherwise you go through the process we already have. Am I crazy? I mean we do have a process to become an American if your not lucky enough to be Obama and get birth certificate changed?

Sorry I couldn't resist.

tesnyde
04-28-2010, 04:44 AM
I'm headed to the great state of Arizona on vacation this summer...build a fence and keep the illegals out!

I booked a timeshare over the 4th. I plan to support AZ and visit family and friends. I think I'll make sure to see Al, a friend of mine who was hit by an illegal and left in the baking sun. He has burn scars and a rod in his neck. I will also visit Mark. He's Keith Poole's little brother (former Bronco WR). Mark gets to ride in wheel chair for the rest of life because he also got hit by an illegal that fled the scene. His best friend got killed in that wreck. Every country I have lived (Colombia, Indonesia, Mexico, and Venezuela) or visited required proof of being there legally. I respected their laws and it wasn't a big deal.

Killericon
04-28-2010, 04:46 AM
You're looking at this the wrong way, IMO. You're concerned about the civil rights of the illegal immigrants(BTW, the Constitution doesn't discriminate between citizens and non-citizens. Everyone is equal in terms of rights, but let's ignore that landmine for a moment). I'm looking at the civil rights of the people who are getting pulled over because they look like they're illegal immigrants. It's a blatant violation of their rights.

A law requiring people to prove they are American, or have a travel or work visa, IMO isn't much different then having to show ID to get into a bar. Or having to show ID when stopped driving a car, or asked by any law enforcement at any time.

Showing your ID at a bar is different than this because you're proving that you're of age to access a controlled substance, which is a voluntary act. If a Police Officer pulls you over, they need a reason to do it, otherwise nothing they do(except in Arizona) will stick. Law Enforcement needs cause to ask someone to produce ID.

This law changes probable cause from your actions to our race. It's no longer about what you do(which is what all law enforcement should be based on) and about something inactive.

There is no civil right to not identifying yourself when asked by a police officer. There is no civil right to being in country illegal.

The right to privacy isn't specifically listed in the constitution, but the fourth amendment states pretty clearly the position on this issue(It even mentions 'papers'). It's a dark, dark day when "He looked Mexican" stands as a 'reasonable' grounds for searching someone.

Again, do I think Illegals should be offered a home? Should a fence be built? I have no clue. But this bill is pretty disgusting.

WolfpackGuy
04-28-2010, 04:58 AM
If you're not here illegally, then what do you have to worry about?

Really, this has little to do with jobs and A LOT to do with the naturalized citizen issue. Children being born to illegals who obviously don't pay taxes are killing the health, welfare, and education systems. That money comes from somewhere, and that somewhere is from everyone else who PAY taxes.

ColoradoDarin
04-28-2010, 05:51 AM
The new law that Gov. Brewer signed does NOTHING to change existing (illegal) immigration law.
All it does is allows LOCAL law enforcement to enforce existing Federal (illegal) immigration law.

Gob
04-28-2010, 05:54 AM
I think for some people the only acceptable way to enforce immigration laws on Mexican border states is not to. Or investigate one person of every race for each Mexican-looking person investigated. "No Sargent, we have to find some more Pacific Islanders to investigate before we get that guy running from the border fence."

Tombstone RJ
04-28-2010, 09:05 AM
Get all the latest on FaceBook. http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#!/StandWithArizona


http://j.imagehost.org/0767/illegal.jpg (http://j.imagehost.org/view/0767/illegal)


“Luz verde para invadir Arizona" = "Green light
to invade Arizona.”

This is exactly why we must invade Mexico first! Where's George Bush when you really need him?

Dogsweat
04-28-2010, 09:09 AM
San Francisco is boycotting Arizona?

How about the Nation boycott San Francisco?

http://articles.sfgate.com/2008-07-16/opinion/17120431_1_sanctuary-city-immigration-status-illegal-immigrants

And no--- I am not a Republican.

SportinOne
04-28-2010, 09:33 AM
for the Mexicans, it's about survival. i support those who come here to lead productive lives, and not so much the ones who come here to deal cocaine, rob, or murder. thankfully, most are not doing this.

here's something... why isn't it possible for Canada and the US to get together and help fix all the crap that is going on down there? we spent a decade and billions of dollars trying to fix iraq but we can't fix mexico?

mkporter
04-28-2010, 09:34 AM
I'm sure there are plenty of law abiding Mexicans who are exactly the way MKPORTER says. The problem is there are million of illegals, so when you have bad apples, its a lot of apples. When some cause problems, it's a lot. It's enough something has to be done.


Agreed.


I'm not saying all Mexicans are crap. I have many Latino friends and respect the culture. I don't however respect the government, or the way the advocate there citizens breaking our laws, living here illegally, not paying taxes, sapping services, then sending the money home. I understand the country poor and desperate, but it's draining california.


There is no doubt that illegal immigration is a drain on resources, although usually overstated, IMO. I absolutely am in favor of comprehensive immigration reform, for this reason and many others.


It doesn't IMO codify civil rights abuses. There is no civil right to not identifying yourself when asked by a police officer. There is no civil right to being in country illegal. The fact that one race on people feels singled out is only because the crime is committed by them in a large %. The law as written would also work for anyone not in country legally. At some point Mexico may get it together, they don't want to come here anymore, and then it's some other nationality that tries to break the law in large numbers.


Actually, there is a civil right to not identify yourself when asked. It's in the 4th amendment to the constitution. Here's the text:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

An officer must have probable cause to detain you, and then you are required to show identification. The Arizona law is written to be extremely vague in this area, which will undoubtedly lead to many people having their constitutional rights violated. That's not okay with me.


A law requiring people to prove they are American, or have a travel or work visa, IMO isn't much different then having to show ID to get into a bar. Or having to show ID when stopped driving a car, or asked by any law enforcement at any time.


This is much different than being asked at a bar. A bar is a private establishment, and you are VOLUNTARILY providing your ID to receive a service.


Still though i don't support this being done at State level. This is federal territory and it's only because of there complete ineptness that Arizona was forced to make this statement.


Yeah, there's no way that this should be done at the state level. The Arizona law most likely is unconstitutional because of this. The federal government has the sole power to regulate immigration. I understand the frustration of Arizona and other border states, and I totally agree that this issue has been ignored for way too long. I hope to see congress and the white house deal with this issue this year.


Obama needs to come up with a plan that works. Not some ram amnesty though. A real deal that makes everyone a little happy, but no one stoked. That's how it's supposed to work.


I actually think there there has been some progress made in the senate on a reasonable bill. I think comprehensive reform needs:
-better border control
-better enforcement of the law, particularly with respect to businesses hiring illegals
-A better system for verifying the citizenship status of anyone in the country
-A path to citizenship for otherwise law abiding illegal immigrants; The burden to deport millions of people or whatever the number would dwarf the existing drain on services
-And just for the sake of being comprehensive, a large increase in the visas granted for highly skilled workers (H1B visas, etc). We need to be stealing everyone else's smart and talented people.


The whole make them pay a fine though is a joke. What dollar amount would people accept for this? IMO it should be about 50 grand to buy your way into America. Otherwise you go through the process we already have. Am I crazy? I mean we do have a process to become an American if your not lucky enough to be Obama and get birth certificate changed?

Sorry I couldn't resist.

Now that was funny. And I'm a elitist, socialist, blue-stater.

SportinOne
04-28-2010, 09:35 AM
San Francisco is boycotting Arizona?

How about the Nation boycott San Francisco?

http://articles.sfgate.com/2008-07-16/opinion/17120431_1_sanctuary-city-immigration-status-illegal-immigrants

And no--- I am not a Republican.

please. it's a murder. it happens, and it doesn't take an illegal to do it. boycott detroit.

Dogsweat
04-28-2010, 09:48 AM
please. it's a murder. it happens, and it doesn't take an illegal to do it. boycott detroit.


Okay. But I refuse to buy "Rice a Roni."

http://www.amoeba.com/dynamic-images/blog/Nor%20Cal%20Bloggers/ricearoni

ghwk
04-28-2010, 09:53 AM
I think we should just buy Mexico from the Mexicans. It can probably be had for not too many Pesos and the government has to want to get out of the business of governing because they suck at it. The politicians want to be rich; fine throw in a few extra pesos to grease the sale, they are so corrupt you know they would take it. Mexico is a failed Nation State so we should just buy it and make it part of the US. Takes care of the immigration problem and we can then use it's economic value and our resources to better everyone. People wouldn't have to immigrate because they'd already be part of the US. Sure the transition would have problems but we'd get there eventually and everyone would be better off for it.

RocBronc
04-28-2010, 10:32 AM
This guy said it so much better than I could...

http://townhall.com/columnists/JonahGoldberg/2010/04/28/arizonas_ugly_but_necessary_immigration_law


On Monday, Matt Lauer of "Today" interviewed Joe Arpaio, the Maricopa County, Ariz., sheriff who's made a national name for himself cracking down on illegal immigration. Lauer noted that Arizona's new immigration bill has the support of 70 percent of Arizonans. "But get this," Lauer added, "53 percent of those same people said they worry it could lead to civil rights violations."

Lauer and other commentators seem to think that there's something of a contradiction here. I don't see it, perhaps because it describes my own position so well. I support the Arizona law, but I'm also worried that it could lead to civil rights abuses.

It seems that whenever government expands either its powers or its enforcement efforts, you should be worried that it could go too far. But such worries have to be balanced against necessity.

I agree that there's something ugly about the police, even local police, asking citizens for their "papers" (there's nothing particularly ugly about asking illegal immigrants for their papers, though). There's also something ugly about American citizens being physically searched at airports. There's something ugly about IRS agents prying into nearly all of your personal financial transactions or, thanks to the passage of ObamaCare, serving as health insurance enforcers.




In other words, there are many government functions that are unappealing to one extent or another. That is not in itself an argument against them. The Patriot Act was ugly -- and necessary.

Consider California's decision to "lead by example" on global warming. Environmentalists argued that Washington was negligent in fighting climate change at the federal level. Hence California had no choice but to tackle a national problem at the state level. California implemented standards that are considerably more strict than those required (for now) by Washington.

Arizona's law is more humble than that. While California pushed a stricter standard than the one Washington was enforcing, Arizona seeks to enforce the federal law that Washington isn't enforcing.

The constitutional and legal issues make the parallel less than perfect, but the principle remains the same. Indeed, I'd wager that the costs of illegal immigration -- economic, social and environmental -- on Arizona dwarf the costs on California from global warming, at least so far.

President Obama seems to get this, sort of: "Indeed, our failure to act responsibly at the federal level will only open the door to irresponsibility by others. And that includes, for example, the recent efforts in Arizona."

This is awfully tendentious since he takes it as a given that Arizona's effort to take some responsibility for a problem is best understood as "irresponsible," as if continuing to do nothing at the local level while too little is done at the federal level would be more responsible. Of course, "irresponsible" is lavish praise compared with charges of "apartheid" and "Nazi" coming from some opponents of the law, including Los Angeles Cardinal Roger Mahony.

Regardless, Obama is right insofar as Arizona's effort is the inevitable consequence of Washington's inability to take illegal immigration seriously.

Which is why the Democrats' sudden decision to push for "comprehensive" immigration reform is so disappointing. If this were a sincere effort at reform, it would be laudable. But it's almost impossible to find anyone in Washington not paid to spout Democratic talking points who believes this is anything but a naked political ploy. Even such reliably liberal bloggers as Josh Marshall and the Washington Post's Ezra Klein concede that this is first and foremost a partisan stunt and wedge issue intended to split the GOP and woo Latinos, particularly in Nevada, where Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid needs a game-changer to avoid crushing defeat in November.

Now, I don't mind wedge issues per se -- though liberals have been decrying them for decades. Still, this is beyond the pale. Ginning up a lot of anger on both sides of the issue without any serious hope of success will in all likelihood send the signal that Washington still thinks it's all a big, unserious game. And that is precisely why we will get more laws like Arizona's and make real immigration reform all the harder, if Washington ever tries to pursue it seriously.

mkporter
04-28-2010, 11:04 AM
Which is why the Democrats' sudden decision to push for "comprehensive" immigration reform is so disappointing. If this were a sincere effort at reform, it would be laudable. But it's almost impossible to find anyone in Washington not paid to spout Democratic talking points who believes this is anything but a naked political ploy. Even such reliably liberal bloggers as Josh Marshall and the Washington Post's Ezra Klein concede that this is first and foremost a partisan stunt and wedge issue intended to split the GOP and woo Latinos, particularly in Nevada, where Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid needs a game-changer to avoid crushing defeat in November.

Now, I don't mind wedge issues per se -- though liberals have been decrying them for decades. Still, this is beyond the pale. Ginning up a lot of anger on both sides of the issue without any serious hope of success will in all likelihood send the signal that Washington still thinks it's all a big, unserious game. And that is precisely why we will get more laws like Arizona's and make real immigration reform all the harder, if Washington ever tries to pursue it seriously.

Chuck Schumer[D-NY], and Lindsey Graham[R-SC] have been working on a comprehensive reform bill for a while now. Immigration reform has been a priority since the new administration started. These kinds of bills take a long time to craft. In my opinion, they are on a pretty reasonable path that seems to address the main issues. The guidelines of their effort are as follows:
* requiring biometric Social Security cards to ensure that illegal workers cannot get jobs;
* strengthening border security and interior enforcement;
* creating a process for admitting temporary workers; and
* implementing a "tough but fair path" to legalization for workers already in the United States.

The political gamesmanship that we see after the Arizona is mostly window dressing, regarding how hard to push to get the bill completed and on the floor. My hope is that all the bluster on both sides doesn't derail the work that has been done thus far.

ghwk
04-28-2010, 11:09 AM
Chuck Schumer[D-NY], and Lindsey Graham[R-SC] have been working on a comprehensive reform bill for a while now. Immigration reform has been a priority since the new administration started. These kinds of bills take a long time to craft. In my opinion, they are on a pretty reasonable path that seems to address the main issues. The guidelines of their effort are as follows:
* requiring biometric Social Security cards to ensure that illegal workers cannot get jobs;
* strengthening border security and interior enforcement;
* creating a process for admitting temporary workers; and
* implementing a "tough but fair path" to legalization for workers already in the United States.

The political gamesmanship that we see after the Arizona is mostly window dressing, regarding how hard to push to get the bill completed and on the floor. My hope is that all the bluster on both sides doesn't derail the work that has been done thus far.

Both sides will do what they always do, use the issue for politcal gain in one way or another and then F**K the whole thing up.

broncocalijohn
04-28-2010, 11:16 AM
for the Mexicans, it's about survival. i support those who come here to lead productive lives, and not so much the ones who come here to deal cocaine, rob, or murder. thankfully, most are not doing this.

here's something... why isn't it possible for Canada and the US to get together and help fix all the crap that is going on down there? we spent a decade and billions of dollars trying to fix iraq but we can't fix mexico?

Mexico, as a country, is not poor. The government is set up to keep the poor at that level. Mexico has monopolies and has either the top billionaires or now top 3. Corruption is tops in that country and you would have to invade and take over to do anything about that. We get all the poor workers because of their ****ed up way of doing things in Mexico.
This law does not pull over cars just to ask if they are legal. This law is doing what the federal law is supposed to do. 60% of Americans polled approve of the Arizona law. If boycotts start to happen, I guarantee you many of those 60% will make it a point to vacation in the state. Many of the other 40% dont give enough damn to drive around Arizona to get to wherever they are going. I am sure Lake Havasu will still have many boats with horny, naked chicks on board this summer.

Rohirrim
04-28-2010, 11:18 AM
Chuck Schumer[D-NY], and Lindsey Graham[R-SC] have been working on a comprehensive reform bill for a while now. Immigration reform has been a priority since the new administration started. These kinds of bills take a long time to craft. In my opinion, they are on a pretty reasonable path that seems to address the main issues. The guidelines of their effort are as follows:
* requiring biometric Social Security cards to ensure that illegal workers cannot get jobs;
* strengthening border security and interior enforcement;
* creating a process for admitting temporary workers; and
* implementing a "tough but fair path" to legalization for workers already in the United States.

The political gamesmanship that we see after the Arizona is mostly window dressing, regarding how hard to push to get the bill completed and on the floor. My hope is that all the bluster on both sides doesn't derail the work that has been done thus far.

They did the same thing in the 80s when they passed the Simpson-Mazzoli immigration bill. It had the same concepts within it. The politicians passed it, the president signed it, everybody took pictures and handed out pens and patted each other on the backs and smiled for the cameras, and then the bill was never funded. The SS card system was never set up. Nobody did anything.

Expect more of the same.

bronco militia
04-28-2010, 11:19 AM
i am sure lake havasu will still have many boats with horny, naked chicks on board this summer.

yeahhhh!

broncocalijohn
04-28-2010, 11:22 AM
Chuck Schumer[D-NY], and Lindsey Graham[R-SC] have been working on a comprehensive reform bill for a while now. Immigration reform has been a priority since the new administration started.



That reform bill is not to stop these illegal aliens already in the country but to let them stay. Americans dont want that either. Just because Obama wants it doesnt mean we, as citizens, want it. Graham wants the cheap labor for his buddies in his state. Comprehensive Reform Bill = amnesty. We dont want another amnesty bill. The one in 1986 hasnt done the legal, police work that was promised. All we got was millions of legal residents and citizens without the bite to stop these next 12 million illegals. Please check the percentage of illegals in LA jails. These arent all poor families just looking to make ends meet. They are a burden of billions of dollars just in California.

mkporter
04-28-2010, 11:23 AM
Both sides will do what they always do, use the issue for politcal gain in one way or another and then **** the whole thing up.

It is depressing sometimes. I see a lot of work being done in congress (the senate in particular) that seems like really good work that has common sense goals that should have pretty broad support, and then one side or the other (usually both) finds a minor issue to quibble over, and the whole thing blows up into a massive feud.

Health care reform is a great example. This was a bill written primarily by the democrats based largely on the republican health care proposals from McCain's response to HillaryCare to Romney's plan when he was governor. Market based health care reform from the democrats? But get some misinformation out there, and pretty soon it is socialism and death panels, and the neither side will talk to the other.

I hope we can avoid the same thing happening to immigration reform, the energy bill, and wall street reform, but I'm not hopeful.

UberBroncoMan
04-28-2010, 11:35 AM
Actual translator: Many illegals share the same values that you do.

I'm not saying entering the country illegally is okay. I'm saying it is understandable. Try putting it into the context of the conversation, it will help.

He says:"Mexico a ****ed up country and the ones coming here have little respect for our way of life, values, nothing."

I say: "There are plenty of Mexicans (illegal and otherwise) that are here precisely because they value our way of life. You can't tell me that if you had the misfortune of being born in a bad place that you wouldn't do whatever it took to provide for a better life for your family?"

Providing for your family, bettering your lot in life = American values.

Considering I'm 1/2 Mexican I don't really agree that I think that way. At least I don't think my own grandparents etc had no respect for the American way of life etc... then again they came here legally.

If you want to leave a **** hole like Mexico do it the right way. Breaking the law to leave a bad situation isn't acceptable.

mkporter
04-28-2010, 11:44 AM
That reform bill is not to stop these illegal aliens already in the country but to let them stay. Americans dont want that either. Just because Obama wants it doesnt mean we, as citizens, want it. Graham wants the cheap labor for his buddies in his state. Comprehensive Reform Bill = amnesty. We dont want another amnesty bill. The one in 1986 hasnt done the legal, police work that was promised. All we got was millions of legal residents and citizens without the bite to stop these next 12 million illegals. Please check the percentage of illegals in LA jails. These arent all poor families just looking to make ends meet. They are a burden of billions of dollars just in California.

I would also like a magic wand to remove every illegal alien, but it isn't going to happen. We have to deal with situation as it exists. The '86 bill certainly has it's issues. For one, if you have 3 or fewer employees, you don't have to check citizenship status. This way, big companies can hire tons of sub contractors(who don't have to check), and not worry about employing thousands of illegals. Companies also were not required to verify documentation presented, and the government didn't provision to handle the job adequately.

A path to citizenship for existing illegals (Amnesty if you insist) is only a part of comprehensive reform, and it doesn't apply to those who have committed crimes. I totally agree you need stop the flow of illegals into the country. I wouldn't support any bill the doesn't do that first.

From Schumer (http://schumer.senate.gov/new_website/record.cfm?id=314990):

1. Illegal immigration is wrong, and a primary goal of comprehensive immigration reform must be to dramatically curtail future illegal immigration.

2. Operational control of our borders--through significant additional increases in infrastructure, technology, and border personnel--must be achieved within a year of enactment of legislation.

3. A biometric-based employer verification system—with tough enforcement and auditing—is necessary to significantly diminish the job magnet that attracts illegal aliens to the United States and to provide certainty and simplicity for employers.

4. All illegal aliens present in the United States on the date of enactment of our bill must quickly register their presence with the United States Government—and submit to a rigorous process of converting to legal status and earning a path to citizenship—or face imminent deportation.

5. Family reunification is a cornerstone value of our immigration system. By dramatically reducing illegal immigration, we can create more room for both family immigration and employment-based immigration.

6. We must encourage the world’s best and brightest individuals to come to the United States and create the new technologies and businesses that will employ countless American workers, but must discourage businesses from using our immigration laws as a means to obtain temporary and less-expensive foreign labor to replace capable American workers; and finally

7. We must create a system that converts the current flow of unskilled illegal immigrants into the United States into a more manageable and controlled flow of legal immigrants who can be absorbed by our economy.

Archer81
04-28-2010, 11:46 AM
Technically, all illegals in the country have commited a crime...


:Broncos:

bronclvr
04-28-2010, 11:51 AM
Technically, all illegals in the country have commited a crime...


:Broncos:

:thumbsup:

mkporter
04-28-2010, 11:51 AM
Considering I'm 1/2 Mexican I don't really agree that I think that way. At least I don't think my own grandparents etc had no respect for the American way of life etc... then again they came here legally.

If you want to leave a **** hole like Mexico do it the right way. Breaking the law to leave a bad situation isn't acceptable.

UberBroncoMan- I wasn't saying that you (UberBroncoMan) think that way. That was a direct quote from cutthemdown, who I was responding to originally when you jumped in. My point was he (cutthemdown) was unfairly generalizing and entire country's population.

Dogsweat
04-28-2010, 11:52 AM
Technically, all illegals in the country have commited a crime...


Beautiful....

Tombstone RJ
04-28-2010, 11:58 AM
Technically, all illegals in the country have commited a crime...


:Broncos:

Hence the term "illegal"...

mkporter
04-28-2010, 11:58 AM
Technically, all illegals in the country have commited a crime...


Knew that was coming eventually. Congrats on getting to it first..

Archer81
04-28-2010, 12:05 PM
Knew that was coming eventually. Congrats on getting to it first..


Thank you.

It is ingenious of congress to say deportation of 12 million people (we did it before, in the 1950s to give returning wwII and korean vets work) is impossible, so we will only allow amnesty to the "good ones". They all broke the law. Most of them had to break other laws to even get meaningful employment or basic utilities (identity theft). Disregarding the law to create new citizens who bipassed lawful immigration invites further illegal immigration and creates a future problem down the road.

:Broncos:

broncocalijohn
04-28-2010, 12:10 PM
You know if we had a strict law that had no utlities to be turned on except by legal resident and if a legal resident puts their name on a dwelling with illegal aliens they would be prosecuted, the amnesty crowd would cry that this could lead to candles burning instead of electricity and this could cause a fire.

Rock Chalk
04-28-2010, 12:11 PM
It gives authority to pull someone over for doing nothing at all (other than being mexican). You want to live in a police state?

Idiot.

Cops already have that authority. Whether they are Mexican or America or Asian or whatever.

They need no reason to pull you over whatsoever. ****ing morons.

bronclvr
04-28-2010, 12:28 PM
Watch out, it spreading!

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/042810dnmetimmigrationbill.1185ea0.html

Archer81
04-28-2010, 01:01 PM
From a Michelle Malkin article:

– The Mexican government will bar foreigners if they upset “the equilibrium of the national demographics.” How’s that for racial and ethnic profiling?
– If outsiders do not enhance the country’s “economic or national interests” or are “not found to be physically or mentally healthy,” they are not welcome. Neither are those who show “contempt against national sovereignty or security.” They must not be economic burdens on society and must have clean criminal histories. Those seeking to obtain Mexican citizenship must show a birth certificate, provide a bank statement proving economic independence, pass an exam and prove they can provide their own health care.
– Illegal entry into the country is equivalent to a felony punishable by two years’ imprisonment. Document fraud is subject to fine and imprisonment; so is alien marriage fraud. Evading deportation is a serious crime; illegal re-entry after deportation is punishable by ten years’ imprisonment. Foreigners may be kicked out of the country (http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=22430) without due process and the endless bites at the litigation apple that illegal aliens are afforded in our country (see, for example, President Obama’s illegal alien aunt (http://michellemalkin.com/?s=zeituni) — a fugitive from deportation for eight years who is awaiting a second decision on her previously rejected asylum claim).
– Law enforcement officials at all levels — by national mandate — must cooperate to enforce immigration laws, including illegal alien arrests and deportations. The Mexican military is also required to assist in immigration enforcement operations. Native-born Mexicans are empowered to make citizens’ arrests of illegal aliens and turn them in to authorities.
– Ready to show your papers? Mexico’s National Catalog of Foreigners tracks all outside tourists and foreign nationals. A National Population Registry tracks and verifies the identity of every member of the population, who must carry a citizens’ identity card. Visitors who do not possess proper documents and identification are subject to arrest as illegal aliens.
All of these provisions are enshrined in Mexico’s Ley General de Población (General Law of the Population) (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:H_bzXzbAGe4J:www.conapo.gob.mx/transparencia/lgp.pdf+mexico+ley+general+poblacion&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESictaqF5KNa50nmFlVzzT6zXOfk-Mfoko2BpKI-KHwLNheQ7zNINCf2rhkzkcbUFoTKQKJJtTjNawGIMPHKLcEaq2 c9Hj792u1FNqoZlOzOOznMrZVF91q1xggN9SujviWcC8pO&sig=AHIEtbRVrEJhIlUPbac81LKbLE6sJH0meg) and were spotlighted in a 2006 research paper published by the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Security Policy (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:4AIcmcmfvj8J:www.c4ads.org/files/waller_csp_apr2006_mexico.pdf+mexico%27s+glass+hou se&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgS4tdUajcgtRziPvxJXTdeA14JPvp3IQaYLC2z mVg2Q3CE3YzfY4pOThQLHsj7GiVmiXDPABYZHkuDU-BX7h9sGaTxVqJ-6TOX_Tvg18ClRYn5evDaZrRtso6hwqar8HnIgZl_&sig=AHIEtbRMQC6VZd9dyx_6bGzv2O6k3X1n-A). There’s been no public clamor for “comprehensive immigration reform” in Mexico, however, because pro-illegal alien speech by outsiders is prohibited

:Broncos:

brother love
04-28-2010, 01:11 PM
How about if you are caught sneaking into the United States illeagaly you are shot dead on the spot! If they want to become citizens through legal means I have no problem with that at all.

mkporter
04-28-2010, 01:27 PM
How about if you are caught sneaking into the United States illeagaly you are shot dead on the spot! If they want to become citizens through legal means I have no problem with that at all.

I knew we could take this to the logical extreme. Nice. The scary thing is I'm not sure if you are serious or not. Let's not forget to round all the illegals up and put 'em in the gas chamber.

Rohirrim
04-28-2010, 01:28 PM
I just wish we would treat citizenship in the U.S. as if it had some value.

mkporter
04-28-2010, 01:31 PM
From a Michelle Malkin article:

– The Mexican government will bar foreigners if they upset “the equilibrium of the national demographics.” How’s that for racial and ethnic profiling?
– If outsiders do not enhance the country’s “economic or national interests” or are “not found to be physically or mentally healthy,” they are not welcome. Neither are those who show “contempt against national sovereignty or security.” They must not be economic burdens on society and must have clean criminal histories. Those seeking to obtain Mexican citizenship must show a birth certificate, provide a bank statement proving economic independence, pass an exam and prove they can provide their own health care.
– Illegal entry into the country is equivalent to a felony punishable by two years’ imprisonment. Document fraud is subject to fine and imprisonment; so is alien marriage fraud. Evading deportation is a serious crime; illegal re-entry after deportation is punishable by ten years’ imprisonment. Foreigners may be kicked out of the country (http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=22430) without due process and the endless bites at the litigation apple that illegal aliens are afforded in our country (see, for example, President Obama’s illegal alien aunt (http://michellemalkin.com/?s=zeituni) — a fugitive from deportation for eight years who is awaiting a second decision on her previously rejected asylum claim).
– Law enforcement officials at all levels — by national mandate — must cooperate to enforce immigration laws, including illegal alien arrests and deportations. The Mexican military is also required to assist in immigration enforcement operations. Native-born Mexicans are empowered to make citizens’ arrests of illegal aliens and turn them in to authorities.
– Ready to show your papers? Mexico’s National Catalog of Foreigners tracks all outside tourists and foreign nationals. A National Population Registry tracks and verifies the identity of every member of the population, who must carry a citizens’ identity card. Visitors who do not possess proper documents and identification are subject to arrest as illegal aliens.
All of these provisions are enshrined in Mexico’s Ley General de Población (General Law of the Population) (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:H_bzXzbAGe4J:www.conapo.gob.mx/transparencia/lgp.pdf+mexico+ley+general+poblacion&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESictaqF5KNa50nmFlVzzT6zXOfk-Mfoko2BpKI-KHwLNheQ7zNINCf2rhkzkcbUFoTKQKJJtTjNawGIMPHKLcEaq2 c9Hj792u1FNqoZlOzOOznMrZVF91q1xggN9SujviWcC8pO&sig=AHIEtbRVrEJhIlUPbac81LKbLE6sJH0meg) and were spotlighted in a 2006 research paper published by the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Security Policy (http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:4AIcmcmfvj8J:www.c4ads.org/files/waller_csp_apr2006_mexico.pdf+mexico%27s+glass+hou se&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgS4tdUajcgtRziPvxJXTdeA14JPvp3IQaYLC2z mVg2Q3CE3YzfY4pOThQLHsj7GiVmiXDPABYZHkuDU-BX7h9sGaTxVqJ-6TOX_Tvg18ClRYn5evDaZrRtso6hwqar8HnIgZl_&sig=AHIEtbRMQC6VZd9dyx_6bGzv2O6k3X1n-A). There’s been no public clamor for “comprehensive immigration reform” in Mexico, however, because pro-illegal alien speech by outsiders is prohibited

:Broncos:

I'm confused as to your point. Are you advocating that we be more like Mexico, or less? It kinda sounds like you think we should be more like Mexico.

cutthemdown
04-28-2010, 01:36 PM
The more I think about it the more I have to say i don't like it. I have to agree that it doesn't seem American for Latinos to have police asking them for there papers. It is like the old movies about the USSR. You papers please.......I'm sorry Mr Sprauge these papers are not in order.........

Having it done this way is not our way. I have changed my mind this is wrong IMO.

We need the feds to swoop in and fix this. We can't have states enforcing laws that should be enforced by the feds. What's next Montana going to launch an attack on Canada? Ok that was a joke but still..

IMO this could be a test for Obama. Can he reform immigration without his law just being a this will make the Latinos vote democrat forever bill.

We need a real law that is good for all of America. And you know what good for Mexico also.

Mexico's culture of going to America, making money, sending some home, as a way of there economy has held country back.

Mexico has way more potential then just a spring break party destination, cheap labor and drug running.

Sorry but they have natural resources, land, hard working people. They only thing to blame has to be crappy govt for yrs and yrs and yrs going all the way back to the dip **** santa ana.

cutthemdown
04-28-2010, 01:41 PM
I'm confused as to your point. Are you advocating that we be more like Mexico, or less? It kinda sounds like you think we should be more like Mexico.

I think he's pointing out that Mexico treats non mexicans much the same way this law would treat them if in USA illegally.

As I pointed out Mexico very harsh to illegals from other countries. It's a known fact Guatemalans have a ton of trouble making it to California because the Mexicans prey on them, thwart them. The mexican govt does nothing to help them because they know Guatemalans won't send money back to mexico.

cutthemdown
04-28-2010, 01:44 PM
How about if you are caught sneaking into the United States illeagaly you are shot dead on the spot! If they want to become citizens through legal means I have no problem with that at all.

I've said things like this but deep down I knew I didn't mean it. Would you really want to live in a place you get shot for walking over the border? I just can't agree with turning America into a place where people are asked for there papers, then shot when they don't have them. Is that really the place you want to call home?

This is crazy......We need our president to step in and fix this problem.

DBruleU
04-28-2010, 01:44 PM
The more I think about it the more I have to say i don't like it. I have to agree that it doesn't seem American for Latinos to have police asking them for there papers. It is like the old movies about the USSR. You papers please.......I'm sorry Mr Sprauge these papers are not in order.........

Having it done this way is not our way. I have changed my mind this is wrong IMO.

We need the feds to swoop in and fix this. We can't have states enforcing laws that should be enforced by the feds. What's next Montana going to launch an attack on Canada? Ok that was a joke but still..

IMO this could be a test for Obama. Can he reform immigration without his law just being a this will make the Latinos vote democrat forever bill.

We need a real law that is good for all of America. And you know what good for Mexico also.

Mexico's culture of going to America, making money, sending some home, as a way of there economy has held country back.

Mexico has way more potential then just a spring break party destination, cheap labor and drug running.

Sorry but they have natural resources, land, hard working people. They only thing to blame has to be crappy govt for yrs and yrs and yrs going all the way back to the dip **** santa ana.

Unfortunately they won't so the States need to enforce the laws that federal government should be enforcing. All they are doing is what the Fed should be doing...how is this wrong?

I usually agree with most of what you say, but I don't agree with anything in this post. The Canada comparison is dumb and unrealistic.

You say this un-American to ask for someones legality in our country...how is that un-American? By not enforcing our immigration laws we are devaluing our citizenship.

When I've spent time over the summers in Europe, specifically eastern Europe we would get pulled over randomly and were asked for our papers. Once you show that you are there legally, everything is fine. We need to have the balls to enforce our freaking laws and I don't care who it upsets.

DBruleU
04-28-2010, 01:45 PM
I've said things like this but deep down I knew I didn't mean it. Would you really want to live in a place you get shot for walking over the border? I just can't agree with turning America into a place where people are asked for there papers, then shot when they don't have them. Is that really the place you want to call home?

This is crazy......We need our president to step in and fix this problem.

You and I both know that won't happen. Bravo to AZ and any other border State that takes this into their own hands and does what needs to be done.

bronclvr
04-28-2010, 01:48 PM
You and I both know that won't happen. Bravo to AZ and any other border State that takes this into their own hands and does what needs to be done.

:notworthy

cutthemdown
04-28-2010, 01:54 PM
I wasn't really serious with the Montana thing it was meant to show that some things aren't the states responsibility. I think it's dangerous to have them start making laws like this. We are a republic and set up to have certain things done by feds, others by states.

IMO Arizona is trying to make a point, but I agree with local police when they say this makes there job too tough. This isn't there job.

Also I don't think America is like Eastern Europe. We have more freedoms then Eastern Europe is used to. I just picture a state where no Latino can go anywhere without being asked for his papers, while white people walk around never being asked.

The more I think about that the more I change my mind. We don't single out one race, on religion in the USA.

I understand the frustration, I agree feds should secure border, fine companies that hire illegals, even arrest them when discovered to be illegal and deport.

I just don't support police asking everyone with dark skin for there papers. That's not the way to do it. This is just a crazy reaction to a federal govt that is totally inept. Oh but I'm sure healthcare will be great.

Archer81
04-28-2010, 03:07 PM
I'm confused as to your point. Are you advocating that we be more like Mexico, or less? It kinda sounds like you think we should be more like Mexico.


The Mexican president recently said Arizona passing this law "instigates hatred, ect"...yet Mexican law is far more xenophobic and brutish then the Arizona law will ever be.

Its called hypocrisy.

:Broncos:

epicSocialism4tw
04-28-2010, 03:08 PM
I wasn't really serious with the Montana thing it was meant to show that some things aren't the states responsibility. I think it's dangerous to have them start making laws like this. We are a republic and set up to have certain things done by feds, others by states.

IMO Arizona is trying to make a point, but I agree with local police when they say this makes there job too tough. This isn't there job.

Also I don't think America is like Eastern Europe. We have more freedoms then Eastern Europe is used to. I just picture a state where no Latino can go anywhere without being asked for his papers, while white people walk around never being asked.

The more I think about that the more I change my mind. We don't single out one race, on religion in the USA.

I understand the frustration, I agree feds should secure border, fine companies that hire illegals, even arrest them when discovered to be illegal and deport.

I just don't support police asking everyone with dark skin for there papers. That's not the way to do it. This is just a crazy reaction to a federal govt that is totally inept. Oh but I'm sure healthcare will be great.

Grace is the best way to handle this, but the most important thing here is ensuring that we are serious about fixing this. The message has to be strong and final. That message will make it to Mexico and people will be less likely to undergo the hard work it takes to get across the border.

You dont want to communicate some sappy message. The message has to be firm and serious.

Illegal immigration is a huge issue that affects just about every American personally. It needs some resolution, and resolution will not come with mass amnesty or continuing to ignore the problems because you dont want to hurt somebody's feelings.

Illegal immigrants understand fully that they are here against the law. They understand that they break laws daily. They are willing to break the law.

We understand that Mexico is a crappy, racist, garbage country that takes advantage of their own people and hates their own poor. What theyre proud of is anyone's guess. We dont want people to be taken advantage of by their government.

However, we cannot solve everyone's problems and we need to take care of our own. Border states are in trouble. Illegal immigrants are causing real, tangible problems that cannot be solved by listening to racemen pontificate the greatness of their race and considering that a legitimate reason to continue to force injustice on our own citizens who are protected under our constitution.

More important than reaching out a hand for help to poor people from another country is establishing justice for our own citizens.

Justice is waaay more important to a society than charity. Charity flows from justice.

enjolras
04-28-2010, 03:25 PM
You and I both know that won't happen. Bravo to AZ and any other border State that takes this into their own hands and does what needs to be done.

Bravo to the cowards of Arizona who gladly toss away the basic idea of freedom to achieve a bit of temporary security.

Yay for them!!

They rock!!



Cowards... the whole lot of them.

mkporter
04-28-2010, 03:25 PM
Democrats want border security before legalization (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100428/ap_on_bi_ge/us_immigration_senate;_ylt=AghoykrGgs5PnQZK230kV9V v24cA;_ylu=X3oDMTNhNHBoaDdnBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwNDI 4L3VzX2ltbWlncmF0aW9uX3NlbmF0ZQRjY29kZQNtb3N0cG9wd WxhcgRjcG9zAzEEcG9zAzEEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yaWVzBHN sawNkZW1vY3JhdHN3YW4-)


NO! I want amnesty for everyone and everything first!

epicSocialism4tw
04-28-2010, 03:28 PM
Democrats want border security before legalization (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100428/ap_on_bi_ge/us_immigration_senate;_ylt=AghoykrGgs5PnQZK230kV9V v24cA;_ylu=X3oDMTNhNHBoaDdnBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwNDI 4L3VzX2ltbWlncmF0aW9uX3NlbmF0ZQRjY29kZQNtb3N0cG9wd WxhcgRjcG9zAzEEcG9zAzEEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yaWVzBHN sawNkZW1vY3JhdHN3YW4-)


NO! I want amnesty for everyone and everything first!

Its imperative that the border be closed NOW. Like...yesterday.

You cant just push through amnesty because the floodgates will open for about another year.

The border needs to be closed tight right away.

mkporter
04-28-2010, 03:31 PM
The Mexican president recently said Arizona passing this law "instigates hatred, ect"...yet Mexican law is far more xenophobic and brutish then the Arizona law will ever be.

Its called hypocrisy.

:Broncos:

Gotcha. Agreed. I don't give a rat's azz about if Mexico is butt hurt over our law.

Archer81
04-28-2010, 03:36 PM
Gotcha. Agreed. I don't give a rat's azz about if Mexico is butt hurt over our law.


Its also illegal in Mexico for foriegners to interfere with national politics...Mexican consulates regularly involve themselves with the American political process.

At what point do we look at Mexico as something other then a benign backwater border nation? Maybe when the illegals in the border states outnumber actual citizens and agitate to leave the US and join Mexico? It sounds crazy, but it could happen.

:Broncos:

brother love
04-28-2010, 03:44 PM
When I said shoot people dead I meant this as a deterent. Right now there is nothing that would keep people from illegally coming here. So why not try if there are no penalties to face? In no way did I mean to round up all illegals and execute them!
Or better yet if you are caught here illegally you are put into our military for 4 years. When you complete your service you become a legal citizen.

Rohirrim
04-28-2010, 03:48 PM
Ha! This going to to end the way it has every single time for the last hundred years. Lots of speeches. Lots of hair pulling and chest beating. Hysteria and marches. Then some form of watered down garbage legislation will be tossed out, under-funded, and left to wither. And next election cycle, it will start all over again. Same as it ever was.

Here's the bottom line. America will never stop illegal immigration from Mexico. Why? Because Mexico is opposed to it, big agriculture is opposed to it, and all those corporations, here and in Mexico, are opposed to it. So go march, and vote, write letters and foment. Dust in the wind.

epicSocialism4tw
04-28-2010, 03:58 PM
Ha! This going to to end the way it has every single time for the last hundred years. Lots of speeches. Lots of hair pulling and chest beating. Hysteria and marches. Then some form of watered down garbage legislation will be tossed out, under-funded, and left to wither. And next election cycle, it will start all over again. Same as it ever was.

Here's the bottom line. America will never stop illegal immigration from Mexico. Why? Because Mexico is opposed to it, big agriculture is opposed to it, and all those corporations, here and in Mexico, are opposed to it. So go march, and vote, write letters and foment. Dust in the wind.

Its no wonder that the American populace is reacting as strongly against the government now as it has since the Civil Rights movement. People understand what a boondoggle this monstrosity has become. Its why people want to strip them of power by cutting spending and taxes.

Once upon a time, states were able to adress problems in a way that they see fit. It was a better way to handle these issues because you didnt depend on the federal government to come up with some nebulus, useless conglomeration that makes more people mad than it satisfies.

Its going to take justice to satisfy people on this issue, and if our government neglects to give it to its own citizens because the political class is to afraid to address the issue because they are in competition for the potential voting base that would come. See what theyre doing here? They do not want to serve their own people and establish justice for them because they would rather sell them down the river for votes.

These are our leaders.

They arent leading us anymore.

DBruleU
04-28-2010, 04:11 PM
Bravo to the cowards of Arizona who gladly toss away the basic idea of freedom to achieve a bit of temporary security.

Yay for them!!

They rock!!



Cowards... the whole lot of them.

What are you talking about? Tossing away freedoms? I guess we should let whoever the heck wants to come into this country illegally and not enforce the law...because that infringes on freedoms folks.

Get real.

Archer81
04-28-2010, 04:45 PM
Its no wonder that the American populace is reacting as strongly against the government now as it has since the Civil Rights movement. People understand what a boondoggle this monstrosity has become. Its why people want to strip them of power by cutting spending and taxes.

Once upon a time, states were able to adress problems in a way that they see fit. It was a better way to handle these issues because you didnt depend on the federal government to come up with some nebulus, useless conglomeration that makes more people mad than it satisfies.

Its going to take justice to satisfy people on this issue, and if our government neglects to give it to its own citizens because the political class is to afraid to address the issue because they are in competition for the potential voting base that would come. See what theyre doing here? They do not want to serve their own people and establish justice for them because they would rather sell them down the river for votes.

These are our leaders.

They arent leading us anymore.


I would think Arizona, New Mexico, Texas and California as border states would have a clearer picture of what would work then what doesnt...the over reliance on the federal government creates cluster ****s like New Orleans after Katrina or the border for the last 50 years.


:Broncos:

RocBronc
04-28-2010, 05:02 PM
Ha! This going to to end the way it has every single time for the last hundred years. Lots of speeches. Lots of hair pulling and chest beating. Hysteria and marches. Then some form of watered down garbage legislation will be tossed out, under-funded, and left to wither. And next election cycle, it will start all over again. Same as it ever was.

Here's the bottom line. America will never stop illegal immigration from Mexico. Why? Because Mexico is opposed to it, big agriculture is opposed to it, and all those corporations, here and in Mexico, are opposed to it. So go march, and vote, write letters and foment. Dust in the wind.

I understand your frustration but as long as you think like this you're falling right into the trap that these crappy politicians want... Don't be a sucker!!!

mkporter
04-28-2010, 05:17 PM
What are you talking about? Tossing away freedoms? I guess we should let whoever the heck wants to come into this country illegally and not enforce the law...because that infringes on freedoms folks.

Get real.


The fourth amendment is a freedom. It's a part of our constitution. This law conflicts with the constitution. Should we scrap that document? What freedom does poor border control take away from you? Freedom from lackluster enforcement of the law? Why not a law that doesn't take away US citizen's rights? Don't act like the AZ law was the only possible law that could have been written.

Rohirrim
04-28-2010, 05:38 PM
I understand your frustration but as long as you think like this you're falling right into the trap that these crappy politicians want... Don't be a sucker!!!

I'm old enough to have watched the immigration battle come to the forefront about five or six times in my life. It always follows the pattern I outlined above. Face it. Until we get massive campaign finance reform and throw the special interests out of our government, nothing will change. The last time we went through this immigration frenzy 80% of Americans wanted the borders secured. 80%! In a democracy, that's an overwhelming number. What did the government do about it? Nothing. That 80% may represent a lot of Americans, but it does not represent the lobbyists walking down the halls of Congress handing out the envelopes with the checks in them. Those are the people Congress responds to.

I work in a hospital. I would say an average of 10 times a month an illegal alien with no insurance comes in and has a baby. That baby immediately goes on Medicaid and food stamps. Multiply that by how many hospitals in this country. And that's only a tiny slice of the costs. How about schools? ERs? Lost jobs? The states pay those costs.

Younger people on this board might think this issue is just coming to a head now, but it's not. This is just a replay of the same thing that's been going on for many, many decades. Our government could resolve it, but they refuse to do so.

Archer81
04-28-2010, 05:48 PM
I'm old enough to have watched the immigration battle come to the forefront about five or six times in my life. It always follows the pattern I outlined above. Face it. Until we get massive campaign finance reform and throw the special interests out of our government, nothing will change. The last time we went through this immigration frenzy 80% of Americans wanted the borders secured. 80%! In a democracy, that's an overwhelming number. What did the government do about it? Nothing. That 80% may represent a lot of Americans, but it does not represent the lobbyists walking down the halls of Congress handing out the envelopes with the checks in them. Those are the people Congress responds to.

I work in a hospital. I would say an average of 10 times a month an illegal alien with no insurance comes in and has a baby. That baby immediately goes on Medicaid and food stamps. Multiply that by how many hospitals in this country. And that's only a tiny slice of the costs. How about schools? ERs? Lost jobs? The states pay those costs.

Younger people on this board might think this issue is just coming to a head now, but it's not. This is just a replay of the same thing that's been going on for many, many decades. Our government could resolve it, but they refuse to do so.

Being a student of history...this has come up before. The 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s...each time the bill was supposed to fix it. But the hispanic population has become a alrge voting bloc. Messing with it can anger the hispanics, and swing how our politicians react. Now, Americans are dying in American cities because of Mexican drug wars. Any motion to secure our border is viewed as racist, xenophobic, hating on brown people...do people realize anything applied to the Mexican border would apply to Canada as well? Will this take a nuclear bomb parts being flown into mexico, assembled and then driven across the border into El Paso, San Diego or Laredo and then detonated before our politicians take it ****ing seriously?

:Broncos:

orinjkrush
04-28-2010, 05:50 PM
Ok, I got an idea. Just, hear me out... we invade Mexico! Problem solved!

if we really wanted to build a "state" Mehico would be it. Not Iraq.

Archer81
04-28-2010, 05:55 PM
if we really wanted to build a "state" Mehico would be it. Not Iraq.


If I could go back in time...I'd go back to 1848 and insist the US annex all of Mexico...a 400 mile border in central America is easier to deal with then a 2000 mile border at the rio grande.


:Broncos:

Meck77
04-28-2010, 06:14 PM
Have any of you people ever been to Mexico? For crying out loud we gringos get pulled over just for being white. Furthermore they basically tell you to give them money or they will take you to jail. I have ZERO problem with the police asking for proof of citizenship. Ask the white people, ask the darker skinned, ask the Asians. Ask them all! We might just find out that there are a lot more illegals around besides the Mexicans.

epicSocialism4tw
04-28-2010, 06:15 PM
The fourth amendment is a freedom. It's a part of our constitution. This law conflicts with the constitution. Should we scrap that document? What freedom does poor border control take away from you? Freedom from lackluster enforcement of the law? Why not a law that doesn't take away US citizen's rights? Don't act like the AZ law was the only possible law that could have been written.

Lets begin with the impedence on the rights of our fellow citizens on the border itself.

Our people along the border are being shot, robbed, and mistreated. Their land is being destroyed, their houses are being robbed, their vehicles are being stolen, they cannot provide security for their families, they lose livestock, and they have drug cartels using their property as a drug highway. Their rights have been trampled under foot by our federal government, who has neglected to ensure their rights under the constitution by enforcing the laws that keep them safe.

And the problem fans out and is much more widespread. The challenge of treating illegal aliens in our hospitals has grown to red alert status. Emergency rooms have become walk-in clinics for illegals. Our good will is being taken advantage of as they cannot be turned away. Hospitals have shut down, and are still running out of business. Schools have become weighed down with ESL-needy children from poor families, and the schools are accumulating costs for additional programs to keep those kids at as close to standard education as possible. We have seen the standard living wage decrease because jobs that used to make 15-20 dollars an hour are now below 10. These are only a few of the widespread effects that this has had on our country. It is infringing on the rights of our own citizens.

orinjkrush
04-28-2010, 06:22 PM
Ha! This going to to end the way it has every single time for the last hundred years. Lots of speeches. Lots of hair pulling and chest beating. Hysteria and marches. Then some form of watered down garbage legislation will be tossed out, under-funded, and left to wither. And next election cycle, it will start all over again. Same as it ever was.

Here's the bottom line. America will never stop illegal immigration from Mexico. Why? Because Mexico is opposed to it, big agriculture is opposed to it, and all those corporations, here and in Mexico, are opposed to it. So go march, and vote, write letters and foment. Dust in the wind.

rep. there are too many special interests that will continue what they have wrought. bull**** crap will be passed.

this is how Rome fell. from within. illegal means illegal. ie. criminal.
we have lost the balls to do anything important. rather our leaders have whored themselves into anything anywhere anytime.

amazingly we offer a fast track to citizenship to aliens who serve in the military.

Hessians?

the ultimate goal is to destroy nationalism (read America first and last) so as to further international, mulitnational corporations.

at least that's what the mushrooms are telling me.

UberBroncoMan
04-28-2010, 06:26 PM
Something that really pisses me off about this is Obama. He just did another ****ing Town Hall and this time he was saying how you couldn't even go to the ice rink with your kids without your papers because you could get harassed.

He didn't once let anyone know that the person would have to be robbing the ice rink (ie. getting arrested) before papers could be asked for.

So sick of shady politician bull ****. It's all about trying to get illegals amnesty so they can get their votes. They don't give a **** about the people, the truth, creating more blue collared American jobs for citizens, or securing the borders.

El Guapo
04-28-2010, 07:16 PM
He's always campaigning and always spewing b.s. out of his mouth.

mkporter
04-28-2010, 07:33 PM
Something that really pisses me off about this is Obama. He just did another ****ing Town Hall and this time he was saying how you couldn't even go to the ice rink with your kids without your papers because you could get harassed.

He didn't once let anyone know that the person would have to be robbing the ice rink (ie. getting arrested) before papers could be asked for.



Do you want to know the real reason he didn't say that? It's because it isn't true. The Arizona law says that only "lawful contact" and suspicion of being an illegal is required. Lawful contact includes anything that isn't illegal, like talking to you on the street. So in Obama's example, if you are in a public place (i.e. an ice rink) and a cop has reasonable cause to suspect you might be an illegal (i.e. you are brown), he can check your papers. And if you are not carrying your passport or your driver's license and birth certificate, you can be detained until your citizenship status can be determined.

Here's the relevant text of the law:

"FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c)."

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf (//http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf)

mkporter
04-28-2010, 07:44 PM
Lets begin with the impedence on the rights of our fellow citizens on the border itself.

Our people along the border are being shot, robbed, and mistreated. Their land is being destroyed, their houses are being robbed, their vehicles are being stolen, they cannot provide security for their families, they lose livestock, and they have drug cartels using their property as a drug highway. Their rights have been trampled under foot by our federal government, who has neglected to ensure their rights under the constitution by enforcing the laws that keep them safe.


Their rights have actually been trampled by the people breaking the law, not the people who didn't catch them. Here's an analogy: a cop isn't able to catch a guy who stole a gun. Maybe because he was too busy trying to catch a guy who robbed a bank, or some other reason. Then the guy who stole the gun shoots somebody. Did that cop violate the dead guy's rights? Or was it the police chief was set the cop's priorities? Or the city council that underfunded the police department? Or the public that elected the city council?


And the problem fans out and is much more widespread. The challenge of treating illegal aliens in our hospitals has grown to red alert status. Emergency rooms have become walk-in clinics for illegals. Our good will is being taken advantage of as they cannot be turned away. Hospitals have shut down, and are still running out of business. Schools have become weighed down with ESL-needy children from poor families, and the schools are accumulating costs for additional programs to keep those kids at as close to standard education as possible. We have seen the standard living wage decrease because jobs that used to make 15-20 dollars an hour are now below 10. These are only a few of the widespread effects that this has had on our country. It is infringing on the rights of our own citizens.

I get that illegal immigration has negative consequences. I'm guessing that you will get pretty strong agreement from most people on that fact. The problem that people have with this law in particular is that it steps all over the constitution of the United States. Right problem, wrong solution.

epicSocialism4tw
04-28-2010, 07:52 PM
Their rights have actually been trampled by the people breaking the law, not the people who didn't catch them. Here's an analogy: a cop isn't able to catch a guy who stole a gun. Maybe because he was too busy trying to catch a guy who robbed a bank, or some other reason. Then the guy who stole the gun shoots somebody. Did that cop violate the dead guy's rights? Or was it the police chief was set the cop's priorities? Or the city council that underfunded the police department? Or the public that elected the city council?

I get that illegal immigration has negative consequences. I'm guessing that you will get pretty strong agreement from most people on that fact. The problem that people have with this law in particular is that it steps all over the constitution of the United States. Right problem, wrong solution.

The federal government has assumed on itself the charge of upholding the rights of citizens as afforded by the constitution. We know full well that the federal government are not fulfilling their responsibility to their people by following through on laws in place. By allowing criminals activity to increase exponentially on the border, the federal government has itself allowed the conditions for that criminal environment to exist.

States are fed up. Expect Texas, New Mexico, and even California to produce similar law in the near future. Now that Arizona has led the way, other states will follow suit.

Border states should form a Border Security Coalition to get proper resolution on this issue. The rest of the country obviously doesnt care that border states are being destroyed by this (ahem, California). Border states will have to go it alone or see quality of life decrease dramatically.

El Guapo
04-28-2010, 08:10 PM
Hey look! It's working.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100429/ap_on_re_us/us_immigration_day_labor_3

broncocalijohn
04-28-2010, 08:16 PM
Do you want to know the real reason he didn't say that? It's because it isn't true. The Arizona law says that only "lawful contact" and suspicion of being an illegal is required. Lawful contact includes anything that isn't illegal, like talking to you on the street. So in Obama's example, if you are in a public place (i.e. an ice rink) and a cop has reasonable cause to suspect you might be an illegal (i.e. you are brown), he can check your papers. And if you are not carrying your passport or your driver's license and birth certificate, you can be detained until your citizenship status can be determined.

Here's the relevant text of the law:

"FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c)."

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf (//http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf)

You need to carry papers everywhere. If you drive and get pulled over or write a check, they ask for id. Use a credit card, better have ID. Get on a plane, better have ID. Who is just out and about without ID. If a cop pulls you over and you dont have your license, they can look it up. Does anyone not know there license number? How about their home address? Don't worry if you are voting, though. There is one place they dont ask for ID. Interesting, huh? BTW: Any cop can pull you over for whatever reason now. It happens before this law came about. Sheriff Joe has been using the federal law for three years and have had 3 cases go to court. I believe two were thrown out as frivilous. Seems it has been working so far.

Malcontent
04-28-2010, 08:19 PM
It gives authority to pull someone over for doing nothing at all (other than being mexican). You want to live in a police state?

You are full of shiat!

Tombstone RJ
04-28-2010, 08:19 PM
Hey look! It's working.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100429/ap_on_re_us/us_immigration_day_labor_3

Wow, that didn't take long.

broncocalijohn
04-28-2010, 08:21 PM
Hey look! It's working.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100429/ap_on_re_us/us_immigration_day_labor_3

as much as I like the law, you know they are coming to California! Hopefully, they will get the memo that Gavin Newsome and SF love the illegal aliens and will take them in personally. Time for a split of California of SF and Bay area North to the coast down to LA. OC/SD/IE/SB and up to Lake Tahoe will be the new and improved California.

mkporter
04-28-2010, 08:22 PM
The federal government has assumed on itself the charge of upholding the rights of citizens as afforded by the constitution. We know full well that the federal government are not fulfilling their responsibility to their people by following through on laws in place. By allowing criminals activity to increase exponentially on the border, the federal government has itself allowed the conditions for that criminal environment to exist.

States are fed up. Expect Texas, New Mexico, and even California to produce similar law in the near future. Now that Arizona has led the way, other states will follow suit.

Border states should form a Border Security Coalition to get proper resolution on this issue. The rest of the country obviously doesnt care that border states are being destroyed by this (ahem, California). Border states will have to go it alone or see quality of life decrease dramatically.

The federal government has created laws that address the rights afforded to you in the constitution. Poor enforcement of these laws, while regrettable, is not a rights violation.

Which other parts of the constitution are you cool with your state taking away to theoretically improve your security? Maybe we shouldn't be able to protest about immigration laws we don't like because it encourages illegals? Or maybe guns should be outlawed entirely so illegals can't shoot you. Where do you think the line should be? Your responses so far indicate that you are okay with states stripping away your protections in the bill of rights.

BTW- California is in crap shape for many other reasons besides illegal immigration.

StugotsIII
04-28-2010, 08:24 PM
So...one US state will be financially hurting another US state all for wanting to keep illegal immigrants from bleeding that state an this country financially?

Folks, we gotta stop being pussies and knock off the PC bull****.

Millions of these people break our laws an sponge off US taxpayers.

Enough.

Malcontent
04-28-2010, 08:27 PM
So...one US state will be financially hurting another US state all for wanting to keep illegal immigrants from bleeding that state an this country financially?

Folks, we gotta stop being pussies and knock off the PC bull****.

Millions of these people break our laws an sponge off US taxpayers.

Enough.

F**K Yea!!! Thank you Stu!!

mkporter
04-28-2010, 08:30 PM
You need to carry papers everywhere. If you drive and get pulled over or write a check, they ask for id. Use a credit card, better have ID. Get on a plane, better have ID. Who is just out and about without ID. If a cop pulls you over and you dont have your license, they can look it up. Does anyone not know there license number? How about their home address? Don't worry if you are voting, though. There is one place they dont ask for ID. Interesting, huh? BTW: Any cop can pull you over for whatever reason now. It happens before this law came about. Sheriff Joe has been using the federal law for three years and have had 3 cases go to court. I believe two were thrown out as frivilous. Seems it has been working so far.

Here's the distinction: Getting on a plane, using a credit card, writing a check are all voluntary exercises. A cop cannot pull you over without reasonable suspicion of a traffic violation. And then he can only check that you are licensed to drive (again, a voluntary exercise). Also, a drivers license is not sufficient to prove immigration status. You'd also need your birth certificate. You carry that around with you? This law allows an officer to require you to show your papers for no other reason than being brown.

broncocalijohn
04-28-2010, 08:35 PM
Here's the distinction: Getting on a plane, using a credit card, writing a check are all voluntary exercises. A cop cannot pull you over without reasonable suspicion of a traffic violation. And then he can only check that you are licensed to drive (again, a voluntary exercise). Also, a drivers license is not sufficient to prove immigration status. You'd also need your birth certificate. You carry that around with you? This law allows an officer to require you to show your papers for no other reason than being brown.

that is the scare tactic. I already told you how long Sheriff Joe has been inforcing the law and how many civil rights lawsuits have been brought forth. Of course every civil rights lawyer will be getting their state bar in AZ so they can pump up their commercials in between the equivalent of Jerry Springer in Espanol. In AZ, you have to be a citizen to have a driver's license. If they check the license and it comes up clean, they are not going to ask for a birth certificate.

Tombstone RJ
04-28-2010, 08:45 PM
Here's the distinction: Getting on a plane, using a credit card, writing a check are all voluntary exercises. A cop cannot pull you over without reasonable suspicion of a traffic violation. And then he can only check that you are licensed to drive (again, a voluntary exercise). Also, a drivers license is not sufficient to prove immigration status. You'd also need your birth certificate. You carry that around with you? This law allows an officer to require you to show your papers for no other reason than being brown.

What about a work visa? Can you not carry that around? If someone is not hear illegally, what do they have to be afraid of? If it causes some legals a major inconvinience, perhaps the state can compensate the person financially for their time? I think that would be fair. If you are detained for a few hours then you get a check from the state. Why would that not work?

People are making a big deal of racial profiling and rightly so. That being said, if your not here illegally than you have no worries. If, for example, a legal immigrant gets detained by mistake, then that person can be issued a card saying they are a legal citizen and be compensated by the state for the inconvenience. Now, the state has a record and the legal immigrant has proof plus compensation.

If the state accidentally detains 5,000 people and compensate's each $25.00 for an hour of their time that's $125k out of the state budget.

Or, make it a whole lot more $ for the mistakes. This will dissuade law enforcement from being overzeaulous.

Seriously, why wouldn't this work?

mkporter
04-28-2010, 08:50 PM
that is the scare tactic. I already told you how long Sheriff Joe has been inforcing the law and how many civil rights lawsuits have been brought forth. Of course every civil rights lawyer will be getting their state bar in AZ so they can pump up their commercials in between the equivalent of Jerry Springer in Espanol. In AZ, you have to be a citizen to have a driver's license. If they check the license and it comes up clean, they are not going to ask for a birth certificate.

Sheriff Joe is one guy who covers a limited area. This law requires all cops to pursue immigration violations. That is a big difference.

Driver's license doesn't cut it:
"THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c)."

You could get a license on a 6 mo work visa that has since expired, or have an out of state license.

Maybe the law makes an improvement in the illegal immigration problem, but IMO, the ends don't justify the means. I'm guessing that many of the people that like this law get pretty pissed about a lot of gun control laws, and people refusing to print pictures of Mohammed, but for some reason they don't care about the 4th amendment. I don't get it.

Tombstone RJ
04-28-2010, 08:53 PM
Sheriff Joe is one guy who covers a limited area. This law requires all cops to pursue immigration violations. That is a big difference.

Driver's license doesn't cut it:
"THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c)."

You could get a license on a 6 mo work visa that has since expired, or have an out of state license.

Maybe the law makes an improvement in the illegal immigration problem, but IMO, the ends don't justify the means. I'm guessing that many of the people that like this law get pretty pissed about a lot of gun control laws, and people refusing to print pictures of Mohammed, but for some reason they don't care about the 4th amendment. I don't get it.

Constitutional rights protect legal citizens. If your not a legal citizen, the law should not apply to you. How can constitutional rights apply to citizens of other countries?

mkporter
04-28-2010, 08:54 PM
What about a work visa? Can you not carry that around? If someone is not hear illegally, what do they have to be afraid of? If it causes some legals a major inconvinience, perhaps the state can compensate the person financially for their time? I think that would be fair. If you are detained for a few hours then you get a check from the state. Why would that not work?

People are making a big deal of racial profiling and rightly so. That being said, if your not here illegally than you have no worries. If, for example, a legal immigrant gets detained by mistake, then that person can be issued a card saying they are a legal citizen and be compensated by the state for the inconvenience. Now, the state has a record and the legal immigrant has proof plus compensation.

If the state accidentally detains 5,000 people and compensate's each $25.00 for an hour of their time that's $125k out of the state budget.

Or, make it a whole lot more $ for the mistakes. This will dissuade law enforcement from being overzeaulous.

Seriously, why wouldn't this work?

Because when you detained someone, you caused them to miss the birth of a child, a big job interview, or any number of things worth more than $25 an hour. You know, like your dignity.

Killericon
04-28-2010, 08:57 PM
Wow. Easily the most overlooked part of this story.

An estimated 100,000 illegal immigrants have left Arizona in the past two years as it cracked down on illegal immigration and its economy was especially hard hit by the Great Recession. A Department of Homeland Security report on illegal immigrants estimates Arizona's illegal immigrant population peaked in 2008 at 560,000, and a year later dipped to 460,000.

So, they were already having success...Yet still needed to resort to draconian measures?

StugotsIII
04-28-2010, 08:59 PM
Wow. Easily the most overlooked part of this story.



So, they were already having success...Yet still needed to resort to draconian measures?



Goal Number=0

Tombstone RJ
04-28-2010, 09:01 PM
Because when you detained someone, you caused them to miss the birth of a child, a big job interview, or any number of things worth more than $25 an hour. You know, like your dignity.

Ok, whatever. I'm sure you know all about lost dignity.

epicSocialism4tw
04-28-2010, 09:02 PM
Hey look! It's working.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100429/ap_on_re_us/us_immigration_day_labor_3

Well, its working for Arizona, but they'll just come to Texas.

That's why all the border states need to be unified with a common legislation.

epicSocialism4tw
04-28-2010, 09:05 PM
Wow. Easily the most overlooked part of this story.

So, they were already having success...Yet still needed to resort to draconian measures?

Draconian? Ha!

Do you even know what that means?

Killericon
04-28-2010, 09:29 PM
Draconian? Ha!

Do you even know what that means?

Draconian, meaning particularly harsh law or rule.

Yeah, I know what it means. So I studied greek history, what's it to you?

Tombstone RJ
04-28-2010, 10:01 PM
Draconian, meaning particularly harsh law or rule.

Yeah, I know what it means. So I studied greek history, what's it to you?

Are you Canadian?